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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1354 - The Black Keys

The Black Keys is a rock band formed in Akron, Ohio, in 2001. The group consists of Dan Auerbach and Patrick Carney. Their latest album "Let's Rock" is available now everywhere.

Joe RoganhostDan AuerbachguestPatrick Carneyguest
Sep 20, 20193h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:01 – 1:04

    Warm-up banter: “late night TV,” Oprah jokes, and needing a real scientist

    1. JR

      Boom, and we're, we're moving. We're moving, gentlemen.

    2. DA

      All right. Well, we're moving.

    3. PC

      Good to see you.

    4. JR

      Thanks for being here.

    5. DA

      Thanks for having us.

    6. JR

      I'm a gigantic fan.

    7. DA

      We're fans of yours.

    8. JR

      You already know that, but, uh, now I get to tell you in person.

    9. DA

      Uh, I'm a big fan of yours, man.

    10. JR

      Well, thanks.

    11. DA

      You've become my... We were just saying on the way here, you've become my, uh, my late night television. I don't watch... I don't watch, like, uh, you know, Jimmy Fallon or anything. I put on your podcast on YouTube and just watch it.

    12. PC

      Just blew his fucking mind. Look at him. (laughs)

    13. JR

      Thank you.

    14. DA

      But you're also like my Op-

    15. PC

      Glad, glad you like it.

    16. DA

      You're also like my Oprah.

    17. PC

      (laughs)

    18. DA

      And I was thinking, like, you need a whole cast. You need, like, a Gayle King and a-

    19. JR

      I do.

    20. DA

      I'm willing to be your Dr. Phil.

    21. JR

      Ooh.

    22. DA

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      I need a science advisor.

    24. DA

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      I definitely need a real on, on-staff scientist to check things.

    26. DA

      Like Dr., uh, Oz?

    27. JR

      No, he's not real.

    28. DA

      And that's what I'm saying, you n- you need the-

    29. JR

      No, I need a real one.

    30. DA

      (laughs) Okay.

  2. 1:04 – 2:30

    Reality-TV absurdity: judge-show bailiffs, corruption jokes, and setups

    1. PC

      I like one of those, uh, TV judge bailiff, um, cops that stands in front of the judge. Just got arrested for murder.

    2. JR

      No!

    3. PC

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Really?

    5. PC

      Yeah.

    6. DA

      Dude, that's my favorite of all the kind of reality shows is, like, the Judge Judy bailiff character.

    7. PC

      (laughs)

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. DA

      Like, the guy's like, "That's right, Judge."

    10. PC

      (laughs) "That's right, Judge."

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. DA

      You have-

    13. PC

      It's amazing.

    14. JR

      Do you think he's, like, a DEA agent that eventually wants to try coke?

    15. DA

      (laughs) What, the bailiff?

    16. JR

      Yeah, like, he's just around s- I mean, he's probably a real bailiff, right? So he's probably around so many goddamn criminals.

    17. DA

      Man, I don't think that they're real bailiffs. I don't-

    18. JR

      I think-

    19. DA

      I haven't, I haven't got that.

    20. JR

      He's a fake bailiff?

    21. DA

      I just assumed. It's, it's Hollywood, man. I don't know.

    22. JR

      Hmm. True. But why would he just-

    23. PC

      It's... He looked like the same outfit from Night Court.

    24. JR

      It's not a complicated gig. You could just hire an actual cop, and that way you're doubly protected. You have a real cop that's standing there.

    25. DA

      Yeah, really doing it.

    26. JR

      Yeah, really doing it. And then I'm sure they can do that gig. Just find a guy who's nice.

    27. DA

      That's a... I think that's a much higher paying gig than a cop.

    28. PC

      (laughs)

    29. JR

      Yeah, so-

    30. DA

      And, and with, you know, with-

  3. 2:30 – 3:16

    OJ Simpson on Twitter and the wild world of athlete social media

    1. JR

      Have you guys been paying attention to OJ on Twitter?

    2. PC

      No.

    3. DA

      I mean, I-

    4. PC

      What's he doing?

    5. JR

      It's one of the strangest things ever. He's just talking on Twitter, just talking about, like, football and politics. And the f- the comments are just the most ridiculous shit, everything you would expect. I'm sure he can't read them.

    6. PC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      The comments are just filled with just s- murder jokes.

    8. DA

      Yeah.

