EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 27,696 words- 0:00 – 1:16
Andy Ngo’s injuries: brain hemorrhage after the Portland beating
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat) Okay. (claps) Hello, Andy.
- ANAndy Ngo
Hi, Mr. Rogan. Thanks for having me on.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. How you doing, man? You're all healed up?
- ANAndy Ngo
The bruising and swelling has gone down, as you can see, but the more serious injury was to the brain.
- JRJoe Rogan
You have a serious injury to your brain?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, brain hemorrhage.
- JRJoe Rogan
What happ- From what?
- ANAndy Ngo
The mob beating, so they were-
- JRJoe Rogan
From getting hit in the head, you got a brain hemorrhage?
- ANAndy Ngo
Multiple times.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ANAndy Ngo
Contusions. Yes. They were bashing me on the back of my head and to my eyes. Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
But w- so how do you know you had brain hemorrhaging, and how are you able to just walk around?
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, I was taken to... I started losing my balance after the beating.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ANAndy Ngo
There was no police. I made it, uh, to the courthouse, sat down on the ground. Ambulance was called. I had to walk back to the ambulance because the streets were... or walk back to the police precinct in the direction of the mob. The medics that were associated with the Portland police let me know that they, um... that I needed to walk in that direction. It was quite shocking 'cause it was, um... I had just been a victim of this mob beating, and then now they're telling me to walk back in the direction of, uh, the Sun Trail Precinct where the beating had happened.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did they not know that you had been beaten up? Well, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's set this up for people-
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay.
- 1:16 – 3:19
What rally was this? Setting up the ‘Protect Portland’ event and targets
- JRJoe Rogan
... who are, are new to this and don't understand what happened. Um, I've been aware of you because of... You had written for Quillette, right? And, uh, you had become one of these, for whatever reason, controversial online journalists. And, uh, you covered Antifa quite a bit, and you covered a lot of, uh, the radical left. You were in Portland. And, uh, what was the exact rally that was going on? What was it called? Does... Did it have a name?
- ANAndy Ngo
Uh, it was something like Protect Portland. So it was organized by Rose City Antifa and its allies. And by its allies, I rem- I'm referring to the local chapter of the Democratic Socialists America came out to support them in numbers.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what are they protecting Portland from?
- ANAndy Ngo
They allege, uh, fascists.
- JRJoe Rogan
Fascists.
- ANAndy Ngo
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
But just in general? I mean, is there, like, a particular thing they're worried about?
- ANAndy Ngo
There were two right-wing events happening that day that they were counter-demonstrating against. There was a... on one si- um, part... one part of downtown, the Proud Boys were holding a flag-waving event. That was completely n- uh, peaceful. There was no actually-
- JRJoe Rogan
Flag-waving? American flag-waving?
- ANAndy Ngo
Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ANAndy Ngo
Um, and a lot of Portland has found that provocative and, uh, a manifestation of, uh, fascistic violence. And in another part of downtown, there was a men's rights activist who was holding, um, a rally, uh, uh... sh- it was titled for dome- for victims of domestic terrorism. It was an anti-Antifa event.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ANAndy Ngo
So, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
A men's rights activist?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was doing an anti-fascist or anti-Antifa?
- ANAndy Ngo
Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what... Boy, it seems like a whole lot of do about nothing. Flag-waving and anti-Antifa. Okay. So-
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. C- Can I set the context for-
- JRJoe Rogan
Please.
- 3:19 – 4:43
Why Portland is a flashpoint: political monoculture and repeated impunity
- ANAndy Ngo
... for the city of Portland? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a mess.
- ANAndy Ngo
You have listeners and viewers all over the world. So Portland, Oregon is a extremely progressive city in the Pacific Northwest of the US, and, um, I call it a political monoculture 'cause really it's, um, uh, not just... You're more likely to find socialists, open socialists there than you would find, like, a regular, uh, Republican or conservative. And within this sort of echo chamber of just leftist politics, there's... it's become also a hotbed for far-left militancy. So Rose City Antifa is... you could call it, like, the local chapter or movement of Antifa. It's one of the oldest in the country. It's very large in Portland, and they hold, um, what you could call protests, but they, their, their protests that always devolve into riots where they essentially take over parts of downtown and attack people, attack their ideological opponents, and do it frequently with impunity. I mean, I wasn't the only one attacked that day. There were two other people who were bashed on the head very... and, and had very severe lacerations to the face and head. Um, you may recall the footage, uh, from October of last year when there was a elderly driver who was attacked on the streets.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. They were directing traffic, right?
- ANAndy Ngo
Exactly.
- 4:43 – 6:44
Police inaction and city leadership: stand-down dynamics and governance quirks
- JRJoe Rogan
And, and somehow or another, the mayor thought it was a good idea to let this take place. Is that the case? And they told the police to stand down. Is that true?
- ANAndy Ngo
So, um, I mean, the next part of this journey for me will be the legal aspect of it, and it seems like something stinks in Portland. The issue is really not with the rank-and-file officers. They're following orders to not intervene. So I, I had been, uh, assaulted and criminally harassed early- before the mob beating. People were throwing milkshakes at my face and head within eyesight of police who were watching in downtown, and both of these were reported. And the, the answer that I heard that day, as I've heard many times before when I've been assaulted by Antifa, is that, "We will not question, approach, or detain the suspect because this could incite the crowd."
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. So this is why this has exacerbated, or this is why this has become such a big deal in Portland, because of this attitude, because Portland seems to be the hotbed right now for this kind of stuff.
- ANAndy Ngo
It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that, is that fair to say?
- ANAndy Ngo
I think it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
So is this the mayor who... I mean, who is... who's the one who's giving the orders to the police to tell them to allow this stuff to take place?
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, um...... I'm crowdfunding for the legal fund right now and we are willing... we are going to hold accountable whoever is responsible for dereliction of duty, where the evidence leads us. So Portland has an odd governance system in that the mayor, who is up for re-election, by the way, is also the police commissioner. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- ANAndy Ngo
... yeah. Um.
- JRJoe Rogan
How the... how does that work?
- ANAndy Ngo
It, it was an old system that it inherited and it just didn't ever change.
- JRJoe Rogan
From the Wild West? Like, that sounds ridiculous.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, it d- it is ridiculous. You can see all the political conf- the conflicts and then conflicts of interest that that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ANAndy Ngo
... would arise, right?
