Joe Rogan Experience #1393 - James Wilks & Chris Kresser - The Game Changers Debate

Joe Rogan 0:02 All right, here we go. Uh, first of all, um, welcome, James. Good to see you.

James Wilks 0:07 I really appreciate you having me on.

Joe Rogan 0:08 My pleasure. Um, and, uh, welcome again, Chris. Uh, so this is essentially, uh, giving you an opportunity to refute some of the things that Chris has said about your film. We should tell everybody that you... you're the producer of Game Changers?

James Wilks 0:23 Yeah, as one of... I'm one of two producers, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:24 One of two producers. Uh, I know you also from, of course, from The Ultimate Fighter-

James Wilks 0:28 Yep.

Joe Rogan 0:28 ... UFC. And Chris, this is your, what? Fourth appearance here, uh, up like that?

Chris Kresser 0:32 Fourth or fifth, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:33 Th- fourth or fifth. Um, did you get a chance to see what Chris had said?

James Wilks 0:38 Yeah, I've watched it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:38 You watched it, okay, well-

James Wilks 0:39 I've ma- I've made a bunch of notes there.

Joe Rogan 0:41 Excellent. Let's start from the beginning. Um, the beginning of the show, the beginning of your film, you talked about the gladiators and all that stuff, and the, the fact that you were shocked to find out that they, they had eaten a vegetarian diet.

James Wilks 0:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:56 Yeah.

James Wilks 0:56 I mean, and I'll... You know, that's been misrepresented, right? So, even before the film came out, people are like, "Oh, there's this vegan film coming out. It's vegan propaganda." People were judging the film before they'd seen it, right? And the vegan sort of community really pushed it, like, "Hey, look at this documentary." So, there's been things saying, "They claim that the gladiators were vegan," right? "And if we can just prove... They think that the whole film is based on this premise." That was just like an inciting incident for me to start digging into it. First of all, Fabian Kent said they were predominantly vegetarian, and I said they ate mostly plants. And that is what I couldn't believe, right?

Joe Rogan 1:28 Mm-hmm.

James Wilks 1:28 So, they, we didn't claim that they were vegan, didn't even claim that they were vegetarian, they were just fueled mostly by plants. You know, and people say, "Oh, you cherry-picked one location." It was the only known gladiator burial site in the world based on archeological and anthropological data at the time.

Joe Rogan 1:42 At the time where you read the study-

James Wilks 1:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:44 ... 'cause there, there have been other studies that were-

James Wilks 1:45 Well, there's been, there's been some that have been questioned. So, like, there's one in York. There was one in York at the time that had a few gladiator skeletons and it was questioned whether that was the thing. But I'm, I'm happy to address every critique.

Joe Rogan 1:55 Okay.

James Wilks 1:55 But if, if you wouldn't mind, I just wanna make sure that Chris and I are on the same page about how, um, evidence is evaluated.

Joe Rogan 2:01 Sure.

James Wilks 2:01 So, Chris, would you consider yourself a nutrition expert?

Chris Kresser 2:06 Um, no. I would consider myself someone who is adept at reading the literature and, um, learning from experts in nutrition, medicine, anthropology, et cetera. Although, I do have master's-

Joe Rogan 2:21 (coughs)

Chris Kresser 2:21 ... level training in nutrition.

James Wilks 2:24 Okay. So, is it fair to say that any one study cannot show what, you know, the human race should be eating? Is that fair? Any one study?

Chris Kresser 2:32 Absolutely.

James Wilks 2:33 So, basically, any time you show a study, if you say something, you have to give a citation for it, right?

Chris Kresser 2:37 Yeah.

James Wilks 2:37 Is that fair to say? And then someone can claim that that's cherry-picked. 'Cause that, you've got to show a study or some studies, and then someone can claim it's cherry-picked, right? So, what we have to do in order to understand nutrition is look at the totality of the evidence. And I just wanna make sure that we're on the same page, and then we can address each critique, if that's okay. Is that okay?

Joe Rogan 2:52 Sure.

Chris Kresser 2:52 That is-

James Wilks 2:53 Okay.

Chris Kresser 2:53 ... the core of my argument.

James Wilks 2:54 Right, exactly. So, you would say... Is it fair to say, like, there's three main areas? So, there'd be, like, pre-clinical data, which would either be in animals or in test tubes, Petri dishes, right? There'd be observational data where you look at people, um, and see how they're doing. And obviously, there's the healthy user b- uh, healthy user bias potential. And then there's interventional trials, right? So, let's just take trans fats, for example, right? You, you look in a Petri dish at, uh, endothelial cells and trans fats, and it's, you can see that it creates, uh, vascular inflammation in those cells, right? And then you look at people who eat more trans fats and they have higher levels of inflammation. And then you can actually do interventional randomized control trials, and you can tell that trans fats cause inflammation. So, we, we basically all agree that trans fats are bad-

Chris Kresser 3:37 Mm-hmm.

James Wilks 3:37 ... based on all of those data points. Is that fair?

Chris Kresser 3:39 Mm-hmm.

James Wilks 3:39 Okay. So therefore, again, if you look at any one study, people can just, someone can just claim that you're cherry-picking, right? You can just say, "Cherry-picked." Everyone can say that. I could say that you're cherry-picking. You can say that I'm cherry-picking.

Chris Kresser 3:49 Not necessarily because there are meta-analyses and reviews that are shown-

James Wilks 3:54 Sure.

Chris Kresser 3:54 ... for this purpose-

James Wilks 3:55 No, I agree.

Chris Kresser 3:55 ... to look at the totality of evidence.

James Wilks 3:57 Totally agree.

Chris Kresser 3:58 So, if you're in the film, for example, pointing to many meta-analyses that summarize all of the research that's been done on a topic-

James Wilks 4:05 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 4:05 ... then I wouldn't have said that that's cherry-picking.

James Wilks 4:08 Fair enough. I, I agree with that. Okay, so basically, in philosophy, there's this, um, it's a logical fallacy called, uh, appeal to authority, right?

Chris Kresser 4:17 Mm-hmm.

James Wilks 4:17 But in the real world, you know, you have to look at experts that are specialists in their field. So, if I, you know, I just got shoulder surgery not long ago, right? So, I went to a shoulder surgeon. I didn't go to a dentist. If I wanna learn about comedy or, you know, fight announcing, I might come and talk to you, right? If I want to learn about acupuncture or understand chi more, I might come to Chris because you've got a master's degree in traditional Oriental medicine. You're a licensed acupuncturist, right? So, if I want to learn about that, Chris is someone that I might want to go to. So, what I'm saying is, the World Health Organization, the FAO, the, uh, American Heart Association, the two... 2005, uh, '15, 2020 dietary guidelines, are all suggesting to eat predominantly plant-based diets, right? And they're saying that vegetarian and vegan diets are healthier for all life stages, including for pregnancy, uh, childbirth, uh, so through childbirth, uh, breastfeeding, adolescents, athletes, and so on, okay?

Chris Kresser 5:08 And I-

James Wilks 5:08 That's the, that's the general con- consensus. Can I just, just finish this out here?

Joe Rogan 5:11 Sure.

James Wilks 5:12 Okay. And so... And I've got a bunch of slides. If you don't believe anything, I've got a bunch of slides showing the position papers for all of these, uh...

Joe Rogan 5:19 It's okay. Go ahead.

James Wilks 5:19 So we'll skip through that. So, but that's... You, you'd agree that those... Oh, yes or no? Would you-

Chris Kresser 5:23 No, I wouldn't necessarily agree on the-

James Wilks 5:25 Okay, so then let's, let's go to the slides.

Chris Kresser 5:26 ... recommendation of each of those.

James Wilks 5:27 Okay, so can we go to slide one?

Joe Rogan 5:28 But what he's saying is-

Chris Kresser 5:28 Those recommendations change over time and have changed.

James Wilks 5:30 No, they do change over time and they become-

Chris Kresser 5:32 And I would, I would also say that I'm on a predominantly plant-based diet.

James Wilks 5:35 Well, exactly, so, so-

Chris Kresser 5:36 So if you, if you look at-

James Wilks 5:36 ... then what are we arguing about?

Chris Kresser 5:37 If you look at... Two-thirds of my plate is plants.

James Wilks 5:40 Oh, yeah, that's fair.

Chris Kresser 5:40 Well, this was my, this was, this was my point before.

James Wilks 5:43 Yeah, but now you're being unfair. That's really, really unfair because last time you pointed out that the totality of coverage of the plate is not reflective of the calories. You said that on the, on the, on the-

Joe Rogan 5:51 Yeah, but that has nothing to do with what he's saying.

Chris Kresser 5:52 That's not what I'm saying.

Joe Rogan 5:53 He's not talking about calories. He's talking about what is predominantly his diet.

James Wilks 5:56 No, you gotta base it on-

Joe Rogan 5:57 It's mostly plants, but-

James Wilks 5:58 You gotta base it on calories.

Chris Kresser 5:58 So-

James Wilks 5:58 You can't base it on the, the, the, the amount of food.

Chris Kresser 6:00 Why, why would we need to base it on calories? But-

James Wilks 6:02 If you're saying that your diet is predominantly plant-based, then either, one, we're on the same page-... right? 'Cause that's what I'm talking about.

Joe Rogan 6:08 At least for me.

Chris Kresser 6:08 No, we're not because the, the, the main question here, in my mind, is whether there is evidence that supports being on a 100% plant-based diet with no animal products versus a diet that includes a lot of plant foods and some animal foods. That-

James Wilks 6:25 I thought you were critiquing the film which was talking about plant-based diets. So plant-based diets means getting the vast majority of your calories from plants.

Joe Rogan 6:32 Well, if-

James Wilks 6:33 And limiting or excluding animal foods.

Joe Rogan 6:35 An- yeah, but the, the film essentially was all about only eating plants.

James Wilks 6:39 No. Okay. So-

Joe Rogan 6:40 There was no recommendation whatsoever about eating animals.

Chris Kresser 6:44 There was no ex- there were references about how animal products will kill you.

Joe Rogan 6:46 No, there's not... I don't think-

Chris Kresser 6:46 Dairy products will kill you. All, all kinds of different animal foods.

Joe Rogan 6:48 Meat is like cigarettes.

James Wilks 6:50 No, no. That, that, that claim was never made. See-

Joe Rogan 6:52 But there was a connection. There was a con-

James Wilks 6:53 No, there was not.

Joe Rogan 6:54 There was an inferred connection-

James Wilks 6:55 No, there was not.

Joe Rogan 6:56 ... to c- what was the connection to cigarettes then?

James Wilks 6:57 The connection to cigarettes was that the, the way... The playbook that is being used by the... See, that's people are conflating like What the Health and the-

Joe Rogan 7:04 The playbook is the same playbook that they use-

James Wilks 7:06 The playbook is the, the same way they're using athletes and they're using advertising. We never made the claim, which I, that, where the-

Joe Rogan 7:10 Explain that then. Be, be clear.

James Wilks 7:12 Okay. So, the playbook that was used by the, the, uh, smoking industry. So-

Joe Rogan 7:17 Yes.

James Wilks 7:17 ... they pay for studies.

Joe Rogan 7:18 Right.

James Wilks 7:19 Right? And, and we know even with food, right? This has been done with cigarettes, it's been done with drugs, it's been done with food. Research shows that industry-funded studies are four to time, four to eight times more likely to have a conclusion in their favor for their product.

Joe Rogan 7:34 Okay.

James Wilks 7:34 So, this is what the smoking industry did. Then they got doctors to say that smoking wasn't bad, and then they got athletes to show like, "Hey, smoking's good." That was the parallel that we drew. We never drew the, the parallel that was drawn in What The Health so I wanna make that really clear. There was ne- and I've seen this in, in articles saying, "Here, you know, they con- they connected meat..." We didn't do that. Like, if you watch the film, we never said-

Joe Rogan 7:54 Well, why did you? Why did you have that in there though if you're not saying that meat-

James Wilks 7:57 Because they're using the same playbook.

Joe Rogan 7:58 If you're not saying that meat causes cancer, you're saying that they're using the same playbook.

Chris Kresser 8:03 Wait, wait, wait a second. There are some specific claims that chicken, eating chicken and fish causes cancer. Eating dairy causes cancer.

James Wilks 8:09 Yeah, we... Yeah, and-

Chris Kresser 8:09 There are quotes from doctors, vegan doctors in the film.

James Wilks 8:11 I'm happy... No, they're not vegan. That's the other misrepresentation.

Joe Rogan 8:13 (laughs)

James Wilks 8:13 So, can I just go back? Can we just finish the evaluating evidence and then get to each point?

Joe Rogan 8:16 Yes. Yeah, sure.

