Joe Rogan Experience #1361 - Cmdr. David Fravor & Jeremy Corbell

Joe Rogan 0:02 And here we go. Uh, first of all, gentlemen, thanks for being here. Jeremy, thanks for coming back again.

Jeremy Corbell 0:08 Thanks, Joe.

Joe Rogan 0:09 And, uh, thanks to you, sir. It's very excited to be here, very exciting for me to be here to be able to talk to you about your story.

Cmdr. David Fravor 0:17 Uh, thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Joe Rogan 0:19 Uh, David, tell everybody who you are, and tell everybody your background, please.

Cmdr. David Fravor 0:24 Okay. My name is David Fravor. Uh, I served 24 years in the military, enlisted Marine for a couple years. They sent me to the Naval Academy. And I flew for 18 years for the Navy. Um, had, literally flew A-6s, Hornets, and then Super Hornets. Had every qualification you could get in the airplane, everything, even the stuff they're not doing anymore, so I had NVG high and low, went to Top Gun. And at the time of the incident that we're gonna talk about, I was a commanding officer of VF-A-41, the Black Aces.

Joe Rogan 0:55 I'm, uh, I've gone through a, a journey with this whole UFO stuff, from being a full-on true believer, to being incredibly skeptical, to trying to be open-minded, to, uh, uh, being more of a believer now than I think I've ever been before. And one of the things that I've always said is, the people that I believe, the, th- there's a lot of loony people out there, but the people that I put my trust in are high-level military people, like yourself. So, when I hear someone like you, who has a story that defies logic or defies conventional understanding of how aircrafts work, that's when, that's when I sit back and I go, "Okay, this, this is a different thing." Because, you, you know, there's always people that are telling you they're psychic, or they can s- you know, they sense things, or they're in communication with Bigfoot. There's always loony people out there. But when someone is in the military, someone who's trained to fly these incred- I mean, how, how expensive are those jets?

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:54 Uh, when we had them, they were about $70 million apiece.

Joe Rogan 1:56 Yeah, they don't give those to morons.

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:58 Mm, typically not.

Joe Rogan 1:59 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 2:00 (laughs) Some people in my family would probably argue that point.

Joe Rogan 2:03 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 2:03 But, uh, hey, better lucky than good.

Joe Rogan 2:05 It just seems to me that this is, uh, for rational people, uh, that want to look at this whole UFO phenomenon objectively, you're the type of person that I wanna talk to. So, I was very excited to have you in here. So, what year was your incident? And you, you have a very, very famous incident that's corrob- corroborated by actual evidence, which is one of the rarer ones. What year was it, and where did it take place?

Cmdr. David Fravor 2:33 So, it was 2004, November 14th, off the, it's really, if you draw San Diego to Ensenada, Mexico, we're about 60 miles off the coast in between the two. We're doing workups, so when we get ready to deploy, this was for the 2005 deployment. Uh, we were going at sea for November and December of 2004. So, we had been out, I had just taken over the squadron mid-October, so I'd been the CO for a month. So, we go out, uh, and we're putting the battle group pieces together, so it's not just the, the air wing, but we were, you know, we're, uh, we're on the carrier. We've got the cruiser. We've got all the support ships out there. And we're gonna integrate all the defenses and train as one unit. So, the exercise that we're gonna do is an air defense exercise, where there's good guys, bad guys. They're all from internal from the air wing. So, the bad guys today are gonna be the Marines, uh, VMFA-232, the Red Devils. So, they're gonna launch and they're gonna go about 100 miles south of the ship, and we're the good guys. And it's, we call it a 2v2, so it's two of us against two of them. And we're gonna work with the USS Princeton, which is gonna be the controller, and they're gonna control the blue forces. And then the red guys are gonna give us a presentation that, you know, they're gonna try and intercept so we can stop them from getting up towards the carrier. So, that's kind of the training set that we're all good. So, the Marines take off first, and they start heading to the south. Now, we have no idea that for two weeks, this, the two weeks we've been at sea, they've been tracking these things coming out of the sky. And when I talked to the Princeton controller, he's like, "Up to about a dozen of them." They would come down from above 80,000 feet. They'd drop down to about 20,000 feet, they'd hang out, and then they'd go straight back up after about three or four hours.

Joe Rogan 4:06 Now, when you say, "They've been tracking them," who specifically?

Cmdr. David Fravor 4:08 This is the USS, the Princeton was tracking them. They saw them on the Nimitz radar, and the E-2 could see them. Um, so, 'cause they're out there, you know, that radar is on all the time. And, uh, the SPY-1 system on an Aegis cruiser is, you know, the state-of-the-art. It's probably the most, one of the most sophisticated systems in the world.

Joe Rogan 4:24 So, typically, when something like this happens and there is some unexplained phenomenon, what do they do?

Cmdr. David Fravor 4:31 Uh, in this case, they, you know, t- if it was a, if we were in a threat environment, they would tell us. But we were off the coast of San Diego, it's, it doesn't come to the air wing. So, we have no idea that these things are out there at all.

Joe Rogan 4:40 So, they observe these things, and they never bother telling any of you guys?

Cmdr. David Fravor 4:44 That's correct.

Joe Rogan 4:45 So, they just knew that these things had been visiting this area?

Cmdr. David Fravor 4:49 Yes.

Joe Rogan 4:49 But they just allowed this training exercise to take place anyway?

Cmdr. David Fravor 4:52 Yeah, th- m- talking to them, the previous, for the two weeks they would show up, but it was when we weren't flying.

Joe Rogan 4:57 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 4:57 So, the typical carrier schedule is, you know, for us it was about noon to midnight. It's a 12-hour day. There's reasons for that. You can go a lot longer than can... but for training, we just do the 12-hour day thing. And it's cyclic up, so you got guys taking off and landing periodically. So, we were on one of the first goes. You know, it's, you know, noon, 1:00, somewhere around there, and we take off. The Marines take off first. And my buddy, Cheeks, who was the CO of the Marine squadron, was the one, he was leading the red air. They had, when he launched off the carrier, first they called him up and said, "Hey, what do you got on board?" Well, the small, the original legacy F-18s don't have as much gas as the Super Hornets. The Super Hornet's about 30% bigger. So, they start talking to him about fuel, and based on how long we're gonna be airborne and everything else, they go, "Hey, why don't you just go ahead and proceed to your, your cap point," uh, 'cause we had just taken off. And that's when the controller had come up and said, "Hey," yeah, I forget, our call sign was probably, like, Dealer, is usually what we went. So, they'd be like, "Dealer 11, uh, this is, uh, Princeton control. What do you got on," you know, say your load out. (laughs) And I kind of chuckled, and he said, I said, "Well, I've got a CATM-9," which is, uh, it's, uh, basically just a blue metal tube with a seeker head for an AIM-9 IR missile. It's a training. It doesn't come off the airplane. You can beat it with a sledgehammer. That's the only way you're gonna get it off, or you gotta unlock the lugs with a key.So, I'm like, kind of chuckling. He goes, "Well, hey, we're gonna cancel the training." So we're like, "Okay." He says, "We got real-world vector, and they're gonna send us out to the west." So, picture if it's a, you know, if you've got a clock, the Nimitz is in the middle. Uh, we're a little bit, uh, south of that, about 40 miles south, and then the Marines are about 100 miles south of the ship. About 60 miles between the two of us. So, as th- this is all happening, my wingman is joining up. All right, and these are F-18Fs, so there's two people in each jet. So, it's me and my WSO, which is weapon systems operator, and I've got the other pilot and the weapon systems operator in the other jet. So, they tell us all this, "Hey, we're gonna have real-world vector," and they send us out 270 about 60 miles away from where we're going. So, now we're going out even further out to sea. We have no idea what we're intercepting, and this is when the- the controller starts talking to us. He says, "Hey, sir, we've seen these objects. They've been, for two weeks, they've been coming down." And he's giving us the whole story. He says, "We need you to go investigate. We wanna know what these are." So-

Joe Rogan 7:06 But they're asking you to investigate in a jet that's unarmed.

Cmdr. David Fravor 7:09 That's correct.

Joe Rogan 7:09 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 7:10 Yeah, we have no... I- and there's reasons for that, that we don't fly... We typically don't fly with live ordinance unless we're actually going into like, a combat zone-

Joe Rogan 7:18 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 7:18 ... or we're on a training range and we're gonna shoot something. And the reason is, you can go through (laughs) history of the Navy or Air Force, if you put live missiles on airplanes and then you start doing training where you're squeezing the trigger, someone always messes the switchology up and someone gets shot down. It's happened multiple times. So, we don't do it. You know, there's times that we do, but it's rare. So, we start flying out to the west. Now, I want you to think, because the other pilot has, uh, s- you know, when you talk to, it's- it's- it's out there, it was a female. When you talk to her, it's, uh, she, it- here's the kind of goes through the mindset of, okay, we're off the coast of Mexico, real-world vector, we have no idea what we're going to look at. Probably a drug runner-

Joe Rogan 7:56 Hm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 7:56 ... because you get the drug runners coming up the coast. So, we're like, "Okay." So, we drive out and the r- they're calling down ranges. So, they're telling us, "Hey, it's 270 at 30 miles at 20,000 feet." And it's, you know, and then he just counted down the range as we're, and we're talking back and forth the whole time. So, they got to a point where they say, "Hey, merge plot," which means radars have resolution cells, you know, range and azimuth of what the radar can actually see. Once you're inside that box, you can't tell the difference between me and the object I'm going at. We're just become one big blob.

