Joe Rogan Experience #1326 - Maynard James Keenan

Joe Rogan 0:00 ... young Jamie. (clears throat) Three, two, one. Ladies and gentlemen, my favorite farmer.

Maynard James Keenan 0:05 (laughs) Hey.

Joe Rogan 0:08 You're my, you're my favorite farmer.

Maynard James Keenan 0:09 I'm your favorite farmer, excellent.

Joe Rogan 0:10 Yeah, I don't know that many of them, but you're number one.

Maynard James Keenan 0:13 All right.

Joe Rogan 0:15 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 0:15 (laughs) I have a feeling that I don't quite farm the things you would rather use.

Joe Rogan 0:20 What do you mean? Like, marijuana? Is that what you're trying to say?

Maynard James Keenan 0:21 I, I wasn't gonna say it, but if you're gonna bring it up...

Joe Rogan 0:23 Psh, I love wine, dude. Y- You make fucking killer wine.

Maynard James Keenan 0:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 0:27 I'm, I'm a fan of your wine, so-

Maynard James Keenan 0:28 Excellent.

Joe Rogan 0:29 ... there you go. I have, I have yet to try your food, but I want to. I didn't even know what an osterio was until I talked to you.

Maynard James Keenan 0:34 See?

Joe Rogan 0:35 I didn't know.

Maynard James Keenan 0:36 Or that you use falcons to kill birds in your vineyard.

Joe Rogan 0:38 That fucking thing you sent me is dope as fuck.

Maynard James Keenan 0:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:40 So you have hired falc- You hired a, a person in-

Maynard James Keenan 0:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:44 ... a couple that raises falcons to kill pigeons that are fucking with your food.

Maynard James Keenan 0:48 What else? Uh, starlings, sparrows. Anything that's-

Joe Rogan 0:51 Anytime.

Maynard James Keenan 0:51 Anything that's messing with the grapes, they have the, these falcons come through. And, uh, then the thing is, the collective birds in the area will have a memory of that. So, like, if you-

Joe Rogan 1:00 (laughs) Oh, okay.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00 (laughs) ... have this hawk come through the, the vineyard and they just pulverize and there's feathers everywhere, the, the community of birds kinda go-

Joe Rogan 1:09 Okay.

Maynard James Keenan 1:10 ... "I don't think we should go this way. We should go that way."

Joe Rogan 1:13 (laughs) The cage with the feathers everywhere.

Maynard James Keenan 1:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:15 And then the pigeons on the other side is like, "What?"

Maynard James Keenan 1:18 (laughs) Yeah, that's a snack.

Joe Rogan 1:20 I was in Venice recently, last week. I'm still jet-lagged. I'm completely fucked. I haven't slept solid in five whole days. My body does not know what's going on. I'll go to sleep completely exhausted and I wake up two hours later-

Maynard James Keenan 1:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33 ... feeling like shit and I can't go back to sleep.

Maynard James Keenan 1:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:35 But when I was in Venice, um, there was a guy with a falcon. He wa- he had a falcon with him. And, uh, and I was like, "Why does this guy have a falcon?" And then the fucking pigeons come in like crazy. And when the guy's there with the falcon, the, the pigeons just ghost. They're gone, they take off. So this guy stands there by the dock in Venice as the gondoliers pull up. And, uh, he's just got this falcon just sitting there to, so that the people can eat their food. The pigeons are insanely aggressive.

Maynard James Keenan 2:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:01 It's, it's a ridiculous place.

Maynard James Keenan 2:03 Until they see.

Joe Rogan 2:04 They see that falcon.

Maynard James Keenan 2:05 Done.

Joe Rogan 2:06 Fuck this.

Maynard James Keenan 2:06 Yes.

Joe Rogan 2:07 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 2:07 Correct.

Joe Rogan 2:07 You ever see videos online where, um, the Mongols use w- uh, they use eagles, golden eagles to hunt for wolves?

Maynard James Keenan 2:15 Come on.

Joe Rogan 2:15 Dude, it's wild. An eagle which weighs, like, what, 15, 20 pounds? They fuck wolves up. They swoop ... These wolves are just running for their life as death swarms down from the sky.

Maynard James Keenan 2:27 We were gonna use the, uh, drone to get some footage of the falcons. And we're like ... She's like, "Yeah, that's probably not a good idea." I'm like, "Yeah, 'cause the, the blades." She goes, "No, no, no, your drone 'cause the falcons will go full force into your drone and destroy it."

Joe Rogan 2:44 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 2:44 "So whatever you paid for it, try going to your insurance company and going, 'Hey, my drone broke.' What did you do? 'It flew near a falcon.' They're gonna go, 'Yeah, good luck.'"

Joe Rogan 2:53 Well, peregrine falcons, don't they go, like, 200 miles an hour?

Maynard James Keenan 2:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:58 They're the fastest animal on the planet.

Maynard James Keenan 3:00 Boom.

Joe Rogan 3:00 Fu- fuck what?

Maynard James Keenan 3:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:03 200 miles an hour?

Maynard James Keenan 3:04 Yeah, destroy your drone.

Joe Rogan 3:06 I mean, that doesn't even make sense. What you got ... Oh, this is the Mongols. So look, these dudes run. The wolves are running away. The wolves know the fucking drill too, man. And this eagle just comes down and jacks the wolf. And that's how they skin these wolves. Look at that, two of them. Boom.

Maynard James Keenan 3:21 Good God.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Yeah, they are death from the sky. And these guys raise them.

Maynard James Keenan 3:26 And then they wear the wolf hat.

Joe Rogan 3:27 Yeah, they wear the, the skin, the furs, everything about it. It's just ...

Maynard James Keenan 3:31 So ...

Joe Rogan 3:32 So that's it.

Maynard James Keenan 3:33 What are we talking about?

Joe Rogan 3:34 What, whatever you wanna talk about, fella.

Maynard James Keenan 3:35 All right.

Joe Rogan 3:35 I hear you got some news.

Maynard James Keenan 3:37 Yeah, so I figured, I know there's a lot of, uh, there's probably some Tool fans that are probably tuning to this specifically to hear some news.

Joe Rogan 3:43 Yeah, that's-

Maynard James Keenan 3:44 So rather than being a dick and waiting to the end to tell them, I probably, we should probably tell them upfront.

Joe Rogan 3:49 Are you, like, softening in your age as, as you get older?

Maynard James Keenan 3:51 No, not at all. I just care, I just, I care about the, as long as things have taken for us 'cause we're a very difficult band. We're very stubborn-

Joe Rogan 3:58 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 3:58 ... and we're, you know, we're kind of ignorant to what goes on in the rest of the world. And so people are like, "Guys, come on, guys." (breathes deeply) Uh, and, you know, I mean, to their credit, like, we did, the whole Betamax thing didn't work for us and neither did, uh, LaserDisc. So we have this new thing called digital media and streaming. We're gonna try it out.

Joe Rogan 4:18 You're gonna stream this stuff-

Maynard James Keenan 4:19 It's a new thing, it's a new thing, streaming. Uh, iTunes, Amazon.

Joe Rogan 4:21 So you can just get it on ... Oh, like Spotify, that kinda deal?

Maynard James Keenan 4:25 Yeah, yeah. You heard of it?

Joe Rogan 4:25 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 4:26 It's like just brand new. It's brand new.

Joe Rogan 4:28 Yeah, it like works on-

Maynard James Keenan 4:29 To us.

Joe Rogan 4:29 ... your phone or something.

Maynard James Keenan 4:30 To us, it's brand new.

Joe Rogan 4:31 What are you doing with it?

Maynard James Keenan 4:32 Uh, we're gonna put some songs on it.

Joe Rogan 4:34 Oh, so you can listen-

Maynard James Keenan 4:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 4:35 ... when you're not even, like, plugged in anything?

Maynard James Keenan 4:36 Correct.

Joe Rogan 4:37 Wow.

Maynard James Keenan 4:37 So here's what I'm gonna do now because this is ... By the time this actually airs, this will have already happened, but you're filming me doing it.

Joe Rogan 4:43 Right, you're gonna upload a tweet-

Maynard James Keenan 4:46 I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a thing.

Joe Rogan 4:47 ... letting everybody know.

Maynard James Keenan 4:48 I'm a, I'm a tweaker.

Joe Rogan 4:49 Do you have it prepared and everything?

Maynard James Keenan 4:51 Not really.

Joe Rogan 4:51 So you, you're doing this because your fans, which are very rabid, you have rabid fans. The Tool fans are particularly enthusiastic.

Maynard James Keenan 5:00 They're pretty, they're pretty aggressive.

Joe Rogan 5:02 They-

Maynard James Keenan 5:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:02 Well, it's 'cause you guys are awesome.

Maynard James Keenan 5:04 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 5:05 It's 'cause you fucked up, made an awesome band, you got some radical fans. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 5:08 Okay.

Joe Rogan 5:09 So, uh, when-

Maynard James Keenan 5:11 This Friday-

Joe Rogan 5:11 ... if you release this podcast-

Maynard James Keenan 5:15 ... the idea was that if you said it on the podcast without letting them know first. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:19 They, they-

Maynard James Keenan 5:19 They deserve to hear it first. They've been-

Joe Rogan 5:20 Oh.

Maynard James Keenan 5:20 ... very patient with us, very patient.

Joe Rogan 5:22 Oh, okay.

Maynard James Keenan 5:22 So this Friday, August 2nd-

Joe Rogan 5:26 Dum, dum, dum.

Maynard James Keenan 5:26 ... the catalog, I'm turning the catalog-

Joe Rogan 5:30 The whole catalog.

Maynard James Keenan 5:31 ... goes up.

Joe Rogan 5:34 On Napster.

Maynard James Keenan 5:35 On Napster.

Joe Rogan 5:37 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 5:37 Are you familiar with Napster?

Joe Rogan 5:38 I've heard of it.

Maynard James Keenan 5:39 It's great.

Joe Rogan 5:40 That Lars guy is really upset about it.

Maynard James Keenan 5:41 Uh, yes, you should talk to Lars about this. He's got a whole thing. He's gonna try to figure out, figure out how to undermine them.

Joe Rogan 5:46 Yeah, he's gonna stop it in its tracks.

Maynard James Keenan 5:47 Our catalog goes up on all digital and streaming-

Joe Rogan 5:54 He's doing this on his phone right now as we're talking.

Maynard James Keenan 5:57 Streaming for Matt's.

Joe Rogan 5:59 So up until this time, you never have had anything up and available.

Maynard James Keenan 6:04 No.

Joe Rogan 6:05 You're like, what's his name? Garth Brooks? Yeah, he doesn't have anything up either.No comment. (laughs) Garth Brooks doesn't, he f- he just wants his ... Well, it's kind of like a good artistic choice. He doesn't want his stuff to be broken up into songs. He wants you to download or to buy his entire CD, because he feels like there's a correct order for his songs.

Maynard James Keenan 6:28 He says that?

Joe Rogan 6:29 That's what he says, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 6:30 Well, that's ... We try to, we tried that one before and people (laughs) were like, "No, no. We want you to hear our whole album as, as, you know, in sequence." And people are like, "Like you play them live?" Like ...

Joe Rogan 6:41 Oh, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 6:42 We've, I, we've never played the whole album-

Joe Rogan 6:43 Right. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 6:44 ... straight start to finish. So, of course-

Joe Rogan 6:46 So, they're like, "Oh."

Maynard James Keenan 6:46 ... I'm not the guy that said, "Oh, no. We wanted you to hear it." Yeah. That's 'cause that would be an-

Joe Rogan 6:50 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 6:50 ... absolute lie.

Joe Rogan 6:53 Yeah. Yeah, Garth Brooks has some weird things. Of course, um, Garth Brooks is being currently harassed.

Maynard James Keenan 6:59 And, and away we go.

Joe Rogan 7:00 By Tom Segura.

Maynard James Keenan 7:01 There we go.

Joe Rogan 7:01 So, what's up? There you go.

Maynard James Keenan 7:02 That's up there.

Joe Rogan 7:03 Beautiful. It's out there in the ether.

Maynard James Keenan 7:04 It's out there in the ether.

Joe Rogan 7:06 So, why have you guys not had anything on streaming up until this moment?

Maynard James Keenan 7:10 I ... Yeah. No. I can't.

Joe Rogan 7:12 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 7:12 I love my brothers. I'm just gonna take the Fifth on that one.

Joe Rogan 7:16 Okay. So, there was some-

Maynard James Keenan 7:16 Um ...

Joe Rogan 7:16 ... sort of internal di- discussion. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 7:19 Or or no discussion.

