Joe Rogan Experience #1393 - James Wilks & Chris Kresser - The Game Changers Debate

1. 0:02 – 0:41

   Setting the stage: what’s being debated and how to evaluate nutrition claims

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:02

      All right, here we go. Uh, first of all, um, welcome, James. Good to see you.

   2. JWJames Wilks0:07

      I really appreciate you having me on.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      My pleasure. Um, and, uh, welcome again, Chris. Uh, so this is essentially, uh, giving you an opportunity to refute some of the things that Chris has said about your film. We should tell everybody that you... you're the producer of Game Changers?

   4. JWJames Wilks0:23

      Yeah, as one of... I'm one of two producers, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:24

      One of two producers. Uh, I know you also from, of course, from The Ultimate Fighter-

   6. JWJames Wilks0:28

      Yep.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      ... UFC. And Chris, this is your, what? Fourth appearance here, uh, up like that?

   8. CKChris Kresser0:32

      Fourth or fifth, yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:33

      Th- fourth or fifth. Um, did you get a chance to see what Chris had said?

   10. JWJames Wilks0:38

       Yeah, I've watched it. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       You watched it, okay, well-

   12. JWJames Wilks0:39

       I've ma- I've made a bunch of notes there.

2. 0:41 – 4:08

   Gladiators and the film’s opening claim: ‘mostly plants’ vs ‘vegan’

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:41

      Excellent. Let's start from the beginning. Um, the beginning of the show, the beginning of your film, you talked about the gladiators and all that stuff, and the, the fact that you were shocked to find out that they, they had eaten a vegetarian diet.

   2. JWJames Wilks0:56

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:56

      Yeah.

   4. JWJames Wilks0:56

      I mean, and I'll... You know, that's been misrepresented, right? So, even before the film came out, people are like, "Oh, there's this vegan film coming out. It's vegan propaganda." People were judging the film before they'd seen it, right? And the vegan sort of community really pushed it, like, "Hey, look at this documentary." So, there's been things saying, "They claim that the gladiators were vegan," right? "And if we can just prove... They think that the whole film is based on this premise." That was just like an inciting incident for me to start digging into it. First of all, Fabian Kent said they were predominantly vegetarian, and I said they ate mostly plants. And that is what I couldn't believe, right?

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:28

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JWJames Wilks1:28

      So, they, we didn't claim that they were vegan, didn't even claim that they were vegetarian, they were just fueled mostly by plants. You know, and people say, "Oh, you cherry-picked one location." It was the only known gladiator burial site in the world based on archeological and anthropological data at the time.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:42

      At the time where you read the study-

   8. JWJames Wilks1:44

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:44

      ... 'cause there, there have been other studies that were-

   10. JWJames Wilks1:45

       Well, there's been, there's been some that have been questioned. So, like, there's one in York. There was one in York at the time that had a few gladiator skeletons and it was questioned whether that was the thing. But I'm, I'm happy to address every critique.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:55

       Okay.

   12. JWJames Wilks1:55

       But if, if you wouldn't mind, I just wanna make sure that Chris and I are on the same page about how, um, evidence is evaluated.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:01

       Sure.

   14. JWJames Wilks2:01

       So, Chris, would you consider yourself a nutrition expert?

   15. CKChris Kresser2:06

       Um, no. I would consider myself someone who is adept at reading the literature and, um, learning from experts in nutrition, medicine, anthropology, et cetera. Although, I do have master's-

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       (coughs)

   17. CKChris Kresser2:21

       ... level training in nutrition.

   18. JWJames Wilks2:24

       Okay. So, is it fair to say that any one study cannot show what, you know, the human race should be eating? Is that fair? Any one study?

   19. CKChris Kresser2:32

       Absolutely.

   20. JWJames Wilks2:33

       So, basically, any time you show a study, if you say something, you have to give a citation for it, right?

   21. CKChris Kresser2:37

       Yeah.

