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Joe Rogan Experience #1361 - Cmdr. David Fravor & Jeremy Corbell

Commander David Fravor is a retired US Navy pilot, who has a close encounter in 2004 with the so-called Tic Tac UFO, and Jeremy Corbell is a contemporary artist and documentary filmmaker.

Joe RoganhostJeremy CorbellguestCmdr. David Fravorguest
Oct 5, 20191h 54mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 15:00

    And here we go.…

    1. JR

      And here we go. Uh, first of all, gentlemen, thanks for being here. Jeremy, thanks for coming back again.

    2. JC

      Thanks, Joe.

    3. JR

      And, uh, thanks to you, sir. It's very excited to be here, very exciting for me to be here to be able to talk to you about your story.

    4. CF

      Uh, thank you. I'm glad to be here.

    5. JR

      Uh, David, tell everybody who you are, and tell everybody your background, please.

    6. CF

      Okay. My name is David Fravor. Uh, I served 24 years in the military, enlisted Marine for a couple years. They sent me to the Naval Academy. And I flew for 18 years for the Navy. Um, had, literally flew A-6s, Hornets, and then Super Hornets. Had every qualification you could get in the airplane, everything, even the stuff they're not doing anymore, so I had NVG high and low, went to Top Gun. And at the time of the incident that we're gonna talk about, I was a commanding officer of VF-A-41, the Black Aces.

    7. JR

      I'm, uh, I've gone through a, a journey with this whole UFO stuff, from being a full-on true believer, to being incredibly skeptical, to trying to be open-minded, to, uh, uh, being more of a believer now than I think I've ever been before. And one of the things that I've always said is, the people that I believe, the, th- there's a lot of loony people out there, but the people that I put my trust in are high-level military people, like yourself. So, when I hear someone like you, who has a story that defies logic or defies conventional understanding of how aircrafts work, that's when, that's when I sit back and I go, "Okay, this, this is a different thing." Because, you, you know, there's always people that are telling you they're psychic, or they can s- you know, they sense things, or they're in communication with Bigfoot. There's always loony people out there. But when someone is in the military, someone who's trained to fly these incred- I mean, how, how expensive are those jets?

    8. CF

      Uh, when we had them, they were about $70 million apiece.

    9. JR

      Yeah, they don't give those to morons.

    10. CF

      Mm, typically not.

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. CF

      (laughs) Some people in my family would probably argue that point.

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. CF

      But, uh, hey, better lucky than good.

    15. JR

      It just seems to me that this is, uh, for rational people, uh, that want to look at this whole UFO phenomenon objectively, you're the type of person that I wanna talk to. So, I was very excited to have you in here. So, what year was your incident? And you, you have a very, very famous incident that's corrob- corroborated by actual evidence, which is one of the rarer ones. What year was it, and where did it take place?

    16. CF

      So, it was 2004, November 14th, off the, it's really, if you draw San Diego to Ensenada, Mexico, we're about 60 miles off the coast in between the two. We're doing workups, so when we get ready to deploy, this was for the 2005 deployment. Uh, we were going at sea for November and December of 2004. So, we had been out, I had just taken over the squadron mid-October, so I'd been the CO for a month. So, we go out, uh, and we're putting the battle group pieces together, so it's not just the, the air wing, but we were, you know, we're, uh, we're on the carrier. We've got the cruiser. We've got all the support ships out there. And we're gonna integrate all the defenses and train as one unit. So, the exercise that we're gonna do is an air defense exercise, where there's good guys, bad guys. They're all from internal from the air wing. So, the bad guys today are gonna be the Marines, uh, VMFA-232, the Red Devils. So, they're gonna launch and they're gonna go about 100 miles south of the ship, and we're the good guys. And it's, we call it a 2v2, so it's two of us against two of them. And we're gonna work with the USS Princeton, which is gonna be the controller, and they're gonna control the blue forces. And then the red guys are gonna give us a presentation that, you know, they're gonna try and intercept so we can stop them from getting up towards the carrier. So, that's kind of the training set that we're all good. So, the Marines take off first, and they start heading to the south. Now, we have no idea that for two weeks, this, the two weeks we've been at sea, they've been tracking these things coming out of the sky. And when I talked to the Princeton controller, he's like, "Up to about a dozen of them." They would come down from above 80,000 feet. They'd drop down to about 20,000 feet, they'd hang out, and then they'd go straight back up after about three or four hours.