Joe Rogan 7:20 Or no discussion. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 7:21 Yeah, just the the-

Joe Rogan 7:23 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 7:23 ... typical tool time of like, "What? Was ... There was a meeting?"

Joe Rogan 7:27 Hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 7:27 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:28 Well, uh, again, this is what you get with great artists. You don't get great artists who are also the best promoters.

Maynard James Keenan 7:35 Correct.

Joe Rogan 7:36 The per- ... The ones who are the best promoters usually they're not the best artists.

Maynard James Keenan 7:39 Here's what we're ... Here's also what we're gonna do today.

Joe Rogan 7:42 You got ... You doing another thing?

Maynard James Keenan 7:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:43 Is this like one of them late night things where you're selling knives?

Maynard James Keenan 7:45 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:45 Get an extra-

Maynard James Keenan 7:46 Yeah. Do you want a knife? 'Cause I sell 'em.

Joe Rogan 7:48 You got-

Maynard James Keenan 7:48 We also have some old stock in beta-

Joe Rogan 7:49 (laughs) Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 7:50 ... and-

Joe Rogan 7:50 Samurai swords and shit.

Maynard James Keenan 7:51 Yeah. Uh, no, I'm gonna announce the name of the s- new album.

Joe Rogan 7:56 Ooh.

Maynard James Keenan 7:58 You like that?

Joe Rogan 7:58 Yeah, you doing it on your phone first?

Maynard James Keenan 8:00 Fear ...

Joe Rogan 8:02 Of a Black Planet?

Maynard James Keenan 8:03 And ... (laughs) No. Fear of a Black Planet.

Speaker 8:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:06 That sounds catchy.

Maynard James Keenan 8:07 Uh, Fear Innoculum.

Joe Rogan 8:09 Fear Innoculum.

Maynard James Keenan 8:09 Yeah, a white guy's putting out an album called Fear of a Black Planet-

Joe Rogan 8:11 (laughs)

Speaker 8:12 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 8:12 ... would fucking really go over well in 2020.

Joe Rogan 8:14 And yeah, that would be-

Maynard James Keenan 8:15 Uh ...

Joe Rogan 8:15 ... the least woke thing you could do in 2019.

Maynard James Keenan 8:17 Yeah, Cowboy Cerrone would buy the first copy.

Joe Rogan 8:19 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 8:19 Uh, Fear Innoculum is the name of the album.

Joe Rogan 8:22 Ah.

Maynard James Keenan 8:22 Fear Innoculum. And that comes out-

Joe Rogan 8:24 Who'd you say would buy the first album?

Maynard James Keenan 8:27 Uh, I'm not gonna say that again.

Joe Rogan 8:28 I didn't hear what you said.

Maynard James Keenan 8:29 I might have said Cowboy Cerrone.

Joe Rogan 8:31 Cowboy Cerrone?

Maynard James Keenan 8:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:33 Why would you say that?

Maynard James Keenan 8:33 I don't know. 'Cause he wears that cowboy hat and I just assume that, you know.

Joe Rogan 8:36 He's got a lot of Black friends.

Maynard James Keenan 8:38 Does he?

Joe Rogan 8:38 You're out of line. I'm totally out of line.

Maynard James Keenan 8:39 He trains with all these Black guys. So, now he's gonna be mad at me.

Joe Rogan 8:42 You know, he'll-

Maynard James Keenan 8:42 Now I gotta apologize to him.

Joe Rogan 8:42 ... he'll think you're joking.

Maynard James Keenan 8:43 Okay.

Joe Rogan 8:43 He probably won't hear this.

Maynard James Keenan 8:44 All right.

Joe Rogan 8:45 He's probably too busy jumping a jet ski over a bridge.

Maynard James Keenan 8:47 I'm just jealous of, of his hat, so ... August 30th.

Joe Rogan 8:51 You can get yo- ... Him in them hats. You got some money. You got a hat of your own.

Maynard James Keenan 8:53 Yes, I do.

Joe Rogan 8:54 It's like a Sinatra hat.

Maynard James Keenan 8:56 It's, uh, that's some, that's a-

Joe Rogan 8:56 If you weren't so cool, that would be a douchebag hat.

Maynard James Keenan 8:58 That's some Breaking Bad shit-

Joe Rogan 8:59 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 8:59 ... right there.

Joe Rogan 9:00 I like it.

Maynard James Keenan 9:00 You like that?

Joe Rogan 9:01 I like it on you.

Maynard James Keenan 9:03 I like it on you.

Joe Rogan 9:03 Looks good on you.

Maynard James Keenan 9:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:04 It does. There's s- there's things that people ... Like, you could pull off one of those, uh, buckskin pioneer jackets with the fray.

Maynard James Keenan 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:13 You could pull ... You know the- they have the ... What is that stuff called? The tassels that, that hang down from the sides of the jackets?

Maynard James Keenan 9:18 And away we go.

Joe Rogan 9:18 And away we go.

Maynard James Keenan 9:19 Yeah, we'll just-

Joe Rogan 9:19 You put it on Instagram as well, huh?

Maynard James Keenan 9:20 We've just ... I just put it on Instagram first.

Joe Rogan 9:22 You're a madman.

Maynard James Keenan 9:23 We'll get it on Twitter in a minute-

Joe Rogan 9:24 Good.

Maynard James Keenan 9:25 ... 'cause I got more important things to talk about.

Joe Rogan 9:26 Now people will shut the fuck up. They'll leave you alone. I like that little set up too that you got there with the laptop/iPad. I didn't know that they made that kind of a case that doubles as a keyboard.

Maynard James Keenan 9:37 Yeah, it's great.

Joe Rogan 9:37 Yeah. Look at you.

Maynard James Keenan 9:39 All right.

Joe Rogan 9:39 Farmers with technology.

Maynard James Keenan 9:41 Right? Beep, beep, boop. Beep, beep, beep.

Joe Rogan 9:44 So, how's the wine business?

Maynard James Keenan 9:45 Uh, it's good. Uh, we're a little late this year. Um, I think it's about two weeks behind.

Joe Rogan 9:50 So, I wanted to ask you this because this is something that l- like a lot of people that are dealing with, uh, in the Arizona area, that you guys had a lot of rain, right?

Maynard James Keenan 9:59 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:00 Yeah. So, I know like hunters and people that are like into the wildlife and everything like that are really excited about this fall because there's so much moisture. It's likely the- the animal population will be very healthy.

Maynard James Keenan 10:10 Uh, yes, and I mean-

Joe Rogan 10:12 (clears throat)

Maynard James Keenan 10:12 ... it- it's, you know, with anything, there's there's always gonna be both sides of that.

Joe Rogan 10:15 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 10:16 With with extra rain in the spring comes extra foliage, extra ground cover, extra grass.

Joe Rogan 10:23 Right, and they fuck-

Maynard James Keenan 10:24 Uh ...

Joe Rogan 10:24 ... with the root systems.

Maynard James Keenan 10:25 No, then it, uh, then there's extra fires.

Joe Rogan 10:28 Oh.

Maynard James Keenan 10:28 Because, because then when the rain dries up you have all this extra-

Joe Rogan 10:31 Of course.

Maynard James Keenan 10:31 ... fuel.

Joe Rogan 10:32 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 10:32 Uh, so fires ... There's probably gonna-

Joe Rogan 10:33 You get a lot of those-

Maynard James Keenan 10:34 ... probably gonna be a pretty intense fire season.

Joe Rogan 10:36 I've been evacuated three times.

Maynard James Keenan 10:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:38 I got evacuated in October. It came real close, burnt three houses right in front of us. We, we were in the epicenter of that Woosley fire.

Maynard James Keenan 10:46 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 10:47 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 10:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:47 It was pretty crazy. It's, it's wi- ... But, you know, it sucks and it's terrible, but if you live through it, the thing that it, it lets you know is you're not your shit. You're not your stuff.

Maynard James Keenan 10:59 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:00 And-

Maynard James Keenan 11:00 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 11:00 When we left, you know, we had to wake our kids up at 2:00 in the morning, and I said to my wife, I'm like, "You know, it's all ... We're fine. We got to ex-" I'm just grabbing my laptop and some fucking underwear.

Maynard James Keenan 11:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:11 You know? You can go to a store and buy new pants. I'm like, "If you lose all your stuff, you're alive."

Maynard James Keenan 11:16 The only thing I know, um, I make sure I know where it's at is the, is the photo album.

Joe Rogan 11:20 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 11:20 Of all the photos that I haven't scanned-

Joe Rogan 11:22 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 11:22 ... or whatever is on my cloud or whatever. Grab the photo album and the dogs and then remember to grab the family.

Joe Rogan 11:27 Yeah, remember that.

Maynard James Keenan 11:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:29 That's important (laughs) . But yeah, it's like, uh, natural ... There's something crazy, but that's one of the things that I really do miss about, uh, living on the East Coast with the horrible winters, is that there's something comforting in the brutal force of nature that just forces you to recognize that you are helpless.

Maynard James Keenan 11:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:46 You're helpless to the blizzard.

Maynard James Keenan 11:48 Yeah. Michigan, I remember, you know, the drifts on the side of the road.

Joe Rogan 11:52 Fuck.

Maynard James Keenan 11:53 Five feet, 10 feet.

Joe Rogan 11:54 Yeah, it's crazy.

Maynard James Keenan 11:55 You still make it, you still make your way to school.

Joe Rogan 11:57 Yeah, you get there.

Maynard James Keenan 11:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:58 You get there. But it's p- there's something about p- ... People are so fucking cool when it, when it's really snowy. Like, everybody's more humble. They're like, "Oh, shit." It's like it puts you in your place.

Maynard James Keenan 12:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:08 It's good.

Maynard James Keenan 12:09 Yes.We, we talked a while ago. We were just talking about this, this idea of this, uh, sit-down. Remember I kind of talked about that a little bit?

Joe Rogan 12:23 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 12:23 Trying to figure out how to, like, how to do this. And of course, I'm so busy. Everything that, uh, with what I got going on, I- I would never be able to pull this off.

Joe Rogan 12:32 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 12:32 I would never be like, "Hey, I'm gonna be the executive producer on this idea that I had."

Joe Rogan 12:35 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 12:36 Um, so I thought this might be a good forum to go, "Hey, you and I tee ball it up to go, somebody run with this." 'Cause I think it, I think it's something that needs to happen, and we can take about five minutes to riff on what it shouldn't be.

Joe Rogan 12:52 Okay.

Maynard James Keenan 12:53 Right? 'Cause I think that's really the, that's kind of what it, uh, what it comes down to, is trying to make sure that we're not, it just doesn't turn into some other clickbait reality TV show.

Joe Rogan 13:02 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 13:02 Right? 'Cause that's not really the point of it.

Joe Rogan 13:04 So what are you thinking?

Maynard James Keenan 13:05 (inhales deeply) Okay. Well-

Joe Rogan 13:06 (sniffs) .

Maynard James Keenan 13:07 ... you and I were discussing, there's like all this stuff going on in the world, everybody's divided and, and freaking out, and, and, uh, going down the, the dopamine rabbit hole of, uh, of, you know, clickbait, and we can talk about that. Um.

Joe Rogan 13:18 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 13:20 I feel like the polarization of everybody, everybody has a position, they're taking up the stance-

Joe Rogan 13:24 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 13:24 ... and this cause. Um, and, you know, I get that. And to f- to feel connected, to feel like you're part of a movement, to, uh, for injustice, or whatever-

Joe Rogan 13:35 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 13:35 ... I, I completely get that you need to do that. But I think, at some point, when you start fighting with your neighbor, you start to kind of lose connection. And I think these things, man, these are just, they're a poison, uh, in terms of dividing people, and, and forgetting to have these conversations, uh, openly.

Joe Rogan 13:55 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 13:55 So the concept, we're like, we're gonna lay it out. The idea is that we find six different people from completely different backgrounds that have a very strong feeling about something that they feel strongly about. Just something, whatever it is. Um, and we get them on camera, or in writing, whatever. They state their, they state their position. And the idea is to get these people together, with each other, and not find, not talk about what they don't agree on. Find the things they agree on, and just build on the things that they can agree on.

Joe Rogan 14:33 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 14:34 And then, at the end of it, we go back and make sure we re-interview them, and the, the in, the way that they went into the thing, whatever their statement was about who they are doesn't change. They, they believe what they believe, but in that, without compromising the core of who they are, they end up finding, in somebody else, an agree to disagree position, where they can actually talk to each other and find out what they do like.

Joe Rogan 14:59 No, I th- I feel like one-on-one, in person, with no one around, people are much more likely to have those things.

Maynard James Keenan 15:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:06 The real problem is when it's being projected to the world, and you're looking for likes, and you're looking for people-

Maynard James Keenan 15:12 Oh.

