EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 27,696 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(clears throat) Okay. (claps) Hello,…
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat) Okay. (claps) Hello, Andy.
- ANAndy Ngo
Hi, Mr. Rogan. Thanks for having me on.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. How you doing, man? You're all healed up?
- ANAndy Ngo
The bruising and swelling has gone down, as you can see, but the more serious injury was to the brain.
- JRJoe Rogan
You have a serious injury to your brain?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, brain hemorrhage.
- JRJoe Rogan
What happ- From what?
- ANAndy Ngo
The mob beating, so they were-
- JRJoe Rogan
From getting hit in the head, you got a brain hemorrhage?
- ANAndy Ngo
Multiple times.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ANAndy Ngo
Contusions. Yes. They were bashing me on the back of my head and to my eyes. Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
But w- so how do you know you had brain hemorrhaging, and how are you able to just walk around?
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, I was taken to... I started losing my balance after the beating.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ANAndy Ngo
There was no police. I made it, uh, to the courthouse, sat down on the ground. Ambulance was called. I had to walk back to the ambulance because the streets were... or walk back to the police precinct in the direction of the mob. The medics that were associated with the Portland police let me know that they, um... that I needed to walk in that direction. It was quite shocking 'cause it was, um... I had just been a victim of this mob beating, and then now they're telling me to walk back in the direction of, uh, the Sun Trail Precinct where the beating had happened.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did they not know that you had been beaten up? Well, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's set this up for people-
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
... who are, are new to this and don't understand what happened. Um, I've been aware of you because of... You had written for Quillette, right? And, uh, you had become one of these, for whatever reason, controversial online journalists. And, uh, you covered Antifa quite a bit, and you covered a lot of, uh, the radical left. You were in Portland. And, uh, what was the exact rally that was going on? What was it called? Does... Did it have a name?
- ANAndy Ngo
Uh, it was something like Protect Portland. So it was organized by Rose City Antifa and its allies. And by its allies, I rem- I'm referring to the local chapter of the Democratic Socialists America came out to support them in numbers.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what are they protecting Portland from?
- ANAndy Ngo
They allege, uh, fascists.
- JRJoe Rogan
Fascists.
- ANAndy Ngo
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But just in general? I mean, is there, like, a particular thing they're worried about?
- ANAndy Ngo
There were two right-wing events happening that day that they were counter-demonstrating against. There was a... on one si- um, part... one part of downtown, the Proud Boys were holding a flag-waving event. That was completely n- uh, peaceful. There was no actually-
- JRJoe Rogan
Flag-waving? American flag-waving?
- ANAndy Ngo
Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ANAndy Ngo
Um, and a lot of Portland has found that provocative and, uh, a manifestation of, uh, fascistic violence. And in another part of downtown, there was a men's rights activist who was holding, um, a rally, uh, uh... sh- it was titled for dome- for victims of domestic terrorism. It was an anti-Antifa event.
- 15:00 – 30:00
You asked about the…
- JRJoe Rogan
wearing a costume. You're, you're dressed in all black with gloves on and a face mask and you're hitting people with a bike lock. Like, what, what is that about? Well, what that's about is you're getting away with being anonymous and you're getting support from all these other people around you. There's this mob mentality that takes place that's well-documented with humans where when you get a group of people together and there's another group and it's like... It's a tribal warfare type situation, and that's what you're seeing with Antifa. And the fact that the Portland Police have... I don't know what's going on with them, whether they've been told to not handle that, but the fact they haven't done anything to mitigate this is fucking, uh... It's, it's embarrassing. It's, it's a shame. It's, it's terrible. It really is. Uh, it's a tra- it's a travesty.
- ANAndy Ngo
You asked about the mayor earlier and, and if he issued any stand-down orders. There's a statement that was put out after I was attacked by the... by Daryl Turner, who's the president of the police union, and he said very clearly, he called for the mayor to remove the handcuffs, "handcuffs" of law enforcement so they can enforce the law. And he accused the mayor of politicizing the police department.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is this mayor popular?