   22. JWJames Wilks2:37

       Is that fair to say? And then someone can claim that that's cherry-picked. 'Cause that, you've got to show a study or some studies, and then someone can claim it's cherry-picked, right? So, what we have to do in order to understand nutrition is look at the totality of the evidence. And I just wanna make sure that we're on the same page, and then we can address each critique, if that's okay. Is that okay?

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:52

       Sure.

   24. CKChris Kresser2:52

       That is-

   25. JWJames Wilks2:53

       Okay.

   26. CKChris Kresser2:53

       ... the core of my argument.

   27. JWJames Wilks2:54

       Right, exactly. So, you would say... Is it fair to say, like, there's three main areas? So, there'd be, like, pre-clinical data, which would either be in animals or in test tubes, Petri dishes, right? There'd be observational data where you look at people, um, and see how they're doing. And obviously, there's the healthy user b- uh, healthy user bias potential. And then there's interventional trials, right? So, let's just take trans fats, for example, right? You, you look in a Petri dish at, uh, endothelial cells and trans fats, and it's, you can see that it creates, uh, vascular inflammation in those cells, right? And then you look at people who eat more trans fats and they have higher levels of inflammation. And then you can actually do interventional randomized control trials, and you can tell that trans fats cause inflammation. So, we, we basically all agree that trans fats are bad-

   28. CKChris Kresser3:37

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JWJames Wilks3:37

       ... based on all of those data points. Is that fair?

   30. CKChris Kresser3:39

       Mm-hmm.
3. 4:08 – 6:35

   ‘Appeal to authority’ vs expert consensus: guidelines, institutions, and bias

   1. JWJames Wilks4:08

      Fair enough. I, I agree with that. Okay, so basically, in philosophy, there's this, um, it's a logical fallacy called, uh, appeal to authority, right?

   2. CKChris Kresser4:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JWJames Wilks4:17

      But in the real world, you know, you have to look at experts that are specialists in their field. So, if I, you know, I just got shoulder surgery not long ago, right? So, I went to a shoulder surgeon. I didn't go to a dentist. If I wanna learn about comedy or, you know, fight announcing, I might come and talk to you, right? If I want to learn about acupuncture or understand chi more, I might come to Chris because you've got a master's degree in traditional Oriental medicine. You're a licensed acupuncturist, right? So, if I want to learn about that, Chris is someone that I might want to go to. So, what I'm saying is, the World Health Organization, the FAO, the, uh, American Heart Association, the two... 2005, uh, '15, 2020 dietary guidelines, are all suggesting to eat predominantly plant-based diets, right? And they're saying that vegetarian and vegan diets are healthier for all life stages, including for pregnancy, uh, childbirth, uh, so through childbirth, uh, breastfeeding, adolescents, athletes, and so on, okay?

   4. CKChris Kresser5:08

      And I-

   5. JWJames Wilks5:08

      That's the, that's the general con- consensus. Can I just, just finish this out here?

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:11

      Sure.

   7. JWJames Wilks5:12

      Okay. And so... And I've got a bunch of slides. If you don't believe anything, I've got a bunch of slides showing the position papers for all of these, uh...

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:19

      It's okay. Go ahead.

   9. JWJames Wilks5:19

      So we'll skip through that. So, but that's... You, you'd agree that those... Oh, yes or no? Would you-

   10. CKChris Kresser5:23

       No, I wouldn't necessarily agree on the-

   11. JWJames Wilks5:25

       Okay, so then let's, let's go to the slides.

   12. CKChris Kresser5:26

       ... recommendation of each of those.

   13. JWJames Wilks5:27

       Okay, so can we go to slide one?

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:28

       But what he's saying is-

   15. CKChris Kresser5:28

       Those recommendations change over time and have changed.

   16. JWJames Wilks5:30

       No, they do change over time and they become-

   17. CKChris Kresser5:32

       And I would, I would also say that I'm on a predominantly plant-based diet.

