Joe Rogan Experience #1363 - Dakota Meyer

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (singing) What's up, Dakota?…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (singing) What's up, Dakota?

   2. DMDakota Meyer0:04

      What's coming on?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:05

      How are you, man? We finally did this.

   4. DMDakota Meyer0:06

      Good. I know, finally-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Finally.

   6. DMDakota Meyer0:06

      ... we've been talking about it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      Um, um, I feel super connected to you, man, because, uh, all day I've been listening to you on Jocko's podcast, and the wh- first of all, anybody who really wants to know you in depth, in your element, talking with, uh, a fellow warrior, I, like, strongly recommend that podcast.

   8. DMDakota Meyer0:23

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      Um, for, for people who don't, um, what, what number is it? Do you know which number pod-

   10. DMDakota Meyer0:28

       (smacks lips) Ah, I, I don't even-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       I'll tell you right now.

   12. DMDakota Meyer0:28

       ... I don't know what number it is.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       I was just listening to it. It's, um, Jocko Podcast 115, Into the Fire and Beyond the Call of Duty.

   14. DMDakota Meyer0:39

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:39

       And Jocko is a fucking beast, and you two together talking about the incidents that happened with you overseas, it's insane. I mean, it is, it is, like, I had to call a buddy of mine. I stopped the podcast and called my friend, Brendan, just to talk to him.

   16. DMDakota Meyer0:57

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       I was like, "This is so intense." It's like, I was driving, I was getting nervous, right?

   18. DMDakota Meyer1:03

       (laughs) Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       You know, I'm driving in my fucking c- my L- Tesla, right?

   20. DMDakota Meyer1:07

       Yeah. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:07

       My little electric car, I'm driving, my hands are sweating, and I'm breathing heavy. I'm like, "Fuck."

   22. DMDakota Meyer1:12

       (laughs) Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:12

       It was...

   24. DMDakota Meyer1:13

       Well, if you hear all those, like, you know, when you're listening to that podcast, that, that was, by far, the most... I mean, he, like, Jocko just pulled it out of me, like, right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       Yeah.

   26. DMDakota Meyer1:21

       Like, you know, most everybody hits, like, the, the, the high points of it, but, you know, me and Jocko just made that connection. It was the first time we'd ever met, and, uh-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       Oh, (snaps fingers) real?

   28. DMDakota Meyer1:28

       ... face-to-face. Yeah. We just went, like, you know, he picked me, he actually picked me up from the airport and we went, we went there. And we sat down and did the, the, uh, the podcast. And, and, I don't know, I, I, I think, I think he knew the questions to ask because I think it was good for both of us because-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:42

       Yeah.

   30. DMDakota Meyer1:43

       ... you know, if you got to the point, kind of, in the middle of it, if you start hearing those silences, it was both of us trying to keep from tears falling, right?
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. There's a thing…

   1. DMDakota Meyer15:00

      that I see these people holding their video cameras up and they're videoing somebody like, getting just beat. And it's like, well, how do you do that and not help? How does that not just suck everything out of you to not wanna do something?

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:12

      Yeah. There's a thing called diffusion of responsibility that happens to people in crowds, unfortunately. And it's also the same thing that I think when you're filming something that's happening in real life, it's the same thing that you see in these video games and on television shows. I mean, we- we have never had more violence in film form and in video game form ever.

   3. DMDakota Meyer15:35

      Ever.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      But yet we've never had less violence violence. Like, how many people who play these games that have seen people get shot over and over and over and over again have never seen a body? Never seen anybody get severely wounded or shot?

   5. DMDakota Meyer15:48

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:49

      And so to them, getting shot and shooting people is always, uh, it's almost like empty.

   7. DMDakota Meyer15:57

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:57

      It's like bang, bang, bang. There's a guy, he comes out of the bushes. Bang, bang, bang, you shoot him. Here comes this guy. Bang, bang, bang, you shoot him. And it doesn't feel like anything. And then you shut it off and you have a sandwich, and then you turn it on again, you do it again.

   9. DMDakota Meyer16:06

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:06

       So you're- you're experiencing this thing that's empty. It's- it's like you're pretending to drink water but there's nothing in the glass, you just keep doing it over and over again. And then you get some real water and you're like, "Oh, this is, uh, this is different."

   11. DMDakota Meyer16:19

       Yeah. This is different.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:20

       And that's not even a good ana- that's a terrible analogy, but the- the analogy of numbing, that people are numb to this fake violence and have no experience with the real stuff. So they think of the real stuff the same way they think of the fake stuff.

