Joe Rogan Experience #1337 - Dan Crenshaw

Dan Crenshaw 0:00 Yeah. Trident there.

Joe Rogan 0:03 Yeah, this one is from, uh, Goggins. David Goggins gave me this one.

Dan Crenshaw 0:08 That's his coin?

Joe Rogan 0:09 Yeah, he's got his own coin.

Dan Crenshaw 0:10 Okay, so he's got-

Joe Rogan 0:10 You need a Dan Crenshaw coin, bro.

Dan Crenshaw 0:12 I do. This is kind of a big coin.

Joe Rogan 0:14 It's a fat one. It's not one you can really carry in your pocket.

Dan Crenshaw 0:17 No, no.

Joe Rogan 0:17 So it stays on the desk.

Dan Crenshaw 0:18 He's, he's really trying to outdo everybody else's-

Joe Rogan 0:20 (laughs) That's David-

Dan Crenshaw 0:21 ... coin.

Joe Rogan 0:21 That's David Goggins. (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 0:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:24 (laughs) The uncommon amongst uncommon men, even with your fucking coins. (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 0:28 Oh, dude. Jesus.

Joe Rogan 0:30 So what's-

Dan Crenshaw 0:30 That coin, that coin's not gonna be that big. I'm still working on it.

Joe Rogan 0:32 Are you gonna get a coin for real?

Dan Crenshaw 0:34 W- we are, yeah. We-

Joe Rogan 0:34 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 0:34 ... we're way behind the power curve on this. We need one. It's all about, you know, you gotta get the right symbology in there. You got the right amount of Texas, right amount of SEAL, the right amount of Congress.

Joe Rogan 0:43 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 0:43 It's all, you know, pack that into the right symbology, so...

Joe Rogan 0:46 Yeah. Test different ingredients.

Dan Crenshaw 0:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:48 Try it over and over again-

Dan Crenshaw 0:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:50 ... till you get the bacon right.

Dan Crenshaw 0:51 Basically.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 0:52 Basically.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Well, thanks for being here, man. Appreciate it.

Dan Crenshaw 0:54 I'm glad to be here. This is pretty cool.

Joe Rogan 0:56 You, uh, rose to prominence through a joke. Isn't that strange? Like the Saturday Night Live-

Dan Crenshaw 1:00 Yeah, I mean, a form- form of a joke, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01 Yeah, Saturday Night Live.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03 That was a weird moment, and I was like, "Woo."

Dan Crenshaw 1:05 It was, um-

Joe Rogan 1:06 You handled it really well, though.

Dan Crenshaw 1:07 Well, thank you. Um, when that happened, it was a Saturday night, obviously, Saturday Night Live, and, uh, we heard about it the next morning. I got a lot of texts, and everybody's like, "Oh, hey man, you made it." It's a, there's a bunch of, bunch of SEALs too. So the, the SEAL community is not prone to, you know, this, this righteous indignation kind of reaction.

Joe Rogan 1:29 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 1:29 They're, they're more likely... They're, they, they were more likely in private to just double down and make fun of me more.

Joe Rogan 1:34 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 1:34 Right? Which I love about them. Um, but here's what they would say, "Only we're allowed to make fun of you."

Joe Rogan 1:39 (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 1:40 (laughs) Not, not, not this guy. Um, so that's how we found out about it. We watched it, and we were, we were right in the middle of the campaign. Well, the, the, the election was about two days away, so you're, you're struggling just to do all your last minute things to get the vote out. And so this was... It, it was, it did not dawn upon me how big of a deal this was going to be. At the time, it, it felt more like an annoyance. It felt more like, "Okay, I've gotta, I've got to come up with a statement. I'm, I'm seeing people really upset about this, but I'm not gonna lie to them and tell them that I'm emotionally upset, like I'm emotionally triggered by this." That would be a, a false reaction on my part. Um, so we crafted, I think, the, the right statement, which was, "Listen, like, it's offensive, doesn't mean I'm offended. And you don't have to be e- you don't have to choose to be offended here. And as just a general rule, we should try hard not to offend people and try hard not to be offended. Okay there, that's it. I'm not gonna demand some apology, uh, and, and, and kinda stand on my high horse and play this, play this aggrieved victim role," which is, which is the expected role to play these days. We, we don't wanna do that, and then-

Joe Rogan 2:49 Well, good for you. Good for you-

Dan Crenshaw 2:51 (laughs) Thanks.

Joe Rogan 2:51 ... for not doing s- refreshing. Yeah, but the joke was kind of funny. I mean, I have to admit. You said he s- you looked like a bad guy in a porno film. (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 2:58 Th- that was not the offensive part. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:00 (laughs) What was the offensive part?

Dan Crenshaw 3:02 The, yeah, I mean, uh, that part was funny. It, now it drew a lot of questions. He, he called me a hitman in a porno.

Joe Rogan 3:07 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 3:07 And so the obvious question is, what kind of porno is this? (laughs) I mean, that's-

Joe Rogan 3:11 (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 3:11 Right? That, that's the very ob- that's the, that's the next thing that goes through your head.

Joe Rogan 3:14 Like, what kind of porno has a hitman? (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 3:15 Right, right, and like, what's the role of that? I mean, there's just, you, you know, your mind goes to all sorts of directions. That, that part wasn't-

Joe Rogan 3:21 The offensive part-

Dan Crenshaw 3:22 That, that wa-

Joe Rogan 3:22 ... was he lost his eye in the war or whatever.

Dan Crenshaw 3:25 Th- that's what set people off.

Joe Rogan 3:26 Right, that was-

Dan Crenshaw 3:27 That, that's what set people off.

Joe Rogan 3:28 ... very dismissive. Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 3:28 Yeah, and, you know, after having gone on the show and seeing how they do things and how carefully scripted it actually is, it's, it's, it's, it's unclear to me and it always will be, and nobody will ever come out with the actual truth on this, on, on how that mistake got made. I think, I think probably, uh, Pete, they, if I'm just giving him total benefit of the doubt, and, and also hav- after having met him and, and just, you know, having a general rule that we should try to give some people some space and assume that they're not the evil people that we might assume they are, um, he probably just kinda looked at the line and didn't feel like finishing it and just said, "Ah, whatever." And it just, and it, and that, but that caught, and that, and that created this, you know, what, what would actually was a pretty offensive comment. Um, but, uh, you know, did he mean it? Well, we'll never really know. Now, I, and I'll back up and say the whole premise of that joke was ill-intentioned. I mean-

Joe Rogan 4:24 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 4:24 ... they said as much, right? They, they said, "Look at these gross people. We don't like them, and just to appear somewhat fair, we'll make fun of one Democrat."

Joe Rogan 4:32 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 4:32 I mean, they did, they did say that. So the, you know, there, there wa- this was... The thrust of the entire skit was obviously not well-intentioned, but I'm not sure he meant as, to be as deeply insulting as it turned out to be.

Joe Rogan 4:42 Yeah, he could've said the same thing, that you're an American hero, but you look like a hitman in a porno film.

Dan Crenshaw 4:48 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:48 It would've been funny.

Dan Crenshaw 4:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:49 And it would've been okay. Yeah, it's the whatever. It's that part, but he-

Dan Crenshaw 4:53 He, he's no Joe Rogan, okay?

Joe Rogan 4:54 ... he, he was just trying to be funny, man. That's all it was. You know, people look so deeply into why comics do things, but the majority of the reason why they say offensive shit is 'cause they think it's gonna work.

Dan Crenshaw 5:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:04 That's why.

Dan Crenshaw 5:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:05 They find a thing. It's not like they harbor some deep resentment or anger towards any protected class or anything like that. This is like what people who are non-comics look into it, guarantee 100%, like this is gonna work.

Dan Crenshaw 5:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:19 That's all it is. This is gonna get a laugh.

Dan Crenshaw 5:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:20 That's all it is.

Dan Crenshaw 5:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:21 100%. And then there's other things you talk about that are important to you that you're trying to figure out how to make funny, but for the most part, especially on something like Saturday Night Live, where they're all kinda competing to be funny together. I mean, that's a very-

Dan Crenshaw 5:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:33 ... weird show.

Dan Crenshaw 5:35 It is. It's, and it's, it was cool being behind the scenes and watching how it all takes place. Um, you know, they, they come up with these wacky ideas. They, they test 'em out. The writers go try it out. They, they see how it goes. They change some things. They'll do it in front of an audience. They'll see how the audience reacts, and they'll go with that.Um, it's- it's- it was fun. I mean, it was fun to be a part of. It was fun to actually get... have my input on the- on the comedy.

Joe Rogan 5:57 What was great about it, though, is that you came back after that, and he apologized to you, and you accepted it graciously. But it also got ... I mean, it was great for you because it got people to know who you are. And then, I started paying attention to you after that. I started watching some interviews and watching some speeches and s- different things. And I found you to be a very reasonable right-wing guy, which I think we need way more of in this world. You know, it's like in this polarization of left versus right, it just seems... It's so toxic right now, that when you can find people that are reasonable and intelligent and- and think along logical lines that you could easily follow and go-

Dan Crenshaw 6:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:36 ... "Oh, okay, maybe I agree or disagree with this guy, but I see where he's coming from."

Dan Crenshaw 6:41 Yeah. And you're... What you're getting at is a- a problem in politics is- is politicians and political leaders, I think, f- forgot to explain why we believe what we believe.

Joe Rogan 6:49 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 6:50 And that's pretty important. Um, you know, we'll... I think too often talking points are relied upon. And it's not that those talking points are false necessarily, but they're not persuasive because you haven't gone a couple layers deep. A- again, I think you talk about this a lot. Why are podcasts so popular? They're popular because people want to hear a little bit more information. They want to get a deeper understanding of why you think what you think. People are ready to hear that. They're ready for some nuance. Um, that being said, it... B- being in politics, you wouldn't think... (laughs) you wouldn't think that we're getting any closer to nuanced conversations. And-

Joe Rogan 7:25 Well, I think political conversations on podcasts are opening up a whole new door where you understand people like Tulsi Gabbard or Andrew Yang or-

Dan Crenshaw 7:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:33 ... Bernie Sanders or the people that I've had... I've had on this podcast. One of the things that I've talked to people about, they said, "I didn't know that Bernie was, like, a normal person." You hear him talk and y- you know, it's a- always in these very quick sound bites on television. You know, he's always yelling about wealth or race or something. He just looks like a madman.