James Wilks 8:16 'Cause I'm happy to address every critique. So basically, the consensus... And you were saying they're changing over time, they are changing because as we get better at science, they're becoming more... The recommendations are becoming more plant-based despite industry influence from studies and marketing and people being paid off, right?

Chris Kresser 8:30 Industry influence goes both ways. The sugar industry in the '60s did a big expose-

James Wilks 8:35 I agree.

Chris Kresser 8:35 ... pointing the finger at fat as the culprit.

James Wilks 8:37 Right, well, I agree that was... No, I don't think fat is the culprit. So that, that's a, that's a straw man argument that you-

Joe Rogan 8:41 Yeah, but he's not, he's not saying you are saying that. He's saying that-

James Wilks 8:43 No, no. I'm saying the industry is... Yeah, I agree. The sugar industry is terrible and I would agree that... But can I just... Can we just finish the evaluating evidence?

Joe Rogan 8:49 But, but the thing about this section of the film was you were making some sort of a correlation between cigarettes and-

James Wilks 8:58 The way that it was marketed.

Joe Rogan 8:59 The way it was marketed.

James Wilks 9:00 And the way that it-

Joe Rogan 9:00 And then the way meat is marketed.

James Wilks 9:02 Correct.

Joe Rogan 9:03 So, you're just-

James Wilks 9:03 It was the same playbook. It's the same companies, Exponent, but-

Joe Rogan 9:05 But why would you do... You would never do that about, like, carrots or kale or something that's predominantly healthy, right?

James Wilks 9:11 Because they didn't do it. Because they didn't, because they didn't do it.

Chris Kresser 9:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:12 But if you're saying that you, you, you're con- you're connecting the two things. You're connecting something that clearly causes cancer, cigarettes-

James Wilks 9:20 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:20 ... and these studies that were made to show people that it didn't. They were paid off.

James Wilks 9:25 No.

Joe Rogan 9:25 These studies were fake. They were, they were, they were essentially cherry-picked fake studies that were financed by the tobacco industry-

James Wilks 9:31 Correct.

Joe Rogan 9:32 ... in order to get people to buy more cigarettes. You're making this same sort of claim-

James Wilks 9:37 Correct.

Joe Rogan 9:37 ... about meat.

James Wilks 9:37 Correct.

Joe Rogan 9:38 Which means you think that meat is bad for you.

James Wilks 9:40 I do.

Joe Rogan 9:41 Okay. That's... But, but that's where we're... That's where we're at in the past.

James Wilks 9:44 No, we can disagree about that. But, but I'm almost finished with the evaluating evidence.

Joe Rogan 9:48 Okay.

James Wilks 9:48 So, so basically, what we did when we expert... Interviewed the experts is we chose leading experts in their individual fields with collectively with thousands of articles in the peer-reviewed literature, right? So... And this is one of the bummers about the, uh, making a documentary is like you put the lower third on, people don't get to read it. So we had the chair of nutrition at Harvard, the president of the American College of Cardiology, the lead delegate of urology from the American Medical Association, the chair of anthropology at Harvard, the director of energy, uh, environment and resources at Chatham, Chatham House, really respected. So you're talking about vegan doctors, I saw some of them... Some of them are involved in hunting, some of them are involved in animal testing. Um, I, I saw one of them eating a chicken sandwich at lunch. So let's not say that, like, this was a vegan bias coming into it because that's just not true. These doctors-

Joe Rogan 10:33 But we're getting-

Chris Kresser 10:34 So-

Joe Rogan 10:34 We're stretching out here. Yeah. And this is-

James Wilks 10:35 We're, we're talking just about this one section where you're connecting cigarettes and meat. So you're saying that the same sort of-

Joe Rogan 10:43 No. The same playbook is used.

James Wilks 10:43 The same playbook. But there's no evidence that meat is bad for you.

Joe Rogan 10:46 No, this is-

James Wilks 10:47 We can get into that and I'm happy to-

Joe Rogan 10:47 But this is something that's actually recently been established by mainstream medicine. You understand that, right? That they've released new studies... Releasing these new studies saying that there's no longer this concern that red meat causes cancer or that, that even-

Chris Kresser 11:02 Well, th- this is also an appeal to authority.

Joe Rogan 11:03 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 11:03 Because I can find many illustrious doctors and experts who are highly qualified-

James Wilks 11:08 No.

Chris Kresser 11:08 ... that will disagree with your point of view-

James Wilks 11:10 No. But I'm talking-

Chris Kresser 11:10 ... that it, that a diet must be 100% plant-based in order to be healthy.

James Wilks 11:14 I didn't say... Okay, but...

Chris Kresser 11:15 Okay, Jane-

James Wilks 11:16 Can I just say a sec-

Chris Kresser 11:17 Can you clarify your position?

James Wilks 11:18 Okay, I'll clarify-

Chris Kresser 11:18 'Cause I, I wanna know what we're actually debating here.

Joe Rogan 11:19 'Cause you think meat is bad for you.

James Wilks 11:21 I do.

Joe Rogan 11:21 You do?

James Wilks 11:22 So-

Joe Rogan 11:22 And you, you... But you... This was the connection that you made with cigarettes in the film.

James Wilks 11:26 No. Yes. No, I think, I think that-

Joe Rogan 11:28 Well, but here's the thing.

James Wilks 11:28 ... they're both promoting something bad because there's a profit incentive.

Joe Rogan 11:30 So you think that meat is bad for you?

James Wilks 11:32 100%. 100%.

Joe Rogan 11:33 And that you think that they're promoting it knowing that it's bad just for profit?

James Wilks 11:36 Yeah. Okay. So, so all Chris has to do to debunk the film, right, is convince the people watching and listening that he knows more about the consensus and the experts in their field. Like, I would understand if there was a-

Joe Rogan 11:46 No.

Chris Kresser 11:47 This is what you talked about. This is an appeal to authority.

Joe Rogan 11:48 No, I'm not interested. I'm not, I'm actually not that interested in consensus of experts. I'm looking at the research that is published, the peer-reviewed research that is published including meta-analyses and even reviews of meta-analyses that have been done. A perfect example is the whole dairy and cancer section-

James Wilks 12:04 Totally.

Joe Rogan 12:05 ... that we talked about where you had, had argued, or Walter Willett argued that there's...

James Wilks 12:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:09 ... you know, dairy products cause cancer. And I pointed to a meta-analysis that looked at over 150 different reviews-

James Wilks 12:16 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joe Rogan 12:16 ... that f- and 84% of those found no association. So, how is that not part of this discussion where we're talking about-

Chris Kresser 12:25 ... hundreds of scientists across different continents, different countries. They're using peer-reviewed-

James Wilks 12:31 So-

Chris Kresser 12:32 ... science-

James Wilks 12:32 So-

Chris Kresser 12:32 ... to show this, but in, in the movie, just one expert is pointing to, you know, one group of studies without mentioning that. That seems-

James Wilks 12:41 Okay.

Chris Kresser 12:41 ... disingenuous.

James Wilks 12:42 That's, that's a fair point, right? So this is the 2018 meta-analysis. Have you got a slide for that, or ... If not, I've got your slide, 107. Slide 107.

Chris Kresser 12:50 No, this is a 2019 meta-analysis.

James Wilks 12:52 Oh, yeah, 2019.

Chris Kresser 12:53 But-

James Wilks 12:53 153 studies, right?

Chris Kresser 12:54 Yeah, and I can ... We can get-

James Wilks 12:55 Now, I'm really glad you-

Chris Kresser 12:55 We can get-

James Wilks 12:56 I'm really-

Chris Kresser 12:56 ... a lot further into it-

James Wilks 12:57 No, I-

Chris Kresser 12:58 ... 'cause that's not-

James Wilks 12:58 I'd love to.

Chris Kresser 12:58 ... the only one.

James Wilks 12:59 I'd love to. 'Cause at nine o'clock last night, until nine o'clock last night, I thought Chris just made a bunch of mistakes interpreting the data. And I'm gonna show you how he is misleading people on this study. Okay? So if you can bring up slide, uh, 107, Jamie. Uh, is there ... Can we see the slide?

Chris Kresser 13:15 Yeah, yeah. I'll put it up.

James Wilks 13:17 Okay.

Chris Kresser 13:22 Is this it?

James Wilks 13:24 Okay. So you see where he's put in quotes? Okay. "84% of meta-analyses on dairy consumption showed either no association or an inverse association between dairy and cancer." And then you go on to point out what an inverse means is that people who ate more dairy got lower rates of cancer. That's what he's implying. When you put something in quotes, what does that mean to you?

Chris Kresser 13:45 It means that's what he said.

James Wilks 13:46 Yeah, but it's ... That, that quotation is quoting the study, right? Fair enough? Is that what they said in the study?

Chris Kresser 13:53 No, that's not what they said in the study.

James Wilks 13:55 Hm, that's right.

Chris Kresser 13:55 That was my, uh, summary of the evidence of the study, in the study.

James Wilks 14:00 Right. Thank you. But when you put something in quote, that's misleading because-

Chris Kresser 14:02 But that's his quote.

James Wilks 14:03 Okay, fine. Okay, let's go with that.

Chris Kresser 14:04 But that's not, like-

James Wilks 14:04 Okay, let's go with that.

Chris Kresser 14:05 He's not, but he's not putting things in quotes-

James Wilks 14:06 No, so let's, let's go with that.

Chris Kresser 14:07 ... saying that someone else said it.

James Wilks 14:08 Totally, totally. I mean, that's how ... When you, when you, when you ... Anything you do in literature, when you put something in quotation marks, you're quoting the study. But that, uh, let's just, let's just bypass that. I'll agree. Okay, so can you bring up slide 109 to see what they actually said? Okay, this is the actual quote, okay?

Chris Kresser 14:25 Okay.

James Wilks 14:26 "Out of 153 reported meta-analyses comparing highest versus lower dairy consumption, 109, 71%, showed no evidence of a statistically significant association between dairy consumption and instance of cancers. 20 showed a decreased risk of cancers with dairy consumption, and 24 showed an increased risk of cancers with dairy consumption." Now, this is actually ... Until last night at, like, nine o'clock, I realized what he was doing, okay? If you want to go to ... I mean, just to sum it up, if you go to slide 110.

Chris Kresser 14:55 Wait, uh, can we stay on here for a second?

James Wilks 14:57 Do, do, do you wanna-

Chris Kresser 14:57 What's your inter-

James Wilks 14:58 Do you agree with that?

Chris Kresser 14:58 What's your interpretation-

James Wilks 14:59 Well, do you, uh, do you agree that that was the quote from the study? That's, that-

Chris Kresser 15:02 Absolutely.

James Wilks 15:03 Okay, good. But, okay, so-

Chris Kresser 15:04 But no, but I, I'm, I'm asking you what your interpretation ... Does that, in your mind, show a strong connection between dairy and cancer?

James Wilks 15:11 Okay, Joe, you're gonna really realize here what Chris is doing, okay? This is really ... And I'm glad that you brought it up.

Chris Kresser 15:16 Just please answer-

James Wilks 15:17 Okay, okay-

Chris Kresser 15:17 ... what he's saying.

James Wilks 15:17 Okay. So can I just say, the reason you brought this up is because Walter Willett said there was a strong connection between prostate cancer and dairy, correct?

Chris Kresser 15:24 Yeah.

James Wilks 15:24 So you brought up about something about all cancers. Okay.

Chris Kresser 15:27 Yeah.

James Wilks 15:27 So-

Chris Kresser 15:27 And in this study, about half of the studies showed a connection between prostate cancer and dairy, and half didn't.

James Wilks 15:34 Right. Okay, so-

Chris Kresser 15:34 That's still not a compelling argument that dairy-

James Wilks 15:37 No, no. It's a-

Chris Kresser 15:38 ... is, is associated with cancer.

James Wilks 15:40 Okay, so can we-

Chris Kresser 15:41 You got, you, you got a coin flip, basically.

James Wilks 15:43 Right. That's not actually true.

Chris Kresser 15:44 You still haven't-

James Wilks 15:44 I'll explain, I'll explain why-

Chris Kresser 15:45 You still haven't-

James Wilks 15:46 ... that's not true.

Chris Kresser 15:46 ... answered my question-

James Wilks 15:47 I will, I'm gonna ... I'm trying to tell you this.

Chris Kresser 15:48 ... about this, this-

James Wilks 15:48 I'm trying to tell you.

Chris Kresser 15:49 ... data here.

James Wilks 15:49 Slide, slide 110.

Chris Kresser 15:51 Well, let's st- let's stay with this. Explain this first-

James Wilks 15:53 No.

Chris Kresser 15:53 ... and then we'll move to the next slide.

James Wilks 15:54 Okay, no, no. Slide ... Next one then is explaining this.