    17. JR

      Now, when you say, "They've been tracking them," who specifically?

    18. CF

      This is the USS, the Princeton was tracking them. They saw them on the Nimitz radar, and the E-2 could see them. Um, so, 'cause they're out there, you know, that radar is on all the time. And, uh, the SPY-1 system on an Aegis cruiser is, you know, the state-of-the-art. It's probably the most, one of the most sophisticated systems in the world.

    19. JR

      So, typically, when something like this happens and there is some unexplained phenomenon, what do they do?

    20. CF

      Uh, in this case, they, you know, t- if it was a, if we were in a threat environment, they would tell us. But we were off the coast of San Diego, it's, it doesn't come to the air wing. So, we have no idea that these things are out there at all.

    21. JR

      So, they observe these things, and they never bother telling any of you guys?

    22. CF

      That's correct.

    23. JR

      So, they just knew that these things had been visiting this area?

    24. CF

      Yes.

    25. JR

      But they just allowed this training exercise to take place anyway?

    26. CF

      Yeah, th- m- talking to them, the previous, for the two weeks they would show up, but it was when we weren't flying.

    27. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    28. CF

      So, the typical carrier schedule is, you know, for us it was about noon to midnight. It's a 12-hour day. There's reasons for that. You can go a lot longer than can... but for training, we just do the 12-hour day thing. And it's cyclic up, so you got guys taking off and landing periodically. So, we were on one of the first goes. You know, it's, you know, noon, 1:00, somewhere around there, and we take off. The Marines take off first. And my buddy, Cheeks, who was the CO of the Marine squadron, was the one, he was leading the red air. They had, when he launched off the carrier, first they called him up and said, "Hey, what do you got on board?" Well, the small, the original legacy F-18s don't have as much gas as the Super Hornets. The Super Hornet's about 30% bigger. So, they start talking to him about fuel, and based on how long we're gonna be airborne and everything else, they go, "Hey, why don't you just go ahead and proceed to your, your cap point," uh, 'cause we had just taken off. And that's when the controller had come up and said, "Hey," yeah, I forget, our call sign was probably, like, Dealer, is usually what we went. So, they'd be like, "Dealer 11, uh, this is, uh, Princeton control. What do you got on," you know, say your load out. (laughs) And I kind of chuckled, and he said, I said, "Well, I've got a CATM-9," which is, uh, it's, uh, basically just a blue metal tube with a seeker head for an AIM-9 IR missile. It's a training. It doesn't come off the airplane. You can beat it with a sledgehammer. That's the only way you're gonna get it off, or you gotta unlock the lugs with a key.So, I'm like, kind of chuckling. He goes, "Well, hey, we're gonna cancel the training." So we're like, "Okay." He says, "We got real-world vector, and they're gonna send us out to the west." So, picture if it's a, you know, if you've got a clock, the Nimitz is in the middle. Uh, we're a little bit, uh, south of that, about 40 miles south, and then the Marines are about 100 miles south of the ship. About 60 miles between the two of us. So, as th- this is all happening, my wingman is joining up. All right, and these are F-18Fs, so there's two people in each jet. So, it's me and my WSO, which is weapon systems operator, and I've got the other pilot and the weapon systems operator in the other jet. So, they tell us all this, "Hey, we're gonna have real-world vector," and they send us out 270 about 60 miles away from where we're going. So, now we're going out even further out to sea. We have no idea what we're intercepting, and this is when the- the controller starts talking to us. He says, "Hey, sir, we've seen these objects. They've been, for two weeks, they've been coming down." And he's giving us the whole story. He says, "We need you to go investigate. We wanna know what these are." So-

    29. JR

      But they're asking you to investigate in a jet that's unarmed.