Dan Crenshaw 7:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:51 But then you sit down and talk to him for... in a long-form conversation, you let him expand on his thoughts, you go, "Oh, he's a reasonable guy." He just has... Th- these are his principles. These are- these are his ideas, and he's not a cartoon.

Dan Crenshaw 8:02 Yeah. I mean, on a personal level, most people in Congress are not exactly who you think they are. They- they are just people.

Joe Rogan 8:09 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 8:09 They make jokes and we- and we-

Joe Rogan 8:10 Of course.

Dan Crenshaw 8:10 We- we make small talk in the elevator. You know, these- these things happen. Um, Bernie, in particular. He's on the Senate side. I don't really interact with him at all. Uh, Tulsi Gabbard, I do. You mentioned her.

Joe Rogan 8:22 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 8:22 Um, you know, we- we- we do... We- we do have good conversations. Uh, that- that does happen. We disagree vigorously on- on lots of things.

Joe Rogan 8:29 What do you guys disagree on?

Dan Crenshaw 8:31 Uh, Tulsi in particular?

Joe Rogan 8:32 Sure.

Dan Crenshaw 8:33 Uh, well, most things, I would say. Uh, one- one thing she's quite outspoken about is, um... is our involvement overseas. Uh, she's... She would generally s-... She's- she's much more of an isolationist than I am. What I remind people when we're talking about that particular subject, why- why do we keep troops in Syria? Why do we keep troops in- in Iraq? Why do we keep troops in Afghanistan? Isn't the war over? Um, why don't we bring the boys back home? And the- the answer is, this is not a conventional war. This is not something where you sign a peace treaty with a uniformed, uh, army. It is... It is a different... It's a different situation. We send guys like me over there so that they don't come here. We send guys like me over there so that we keep pressure on them and- and prevent them from having the operational space and timing to commit another 9/11. You have to understand that these people over there wake up every single day trying to plan another 9/11. It is- it is- it is what they do. And, uh, we've already seen, uh, an increase in- in ISIS activity just from the drawdown that we already did have in Syria. So, you know, that's a... That's a fair disagreement, again, but she's a really cool person and I wanted... I- I brought up Tulsi just specifically because we do talk and- and I- and I- and I- and I just like her as a person. We just disagree on things, but there's a respect there.

Joe Rogan 9:47 To play devil's advocate, some would say that the reason why they want to plat- plot another 9/11 is because we're over there.

Dan Crenshaw 9:53 Yeah. I disagree with that. So let's- let's look at the Osama bin Laden, um, example. What exactly did we do to this guy? You know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:01 Well, we helped him, right?

Dan Crenshaw 10:02 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 10:03 Back when he was fighting against-

Dan Crenshaw 10:03 So when the Ni-

Joe Rogan 10:03 ... the Soviets, with the Mujahideen.

Dan Crenshaw 10:05 Exactly. In the... He- he was a Mujahideen fighter. We helped him fight the Soviets. We protected Saudi Arabia from invasion from Saddam Hussein. That's his homeland. And yet he hated us. And when we left, we never occupied Saudi Arabia. We left when they asked us to leave after we defended them, um, and prevented another invasion from Saddam Hussein after he invaded Kuwait. What is it we did to make this guy so mad? And the answer is, we didn't do anything, objectively speaking. He hates us because of our Western ideology. He hates us because he hates us. And... And- and that's hard for us to understand because it's not logical, uh, but it is the truth. And, um, it's- it's... You know, so th- that's the... and it's a prime example of- of why we... this- this- this is a long-term fight. And it's, um... it- it's not likely to go away anytime soon. And the last thing I would say, the world is a very small place. We can... W- when we pretend that we... to ignore things going on in the Middle East, we can pretend that they won't come here, but the reality is, that's a 12-hour flight. And- and- and- and the speed of information travels even faster. You know, when we were seeing a lot of attacks in the US and in Europe when ISIS was at its peak, as its... uh, uh, uh, at its peak strength, that was because they were able to radicalize online. Notice that they've stopped having that power, and it's because we actually took the fight to them.

Joe Rogan 11:23 Well, there- there certainly are some conflicts between their ideology and Western ideology, but why... and Western values, but why is it that they're dedicating their entire life to try to take down America?

Dan Crenshaw 11:37 Well, th- I mean, there's this-

Joe Rogan 11:39 Because this is always the question for us-

Dan Crenshaw 11:40 It is a question and it's-

Joe Rogan 11:41 ... as civilians.

Dan Crenshaw 11:41 And it's... And it's, you know, (laughs) you almost have to ask them exactly why. Right? But I mean, uh, at its core, we are infidels. At- at its core, there's... they- they're- they're taking an extreme view of- of Islamic fundamentalism and believing that we are infidels that must be destroyed. I mean, that's at its core. Uh, they're- they're... It's- it's less political reasons and a little bit more emotional reasoning. Um-

Joe Rogan 12:00 There has to be some- some part of it because of our policies and some part of it because of our actions and-

Dan Crenshaw 12:06 I- I don't know. I'm not so sure that we should always assume that it's our fault. And- and- and I think that's a common, uh-... that's a common theme, uh, in, in politics these days, where anything bad happening must be America's fault, it must be decisions we made. I mean, maybe. But let's objectively make the case if that, if that's, if that's true, I think there's an automatic assumption. And I, and it's not self-evident to me.

Joe Rogan 12:27 But if we're in ... What are we in? 100. And how many countries do we have bases in? What's the number? Do you know?

Dan Crenshaw 12:33 It's a lot. It might ... It's, it's definitely over 100.

Joe Rogan 12:35 Yeah. And if you were one of the people that is in one of those countries-

Dan Crenshaw 12:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:40 ... and you had to deal with that, and you saw, like, the drone attacks in Yemen that have killed people, and wedding parties, and the, the kind of shit that we hope never happens again, but has happened in the past-

Dan Crenshaw 12:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:51 ... you can kinda understand-

Dan Crenshaw 12:53 Well-

Joe Rogan 12:53 ... why there would be a hatred against the number one superpower in the world.

Dan Crenshaw 12:56 Well, opinions in these countries are not, are not homogenous.

Joe Rogan 13:01 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 13:01 All right? They're, they're, they're vastly diverse. There's a m- there's millions of people in Yemen probably begging for us to come there. Same with Iraq. Iraqis did not want us leaving. They knew this would go badly.

Joe Rogan 13:11 Hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 13:11 Um, but again, not all Iraqis, right? So it's, it's-

Joe Rogan 13:14 Just the ones who understood that-

Dan Crenshaw 13:15 Right. I mean, it just depends on who you talk to. Uh, so again, it's, it's, it's everything is more complex than a simple, than a simple black and white scenario where America's bad or good. It's just, it's, it's always more complex than that.

Joe Rogan 13:27 So you feel like if we did pull out of all these countries, particularly pull out of the Middle East, Afghanistan, and all the bases that we have over there, that it would be, uh, very similar to, like, what's going on in Iraq, what happened in Libya, there's a power vacuum, the vacuum gets filled by bad guys.

Dan Crenshaw 13:43 It'll 100% happen that way.

Joe Rogan 13:44 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 13:44 Um, you know, and it's, uh, I ... There's not a doubt in my mind, there's not a doubt in any expert's minds who's, who's looking at this. I would also say, w- when we're, when we have a base somewhere, that is, that is at the, that is, that is at the discretion of, of that, uh, local government. There's, there's no cases here, except in the case of Syria, uh, where, you know, their local government, (laughs) Bashar al-Assad doesn't want us there, that's the only case I, that I can think of in, in ... that, that we don't have an agreement, a status of forces agreement with the government there. So I, I, I, I don't, I don't think it's quite right to paint it as some kind of imperialistic occupation.

Joe Rogan 14:19 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 14:20 That's just, that's just not how we, how we do things.

Joe Rogan 14:22 And d- ... You all right over there?

Dan Crenshaw 14:25 Yeah, I'm just making sure this s-

Joe Rogan 14:26 (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 14:26 ... sound is off.

Joe Rogan 14:27 Good for you before anything actually did happen. N- now, um, do you think th- this is a, a political ploy, that this is a popular thing to say because so many people that have, uh, you know, a cursory understanding of foreign policy, they look at our m- military bases overseas, and they say, "Hey, let's bring those people back. Let's end these wars. Let's stop spending this money." But you're not the only one that's, uh, told me this. And particularly not the only one that's told me this that's has a military background-

Dan Crenshaw 14:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:55 ... saying it's virtually impossible to prevent any of this stuff without having bases over there.

Dan Crenshaw 15:01 That's 100% right. Yeah. I mean, and you, you need, you need that relationship with the host nation, of course, that you wanna partner with, and that's generally what we do, especially in the special operations community. When we're in a hundred plus countries, we're there to partner with them. We're not there doing our own thing. We're there partnering and training and, and equipping and, and enhancing their capabilities. So that, that's part of what we're doing. The n- the other part is just knowledge. We want to know what's happening. If we don't know what's happening, why do, why do we have embassies everywhere?

Joe Rogan 15:29 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 15:29 And part of that is just relationships and knowledge and understanding of what's going on, because we can't look at it from afar and actually get it. Uh, it just, it's, it doesn't work that way. So, and, and, and again, and I'm, I'm not ... I think it is reactionary to just assume that we have bad intentions all the time and that everything is America's fault. I hear that constantly. Um, mostly coming from the left, but, but that isolationist sentiment certainly comes from the right as well. And, uh, and it's a reaction. It's a reaction to the Iraq War and some of the mistakes we made there. It's a reaction to Vietnam. It's never, that's never left the American psyche-

Joe Rogan 16:04 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 16:04 ... uh, in many ways. But these, these matters are complex, and they, they deserve complex reasoning and analysis and a little nuanced understanding. And I, I just think that's how we should look at it. We don't, we don't say that we're always right. That's, that's not what I'm saying. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:18 Right. It's ... No one gets really educated on it. It's not like there's a cursory, uh, you know, examination of this that's given to the American person, like, when they sign up to register to vote. It's like you, you don't say, "Okay, before you vote, let's explain to you what's going on, and this is why there's bases here, and this is why we do this." And-

Dan Crenshaw 16:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:39 ... I mean, not even as a real simple explanation of these things. It's just you have to go searching for it, or you have to rely on political pundits who usually have a bias-

Dan Crenshaw 16:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:49 ... one way or the other. It's MSNBC or it's Fox News, and it's-

Dan Crenshaw 16:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:53 ... you know, you, you don't know where the reality is.

Dan Crenshaw 16:56 You can apply ... And you can imply that to not just our foreign policy, it's every issue.