Joe Rogan 15:12 ... to agree, you're looking for support, and that's one of the really toxic things about the phones and social media, is that everybody's playing for likes, and the virtue signaling, and the throwing up the, the flag of, of, of righteousness.

Maynard James Keenan 15:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:26 It's, it's so common.

Maynard James Keenan 15:27 And I, I'm just talking to a friend of mine, she's, uh, working with a young woman, doing a, uh, research paper on the very thing, and she kind of handed me some, some research, uh, that kind of, I kind of suspected, and I was like, "What about this, this, and this?" And kind of, not, uh, not off-topic, but kind of on-topic, uh, the purpose, when OxyContin first came out, was that they'd discovered, in that drug, something that interrupted and helped fix people who were, you know, meth/heroin addicts. It was helping them get sober and getting off the heroin, because it replaced that feeling that they were getting, the dopamine, womb-like feeling-

Joe Rogan 16:09 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 16:09 ... uh, that escapist thing, uh, that they were getting from heroin. So they would get, you know, use the OxyContin. (laughs) The problem is that, unless you cut your hands off, you can't, you're gonna take another one. So more than-

Joe Rogan 16:22 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 16:22 ... (laughs) you know, everybody's getting used to- So you just replaced the heroin with another thing that's like the dopamine dump, um, and this is, they're now finding that that whole process of likes and, uh, uh, m- uh, you know, validating or not validating, you know, that you get depressed 'cause nobody likes your post, and you're c- concerned with liking a rat, you know, basically the analogy of the, of the rat in the aquarium that's, keeps hitting the cocaine button.

Joe Rogan 16:50 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 16:51 It's the same thing. It affects the same part of your brain, um, and they're finding there's that absolute connection. So if you can't go 10 minutes without looking at your phone, you are an addict.

Joe Rogan 17:03 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 17:03 You have to understand that the actual chemical reaction in your body to the, to the charge you get on that, and the fact that it's fed by adjusted titles, whatever the headline is, if that's not getting it, they adjust the headline to see if it gets you now, and then you click on it, "Oh, that's the one," and then they adjust that one, and it's the, it's the rat hitting the cocaine button.

Joe Rogan 17:27 Well, I'm glad you used that analogy, because one of the things they found out about that, because some biologists didn't like the, they didn't, it didn't jive with them, the rats with the cocaine. So then, they thought about the environment that the rats lived in, and they said, "Well, let's look at this environment," 'cause these rats are in a cage. "This is a very unnatural environment. There's lights on. There's people staring at them." So instead, they put rats in a very rat-like environment, woody and grass and trees, and, uh, you know, a natural rat world.

Maynard James Keenan 17:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:54 Guess what? Rats didn't fuck with the coke. They left it alone.

Maynard James Keenan 17:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:58 They only hit the coke when they were just destroyed. Like, their life was-

Maynard James Keenan 18:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:03 ... top, turned upside-down, and they're living in this completely unnatural environment. They're living in prison.

Maynard James Keenan 18:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:08 So when you're in prison, you'll do the coke. But when they were in a very natural world, they didn't find it attractive at all.

Maynard James Keenan 18:15 Okay. So on that note-... I would suggest, uh, just the people who have now have read those things that I put up about the new album and everything. So I'm gonna request, I'm gonna beg people who have seen it now, I'm not sure where this is going live if it's going, you know, tonight it's gonna go up-

Joe Rogan 18:31 A couple of hours from now.

Maynard James Keenan 18:32 ... or it's gonna go tomorrow. Okay, great. I'm gonna beg as a favor to you and to me, uh, for people who read that news and are excited about that news, to do us all a favor. Turn your fucking phone off, turn your computer off, turn your TV off. Go for a long walk. Just go for a long walk somewhere even if it's in the mall or whatever, just go somewhere else. Go out. Go talk to a stranger and just find out something about them. No matter what it is, just go talk to somebody. Just get, go out of your house and go have a conversation with somebody.

Joe Rogan 19:10 You're gonna get people stabbed. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 19:11 Yeah, probably. Um, please don't-

Joe Rogan 19:13 Go talk to a stranger. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 19:14 Unless they have a knife.

Joe Rogan 19:15 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 19:15 And do not talk to them because they have a knife. Uh, did I, did that, does that cover the lawyers if I say that stuff?

Joe Rogan 19:21 Yes. Yeah, you don't wanna do anything illegal.

Maynard James Keenan 19:22 Do not approach violent unstable people.

Joe Rogan 19:24 Don't do anything dangerous.

Maynard James Keenan 19:25 Yeah, don't do anything dangerous but just go out. Just, just go out for a walk. Go-

Joe Rogan 19:30 You have, you have a family, you have young ones.

Maynard James Keenan 19:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Do you, uh, how do you approach that with the kids?

Maynard James Keenan 19:36 Well you can see, you can see the, the fight and the fury and the incrazy, the crazy meltdowns that we have with our five-year-old when we're saying, "It's time to come to dinner. Put your iPad down."

Joe Rogan 19:48 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 19:49 And it's an absolute fucking meltdown.

Joe Rogan 19:52 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 19:52 And it's insane.

Joe Rogan 19:54 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 19:54 And when we actually get it away from her and we take her away and go, and we have to explain, "Honey, this thing is not your family. We're your family. This thing doesn't care about you. The stuff on the other end of this thing doesn't care about you. We care about you. Let's go-"

Joe Rogan 20:07 Is she playing games?

Maynard James Keenan 20:08 "... let's go get the ducks." And we'll go get the ducks and then within five minutes she's forgotten about the iPad.

Joe Rogan 20:15 'Cause she's playing with ducks.

Maynard James Keenan 20:16 Now she's playing with ducks.

Joe Rogan 20:17 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 20:18 We're in the, you know, we're in the aviary with the finches-

Joe Rogan 20:20 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 20:20 ... and we're out checking the wine or we're checking the ferments or she comes down while we're trying to record music and she's like sitting on the bed listening to what we're doing.

Joe Rogan 20:27 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 20:27 She's involved in doing things and she forgets about this and you can't forget about this, I'm telling you. You can do it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:34 Yes, you can do it.

Maynard James Keenan 20:35 I use it for, you know, I use it for business but I try... I got caught up for a while there I would like find a video game on my phone, "Oh, I'm gonna play this video game." Before I knew it I've like spent like 500 bucks on, on the-

Joe Rogan 20:46 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 20:46 ... in-app purchases and shit and like wait a minute, I'm doing the exact same things that I did when I first started the game. It's no different, I just need better armor.

Joe Rogan 20:55 Those in-app pur-

Maynard James Keenan 20:55 And you gotta buy the armor. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:56 Those in-app purchases are the devil.

Maynard James Keenan 20:58 Yeah. So I delete, you know, I delete those things 'cause you just get caught up in it. There, you can't-

Joe Rogan 21:03 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 21:03 ... it's, it's something you don't... People don't realize how, and you've probably heard it with a bunch of people in here saying the same thing, like-

Joe Rogan 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 21:10 ... it's, it's rewiring the way that we think and the way we behave. Um-

Joe Rogan 21:14 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 21:15 ... and the only way to un- undo that or get away from it is to literally turn it off or unplug.

Joe Rogan 21:21 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 21:21 Just walk away. Go do something.

Joe Rogan 21:24 Well, I know so many people that have switched to s- uh, flip phones, a bunch of them. Uh, d- just like they have-

Maynard James Keenan 21:31 Drug dealers?

Joe Rogan 21:32 No. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 21:32 Joe?

Joe Rogan 21:33 Comics mostly.

Maynard James Keenan 21:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:34 They, they have a flip phone to make calls so someone can reach them-

Maynard James Keenan 21:38 So drug dealers? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:39 No. (laughs) And then they, they keep like a computer for the other stuff, or an iPad. Like Ari, my friend Ari, he, he, he'll... You can call him on his flip phone, he'll, he'll talk to you but if you text him you're making him do that fucking thumb thing that we used to have to do-

Maynard James Keenan 21:57 He hates you.

Joe Rogan 21:58 ... where you press four times to get an answer.

Maynard James Keenan 21:59 You end up be- being a part of a bit.

Joe Rogan 22:00 Yeah, you're a nightmare. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 22:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:03 And so he doesn't have any apps, there's none of that, but he'll do like Instagram and Twitter and shit on his iPad.

Maynard James Keenan 22:10 Okay.

Joe Rogan 22:11 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 22:11 That makes sense.

Joe Rogan 22:12 Yeah, it's the only way he does it.

Maynard James Keenan 22:13 Yeah. That makes sense.

Joe Rogan 22:14 It does make sense. It's like for him too, he's, he just recognizes that he can't... He'll, if he starts getting on it he'll, he'll be on it for seven, eight hours-

Maynard James Keenan 22:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:23 ... and then he'll be furious at himself like, "What the fuck have I done?"

Maynard James Keenan 22:25 And I've done the same thing. I mean even though I've got three bands and three wineries and a restaurant and all those things, I still waste, I end up wasting time on these things-

Joe Rogan 22:34 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 22:34 ... that I could get, I could get more done if I didn't have these things in my way.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Do you read comments?

Maynard James Keenan 22:40 I try not to, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:41 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 22:41 Because people... Well just because people are just, you know, they're just, they're, they need to have a voice and they need-

Joe Rogan 22:46 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 22:46 ... to be identified and they're just, there are a lot of mean-spirited things out there and that's... I feel like the world we're living in right now there's so much back and forth and there's so much posturing and there's so much disconnected, disconnected, disconnected behavior that you, we really just need people to reconnect with-

Joe Rogan 23:06 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 23:06 ... their loved ones, especially in your community 'cause as things are progressing in the world with the population and climate change which I believe are, there's some stuff coming, you need to connect with people. You really need to figure things out.

Joe Rogan 23:18 Do you think the shit's gonna hit the fan?

Maynard James Keenan 23:20 Yeah, I do.

Joe Rogan 23:20 Ooh.

Maynard James Keenan 23:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:21 When? How much time we have? Where should we go?

Maynard James Keenan 23:23 Uh, well I mean I thought you had some connection with these things too.

Joe Rogan 23:25 I'm gonna go north.

Maynard James Keenan 23:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 23:27 I'm gonna go to some wooded area.

Maynard James Keenan 23:28 All right, well you'll be fine. Um-

Joe Rogan 23:30 I think the, the move is-

Maynard James Keenan 23:30 I don't think it's gonna happen right now.

Joe Rogan 23:31 No.

Maynard James Keenan 23:31 I think, I think, and you know based on some of the things that I've kind of seen online and you know the, the chitchat and hearing, overhearing conversations with, uh, with people that are, you know, part of NASA and those kind of things and they kind of go, "We got 400 years and the planet's done."

Joe Rogan 23:47 Whoa.

Maynard James Keenan 23:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:48 400 years?

Maynard James Keenan 23:49 Yeah, so y- you, if you think in t- you know for me I'm, I'm a, I plan right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:54 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 23:54 I'm a planner. Uh, that means that if it's g- if it's, you know, if we're not here in 400 years well when s- when does that start? Well that started yesterday really, I mean when you think about it. There's natural resources and water source.

Joe Rogan 24:07 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 24:07 You know, it's all those things that start to kind of fall apart and then weird diseases start showing up and-

Joe Rogan 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 24:13 ... you know weird funguses that take you out that didn't before.

Joe Rogan 24:17 Well another thing to think is we have only been human for quarter million, 350,000 years whatever it is-... there's gonna be something next.

Maynard James Keenan 24:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:27 You know, we're, w- whatever it is, it's coming.

Maynard James Keenan 24:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:29 It's gonna be something that can survive the heat.

Maynard James Keenan 24:31 So, so if this stuff can figure out how to cool itself-

Joe Rogan 24:34 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 24:34 ... it'll become self-

Joe Rogan 24:35 Is that Ace Freely in the back of your phone?

Maynard James Keenan 24:36 It might, it may, it may be.

Joe Rogan 24:37 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 24:38 (laughs) Hey.

Joe Rogan 24:38 Starchild.

Maynard James Keenan 24:39 Hey.

Joe Rogan 24:40 That was huge H Fr- I met Ace Freely when I was seven years old.

Maynard James Keenan 24:43 Yeah, he's a completely stable, uh-

Joe Rogan 24:45 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 24:45 ... guy. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:46 For sure. He's a lot like you. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 24:49 Who thinks the world's gonna end in 400 years.

Joe Rogan 24:51 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 24:51 I'm such an idiot. Why did I say that out loud? Am I going to be the end of it?

Joe Rogan 24:53 I don't think that's a bad thing to t-

Maynard James Keenan 24:55 All right.