    30. CF

      That's correct.

  2. 15:00 – 30:00

    We do, we can…

    1. CF

      tell, it gets signals back that it's being jammed. So ... and technically jamming is an act of war. It starts jamming the radar. Goes into a jam extrapolate, a bunch of stuff happens on the scope. Well, he's smart enough to castle to his targeting pod and he takes a passive track, and that's the video that you see of the Tic Tac, where it's just sitting in the middle of the screen real quiet. Um, so he does that, and he, and he goes through ... if you watch the video, if we had it I'd go through it with you, but, uh, they go through all the different modes. So, he goes, it's an IR and EO. EO is TV. It's a black and white TV camera.

    2. JR

      We do, we can get the video, right, online?

    3. CF

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, oh, yeah.

    4. JR

      Yeah, let's, let's get the video, Jamie. Where would you ... uh, can't show it to anybody.

    5. JC

      Not on here, no.

    6. JR

      We can't, we can't show it on YouTube, but you can see it and people will be able to go to it. You know what we'll do? Go to the video and we'll tell people when we're starting, and we'll tell people what the title of the video that you get to is, and they can sync it up themselves if they're watching it.

    7. JC

      It's publicly owned. Sorry.

    8. JR

      Yeah.

    9. JC

      It's, it's publicly owned. It's, you know, American government released it.

    10. JR

      Right.

    11. JC

      So, it is actually something in the public domain.

    12. JR

      So, you think we could play it on YouTube and not get pulled?

    13. JC

      I-

    14. CF

      Yeah.

    15. JC

      100%.

    16. JR

      You think so, Jamie?

    17. CF

      I-

    18. JC

      It's a government-

    19. NA

      Those things, I would say yes, we should be able to, but sometimes those things get messy. So, I just-

    20. JR

      Let's take a chance.

    21. NA

      ... I can't. Okay, all right, all right, all right.

    22. JR

      Let's take a chance with this one.

    23. NA

      All right.

    24. CF

      I know if you go ... if, if you're on a New York Times article, there's a link to it.

    25. JC

      It's, uh, Pentagon released-

    26. JR

      This, YouTube is crazy with copyright stuff, and we, we've always been, like, two steps away from getting pulled off of YouTube completely. It's a real disaster. It's a re- ... I, I understand from their perspective, there's a, a lot of legal issues they have to deal with, but-

    27. JC

      I have it on a private server. I could s- maybe send Jamie.

    28. JR

      The issue I'd believe though is the actual copyright of the video itself.

    29. CF

      Oh, that's just it. It's a Pentagon-

    30. JC

      Pentagon released public domain.

  3. 30:00 – 45:00

    Um, yeah. Oh, yeah,…

    1. JR

      it?

    2. CF

      Um, yeah. Oh, yeah, it would stay with it until it got to the, the limits of the pod-

    3. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CF

      ... you know, as far as looking to the left, but, uh-

    5. JR

      Right.

    6. CF

      And, you know, the radar would see it.I mean, when you get, when you get close enough, y- you're gonna, you know, you, everything becomes visible because you get burned through with radar and how, how radars actually work. This one is, you know, (laughs) y- you tell me, but i- it, this was, uh, performance beyond. I mean, it's like when we saw it disappear when it flew in front of my nose, and I'm talking something, I'm, I'm within a half mile of it, looking at it-

    7. JR

      Okay.