Joe Rogan 8:28 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 8:29 So, they call a merge plot, and so the other jet is on my left-hand side, um, and we're gonna, and I'm gonna go to a clock code to make it simple. So, the object we're gonna end up looking for is in, right in the middle of the clock, and we are at the six o'clock position, and my wingman is off to my left side, so it's sh- she's further down with her WSO. So, as we're looking around, we- we look to the right, and there's a, i- it was pretty... Yesterday was a perfect example out here. The water is perfectly calm, no whitecaps. I mean, it's literally a perfect San Diego, California day. And we see white water. Somethin' like if you see a seamount, you know, a rock underwater when you're standing on the shore and the waves are breaking over it, and you're like, "What is that?" It's usually 'cause there's a rock under the water. So, it looks like that, but it's about the size of a 737. It actually kind of has a shape of like, a cross, and it's pointing to the east. So, you've got the long part going east-west, and you got l- couple of things going north and south. So, as we're looking at it, 'cause that kind of draws our eyes. We're like, "Oh, that's kind of odd." We look down and, uh, the WSO in the other airplane comes up and says, "Hey, skipper, do you," and that's about what he gets out of his mouth. And I'm kind of looking at the same thing and I go, "Dude, do you see that? What is that thing?" And what we see is this white, Tic Tac-looking object just above the surface of the water, pointing north-south, and it's going north-south, east-west. It's just radically moving forward, back, left, right, at will. And it's moving around the disturbance, the- the white water that we see.

Joe Rogan 9:53 How big is this thing?

Cmdr. David Fravor 9:54 So, uh, over time, it's about 40 feet long. And the way I estimate that is, I mean, I got a lot of time fighting other airplanes. So, it's about, about the size of a Hornet fuselage, so that's why I say 40 feet. And this thing's just going left. So, the first thing you see when you look down, you go... And this is with our eyes, it's not sensors, right? So, we're looking down at this thing, and first thing you think is helicopter, right? They're, uh, they, they, the helicopters typically stay below 200 feet when we're out there and they're just driving around. We're- we're pretty far away from the ship for a helicopter, for one of ours. So, what is it? So, the first thing you look for is rotor wash. You know, if you've watched any TV show that starts kicking the water up and you can see that. It's really easy to see from the air. So, we're like, "Huh, no rotor wash." Matter of fact, don't see any rotors. Don't see any tail rotor, don't see any, you know, the main rotors. We're like, "That's kind of weird." So, as we're driving around, we're looking at this thing. We get to about the nine o'clock position.

Joe Rogan 10:42 How far away are you from this thing?

Cmdr. David Fravor 10:44 I'm at 20,000 feet and it's right down on the surface, uh, to right off our right side, so I'm probably maybe a couple miles lateral and 20,000 feet, and we're just watching it move around. And-

Joe Rogan 10:54 So, it's very small in your eyes?

Cmdr. David Fravor 10:56 Um, not overly small. I mean, an airplane down that low, it's 40 feet, you can see pretty well.

Joe Rogan 11:00 You can see it?

Cmdr. David Fravor 11:00 Uh, with, it was pretty clear. So, I'm like, "Okay." So, I said, "I'm gonna go check it out." That's what we're trained to do. The other pilot says, "Hey, I'm gonna stay up here." And I'm like, "That's perfect." So, now we'll, we'll get some separation. We'll get it from different views. And the other airplane will have kind of a god's-eye view of everything that's going on as I go down to check this thing out. So, I start driving around, and it's still doing its forward, back, left, right. It's still pointing north-south. We get to about the 12 o'clock position. I'm just in a nice, easy descent. And the reason, you know, is because I've been asked, "Oh, could you go more aggressive?" You can, but when you're out over water, the water looks the same at 20,000 feet as it does at 2,000 feet. You don't, you know, so you can easily put yourself in a non-recoverable position if you're not paying attention and you go into the water. So, I got this nice, easy descent. I get to about 12 o'clock, and as I'm coming down, you know, I'm, yeah, I could guess probably about, you know, 18,000 feet now, a couple thousand feet below the other airplane. The Tic Tac just kind of rapidly goes up and turns, so now it's kind of pointing east-west, and now it mirrors us. So, it's above the surface. We're up high. We're coming down and it starts coming up. I'm like, "Well, this is getting interesting." (laughs) So, we kind of drive all the way around in a circle. I'm descending, it's coming up, and I get over to about the eight o'clock position of the...... on a clock, and it's over at about the two o'clock position. Well, the quickest way, as we know as kids, to get someone, you know, you can keep going around the circle, nothing's gonna happen. You cut across the circle. So, I'm about, I don't know, probably 2 to 3,000 feet above it, and I just kind of drop my nose aggressively and I cut across the circle. And it's coming this way. It's 'cause I'm trying to fly to where it's gonna be-

Joe Rogan 12:31 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 12:31 ... because I wanna join on it. I wanna see how close I can get to it.

Joe Rogan 12:33 Right.

Cmdr. David Fravor 12:34 And as I'm pulling up, it's kind of starting to cross my nose and it starts to accelerate, and within about less than a second, as I start to pull nose onto it and it crosses right in front of me, it just goes poof, and it's gone. So, I call the other airplane and I said, "Hey, do you guys, (laughs) do you guys see that thing?" And they're like, "Sir, it's gone. We don't, we don't see it at all." So, I'm like, "Okay. That's kinda weird." So, we, we don't see it. We're looking. At the same time, I say, "Hey, let's turn around and let's go back to see what was in the water," you know, there's, was there's something there. So, we turn around. We're right there. W- we haven't gone anywhere. It's gone. Water's perfectly ... there's no white water, nothing. It's just blue. I'm like, "Okay." So, we turn back around. Now, we're heading back out towards the east and I tell the controller, I said, "Well," I said, uh, you know, I first said, "I'm kinda weirded out," and I told my, my backseater that. And we start heading back, and the, the controller on the Princeton comes up and he says, "Sir, you're not gonna believe this, but that thing is back at your cap point." That was our original point where we were gonna hold 40 miles south of the ship. So, this thing just went from wherever we were at to, you know, about 60 miles in, you know, maybe 30, 40 seconds. It's already over there. And it just ... and they didn't track it. It just appeared. He just, uh, shows back up on the radar and they go, "It's here." So, we're like, "Okay." So, we fly back. We don't see it. We don't see it on our radar. We don't see it on any of our sensors. We do, like, two runs and we come back to the ship and land. So, as we're in our ... it's, we call it the PR shop.

Cmdr. David Fravor 14:05 We're taking off our flight gear. One of my crews is getting ready to go out-

Joe Rogan 14:08 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 14:08 ... and I think they were gonna be on a tanker mission, but they had a, a targeting pod onboard. So, they launch off, and we're telling them about this before, and I ... and, uh, the backseater, uh, Chad says, he, he's really determined. He said he's gonna find this thing. So, he tells the pilot, "Hey, we're gonna find this thing." So, they're just out driving around and in the back seat of a Super Hornet, uh, there's no stick, but there's side stick controllers, and they're to control the sensors, because that's what the weapon systems guys do. And they can change displays really fast by just hitting a button, and it'll flip from the radar to the targeting pod. And the way the system actually works is, when you see something on the radar and you designate it as your primary target, all the other sensors will look at that point. So, it's everything is kind of synced together. So, he picks up a hit on his radar and he goes to lock it up, 'cause I watched all the tapes. He goes to lock it up, and immediately the radar can tell, it gets signals back that it's being jammed. So ... and technically jamming is an act of war. It starts jamming the radar. Goes into a jam extrapolate, a bunch of stuff happens on the scope. Well, he's smart enough to castle to his targeting pod and he takes a passive track, and that's the video that you see of the Tic Tac, where it's just sitting in the middle of the screen real quiet. Um, so he does that, and he, and he goes through ... if you watch the video, if we had it I'd go through it with you, but, uh, they go through all the different modes. So, he goes, it's an IR and EO. EO is TV. It's a black and white TV camera.

Joe Rogan 15:30 We do, we can get the video, right, online?

Cmdr. David Fravor 15:32 Mm-hmm. Yeah, oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:33 Yeah, let's, let's get the video, Jamie. Where would you ... uh, can't show it to anybody.

Jeremy Corbell 15:37 Not on here, no.

Joe Rogan 15:37 We can't, we can't show it on YouTube, but you can see it and people will be able to go to it. You know what we'll do? Go to the video and we'll tell people when we're starting, and we'll tell people what the title of the video that you get to is, and they can sync it up themselves if they're watching it.

Jeremy Corbell 15:53 It's publicly owned. Sorry.

Joe Rogan 15:54 Yeah.

Jeremy Corbell 15:54 It's, it's publicly owned. It's, you know, American government released it.

Joe Rogan 15:57 Right.

Jeremy Corbell 15:58 So, it is actually something in the public domain.

Joe Rogan 16:00 So, you think we could play it on YouTube and not get pulled?

Jeremy Corbell 16:02 I-

Cmdr. David Fravor 16:02 Yeah.

Jeremy Corbell 16:03 100%.

Joe Rogan 16:03 You think so, Jamie?

Cmdr. David Fravor 16:04 I-

Jeremy Corbell 16:04 It's a government-

Narrator 16:05 Those things, I would say yes, we should be able to, but sometimes those things get messy. So, I just-

Joe Rogan 16:10 Let's take a chance.

Narrator 16:11 ... I can't. Okay, all right, all right, all right.

Joe Rogan 16:11 Let's take a chance with this one.

Narrator 16:12 All right.

Cmdr. David Fravor 16:13 I know if you go ... if, if you're on a New York Times article, there's a link to it.

Jeremy Corbell 16:16 It's, uh, Pentagon released-

Joe Rogan 16:17 This, YouTube is crazy with copyright stuff, and we, we've always been, like, two steps away from getting pulled off of YouTube completely. It's a real disaster. It's a re- ... I, I understand from their perspective, there's a, a lot of legal issues they have to deal with, but-

Jeremy Corbell 16:32 I have it on a private server. I could s- maybe send Jamie.