    9. PC

      Really? Oh, wait.

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. PC

      No, not his comments.

    12. DA

      But, you know-

    13. JR

      His comments. Like, under his, like, his, his thing.

    14. PC

      Right, his com-

    15. JR

      He has this thing that under his-

    16. DA

      Does this all get-

    17. JR

      ... all the people that comment on his post, it's all just murder jokes.

    18. PC

      As long as he's not making murder jokes, I guess.

    19. JR

      No.

    20. DA

      My friend has the largest OJ Simpson T-shirt collection of, like, the "Free OJ, Juice is Loose" in the, in the world. And he had an exhibit here in LA a couple, a year ago at a museum.

    21. JR

      Yes.

  4. 3:16 – 7:27

    Jose Canseco: Bigfoot tents, steroids talk, and mismatched MMA fights

    1. DA

      Like, 150 shirts. Pretty, pretty amazing. But you know who I like to follow on Twitter? Which I, I... We were talking about it earlier, I don't really look at Twitter that much, but I do like Jose Canseco a lot on Twitter.

    2. JR

      Do you?

    3. DA

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      What does he talk about?

    5. PC

      (laughs)

    6. DA

      It's just, like, crazy. It's just extra crazy.

    7. PC

      (laughs)

    8. DA

      And he, he was offering, like, uh, for $2,000 you could go, like, spend the night in a k- in a tent with him.

    9. PC

      (laughs)

    10. DA

      And, like, look for Bigfoot. (laughs)

    11. PC

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      What? Oh my God.

    13. DA

      Yeah.

    14. PC

      (sighs)

    15. DA

      It started with him when he shot his finger off and then it fell off, you know, he was tweeting about that. That, that's what piqued my interest.

    16. JR

      When I was 19 years old, I worked at a place called the Boston Athletic Club, and Jose Canseco and some other baseball players walked in. It's am- amazing how big he was.

    17. DA

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JR

      He was huge. Like, a huge person.

    19. PC

      Huge.

    20. JR

      Like, a just gigantic man. And also handsome.

    21. PC

      Looked like a pro- professional wrestler.

    22. JR

      Looked like a fake person.

    23. PC

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      L- really didn't even look like a real person, just a giant, handsome super athlete. Came in to lift weights. I'm like, "Huh, how fucking weird."

    25. PC

      (laughs)

    26. DA

      Okay.

    27. JR

      You know? Like... (laughs)

    28. DA

      He's one of- he's one of only four people, I think, that has 40 home runs and 40 steals-

    29. JR

      Jeez.

    30. DA

      ... in a season. I mean, he was on steroids, I, I think.

  5. 7:27 – 13:40

    Doping ethics: Tour de France logic, kid influence, and hormonal fallout

    1. JR

      People are always gonna be mad at him forever because of the steroids thing.

    2. DA

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      Right? Because he told on those other guys that were doing it.

    4. PC

      Well, his oth- his other Bash Brother was found out, right? Mark McGwire.

    5. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DA

      I don't know, man. I, I, I, I don't know much about the, the, the... I mean, I know the difference between doping and steroids or whatever.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DA

      But I kinda feel like if you're... I don't know about steroids necessarily, but if you're, if you're riding a bike across France and, like... I don't know, I just, like, feel like you should dope a little bit.

    9. PC

      (laughs)

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. DA

      I'm not doing it. Someone needs to do it.

    12. JR

      Well, doctors have actually said it's probably physically safer to take the steroids if you're gonna do something like Tour de France, 'cause it's so insanely grueling on your body that you wanna be able to recover.

    13. DA

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JR

      But we have this weird thing, it's like there's a thing that makes your body work better but you're not supposed to take it. If you take it, we get mad at you. But we want you to do good, we want you to do your best, but we don't want you to take this thing. You could drink yourself to death.

    15. DA

      Oh yeah, yeah.

    16. JR

      We're never gonna stop that. But we don't want you taking steroids because then you'd be too big and you'd hit too many balls. Like, du- what? What? How come he can't, how come he can't do whatever the fuck he wants?

    17. PC

      It's either everybody, it's either everybody or nobody.

    18. JR

      Yeah. It's the cheating thing. The thing is it, it affects kids. That's where it gets dangerous is 'cause you, if you find out, oh my God, these guys just openly do steroids and they tell you what they do...