Chris Kresser 15:56 Okay.

James Wilks 15:56 It's just breaking that down.

Chris Kresser 15:57 Okay.

James Wilks 15:58 So there was statistically significant associations between dairy consumption and incidence of cancers. 71% showed no evidence, 13 showed a decreased risk, and 8, 16% showed an increased risk. So you see what Chris did to represent this? He added 71 and 13 to make 84, right? You follow?

Chris Kresser 16:15 Right.

James Wilks 16:15 This is how you got it, right? So you added 73%, 71% and 13% to get 84.

Chris Kresser 16:21 Right.

James Wilks 16:21 So his statement from this study was 84% showed no evidence or a decreased risk. That's what he made you believe.

Chris Kresser 16:29 Well, 71% shows no evidence.

James Wilks 16:31 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 16:31 13% shows decreased risks.

James Wilks 16:33 Right, so, so-

Chris Kresser 16:33 If you add the two of them together, that's 84%-

James Wilks 16:36 Right, but-

Chris Kresser 16:36 ... shows no evidence-

James Wilks 16:37 Agreed, or-

Chris Kresser 16:37 ... or a decreased risk.

James Wilks 16:38 Exactly.

Chris Kresser 16:39 Right.

James Wilks 16:39 But what he could have said is 71% plus 16%, that's 87%. He could have said, "87% show no evidence or an increased risk."

Chris Kresser 16:49 It's 84. How are you getting-

James Wilks 16:51 No, 71-

Chris Kresser 16:52 ... 87?

James Wilks 16:52 Plus 16.

Chris Kresser 16:53 Oh.

James Wilks 16:54 So I, I could make the claim-

Chris Kresser 16:55 No evidence or a decreased risk or-

James Wilks 16:57 No, no, no.

Chris Kresser 16:57 ... or an increased risk? This- We're, we're getting really into semantics here.

James Wilks 17:00 But that's ... No, no, we're not.

Chris Kresser 17:00 The, the burden shows-

James Wilks 17:01 No, I actually-

Chris Kresser 17:01 The burden of proof ... I have no evidence. You were claiming, in the film, was claiming dairy causes cancer. My claim was there's no ... The bur- the bulk of the evidence suggests there is no association or inverse association.

James Wilks 17:13 Joe, Joe, we're exchanged-

Chris Kresser 17:13 That's true. We're claiming that 70% shows no evidence.

James Wilks 17:16 No, I agree. I agree.

Chris Kresser 17:17 13% shows decreased risk.

James Wilks 17:19 Okay.

Chris Kresser 17:20 So the ... But hold on a second.

James Wilks 17:21 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 17:21 The decreased risk-

James Wilks 17:22 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 17:22 ... and the increased risk are almost the same.

James Wilks 17:24 Right, but which is-

Chris Kresser 17:25 Which is what he talked about before.

James Wilks 17:26 Which is higher.

Chris Kresser 17:27 3% shows increased risk-

James Wilks 17:28 Okay, so-

Chris Kresser 17:28 ... on this one study.

James Wilks 17:29 But what ... I'm not ... The point of this study is that this is ... His study that he brought up showing this is very strong evidence, okay? His statement was very misleading. He added up those two and then he finished it off by saying, "So basically, there's an inverse correlation." But he did not show ... He could have said, "87% showed no risk or an increased risk." In ch- instead, he chose to summarize it saying 84%.

Chris Kresser 17:51 But there's no risk and an increa- There was- ... increased risk. It's a-

James Wilks 17:54 No, I know.

Chris Kresser 17:54 ... very different thing.

James Wilks 17:55 Joe, Joe.

Chris Kresser 17:56 'Cause you're talking about something causing cancer.

James Wilks 17:58 No, I aggr- exactly. And so they couldn't ... There wasn't strong enough things to find that total cancer was increased, right? But we just ... We know that as research shows, this included, did it not, industry-funded research?

Chris Kresser 18:10 Um, two-thirds of research is industry-funded, James.

James Wilks 18:12 Right. And we know that re- yeah, and research shows that-

Chris Kresser 18:14 But are you, are you proposing that we throw out every study because the ... One of the main studies in your film was sponsored by the Haas Avocado Board, the one w- that claims that animal products contribute to inflammation. Should we, should we get rid of that?

James Wilks 18:26 I'm not, I'm not suggesting we throw them out. I'm not suggesting we throw them out. I'm saying that industry-funded studies ... And by the way, industry-... -funded studies, they typically only put them out when it shows in their favor. There's no obligation for industry when they do a study to release it.

Chris Kresser 18:41 Yeah, I'm-

James Wilks 18:41 Right?

Chris Kresser 18:41 ... familiar with that.

James Wilks 18:42 Okay.

Chris Kresser 18:42 I've w- I've written-

James Wilks 18:43 So, so-

Chris Kresser 18:43 ... a lot about that myself.

James Wilks 18:43 ... so, Joe-

Joe Rogan 18:44 (clears throat)

James Wilks 18:44 ... what ... do you think that the industry, in the meat and dairy industry there's far more money than the plant-based industry, right? You'd agree with that?

Chris Kresser 18:51 (clicks tongue) Actually, we, we can look at some statistics on that-

James Wilks 18:54 Okay.

Chris Kresser 18:54 ... if you would like.

James Wilks 18:55 So, but, but, Joe-

Joe Rogan 18:56 I don't know-

James Wilks 18:56 So, so-

Joe Rogan 18:57 ... who's spending-

James Wilks 18:57 ... industry-funded-

Joe Rogan 18:58 ... more money.

James Wilks 18:58 Okay. Would you disa-

Chris Kresser 18:59 Uh-

James Wilks 18:59 ... would you disagree that industry-funded research has a four to eight times increased, um, risk compared to non-industry-funded research in finding conclusions in their favor?

Chris Kresser 19:08 I, I think indus- I think industry research is definitely a problem, but I see it as a problem across the board. And I, I have some statistics-

James Wilks 19:15 And, and so do you not-

Chris Kresser 19:16 ... we can talk about.

James Wilks 19:16 Do you not admit that-

Joe Rogan 19:17 (clears throat)

James Wilks 19:18 ... you here led the audience to believe that there was a potentially decreased risk overall. You made it sound very high because you didn't split between the no difference you s-

Chris Kresser 19:26 No, that was not my intention. It was just, it was a-

James Wilks 19:29 Okay. Per-

Chris Kresser 19:29 ... to summarize the data s- c- not to spend 10 (clears throat) minutes as we're doing now talking about one study when there is a huge-

James Wilks 19:34 Right, because it was mi-

Chris Kresser 19:35 ... there is-

James Wilks 19:35 You're ... because you made a very misleading claim.

Joe Rogan 19:36 Well, no, it's-

Chris Kresser 19:37 Not at all.

Joe Rogan 19:37 It's misleading if you said it the other way.

Chris Kresser 19:39 My claim is completely accurate, that-

Joe Rogan 19:40 If you said, "Showed no evidence," or, "Showed an increased risk, 84%-"

James Wilks 19:44 87%.

Joe Rogan 19:44 That ... or 87%.

James Wilks 19:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:45 That seems like it's misleading.

James Wilks 19:47 I don't think that would be misleading also.

Chris Kresser 19:48 Do you wanna look at-

James Wilks 19:49 But I'm just saying he could-

Chris Kresser 19:49 ... fiber?

James Wilks 19:49 ... have said that, but he chose-

Joe Rogan 19:51 But, but we're talking about something causing cancer, James.

James Wilks 19:53 Exactly, so he shouldn't be making that claim.

Joe Rogan 19:54 But increased risk is what we're looking for. What we're looking for-

James Wilks 19:57 Right, and I agree.

Joe Rogan 19:58 ... is evidence of it causing cancer. 71%, the bulk of the evidence shows no evidence.

Chris Kresser 20:02 That's exactly what I've ... my point. If you're claiming something-

Joe Rogan 20:06 So, w- why, why did you not ... why, why would you-

Chris Kresser 20:06 If you're claiming that something increases-

Joe Rogan 20:08 But if you claim it ... yeah.

Chris Kresser 20:08 ... then I'm saying here's all this research-

James Wilks 20:10 So, Joe, you honestly don't ... Joe, honestly. Joe.

Joe Rogan 20:11 ... that doesn't, that doesn't-

James Wilks 20:12 Hold on.

Joe Rogan 20:12 ... show that.

James Wilks 20:13 You honestly don't think that that statement ... instead of just putting that, uh, 71% showed no evidence, 13% showed ... That would be in the fairest, most, um, you know, honest explana- like, summary of that statement?

Joe Rogan 20:24 I would say that if you wanted to say it the most accurately, yes, that's the best-

James Wilks 20:27 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 20:28 ... way to say it.

James Wilks 20:28 That's what I'm saying.

Joe Rogan 20:28 71% showed no evidence, 13% showed decreased risk. But I don't have a problem with saying s- 84% showed no evidence or a decreased risk.

James Wilks 20:36 It's true.

Joe Rogan 20:37 Because we're talking-

James Wilks 20:38 It's true.

Joe Rogan 20:38 ... about something causing cancer.

Chris Kresser 20:40 That's the relevant point.

Joe Rogan 20:41 Right. Wh- that's the relevant point. The relevant point is does this study show that dairy causes cancer? The, the primary evidence, the most of the evidence says it shows no evidence or it shows a decreased risk. That's the bulk of it.

James Wilks 20:53 No, no, no. The bulk of it-

Joe Rogan 20:53 That's 84%.

James Wilks 20:54 Versus 87% that doesn't.

Joe Rogan 20:56 No, no, no. 87%. Shows increased risk is only 16%.

James Wilks 20:59 No, no, but you're just-

Joe Rogan 21:00 You're adding-

James Wilks 21:01 You add, you added something-

Joe Rogan 21:01 No evidence to increased risk to get 87%.

James Wilks 21:04 Okay.

Joe Rogan 21:04 That's illogical.

James Wilks 21:05 Then let's throw ... okay, then let's throw out the no, no evidence.

Joe Rogan 21:07 Okay.

James Wilks 21:07 Let's throw that out.

Joe Rogan 21:08 Let's throw out no evidence?

Chris Kresser 21:09 Why would we throw that out?

Joe Rogan 21:10 Why would we throw out?

Chris Kresser 21:10 Um, uh-

James Wilks 21:10 No, but-

Chris Kresser 21:10 The burden of proof is-

Joe Rogan 21:11 But the pro-

Chris Kresser 21:12 ... is, is to show ev- evidence that indicates that dairy causes cancer. If you do a study and it shows that it doesn't, then that's not in support-

James Wilks 21:21 So-

Chris Kresser 21:21 ... of the claim.

James Wilks 21:22 But I agree that-

Chris Kresser 21:23 ... that dairy causes cancer.

James Wilks 21:23 I agree. I'm agreeing that the meta-analysis did not, could not find an association, but I'm also pointing out that industry-funded studies were included in it, and they are more likely to find no connection.

Chris Kresser 21:33 Okay. So there's 153-

James Wilks 21:35 Is that fair?

Chris Kresser 21:35 ... studies.

James Wilks 21:36 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 21:36 You're claiming we should just ... that all of them are industry funded and we should throw out this huge review of 153 meta-analyses because of industry funding? What is the basis for that claim?

James Wilks 21:48 (clicks tongue) No, I'm not. I'm saying that it sways the results. Can you ... you can't see that?

Chris Kresser 21:53 I don't h- I don't ... I-

James Wilks 21:55 But you know that industry fund-

Chris Kresser 21:56 No, I don't, I don't accept that out of 153 studies-

James Wilks 21:59 But you just ... You accepted-

Chris Kresser 22:00 ... that were, that, that were in this meta-analyses, that they're gonna sway the results to the point where these findings aren't valid. And we could do the same thing with this ... all of the studies that you have linked to in the film.

James Wilks 22:13 Well, we're

Narrator 22:13 Yeah, da-

Chris Kresser 22:13 And we can also look at other studies on dairy and cardio-metabolic outcomes that we have-

James Wilks 22:18 Oh, totally.

Chris Kresser 22:19 I've got lots of large reviews that we can look at.

James Wilks 22:22 And again-

Chris Kresser 22:22 And-

James Wilks 22:22 Anyone can bring up-

Chris Kresser 22:23 You know, this is a pointless discussion to have if you're just gonna sit there and say industry funding makes these results-

James Wilks 22:28 No, I'm not ... that's not my only point. That's-

Chris Kresser 22:30 ... invalid.

James Wilks 22:30 That's not my only point. I think the on-

Joe Rogan 22:31 You're saying it makes them suspect.

James Wilks 22:33 Correct.

Joe Rogan 22:33 Yes. Okay.

James Wilks 22:33 And, and it could have swayed it in the other direction.