- 6:44 – 9:54
How Andy became a target: journalism, media ‘blind spots,’ and early Antifa coverage
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah, shitload. Um, how did you get involved in this? Like what... why... first of all, why were they angry at you?
- ANAndy Ngo
I, uh, I work as a journalist. Uh, I'll name, like, places that I've been published before I write, and I do video and I do podcasts. So my written work has been published in The Wall Street Journal, The National Review, Spectator, New York Post. I'm also on the editorial team of Quillette magazine. Um, and one of my beats, among several, is about far left militancy, particularly in Portland. And to me, what I was noticing was that the national and local media coverage had a particular blind spot when it came to their coverage on Antifa. There was all this sensitivity to the quote unquote "far right" and, uh, white nationalism or, uh, white identity extremism. But they could not or would not recognize the militancy that was on the left, and Portland seemed to be one of the places for ground zero, particularly after 2016. We had very violent rioting in downtown that, um, a segment of the population could not accept the election results in November. And so, uh, they did a million dollars in damage, setting fires and, uh, destroying properties and businesses. And at that time, I was a graduate student working at the student paper and I did a story on that, and I came out to witness and it, it... you know, this was a major American city but it felt, uh, like I was in Afghanistan or Iraq just with all these fires and explosions and people running around with bats while masked up. And that was the first time I really became familiar with Antifa and I took an interest in it, and I saw over and over that the media coverage was basically really sort of whitewashing them, kinda like referring to them as anti-fascists, giving them that propaganda victory. And Antifa as a movement, they're masters of doublespeak and disinformation. So it g- it starts with the name. Antifa is short for anti-fascists, but I never refer to them as that 'cause, um, that's ceding the ground to, uh, to them. Uh, they... when they say that they are, uh, defending a community, self-defense, it actually is referring to me- premeditated violence and offensive violence. So I started going to... covering this more and more, you know, after I, I left the student paper. I started writing for, um, some national and international publications and there... internationally there was a w- m-... you know, a set of readers who were interested in, in what the hell is going on in Portland, why there are these continuous scenes of street brawls and anarchy over and over, what are the variables that are causing this. And I thought that I could try to shine a light on it, and by doing so, Antifa became enraged
- 9:54 – 16:23
Hate-crime hoax reporting and the May Day assault (bear mace)
- ANAndy Ngo
with my work, um, particularly things... they've hated me since last year, but they started really escalating, um, on, on the 1st of May, May Day, um, so this year, was when I was physically assaulted by them for the first time. They were very upset that I wrote a story for the New York Post where there was a series of... and this is one of the other beats that I work on is, uh, hate crime hoaxes. Um, Portland earlier this year had this huge panic over serious allegations of, uh, LGBT people claiming that there were marauding right-wing gangs driving around trying to kill people with bats, with hammers, trying to, uh, kidnap them, and these were all rumors that were reported on social media. It caused a huge frenzy. Even the mayor, uh, had to come out and, you know, issue a statement about how he was concerned. There was an emergency town hall with the, the local queer center and, um, so I started looking into all these allegations. There were 15 of them, and I found that of the 15, only one was reported to police and what was reported to police and documented in the report was entirely different from the GoFundMe where over $10,000 was raised for this trans activist. Um, she had alleged that one night walking home, transphobic people had beat her with a bat and knocked her unconscious. Police reports said that she was extremely intoxicated and likely fell, and there was no evidence that sh- anybody had assaulted her. So when I... this story came out because Antifa was really... Antifa and the Democratic Socialists of America in Portland were really involved in peddling this hate crime fear in Portland, and I just kinda, you know, threw water on this, this, uh, uh, panic that they had been, um, flaming. And so on the 1st of May, um, there was a riot that I was covering and one of the masked Antifa people went up...... and sprayed me with, I think it was bear mace, some type of chemical that blinds you and burns you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I saw that video.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So there was no police that h- that was there. That, I mean, that Antifa event was publicly advertised on Facebook and all that. So over and over, like Antifa is very transparent about their calls for people to come to their stuff and to engage in this physical confrontation that they call self-defense. And the police either stay away or... on purpose, or are told to stay away. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very confusing because when you watch the videos, they're, they're just macing people. They're macing people who disagree with them, like they're yelling at each other and then someone will come along and mace people. And for the police to not step in and do something, it's... I don't, I don't think there's another city in the country that would allow something like that. It just doesn't... It doesn't seem like it makes any sense at all because you're, you're not talking about people that are being physically attacked and that are macing someone to protect themselves, or even a threat of being physically attacked. They're just disagreeing with each other and yelling at each other, and then someone will come along and start macing people. And I've seen it many times, and I think there's also a real problem with people wearing masks. You know, whe- whether their ideology makes sense or not, when you put people in masks and then you have a bunch of people yelling and escalating, and then there's teams. There's Team Antifa versus team... You know, anybody opposing them, they feel, is a white supremacist or a Nazi. And this is just how they've chosen to frame it to dehumanize people, and then you see them attack people. I'm sure you're aware of the girl who got maced in the face because she had a hat on that said "Make Bitcoin Great Again," but it was the same color hat as the "Make America Great Again" hat, and she got maced in the face, and she got hit with something too, right? Didn't she get hit in the face with something? Anyway, this kind of shit is really weird. It's really weird and disturbing to see these young people with these ideal- idealistic versions of what they're doing. I think a lot of the people that are involved in that really think they are fighting fascism. They really do. They really think that Donald Trump and the Proud Boys and white supremacists from Charlottesville carrying tiki torches, that these people represent something horrible that's sweeping across the country and that young people today need to stand up and fight against this. And they're putting on masks and they're carrying backpacks and whacking people in the head with crowbars. It is really fucking weird to see, and it's really weird that the city of Portland, or all cities, in fact, haven't made some sort of a, a law where you can't walk around in public with a fucking mask on, because that is one of the things that helps these people. It's the same thing that you see on social media when people are anonymous and they say the most horrible, hateful shit. They're saying that because they're not in front of you. You can't recognize them, they don't have to take responsibility for what they're saying. This is a lot of the, the same characteristics that a person has when they're wearing a costume. You're, you're dressed in all black with gloves on and a face mask and you're hitting people with a bike lock. Like, what, what is that about? Well, what that's about is you're getting away with being anonymous and you're getting support from all these other people around you. There's this mob mentality that takes place that's well-documented with humans where when you get a group of people together and there's another group and it's like... It's a tribal warfare type situation, and that's what you're seeing with Antifa. And the fact that the Portland Police have... I don't know what's going on with them, whether they've been told to not handle that, but the fact they haven't done anything to mitigate this is fucking, uh... It's, it's embarrassing. It's, it's a shame. It's, it's terrible. It really is. Uh, it's a tra- it's a travesty.