    19. PC

      Yeah, then middle schoolers will be doing it.

    20. JR

      Yes.

    21. PC

      They, some do.

    22. JR

      That's a real, that's the real fear, the real fear.

    23. PC

      It's a, and because that's, that, that would happen.

    24. JR

      Yeah.

    25. PC

      Because there's middle schoolers that are professionally, like, competitive-

    26. JR

      Sure, kids-

    27. PC

      ... all over this country.

    28. JR

      Kids in high school do steroids.

    29. PC

      Yeah, you know.

    30. DA

      I mean, like, I mean, also, you do s- you do a bunch... I know somebody that did a bunch of steroids and he was describing to me the process of... That he, he literally was doing it, wanted to bi- get big, you know. And, uh, I was like, "So what do you do, what do you do when you're big?" He's like, "Well, you gotta start taking these estrogen blockers and-"

  6. 13:40 – 19:21

    Dan quits smoking: cold turkey, weight gain, and the psychology of relapse

    1. JR

      How much does smoking affect the way you feel?

    2. DA

      Not smoking is a, is a ... I feel amazing, but, and it was a weird addiction I had, a heavy addiction.

    3. JR

      How many cigarettes were you smoking a day?

    4. DA

      A lot, man. Like, two packs easy.

    5. JR

      Whoa.

    6. DA

      For about, for like 18, 19 years.

    7. JR

      Ooh, that's a lot.

    8. DA

      I know, but then I'd, I, I, I had a, I had a baby coming and I just, uh, I had just set a date. And no books, no, no, no anything, no pills or anything. Set a date, and, uh, I bought a 12-pack of beer and four packs of cigarettes and went into my studio.

    9. PC

      (inhales deeply)

    10. DA

      And just smoked every cigarette and drank every beer, and just felt like shit on purpose, knowing that I wouldn't want a cigarette, and I never smoked a cigarette after that.

    11. JR

      Wow.

    12. DA

      But I did gain a lot of weight. I mean, chicken Parmesan tastes a lot better-

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. DA

      ... when you're not smoking cigarettes.

    15. PC

      (laughs)

    16. DA

      It's like, you know, I don't know, you have kids. I, I, I had my first kid last year, and you end up, you go through that, you know, I think most people go through that. You just realize like, "Oh shit, like I'm almost ... I'm 39. I gotta stick around for this, for this kid," and, "I cut the bullshit." So, that's what I was, that's what motivated me to, to do it.

    17. JR

      It really affects your taste buds, huh?

    18. DA

      I, I think it affects your m- your metabolism.

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. DA

      A lot.

    21. JR

      Makes you speedy, right?

    22. DA

      It makes you speedy, it makes you, it just, it s- satiates your appetite completely.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. DA

      You don't, like I w- I eat, I eat like normal meals now and I've gained weight. But before, I was realizing I was just like barely eating food.

    25. JR

      My friend Tony smokes, and he, he went down to the Juul, then he quit that to- uh, totally. Tony Hinchcliffe. And, um, he would smoke cigarettes before a show. I go, "Gimme one of those things." I go, "What does that do for you?" I go, "Gimme one of those things." And I, I lit it, and I, I hadn't smoked a cigarette in, you know, more than a decade. And I had, the last time I did, I did it for like a play. Uh, I couldn't believe how high I got. I'm like, "Oh my God, this gets you so high."

    26. DA

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      Like, it's crazy how-

    28. DA

      Well yeah, but it does the first couple and then-

    29. JR

      You chase the dragon.

    30. DA

      ... once you're back in there-

  7. 19:21 – 22:16

    Vaping, JUUL culture, and unintended consequences (kids, lungs, and regulation)

    1. JR

      Is there a difference as a cigarette smoker between the high you get from, like an American Spirit or, you know, a hand-rolled cigarette, versus, uh, like a Kool?

    2. DA

      You know, you just get r- I mean, when you're smoking cigarettes, you're just into your brand. And I got, I actually bought a JUUL based on a, a recommendation from a, from a friend years ago. Uh, so long ago that I'm, they follow me on Twitter. Like they must have looked at who was buying this shit, and I was one of the few people that was verified or something. It was 2014 or '15. And, um, that's when I knew, like when I... I knew that I could not be vaping. I hate it. And I was like a, the minute... And A, you look like a idiot, but B, like-

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. DA

      It's like temperature thing for me. It's like too, it's too hot. It's like fucking gross, and it's like might as well just not be smoking if you're gonna smoke the JUUL thing. But it's weird, 'cause my, my stepdaughter and all of her friends are like fascinated by the JUUL specifically.

