EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,129 words- 0:00 – 1:51
Hidden acrostic tweetstorm: “Epstein didn’t kill himself” and meme politics
- JRJoe Rogan
Ooh. So Jamie pointed out ... (laughs)
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
This, this, uh, congressman, is that who it is?
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ja- Jamie pointed this out that there's a congressman and he released a series of tweets. And the first letter of all these tweets, if you put them all together, it says, "Epstein didn't kill himself," or "did not kill himself." Is that what it is?
- NANarrator
It's didn't, he did the (bleep) I'll pull it up. (laughs) Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
How do you do the apostrophe?
- NANarrator
Yeah, I can't. So like-
- JRJoe Rogan
You should've gone with "did not."
- NANarrator
... starting here with that evidence of a link. And then there's the E.
- JRJoe Rogan
Rep. Paul Gosar. What are the odds that this guy did this accidentally? R- really small, right?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah. That's kinda like one of those monkey's typing Shakespeare things.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah, I don't think it could, uh, it could work.
- NANarrator
Accidentally.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the thing is, he did it backwards, right?
- NANarrator
I see.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you didn't see what the puzzle was until the last tweet.
- NANarrator
Who caught that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Because the last tweet is an E.
- NANarrator
I got a tweet from someone about 35 minutes ago that I don't know if there's a bunch of people online paying attention to it or what, but someone alerted me and a few other people of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
What, is he, does he have an image of that fucking, that crazy mask? Is that in his shit too? Okay. He's a weirdo.
- NANarrator
Yeah, that might be the H of the-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's got the ...
- NANarrator
But that's all, that was November 1st, so.
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs) The V mask?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what is that mask again? What does it represent?
- MTMatt Taibbi
V for Vendetta.
- 1:51 – 2:38
Epstein’s death as a media “black hole” story
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, this Epstein case is probably the most blatant example of a public murder of, of a crucial witness I've ever seen in my entire life or anybody's ever seen. And the, the, the minimal amount of outrage about this, the minimal-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... minimal amount of cover, it's fucking fascinating.
- MTMatt Taibbi
I mean, I ... What's amazing to me just as a, you know, somebody who works in the media is that this was shaping up to be the biggest, like, news story in history.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
And the instant he, you know, he died, uh, or was died or however you wanna call it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... um, it, the story just fell off the face of the earth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Because it's like nobody's doing anything about it. And I, I don't 100% understand that. I mean, I, I get it why, why that's happening, but it's, uh, it- it's just amazing to watch.
- 2:38 – 4:12
Why news organizations kill stories: incentives, access, and “cellular-level” self-censorship
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, when the woman from ABC ... What was her name?
- NANarrator
Amy ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Amy Rohr ... uh-huh, that lady. The, the one who ...
- NANarrator
Robach.
- JRJoe Rogan
Robach.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Robach, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who had the frustrated moment that she called it, a frustrating private moment.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
When she was talking about having the scoop and having that story and them squashing it.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, this, this is all stuff that everybody used to think was conspiracy. Every- everybody used to think this was stoner talk. This was, you know ...
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You know what I mean? Like, this is, this is stuff where people just delusional, they believe all kinds of wacky conspiracies.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
But the reality is much less complicated. Well, this is not possible. This is one of those things that's so obvious, it's so in everyone's face.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Well, there's a couple things going on 'cause there, there are many different ways this can play out. I mean, you could have a news director who just sort of instinctively decides, "Well, we can't do that story because I might want to have Will and Kate on later," or, "I might want to have this politician on later." And it's, it's not like anybody tells them necessarily that we can't do this, but they-
- JRJoe Rogan
They just decide it's too hot.
- MTMatt Taibbi
If you grow up in this system and you've been in the, the business for a long time y- you just, you have all these things that are drilled into you at almost like the cellular level-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... about what you can and cannot get into. And, um, I think there, but there were some expli- explicit things that happened with Epstein too. I mean, they ... there, there were a lot of news agencies that killed stories about him that, you know, and we're hearing about some of them, Vanity Fair, this thing, you know, so yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's bad.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's terrible.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah, yeah.
