Joe Rogan Experience #1369 - Christopher Ryan

Joe Rogan 0:03 And now, the official hello. Hello, Chris Ryan.

Christopher Ryan 0:06 Hello, officially.

Joe Rogan 0:07 What's going on, buddy? How are you?

Christopher Ryan 0:08 Everything. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:09 You distinguished-looking motherfucker. Am I distinguished? Oh, that's- What, what do you think is going on with the, the goatee, the whole deal?

Christopher Ryan 0:13 Yeah, it comes and goes. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 0:15 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 0:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:16 What have you been up to, man? I've been following your Instagram chronicles. You-

Christopher Ryan 0:19 Have you?

Joe Rogan 0:20 You, you, yeah. You're traveling the world in a van. What are you doing? (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 0:22 Vanthropology, I call it. It's the vanthropology tour. Yeah. Yeah, I love it, man. It's like, uh, you know, you and I have probably spoken about in my 20s, I backpacked all over the world.

Joe Rogan 0:32 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 0:33 Hitchhiked to Alaska a couple times and, you know, did all these adventures. A Sprinter van that you have a bed in and a cooler and a freezer, that's kinda like a backpack for a older, slightly richer dude.

Joe Rogan 0:45 (laughs) Right.

Christopher Ryan 0:46 You know, that's, that's how I look at it. 'Cause you have everything you need with you.

Joe Rogan 0:49 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 0:50 Which is a feeling I love. I love just being able to say, "You know what? I'm tired. I'm gonna pull over and sleep right here. And before I do, I'm gonna have a couple of beers and listen to some music." And, you know, it's like everything I need-

Joe Rogan 1:01 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:01 ... is right here.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Right. Can you ... What, what is the deal with pulling over in a S- a Sprinter van and drinking? Are there a lot ... You know, like, you're not even allowed to be drunk in the backseat of your own car. You know that?

Christopher Ryan 1:12 Yeah, I believe uh, uh, if you have a, a bed, it's considered a domicile.

Joe Rogan 1:17 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 1:18 That's what I've been told. I'm not a legal expert, but-

Joe Rogan 1:21 Huh.

Christopher Ryan 1:21 ... my understanding is that, uh, the front two seats are considered the vehicle, but beyond that, in the back where you have the bed and the, all the stuff-

Joe Rogan 1:30 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:30 ... that's considered your house.

Joe Rogan 1:32 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 1:32 So, a warrant to search is, is the same as, uh, someone coming into your house.

Joe Rogan 1:38 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 1:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:39 'Cause I, I know a dude who got in trouble because he was drunk in the backseat of his car 'cause he knew he was drunk and so he was like, "I'm not fucking driving. I'm just gonna sleep it off." And he laid down in the backseat of his car, and the cops knocked on the door, and, uh, he opened up the door and he said, "Yeah, I'm drunk, and I'm sleeping off." They arrested him.

Christopher Ryan 1:56 That's bullshit.

Joe Rogan 1:57 Yeah. Well, you know ... Uh, we- uh, co- some cops, they feel like they have to make a certain number of arrests. You know, some places have-

Christopher Ryan 2:07 Quotas?

Joe Rogan 2:08 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 2:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:08 Which is w- ... I've always thought that was so strange. Like, what happens if no one commits crimes? What do they do about the quotas? Do they just make up crimes?

Christopher Ryan 2:16 And how do they fill those prisons-

Joe Rogan 2:18 Right.

Christopher Ryan 2:18 ... that are, you know, dependent upon 98% occupancy rate?

Joe Rogan 2:22 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 2:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 2:22 They just assume that there's gonna be a certain amount of people that fuck up. Like, what happens if something happens? Some ... I mean, I don't know what it would be, other than a mass consumption of mushrooms across the entire population.

Christopher Ryan 2:38 Oh, if people just stop breaking laws?

Joe Rogan 2:38 Yeah. Yeah, people just stop.

Christopher Ryan 2:40 They'll just pass the law ... I mean, every one of us breaks several laws every day, right? Like, there are laws we don't even know exist that we're breaking.

Joe Rogan 2:47 Like, what kinda laws do you think?

Christopher Ryan 2:49 Oh, God, I don't ... I read an article about this years ago. Um, I- I- t- sh- I, I'd be hard-pressed to, to give you examples right now, but I'm sure there are financial laws. I mean, we're all cheating on our taxes. (laughs) Not me, not me.

Joe Rogan 3:04 Not me.

Christopher Ryan 3:04 But e- but everyone I know, except for Joe.

Joe Rogan 3:06 I, well, I hand my, hand mine off to accountants.

Christopher Ryan 3:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:09 So they don't, they don't handle that at all.

Christopher Ryan 3:10 But I mean, cutting corners, you know?

Joe Rogan 3:13 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 3:13 We're all cutting corners. I've, I ran two yellow lights on my way here, I'm sure.

Joe Rogan 3:17 Whoo.

Christopher Ryan 3:18 I probably, you know, was four miles per hour over the speed limit.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Hmm, so that's how they get you.

Christopher Ryan 3:23 Yeah. I mean, that-

Joe Rogan 3:23 But what about autonomous vehicles?

Christopher Ryan 3:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:26 Once that kicks into gear, that's gonna be real interesting-

Christopher Ryan 3:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:28 ... when no one's ever breaking the speed limit. What do they do? What is this, Jamie? Six laws you've broken-

Christopher Ryan 3:33 There you go.

Joe Rogan 3:33 ... without realizing it.

Christopher Ryan 3:34 Jamie-

Joe Rogan 3:34 Cracked.

Christopher Ryan 3:34 ... you're the best man.

Joe Rogan 3:36 Cracked.com always has great articles like this. So what does it say? What do we got here?

Christopher Ryan 3:41 Connecting to unsecure WiFi networks, that's against the law?

Joe Rogan 3:44 That's against the law? What? What?

Christopher Ryan 3:45 There you go.

Joe Rogan 3:46 So if you go to Starbucks and it's an unsecure, or the airport, that's ...

Jamie Vernon 3:50 There you go. Those are open for that purpose, but, like, if someone a- li- your neighbor leaves theirs on open, I'm think that's what it's saying right here.

Joe Rogan 3:56 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 3:57 Oh, I see.

Joe Rogan 3:57 Why don't do that?

Jamie Vernon 3:58 WiFi squatting.

Christopher Ryan 4:00 What about every time you click on one of ... You update some software and you click agree, I have read and agree to this?

Joe Rogan 4:06 Right.

Christopher Ryan 4:06 You didn't read that shit. Nobody reads it.

Joe Rogan 4:08 Well, that was one of the things that Snowden talked about yesterday.

Christopher Ryan 4:10 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:11 Yeah, about the terms and conditions-

Christopher Ryan 4:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 4:14 ... that you, you accept, that-

Christopher Ryan 4:15 And who knows what's in there-

Joe Rogan 4:16 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 4:16 ... that then you're not complying with, you know?

Joe Rogan 4:19 But you'd have to have a lawyer go over every piece of it, and then a lot of it is open to interpretation, and they can-

Christopher Ryan 4:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 4:25 ... change it at a moment's notice.

Christopher Ryan 4:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 4:26 One of the things that you see in terms and conditions is they have the ability to change it without notice, which is like, what ... You know?

Christopher Ryan 4:33 (laughs)

Jamie Vernon 4:33 Get that-

Joe Rogan 4:34 Sam Harris had a great podcast with, uh, this guy who was an expert in data collection. He was talking about what's actually happening now is that we have ... There's a commodity, and that commodity is data, and we didn't know it was a commodity.

Christopher Ryan 4:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 4:49 And then all of a sudden, these companies like Facebook and Google made billions and billions of dollars off of this commodity that we didn't even know we were giving up.

Christopher Ryan 4:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:57 And we didn't know that they had it. We didn't know it was valuable. And then, you know, this is their-

Christopher Ryan 5:02 And there's no way to protect it.

Joe Rogan 5:03 And it's their business model. Their business model is ... And then th- also their business model is tricking you into clicking on things by getting you outraged. So they're consistently-

Christopher Ryan 5:12 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:12 ... bringing up things, whether it's, you know, Trump or abortion or what- whatever it is that, like, gets you riled up, that outrage algorithm-

Christopher Ryan 5:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:21 ... is gonna find your little soft spot.

Christopher Ryan 5:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:24 No, goddammit.

Christopher Ryan 5:25 I saw you just posted something on that recently-

Joe Rogan 5:27 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 5:27 ... on Twitter. Uh-

Joe Rogan 5:28 A Facebook thing.

Christopher Ryan 5:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:29 Yeah, on Facebook.

Christopher Ryan 5:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:30 Yeah, there was an argument that Facebook is the, the ... What it is, is an, an, an algorithm that's designed to find outrage. So it's not-

Christopher Ryan 5:38 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:38 ... free speech.

Christopher Ryan 5:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:39 And it's just an out- uh, outrage accelerometer or something.

Christopher Ryan 5:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:43 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 5:43 Well, you think about even, you know, that goes back to William Randolph Hearst, you know?

Joe Rogan 5:47 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 5:47 Saying like, y- y- you know, "I'll, uh, I'll give you the war," you know? "I'll ... You give me the war, I'll sell the papers and, and get the public behind it-"

Joe Rogan 5:57 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 5:57 "... 'cause it's good business."

Joe Rogan 5:58 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 5:59 Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, it's an interesting world, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 6:02 It is.

Christopher Ryan 6:02 Was that ... Were you talking about Tristan Harris? Was that the guy on Sam Harris's podcast, the ethicist?

Joe Rogan 6:08 I d- I do not know. I don't, I don't remember his name.

Christopher Ryan 6:10 I heard him on Sam Harris's podcast. Uh, he was a ... I think he has a PhD in computer science and philosophy.

Joe Rogan 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 6:17 And he worked at Google as their, like, in-house ...... ethicist, and then he quit because it's, like-

Joe Rogan 6:23 There's no such job (laughs) .

Christopher Ryan 6:24 ... don't be evil. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:25 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 6:25 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 6:26 They stopped having that. Don't be evil-

Christopher Ryan 6:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:27 ... doesn't exist anymore.

Christopher Ryan 6:28 It doesn't exist, exactly. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:29 How crazy is that when you have that and you go-

Christopher Ryan 6:31 Eh.

Joe Rogan 6:31 ... "Ah, let's get rid of that." (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 6:32 Eh, you can be evil.

Joe Rogan 6:33 (laughs) What a weird thing to both have and then weirder still-

Christopher Ryan 6:38 But-

Joe Rogan 6:38 ... to remove.

Christopher Ryan 6:39 Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get a marriage contract that has that clause in it where you can update it without notification.

Joe Rogan 6:46 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 6:46 You know?

Joe Rogan 6:46 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 6:47 Just get that in there. Have your lawyer slip that into the pre-nup.

Joe Rogan 6:49 Yeah. At any moment, you could bail-

Christopher Ryan 6:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:51 ... and it's fine.

Christopher Ryan 6:52 Or bail or just change the terms.

Joe Rogan 6:53 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 6:54 You know? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's a strange world, Joe. That's why I like being in my van, keep things simple.

Joe Rogan 7:01 Well, humans are strange creatures, you know? And we vary so widely that in, you know, trying to make any sense of putting 300 million of us together on a is- an island essentially.

Christopher Ryan 7:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:13 Like, good luck with that. (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 7:15 I... And we vary not only individually, but I think we vary, uh... We become different creatures in different conditions.

Joe Rogan 7:24 Sure.

Christopher Ryan 7:24 So people sometimes will ask me, like, "What's your... You know, what is human nature? What's your opinion, you know, based on these books?" And I say it's like asking what's the natural state of H2O?

Joe Rogan 7:34 (laughs) Right.

Christopher Ryan 7:35 Right?

Joe Rogan 7:35 Is it boiling? Is it ice?

Christopher Ryan 7:36 Exactly. What are the-

Joe Rogan 7:37 Right. Right.

Christopher Ryan 7:37 What's the pressure? What's the altitude?

Joe Rogan 7:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 7:39 And-

Joe Rogan 7:39 Don't you feel like you're different people with different people as well?

Christopher Ryan 7:43 Yeah. Yeah, I had a girlfriend, um, a Spanish... She was s- sh- her mother was French, her father was Catalan. She was raised in Spain and then lived in Miami, uh, when she was 13 to 15 or something. So she spoke English really well, Spanish, French, and Catalan perfectly, right? And we were living in San Francisco. And I was high. I was, I was smoking a joint. She was across the room talking to her mom on the phone in French. And then her mom put her dad on the phone, so she switched to Catalan. And, and I was just high enough that I noticed, like, "Wow, that's not Peggy talking two different languages," and then three 'cause she would, like, put her hand on the phone and say, "Ah, my mom said..." da, da, da. So English, French, Catalan. It's not Peggy speaking three languages. Those are three different Peggys.