   18. JWJames Wilks5:35

       Well, exactly, so, so-

   19. CKChris Kresser5:36

       So if you, if you look at-

   20. JWJames Wilks5:36

       ... then what are we arguing about?

   21. CKChris Kresser5:37

       If you look at... Two-thirds of my plate is plants.

   22. JWJames Wilks5:40

       Oh, yeah, that's fair.

   23. CKChris Kresser5:40

       Well, this was my, this was, this was my point before.

   24. JWJames Wilks5:43

       Yeah, but now you're being unfair. That's really, really unfair because last time you pointed out that the totality of coverage of the plate is not reflective of the calories. You said that on the, on the, on the-

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:51

       Yeah, but that has nothing to do with what he's saying.

   26. CKChris Kresser5:52

       That's not what I'm saying.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:53

       He's not talking about calories. He's talking about what is predominantly his diet.

   28. JWJames Wilks5:56

       No, you gotta base it on-

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:57

       It's mostly plants, but-

   30. JWJames Wilks5:58

       You gotta base it on calories.
4. 6:35 – 11:48

   Cigarettes analogy dispute: marketing ‘playbook’ and the implication about meat

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:35

      An- yeah, but the, the film essentially was all about only eating plants.

   2. JWJames Wilks6:39

      No. Okay. So-

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:40

      There was no recommendation whatsoever about eating animals.

   4. CKChris Kresser6:44

      There was no ex- there were references about how animal products will kill you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:46

      No, there's not... I don't think-

   6. CKChris Kresser6:46

      Dairy products will kill you. All, all kinds of different animal foods.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:48

      Meat is like cigarettes.

   8. JWJames Wilks6:50

      No, no. That, that, that claim was never made. See-

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:52

      But there was a connection. There was a con-

   10. JWJames Wilks6:53

       No, there was not.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:54

       There was an inferred connection-

   12. JWJames Wilks6:55

       No, there was not.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:56

       ... to c- what was the connection to cigarettes then?

   14. JWJames Wilks6:57

       The connection to cigarettes was that the, the way... The playbook that is being used by the... See, that's people are conflating like What the Health and the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:04

       The playbook is the same playbook that they use-

   16. JWJames Wilks7:06

       The playbook is the, the same way they're using athletes and they're using advertising. We never made the claim, which I, that, where the-

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:10

       Explain that then. Be, be clear.

   18. JWJames Wilks7:12

       Okay. So, the playbook that was used by the, the, uh, smoking industry. So-

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:17

       Yes.

   20. JWJames Wilks7:17

       ... they pay for studies.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:18

       Right.

   22. JWJames Wilks7:19

       Right? And, and we know even with food, right? This has been done with cigarettes, it's been done with drugs, it's been done with food. Research shows that industry-funded studies are four to time, four to eight times more likely to have a conclusion in their favor for their product.

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:34

       Okay.

   24. JWJames Wilks7:34

       So, this is what the smoking industry did. Then they got doctors to say that smoking wasn't bad, and then they got athletes to show like, "Hey, smoking's good." That was the parallel that we drew. We never drew the, the parallel that was drawn in What The Health so I wanna make that really clear. There was ne- and I've seen this in, in articles saying, "Here, you know, they con- they connected meat..." We didn't do that. Like, if you watch the film, we never said-

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:54

       Well, why did you? Why did you have that in there though if you're not saying that meat-

   26. JWJames Wilks7:57

       Because they're using the same playbook.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:58

       If you're not saying that meat causes cancer, you're saying that they're using the same playbook.

   28. CKChris Kresser8:03

       Wait, wait, wait a second. There are some specific claims that chicken, eating chicken and fish causes cancer. Eating dairy causes cancer.