- 4:12 – 7:45
What was Epstein really doing? Blackmail theories, intelligence hints, and the mystery money
- JRJoe Rogan
When, when I found out that Clinton flew no less than 26 times on a plane with Epstein, I was like, "Dude, I haven't flown that many times with my mom."
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs) Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
How long did he know Epstein?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah, I, I don't know, but I mean, to have that many flights, to have the Secret Service, uh, people involved, I mean, that's incredibly bold. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
What was he doing? It was just girls? Was, is, is, is Clinton that much of a hound that he would go that deep into the well that many times, 26 times?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Well, that's the thing about the Epstein story that makes no sense to me. Like, I, I thought that the percentage of people who were out and out, like, perverts who had a serious problem, like with pedophilia or whatever it was, was pretty small, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
But you're, but they had a lot of people coming in and out of this compound and, and it just seems like it's a, um, it's a very strange story. What were they really up to? I have, I have no idea. And was, was it all a blackmail scheme? It's just, it's just so strange.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it seems like the pedophilia aspect of it might be directly connected to Epstein himself.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, he might be the one that has a problem with girls that are, like, 16 and he likes them very young or he-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... did like them. But with the other guys, it could just be girls.
- MTMatt Taibbi
It could be, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, that's why it's so crazy. Like, how could it be that these ... but maybe it's not.
- MTMatt Taibbi
But they must ... but they knew who he was.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But they probably didn't know the extent of it.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Probably not, yeah. Uh, uh, up until a point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Up until he was arrested.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then they're like, "Oh." Well, then, then that's when everybody backed off of him, right?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm not 100%-
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't know either.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah. I, I haven't covered this story in depth. I've only, I only really got into it a little bit when-
- JRJoe Rogan
We need you.
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
We need you on this one. You're the guy.
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MTMatt Taibbi
This is a tough one. I mean-
- 7:45 – 8:59
When a conspiracy explanation feels unavoidable: cameras, hyoid bone, and autopsy claims
- JRJoe Rogan
So unfortunate that the cameras died. Uh, so unfortunate he sustained an injury that's, uh, that you usually only get through strangulation.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
When someone murders you.
- MTMatt Taibbi
And he fell on the ground and accidentally broke his hyoid bone.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Happens all the time. (laughs) Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whatever. No big deal.
- MTMatt Taibbi
I mean, it's so bizarre. Um, I, I can't stand cons- conspiracy theories. I'm one of these people who, who doesn't like reading it. But I can't-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... I can't make this story work in a way that isn't, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... conspiratorial in some way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's the thing. It's like, it gets to a point where you're like, "Okay." Even Michael Shermer, who runs Skeptic Magazine-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's like, "Wait a minute. The cameras were not working?"
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah. I mean, it's like a bad excuse.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, "Okay. Well, this, this seems like a conspiracy." Fucking when Michael Shermer says asso-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
He, that guy doesn't believe in anything.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, he is fucking, he's down the line on virtually every single thing that's ever happened. He doesn't believe in any conspiracies.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Well, well, how do you ... What's the innocent explanation for any of this? Yeah, you, you-
- JRJoe Rogan
There's none. It doesn't make any sense.
- MTMatt Taibbi
You can't, you can't spin it in any way to make it not a re- a, a crazy conspiracy theory.
- JRJoe Rogan
Especially when the, the brother hires a doctor to do an autopsy-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and the doctor says-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Baden.
- JRJoe Rogan
... "This guy was fucking murdered."