Joe Rogan 8:34 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 8:34 She's different. Her facial tics and her movements and her body position changed depending on the language she was speaking, right? And at the time, I was in grad school, and, um, I thought, "This is like multiple personality disorder." So I started researching multiple personality, and I g- I sort of came up with this idea that language, in her case, because she learned them all when she was very young, reconfigures the brain in such a way that she actually has different identities in those languages.

Joe Rogan 9:08 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 9:08 And next time we were fucking, I started talking to her in Spanish and she freaked out. She-

Joe Rogan 9:14 She got at you?

Christopher Ryan 9:14 Yeah, she... (laughs) Like, like I was s- I was a stranger suddenly.

Joe Rogan 9:18 Whoa.

Christopher Ryan 9:18 Yeah. I wa- I just said s- I didn't... You know, I just said, like, "You're beautiful," or something. She's like, "Ah, get away." E- e- es muy guapa.

Joe Rogan 9:25 Wow.

Christopher Ryan 9:25 Eres muy guapa. Like, "Get away from me, you creep." Like-

Joe Rogan 9:28 We-

Christopher Ryan 9:28 'Cause our whole relationship had been in English.

Joe Rogan 9:31 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 9:31 Yeah. Yeah, it was strange. So anyway, so I looked into-

Joe Rogan 9:34 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 9:34 ... multiple personality disorder (laughs) . This story has everything. Uh, and y- I don't know if you, if you've checked that out.

Joe Rogan 9:41 No.

Christopher Ryan 9:41 You remember Stanley Krippner, my buddy-

Joe Rogan 9:43 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 9:43 ... who came down here at-

Joe Rogan 9:44 Sure.

Christopher Ryan 9:44 ... the podcast with you?

Joe Rogan 9:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 9:45 He, he had done a bunch of research on that, and, um, there was a movie called Sybil.

Joe Rogan 9:52 Yeah, I remember that.

Christopher Ryan 9:53 He was the consultant for that movie.

Joe Rogan 9:54 Ah.

Christopher Ryan 9:55 He was also a consultant for, uh, Rosemary's Baby, you remember that? The-

Joe Rogan 9:59 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 9:59 ... the possession?

Joe Rogan 10:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 10:00 Anyway, um-

Joe Rogan 10:01 That's a Polanski movie.

Christopher Ryan 10:02 I think so, yeah. Yeah, one of the early ones.

Joe Rogan 10:05 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 10:06 Um, people have... With multiple personality disorder, uh, the research is bizarre. It, it seems to indicate that people have different physiological states in the different personalities. So you could have a different baseline heart rate, blood pressure, uh, you know, these sort of-

Joe Rogan 10:27 Different baseline heart rate.

Christopher Ryan 10:28 Yeah, in the d- Different... Even, it's... Now this is dis- uh, I don't know how reliable this is, but I even read that some people have different, uh, ocular pressure, so that one personality needs reading glasses-

Joe Rogan 10:42 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 10:42 ... and another doesn't.

Joe Rogan 10:43 What?

Christopher Ryan 10:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:44 Oh my Go- How much is psychosomatic? Like really, like how, how much, how much of who you are and how you, how your body works is dependent upon the way your brain is, uh, uh-

Christopher Ryan 10:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:57 ... catching things?

Christopher Ryan 10:58 Right. Culture, language-

Joe Rogan 11:00 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 11:00 ... personal experience. I mean, it's all... Uh, your mood, how much you slept the night before-

Joe Rogan 11:06 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 11:06 ... you know, all these things, uh, tie into... Identity is something we take for granted, but it's-

Joe Rogan 11:12 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 11:12 ... if you start to look at it, it's like, it's like gravity. You know, gravity, we sort of e- include it in our calculations, but nobody has any idea what's happening.

Joe Rogan 11:21 Right. Right.

Christopher Ryan 11:21 How does that work? Like, oh, two things-

Joe Rogan 11:23 Neil deGrasse Tyson-

Christopher Ryan 11:23 ... are attracted.

Joe Rogan 11:24 ... got real touchy about it.

Christopher Ryan 11:25 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 11:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah, when I brought it up. He... I think he's... We had a weird conversation, and I think part of the weird conversation, it was the first conversation that he's had publicly since he's been accused of, you know-

Christopher Ryan 11:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:37 ... the, the, the-

Christopher Ryan 11:37 But he came back from that.

Joe Rogan 11:38 ... sexual misconduct.

Christopher Ryan 11:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:39 Yeah. Well, he was e- you know, they found him innocent according to whatever internal-

Christopher Ryan 11:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:44 ... um, investigation they had, uh, you know, when, when they were doing his television show or-

Christopher Ryan 11:48 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:49 ... the, you know, planetarium. But, um, it's still, even if, even if he's proven innocent, you've, you know, you've got the weight of who knows how many people that think you're a creep now.

Christopher Ryan 12:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 12:02 You know? And he's carrying that around because he was always thought of as being this jovial-

Christopher Ryan 12:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:06 ... really sweet and nice guy, so he's a little tense anyway.

Christopher Ryan 12:08 That's why I start out admitting I'm a creep.

Joe Rogan 12:10 (laughs) It's good. That's what you do.

Christopher Ryan 12:12 Ladies and gentlemen, I am a fucking creep.

Joe Rogan 12:14 You can't shame-

Christopher Ryan 12:14 Just take it from there.

Joe Rogan 12:15 ... Charlie Sheen.

Christopher Ryan 12:16 (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 12:17 You cannot shame Charlie Sheen.

Christopher Ryan 12:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:18 Um, but we had this conversation about gravity and it was weird. It, it was like I was arguing with him, but I wasn't arguing. It was like... I was like, "What, what is causing..." Like, like, "What causes it?" And he's like, "We know!"... like, he went into this whole thing. "We know what it is. We know how to measure it, we can m- that's good enough for me."

Christopher Ryan 12:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:37 It was v- it was a very tense conversation.

Christopher Ryan 12:40 That's interesting.

Joe Rogan 12:40 Yeah. It was-

Christopher Ryan 12:41 'Cause it is a faith-based thing there, you know? Like, he, he's right, they know how to measure it.

Joe Rogan 12:45 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 12:46 But we also know how to measure a placebo.

Joe Rogan 12:48 Right.

Christopher Ryan 12:48 And we don't know how the fuck that works. We know that hypnosis, people can have open heart surgery under hypnosis, or have limbs amputated, or all sorts of amazing things with no anesthesia whatsoever.

Joe Rogan 12:59 Has that really been done?

Christopher Ryan 13:00 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:01 Wow.

Christopher Ryan 13:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:02 Have you ever been hypnotized?

Christopher Ryan 13:03 Yeah. But I, I don't have high hypnotic ability.

Joe Rogan 13:07 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 13:07 That differs, uh, it's another thing that differs among people. And Stanley actually has a really interesting theory, uh, along those lines, which is that in, uh, prehistoric populations, hypnotic ability would be, um, uh, adaptive because a lot of the healing rituals were keying into placebo response. Uh, so if we have a certain ritual, if you're susceptible to the, you know, you believe in that, like voodoo. Uh, there's a-

Joe Rogan 13:37 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 13:38 ... you know, voodoo death, people die-

Joe Rogan 13:39 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 13:39 ... when their, uh, spell is cast or occurs.

Joe Rogan 13:42 They believe it. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 13:42 'Cause they believe it. If you don't believe it, it doesn't happen. So it happens, uh, the opposite direction as well with healing. So his, his idea is that that would've been a very adaptive, um, characteristic in prehistoric societies, whereas in contemporary societies, it's maladaptive.

Joe Rogan 13:58 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 13:59 Because you're more susceptible to advertising or you're easier to manipulate.

Joe Rogan 14:03 Ah, yeah. Hmm.

Christopher Ryan 14:04 Yeah. So I, uh, yeah, I've, I've, uh, when I was in grad school, I had some professors who worked with hypnosis, and I studied it a bit, uh, along the same, around the same time I was looking at multiple personality disorder. 'Cause I was real interested in this question of how the brain and the body interact, how much of, you know, there's all this research showing that people with the same, um, condition in, in hospitals, exactly the same age, same prognosis and all that, they heal significantly faster if their hospital window looks out on trees as opposed to it looks out at another building.

Joe Rogan 14:42 Mm, that makes sense.

Christopher Ryan 14:42 Something like that.

Joe Rogan 14:43 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 14:43 Just looking at something like nature-

Joe Rogan 14:46 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 14:47 ... keys the body into s- to some sort of energy that, that helps it to heal.

Joe Rogan 14:51 Completely makes sense. I've met people with multiple personalities. Well, Roseanne, Roseanne's got mul- doesn't she? G- l- make sure that's true. Um, uh, I know another one that's a weird one is, uh, the football player Herschel Walker. I think he had trauma-induced multiple personality disorders.

Christopher Ryan 15:06 Wow.

Joe Rogan 15:07 Does she?

Jamie Vernon 15:08 There's a article that says, like, Bill B- Bill Maher reminds us she does, and then Roseanne says she doesn't, so...

Joe Rogan 15:13 Yeah, I think she does.

Jamie Vernon 15:15 And then this 2001 says seven, having seven personalities is tough, her saying it, so...

Joe Rogan 15:20 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 15:20 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:20 Uh, well, here's the thing about Roseanne, I mean, uh, and I'm, I'm saying this for the tenth time, I guess. She was hit by a car when she was 15, and she was put in a mental institute for nine months afterwards. She had severe brain damage, and she lost her ability to do mathematics, and, like, it really scrambled her brain. And that is p- the, probably the birth of the Roseanne that we know, the comedian. And, um, that's also the case with Sam Kinison. Sam Kinison was also, uh, like a pretty normal kid, and then he was hit by a car, and, you know, pretty severe brain damage as well. And, um, brain damage for w- especially, um, apparently, uh, it has a c- it, uh, especially has an impact on, um, your ability to be, uh, rational and impulsive behavior, it, like, people with brain damage a lot of the times get very impulsive. It's-

Christopher Ryan 16:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:11 ... it varies so widely.

Christopher Ryan 16:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:13 You know, it's, um, what, what happens to you depended upon, like, what kinda trauma, where the trauma is, and what part of your brain. But, um-

Christopher Ryan 16:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:21 ... when, when they said about Herschel Walker, I was always confused. I would wonder if it was from football, like football trauma, or was it personal trauma, like, you know, abuse?

Christopher Ryan 16:29 Yeah. People with l- are diagnosed with multiple personality disorder, if I remember correctly, almost always were severely abused as kids.

Joe Rogan 16:39 Hmm.

Christopher Ryan 16:39 You know? And, in fact, the, the rationale is that they develop the, uh, alternate personalities as a way of escaping a reality that's intolerable.

Joe Rogan 16:50 Makes sense.

Christopher Ryan 16:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:51 Yeah. I mean, l- look, people do weird things with horrible memories, you know? They bury them to the point where they don't even really have access to them anymore.

Christopher Ryan 16:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:59 Sexual abuse and som-

Christopher Ryan 17:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:01 ... some traumatic events when you're young.

Christopher Ryan 17:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:04 But the fucking human brain, and the way it adapts and molds to things is so bizarre.

Christopher Ryan 17:09 Yeah. There's a, there's an anecdote that is in this book, Civilized to Death. Notice that segue.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Ooh, good segue to the book.

Christopher Ryan 17:16 Yeah. Thank you. Um...

Joe Rogan 17:17 Pull that bitch over here.

Christopher Ryan 17:17 Yeah. It's, uh, by the way, the, the art is done by a guy who listens to my podcast.

Joe Rogan 17:23 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 17:23 It's really...

Joe Rogan 17:24 It looks like b- the art by a guy who listens to your podcast.

Christopher Ryan 17:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:28 (laughs) Cheeseburger, a chimp wearing a cheeseburger with a, a nice suit on.

Christopher Ryan 17:32 Yeah. He's got an iPhone. Um, uh, oh, yeah, the story. So, uh, there's a species of grasshopper in North Africa that, uh, you know, they hang out, they're grasshoppers, they, they're dispersed, they eat grass, they're chill, right? Rains come, the grasslands expand, grasshopper population increases. Then the rains stop, the grasslands contract to the point where the p- the density of the grasshoppers triggers a dormant gene. So there's an epigenetic, uh, event in these grasshoppers, and they start to transform. And not over generations, individuals. Front legs get shorter, back legs get longer, thorax changes, shape of the head changes, coloring changes, and behavior changes from being these chilled out, solitary, relaxed grasshoppers. They start attacking each other. They become cannibalistic.

Joe Rogan 18:29 Whoa.

Christopher Ryan 18:30 And they swarm.

Joe Rogan 18:31 Locusts.

Christopher Ryan 18:31 Locusts.

Joe Rogan 18:32 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 18:32 Exactly. They become locusts.

Joe Rogan 18:34 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 18:35 So this species of grasshopper and locust is the same species.

Joe Rogan 18:39 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 18:39 It's the same DNA. It's just responding to different conditions. So, you know, we're talking about the brain, and, you know, who you are, and what identity is, and all that-And this, I was reminded of this when you said, uh, you know, people are so different and the H2O thing.

Joe Rogan 18:55 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 18:55 We're not only different as individuals in the same context, we change completely given the context we're in.