Joe Rogan 16:35 The issue I'd believe though is the actual copyright of the video itself.

Cmdr. David Fravor 16:39 Oh, that's just it. It's a Pentagon-

Jeremy Corbell 16:40 Pentagon released public domain.

Joe Rogan 16:41 Oh, okay. And the Pentagon's gonna come after us.

Narrator 16:43 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 16:43 Nah, I don't think so, man.

Joe Rogan 16:44 I don't think so either.

Jeremy Corbell 16:46 Uh-

Joe Rogan 16:46 D'you find it?

Narrator 16:47 Yeah, just, I wanna find a good version of the video that doesn't have somebody else's copyright.

Joe Rogan 16:50 Jeremy, do you know-

Jeremy Corbell 16:51 Yeah, yeah, I've got it.

Joe Rogan 16:52 Oh, okay.

Jeremy Corbell 16:52 Unwatermarked version. Let me just look it up and send it to you.

Narrator 16:54 Yeah, but then it has tons of watermarks all over it.

Joe Rogan 16:55 Jeremy will get it to us.

Jeremy Corbell 16:56 Uh, I have to figure out how to send it to you right here. Give me a second and-

Joe Rogan 16:59 Do you have, uh, AirDrop? Uh, could you AirDrop it and get a copy of it?

Jeremy Corbell 17:02 Yeah, but I got it on a pa- ... I got it on a page, a private page that can send Jamie.

Joe Rogan 17:07 Oh, yeah. Okay.

Jeremy Corbell 17:07 Okay.

Joe Rogan 17:07 Okay. Do you have Jamie's, uh, info?

Jeremy Corbell 17:10 Uh, no.

Narrator 17:10 Yeah, I think, uh, I already done it real quick.

Jeremy Corbell 17:11 Okay. I'll figure it out when he gets here.

Joe Rogan 17:12 Or, you could send it to me and I'll send it to him.

Jeremy Corbell 17:14 Okay.

Joe Rogan 17:14 That's pretty easy. Um, sorry to disrupt the momentum.

Cmdr. David Fravor 17:19 No, you're good.

Joe Rogan 17:20 Um, but, uh, I think this ... it's probably important to be able to have this, uh, the, the video itself so you can just talk about it. And, um, we're about to, uh, yank it up here. Oh, okay. Jamie wrote it down for you. There you go.

Jeremy Corbell 17:35 Okay. Just give me a second to get it out and ...

Joe Rogan 17:36 Okay. And for people who don't know, Jeremy, uh, also produced, uh, Bob Lazar, Area 51-

Jeremy Corbell 17:43 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 17:43 ... and Flying Saucers and he was in here when we had Bob Lazar in talk about Bob's experience. And Jesus, if that wasn't a, a game changer for me and for a lot of other people. This is a subject that it's so easy to mock, you know? This is why I think it's so important that we talk to people like you, because...... like I said, just your average everyday UFO crackpot, they believe everything and anything. Have you, uh, hey, did you, had you ever had any UFO experiences before this?

Cmdr. David Fravor 18:15 No. The, the irony... And I, I tell this story. My mother-in-law (laughs) , uh, she'll be listening, she, she had literally... Every time I would go home, she would ask me, "Hey, did you see a UFO? Did you see a UFO?" And I'd be like, "No."

Joe Rogan 18:26 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 18:26 And when I first started dating my wife, she was a big, like, National Enquirer. She had all the, the, the, you know, supermarket tabloids. And I would always just feed her crap for it. So, this happens in... You know, and I'm, I never say a word. So, my friends all knew. It was a great story over beers 'cause they'd go, "Hey, what's the coolest thing you ever saw flying?" I go, "I chased a UFO." And they'd go, "Get outta here." I go, "No, seriously," and I tell them the story, and they're like, "Dude." And I go, "Yeah." So, I go home and, and, uh, I got, got asked by Lou Elizondo to do the New York Times article, which as like anything else, I always say no. Like, it took a bunch of times to get me on your show. Jeremy kept asking, asking, asking, and it was-

Joe Rogan 19:01 Thank you, Jeremy. (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 19:02 My con- yeah, yeah. It was... You gotta thank my contractor's wife, Angel, who she... We were at a party drinking and she goes, "You gotta do Rogan." I go, "What?" She goes, "It's the biggest podcast on the planet." She goes, "You gotta do it." And I go, "All right, I'm gonna do it. Just for you, I'm gonna do this show," so.

Joe Rogan 19:14 Shout out to Angel.

Cmdr. David Fravor 19:15 Yeah, from New Hampshire. So (laughs) , um, so my mother-in-law were sitting there and, and I know the New York Times article's gonna come out and, and so I'm... It was at Thanksgiving in 20... When did the article come out? '17. So it was Thanksgiving in 2017. And everyone had kinda left the house, so it's just my wife and my in-laws. The couple was sitting in the kitchen and I said, "Hey, I gotta tell you guys this." They said, "What?" I said, "There's gonna be this article comes out in the New York Times and I'm in it." And they're like, "Yeah." I go, "Well, I chased a UFO." My mother-in-law's like, "Aha." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:45 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 19:45 She looks at my father-in-law. He's rolling his eyes, looking at me like, "Are you serious?" And I go, "Oh, yeah." And then, uh, she's like, "You never told us." I go, "I never really told anyone." I mean, my wife and kids knew the event happened, but they didn't have all the details 'cause it was just one of those things we just didn't... I just didn't get into.

Joe Rogan 19:59 Is it classified?

Cmdr. David Fravor 20:00 No.

Joe Rogan 20:01 Was it at any point in time?

Cmdr. David Fravor 20:02 No. There's a lot of rumors out there that, "Oh, it was classified and the ship got locked down." No, it wasn't. It was... We were never... Men in suits did not show up. Um, no one told us not to talk about it. And this is 'cause there's a lot of other people saying other things. And I said, "Let's look at it." Like, here's the context. So, in the battle group, you've got the admiral, you got the captain of the ship, the captain of the Princeton, and then you've got the other COs. So, in position wise, I'm probably, as the CO of a squadron, in the top 20 out of 6,000. And no one came to talk to me. No one came to take my tapes. No one showed up in a suit. No one told me not to talk. No one talked to any of my air crew that were involved in this all. There was six people total involved, the two that shot the video and the four of us that looked at it for five minutes with our eyes. No one... Nothing. It just, uh... And I can get into how, uh, the, you know, there's a report that, uh, that George Knapp got released. It's a... I call it the unofficial official report. Um, and I had met someone and I'm like, "Hey, can you find anything on it? I had this incident." And no- normally when you, you tell people this, they look at you like, "Dude, what are you smoking?"

Joe Rogan 21:12 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 21:12 I'm like, "No, no, I'm good. (laughs) I'm tested."

Joe Rogan 21:15 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 21:15 And they go... And, and they said, "Well, let me, let me see what I can do," and I'd got a call. Um, I was working, I was doing some aerospace work and I had gotten a call on my cellphone from a guy. And he said, "Hey, I wanna investigate your incident." And I go, "Okay." So, he did. He investigated the incident and it was very, very thorough. I mean, if, if you've read the... It's about 10 pages long. And he, I mean, he tracked down everybody. He tracked down all the people that were... the air crew that were involved. He talked to, he tracked down the admiral. He talked... I mean, he, he... It was a pretty thorough report. And I didn't think anything of it. You know, because, you, you know, the, the people who had worded it, it's out there, so they wanted to do FOIA, but it was never released in a FOIA request. I actually had the Navy call me. I'd been outta the Navy for like six years and, um-

Joe Rogan 22:00 Let's explain to people, that means, uh, Freedom of Information Act.

Cmdr. David Fravor 22:02 Freedom of Information Act. So, I got called, um, by a public affairs person from the Navy and said, "Hey, is this Commander Fravor?" And I said, "Yeah." And they said, "Hey, do you know of any documentation on your UFO incident off the Nimitz?" And I said, "Official?" And she said, "Yeah." I said, "No," 'cause I knew the report existed, but to me, it was an unofficial 'cause I didn't know who or where it went. I... And I had a copy of it, but because it wasn't official... Well then, years later, I find out that the guy who actually did the report was part of the AATIP team and I was talking to Lou Elizondo who runs that program, and Lou showed me the documentation of the original. I think it was like 13 people that were part of AATIP and they were FOIA exempt. And I'm like, "Well, that's kind of... Well, hey, I know that guy." (laughs) He's the guy that did the report, which is why it never ever came out-

Joe Rogan 22:47 Mm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 22:47 ... until, uh, George got his hands on it.

Joe Rogan 22:49 How does something Freedom of Information Act exempt?

Cmdr. David Fravor 22:53 Um, obviously DOD has the ability because I... I, I'm a... I'm not a conspiracy theory person at all. I mean, I'll just tell you that. You know, and I think there's reasons that the government doesn't tell the public everything, um, and I don't speak for the government, but I think there's a good reason for that, that not everything needs to go out to the public. But most of it does. And they just... What they do is they put a clause on, "Hey, for this program or whatever we're doing," which would've been an AATIP program. The work that they do and what they find is not... It's not releasable through Freedom of Information Act. There's probably other avenues to get that. You know, and then you go, "Well, what really is Freedom of Information?" 'Cause I got into this on a... I was talking to someone who's a conspiracy theorist, and they said, "Well, so-and-so wrote and they're not getting any information on your event." I said, "So, what are they gonna do? They're gonna call up... You're gonna put in your request for, for Freedom of Information, you go, 'Here's what I want.'" It goes to some poor guy at the Pentagon who's like, "I have no idea what this is," and he searches around, he doesn't find anything, he looks at his bud and now getting off for you. Like, "Hey, Joe, you got anything on the Nimitz incident?" And you go, "Nope." And I go, "Okay. Well, I didn't find anything. I looked. I did my due diligence, but I'm not gonna spend the next six months of my life doing your research project for you."