Joe Rogan 17:00 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 17:00 You know, why are things the way they are? It's, it's a really good question to ask. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:03 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 17:04 When we're trying to find the solutions for the things we don't like, the first question we should ask is, "Why are things the way they are?" And that question really gets manipulated, uh, again, on any issue. And, um, it, it is unfortunate. How do we fix that? I don't know. My, my message wh- when, like, high school kids are asking me how do they get involved in politics, and what I tell them is, "It's okay not to know things, first of all. And it's okay not to choose a side just yet." Right? Because there's, there's nothing wrong with your ignorance on the why behind this issue. Th- there's nothing wrong with that. You're young, you don't have the experiences yet, it's fine. But there is something wrong with having a very strong opinion on that when you don't actually understand it.

Joe Rogan 17:43 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 17:44 That's, that's what creates the animosity. That's what creates the divisiveness. Because once you're emotionally attached to an opinion, it's, it, it's not easy to, to remove yourself from that. Uh, it, it takes a, a massive amount of, of, I think humility, um, and which is, it's an attribute we all aspire to but maybe don't have exactly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:04 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 18:04 Uh, and it's hard. And so, uh, it's, it's okay not to know and to ask questions and to just wonder and to think, "Uh, maybe what I'm hearing isn't exactly the whole truth. Maybe I'll look into it before I start posting on social media about how,"-... how awful that situation is or, or whatever.

Joe Rogan 18:18 People love to know, you know, even if they don't. They l- they love to be the person that has the information. And one of the things that social media has done is, uh, allowed this sort of text-based debate format where people can shut people down. "Wrong." And say this.

Dan Crenshaw 18:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:31 "The problem with that is this and this." And everybody wants to be correct about things because they're married to these ideas. If these ideas succeed, they succeed.

Dan Crenshaw 18:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:40 If they, they get a zinger off on someone-

Dan Crenshaw 18:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:42 ... in some sort of online political debate, they walk around with, like a fucking, like a peacock, strutting.

Dan Crenshaw 18:47 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 18:47 You know, like they won. They got one in. And for many people, this is, like, the only form of competition they participate in, which I think is a real problem in our culture. Human beings desire competition.

Dan Crenshaw 18:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Espe- especially men. It is a gi- and when they shy away from it, they usually become secretly, quietly angry, and they, they, they harbo- harbor resentment and bitterness, and they never understand the feeling of losing and getting better, the feeling of failing and improving, the feeling of not knowing something and then learning something. Like, these, these things are critical, and to pretend that you know something when you don't, it's a terrible way to go about your life.

Dan Crenshaw 19:27 Yeah. I mean, that's a very good point on the competitive aspects of things. Uh, you obviously compete a lot. I've competed a lot in my life, and I, I can't imagine a world where that didn't happen. And I can't imagine a world where I didn't have to suffer as a kid through some losses in my soccer game. And then when my parents didn't say, "Well, you deserved to win," they said, "Well, you lost." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:48 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 19:48 So, so that's what happens. And guess what? Welcome to life. And- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:51 Yeah, I mean, "We still love you, but you, you fucking lost."

Dan Crenshaw 19:54 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:55 And that's life. That's real.

Dan Crenshaw 19:56 Yeah, should've trained harder. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:57 It's, uh, the i- the, uh, they're doing that with these little kids, man. When my daughter was three, she had a soccer game where there was no winners and no losers. Like, uh, the other team fucking won. I watched-

Dan Crenshaw 20:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:07 ... the, the ball went in the goal. Everybody was cheering.

Dan Crenshaw 20:09 It happens.

Joe Rogan 20:09 Like, "What are we doing?"

Dan Crenshaw 20:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:11 "We don't, we're not keeping score?"

Dan Crenshaw 20:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:13 "This is bananas." You're gonna ... You know, it's soft times in this. This is what we're living in. Soft times create soft people.

Dan Crenshaw 20:21 Yeah, that's right. Um, and w- we talked about this bef- before the show.

Joe Rogan 20:25 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 20:25 I'm writing a whole book on this (laughs) actually.

Joe Rogan 20:27 I'm glad.

Dan Crenshaw 20:28 Uh, and, uh, it's about outraged culture. It's about becoming too soft. And, and, but I, but I try to make it a, you know, a, uh, a productive conversation. Each chapter will be lessons, you know, derived from my own experiences and, and derived from psychology.

Joe Rogan 20:44 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 20:44 Uh, derived from ancient truths actually.

Joe Rogan 20:46 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 20:47 Uh, there's, you know ... N- nothing I will say in this book is going to be new, but that's kind of the point, and that's how you know it's good. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:54 Yeah, we need to hear those things over and over again, s- you know. Sometimes you forget them. Sometimes they just need to be cemented in your psyche. And competition doesn't mean being mean. It doesn't mean ... People, uh, they're, they're associating it and equating it with either violence or aggression or, uh, toxic masculinity. There's all these words they kept throwing around for people feeling bad because they lost. But that feeling of feeling bad because you lost something is extremely valuable in your life. It ... And I don't wanna say-

Dan Crenshaw 21:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:23 ... it hardens you because it doesn't harden you emotionally. You still are the more, same amount of emotional availability.

Dan Crenshaw 21:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:28 But you get ... If you're accustomed to it ... And I always tell people, young men, get involved in martial arts. It, it ... Especially jujitsu-

Dan Crenshaw 21:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:36 ... 'cause you can do it, and you're not gonna get brain damage. You get strangled a bunch. You get your ass kicked all the time, and it teaches you humility.

Dan Crenshaw 21:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:43 It teaches you humility, and then you learn after that that you can get better, and then eventually, you become the hammer instead of being the nail.

Dan Crenshaw 21:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:50 And that's, that's something you can actually apply to your real life. You can understand that these lessons of failure and humility and humiliation and just getting pummeled, like, all that stuff pays off ultimately if you just keep showing up. And that's analogous to life. In life, if you can just keep showing up and keep working hard-

Dan Crenshaw 22:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:10 ... you're gonna have setbacks. You're gon- but you don't, don't let them define you. And you can move forward. But if you don't, if you just like, "The world's toxic. We need to nerf everything," and, you know, "Everyone needs a safe space. Well, we're, we're just gonna make a whole island full of pussies."

Dan Crenshaw 22:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:25 And we're in danger of doing that.

Dan Crenshaw 22:27 Yeah. W- we're definitely in danger of doing it if it hasn't already happened in many ways. And, and, like, what you're saying is intuitively true, that hardship creates a stronger mind.

Joe Rogan 22:36 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 22:36 Right?

Joe Rogan 22:36 Lessons.

Dan Crenshaw 22:37 B- but it's, it's not just intuitively true. This is, this is in data. This is in, this is in science as well, um, and in, in a lot of psychological research. You know, this is a- and, and we know it to be true. What, the reason I, like, act- I love the, the subject of psychology because it kinda tells us things that we already intuit to be true.

Joe Rogan 22:55 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 22:55 And, uh, and, and it just makes sense. And, and this is certainly one of those. And there's a lot of studies that show people who have suffered deep trauma, um, uh, e- end up better for it as long as they're telling themselves the right stories. And so this ... Like, I go into this a lot in my book too. You have to tell yourself the right story about that trauma. Uh, you have to tell yourself that you are resilient and that you, and that you are empowered to overcome it. That's, that's a very important narrative that you have to tell yourself. If you tell yourself it just happened to you and it's not fair and everybody's out to get you-

Joe Rogan 23:23 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 23:23 ... I wouldn't wish that psychological state on my worst enemies.

Joe Rogan 23:26 I agree with you.

Dan Crenshaw 23:27 'Cause, uh, well, maybe my worst enemies, but-

Joe Rogan 23:29 (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 23:29 (laughs) But, but that's the point, right?

Joe Rogan 23:30 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 23:30 Like, you would never wish that upon somebody you like. Uh, and that's, and that's, that's, that's an important truth I think we have to tell ourselves.

Joe Rogan 23:36 When you were in the military, is this something that they taught you, or is it something that you learn through example?

Dan Crenshaw 23:44 Uh, yeah, I think learned through experience. So, you know, the, the reason BUD/S ... So BUD/S is Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL training. It is, it is our six-month trial by fire, um, selection process that we go through to become a SEAL. It's the very first thing you do. And, uh, it's where you see all the infamous footage of G.I. Jane and Hell Week and all that stuff. That's all, it's all first phase in BUD/S. And so-

Joe Rogan 24:09 I like how you w- brought up G.I. Jane.

Dan Crenshaw 24:11 Yeah, well-

Joe Rogan 24:11 It's the most hilarious ... (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 24:12 Yeah. It is. That, that, yeah. I mean, it's probably the wrong example in hindsight.

Joe Rogan 24:16 (laughs) But it's a ... Out of all the Navy SEAL movies on military-

Dan Crenshaw 24:19 L- well, 'cause I, 'cause I, 'cause I can't think of any other movies that show BUD/S, um, now that, now that you bring it up. Actually, Lone Survivor at the very end.

Joe Rogan 24:25 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 24:25 The first intro, I think, has some BUD/S. Anyway, find it on YouTube. Uh, y- most people know what I'm talking about. But-... uh, is G.I. Jane is not a realistic movie. It's one of the least realistic (laughs) movies in, in every single aspect, uh, about the SEAL teams. But, eh, the point is, is, is that there is a ... There's not just a hardening of the mind that occurs, uh, from hell week. It's like a, it's a, it's an, uh, it's a increase in confidence in a pretty excessive way. Like, "If I can push my limits this far, imagine what else I can do." And, uh, and that, and then you, and you continue to push those limits. I mean, just, ah, even after hell week, you do it, uh, when you're, kind of, uh, what, what we would, what I would describe as controlled drowning in, uh, in second phase, where we, where we learn to be super calm under water under the worst conditions, meaning you can't breathe and you're about to pass out. Uh, and you're still going to go through procedures in a very specific way. You have to learn that, that, that calming, and then you, and you've pushed another limit, and you've pushed another limit. So, by the, by the time we do get to combat, uh, we have already suffered so badly

Dan Crenshaw 25:26 (laughs) in training that the combat doesn't feel all that bad, and, and we're ready to get y- your eye blown out of your head, like I did. Uh, you're ready for that. You, you understand it, and it's, it's not surprising. You don't react as, uh, in an emotional way when it does happen, uh, because you've allowed yourself to be hardened and you've told yourself the right story about that. What is a traumatic experience? I mean, uh, h- hell week can be (laughs) it, it really is. I broke my leg the first time through. I had to do it again. So-

Joe Rogan 25:55 How'd you break your leg?