Joe Rogan 19:02 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 19:02 So, the focus of this book is that hunter-gatherers were essentially a different sort of animal. They were essentially, you know, uh, the parallel is with the grasshoppers, and now we're swarming.

Joe Rogan 19:12 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 19:13 Now we're a different kind of animal, even though our DNA is the same.

Joe Rogan 19:16 Well, that completely makes sense. I mean, people that live in small towns are so different than-

Christopher Ryan 19:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:20 ... people that live in cities.

Christopher Ryan 19:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:21 It's so rare-

Christopher Ryan 19:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:22 ... that you find someone who has a small town sensibility in Manhattan. You know?

Christopher Ryan 19:26 Yeah, they get chewed up.

Joe Rogan 19:27 Yeah. (laughs) Right.

Christopher Ryan 19:28 (laughs) Like, literally. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:29 Yeah, literally. Yeah. It's-

Christopher Ryan 19:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:31 ... um, that's, the, the, the locust thing is amazing. Have you ever written, or r- read, rather, rather the accounts of, um, the settlers, uh, in the, you know, the pioneer days? Making their way across the country and, uh, dealing with these swarms of locusts and really not having any idea what to do with them or how to handle it?

Christopher Ryan 19:48 Eat them.

Joe Rogan 19:49 Yeah. Yeah, you can. Sure.

Christopher Ryan 19:49 The Native Americans ate them, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:51 Oh, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 19:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:52 That's probably a real good move, right?

Christopher Ryan 19:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:54 That's one of the things that people think is, uh, probably, uh, an excellent solution to, uh, some of the issues that people have with meat 'cause, uh, a lot of people don't have any problem killing bugs, but they wouldn't want to kill a lamb.

Christopher Ryan 20:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:07 You know? But you can ... you have cricket protein. It's really-

Christopher Ryan 20:09 We call it microagriculture.

Joe Rogan 20:11 Yeah, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 20:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:12 Cricket protein's apparently, like, very healthy.

Christopher Ryan 20:15 It's good. I've eaten crickets.

Joe Rogan 20:15 Yeah, I have too.

Christopher Ryan 20:16 In Thailand?

Joe Rogan 20:17 I've had them in Mexico.

Christopher Ryan 20:18 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:19 In Mexico, they v- they had them fried, and we were staying at a resort in, uh, um, where was it? Um, A- Punta Mita? Yeah, I think it was down there. Uh, Puerto Vallarta.

Christopher Ryan 20:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:31 And, uh, they had a bowl in the resort, like, when we walked into the hotel room. We're like, "Okay."

Christopher Ryan 20:36 Like, mints? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:36 Yeah, they had, like, sliced mangoes-

Christopher Ryan 20:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:38 ... and then they had fucking crickets.

Christopher Ryan 20:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:40 And I was like, "All right. I'll try that. I hosted Fear Factor."

Christopher Ryan 20:43 There's a restaurant here in LA that I was at just a couple weeks ago that has all sorts of crickets and grasshoppers.

Joe Rogan 20:48 Really?

Christopher Ryan 20:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:48 What's it called?

Christopher Ryan 20:49 Uh, it's a Mexican place. They specialize in mole.

Joe Rogan 20:53 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 20:53 Uh, I don't remember what it's called.

Joe Rogan 20:55 A good Mexican place?

Christopher Ryan 20:56 It's really good.

Joe Rogan 20:57 Isn't it weird-

Christopher Ryan 20:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:57 ... that, like, uh, m- there's a lot of great Mexican food in LA, but it's like, you know, like, your basic burrito joints and taco j- it's not like gourmet Mexican food. It's very few-

Christopher Ryan 21:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:08 ... gourmet Mexican places.

Christopher Ryan 21:09 Oh, this place is-

Joe Rogan 21:10 Is that it right there?

Christopher Ryan 21:10 Yeah, that's it. That's why-

Jamie Vernon 21:11 Guelaguetza.

Joe Rogan 21:12 Damn, Jamie?

Christopher Ryan 21:12 I couldn't remember the name.

Joe Rogan 21:14 Jamie?

Jamie Vernon 21:14 Pow. Pow-pow.

Christopher Ryan 21:15 Guelaguetza.

Joe Rogan 21:16 Jamie's on top of it.

Jamie Vernon 21:17 Guelaguetza.

Christopher Ryan 21:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:17 Is that how you say it? Have you been there?

Jamie Vernon 21:18 Yeah. No, I just, I know the word. It's, uh, like a, I don't know if it means party, but it's a celebration down in, like, the-

Joe Rogan 21:23 Mm.

Jamie Vernon 21:23 ... Oaxaca.

Christopher Ryan 21:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:24 Damn.

Christopher Ryan 21:25 Oaxaca.

Joe Rogan 21:26 Serving up insects.

Christopher Ryan 21:27 Yeah, check it out.

Joe Rogan 21:29 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 21:29 It's a good place. I, I really, the mole's fantastic.

Joe Rogan 21:31 Where is that at? What part of LA?

Jamie Vernon 21:34 On Olympic.

Joe Rogan 21:34 Olympic.

Christopher Ryan 21:34 Olympic.

Joe Rogan 21:35 Oh, okay.

Christopher Ryan 21:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:35 Deep in the heart of Texas.

Christopher Ryan 21:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:37 Bam. Beautiful.

Christopher Ryan 21:39 Yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 21:40 Mole. I love mole.

Christopher Ryan 21:41 And, uh, and let's face it, shrimp, lobster, that's just bugs.

Joe Rogan 21:44 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 21:44 Those are just big sea bugs.

Joe Rogan 21:45 Well, we found that out on Fear Factor 'cause people that are allergic to sh- shellfish are also allergic to roaches.

Christopher Ryan 21:50 Ah.

Joe Rogan 21:51 Yeah, we found that out the hard way.

Christopher Ryan 21:54 (laughs) Little lawsuit?

Joe Rogan 21:55 No, no. We f-

Christopher Ryan 21:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:56 The dude, uh, was allergic to shellfish, and he had to eat roaches for this thing, and, you know, they wound up having to give him an- an adrenaline shot.

Christopher Ryan 22:02 Oh.

Joe Rogan 22:03 He was like-

Christopher Ryan 22:04 Yeah.

Jamie Vernon 22:04 EpiPen.

Joe Rogan 22:05 ... (gasps)

Christopher Ryan 22:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:05 Yeah. He was, uh, seizing up a little bit.

Christopher Ryan 22:07 That's not good.

Joe Rogan 22:07 You know, your, your windpipe starts constricting.

Christopher Ryan 22:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:10 You know?

Christopher Ryan 22:11 I'm not allergic to anything as far as I know.

Joe Rogan 22:13 Congratulations.

Christopher Ryan 22:13 I'm very happy, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:15 Me too, yeah. That's a bummer, man. Allergies are a b- especially freaking peanuts. I've, I've heard peanut allergies are so bad that people will ask you to not eat peanuts on a plane-

Christopher Ryan 22:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:25 ... with someone who has a peanut allergy. Like, some people's peanut allergy is so severe-

Christopher Ryan 22:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:30 ... that even, like, the dust of you chewing peanuts on a plane next to them can get them sick.

Christopher Ryan 22:37 And, and it's interesting to think about the state of consciousness and how that affects allergies because apparently, and again, I'm always cautious about saying-

Joe Rogan 22:47 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 22:47 ... shit on this show-

Joe Rogan 22:48 Sure.

Christopher Ryan 22:48 ... 'cause there's so many people listening. So, caveat, it's been a long time since I read the research, but if I remember correctly, uh, under hypnosis, a lot of people with allergies no longer ... In fact, I remember the research. Yeah, there was a s- it was a setup where the person could see, so like, you and I are talking across the table, and there's a mirror behind me, and in the mirror, in your peripheral vision, you see, uh, roses, and you're allergic to roses. You'll have a reaction.

Joe Rogan 23:21 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 23:22 Even though they're plastic roses.

Joe Rogan 23:24 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 23:25 So it sort of enters the consciousness and triggers the response subconsciously.

Joe Rogan 23:30 Hmm.

Christopher Ryan 23:31 Yeah, if, if, I think that's how it was. And then with people under hypnosis, like, uh, Andrew Weil wrote about this, uh, cat allergies. He was tripping, he was on MDMA, I think, and he was playing with a cat and then had no reaction to it.

Joe Rogan 23:44 Whoa.

Christopher Ryan 23:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:46 Look at this. Self-hypnosis squelches allergies.

Christopher Ryan 23:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:49 Picturing ski slopes-

Christopher Ryan 23:49 I need a Jamie in my life.

Joe Rogan 23:51 You do.

Christopher Ryan 23:51 Damn.

Joe Rogan 23:52 Picturing ski slopes reduces hay fever symptoms by a third.

Christopher Ryan 23:56 Look at that.

Joe Rogan 23:56 Picturing ski slopes. How weird.

Christopher Ryan 23:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:59 What a weird, like, "Ah, I'm skiing high."

Christopher Ryan 24:03 Well, 'cause you're picturing a place where there's no pollen.

Joe Rogan 24:05 Mm-hmm. Right.

Christopher Ryan 24:05 Right?

Joe Rogan 24:06 Right.

Christopher Ryan 24:06 It's, you could probably picture the surface of Mars too.

Joe Rogan 24:08 Yeah, well, you know, if you've ever got a needle, and like, you get a shot, and the doctor's about to give you the shot, and you start, like, tensing up, like you feel this, like, r- uh, the anticipation.

Christopher Ryan 24:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:17 It makes it, like, your, your heart starts quickening, and you get, like, really weirded out by it. But then you get the shot, and you're like, "Oh, that wasn't shit." Like, "Why was I freaking out like that?" But it's this, the psychosomatic aspect of it.

Christopher Ryan 24:28 ... I think that's what life is, basically-

Joe Rogan 24:31 A lot, in a lot of ways.

Christopher Ryan 24:31 ... in a nut share-

Joe Rogan 24:32 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 24:32 ... in a nutshell.

Joe Rogan 24:32 It's an analogy.

Christopher Ryan 24:33 Like, we're always worried about things. We spend so much time worrying about things, most of which never occur.

Joe Rogan 24:39 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 24:39 You know? And even the ones that do occur, it's like, "Wow, whatever."

Joe Rogan 24:43 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 24:43 Like death. You know, what is... I'm not worried about death. Dying, maybe, if it takes too long.

Joe Rogan 24:49 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 24:49 But if it's, if it takes, like, an hour or a day to die, w- that's a tiny fraction of your life. Who gives a shit?

Joe Rogan 24:55 Y- you're not a guy that really spends a lotta time working on fitness or-

Christopher Ryan 24:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:59 ... health or any o- any of those-

Christopher Ryan 25:01 That's a nice way to put it.

Joe Rogan 25:02 Well, you, you enjoyed that article-

Christopher Ryan 25:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:04 ... that I wrote back in the day.

Christopher Ryan 25:04 Lazy fuck is what I-

Joe Rogan 25:05 I wasn't gonna say that, man.

Christopher Ryan 25:05 ... is what you're trying to say.

Joe Rogan 25:06 I love you.

Christopher Ryan 25:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:07 But, uh, w- I-

Christopher Ryan 25:08 I take it as a compliment.

Joe Rogan 25:09 (laughs) You enjoyed-

Christopher Ryan 25:11 I got better things to do than work out, Joe.

Joe Rogan 25:13 (laughs) I get it. Um, you enjoyed that article that I wrote a long time ago-

Christopher Ryan 25:16 I did. The-

Joe Rogan 25:17 ... about th-

Christopher Ryan 25:17 ... the sand-

Joe Rogan 25:18 Yeah, human body's like a sandcastle.

Christopher Ryan 25:19 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:20 Like, you, you can make it beautiful, but it's not gonna last.

Christopher Ryan 25:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:22 It's y- and you know that going in. You know that while you're doing it.

Christopher Ryan 25:25 Yeah. And I, uh, and, I mean, I've got this idea for a book, m- m- if I keep writing books, uh, which is sort of a self-help book, but it's a parody of self-help books. And so it'll be, it'll be calling attention to the way so much of what we do to try to be healthy is actually counterproductive 'cause we stress.

Joe Rogan 25:43 Mm. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 25:43 Especially Americans. Everything's work.

Joe Rogan 25:45 Sure, sure.

Christopher Ryan 25:45 You know?

Joe Rogan 25:45 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 25:45 Everything turns into work. And Americans are very suspicious of pleasure. We're taught to, uh, that pleasure is, uh, you know, evil and dangerous and all this.

Joe Rogan 25:55 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 25:56 I've never bought that line of reasoning. I've always felt like what feels good generally is good.

Joe Rogan 26:01 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 26:02 There's a reason it feels good, you know?