- ANAndy Ngo
You asked about the mayor earlier and, and if he issued any stand-down orders. There's a statement that was put out after I was attacked by the... by Daryl Turner, who's the president of the police union, and he said very clearly, he called for the mayor to remove the handcuffs, "handcuffs" of law enforcement so they can enforce the law. And he accused the mayor of politicizing the police department.
- JRJoe Rogan
Is this mayor popular?
- ANAndy Ngo
No, he's not. He's hated, well, by moderates because of the things that he allows to happen in the city, but the far-left hate him as well. They view him as not radical enough.
- 16:23 – 23:15
The ‘doxxing’ accusation and the James Damore event backstory
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Why... Uh, w- why are they mad at you? Is it just the articles that you've written? Because somebody told me that you had been accused of doxing people. Is that true?
- ANAndy Ngo
Absolutely not true. So this is such an outrageous defamatory claim. So what happened was, uh, on May Day at that riot, there was... One of the Antifa women, uh, had charged in to participate in the fight during the r- brawl, and one of the right-wing person, he was wearing a mask, I don't know who he was, allegedly had, uh, hit her on her head, near her head, on her neck, somewhere like that. She was knocked out. I recognized this woman from her activism that day as the person who, um, sabotaged the sound equipment when James Damore came to Portland State in February of last year. That was an event that I was involved in organizing at, uh, Portland State University.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we should just explain to people, James Damore is the author of the Google memo that was talking about women in tech that was, uh, w- wildly misrepresented what he had said, and, uh, people had claimed that he was this awful sexist. Even the CEO of YouTube said that he enforced harmful gender stereotypes where... while he was citing, um, evolutionary psychology and, uh, uh, citing all these different studies on why women gravitate towards particular fields, and even a page and a half encouraging, uh, or strategy to... stra- strategies to encourage more women to get into tech. But it was basically in response to things that Google had written...... about dealing with the lack of women in tech, what, what is the problem here? They were looking for, uh, pr- for a very particular answer, which was sexism. And he was saying, "Well, it actually has more to do with the choices that women sort of naturally tend to gravitate towards." And he was saying that there was a way to prob- possibly encourage women to get into technology and he devised these strategies to do so, but was wildly misrepresented. And he... if you meet the guy, and I've had him on the podcast, he is a soft-spoken sweetheart of a guy. He's not a m- not a misogynist, not a mean-spirited person. He was merely looking at the results of studies and he was looking at real raw data, and that this real tendency that certain people have to gravitate towards certain positions in life.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, so there were so many misconceptions about James Damore, which is why, uh, the student group I was involved in was... invited him to come. But antifa and their allies just could not take that. They tried to shut down the event, they tried to get it canceled. And at that event, this one woman, she, uh, damaged the sound equipment as she was trying to shut it down. She pulled all these cords out and pushed the soundboard on the ground, it broke.
- JRJoe Rogan
Geez.
- ANAndy Ngo
So I recognized her from that day. She was named in the media, um, and then, uh, on May Day, I recognized her. So I named her, I said, "This is the name of the woman who was knocked out. I recognize her from, uh, the James Damore event, uh, protest where she had damaged equipment." And antifa had spun that around as me doxing her, um... That's not doxing. Doxing is where you release people's personal details such as where they work, where they live, their phone numbers with the... so that people will-
- JRJoe Rogan
You identified her?
- ANAndy Ngo
I named her, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, okay.
- ANAndy Ngo
But she had been identified in the media before. She was a big local activist.
- JRJoe Rogan
So that's basically it, other than you writing these stories criticizing their behavior. What's disturbing to me, beyond disturbing, was legitimate journalists that were making excuses for why you got beat up. And people saying things like, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." I saw stuff like that, that... "Pick a better hobby," I saw a guy write that. You know, "Anti-fascists will rule," you know, "Portland's not your place." I saw all this crazy shit from people with blue check marks that were saying that this is what happens when you support fascism. And I, I was so baffled by this, like, I read some of your stuff, I haven't read all of it, admittedly, but I've read some of your stuff. None of it came off as you supporting fascism. It came off as you maybe, at the worst case scenario, being a contrarian and not wanting to go with this sort of left-wing ideology that is m- so widespread throughout the Pacific Northwest, but I di- I didn't see any... W- I mean, first of all, y- you're not a white guy, we should explain to people. You are Vietnamese and, you know, you're what they would consider a member of a protected class. You're not just a minority. Uh, you're openly gay. You're, you mean, you're, you're... uh, what, what do you consider yourself politically?
- ANAndy Ngo
I've been avoiding labels for a while. I think, um, it's interesting that the lot of the coverage on what happened to me always qualified my j- um, who I am as, like, a conservative journalist or whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, the worst thing is the way they labeled Quillete. They w- said you work for far-right, uh, newspaper or magazine Quillete, which is not the case at all. That's not true.
- ANAndy Ngo
I think the subtle... I mean, the dog whistles that they're trying to say in there that this person deserved it. And of course-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... these are the same people who always talk about believe the victim. They were the ones-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... who jumped on to believe Jussie Smollett, um, but, uh, I guess I was the wrong type of victim.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's... yeah, exactly, because even though you are... uh, you're... you seem like a very nice person, you aren't doing anything violent, you, you're supporting the wrong thing or not supporting them. Not supporting... not just blindly supporting what antifa's involved with, which is what... I mean, that is what fascism is. I mean, c- if- you, you can't even question some of the more heinous things that... I mean, clearly heinous things they're doing, just fucking macing people in the audience. Macing people in the crowd, just pointing it at people, yelling and screaming, hitting each other with things when they're... when you're wearing masks, getting involved in these brawls. It's so fucking stupid. It's so stupid to watch. It's like this is base human behavior in its worst example. And the fact that this dumbass fucking mayor thinks that this is a good idea to let this play itself out, this is how people get shot, this is how people die. When you allow a certain amount of violence and when you condone or don't do anything with violence that you can't defend, like violence against a person like yourself... I saw those guys hitting you in the back of the head, throwing milkshakes at you while you try... just trying to walk away. You weren't doing anything.