Dan Crenshaw 25:56 Uh, just a stress fracture that turned into a fracture, and it just snapped at the, at the, uh, while we were running with the boats on our heads. So we run with these 200 or 300 pound boats on our heads that are basically the kind of boats that you use in, um, river rafting, and, but we run everywhere with them, um, with some estimates maybe up to 200 miles in just hell week alone. So, uh, it, it's, it's one of the reasons older, older guys, you know, maybe 25 and older have a lot of hard, a hard time getting-

Joe Rogan 26:20 Older guys?

Dan Crenshaw 26:21 ... through BUD/S.

Joe Rogan 26:21 25?

Dan Crenshaw 26:21 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:21 That's hilarious.

Dan Crenshaw 26:22 Yeah, because y- your, your body just breaks-

Joe Rogan 26:25 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 26:25 ... more, you know? Y- uh, our early 20s are probably the prime time. Your muscles are developed about that time. Uh, your bone structure can still handle the, the just immense amount of punishment that it's taking, and, uh, you know, except for mine, which we called it, you know, and then we'd make fun of each other and say, "Oh, nice weak genes you have there."

Joe Rogan 26:40 (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 26:40 "That's why you broke."

Joe Rogan 26:42 Okay. (laughs) So, your leg broke, and how much time did you need before you went back to do it again?

Dan Crenshaw 26:46 Uh, six months. I was enrolled three classes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:48 What, which, uh, which bone?

Dan Crenshaw 26:50 Left tibia.

Joe Rogan 26:51 Oh, okay.

Dan Crenshaw 26:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:52 That's a big one.

Dan Crenshaw 26:53 Yeah. Yeah, it hurt. Um, you know? (laughs) It's-

Joe Rogan 26:56 That's a dangerous-

Dan Crenshaw 26:57 It's-

Joe Rogan 26:57 ... one to break too. There's not a lot of blood flow there.

Dan Crenshaw 26:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:59 It's amazing that you got back in there six months later. A lot of times ... I know a guy who broke his leg, and, uh, he was, phew, he was fucked up for a good solid couple years.

Dan Crenshaw 27:08 Yeah, and, um, and it was a risk because we weren't sure. I, I, the, uh, frankly the command was getting impatient. They're like, "We're not gonna let you heal anymore. Six months is it."

Joe Rogan 27:18 Jesus.

Dan Crenshaw 27:18 "So, go for it." Um, and, uh, you know, and it, it, you know, it's not like a compound fracture either. This is a crack in the bone, so, m- m- maybe it ... and in any case, it worked out just fine. But, uh, it's a risky thing because you ... I knew it broke, right?

Joe Rogan 27:32 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 27:32 I, I, I mean, I felt it. I rounded a corner and my adrenaline kinda took me through the rest of that run, then we sit down for lunch, and I couldn't get back up from, from that seat. Like it was, it was ... The adrenaline had worn off. There was something bad, badly wrong there. And, uh, there's always this question that the instructors will ask, "Are you hurt or are you injured?"

Joe Rogan 27:49 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 27:49 Because there's a difference, (laughs) you know?

Joe Rogan 27:50 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 27:51 Like, and if you're just hurt, because everybody here is hurt, if you're just hurt, then you're just quitting.

Joe Rogan 27:55 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 27:56 If you're injured, okay, we might give you another chance, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 27:58 Isn't that interesting? That's a ... For the, the average person, that's such an alien thought.

Dan Crenshaw 28:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:03 It's an alien question. Are you hurt or are you injured?

Dan Crenshaw 28:05 Yeah. (laughs) It, it is, but there's a difference, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:08 There is a difference.

Dan Crenshaw 28:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:10 Yeah. Now, um, do they have any courses where they explain to you how your mind works and how to overcome the questions and doubts that, that creep into your head? Or they just, they're teaching you through fire?

Dan Crenshaw 28:24 Right. And we wouldn't want those courses, frankly.

Joe Rogan 28:27 Hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 28:27 Um-

Joe Rogan 28:28 So when you see all those, like, online people, "What you gotta do is you gotta face your fears and understand who you are."

Dan Crenshaw 28:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:34 "And, and see, it's gonna be okay." Does that-

Dan Crenshaw 28:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Does that drive you crazy?

Dan Crenshaw 28:38 No, no, it didn't drive me crazy. I, I don't mind that somebody's trying to do that. I, I say that we wouldn't do it because, uh, the point is, the point is that you're already that person.

Joe Rogan 28:48 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 28:48 You were a SEAL before you got there, okay? We're just, we're just making you prove it.

Joe Rogan 28:53 Oh.

Dan Crenshaw 28:53 But you were already that guy, okay?

Joe Rogan 28:55 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 28:55 Because you never had a choice, and, uh, there's another chapter in my book, I call it No Plan B. You go through this with no plan B. If you ever thought for a second that, "Well, maybe I can make it through BUD/S, like maybe I'll make it through hell week. I hope I do," you're not gonna make it.

Joe Rogan 29:09 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 29:09 That ... There's a choice there. You're, you're, you're, you're telling yourself that you actually have a choice.

Joe Rogan 29:13 I think that's with everything.

Dan Crenshaw 29:14 Yeah, and it is with everything.

Joe Rogan 29:15 If you have a-

Dan Crenshaw 29:15 I- I get it. This is-

Joe Rogan 29:16 ... Plan B-

Dan Crenshaw 29:16 ... it's an extreme example-

Joe Rogan 29:17 ... yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 29:17 ... but it's, it certainly-

Joe Rogan 29:19 The most.

Dan Crenshaw 29:19 ... applies to everything. If you ... It applied to my run for Congress.

Joe Rogan 29:23 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 29:23 Like, if ... I, I, I didn't plan anything after the primary on March 6th. I just didn't. Now, you could argue that that was probably not a great idea. Maybe should've had some kinda (laughs) backup plan.

Joe Rogan 29:33 Well, it worked.

Dan Crenshaw 29:34 But, but, but, but mentally ... It was more of a mental state than it was like a don't have a backup plan. I'm not saying don't have contingencies in your life. I'm just saying it ... only you know when you've actually decided to quit.

Joe Rogan 29:44 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 29:44 Right? Like, 'cause it's one thing to be like, "I have tried to be an artist for so long, and I'm just not good at it," and then you quit. Well, is it really quitting or is it just facing reality that you're just not good at being an artist, you know? That, so it's, it's different. You have to distinguish between those two things. But you know. You know if you quit because you actually quit. You gave up on yourself. And that's ... And, um, and nobody, nobody can really judge that for you, and I, I just, and that ... I think that's an important lesson, and that's how you make it through BUD/S, 'cause you never had a choice.

Joe Rogan 30:10 Yeah, I don't ... Yeah, I don't think there's, uh, uh, a way you can get through what I've heard described and while having a plan B, like, "I hope I get through this, but if I don't, I've got, you know, I'm gonna open this pizza place with my cousin and ... "

Dan Crenshaw 30:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:22 I always talk about it like bandwidth, and I always say to people, like, "If you wanna really do something, you only have a c-" like, let's call, let's like pretend you have, uh, like a certain amount of juice. Like, your juice is 100, and when it's fully on, you have 100. Well, if you take 30 of it and you put it towards this, and another 20 and you put it towards that, well guess what? You think you're all in, but you're really only 50% in, because you've got all this-

Dan Crenshaw 30:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 30:45 ... 50% of your juices, s- d- on all these different things. You gotta be 100% involved in what you're trying to do at your best.

Dan Crenshaw 30:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:53 If you're not ... Like, for fighting, that's a big one. When I tell guys, uh, uh, there's a lot of guys that I know that are kinda one foot in, one foot out, and I'm like, "Get out."... get out 'cause there's a fucking animal out there.

Dan Crenshaw 31:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:03 There's some Mike Tyson when he was 20 years old and he's gonna rearrange your liver.

Dan Crenshaw 31:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:07 Like, don't do it. Get out now because there's people that are all in. And when you're half in, those people that are all in, you become their highlight reel.

Dan Crenshaw 31:15 That's a good... That's probably good advice. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:18 It's the best advice.

Dan Crenshaw 31:19 (laughs) It's the-

Joe Rogan 31:19 It's the best advice.

Dan Crenshaw 31:19 ... best advice. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:19 You, you see it. You see guys that are just starting to think, "Well, maybe one more fight," and like, "Fuck. Stop."

Dan Crenshaw 31:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:25 "Just stop now."

Dan Crenshaw 31:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:26 "Don't do it."

Dan Crenshaw 31:26 That's how you get hurt.

Joe Rogan 31:27 Yeah. It's, um, it's, uh, it's an interesting thing because of this world where there are so many people that are teaching lessons, that are teaching, you know, what you got... But then there's real ones like Jocko, you know? Like b- w- when a, when a guy like Jocko says something, everybody listens-

Dan Crenshaw 31:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:42 ... 'cause he's done it.

Dan Crenshaw 31:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:43 Like, this is real shit. And, you know, you see his watch every morning on his Instagram, 4:30 in the morning.

Dan Crenshaw 31:49 So annoying.

Joe Rogan 31:50 He's up. (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 31:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:50 It's fucking very annoying when you wake up at 8:00 and you feel good about yourself. (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 31:53 And not a morning... W- we're not all morning people, Jocko.

Joe Rogan 31:55 He's not either. Guess what?

Dan Crenshaw 31:56 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:57 He's not a morning person either.

Dan Crenshaw 31:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:58 He'd like to sleep in.

Dan Crenshaw 31:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:59 But he gets up and he fucking gets after it. And that guy's fuel for m- fucking millions of people in this country.

Dan Crenshaw 32:05 He is. He- he's great.

Joe Rogan 32:06 Because of his books and his videos and all the t- That video, Good, you've seen that video?

Dan Crenshaw 32:11 I don't think I've... I've seen a lot of them.

Joe Rogan 32:12 Fuck.

Dan Crenshaw 32:12 I'm not sure which one you're talking about.

Joe Rogan 32:13 Man, the one Good, I think about that when I run 'cause, uh, like, w- it's, it's talking about things going wrong, good.

Dan Crenshaw 32:19 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:19 Ch- chance to get better, good.

Dan Crenshaw 32:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:21 You know, everything fell apart? Good.

Dan Crenshaw 32:22 You're, you're welcoming the failure.