Joe Rogan 22:35 It has in the past.

Chris Kresser 22:35 But wait.

Joe Rogan 22:36 In that, in that sense-

Chris Kresser 22:36 How many of the-

James Wilks 22:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:37 ... I do agree with you about the cigarette thing.

James Wilks 22:38 Right.

Chris Kresser 22:38 How many of the 153 study meta-analyses, which each also had individual studies in them, are, uh, are so, so biased by industry funding that we can't count on the findings?

James Wilks 22:50 Well, I would hope that you would know more than I. I mean, basically, you've got sitting here-

Chris Kresser 22:53 Why? Why ha- wh- why would ... you know, uh, this is a ... this, this ... we can't get very far in this discussion if you're gonna claim that we can't even talk about studies in the peer-reviewed literature because industry funding completely biases the findings.

James Wilks 23:09 No, I'm not saying that's the case. I'm saying just because they couldn't ... even though there were more showing an increased risk than showed a decreased risk, right? I am saying that it's possible that the, the industry funding-

Chris Kresser 23:19 Well, that's a misleading statement. More showed increase than decrease.

James Wilks 23:23 Than decrease. That's correct.

Chris Kresser 23:23 No. But there's 71% showed no change at all.

James Wilks 23:27 No, I agree with that. I ag- I agree. I agree. So that's a wash.

Joe Rogan 23:28 But, so, no.

Chris Kresser 23:29 That's not a wash.

Joe Rogan 23:30 It's not a wash.

Chris Kresser 23:30 It's not even close-

Joe Rogan 23:31 No.

Chris Kresser 23:31 ... to a wash, James. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:32 No, it's not a wash.

Chris Kresser 23:33 If you have a hypothesis, this thing causes cancer, and then you do a ton of studies and there's no association, that's a ... that hypothesis is no longer correct. It's not a wash.

James Wilks 23:44 No. That's actually, that's actually not true based on epidemiology. If you have 10 studies that show no a- association and 10 that show an association, then that outcome is an association.

Chris Kresser 23:51 But you don't have that.

James Wilks 23:51 No.

Chris Kresser 23:52 You don't have that at all here.

James Wilks 23:53 But I'm not ... again-

Chris Kresser 23:54 You've-

James Wilks 23:54 ... I'm not arguing ... I'm not-

Joe Rogan 23:55 You have eight ... what he said, you have 84% that show-

Chris Kresser 23:57 That show either no association-

Joe Rogan 23:59 ... nothing or a decreased risk.

James Wilks 24:00 Right. And we also have a-

Joe Rogan 24:00 Versus the opposite. You could say 84% showed no evidence, and then s- and forget about decreased risk. Just say 84% showed no evidence. Forget about decreased risk.

James Wilks 24:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:10 You sit- still have only 16% showed an increased risk.

James Wilks 24:13 Right. But that's not-

Joe Rogan 24:13 When you do an epidemiology study-

James Wilks 24:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:15 ... you're g- you have to take into account all the other factors in these persons' lives.

James Wilks 24:18 Totally. How few they get.

Joe Rogan 24:18 You have to take into account whether they, whether they drink, whether they smoke-

James Wilks 24:21 Totally.

Joe Rogan 24:22 ... whether they exercise.

James Wilks 24:23 Totally.

Joe Rogan 24:23 Or, you know, a sedentary lifestyle. There's a lot of factors.

James Wilks 24:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:26 So, that would ... i- if you had something that was causing cancer, you would expect the results to be flipped. You would expect the results to be 16% showed, uh, uh, no ... so, showed no evidence, 71% or 84% showed an increase.... that would be something you'd say, "Hey, this is causing cancer."

James Wilks 24:44 No.

Joe Rogan 24:44 This is more likely.

James Wilks 24:45 Exactly. That, that's not how epidemiology works though. If you, if you had-

Joe Rogan 24:48 Well, epidemiology is slippery anyway.

James Wilks 24:49 No, I agree. I agree, because-

Chris Kresser 24:50 Wait, wait, wait. How is that not how epidemiology works?

James Wilks 24:52 Okay. If you've got, if you have even, if you had 10 studies showing no evidence, just because you don't find something doesn't mean that it exists.

Joe Rogan 24:58 Okay.

James Wilks 24:58 The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Joe Rogan 25:01 Okay. But let's say, let's say this.

James Wilks 25:02 As a... You know.

Joe Rogan 25:02 If you, if you had 100 studies and 70 of those studies showed an increased risk of cancer-

James Wilks 25:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:07 ... wouldn't you say that thing causes cancer most likely?

James Wilks 25:09 Most... Well, if it was all epidemiology, then it's a question you can't tell causation.

Joe Rogan 25:12 Oh. Wouldn't you say that, right? Okay. So, now let's do 100 studies and 70% now show no evidence.

James Wilks 25:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:18 Wouldn't you say it's most likely that there's no evidence?

James Wilks 25:20 No. That's not how it works.

Joe Rogan 25:22 Oh.

Chris Kresser 25:22 Oh. How does it work?

Joe Rogan 25:23 How does it work?

James Wilks 25:23 So if you've got 70 studies that couldn't, couldn't show a correlation-

Joe Rogan 25:27 Mm-hmm.

James Wilks 25:27 ... and 30% that did, that is still in favor of showing that there is a correlation.

Joe Rogan 25:32 Well, no, no, no. No. Show... N- we're not... Now, we're doing 70 studies. We, if 70%, l- 70% of the people in these studies, if you have all these studies, you have 100 studies and 70% of the people in all these studies are showing an increased risk of cancer-

James Wilks 25:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:44 ... we would, we would agree.

James Wilks 25:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:46 This is a-

James Wilks 25:46 Right. You can't prove causation based on, uh, observational, but sure.

Joe Rogan 25:49 But you would agree there's most likely a connection.

James Wilks 25:51 Most likely, most likely, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:51 Right? Now, if it's reversed, now if 70% of these studies show there's no increased risk of cancer-

Chris Kresser 25:57 Or 84%, to be more exact.

Joe Rogan 25:58 ... or 84%, which is because you add in the decreased risk. When we're not even adding the decreased risk, which shows that you're less likely to get cancer, which is almost the same as an increased risk of cancer, which i- in my eyes is a wash. You would assume that we're talking about something that doesn't give you cancer.

James Wilks 26:15 Well, that, I mean, that, that's... I agree that this study found that there w- they couldn't prove a causation, right? Or they couldn't prove a link between cancer and-

Joe Rogan 26:21 But you made it out like he was being deceptive.

James Wilks 26:23 He is being deceptive.

Joe Rogan 26:24 I don't agree with that.

James Wilks 26:25 Okay.

Joe Rogan 26:25 I don't agree with that because you're trying to-

Chris Kresser 26:27 Not in the slightest.

Joe Rogan 26:27 You're, you're trying to show that these studies are proving, or at least, uh, making this correlation between consumption of dairy products and cancer. But the evidence doesn't show that. If you want to look at it in its entirety, the evidence shows that most of the... 71% showed no evidence of it causing cancer. 13% showed it's actually better for you. You have less risk of cancer than not eating dairy. 13%.

James Wilks 26:53 And 16% had more.

Joe Rogan 26:54 And then 16% showed increased risk of cancer.

James Wilks 26:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:56 And again, when you're talking about epidemiology studies, when you're talking about, you know, 16 out of 100, you're, you have to throw in all the other factors in these people's lives.

James Wilks 27:06 I agree. I agree, and that's why they didn't find it. But can I just... The reason you point this up is prostate cancer, right? (smacks lips) And, and so if you look at slide, uh, 113.

Joe Rogan 27:14 P- prostate cancer was, that's disturbing. So it's 50/50 with dairy consumption-

James Wilks 27:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:18 ... versus-

James Wilks 27:19 Uh, wait, that's not... One... Sorry, 113.

Joe Rogan 27:21 But a lot of people get prostate cancer too. Isn't that a- also an issue? That's a high risk.

James Wilks 27:26 That is one 13.

Joe Rogan 27:27 Isn't that a, a high risk for males, prostate cancer?

Chris Kresser 27:31 Yeah.

James Wilks 27:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:32 It's a high one, whether it they-

James Wilks 27:33 Sorry, 112.

Joe Rogan 27:34 ... whether they consume milk or not.

James Wilks 27:37 So just so, uh, I, in this meta-analysis that you point to, the highest connection that they could find between dairy and any type of cancer was prostate cancer. So if you look at the black line, that shows no association. If you look at the green line, that's decreased association, and the red line was increased association. That was the meta-analysis that you provided.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Yeah.

James Wilks 27:55 So-

Joe Rogan 27:56 Yeah.

James Wilks 27:56 ... you brought, you brought this study up because Doctor Walter Willett, who is the chair of nutrition at Harvard, he's one of the most published nutrition scientists of all time, if not the most published.

Chris Kresser 28:05 No disagreement there.

James Wilks 28:06 Right? And so he is coming to the determination that prostate cancer is linked, and it's likely that it's causal. And this very study-

Chris Kresser 28:14 Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. Half and half. That's not ca-

James Wilks 28:17 No, no, no.

Chris Kresser 28:17 That's no evidence of a causal relationship, James.

James Wilks 28:20 (laughs) No.

Chris Kresser 28:20 There's no evidence of a causal relationship.

James Wilks 28:23 No, no. Okay. Doctor Walter Willett is, in, in just about any type of-

Chris Kresser 28:26 Let's talk about this study-

James Wilks 28:27 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 28:27 ... rather than appeal to authority. You just said yourself that's a rhetorical fallacy-

James Wilks 28:32 No, it's-

Chris Kresser 28:32 ... the appeal.

James Wilks 28:32 It's a, it's a, it's a fallacy unless it's the, uh, appeal to valid authority. Because literally if I want to know about-

Chris Kresser 28:39 Yeah.

James Wilks 28:39 ... Are you saying like... So if I want... Let's say we look at mixed martial arts. And Chris goes, "Well, I've never done mixed martial arts, but I think I know more about anthropology, nutrition, like, I know more about boxing, kickboxing, jujitsu, and wrestling." So we're talking about the consensus. We're talking about leading experts in their field with thousands of peer-reviewed-

Joe Rogan 28:57 No. Well, you're bringing up-

Chris Kresser 28:57 There, there is no consensus. There are experts who are, that are, that are very illustrious-

James Wilks 29:01 No, there is consensus.

Chris Kresser 29:01 ... who would disagree and would, uh, look at this study and reach the same exact conclusion that I did.

James Wilks 29:08 Right. Same, same with flat Earthers. Yeah.

Chris Kresser 29:08 Which is there's no reliable... No. There's no reliable proven connection between dairy and prostate. You have half studies showing a, an association, half studies showing no association. Not to mention the fact that that's, as you just said, that even if there was a strong correlation, that doesn't prove causation.

James Wilks 29:28 Well, this was a meta-analysis.

Chris Kresser 29:29 That's after you-

James Wilks 29:29 But you said you like this because it included also randomized controlled trials.

Chris Kresser 29:33 Yeah. But-

James Wilks 29:33 And I'm saying, should we, should we trust Walter Willett, who at the time was the chair of nutrition at Harvard?

Joe Rogan 29:37 Let's, let's trust his studies. The study is what we need to look at.

James Wilks 29:38 No, no. But we, yeah. But that's the thing. But, Chris-

Chris Kresser 29:41 But we're way off here because-

James Wilks 29:42 No, no. Yeah. We're way off because it's a-

Chris Kresser 29:44 We're way off.

James Wilks 29:44 Okay, go ahead.

Chris Kresser 29:45 The, the question was still, you know, the in- there are a lot of inferences made in the film, whether they were intentional or not on your part, that, you know, dairy... People are hearing, "Oh, dairy is gonna cause prostate cancer." They're gonna extend that to cancer. There are other f- claims in the film made about dairy and metabolic pro- uh, issues and saturated fat and metabolic issues. So the operative question that I'm trying to answer is, do the data support that? Not does Walter Willett think that-

James Wilks 30:14 Right.

Chris Kresser 30:14 ... or any other expert in the film. Do the data support that conclusion?

James Wilks 30:18 Right. I agree.

Chris Kresser 30:19 And even in that study, it, the data don't strongly support that. If you have half studies saying yes, half studies saying no, that's not a clear signal. And it's definitely not evidence of a causal relationship.

James Wilks 30:31 But, but-

Chris Kresser 30:31 So, so having Walter Willett or anyone say, "There's a strong relationship and we know the mechanism and there's, you know, it's causal," that...

Joe Rogan 30:40 Can I pause here? Can I pause here?

Chris Kresser 30:41 That is disproven by the study.