- 23:15 – 25:10
Step-by-step account of the June 29 ambush and why the viral clip is ‘half the beating’
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, you, you asked me at the beginning, how did I get the, the brain hemorrhage? So the video that's gone viral out there is actually the second half of the beating. I don't know if there's video of the first half. Hopefully, um, there is through CCTV or something, but the first... there were more hits to my face and my head. And so, uh, when I went to the hospital, uh, because of the nature of the contusions on my head, they did a CT scan in the, um, in the ER and that confirmed the subarachnoid hemorrhage.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what started it? What, what was the in-... why'd you get hit?
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay. 29th of June, okay? Uh, that would be t- 10, 11 days ago f- from now. And so there was that demonstration happening, antifa was rallying to oppose the far right, they claim, oppose fascists.I came, was excited to use my new GoPro. I was a bit nervous, um, speaking, um, I... Going to the event I was nervous because I'd been targeted just, um, two months earlier, right? Uh, I left my house with a helmet, got in my car, saw briefly my-
- JRJoe Rogan
You wore, you wore a helmet?
- ANAndy Ngo
I had a hel- l- I did have one. I saw a reflection of myself, took it off, decided I don't want anybody there to get the impression that I came... 'cause they already accused me of being a Nazi and far right and white supremacist. I didn't want any of them to then perceive me by the fact that I came with a helmet-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can-
- ANAndy Ngo
... as possibly a combatant. So I left it at home.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you be a Vietnamese white supremacist? Is that possible?
- ANAndy Ngo
In their eyes? Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hilarious.
- ANAndy Ngo
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ANAndy Ngo
I mean, this goes to the, the bigger issue that I've taken issue with how flippant people use these accusations-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... of not just racist or being Nazi or far right, but it's like what... part of what makes Antifa so dangerous is that they feel that they are morally justified in their brutality.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- 25:10 – 40:52
Mainstreaming violence: ‘nonviolent’ supporters, masks, and moral justification
- ANAndy Ngo
And they get actually a lot of morale from progressive and left-wing media. So, um, after talking about what the attack, I would like to talk about how the actual militant Antifa people is very... is small. Those who are going out and doing the violence. The larger group and those that I find more concerning actually are the nonviolent Interf- Antifa.
- JRJoe Rogan
You find those more concerning?
- ANAndy Ngo
Beca-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why?
- ANAndy Ngo
Because they work to mainstream Antifa's tactics and ideas. Like now, doxing by Antifa is not even... is kind of seen as, "Well, these people deserve it." Um, like, do people not realize, like when you're doxed and your, people's, you know, releasing your address has happened to me, your family's address out, it, it puts this constant state of fear in you, even when you're in your own home. Like, th- I don't know if they realize that. Um, so there's the doxing and then of course, you know, the punch, the Nazi meme was meant to be cute and funny. Um, but when they label such a large segment of the population as Nazis, it's, it's going after a lot of people who, um, are innocent and law-abiding, such as myself. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, they're also calling Jewish people Nazis-
- ANAndy Ngo
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... which is insane. I mean-
- ANAndy Ngo
And then now more recently, the, the milk shaking was seen as this cute non-violent form of political dissent. As you saw in the video, after I was getting beaten, I was trying to get away and then they were pelting all these liquids at my head and in my face and that blinded me. I couldn't even see really which way to, to leave. So to backtrack a little bit, sorry, and I'm jumping all over.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's okay.
- ANAndy Ngo
The march was right in the heart of downtown. Just before I was attacked, they were chanting, "No hate, no fear." This is the irony of it. I remember that very clearly. The crowd was chanting that. I was walking towards the front of the demonstration, thought I would get a wide angle shot on my GoF- uh, GoPro. Before I could get there, somebody bashes me really hard in the back of the head and I've never been in a fight, um, Mr. Rogan. So I didn't even realize what had happened to me. I was knocked forward, but soon as I caught my footing, the punches kept coming from every direction and all I could see was like, um, people dressed in black with masks and most of them that were hitting me had on these gloves that have the hardened, um, knuckles. I think it's like, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
SAP gloves.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Or tactical gloves. Yeah.
- ANAndy Ngo
And it, it was just endless. And I could see in the background like, um... this was in front of the justice center. This is the other sad irony. So in, uh, broad daylight in the heart of downtown, steps away from the central police precinct, from the sheriff's office this beating happened. No police intervene at any point. I don't-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did police see it?
- ANAndy Ngo
I don't know. I... nobody came to my aid at any point-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- ANAndy Ngo
... before, during or after.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this happens outta nowhere. You get blindsided in the back of the head, a bunch of people punch you. I mean, how many times do you think you got hit?
- ANAndy Ngo
Maybe six or more.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, the, the fact that people dismiss this as not being a big deal-
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is really horrific to me.
