Joe Rogan Experience #1363 - Dakota Meyer

Dakota Meyer is a United States Marine. A veteran of the War in Afghanistan, he was awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions during the Battle of Ganjgal on 8 September 2009, in Kunar Province, Afghanistan. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvGC46FcB8QTaYLWm9bAyMg?view_as=subscriber

Joe RoganhostDakota MeyerguestJamie VernonguestGuest (unidentified friend of Dakota Meyer)guest

Oct 9, 20192h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,023 words

0:00 – 3:28
Connecting through Jocko’s interview and the intensity of combat storytelling
1. JRJoe Rogan
  (singing) What's up, Dakota?
2. DMDakota Meyer
  What's coming on?
3. JRJoe Rogan
  How are you, man? We finally did this.
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Good. I know, finally-
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Finally.
6. DMDakota Meyer
  ... we've been talking about it.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Um, um, I feel super connected to you, man, because, uh, all day I've been listening to you on Jocko's podcast, and the wh- first of all, anybody who really wants to know you in depth, in your element, talking with, uh, a fellow warrior, I, like, strongly recommend that podcast.
8. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Um, for, for people who don't, um, what, what number is it? Do you know which number pod-
10. DMDakota Meyer
  (smacks lips) Ah, I, I don't even-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  I'll tell you right now.
12. DMDakota Meyer
  ... I don't know what number it is.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  I was just listening to it. It's, um, Jocko Podcast 115, Into the Fire and Beyond the Call of Duty.
14. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  And Jocko is a fucking beast, and you two together talking about the incidents that happened with you overseas, it's insane. I mean, it is, it is, like, I had to call a buddy of mine. I stopped the podcast and called my friend, Brendan, just to talk to him.
16. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  I was like, "This is so intense." It's like, I was driving, I was getting nervous, right?
18. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs) Yeah.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, I'm driving in my fucking c- my L- Tesla, right?
20. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah. (laughs)
21. JRJoe Rogan
  My little electric car, I'm driving, my hands are sweating, and I'm breathing heavy. I'm like, "Fuck."
22. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs) Yeah.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  It was...
24. DMDakota Meyer
  Well, if you hear all those, like, you know, when you're listening to that podcast, that, that was, by far, the most... I mean, he, like, Jocko just pulled it out of me, like, right?
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
26. DMDakota Meyer
  Like, you know, most everybody hits, like, the, the, the high points of it, but, you know, me and Jocko just made that connection. It was the first time we'd ever met, and, uh-
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, (snaps fingers) real?
28. DMDakota Meyer
  ... face-to-face. Yeah. We just went, like, you know, he picked me, he actually picked me up from the airport and we went, we went there. And we sat down and did the, the, uh, the podcast. And, and, I don't know, I, I, I think, I think he knew the questions to ask because I think it was good for both of us because-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
30. DMDakota Meyer
  ... you know, if you got to the point, kind of, in the middle of it, if you start hearing those silences, it was both of us trying to keep from tears falling, right?
3:28 – 6:02
“Land of the free” and what civilians miss about military sacrifice
1. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm. Well, there's a cliché, you know, that comes up when people talk about military, you know, that, you know, people will say things, and sometimes it, it's, it's hard to understand whether or not they grasp exactly what they're saying, but that people make sacrifices so that you could be free. And I don't think, I don't think people re- it's hard to truly internalize that without having experienced what you've experienced, what Jocko and Tim Kennedy have experienced. When I'm listening to it, I'm, I know that it's correct. I know that it's true. I support it 100%, but it's almost like a- an alien thing to me because-
2. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... I've never experienced it. So when hearing you guys talk about it and climbing inside your head for a bit and let- and listen to you describe it, that, that c- cliché, "The land of the free because of the brave," it, it, it, it gets highlighted. Where you understand, like, this is why America's not like it is in other places because of this strong military. And one of the things you guys talked about in that podcast was this idea of us invading Afghanistan, but you were fighting alongside Afghans.
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Absolutely.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  And most people who talk about war will have this peripheral, sort of cursory understanding about what they would like the world to be like.
6. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, that they would like no war, and that, "Oh, this is terrible. We shouldn't be over there." They don't truly understand what you understand.
8. DMDakota Meyer
  No, they, they don't. And, and, and I think, you know, the perspective that I get to come back, and I think all these guys telling their stories, you know, from Rob O'Neil to Marcus Luttrell, like, I think every, every warrior out there has to tell their story to make people understand, right? Like, it's so important for that because we've got a perspective of the world that a lot of people don't get.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
10. DMDakota Meyer
  And, uh, you know, I mean, I stood next to, I stood next to people, uh, that, that we couldn't... Like, you talk about not believing, not being raised, not coming from the same place, not having... You know, we could have found every reason not to, to be on the same ground, but we stood next to each other, and we're willing to die for each other. We found, we chose to find the common denominator. And that was because there's only two types of people in this world. There's good and evil.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes. Now-
12. DMDakota Meyer