    8. CF

      ... and it gets in front of me and just disappears. So, take, we'll just go to something that everyone knows is fast. Let's just say SR-71 that doing mach 3. You know, the visibility is 50 miles, so even at 35 miles a minute, I'm gonna be able to see this thing turn into a little dot as it goes off into the horizon for a, probably a minute. The thing that we saw disappeared in a second, just gone. And that's from two different angles. Remember, the other airplane's 8,000 feet above me-

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CF

      ... 'cause we, we get close to it at about 12,000 feet. So, the other airplane's above me, looking down, and when it disappeared, I said, "Do you guys see it?" And they said, "No, it's gone." It just literally was poof.

    11. JR

      Now, when you came back and w- w- what do you do with this information? Do you report it? Do you talk to people about it?

    12. CF

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JR

      Yeah.

    14. CF

      So, the typical process, anytime we fly, everything gets debriefed. So, because there was a two-seat airplane, uh, usually the junior person in the jet goes down, so... But I was the boss, so I wasn't gonna go down there. So, we have a thing called Civic, C-V-I-C, which is the Carrier Intel Center. So, they go down. We always take our tapes 'cause we record stuff when we're fighting. They take it down, and it's really to exercise the system when we're in training, so that when we actually get over to... In this case, we were going over to the Persian Gulf. You know, anything that we do comes in and gets debriefed, and then it all gets sent off. That's how you get the CNN video and all that. So, they go down, and they debrief, and they have to tell, "Hey, we, we chased this object. We don't know what it is," you know, and of course, everyone now is gonna make jokes 'cause we know we're gonna catch shit because that's how the Navy works, you know?

    15. JR

      Right. (laughs)

    16. CF

      And I told them, I said, I remember telling the guy in my backseat, I said, "Dude, you know we're gonna catch maximum shit for this."

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. CF

      And he goes, "Yes, sir. I'll show you the comics. I have them on my phone." We do, uh, the air plan comes out, so we know it's gonna come down. So he goes and he... They, they debrief this. Both crews go in, and, and, uh, of course, everyone at intel thinks this is hilarious. So, the flight, th- you know, Chad comes in with his tapes, you know, and when he lands, and th- here's the, the thing. "Oh, VFA-41. Ha-ha. You guys see any UFOs out there?" And he pulls out that tape and drops it on the counter and he goes, "Yeah, it's on here." So, they're like, "Oh, shit." So, they copy it. They play it, and there's a big, uh, it looks like a rack system. They put the 8-mil in, it gets copied to a hard drive, and then they, they archive it. So, you go, "Okay, so they got this video." And then, you know, the ship... If this spreads, you know, if you have a rumor on the ship, 5,000 people are gonna know about it within probably 30 minutes. I mean, it spreads there, it's like a virus. So, the whole ship now knows that we chased this. I guarantee you, the whole Princeton knew this stuff was going on. Um, and it goes all the way up. Th- the admiral knows about it. The captain of the ship knew about it. And, uh, and then all the movies 'cause we have, they play movies for us on the ship, and they run, like, a 12-hour loop. So, of course, the movie selection is Men in Black, Men in Black 2-

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. CF

      ... Signs, Independence Day-

    21. JR

      (laughs)

    22. CF

      ... um, and, and we know we're gonna be on the airplan comic 'cause there's always a comic. So, you, you do something stupid or like this, then you're gonna be on a comic. I'll show you the comics here in a little bit.

    23. JR

      Okay.

    24. CF

      Th- they're pretty funny. Um, but, uh, you know, so that went on for two days, but you know, we're in the middle of workups, and I got a squadron to run, so it's like, you know, there was... After about the first day and a half, it really died down, and then it was the, there was always that closet people that you don't think that are really, like, UFO buffs. And you know-

    25. JR

      Mm.