Joe Rogan 26:04 Yeah. M-

Christopher Ryan 26:04 Now, that can get corrupted by advertising and false messaging from a sick society, uh, that tells you, you know, sit on the sofa and drink beer and eat bags of chips all day. But, uh, if you get beyond that and you can actually hear the voice of your body, I think if your body is telling you to, you know, stay in bed 'cause it's a rainy, cold day... Now, I know this is totally against your perspective on life where you're like, "You gotta tame the inner bitch. You gotta get outta bed. You gotta work out. It doesn't matter." I'm like, "No, man. I'm staying in bed."

Joe Rogan 26:39 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 26:39 Like, "You, you go do what you need to do." I used to climb mountains with this friend of mine in Spain, and he was like you. He was fucking billy goat. He'd, like, go up the... And I'd go with him til I got to a nice spot with a nice view-

Joe Rogan 26:52 And you'd sit down.

Christopher Ryan 26:52 ... and I'd be like, "Dude, I'll be here when you come down."

Joe Rogan 26:55 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 26:56 (laughs) And I'll taking a nap, got a bottle of wine and some cheese.

Joe Rogan 26:59 Mm. I appreciate that too.

Christopher Ryan 27:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:02 I'm, I'm not married to my perspective, but, uh, I think I have, um, a very peculiar biology that demands a certain amount of exertion.

Christopher Ryan 27:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:12 Me-

Christopher Ryan 27:12 Sure.

Joe Rogan 27:12 ... personally.

Christopher Ryan 27:13 And I have friends like that. I mean, I, you know, I've, lots of friends like, "Man, I, if I don't run every day, I feel like shit." I'm like-

Joe Rogan 27:20 Running's very addictive though.

Christopher Ryan 27:21 ... "I feel fine."

Joe Rogan 27:22 Yeah. You get, you get used to the... There's a high that you get from running that's really interesting. And any, um, long-term cardiovascular exercise, you get this. It's like, we did, you know, w- last, last October, we did this Sober October thing where we had a, this crazy fitness challenge. So, all of us were doing cardio, like, five hours a day, like, r- really crazy amounts of cardio. And one of the things that Tom Segura and I both agreed on is, like, the, the amount of internal chatter dissipates to zero.

Christopher Ryan 27:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:50 Like, you have no anxiety. It goes... I, I didn't realize I had any anxiety until that happened, and then I was like, "God, it goes to zero. It goes to nothing." Like, when you do, like, five hours on, uh, a treadmill or y- just running, just run f- when you, when it's done, man, there's this, like, peace of mind that comes with that that's, uh, uh, release of endorphins that's incredibly addictive 'cause that feeling is so pleasing. So, it's not that it doesn't... It doesn't feel good to get out of bed and then t- to just push when you don't want to, but the end result feels amazing. It does feel-

Christopher Ryan 28:30 So-

Joe Rogan 28:30 ... really good.

Christopher Ryan 28:30 ... I, I wonder if there's any research, uh, looking into whether that effect happens universally.

Joe Rogan 28:39 Hm.

Christopher Ryan 28:39 Because I've worked out. I've run.

Joe Rogan 28:41 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 28:41 There were times in my life... I never, I've never gotten-

Joe Rogan 28:45 Never got that.

Christopher Ryan 28:45 ... a runner's high.

Joe Rogan 28:46 No.

Christopher Ryan 28:46 Never. I get my teeth hurt, my knees hurt-

Joe Rogan 28:50 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 28:50 ... my back hurts. I feel my brain-

Joe Rogan 28:52 Bouncing around.

Christopher Ryan 28:52 ... you know, bouncing around in my skull. You know, I'm half a mile into it and I'm like, "Fuck this. This doesn't feel good."

Joe Rogan 29:00 You have to get in, you have to get in shape first. That's a big part of it.

Christopher Ryan 29:03 (groans) Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:03 It's not, it's not that simple. It's like, for me, uh, uh, I never really got into running. Um, I d- like, the first time I really did any serious running, I, my, my friend Cam Hanes had a, a 5K, which is... What is that? Three miles? Something like that?

Christopher Ryan 29:20 Something like that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:21 Um, and I didn't run at all in preparation for it. And when I ran the, the 5K, I was like, "Jesus Christ, is this hard." Like, I didn't have... I- there was no good feeling at all.

Christopher Ryan 29:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:32 You know, it's running on concrete and shit-

Christopher Ryan 29:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:34 ... in, in Vegas. It's gross.

Christopher Ryan 29:35 Oh, in Vegas.

Joe Rogan 29:36 Just smelling sin in the air. (sniffs) And, uh, but when it was over, I was like, "Okay, obviously, uh, I'm not... I'm in good shape, but not in good running shape at all-"

Christopher Ryan 29:46 Hm.

Joe Rogan 29:46 "... so I should probably get in shape for this." So then I started running, and then when I got into running and p- and particularly running hills, then I started feeling it once I kinda got in that kinda shape. And then when the, you know, when the, the workouts are over, like, I r- I run all the time now, and when it's over, I just have this, "Ah."

Christopher Ryan 30:05 Yeah, you and Marshall are-

Joe Rogan 30:06 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 30:06 ... doing your thing. It's great.

Joe Rogan 30:08 Yeah, I fucking lo- And he loves it too. It's a crazy bonding experience with that dog, you know?

Christopher Ryan 30:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:13 When... 'Cause he loves it, you know?

Christopher Ryan 30:15 I got my dad a golden retriever-

Joe Rogan 30:17 They're the best dogs.

Christopher Ryan 30:18 ... years ago when my dad was like... You know, I could... Maybe it's genetic 'cause he was pretty lazy.

Joe Rogan 30:23 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 30:23 He'd come home from work and he'd, you know, sit in front of the TV and drink vodka and get upset about the news, and, and, uh, my mother didn't like dogs, but I, my sister and I convinced her that Dad needs a dog 'cause Dad'll get this dog and he'll go for walks 'cause the dog needs to walk, and so we got him a golden retriever. He named it Stoli-

Joe Rogan 30:42 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 30:43 Bad sign right there. And then, uh, and then he never went for walks. Stoli just sat-

Joe Rogan 30:49 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 30:49 ... next to him and got fat. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:51 Oh, poor Stoli.

Christopher Ryan 30:52 I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 30:54 Yeah. Well, it's common.

Christopher Ryan 30:55 Doesn't always work.

Joe Rogan 30:56 No. Um, yeah, uh, it helps me get going 'cause I know that he needs exercise.

Christopher Ryan 31:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:01 It does. But it helps me too, and it's fun. Like, I talk to him when we run, you know? Like, as we're running, you know, I, uh, have little conversations with him.

Christopher Ryan 31:10 Yeah. Cool.

Joe Rogan 31:11 It's fun, you know?

Christopher Ryan 31:12 He's, he's not judging you, right?

Joe Rogan 31:14 Pssh, he doesn't give a fuck.

Christopher Ryan 31:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:15 I could be fat, I could be covered in shit, he wouldn't give a-

Christopher Ryan 31:18 He'd probably prefer that.

Joe Rogan 31:19 (laughs) Roll around me.

Christopher Ryan 31:20 Make you more interesting.

Joe Rogan 31:21 Yeah. It's, but the, the runner's high is a real thing, but you have to achieve some level of fitness before I think it kicks in.

Christopher Ryan 31:29 Yeah, I, I've, closest I've come to that is the sex high.

Joe Rogan 31:33 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 31:34 You know?

Joe Rogan 31:34 Post, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 31:35 No, during.

Joe Rogan 31:36 Post-coital. Oh, okay, during.

Christopher Ryan 31:36 You know, it's like y- yeah, maybe there's, like, a workout element to that but-

Joe Rogan 31:40 Well, sex, when you're really aroused and you're really attracted to the person, like, in the middle of the act of it, it's like you're on a drug.

Christopher Ryan 31:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:47 It can be, like, this incredible, uh, elevation where you, you're high basically. You're high in this crazy-

Christopher Ryan 31:55 Sure, endorphins, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:57 ... aroused state.

Christopher Ryan 31:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:59 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 31:59 And you have that, that, uh, hyper-focus-

Joe Rogan 32:02 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 32:02 ... that you're talking about.

Joe Rogan 32:03 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 32:03 You know, removing anxiety, you're not thinking about-

Joe Rogan 32:06 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 32:07 ... uh, you know, anything other than where you are. It's one of those, uh, beautiful moments. I had a guy on my podcast recently who's, like, a legend in the, the world of, uh, like, high-risk stuff. He's a BASE jumper and he flies those wing suits and-

Joe Rogan 32:22 What's his name?

Christopher Ryan 32:23 Oh, fuck. What is his name? He lives in, in Bozeman, Montana, super-

Joe Rogan 32:27 Andy Stump?

Christopher Ryan 32:28 No.

Joe Rogan 32:29 That's crazy 'cause my friend Andy Stump lives in Montana too.

Christopher Ryan 32:31 Well, I'm sure he knows him.

Joe Rogan 32:32 And he's the, he holds the world record-

Christopher Ryan 32:34 Ben-

Joe Rogan 32:34 ... for that wing suit shit.

Christopher Ryan 32:35 Ben Stewart, could it be? I, man, I don't remember.

Joe Rogan 32:39 I'm sure Andy knows him.

Christopher Ryan 32:40 Yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan 32:40 He lives in Bozeman.

Christopher Ryan 32:41 And this guy's 44. He's been doing it a long time and-

Joe Rogan 32:44 That's about how old Andy is.

Christopher Ryan 32:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:46 Andy's probably a little younger than that.

Christopher Ryan 32:46 They probably fly together. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:48 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 32:48 Yeah, really nice guy. But it was interesting, like, how, you know, here's this guy who's doing this super high-risk adrenaline, um, stuff, and, like, he just had done this thing where he's paragliding with another dude on the Brooks Range in Alaska.

Jamie Vernon 33:05 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Christopher Ryan 33:05 And, like, just the two of them, and they lo- land and camp.

Jamie Vernon 33:08 Oh my God.

Christopher Ryan 33:09 You know, nowhere, bears everywhere, like, forget it.

Jamie Vernon 33:12 Ugh.

Christopher Ryan 33:13 And then they'd get up the next morning, jump off the mountain and keep going. It's like, "Fuck."

Jamie Vernon 33:17 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 33:17 But this guy was so calm. He was just like, it was like talking to Buddha or something.

Jamie Vernon 33:23 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 33:23 He was just, like, so centered and relaxed and focused. It was, it was beautiful. We had a really enjoyable conversation, from my perspective anyway, um, 'cause I tend to be kinda scattered and, you know-

Jamie Vernon 33:37 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 33:37 ... tangentially speaking, right?

Joe Rogan 33:38 Right, right, right.

Christopher Ryan 33:38 As I'm going all over the place. Whereas he was just, like, it was just really centered and, and balanced. It was nice.

Joe Rogan 33:45 I guess you have to have laser focus if you're gonna fuck around with that kinda stuff.

Christopher Ryan 33:48 That's it. You don't wanna...

Joe Rogan 33:50 Is that the Jeff, yeah?

Christopher Ryan 33:51 Yeah, Jeff Shapiro, that's him.

Joe Rogan 33:52 There he is.

Christopher Ryan 33:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:53 Look at him.

Christopher Ryan 33:53 Yeah, thanks, Jamie.

Joe Rogan 33:54 He looks like Buddha.

Christopher Ryan 33:54 Yeah, and that's his, uh, his falcon. He, he's-

Joe Rogan 33:56 Oh, Jesus.

Christopher Ryan 33:57 ... got this falcon as well.

Joe Rogan 33:58 Right when I was starting to love him.

Christopher Ryan 33:59 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:02 (laughs) He's got a fucking falcon.

Christopher Ryan 34:03 He's all into, into flight, man. He's-

Joe Rogan 34:05 Yeah, I guess so.

Christopher Ryan 34:06 That's his thing. Yeah, he's really-

Joe Rogan 34:08 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 34:08 ... he's a cool dude.

Joe Rogan 34:09 Those wing suits, man. I mean, w- talk about risk versus reward, fuck.

Christopher Ryan 34:14 He told this story. He was like, he said, "Yeah, you know, I've had the experience a few times of, you know, standing on this, toes over the cliff 3,000 feet up or whatever," and fist bump with your buddy and he goes and says, "See you, you know, see you down there." He goes and then you hear it. Bang. Yeah, he's gone.

Joe Rogan 34:35 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 34:35 And, like, I've carried dudes' bodies out of the woods, you know?

Joe Rogan 34:38 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 34:38 Like, I've done that too many times. He was talking about, you know, these different approaches and how the young guys tend to be more, "Ah, fuck it, man, I'm..." They think they're indestructible and-

Joe Rogan 34:48 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 34:48 ... at his age, he's seen enough, he's carried enough bodies, he's lost enough friends that he's not thinking that way anymore, you know? And he-

Joe Rogan 34:55 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 34:55 ... doesn't wanna be around guys who are 'cause-

Joe Rogan 34:58 Right.

Christopher Ryan 34:59 ... he doesn't wanna deal with the trauma, you know?

Joe Rogan 35:01 Well, it's all ab- it, it, there's a competitive aspect to it too. Like, "Come on, don't be a pussy."