Joe Rogan 30:42 Can I pause here? Didn't you tell me that two-thirds of people, um, have an intolerance towards, uh, towards milk and-

Chris Kresser 30:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:50 ... towards dairy?

Chris Kresser 30:50 And I have a study here that-

Joe Rogan 30:52 Is that what the number is?

Chris Kresser 30:53 I- it's one ou-... two out of three people in the world-

Joe Rogan 30:57 Okay.

James Wilks 30:57 So, can I just ask a question then?

Joe Rogan 30:58 Hold on, because this is actually to your point.

James Wilks 31:00 Sure.

Joe Rogan 31:00 So, two out of three people have an intolerance towards dairy in the world. And if you're talking about a study that shows 50% of the people in these studies that are consuming dairy th- there's a correlation between prostate cancer and, and dairy.

James Wilks 31:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:16 Wouldn't you assume that maybe w- the same thing that we're talking about with two-thirds of people are intolerant to something, they consume this thing that's intolerated, it causes inflammation in the body, and that inflammation in the body could possibly be leading to cancer?

James Wilks 31:30 Correct.

Chris Kresser 31:31 No.

Joe Rogan 31:31 No?

Chris Kresser 31:31 Not correct. Dairy pr-... dairy is inversely associated with inflammation. So, uh, we can pull up a study there-

Joe Rogan 31:38 But if... Okay. Inversely associated with inflammation. But if people are irritated by dairy, if they have an intolerance to dairy, and you said two-thirds of people-

Chris Kresser 31:46 Then, here's, here's what I would suspect there that if you... we, we segmented those people out and said, "Let's do a study, find out who's intolerant of dairy and find out who isn't," you would see even better results for dairy, because despite the fact that some people are lactose intolerant, we're still seeing in that meta-analyses that, you know, most peop-... there's no association in most cases and an inverse association in other cases. So, Jamie, hold on-

James Wilks 32:13 So, this, this, this-

Joe Rogan 32:13 But this cancer thing-

James Wilks 32:14 Hold on.

Joe Rogan 32:14 Hold on a second. But this prostate cancer thing is not most.

Chris Kresser 32:17 But why is-

Joe Rogan 32:18 This is 50/50, right?

Chris Kresser 32:19 I... No. But Wye-

Joe Rogan 32:20 50/50's disturbing.

Chris Kresser 32:21 Why would-

James Wilks 32:21 So, I'm imagining what you're saying. You're saying if half of the... Okay, well, if, if dairy gives half people cancer-

Joe Rogan 32:25 Right.

James Wilks 32:25 ... and doesn't give the other half cancer, then I can just drink dairy. Second of all, do you see what Chris just did?

Chris Kresser 32:29 That's not what that study...

James Wilks 32:30 But you see what he did?

Chris Kresser 32:31 These, these are epidemiology, James. It's not dairy gives anyone cancer, it's association.

James Wilks 32:35 No, that's not it.

Chris Kresser 32:36 These are-

James Wilks 32:36 Your meta-analysis included randomized controlled trials.

Joe Rogan 32:39 Can I stop? But, but, um, this is actually to you. The... Can I stop this, though?

Chris Kresser 32:42 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 32:42 Wouldn't... If someone's intolerant of something, that means your body is irritated by it, it means it causes some sort of disturbance, right? Whether it's inflammation or gastrointestinal disorder, you start farting and... That's what happens when people are lactose intolerant, right? That irritates the body. Wouldn't there be... Wouldn't you assume that something your body is intolerant to would possibly be the cause of disruption or disease?

Chris Kresser 33:07 Certainly could be.

Joe Rogan 33:08 Right. So now-

Chris Kresser 33:09 But, but-

Joe Rogan 33:09 ... if you're... But if you're looking at two-thirds of the population are intolerant to dairy-

Chris Kresser 33:15 But why would that cause prostate cancer and no other cancers?

James Wilks 33:18 I don't know.

Chris Kresser 33:19 That doesn't make sense.

Joe Rogan 33:19 But it, it is cau-... That's just not what's coming.

James Wilks 33:21 No, but if you... Right.

Chris Kresser 33:22 That's why when you see that kind of thing in the data, it's a red flag, because there's no logical explanation for why it would cause prostate cancer, but no other cancers.

James Wilks 33:32 Can I just, can I just point out one thing, though?

Chris Kresser 33:33 You start to think about why is there more of an association there with, with that. Jamie, pull up a... Just google "dairy products and inflammation review of the clinical evidence."

James Wilks 33:42 Can, can I-

Chris Kresser 33:42 This is a review, systematic review of 52 clinical trials and they found that dairy products were inversely associated with inflammatory markers, which means that people who consume dairy actually had lower levels of inflammatory markers. So, the hypothesis that dairy is inflammatory and that's why it's causing cancer doesn't seem to hold up in the literature.

James Wilks 34:03 So, so can I just say?

Chris Kresser 34:04 Go ahead.

James Wilks 34:04 So, first of all, you know, there, there's... there might be studies he can bring up. I'm not even a nutrition scientist, I'm a com-... like a com- combatives trainer, right? And so you also said that you're not an expert in nutrition. And so what, what we have to believe today is that Chris really is... it is about the meta-analyses, but it's about meta-analyses, it's about the totality of taking into account all the evidence, not just one meta-analysis or a meta-analysis of a meta-analyses, but all of the data. And so what you're asking people to believe is that you are better at interpreting the data than people that are experts in their field-

Chris Kresser 34:35 No.

James Wilks 34:35 No, can I, can I-

Chris Kresser 34:35 There are many experts who would agree with me.

James Wilks 34:38 No, no, but, but-

Chris Kresser 34:38 You just didn't choose to interview them in the film.

James Wilks 34:41 No, actually, we did interview some that I can tell you about in a second on the other side, and I'll tell you why we didn't include them. But you are asking people... I would understand it if suddenly Chris has figured out this nutrivore diet, that he figures out something about nutrition, that he's better than the consen-... he knows more about the consensus and more about the majority of leading experts. But to believe that Chris knows more about anthropology, urology, heart disease, n-... uh, environment-

Joe Rogan 35:03 Why include anthropology?

Chris Kresser 35:05 Yeah.

James Wilks 35:05 Because l-... Is that what you tried-

Chris Kresser 35:07 No.

James Wilks 35:07 You tried to debunk some of the anthropology in the film?

Chris Kresser 35:09 And successfully, because the majority of anthropologists agree with what I said. You chose the... probably one of the few that would agree with the idea that humans primarily ate a plant... you know, exclusively plant-based diet for-

James Wilks 35:23 Performance.

Chris Kresser 35:23 ... most of human evolution. We can go into that again. I'm actually representing the consensus viewpoint in anthropology, James.

James Wilks 35:31 No, you're actually not.

Chris Kresser 35:32 I think you'd be hard, you'd be hard-pressed-

James Wilks 35:33 He's not. He's not.

Chris Kresser 35:33 ... to find a, a, a consensus group of experts that agree with that idea.

James Wilks 35:39 So, you're saying that the chair... you're saying that Richard Wrangham, the chair of anthropology that we interviewed, does not represent the scientific consensus of anthropology?

Chris Kresser 35:46 If you're arguing that he, uh, is, is saying that humans primarily ate plant-based diet for... and didn't... and animal products were not a significant part of our diet through evolution, then yes, that's what I'm saying.

James Wilks 35:58 It depends. So, w-... we came from the equator, right? And when you live-

Chris Kresser 36:01 But I want, I want to go back a second because you, you, y-

James Wilks 36:03 Okay. So, you don't want me to answer... You don't want me to answer your question.

Chris Kresser 36:05 You... Are you arguing that there's a dominant consensus among nutrition experts in the US that everyone should be on a vegan diet?

James Wilks 36:14 No.

Chris Kresser 36:15 So, w- what's the arg-... what's the argument here? That we should... people should eat plants? And my argument is yes, they should.

James Wilks 36:24 I think-

Chris Kresser 36:24 And, and animal products can also be part of that nutrivore, healthy, omni- omnivorous diet. And I think you would find a dominant consensus of nutrition experts that agree with that.

James Wilks 36:35 So, it should be-

Chris Kresser 36:36 But that, that's not the way this film is being interpreted. This film is-

James Wilks 36:40 Right. Because it was interpret-... There was a bias going into it. So, for example, when you go to the US military, right? The Game Changers is the first documentary that has ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency for the Department of Defense. It's the first documentary that has ever been supported by the Special Operations Medical Association. They didn't come into it looking at the science. This has been evaluated by hundreds of PhD researchers to come to that conclusion. Okay? They did not come into it-

Joe Rogan 37:05 Wait a minute, wait a minute. How so? It been evaluated? How so?

James Wilks 37:07 You can't get an accreditation from the D-

Joe Rogan 37:09 Your film is-

James Wilks 37:09 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:09 ... being evaluated by-

James Wilks 37:11 The, the Depart... The Defense Health Agency or the Department of Defense, which decides what the military's eating, they don't give a crap about, "Oh, let's, let's base our diets on evo- on, on evolution." They care on what is the science. And the doc, Game Changers is the first documentary that's ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency. They didn't look at this and go, "Okay. Um, this is a vegan propaganda film." They-

Joe Rogan 37:32 But, but why are you saying that hundreds of PhDs have reviewed this and reviewed all the data-

James Wilks 37:37 Because-

Joe Rogan 37:37 ... in it to come to this conclusion? And is this proven? Is this printed?

James Wilks 37:41 Is this-

Joe Rogan 37:42 Is this some published paper w- where it shows-

James Wilks 37:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:44 ... that hundreds of people have reviewed this film and found all the claims to be credible, and that all the debunkings of it are not?

James Wilks 37:50 The, the Defense Health Agency has reviewed this film in detail, digging into each of the studies.

Joe Rogan 37:56 Right. But you're saying, you again called to authority, you're saying hundreds of PhDs have, have studied this. Who are these people?

James Wilks 38:02 Yes. Well, there's, there's a lot from the Defense Health Agency. There's a lot of people at the Special Operations and Bacterization that came to the decision, and these are master's degrees in nutrition, PhDs in nutrition, to get that accreditation. That just hasn't happened before, because they didn't come into it thinking, "This is a vegan propaganda film."

Chris Kresser 38:19 Or, or-

James Wilks 38:19 That was the bias going into it.

Chris Kresser 38:21 We're, again, talking a lot about experts and, and their opinions.

James Wilks 38:25 Experts, right.

Chris Kresser 38:26 And, and less-

James Wilks 38:26 Experts, experts and their opinions, and not Chris Kresser and his opinion.

Chris Kresser 38:29 It's not... That, that's a misrepresentation, James.

Joe Rogan 38:33 No, he's talking about studies.

Chris Kresser 38:34 No. This is not about my opinion. And I... We can fill the room with experts who agree with me. You had an expert, a debate with a doctor in the UK on a TV show who disagreed with you. We can-

James Wilks 38:46 She'll, she'll always-

Chris Kresser 38:47 We can find, we can-

James Wilks 38:47 She wants to even... Yeah.

Chris Kresser 38:47 ... we can always find people who agree and disagree, uh, with all kinds of different credentials. It's disingenuous to claim, like I said, that I, I am not here to argue that plants are unhealthy and that we shouldn't be eating a lot of plants. This is the fallacy that gets created with these kinds of films. It's not a choice between a standard American diet, crappy processed food diet that contains meat, or a vegan diet.

James Wilks 39:13 Right.

Chris Kresser 39:14 It's, there is a possibility of a plant-based diet, a diet that has a lot of plants that also contains animal products, and that comparis- comparing that with a 100% plant-based diet, that is the operative question here.

James Wilks 39:30 The, the film, the film is, I believe that meat and dairy are bad for you. The film talked about plant-based diets.

Joe Rogan 39:35 Why do you believe that?

James Wilks 39:37 I think there's sufficient evidence. And I think-

Chris Kresser 39:38 Yeah. Well, let's talk about that, because-

James Wilks 39:40 Well, can I, can I, can I just-

Joe Rogan 39:40 That's what we already started talking about.

Chris Kresser 39:40 ... can I just say if you look at our web... If you look at our website, and telling, you know, uh, people are wanting, uh, resources on what to eat, they say, we say it's all or something. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. So we were talking about plant-

Joe Rogan 39:52 Well, okay. But, that's nice. But what you just said-

James Wilks 39:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:54 ... you think that meat is bad for you.

James Wilks 39:56 Yeah. Please explain.

Chris Kresser 39:57 Meat and dairy, and you know-

Joe Rogan 39:58 Well, I could see the-

Chris Kresser 39:59 Like, yeah. Let's go.

Joe Rogan 40:00 I could see the argument. If we're talking about two thirds of people being lactose intolerant, I would see the argument that for two thirds of people, dairy's probably not good for you. That seems to make sense.