- ANAndy Ngo
No, he's not. He's hated, well, by moderates because of the things that he allows to happen in the city, but the far-left hate him as well. They view him as not radical enough.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Why... Uh, w- why are they mad at you? Is it just the articles that you've written? Because somebody told me that you had been accused of doxing people. Is that true?
- ANAndy Ngo
Absolutely not true. So this is such an outrageous defamatory claim. So what happened was, uh, on May Day at that riot, there was... One of the Antifa women, uh, had charged in to participate in the fight during the r- brawl, and one of the right-wing person, he was wearing a mask, I don't know who he was, allegedly had, uh, hit her on her head, near her head, on her neck, somewhere like that. She was knocked out. I recognized this woman from her activism that day as the person who, um, sabotaged the sound equipment when James Damore came to Portland State in February of last year. That was an event that I was involved in organizing at, uh, Portland State University.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we should just explain to people, James Damore is the author of the Google memo that was talking about women in tech that was, uh, w- wildly misrepresented what he had said, and, uh, people had claimed that he was this awful sexist. Even the CEO of YouTube said that he enforced harmful gender stereotypes where... while he was citing, um, evolutionary psychology and, uh, uh, citing all these different studies on why women gravitate towards particular fields, and even a page and a half encouraging, uh, or strategy to... stra- strategies to encourage more women to get into tech. But it was basically in response to things that Google had written...... about dealing with the lack of women in tech, what, what is the problem here? They were looking for, uh, pr- for a very particular answer, which was sexism. And he was saying, "Well, it actually has more to do with the choices that women sort of naturally tend to gravitate towards." And he was saying that there was a way to prob- possibly encourage women to get into technology and he devised these strategies to do so, but was wildly misrepresented. And he... if you meet the guy, and I've had him on the podcast, he is a soft-spoken sweetheart of a guy. He's not a m- not a misogynist, not a mean-spirited person. He was merely looking at the results of studies and he was looking at real raw data, and that this real tendency that certain people have to gravitate towards certain positions in life.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, so there were so many misconceptions about James Damore, which is why, uh, the student group I was involved in was... invited him to come. But antifa and their allies just could not take that. They tried to shut down the event, they tried to get it canceled. And at that event, this one woman, she, uh, damaged the sound equipment as she was trying to shut it down. She pulled all these cords out and pushed the soundboard on the ground, it broke.
- JRJoe Rogan
Geez.
- ANAndy Ngo
So I recognized her from that day. She was named in the media, um, and then, uh, on May Day, I recognized her. So I named her, I said, "This is the name of the woman who was knocked out. I recognize her from, uh, the James Damore event, uh, protest where she had damaged equipment." And antifa had spun that around as me doxing her, um... That's not doxing. Doxing is where you release people's personal details such as where they work, where they live, their phone numbers with the... so that people will-
- JRJoe Rogan
You identified her?
- ANAndy Ngo
I named her, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, okay.
- ANAndy Ngo
But she had been identified in the media before. She was a big local activist.
- JRJoe Rogan
So that's basically it, other than you writing these stories criticizing their behavior. What's disturbing to me, beyond disturbing, was legitimate journalists that were making excuses for why you got beat up. And people saying things like, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." I saw stuff like that, that... "Pick a better hobby," I saw a guy write that. You know, "Anti-fascists will rule," you know, "Portland's not your place." I saw all this crazy shit from people with blue check marks that were saying that this is what happens when you support fascism. And I, I was so baffled by this, like, I read some of your stuff, I haven't read all of it, admittedly, but I've read some of your stuff. None of it came off as you supporting fascism. It came off as you maybe, at the worst case scenario, being a contrarian and not wanting to go with this sort of left-wing ideology that is m- so widespread throughout the Pacific Northwest, but I di- I didn't see any... W- I mean, first of all, y- you're not a white guy, we should explain to people. You are Vietnamese and, you know, you're what they would consider a member of a protected class. You're not just a minority. Uh, you're openly gay. You're, you mean, you're, you're... uh, what, what do you consider yourself politically?