  Like that, it really comes down to that. Like, like, war is so simple. Life is so simple. When you try to complicate it, there's other reasons. And it's like, this, this whole, this whole thing, we were all over there fighting for this, for, for the belief to be free, this, this, this belief of democracy, this belief of, of what we all live for. And it's, you can't see it, but, but we live it every day. And we were willing to give our lives for, for, for people we didn't even know, people we didn't even meet.
6:02 – 7:08
Afghan partners, shared brotherhood, and grief beyond national lines
1. JRJoe Rogan
  One of the things you talked about with Jocko, we s- you said you didn't just lose four brothers that day, you lost ten.
2. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Because you lost six Afghani brothers as well.
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah, we lo- you know, the, the, the Afghans were as close to me as, as the Marines were. You know, my, my team of Afghan soldiers... You know, I lived on a base, it was four US and 80 Afghans. And every day, I went out on patrol and I'm patrolling with them and they're no different than, than me and you. You know? They, they just want a place... I'll never forget, that really hit home to me, is I had an, an Afghan, we were sitting up on the mountain, the, actually the cover of my book, it was that day. We were sitting on the c- uh, on the, on that, that mountain 'cause we had chased some Taliban up, up that hill. And we were sitting up there and this Afghan looked at me and he just said, "I hope that some day you can bring your family here on vacation. I hope that we can get it to that point."
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
6. DMDakota Meyer
  And it really hit home to me. It's like, you know, uh, uh, we're all just alike. You know, we're all just alike. We all just wanna live a, a great life and we all just wanna get along. I mean, if you don't, if you don't get along, it's 'cause you choose not to get along.
7:08 – 11:56
Why the U.S. is in Afghanistan/Iraq (as Dakota saw it): fighting alongside, not against
1. JRJoe Rogan
  For people who don't understand the conflict af- in Afghanistan, explain what is happening and why we're over there.
2. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah, so, you know, the, basically, Afghanistan, a- and, and it was the same thing in Iraq too, I mean, you know, that's where these terrorist organizations were, right? And, uh, you know, we're over there fighting alongside Afghanistan. We're over there fighting alongside Iraq. We're not fighting Iraq and fighting Afghanistan, we are fighting alongside both of those countries and trying to rebuild it up and trying to get rid of these terrorist cells that are inside those countries. You know? Uh, like you said, I mean, uh, everybody thinks that, you know, we're fighting Iraq and we're fighting Afghanistan, and it's not the case. We're alongside them, helping them rebuild their countries.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, uh, when you go to Black Rifle Coffee in, uh, Salt Lake-
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you know, those guys are awesome.
6. DMDakota Meyer
  Awesome.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  They, they brought a bunch of former Afghani troops over and they work for 'em over there-
8. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  ... like a lot of the guys working in the factory.
10. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  You're like, "Oh, okay." I g- I, like these, these guys are so close to these people, they brought 'em back and gave 'em jobs-
12. DMDakota Meyer
  Absolutely.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  ... in America.
14. DMDakota Meyer
  Absolutely.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, and this is, um... I just think most people don't really have a full picture of what, what's at stake and why it's even happening. They just don't want war, right?
16. DMDakota Meyer
  They just, they just don't want war, but it's like, you know, I mean, there, there's no way, you mean, you can go in your house and, and, and lock your doors and, and sit there and try to pretend that the evil that we fight doesn't exist, but it exists. It exists. It's there. It's there. And if we don't go fight it over there, it's gonna come here.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  That's another cliche that, like, seems alien to people. You know, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a true statement. It's always been true throughout human history. But when you live in a country like America, we're so fortunate. It's so awesome here. Even when it sucks, it's awesome. In comparison to the rest of the world, you know, um, um, it's very rare that you have a place where you really can start at the bottom and make your way up to be a successful person.
18. DMDakota Meyer
  I mean, literally you can start here and come from nothing and within your generation be the President of the United States. You could literally start from that. And, and it's the only country on the face of the planet. And I, I tell people all the time, like, you know, just because, you know, we, we get so caught up, like right now is like an emotional time for, for America, right? It's getting ready to, I call it the draining time, you know, from now until, you know, November, uh, you know, until the election time, it's gonna be draining, right? And everybody's getting so emotional and fired up and-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. DMDakota Meyer
  ... and it's like, you know, like, it's gonna be whatever. Um, but the cool part is, is that this country, like from all of us in the military, from all our first responders, our police officers, you know, we're the only country on the face of the planet that doesn't swear allegiance to a person. We swear allegiance to a document, to a piece of paper. And that's, that's what, that's what allows us to be us. That's what allows us to not have one person come in and be able to change up this idea that we have of democracy, of freedom. And, and that's, that's, that's something that's just, it's incredible. That's what keeps our country the way it is, right? Like, there's not... You know, the people will always be in charge here. And you know what? Most of America, most... 99% of America is incredible. Is incredible. And you know what? They're gonna, they're stopping and they're helping people and it's just the loud ones that make us look, you know, make it look like it's all chaotic.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, people love to point out the horrible aspects and they love to ignore the good aspects. They love to dwell on the bad parts. And I think ultimately that's gonna prove to be good for everybody because those people that are highlighting all these bad things, then everybody else has to think about it and we'll slowly but surely evolve and come to an understanding and, and, and make the world a better place. It's a way better place now than it was 100 years ago or 200 years ago. And I think this is a, I mean, Steven Pinker talks about this all the time i- in his books, but, and, and is criticized for it because a lot of people don't like the idea that things are getting better.
22. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  They wanna dwell on the negative aspects.
24. DMDakota Meyer
  100%.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  And they wanna, they wanna, uh, magnify those and make it the most important focal point. I think the most important focal point if we wanna have a good world is concentrate on the good aspects and, uh, and, w- how, um, amazing it really is that we have this incredible ability to express ourselves, this incredible ability to prosper, to move... And, I mean, you know, people don't get the, the same share or the same stake in life. A lot of people get a terrible opening hand of cards.
26. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  But you can improve. And this is one of the rare places in the world where you can, if you're, if you're so inclined, if you have the discipline, if you could figure it out emotionally, if you could figure it out in terms of like what you wanna do in your life, you can, you can, uh, live a he- a healthy and successful life in this country. It's possible.
11:56 – 17:36
America, opportunity, and a culture drifting into victimhood and desensitization
1. DMDakota Meyer
  It's 100%. 100%. Like, nobody's holding you down, right? Like, you have the choice to, to be able to do that. You have the choice to, to go out... Every opportunity's here. Like, there's no other country that has more opportunities than the United States of America. Um, e- especially, I mean, for anybody. And, and I agree with you. I, I think that, that, that this, that society has gotten into this...... to this place of where we're- we're trying to out-victimize each other. Like, who can be the bigger victim? Who's had it harder?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
3. DMDakota Meyer
  And- and, you know, it's- it's- the- the thing that I also believe is that with technology and all this, is the empathy like- like suffering has became normal for people, right? Like- like it's became entertainment. Like, look at reality TV, like people's messed up lives.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
5. DMDakota Meyer
  That's entertainment for people now.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
7. DMDakota Meyer
  Video games of, you know... And I talk about this all the time, about war, right? We, we came back and it was... We... Like, war has now been romanticized. It's been romanticized that it's this cool image of like... I hear people say, "I just wanna go kick in doors and shoot people in the face." And it's like, well, you- you've probably never done it then. And it's like, we've got our kids playing video games of the stuff that keeps me awake at night. And it's like h- w- you know, at what point do we start humanizing these things?
8. JRJoe Rogan
  When you see one of those crazy video games, those, uh, first person shooters-
9. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  ... involving war, does- does that bring back memories? I mean, does it, does it-
11. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Or does it irritate you?
13. DMDakota Meyer
  It- it... You know, it- it... I g- You know, I- I under- I think that what's not put out there is, is... You know, I hear kids talking about, "Hey, you know, uh, did you use this or did you use this or did..." You know, I... You hear people say, "Well, did you kill somebody?" Right? And it- it's like, like kids. And I don't think that that's... You know, I- I... Like, to me, that bothers me because it's not... There's nothing cool about taking another human's life. And- and when you're playing video games and it's like, "Oh, I got, you know, this many kills," like these kids are just watching this screen over and over. And the more, you know, the more graphic it gets, the- like the less desensitized that we have to another human being suffering.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Right. The more desensitized we are, right?
15. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah, desensitized, right?
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
17. DMDakota Meyer
  Like the more desensitized and then you start, you know, the- the more the movies go and the more... I mean, you know, I think- I think that like, we've just like, we've pushed ourselves away from, you know, from being empathetic to, hey, these are real people. These are real people's lives. Like, what if they... You know, we've stopped looking at, looking at people and saying, you know, "This is someone's child."
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
19. DMDakota Meyer
  "This is someone's mother."
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
21. DMDakota Meyer
  "This is someone's son." Like- like h- We've- we've gotten away from that and like- like s- the- the, you know, the old art that- that I was always told to live by is treat someone as you'd wanna be treated yourself and if you were in those shoes. And every time I pass somebody, every time I see somebody suffering, I always look at that and be like, "Well, what would I want somebody to do if they see my daughter suffering or my son suffering?" Right?
22. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
23. DMDakota Meyer
  I mean, look at all these times that I see these people holding their video cameras up and they're videoing somebody like, getting just beat. And it's like, well, how do you do that and not help? How does that not just suck everything out of you to not wanna do something?
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. There's a thing called diffusion of responsibility that happens to people in crowds, unfortunately. And it's also the same thing that I think when you're filming something that's happening in real life, it's the same thing that you see in these video games and on television shows. I mean, we- we have never had more violence in film form and in video game form ever.
25. DMDakota Meyer
  Ever.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  But yet we've never had less violence violence. Like, how many people who play these games that have seen people get shot over and over and over and over again have never seen a body? Never seen anybody get severely wounded or shot?
27. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  And so to them, getting shot and shooting people is always, uh, it's almost like empty.
29. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  It's like bang, bang, bang. There's a guy, he comes out of the bushes. Bang, bang, bang, you shoot him. Here comes this guy. Bang, bang, bang, you shoot him. And it doesn't feel like anything. And then you shut it off and you have a sandwich, and then you turn it on again, you do it again.