- ANAndy Ngo
It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
The fact that the people that are in Antifa that are non-violent folks, which I think... I'm, I'm glad you brought that up 'cause I was gonna bring that up. That it's the extreme of the extremists, right? It's the people that think that y- that, that there's a call for violence and that there's a reason to do it. And even someone like yourself that is a non-violent person is just there as a journalist, that there is a justification for just a- just for whatever reason you want, just go up to that person and start hitting them. Even though they're not a threat, even though they're not doing anything to harm anybody, even though they're not putting anybody in danger, they're, they're just being a journalist and you feel like you could justify hitting them. It's really disgusting. And it's dis- I mean, th- there was this thing with Vox where Carlos Meza was, uh, mi- min- minimizing, um, the, the impact of Antifa and kind of joking around about it and making it seem like it's just no big deal. And he got really upset 'cause Steven Crowder was making fun of the fact that he's gay and the fact that he talks with a lisp and that Crowder mentioned that along with mocking his stance on Antifa. And then it became this gigantic thing that Steven Crowder's a gay basher. What, what didn't become a big deal is that this guy is minimizing violent fascists. And that's what... I mean, that's how I feel about this. When you're trying to enforce your own ideology on other people and you have no tolerance for anybody with a differing opinion, particularly journalists, that is fascism. It's so ironic to call yourself an anti-fascist when you're literally enforcing your own particular ideology to the point of violence and you're wearing masks and you're running around hitting people and pretending that you're being inundated with Nazis and white supremacists and that this is all necessary. Like that old man that was just driving and they're directing traffic and forcing him to o- obey them and then when he doesn't want to, they chase after him and assault him. It's fucking bananas. And the fact that this city has not stepped in and recognized that they have a real problem because this has got momentum behind it...And the people that are involved that are non-violent, you gotta speak up. They've gotta speak up. If you're a person that really believes that there shouldn't be homophobia and there shouldn't be violence and there shouldn't be white supremacy, good for you. You probably got involved in this for all the right reasons. But if you don't recognize that someone like you, yourself, who is a person of, uh, a different ethnicity, you're not a white person, you're Vietnamese, you're a gay man, and you got assaulted for no reason. You didn't do anything. I mean, it's almost like a test of where do your values truly lie? And if you think it's okay for a person like you to just get assaulted for no reason, you are the problem. You're the problem. Your mindset is the problem. It's not whether or not there should be white supremacy. Of course, there shouldn't be. It's not whether or not there shouldn't be, uh, people b- be able to freely express themselves. Of course, there should be. That is not what the issue is. What the issue is, is group mob mentality, when you get people together and you let them wear masks and you t- tell them that they're fighting against some evil, and then they feel justified in hitting a person like you. It, it is really sickening. And there's this diffusion of responsibility thing that happens when one person hits you and everybody feels like it's okay to hit you. It's a mob mentality thing, and it's, it is extremely common with human beings. I, I've been in mob situations. It's terrifying 'cause you feel it in the air. You feel the chaos in the air when you're in some sort of a, a, a large scale brawl type situation, like anything can happen. People just run up on people and start punching them. It's not like two people alone in a, in a, in a, like, an open area where they can talk and work things out. No, it's chaos. And there's some weird animal activity, there's some weir- weird animal instinct aspect to it that is very unique to humans. And when you see something like this and see a guy like you just getting peppered with milkshakes and punched in the head, and... It's fucking disturbing. And for these people to dismiss that and not stand out, not stand up and say, "Hey, this is not what we're supposed to be about, this is not what I signed up for," they become a part of the problem. I'm sure there's people listening to this that are upset at this, because maybe you, you, you support Antifa, you support their ideology. Think about what you actually support. Think about what this is really all about. What you shouldn't be supporting is people wearing masks running around fucking hitting people. You ain't changing shit with that. All you're gonna do is call for more people with masks from the other side. If people feel like right-wing people are being attacked, and, and I don't think you're even right-wing. Are you? I mean, what are... What, would you, if you had a gun to your head or a mace to your face (laughs) , what would you, would you say you're a centrist? What would you say?
- ANAndy Ngo
I think it's fair to describe me as center-right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Center-right, okay. Which is fine. It should be okay. I mean, there should, we should, uh, be allowed to have disagreements of ideologies and of political persuasions, political, um, leanings. But this is, it's twisted. And it's twisted the way it's being depicted in the media. It's very strange how it's being dismissed. It's very strange in that there's really people in 2019 debating whether or not it's okay to assault journalists. It's fucking madness.
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, we've been seeing the build-up to this for years. People... Political violence coming from the left is, is seen as moral. And unfortunately, even those working in mainstream media have at times excused or found that type of violence good. I'm thinking of Chris Cuomo and Don Lemon at CNN.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- 40:52 – 49:29
Portland’s policy paralysis: the mayor’s response and the mask-law debate
- ANAndy Ngo
This is a... the mayor has been in office now for three years and he finally did a press conference two days ago, nine days after my attack, to address this con- controversy, right? And what was so frustrating is that the, the, the police chief had, um, publicly stated that she thinks the city or the state should adopt a law that makes it illegal to wear a mask while committing a crime. That should be a no-brainer. It's shocking that in Portland-
- JRJoe Rogan
I got a better idea. How about n- not... you can't wear a mask in public at these events? 'Cause you can say, "You can't wear a mask while committing a crime." You're wearing a mask. How do you... who the fuck do you know committed the crime? Unless you take the mask off, then we can't even identify 'em. It's stupid. You can't wear a mask.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So this, you know, sounds like a, a baseline, somebody... a, a policy-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... that you should start advocating for, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Like, don't kick babies.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. Well, the mayor said he hasn't decided if he supported it. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
He hasn't decided if he supported whether or not it should be illegal to wear a mask while you're committing a crime?
- ANAndy Ngo
Correct. Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's hilarious.
- ANAndy Ngo
And he had no policy proposals and he spoke as if, uh, like it was his first day in office when this was like... this is becoming routine now. It's almost banal in Portland and Portland is a, is a harbinger and a warning to what can happen in other cities when you have a r- a government, um, those in the upper echelons of governance turning a blind l- eye to far left militancy and just letting...... these thugs go on the street and beat people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just imagine if it was the case, if they were doing that ab- about far-right militancy. Imagine if they were far-right people who were, who were doing this and committing violence, and the government was just like, "Well, you know, um, I'm not sure if they shouldn't be allowed to wear masks while they commit crimes." People would be freaking the fuck out.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's the weird justification of this stuff that's, that's so disturbing. I just don't... And I fucking love Portland. It's one of my favorite places. It's great. The city's great. I mean it, it's fucking cool people. It's not all of them that are involved in this. It is a very small number and th- the, even amongst the small number, it's the very small number of them that are radical, that are violent. When you look at the people that are attacking you, not to minimize it, but it's very few. You look at that video, it's a couple people out of th- thousands of people that are in that group. There's a few people that are attacking you.
- ANAndy Ngo
It was about a dozen.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it really?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Well, if you count throwing milkshakes.
- ANAndy Ngo
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
But actually hitting you, how many people do you think hit you?
- ANAndy Ngo
(smacks lips) I'm not sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Three? Four, maybe?