   29. JWJames Wilks8:09

       Yeah, we... Yeah, and-

   30. CKChris Kresser8:09

       There are quotes from doctors, vegan doctors in the film.
5. 11:48 – 27:06

   Dairy and cancer meta-analysis: what does ‘84%’ really mean?

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:48

      No, I'm not interested. I'm not, I'm actually not that interested in consensus of experts. I'm looking at the research that is published, the peer-reviewed research that is published including meta-analyses and even reviews of meta-analyses that have been done. A perfect example is the whole dairy and cancer section-

   2. JWJames Wilks12:04

      Totally.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:05

      ... that we talked about where you had, had argued, or Walter Willett argued that there's...

   4. JWJames Wilks12:09

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:09

      ... you know, dairy products cause cancer. And I pointed to a meta-analysis that looked at over 150 different reviews-

   6. JWJames Wilks12:16

      Mm-hmm. Yep.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:16

      ... that f- and 84% of those found no association. So, how is that not part of this discussion where we're talking about-

   8. CKChris Kresser12:25

      ... hundreds of scientists across different continents, different countries. They're using peer-reviewed-

   9. JWJames Wilks12:31

      So-

   10. CKChris Kresser12:32

       ... science-

   11. JWJames Wilks12:32

       So-

   12. CKChris Kresser12:32

       ... to show this, but in, in the movie, just one expert is pointing to, you know, one group of studies without mentioning that. That seems-

   13. JWJames Wilks12:41

       Okay.

   14. CKChris Kresser12:41

       ... disingenuous.

   15. JWJames Wilks12:42

       That's, that's a fair point, right? So this is the 2018 meta-analysis. Have you got a slide for that, or ... If not, I've got your slide, 107. Slide 107.

   16. CKChris Kresser12:50

       No, this is a 2019 meta-analysis.

   17. JWJames Wilks12:52

       Oh, yeah, 2019.

   18. CKChris Kresser12:53

       But-

   19. JWJames Wilks12:53

       153 studies, right?

   20. CKChris Kresser12:54

       Yeah, and I can ... We can get-

   21. JWJames Wilks12:55

       Now, I'm really glad you-

   22. CKChris Kresser12:55

       We can get-

   23. JWJames Wilks12:56

       I'm really-

   24. CKChris Kresser12:56

       ... a lot further into it-

   25. JWJames Wilks12:57

       No, I-

   26. CKChris Kresser12:58

       ... 'cause that's not-

   27. JWJames Wilks12:58

       I'd love to.

   28. CKChris Kresser12:58

       ... the only one.

   29. JWJames Wilks12:59

       I'd love to. 'Cause at nine o'clock last night, until nine o'clock last night, I thought Chris just made a bunch of mistakes interpreting the data. And I'm gonna show you how he is misleading people on this study. Okay? So if you can bring up slide, uh, 107, Jamie. Uh, is there ... Can we see the slide?

   30. CKChris Kresser13:15

       Yeah, yeah. I'll put it up.
6. 27:06 – 36:05

   Prostate cancer focus and lactose intolerance: mechanism vs outcomes

   1. JWJames Wilks27:06

      I agree. I agree, and that's why they didn't find it. But can I just... The reason you point this up is prostate cancer, right? (smacks lips) And, and so if you look at slide, uh, 113.

   2. JRJoe Rogan27:14

      P- prostate cancer was, that's disturbing. So it's 50/50 with dairy consumption-

   3. JWJames Wilks27:18

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan27:18

      ... versus-

   5. JWJames Wilks27:19

      Uh, wait, that's not... One... Sorry, 113.

   6. JRJoe Rogan27:21

      But a lot of people get prostate cancer too. Isn't that a- also an issue? That's a high risk.

   7. JWJames Wilks27:26

      That is one 13.

   8. JRJoe Rogan27:27

      Isn't that a, a high risk for males, prostate cancer?

   9. CKChris Kresser27:31

      Yeah.