    5. JR

      Mm.

    6. DA

      It's like a epidemic with these, like high school kids that want... And I was like, "That's a funny joke until you all get addicted to cigarettes, 'cause that shit's fucking real."

    7. JR

      But also, some kids are having problems with the oils in their lungs, right?

    8. DA

      I don't know.

    9. JR

      Yeah, there was-

    10. PC

      Yeah, some kids are not-

    11. JR

      There's been a few kids-

    12. DA

      That's probably, that's pro- that's pro- that was probably from not moving around. That's probably just from looking at their iPad all day.

    13. PC

      (laughs)

    14. JR

      I think they're-

    15. PC

      Oh, that's about-

    16. JR

      ... they were saying that they'd grown some sort of infections to their lungs. They'd damaged their lungs. I don't know if it's true though. You know, it's like one of those stories that I just looked at the headline and I didn't look into it at all.

    17. DA

      It's Facebook one-like post.

    18. JR

      Now, it's... Jamie, do you know, is that legit? Like did, have people really experienced severe lung disease associated with vaping? Is that real?

    19. PC

      I think they're trying to link it, or there has been studies saying that maybe this is from it, because there's some sort of chemical that's in it.

    20. DA

      It's bu- but that's probably just the, it's probably just the cigarette lobbyists trying to shut that down.

    21. JR

      Well, it's the number that's weird. It's like not that many. It's like a couple.

    22. DA

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      Like what are they doing?

    24. DA

      I don't know, man. But I don't th- I don't think that the government should be regulating that kind of stuff, to be... I mean, it should reg- make sure it's like safe, but they shouldn't outlaw it. And I saw that California or someone...

    25. JR

      Well, it seems easy for kids to get. That's where it gets weird.

    26. DA

      Well-

    27. JR

      That's like the reason why we keep kids from cigarettes.

    28. DA

      I don't know.

    29. JR

      It's not fair to get them hooked on something that's that physically addictive that young when your st- your brain is still forming, you know? You, it's like a sneaky trick-

    30. DA

      Yeah.

  8. 22:16 – 31:08

    Health fears to existential stress: heavy metals, mines, pesticides, and doctor bedside manner

    1. JR

      Fuck off.

    2. DA

      ... they're driving around in their Tesla, and I'm like, "That's a cool-ass fucking car." But what happens when you get, like a 300-pound battery full of heavy metals in the dump, like 100 years from now? I, I don't know what the fuck happens. Who the fuck knows?

    3. JR

      What is, what do they do with the, the metals from the batteries?

    4. DA

      Well, I'm just saying, man.

    5. JR

      They recycle them?

    6. DA

      These giant, I'm saying-

    7. PC

      That's what's in the JUUL. (laughs)

    8. DA

      No, I'm just... No, I'm saying like, I'm just saying, man, that the thing about the Tesla and all these electric cars is I think that they're really smart and cool, but I, but the idea of having to, to fil- filter all these rare earth minerals into one place-

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. DA

      ... that much.

    11. JR

      Right.

    12. DA

      It's the first time that's ever happened.

    13. JR

      It's a good argument.

    14. DA

      Well, I don't know. I, I-

    15. JR

      It's, it's an interesting argument.

    16. DA

      ... I had a, we had a buddy who d- who had leukemia and, um, bone cancer actually. And, uh, the doctor, his doctor, who wasn't a quack, I think he was at the Cleveland Clinic, was like, "This is from having too many heavy metals in your system. That's how you got this." He's like, "Your me- your heavy metals are out, out of control." And then, uh, h- the doctor said, "Did you grow up near a mine?" And the kid s- asked his parents, he's like, "What's this about?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, we had you on a commune in, in, uh, in, in Colorado. We lived there for your first year of life."

    17. JR

      In a mine? Like in an area with a mine?

    18. DA

      Like in a old mine. It was like an old mining town.

    19. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    20. DA

      Yeah, and he said, "That's probably what it came from." I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about, man. I'm a drummer.