   13. DMDakota Meyer16:33

       They do. And then- and then, you know... And sometimes when they see it, they still are numb. They still can't act, right?

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       Yeah. Right.

   15. DMDakota Meyer16:38

       Like, they still don't... It's kinda like, uh, it's kinda like imagine... The way I look at it is, you know, you look at all these simulators, like flight simulators, like... I mean, there's all this virtual reality, right? Of- of... That people are using this for actually training. And so like, you don't think that it's the same way when you're doing this? And then you've got games that come out like Grand Theft Auto.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:56

       Right.

   17. DMDakota Meyer16:56

       Like, where you're just running around and you're-

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       Shooting hookers, running people over.

   19. DMDakota Meyer16:59

       Shooting hookers and running. Like-

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:01

       Yeah.

   21. DMDakota Meyer17:01

       Like, how does that, how does that ev- How has anything positive come from that?

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       Right, right. How is anything positive? Yeah. It's, um... We're a weird culture and then-

   23. DMDakota Meyer17:11

       We're weird. (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:12

       You could see all the violence you want. Like I watched John Wick 3 last night, I finally finished it. Jesus Christ.

   25. DMDakota Meyer17:19

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:19

       Three-quarters of the way through I- I'm like, "H- how many fucking people have they killed? This is so ridiculous."

   27. DMDakota Meyer17:24

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:24

       It's just a- a murder fest. It's murder porn, that's what it's like.

   29. DMDakota Meyer17:27

       (laughs) It's murder porn. (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       Isn't- isn't it? Kinda?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   That's an important point,…

   1. DMDakota Meyer30:00

      was just-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:02

      That's an important point, what you just said. "Nobody thought they were wrong." Not them, not you.

   3. DMDakota Meyer30:06

      Yeah. You know, I, I, i- But... And it changed me that day. Like, I walked in there that day and I was the guy who was cocky, who would tell you, you know, "I love fighting." Do you know what I mean? Like, "I, like, I just wanna go fight." Like, you know, but ev- every fight I had before that, it was like, th- You know, I always had airplanes sitting, you know, o- or heli- helicopters sitting, sitting around. I always had... You know, uh, it was like, "I'm gonna go in there and start the fight, and then I'm gonna call in all this other, this other stuff to, to, to win, right?" And, um, that day it wasn't there and, and, and literally I, I walked out of there and, and, um...... I, I just think about all the time today, I just think about all the time of how many generations just that day were changed, how many generations of, of people's lives were changed. You know, all my teammates died, so they'll never have kids. That generation's s- stopped. Their families forever ex- you know, so many lives were changed that day by that, that, that piece. And guess what? And everybody in America had no clue it was going on. Like, right now there are US troops, somebody wondering if they're gonna be able to come home and see their family again. That's reality. Whether you wanna ignore it or not, like, that's reality. And that was me September 8th, 2009. And it was just a... Gosh, it was a chaotic day.

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:36

      It's amazing how you could have, uh, thousands of days in your life and one day changes the way you look at everything.

   5. DMDakota Meyer31:45

      One day changes the way you look at everything. And, you know, in like, the, the further I go on, I, I, I look at it different, you know? I, I always talk about the story of, um... you know, whenever s- this guy came up behind me and, and I ended up, I ended up killing him with a rock. And I always remember just, like, I remember it, like, I see it every night, like, I remember, like, I just see his face. And like, I just... 'Cause there was a point, there was a point that I, I, I feel like that anybody that, when they... whether they're injured or anything, like, they realize they're defeated. Like, they're... Like, it... Like, y- I don't know. I, I just think there's a point when you look at somebody and they know they're gonna die. And I'll never forget that. And I, you know, now I look at it and I see it, and I always think that, like, uh, this guy is a son to somebody. His mother and father are gonna miss him. This guy, he believes in his cause as much as I do. He doesn't believe he's wrong. Th- this guy, this guy, he, he could have had a wife or kids that are never gonna see their father again, just like, you know, m- my dad might have never seen me again if it was switched. And really, I don't even know th- I don't hate him. I don't even know this guy. (laughs) We're just here at this place right now because we were born in two different countries.

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:17

      Were you out of weapons? Were you out of, out of ammo?

   7. DMDakota Meyer33:20

      N- uh, so my... No, he had came up and he started choking me. Um, I had shot him once before, and he... I was trying to pick my buddy, Daouda Lee. My, my, my, one of my closest Afghans, Daouda Lee, had been shot. He, he had got kil- he had been killed. And I came around this terrace to get him, and I was on my knee, and this guy came up behind me. And, um...