Christopher Ryan 35:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:05 You know? Like, that stuff can get you killed too 'cause then it just, like, sort of hijacks your own s- way of interacting with whatever the fuck this danger is.

Christopher Ryan 35:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:16 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 35:17 Yeah, peer pressure.

Joe Rogan 35:18 Yeah, that's real.

Christopher Ryan 35:19 Fuck it.

Joe Rogan 35:19 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 35:20 I start off, I'm a pussy. I'm a creep-

Joe Rogan 35:22 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 35:22 ... I'm a pussy. Uh, you know? Like, n- you got no leverage.

Joe Rogan 35:26 Peer pressure.

Christopher Ryan 35:26 I'm, I'm lazy.

Joe Rogan 35:27 You know what fascinates me, man? Mob mentality.

Christopher Ryan 35:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:30 A mob mentality like, uh, like, you know, if there's, like, a riot, uh, uh, like, physical violence-

Christopher Ryan 35:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:36 ... but in, in a way that you would never, like, there're a lot of people who would never think about hitting someone when people are hitting people all over the place, you'll just dive in. Like, people will dive in and kick people and punch people.

Christopher Ryan 35:48 Hm.

Joe Rogan 35:48 It's very weird.

Christopher Ryan 35:49 Like bar fights you see?

Joe Rogan 35:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 35:51 I've, I've never seen one in real life. I've seen 'em-

Joe Rogan 35:53 Oh, I've seen a bunch of them.

Christopher Ryan 35:54 Have you? Does that happen? People just randomly-

Joe Rogan 35:56 Oh, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 35:56 ... punching each other?

Joe Rogan 35:56 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. People just punch people. Yeah. I've seen some-

Christopher Ryan 36:00 That's bizarre.

Joe Rogan 36:00 ... I've seen some pretty chaotic brawls. It's, uh, it's, uh, but there's a strange feeling in the air. It's almost like a smell. You know, like, you, Jim, you're nodding.

Jamie Vernon 36:11 Yeah, I was in a, at a riot and that, earlier the da- in the day, we s- like, we were like, "The hornet's nest is gonna explode tonight." We kinda felt it.

Christopher Ryan 36:19 Hm.

Joe Rogan 36:19 What was the premise? What was the-

Jamie Vernon 36:20 This was, uh, after the Ohio State/Michigan game in, like, 2002. Big Ohio State/Michigan game, I know you don't really understand the football thing of it, but they're, it's a huge day, big event, uh, we won in a very close game, undefeated season for Ohio State so they're headed to the national championship. This then meant s- uh, sofas on fire in the street for, like, the next couple of hours. And then shortly, uh, as the night exploded, uh, there was a couple bonfires in the middle of the street.

Joe Rogan 36:47 ... we went, we heard or saw it on the news, so we went close to see it 'cause we were a couple blocks away. As we got close, we heard the knee-knocker bullets getting fired out, so everybody scattered.

Christopher Ryan 36:55 Were those rubber bullets?

Joe Rogan 36:56 Yeah, from like ... So, w- everyone went from one street on campus to, like, three other streets. Then it started up again. The street I was on, seven cars got flipped over, I think-

Christopher Ryan 37:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:06 ... a- and lit on fire. So people started trying to, like, move their cars so they didn't lose it-

Christopher Ryan 37:10 Oh.

Joe Rogan 37:10 ... 'cause they're college kids, don't have any money, whatever. A lot of those people got caught on video, s- expelled from school, whatever. But at the end of that street, I was ... uh, we were on it. Uh, we saw all the riot police, the SWAT team, like, lining up. They started firing out tear gas everywhere. A tear gas canister ended up on the porch of the house we were in. Like, exploded in the house almost, so, like, we were all coughing and had to get the fuck out of there.

Christopher Ryan 37:31 Wow.

Joe Rogan 37:32 Lasted for a couple hours. Like, no one died or anything like that. There wasn't a lot of violence, but just 12 to 15 cars got fucked up.

Christopher Ryan 37:38 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:38 The thing is, someone could've died. Yeah, yeah. That's what's really, that's what's really crazy about those chaotic moments of, of violence, is that when, when something's in the air like that and you see, like, a big brawl going on, it's like everything seems ... It s- it seems like civilization is flimsy.

Christopher Ryan 37:54 Mm.

Joe Rogan 37:54 Like, for that brief moment. I think there's a natural thing that kicks in with people that sort of, uh, allows them to act in war, and allows them to act ... Like when the tribe is invaded, like when, you know, when a, a neighboring army invades your village. There's some thing that kicks in where you, like, recognize this is violence, and you just look to swing on anybody that's around you. And you see it in these, these brawls. When you see, uh, some sort of a riot, like, you see these people, and you're like, "I guarantee you that guy's never punched anybody before in his life, and he's running over trying to punch people, and everybody's punching everybody." And people are swinging and s- you know. You see it in these fucking ... When, when y- whenever you see, like, uh, uh, like, an ANTIFA versus Proud Boys type thing, you know what I mean? Like, these left versus right, Trump supporters versus Bernie Bros-

Christopher Ryan 38:48 Mm.

Joe Rogan 38:48 ... and you see chaos.

Christopher Ryan 38:49 You're talking about online, or in, in, in the street?

Joe Rogan 38:51 Or online. I haven't seen those in b- in person.

Christopher Ryan 38:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:53 But when you see these moments-

Christopher Ryan 38:55 Tribal.

Joe Rogan 38:56 ... where ... These tribal moments-

Christopher Ryan 38:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:57 ... where it feels like it could break out into violence at any time-

Christopher Ryan 38:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:00 ... there's a f- there's a smell in the air. It's like it changes the atmosphere of the air, and you feel like you gotta protect yourself, like anything can happen at any moment. From people that you would never think of as being violent, like you would ne-

Christopher Ryan 39:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:13 ... you would, you would never assume that these folks would be violent to you. They, they don't look scary. They're not scary-looking people, but everybody just seems to get a- it's like a thing (snaps fingers) happens, like the locusts.

Christopher Ryan 39:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:24 Like a little trigger-

Christopher Ryan 39:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:25 ... happens with people.

Christopher Ryan 39:26 Dormant-

Joe Rogan 39:27 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 39:27 ... behavior patterns.

Joe Rogan 39:28 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 39:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:29 I've often wondered about what that is, 'cause I've been around it a bunch of times. And, uh, w- well, I was around it once big time in high school. When I was in h- (laughs) when I was in high school, there was a kid who lived in this really nice house, and he'd moved into the neighborhood for the first time, and he decided he was gonna have a party to meet, meet a bunch of people, make friends. And people started robbing his house, and-

Christopher Ryan 39:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:51 ... and a, a brawl broke out. I'll never forget it. Uh, and I was there, I was there at the event horizon of the brawl. I was there at the moment it happened. A girl did something to a guy. (clears throat) I can't remember what she did. I can't remember if she threw a drink in his face or if she hit him. I don't remember, but I remember him hitting her, 'cause I remember him, I remember him pulling his hand back. I'm like, "Oh my God, he's gonna punch her in the face." And boom, he punched her right ... I mean, like, he knew how to punch too. It was, like, a real punch to the face. The girl goes unconscious, and then, you know, she falls back, and then chaos. I mean, people diving on top of people, piles of people out in the yard. Everybody's fighting everybody, you're just ducking. It's like a movie. And then ...

Christopher Ryan 40:34 And almost everyone has no idea w- what they're even fighting about.

Joe Rogan 40:37 No. I saw the moment it happened. I was there. God, I wish I could remember. Memory is so sucky.

Christopher Ryan 40:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:43 You know? It really is. I have, like, this-

Christopher Ryan 40:46 Yes. (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 ... blurry-

Christopher Ryan 40:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:46 ... slideshow, but I do remember-

Christopher Ryan 40:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:48 ... that fist hitting her face 'cause I remember he went like this. I was like, "Oh, no, he knows how to punch." And he went bang. He just cracked her in the face. And she just, like, her head went back, and she went out cold.

Christopher Ryan 41:00 Mm.

Joe Rogan 41:00 And I think somebody caught her. I think somebody caught her as she was going down, and then it was just melee. And I'm ... But I remember the feeling in the air, 'cause that was the first time I think I'd ever been around anything like that.

Christopher Ryan 41:10 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:11 I was like, "Whoa." It's piles of kids fighting on the, you know, all ... Everyone's taking-

Christopher Ryan 41:15 Oh, were you fighting?

Joe Rogan 41:15 No, I was running away from everybody. (laughs) I was like, "I gotta get the fuck outta here."

Christopher Ryan 41:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:19 I, I mean, I always did martial arts, but I was very, very rarely involved in any extracurricular altercations.

Christopher Ryan 41:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:27 Um, so I just got the fuck outta there. And the other time was when I was a security guard for, uh, Great Woods. Great Woods is a place in Mansfield, Massachusetts, was, like, this concert venue. And, uh, Neil Young was playing, of all people. And there was a, there's a lawn area. It's like-

Christopher Ryan 41:42 I've slept in his bed.

Joe Rogan 41:43 Have you really?

Christopher Ryan 41:44 (laughs) Yo, I can't tell that story. Shit.

Joe Rogan 41:45 Oh, shit.

Christopher Ryan 41:46 Yeah, never mind. I haven't.

Joe Rogan 41:47 Erase, erase that memory.

Christopher Ryan 41:48 I haven't. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:50 So it's an amphitheater, so there's this, like, this covered, uh, seated area-

Christopher Ryan 41:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:54 ... and then behind the covered seated area is this gigantic lawn area.

Christopher Ryan 41:57 Right.

Joe Rogan 41:57 And I don't remember if it was cold out. I don't remember what the deal was, but people started lighting fires on the lawn, like little bonfires, and then it's just ... Then chaos broke out. We started trying ... The security people started trying to put out the fires and tell people to stop, and then people started hitting people and just crazy. And I, I always kept a hoodie with me 'cause I w- you know, I was getting, like, $9 an hour, something like that.

Christopher Ryan 42:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 42:22 I'm not gonna get shot for $9 an hour-

Christopher Ryan 42:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:24 ... or beat up. Fuck this. So as soon as shit went crazy, I put my zip up. I put my hoodie on. I'm like, "I quit." (snaps fingers) I quit the job. (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 42:31 Nice.

Joe Rogan 42:31 And as I was, as I was leaving-

Christopher Ryan 42:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:33 ... as I was quitting, I was watching people just beat the fuck out of people, and I was, like, dodging my way-

Christopher Ryan 42:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:38 ... through this thing. I'm like, "Get outta here with this stupid fucking job."

Christopher Ryan 42:42 Yeah. You gotta know when to leave, man.

Joe Rogan 42:43 But it was a feeling. It was like, (sniffs) "Oh, there's that fucking smell in the air. Like, anything can happen at any moment now."

Christopher Ryan 42:48 Right. Yeah, and I mean, you think about these dudes who, you know, come back from war with PTSD.... you know? Again, it's this consciousness, context-dependent behavior-

Joe Rogan 42:58 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 42:59 ... where, you know, they, they do things in that situation, and then they come back to the normal world. It's like coming out of a dream, and, th- it's hard to believe you did that.

Joe Rogan 43:09 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 43:10 You know? It's hard to believe that was you. And how do you-

Joe Rogan 43:12 (coughs)

Christopher Ryan 43:12 ... integrate that into your life with your wife and your kids and Mom and Dad and the neighbors? It's-

Joe Rogan 43:18 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 43:18 I mean-

Joe Rogan 43:19 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 43:19 ... those poor guys. They're dealing with some real heavy shit there.

Joe Rogan 43:22 And no one tells you how to do that, either.

Christopher Ryan 43:24 No. No one knows-

Joe Rogan 43:24 It's not like there's-

Christopher Ryan 43:25 ... how to do it.

Joe Rogan 43:25 Right.

Christopher Ryan 43:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 43:26 And, and no one gives a shit, right? Like, once they get their, you know, get you to go do what they wanna do, then, you know, it's hard to even get, you know, is what? A two-year wait for, uh, any sort of psychological counseling.

Joe Rogan 43:37 Is it really?

Christopher Ryan 43:38 Yeah. It depends on the state, but-

Joe Rogan 43:40 (sighs)

Christopher Ryan 43:40 ... at least that. I had a guy on the podcast, um, actually the one Jamie showed. It was right before the, uh, wingsuit dude, was a, a dude who'd been in Iraq and, uh, and then he came back and worked as a SWAT team commander, you know, so he was, like, doing all sorts of really heavy stuff. And then he, he just got out. And, uh, now he's living off grid in Idaho, raising three little boys with his wife. And he's a former Mormon, so he sort of talked about how his s- you know, Mormonism taught him to respect authority and, and do what-

Joe Rogan 44:16 Mmm.

Christopher Ryan 44:16 ... he was told. And, uh, and you know, that just fed right into his experience in the army and with the police. And, but man, I, I have so much compassion for those guys who get out and, like, look back and say, "What did I do?" You know?

Joe Rogan 44:31 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 44:31 "Who was that guy?"