- ANAndy Ngo
I've been avoiding labels for a while. I think, um, it's interesting that the lot of the coverage on what happened to me always qualified my j- um, who I am as, like, a conservative journalist or whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the worst thing is the way they labeled Quillete. They w- said you work for far-right, uh, newspaper or magazine Quillete, which is not the case at all. That's not true.
- ANAndy Ngo
I think the subtle... I mean, the dog whistles that they're trying to say in there that this person deserved it. And of course-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... these are the same people who always talk about believe the victim. They were the ones-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... who jumped on to believe Jussie Smollett, um, but, uh, I guess I was the wrong type of victim.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's... yeah, exactly, because even though you are... uh, you're... you seem like a very nice person, you aren't doing anything violent, you, you're supporting the wrong thing or not supporting them. Not supporting... not just blindly supporting what antifa's involved with, which is what... I mean, that is what fascism is. I mean, c- if- you, you can't even question some of the more heinous things that... I mean, clearly heinous things they're doing, just fucking macing people in the audience. Macing people in the crowd, just pointing it at people, yelling and screaming, hitting each other with things when they're... when you're wearing masks, getting involved in these brawls. It's so fucking stupid. It's so stupid to watch. It's like this is base human behavior in its worst example. And the fact that this dumbass fucking mayor thinks that this is a good idea to let this play itself out, this is how people get shot, this is how people die. When you allow a certain amount of violence and when you condone or don't do anything with violence that you can't defend, like violence against a person like yourself... I saw those guys hitting you in the back of the head, throwing milkshakes at you while you try... just trying to walk away. You weren't doing anything.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, you, you asked me at the beginning, how did I get the, the brain hemorrhage? So the video that's gone viral out there is actually the second half of the beating. I don't know if there's video of the first half. Hopefully, um, there is through CCTV or something, but the first... there were more hits to my face and my head. And so, uh, when I went to the hospital, uh, because of the nature of the contusions on my head, they did a CT scan in the, um, in the ER and that confirmed the subarachnoid hemorrhage.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what started it? What, what was the in-... why'd you get hit?
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay. 29th of June, okay? Uh, that would be t- 10, 11 days ago f- from now. And so there was that demonstration happening, antifa was rallying to oppose the far right, they claim, oppose fascists.I came, was excited to use my new GoPro. I was a bit nervous, um, speaking, um, I... Going to the event I was nervous because I'd been targeted just, um, two months earlier, right? Uh, I left my house with a helmet, got in my car, saw briefly my-
- JRJoe Rogan
You wore, you wore a helmet?
- ANAndy Ngo
I had a hel- l- I did have one. I saw a reflection of myself, took it off, decided I don't want anybody there to get the impression that I came... 'cause they already accused me of being a Nazi and far right and white supremacist. I didn't want any of them to then perceive me by the fact that I came with a helmet-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can-
- ANAndy Ngo
... as possibly a combatant. So I left it at home.