- ANAndy Ngo
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Something like that? Okay. That's the problem. The problem is these fucking assholes. It's not the people that disagree with you, it's the people that think you should be able to throw milkshakes at people, and guys like Carlos Meza who don't think it's a big deal to throw milkshakes at people. It's a fucking big deal. It's a big deal, 'cause you, it re- it calls for a response. This is why it's a big deal. And people don't understand assault, they don't understand violence. You can't just do that. You, you, you live in some comic book world or some fucking Disney show world where you can just throw a milkshake at someone and they don't do anything. They're gonna turn around and punch you in your fucking face, and then what happens? Well, you might fall and hit your head and die, 'cause that's real. That's the real world we live in. Or you might s- cause a giant brawl, 'cause people don't want to be hit with milkshakes. Or y- there's enough of you where you think you can get away with it, so you're an awful bully, and you're throwing milkshakes at someone 'cause you don't like what they stand for. And you're meeting in a public place and you're disagreeing about something, so to r- right this disagreement, you're assaulting people.
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, for that very reason. Antifa never engages in, like, a quote/unquote "fair fight" one on one. They, uh, what they do, usually, as a group well-masked up, one or several of them will distract the person either by speaking to them perhaps or blinding them with the chemical spray, and then they take turns beating. So y- there's even no opportunity to, like, uh ... No, you know, you don't even know how many people are hitting you at that point. So that's what they do, blind you, and then attack.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs) It's so f- it's so scary, 'cause it's so dumb. It's not just scary because, like, you watching what happened to you was scary, 'cause ... You know, and watching that old man who got hit in the head with a crowbar. It's fucking horrific. All that stuff's horrific. And apparently that guy had pulled out some sort of a rod and was swinging at people before he got hit with a crowbar. I do not know. But I do know, when you start hitting people in the head with crowbars, that is the beginning of the end. W- horrible, horrible shit happens in response to that. And it hasn't yet, but this is 10 days ago. W- who knows what's going to happen if there's another one of these rallies and you get people from the far right who organized. This is when the Proud Boys really radicalized. They radicalized to go against Antifa. They were attacked, they attacked them, and then it became this fucking shitshow that you're seeing right now.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. I, I want to state for the record, though, the, the violence that happened after I was beat up was involving the, the men's rights activist group and Antifa. Proud Boys was holding ... Uh, they held a separate event in a different part of the city. Uh, as far as I know, they did n- ... There was no, uh, conflict with any-
- JRJoe Rogan
In this, in this particular event?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, in this particular event.
- JRJoe Rogan
So who was the men's rights guy?
- 49:29 – 54:25
How Antifa is organized: cells, recruiting, ideology, and calls for federal attention
- JRJoe Rogan
So how organized are they?
- ANAndy Ngo
They are a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do they have a leader?
- ANAndy Ngo
They're ... In terms of Antifa as we understand it today really crystallized only after 2016. There's been very little academic research into how they're actually organized. But basically as a movement, they have essentially cells across the country that are semi-autonomous, united by an ideology of anarchy- anarcho-communism and their support for violence. So it's not so much a group itself, it's the people who are part of that movement are drawn from other actual groups. They draw from the DSA, they draw from various workers unions, other anarchist groups. And like other terrorist entities, they have pro- processes to radicalize, um, sympathizers essentially. They have their own literature as well. And so it's much more organized than people give them credit for. They think of them as just a- you know, people showing up to fight on the street. It's- there's- there's meaning to that- to that violence and there's literature to back it up, and they have pro- you know, they actively recruit people to join the movement. So, um, I've been asked like, "Do you think the federal authorities should step in?" My- my response is I think it's come to the point that they do, because with Antifa, um, it's not- it's beyond what local authorities can do because a lot of these people, a lot of them are in Portland from Portland, but a lot of them come from, for example, from Eugene, from Seattle, from neighboring areas that have other Antifa people come in to participate in the violence for that day or to help out, and then they go back to where they're from. So they're- their coming in and out of jurisdictions makes it hard for one local body of- of authorities to address it. I think, um, the DOJ needs to step in. I think it's gotten to that point, that- and with 2020 coming up soon, um, there could be potential for a lot more political violence if the results don't- if the election's results don't go as they wish.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's, uh, an obvious one considering the fact that this all became a thing after Trump was elected.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, with the- if the DOJ did step in, what do you think they could do?
- ANAndy Ngo
So that's ... Well ...
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, do you believe in the- the ability to meet up and express yourself publicly-
- ANAndy Ngo
Of course.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and the- the ability to protest and the ability to just, uh, get together and have groups and- and, you know, express yourself?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes. However, that's not just what Antifa does.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ANAndy Ngo
Like I said, the violence is a feature of their movement. So what federal authorities can do-
- JRJoe Rogan
When you- can I stop you there?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you say the violence is a feature of your- their movement, is there- is there- do they have anything written like the tenets of their movement where they say that violence is acceptable?
- ANAndy Ngo
There's a book called The Anti-Fascist Handbook. It's written by Mark Bray. He's an academic at Dartmouth. He is- I would call him one of Antifa's chief ideologues. So not only does he explain what Antifa does, and i- in his writings he makes it very clear that the, um, the quote unquote self-defense is what justifies the offensive violence. He actually argues why that's ethical. So because he's an academic, um, well-spoken, um, he's invited on to mainstream media to explain- to basically, like I said earlier, mainstream Antifa. He's-
- JRJoe Rogan
What- can you explain what he says?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes. I- I highly recommend that people take a look at, uh, his book. Um, the Attorney General of Minnesota, um, Keith Ellison was photographed a year ago holding- holding up that book of- uh, the Antifa book, and that kind of went- um, he's been criticized a bit for that, and he deleted that image after my beating.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was holding it up in support?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. He said this- he said, uh, something about like, "This book on Antifa strikes fear into the heart of Donald Trump."
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So there's people in government who are sympathetic to Antifa as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
But- but this professor, can you explain what he says?
- ANAndy Ngo
He outlines and explains essentially why Antifa's violence is ethical, that it's ... Because they're opposing fascism, and fascism is a violent movement, this is sort of a preemptive move. Like we have to-
- JRJoe Rogan
That word fascism-
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it- it is a problem, right?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- 54:25 – 1:00:55
Defining ‘fascism’ and the ethics-of-violence argument in Antifa literature
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause it seems like that's definitely something you should oppose, but what is the- what's the actual definition of fascism?