James Wilks 40:08 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 40:08 But the, but the research doesn't, doesn't support that, though.

Joe Rogan 40:10 But if it, but if you're saying-

Chris Kresser 40:12 I mean, we can, we, I can, we-

Joe Rogan 40:12 What is lactose intolerance? If you're intolerant of something-

James Wilks 40:15 Well, that's-

Joe Rogan 40:15 ... it means your body's not enjoying it, right?

James Wilks 40:16 And that's not the only issue, by the way.

Joe Rogan 40:18 Right?

James Wilks 40:18 That's not the only issue with milk.

Chris Kresser 40:19 Okay.

Joe Rogan 40:19 But let's just, let's just concentrate on that-

James Wilks 40:20 Yeah. Okay.

Joe Rogan 40:21 ... because that's a giant number. Two thirds of people are lactose intolerant. If you would, if you're... So your body's intolerant of something, but you keep consuming that thing that your body's intolerant of, I would naturally assume, as a absolute admitted non-expert-

Chris Kresser 40:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:34 ... that that's not good.

Chris Kresser 40:35 So two things here. Number one, I've always, for years, have written that dairy is very individual and depends on your tolerance. Number two, there are a lot of dairy products with virtually no lactose in them. So cheese, for example.

Joe Rogan 40:48 Right.

Chris Kresser 40:48 Hard cheeses, no lactose.

Joe Rogan 40:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kresser 40:49 You know, cream, no lac- very little lactose. Butter, very, no lactose. Ghee, no lactose. Yogurt, fermented dairy products like kefir, no lactose. So, um, while I agree with what you're saying, if someone is lactose intolerant, they should avoid dairy products that contain lactose, when you look at the studies on dairy and connections with conditions like cancer, inflammation, uh, which I just pointed out with this study, and you look at cardio-metabolic outcomes, which I'd like to cover because that includes heart disease and diabetes and overweight, obesity, et cetera, there is not any strong evidence that dairy contributes to those conditions. So let's, let's look at those actual studies.

James Wilks 41:32 So, so, so y- Chris, what you... You talk really badly against epidemiology, saying it can't prove causation. And then when you like it, you cite it. So you'll give epidemiological evidence and-

Chris Kresser 41:40 It's the same way with you, James.

James Wilks 41:42 So, okay. So, so exact-

Chris Kresser 41:42 I mean, you can't have it both ways. It's like-

James Wilks 41:44 Okay. Exactly. You can't-

Chris Kresser 41:45 I'm, I'm saying-

James Wilks 41:45 ... have it both ways either. That's right.

Chris Kresser 41:46 Oh. So you can... If... The burden of proof, if you're claiming that something is bad for you-

James Wilks 41:51 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 41:52 ... the burden of proof is on you.

James Wilks 41:53 Sure. But you can't-

Chris Kresser 41:54 Meaning y- so you can't say, "It's bad for you," and then I show epidemiological studies and RCTs, by the way, that were included in that meta-analyses that don't support that, and then you say, "Oh, we can't trust the research." (laughs)

James Wilks 42:06 No. I'm say-

Chris Kresser 42:06 How, how do you support the claim then?

James Wilks 42:07 I, I, I'm pointing out your hypocrisy is saying that you say that, you said that epidemiology, that's observational studies, just looking at people, you have said that we can't rely on those, and then you then cite them yourself.

Chris Kresser 42:19 I didn't say we can't rely on epidemiology. I say you have to consider the caveats in, with epidemiology. But again, the burden of proof, if you're claiming that a food is bad for you, the burden of proof is on you-

James Wilks 42:32 Okay. So I-

Chris Kresser 42:32 ... to show research that it is.

James Wilks 42:33 Right. So, so for example, can I-

Chris Kresser 42:35 Because if you then show-

James Wilks 42:35 Can I, can I give you some-

Chris Kresser 42:36 Yes.

James Wilks 42:36 Can I, can I give a couple of reasons about me?

Chris Kresser 42:37 Please. Please.

James Wilks 42:37 So for example, first of all, there's an inflammatory mediators, for example, like heme iron. Second of all, we look at population data and we show, uh, increased causes of morbidity and mortality for people that eat less meat or, or that eat no meat. So there's, there's-

Joe Rogan 42:54 Increased causes of morbidity. You just said it the wrong way.

James Wilks 42:57 Decreased. Yeah. Sorry. Decreases-

Joe Rogan 42:58 Yeah.

James Wilks 42:58 Decreased risk of mor-, uh, morbidity and mortality.

Joe Rogan 43:01 Okay. Yeah. Let's just be real clear on that, because you said it wrong.

James Wilks 43:03 And then-

Joe Rogan 43:03 Just so that everybody listening-

James Wilks 43:04 Heme, heme iron, for example-

Chris Kresser 43:05 Okay. Let's-

James Wilks 43:05 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 43:05 Let's look at two randomized controlled trials. See, these are not observational studies.

James Wilks 43:10 Okay.

Chris Kresser 43:10 Um, the, the first found that increasing red meat consumption by replacing carbohydrates in the diet of individuals without anemia actually reduced markers of inflammation.

James Wilks 43:21 Sorry, reduce... Replacing what, sorry? Carbohydrates?

Chris Kresser 43:25 Yeah.

James Wilks 43:25 I missed what you said, sorry.

Chris Kresser 43:26 So Jamie, if you want to pull this... Uh, I mean these are all on the website, kresser.co/gamechangers, but that, that study is called "Increased lean red meat intake does not elevate markers of oxidative stress and inflammation in humans."

Joe Rogan 43:42 Do you know which slide?

James Wilks 43:44 Uh, I believe the study exists. I mean that doesn't...

Chris Kresser 43:46 So these are RCTs, randomized...

James Wilks 43:48 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 43:48 So, so they're actually controlling it instead of just looking at observational data, which is subject to healthy user bias. Um, these are two RCTs.

James Wilks 43:57 Which is epidemiology studies.

Chris Kresser 43:57 So that's, uh, that's one study and then there's another one, another RCT, uh, in women with anemia inflammation markers on a diet high in red meat were not significantly different from those on a diet high in oily fish. And then there are also numerous studies of paleo diets which contain meat and other types of animal protein and show that they decrease markers of inflammation including CRP.

James Wilks 44:22 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 44:22 There's randomized control trials showing reductions in interleukin-6 and also in tumor necrosis factor-alpha, uh, in these diets. So, all of this suggests it's not the meat, it's what you eat with the meat that makes the difference.

James Wilks 44:37 So true.

Chris Kresser 44:37 We have studies of chlorophyll, eating chlorophyll-rich green vegetables-

James Wilks 44:41 Yeah.

Chris Kresser 44:42 ... uh, decreases the formation of N-nitroso compounds with meat.

James Wilks 44:45 Correct. Mm-hmm.

Chris Kresser 44:45 We have lots of studies showing that when you eat plants along with the meat, then you don't see the effects that you might see if you're just eating-

James Wilks 44:56 Right. It offsets-

Chris Kresser 44:56 ... crap standard American diet.

James Wilks 44:58 I agree. Sorry, offsets like s- some, uh, so if an animal food creates oxidative stress, you have it with the plant foods, and that would have the antioxidants and that would offset it. Is that basically...

Joe Rogan 45:08 It's a little more complicated than that.

Chris Kresser 45:09 Yeah. I, I think it is more complicated than that, but as I've always-

James Wilks 45:13 But that's one mech- can be more mechanisms, right?

Chris Kresser 45:13 As I said last time and as, as I've always argued, I'm not a, a proponent of carn- the carnivore diet. I'm not a low-carb guy. I'm not a keto guy. I'm, my fundamental argument is just that the optimal human diet contains both plant and animal foods. And this focus on individual food components or macronutrients like protein or fat or carbohydrate, we've gotten too much, it's called nutritionism. It's just focusing on these individual elements and ignoring the overall pattern of diet quality which is the most important thing. And that's what a lot of the more recent studies are showing. When you look at the diet pattern and diet quality on, its on, you know, overall, that's what actually makes a difference in terms of health and lifespan. Not how much of this fat, how much of that fat, whether there's, you know, red meat or white meat or fish or whatever. It's the pattern that makes the difference. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Let me pause you because this is, this is one of the primary misconceptions that people have about consuming meat. When they hear studies that say that meat is associated with mortality or high cholesterol or heart disease or all these different factors, we are talking about these kind of studies where people fill out a form, "Tell us what you eat."

James Wilks 46:29 Yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 46:30 "How many days a week do you eat meat? How many days a week do you eat this?" What they don't take into account is whether or not these people are going to Wendy's, whether or not they're eating a grass-fed-

James Wilks 46:40 Totally.

Joe Rogan 46:40 ... steak and, and, and, you know, and broccoli. Something healthy. There's a giant difference between those two things, but they're lumped in together because this is meat consumption.

James Wilks 46:49 Yeah, the, the studies aren't perfect for sure. Um, but you were saying that, basically you're look- saying we should look at outcomes and not just look at individual markers, right? Is that basically...

Chris Kresser 46:58 No, I'm saying we should look at the diet quality, the overall diet pattern.

James Wilks 47:04 Right. I agree.

Chris Kresser 47:04 So for example, Christopher Gardner did a study at Stanford a, a couple years ago and he took two, instead of saying, you know, low fat, low carb, he took two groups and he advised them all to basically eat a healthy diet. And then one group ate a low fat healthy diet, and the other group ate a low carb healthy diet. They all lost weight-

James Wilks 47:25 Agree.

Joe Rogan 47:25 Agree.

Chris Kresser 47:25 ... but it wasn't that big of a difference between the two.

James Wilks 47:27 I agree. I agree. So first of all, in terms of health, I, I would be pretty, my opinion would be, I'm pretty much, um, macronutrient agnostic. So I wouldn't like, I'm not advocating high carb or low carb. I think that people can do healthy and well. I think for athletes they need a lot more carbs-

Joe Rogan 47:42 Yes.

James Wilks 47:42 ... which of course getting those from plants. I think there's certain athletes that can, uh, if, if it's slow and steady state where you're, you're getting more fat oxidation, um, I think that, you know, slow and steady state athletes can do. But like, an MMA fighter, a soccer player-

Joe Rogan 47:55 Yes.

James Wilks 47:55 ... a basketball player-

Joe Rogan 47:55 Agreed.

Chris Kresser 47:56 We all agree on that.

Joe Rogan 47:57 Yeah, we all agree on that.

James Wilks 47:57 Okay. But, but you just said that you were, you were not low carb, right? You said you're not low carb.

Chris Kresser 48:02 I'm not. I'm not a low carb advocate. I've written articles called seven things, seven reasons you should be cautious. I'm not saying I'm not low, a low carb advocate. I don't believe everyone should be on a low carb diet.

Joe Rogan 48:15 Right.

Chris Kresser 48:15 I've never, I've never believed that.

James Wilks 48:17 But the thing is, Chris has his own... He doesn't have the consensus, um, definitions of carbohydrate levels. You've made up your own definitions, right?

Chris Kresser 48:24 When did I make up my own definitions?

James Wilks 48:25 Well, this is slide, uh, 80. Jamie, if, if you could do that, please?

Joe Rogan 48:31 Let's just point out that Zach Bitter, the man who I had on the podcast yesterday, who holds the world record-

James Wilks 48:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:36 ... in running 100 miles in 11 hours and I think it's 18 minutes, uh, he's on a low carbohydrate diet.

James Wilks 48:43 Yeah. And, and again, you get those slow and steady state, you can certainly do well.

Joe Rogan 48:47 Yeah.

James Wilks 48:48 Um, so, so Chris, your recommendation, your, your definition of low carb is 10 to 15%. Uh, if you can go to the next slide, Jamie, 81. So if you look at the peer-reviewed literature, it's either less than 30% or, the next slide, Jamie, less than 40%. Like if you look across all the literatures, less than 30 or 40. Moderate carb, according to Chris...--uh, next slide, Jamie, would be 15 to 30. Uh, peer-reviewed literature, next car- next slide, 40 to 65. And then high carb, Chris calls more than 30% in the peer-reviewed literature. High carb, more than 65, uh, in the next slide, more than 70, depending on the peer-reviewed literature. So, you've come up with your own definitions of what is low, moderate, and high carb.

Chris Kresser 49:29 Yeah, just for the purpose of my work-

James Wilks 49:31 You just said no, it's- Joe- Joe.

Chris Kresser 49:31 ... for the purpose of my work with people that, that's not relate- I wasn't trying to represent research there.

James Wilks 49:37 Right, Joe-

Chris Kresser 49:37 That's just-

James Wilks 49:38 Joe...