- 30:00 – 45:00
I think it's fair…
- JRJoe Rogan
that you're being inundated with Nazis and white supremacists and that this is all necessary. Like that old man that was just driving and they're directing traffic and forcing him to o- obey them and then when he doesn't want to, they chase after him and assault him. It's fucking bananas. And the fact that this city has not stepped in and recognized that they have a real problem because this has got momentum behind it...And the people that are involved that are non-violent, you gotta speak up. They've gotta speak up. If you're a person that really believes that there shouldn't be homophobia and there shouldn't be violence and there shouldn't be white supremacy, good for you. You probably got involved in this for all the right reasons. But if you don't recognize that someone like you, yourself, who is a person of, uh, a different ethnicity, you're not a white person, you're Vietnamese, you're a gay man, and you got assaulted for no reason. You didn't do anything. I mean, it's almost like a test of where do your values truly lie? And if you think it's okay for a person like you to just get assaulted for no reason, you are the problem. You're the problem. Your mindset is the problem. It's not whether or not there should be white supremacy. Of course, there shouldn't be. It's not whether or not there shouldn't be, uh, people b- be able to freely express themselves. Of course, there should be. That is not what the issue is. What the issue is, is group mob mentality, when you get people together and you let them wear masks and you t- tell them that they're fighting against some evil, and then they feel justified in hitting a person like you. It, it is really sickening. And there's this diffusion of responsibility thing that happens when one person hits you and everybody feels like it's okay to hit you. It's a mob mentality thing, and it's, it is extremely common with human beings. I, I've been in mob situations. It's terrifying 'cause you feel it in the air. You feel the chaos in the air when you're in some sort of a, a, a large scale brawl type situation, like anything can happen. People just run up on people and start punching them. It's not like two people alone in a, in a, in a, like, an open area where they can talk and work things out. No, it's chaos. And there's some weird animal activity, there's some weir- weird animal instinct aspect to it that is very unique to humans. And when you see something like this and see a guy like you just getting peppered with milkshakes and punched in the head, and... It's fucking disturbing. And for these people to dismiss that and not stand out, not stand up and say, "Hey, this is not what we're supposed to be about, this is not what I signed up for," they become a part of the problem. I'm sure there's people listening to this that are upset at this, because maybe you, you, you support Antifa, you support their ideology. Think about what you actually support. Think about what this is really all about. What you shouldn't be supporting is people wearing masks running around fucking hitting people. You ain't changing shit with that. All you're gonna do is call for more people with masks from the other side. If people feel like right-wing people are being attacked, and, and I don't think you're even right-wing. Are you? I mean, what are... What, would you, if you had a gun to your head or a mace to your face (laughs) , what would you, would you say you're a centrist? What would you say?
- ANAndy Ngo
I think it's fair to describe me as center-right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Center-right, okay. Which is fine. It should be okay. I mean, there should, we should, uh, be allowed to have disagreements of ideologies and of political persuasions, political, um, leanings. But this is, it's twisted. And it's twisted the way it's being depicted in the media. It's very strange how it's being dismissed. It's very strange in that there's really people in 2019 debating whether or not it's okay to assault journalists. It's fucking madness.
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, we've been seeing the build-up to this for years. People... Political violence coming from the left is, is seen as moral. And unfortunately, even those working in mainstream media have at times excused or found that type of violence good. I'm thinking of Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon at CNN.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
And I wonder if that played a role in why they were the only, uh, center-left, um, broadcast, um, news station, news network to invite me on to speak. Um, no other left-of-center media has invited me on, um, to any of those shows.
- JRJoe Rogan
And when they had you on to speak, what was their attitude about all this? I haven't seen-
- ANAndy Ngo
I think the host was very, um, respectful and fair.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who, who hosted? Who was it?
- ANAndy Ngo
Um, John Brennan, I think.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you think they were respectful and fair. Um, did it bother you that people like Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon had openly supported Antifa?
- ANAndy Ngo
It did. It, I mean, it enc- th- this is, was, kind of encouraged me to continue doing my work, um, months ago, uh, even last year when I was getting threatened, because it seemed like... I don't think Chris or Don actually underst- I think they're ignorant about Antifa.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think you're right.
- ANAndy Ngo
You know, they fall and they believe the, the propaganda about them that it's just an anti-fascist movement. They-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the name im- it, by itself.