    21. JR

      No, but that, that makes sense-

    22. DA

      That's amazing.

    23. JR

      ... that you would get that from a mine. I mean, if it gets into the air and into the atmosphere-

    24. DA

      Well, because you're, you're, you're, w- well, no, you're filtering like the heaviest-

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. DA

      ... metals down, so you're g- you're, like if y- I, I don't know if you've ever been to, like, uh, there's a town, what's it called? Uh, Jerome, Arizona. My wife's from, from Sedona, and near there, there's this little mining town called Jerome. It's really cool, like kind of touristy spot. But there's this giant slag hill. I mean, it's m- it's massive, and it's just like all of the, all of the shit that wasn't copper or gold or silver-

    27. JR

      Wow.

    28. DA

      ... but was heavier, and sinking to the bottom when they were looking for that stuff. And then they throw it... And that's the kind of-... shit that's the rare earth mineral stuff that they make, you know, cadmium, and whatever else, lithium.

    29. JR

      So it's just laying around?

    30. DA

      Well, it's just your- your- your- when you're- i- these mining towns would ice, would- would concentrate it.

  9. 31:08 – 36:56

    Stage anxiety and panic attacks: festivals, Red Bulls, and learning to stay present

    1. DA

      I mean, I've experienced ex- intense stress from doing the thing I love the most, which is playing, playing concerts. You know what I mean? I've experienced it firsthand, where it's like ... And it f- that's way different.

    2. JR

      When does it hit you? Like when-

    3. DA

      (laughs)

    4. Obviously I'm not like-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. DA

      ... telling someone their fucking loved one's like, about to fucking die. But uh-

    7. JR

      Do you still feel e- periods of stress?

    8. DA

      Man, it's all, for me, it's all about just being in the right head space.

    9. JR

      Mm.

    10. DA

      You know? I mean like, when we first started playing, we would play these indie rock clubs, you know, 'cause we, we come from that background. Like, I guess what they would call now hipster shit, or whatever. And that was just people who liked, you know, really passionate about certain types of music that wasn't massively appreciated. You know, which is still kinda what we're into. But w- because of that, most of the people that would be coming to our shows were like, the high fidelity type, record store clerk. You know, you're playing a show, and it's just like, arms crossed, but afterwards, like, "Pretty good." You know, we'd be little, we'd be like 22, 22 year old kids, and the, the, the, the gatekeepers were like 30, you know, 32 year old ... Now, I would look at them as pr- maybe being, like, uh, you know, the, uh, supportive. But at the time, it was, uh, more supportive. But at the time, it felt more like judging. You know what I mean?

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DA

      So if I get in the wrong head state, set, headset, head space, and I'm out on stage, I'm like, "Oh man, everyone's here to like judge, judge us or something."

    13. JR

      Mm.

    14. DA

      You know what I mean? Like, 'cause you're looking at this big crowd. But then, I have, you know, I ultimately do, I ultimately tell myself, I was like, the worst band of all time has probably played to more, more ... You know, like some terrible, like Menudo's played to more people.

    15. (laughs)

    16. You know what I mean? Like, this isn't that many people. There's like, like tonight, we're playing the Wiltern, there's like, there's like 3,000 people. It's like, let's be honest. Like, the worst standup comedian, like I don't know, or the, the w- the ... I don't know, man.

    17. (laughs)

    18. Like the, like, like the fifth Jonas Brother could sell 5,000 tickets in LA probably. So, it's less stressful when you've, when I like ... Or Gallagher too could probably sell 3,000 fucking tickets in Los Angeles. Come on. But that's how I look at it, you know? I'm like, "Oh, we deserve to be here more than that person does."

    19. (laughs)

    20. We put our time in.

    21. JR

      (laughs) That's a hilarious way to look at it.

    22. DA

      I'm serious.

    23. JR

      Well, why would you concentrate on things that you think that suck? Does that alleviate anxiety? Does it actually work?

    24. DA

      Uh, no, I read this thing, uh, that Captain Beefheart, one of our favorite musicians said, and it was like, "If you start, if you think about what you're doing, you've already lost the, the battle."

    25. JR

      Mm.

    26. DA

      And I, the, the, the reality is, is that I don't need to think about what ... And I know Dan doesn't either. We don't need to think about what we're doing. So because you- we're not thinking about what we're doing, like, the trick is to stay in the moment with the music. But I can play and not think about it, and then I start thinking like, "What's that person fucking thinking about out there?"