Joe Rogan 24:55 I don't think the world's gonna end, but I think it's very likely that human beings will be drastically-

Maynard James Keenan 24:59 Oh.

Joe Rogan 24:59 ... diminished.

Maynard James Keenan 24:59 Oh, absolutely. I, I, and I feel-

Joe Rogan 25:01 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:01 ... like that's, th- I guess I should back up.

Joe Rogan 25:03 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:03 That's my point. The, the thing that we just are so arrogant about is that we're somehow included in the future. We're just not included.

Joe Rogan 25:09 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 25:09 We're not included.

Joe Rogan 25:11 Well, f- we've only been here for, again, 300 whatever thousand years.

Maynard James Keenan 25:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:14 That's not that long.

Maynard James Keenan 25:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:16 You know?

Maynard James Keenan 25:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:16 I mean, even Neanderthals, it's h- have half a million years before us.

Maynard James Keenan 25:20 Okay. Right. So going back-

Joe Rogan 25:22 You know?

Maynard James Keenan 25:22 ... to now though-

Joe Rogan 25:22 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 25:23 ... and us getting along now and surviving better over the next little bit, going back to our like, the people talking to each other.

Joe Rogan 25:31 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:31 How do we, you know, (breathes deeply) how do we tee this up so, so we can take it and not r- ruin it with a reality TV show 'cause they, you know, that, every reality TV show you see, it's been manipulated.

Joe Rogan 25:42 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 25:42 You know, they'll-

Joe Rogan 25:43 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:43 ... they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll poke the person that they know is gonna blow up at some point so that it causes drama, and again, the dopamine dump, and everybody's, "Oh, my God."

Joe Rogan 25:51 Yeah, they're basically doing clickbait-

Maynard James Keenan 25:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:52 ... in terms of how they're programming the television show.

Maynard James Keenan 25:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:54 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:54 So how do we, how do we make this so that it's not, uh, an opportunity to make a buck and to do that, like, the, a, a genuine healing moment?

Joe Rogan 26:05 It can be done. I think it's gotta be done online. And it's gotta be done with no one involved other than you and whoever you want to be involved.

Maynard James Keenan 26:13 I know. I wanna have anything to do with it.

Joe Rogan 26:13 No advertising, no peop- but m- m- I mean-

Maynard James Keenan 26:16 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:16 ... that doesn't even have to be you.

Maynard James Keenan 26:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:17 But whoever the person is-

Maynard James Keenan 26:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:19 ... that, that facilitates this.

Maynard James Keenan 26:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:22 But you just can't have any producers, you can't have anybody with a vested interest in its success.

Maynard James Keenan 26:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 26:28 It has to be done just purely for the idea, purely for the exercise of getting people to communicate that have disagreements, and realizing that so much of w- we know people dig their heels in the sand, and they, they want to be right more than they wanna be-

Maynard James Keenan 26:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:45 ... you know, more than they wanna get along and be harmonious with each other.

Maynard James Keenan 26:50 Right. There's a, there, yeah, and I feel like that's-

Joe Rogan 26:53 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 26:53 No, look, I, I acknowledge, uh, that there's monsters in the world. There's fucking monsters. They're in, they're in, they're in us.

Joe Rogan 26:59 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 26:59 We have our own monsters inside of us. There's other monsters that have been nurtured over years to, to hate each other or hate somebody else, whatever. There's that nurturing, you know, nature versus nurture, uh, monster. I get that. I'm talking about the people that you can figure out a way to like, let's just, let's figure this out.

Joe Rogan 27:15 Most of us.

Maynard James Keenan 27:16 Yes, most of us can figure out a way to get along.

Joe Rogan 27:17 And most of us can go south too, most of us in the wrong environment with the wrong people and the wrong feelings and the wrong drugs and the wrong jobs and the wrong community. We could be horrific neighbors or-

Maynard James Keenan 27:30 Hitting the coke button.

Joe Rogan 27:30 Yeah, or we could be a part of a community. And I just think that we're not designed for this l- iPhone fucking world. We're not designed for it. And this getting likes and, you know, and arguing politics on Twitter for 16 hours a day. There's a few people that I follow on Twitter-

Maynard James Keenan 27:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:49 ... that I only follow them to see how, how toxic social media is to their life. I go and I, I look at their feed and, I mean, I know what they're doing, they're just fighting with people all the time. But I'll, I'll look at it, I'm like, "Jesus Christ, this guy started at 7:30 in the morning, and at 9:30 at night he's still going, and he's posting every 14 minutes, and he's probably reading in between that." So his entire day is comprised of debating, you know, AOC's value and merits versus Trump and versus this and that, and whether or not Elizabeth Warren's Native American.

Maynard James Keenan 28:24 Who's-

Joe Rogan 28:24 And it's like a chaos, just chaos.

Maynard James Keenan 28:26 Trump.

Joe Rogan 28:27 Trump is a, um, (clicks tongue) he was, he's got his name on buildings and, um-

Maynard James Keenan 28:33 Oh.

Joe Rogan 28:33 ... he's the host of a reality show.

Maynard James Keenan 28:34 Oh, he's the, he's the, the politician.

Joe Rogan 28:36 He's not really a politician.

Maynard James Keenan 28:37 Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't really like-

Joe Rogan 28:38 He's draining the swamp. Do you know what the swamp does?

Maynard James Keenan 28:40 I'm, I'm not a big fan of politicians.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Me neither.

Maynard James Keenan 28:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:42 But he's an anti-politician though. You might like him.

Maynard James Keenan 28:44 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 28:45 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 28:45 But is he in politics?

Joe Rogan 28:47 Well, he's the president of the United States.

Maynard James Keenan 28:48 Yeah, I don't like politicians.

Joe Rogan 28:50 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 28:50 You know? So ...

Joe Rogan 28:51 Is anybody good at that? Who, if you, if you had a magic wand, you could make someone president, who would you make it?

Maynard James Keenan 28:57 Oh, man. Um, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 29:01 Do you have a guy, do you have a guy from the past?

Maynard James Keenan 29:02 I wouldn't, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Joe Rogan 29:04 Harold Guthrie?

Maynard James Keenan 29:04 Yeah, Guthrie. Uh, not Bill Hicks.

Joe Rogan 29:07 Ken Kesey?

Maynard James Keenan 29:08 Um, although he would, 'cause that would probably change him. Um-

Joe Rogan 29:11 Do you think it would?

Maynard James Keenan 29:13 Yeah, I think it changes everyone.

Joe Rogan 29:14 It e- again, it's like, it's a reality TV show. It's gonna change you when the cameras are aimed at you.

Maynard James Keenan 29:17 Mm-hmm. When you, when you replace recognition with attention, it fucks you up.

Joe Rogan 29:22 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 29:23 Especially like at a young age, a young, you know, like the boy, you know, the young boy band-

Joe Rogan 29:26 Oh, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 29:26 ... like child actors-

Joe Rogan 29:27 Do you know anybody that's a child actor?

Maynard James Keenan 29:29 Uh, I, yeah. I, I mean, I know people that are exposed to that world early on, and it's a, it's a dreadful mess. It's a dreadful mess what they have to go through, 'cause they don't understand that attention is not recognition.

Joe Rogan 29:40 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 29:40 Uh, and we also-

Joe Rogan 29:41 Well, there's development. There's development.

Maynard James Keenan 29:42 Well, there's developing in

Speaker 29:43 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 29:43 ... a few people that have actually made, made it out of that. Like-

Joe Rogan 29:46 I don't think anybody has.

Maynard James Keenan 29:47 Leonardo DiCaprio, I feel like he's still an artist, right?

Joe Rogan 29:50 (laughs) Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 29:50 He's like, he actually-

Joe Rogan 29:51 I guess, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 29:51 ... he actually, he, he holds his own-

Joe Rogan 29:53 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 29:53 ... as an artist.

Joe Rogan 29:54 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 29:54 I don't know what he's like behind the scenes in his house.

Joe Rogan 29:57 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 29:57 If he's, he's doing like fucking shredding cats with his teeth 'cause he's, uh, out of his mind.

Joe Rogan 30:01 Ah, it would come out by now.

Maynard James Keenan 30:02 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 30:03 The worst thing he does, he seems to like to fuck young pretty girls.

Maynard James Keenan 30:06 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Which is weird.

Maynard James Keenan 30:07 Yeah. Uh.

Joe Rogan 30:09 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 30:09 I just, I feel like, I feel like that, that poison of, of the attention is, is kinda like that, it's like that dopamine dump.

Joe Rogan 30:17 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 30:17 It's the same thing, it's the likes, the like buttons. Right?

Joe Rogan 30:19 Well, it's one of the things that I really admire about your choices, that you decided to get the fuck out of the, the epicenter.

Maynard James Keenan 30:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:25 You're like, this is just too much gravity.

Maynard James Keenan 30:27 Yeah, there's too much. There's too much. Um-

Joe Rogan 30:31 And just-

Maynard James Keenan 30:31 It's wonderful.

Joe Rogan 30:31 ... that's ... And also, like, the, the decision to start a winery and to, like ... What you've done is kind of gone to the earth. I mean, uh, I mean it sounds corny, but really what you've done is that. I mean, y- obviously you have a very sophisticated farm system and you, you know, you have acres and acres of vineyards, but what you're doing is the earth. You're growing ... You're, you're a part of nature. And I think that grounding in nature in, in that way that you're doing it is a perfect anecdote for, like, this rock star life, which is all-

Maynard James Keenan 31:05 But, I mean, you know-

Joe Rogan 31:06 ... chaos.

Maynard James Keenan 31:07 ... that's, that's a byproduct, uh, I think, for me. But as far as the community, I'm finding that that core of, of the greenhouses and, um, you know, growing, growing vines, it's actually ... kind of feeds into what we're talking about as far as the conversation because I talk to, I talk to batshit Portlandia types. I tal- ... You know, I talk-

Joe Rogan 31:28 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 31:28 ... to crystal clutchers. I talk to-

Joe Rogan 31:30 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 31:30 ... staunch Republicans that, you know, look at me like I'm gonna start trouble no matter what.

Joe Rogan 31:35 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 31:35 You know. But I can actually talk to everybody because we're, we're growing things and we're building a small ... We're building our community. So as far as politicians are concerned, the ones higher up, they got there by being really good con men and liars, I feel like-

Joe Rogan 31:51 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 31:51 ... uh, in general. That's what we see. But down, you know, at this level, at the local level, you're just trying to figure out simple problems that you're trying to solve within your state, within your county, within your town. Those politicians are ... You know, you gotta work with them, but they're less crazy. They're less, um, owned.

Joe Rogan 32:09 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 32:10 As it were.

Joe Rogan 32:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 32:11 So you can actually have conversations with all these people, especially if you have a grounding in terms of literally the ground.

Joe Rogan 32:18 Yeah, literally the ground. I mean, you're ... There's ... I just think there's something s- ... It's, it's a part of the whole human experience of growing things.

Maynard James Keenan 32:28 Yeah. I agree.

Joe Rogan 32:30 Yeah. I mean, I think what you've done is pretty badass. It's the ultimate smart move, you know, in terms of, like, dealing with th- ... Especially, like, the rock star world is so strange because it's so image-based with so many. You know, I mean, there's a bunch that don't even wanna talk. I've had, I've had rock stars that wanted to come on here, but they wanted to only do it at night, and they only wanted to-

Maynard James Keenan 32:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:53 ... have it with, uh, no video. They wanted it to be audio only. And I'm like, "Look, look, look, look, look, look, look." (inhales) "We don't have to do this."

Maynard James Keenan 33:00 "I want steak, I just don't want it to be meat."

Joe Rogan 33:02 Yeah. Well, they ... It was like they were cultivating a thing. "It has to be dark in the room. I want candles." Like, "Okay, I'm out. We're out. We're d- we're gone." This is not-

Maynard James Keenan 33:11 Yeah, that's not ... But, you know, y- uh, yeah, remember that they probably ... They were probably messed up. The reason they're-

Joe Rogan 33:18 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 33:18 ... the reason they're doing what they're doing is because something happened to them earlier on, whether it was like, you know-

Joe Rogan 33:24 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 33:24 ... an aggressive, you know, teacher, uncle, somebody that just kind of ... you know, a dad who was drunk. You know, there's the stuff that pushes them in that direction, uh, to be, you know, expressive-

Joe Rogan 33:37 Controlling. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 33:38 ... contro- ... Yeah, controlling and, you know, wanting to be acknowledged and do it exactly my way-

Joe Rogan 33:44 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 33:45 ... because I was powerless as a child.

Joe Rogan 33:47 Yeah, for sure, right? And then that's a thing you th- you see with actors too when they finally get some success. The, the, the whole process of auditioning for things is so brutal because you just, "Do you like me? Do you like me? I want you to like me."