   8. JRJoe Rogan33:40

      So he didn't have a weapon either. He was trying-

   9. DMDakota Meyer33:42

      No, he did. He, he had a weapon, and I ended up shooting him from the ground, and I thought he was dead when he fell on the ground. And I kind of moved down and got down with Daouda Lee 'cause we, I was still getting shot at from this machine gun up on this hill, and I was trying to make myself small as I could. And, um, this guy ends up coming up and choking me. Like, I thought he was d- I thought he was dead. And he ends up choking me out. He starts trying to choke me out, and eventually let up a little bit. And I ended up getting around him, and I just got... We were fighting back and forth, and I can remember all I was thinking about was like, "Don't let his legs get on me." Like, you know, these guys, their legs are... I mean, they've been crawling up mountains their whole life. And he was a, he was a pretty big dude. And, um, I just remember getting on top of him, finally got on top of him, and I ended up... I, I was rolling on top of him. He didn't have all the gear on I did, and, um, I ended up... I remember getting on top of him, like, like, I was straddling him, and I'm just reaching up trying to grab for anything I can. And I'm holding him, and, uh, holding him down with my thr- with my, my forearm, and I'm just grabbing anything I can. And finally, I ended up grabbing a rock, and I just started beating this dude's face in. And I just started beating and beating and beating, and I remember, I remember just like, finally, after hitting him, you know, I don't know, three or four times, four or five times, whatever, I remember him, like, finally just kind of looking at me and like, just, it's, it's like, he's like just, um, just looking at me in the eyes, like, obviously closer than me to you right now. And you just see all the... You can tell, like, he knows where this is going. And I always think about that, you know. Um, obviously, I would kill him a million times over again, right? He, he was the enemy. (laughs) Like, I don't feel as bad about that part of it. But I just think about, like, in that moment, if I can find a way to relate to him in that moment, a man I'm taking his life, we all in America can find a way to connect with each other. If we don't connect with each other, it's 'cause we choose not to. I don't care what your differences are. Like, don't... Like, find a reason of why we can get along, not why we should not get along.

   10. JRJoe Rogan35:46

       Right.

   11. DMDakota Meyer35:46

       And, and I, I always think about that moment, you know, of this guy. And, you know, he- obviously he ended up dying, and, and, and what it showed me was, is that no cause that you have that's built on hate will survive. I didn't hate this guy. I didn't even know him, but I was willing to, to take his life because of what I loved. And that's what, that's what we have to build our lives and our foundation on, is not, not being angry and hating each other, but because we love the cause that we believe in so much. Does that make sense?

   12. JRJoe Rogan36:26

       It does make sense. I understand what you're saying. The way they look at it in Afghanistan, this, uh... So it's... Is it Al-Qaeda or the Taliban?

   13. DMDakota Meyer36:36

       So Al-Qaeda's (sighs) , uh, mainly in... So Al-Qaeda was in Iraq, um-

   14. JRJoe Rogan36:40

       Al-Q- So, Al-Qaeda is the issue that's in Iraq, and the Taliban is the issue-

   15. DMDakota Meyer36:44

       Taliban, Afghanistan.

   16. JRJoe Rogan36:44

       ... that's in Afghanistan. And the Taliban-What are they trying to do? Are they trying to run a religious caliphate?

   17. DMDakota Meyer36:51

       Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they just want, they, you know, they wanna run, you know, it the way that they want to, right? Like, they wanna, they don't want, they don't believe in, you know, women being educated. They... I mean, they don't believe in any, like, like, they don't believe in... You know, they go back to that, their beliefs of, you know, it's driven by religion of, of all that control. They want the c- they want the control.

   18. JRJoe Rogan37:11

       And how much support do they have from the general population?

   19. DMDakota Meyer37:14

       I mean, I think, (sighs) it- I- not, not necessarily the support, but... because I think that... It's not necessarily support, it's the power that they have, right? Like, they come in and, and they lead with a heavy hand, right? I mean, there's, these... They don't... These, these, these... The locals run the place, but the Taliban is kind of like... look at it like a gang, right? Like kind of like a, a, like, like a, a mob or, or, or, or, or-

   20. JRJoe Rogan37:40

       Okay.

   21. DMDakota Meyer37:40

       ... or like, um... The Taliban is kind of like, um, the cartel, right? Um, and so that's, that's where they come from and they try to lead with violence and same thing that you would, you know, you would see with the cartel. The Taliban is kind of like an over-... a, a big cartel.

   22. JRJoe Rogan37:57

       And so the general pop- the population, they would like that to not be the case?