    26. CF

      ... like, we had one of, one o- one of the Marines would always come and he'd sit down. "Hey, hey, Skipper, can I sit with you?" I go, "You wanna talk about the UFO?" He goes, "Yeah, I just, I can't get it out of my mind." And then we would just sit there and talk about it, you know? And to me it was like, "Eh." You know? We're just saying, you know, I, my entire now flying career is defined by five minutes of chasing this white Tic Tac-

    27. JR

      (laughs)

    28. CF

      ... vice almost 4,000 hours (laughs) , you know, of flying, so...

    29. JR

      Now, did you encounter anyone else that had a similar experience?

    30. CF

      I've talked to the guys, couple of guys from the East Coast event, the Gimbal video.

  4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

    (laughs) …

    1. CF

      a void. Then it doesn't ... Then air, you could literally, in theory, fly, go into the ocean, cruise around, pop back up, fly around, go to space. I- i- you're, uh, nothing, y- y- you remove the barriers of the normal propulsion that we have today. There's been many instances of sightings off the coast of California of things that plunge into the water or, or escape from the water and take off into space. So- Yeah. There, i- it, with the field propulsion system as Commander Fravor's describing, as Lazar described, it doesn't matter the medium of space, air or water, there's no resistance, no splash. I mean, this goes back to, you know, when Christopher Columbus reported a UFO sighting. He did? Oh, yeah. Th- this idea, th- so this has been around. Anyway, this idea, boom, that you can go through these different mediums, it- Hold, pause for a second. Christopher Columbus had a UFO sighting? Yeah. It's, it's a written account, so it's like- Find that. ... no video. Jim is on. (laughs) It's not gonna be in the video. No video. There's no video. This is bullshit then. I'm shocked. (laughs) That's bullshit then. Well, see that's what's so cool. So, C- Commander Fravor's encounter, it's not the most documented, it's not the most dramatic. However, it has had the most impact out of any sighting because of his credibility and the mere fact that the The New York Times picked it up with video footage, radar evidence, and somebody who is as credible as Commander Fravor. It has changed the dynamic of the way people, the government responds, new Navy protocols, because of Commander Fravor coming forward. Um, t- there are, there are s- closed door congressional and senate briefings. He's been part of them. He's admitted that before. There's a new study about UFOs because of this encounter. It's so much evidence, has so much power to it compared to other ones. So, Christopher Columbus, great, c- cool story, somebody wrote it down. Who knows, who knows if he even wrote it down? We have highly documented cases. This one has changed our culture. And that's what's so cool. People are talking about it differently. So, here's, here, this is a good story. This, this is true. So, I was sitting at home and usually when people try and find me, they get my wife's cellphone 'cause it's the first one on the cellphone bill, and it's all in my name. So, I get, I see this call from California and I'm like ... and normally, I don't answer them. And it's her phone, I'm like, "Who's calling my wife?" (laughs) 'Cause that is me. So I answer it and this lady says, "Hey, is Commander Fravor there?" And I go, "Who's calling?" And she goes, "Well, I, I'd like to talk to Commander Fravor." I go, "Who's calling?" And she says, "Hi, I'm a 79-year-old woman and I would just like to tell him my story." I go, "You're talking to him." And she goes, "I've never in my life told anyone this." She goes, "My, I grew up, my dad was in the Navy." She goes, "I was," he was stationed in Rhode Island at first when she was a child. She said we were walking, her and her mom were walking on the beach and they saw these weird lights. So, that kind of got her into that, "Oh, UFOs." She goes, few years later, they had moved to San Francisco. So I imagine Treasure Island because at her age, that would have been, you know, probably in the '50s. Her dad was, she goes her dad was working as a Navy liaison to the agency. And, uh, he came home one day and he had a telegram in his hand. And she goes, "For some reason, he let me read it." She's telling me this story. And I said, "Well, what did it say?" She says it was, it basically said, "Hey, unidentified objects going in and out of the water," and it had a latitude and longitude in it. And he looked at her, she goes, "And I'm a child and I always remember this." She says, "He looked at me and said, 'We get these all the time and it's always in the same area.'"... and I go, of course, I go, "Well, you got the telegram?" She goes, "Of course not. He had to take it back to work." I said, "You don't happen to remember that latitude and longitude." (laughs) She said no, she goes, "But you seem to be so credible and believable," she goes, "I wanted to tell someone the story that I've never told anyone in my life." So, that's what you're starting to see, is people that, you know, very credible. They're n- you know, they're not, they're not crazy. They're not making stuff up, but they're coming out and going, "Hey, I've, I've had these experiences." And I've got a lot of that from over the last two years, where people just find my email and send me stuff saying, "Hey, this happened to me," or, "I saw this." Um, and, and there's, some things are explainable, 'cause I, I got asked to tell (laughs) this, so, 'cause we're kinda ... I have a sick sense of humor at times. (laughs) So, like I said, I had all these quals. So, we used to fly, they don't do it right now because it's a little bit dangerous, but we used to fly night vision goggles low altitude at, in Hornets. All right? So, when you put on night vision goggles, they amplify light, like, a lot. So, you can see a campfire, like, 50 miles away. So, what we used to do at the good spots were down in, like, El Centro, California. There's a range that, uh, there's some bombing ranges, but people go camping in the Superstition Mountains, which is, uh, kind of north and west of Imperial by, uh, uh, I forget what it is, the springs. It's real pretty in the desert. It'll come to me in a minute. So, we would go out at night, flying around on goggles, and you'd see a campfire, and you'd go, "Oh, UFO time." And then you get the airplane going about 600 knots, and then you pull the power back to idle so you can't hear it, and you get zinging towards th- the fire. (laughs) Well, you turn, the lights are all down 'cause we're in a restricted area, so we can do that, and there's lights on it that you can only see if you're on night vision goggles. So, the other airplanes can see us, but no one else can see us. Then you go zinging at it, and then right when you get to the campfire, you pull the airplane into the vertical, you stroke the afterburners, you let them light off, you count to three, you pull them off, and then you just go away. Instant UFO reporting.