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- 8:59 – 11:15
Bipartisan scandals don’t sell: the press prefers partisan villains
- MTMatt Taibbi
Craziness. Complete craziness. And, you know, it's, it's an example of, of, um, uh, you know ... The, the Epstein story is interesting because it's, because it's about villains on both sides of the aisle, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
This is a classic ... This is something I've written about before, is that the press does not like to do stories where the problem is bipartisan.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right? So when you have an institutional problem, when Democrats and Republicans both share responsibility for it, when, you know, or, or if it's an institution that kind of exists in perpetuity no matter what the administration is, we don't really like to do those stories. We like ... If ... Fox likes to do stories about Democrats, S- MSNBC likes to do stories about Republicans. But the, the thing that's kind of, you know, all over the place, they don't like to do that story. Epstein is, you know, he's, he's friends with Trump and, and with Clinton. I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... looks like he has more friends on the Clinton side, but still. And I think that's ... this is one of the reasons why this story doesn't have a lot of traction in the media, because neither side really likes the idea of going too deeply on it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Feels like to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's ... But the, the, the blatant aspect of it, the only, I mean, the closest that we have to that is w- uh, absolute murder, the Jamal Khashoggi murder.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's the closest thing we have to where it's like absolute murder.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
This one ... But it, but it's also so insanely blatant, but now you have foreign actors that are involved in it and they all disperse and then there's ... left with this confusion of to who's responsible for it.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Well, uh, y- Saudi Arabia, that's another example where you can't really say it's, you know, one side or the oth- like, uh, both parties have been incredibly complicit in their cooperation with-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... the Saudi regime and in, you know, the massacres that are going on in Yemen. Um, it's a classic example of what Noam Chomsky used to talk about with worthy and unworthy victims, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Like if the c- if the Soviet Communists did it, they were ... that was bad. But if death squads in El Salvador killed a priest or a Catholic priest, you know, then that, that was s- something we didn't write about, 'cause they were our client state. Yemen is a story we don't write about. Syria is a story we do write about, but they're really equivalent stories. And, um, you know, the ... But you're absolutely right. The Khashoggi thing, uh, I don't think either p- party and, or either side's media really wants to get into that all that deeply.
- 11:15 – 13:06
‘Hate, Inc.’ and the new business model: monetizing anger in the internet era
- JRJoe Rogan
How much is media shifting now? Like, you've, you've obviously been a journalist for a long time. Like, how m- how much are things changing in the light of the internet?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Well, a lot. And this is where I'm gonna have a new book out now that's really about this, right? The wh- why the, the business has changed.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's it called?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Hate, Inc. Yeah. It's out, it's out now. And, uh, it's, it's really about how the press, the business model of the press has changed. I mean, you ... It's something that you talk about a lot. You ... I, I hear you on your show a- all the time talking about how, um, uh, news agencies are always trying to push narratives on people, trying to get people wound up and upset. Uh, and that is a conscious business strategy that we didn't have maybe 30 years ago. You know, you think about ...... Walter Cronkite, or what the news was like back in the day. You had the whole family sitting around the table and everybody watching sort of a unifying experience to watch the news.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Now, you have news for the crazy right-wing uncle and then you have news for the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- MTMatt Taibbi
... the kid in the Shea T-shirt-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... and they're different channels and they're trying to wind these- these people up, uh, you know, to get them upset constantly and stay there. And a lot of that has to do with the internet because, um, before the internet, n- news companies had like, a basically free way up to ma- of making money. They dominated distribution. The newspaper was the only thing in town that had a... You know, you, if you wanted to get a want ad, it had to be through the local newspaper. Now, with the internet, the internet is the distribution system. Anybody has access to it, not just the local newspaper. And so, there, th- the easy money is gone and we have to chase clicks more than we ever had, uh, had to before. We have to chase eyeballs more than we had to. So we've had to build new money-making strategies and- and a lot of it has to do with just sort of monetizing anger and division and all these things. And we just didn't do that before, and it's, uh, had a profound difference on- on the- on- on the media.
- 13:06 – 20:16
Narrative-first journalism and the Russia-era pressure to conform
- JRJoe Rogan
As a writer, have you personally experienced this sort of, uh, the influence where people have tried to lean you in the direction of clickbait or perhaps maybe alter titles that make them a little bit disingenuous in order to get people excited about the story?