   10. JWJames Wilks27:31

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:32

       It's a high one, whether it they-

   12. JWJames Wilks27:33

       Sorry, 112.

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:34

       ... whether they consume milk or not.

   14. JWJames Wilks27:37

       So just so, uh, I, in this meta-analysis that you point to, the highest connection that they could find between dairy and any type of cancer was prostate cancer. So if you look at the black line, that shows no association. If you look at the green line, that's decreased association, and the red line was increased association. That was the meta-analysis that you provided.

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:54

       Yeah.

   16. JWJames Wilks27:55

       So-

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:56

       Yeah.

   18. JWJames Wilks27:56

       ... you brought, you brought this study up because Doctor Walter Willett, who is the chair of nutrition at Harvard, he's one of the most published nutrition scientists of all time, if not the most published.

   19. CKChris Kresser28:05

       No disagreement there.

   20. JWJames Wilks28:06

       Right? And so he is coming to the determination that prostate cancer is linked, and it's likely that it's causal. And this very study-

   21. CKChris Kresser28:14

       Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up. Half and half. That's not ca-

   22. JWJames Wilks28:17

       No, no, no.

   23. CKChris Kresser28:17

       That's no evidence of a causal relationship, James.

   24. JWJames Wilks28:20

       (laughs) No.

   25. CKChris Kresser28:20

       There's no evidence of a causal relationship.

   26. JWJames Wilks28:23

       No, no. Okay. Doctor Walter Willett is, in, in just about any type of-

   27. CKChris Kresser28:26

       Let's talk about this study-

   28. JWJames Wilks28:27

       Yeah.

   29. CKChris Kresser28:27

       ... rather than appeal to authority. You just said yourself that's a rhetorical fallacy-

   30. JWJames Wilks28:32

       No, it's-
7. 36:05 – 48:17

   What the debate is really about: 100% plant-based vs plant-forward omnivory

   1. CKChris Kresser36:05

      You... Are you arguing that there's a dominant consensus among nutrition experts in the US that everyone should be on a vegan diet?

   2. JWJames Wilks36:14

      No.

   3. CKChris Kresser36:15

      So, w- what's the arg-... what's the argument here? That we should... people should eat plants? And my argument is yes, they should.

   4. JWJames Wilks36:24

      I think-

   5. CKChris Kresser36:24

      And, and animal products can also be part of that nutrivore, healthy, omni- omnivorous diet. And I think you would find a dominant consensus of nutrition experts that agree with that.

   6. JWJames Wilks36:35

      So, it should be-

   7. CKChris Kresser36:36

      But that, that's not the way this film is being interpreted. This film is-

   8. JWJames Wilks36:40

      Right. Because it was interpret-... There was a bias going into it. So, for example, when you go to the US military, right? The Game Changers is the first documentary that has ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency for the Department of Defense. It's the first documentary that has ever been supported by the Special Operations Medical Association. They didn't come into it looking at the science. This has been evaluated by hundreds of PhD researchers to come to that conclusion. Okay? They did not come into it-

   9. JRJoe Rogan37:05

      Wait a minute, wait a minute. How so? It been evaluated? How so?

   10. JWJames Wilks37:07

       You can't get an accreditation from the D-

   11. JRJoe Rogan37:09

       Your film is-

   12. JWJames Wilks37:09

       Yes.

   13. JRJoe Rogan37:09

       ... being evaluated by-

   14. JWJames Wilks37:11

       The, the Depart... The Defense Health Agency or the Department of Defense, which decides what the military's eating, they don't give a crap about, "Oh, let's, let's base our diets on evo- on, on evolution." They care on what is the science. And the doc, Game Changers is the first documentary that's ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency. They didn't look at this and go, "Okay. Um, this is a vegan propaganda film." They-

   15. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       But, but why are you saying that hundreds of PhDs have reviewed this and reviewed all the data-

   16. JWJames Wilks37:37

       Because-

   17. JRJoe Rogan37:37

       ... in it to come to this conclusion? And is this proven? Is this printed?