    27. (laughs)

    28. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm like, I got this other conversation happening here, I'm like, and I'll-

    29. It's an in- like an intruder.

    30. Yeah, just like, fuck it's, I like, like temporary schizophrenia. Like, from ...

  10. 36:56 – 40:19

    Hypnosis as performance therapy: Palladium relief, Grammys “smile programming,” and the mushrooms origin story

    1. DA

      But you know, I- I went to go see... I went to go see this dude here, uh, in, uh, in LA, in Santa Monica, named Kerry Gaynor, who like, he specializes in, like-

    2. (laughs)

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. DA

      ... fear... He's a hypnotist. I mean, look man, I didn't know what to do.

    5. Wait, wait a second. (claps hands together) This gets so good, man. (laughs) Keep going. (laughs)

    6. Dude, I didn't know what to do because I didn't... Like, a couple of friends are like, "Man, just get some beta blockers. Get some...

    7. (coughs)

    8. ... get some, uh, Valium. Drink some beer." Right? Like, I can't do any of that shit before I go on. Like, I- I can't be relying on that before I play. (inhales deeply) So I was like, I- I got a recommendation to go see this hypnotist who p- specializes in, like, quitting smoking and fear of flying, and also stage fright. He does a lot of, like, actors who are gonna do, like, plays for the first time. So I went to go see Kerry at his house and, uh, we were playing some shows at the Palladium, and he, he did this thing, hypnotized me, and the second night, like, I- I went back... The first night we played, I, it was a lot better. The second night we played, it was, like, pretty much gone, and then I woke up in the hallway of the Roosevelt Hotel-

    9. (laughs)

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. DA

      ... in the stairwell in my underwear at, like, 7:00 in the morning.

    12. (laughs)

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. DA

      And I'm literally in this, in the, in, I'm in the staircase-

    15. (laughs)

    16. ... in my underwear at 7:00 in the morning.

    17. (laughs)

    18. And I, I'm like, "What the fuck?"

    19. (laughs)

    20. And I just remember, like, this number, like, 708 or... I think it was, like, 7- 708. 'Cause I'd only been to the room one, like, two, two times. I'd never...

    21. JR

      (Puffing air) (laughs)

    22. DA

      And my girlfriend at the time was in there, luckily, and I went and knocked on the door. She's like, "What the fuck? Where the fuck were you going?" I was like, "I just don't know."

    23. (laughs)

    24. Hypnotism, it's real.

    25. JR

      Jesus.

    26. DA

      Have you ever been hypnotized?

    27. (coughs)

    28. JR

      Yes. Yes.

    29. DA

      Did it work?

    30. JR

      Yes.

  11. 40:19 – 46:58

    The Grammys and the machinery of validation: Neil Young, Bieber/TMZ, and why awards feel hollow

    1. DA

      "Whatever. Like, you're not supposed to be perfect. You're- you have no desire to be the... You know, there's no c- drumming competition you've entered." You know what I mean? And I was like... I came out of it like, "Yeah, fuck it." Like, "I'm supposed to just be here having fun," and that... It worked. And then I got really nervous a couple years later when we were supposed to play the Grammys, uh, on TV, and I just got really fucking nervous about- about it. Um, and I think I got nervous because it's just... It's, like, one of those things that's not natural for us.

    2. JR

      Right.

    3. DA

      'Cause, like, we're gonna be playing music on stage with all this pop music and stuff that has nothing to do with what we're about. Um, but we had- we couldn't say no. We had... I think we had to do it because we- we- we- we couldn't just knock it till we tried it. But, um, we had sat through the Grammy performance before and it... And it was atrocious.

    4. (laughs)

    5. I mean, it really is, like, so alienating for... I mean, especially when the big pop stuff comes out, it's like, what we do is- is- is some- is something different. You know what I mean? (inhales deeply) So I went to go see him before we played the Grammys, and he- he t- he did this whole thing. He's like, "Well, I'm gonna hypnotize." And I remember it, like, he's like, "When they tell you 30 seconds, you're gonna start... It's 30 seconds till you're on, you're gonna start smiling. When they get to, like, 15, it's gonna get bigger. When they say four, like, you're just not gonna be able to stop smiling." And I was like... Anyway, the shit were... Fucking if you watch the video, I'm just, like, smiling the whole time.