- MTMatt Taibbi
I mean, you know, I- I ... My editors at Rolling Stone are- are- are pretty good and they- and they give me a lot of we- leeway to kind of explore whatever I want to explore. But I- I definitely feel a lot of pressure that I didn't feel before in the business because ... Especially in the Trump era and- and, you know, I've written a lot about the Russia story, right? But, you know, that's an example of one side's media does ... has one take on it and another side's media has another take on it. And if you are just a journalist and you- and you wanna just sort of pr- report the facts, you feel a lot of pressure to fit the facts into a narrative that your audience is gonna like.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
And I had a lot of problem with the Russia story 'cause I- I thought, you know, I don't like Donald Trump but, I'm like, "I- I don't- I don't think this guy is James Bond consorting with Russian spies. I think he's corrupt in other ways." And there was a lot of blowback on my side of the business, um, because, you know, people in sort of liberal, quote-unquote "liberal media" y- you just have a ... There's a lot of pressure to have everybody fit into a certain narrative, and I think that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... really unhealthy for the business.
- JRJoe Rogan
(smacks lips) Yeah, very unhealthy, right? It's in... 'Cause as soon as people can be manipulated to conforming to that narrative, then all sorts of stories can be shifted.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And- and you ... The- the job used to be about challenging your audience every now and then, right? Like if you think a certain thing is true, well, it's our job to give you the bad news and say that you're wrong about that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
That used to be what the job was, to be-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... a journalist. Now, it's the opposite. Now, we have an audience. We're gonna tell you exactly what you wanna hear and what you... And we're gonna reinforce what you think. And that's very unhealthy. I mean, a- a- a great example of this was in the summer of 2016, um, when I was covering the campaign. I started to hear, um, reporters talking about how they didn't wanna report poll numbers that showed the race was close. They thought that that was gonna hurt Hillary, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Like w- so in other words, we had information that the race was close and we're not telling this to audiences because they wanted to hear that it was gonna be a blowout for Hillary, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Um, and that didn't help Hillary, it didn't help the Democrats-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... to not warn people about this, right? Um, but it was just because if you turned on MSNBC or CNN and you heard that Trump was within five points or whatever it was, that was gonna be a bummer for that audience. So we stayed away from it. And, you know, s- this is the kind of thing that it's- it's not politically beneficial to anybody. It's just we're just trying to keep people glued to the set by telling them what they wanna hear, and that's not the news. That's not our- that's not our job, you know? Uh, and it- it- it drives me crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
(smacks lips) Yeah, it should drive you crazy. That... What you said about journalism being e- used to be something that you're challenging your reader. You're- you're giving them this reality that may be uncomfortable-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but it's- it's educational and expands their view of the world. This ... Where- where do they get that now?
- MTMatt Taibbi
They don't. That's the whole problem. Like, you get- you can predict exactly what the- each news organization, what their take is gonna be on any issue by going... I'll- I'll... Just so you take an example, when, um, (smacks lips) when the business about the ISIS leader, Al-Baghdadi, being killed, um, hit the news. Instantaneously, you knew that The New York Times, CNN, The Washington Post, that they were gonna write a whole bunch of stories about how Trump was overplaying the significance of it, that he-
- JRJoe Rogan
(smacks lips)
- MTMatt Taibbi
... you know, um, that he was telling lies about it. They would- they made- they m- ... You knew they were gonna make the entire thing about Trump, uh, and then meanwhile Fox had a completely different spin on it about how her- heroic it was. But- but news audiences didn't have anywhere to go to- to just simply hear who was this person, why was he important, what were the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... what do the people in the region think, you know. What kind of ... What is this gonna mean going forward? Is it actually gonna have any impact, you know? Uh, uh, uh, is... Are we gonna have to continually, um... You know, is there gonna be a new person like this every- every time, right? Are we actually accomplishing anything? Like, you don't get that anywhere. All you get is Trump is a shithead on one side and- and Trump is a hero on the other side.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
That's- that's not the news, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah.
- 20:16 – 26:32
Algorithms, outrage loops, and the ‘information diet’ problem
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what's really interesting with this, a lot of this is this unpredicted consequence of having these open platforms like Facebook, and, uh, like, where, where people are getting their news, and then the algorithm sort of d- d- directs them towards things that are gonna piss them off. Which, y- I don't even think necessarily was initially the plan. I think the plan is to accelerate engagement, right?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they find out what y- what w- what you're engaging with, what stories you're engaging with, and then they b- give you more of that. Like Ari, my friend Ari Shaffir, actually p- tried this out. And what he did was, he went on YouTube and only looked up puppy videos.