Joe Rogan 23:55 Right.

Cmdr. David Fravor 23:55 So, and then you get nothing, and then you assume the government's covering up when the government-

Joe Rogan 23:58 Yeah.

Cmdr. David Fravor 23:58 ... really isn't. They just... You know, the guys doing the research doesn't know where it's at or doesn't have access to it.

Joe Rogan 24:02 Makes sense, makes sense. Um, Jamie, we have the video?

Narrator 24:06 We do.

Joe Rogan 24:06 Okay.Here we go. Now t- explain what it, what is, what are we seeing and why are we seeing it in this, uh, this particular shade?

Cmdr. David Fravor 24:12 Okay. So, we'll just kind of go around. And so, if you look at the, uh, how OPRs operate, on the top-left corner. NAR is narrow field of view, which is zoomed in. Uh, IR at the top middle, it means it's in infrared mode. So, instead of seeing color, you're seeing temperature variations.

Joe Rogan 24:29 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 24:30 And these things are extremely sensitive to when, like, tenths of degrees, they will tell you the difference d- due to color. So, it'll go from black to white. So, in this case, white is hot. So, if you look down in the bottom-left corner, it says, "WHT." Um-

Joe Rogan 24:42 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 24:42 ... that's white. It means white is hot. So, the object that you're looking at is hotter than the sky around it. But what you also notice is, there's no plumes. Now, if you're looking at an airplane, when you get closer, you'll actually see the exhaust coming out and there will be a, a really glowing plume. That's important as, as we look at the video. And then most of the stuff on here you really don't need to know. What you can look at is, uh, the bottom-right corner where it says, "19,990" and a B, that's the altitude. And, um, if you look up in the little words where it says, "HDG" and then, "BALT," B- it's autopilot. So, uh, it's on altitude hold. It's just flying, uh, for that. So, you can go ahead and play the video. And so, those two bars next to the white object, that's a, that's a, that's a passive track. So, what he's done is he's commanded the FLIR to track that. So, what the system does is it uses, uh, it's actually tracking, it can track pixels, and it's just basically blocked those hot pixels, those white pixels from the black ones. And then you're gonna see now, pause it real quick, so it, up at the top, see it went to a white screen with a black object? This is a black and white TV mode. And if you look at the top, it says, "TV." So, narrow in TV mode is actually, you can get closer than narrow in IR. It, it, it's literally narrow in IR is about medium in TV mode, so there, you can get closer with the TV mode. So, as you look at it now, in this case, you would actually start to see, um, stuff going on, and even in TV mode, because you get exhaust, you know, the black exhaust that comes out, you'll usually be able to see kind of some of that coming out of the back, and you don't see anything. This thing is just sitting there. And if you look at the, uh, the top where it says, "3 right," that's the pod is looking three degrees right of the nose of the airplane, all right? So, he's just flying along. The bottom numbers, don't worry, those are time. So, it's 41:56. So, go ahead and hit play. And what, what he's doing is he's going, Chad's going through all the different modes because he's like, "Oh, I got it." And he's gonna try and see the best video that he can get. Now, there's rumors that this video is like 10 minutes long. No, what you're looking at is the entire video. Now, notice where it says, "99.9"?

Joe Rogan 26:35 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 26:36 So, hit pause real quick. What that means is the, while he's got the pod, the targeting pod, because that's his primary sensor right now, the radar is still trying to look at this object and trying to range it, and the radar can't get ranging on it. So, the object is doing something to say, "I'm not giving you back," because it's just a doppler radar, just like a police radar is a doppler. It's trying to get a ranging on you and it can't do it. So, when it says, "99.9," it, the radar cannot see this object right now.

Joe Rogan 27:00 Hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 27:00 It's not allowing it to get ranging.

Jeremy Corbell 27:02 And, and I think that's super important, Dave, the way he explained it, to me. Active jamming compared to passive jamming. This is a technology that is actively jamming this system.

Joe Rogan 27:11 Rather than something like stealth aircraft, which is the-

Jeremy Corbell 27:14 Well, the-

Joe Rogan 27:14 ... shape and the texture-

Jeremy Corbell 27:16 He should explain.

Joe Rogan 27:16 ... of the...

Cmdr. David Fravor 27:16 Yeah, it's ... Because everyone thinks stealth is invisible. It's not. It's, it's just, it's a technology to, to basically make it harder for radars to see you. You know, and that's the whole thing, you know, if you look at, uh, you know, airplanes that are nose on, uh, are harder to see than airplanes that are sides. Kind of like, think of a barn door. If you're looking at the whole barn door-

Joe Rogan 27:37 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 27:37 ... it's really easy to see. If I turn the barn door sideways where it's really thin, it's gonna be a lot harder for you to see it.

Joe Rogan 27:40 Got it.

Cmdr. David Fravor 27:41 So, that's it, that's the easiest, most basic way to look at this. So, keep going, you can play again. And you can look, the, the airplane is still sitting at 20,000 feet. It's doing 250 knots. He's gonna go through different modes and try and lock it, and, uh, it's just kind of sitting. Then all of a sudden, a- as the video goes on, I think it's a minute and a half long, see, it's gonna try and reacquire, it recenters the pod. So, it's, it's slowly drifting to the left. The, the, the Hornet is still going the same heading, it's just kind of hanging out and they're just filming this thing. And then when they get close, it's gonna zing off the left-hand side. When you see it on a full ... Because this ... You know, you think digital, you'd be able to get a one-for-one copy, unlike, you know, when you copy your album to a cassette, you know, you lose a little quality. Well, you still do in digital world.

Joe Rogan 28:23 Yeah.

Cmdr. David Fravor 28:23 And there, off it goes to the left. And that's pretty fast to leave that field of view. On the f- when we, we have big monitors that we look at these when they come back, so we're looking at the original tapes. So-

Joe Rogan 28:32 Play the end of that again, please, Jamie. So, when it's taking off, how fast ... When, when it just, it sort of like leaves the field of view and takes off to the left, how fast is that going?

Cmdr. David Fravor 28:43 Uh, I would say pretty fast. It's an estimate. I- if we had ranging, you know, you could obviously do the triangle and go, "Hey," because we know how big the field of view is. But for something to leave the field of view that fast with the pod just staring, it is pretty fast. I mean, it, it just, it's like out of here.

Joe Rogan 28:56 Like nothing that we have?

Cmdr. David Fravor 28:58 No, because we can't ... I don't care what airplane you saw, let's just use an F22 Raptor, that's probably one of the... It's, it's probably the best airplane in the world right now, performance-wise. Um, it can't take off like that e- especially if it's a hover. I mean, you're, you're talking something that's just sitting in space in the wind and then it just all of a sudden accelerates. Airplanes don't work that way.

Joe Rogan 29:18 And it's not leaving any exhaust plume?

Cmdr. David Fravor 29:20 No. Notice there's none. And when you go back to the IR-

Joe Rogan 29:22 Play it again, Jamie, at the end?

Jeremy Corbell 29:24 Even in the IR, you don't see-

Cmdr. David Fravor 29:25 Yeah. So, there's IR zoomed in and there's no... You would see a plume if that was an airplane.

Joe Rogan 29:29 It's creepy how it takes off.

Cmdr. David Fravor 29:31 Yeah.

Jeremy Corbell 29:31 With active jamming, it's intelligently controlled. There's no rotors, there's no plumes, there's no exhaust, there's no tail fin, there's no, uh, tail number. This thing goes from a standstill, takes off. It's a propulsion system we don't have in our inventory and no other nation does. That's, uh, how it's understood by the government.

Joe Rogan 29:50 Now that, that's, w- what, say if the fastest plane on Earth was trying to do that same maneuver, this system would be able to track it?

Cmdr. David Fravor 30:01 Um, yeah. Oh, yeah, it would stay with it until it got to the, the limits of the pod-

Joe Rogan 30:05 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 30:05 ... you know, as far as looking to the left, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 30:06 Right.

Cmdr. David Fravor 30:07 And, you know, the radar would see it.I mean, when you get, when you get close enough, y- you're gonna, you know, you, everything becomes visible because you get burned through with radar and how, how radars actually work. This one is, you know, (laughs) y- you tell me, but i- it, this was, uh, performance beyond. I mean, it's like when we saw it disappear when it flew in front of my nose, and I'm talking something, I'm, I'm within a half mile of it, looking at it-

Joe Rogan 30:33 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 30:33 ... and it gets in front of me and just disappears. So, take, we'll just go to something that everyone knows is fast. Let's just say SR-71 that doing mach 3. You know, the visibility is 50 miles, so even at 35 miles a minute, I'm gonna be able to see this thing turn into a little dot as it goes off into the horizon for a, probably a minute. The thing that we saw disappeared in a second, just gone. And that's from two different angles. Remember, the other airplane's 8,000 feet above me-

Joe Rogan 31:00 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 31:00 ... 'cause we, we get close to it at about 12,000 feet. So, the other airplane's above me, looking down, and when it disappeared, I said, "Do you guys see it?" And they said, "No, it's gone." It just literally was poof.

Joe Rogan 31:11 Now, when you came back and w- w- what do you do with this information? Do you report it? Do you talk to people about it?

Cmdr. David Fravor 31:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:20 Yeah.