Joe Rogan 44:32 Right. How, and how they sort of, like, stop that, like, stop the thought process when they come back into civilization-

Christopher Ryan 44:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:43 ... but, but still have the memories.

Christopher Ryan 44:45 And, and how do you trust yourself-

Joe Rogan 44:47 Right.

Christopher Ryan 44:47 ... you know? That I'm not gonna hurt anyone else.

Joe Rogan 44:50 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 44:50 You know? Yeah. It's, it's hard. And, and yeah, like, like we were just saying, they, they get very little, uh, support, you know? They, they're sent off to do this horrible stuff, and then they come back, and it's like, "Okay, now, don't do that anymore."

Joe Rogan 45:06 Yeah. The, the incremental progress that we achieve as a civilization is ... It's amazing, but also so frustratingly slow that no one, I mean, no one I've ever talked to, thinks there's gonna be a moment in our lifetime where there's no war. No one. No one thinks there's gonna be a moment in our lifetime where there's no murder. No one thinks there's gonna be a, a moment in our lifetime where there's no rape, where we just h- we just figure it out. Like, I'm pretty confident if it was just the three of us forever, no one would rape anybody. No one would murder anybody.

Christopher Ryan 45:37 Well, just the three of us? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:38 Just the three of us. (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 45:38 I sure hope not. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:40 But you know what I'm saying?

Christopher Ryan 45:41 Because I'm probably the other, the victim here. I don't-

Joe Rogan 45:43 Like, do you know what I'm saying?

Christopher Ryan 45:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:44 Like, what, what number of people ha- have w- how many people do they have to be-

Christopher Ryan 45:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:49 ... before one of those things becomes a possibility?

Christopher Ryan 45:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:52 Like, what, what i- if you have a group of close friends, a group of, group of close friends who are good communicators and good, honest, healthy, friendly people can live together. And-

Christopher Ryan 46:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:02 ... you know, whatever issues you might have with someone not doing the dishes or someone forgetting to put back your lawnmower or whatever the fuck it is, you could work that out. S- it's no big deal.

Christopher Ryan 46:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Like, what is, what's the number of people?

Christopher Ryan 46:14 150.

Joe Rogan 46:15 Okay, right.

Christopher Ryan 46:16 That's Dunbar's number.

Joe Rogan 46:17 Dunbar's number. Yeah. (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 46:18 Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you've heard about that.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Yeah, I mean, that might really be it. That might be real- really be what we're programmed for.

Christopher Ryan 46:22 Well, that's what hunter-gatherer, that's where hunter-gatherer groups always splinter.

Joe Rogan 46:26 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 46:26 Where they never get beyond that. And I think that's why because, uh, you know, a hunter-gatherer group, which is egalitarian and sharing and cooperative and all that, uh, by necessity, right? 'Cause that's how our ancestors survived is by taking care of each other, mitigating risk. Um, you need reputational damage. And if everyone doesn't know everyone, reputational damage n- is no longer effective. So, if you ... Let's say you go and you're, you're a good hunter and you kill an antelope and then you don't share it and you just keep it for yourself, that's not gonna go over real well with the hunter-gatherer group.

Joe Rogan 47:05 Right.

Christopher Ryan 47:05 You're, you're gonna be, uh, ridiculed, chastised, maybe expelled from the group, maybe have a hunting accident and die, uh, because that hoarding, selfish behavior is extremely taboo in a hunter-gatherer society.

Joe Rogan 47:20 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 47:20 Whereas, you know, you look at our society, uh, where reputational damage is no longer, uh, functional outside of your group of friends. As long as you're good to your friends, your golfing buddies, you can screw the rest of the world. Yo- you can not pay your contractors for years-

Joe Rogan 47:38 Right, right.

Christopher Ryan 47:38 ... and become president.

Joe Rogan 47:40 Right.

Christopher Ryan 47:40 You know? Everyone-

Joe Rogan 47:40 (laughs) Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 47:41 Everyone in New York-

Joe Rogan 47:42 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 47:42 I, I worked in real estate in New York in the '80s. Everyone knew who that guy was and what-

Joe Rogan 47:47 Right.

Christopher Ryan 47:47 ... he was up to and that you couldn't trust him, he was full of shit, and that he ripped everybody off. And, but that's how business works in New York. Even the, the company I was working for, it was really interesting to see how your leverage, uh, increased when you owed somebody a lot of money. You know? There's, there's that-

Joe Rogan 48:07 Of course.

Christopher Ryan 48:07 ... truism if you owe someone five bucks, you have a problem. If you owe them a million bucks, they have a problem.

Joe Rogan 48:12 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 48:12 You know?

Joe Rogan 48:13 Right, right, right.

Christopher Ryan 48:13 You really see that. But yeah, I th- I think it's 150 is, is the cutoff for how many people we can keep track of, I think. Dunbar's number has proved to be pretty accurate.

Joe Rogan 48:24 Well, it seems to be what we're, what we evolved-... to, sort of, be accustomed to, right?

Christopher Ryan 48:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:30 That's the-

Christopher Ryan 48:31 Well, that's the neocortex.

Joe Rogan 48:32 The number of people. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 48:33 That's, you know, Dunbar was looking at the, the brain anatomy of different primates, and by looking at the proportion of a neocortex to the rest of the brain, he predicted the maximum social size of those primates, of each of the species.

Joe Rogan 48:47 Wow.

Christopher Ryan 48:48 And that's how he came to the e- estimate of 150 for humans. And then they went and looked at pe- the, they did, uh, you know, data collection.

Joe Rogan 48:56 That's so crazy.

Christopher Ryan 48:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:58 That they can do the, the physical size of something like that, that there, there's a direct correlation. Like, like the direct correlation between the size of, uh, of primate's testicles and the amount of promiscuous females in the area.

Christopher Ryan 49:08 You've read Sex at Dawn, Joe.

Joe Rogan 49:09 Yes, I have. (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 49:11 (laughs) Finally.

Joe Rogan 49:13 I read it a long time ago, man. I read it a long time ago.

Christopher Ryan 49:16 Uh, I'm thinking I might do, uh ... I did the audiobook of Civilized to Death, which I, I really enjoyed that process. I'm thinking I might do a 10th anniversary director's cut audiobook of Sex at Dawn.

Joe Rogan 49:28 Did you do the audio version?

Christopher Ryan 49:29 No.

Joe Rogan 49:29 Who did?

Christopher Ryan 49:30 Actors.

Joe Rogan 49:31 Oh, yuck.

Christopher Ryan 49:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:32 Oh, yuck.

Christopher Ryan 49:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:33 My friend Steve Rinella, he wrote a book on buffalo, the American buffalo, you know, just the history of buffalo in this country. And, um, someone else wrote it, and he finally got the rights back, and he-

Christopher Ryan 49:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:43 ... he did it himself now.

Christopher Ryan 49:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:44 But it just killed-

Christopher Ryan 49:45 That's, that's what I'm gonna do.

Joe Rogan 49:45 ... killed him because the person who read it w- was, like, a soap opera actor.

Christopher Ryan 49:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 49:50 Had no connection to the material at all.

Christopher Ryan 49:54 And in Sex at Dawn, there's a lot, there are a lot of jokes and, and, you know-

Joe Rogan 49:57 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 49:57 ... sort of wry asides and stuff, and the people who read it, they, they don't get it. They didn't get-

Joe Rogan 50:02 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 50:02 ... the humor. So it's just the straight ahead ... It's as if, you know, someone took your comedy material and just read it in a monotone. It's like-

Joe Rogan 50:10 That's called-

Christopher Ryan 50:10 ... come on.

Joe Rogan 50:11 ... criticizing me in a blog. (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 50:13 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:13 That's what they do. Someone takes it and just puts it in quotes like that.

Christopher Ryan 50:18 Yeah. Yeah, good point. Yeah, there's no delivery there.

Joe Rogan 50:21 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 50:21 There's no voice. It's ... Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that, and I think I'm gonna ... I don't know if Steve did this or not, but I think I'm gonna, as I said, a director's cut. So I'll, I'll, you know, when I read a paragraph that reminds me of something or, uh, you know, what I thought when I wrote that or, you know, my dad really wanted me to include that phrase or, you know, whatever little asides. So there'll be some commentary as well-

Joe Rogan 50:43 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 50:43 ... I think.

Joe Rogan 50:43 Yeah, that's a good move.

Christopher Ryan 50:45 Yeah,

Narrator 50:45 I appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 50:45 David Goggins had a really interesting way he did his. He did his book where, uh, he actually didn't read it. He had a friend read it, um, and then in between paragraphs, they discussed all the different events-

Christopher Ryan 50:58 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:59 ... that happened that he talked about, and he gave other details that weren't in the book.

Christopher Ryan 51:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 51:03 So the audiobook is essentially like an audiobook/podcast. (coughs)

Christopher Ryan 51:08 Yeah. Yeah, so you're not just getting a reading of the book. You're getting bonus material-

Joe Rogan 51:13 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 51:13 ... as well. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Yeah, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 51:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:15 It's, it's really good. It's really good. That's ... Yeah, I mean, there's no rules with that kinda stuff, you know? It's your book.

Christopher Ryan 51:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 51:23 You can kinda do whatever you want, and you could even talk about how you feel now about-

Christopher Ryan 51:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:28 ... that chapter.

Christopher Ryan 51:29 Sure.

Joe Rogan 51:29 You could always do that.

Christopher Ryan 51:29 What I would change.

Joe Rogan 51:30 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 51:31 You know? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:32 Or how you feel about the material itself and what h- yeah, how you interact with the facts that you uncovered versus before.

Christopher Ryan 51:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:39 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 51:39 Do you ... There was a ... I don't listen to audiobooks much, but in the van last summer, I listened to the, uh, Keith Richards autobiography.

Joe Rogan 51:48 Oh, yeah?

Christopher Ryan 51:48 Yeah. It was r- it was interesting. He reads, like, the beginning, and then this actor who sounds like him-

Joe Rogan 51:55 Oh, no.

Christopher Ryan 51:55 ... you know, has the same accent, uh, reads most of it, and then Johnny Depp reads a couple of chapters.

Joe Rogan 52:01 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 52:02 And then Keith comes back at the end.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Well, that was one of the weird things about Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, was Johnny Depp reading Hunter Thompson. And then, in a way ... You know, honestly, did a better job of reading Hunter Thompson than Hunter Thompson has done reading Hunter Thompson.

Christopher Ryan 52:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:21 You know, there's that famous speech about-

Christopher Ryan 52:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:23 ... being there at the end of the '60s and watching the waves pull back.

Christopher Ryan 52:28 Sure.

Joe Rogan 52:28 You know, you know that ... Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 52:29 It, it crested at the Rocky Mountains-

Joe Rogan 52:31 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 52:31 ... and then rolled back into the sea.

Joe Rogan 52:33 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 52:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:33 That's a fantastic speech, but the way Johnny Depp said it was better.

Christopher Ryan 52:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:38 Like, he-

Christopher Ryan 52:39 Have you ever seen Breakfast with Hunter?

Joe Rogan 52:40 Yes.

Christopher Ryan 52:41 Do you remember? He freaks out about that particular-

Joe Rogan 52:44 Yes. Yes.

Christopher Ryan 52:44 ... passage 'cause, who was it? Alex P-

Joe Rogan 52:47 Well, they were gonna animate it.

Christopher Ryan 52:48 They were gonna animate it.

Joe Rogan 52:49 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 52:49 Yeah, and he fucking pulls out the gun and kicks him off the property-

Joe Rogan 52:52 Yeah. (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 52:53 ... and totally loses his shit. "You're gonna take the best thing I've ever written and make it a fucking cartoon?" Yeah, oh my God.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

Christopher Ryan 53:00 Yeah, it was-

Joe Rogan 53:00 That guy used to go off. He was so crazy.

Christopher Ryan 53:03 Did you ever meet him?

Joe Rogan 53:04 No. I'm angry, angry that I never met him.

Christopher Ryan 53:07 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:09 I would've loved to have met him.

Christopher Ryan 53:10 Yeah, and you prob- there were probably a few years there where-

Joe Rogan 53:12 I could've.

Christopher Ryan 53:13 ... you could've, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:14 Yeah. Fuck.

Christopher Ryan 53:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:15 There's a few people. Dick Gregory, he's one that I really wish I met.

Christopher Ryan 53:18 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:19 I would've loved to talk to him about what it was like to show the Kennedy assassination footage on Geraldo Rivera, like, 10 plus years after the fact, you know, the, the Zapruder film?

Christopher Ryan 53:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:30 He introduces the Zapruder film to the world.

Christopher Ryan 53:32 Really?

Joe Rogan 53:33 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 53:33 Dick Gregory is, like, a-

Joe Rogan 53:34 Comedian, activist.

Christopher Ryan 53:35 ... a, a Black comedian.

Joe Rogan 53:36 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 53:37 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:37 Slash activist.

Christopher Ryan 53:38 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:39 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 53:39 I remember him.

Joe Rogan 53:39 Yeah, he brought the Zapruder film to, uh, Geraldo Rivera, and they played the Kennedy assassination on television.