Maynard James Keenan 33:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:59 "Do I get the part?"

Maynard James Keenan 34:00 It's hard.

Joe Rogan 34:01 "I don't get the part, I don't. Ugh." And then, uh, you go through this for years and then finally you do get it, and then finally you're the fucking man. Like, "Oh, look-

Maynard James Keenan 34:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:08 ... it's Mike. Mike's the star. Hello, Mike. Mike, look, look, we, we got your, your bagels ready, Mike, and your trailers ready." And then Mike is, uh, "G- g- get me a fucking coffee." Like, "Oh, Mike, anything for you." And the ... People act in this r- disproportionate, very insane way. And then as they get more and more famous, they, they feel like they're entitled-

Maynard James Keenan 34:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 34:28 ... to this treatment-

Maynard James Keenan 34:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 34:29 ... which gets real strange.

Maynard James Keenan 34:30 Yes. Oh ... You know, w- ... And that ... And I, and I feel like that's ... I've seen it in, in our world, uh, with- between bands. You know, my bands, Tool, Pussurfer, Perfect Circle. All of them-

Joe Rogan 34:40 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 34:40 ... you get to, you get to spots where you, you feel entitled, you're arrogant, you are greedy. Like, all those things, all those things are in all of us, and you have to check yourself when they come up-

Joe Rogan 34:50 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 34:50 ... or not. And you end up being like the bands that you, you are talking about.

Joe Rogan 34:54 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 34:55 Like, "It has to be this way or I won't do it." That's kinda dumb, but-

Joe Rogan 34:58 Well, bands are odd too, right? Because you're, you're managing personalities. You're not just ... It's not just, like, one person with a creative vision and they put it down. You have all these other people and their ideas, and you gotta work it out together. And there's all sorts of weird shit going on, right?

Maynard James Keenan 35:19 Sorry.

Joe Rogan 35:20 What'd you do? You shut it off?

Maynard James Keenan 35:21 I was checking my likes.

Joe Rogan 35:22 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 35:23 Um ... (laughs) No, I was just making sure 'cause I posted that. And Dino asked. I just wanted to make sure Dino knew that, that-

Joe Rogan 35:31 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 35:31 ... we posted it 'cause then he can talk to, um-

Joe Rogan 35:33 Release the hounds.

Maynard James Keenan 35:34 Yeah, release the hounds.

Joe Rogan 35:36 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 35:37 Um, fuck. Let that weight lifted off my chest, dude. Like, just to know that-

Joe Rogan 35:40 Is it?

Maynard James Keenan 35:40 Yeah, yeah. It took ... That's a lot of work. Our, our ... We are ... The four of us are a lot of fucking work. And just to get-

Joe Rogan 35:47 Just to get it-

Maynard James Keenan 35:47 Just to get anywhere-

Joe Rogan 35:49 Agreement.

Maynard James Keenan 35:49 Oh my god.

Joe Rogan 35:49 Just to get an agreement where you're ... "Okay, we're all agreeing."

Maynard James Keenan 35:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:53 "We're gonna release it."

Maynard James Keenan 35:54 Yeah. Everything's a fucking committee meeting, and it always gets shut down.

Joe Rogan 35:58 (laughs) What's the hurdle?

Maynard James Keenan 36:01 Uh, well, uh, success. You know, when you get-

Joe Rogan 36:05 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 36:05 ... successful, you think you're right about everything.

Joe Rogan 36:07 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 36:08 And you're pretty sure as that individual, you know, I am right and you are wrong because I'm successful. And we're successful because of me, not because of you. And so you-

Joe Rogan 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 36:17 It's, it's not that bad with us.

Joe Rogan 36:18 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 36:18 But I'm just ... It's ... I-

Joe Rogan 36:20 But that's the dynamic.

Maynard James Keenan 36:20 Yeah, there's a dynamic-

Joe Rogan 36:21 The people.

Maynard James Keenan 36:22 ... of like, you know, "I want this and I've, I've always gotten my way, and that's why we're successful is because I don't compromise on this or that." And it's like-... I, you know, I'm, I'm the same way. I'm just totally the same way.

Joe Rogan 36:32 Do you find that as a parent you sort of have more empathy for, like, fucked up behavior and thinking? Because you kind of understand like, oh, you, you got bad data as a, a developing unit.

Maynard James Keenan 36:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:46 You were fed the wrong food, or the wrong information rather, you know, the wrong mental-

Maynard James Keenan 36:51 I think-

Joe Rogan 36:51 ... food.

Maynard James Keenan 36:52 ... we, I think we discussed this before. Like, I think there's a 50/50 on that.

Joe Rogan 36:55 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 36:55 Like, you can, you can only guide your kids so much. They're gonna be-

Joe Rogan 36:58 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 36:58 ... what they're gonna be. They're gonna grow up the way they wanna grow up.

Joe Rogan 37:01 Mm-hmm. But you can-

Maynard James Keenan 37:01 All you can try to do is go like, "Okay, let's just teach you about stoves before you actually have to learn about stoves."

Joe Rogan 37:07 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 37:07 The wrong way.

Joe Rogan 37:08 So they don't light the house on fire.

Maynard James Keenan 37:09 That's it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:10 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 37:10 So you can kind of do some of that stove work early, but eventually they're gonna have to do some of that stove work on their own.

Joe Rogan 37:16 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 37:16 But, uh, an instructor in our high school, which is funny because like, you know, we are... he's extreme Republican, I'm, you know, the Liberal kid. But, um, he used to share a lot of really, you know, nuggets, right, uh, wisdom. Uh, and he would always have us say, you know, "What is an intelligent person? A person who learns from experience." Whose experience? Other people's experience.

Joe Rogan 37:40 Right. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 37:41 Not just your own.

Joe Rogan 37:42 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 37:43 Learn from your own experiences, but also pay attention (laughs) that you don't really need to play Russian roulette to find out it ends wrong.

Joe Rogan 37:49 Don't get close to the bison at Yellowstone.

Maynard James Keenan 37:51 (laughs) Don't try to get a selfie with the bison.

Joe Rogan 37:54 You see that video?

Maynard James Keenan 37:55 No. Was it awful?

Joe Rogan 37:56 Nine-year-old kid, the whole fucking family, they had apparently got within five yards of this fucking bison.

Maynard James Keenan 38:02 No, they... Oh, come on, man.

Joe Rogan 38:04 Yes. And then the bison charged, the nine-year-old kid went flying through the air. The thing about the nine-year-old kid landing, though, it seems like she landed on her feet, so I'm hoping she's okay. Haven't read anything to the contrary.

Maynard James Keenan 38:14 Okay.

Joe Rogan 38:14 So in my mind, she brushed it off and she's like, "Whoo, can't believe I flipped like that."

Maynard James Keenan 38:18 Well, I mean, it's like a, you know, if she survived, maybe a broken bone would be a good reminder.

Joe Rogan 38:23 Yeah. Sprained ankle.

Maynard James Keenan 38:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 38:25 I want the kid to have a sprained ankle.

Maynard James Keenan 38:26 Yes. Just-

Joe Rogan 38:26 But that's not... I don't even want the kid, I want the fucking parent to get one, one of those weird diseases where like, when a twin falls down, you hurt-

Maynard James Keenan 38:33 Bison disease?

Joe Rogan 38:34 No.

Maynard James Keenan 38:34 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 38:34 It's like-

Maynard James Keenan 38:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:36 Mom's got... Here it is. Watch, we'll show you. This bison just... Look at the, the newscaster.

Maynard James Keenan 38:41 Boom!

Joe Rogan 38:42 See how she lands on her feet, though?

Maynard James Keenan 38:43 Yeah. Come on.

Joe Rogan 38:43 I'm, I'm pretty sure she's okay. Watch this. Whoop, bang. I think she's all right.

Speaker 38:47 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 38:48 I think she's all right. The thing is, did it trample her after? Look at these fucking assholes. This is the problem with zoos. People in, in this city life that we live, where people do not know what the fuck a wild animal really is.

Maynard James Keenan 39:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:03 You're not supposed to go anywhere near those things.

Maynard James Keenan 39:05 We're gonna find out.

Joe Rogan 39:06 They have instincts to stop predation, and their instinct is to charge headforth with this fucking 200...

Maynard James Keenan 39:13 With the dude with a red shirt too, like, didn't you watch? It was funny.

Joe Rogan 39:17 Asshole. Yeah, you should've juked him. Should've stepped in for the little kid, you piece of shit.

Maynard James Keenan 39:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:23 Come over here, you fuck.

Maynard James Keenan 39:25 All right.

Joe Rogan 39:25 I mean, it's a 2,000 pound gigantic animal that has to fight off wolves and mountain lions and bears. And, and-

Maynard James Keenan 39:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:31 ... you're gonna have your kid five yards away from it?

Maynard James Keenan 39:34 I, I, you know, we've had a lot of friends, musician friends that go, "Yeah, I want to come out, man. I want to work harvest." You really don't.

Joe Rogan 39:41 No, you don't want to work.

Maynard James Keenan 39:42 You really don't want to do that.

Joe Rogan 39:43 Stop.

Maynard James Keenan 39:44 I mean, I want you to, and I can make it a pleasant experience for you. I, I absolutely can. I can make it go fairly seamless. But you're gonna learn some things you didn't know about yourself, fact.

Joe Rogan 39:53 Well, you have to work hours.

Maynard James Keenan 39:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:56 Real hours.

Maynard James Keenan 39:57 Yeah. That's why, that's why we can't go to dinner tonight. We've got apples waiting. I've got... I have some Chardonnay already fermenting and-

Joe Rogan 40:02 You have apples?

Maynard James Keenan 40:03 Yeah, I'm gonna make cider in the morning. That's what we're gonna do.

Joe Rogan 40:05 So what do you do? You pick the apples now to make cider in the morning?

Maynard James Keenan 40:08 Yeah, I have it all... I have about 40 trees. My dad and, uh, Randy, uh, she's kind of in charge of the orchards and vineya-... uh, greenhouses. You saw the... You saw some of the greenhouse footage.

Joe Rogan 40:17 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 40:17 Yeah, Randy's doing that. Uh, so my dad and her, uh, picked probably about a half a ton, maybe a ton of apples already off our trees. So when I get back, uh, you know, tonight. I fly back tonight and then, um, in the morning, uh, we're shredding, shredding apples into a bin, like apple sauce, and gonna inoculate it, and uh-

Joe Rogan 40:35 Inoculate it with what?

Maynard James Keenan 40:37 Uh, I have... I already have some Chardonnay that's fermenting, so I'll take like a gallon of, of the Chardonnay and just put it in with the, with the apples, so that it'll just start the fermentation.

Joe Rogan 40:44 So like bacteria from the Chardonnay?

Maynard James Keenan 40:47 Yeast.

Joe Rogan 40:47 Yeast?

Maynard James Keenan 40:47 The yeast is already fermenting, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:49 Wow, that's badass.

Maynard James Keenan 40:50 Yeah. So I just... I'll inoculate it with something that's already... It's a wild yeast that's already fermenting. And so put it in with those, let it, let it, uh, finish up.

Joe Rogan 40:58 And do you do this at a stable temperature? Like, does it have to be-

Maynard James Keenan 41:02 We'd norm-

Joe Rogan 41:02 Is there a range?

Maynard James Keenan 41:02 ... we normally keep the cider... we've been kind of keeping it like, you know, 70, 68 in a, in a cool room.

Joe Rogan 41:09 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 41:09 Not out in the sun hot and not back in the cold, cold, cold room. Kind of, you know, 60... between 65 and 72.

Joe Rogan 41:15 Like, how much cider will you make with all that e-... How much did you say?

Maynard James Keenan 41:19 We did-

Joe Rogan 41:19 Half a ton?

Maynard James Keenan 41:20 We did... Well, we're gonna have-

Joe Rogan 41:21 So you have 1,000 pounds?

Maynard James Keenan 41:21 ... there's more, there's more, there's more apples coming. So we'll have... We'll probably end up with a, about eight barrels worth of cider. Eight-... uh, and that's about, good Lord, 200 cases. No, it's about 300 cans. You know, like, uh, 300, uh, 300 flats of cans. So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:42 So it's fairly limited production in terms of like-

Maynard James Keenan 41:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:44 ... commercially?

Maynard James Keenan 41:45 Oh, yeah, I wouldn't-

Joe Rogan 41:46 Yeah?

Maynard James Keenan 41:46 It's not gonna be commercial. It'll just be in our tasting rooms.

Joe Rogan 41:48 Oh, that's cool.

Maynard James Keenan 41:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:50 Wow. And so how long is the process? How long does it have to ferment?