Joe Rogan 32:23 Regroup. Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 32:23 You're welcoming the failure.

Joe Rogan 32:24 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 32:24 And like, that's a just... When I, I, I was on his podcast a, a, a while back and I hadn't gotten to his book yet and I was like, "Jocko, I'm so sorry. Haven't read your book yet." He's like, "It's fine. There's just... It's, it's one lesson you have to know. Everything is your fault." It's Extreme Ownership. He's like, "Everything we learn on the team..." So, I'm like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, I know that," 'cause you taught it to me.

Joe Rogan 32:43 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 32:43 'Cause you were... You know, he was the, he was the head of Trade It when I went through and, um, God, he just crushed us. (laughs) Like, every-

Joe Rogan 32:50 I'm sure. (laughs) I'm sure.

Dan Crenshaw 32:51 Every, every, uh, every training op was, uh... (laughs) It, it was, it was awesome.

Joe Rogan 32:57 There's people in this life that are born to crush things.

Dan Crenshaw 32:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:59 That guy's born... He's put here to crush things. He, uh, rolled with my friend John, my friend John Dudley, who's a, a professional archery coach and a bow hunter. And, uh, he wanted to learn jujitsu. So, he started taking some classes and then he rolled with Jocko.

Dan Crenshaw 33:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:13 And Jocko literally broke his neck. He broke a bone in his neck and he didn't even mean to. And-

Dan Crenshaw 33:18 Broke his... Broke the other guy's neck?

Joe Rogan 33:20 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 33:20 Just to be clear. Okay.

Joe Rogan 33:20 He broke John's, a bone in John's neck.

Dan Crenshaw 33:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:23 He's got something in the back of his throat that still tickles him to this day, where it's calcified.

Dan Crenshaw 33:27 None of this surprises me that Jocko broke somebody's neck. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:29 No. I told him, I'm like, "Don't fucking roll with that gorilla."

Dan Crenshaw 33:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:33 "What are you, cra- He, that guy's 5'10", he weighs 240 pounds. Don't fucking roll with him."

Dan Crenshaw 33:37 He's a, he's, he's, he-

Joe Rogan 33:38 He's a terrifying person.

Dan Crenshaw 33:39 Built for jujitsu. Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:40 He's built, built to snap things off.

Dan Crenshaw 33:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:42 That's what he's built for.

Dan Crenshaw 33:43 It's, it's exactly right.

Joe Rogan 33:44 But people like that, that, you know, have real lessons because of real success and real failure in life-

Dan Crenshaw 33:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:52 ... and th- a real understanding of what it takes to motivate people and what it takes to be a leader-

Dan Crenshaw 33:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:57 ... like, I think those guys are extremely valuable. But they get watered down by so many people that are out there giving lessons and, and like-

Dan Crenshaw 34:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:04 ... making a career out of being a motivational speaker when you just wanna grab them and go, "What the fuck have you done?"

Dan Crenshaw 34:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:11 "What have you done other than motivate people?"

Dan Crenshaw 34:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:14 And, and with words that are... You've just... You, you like collecting words out in the field and jumbling them together and you're like a, a word harvester and you're putting them together, but they're not really coming from a real place.

Dan Crenshaw 34:25 Yeah. And then the question is, are they even... Are they successful? May- maybe they are.

Joe Rogan 34:29 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 34:29 Um, but you're right. If, if you're not backing it up with, I think, real experience and a real story to, to, to, to frame the argument that you're trying to make... And maybe the argument's the same as the other guy that you're talking about it who doesn't really have the experience. But if it's gonna be powerful and meaningful to somebody, I think it does have to come from a place of experience.

Joe Rogan 34:47 Well, it's one of the reasons why I, I really like politicians that have served. I think it's so critical when you're talking about sending people overseas to have an honest understanding of what that really means and to have been there. It's one of the reasons why I really like Tulsi and it's one of the reasons why I really like you. I think that is... It is a giant factor. I mean, I don't want it to be mandatory, but goddamn, when, when people start talking about going to war and they have no understanding personally about what that means, it bothers me.

Dan Crenshaw 35:16 Yeah. And it's, uh, going to war or not going to war.

Joe Rogan 35:18 Yes. Or not going to war, right.

Dan Crenshaw 35:19 But, but both of, both opinions.

Joe Rogan 35:20 Both.

Dan Crenshaw 35:20 Because, uh, again, what me and Tulsi really disagree on fundamentally, I think on a deeper level, is whether our troops out there are victims or not. And I, I do... I, I think there's a common misunderstanding that our troops don't wanna be there, that our troops are being victimized by our bad political decisions. And that's, to me, as one of those people who voluntarily goes out there, which is, by the way, everybody 'cause everybody volunteers to, to do it, um, you know, that's, that's a deeply problematic opinion because it's just not true. Uh, you know, the, the truth is, is that we want to be there. We want to be serving.

Joe Rogan 35:54 Have you ever debated her on this and had her clarify her positions?

Dan Crenshaw 35:58 Uh, no. No. We- we've... I mean, again, we talk a lot. But, uh-

Joe Rogan 36:02 It'd be interesting-

Dan Crenshaw 36:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:03 ... to have you guys sit down and talk about it.

Dan Crenshaw 36:05 Yeah. Uh, we c- uh, again, I, I like Tulsi, so-

Joe Rogan 36:08 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 36:08 ... that'd be-

Joe Rogan 36:09 Well-

Dan Crenshaw 36:09 ... one of these days we should- we could do that.

Joe Rogan 36:10 That's also nice too, that you guys have these differing political philosophies, but yet you can be friendly with each other. 'Cause in today's day and age, I mean, I don't know what the fuck happened. Somewhere around 2016 when Trump won, everybody went haywire.

Dan Crenshaw 36:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:23 And now you're either with us or against us. You, you can't talk to Republicans and if you do, you're a bad person and you're a part of the problem and you're probably a white nationalist. And like, it's just... It's the most divided I can remember ever this country being.

Dan Crenshaw 36:37 It... Yeah. It's insane. Um, now on Capitol Hill, it's a little less. Like, I think behind closed doors, people do talk to each other-

Joe Rogan 36:46 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 36:46 ... quite a bit. And I think it'd be good if the American people understood that that's actually what happens. Uh, so they... We, we do debate vigorously in public.... and, and some of us don't talk to each other, just to be clear. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:57 Why don't you guys host a reality show?

Dan Crenshaw 36:57 It's not, not every ... Not everybody. (laughs) Yeah, it wouldn't that make ... Well, we kinda do, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:01 Real people of Capitol Hill? (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 37:01 I, I mean, between ... We, uh, kinda do. I mean, I put so much of w- what I do every day out on, on social media-

Joe Rogan 37:07 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 37:08 ... as, and others, as other members of Congress do sometimes.

Joe Rogan 37:10 Well, it's a new thing, right?

Dan Crenshaw 37:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:11 It's-

Dan Crenshaw 37:12 And it's, it's a great way for people to get to know you. I think that there's a lot of value in that.

Joe Rogan 37:15 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 37:15 Uh, you know, the, the old political way of thinking is don't say too much because th- you'll get crucified for it, and, uh, stick to your talking points because there's just ... There was, for a long time, and there's still th- there's, uh, still this argument to be made that there's no reward for being open and honest about things, for having that nuanced conversation. And, uh, that, that is still true, by the way. I've, I've certainly discovered it on my own. Uh-

Joe Rogan 37:38 Really? How so?

Dan Crenshaw 37:39 But just the, the backlash.

Joe Rogan 37:40 You don't think there's a reward?

Dan Crenshaw 37:41 It's just, I think the backlash that you'll get from, from certain groups of people is, is, is quick and swift and unforgiving. And this is-

Joe Rogan 37:49 Um-

Dan Crenshaw 37:49 And this is why, this is why ... Uh, now, again, is it worth it for me? Yes, I think it is because I'd still rather have that open conversation. I'd rather-

Joe Rogan 37:58 No, I think, though-

Dan Crenshaw 37:58 ... sit with you for hours and actually get through this stuff.

Joe Rogan 38:00 I think that that backlash is just the vocal minority, and I think there's a tremendous amount of people that are happy, uh, that you've done that and support you for doing that. They're just not vocal about it. They just-

Dan Crenshaw 38:13 I think you're probably right.

Joe Rogan 38:14 For ... I'm fol- ... I know for sure 'cause when I talk to my buddies that, uh, you know, when I said, "Hey, I'm having that Dan Crenshaw," and they go, "Oh, I fucking like that guy, man." I'm like, "Did you ever post on his Twitter?" "No." "You ever post on his Instagram?" "No."

Dan Crenshaw 38:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:26 They ... There's s- a lot of people like that. They just ... Most people are not gonna comment on a YouTube video, most.

Dan Crenshaw 38:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:33 The vast majority.

Dan Crenshaw 38:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:34 Most people are gonna watch and go, "Oh, that was good," or-

Dan Crenshaw 38:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:36 ... "That fucking sucked."

Dan Crenshaw 38:37 I have never commented on a-

Joe Rogan 38:38 That's it.

Dan Crenshaw 38:38 ... single YouTube video. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:39 There you go.

Dan Crenshaw 38:39 That's exactly right.

Joe Rogan 38:39 I mean, no, I mean, I have disparaged people who comment on YouTube videos in the past, but, look, I don't have a cubicle job. People get fucking bored. I'd probably be commenting too. But the, the idea that just the people that are angry at you are the only ones that are th- uh, paying attention, that it's all backlash, I think you're just not see- you're not reaping the-

Dan Crenshaw 38:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:59 ... positive aspects of it immediately, yes.

Dan Crenshaw 39:00 No, there's perspective. Perspective is hugely important. A- and you- you- you're absolutely right. Um, but, you know, trying to move it to the political culture, trying to move it into this, a little bit more of an open and honest, nuanced discussion, uh, I think is important. And, and, and we just ... I wanna be part of that solution, and it's why I come on a show like this. It's why, it's why other politicians come on shows like this. It is moving in that direction, and I think it's a g- I think it's a cool thing.

Joe Rogan 39:27 I think so too, and I think people need to understand that there's ... You know, what are the motivations behind these decisions. Like, what, what's the, what's the thought process behind these decisions?

Dan Crenshaw 39:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:37 You just don't never get that on one of those panel shows where there's two people barking over each other-

Dan Crenshaw 39:41 No.

Joe Rogan 39:41 ... and you get five minutes to talk.

Dan Crenshaw 39:43 Less than that.