   18. JWJames Wilks37:41

       Is this-

   19. JRJoe Rogan37:42

       Is this some published paper w- where it shows-

   20. JWJames Wilks37:44

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan37:44

       ... that hundreds of people have reviewed this film and found all the claims to be credible, and that all the debunkings of it are not?

   22. JWJames Wilks37:50

       The, the Defense Health Agency has reviewed this film in detail, digging into each of the studies.

   23. JRJoe Rogan37:56

       Right. But you're saying, you again called to authority, you're saying hundreds of PhDs have, have studied this. Who are these people?

   24. JWJames Wilks38:02

       Yes. Well, there's, there's a lot from the Defense Health Agency. There's a lot of people at the Special Operations and Bacterization that came to the decision, and these are master's degrees in nutrition, PhDs in nutrition, to get that accreditation. That just hasn't happened before, because they didn't come into it thinking, "This is a vegan propaganda film."

   25. CKChris Kresser38:19

       Or, or-

   26. JWJames Wilks38:19

       That was the bias going into it.

   27. CKChris Kresser38:21

       We're, again, talking a lot about experts and, and their opinions.

   28. JWJames Wilks38:25

       Experts, right.

   29. CKChris Kresser38:26

       And, and less-

   30. JWJames Wilks38:26

       Experts, experts and their opinions, and not Chris Kresser and his opinion.
8. 48:17 – 55:28

   Carbohydrate definitions controversy: ‘low-carb’ labels and clinical practice vs literature

   1. JWJames Wilks48:17

      But the thing is, Chris has his own... He doesn't have the consensus, um, definitions of carbohydrate levels. You've made up your own definitions, right?

   2. CKChris Kresser48:24

      When did I make up my own definitions?

   3. JWJames Wilks48:25

      Well, this is slide, uh, 80. Jamie, if, if you could do that, please?

   4. JRJoe Rogan48:31

      Let's just point out that Zach Bitter, the man who I had on the podcast yesterday, who holds the world record-

   5. JWJames Wilks48:35

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan48:36

      ... in running 100 miles in 11 hours and I think it's 18 minutes, uh, he's on a low carbohydrate diet.

   7. JWJames Wilks48:43

      Yeah. And, and again, you get those slow and steady state, you can certainly do well.

   8. JRJoe Rogan48:47

      Yeah.

   9. JWJames Wilks48:48

      Um, so, so Chris, your recommendation, your, your definition of low carb is 10 to 15%. Uh, if you can go to the next slide, Jamie, 81. So if you look at the peer-reviewed literature, it's either less than 30% or, the next slide, Jamie, less than 40%. Like if you look across all the literatures, less than 30 or 40. Moderate carb, according to Chris...--uh, next slide, Jamie, would be 15 to 30. Uh, peer-reviewed literature, next car- next slide, 40 to 65. And then high carb, Chris calls more than 30% in the peer-reviewed literature. High carb, more than 65, uh, in the next slide, more than 70, depending on the peer-reviewed literature. So, you've come up with your own definitions of what is low, moderate, and high carb.

   10. CKChris Kresser49:29

       Yeah, just for the purpose of my work-

   11. JWJames Wilks49:31

       You just said no, it's- Joe- Joe.

   12. CKChris Kresser49:31

       ... for the purpose of my work with people that, that's not relate- I wasn't trying to represent research there.

   13. JWJames Wilks49:37

       Right, Joe-

   14. CKChris Kresser49:37

       That's just-

   15. JWJames Wilks49:38

       Joe...

   16. CKChris Kresser49:38

       ... that's what I consider to be low carb, moderate carb, and high carb in my work with patients-

   17. JWJames Wilks49:44

       Okay, Joe, did you-

   18. CKChris Kresser49:44

       ... and in my recommendations.