17:36 – 25:42
Violence is acceptable, sex is taboo: the culture contradiction (plus hunting/vegan tangents)
1. JRJoe Rogan
  But yet you don't show sex. Like you could show people's brains exploding-
2. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... but if you showed a girl's pussy and a penis going inside of it, people would, "Aah!"
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Oh yeah, that's- (laughs)
5. JRJoe Rogan
  "Get that off the air."
6. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs)
7. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs) The one thing that doesn't hurt anybody that everybody wants-
8. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
9. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that would be horrific to show. Like if you had a- a film with, uh, you know, uh, uh, Brad Pitt and, um... Give me a hot woman actress, Jamie. You know hot women actresses. Who's one? Scarlett Johansson. Okay.
10. DMDakota Meyer
  That's right.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Scarlett Johansson and Brad Pitt have a sex scene and they actually fucking get after it.
12. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  And you- you see it and you see her feet up in the air and you see them-
14. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs)
15. JRJoe Rogan
  You'd be like, "What are we watching?"
16. DMDakota Meyer
  Oh yeah.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  "This is crazy." But yet you could see Brad Pitt, spoiler alert, if you see that, uh, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Is that the name of it? The Quentin Tarantino. He beats a woman to death smashing her face against a mantel of a fucking fireplace. And you're like, "Holy fuck."And that's okay.
18. DMDakota Meyer
  That's okay.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  That's okay.
20. DMDakota Meyer
  That's okay.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  But just fucking, "Doge, doge."
22. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah. (laughs)
23. JRJoe Rogan
  And you're like, "Whoa." That's fine.
24. DMDakota Meyer
  No, that's fine.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  That's fine. But if he-
26. DMDakota Meyer
  That's fine. Yeah.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... fucks Char- Scarlett Johansson and you saw her asshole, you'd be like, "What?"
28. DMDakota Meyer
  Oh. (laughs)
29. JRJoe Rogan
  "I see her actual asshole. This is crazy. Get this off. You should go to jail."
30. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs)
25:42 – 28:26
Reframing “problems” as inconveniences: gratitude, perspective, and the lens of life
1. DMDakota Meyer
  Well, I mean, but I mean, h- how, how, how do you wake up when all you do is focus on problems, right? Like, it's kinda like, you know, w- when you're, when you're working or you're, you're at a job, right, or you own a company. Like, everybody's... Y- you're always just fixing... I call it putting out fires.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
3. DMDakota Meyer
  And if that's all you do is constantly put out fires, like at, at what point do you become grateful? Like, like at what point, at what point of the day do people stop and look around-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
5. DMDakota Meyer
  ... and they're grateful for what they have and they're appreciative of... I had a guy tell me, you know, when I was going through my divorce, I mean, I was a, I was a train wreck. Just call Tim Kennedy and he'll tell you.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
7. DMDakota Meyer
  Um, (smacks lips) you know, I'll never forget, a guy sat me down. I was talking about all these problems and just nit- I mean, just nitpicking and fighting over the small stuff. And I mean, literally just, "Well, she worded it this way and she needs to do it this way." Like, literally just every little thing. And the guy finally sat me down and he looked at me and he goes, "Look, Dakota." He said, "If you can make choices or decisions to change it, then it's not a problem, it's an inconvenience. The day that you can't make a choice, you've got cancer, your kid's sick or something like that," he goes, "that's the day you got problems. Until then, you just got inconveniences."
8. JRJoe Rogan
  That's a great way to look at it.
9. DMDakota Meyer
  "Until then, you just got inconveniences." And I was like, "You're right."
10. JRJoe Rogan
  It's a great way to look at it, because there's levels of problems, right? There's insurmountable problems, cancer, injuries, things th- things of that nature, car accidents.
11. DMDakota Meyer
  Absolutely. Car accidents.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Insurmountable.
13. DMDakota Meyer
  And you know what?
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
15. DMDakota Meyer
  And the thing is, and I, I think, you know, the... I, I think I'm so fortunate to, to have gone through the experiences that I have, um, because I, you know, each one of them, it, it, it, it's all perspective. It changes my perspective on the way I look at things. It changes the things that are important to me. I call it, uh, um... I always call it, everybody's got their lens of life. And that lens of life, you know, your lens of life looks different than mine. Mine looks different than yours. And, and it all... We all ha- have our own lens of life. And at the point, you know, we get so focused and get into autopilot, and it'll focus on... You know, it's kinda like your camera. You pull it up and you got it on auto focus. It never focuses on what you want it focused on, right, until you go back to the manual focus and you push where it's at. And I feel like all these problems that we have are, are just made to, "Hey, we need to tighten our lens back up to focus on what really, really, really matters."
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Well, I think sometimes people need to hear it from someone like you-
17. DMDakota Meyer
  Oh, yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  ... or someone like Jocko or... You know, the, the, the beautiful thing about these podcasts is that you get to hear people's perspective-
19. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and a lot of them are eye-opening. You know, they, they, they're... They literally could change the world, because they change the way you behave-
21. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and you interact with people when you listen to it.
23. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  And that podcast that you did with Jocko, when I was listening to it, I mean, it changed my whole day. It changed like how I was gonna look at my day.
25. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  I was, you know... Instead of like looking at my day like, "Oh, it's a normal day," I was thinking, "God damn, I'm lucky."
27. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
28:26 – 36:26
September 8, 2009: chaos, moral complexity, and engaging the enemy up close
1. JRJoe Rogan
  "God damn, I'm lucky." And, "God damn, imagine experiencing what you..." And how old were you at the time?
2. DMDakota Meyer
  I was 21.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  21 years old.
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  And experiencing what you experienced in that insane firefight, being locked down. And I mean, how many guys did you wind up engaging with?
6. DMDakota Meyer
  I, I don't know. I, you know... I, I don't know. I mean, uh, everyone that I got an opportunity with, right? And it just, you know... It was just a, a... You know, it was so chaotic. I mean, I, you know, I still... I, I... Look, I, I think about it all the time, obviously. Um, it's something I could have never experienced. I mean, I trained for war every single day when I was in the Marine Corps. I mean, it was what I s- (laughs) it was what my job was. And I still could have never imagined that day the way it was or anything to turn out. I could have never pictured it. I could have never... A- a- and, and I think every day that goes by, I think there's a reckoning of it, right? The way that I seen it that day is not the way I see it today. And, um, I think that comes with, you know, just, just sharpening and just your bo- You know, you change and you, you see different things in perspective. But yeah, I mean, you know, I'd, I, I, you know... That day, I mean, it still... I mean, it still is just, you know, just... I- it just... There's so many lessons that come from that day that, that... You know, I look at people complaining about stuff here in America and it's like, you know, I seen in one day the best of humans, the worst of humans. And everybody... Nobody thought they were wrong. And it's possib- You know, it's just, it's just one of those deals of, of... You know, that, that day was just-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  That's an important point, what you just said. "Nobody thought they were wrong." Not them, not you.
8. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah. You know, I, I, i- But... And it changed me that day. Like, I walked in there that day and I was the guy who was cocky, who would tell you, you know, "I love fighting." Do you know what I mean? Like, "I, like, I just wanna go fight." Like, you know, but ev- every fight I had before that, it was like, th- You know, I always had airplanes sitting, you know, o- or heli- helicopters sitting, sitting around. I always had... You know, uh, it was like, "I'm gonna go in there and start the fight, and then I'm gonna call in all this other, this other stuff to, to, to win, right?" And, um, that day it wasn't there and, and, and literally I, I walked out of there and, and, um...... I, I just think about all the time today, I just think about all the time of how many generations just that day were changed, how many generations of, of people's lives were changed. You know, all my teammates died, so they'll never have kids. That generation's s- stopped. Their families forever ex- you know, so many lives were changed that day by that, that, that piece. And guess what? And everybody in America had no clue it was going on. Like, right now there are US troops, somebody wondering if they're gonna be able to come home and see their family again. That's reality. Whether you wanna ignore it or not, like, that's reality. And that was me September 8th, 2009. And it was just a... Gosh, it was a chaotic day.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  It's amazing how you could have, uh, thousands of days in your life and one day changes the way you look at everything.
10. DMDakota Meyer
  One day changes the way you look at everything. And, you know, in like, the, the further I go on, I, I, I look at it different, you know? I, I always talk about the story of, um... you know, whenever s- this guy came up behind me and, and I ended up, I ended up killing him with a rock. And I always remember just, like, I remember it, like, I see it every night, like, I remember, like, I just see his face. And like, I just... 'Cause there was a point, there was a point that I, I, I feel like that anybody that, when they... whether they're injured or anything, like, they realize they're defeated. Like, they're... Like, it... Like, y- I don't know. I, I just think there's a point when you look at somebody and they know they're gonna die. And I'll never forget that. And I, you know, now I look at it and I see it, and I always think that, like, uh, this guy is a son to somebody. His mother and father are gonna miss him. This guy, he believes in his cause as much as I do. He doesn't believe he's wrong. Th- this guy, this guy, he, he could have had a wife or kids that are never gonna see their father again, just like, you know, m- my dad might have never seen me again if it was switched. And really, I don't even know th- I don't hate him. I don't even know this guy. (laughs) We're just here at this place right now because we were born in two different countries.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Were you out of weapons? Were you out of, out of ammo?
12. DMDakota Meyer
  N- uh, so my... No, he had came up and he started choking me. Um, I had shot him once before, and he... I was trying to pick my buddy, Daouda Lee. My, my, my, one of my closest Afghans, Daouda Lee, had been shot. He, he had got kil- he had been killed. And I came around this terrace to get him, and I was on my knee, and this guy came up behind me. And, um...
13. JRJoe Rogan
  So he didn't have a weapon either. He was trying-
14. DMDakota Meyer