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
And that's all he looked at for, like, weeks.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then YouTube only started recommending puppy videos to him. So it's not necessarily that Facebook wants you to be outraged, but that when you are outraged, whether it's over abortion or war, whatever the subject is, you're gonna engage more, and their algorithm favors you engaging more.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So if you're engaging more about something very positive, you know, if you're all about yoga and meditation, your algorithm would probably favor yoga and meditation 'cause those are the things that you engage with. But it's natural for people to be pissed off-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and to look for things that are annoying, especially if you're done working, and you're like, "God, this world sucks. What's going on that sucks worse?" And then you go to your Facebook and, "Oh, Jesus, look at this goddamn border crisis."
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Oh, Jesus, look at this. Well, fuckin', here's the problem with these goddamn liberal, they don't know sh-" And then you, you engage, and then that's your life. And then it's, it's saying, "Oh, I know how to get Matt Hall fired up. I'm gonna fucking send him some abortion stories. Woo!"
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then that's your feed.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right, yeah, exactly. But the, but there's so many economic incentives that go in there, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
They know that the, the more that you engage, the longer that you're on-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... the more ads-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... that you c- you're gonna see.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right? So that same dynamic that Facebook and, and the social media companies figured out-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... which is that if you keep feeding something, somebody something that, uh, you know, has been proven to spin that person up and get them wound up, that they're gonna, they're gonna come back for more of it, and they're gonna keep coming back. And actually, you can expand their desire to s- to see that stuff by-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... by making them sort of more angry overall. And they will, they will come back and they will spend more and more and more time. Well, the news companies figured out the same thing, and that they, they're just, they're just funneling stuff at you that they know you're gonna, they're, you're, you're gonna just be in an endless cycle of sort of impotent mute rage all the time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MTMatt Taibbi
But it's kind of addicting, you know?
- 26:32 – 41:22
Censorship creep: platform rules, self-censorship, and the power of deplatforming
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah, and when, uh, uh, uh, you know, the, the whole issue of, of a couple of companies like Facebook having control over what you do and do not see-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... is an, is an enormous problem-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... that nobody, nobody really cares about. I've tried to write about it a few times, I've written a couple of features about it and about how, what a serious problem this is. Like if you look in other countries like, um, Israel, uh, China, there, there are a number of companies where you see this, this pattern of internet platforms liaising with the government to decide what people can and cannot see. And they'll, they'll say, "Well, we don't wanna see, you know, the Palestinian protest movements," or, "We don't wanna see," um, you know, the, the Venezuelan channel, TeleSUR, like, "We wanna take that off." You think about how that could end up happening in the United States and it is already a little bit happening.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a little bit, but it seems to be happening only in the terms of like t- leaning towards the progressive side, which people are okay with.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause they think, e- especially in the light of Donald Trump being in office, this is acceptable censorship.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah, but they're, I, you know, I think they're wrong about that.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think they're wrong about that, too.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah, and, and, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's, it's terribly dangerous.
- MTMatt Taibbi
It's very shortsighted.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
And, and they, and, and I think there's, there's also this thing that happens with, um, people where they think, "Oh, this is never gonna happen to me." You know? Like, uh, y- you can do that bad thing to this person that I don't like, but, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MTMatt Taibbi
... as long as it's never gonna happen to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Exactly.
- MTMatt Taibbi
But they're wrong. I mean, history shows it always does happen to you. You know? And that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MTMatt Taibbi
So we're, we're giving these companies an enormous amount of power to decide all kinds of things. What we, what we look at, um, what, what kind of political ideas we can be exposed to, um, you know? It, it, I think it's very, very dangerous.