    6. (laughs)

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. DA

      And the minute the, and the minute the song ends, like, I just drop my drumsticks and like, "Get me the fuck out of here."

    9. (laughs)

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. DA

      "I'm never doing that again."

    12. (laughs) Ah.

    13. But it was. I will say, it was like... I think it's the best TV performance that-

    14. JR

      Why are you- you're never doing it again because you'd never perform at the Grammys again, or you'd never get hypnotized again?

    15. DA

      Oh, I would get hypnotized again if I needed it. I just... (laughs)

    16. The stress. Just the stress.

    17. JR

      Just the stress of doing that.

    18. DA

      Just the stress. Just the stress of doing that. I mean, I would-

    19. JR

      I think this is-

    20. DA

      I would do the Grammys again, po- possibly, sure. You know, but it was like, at the time, you know, it just seemed like unnecessary stress. And then, like, this whole, all this, I think, uh... I had a couple of issues about the Grammys because the first time we ever went, like, we won, um, two Grammys. It was... Like, this is the weird thing. We go and our... The awards that we're nominated for were given away at the pre-telecast. This is the first time we were nominated for a Grammys. This is on our record Brothers. So we're there, like, February of 2011. And, uh, my brother Michael was nominated for a Grammy, so he- he... For a re- record cover of the year for our record. So Mike wins a Grammy.... first, right off the bat, (snaps fingers) first award of the day, record cover, Mike wins. It gets down to like the alternate, the alt rock category, we win, like, rock performance of the year or something. We go in the Staples Center conference area, or wherever we go, collect our award, and we're standing on the side of the stage, and they say, uh, "Next up are the, uh, rock song of the year." They list all the nominees, including us. We're, so we stay there because we're now nominated for this award. And like, and also Neil Young for whatever song, and like, so Neil Young wins that. And then they're like, "This is Neil Young's first Grammy award." And at that moment, I was like, "What the fuck? My brother, Michael-

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. DA

      ... has had a Grammy longer than Neil Young."

    23. JR

      (laughs)

    24. DA

      I'm like, "That's so fucking crazy." I'm like-

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. DA

      And us two knuckleheads have two. And then we go and we win a Grammy right after him. We win the al- Alternative Album of the Year. So now we have more Grammies than Neil Young within tens- ten minutes. And w-

    27. JR

      Jesus.

    28. DA

      And, and I was like, "This is all kinda fucking insane, isn't it?"

    29. JR

      (laughs)

    30. DA

      Like, uh, none of it makes sense. I started looking, and none of my favorite bands have fucking Grammies. Like, The Clash don't have a fucking Grammy.

  12. 46:58 – 1:06:52

    Music industry economics: anti-bundling stance, streaming payouts, curation failure, and surviving labels

    1. DA

      That was the whole motivation behind this record, was like, it was to not, um, not partake in the current bullshit in the music industry, which is, so check this out. Do you mind if I explain it?

    2. JR

      Please do.

    3. DA

      Okay. We had a conversation with our manager, um, about this record, right, you know, release. We, and it like, it went from everything like, "We have f- family, we don't really wanna be on the road for 100 days this year. We don't necessarily wanna do anything we don't, we don't wanna do anything we're not excited about." You know, so it came down to the promotion and stuff, and it was basically it was like, "We wanna get in front of people and play our songs and have fun. You know?" And uh, and the conversation came up with about the actual album, like, um, Warner Brothers was interested if we wanted to bundle it. Which is when you include the record like, with a ticket. Right? And a lot of people have been doing it, whether you buy a T-shirt and you get a record, and it's a digital download link. Um, and I was like, "Well, how does that work?" And they're like, "Well, um, you, uh, you would give $5 from each ticket back to Warner Brothers. And then you would get a record sale." And I was like, "That doesn't make, that doesn't make any sense to, to me, and to Dan." And they're like, "Yeah, I know, well, you would, you, it's the only way you're gonna get a number one record. So if you want a number one record, you gotta do that." And I was like, "Well," I was like, "Well, um, so it's one-to-one, like we give five bucks back and then we get a royalty and we get a ticket sale?" They're like, "No, you don't get a royalty. And you only get a ti- you only get a album count- sale count if they click the link." And they have like, we have a 50% click-through. So, in other words, we would pay $10 per sale on Nielsen SoundScan...... by giving the money back that we've sold on tickets, uh, to Warner Brothers, to our record label." I was like, "Fuck that. Fuck that shit."