   19. JWJames Wilks49:45

       ... Joe, did you not just hear him say-

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:47

       Wait, but he did, I mean, th- that is what you said. I mean, you, when you wrote this out, you did have a different definition than the peer-reviewed literature.

   21. JWJames Wilks49:56

       So go to slide- slide 88. Slide 88.

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:57

       You do, by his definition, have your own idea-

   23. JWJames Wilks50:01

       And he said no.

   24. JRJoe Rogan50:01

       ... of what high carb and low carb is.

   25. JWJames Wilks50:02

       You heard him say that, you heard him say no.

   26. JRJoe Rogan50:03

       Yes.

   27. CKChris Kresser50:04

       Yeah.

   28. JWJames Wilks50:04

       And so slide, uh, slide 88, please Jamie. So, I just want to sum this up. Um...

   29. CKChris Kresser50:09

       But what's the point here?

   30. JWJames Wilks50:10

       Because the point is- the point I said-
9. 55:28 – 1:06:09

   Heme iron and ‘forest plots’: technical literacy and interpreting meta-analyses

   1. JRJoe Rogan55:28

      We still haven't b- come to this under- understanding of why you think meat is bad for you. You are basing it-

   2. JWJames Wilks55:34

      Oh, sure. Well, okay, so, so there's the individual components, like heme iron, for example, uh...

   3. CKChris Kresser55:39

      We talked about that last time. The heme iron is only associated with poor outcomes in the US. It's not in other-

   4. JWJames Wilks55:46

      That's actually not true.

   5. CKChris Kresser55:46

      It's not, it's not-

   6. JWJames Wilks55:47

      That's actually not true.

   7. CKChris Kresser55:48

      ... in, in other countries.

   8. JWJames Wilks55:49

      It's actually not true. That's not true.

   9. JRJoe Rogan55:50

      But let's-

   10. CKChris Kresser55:50

       When you-

   11. JRJoe Rogan55:50

       ... let's let him, and then we can refute it.

   12. JWJames Wilks55:51

       That's not true. Okay.

   13. JRJoe Rogan55:52

       You can refute it. Hold on.

   14. JWJames Wilks55:52

       Do you know how, do you know how-

   15. JRJoe Rogan55:53

       Hold on. Let him get... Yeah, sure.

   16. CKChris Kresser55:54

       In the Fang, in the Fang meta analysis, which looks at most of the studies that have been done on that, and then if you also consider that when you add green vegetables and other plant foods, spices, and all of that, it reduces the oxidative capacity of heme iron and reduces the absorption of heme iron. And you know, again, we're talking about diet pattern, not just, is red, are you eating red meat, uh, you know, in McDonald's and fast food restaurants, but if, are you eating it in the context of an overall healthy diet? And does that have the same effect?

   17. JWJames Wilks56:29

       Right. Do you know how to read a forest plot?

   18. CKChris Kresser56:31

       (lips smacking) Uh ... (sighs)

   19. JWJames Wilks56:34

       Yes or no?

   20. CKChris Kresser56:35

       I don't.

   21. JRJoe Rogan56:37

       What does that mean?

   22. JWJames Wilks56:38

       That's basically looking at the statist- the confidence intervals.

   23. JRJoe Rogan56:40

       What's it called, the forest block?

   24. JWJames Wilks56:41

       Forest plot.

   25. JRJoe Rogan56:42

       Plot. Okay.

   26. JWJames Wilks56:43

       Yeah, 'cause it kind of looks like a bunch of trees, right?

   27. JRJoe Rogan56:44

       Okay.

   28. JWJames Wilks56:45

       So you don't know how to read a forest plot. (smacks lips) So have you actually looked at the study that you referenced?

   29. CKChris Kresser56:50

       I have looked at the study.

   30. JWJames Wilks56:50

       Okay, so I just, well, you don't know how to read it, so it's kind of ... so ... (microphone thumping)

Episode duration: 3:42:18