Maynard James Keenan 41:55 Well, once we're... once they're picked, we can actually... The cool thing about apples is they kind of keep... kind of just kind of stack them up in the, in the, in the walk-in cooler, uh, on site. And then we gather them all up when there's a critical mass, bring them in, shred them. So that day I'll shred them, probably about a week and a half later the fermentation's done. The hard part is separating the, the, uh, apple sauce from, uh, the juice. Uh, that's, that's the hard part. So a lot of people get them super ripe and they, they crush and press them so they just get the juice right off the must, then they ferment just the juice. Other people will shred them so there's just like apple sauce, and then they'll try to press that through a very specific press that kind of gets the juice away from the must.

Joe Rogan 42:36 What's the benefit of the former versus the latter?

Maynard James Keenan 42:38 I do the third one.

Joe Rogan 42:39 Oh.

Maynard James Keenan 42:40 I make it, I shred it so there's apple sauce, and I'm actually fermenting on the a-... on the must, on the apple sauce.

Joe Rogan 42:45 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 42:46 Uh, and then I press... As it starts to separate, I'm starting to pull the juice out, uh, once it's fermented.

Joe Rogan 42:52 Now, have you done this because you tried the other methods and you like the flavor of this one better?

Maynard James Keenan 42:56 Uh, so how many times you've guess... I guess I've done this?

Joe Rogan 43:00 ... 40?

Maynard James Keenan 43:01 Right. That's because I'm a liar, um, and I'm good at it.

Joe Rogan 43:06 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 43:06 Um, no, I've done it once, uh, and, uh, it turned out, so because I wanna make sure that that wasn't an accident-

Joe Rogan 43:14 Oh.

Maynard James Keenan 43:14 ... I'm gonna do it exactly like I did it last time to see if it turns out the same.

Joe Rogan 43:19 And when you did it, did you do it based on someone's recommendation or did you have a, someone guiding you through it?

Maynard James Keenan 43:24 I did it based on my f- uh, my experiences with fermenting, uh, grapes on skins.

Joe Rogan 43:28 Really? Wow, so you just-

Maynard James Keenan 43:29 Yeah, I just kinda looked at that process and went, "Okay. I see how we're gonna get some stuff." And our, and our cider is extremely dry. It's not a, it's not a sweet cider you normally would think of, like slightly sweet cider. This is like a, uh, ac- acidic, uh, dry cider, very refreshing.

Joe Rogan 43:45 And is this a cider that's available at your restaurant?

Maynard James Keenan 43:48 Yeah, at The Osteria, down in Scottsdale at the, uh, American Vineyards location in Scottsdale, and at the Caduceus Cellars Tasting Room, and the Pulsifer Store in the 4A.

Joe Rogan 43:56 If someone, w- where would, like where would I go? Where would I go if I wanted to try your food and drink your wine? Like what's the spot?

Maynard James Keenan 44:03 Um.

Joe Rogan 44:03 Where would you recommend?

Maynard James Keenan 44:04 Well, the easiest place for you-

Joe Rogan 44:05 If I wanted to take a trip.

Maynard James Keenan 44:05 ... if you wanted to take a long trip, you wanna go up to, up to Jerome and, uh, Cottonwood area to go to those locations. There's three locations of-

Joe Rogan 44:13 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 44:13 ... different things happening in each one of those. But if you're just kinda in Phoenix area, we have a location over in Scottsdale, in Old Town Scottsdale.

Joe Rogan 44:21 Oh, I'm definitely in Phoenix. When am I in Phoenix? I've got t- I've got two nights-

Speaker 44:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:25 ... in Phoenix at the Comerica Theatre.

Maynard James Keenan 44:29 There you go. So there, you're gonna hit-

Joe Rogan 44:30 That's like, uh, soon.

Maynard James Keenan 44:31 ... y- you're gonna hit Pizzeria Bianco. You have to hit there. You gotta get Southern Rail, uh, Beckett's Table.

Joe Rogan 44:36 December? Oh.

Maynard James Keenan 44:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:38 I thought that was like-

Speaker 44:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:39 ... soon.

Maynard James Keenan 44:40 Beckett's Table, Southern Rail, uh, Tarbell's, uh, FNB, which is in Scottsdale. Um-

Joe Rogan 44:47 Scottsdale has a reputation for cocaine and parties.

Maynard James Keenan 44:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:51 But it's also got great food.

Maynard James Keenan 44:53 Yes. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 44:53 It's got a, it's a very interesting place. It's got-

Maynard James Keenan 44:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 44:56 It's, a lot of people just, uh, have escaped some of the problems in other cities and gone to Scottsdale.

Maynard James Keenan 45:02 That is a fact, yes.

Joe Rogan 45:04 It's a weird place. I've always found it real weird.

Maynard James Keenan 45:06 Yeah. Yeah, I've found, we had a, we had, we had some decent success up in the Valley, like with the vibe that we got with the farms, you know, farm to table, not just any farm, our farms to your-

Joe Rogan 45:14 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 45:14 ... table, uh, vibe. And the, you know, our vines to your glass, uh, scenario. But it's funny (laughs) down in Scottsdale, like, "Okay, this is gonna go. We did it." And we're like, "We're gonna need more makeup."

Joe Rogan 45:25 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 45:27 "I'm gonna need implants on this."

Joe Rogan 45:28 Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Maynard James Keenan 45:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:30 There's a, it's a weird party town in that way.

Maynard James Keenan 45:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:33 It's like a lot of really pretty women, but the specific kinda pretty, like porn star pretty.

Maynard James Keenan 45:38 The, the dudes are super pretty, too, though.

Joe Rogan 45:40 They're pretty, too.

Maynard James Keenan 45:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:40 Yeah. Handsome, spiked hair. Oh, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 45:43 Oh, yeah. They got the f-

Joe Rogan 45:43 Tan, jacked and tan.

Maynard James Keenan 45:45 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:46 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 45:46 You guys tan any good? You should check into it.

Joe Rogan 45:48 Motorcycles, no helmet. Living on the edge.

Maynard James Keenan 45:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:53 Go out on the mountain.

Maynard James Keenan 45:53 Yes, I mean, if you're gonna be in Scottsdale, it's a great location. But there's so many, there's so many great, uh, chefs and restaurants in the-

Joe Rogan 45:59 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 46:00 ... in that, in that area. Uh-

Joe Rogan 46:01 There really are, it's-

Maynard James Keenan 46:02 ... in downtown. And if you're gonna be at Comerica, you're, you're right by Bianco's. You gotta go to Bianco's.

Joe Rogan 46:05 Bianco's, what is that? Is that an Italian joint? Sounds like-

Maynard James Keenan 46:08 Uh, Pizzeria, Pizzeria Bianco.

Joe Rogan 46:09 Oh, okay.

Maynard James Keenan 46:09 Yeah, Chris Bianco. Um, he's got two locations, Town and Country, and then he's got one downtown, but he also has his other place. Oh my God, I'm gonna forget the name right now. That's so dumb. I'm so, I'm gonna get so much shit for this. Uh, his other place. And, uh, right next to-

Joe Rogan 46:24 Oh, the other place.

Maynard James Keenan 46:24 ... right next to (laughs) Bianco's at Town and Country. Oh my God, I'm having a brain fart. It's great. Uh, handmade pastas, and the dishes are amazing, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:34 I'll check in with you in December.

Maynard James Keenan 46:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:36 Maybe you'll remember it. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 46:37 If I remember it by then. Gotta get off this CBD oil, man.

Joe Rogan 46:40 It's, man, it's rotting your brain, man. You can't be too relaxed.

Maynard James Keenan 46:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:44 Yeah. That CBD fucking, it saves vacations for me. I don't, I stress out. Like, it, it's, it's, it's ... I think it's one of the best things I've ever tried for anxiety. It's, it's weird. And I didn't even know I had anxiety until I started taking CBD. I take these little jammies. These are, this is, uh, this'll fuck you up though. This is one and one.

Maynard James Keenan 47:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:05 This is one part CBD, one-

Maynard James Keenan 47:07 Don't put this in your butt.

Joe Rogan 47:08 Yeah, just-

Maynard James Keenan 47:08 Do not put this in your butt.

Joe Rogan 47:09 You can put it in your butt, but you will get n- nervous. You're gonna get paranoid. But it's a, it's a weird, like the CBD/THC high is a different high. Because CBD does something to alleviate anxiety. It sort of just like makes you comfortable with your own demise.

Maynard James Keenan 47:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:26 It lets you-

Maynard James Keenan 47:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:27 You, you, the existential angst is the-

Maynard James Keenan 47:29 The flames don't seem so hot.

Joe Rogan 47:31 Yeah. It's all, you're like, "Yeah, we're all gonna die."

Maynard James Keenan 47:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:33 "Yeah, but right now's, we're not dead. Cool, look at the colors. Let's feel the, feel the warmth of the sun."

Maynard James Keenan 47:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:41 But this, uh, this is not like fun- this is not functional. Like you don't wanna, I don't do this if I have anything super important to do. But, but just CBD oil.

Maynard James Keenan 47:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:50 I just find it, it did, puts you in a great place.

Maynard James Keenan 47:54 Okay.

Joe Rogan 47:54 Like it's-

Maynard James Keenan 47:55 But internal, not topical.

Joe Rogan 47:57 Internal.

Maynard James Keenan 47:57 Internal.

Joe Rogan 47:57 Yeah, topical's really good for muscle aches.

Maynard James Keenan 47:59 Okay.

Joe Rogan 47:59 It's really good. Really, the, probably the best thing I've ever found for like a l- alleviating soreness and stiffness and stuff like that.

Maynard James Keenan 48:06 'Cause I found, I was, uh, in Europe, all of a sudden discovered that they actually had, uh, ibuprofen like cream to put on-

Joe Rogan 48:13 Ibuprofen's terrible for you.

Maynard James Keenan 48:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 48:15 Really, really bad for you.

Maynard James Keenan 48:16 And what I found out was that if you let your pets lick it, they get liver failure and die.

Joe Rogan 48:22 Whoa.

Maynard James Keenan 48:23 So don't use-

Joe Rogan 48:24 Did you a- accidentally do that?

Maynard James Keenan 48:25 No, I had a, I had a, a person who works at the Humane Society. I mentioned, you know, mentioned that I found this stuff, and like I just, in desperation in Europe, like had some sore muscles. And, uh, she's like, "Don't let your pets lick that," 'cause they were trying to, trying to figure out why these kittens were dying.

Joe Rogan 48:40 Oh, God. My friend Cameron Hanes is a runner, and he runs marathons and he runs ultra-marathons. He runs these 240-mile Moab, fucking ridiculous-... m- m- runs that last three days. And he was having, like, all this joint pain. So he was taking ibuprofen every day of his life, taking 800 milligrams not just once, but sometimes twice a day.

Maynard James Keenan 49:02 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 49:02 And he was just constant aches and pains. So Dr. Rhonda Patrick had been on the podcast, she was talking about the dangers of ibuprofen and about what it does to your gut biome and how- how much it fucks you up. And it actually creates inflammation, and it actually can cause stress, or it can cause, uh, strokes, rather, and all- all sorts of horrible, horrible things. So I call him up and I said, "Hey, man. That- that stuff's fine to take every now and then for a headache, but you can't take that shit every day. You just can't do it and you're- you're fucking your body up. Just get off of it." And I sent him the recording, he listened to it, he's like, "Jesus Christ, I don't wanna have a stroke." So he gets off of it. All his pain goes away. It turned out his pain was being caused not just by the running, but by- by the fact that he was creating inflammation by destroying his gut biome by taking 800 milligrams of ibuprofen two times a day.

Maynard James Keenan 49:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:50 So the idea of like fixing himself was fucking him up.

Maynard James Keenan 49:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:53 It's crazy.

Maynard James Keenan 49:55 That's chasing that, you know?

Joe Rogan 49:56 Yeah. So fuck ibuprofen.

Maynard James Keenan 49:58 Okay.

Joe Rogan 49:59 Well, I mean, don't f-... I mean, I take it every now and then, but you can't take it every day.

Maynard James Keenan 50:03 So you're a liar.

Joe Rogan 50:04 No, I mean just saying don't take it every day. But if I had like a bad headache, I'll- I'll take some Tylenol or some shit. It's not Tylenol, right? Advil. Advil.

Maynard James Keenan 50:12 Advil. Advil.

Joe Rogan 50:13 I mean, it's- it's- it's just not something you're supposed to take all the time. It's- it's-

Maynard James Keenan 50:16 Yeah. I did for a minute and I realized it was doing what you said.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 50:19 So I was more icky than I should be.