    2. JC

      (laughs)

    3. CF

      I'm sitting out in the desert, it's all quiet, then all of a sudden, there's a lure, there's lights in the sky, and they go away and it's gone.

    4. JC

      The campfire's out.

    5. JR

      So, you would, you would do that just to fuck with campers?

    6. CF

      Yes.

    7. JR

      How rude. (laughs)

    8. JC

      (laughs)

    9. CF

      Yes. Yes, I did.

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. JC

      (laughs)

    12. CF

      And I'm not the only one that did it, but-

    13. JR

      Oh.

    14. CF

      ... like I said, we have a sick sense of humor.

    15. JR

      Yes.

    16. CF

      Um-

    17. JR

      I'm sure.

    18. CF

      So, some things are explainable, 'cause I guarantee there were phone calls made on some of the stuff that we did.

    19. JR

      And I guarantee you're not the only one who's ever done that.

    20. CF

      Oh, I know I'm not. (laughs)

    21. JC

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. CF

      Yeah, I'm not that creative, but-

    24. JR

      (sighs)

    25. CF

      ... it's just, you know. Y- you think about it, and you go, because people go, "I s- I saw this," or, "I saw that," 'cause I've got stuff like that, and I go, "Yeah, I used to create stuff like that-"

    26. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CF

      "... just not tell."

    28. JR

      Do you, are you ... Jeremy, I'm sure you're aware of this. The footage from the, uh, the Mexican Air Force?

    29. JC

      Yeah, yeah, I'm very aware of that.

    30. JR

      What do you think about that?