  No, he did. He, he had a weapon, and I ended up shooting him from the ground, and I thought he was dead when he fell on the ground. And I kind of moved down and got down with Daouda Lee 'cause we, I was still getting shot at from this machine gun up on this hill, and I was trying to make myself small as I could. And, um, this guy ends up coming up and choking me. Like, I thought he was d- I thought he was dead. And he ends up choking me out. He starts trying to choke me out, and eventually let up a little bit. And I ended up getting around him, and I just got... We were fighting back and forth, and I can remember all I was thinking about was like, "Don't let his legs get on me." Like, you know, these guys, their legs are... I mean, they've been crawling up mountains their whole life. And he was a, he was a pretty big dude. And, um, I just remember getting on top of him, finally got on top of him, and I ended up... I, I was rolling on top of him. He didn't have all the gear on I did, and, um, I ended up... I remember getting on top of him, like, like, I was straddling him, and I'm just reaching up trying to grab for anything I can. And I'm holding him, and, uh, holding him down with my thr- with my, my forearm, and I'm just grabbing anything I can. And finally, I ended up grabbing a rock, and I just started beating this dude's face in. And I just started beating and beating and beating, and I remember, I remember just like, finally, after hitting him, you know, I don't know, three or four times, four or five times, whatever, I remember him, like, finally just kind of looking at me and like, just, it's, it's like, he's like just, um, just looking at me in the eyes, like, obviously closer than me to you right now. And you just see all the... You can tell, like, he knows where this is going. And I always think about that, you know. Um, obviously, I would kill him a million times over again, right? He, he was the enemy. (laughs) Like, I don't feel as bad about that part of it. But I just think about, like, in that moment, if I can find a way to relate to him in that moment, a man I'm taking his life, we all in America can find a way to connect with each other. If we don't connect with each other, it's 'cause we choose not to. I don't care what your differences are. Like, don't... Like, find a reason of why we can get along, not why we should not get along.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
16. DMDakota Meyer
  And, and I, I always think about that moment, you know, of this guy. And, you know, he- obviously he ended up dying, and, and, and what it showed me was, is that no cause that you have that's built on hate will survive. I didn't hate this guy. I didn't even know him, but I was willing to, to take his life because of what I loved. And that's what, that's what we have to build our lives and our foundation on, is not, not being angry and hating each other, but because we love the cause that we believe in so much. Does that make sense?
36:26 – 50:56
Taliban goals, local coercion, and why Dakota thinks conflict won’t “end”
1. JRJoe Rogan
  It does make sense. I understand what you're saying. The way they look at it in Afghanistan, this, uh... So it's... Is it Al-Qaeda or the Taliban?
2. DMDakota Meyer
  So Al-Qaeda's (sighs) , uh, mainly in... So Al-Qaeda was in Iraq, um-
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Al-Q- So, Al-Qaeda is the issue that's in Iraq, and the Taliban is the issue-
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Taliban, Afghanistan.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that's in Afghanistan. And the Taliban-What are they trying to do? Are they trying to run a religious caliphate?
6. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they just want, they, you know, they wanna run, you know, it the way that they want to, right? Like, they wanna, they don't want, they don't believe in, you know, women being educated. They... I mean, they don't believe in any, like, like, they don't believe in... You know, they go back to that, their beliefs of, you know, it's driven by religion of, of all that control. They want the c- they want the control.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  And how much support do they have from the general population?
8. DMDakota Meyer
  I mean, I think, (sighs) it- I- not, not necessarily the support, but... because I think that... It's not necessarily support, it's the power that they have, right? Like, they come in and, and they lead with a heavy hand, right? I mean, there's, these... They don't... These, these, these... The locals run the place, but the Taliban is kind of like... look at it like a gang, right? Like kind of like a, a, like, like a, a mob or, or, or, or, or-
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Okay.
10. DMDakota Meyer
  ... or like, um... The Taliban is kind of like, um, the cartel, right? Um, and so that's, that's where they come from and they try to lead with violence and same thing that you would, you know, you would see with the cartel. The Taliban is kind of like an over-... a, a big cartel.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  And so the general pop- the population, they would like that to not be the case?
12. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah, I mean, they-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  I mean, they want a, a system of democracy similar to what we have?
14. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs) I mean, I don't know if they want that, but I, I don't think-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  They want something better than what they have.
16. DMDakota Meyer
  They... Of course. Like, I mean, I think they all see that they live in shitholes, right?
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Right.
18. DMDakota Meyer
  They all see... You know, I, I think that they, they, they know what could get... you know, how it could be better and how life could be better, you know?
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
20. DMDakota Meyer
  Um, the cool thing about America is, is that we know what freedom is. And I promise you this, like, you want to have all the differences stop? If anybody ever invaded us, I mean, people don't wanna give anything up (laughs) so they would all start fight... Everybody would get on the same page and start fighting if anybody tried to come to America because nobody would want to give up their stuff.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, post-9/11. Do you remember that... what, what... That was... You were a younger guy at the time.
22. DMDakota Meyer
  I r-
23. JRJoe Rogan
  How old were you at 9/11 there?
24. DMDakota Meyer
  I was in eighth grade, and I always say, "I would never wish for another 9/11, but I would give anything for a 9/12."
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
26. DMDakota Meyer
  I would give anything for a 9/12.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  It was crazy. Like, people were friendly. People were, were letting people in in traffic. People had... Like, American flags were everywhere.
28. DMDakota Meyer
  Everywhere. Everywhere. People were proud of America. Like, yeah, it wa- it was, it was crazy. It was crazy-
29. JRJoe Rogan
  It was-
30. DMDakota Meyer
  ... like how on, i- in sync everybody was.
50:56 – 53:01
An all-volunteer military, why people enlist, and Dakota’s unlikely start at 17
1. JRJoe Rogan
  It is incredible. You, when you signed up, how old were you?
2. DMDakota Meyer
  17.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  You were 17? Wow.
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Had my 18th birthday in boot camp.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  No shit.
6. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow, so you can do that? I didn't know, I didn't know you-
8. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  I thought you had to be 18.
10. DMDakota Meyer
  No.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
12. DMDakota Meyer
  No, I, I graduated high school at 17 and my dad signed for me.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Wo- oh, someone can sign for you?
14. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow. And did you have any other aspirations, or was that something that you knew you were gonna do?
16. DMDakota Meyer
  No. I, like honestly, a Marine recruiter ch- told me I'd never make it as a Marine. And so, like-
17. JRJoe Rogan
  What? (laughs)
18. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, like I was just walking through-
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Boy, was he fucking wrong. (laughs)
20. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs) Yeah. Well, yeah, he told me, I was walking through my lunchroom, like I, I, I mean, I don't have any cool stories like, "Oh, I woke up and knew I was gonna be a Marine." Like, you know, I, I, I was walking through the lunchroom and, and this Marine recruiter was there. I started asking him a lot of smart alec- smart aleck questions and just, you know, being a typical high school student, and he's like, "Look, you're wasting my time. You'd never make it as a Marine." And, uh, you know, look, I, I was up for the challenge, so I, I signed up that day.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  So, him saying that was what really stirred it?
22. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah, that was it.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
24. DMDakota Meyer
  I didn't even really know what the Marine Corps was before that. (laughs)
25. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
26. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs) Yeah. It's terrible.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  W- what did you think you were signing up for?
28. DMDakota Meyer
  (laughs) Uh, you know, I just told him I wanted to go fight.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
30. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah. Yeah, holy smokes. You know, but you think about that, like our whole life is built off decisions, you know, our decisions-
53:01 – 1:08:05
Living with PTSD and anxiety: family triggers, stigma, and the limits of the VA approach
1. JRJoe Rogan
  And you are here now 10 years after what we were talking about-
2. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  ... and you said it still keeps you up.
4. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah. I mean, I wake up, you know, a cou- couple, a couple nights a month and just, you know, an anxiety attack, throwing up. Um, I was actually speaking last week, I was on the road, it's the first time, you know, I, I always, like I'm always nervous, like if in the middle of the night my daughter gets scared or she, you know, she comes down and gets in, in my bed, like I'm always really, like nervous about that because, like I don't, I would like, ih- like it was so, I was so nervous about it, because I was just, gosh, I never want them to see me in that, in that, that state, right? And the other day we were on the road, I was speaking out in North Carolina and, um, she was obviously, we were in a hotel so she was staying with me, and I, I don't know, I di- I didn't feel good that night, so what I did is I put a, um, I put a pillow between us and, gosh, I had, I had one. I knocked my tooth off, my, I knocked my veneer off, like it was so terrible. And, uh, she just looked at me, she's three, and she just looked at me and she said, "It's okay, daddy. You're not, you're not a bad dad."
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
6. DMDakota Meyer
  And, uh-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  At three?
8. DMDakota Meyer
  At three. And I was like, "Gosh." You know? Uh, but yeah, I mean, you, you know, you still, I mean, this is, that's, that's why you look at it and I see these people who, who play these video games and they, they get nothing from, like they- there's no emotional attachment to it, and it's like this stuff's real. Like, there's nobody who I- would go out on a, on a limb and say there's n- nobody who sees this stuff and, and they don't, you don't come back and deal with it. Like it's, it's a normal process to, to being part of not normal situations.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  What kind of resources are available to you when you do come back? Like how, how do they treat people that are-
10. DMDakota Meyer
  Mm-hmm.
11. JRJoe Rogan
  ... suffering from PTSD and-
12. DMDakota Meyer
  Well, you gotta be careful with it, right? Because, I...... I mean, the, the last track you wanna get on is, is all the, the pharmaceutical drugs, right? Like, the pills and stuff. Um, and you'll get on that real quick. The VA is notorious for it. So, you know, w- we-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  What do they try to give you?
14. DMDakota Meyer
  Um, I mean, I've... Klonopin, Xanax. I've been on tons of blood pressure medicine. I mean, y- you go down the list, right? And, uh, and I w- I... Like, I went down that, I went down that road and, and it got me nowhere. Um, but now, you know, like, we're... You know, there's tons of non-profits out there who are doing a lot of great stuff, uh, trying, trying to help out. Um, t- you know, we're... There's one thing that we found out and then... And actually studies are starting to show that this helps is, uh, it's called a stellate, stellate gang- ganglion block. It's called SGB, it's a stellate ganglion block. And, um, you get a shot. It goes in your neck. Um, and I'll tell you this, like, when I got that shot, it instantly before the needle came out of my neck... Dr. Sean Mulvaney is the guy that's, that's, that's putting all this together. When the needle came out of my neck, it instantly took me from being d-... Like, like, my whole life was downtown New York City in rush hour traffic, 15 minutes late to a meeting that my life depended on, to instantly being driving down a quiet country road with nowhere to be.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
16. DMDakota Meyer
  Instantly.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Instantly. What is it doing?
18. DMDakota Meyer