- JRJoe Rogan
That biased interpretation of what something is, that was what people talked about when the initial Patriot Act was enacted. When people were like, "Hey, this might be fine with Obama in office." Right? If, maybe Obama is not going to i- enact some of the worst clauses of this and use it on people. Or the, um, was it NDAA? Is that what it was?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, where this, some of the things were just completely unconstitutional, they're like, "Don't worry, we're not gonna use those." But you're setting these tools aside for whatever fucking president we have. Like what if we have a guy who out-Trumps Trump?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, we never thought we'd have a Trump, right? What if we have a next level guy post-Trump? What if there's some sort of d- catastrophe, tragedy, attack, something that really gets people fired up and they vote in someone who takes it up to another level?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then he has these tools and then he uses these tools on his political enemies, which is entirely possible.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Well, I mean, we've already seen that a little bit.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 41:22 – 1:08:55
‘Don’t give them a platform’: debating deplatforming, ideas, and backlash dynamics
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you're not supposed to talk to someone... I, I experience this all the time, the, this idea of giving someone a platform.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like y- like if I have someone on, like a Ben Shapiro or someone like that, you shouldn't give that guy a platform. Well, he's already got a platform. Shou- wouldn't it be better if I just talked to him and find out what his ideas are and, and, and ask him about those ideas? Like, we had a very bizarre conversation about gay people, where e- I mean, he's basically full on biblical religious t- interpretation of gay people, which to me is always strange. Like, okay, how do you stand on shellfish, you know? Do... Are y-
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... you just as strong on shrimp-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... as you are on gay guys?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right, pork, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like wh- why is it gay guys? It's that... Like, the Bible's pretty clear on a bunch of different things that don't seem to fire people up the way homosexuality does. Like, why?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do you care? If you had a friend that was eating shrimp, would you go to his house if he had shrimp cocktail? No. But you wouldn't go to a friend's house if he was having a gay marriage.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you won't celebrate gay marriage, but you don't mind a guy who's got a, a fucking, a shellfish platter-
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... out at a party. Like, that's in the Bible, man.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're not supposed to wear two different kinds of cloth. You're... Y- you know? There's a, there's a bunch, there's a bunch of shit in the Bible that you, you're like, "Well, God was wrong about that." Like, how confident are you?
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
How confident are you that you can interpret God's word so perfectly that you're like, you let the lobster slide-
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... but all, all that butt fucking, we gotta stop that.
- MTMatt Taibbi
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? Like, it's really weird.
- MTMatt Taibbi
But that's the whole point is you, you, you challenge the idea, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
But, but the prevailing view now is that even having the discussion-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Because you have a platform, I mean, I read that thing in the Atlan- the Atlantic, you know? Where they were like, you, you, you give people too ... Uh, I forget what the phrase was. They were saying something like, um, "You had-"
- JRJoe Rogan
I give t- people too many chances.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Too many chances, people who had already forfeited their right to have them, or someth- something along those lines, right?
- 1:08:55 – 1:18:30
Comedy under surveillance: why ‘dangerous’ comedy returns (and why it’s fragile)
- MTMatt Taibbi
Also, and, uh, and, and y- y- this must be a, a personal thing for you, but is this... isn't this the unfunniest time in American history? Like, humor has ne-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes and no.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Yeah?
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you're rewarded for, for stepping outside of the box-
- MTMatt Taibbi
That's true.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in a big way.
- MTMatt Taibbi
That's true. Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, yeah, you mean Dave Chappelle gets attacked, but guess what? He also gets rewarded in a huge way.
- MTMatt Taibbi
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
When he goes on stage now, people go ape shit.
- MTMatt Taibbi
That's true.
- JRJoe Rogan
And part of the reason why they go fucking bonkers is because they know that this guy doesn't give a fuck. And he's one of the rare ones who doesn't give a fuck, so when he goes up there, you know if he thinks something crazy about whatever it is, w- whatever protected group or whatever idea that he's not supposed to explore, that's not gonna stop him at all. He's gonna tell you exactly what he thinks about those things regardless of all this woke blowback. He's not... he doesn't care.
Episode duration: 2:05:29
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Transcript of episode 2GJaLAIM1Ho