Cmdr. David Fravor 31:21 So, the typical process, anytime we fly, everything gets debriefed. So, because there was a two-seat airplane, uh, usually the junior person in the jet goes down, so... But I was the boss, so I wasn't gonna go down there. So, we have a thing called Civic, C-V-I-C, which is the Carrier Intel Center. So, they go down. We always take our tapes 'cause we record stuff when we're fighting. They take it down, and it's really to exercise the system when we're in training, so that when we actually get over to... In this case, we were going over to the Persian Gulf. You know, anything that we do comes in and gets debriefed, and then it all gets sent off. That's how you get the CNN video and all that. So, they go down, and they debrief, and they have to tell, "Hey, we, we chased this object. We don't know what it is," you know, and of course, everyone now is gonna make jokes 'cause we know we're gonna catch shit because that's how the Navy works, you know?

Joe Rogan 32:04 Right. (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 32:05 And I told them, I said, I remember telling the guy in my backseat, I said, "Dude, you know we're gonna catch maximum shit for this."

Joe Rogan 32:12 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 32:12 And he goes, "Yes, sir. I'll show you the comics. I have them on my phone." We do, uh, the air plan comes out, so we know it's gonna come down. So he goes and he... They, they debrief this. Both crews go in, and, and, uh, of course, everyone at intel thinks this is hilarious. So, the flight, th- you know, Chad comes in with his tapes, you know, and when he lands, and th- here's the, the thing. "Oh, VFA-41. Ha-ha. You guys see any UFOs out there?" And he pulls out that tape and drops it on the counter and he goes, "Yeah, it's on here." So, they're like, "Oh, shit." So, they copy it. They play it, and there's a big, uh, it looks like a rack system. They put the 8-mil in, it gets copied to a hard drive, and then they, they archive it. So, you go, "Okay, so they got this video." And then, you know, the ship... If this spreads, you know, if you have a rumor on the ship, 5,000 people are gonna know about it within probably 30 minutes. I mean, it spreads there, it's like a virus. So, the whole ship now knows that we chased this. I guarantee you, the whole Princeton knew this stuff was going on. Um, and it goes all the way up. Th- the admiral knows about it. The captain of the ship knew about it. And, uh, and then all the movies 'cause we have, they play movies for us on the ship, and they run, like, a 12-hour loop. So, of course, the movie selection is Men in Black, Men in Black 2-

Joe Rogan 33:23 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 33:23 ... Signs, Independence Day-

Joe Rogan 33:25 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 33:27 ... um, and, and we know we're gonna be on the airplan comic 'cause there's always a comic. So, you, you do something stupid or like this, then you're gonna be on a comic. I'll show you the comics here in a little bit.

Joe Rogan 33:35 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 33:35 Th- they're pretty funny. Um, but, uh, you know, so that went on for two days, but you know, we're in the middle of workups, and I got a squadron to run, so it's like, you know, there was... After about the first day and a half, it really died down, and then it was the, there was always that closet people that you don't think that are really, like, UFO buffs. And you know-

Joe Rogan 33:52 Mm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 33:52 ... like, we had one of, one o- one of the Marines would always come and he'd sit down. "Hey, hey, Skipper, can I sit with you?" I go, "You wanna talk about the UFO?" He goes, "Yeah, I just, I can't get it out of my mind." And then we would just sit there and talk about it, you know? And to me it was like, "Eh." You know? We're just saying, you know, I, my entire now flying career is defined by five minutes of chasing this white Tic Tac-

Joe Rogan 34:11 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 34:11 ... vice almost 4,000 hours (laughs) , you know, of flying, so...

Joe Rogan 34:14 Now, did you encounter anyone else that had a similar experience?

Cmdr. David Fravor 34:20 I've talked to the guys, couple of guys from the East Coast event, the Gimbal video.

Joe Rogan 34:23 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 34:24 Um, one of them I talk to daily. Um, he's a pretty good friend of mine. Um, totally different now. Keep in mind, ours is 2004, um, the Gimbal video is 2015. The funny part about the Gimbal video and the East Coast stuff that was going on, 'cause that's off the vacate, so, uh, off the coast of the United States, they're, they're called warning areas, and all they are is they're... If you look on a aviation map, they're these big areas that are blocked off by blue, and they say like, "Whiskey 291" or "Whiskey 243." And-

Joe Rogan 34:54 Is the Gimbal video available in the same way that that video's available?

Cmdr. David Fravor 34:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 34:58 Okay.

Narrator 34:58 Yeah. Government-owned.

Cmdr. David Fravor 34:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:59 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 35:00 Find that jam. So, and I was talking to him about it 'cause I, and I actually have a buddy of mine, he just retired. He was the, the, he b- led the fighter wing on the East Coast, and I called him up 'cause we start finding out that these things were so prevalent out off the East Coast of the United States, and there's a couple of them. So, there's the... Yeah, we're gonna talk. What they started seeing originally was these things, and one of them almost hit, the airplane almost hit one of these things, but it looks like a cube inside of a clear beach ball. So, they don't know if it's actually, like, a surrounding or it's, you don't know if it's a force field. And you see kind of in the Gimbal veal... video, it's got, like, an aura around it, where ours didn't. I always laugh, I go, "Ours was a Tic Tac. These are not." That means there's different stuff out there-

Joe Rogan 35:39 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 35:39 ... that we don't know. But they had two airplanes flying, and we fly, when we go out to, to train, uh, we usually, we have a distance, you know? We'll just say we're, you know, a mile apart. As we're flying, so they're flying out, and they're, you know, the airplanes are deployed. We call it combat spread. And, uh, one of the airplanes almost hits one of these ghosts close down, like, 50 feet down the side, and almost hits one of these floating cubes inside of the beach ball. And someone goes, "Oh, like, it's a, it's a balloon." It's not a balloon. I mean, these things are literally sitting still. They're, they're... No effect from the wind. So, if you got 90 knots of wind and they talk about it, these things are just sitting there. So-60 or 70 people had seen it because the radars, the, the newer radar in the Super Hornets is extremely, extremely capable. Okay? And at first when they started seeing stuff they were like, "Ah, it's just like, maybe it's the radar just giving me a false target." Uh, that radar really doesn't give false targets. And then someone did exactly what Chad did, is they threw their targeting flare out there, and all of a sudden when you see a heat signature or there's a return, there's obviously something out where that blip is at.

Joe Rogan 36:43 Wha- what is a targeting flare?

Cmdr. David Fravor 36:44 Uh, that's a, a, we call it the AT flare. It's, it's an advanced targeting flare. It sits on the left side of the airplane and it's, uh-

Joe Rogan 36:50 So you launch it like a flare?

Cmdr. David Fravor 36:51 No, no. It's a, it's a FLIR, forward-looking infrared receiver.

Joe Rogan 36:54 Oh.

Cmdr. David Fravor 36:54 So, it's when you see the bombs blowing up on TV, and it's that looks like a black and white-

Joe Rogan 36:58 Yes.

Cmdr. David Fravor 36:58 ... and you see it flat? That's the targeting pod.

Joe Rogan 37:00 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 37:00 It's got a laser in it. It's got an IR marker in it. It's, it's a very capable system that syncs up to the s- to the, the Hornets so everything kind of marries up.

Joe Rogan 37:08 So, so this is the Gimbal video?

Cmdr. David Fravor 37:09 So this is the Go Fast. No, this is Go Fast.

Narrator 37:10 It's not it?

Cmdr. David Fravor 37:11 No, it's the other one.

Joe Rogan 37:12 Okay.

Jeremy Corbell 37:12 No, it's the one that looks like-

Joe Rogan 37:14 What is this one?

Jeremy Corbell 37:15 ... the ...

Joe Rogan 37:15 What is that one?

Cmdr. David Fravor 37:15 That's called the Go Fast. That looks like a Tic Tac, and that was another one taking off the East Coast, but they grab it and it's-

Jeremy Corbell 37:19 Bookmark that one.

Narrator 37:20 Yeah.

Cmdr. David Fravor 37:20 It's going, it's screaming across the ocean at a very high rate of speed. And there's been some debunkers that say, "Well, it's really not going that fast. It's just the way the airplane is and how the mechanics of the pod are working." When you talk to the crew, 'cause it's actually, uh ... I could ask, uh, my bud. I'm pretty sure it's the same backseater took both of these videos, took the Go Fast video and took the Gimbal video. And my buddy was on the flight with the Gimbal video. But they, these things I ... So I called my bud 'cause I'm like, "Hey, how many people are seeing these things?" And he went, "Ah, like, 60 or 70."

Joe Rogan 37:51 60 or 70?

Cmdr. David Fravor 37:52 60 or 70 people had seen these things on radar. And I said, "Well, what do you do?" And they said, "Well, we put out a NOTAM," which is a Notice to Airmen that just says, "Hey, these things are out there, so just be careful 'cause we don't want you to hit one." (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:05 Whoa.

Cmdr. David Fravor 38:05 And, uh, i- it's kind of like ours. You go ... 'Cause you would ask, you know, who do you tell? Well, everyone knows. Well, what do you do? And I said, "Well, because it was all white and it didn't have any markings on it, and it didn't have any wings, and it didn't have any rotors, and it was just, uh, out-performed anything that we have." I think if I would have painted China or Russia on the side-

Joe Rogan 38:24 Is this the Gimbal video?

Cmdr. David Fravor 38:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 38:26 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 38:26 So, it's the same pod. Uh-

Joe Rogan 38:28 Start from the beginning, Jeremy.