  So, basically what it does is, is, is... This is how it was described to me. And you have, like, two systems. You have, like, your, your, your automatic nervous system and then you have your manual, right? So, your automatic is like, your eyes blinking, breathing, things like that. Your manual is like, "Hey, I need to reach over here and grab this bottle of water." And what happens is, is fight or flight gets stuck in your automated. Like, it... There's no longer do you say, "I recognize this as a threat," and now I go into fight or flight. So, what it does is you've been in that so long that it p- gets put over into the, the automatic side. And so what this does is it's kinda like a restart. Like, it, it... (laughs) There's no, nothing that lasts long in it. It, it goes in and it, it basically, uh, I think it gets on... It's called the sciatic nerve, and it basically gives you a restart and it just... I- it took away all my anxie-... I mean, it, it, it just... It instantly, like, just melted it away.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  How long does it last?
20. DMDakota Meyer
  So, it comes down to, I mean, s- sometimes I get one, one a year, one every six months, but it just comes down to h-... Do you go back and expose yourself to these chaotic situations, right? Like, do you go f-... Keep making bad decisions? Um, but for me, I look at it as, like, a... It's a, it's a solution to, to... I call it the flashbang of anxiety. So, like, it's that flashbang that gives you the moment, the separation to where now I can make decisions that I don't feel like I'm out of control.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
22. DMDakota Meyer
  Now I can, I can make decisions to get, get things back together.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  What is the actual chemical that they're using?
24. DMDakota Meyer
  I don't know. I would have to look. He's got it.
25. JVJamie Vernon
  I've seen an article about it.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  That's crazy that it's so effective. Using stellate ganglion block to treat post-traumatic stress disorder.
27. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Okay, make that a little bigger, Jamie. Post-traumatic stress disorder develops in response to being exposed to extreme stress. ♪ Do, do, do, do, do, do, do. ♪ Okay, the sympathetic nervous system fight or flight has been known to play a part in PTSD. It's believed that extra nerves of the system sprout or grow after extreme trauma. Wow. Leading to elevated letels-... Levels of norepinephrine, an adrenaline-like substance which in turn over-activates the amygdala, the fear center of the brain. This chain of events results in PTSD symptoms that may be... That may persist for years. Um, so part of the sympathetic nervous system called the stellate ganglion, a collective nerves in the neck, seems to control the activation of the amygdala. A recent innovation offers potential in rapidly treating symptoms of PTSD for a prolonged period of time. Placing an anesthetic agent on the stellate ganglion in an anesthetic procedure called the stellate ganglion block can relieve the symptoms of PTSD in as little as 30 minutes. And for you it's, uh, just a few seconds.
29. JVJamie Vernon
  Before the needle is out.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  And lasts for years. The SGB reboots the sympathetic nervous system to its pre-trauma state, similar to a computer reboot in the brain. Norepinephrine levels are rapidly reduced and the extra nerve growth is removed. Wow. SGB is an anesthetic procedure that has been performed since 1925 and is considered a low risk pain procedure done under x-ray guidance. That's insane.
1:08:05 – 1:11:52
Breakthrough treatment: Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) and rebuilding stability
1. DMDakota Meyer
  And, um, I also use, so I use, I use three methods to maintain all of it. I use, uh, the stilanglium block, which is, it's kind of when it gets real bad, I'll go get that. That's like the whole reboot, right? Um, for maintenance I usually use, it's called an Alpha Stem. And so, it goes on your ear lobes.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, I've heard of that.
3. DMDakota Meyer
  And, uh-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  People quit smoking with that, right?
5. DMDakota Meyer
  I don't know about, I don't know about that. It's for, usually for pain, anxiety, depression. Um, but I use, I use an Alpha Stem and it goes... I put it on, clip it on my ears and it like, I usually do it every day and it just, it melts, it melts it away as well. And then the last piece is, is... And this is not obviously in, in our community, it's probably not the popular side of it, is, is, um, is using a, a pen at night, you know, before I go to bed.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  A vape pen?
7. DMDakota Meyer
  Uh, yeah.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
9. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Do you use CBD?
11. DMDakota Meyer
  Uh, so it's w- it's the, it's the, uh, I think it's an Indica.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
13. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah. And that, like, that pretty much eliminated all my drinking.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Really?
15. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Why is that not popular?
17. DMDakota Meyer
  I don't know. I think it's kinda like still like the taboo, right? Like, the town I come from, they just made alcohol legal in it-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  What?
19. DMDakota Meyer
  ... a few years ago. (laughs)
20. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
21. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  What town are you from, man?
23. DMDakota Meyer
  Uh, Kentu- Columbia, Kentucky.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  That's crazy.
25. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  They just made alcohol legal?
27. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
29. DMDakota Meyer
  Yeah.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  That's a good place to study. That's like an uncontacted tribe.

Episode duration: 2:08:27

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Connecting through Jocko’s interview and the intensity of combat storytelling

“Land of the free” and what civilians miss about military sacrifice

Afghan partners, shared brotherhood, and grief beyond national lines

Why the U.S. is in Afghanistan/Iraq (as Dakota saw it): fighting alongside, not against

America, opportunity, and a culture drifting into victimhood and desensitization

Violence is acceptable, sex is taboo: the culture contradiction (plus hunting/vegan tangents)

Reframing “problems” as inconveniences: gratitude, perspective, and the lens of life

September 8, 2009: chaos, moral complexity, and engaging the enemy up close

Taliban goals, local coercion, and why Dakota thinks conflict won’t “end”

An all-volunteer military, why people enlist, and Dakota’s unlikely start at 17

Living with PTSD and anxiety: family triggers, stigma, and the limits of the VA approach

Breakthrough treatment: Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) and rebuilding stability

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