Joe Rogan 39:44 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 39:44 You know, and, um, it's ... That's why on every major bill, I'll put out a video.

Joe Rogan 39:48 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 39:48 And I have to be conscious of how deep I can go into the policy because, again, people will just stop listening at a certain point, so there's, there is a th- th- th- the appetite for long-form discussion isn't all that big. But two, three minutes, five minutes-

Joe Rogan 40:00 Is this on YouTube, or what do you p-

Dan Crenshaw 40:01 I put 'em on YouTube. I put 'em on Insta- ... I, I put 'em on all my social media accounts, so ... And on every big bill, on every big bill that we're voting on. Um, and I just try to explain, "Okay. Why am I for this? Why am I against this? Here's the reasons. Here's what the other side says. Here's what I say about that. Okay? And so just let me explain to you why I do what I do." And, and, and, and it's turned out people really like that.

Joe Rogan 40:21 No, people love that, and they s- ... It didn't exist before.

Dan Crenshaw 40:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:25 I mean, we, we are the first generation that's experiencing politicians having their own channels to express themselves. You used to have to go to NBC or CBS or what have you to ... in order to ... and you had to-

Dan Crenshaw 40:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:38 You had to be prominent enough to have a conversation with someone. Like-

Dan Crenshaw 40:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:42 ... they're only gonna talk to a select number of people, and the only reason why they're gonna talk to those people is 'cause they think those people would be viable in terms of the amount of numbers of people that would tune in so they can get a good advertising money for it, and that's really the market. That's what it was all about. We're in this new world now.

Dan Crenshaw 40:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:58 You know? And I think it's for the better for everybody.

Dan Crenshaw 41:01 It is. It is. I mean, uh, like everything, it's got its pros and cons. Um-

Joe Rogan 41:04 What are the cons?

Dan Crenshaw 41:05 Well, the c- ... Uh, just a l- ... Uh, social media in general, I think, allows a lot of the, that, that vocal minority who's mostly angry, and it, and it elevates that to a, to a high extent, um, and it makes us a little angrier at each other, I think.

Joe Rogan 41:19 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 41:20 And, and that's, that's just a downside. Now, does, does that mean I wanna get rid of social media? No.

Joe Rogan 41:24 What is your take on what we're seeing now with social media in terms of, like, algorithms that, uh, sort of accentuate that, that, that hate, where they find the things that piss you off, whether you like to post about immigration or abortion and whatever it is-

Dan Crenshaw 41:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:39 ... and that's what-

Dan Crenshaw 41:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:40 ... you're gonna find in your feed?

Dan Crenshaw 41:41 It puts that in front of you.

Joe Rogan 41:42 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 41:43 Um, you know, I think I've ... My, my concerns with the social media companies are more the censorship issues.

Joe Rogan 41:49 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 41:49 That's what I-

Joe Rogan 41:49 I was gonna get-

Dan Crenshaw 41:50 That's-

Joe Rogan 41:50 ... to that next time.

Dan Crenshaw 41:50 Yeah, and that, and that's generally what we talk about. Um, I don't th- I haven't thought a whole lot about the algorithms and how that works. I kinda wish they would do it differently. Uh, but they don't, and I can't force them to do, do it differently. But maybe they should recognize that it is accentuating that anger quite a bit-

Joe Rogan 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 42:07 ... and, uh, you have to ask yourself at a certain point, "Well, why? Why- why- why- why encourage that?"

Joe Rogan 42:13 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 42:13 It's not, it's not helpful, so ...

Joe Rogan 42:16 No, it isn't helpful, and it seems like it's only for profit. The-

Dan Crenshaw 42:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:20 ... the reason why they do it is-

Dan Crenshaw 42:21 R-

Joe Rogan 42:21 ... 'cause the more people click on things, the more advertising revenue they're gonna generate-

Dan Crenshaw 42:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:25 ... and the best way ... I mean, it's not a malicious idea. It's just the algorithms have figured out what's the best way to keep people engaged-

Dan Crenshaw 42:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:31 ... and that's through outrage.

Dan Crenshaw 42:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:33 It's not through, through cuteness and-

Dan Crenshaw 42:35 Yeah, it is.

Joe Rogan 42:36 ... adorable memes.

Dan Crenshaw 42:36 And it's, it's, it's frustrating that you know, you know what tweet is gonna get 50,000-plus likes.

Joe Rogan 42:44 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 42:44 It's gotta be hard-hitting. It's gotta be punchy.

Joe Rogan 42:46 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 42:47 It's not gonna be like a ... Your, your, your nuanced, thoughtful take on issue X is, is not gonna get a ton of traction, and so there's an incentive there. And again, so we can ... And it's not totally the social media companies' fault. Like, we always have to look to ourselves as a culture-

Joe Rogan 43:04 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 43:04 ... I think, and be a little introspective and, and just ask ourselves, like-... why am I re- do I wanna be this way?

Joe Rogan 43:11 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 43:11 Do I wanna be that person that reacts so angrily that... and... d- d- that- that- that post comments to somebody that I would never have the guts to say to their face.

Joe Rogan 43:20 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 43:20 You know? Do you really wanna be that person? We- h- we do have to ask ourselves, as a culture, about that. And- and- it's this... You know, it's- it's- it's a lot of what I wrote about after the Saturday Night Live thing. Like, let's... We- we have to get to this point, and it's a pretty low standard, where we're attacking ideas and not people-

Joe Rogan 43:35 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 43:35 ... and not the- the intent-

Joe Rogan 43:36 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 43:37 ... and character of people. And, uh, it- it's a low standard, (laughs) frankly-

Joe Rogan 43:41 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 43:41 ... as far as political discourse, but it's a- it's a good place to start.

Joe Rogan 43:44 It is a good place to start. And there is a problem with the gatekeepers of social media in that these companies are all left with their policies. I mean, they might be right in terms of their business practices. And David, uh, Pakman came on here and argued that, and it actually makes a lot of sense that... in terms of, like, how they still, uh, shuffle money overseas and avoid taxes and they do-

Dan Crenshaw 44:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:08 Th- there's a lot of right-wing business practices. But my thought on that is it's probably just compartmentalization and you're dealing with business people that have taken over some multi-billion dollar corporation, and that this is the business aspect of it, and then you've got your social engineering aspect of it. And the social engineering aspect of it is... it's very problematic for me. Um, there was an article that was written recently, and one of the guys, uh... he was saying something about me in that, no, silencing white nationalism and keeping them off your platform is not censorship, which is the- w- the- the dumbest way to sort of boil down my position on censorship and il- ignore the real problems of other people deciding what someone can or can't say and what is or is not offensive. One of the best examples is a woman named, uh... I think it's s- Morgan Murph- Megan Murphy. Megan Murphy is her name. She's a... what's called a trans-exclusion- exclu- exclusionary? What's the word?

Dan Crenshaw 45:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:11 Why- why are my heart... Exclusionary. Trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a TERF. And she was in an- a debate with... sh-

Dan Crenshaw 45:19 I- I don't blame you for not being able to remember that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:20 Trans-exclusionary, but exclusionary is a weird word. She was in a debate with people about whether or not trans women should be able to invade feminist women's spaces, so a person who's biologically male-

Dan Crenshaw 45:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:34 ... who becomes a female later in life should be able to make decisions in feminist debates and deci- and- and- and she's-

Dan Crenshaw 45:41 Right, and get into their sports and all that.

Joe Rogan 45:43 So she says... Yes, the sports is the big one for me. P- particularly fighting.

Dan Crenshaw 45:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:47 She says, "But a man is never a woman." This is what she says.

Dan Crenshaw 45:52 Okay.

Joe Rogan 45:53 So Twitter asks her-

Dan Crenshaw 45:54 Real-

Joe Rogan 45:54 ... to take it down.

Dan Crenshaw 45:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:54 So she takes a screenshot of that. She takes it down, takes a screenshot of it, and reposts it, like, "Fuck you." Like, "I'm gonna p- put it back up again this way."

Dan Crenshaw 46:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:02 They ban her for life. For life. You know who's on Twitter with no problems? OJ Simpson!

Dan Crenshaw 46:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:09 OJ Simpson murdered two people. He fucking went to jail for armed kidnapping and he's on-

Dan Crenshaw 46:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:15 ... TV. He's on every day. "Hello to the world."

Dan Crenshaw 46:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:17 He's fine.

Dan Crenshaw 46:18 Hamas, a- among other things, too.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Hamas is-

Dan Crenshaw 46:20 (laughs) I mean, I- like, that's-

Joe Rogan 46:20 This... M- Megan Murphy, she says, "A man is not a woman." She's fucking correct biologically.

Dan Crenshaw 46:27 Yes.

Joe Rogan 46:27 She's biologically correct. I mean, if we wanted a side socially-

Dan Crenshaw 46:30 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:30 ... and culturally that we- we are going to accept this person as a woman, this is a completely different discussion, but she's right. She's biologically correct.

Dan Crenshaw 46:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:38 A scientist would say, "Well, here we go. We've got some chromosomes here, and we've got X and Y, and this is a penis, this is a vagina. This is a man, this is a woman. And, you know, maybe this person identifies with being a woman." But she's saying, "You're not a woman," and y- you're banning her for life.

Dan Crenshaw 46:52 It's-

Joe Rogan 46:52 This is crazy. This is-

Dan Crenshaw 46:54 That is. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:55 But it's woke culture in its most boiled-down form. It has nothing to do with white nationalism. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with a person that feels like their own particular protected group, being a feminist, being a woman, and- and- and trying to, like, carve out rules where women are protected. And she's saying, "Well, I don't like the fact that these trans women are entering into this space and dominating it in certain aspects."

Dan Crenshaw 47:20 Right. And it's- it's an example of this intersectional coalition that they've created s- tr- coming-

Joe Rogan 47:24 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 47:24 ... coming- coming to terms with itself. And, you know, they... a lot of the feminist groups aligned with us against the Equality Act because the Equality Act would have put in- into real practice this... in- in- into concrete terms, uh, biological men getting into women's sports.

Joe Rogan 47:40 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 47:40 And so a lot... a- a- among other things, by the way, that- that... and s-... A lot of feminist groups were- are finally coming out and saying, "No, this is not correct." Like, "We- we- we're a feminist group, so let's protect women," uh, which I fully agree with. And... But o- you know, on a deeper level, it's interesting to watch that intersectional coalition just implode.

Joe Rogan 47:58 Well-

Dan Crenshaw 47:58 And it- and it stems from this desire on their part to- to- to divide everybody up into three categories of oppressed, uh, the oppressors, and then the- then the champions of the oppressed, right?