- ANAndy Ngo
Correct. I'm hoping that, like, even with my injuries, and some you, you can see, some you, you can't, um, I'm continuing to speak, force myself to do all these media engagements because I want the, the needle on the conversations about Antifa to, to, to move, to change. Like, this is not just a movement of people masking up and starting random violence on the streets. Like, the violence isn't just... It, it is not arbitrary. It's working towards their goal. It's a movement of violent, radical anarchists and communists, and they're agitating for political revolution. And violence is part of their modus operandi. It's not a bug, it's the future of what they do. So, I don't know if people recognize how dangerous this is, this movement. And the DHS, since 2016, has described some of Antifa's activities as domestic terrorist violence. So, the fact that they're able to openly, um, organize and recruit on social media is, it's baffling to me. I'm wondering, like...Th- there's such this huge blind spot for far left militancy, not just in mainstream media but also in big tech.
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you think this is because Trump is president and because so many people oppose Trump as president, that the idea of far left militancy is in op- in opposition to what they oppose? So, they feel like the, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
- ANAndy Ngo
That's exactly what it is, I think.
- JRJoe Rogan
It... (sighs) What... Eric Weinstein had a great point about this and he said that one of the real issues is the cowards of the left and the cowards of the right that are allowing the extremists to do the work for them. So, w- when people see someone like the Proud Boys running around attacking people... Even the Proud Boys, you have to realize, that... they started off as a joke. Like, when Gavin McInnes first came up with the idea of the Proud Boys, it was, it was literally a joke and it became an actual organization, uh, for fun. And then people joined it that didn't think it was a joke, and then people joined it and started taking it in a deeper and deeper direction. Then he event- eventually disavowed himself and, and ab- abandoned the group. You see the... I be- I bet you see the same thing with ANTIFA. I bet the idea initially was, "Hey, we see these tiki tor- torch-carrying assholes in Charlottesville. We see that guy with the car ran over the girl who was a protester and killed her." Like, "This fucking shit has gotta stop so we have to organize. We have to do something." And then what happens? You get people in masks and you get people justified and then you get people that support those people, and then you get the extremists. And the extremists who are not disavowed who are, who are not... The- there's no one speaking out against them from the left. There's no one saying, "Hey, this shit has gotta stop," because they want them to do their dirty work for them. They want them to push the envelope and push the agenda and get their dio- their ideology moving in the right direction, even if it's done through methods that they don't agree with. And that's where it gets horrible, because I see these people that are involved in this and I know for a fact, just by watching them move and interact with each other, they don't understand violence. They don't. They're not good at it, they don't understand it. They... this is like role playing. It's like cosplay. And you're gonna call for r- you're gonna get real violence in return, and from people who actually know how to do it. And if you look at violence f- from the left and violence from the right, violence from the right scares me a whole lot more. They're a lot more armed. They're... it's, it's... they're more dangerous human beings, i- in general. And I think that if this, this keeps happening and people from the right feel threatened and their lifestyle feels threatened and their ideologies feel threatened, you're gonna get people meeting at these things, and it's gonna be more than just people throwing mace and milkshakes at each other. It's going to be people showing up ready for actual combat. That's fucking terrifying. It's fucking terrifying. And this idea that you could just run around hitting people and not have any consequences, it's like a- the way a child looks at violence. This is what bothers me so much. If you are... if you looked at their core tenets of what they wanna do and if they wanted to accomplish that through political negotiation and through conversation and rallies and, and, and speeches, fine. That's fine. But when you have people wearing masks hitting and macing people, you've, you've pa- you've crossed the line into the land of no return and you've called out to people who oppose you. You've challenged them to come and do the same. And this is how violence begets greater violence. It's fucking dangerous. It's really dangerous. Violence does not exist in a vacuum. You can't just have a little bit of violence and then there's no repercussions. People react to that. There's people that watch those videos, watch you get punched, and there is no justification for that. When you see someone like yourself who's a small person, slight in stature, not violent in any way, and you're, you're not even swinging back, you're just taking it and trying to protect yourself. People get infuriated by that. And there's people right now, I guarantee you, who saw that video who are thinking, "What I would do if I was there? I'd fucking shoot all of 'em," or, "I'd beat 'em all to death with baseball bats," or, "I'd run 'em over with my car," or, "I'd do things..." And the unhinged amongst the right who feel like this is a- an opposition of their ideology, they're gonna show up someday. And when that happens, people are gonna die. This is fucking terrible and this is where the mayor and the police... and th- they've not done their job. And th- I believe the police, when they say that they've been handcuffed, and maybe the mayor just didn't have an idea of where this would all go, but now you do.