Narrator 38:29 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 38:30 What we're looking at ... And when the crew finds it ... Now, you, what you're not seeing ... You're seeing the targeting. When you hear them start talking, when you listen to the video you'll hear the guy go, "Dude, look, they're all over. Look at the SA page." So we have a situational awareness page, and when- whatever the radar's getting returns on, it'll show up. It's kind of like our God's eye view in the airplane. So the pod can only look at one thing. So he designates that as his primary target. So that's where the pod is there. The radar is still seeing everything else. So what they're actually seeing in this video is what you're ... When you see the, the object that he's tracking ... Um, when I was talking to one of the other pilots, he said there's actually, when you see the radar video, there's like a ... It almost looks like a formation in front of them, like five smaller ones that are moving in front of it. And then they turn, so like a formation, these things turns and starts going the other way, and then it ... And while they're filming the Gimbal video. And that's kind of the comms when you hear, "Dude, holy cow, look. They're all over."

Jeremy Corbell 39:25 This is, uh, unreported new information that, uh, he's actually saying right now. Everybody knows this video. This is the one that they say turns like the Lazar craft, like belly first. However, what he's telling you right now is something that is not public yet. He's telling you that there was a V-formation of other objects that the public has yet to see on-

Cmdr. David Fravor 39:43 You're not going to. It's-

Jeremy Corbell 39:44 You're not going to.

Cmdr. David Fravor 39:45 It's just a radar tape.

Jeremy Corbell 39:46 But-

Cmdr. David Fravor 39:46 They're not gonna ...

Jeremy Corbell 39:47 ... there were more objects surrounding this, is what he's telling you right now, which is fascinating, 'cause the world doesn't know that yet.

Joe Rogan 39:53 Oh.

Jeremy Corbell 39:53 Just so you know. I mean, that's brand new. That's never been reported by New York Times or anybody.

Joe Rogan 39:57 Okay.

Cmdr. David Fravor 39:58 So, you can go ahead and hit play. So the cool thing with this is, the, the ... You know, when he goes into ... So, he's in IR- IR- IR mode right now. You're s- still seeing no plume. He's looking 47. So they're actually turning into it, so it's starting to pull it back towards the nose. See how the number at the top is decreasing?

Narrator 40:16 We're going against the wind.

Cmdr. David Fravor 40:18 And it's against the wind. Now he's in TV mode, and this thing's gonna s- just start to roll. And you can kind of see it's got that aura around it.

Jeremy Corbell 40:24 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 40:25 He said they were saying that the, the ones with the squares inside that look like a beach ball are the same.

Narrator 40:31 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 40:31 And this thing is just hanging out. So, it's on ... The airplane's in a left-hand turn and it's-

Joe Rogan 40:37 So, it turns sideways.

Cmdr. David Fravor 40:37 Now it's right in front. Yeah, it's, it's just rotating.

Joe Rogan 40:40 Now, this is how Lazar described...

Cmdr. David Fravor 40:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Don't put that up.

Narrator 40:45 We're getting it, Pat.

Jeremy Corbell 40:45 All right.

Narrator 40:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:47 Uh, Lazar described that. That these things would lay flat and then when they would travel, they would turn up on their side.

Cmdr. David Fravor 40:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:56 And that's, that's how they maneuvered. So this is very similar.

Jeremy Corbell 41:01 Eerily similar to the propulsion system that Lazar talked about, and that's why this video, we're seeing it very differently now, especially with what we know about Lazar. But the idea is that it would fly belly first in high speed mode. So, if they have ... These are gravity propelled. This is something that's known within the government. They're trying to back engineer it. They're trying to understand it. We know there's a program currently that they said is, is gone. However, it is currently active to study this. These things will turn belly first, the, the saucer type looking ones, and then that's the high speed mode, because they, they focus, a- allegedly, you know, these gravity wave amplifiers. Look, this thing turns mechanically. There ... Again, no typical form of propulsion, as an expert is telling you. This is not a glitch. This is seen by multiple radars, multiple people. Commander Fravor was so close to it. This is something that is not aerodynamic, and it could move in ways and fashions. When he's underplaying it, when we first talked the idea of this thing going, "Bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup," its instantaneous acceleration back and forth, there's no slowing down, no turning. "Like a ping-pong ball," he said to me our first talk. Ping-pong ball in a gl- in a glass. Nothing moves like that with traditional reactionary propulsion. Somebody has technology that we don't have in our inventory-

Cmdr. David Fravor 42:20 ... at all. So, this is counterintuitive, the way it goes from being aerodynamic to being unaerodynamic when it goes sideways and it flies belly forward. That's correct. It's ... Well, it's not, it's, uh, you know, if you talk, 'cause I was just talking to the guy the other day, and he said, "The, the, the irony with this is, is these things would be out there for hours." We don't have, you know, a high-performance airplane does not have hours worth of gas. I mean, you know, Hornets, w- if we don't have aerial refueling, you know, and we're actually out doing a mission and fighting and, and going fast, you know, you're talking hour and a half and you're coming back to land. Uh, some airplanes are even less, you know, based on their size. You know, so like an F-16 doesn't have external fuel tanks. It doesn't have a lot of gas. Um, and the Soviet airplanes are the same way. The MiG-29 does not have a lot of gas. The Su-27, Su-30s have a lot of gas. Because of weight, because of- Its weight, performance, uh, size of the airplane. ... capacity. Yeah. Um, so, you know, even, even our intercontinental bombers, like B-2, they still take off and they aerial refuel, they keep topped off so they can get to range. That's how we extend things. Um, you got something like this that's coming down, you know, just think of the physics. So just, the, uh, uh, I'll use my incident 'cause that's the one I really know the best, is you've got an object coming from above 80,000 feet. So, I'll just tell you that 80,000, it's somewhere around 70, 80,000 feet is where you can actually start to see the curvature of the earth. You know, so that's considered space. So, they're coming from above that. They're coming straight down, they stop at around 20,000 feet, they hang out for three hours, and then they go straight back up. So, and I know you had Elon on the show, so SpaceX is really excited because they can launch a rocket and then they can have the booster come back to earth and actually land on a pad. Very impressive engineering feat. Next to this technology, that's like a Model T next to a Porsche. (laughs) I mean, it's like, "Wow, really? That's it?" You know, and you got something that can just at will move around. Now take it to the next level, and I know this is, there's a lot of talk about this, so Dave is gonna go into speculation mode. But when you take a shape like that, so just take the Tic Tac shape, which is shaped like a submarine, if you're, if you're using a propulsion that's nonreactive where you're just manipulating the medium that you're in, air, whatever, you can go into the water. So, when you s- you hear the, all the reports of, "Hey, we've seen these things since, you know, World War II, that would come out of the water and fly," if you have a technology like this, as long as the object is sealed where you're not gonna get water inside of it, there's nothing that says you can't do that. Because all you're doing is, you're not, you know, where a jet engine sucks in air and blows it out the back or a propeller actually pushes the water, it's a force. Now you've got something that's actually manipulating the gravity field and it's just moving through a void. Then it doesn't ... Then air, you could literally, in theory, fly, go into the ocean, cruise around, pop back up, fly around, go to space. I- i- you're, uh, nothing, y- y- you remove the barriers of the normal propulsion that we have today. There's been many instances of sightings off the coast of California of things that plunge into the water or, or escape from the water and take off into space. So- Yeah. There, i- it, with the field propulsion system as Commander Fravor's describing, as Lazar described, it doesn't matter the medium of space, air or water, there's no resistance, no splash. I mean, this goes back to, you know, when Christopher Columbus reported a UFO sighting. He did? Oh, yeah. Th- this idea, th- so this has been around. Anyway, this idea, boom, that you can go through these different mediums, it- Hold, pause for a second. Christopher Columbus had a UFO sighting? Yeah. It's, it's a written account, so it's like- Find that. ... no video. Jim is on. (laughs) It's not gonna be in the video. No video. There's no video. This is bullshit then. I'm shocked. (laughs) That's bullshit then. Well, see that's what's so cool. So, C- Commander Fravor's encounter, it's not the most documented, it's not the most dramatic. However, it has had the most impact out of any sighting because of his credibility and the mere fact that the The New York Times picked it up with video footage, radar evidence, and somebody who is as credible as Commander Fravor. It has changed the dynamic of the way people, the government responds, new Navy protocols, because of Commander Fravor coming forward. Um, t- there are, there are s- closed door congressional and senate briefings. He's been part of them. He's admitted that before. There's a new study about UFOs because of this encounter. It's so much evidence, has so much power to it compared to other ones. So, Christopher Columbus, great, c- cool story, somebody wrote it down. Who knows, who knows if he even wrote it down? We have highly documented cases. This one has changed our culture. And that's what's so cool. People are talking about it differently. So, here's, here, this is a good story. This, this is true. So, I was sitting at home and usually when people try and find me, they get my wife's cellphone 'cause it's the first one on the cellphone bill, and it's all in my name. So, I get, I see this call from California and I'm like ... and normally, I don't answer them. And it's her phone, I'm like, "Who's calling my wife?" (laughs) 'Cause that is me. So I answer it and this lady says, "Hey, is Commander Fravor there?" And I go, "Who's calling?" And she goes, "Well, I, I'd like to talk to Commander Fravor." I go, "Who's calling?" And she says, "Hi, I'm a 79-year-old woman and I would just like to tell him my story." I go, "You're talking to him." And she goes, "I've never in my life told anyone this." She goes, "My, I grew up, my dad was in the Navy." She goes, "I was," he was stationed in Rhode Island at first when she was a child. She said we were walking, her and her mom were walking on the beach and they saw these weird lights. So, that kind of got her into that, "Oh, UFOs." She goes, few years later, they had moved to San Francisco. So I imagine Treasure Island because at her age, that would have been, you know, probably in the '50s. Her dad was, she goes her dad was working as a Navy liaison to the agency. And, uh, he came home one day and he had a telegram in his hand. And she goes, "For some reason, he let me read it." She's telling me this story. And I said, "Well, what did it say?" She says it was, it basically said, "Hey, unidentified objects going in and out of the water," and it had a latitude and longitude in it. And he looked at her, she goes, "And I'm a child and I always remember this." She says, "He looked at me and said, 'We get these all the time and it's always in the same area.'"... and I go, of course, I go, "Well, you got the telegram?" She goes, "Of course not. He had to take it back to work." I said, "You don't happen to remember that latitude and longitude." (laughs) She said no, she goes, "But you seem to be so credible and believable," she goes, "I wanted to tell someone the story that I've never told anyone in my life." So, that's what you're starting to see, is people that, you know, very credible. They're n- you know, they're not, they're not crazy. They're not making stuff up, but they're coming out and going, "Hey, I've, I've had these experiences." And I've got a lot of that from over the last two years, where people just find my email and send me stuff saying, "Hey, this happened to me," or, "I saw this." Um, and, and there's, some things are explainable, 'cause I, I got asked to tell (laughs) this, so, 'cause we're kinda ... I have a sick sense of humor at times. (laughs) So, like I said, I had all these quals. So, we used to fly, they don't do it right now because it's a little bit dangerous, but we used to fly night vision goggles low altitude at, in Hornets. All right? So, when you put on night vision goggles, they amplify light, like, a lot. So, you can see a campfire, like, 50 miles away. So, what we used to do at the good spots were down in, like, El Centro, California. There's a range that, uh, there's some bombing ranges, but people go camping in the Superstition Mountains, which is, uh, kind of north and west of Imperial by, uh, uh, I forget what it is, the springs. It's real pretty in the desert. It'll come to me in a minute. So, we would go out at night, flying around on goggles, and you'd see a campfire, and you'd go, "Oh, UFO time." And then you get the airplane going about 600 knots, and then you pull the power back to idle so you can't hear it, and you get zinging towards th- the fire. (laughs) Well, you turn, the lights are all down 'cause we're in a restricted area, so we can do that, and there's lights on it that you can only see if you're on night vision goggles. So, the other airplanes can see us, but no one else can see us. Then you go zinging at it, and then right when you get to the campfire, you pull the airplane into the vertical, you stroke the afterburners, you let them light off, you count to three, you pull them off, and then you just go away. Instant UFO reporting.