Joe Rogan 50:21 And then-

Maynard James Keenan 50:21 And then like, you know, bad night out, you didn't drink enough water.

Joe Rogan 50:24 Right. Okay. Boom, boom, boom.

Maynard James Keenan 50:26 Bum, bum, bum. Popping head.

Joe Rogan 50:27 Plopping head.

Maynard James Keenan 50:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:28 And then you're fine.

Maynard James Keenan 50:29 All right.

Joe Rogan 50:29 You can still do that. But CBD does that too. It's better. Better for you than all that stuff.

Maynard James Keenan 50:33 All right.

Joe Rogan 50:33 There seems to be no side effects.

Maynard James Keenan 50:35 Okay. All right.

Joe Rogan 50:37 The side effects is, uh, people think you're a hippie. That's the only side effect.

Maynard James Keenan 50:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:44 Right? If you say you're into CBD-

Maynard James Keenan 50:46 I s- I just- I just talk so much shit about pot that now I gotta like backpedal-

Joe Rogan 50:50 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 50:50 ... and go, "No, I was just a part of an elaborate joke. I was-"

Joe Rogan 50:53 Listen, man. I smoke pot all the time and I talk shit about pot.

Maynard James Keenan 50:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:56 It's the people. It's the fucking people that are really into pot. They're annoying. They're- they're annoying. Look at this.

Maynard James Keenan 51:06 Eddie's not in here, is he?

Joe Rogan 51:07 No.

Maynard James Keenan 51:07 Eddie? Thought maybe he was gonna jump out from under the table.

Joe Rogan 51:09 No. No, he's gonna... No. This is, uh, I got this from... Is this from Tommy Chong?

Maynard James Keenan 51:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:15 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 51:16 Good lord, that's a baseball bat.

Joe Rogan 51:17 Tommy Chong's not playing games. And he's been doing this since the '70s and he's still alive. Seems to be fine. Smells scary. Like you just smell it and you're like this is gonna bring back memories that I don't want anymore.

Maynard James Keenan 51:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:32 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 51:33 We got rid of those. Why are you bringing those back?

Joe Rogan 51:35 The problem is d- dummies.

Maynard James Keenan 51:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:37 The problem is not pot. It's like the problem with every single thing. Like it- it's... The problem is not skateboards. The problem is people who wanna ride skateboards on the edge of fucking skyscrapers. Right?

Maynard James Keenan 51:46 Good point.

Joe Rogan 51:47 That- that's the problem.

Maynard James Keenan 51:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:48 It's like with everything. It's not... It's the implementation of the idea in a really stupid way. That's the problem.

Maynard James Keenan 51:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 51:55 It's not pot. People smoke pot all day.

Maynard James Keenan 51:58 It's the same thi-... It's... But you can, you can apply that to almost anything.

Joe Rogan 52:00 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 52:00 You know, a hammer. It kind of... It can destroy something with it, you can build something with it.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Exactly.

Maynard James Keenan 52:05 So it's not really the hammer, it's you.

Joe Rogan 52:07 Exactly.

Maynard James Keenan 52:08 Okay.

Joe Rogan 52:08 Exactly.

Maynard James Keenan 52:09 Gotcha.

Joe Rogan 52:09 But there's some people that are functional on it all day. Like B-Real from Cypress Hill. I did his show, he's got this Hot Box show. (sighs) I can't believe how high they get.

Maynard James Keenan 52:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:20 They're high all day long and then they keep going. It... We got so high before the show started, I was like, "Well, we must be done. We're gonna go sit..." He does this show called The Hot Box and you- you sit in this, uh, beautiful old Cadillac and smoke weed and talk about life. And, uh, I was like, "Well, surely we're done. Uh, we can't be smoking more." Wrong. He gives you these bats of weed and you climb into the car and it's, uh, just a fucking thick cloud of smoke. There's B-Real. He doesn't fuck around. But he's lucid, completely functional. You talk to him, the guy exercises, he's healthy, he's real friendly. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 52:54 Real friendly.

Joe Rogan 52:55 He seems fucking... (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 52:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:56 It seems to work out great for him.

Maynard James Keenan 52:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:59 But not for everybody.

Maynard James Keenan 53:00 I... Yeah. I'm like, I'm the pot guy that's under the table freaking out.

Joe Rogan 53:03 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 53:04 Like that's a-

Joe Rogan 53:04 What do you think of? What- what bothers you when you get high?

Maynard James Keenan 53:08 Um, I think just paranoia. Anything.

Joe Rogan 53:11 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 53:12 Uh, a noise, a- a thought, uh, you know, they're trying to get me. Like it's-

Joe Rogan 53:17 Hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 53:17 ... super like paranoid paranoia to me.

Joe Rogan 53:18 Even if you just get a little pot? Just a little...

Maynard James Keenan 53:20 Mm-hmm. Shh, shh, shh, shh, shh. Yep.

Joe Rogan 53:21 What about you try a little bit of this?

Maynard James Keenan 53:23 You want CBD?

Joe Rogan 53:24 It's a little bit of CBD.

Maynard James Keenan 53:24 Joe.

Joe Rogan 53:25 A little bit of pot.

Maynard James Keenan 53:25 Joe.

Joe Rogan 53:26 No?

Maynard James Keenan 53:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:27 Why don't y'all take one first? I'll show you. We're gonna be fine. No?

Maynard James Keenan 53:30 Yeah. I don't know. Nope. Okay.

Joe Rogan 53:33 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 53:33 Yeah. Thank you.

Joe Rogan 53:34 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 53:34 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 53:34 (laughs) Stick with wine.

Maynard James Keenan 53:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:37 Do you fuck with whiskey?

Maynard James Keenan 53:38 Yeah, I do. Um, I got a thing, a little collaboration with, uh, with Angel's Envy Bourbon outta Kentucky. They took some of my, uh, my fortified wine barrels and took them and they're finishing one of their ports in one of my barrels.

Joe Rogan 53:53 Ooh.

Maynard James Keenan 53:53 A couple of my barrels, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:54 Ooh. So is port the same as whiskey?

Maynard James Keenan 53:57 Port, uh, is a fortified wine, uh, from Portugal.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 54:01 So, uh, you can, can-

Joe Rogan 54:03 Oh, so they're a whiskey... They're an alcohol company?

Maynard James Keenan 54:06 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:06 Okay.

Maynard James Keenan 54:06 Yeah. So Angel's Envy is- is- is bourbon.

Joe Rogan 54:09 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 54:09 Uh, they do rye and bourbon, uh, in Kentucky and they, and they basically, they have a whole thing about their... Angel's Envy Bourbon is finished in, in port barrels.

Joe Rogan 54:19 Oh.

Maynard James Keenan 54:19 So they'll get... They'll find, you know, uh, they get them from Europe or get them from California where they're, you know, they're a fortified red barrel that's had wine in it. Sweet, rich wine. And they finish the, uh, the- the bourbon in these barrels.

Joe Rogan 54:33 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 54:33 So now they have some of mine to do a special caduceus collaboration.

Joe Rogan 54:37 You're one of those people that I talk to that I go, "Where the fuck does he get the time?" 'Cause I do a lot of things. But then I talk to someone like you, I'm like, "No, I don't." No, you do a lot of things.

Maynard James Keenan 54:48 Oh, it's- it's organizing, you know, just organizing your time and delegating.

Joe Rogan 54:52 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 54:52 I mean, 'cause that's really what it is, is when you get... When you're younger, you wanna go, "I did that, I did that. I w- I'm doing that." And then you realize, "I can't do all of that."

Joe Rogan 55:00 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 55:01 So, we just, I have friends there, a team of people like, I can't... We have a Puscifer store in Jerome, Arizona. And it has cut and sew, we do, we do printing on shirts. We have a, a barber shop in it. We do a full new and used vinyl-

Joe Rogan 55:15 Do you have a barber shop?

Maynard James Keenan 55:16 ... section. Yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 55:16 It's weird for a bald guy.

Maynard James Keenan 55:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:18 To have a barber shop.

Maynard James Keenan 55:19 I don't use it. Um, except for, you know-

Joe Rogan 55:22 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 55:22 ... uh, the manscaping. Uh, new and used vinyl on top floor, with all kinds of paraphernalia like, you know, band stuff, but also like a whole, uh, kind of the gelato shop.

Joe Rogan 55:33 Do people go there hoping they're gonna run into you?

Maynard James Keenan 55:35 Probably. Uh, but I don't run it. My wife does.

Joe Rogan 55:38 Right. Right.

Maynard James Keenan 55:38 She's absolute- I couldn't do the, I couldn't do it at all-

Joe Rogan 55:41 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 55:41 ... without her. She runs it, top to bottom. All the ideas for all the Puscifer merch is all, is all her. She does, she runs it. Uh, it's great. We just added a popcorn machine.

Joe Rogan 55:49 Ooh.

Maynard James Keenan 55:50 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:51 Nice.

Maynard James Keenan 55:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:52 Did you just... You do that and you do jujitsu too?

Maynard James Keenan 55:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:57 How?

Maynard James Keenan 55:57 Well-

Joe Rogan 55:58 How?

Maynard James Keenan 55:58 ... here's the thing. I do jujitsu, I just don't do it very well.

Joe Rogan 56:01 Ah.

Maynard James Keenan 56:01 Because I don't focus on it all day.

Joe Rogan 56:03 Well, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 56:04 I've, I've learned about jujitsu over the years. And now I'm doing a little bit of Muay Thai. I'm, I suck at that too, but I'm doing some. I bought a bag.

Joe Rogan 56:12 Yeah?

Maynard James Keenan 56:12 Some gloves.

Joe Rogan 56:13 What kind of bag?

Maynard James Keenan 56:14 Uh, the, uh, the Fairplay?

Joe Rogan 56:15 Fairtex?

Maynard James Keenan 56:16 Fairtex, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:16 That's a good bag for you. Especially since you've had some hi- hip issues because it's a very l- it's, uh, it doesn't, it's not hard.

Maynard James Keenan 56:23 Okay.

Joe Rogan 56:23 It's a good bag to hit. I've got a couple different bags out there. One of them-

Maynard James Keenan 56:26 That tall one though is the one I want to have.

Joe Rogan 56:28 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 56:28 Because I got the shorter, fat one.

Joe Rogan 56:30 Right. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 56:31 It seems pretty heavy.

Joe Rogan 56:32 Yeah, that's a different one.

Maynard James Keenan 56:33 And then the ball.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Mm-hmm. The ball's good. Yeah. The ball's great.

Maynard James Keenan 56:36 And the sack.

Joe Rogan 56:36 Yeah, the sack one-

Maynard James Keenan 56:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:38 ... for knees. That, um, the one that I have, that heavy bag is great because it's, it gives. Like it's good for tendons and stuff because like a lot of people, you hit those big, hard, heavy bags and, you know, you can do that when you're young, but as you get older and you've got 20 years of blasting into bags full power-

Maynard James Keenan 56:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:55 ... after a while your joints just start to fucking, they just start to say, "Fuck you."

Maynard James Keenan 56:59 Yeah. Well, I'm finding that, for me, uh, my friend, Todd, got me into doing the Muay Thai because he's like, "Look, we do jujitsu so much and on the road you're like, you know, you got some, like, we only, we can only find this black belt in town-"

Joe Rogan 57:12 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 57:13 "... to train with you and he's 210."

Joe Rogan 57:14 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 57:15 "220." So, I'm, you know, trying to deal with this weight and like I'm kind of sore now after the show and I'm-

Joe Rogan 57:20 Mm-hmm. That's not good.

Maynard James Keenan 57:21 The bed is not, you know, you know-

Joe Rogan 57:23 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 57:23 ... traveling but the bed's never ideal. Uh, and you're in the bus and you're bouncing on the road and some, like, it looks, it's like a, like a coffin, right?

Joe Rogan 57:30 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 57:30 That has some kind of palsy all the way down the road and you're just bluh-bluh-bluh trying to sleep. Um, so, we, he went, "Let's do some, let's do some Muay Thai because it's more opening."

Joe Rogan 57:41 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 57:42 So, you're, you're, it's like, it's left right.

Joe Rogan 57:43 Sure.

Maynard James Keenan 57:43 You know.

Joe Rogan 57:44 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 57:44 You're kind of going back and you're doing more twisting and just that rhythm. And it's a good workout. Like, I'm sweating-

Joe Rogan 57:49 It's easier on your joints too.

Maynard James Keenan 57:50 Yeah. So, I, you know, I got into it for that reason, just to kind of stand upright more.

Joe Rogan 57:55 So you have someone holding-

Maynard James Keenan 57:55 Doing all that.

Joe Rogan 57:55 ... your pads for you and shit like that?