Joe Rogan 48:10 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 48:10 And the woke culture is the champions, of course. Th- that's how they label themselves. They re- they label their intersectional coalition as- as the oppressed. And then they lump... And then they have this whole other kind of intersectional coalition of oppressors, and they connect it all with the worst of the worst, which is white supremacists-

Joe Rogan 48:25 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 48:26 ... Nazis.

Joe Rogan 48:26 Nazis.

Dan Crenshaw 48:26 And so you're all... And they say you're all connected with that somehow, even- even if you're just making a- a- a pretty bland statement about, uh, biological men and women. Somehow that connects to this. And- and- and this is how you see them reason their way through it. And, uh... and what th- and what that does is it undercuts real basic arguments because you're attacking the intent of that argument, because you're connecting it with the worst of the worst, right?

Joe Rogan 48:51 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 48:51 Not... We kill Nazis. That's-

Joe Rogan 48:52 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 48:52 ... that's what our country does. We did it. And so if you're connecting all of these things you disagree with with that, well, you don't even have to make an argument anymore.

Joe Rogan 48:59 Yes. And the idea that you're going to somehow or another convince people that everyone is a Nazi just because you say so, that's not gonna work.

Dan Crenshaw 49:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:10 What- what- what's gonna work is people are gonna just... They're gonna go to the other side.... you, you're making more Republicans with this crazy talk. You, you, you're-

Dan Crenshaw 49:17 Well, I hope so. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:18 Well, that's really what's going on. I mean, my friend Chris Pratt wore a T-shirt that said, "Don't tread on me." But-

Dan Crenshaw 49:22 (laughs) I remember that. Yeah, there's something about that.

Joe Rogan 49:23 What the fuck, man? It's a, it's a goddamn ancient flag, uh, representing our separation from England and our, our w- want to be able to start our own country. I mean, that's what it was.

Dan Crenshaw 49:36 It, it... Yeah, exactly. And it gets to a deeper culture war. It, one of... There's many fronts on the culture wars. This is a big one. Is America based on bad things or good things? Are we good, intrinsically good, or are we bad? Th- this is, this is a huge fissure in the culture war right now.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 49:52 And, um, you know, when, when we... And I, and I have a lot of fear that, that, that these things are boiling up and that we're destroying the things, the few things that hold us together. You know, as a country, like, what makes us Americans, it's, it's not ethnicity, it's not religion, it's not even really geographic area because our geographic area has changed over time. It is, it is ideals. It is ideals. And those ideals are symbolized by certain things. In the US cons- the US Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Pledge of Allegiance, the flag, uh, the national anthem. Like, these things matter. And I, and I think they're very important for a culture. And, and be- and this actually all ties back into this sort of oppress or oppressed kind of ideology. Because if you tell people that they're oppressed, well, then they have to look for an oppressor. And that starts small. It starts with your parent or your boss or somebody you don't like. "Okay, it's their fault. That's why I have something bad happen to me. It's somebody else's fault." Then it grows into groups. Okay, now you get into identity politics and pitting identities against each other. Then you're starting to blame institutions, okay? And this is kind of the, this is, this is... You know, when we talk about Bernie Sanders, this is... He's doing this often. He's blaming institutions for our, for our, for our issues constantly. That has met em- that has morphed into blaming the entire country. The entire country as a, as an American ideal is to blame. And I, I just think that's really... Both, I think it's historically inaccurate, I think it's inaccurate objectively, but I, I just think it's dangerous. I don't think it can go anywhere good. Unless you just want total revolution, which I think some people do. Um, it just, it tears us apart, right? And we're getting divided along... We're, we're, we're allowing the pop culture to get involved in this too, so we can't share pop culture anymore, uh, because, you know, musicians are getting involved in politics and comedians and late night shows. And it's like, "Okay, well, now half the country can't even watch it because those people are just telling them how stupid they are."

Joe Rogan 51:45 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 51:45 We're losing these basic symbols that bring us together, and then we're also losing the pop culture that kind of brings us together. That should be something we can just share and then not talk politics, but that's been removed as well. And I just... The, the, the culture war is, it's, it's not going in a good direction.

Joe Rogan 52:02 I'm hoping that this is an adolescent stage in the development of this strange country that's an experiment in self-government. That's what I'm thinking. And I think this, this experiment in self-government, which is a completely new thing in human history that's redefined the way the rest of the world governs itself. I mean, this, that's what America really is. Is it perfect? Fuck no.

Dan Crenshaw 52:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:20 But humans aren't perfect. There's not a goddamn human anywhere that's perfect. There's not a single culture anywhere that doesn't have something that's inherently wrong with it.

Dan Crenshaw 52:29 It, it's the best system for imperfect human beings, right?

Joe Rogan 52:32 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 52:32 And it's, it's a system based on the, the fact, the, the, the unavoidable fact that we are imperfect.

Joe Rogan 52:39 Yes.

Dan Crenshaw 52:39 Okay? And that, and that you cannot, you cannot constrain mankind's nature to the extent that progressives would like to. There's, there's a belief, uh, from, and it stems from just Marxist ideology and kind of French Revolution thought that you can perfect human nature, that you can get people to be perfect eventually if you just give the state enough control and, and, and stop certain thoughts that are bad, keep those down, keep these, elevate these other ones. You can eventually get us to where we think we should be. Uh, I think that's utopian. I don't, I don't see how that's ever possible. And I think our, our US constitutional system understands that. You know, it's, it's not, it's not like the founders got together and just made a bunch of stuff up, right?

Joe Rogan 53:19 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 53:19 They were, they were, they were very well versed in history. They, they studied it relentlessly. And they took ideas from Jerusalem and Athens and Rome and London. They took all these best ideas and these best practices and they said, "This is probably how we should govern." We're first gonna say why government exists, okay? We're gonna say that in the Declaration of Independence. When John, Thomas Jefferson wrote that, the Declaration of Independence was, wasn't just declaring its independence, it was also declaring why government exists. And it exists to protect unalienable rights, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. And he gets these ideas from guys like John Locke who said, "Life, liberty and property," or, "those are unalienable rights." And you protect rights. You can't give them to people, but you can protect them because they're already inherent in you. They're natural rights. Okay, then the Constitution told us how to govern. It's like, how do we live together? Well, there should be checks and balances. You should have an emphasis on local state control, because, because the problems are closest to the people and they should be closest to the representatives down at that level. Um, 51% of the population shouldn't be able to tell the other 49% what to do. You know, we should have an electoral college so that the biggest population centers can't tell everybody else what to do. There's important structures, like, embedded into the Constitution that have, that have allowed us to actually last, I think, as long as we have. We have the oldest political doc- it's the oldest document in the world. It's the oldest constitution in the world. So we're the youngest, one of the youngest countries, but we're the only ones that had such a longstanding constitution. I think that's important to realize too.

Joe Rogan 54:44 It's very bizarre that they had the insight to realize that shit could go so sideways, that they put all these checks and balances together that actually can reasonably well, in a reasonably well way work today.

Dan Crenshaw 54:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:56 I mean, there's a lot of people that disagree with a lot of the aspects of it. One person, one vote, they would like that. They don't think that representative democracy is as important now because we have this ability to communicate that we didn't have in the 1800s. You know-

Dan Crenshaw 55:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:08 ... you had to send a fucking pony with a letter on it in order to get your word across. Now you can actually tweet and you could vote online if we so deem it and we made it legal.

Dan Crenshaw 55:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Um, but...... the, the electoral college, do you feel like that that, and especially with, like, things like superdelegates, do you think that that's still the way to do things and it's still an effective way to-

Dan Crenshaw 55:30 Yeah. It, it-

Joe Rogan 55:31 ... why is that?

Dan Crenshaw 55:31 Be- because the, the alternative is the 51% versus the 49%. And that, that, what that really boils down to is New York and, and, and, and Los Angeles telling everybody who the president should be.

Joe Rogan 55:43 But the f-... The vast majority of people don't live in New York and Los Angeles. New York is, like-

Dan Crenshaw 55:46 That's exactly the problem. Tw-

Joe Rogan 55:48 ... 20 million and seven... what is it? Nine million or something in New York?

Dan Crenshaw 55:51 I'm just saying, but th- th-... And, and that's the issue, right? 'Cause you, you really are... You're, you're, you're... A- and when people congregate in population centers, they also tend to start to think alike.

Joe Rogan 56:00 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 56:01 And I, I, I just think... And at a more fundamental level, look at the difference between Democrats and Republicans. People always wonder what that difference is. And there's a lot of differences, of course. But a really kinda simple heuristic to think about it is the word democrat and republican. (laughs) Okay? One believes in a pure democracy. One believes in a republic. I'm not saying democrats believe in total pure democracy. But, but when you're saying abolish the electoral college, you are saying pure democracy. You're saying 51% of the population can tell the other 49% what to do. The electoral college is a, is a check and balance against that that gives those states in the middle, uh, some kind of voice that they wouldn't have otherwise had. It makes them... Why is everybody in Iowa right now? Do you think they'd be in Iowa if, uh, if, if we didn't have electoral college?

Joe Rogan 56:43 Good deer hunting there.

Dan Crenshaw 56:44 Yeah. Well, that's a good reason to go. (laughs) But-

Joe Rogan 56:46 They like corn.

Dan Crenshaw 56:46 But, but, but the reality is is they would only-

Joe Rogan 56:48 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 56:48 They would only be campaigning in the big population centers. They wouldn't bother going to the rural areas, uh, because you're gonna get the most bang for your buck going to just the populated areas.

Joe Rogan 56:57 In terms of campaigning physically.

Dan Crenshaw 56:58 Campaigning physically.

Joe Rogan 56:59 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 56:59 And also, but also who you're accountable to, so that's the most important thing. Who are you accountable to? You're not gonna care if you're accountable to the rural areas like you should be and to the middle of the country like you should be because if you only care about 51% of the vote, you're just going to go to those main population centers. And you're only gonna talk to them, and you're only gonna care what they think. And I don't think that's good... That's not a good... That's not good for democracy, especially when we have such a wide diversity of preferences and, and, uh, just styles of living across the country.

Joe Rogan 57:27 Is it still that important to be physically in a place to campaign, like to physically go to Chicago to campaign or physically go to Iowa?

Dan Crenshaw 57:34 Yeah. People... I think people wanna see you, you know? There's a good argument to be, to be made that Hillary Clinton lost because she just didn't go to Wisconsin those last-

Joe Rogan 57:41 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 57:41 ... days. So I think people s-... Uh, people wanna get to know you.