Jeremy Corbell 50:20 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:21 I'm sitting out in the desert, it's all quiet, then all of a sudden, there's a lure, there's lights in the sky, and they go away and it's gone.

Jeremy Corbell 50:27 The campfire's out.

Joe Rogan 50:28 So, you would, you would do that just to fuck with campers?

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:30 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:31 How rude. (laughs)

Jeremy Corbell 50:32 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:32 Yes. Yes, I did.

Joe Rogan 50:34 (laughs)

Jeremy Corbell 50:34 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:34 And I'm not the only one that did it, but-

Joe Rogan 50:36 Oh.

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:36 ... like I said, we have a sick sense of humor.

Joe Rogan 50:38 Yes.

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:38 Um-

Joe Rogan 50:38 I'm sure.

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:39 So, some things are explainable, 'cause I guarantee there were phone calls made on some of the stuff that we did.

Joe Rogan 50:43 And I guarantee you're not the only one who's ever done that.

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:46 Oh, I know I'm not. (laughs)

Jeremy Corbell 50:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:48 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:48 Yeah, I'm not that creative, but-

Joe Rogan 50:50 (sighs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:50 ... it's just, you know. Y- you think about it, and you go, because people go, "I s- I saw this," or, "I saw that," 'cause I've got stuff like that, and I go, "Yeah, I used to create stuff like that-"

Joe Rogan 50:57 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 50:57 "... just not tell."

Joe Rogan 50:57 Do you, are you ... Jeremy, I'm sure you're aware of this. The footage from the, uh, the Mexican Air Force?

Jeremy Corbell 51:02 Yeah, yeah, I'm very aware of that.

Joe Rogan 51:03 What do you think about that?

Jeremy Corbell 51:05 Well, again, it's, it's IR footage, which is really interesting. They actually got the cameras for drug runners, right? So, you, uh, you can see in the infrared, so it's beyond the observable, you know, eye. Uh, I, myself, have not, uh, detailed looked at the footage. However, FLIR experts and people that work with the NSA have looked at it for me, and they- these are not lights in the distance. These are craft, very similar to what Commander Fravor talks about without plumes, without heat signatures, w- you know, nontraditional field propulsion systems. We don't have that. And that-

Joe Rogan 51:37 I thought they tried to, uh ... Is this it right here? Is this the Mexican Air Force footage?

Jeremy Corbell 51:41 Yeah.

Cmdr. David Fravor 51:42 Yeah, f-

Jeremy Corbell 51:42 So-

Joe Rogan 51:42 See-

Jeremy Corbell 51:42 ... they tried to say these were lights on, on, like, an oil rig out in the water. That's been debunked, and-

Joe Rogan 51:47 Yeah, they tried to say it was a fire at an oil rig, right?

Cmdr. David Fravor 51:49 Well-

Jeremy Corbell 51:49 It's ... No.

Cmdr. David Fravor 51:50 ... the, the 2004-

Jeremy Corbell 51:51 Talk to the pilots.

Cmdr. David Fravor 51:51 ... Comcast Video of the Year was the Mexican Air Force tracking, like, six. So, literally-

Jeremy Corbell 51:55 Yeah.

Cmdr. David Fravor 51:55 ... right after our incident, I come, you know, we come back and I think we were getting ready to go to Fallon. And I'm, I'm, I had Comcast, and the, the homepage comes up and there's this video. And I go, "Holy cow, that looks like what we chased."

Joe Rogan 52:06 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 52:06 And it was, like, six of these things and they were tracking them in the same area, too. Right off the coast of Ensenada.

Jeremy Corbell 52:10 And it, it's not as rare. There, there's now admitted an increased frequency. The, uh, a Pentagon spokeswoman finally went off script. I was tracking the scripts for the last two years of what Pentagon spokespeople say about Commander Fravor's experience. Someone went off script last week in the New York Times, and she admitted there's an increased frequency of near misses because of these AAVs, anomalous aerospace vehicles. So, it, it's pretty astounding. We're getting all these kind of revelatory moments in these little seeds that, these are not ours. We don't have this. Even Elon doesn't have this. I mean, this is a propulsion system unlike anything we have. It's amazing. It's gravity propelled.

Joe Rogan 52:48 Now, that gimbal footage?

Jeremy Corbell 52:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:50 When it said that there's a fleet of them?

Cmdr. David Fravor 52:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:53 How far away are those guys, where you're seeing ... you don't see the individual objects? You only see a singular spot.

Cmdr. David Fravor 52:59 Um, well, the pod is, you know, when you get pretty narrow, it'd be like, you know, if I put three people around you, I can look at you and not see the other people.

Joe Rogan 53:06 Right.

Cmdr. David Fravor 53:06 So, that's what the pod is doing. But the radar is seeing everything, 'cause it's a, uh, it has an AESA radar on it, which is an active electronically scanned array. So, instead of, like, the radars we had, which did the mechanical, you know, doing this, like old school, this thing is just a panel that sits in the front of the airplane. And through beam sharing, or beam shaping, it can move and it can look all over. So, we used to have what was called track while scan, so we would be able to track a target while we're still scanning. This thing has scan while ... it, it scans while tracked. So, it, it literally, if it sees you, if the radar sees you, it has basically a weapons-quality solution. And it can do that on multiple targets. It's, that's how ... that's the same way the, the spy radar, the AEGIS system works on the cruisers. It can track multiple targets and have weapons quality on all these different targets while it's still scanning a volume.

Joe Rogan 53:51 So, in that image, you're seeing one individual object, but there's other objects?

Cmdr. David Fravor 53:55 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:55 Th-

Cmdr. David Fravor 53:55 The radar is seeing the object that the pod is looking at, where they're talking, and when you hear the video, you hear the, the pilot say, "Dude, look at the SA page. There's, there's a whole fleet of them." So, what they're seeing is the, the, the pod is looking at the main ... that's the bigger object that the gimbal, the thing that's rotatin- rotating on the screen. And there's five smaller things in front, so this thing is just sitting there. And then they kinda, he said they turn around on the s- on the radar, and start going the other way while the pod's looking at this guy just kinda rotating.

Joe Rogan 54:22 So, like, a mothership and smaller aircraft-

Cmdr. David Fravor 54:25 Could be.

Joe Rogan 54:25 ... something along those lines. Is there a video of those smaller aircrafts-

Cmdr. David Fravor 54:28 No.

Joe Rogan 54:28 ... or just the video of the one large one?

Cmdr. David Fravor 54:30 No. The only thing they have is the, the, the targeting pod. Uh, I would highly doubt, even if they had the video, that they're gonna release the radar video because of the classification levels.

Jeremy Corbell 54:38 A- are you able to tell, um, the story you told me about what was underwater with your, your other buddy-

Joe Rogan 54:45 (laughs)

Jeremy Corbell 54:45 ... because... Is that okay?