Christopher Ryan 53:49 No shit. It hadn't been seen-

Joe Rogan 53:50 No.

Christopher Ryan 53:50 ... publicly.

Joe Rogan 53:51 No.

Christopher Ryan 53:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:51 Not only it had not been seen publicly, I believe Time Magazine owned it. I think they bought the rights to it, so see, see if that's true, and, uh, they shelved it for-

Christopher Ryan 54:01 Whoa.

Joe Rogan 54:01 ... I wanna say 12 years. It was, like, '75 when it aired on television.

Christopher Ryan 54:09 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:10 Somewhere in that range. And, you know, the assassination was '63.

Christopher Ryan 54:15 60 ... Was it '63? Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:16 I think it was '63.

Christopher Ryan 54:17 I was born in '62. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:20 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 54:20 I guess it was right after I was born, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:22 And so no one had seen his head go back and to the left-

Christopher Ryan 54:25 Oh.

Joe Rogan 54:26 ... until that footage, and then people were like, "Wait, what the f-"

Christopher Ryan 54:30 Really?

Joe Rogan 54:31 Which doesn't necessarily mean-

Christopher Ryan 54:32 So how did Dick Gregory get the rights?

Joe Rogan 54:35 I do not remember.

Christopher Ryan 54:36 Huh.

Joe Rogan 54:36 I think-... uh, I don't remember.

Christopher Ryan 54:39 Who else? Have you met Werner Herzog?

Joe Rogan 54:41 I have not. No, I'd love to.

Christopher Ryan 54:41 Are you into him?

Joe Rogan 54:42 Yes, yes.

Christopher Ryan 54:43 He's a, he's a character-

Joe Rogan 54:44 Grizzly Man is one of my all-time favorite movies.

Christopher Ryan 54:46 Yeah. Me too.

Joe Rogan 54:48 (laughs) It's one of the best unintentional comedies ever-

Christopher Ryan 54:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:51 ... but I don't think it's particularly unintentional. There's a fucking moment in that-

Christopher Ryan 54:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:55 ... film where the sheriff, when the sheriff's talking about, like, the body and they car- carrying the body off in bags-

Christopher Ryan 55:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:00 ... he's like, "W- you know, what did you think?" "Well, first time I heard about it, I thought he was retarded."

Christopher Ryan 55:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:05 And then the ca- just has a smash cut to the sheriff's face, and I'm fucking howling.

Christopher Ryan 55:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:10 I'm howling laughing. And I'm like, "This guy did this on purpose." Like, there's so many cuts in this movie that are so humorous-

Christopher Ryan 55:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:18 ... I gotta think that... And Werner Herzog, have you ever heard him on Eric Weinstein's podcast?

Christopher Ryan 55:23 No.

Joe Rogan 55:23 Brilliant guy. Real-

Christopher Ryan 55:24 Oh, yeah, he's-

Joe Rogan 55:25 Really interesting, intense guy.

Christopher Ryan 55:28 And very dark sense of humor.

Joe Rogan 55:30 Oh, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 55:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:31 Yeah. Well, that's why I thought, I was like, "This motherfucker did this on purpose."

Christopher Ryan 55:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:35 "He made this a comedy."

Christopher Ryan 55:38 So, do you think that... What was the name of the character? Timothy Treadwell?

Joe Rogan 55:41 Yes.

Christopher Ryan 55:42 Is that... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:42 Yes.

Christopher Ryan 55:44 When I watched that movie, my feeling was this guy is a closeted-

Joe Rogan 55:48 Yes.

Christopher Ryan 55:48 ... gay dude.

Joe Rogan 55:49 100%.

Christopher Ryan 55:50 Yeah, you felt that too?

Joe Rogan 55:51 No question.

Christopher Ryan 55:51 Okay.

Joe Rogan 55:51 He brings up, "If I was gay, it would be easy."

Christopher Ryan 55:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:55 "But I'm not gay."

Christopher Ryan 55:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:56 That's what he says. Because you see, "Why can't I find a girl?" You know, he's, like, walking through the woods-

Christopher Ryan 56:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:01 ... with this, like, lispy gay way of talking.

Christopher Ryan 56:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:04 And he's talking to the g- for people who don't know what this documentary is about, it's about a guy named Timothy Treadwell. And Timothy Treadwell was, uh, well, I guess you could say he was a bear expert, but not really.

Christopher Ryan 56:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:14 Because the real bear experts were like, "This guy doesn't know what the fuck he's doing."

Christopher Ryan 56:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:18 "He should get out of there."

Christopher Ryan 56:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:20 Like, "What he's doing is rid- he doesn't need to protect these bears. He's pretending that he's protecting these bears, and he's living with them." I think there was a certain element of it that was Suicide by Bear.

Christopher Ryan 56:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:29 I really do. And he was walking through the woods holding this camcorder, getting film, going, "If I was gay, it would be so easy."

Christopher Ryan 56:36 Right, talking to the camcorder-

Joe Rogan 56:38 "But I'm not gay." Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 56:38 ... as his only friend-

Joe Rogan 56:39 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 56:39 ... 'cause he was out there alone for-

Joe Rogan 56:41 Months at a time.

Christopher Ryan 56:41 ... uh, yeah, every summer.

Joe Rogan 56:42 But no one who's not gay says, "Well, if I was gay, it would be really easy." Unless you're-

Christopher Ryan 56:47 I've said that a lot, Joe.

Joe Rogan 56:48 But unless you're being funny-

Christopher Ryan 56:49 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:49 ... with a friend-

Christopher Ryan 56:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:50 ... like, "Well, if I was gay, I would just hook up with some dudes."

Christopher Ryan 56:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:53 But he's saying it like, "Why can't I find a girl? If I was gay, it'd be so easy." No, it wouldn't. You're still living in the woods with monsters.

Christopher Ryan 57:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:00 You gonna get a bunch of gay guys? Gay guys, they wanna be in Boys Town, okay?

Christopher Ryan 57:03 I think they should remake the movie in a bear bar.

Joe Rogan 57:07 (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 57:07 (laughs) On Broadway.

Joe Rogan 57:10 That would be hilarious.

Christopher Ryan 57:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:11 That would be hilarious.

Christopher Ryan 57:12 Grizzly Man.

Joe Rogan 57:12 If they inst- Yeah, instead of doing it with the forest and actual grizzly bears-

Christopher Ryan 57:18 Right. In the West Village.

Joe Rogan 57:19 ... have it... Yeah, yeah. "If I was gay, it'd be easy. There's bears everywhere." (laughs)

Christopher Ryan 57:25 (laughs) I went to a bear bar with Andrew Sullivan and Dan Savage.

Joe Rogan 57:29 There's, there's actually a bear bar?

Christopher Ryan 57:30 Oh, there are lots of bear bars.

Joe Rogan 57:32 They call them bear bars?

Christopher Ryan 57:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:33 Oh, that's hilarious.

Christopher Ryan 57:33 Yes. And for people who don't know what we're talking about, bears are big, hairy-

Joe Rogan 57:38 Gay guys.

Christopher Ryan 57:38 ... gay guys.

Joe Rogan 57:39 Think Tom Segura and Bert Kreischer.

Christopher Ryan 57:41 (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 57:42 They have a, they do a podcast-

Christopher Ryan 57:43 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 57:43 ... called Two Bears, One Cave.

Christopher Ryan 57:44 Oh, do they? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:45 Yes.

Christopher Ryan 57:45 That's hilarious.

Joe Rogan 57:46 Yeah, but neither one of them is gay, but-

Christopher Ryan 57:48 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:48 ... beside the point.

Christopher Ryan 57:49 But if they were gay, they'd be bears.

Joe Rogan 57:51 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 57:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, bears.

Joe Rogan 57:54 Dan Savage is a trip. I've had him on the podcast before.

Christopher Ryan 57:56 Yeah. Yeah, I know, I saw that. That was interesting.

Joe Rogan 57:58 He's an interesting guy.

Christopher Ryan 57:59 He's, he's super smart-

Joe Rogan 58:01 Yes.

Christopher Ryan 58:01 ... and funny as shit.

Joe Rogan 58:03 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 58:03 And, and he's armed with nothing but a sense of humor and a great intellect and a big heart. He's-

Joe Rogan 58:10 And honesty.

Christopher Ryan 58:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:11 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 58:11 He's changed the world.

Joe Rogan 58:13 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 58:13 He saved who knows how many lives. You know, he's a, he's beautiful. I really like Dan a lot.

Joe Rogan 58:18 Yeah, when someone can just be themselves, again, you know, that's who he is. And-

Christopher Ryan 58:23 Timothy Treadwell, if he had listened to Dan Savage-

Joe Rogan 58:26 Yes, yes.

Christopher Ryan 58:26 ... everything would be different.

Joe Rogan 58:27 Well, that leap, man, that coming out leap, fuck, it's gotta be so hard for people. I, I know several guys that are closeted, and it's torturous.

Christopher Ryan 58:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:37 Torturous to see. And one of them d- s- you know, I've talked to him. I was like, "Just come out, man. No one gives a fuck. We don't care."

Christopher Ryan 58:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:45 "No one cares. You'll, you'll, it'll be a giant relief."

Christopher Ryan 58:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:49 Just, they worry about... Especially c- you know, actors.

Christopher Ryan 58:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:52 You know, they worry about their careers.

Christopher Ryan 58:53 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, wha- (laughs) You know, when your career's more important than the, the integrity of yourself.

Joe Rogan 59:01 But I don't think it hurts who- I don't believe it. Uh-

Christopher Ryan 59:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:03 ... I don't believe it. The only thing that would hurt with actors is leading man roles.

Christopher Ryan 59:08 Yeah, Rock Hudson kind of guy.

Joe Rogan 59:10 Yeah, leading-

Christopher Ryan 59:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:10 That's one thing that's fucking real. Like, if you're a... Like, I don't know if Tom Cruise is gay, but that's always been th- a s- a stupid rumor, right?

Christopher Ryan 59:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:18 Let's, like, let's assume it's true.

Christopher Ryan 59:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:20 If he did come out of the closet, man, nobody wants to go see a movie where he's the leading man and he's got a wife and kids. You'd be like, "That guy's sucking dick!"

Christopher Ryan 59:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:27 Like, he would (laughs) he would, he would never buy into it. That's the w-

Christopher Ryan 59:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:30 Like, a, a gay woman, like Jodie Foster, okay-

Christopher Ryan 59:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:33 ... could easily play a straight woman-

Christopher Ryan 59:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:36 ... in a movie, and no one would care.

Christopher Ryan 59:38 Sure. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:38 It'd be fine. But when a gay... That's the, that is the fucking glass ceiling in Hollywood. It's one of them, right? When a, a gay man comes out of the closet, those roles, John Travolta or whatever it is, whoever, whoever it would be. And I don't know if he's gay either, but if he was, that's the fucking... That's, that's where the buck stops. You cannot be-

Christopher Ryan 59:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:57 ... the leading man who's the married guy with kids.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Or the, the hot man who's, you know, in a sexual relationship with a woman if we know that you're having sex with men.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:07 But then it's funny, right? We can watch straight actors pretend to be gay. Like, Burt-

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 Sure.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:12 ... Black Mountain.

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Sure.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:13 That's no problem.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Sure.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 No problem.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:16 Yeah, very strange.

Joe Rogan 1:00:17 Yeah, it's, uh, it's... That's one of the last open prejudices that we all accept, because no one's been able to bridge that gap. Except, what's that dude's name? That fucking's got three names? Little skinny guy? Used to be on a sitcom, How I Met Your Mother?

Jamie Vernon 1:00:36 Oh. Neil Patrick Harris.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 Yeah, that guy.

Jamie Vernon 1:00:38 Doogie Howser.

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 Doogie Howser.

Jamie Vernon 1:00:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Yeah, that guy. He's openly gay. And didn't he play a womanizer on a sitcom?

Jamie Vernon 1:00:43 ... I think, on How I Met Your Mother. It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie Vernon 1:00:45 ... I've never watched it, but-

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 But the thing about sitcoms is they're like plays. Like, those kinda sitcoms in front of an audience, they're horse shit.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:52 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 You know? It's like, it's not, it's not like a movie.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 It's horse shit. You know, you know it's horse shit. Everyone knows it's horse shit.

Christopher Ryan 1:00:59 Anything with a laugh track-

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:00 ... I'm very suspicious, or, or studio audience.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Like Happy Days. Like, I love Henry Winkler.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 But the Fonz.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Like, that's horse shit.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:07 No, wait. Is Henry Winkler gay?

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 No. I don't think so. Maybe. I have no idea.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:11 I always assumed he was.

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 Uh-

Christopher Ryan 1:01:12 ... 'cause he was so overcompensating with the Fonz.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 I think that was a character.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 If you meet him in real life, he is the nicest guy I've ever met.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:19 Yeah. He's in that-

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 He's so friendly.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:20 ... he's in Barry now, right? He's, he's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 (clears throat) Is he?