  5. 1:00:00 – 1:03:40

    Mm-hmm. …

    1. CF

      and you think, "Oh, something's sinking," 'cause it's kind of that shape of an airplane, you know, that cross type. So, now it's, oh, crap, now it's search and rescue. We got to go down and see, you know, 'cause there's people, you know, and we are sympathetic. And to the Tic Tac, and as soon it's a Tic Tac, it's like, you know, "Holy shit, what is that?" You know, and when you get... Uh, you know, some people get very emotional when you talk about it, um, because for me, it was like, "Eh, you know, I, you know..." For her, when you talk to her, uh-... she has a disdain for some of the leadership that didn't tell us that these things were out there. You know, that here now we're getting vectored because we were the first time th- the manned airplanes had been airborne when one of these things showed up. That no one even gave us a brief that, "Hey, we're seeing these objects out here for the last two weeks. They're just kinda sh- ... You might wanna know they're out there." And they never told us. No one knew these things existed besides the radar operators, and the radar operators didn't know what they were. They just knew they were seeing blips, you know? So, and there's a lotta stuff that, you know, that it flew around, and it came around me, and it didn't do any of that stuff. It's (laughs) -

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CF

      ... the story that I gave you is just relatively benign, um, but it was, you know, it's, it's an interesting experience, you know.

    4. JR

      So, these incidents that they reported were taking place before you saw your, that Tic Tac encounter-

    5. CF

      Yeah, they-

    6. JR

      ... they were taking place over a period of how many weeks?

    7. CF

      Two weeks.

    8. JR

      Two weeks.

    9. CF

      We, we went out at the beginning of the month for th- this two-week At Sea period. Um, we pulled in for Thanksgiving, but other than that, we were out till, I think December 21st is when we pulled the ship back in, uh, besides pulling in for the three days of Thanksgiving. So yeah, for the two weeks prior, so this was on the 14th, and we went out at the beginning of the month, so about two weeks they had been watching these things come down, go up, come down, go up, but it was always when we were not flying, which is really probably, like, the midnight timeframe until early in the morning the next, you know, till noon the next day, and then we just happened to go. And if you think about it, you know (laughs) , I laugh, y- you know, if, if there was some little green man flying around in that Tic Tac, he probably got back to the mothership and got yelled at for being seen (laughs) .

    10. JR

      (laughs)

    11. CF

      Right? You know, like, "Oh, my God, you let him see you." Um, so...

    12. JR

      So, uh, have you communicated with anybody that has any thoughts on what, what these things are doing, or th- th- w- whether or not there's any consistency to the size of them, or whether or not they, they think they're coming out of a larger object, or anything along these lines?

    13. CF

      No. Um, you know, you can ask, well, 'cause I was asked, you know, "What do you think they were doing," you know? And I said, c- well, you can look, "Well, they were observing," you know, 'cause they're coming down and watching. Number two is, they were communicating, 'cause I think, you know, in my heart, I think there was something under the water. I don't, you know, what it was doing there, but when we went back, it was gone.

    14. JR

      S- this is because of w- w- when you saw the X, the cross-looking-

    15. CF

      Yep.

    16. JR

      ... thing. Explain that again. So, uh, the, the disturbance seemed to be-

    17. CF

      So, think-

    18. JR

      ... in the shape of a cross?

    19. CF

      Yeah, like, uh, I, I describe it as, it's about the size of a 737. So just think, if you submerge the 737, pointing it to the east underwater-

    20. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CF

      ... by, like, you know, 10, 15 feet, so as these waves are coming across, when they, you know, they hit that object, they're gonna break on top-

    22. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CF

      ... just like you would with a submerged, like, a seamount. So, and it's, it's, they're breaking, and that's where the Tic Tac was at. That's the only reason we saw the Tic Tac. That's what drew our eyes-

    24. JR

      Hm.

    25. CF

      ... down there, is we see this white water when it's a perfectly clear day with no whitecaps, and you go, "Whoa, what's that?" And then you see the Tic Tac, and then we t- you know, we do all the chasing of the Tic Tac, and we turn, we're right there, and we turn around, and there's no white water. It's just blue as far as you can see. So, at that point you go, "Okay, what was it doing?" Because there was obviously something there that's not there now.

Episode duration: 1:54:25

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