Cmdr. David Fravor 54:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's amaze- uh, you know, people come out of the woodwork when they figure out you've had this-

Joe Rogan 54:52 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 54:52 ... 'cause now they're, they don't feel alone. (smacks lips) So, I was working. I did, I worked, I s- I still do it, but I was doing oil and gas at the time, uh, on a, on a contract and one of the guys, this story came out, and, uh, he was a Navy helicopter pilot. And he comes and he g- he comes in and he goes, "Do, hey, can I talk to you, man?" I go, "What about?" He goes, "Dude, I got, I got to talk to you." And I said, "What do you want to talk to me about?" He says, "Dude, you know your UFO?" He said, "Yeah." He goes, "I had a similar experience." I said, "What's that?" He said... Uh, he was flying, uh, CH-53s, which is a big lift, heavy lift that the Marine Corps uses and the Navy uses it for certain things. And when they go off of... For the East Coast, they do a lot of shooting off of, at the time, it was off of Puerto Rico. We had Roosevelt Roads that they ended up closing. Um, but he was flying out of there and, you know, you got super clear Caribbean water and they have these things, they're called BQMs, they fly around and then when they're all done, 'cause they'll fly towards the ships and the ship can... (microphone thumps) Oh, sorry about that. They can track with the radar, and then they also do when the, like, the ships or submarine shoot torpedoes, they're, they're called telemetry rounds. So, they have, they gather all the data on what the torpedo or, is doing underwater and then they blow ballast and this thing will come to the surface and float, and then they go pick them up and then they can extract all the data out of them. So, they do it for both. So, he said the first time they're out and they're gonna pick up this BQM, and those things, when they're flying, they're done, a parachute comes out and they got to go, they hook it up, the helo drops the swimmer in the water. He goes and hooks this whole thing up and then they hoist the whole thing up and fly back and then they extract the data. So, he says he's sitting in the front, you know, in helicopters there's, you know, uh, CH-53, you can actually see down by your feet, you know, just like typical, like, you go to Hawaiian rides so you, 'cause you can see when you're touching down. So, you got really good visibility out of those things and you can stick your head out the window too because you're just kind of hanging out. He says he's going on there and they're getting this thing hooked up and as he's looking down, you know, because they're, I don't know what, 50 feet above the water, he sees kind of this dark mass coming up from the depths. And they started to hoist the, the diver up and he's got, they've got the BQM and as they hoist it up, he says, and he's looking at this thing going, "What the hell is that?" And then it just goes back down underwater. It just, like, uh, once they pull the kid and the, the BQM out of the water, this object descends back into the depths. So, he thinks, "Well, that was pretty weird." So, he goes out, he says, n- not too long later, you know, a few months later, he's out and he's picking up a torpedo. So, he says, they got the, they hook the diver up on the winch and they're lowering him in and as he's looking down, he sees this big, massive... He goes, "It's not a submarine." He's seen submarines before. Once you see a submarine, you, you can't confuse it with something else. This big object, you know, kind of circular, he says, "It's coming up from the depths." And he starts screaming to, through the intercom system to tell them to pull the diver up. And the diver's like few feet from the water. So, they reverse the winch and the diver's thinking, "What the hell is going on?" And then he's getting pulled up and all of a sudden, uh, he said the torpedo just got sucked down underwater and the object just descended back down into the depths, and they never recovered the, the torpedo.

Joe Rogan 57:40 Jesus.

Cmdr. David Fravor 57:41 And this happened in the late 90s. Late, mid to late 90s, I think it is. I could probably get in touch with him and ask him. When he told me this story and I'm like, "How-"

Jeremy Corbell 57:49 How do you report that? (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 57:51 You come in and go, "Well, where'd the torpedo go?" Uh, just got sucked down. It just went down, you know, and then you get the people that attribute it as, "Ah, something happened when it blew ballast and it just took on water and sank." And he's like, "It didn't sink." He goes, "It literally looked like it got sucked down." (smacks lips) The only reason they didn't... They talked to him. When they did the New York Times stuff they talked to him, but because the incident was from the 90s, they didn't wanna... They wanted something, you know, newer.

Joe Rogan 58:15 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 58:15 Um, so they did not include it, but I know they talked to him about it.

Joe Rogan 58:18 Now, what was the other footage that we were looking at? There was the first footage that Jamie pulled up that wasn't the gimbal footage.

Cmdr. David Fravor 58:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:24 That was-

Cmdr. David Fravor 58:24 Oh, the go fast.

Jeremy Corbell 58:24 Go fast.

Joe Rogan 58:24 The go fast. What is that?

Cmdr. David Fravor 58:26 That's a, uh, it actually looks more like a Tic Tac, but it's... They saw it, uh, going across the water and they're, they're, they're just grabbing a lock. So, they're, they're seeing this with their eyes and he gets the FLIR to lock on it, and that's when you hear the kid go, "Oh, I got it," 'cause he gets the auto track, and it's just something screaming across the surface of the water. So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:43 And this is in the same area?

Cmdr. David Fravor 58:44 This is East Coast, yeah. This is the same timeframe as the gimbal video.

Jeremy Corbell 58:48 So, the idea that these are birds or the idea that this is a radar glitch, or somebody said pilot error, like, on a clear blue day, Commander Fravor has nerves. I mean, that kind of thing that people have said on your show to you, that, you know, this, th- these are explanations that make sense.

Joe Rogan 59:02 Who said that?

Jeremy Corbell 59:03 Um, I didn't wanna say their names.

Joe Rogan 59:06 Oh, Mick West?

Jeremy Corbell 59:06 Yeah, sure. In-

Joe Rogan 59:07 Mick, Mick believes everything. Like, every single thing that's ever happened has a rational explanation for it.

Jeremy Corbell 59:13 Yeah, it's... So, so, you know, the probability that, you know, all the radars went off at the wrong time, Commander Fravor, you know, had nerves, that all the other pilots up there with him, that, you know, this thing shot off like a, like a can, like a gun instantly, like, that that was somehow c- perfectly coordinated, that's a conspiracy, th- that's a fabrication. Probably, Occam's razor is the events happened exactly like we're being told.

Cmdr. David Fravor 59:36 Yeah, for us it was... You know, and I'll go back to the beginning of the story of, you know, the other pilot who was brand new. Uh, she had been in the squadron for four months, five months, so she's pretty junior. She was still working on her initial qual on the airplane. And, uh, you know, so she gets the, you know, we get the real world vector and it's like, "Okay, real world vector. Cool, I'm gonna get to do something real exciting." Then you see the, uh, the water and you think, "Oh, something's sinking," 'cause it's kind of that shape of an airplane, you know, that cross type. So, now it's, oh, crap, now it's search and rescue. We got to go down and see, you know, 'cause there's people, you know, and we are sympathetic. And to the Tic Tac, and as soon it's a Tic Tac, it's like, you know, "Holy shit, what is that?" You know, and when you get... Uh, you know, some people get very emotional when you talk about it, um, because for me, it was like, "Eh, you know, I, you know..." For her, when you talk to her, uh-... she has a disdain for some of the leadership that didn't tell us that these things were out there. You know, that here now we're getting vectored because we were the first time th- the manned airplanes had been airborne when one of these things showed up. That no one even gave us a brief that, "Hey, we're seeing these objects out here for the last two weeks. They're just kinda sh- ... You might wanna know they're out there." And they never told us. No one knew these things existed besides the radar operators, and the radar operators didn't know what they were. They just knew they were seeing blips, you know? So, and there's a lotta stuff that, you know, that it flew around, and it came around me, and it didn't do any of that stuff. It's (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:01:06 ... the story that I gave you is just relatively benign, um, but it was, you know, it's, it's an interesting experience, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:01:13 So, these incidents that they reported were taking place before you saw your, that Tic Tac encounter-

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:01:20 Yeah, they-

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 ... they were taking place over a period of how many weeks?

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:01:23 Two weeks.

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 Two weeks.

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:01:23 We, we went out at the beginning of the month for th- this two-week At Sea period. Um, we pulled in for Thanksgiving, but other than that, we were out till, I think December 21st is when we pulled the ship back in, uh, besides pulling in for the three days of Thanksgiving. So yeah, for the two weeks prior, so this was on the 14th, and we went out at the beginning of the month, so about two weeks they had been watching these things come down, go up, come down, go up, but it was always when we were not flying, which is really probably, like, the midnight timeframe until early in the morning the next, you know, till noon the next day, and then we just happened to go. And if you think about it, you know (laughs) , I laugh, y- you know, if, if there was some little green man flying around in that Tic Tac, he probably got back to the mothership and got yelled at for being seen (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 (laughs)

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:02:03 Right? You know, like, "Oh, my God, you let him see you." Um, so...

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 So, uh, have you communicated with anybody that has any thoughts on what, what these things are doing, or th- th- w- whether or not there's any consistency to the size of them, or whether or not they, they think they're coming out of a larger object, or anything along these lines?

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:02:26 No. Um, you know, you can ask, well, 'cause I was asked, you know, "What do you think they were doing," you know? And I said, c- well, you can look, "Well, they were observing," you know, 'cause they're coming down and watching. Number two is, they were communicating, 'cause I think, you know, in my heart, I think there was something under the water. I don't, you know, what it was doing there, but when we went back, it was gone.

Joe Rogan 1:02:45 S- this is because of w- w- when you saw the X, the cross-looking-

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:02:49 Yep.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 ... thing. Explain that again. So, uh, the, the disturbance seemed to be-

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:02:53 So, think-

Joe Rogan 1:02:53 ... in the shape of a cross?

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:02:54 Yeah, like, uh, I, I describe it as, it's about the size of a 737. So just think, if you submerge the 737, pointing it to the east underwater-

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:03:02 ... by, like, you know, 10, 15 feet, so as these waves are coming across, when they, you know, they hit that object, they're gonna break on top-

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 Mm-hmm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:03:09 ... just like you would with a submerged, like, a seamount. So, and it's, it's, they're breaking, and that's where the Tic Tac was at. That's the only reason we saw the Tic Tac. That's what drew our eyes-

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 Hm.

Cmdr. David Fravor 1:03:17 ... down there, is we see this white water when it's a perfectly clear day with no whitecaps, and you go, "Whoa, what's that?" And then you see the Tic Tac, and then