Chris Kresser 49:38 ... that's what I consider to be low carb, moderate carb, and high carb in my work with patients-

James Wilks 49:44 Okay, Joe, did you-

Chris Kresser 49:44 ... and in my recommendations.

James Wilks 49:45 ... Joe, did you not just hear him say-

Joe Rogan 49:47 Wait, but he did, I mean, th- that is what you said. I mean, you, when you wrote this out, you did have a different definition than the peer-reviewed literature.

James Wilks 49:56 So go to slide- slide 88. Slide 88.

Joe Rogan 49:57 You do, by his definition, have your own idea-

James Wilks 50:01 And he said no.

Joe Rogan 50:01 ... of what high carb and low carb is.

James Wilks 50:02 You heard him say that, you heard him say no.

Joe Rogan 50:03 Yes.

Chris Kresser 50:04 Yeah.

James Wilks 50:04 And so slide, uh, slide 88, please Jamie. So, I just want to sum this up. Um...

Chris Kresser 50:09 But what's the point here?

James Wilks 50:10 Because the point is- the point I said-

Chris Kresser 50:11 I- I- I've never said that everyone should be on a low carb diet.

James Wilks 50:15 No, I agree. But-

Chris Kresser 50:16 And I, I've always-

James Wilks 50:17 But...

Chris Kresser 50:17 ... argued that it depends on everything from your genes to your exercise pattern, activity.

Joe Rogan 50:22 Where... But Chris, where are you getting your numbers from? Like, when you write low carb, moderate carb, and high carb?

James Wilks 50:27 He made them up.

Chris Kresser 50:28 This is just a rec- this, this is a clinical recommendation from my experience working with patients. I'm not representing the scientific literature here. I'm not trying to make arguments about-

James Wilks 50:38 (laughs) We're talking about nutrition.

Chris Kresser 50:39 ... what's safe or, or not safe.

James Wilks 50:40 That's, that, that's madness. That, that's absolute madness to come up with your own definitions, and this is what I feel that Chris does, okay? And when you have people like Chris on multiple times, it throws people's perception off as what is a healthy diet because Chris misrepresents the data, he comes up with his own definitions of things, he misrepresents things that we said in the film, okay?

Joe Rogan 50:58 When-

Chris Kresser 50:59 What did I misrepresent in the film?

Joe Rogan 51:00 Well, well then, let's-

James Wilks 51:00 Well, that was something about B12. B12.

Joe Rogan 51:01 We're getting into, we're getting into the woods, we're getting into the woods here. Let's just talk about this real quick. Wh- so when we're talking about low carb, moderate carb, or high carb, when you're recommending to your patients low carb, moderate carb, or high carb, these definitions, how are you coming to these conclusions?

James Wilks 51:18 Just made them up.

Chris Kresser 51:19 No, based on...

Joe Rogan 51:20 Oh, but...

Chris Kresser 51:20 So there are a lot of people, James, that, that disagree with the, the car- the ranges-

James Wilks 51:25 The scientific consensus.

Chris Kresser 51:27 ... in the, in, in... Yeah, there are.

Joe Rogan 51:28 But when you say scientific consensus, how many different scientists were, were polled on this? How many different studies were shown?

James Wilks 51:36 Well, I, I, don't know. I don't know.

Chris Kresser 51:37 Well, just, just consider-

Joe Rogan 51:38 So, what is the scientific... But is this something that...

Chris Kresser 51:40 ... consider, like...

Joe Rogan 51:40 But hold on a second. Is this something that you just found that disputes his position?

James Wilks 51:44 No, no, this is...

Joe Rogan 51:45 Or is this like a large group of people?

James Wilks 51:47 No, this is... Okay, so slide 89. So, s-

Chris Kresser 51:48 Well, consider Virta Health who uses... You know Vert- the folks at Virta-

Joe Rogan 51:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kresser 51:52 ... who are all scientists-

Joe Rogan 51:54 Yes.

Chris Kresser 51:54 ... MDs, they use a ketogenic, very low carb diet to-

James Wilks 51:57 No. They, they choose markers, actually...

Chris Kresser 51:59 ... treat, to address diabetes.

James Wilks 52:00 No, they actually don't.

Joe Rogan 52:00 But hold on, let, let-

James Wilks 52:01 Okay. Sure, sure.

Chris Kresser 52:02 You, you will not be in ketosis at 30% carbohydrate.

James Wilks 52:05 Right.

Chris Kresser 52:05 Or 25%, or 20%, or-

James Wilks 52:08 Right.

Chris Kresser 52:08 ... or even 15%.

James Wilks 52:10 But you, for, for ketosis you need low carb-

Chris Kresser 52:12 It's gonna be 70%, you know, se- probably less than 10%.

Joe Rogan 52:14 Right. Totally agree. I agree. I don't think there's any...

James Wilks 52:16 Okay.

Chris Kresser 52:16 So, uh, you know, that... And, and then, you know, 40 to 65%, uh, you're not, you're no- you're not even in the ballpark, you know? So if you're-

Joe Rogan 52:26 For moderate carb, right?

Chris Kresser 52:27 ... thinking about using cl- low carbohydrate diets, for example, for weight loss or for diabetes or, you know, metabolic issues like Virta Health is doing, then you, low carb is not gonna be 30 to 40%.

Joe Rogan 52:41 Okay, that makes sense.

Chris Kresser 52:42 Like, that's not gonna work.

Joe Rogan 52:42 So can I-

Chris Kresser 52:43 So that's where my recommendations are coming from.

Joe Rogan 52:45 So your recommendation is based on ketosis?

Chris Kresser 52:47 Is based on, is based on...

James Wilks 52:48 (laughs)

Chris Kresser 52:48 Based on... No, based on the optimal range. If you have... If you look at the rest of the article, it's gonna be like, if you've got diabetes, you've got... you're overweight, you're obese, you're trying to lose weight, this is the range that I've found and other experts, like the people at Virta Health, have found will be most effective.

James Wilks 53:05 Okay.

Joe Rogan 53:05 And these are the ranges-

Chris Kresser 53:06 It's not, it's not... I... There's no representation that this is the range that is defined as low carb in the scientific literature.

Joe Rogan 53:13 So you're do- you're taunt- you're calling it low carb because if someone's on a ketogenic low carb diet, in order to get into ketosis, you have to have a low number of carbohydrates that's actually probably even below 10%, right?

Chris Kresser 53:23 And not even... Not, Joe-

Joe Rogan 53:24 So I-

Chris Kresser 53:24 ... not even just to be in ketosis. Like, just to get the, the maximal weight loss, you know. Someone could be at 15% and still get great weight loss-

Joe Rogan 53:32 Sorry, uh...

Chris Kresser 53:32 ... without being in ketosis.

James Wilks 53:33 Joe, I got- I gotta interrupt 'cause just, like, in the last five minutes, you showed a study from n- trying to prove your own point that low carb and low fat people had equive- uh, equivalent, uh, fat loss. You just said that. So why are you now all of a sudden advocating only low carb diets for, uh, losing body fat?

Chris Kresser 53:51 I'm not advocating only low carb diets.

James Wilks 53:52 Okay. So then you, but I-

Chris Kresser 53:53 I s- I said that, that, they can both work for different people.

Joe Rogan 53:58 But, but, but James, you're misrepresenting what he was saying. What he was saying is getting people to go on a healthy diet versus the standard American diet.

James Wilks 54:05 Yep.

Joe Rogan 54:05 So he's not just talking about low carb versus high carb. What he's talking about is getting off bullshit like processed foods and sugar and eating healthy.

James Wilks 54:14 I totally agree with that.

Joe Rogan 54:14 And when you do that people, no matter what, low carb or high carb, lose weight. But I think you will agree-

James Wilks 54:20 Yep.

Joe Rogan 54:20 ... as well as almost anybody would, that getting on a low carbohydrate diet and forcing your body into ketosis makes your body burn fat. That-

James Wilks 54:27 That's one way, yeah. Sure.

Joe Rogan 54:28 But it's, it's proven, right?

James Wilks 54:30 No, it's an- and that's one-

Chris Kresser 54:31 And the other, the other p- piece of this is most of the studies aren't comparing a healthy omnivorous diet with a pl- you know, plant-based vegan diet. They're comparing a vegan diet with a standard American diet that contains animal products.

Joe Rogan 54:47 Right. Same, same, same-

Chris Kresser 54:48 And that's not a fair comparison.

Joe Rogan 54:49 Same with the paleo diets or this carnivore diet.

Chris Kresser 54:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:52 Which, by the way-

Chris Kresser 54:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:53 ... has any of your work or your ideas been published in the scientific literature?

Chris Kresser 54:56 No, I've never claimed that, that it has.

Joe Rogan 54:58 Right.

James Wilks 54:58 I just wa- I just wondered. So...

Chris Kresser 55:00 You didn't wonder.

James Wilks 55:01 No, I did wonder.

Joe Rogan 55:03 Now he-

James Wilks 55:03 I, I couldn't find anything.

Joe Rogan 55:04 But that's not why you were saying that.

James Wilks 55:05 No, no.

Joe Rogan 55:05 You were saying that to try to make it seem that he's less of an expert.

James Wilks 55:08 Well, he is. I'm not an expert either.

Chris Kresser 55:10 So what-

James Wilks 55:11 But-

Chris Kresser 55:11 ... what's the point? Why are you here?

James Wilks 55:13 So I begin with-

Chris Kresser 55:14 Why am I here?

James Wilks 55:14 Well, I actually, I did ask if I could bring my chief science advisor, who has a double master's degree in exercise physiology and nutrition. He's a registered-

Chris Kresser 55:21 Yeah.

James Wilks 55:21 ... dietician. He built one of these-

Chris Kresser 55:22 I've read all of his papers, and we can talk about them. (clears throat)

James Wilks 55:24 Yeah, totally. Um, but I think we should, uh, so first of all, we just, it's, we must-

Joe Rogan 55:28 We still haven't b- come to this under- understanding of why you think meat is bad for you. You are basing it-

James Wilks 55:34 Oh, sure. Well, okay, so, so there's the individual components, like heme iron, for example, uh...

Chris Kresser 55:39 We talked about that last time. The heme iron is only associated with poor outcomes in the US. It's not in other-

James Wilks 55:46 That's actually not true.

Chris Kresser 55:46 It's not, it's not-

James Wilks 55:47 That's actually not true.

Chris Kresser 55:48 ... in, in other countries.

James Wilks 55:49 It's actually not true. That's not true.

Joe Rogan 55:50 But let's-

Chris Kresser 55:50 When you-

Joe Rogan 55:50 ... let's let him, and then we can refute it.

James Wilks 55:51 That's not true. Okay.

Joe Rogan 55:52 You can refute it. Hold on.

James Wilks 55:52 Do you know how, do you know how-

Joe Rogan 55:53 Hold on. Let him get... Yeah, sure.

Chris Kresser 55:54 In the Fang, in the Fang meta analysis, which looks at most of the studies that have been done on that, and then if you also consider that when you add green vegetables and other plant foods, spices, and all of that, it reduces the oxidative capacity of heme iron and reduces the absorption of heme iron. And you know, again, we're talking about diet pattern, not just, is red, are you eating red meat, uh, you know, in McDonald's and fast food restaurants, but if, are you eating it in the context of an overall healthy diet? And does that have the same effect?

James Wilks 56:29 Right. Do you know how to read a forest plot?

Chris Kresser 56:31 (lips smacking) Uh ... (sighs)

James Wilks 56:34 Yes or no?

Chris Kresser 56:35 I don't.

Joe Rogan 56:37 What does that mean?

James Wilks 56:38 That's basically looking at the statist- the confidence intervals.

Joe Rogan 56:40 What's it called, the forest block?

James Wilks 56:41 Forest plot.

Joe Rogan 56:42 Plot. Okay.

James Wilks 56:43 Yeah, 'cause it kind of looks like a bunch of trees, right?

Joe Rogan 56:44 Okay.

James Wilks 56:45 So you don't know how to read a forest plot. (smacks lips) So have you actually looked at the study that you referenced?

Chris Kresser 56:50 I have looked at the study.

James Wilks 56:50 Okay, so I just, well, you don't know how to read it, so it's kind of ... so ... (microphone thumping)

Joe Rogan 56:56 Get a microphone on you, James. Just pull that sucker over.

James Wilks 56:59 Yeah. (clears throat) So you see the, um ... First of all, he said that what he put up on the screen, I don't know if you've still got the slide, but you said that, um, the heme iron association was only in Americans. Right? But the conclusion of that study said that heme iron was associated with, um, cardiovascular disease. That was a conclusion of the study, which he didn't put up on the screen. Okay? And then second of all-

Chris Kresser 57:22 It said, I, the quote I put up was, "With respect to heme iron intake, we found a significant association only in the studies that were based on American cohorts."