    4. JR

      Wow.

    5. DA

      At this point-

    6. JR

      That is a crazy deal.

    7. DA

      Check it out, we've sold 250,000 tickets on this tour. So we would give back 1.25 million. Our record advance for this record was less than that. So that, so it, I was like, if Dan and I were just doing our own record label, we could give ourselves $5 per ticket and count, and we just keep the, we just take the money from the right hand to the left hand, give you a link, if you counted it, we get the sale, we keep the money. That's basically what the fuck was going on. You know what I mean? And it's a, it's all based on fear, like all of this shit. It's like, do you wanna be relevant, you know? That's basically the conversation that, that is basically being had, not that direct, but it's like, as an artist, you better try to get a, get good numbers, get that sh- first week up there. And Dan and I are basically like, "Fuck that. Fuck it. It doesn't even fucking matter." People are gonna come to the shows or they're not gonna come to the shows. We're gonna make records, people are gonna buy them or they're not gonna buy them. Um, and I think that it's really, it's detrimental to the music industry, like to, (sighs) to pay too close attention to certain metrics, man. It's like, the, the whole system right now with these majors is like signing shit that has the most social media interaction, the most streaming. And I was like, you know what? When I was nine years old, I bought Vanilla Ice's Ice Ice Baby.

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. DA

      And I listened to that shit, like-

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. DA

      ... I'm not joking, like 250 times in a week.

    12. JR

      (laughs)

    13. DA

      Like, like a fucking idiot.

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. DA

      I was like, "That's who's listening to this shit, that's getting a billion streams in a month. It's like fucking nine year old morons."

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. DA

      It's like, it's like our fans, our-

    18. JR

      Ah!

    19. DA

      Like I, I like to think that our fans have like, you know, they've, they got like 150 albums that they listen to on a sort of rotation at least. And ours may be one of them a month. You know what I mean? So may, so it's like, it's a different fucking audience, you know what I mean? It's, I... You look at Instagram and you see these certain people who I've never even heard their music. They ha- and they have like 10 million followers.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. DA

      Um-

    22. JR

      The weird thing is th- that, that there would be any comparison at all. Like why, why bother comparing-

    23. DA

      Well, that's exactly right.

    24. JR

      ... you guys.

    25. DA

      That's exactly right. But that's the problem is that there, it, there are two different things at play, at play here. There's the music industry, industry itself, which is like, certain people who work in the industry, high ups, are like, "We need to sell records. We need to, we need like this pop producer to work with this writer and this artist, and we need streaming numbers." And then there's certain people, you know, like the old guard, like, uh, the Lenny Waronker or Seymour Stein or, you know, even s- you know, lots of younger guys too, but they're, you know, they're like, "Actually, what we're doing is curating art that we really like. And it's either gonna sell or it's not gonna sell." And a lot of the records that we grew up listening to, most of them, were records made by these kind of insanely eccentric weirdo people-

    26. JR

      Right.

    27. DA

      ... that never sold records, but have cha- literally changed our lives. And, and like Captain Beefheart being one of them, uh, you know, like, uh, T- Tom Waits has, has so- has sold some records, but still, like he's, it's a much different type of commercial viable thing. But the- these artists are why we make music. You know, it has nothing to do with this shit. It's like the difference between like the Vogues, you know what I mean? And like the Fugs. It's like there's a lot of these comparisons that you can make about w- what we do. And our place in the music industry is, is, is to do what we, what we do. And, and for a while, we were taking part in like the mainstream aspects of music. You know what I mean? We were playing like the MTV Movie Awards and having these insane weird experiences only because we, we hadn't done it before and we felt like we had to do it. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't have ch- I wouldn't change anything, but at this point, like I think steer, st- steering as far away from all of that shit is, is what we wanna do right now.

    28. JR

      Yeah, there's no reason to lump you in with anything. Like why, why would any... You know, that's one of the weird things about these award shows, right? You're lumping all these different musicians together that don't necessarily have anything to do with each other.

    29. DA

      No.

    30. JR

      They just all make music.

Episode duration: 3:13:47

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