- ANAndy Ngo
Fascism as a far right political ideology, from what I understand, is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Pull up the definition, Jamie, so we can just read what fascism- what the- the actual word fascism means. Here, a form of radical right-wing authoritarium- authoritarian-... "ultra-nationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th century Europe." Um, forcible suppression of op ... Put that back up, please. Forcible suppression of opposition is what they're doing.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Strong regimentation of society. I mean, they're, they're literally telling people how to behave and what they will tolerate. I know it's not right-wing ideology-
- ANAndy Ngo
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but it's almost like fascism. And I'm sure there's other definitions of fascism. The idea of supporting someone who opposes fascism sounds wonderful, sounds great. Let's, let's stop fascism. But are, are we really experiencing authoritarian ultra-nationalism characterized by dictatorial power in this country? I mean, is that-
- ANAndy Ngo
No, we're not.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is that a fair thing to say? I know people don't like Donald Trump. I know people don't like right-wing ideologies running this country. I understand that. But this is not, this is not what's happening.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah, the issue ... Like, fascism as defined by political theorists who have been re- researching this for decades, it has a particular definition and meaning. And that's, um, I think that summarizes it pretty well. I'm very concerned that people use it so flippantly to just refer to the right or to even authoritarianism. Like, there's much more to it than just being authoritarian. There's all those other components. And, uh, I need, it needs ... It's important to state that Antifa is not just opposed to the far right or the right. They're also against liberal democracy. There's a reason why they hate the police so much, hate border enforcement, and hate the rule of law. It's, they're against the, the concept of the nation state as we understand it. And they're working to dismantle that, to de-legitimize it. So, um, th- this is what I mean when I say it's a, it's a dangerous ideology that for now, you know, enemy of my enemy is your, um, is your friend. But at some point, if this movement becomes bigger, more mainstream, and more people are sympathetic, at some point it's going to come back against the moderate left. Because these people, um, they want to see the d- the destruction of the nation.
- JRJoe Rogan
They wanna see the destruction of the nation state for what purpose? They want anarchy?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they're political anar- anarchists, social anarchists. They, they don't want borders, they don't want nations, they don't want police.
- ANAndy Ngo
Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do they want? B- I mean, what do they expect? What's the ultimate goal?
- ANAndy Ngo
They seem to believe in a utopian, utopian Marxist ideas, right? Of this redistrib- redistribution of wealth where we can be, we can only be truly equal and egalitarian when we dismantle everything about the country. So not just, you know, its institutions, the rule of law, but the state itself. Like, everything just has to be broken down and start over because it's irredeemable. I'm not quite sure I, if ... I mean, they've ... Um, you know, Antifa, uh, I can't think of, like, where they have had ... If there's any somewhat comparable examples around the world of what it looks like for them to, um, do state building, right? So we don't know what it would actually look like. But I mean, the examples we see from these smaller anecdotes is it's, it's chaos and anarchy, like absolute chaos. And, um, violent suppression of opposing views, um, indiscriminate violence at times. Um, I wonder, and what I've been asking over and over is, how many more people have to be drawn into, have to be victims of this violence before something changes? And I put in Portland now, we've had three years of this and literally no policy changes have happened. No even proposals have even been accepted by the mayor.
- JRJoe Rogan
The previous mayor was, what was his po- political persuasion? Or her, I don't even know who ...
- ANAndy Ngo
These are all ... The people who become elected mayor in Portland are typically establishment Democrats, right? So they themselves are moderate very much, uh, you know, in the vein of, um, a Hillary Clinton type of thing. But there's a constituency in Portland that they have to play to for votes, which is the radical people who are sympathetic to very, very progressive causes. And so there's a reason why to date the mayor has never named Antifa one time in any of his press conferences. He has no problem blaming Proud Boys or Patriot Prayer or the right for issues.
- JRJoe Rogan
Patriot Prayer?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's that? Is that another group?
- ANAndy Ngo
Patriot Prayer is one of the other right-wing movements in, uh, in and around Portland that have held pro-Trump events in town that Antifa comes to, to fight and oppose.
- JRJoe Rogan
And how do those turn out?
- ANAndy Ngo
They devolve into riots.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the police allow this?
- ANAndy Ngo
They allow it through their inaction.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. It's just, it's interesting to see a city that's gone so far off the rails like Portland in this regard with this issue. You know, when you see this inaction and what the consequences are and how it, how it happens, and particularly for a person like you, you, you physically see it, you personally see it. Um, are you gonna continue to do these things?... because it seems like you're obviously a target now.
- 1:00:55 – 1:06:30
Aftermath: ongoing threats, no arrests, stolen equipment, and whether to keep reporting
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. Um, when I was asked this, uh, in my interviews, uh, this week, last week, the, the, the response that I ... that comes to my mind right away is, of course, I'm going to continue doing it. I ... These people have threatened me before. I've been attacked before. I'm not going to be cowed. I'm going to continue. I won't be intimidated. But with the, the brain injury that they gave me, it's like, I can't continue doing it the same way as I did before and being naïve to think that police would actually uphold the rule of law. Um, they gave me a brain injury, and like, I never had one before, but I'm dealing with some cognitive and neurological issues that I will c-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like what?
- ANAndy Ngo
Memory issues. I have issues ... So I have upcoming physical the- ... neurophysical therapy as well as speech therapy. So, um, as much as, like, on the surface, I have improved a lot since the beating, there are some long-term consequences that I'm gonna have to work through. And, um, you know, I have ... To be honest, I have certain fears and anxieties of being in Portland. I've continued to receive threats, violent threats, and they've been reported to police. And just people promising to make sure next time that I won't even be able to walk away, that they will repeat what happened to me when they see me on the streets. So like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Have they caught the people that did this to you?
- ANAndy Ngo
So it's been 10 days now, more than 10 days since my beating. There have been no arrests. I don't know where the police are in their investigation. They haven't been keeping me informed.
- JRJoe Rogan
There was a photograph of someone they released.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So the Portland police released photos of, uh, potential suspects and asking for help in identifying. One was unmasked, two, two of them were masked. And, uh, I forgot to say earlier that in addition to the, the beating, they robbed me of my, my camera equipment. So that was my, my evidence for that day, and I tried so hard to hold onto it, but, um, I couldn't.