Joe Rogan 57:43 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 57:43 People wanna see you.

Joe Rogan 57:46 Well, the g- the good argument with Hillary, too, is she... People didn't believe that she had enough energy to go and campaign.

Dan Crenshaw 57:52 And I don't know. I never met her.

Joe Rogan 57:54 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 57:54 (laughs) You know? Uh, I, I can't, I can't tell you what the inside look at that campaign was. It ju- I just know it didn't work.

Joe Rogan 58:01 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 58:02 Whatever happened. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:03 Um, when you think about what are the problems that we're facing today in terms of, uh, of voting and, uh, registering to vote and primaries and electing someone from, you know, your party to, to get to go against other parties and that this whole process is convoluted, gigantic involved process. Could that be simplified? Do you think that in, in any way doing something online and having your ability to register to vote when you get a driver's license-

Dan Crenshaw 58:37 Sure.

Joe Rogan 58:37 ... and that it automatically registers you to vote, is there other ways to get more people involved?

Dan Crenshaw 58:42 Well, you know, the, the... There's two different philosophies here, is are you just trying to get everybody to, to, to quickly spend five minutes of their day and then vote or are you trying to-

Joe Rogan 58:50 Well, that's what you're doing for the most part anyway, don't you think? A lot of people?

Dan Crenshaw 58:53 Uh, no, if, if you have to actually take the time to register and go to the polls, you're gonna do at least a little bit more research on, on what's going on, I think.

Joe Rogan 58:59 You haven't talked to my friends. (laughs)

Dan Crenshaw 59:01 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:01 So I, I have a lot of people that are-

Dan Crenshaw 59:02 I'm not saying everybody.

Joe Rogan 59:03 ... that are voting-

Dan Crenshaw 59:03 I'm not saying everybody, but, but you're gonna get-

Joe Rogan 59:05 ... that are barely paying attention.

Dan Crenshaw 59:06 But, uh, but I think you'll, you'll exponentially increase that number when you, when you... The, the other, the other problem is, is simple election security. And, uh, if we're worried about the Russians hacking on our elections, then I, I fail to see how putting everything online is also a good idea. Uh, so that's... Uh, you... We can't, we can't be worried about both things there. Um, and, and we are worried about Russians hacking our elections. They've obviously tried, when, when you look-

Joe Rogan 59:28 You think they've tried hacking the results? I mean, they've, they've clearly-

Dan Crenshaw 59:31 Uh-

Joe Rogan 59:31 ... tried to influence the way people-

Dan Crenshaw 59:32 But they, they did try.

Joe Rogan 59:33 ... interact with each other.

Dan Crenshaw 59:34 They tried everything.

Joe Rogan 59:34 What did they try to do?

Dan Crenshaw 59:35 Yeah. They did try to hack the results. They were, they're unsuccessful. One of the reasons they're unsuccessful is because a lot of our election machines are air-gapped.

Joe Rogan 59:41 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 59:42 Uh, and they're also different every county you go to, I mean. So it is a mess-

Joe Rogan 59:46 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 59:46 ... becau- because, you know, we allow county, states and counties to be in charge of that. But that also makes it highly resilient because it's so compartmentalized. I mean, so from an intelligence operations perspective, you want things to be compartmentalized, and our election system actually meets that.

Joe Rogan 59:59 So you-

Dan Crenshaw 59:59 And we're, and we're working a lot with... The DHS is working a lot with local authorities to even improve upon that a lot. So they were going in the right direction.

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 So you can't hack dangling Chads? Remember those things?

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:11 Dangling Chads. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 What were those... What was it called, those, those things that hung- Uh, that... It was just a hanging Chad. Hanging? Yeah, just hanging chad. Just hanging? Wasn't dangling? It could have been both. I don't know.

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:19 (laughs) That's totally different.

Joe Rogan 1:00:19 Do you remember that?

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 It was like, like they weren't exactly sure whether or not a vote counted. They had to, like, examine them.

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 That seems like a silly way to... I mean, d- if we could do banking online, why can't we vote online? I mean, isn't, isn't there a way-

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:33 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 ... to make something where it's hack-proof? Is that possible?

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:36 Uh, it might be. It, it, it might be. Again, um, but now you're getting into a problem with, with identity. You know, again, there's-

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:44 A lot of people believe you shouldn't even have any voter IDs. I think that's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 That seems crazy.

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:47 I think we use IDs all the time. I think you should have an ID to register so we know it's you.

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Right. Of course.

Dan Crenshaw 1:00:52 And then you should have an... Uh, you should just show your ID when you vote.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 But what, what I'm saying is, like, would it, wouldn't it be a better thing if more people voted? Or do you think that it's better if only the people motivated to vote and participate vote the way we're doing it now, where you have to register within a certain amount of time and you have to show up at an actual polling place?

Dan Crenshaw 1:01:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Do you think that's better?

Dan Crenshaw 1:01:09 It, it's not self-evident to me that by nature of more people voting things will get better. Uh, I'd like them to go vote. I'd like them to put in the work and the civic- and to do their civic duty and to get educated and go vote. I would like them to do that. But that's a separate discussion from just...... from, from removing safeguards on our elections just to ge- make it easier for them to do what is already quite easy. I mean, and there's, there's this weird argument against this, like, "It's so hard to vote, we're so suppressed." There's just no evidence of that. And I- it's just a-

Joe Rogan 1:01:39 It's not hard, but it's not as easy as it could be if you could just register online.

Dan Crenshaw 1:01:42 Yeah, I mean, I could make a million things easier but th- again, that remove safeguards that, that, that, that create safe elections and, and, and, and elections that we can have faith in, and this is a very important thing.

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 1:01:53 If a-a-and, and I think you see this when you have this discussion with people, they're already on edge-

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 1:01:58 ... about whether their vote really counts because, you know, some people think illegals are voting. Again, there's not a huge amount of evidence for that, either. It does happen, but it's, it's not-

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 How can illegals vote? D- I mean, don't-

Dan Crenshaw 1:02:08 In pla- in places-

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 ... they have to register?

Dan Crenshaw 1:02:09 In, in, in, in places where there's no voter ID, you can, you can make it a lot easier, so-

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 Where are there no, where is there no voter, voter ID?

Dan Crenshaw 1:02:15 I don't believe there is in California. Is that- am I right on that?

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 How dare you, California. Is that true?

Dan Crenshaw 1:02:19 I'm not, I, let's check on that. But, um, it's definitely not the law of the land everywhere. In Texas it is. So, Texas is a good example, I think, of like, very, it's very easy to vote. I, I just can't imagine that people don't think it's easy to vote in Texas. If you're a senior citizen or disabled, you can mail in your ballot 30 days prior, you have two weeks of early voting, you can go to any election place in the county and, and, and vote from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM for two weeks straight.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 And you just hold your ballot-

Dan Crenshaw 1:02:43 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 ... until the election.

Dan Crenshaw 1:02:44 And, and, yeah, I mean, and you just show your ID and you vote. I mean, this is, it, I, we feel in Texas like it's safeguarded. We're not, we're not overly worried that our vote doesn't count because it's canceled out by some fake vote. And, uh, and it's hard to, and it's hard to argue that, that there's, um, suppression either, because again, it's so easy-

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:02 ... to vote where you can go on Election Day.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 It's just a shame that we have so little faith in our ability to do things electronically that we're w- worried, and that we wouldn't want people to vote online because we're worried about people hacking it.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:14 Let's-

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 That, that is a shame because I just feel like if you could wa- like, maybe if you were gonna vote online, you would have to watch a five-minute video explaining people's positions on things.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:27 Explaining where they stand and why this makes sense, and show that you... And after that five-minute video, then you get to vote.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:34 Yeah, that's an interesting idea. Um, it, I'm not opposed to the, to the videos, of course forcing people to do things just generally speaking-

Joe Rogan 1:03:40 Right. That's true.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:40 ... is, is, is tough. Um, but it, it, it still goes back to k- how do you even know it's the right person who's sitting there at the computer?

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 That's true, too, right?

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:48 Yeah, I mean, that, that, that's the-

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 You photograph, I mean-

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:49 ... th- that, that's the difficult part.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 With your phone, you have face ID, you know?

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:53 Apple ID.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 Is, does, you know, use fingerprints with other phones.

Dan Crenshaw 1:03:57 Oh, sure. I mean, there's interesting ideas that you could, that you could look into-

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Yeah.

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:00 ... to make this work. But it's a pretty massive change and it'd be a massive federal takeover of what is-

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:06 ... what is constitutionally a state's right-

Joe Rogan 1:04:09 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:09 ... to, to implement that. So, you know, it's just... A- and then the question is, what are we trying to fix? You know, what we're gonna do is a massive change onto something, what kind of improvements are we expecting and why? I, and, and those are just good policy questions to ask. It doesn't mean we don't have those discussions, though.

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 But there's always been an issue with voter turnout, correct? I mean, isn't, it's a fairly s- insignificant number of people that actually wind up voting, right?

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:32 Yeah, but is that because, is that a, whose fault is that?

Joe Rogan 1:04:34 That's a good question.

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:35 It's the people who don't go to vote.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:37 (laughs) So-

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 So do you think that those people, like, "Fuck those people. They're just-"

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:41 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 "... lazy and-"

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:42 No, not-

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 "... shouldn't have a say?"

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:43 No, not at all. It's just that I just would encourage them to go vote.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Right.

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:47 (laughs) Like, it's...

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Right, but that-

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:48 You know?

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 ... isn't it been fairly consistent, like, the, the number of people that vote, the percentage of people that vote across the board?

Dan Crenshaw 1:04:55 Yeah. But again, it's, it's, it's not self, uh, it's not self-evident that that's a problem that gover- it's up to government now to force that into, uh, into a fix.

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 Mm-hmm.

Dan Crenshaw 1:05:05 Uh, uh, uh, you know, I, I, I'm not sure I see that argument. It's not self-evident that things would all be better if we forced people to vote or made it so easy that they didn't have to think about it at all and just got on their app and, and voted. So, again, it's, it's an interesting question, do we want to increase voter turnout and then, yeah, sure. How do we do it? Um, I think civic education is a more appropriate answer to that as opposed to, as, as opposed to making it as easy as buying something at the grocery store. With-

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Civic e- education in what form? Like...

Dan Crenshaw 1:05:32 Well, in our, I mean, in, starting