Maynard James Keenan 57:57 Yeah. Well, he's got a lot of, you know, all over the world-

Joe Rogan 57:59 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 57:59 ... he's got, you know, great trainers everywhere. So, we roll in and it's funny though. You go into one guy and like, "Yeah, do this. What are you doing? Don't do that." I'm like, "But the last, but the last guy said not supposed to do that."

Joe Rogan 58:08 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 58:08 Like, you know, different trainer, different, different instructions.

Joe Rogan 58:10 Yeah. You get a lot of that, for sure.

Maynard James Keenan 58:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:12 There's a lot of people that know for sure that they have the way to do it.

Maynard James Keenan 58:15 (laughs) What? Watching the infinite number of how you wrap your hands videos-

Joe Rogan 58:20 Oh, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 58:21 ... on YouTube? "No, bro. This is the way you do it."

Joe Rogan 58:23 There's only one way.

Maynard James Keenan 58:24 "It's only one way."

Joe Rogan 58:24 One way.

Maynard James Keenan 58:24 "This is the best way."

Joe Rogan 58:25 My favorite is the ones you slide on and then you just spin it and they Velcro on, it's like got gel that goes over the knuckles.

Maynard James Keenan 58:32 Done.

Joe Rogan 58:32 They slide on like a little glove.

Maynard James Keenan 58:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:34 It's great.

Maynard James Keenan 58:35 All right.

Joe Rogan 58:36 I, I love those.

Maynard James Keenan 58:36 I look at those.

Joe Rogan 58:36 It only has like, maybe like four feet of actual wrap.

Maynard James Keenan 58:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:40 And then you slide these things on. You go like that. Wroop. Bang. These couple sides-

Maynard James Keenan 58:43 But the headache of me sitting there like-

Joe Rogan 58:45 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 58:45 ... watching the tube, like...

Joe Rogan 58:47 Some guys get super serious about folding over the knuckles too.

Maynard James Keenan 58:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:50 You fold seven times and then you put it over the knuckles, then wrap it down, then t- through the fingers and-

Maynard James Keenan 58:56 Isn't that what the bag's for? The, the glo- gloves. The gloves are supposed to be the padding. Why are you putting more padding?

Joe Rogan 58:59 It helps, but you're, you're, also what helps is really strengthening your hands. There's a l- a lot of the problem that people have is that they don't do anything with their hands.

Maynard James Keenan 59:08 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:08 They, they just hit things.

Maynard James Keenan 59:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:09 Like, which is fine, but to really reinforce the structure of your hand, you should use those captains of crush grips. Smash down those things. They'll, they'll create better tendon strength in the hand strength.

Maynard James Keenan 59:22 With like the, do I have to have like a mullet and sit in like a Camaro and do that-

Joe Rogan 59:24 No.

Maynard James Keenan 59:24 ... hand thing like this?

Joe Rogan 59:25 Those guys can't use the captains of crush ones. Those motherfuckers are like 160 plus pounds.

Maynard James Keenan 59:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:30 Didn't you say you got one that's like 190 or something? What do you got?

Speaker 59:32 Yeah, that lev- the level three is 280.

Joe Rogan 59:36 What do they look like? It's like a s- a knurled steel pipe or aluminum outside and thick, heavy spring. It's like a hand gripper, but it's like-

Speaker 59:46 Okay.

Joe Rogan 59:46 ... a real legit hardcore one. And so, I'll do it this way and then I'll flip them upside down and do it that way. And then I'll, I'll also-

Speaker 59:53 All right.

Joe Rogan 59:53 ... you know, I do a lot of chin-ups and a lot of stuff with my hands. That's what it looks like. You've seen those fucking things.

Maynard James Keenan 59:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:58 But those are-

Maynard James Keenan 59:59 So, I'm supposed to, like, just you know, I'm supposed to be like in a Camaro doing that?

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 No.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:02 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:00:02 Not anymore.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:03 Not anymore.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 Those guys are dead.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Oh, Jesus. It goes to 322?

Speaker 1:00:07 Yeah. They added these.

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 Oh, my God, 365?

Speaker 1:00:09 Yeah, only like five people in the world have ever done these down here.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 That is so crazy.

Speaker 1:00:14 At least that's according to what I was reading about.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 Damn.

Speaker 1:00:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 I've got the 140 pound one.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:18 That's nuts. So, how far down do I go? Let's see where-

Speaker 1:00:21 Start with the 60.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:22 Let me see. Let me see.

Speaker 1:00:22 You're fine. Start with the 60. It's better on here.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:23 You sure?

Joe Rogan 1:00:24 Yeah, start with the 60 though.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:26 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 But I mean, it just, you want reps.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:27 Have you met me?

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 You want reps.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:29 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 Like you just want to be simple to sit around. The idea is that-

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:31 Do they have like a 10? Just kidding.

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 All this, most people, I've, I've met guys who are fighters.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 Like really good fighters that have small hands. And I, and I mean small hands meaning like the structure of the hand. I mean the meat, the meat of the hand. They have, they don't do anything where they're gripping all the time or pulling all the time. They're strikers. So, they just wrap their hands up and, you know, when you're just doing this all the time and throwing punches, you're not really making your hands stronger. Like the way to make the hand strong is you've got to squeeze tennis balls and squeeze... You know, there's different putties that they make.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:01 Grip gis and shit.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 Yeah. Gripping gis is fantastic.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:04 Jesus, dude. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Doing, like if you grab a jujitsu guy's hand, those hands are made out of wood. Like a, a really good jujitsu guy like, and a lot of that is just gis and gi chin-ups and shit. When you throw the gi over the chin-up bar and do that, that's, that's fantastic too.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:19 When you do that?

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 Yeah. You don't fuck with that.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:22 I'm just a pussy, dude, (sighs) like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 Do you do no gi or just gi?

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:25 I do mostly gi.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 Mostly gi?

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:27 Yeah. Yeah. But I'm, you know, I, I f- I'm finding on the road, it's ... Just traveling, it's easier to do the no gi 'cause I can rinse that out and hang it up in the shower-

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:35 And it is dry by morning.

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 Do you, uh, use special soap and you make sure you don't get any fucking cooties?

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:40 Yeah. It's enou- it's, it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 Cooties are real, man.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:45 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 They kill people.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:46 Well, I noticed, like, you know, uh, and it's been ... I remember as a wrestler-

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:51 ... you, you, you never really saw this stuff. You saw a little bit of it. But, like, nowadays, it's like they're getting disqualified at regionals because they've got a spot on their back-

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:59 ... and they can't go wrestle and they've worked their whole season to get here. And it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:05 ... well, we clean the mats. We do all those things. We clean the stuff. Like, where'd you get that?

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 Well, staph is in your body. And particularly when people blow their nose, you know, and they wipe their nose on their fa- and then they, they roll, that stuff ... Your nose has all sorts of staph inside of it.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 And people get staph in their nose as well if they get an abrasion in their nose and that stuff gets in, into your skin and you don't clean it out. It's also, your body has to be healthy. And one of the things that happens with wrestlers, or any competitive athlete, is as your body is going through training camp, you are building your conditioning, but you're als- also compromising your immune system. Like, when I was fighting, I used to always get sick. I had poor nutrition. I wasn't really that smart about it. But I was always getting sick before, like, big events. Also nerves, too.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 Nerves, conditioning, all that stuff breaks you down. So with, with athletes, it's ... That are doing any sort of combat sport where you're getting scratched and, and y- you're really susceptible to that stuff. So you gotta ... Like, defense sto- soap is my thing. I, I fucking love that stuff because it's all natural. You're not doing anything. Like, when people use antibacterial soap on the hand, the problem with that is that kills the good bacteria too.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03:12 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 What you want is something that really ... It reinforces the healthy flora, but prevents all the, the cooties from growing, prevents staph.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03:19 All right. Send me that-

Joe Rogan 1:03:20 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03:20 ... little list of-

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 I'll have him send you. My, my friend, Guy Sacco, runs a company.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03:24 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 He developed it because he was a wrestling coach and these kids were getting staph and ringworm and shit and he was trying to figure out what the fuck is this. So he came up with these natural cures for it. It's all just tea tree oil and eucalyptus oil.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03:35 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 It's just healthy.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03:37 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 Yeah. And after you train, just wr- wash your body with it and leave it on. You leave it on, like you s- suds up, leave it on for a minute or two, then rinse it off. And then if you got any little scratches, he's got some ointment you put on the old ... And it's all natural. It's all just good for you, healthy. And then also what's good is probiotics. Like, anything like, um ... Kimchi's really good. Uh, kombucha's really good. Acidophilus from yogurt's really good. You just-

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:04 So, so what about ... What is it the, that's in the kimchi that, that works? Is it because they've, they let it go to vinegar, the, the volatile-

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 Hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:11 ... acidity is what actually has the probiotics in it?

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:13 Because I do, I have olive, olive tree. I have, like, 20 olive trees-

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:17 ... and so, you know, we do the, the brine solution. It's, it's salt and vinegar.

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:21 Solution that we're, that we're curing them in. Is that have anything to do with that at all?

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 Sure. The, the, the thing about kimchi is it's a proven health probiotic. Like, it's, it's one of those things that people have been eating for thousands of years and it's just good for your overall-

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:36 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 ... wellbeing. And-

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:37 I wanna know more about this.

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 Yeah. So-

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:40 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 C- cultures. You know, when you're eating these probiotic cultures, and there's some really potent ones you could buy that are, you, you ... They require ... Like, there's some that you can get that, um, they live on their own substrate, so inside the little capsules there's enough of whatever they can feed off of where they can be active without being refrigerated. But there's other ones that you have to buy, like really hardcore ones that you're getting, that have to be refrigerated.

Maynard James Keenan 1:05:05 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:05:05 But they ... What I like about the food-based ones is, first of all, they taste good. They could be a part of a meal. I don't have t- ... I like kimchi, so I eat it all the time. Kombucha, I like it. I drink it all the time. And it's just, it just reinforces all that healthy flora.

Maynard James Keenan 1:05:18 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 You know? And so you, it's basically got, like, little soldiers to fight against the cooties. You just reinf- ... You mean, you gotta think of your body as an ecosystem, right? Your body's not just you. Your body is a host of bacteria. So much, so much so, there's more E. coli living in your gut than have ever been people ever. You know, it's all just a part of you. So you just reinforce the good stuff and keep the bad stuff away. And when the immune system gets compromised, especially through hard training, and then you get scratched and that staph just gets a ... Get a grip on you and gets ahold of you and starts to go, and then it gets systemic, I mean, fucking people die from that stuff. They really do. Staph, in fact, especially that MRSA stuff, man, there's a ... You remember Kevin Randleman, the UFC fighter?

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:01 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 He had the most horrific staph infection I've ever seen in my life, where he had holes where he would lift up his arm and you could see a hole w- in his underarm where you see his muscle all th- th- I mean, through the skin. Look at this. He'll sh-

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:17 (groans)

Joe Rogan 1:06:17 Look at it. Do you see it up there?

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:18 Good Lord.

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 Yeah. Like, look at that. Go, go large with that. Look at that fucking hole. That red stuff that you see in there, that is his chest muscle. And he died young, man. And I think it, it probably had a lot to do with that. And I think what happened with Kevin is, if I'm not mistaken, he just let it go a little too long. And that medication-resistant staph infection, that MRSA stuff, that's the scary stuff, 'cause that's stuff that's evolved in hospitals and then ... Because of people using antibiotics and just-

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:49 Yeah. I do my best not to take the antibiotics if I can.

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 But if you get that stuff, you gotta take it.

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:54 Yeah, take something.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 They gotta fucking lock you in a hotel room, or in a hospital room, rather, and they just IV the fuck out of you. And you ... I have buddies that were there for weeks. My friend Denny, his, his knee was fucked. I mean, he has a, a, a opening on his leg like a salmon got gutted and they had to go in there and just pull out pus and constantly try to disinfect the area. And he was in the hospital for a long time just dealing with his knee.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:21 And this, and this is j-

Joe Rogan 1:07:22 From jujitsu.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:23 From jujitsu, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:23 Yeah, I mean, he's a world champion. His, uh, his knee started swelling up and he wound up going in.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:28 Great. Let's, let's do Muay Thai. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 (laughs) They get it too, though, man.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:32 Here's my gi.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 So many UFC fighters get it and they wind up fighting on antibiotics because of it, 'cause they're fighting it off. You know, Kevin Lee, when he fought Tony Ferguson, as he walked into the octagon, I was looking at his chest. I was like, "That is a staph infection." He's got a staph infection on his chest. And he wound up getting staph apparently the week of the fight and he was like-

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:50 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 1:07:50 ... "You know what? We're just gonna