Christopher Ryan 1:01:22 Yeah. He's ... Plays an acting coach in Barry. I haven't seen it. Like, I hear it's great.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 I've never seen Barry. He's a, uh, fly fisherman.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:29 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 He wrote a book on fly fishing, and I think the book's called I Never Met an Idiot on the River.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:35 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 'Cause, like, there's something about fly fishing, and fly fishing is a very weird pursuit, because a lot of it is catch and release.

Christopher Ryan 1:01:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 Which, as a person who enjoys the outdoors and enjoys eating fish that I catch, I'm very torn on that activity, that catch and release activity. I know it's fun, and I have done it. I get it. But it's weird. It's weird. You're sticking a hook through an animal's face.

Christopher Ryan 1:02:03 I was gonna say, it traumatizes the fish. It's got to.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 They got a mem-

Christopher Ryan 1:02:07 How many of them die?

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 Uh, well, fly fishing, very few-

Christopher Ryan 1:02:11 Ah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 ... because you're dealing with barbless hooks for the most part.

Christopher Ryan 1:02:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 So it just goes into this cartilage in their mouth. They don't really feel, and then ... Allegedly don't really feel. I don't know if they feel it.

Christopher Ryan 1:02:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 And then, you know, they pull it out, and they're fine. But there's some catch and release, especially with, like, three-pronged barbed hooks, where the animals definitely die.

Christopher Ryan 1:02:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 You know, they get, they get caught in their gills, and they start bleeding from their gills, and then you have to release them anyway 'cause it's ... You know, in some places, the regulation is catch and release.

Christopher Ryan 1:02:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 But people love doing it. They find, like, peace, like, drifting a fly past this area where the fish is w- lying dormant, and then you pull the fly. And then the fish grabs it, and then you got him. Oh, boy.

Christopher Ryan 1:02:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 But you're tapping into this sort of primal reward system that you have in your DNA that makes you want to, uh, catch these fish, but then you're letting it go.

Christopher Ryan 1:02:59 Well, it gives you a reason to be out by the river.

Joe Rogan 1:03:02 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:03:02 Out in the morning. Nor- normally-

Joe Rogan 1:03:04 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:03:04 ... it's morning or dusk-

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:03:05 ... when the flies are landing. I, I think a lot... I've been hunting bi- since the last time-

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 Really?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:09 ... you and I spoke. Yeah. Uh, bow hunting.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 You went bow hunting?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:13 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, on Hawaii, Big Island.

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 Oh, you ...

Christopher Ryan 1:03:16 I actually went on two trips.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 Didn't you go with, uh, Kyle Kingsbury-

Christopher Ryan 1:03:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:19 ... and Ben Greenfield and all those guys?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:20 That was a deer, uh, axis deer trip to Molokai.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 You have a bow?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:25 I do.

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 How, how do you ... How often do you practice?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:28 Uh, since I went hunting, not much, but before I went, every day. Yeah. I was, I was into it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 Did you have a coach?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:35 Nope. Uh, I had some friends who, you know, uh, helped me out, and, um, I watched some, you know, uh, Cam, your buddy-

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 Cam Harran?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:43 Yeah, I watched some of his videos.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 Cam Haines. (clears throat)

Christopher Ryan 1:03:46 Um, but, uh, yeah. It was an, it was an interesting experience. So first I went on that, uh, trip with, um, yeah, Peter ...

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 Atia?

Christopher Ryan 1:03:55 ... Atia and Ben Greenfield.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:03:57 Like, all these podcast human optimization guys.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Who set, who set that whole thing up?

Christopher Ryan 1:04:01 Uh, my buddy Kyle Tirman. He's a big wave surfer.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Oh, okay.

Christopher Ryan 1:04:05 Uh, he spends a lot of time in Hawaii, and he knows a lot of people there. Uh, Healey? Geoff Healey, I think?

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:04:12 Big, big surfer dude. Anyway, so he knew all these people, and I guess, uh, uh, Aubrey and some other ... those guys sort of asked him to hook them up with a trip.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 1:04:23 And so he put it all together, and then at the last minute, I think Aubrey couldn't go, I think 'cause you were coming down to Austin, and he wanted a- to, you know, coordinate with you or something. So, they said, "Yo, Chris, if you want to go, it's, it's all paid for."

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 1:04:38 And I'm like, "Helicopters? Hawaii? Fuck yeah."

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 So did you have to practice leading up to that? Or were you already shooting a bow?

Christopher Ryan 1:04:45 I was already shooting because, uh, we had, uh, my ... Uh, Kyle and I, Kyle Tirman and I, had already planned a trip, uh, for, like, three weeks after that.

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 Oh.

Christopher Ryan 1:04:57 So I was already practicing for that, which was gonna be a pig hunting trip on the Big Island. Um, but then I went on this deer thing. But mainly, I went on the deer thing just 'cause it was an opportunity to fly around in helicopters-

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:09 ... and see Molokai, which is amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:05:11 Right.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:11 But I didn't hunt on that, 'cause I didn't ... Honestly, I didn't want to, um, hurt anything.

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:18 You know? I, I wanted to-

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Didn't feel like you were competent enough with a ...

Christopher Ryan 1:05:21 No.

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Or you didn't want to do it at all?

Christopher Ryan 1:05:22 And the ... Well, and the deer are farther away, and they're much harder. Uh, they're much more aware, and like, stalking them is a lot harder. And so I just basically hung out and had a good time.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 They're so hard.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 They're so ... Th- that animal, axis deer, is, uh, an animal that evolved, uh, to get away from tigers.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 They're, they're the fastest thing I've ever hunted.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 By far.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:44 Super alert.

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 I hunted them with Cam Hanes and, um-

Christopher Ryan 1:05:47 On Molokai?

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 No, on Lanai.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:49 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 And, um, John Dudley just, uh, just before you guys went.

Christopher Ryan 1:05:53 Oh, right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 And we were there. Between the time we were there and the w- when we were there the last spring, there was 150 hunters that went there to bow hunt. One was successful.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:05 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Everyone else pulled out a rifle.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:08 Huh.

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 Everyone else was like, "Fuck this." Because you can't get anywhere near those goddamn things without them jumping.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:14 Hm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 But if you can get your stalking skills down to where you can sneak up on an axis deer and kill one with a bow, holy shit.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 That's, that's black belt level stuff.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:22 Well, the dudes I went with, Peter Atia, he, he got two or three, I remember.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 He's very, very, very into it.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:30 He's a super, super smart guy.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:31 Yeah. He is.

Joe Rogan 1:06:32 You know?

Christopher Ryan 1:06:32 He's cool, and I, I enjoyed hanging with all those dudes. But then the next, uh, three weeks later, we went, uh ... Kyle and me and Simon Rex. I don't know if you know him.

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:42 He's a-... actor-

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 Slash comedian.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:45 ... slash comedian.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Yeah. Dirt Nasty.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:46 Dirt Nasty rapper.

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:06:48 Yeah. He's a good friend of mine. Anyway, we went, uh, on this pig hunting trip, and that was interesting. That was... You know, I s- I l- I, I wanted to have the experience 'cause I'd never hunted. I'd never killed anything, and I eat meat, so I felt like I have this, you know, responsibility to, to have the experience and confront it and all that. And, um, I was actually the first of our group to, to kill a pig, and, uh, it was strange. I didn't feel sad or traumatized. I felt heightened awareness, you know? Like, um, but I... And I think I might hunt again. I'm, I'm probab- I'm moving to Colorado. I just bought land in Colorado.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 Oh, yeah?

Christopher Ryan 1:07:33 Um-

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 What, what part?

Christopher Ryan 1:07:35 Uh, sorta South Central. It's a tiny little town. Um, and, uh, yeah, it's, it's a interesting area there. But anyway, there's a lot of elk hunting there.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 Mm.

Christopher Ryan 1:07:45 And I'll probably do some elk hunting with local people.

Joe Rogan 1:07:49 You gonna do it with a bow again?

Christopher Ryan 1:07:50 No, I think I'll use a rifle.

Joe Rogan 1:07:52 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:07:52 'Cause-

Joe Rogan 1:07:52 I think that's the way to go-

Christopher Ryan 1:07:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 ... if you're not gonna be completely obsessed and do it every day.

Christopher Ryan 1:07:57 I'm not.

Joe Rogan 1:07:58 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:07:59 Uh, 'cause I don't do that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:00 Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:01 Um, and also, I don't... You know, the thing about a bow is, and maybe this is what you're implying here, if you're not really good, the chances of you ... of an elk running off or a pig running off with an arrow in its ass-

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:14 ... and dying a slow, horrible death is quite high.

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:18 If you hit him with a rifle-

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 Right.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:20 ... high-powered rifle with a scope, you know, and you're in the right range-

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 You can still, you can still wound him, but you're-

Christopher Ryan 1:08:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 It's, you're much more competent with a-

Christopher Ryan 1:08:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:29 ... with a rifle.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:29 And i- it's a better, it's a better meat-gathering tool.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 It's b- bu- good way to, to talk it-

Christopher Ryan 1:08:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 ... de- describe it. And Colorado has, uh, I think twice as many elk as any other state-

Christopher Ryan 1:08:41 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 ... in the country. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:42 Huh.

Joe Rogan 1:08:42 Colorado's one of the best places in the world to elk hunt.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 So that's a good spot if you're looking.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:47 And also, you're taking a life ... You take an elk, that's a lot of meat.

Joe Rogan 1:08:52 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:52 I shot this pig, it was about, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:55 It was a yearling, I think. It's not a lot of meat on a pig that size.

Joe Rogan 1:08:58 No. Yeah.

Christopher Ryan 1:08:59 So, yeah. It's, but it was in- it was interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:09:02 Are you living in this van? Are you le-

Christopher Ryan 1:09:04 No, I have an apartment.

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 ... do you have a place?

Christopher Ryan 1:09:06 I still have an apartment in LA, but I'm about to give it up, I think.

Joe Rogan 1:09:09 Just to just be a nomad?

Christopher Ryan 1:09:11 Yeah, 'cause, I mean, I was in the van all, you know, five months, and it's like, "Okay, I'm paying rent to-"

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 Right.

Christopher Ryan 1:09:17 ... "what?" Like, for, to leave my clothes there, basically.

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 Right.

Christopher Ryan 1:09:20 Like, I don't really need to be doing that.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 No, I, I, I n- admired that sorta nomad sense of life. I, I adm- it's, I don't ever see myself doing it.

Christopher Ryan 1:09:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 But I ... There's a romantic aspect to it that's undeniable.

Christopher Ryan 1:09:33 Well, your life's different, man. You have kids-

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 (clears throat)

Christopher Ryan 1:09:35 ... you know? You're, you're, you have a, a life here that's really ... You've built over a lotta time, you know? I just got here a few years ago.

Joe Rogan 1:09:42 You're kinda a prisoner to that, though, in a certain way. You're a p- a prisoner to, uh, all your obligations. There's just-

Christopher Ryan 1:09:49 Oh, sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 That's one of the things-

Christopher Ryan 1:09:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 ... that's romantic about this nomadic thing that you're doing.

Christopher Ryan 1:09:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:53 It's like, y- you know, "I have to come here. I have a certain amount of podcasts I have to do a week." They're stacking up.

Christopher Ryan 1:09:58 But you don't, Joe. You don't.

Joe Rogan 1:10:00 I don't. I don't, right.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:00 I mean, that's ... I was thinking that. We were talking about the, the, you know, closeted gay actors and what ... What is money worth if you can't buy your freedom with it?

Joe Rogan 1:10:09 Mm-hmm.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:10 Your freedom to be who you are-

Joe Rogan 1:10:11 Right.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:11 ... right? A- as a closeted gay person, right, let's say. Um, y- wha- wha- what is it good for? I mean, that's the first thing.

Joe Rogan 1:10:19 Well, I think with the, the closeted gay folks, the, the real problem is, like, the feeling that you're gonna be rejected if you come out. I think that's entirely different than someone who gets wrapped up in jobs. Like, m- one of the things that I could say about the jobs that I have is that I really do enjoy them. Like, I'm enjoying this conversation. I, I love talking to people.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:37 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 I love doing standup. Love it. And I still enjoy doing the UFC. Those are my three jobs.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:43 And I don't do the UFC as much as I used to.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:46 Would you do them all if you were making 100 grand a year total?

Joe Rogan 1:10:52 Um, I mean, I certainly obviously could live off 100 grand a year.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:55 I mean, if that's what I m- made a year.

Christopher Ryan 1:10:57 So, so the money isn't what makes them fun.

Joe Rogan 1:11:01 No. No, no, no.

Christopher Ryan 1:11:01 It's the s- it's the thing itself.

Joe Rogan 1:11:03 The- definitely.

Christopher Ryan 1:11:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 Well, that's what's made the money. What's made the money is my ... I mean, I think, right? I think it's my enjoyment of the things-

Christopher Ryan 1:11:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:11:12 ... that's made them interesting. Like, uh, one of the things about podcasts, and I think there, it, it, there's, is a parallel in standup, is that genuine enthusiasm, like, real, legitimate enthusiasm is contagious.

Christopher Ryan 1:11:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:25 And,