- ANAndy Ngo
This is a... the mayor has been in office now for three years and he finally did a press conference two days ago, nine days after my attack, to address this con- controversy, right? And what was so frustrating is that the, the, the police chief had, um, publicly stated that she thinks the city or the state should adopt a law that makes it illegal to wear a mask while committing a crime. That should be a no-brainer. It's shocking that in Portland-
- JRJoe Rogan
I got a better idea. How about n- not... you can't wear a mask in public at these events? 'Cause you can say, "You can't wear a mask while committing a crime." You're wearing a mask. How do you... who the fuck do you know committed the crime? Unless you take the mask off, then we can't even identify 'em. It's stupid. You can't wear a mask.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So this, you know, sounds like a, a baseline, somebody... a, a policy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... that you should start advocating for, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Like, don't kick babies.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. Well, the mayor said he hasn't decided if he supported it. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
He hasn't decided if he supported whether or not it should be illegal to wear a mask while you're committing a crime?
- ANAndy Ngo
Correct. Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's hilarious.
- ANAndy Ngo
And he had no policy proposals and he spoke as if, uh, like it was his first day in office when this was like... this is becoming routine now. It's almost banal in Portland and Portland is a, is a harbinger and a warning to what can happen in other cities when you have a r- a government, um, those in the upper echelons of governance turning a blind l- eye to far left militancy and just letting...... these thugs go on the street and beat people.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
(sighs) It's so f-…
- ANAndy Ngo
that's what they do, blind you, and then attack.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs) It's so f- it's so scary, 'cause it's so dumb. It's not just scary because, like, you watching what happened to you was scary, 'cause ... You know, and watching that old man who got hit in the head with a crowbar. It's fucking horrific. All that stuff's horrific. And apparently that guy had pulled out some sort of a rod and was swinging at people before he got hit with a crowbar. I do not know. But I do know, when you start hitting people in the head with crowbars, that is the beginning of the end. W- horrible, horrible shit happens in response to that. And it hasn't yet, but this is 10 days ago. W- who knows what's going to happen if there's another one of these rallies and you get people from the far right who organized. This is when the Proud Boys really radicalized. They radicalized to go against Antifa. They were attacked, they attacked them, and then it became this fucking shitshow that you're seeing right now.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. I, I want to state for the record, though, the, the violence that happened after I was beat up was involving the, the men's rights activist group and Antifa. Proud Boys was holding ... Uh, they held a separate event in a different part of the city. Uh, as far as I know, they did n- ... There was no, uh, conflict with any-
- JRJoe Rogan
In this, in this particular event?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, in this particular event.
- JRJoe Rogan
So who was the men's rights guy?
- ANAndy Ngo
It was actually a woman.
- JRJoe Rogan
A woman who's a men's rights person?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's hilarious. She must love dick. Right? If you had to guess? (slurps)
- ANAndy Ngo
No comment.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Sorry, I'm a comedian.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Couldn't help it. Um, you don't even have to say her name. So she's, she r- she organized this thing?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, I would say, um ... Here's the other thing. Uh, uh, you know, like, I ... My ... What needs to be stated as well about, I guess, the right wing movements that, um, are in Portland or come to Portland to do these events, there's an element of being a provocateur as well. But that should never, ever justify the violence, 'cause I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what ... E- explain what you mean by being a provocateur.