   23. DMDakota Meyer38:02

       Yeah, I mean, they-

   24. JRJoe Rogan38:03

       I mean, they want a, a system of democracy similar to what we have?

   25. DMDakota Meyer38:06

       (laughs) I mean, I don't know if they want that, but I, I don't think-

   26. JRJoe Rogan38:08

       They want something better than what they have.

   27. DMDakota Meyer38:09

       They... Of course. Like, I mean, I think they all see that they live in shitholes, right?

   28. JRJoe Rogan38:13

       Right.

   29. DMDakota Meyer38:13

       They all see... You know, I, I think that they, they, they know what could get... you know, how it could be better and how life could be better, you know?

   30. JRJoe Rogan38:22

       Yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      a fucking smoothie-

   2. DMDakota Meyer45:01

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:01

      ... it doesn't seem real. You know, and you can have all these opinions about what we should be doing, you know, and that we, we need to stop these war mongers, we need to stop this and stop that. And I've, I've, I've had those opinions myself in the past and gone back and forth. And the only thing that's changed my mind is, I listen to people that actually know.

   4. DMDakota Meyer45:22

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:22

      I think it's one of the most important things you could ever do. And don't try to form an opinion if you don't really have any facts, and real, uh, any real understanding. I've done that in the past too. I've made those mistakes. But when-

   6. DMDakota Meyer45:33

      I can, I can tell you this, like, uh, you know, you look at 9/11, thousands of people died, and they, none of them volunteered to give their country for their life that day, except obviously the first responders. You look since 9/11, besides a, a couple attacks that's been in America, but you look since 9/11, everybody that's given their life overseas has volunteered to do that. They volunteered to go fight the evil. And for us to go over there and do that and keep it off the country, to keep it out of our country, to keep it to where, you know, our kids and our families and, and our mothers and fathers and, and, don't have to worry about this, I mean, obviously, obviously, it could h- happen anywhere. But, but I can't think that us being over there and giving them a place to fight us has not helped this country keep from being attacked multiple times if we had not gone over there.

   7. JRJoe Rogan46:33

      That's a hard pill for people to swallow, right? They, they don't wanna think that. Because-

   8. DMDakota Meyer46:37

      Because-

   9. JRJoe Rogan46:37

      ... they wanna think the reason why they would attack us is because we're over there.

   10. DMDakota Meyer46:41

       Yeah. Well, you know what? I mean, uh, what, what, what do you, how, why did we get attacked on 9/11?

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:47

       That's a good question.

   12. DMDakota Meyer46:48

       You know? Like-

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:49

       Right.

   14. DMDakota Meyer46:49

       ... uh, th- these people hate us just because they hate us. Like, they, they... It's not, it's not about, you know, I, I... Nah, there was that one worker that, that said that, "Oh, we should go over there and get them more jobs and more opportunities." No, these people don't care. Like, these people have... They wake up every day and, and, and try to think of a way to kill us. Like, there's no negotiating with these people. These people are evil. These people will do nasty things to human beings that, that, no... you couldn't even imagine, you couldn't make a video game about. I mean, you, you look at, you look at some of this ISIS stuff of what they're doing. I mean, putting somebody in a cage and burning them? You wanna be empathetic to that? Throwing people because, uh, because of their sexual preference off the top... Tying their hands and, and legs together and throwing them off the top of a building? These are the type of people that... This is the type of evil, like, that, that, that, that we're going after. And if we don't do it, who's gonna do it?

   15. JRJoe Rogan47:50

       Right.

   16. DMDakota Meyer47:50

       Who's gonna do it?

   17. JRJoe Rogan47:52

       Do you think it's possible that this all could be resolved someday? And maybe if it's not our children, our children's children?

   18. DMDakota Meyer48:01

       No.

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:01

       Do you think it's possible?

   20. DMDakota Meyer48:02

       Nope.

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:03

       That's-

   22. DMDakota Meyer48:04

       I don't-

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:04

       That... Everybody says that. They're just-

   24. DMDakota Meyer48:06

       That's e-

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:06

       ... one of the most disheartening things about any kind of conflict.

   26. DMDakota Meyer48:10

       But I mean, if you look at any of the books that came before us, this is, this is what you get. This is, this is just part of any... At any point in time, there's, there's conflict going on. It'll never be resolved. It'll never be resolved. It will never be resolved. So it's main- it's like a maintenance program.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:35

       Phew. Whoo. That's hard for people to swallow, right? 'Cause people wanna think that the reason why it'll never be resolved is because the military-industrial complex wants to keep us at war, and this is just a big money grab, and that's all they're trying to do, is the reason why they have us over there, is they're, they're sending people over there to die so that they can make money. This is-This is how people love to look at it.