- JRJoe Rogan
What about you attending this with security? Have you thought about doing that?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So moving forward, um, once I feel well enough and once I'm cleared by the doctors, um, it may be worth it to cover these events, but with professional security. Um ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Gorillas. (laughs)
- ANAndy Ngo
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Big giant dudes.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Would they wear we- like armor? Like, what would you have? How far would you take this?
- ANAndy Ngo
I don't know. W- how far do you think I should take it?
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't think you should go to those things anymore.
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, it seems like you've been ... I mean, it is part of your job. You're a journalist, but it seems like you've been singled out and targeted, and it seems like they don't have any problem justifying attacking you and assaulting you. Uh, if I was gonna go, I'd bring the biggest, baddest dudes that I could find, and a bunch of them, and have them surround you, and have them protect you.
- ANAndy Ngo
What's that tell you about America that in 2019 I don't think it's America. ... that-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's-
- ANAndy Ngo
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
... it's this one particular area and this one particular group. And not even the group. I think it's the most ridiculous people in that group. I don't think it's most ... I think most of these people that probably are a part of this really don't want fascists, and they really don't want some awful right-wing totalitarian regime running this country and in marginalize people of color, gay people, and immigrants, and all those things that I, I support 100%. I'm, I'm left-wing. I mean, I would be on their side ideologically about a lot of things. It's the implementation of it that I have the biggest problem with. It's this group mentality. It's the wearing the masks. It's the assaults. It's the not understanding the consequences of violence. All these things. This is what I have a problem with. The way the, the mayor allows this to take place, the way he handcuffs the police. That, that is what I have a problem with. It's not that they don't want horrible people running the government and running the world. I understand that. That makes sense.
- ANAndy Ngo
But you're not for the dismantling of the nation's state, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Nope. No. No, I'm not.
- ANAndy Ngo
Or the breakdown of democracy?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. So th- these are the points that I'm trying to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ANAndy Ngo
... to hit on that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Those are the points that are hidden, right? Is that what you're saying?
- 1:06:30 – 1:10:04
Legal strategy and crowdfunding: building pressure through a legal fund
- ANAndy Ngo
Can I talk about the, um, the next step of what's next for me?
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- ANAndy Ngo
So, a lot of people listening and are frustrated and have expressed support are asking, "Well, what can I do? I'm just one person." And this is the, the power now. We, we live in a time where there's crowdfunding and, you know, with all the points that we brought up earlier, it seems to show a lot of evidence to suggest that there is something seriously wrong in the upper echelons of-... policing and governing in Portland, and that's what the, the legal fund is. So, um, I'm working with, um, Harmeet Dhillon, she represented James Damore. Um, she's taken, uh, me on as a first client for the nonprofit that she started called, um... if you go to Publius Lex, P-U-B-L-I-U-S L-E-X.com, you'll see, um, information for how you can donate and anything helps. And we're trying... we... you know, lawsuits, if they happen against, um, the city or mayor or police department, it costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. Takes... you know, there's a lot of overhead costs and the amount of people y- you know, you have to take in to do all the investi- um, to do your investigations. So, there's an opportunity for the public to get involved. Um, you know, I don't want the story to pass just about, "Andy got beat up, so what? Let's move on." But rather, there's systemic issues happening in Portland and there are implications for the rest of the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do you think is going on with media that is supporting this attack on you? 'Cause, uh, I- I've seen so many journalists dismiss this as being not a big deal. Why- why do you think that anybody would look at something like that, where someone's being beaten publicly, and not think it's a big deal? What do you think is behind that?
- ANAndy Ngo
Extremist ideologies are very good at dehumanizing their opposition, and that's what Antifa does. So there's been a lot of disinformation, misinformation put out a- about me, you know? "I'm not, I'm not..." they say for example, "Oh, I'm not really a journalist, I'm just a far right provocateur. I'm somebody who's sympathetic to Nazis." Um, and so when you put these ideas out that not only are lies, but are meant to remove one's humanity, they just become, you know, like, "Andy is no longer Andy. Andy is the face of far right ideology." And it makes people feel comfortable with violence against that. And it was so disheartening to see so many writers come out and say things like, "You know, I don't really support what happened to Andy, but he's done far worse." Or, "He was a provocateur. His writings... Like, he came and he, he got exactly what he was looking for." What happened to me should happen to nobody, um, much less a journalist, right? Um, like, this is an American, in a major American city. We're not... you know, this is not an Afghanistan or Iraq where the state is weak. We have a strong state. We have police force. Why are the laws not being enforced? Why are citizens having to suffer, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
Why are there no arrests?
- ANAndy Ngo
Why are there no arrests?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's really absurd. And it's obscene.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- 1:10:04 – 1:19:45
Looking ahead: next rally date, risk of escalation, and a tentative ‘silver lining’
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, when is the next one of these things supposed to take place?
- ANAndy Ngo
On the 17th of August is supposedly the next event. I think the Proud Boys have announced that they're encouraging all of their members across the country to, to fly into Portland and...
- JRJoe Rogan
It's always fucking Portland.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah. They're kind of reacting, I think, to the 29th of June. So, um, we'll see what happens. I'm concerned.
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you gonna go?
- ANAndy Ngo
I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
You should go and get a Popemobile.
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Let 'em throw milkshakes at the Popemobile.
- ANAndy Ngo
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Get a big old fish tank, put some wheels on it. Have some giant dudes push you around.
- ANAndy Ngo
The-
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm joking around about it, obviously, to try to make light, but-
- ANAndy Ngo
It's okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
... do you really think you're gonna go?
- ANAndy Ngo
I don't know if I feel safe. And I hate using-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you shouldn't feel safe.
- ANAndy Ngo
Well, I hate using the language of the, um, identitarian left, you know? Like, "I feel unsafe," and all that. I'm trying to remain-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well-
- ANAndy Ngo
... rational.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, but you were assaulted-
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... twice.
- ANAndy Ngo
And I continue to receive threats.
- JRJoe Rogan
You were assaulted, what, in May?
- ANAndy Ngo
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then you were assaulted again in June.
- ANAndy Ngo
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ANAndy Ngo
So...
Episode duration: 1:19:45
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Transcript of episode cI2EHMy1lgs