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, for example, holding, uh, an event in the middle of downtown, titling it, um, like any of, uh, "Justice for Victims of Domestic Terr- Terrorism" and then having a picture of Antifa, like, that is an in- ... You know, it's an inflammatory.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're inviting them, yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
It's an infla- ... You know, it, it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... causes a reaction. Um, so there's a ... You know, there's a m- ... There's an element of coming in and saying, "Let's enrage these, uh, lunatics on the far left," or whatever. Um, but at the same time, I want to make sure I state that just because somebody's a, a quote/unquote "provocateur" to his or her wo- ... In the words of their writing, that it's unfortunate that people now find that that's justification for you to react violently.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think, again, it's a small percentage of people that find it, this justification. When you look at the number of people that were there, what is it, thousands? Thousands of people? How many people actually engaged in violence?
- ANAndy Ngo
Small number, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Small number. That's the problem.
- ANAndy Ngo
It's important to note that they got morale from the crowd who were cheering them on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course. The cowards, the cowards who don't disavow this horrific action.
- ANAndy Ngo
They cheered them on, laughed, and clapped-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ANAndy Ngo
... as I was getting beaten. And then the other thing about the people showing up in numbers who don't engage in the violence is they per- ... They are like literal human shields. They dress the same, so they make it easy for the few violent militants to melt back into the crowd.
- JRJoe Rogan
Blend into the crowd. Right.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Yeah. …
- JRJoe Rogan
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's that? Is that another group?
- ANAndy Ngo
Patriot Prayer is one of the other right-wing movements in, uh, in and around Portland that have held pro-Trump events in town that Antifa comes to, to fight and oppose.
- JRJoe Rogan
And how do those turn out?
- ANAndy Ngo
They devolve into riots.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the police allow this?
- ANAndy Ngo
They allow it through their inaction.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. It's just, it's interesting to see a city that's gone so far off the rails like Portland in this regard with this issue. You know, when you see this inaction and what the consequences are and how it, how it happens, and particularly for a person like you, you, you physically see it, you personally see it. Um, are you gonna continue to do these things?... because it seems like you're obviously a target now.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. Um, when I was asked this, uh, in my interviews, uh, this week, last week, the, the, the response that I ... that comes to my mind right away is, of course, I'm going to continue doing it. I ... These people have threatened me before. I've been attacked before. I'm not going to be cowed. I'm going to continue. I won't be intimidated. But with the, the brain injury that they gave me, it's like, I can't continue doing it the same way as I did before and being naïve to think that police would actually uphold the rule of law. Um, they gave me a brain injury, and like, I never had one before, but I'm dealing with some cognitive and neurological issues that I will c-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like what?
- ANAndy Ngo
Memory issues. I have issues ... So I have upcoming physical the- ... neurophysical therapy as well as speech therapy. So, um, as much as, like, on the surface, I have improved a lot since the beating, there are some long-term consequences that I'm gonna have to work through. And, um, you know, I have ... To be honest, I have certain fears and anxieties of being in Portland. I've continued to receive threats, violent threats, and they've been reported to police. And just people promising to make sure next time that I won't even be able to walk away, that they will repeat what happened to me when they see me on the streets. So like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Have they caught the people that did this to you?
- ANAndy Ngo
So it's been 10 days now, more than 10 days since my beating. There have been no arrests. I don't know where the police are in their investigation. They haven't been keeping me informed.
- JRJoe Rogan
There was a photograph of someone they released.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So the Portland police released photos of, uh, potential suspects and asking for help in identifying. One was unmasked, two, two of them were masked. And, uh, I forgot to say earlier that in addition to the, the beating, they robbed me of my, my camera equipment. So that was my, my evidence for that day, and I tried so hard to hold onto it, but, um, I couldn't.
- JRJoe Rogan
What about you attending this with security? Have you thought about doing that?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So moving forward, um, once I feel well enough and once I'm cleared by the doctors, um, it may be worth it to cover these events, but with professional security. Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Gorillas. (laughs)
- ANAndy Ngo
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Big giant dudes.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Would they wear we- like armor? Like, what would you have? How far would you take this?
- ANAndy Ngo
I don't know. W- how far do you think I should take it?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't think you should go to those things anymore.