James Wilks 57:31 Right. So there's two things about that.

Chris Kresser 57:32 That was from the study.

James Wilks 57:34 Okay, first thing, I, I, I can't link to my slide. I don't know where it is. Um, but basically, uh, can you just read the conclusion of that study? Because I, uh, I, I, I can't find my slide. The conclusion is, is down here. (smacks lips)

Chris Kresser 57:49 "Higer dietary intake of heme iron is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease, whereas no association was found between c- cardiovascular disease and non-heme iron intake or total iron intake."

James Wilks 58:03 Okay. So and then also-

Chris Kresser 58:04 And, and then I just read the, the quote just now that that was-

James Wilks 58:08 Right, which was incorrect, by the way. The, the authors made a mistake. So if you-

Joe Rogan 58:12 Oh. How did they make a mistake?

James Wilks 58:13 Um, so if you look at this forest plot, for example, this, uh, Kipstein-Grobush, and you can go and look at the ... I've looked at the individual studies that they were referencing in their meta analysis, as has my scientific team. So basically, you see this, um, c- uh, this is a 1.86 with a confidence in- interval being 1.14 to 3.09, okay? That is statistically significant connection between heme iron. And you can look at the, uh, the conclusions in three of the studies-

Joe Rogan 58:40 But you're saying that what he said about eating it with green, leafy vegetables reduces the oxidative effects-

James Wilks 58:44 No, no, no, sorry, uh, but we have to point out that he, that it, I don't think there's one-

Joe Rogan 58:48 You don't think that's true?

James Wilks 58:49 Unlike the dairy ... No, first of all, unlike the dairy one, where I think that he was being a bit misleading, in this case, I don't think he was being misleading. I think you, I think that you read-

Chris Kresser 58:57 There was no misleading. It was summarizing ... We already went over this.

James Wilks 59:01 Yeah, no, no.

Joe Rogan 59:01 Yeah, I don't think he was being misleading in the dairy.

James Wilks 59:03 Okay. Well, I, I, I think, okay. I'm just saying-

Chris Kresser 59:04 You're, you're, you would like to create that impression, but, uh, there was no-

James Wilks 59:06 No, no, I, and that, that's my opinion.

Joe Rogan 59:07 ... no misleading.

James Wilks 59:07 That's just my opinion. I think you were being a bit misleading. In this case, I do not think he was being misleading at all. It did say what you said in the study, even though you didn't point out the conclusion. You left out the conclusion of the study, but what wasn't your fault is that I think you-

Chris Kresser 59:20 (laughs)

James Wilks 59:20 I think you read the study, but you, you admitted that you can't, you don't know how to read forest plots. And the forest plots, if you did look at them and you knew how to read them, you'd show that there were three, uh, in the Netherlands and in Sweden that did show a significant correlation. Because what you were trying to make out with this point, which I understand when you're trying to, when you have a, a, a point of view and you're trying to work it backwards, what you end up doing is you try and find studies that suit your position. And so you went and found this study and you found a quote, even though you didn't like to put the conclusion of the study, but-

Chris Kresser 59:50 No, I did say that there-

James Wilks 59:51 But hold on.

Chris Kresser 59:51 I did acknowledge that there was an association, but it was-

James Wilks 59:54 Between heme, there's an associ-

Chris Kresser 59:54 ... based on American cohorts, which was in there.

James Wilks 59:56 Yeah, but it's not. But it's not. And I- and it's not your fault because the st- the, the people in the, whoever wrote the, the write-up for the study made a mistake. There were statistically significant, 'cause 1.14 to 3 means that there was, like, a 14% to 300% increase in that one study of, uh, from the Netherlands, the Kerstin Klipstein-Grobush. And for people watching, they can go and look at the study and look at the conclusions.

Chris Kresser 1:00:17 Yeah.

James Wilks 1:00:17 There were three. Because his point was (clears throat) , what you try to infer from that was that the American diet that includes a bunch of junk food is different than the, the ones in Sweden and the Netherlands where they aren't eating so much junk food. But that actually was incorrect. So heme iron has been associated and is recognized that there seems to be-

Chris Kresser 1:00:34 Yes, it has been associated, and we still have the studies that eating fruits and vegetables attenuate the oxidative capacity from heme iron, reduce absorption of iron in the gut.

James Wilks 1:00:44 Agreed.

Chris Kresser 1:00:44 And now we're focusing on a single mechanism rather than looking at the outcomes.

James Wilks 1:00:48 Right, which I, again, I'm happy to look at the outcomes, but-

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 Do you agree with what he just said though?

James Wilks 1:00:52 I do. I think that-

Joe Rogan 1:00:53 That heme iron-

James Wilks 1:00:53 I think that plant foods offset the oxidation, offset in so- in some regard, the oxidation that you get from animal foods. However, if you work out ...... you have oxidative stress, okay? So if you, um, want to have a meal, do you want the plant foods in the meal to be dealing with the oxidative stress from the animal foods or do you want the plants to deal with the oxidative stress, allow you to recover faster and your next workout will be better?

Joe Rogan 1:01:18 I don't think we know that's true.

James Wilks 1:01:19 No, we do know that is true. How do we-

Chris Kresser 1:01:20 We don't know that that's true. And it's not-

James Wilks 1:01:21 How do we know that that's true then?

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 It doesn't have to be specific. No, no, no. It's very specific. He just read a-

Chris Kresser 1:01:24 And red and, this is the thing, this is, this is nutritionism because we are not focusing on the nutrients in red meat and the things that, and the highly bioavailable protein. It's not like-

James Wilks 1:01:32 We're gonna-

Chris Kresser 1:01:32 ... red meat is only there to cause o- is, is causing oxidative stress.

James Wilks 1:01:37 I agree.

Chris Kresser 1:01:38 And-

James Wilks 1:01:38 It's not the only thing. There are some nutrients in meat also that-

Chris Kresser 1:01:40 And so again, the question is, is there a place for animal foods in a diet-

James Wilks 1:01:46 Right. That is the question.

Chris Kresser 1:01:46 ... that is healthy overall?

James Wilks 1:01:47 Right.

Chris Kresser 1:01:47 Not, not whether, you know, you should eat plant foods.

James Wilks 1:01:52 Right. We both agree that you should probably be eating a lot of plant foods, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 Yes.

James Wilks 1:01:55 Which is my position. I think it would be difficult for me to argue 100% plants versus 50% plants. I don't think it's argued to, out of, like, argue, like, 90, 95% plants versus... I think the argument would take hours and hours and hours to convince you why I think 100% plants is better.

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 I, I think there's definitely bio variability. And I think different people have-

Chris Kresser 1:02:15 Wait.

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 ... different requirements.

Chris Kresser 1:02:15 Can we just go back a second? I want to make sure I understood what you just-

James Wilks 1:02:18 Sure.

Chris Kresser 1:02:18 ... said. Can you s- can you repeat that?

James Wilks 1:02:19 So, so my position is that the literature, um, I think it's an easier argument 'cause we're talking about plant-based diets. And plant-based diets will do r- either limiting or im- or, uh, limiting or eliminating animal products, right? So for plant-based general, diets in general, right? So a vegan, maybe some vegetarian. Like, if you eat turkey on Thanksgiving and then you eat fish once a month, I would say that's a plant-based diet. You're getting the vast majority of your calories from plants, right? And I think there's a lot-

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 Well, I think most people, even if you're eating pasta, you're getting the vast majority of your calories from plants.

James Wilks 1:02:53 Well, yeah, I mean, but, but if we're talking about what's a healthier, the healthiest diet-

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 Yeah. But that's the problem, right?

James Wilks 1:02:56 ... I think whole plant foods, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 But a lot of shitty American diet is plant-based. You're talking about-

James Wilks 1:03:00 Totally.

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 ... buns and bread and-

James Wilks 1:03:02 Yeah. No, it-

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 ... all the bullshit.

James Wilks 1:03:04 Totally.

Joe Rogan 1:03:04 And peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

James Wilks 1:03:05 And a lot of, and a lot of-

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 That's all plant-based.

James Wilks 1:03:06 ... and a lot of vegans are vegetarians. Just 'cause you're vegan or vegetarian doesn't mean you're healthy.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 Exactly.

James Wilks 1:03:10 Right?

Joe Rogan 1:03:10 Yeah.

James Wilks 1:03:10 It's like, the, the, my argument would be 'cause you're getting vast majority of your calories from whole plant foods.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Right.

James Wilks 1:03:15 Okay?

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 Agreed.

James Wilks 1:03:16 Okay.

Chris Kresser 1:03:17 Y-

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 You agree?

James Wilks 1:03:18 Well, I don't think the vast majority is my position, but I think that's his position.

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 Right.

James Wilks 1:03:23 I agree what he's saying.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 Yeah.

James Wilks 1:03:24 And so-

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 But I think that, I think that... Look, I, I eat animal products. I have for a long time. And I eat a lot of vegetables as well. I think that an omnivorous diet is, is the key to health. That's what I believe.

James Wilks 1:03:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 I, I believe that meat helps you recover faster. I think it's more nutrient rich. I think there's things in meat that it's very difficult to get in plants. And I think the quality of the amino acids and the quality of the protein content-

James Wilks 1:03:51 Right. And definitely-

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 ... in meat is superior to that in plants.

James Wilks 1:03:53 Right. Definitely you should be getting the protein-

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 That was, let's, so talk about that because it's one of the things he brought up and I-

James Wilks 1:03:56 Can I, can I just say that I agree-

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 Sure.

James Wilks 1:03:57 ... with the type of meat that you eat.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 Mm-hmm.

James Wilks 1:04:00 We know that, like, there's not studies done on the inflammation in elk, but there is, uh, studies on inflammation in, uh, kangaroos for example in Australia.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 Mm-hmm.

James Wilks 1:04:08 So totally wild caught. So that's, like, their equivalent of elk, right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:11 Uh-huh.

James Wilks 1:04:12 And there is about half the inflammation coming from that as there is from beef.

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 Well, I would imagine. I mean, you're talking-

James Wilks 1:04:17 So-

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 ... about a much healthier, much higher protein c- th- the difference between the protein content in elk per ounce versus the protein content in beef is almost double. It's a giant difference.

James Wilks 1:04:27 Right. And we've just had, like, the randomized controlled trials I, I showed that showed less inflammation with eating red meat. No, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:34 Yes.

James Wilks 1:04:34 But the thing is that's (laughs) , it's tricky because when, is something healthy or is something inflammatory, it's always compared to what? So in some of these studies, what the industry does is they'll compare red meat to bacon or that, or, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll switch it up, but it's always to what? So you can-

Chris Kresser 1:04:49 It works the other way around. They compare a plant-based diet with the standard crap Western diet.

James Wilks 1:04:54 No, I agree.

Chris Kresser 1:04:54 That's, that's not-

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 But so, so, but-

Chris Kresser 1:04:55 ... that's not a, a, a good comparison.

James Wilks 1:04:57 Yeah. But I still don't see-

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 But I'm not ag-

Chris Kresser 1:04:58 ... and many of the studies-

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 But why are you saying meat is bad for you?

James Wilks 1:05:02 Well, so he, I mean, we just started with the heme iron, right?

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 But the heme iron in conjunction with plant-based foods.

James Wilks 1:05:07 Right. He's also-

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 He's showing, and he's, and he said it's because of the-

Chris Kresser 1:05:10 It offsets it.

James Wilks 1:05:11 ... quote that you gave is that o- big, one of the primary reasons is because of oxidation. Antioxidants deal with oxidation. You get oxidant, you get pro-oxidation from animal foods.

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Right.

James Wilks 1:05:19 You also get pro-oxidation from exercise. D- Now, there's an obvi-

Joe Rogan 1:05:23 But again, we're, we're talking about mechanis- you know, isolated mechanisms instead of outcomes.

James Wilks 1:05:27 Right, but you talk about, but Chris, you talk about mechanisms when you want to. And you talk about pre-clinical data when you want to.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 But for him-

Chris Kresser 1:05:34 I was talking, I was talking about them in response to the claims made in the film because-

James Wilks 1:05:37 No, no. You actually-

Chris Kresser 1:05:38 ... mechanisms were mentioned. Neu5Gc, TMAO, heme iron, and so I brought those up in, you know, to respond to them.

James Wilks 1:05:44 But, no, but that's not when you use them 'cause if you go on your website, you actually-

Chris Kresser 1:05:47 And, and then we... I'm not saying we shouldn't ever talk about mechanisms, James. I'm saying if, if you're talking about mechanisms, but the outcomes don't support the mechanism, then what's the point?

James Wilks 1:05:59 Well, I think we can get into epidemiology and look at that, but I think we should definitely hit protein because I think of everyone watching, like, that's the biggest myth and it's the