   28. DMDakota Meyer48:59

       I mean, everybody wants to f- I, I think it's just because everybody wants to find a reason. You know, everybody wants to, everybody wants a, um, a reason that they can touch, feel, and blame. Like, they want something to blame.

   29. JRJoe Rogan49:12

       Right.

   30. DMDakota Meyer49:13

       And they, you know, there's n- nothing to blame except the people who are doing this and it exists and it's real and these are real people. And you know what? We're just so lucky that we have an all volunteer military with some of the greatest people that's ever walked the face of the planet who are willing to go do this, who are willing to do it on, on mine and your behalf. I mean, how cool is that?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:11:18

   I've never heard of…

   1. DMDakota Meyer1:00:00

      You know, uh, most people hadn't heard of this, you know?

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:03

      I've never heard of this.

   3. DMDakota Meyer1:00:04

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:05

      Yeah.

   5. DMDakota Meyer1:00:05

      It's... Uh, i- and it's, um... I went in and he called me the next day and he was like, "So, how do you feel?" I said, "Man, I caught myself singing in the shower this morning."

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:15

      (laughs)

   7. DMDakota Meyer1:00:15

      I got... Caught myself singing in the shower. I was like-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:16

      What were you singing?

   9. DMDakota Meyer1:00:17

      I don't... I can't remember. But I was like, "Man, I caught myself singing in the shower." Like, I actually... Like, I walked out of there and I... And, and to me, you know, I got to a point... At that point, like... I, I got to a low point and I just... Uh, there was nothing... Like, there's nothing in my life I can complain about. Like, there's nothing I... I have... This country has given me a life that I could've never dreamed to ever have. Um, I have no problems. Zero. And I just woke up every day and I was just like, "I just don't wanna wake up feeling like this." And so he's like, "Come do this. Come do this." And I came out there-

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       Wow.

   11. DMDakota Meyer1:00:56

       ... and did it and it, it changed, it changed my whole life.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:01

       That sounds infinitely better than-... therapy or talking through it, or any, any of the other methods I've ever heard of.

   13. DMDakota Meyer1:01:07

       Yeah. Well, I mean, I think all that, I think you, I think all that matters, I think the therapy, like if you wanna go do talk therapy, that's, that's good. Like you, you, you should do that. But I always tell people who go do talk therapy, like go in there with a plan of where you want your life to be. Like, it's like going to a nutrition coach or a workout coach and, and not giving them goals.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:24

       Right.

   15. DMDakota Meyer1:01:24

       You know, don't go in there just to go in there. Like, go in there with a plan. You know, hey, how, how, and have them help you get to that plan. With this, this is instantly, just like that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

       That's incredible.

   17. DMDakota Meyer1:01:35

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:35

       Now, do they, do they try to do that in conjunction with medication? Does it just a standalone thing?

   19. DMDakota Meyer1:01:40

       Standalone thing.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:41

       Wow.

   21. DMDakota Meyer1:01:41

       Standalone thing. You know, the only thing I do to, to help mine, and my anxiety's like, it, it can get bad. Like, I'm talking bad.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:49

       When, when, and when you say that, like, what happens? Like, what's, what's the process?

   23. DMDakota Meyer1:01:54

       You know, I, I usually feel it building up, um-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:57

       Over days?

   25. DMDakota Meyer1:01:58

       Yeah, days. Like, it's almost like a, like it'll come and then it just builds up and then it's like th- it'll, you'll have like a little, little bit of an anxiety attack or whatever, you'll start feeling anxiety or anxious, and then that becomes your new baseline.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

       Mm.

   27. DMDakota Meyer1:02:12

       And then it keeps building, and people don't recognize it. And for a long time, I used to, like, I used to drink a lot, and I didn't, because I didn't, I didn't know what anxiety was. I mean, I, well, well, well how, what do you mean? Like, this is how I feel all the time.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:25

       Right.

   29. DMDakota Meyer1:02:26

       And then, you know, s- then what usually happens is at night it'll just, when I go to sleep, it'll just, it'll rock me. It'll rock me. I'll start throwing up, I'll be sweating, I'll be crying, like, I mean, I'll be in the floor.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:36

       Now, are you thinking things when this is happening? Or is it just an overwhelming sense of anxiety just, uh, just oh, just oh, all-encompassing?

Episode duration: 2:08:27