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it seems like you've been ... I mean, it is part of your job. You're a journalist, but it seems like you've been singled out and targeted, and it seems like they don't have any problem justifying attacking you and assaulting you. Uh, if I was gonna go, I'd bring the biggest, baddest dudes that I could find, and a bunch of them, and have them surround you, and have them protect you.
- ANAndy Ngo
What's that tell you about America that in 2019 I don't think it's America. ... that-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's-
- ANAndy Ngo
Well-
- 1:15:00 – 1:19:45
It's my real concern…
- ANAndy Ngo
Um, that's my real concern. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's my real concern as well. And you think this is particularly unique to Portland in the way they're- they're treating it and addressing it?
- ANAndy Ngo
I'm trying to think of comparable other cities that have had some of these issues. So for example, in San Jose in 2016, Trump supporters, when they were leaving a Trump rally were brutally assaulted by mobs of people. And then there was a- a lawsuit that was launched against the city for basically putting citizens in the way of danger. The way they were funneled outside of this event led them directly in front of, uh, these violent protestors who attacked them, you know, in those footage that, um, went viral that year. Since then, policing tactics have changed in San Jose as far as I know, and, you know, it involved a lawsuit. So like sometimes it takes lawsuits for the local government to start protecting people's civil rights. So right now, as bad as it is, it does seem confined to Portland. We haven't seen it, for example, in Berkeley, the type of, uh, violence as, um, in 2017 when Milo came. Like, you know, that hasn't been repeated, uh, uh, for a year and a half now. So, um, but it takes the political will of those in power to enforce the law, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
So you mentioned lawsuits. What lawsuits are you pursuing?
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, immediately right now, what I would like to see is the City of Portland carry out a full investigation and hold accountable all those who were involved in attacking me or aided in that as well. And then as the evidence, where the evidence leads, if this shows that there were, was dereliction of duty from those in power, then, you know, I- I reserve my judgment and my lawyer reserves judgment for, you know, uh, who, if anyone, gets sued at that point. But right now, I'm very focused on seeing that and putting pressure on the city to arrest people who are responsible and charge them and get convictions as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. And, and in closing, 'cause I know you gotta get outta here, is there a silver lining to any of this? I mean, do you think that perhaps your assault and the- the fact that the police didn't intervene is actually, uh, allowing people to understand the- the real significance of this, the real problem of this? That it's, this is a real issue, a- a- a gigantic one, in fact, that goes against the core tenets of value of free expression and- and the ability to gather and communicate safely in public?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. As hard as it was for me to see a silver lining when I was laying in hospital with so much pain, um, there is one, and that is that everybody paid attention to what happened to me. It was a big story. Even the mainstream liberal press could not ignore it. And I'm hoping that from that it goes beyond just being a headline, but forcing the national discourse to change on how it views and talks about Antifa. We'll see if that happens. I feel encouraged that we're beginning to see some cracks in the way that Antifa has been protected by sympathetic writers and journalists in those, in mainstream media. I mean, the fact that Keith Ellison deleted that photo that he shared a year ago, um, right after I was attacked, I think indicates that there's ... even he faces a certain pressure that it may not be good for a mainstream politician to so actively promote this movement. Um, and I hope it continues to move in that direction.
- JRJoe Rogan
If you had a crystal ball and you were looking at the future, what do you, what do you think you would see?
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, based on the press relea- uh, press conference that the mayor did two days ago, him, uh, not sure ... not having any proposals, um, it seems like more violence has to happen.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. Andy, I hope you're wrong.
- ANAndy Ngo
Me too.
- JRJoe Rogan
But, uh, thank you for being here.
- ANAndy Ngo
My pleasure.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right. Take it easy.
- ANAndy Ngo
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Stay safe out there, will ya?
- ANAndy Ngo
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Smile too. (laughs)
- ANAndy Ngo
(laughs)
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
Episode duration: 1:19:45
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