Joe Rogan Experience #1399 - Pavel Tsatsouline

1. 0:04 – 0:50

   Meeting Pavel Tsatsouline and why kettlebells were ‘normal’ in the USSR

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      All right, here we go. What's up, man? How are you?

   2. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:06

      Joe, great to be on the show.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to meet you, and an honor. I've, I've been following your work for a long time, man. I mean-

   4. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:13

      Thank you, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      ... I was first introduced to you and your methods by Steve Maxwell, who was a, you know, a huge proponent of the kettlebell. And then I started getting into your videos.

   6. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:22

      A very smart coach, yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Yeah, very good. And, uh, I started getting into your videos, and I've read your books. And, uh, so-

   8. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:28

      Thank you.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:28

      ... for me, it's an honor.

   10. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:29

       My pleasure.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       How long have you been, uh, teaching and practicing with kettlebells? Since you were little?

   12. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:36

       Something like that, medium.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       (laughs) Since you were medium-sized?

   14. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:38

       Medium-sized. Yeah, it's kind of like baseball, you know.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       In-

   16. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:40

       It's a pretty common thing.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       ... in Russia?

   18. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:42

       In the Soviet Union, yeah, it is.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Why didn't it catch on here until you came over here?

2. 0:50 – 2:52

   How kettlebells caught on in America: Milo magazine, Marty Gallagher, and early evangelism

   1. PTPavel Tsatsouline0:50

      You know what? I don't think people really tried. I don't think people really understood that it would catch on, and I did not think it would happen either. So I'm sitting with my friend, Marty Gallagher, having steaks, years back. Marty is a former coach for Powerlifting Team USA and, uh, coach of some top lifters. And you were just trading old war stories, talk- talking about stuff, and I told him about kettlebells. He says, "Well, you've got to teach Americans how to do that." And I said, "Marty, you don't understand. This stuff is too hard. Nobody's gonna wanna do this." And he said, "You don't understand. People want to do this." And, uh, I wrote an article for, based on Marty's suggestion, for Milo. So Milo was a publication, niche publication, for strange guys who lift rocks, and bend things, and break things, and so on and so forth. And, uh, so that was the start of it. And then after that, I told my publisher about it, and, uh, he said, "Well, come on, let's just make kettlebells and teach people." I had told him the same thing, "You don't understand, that people will not wanna do this. This is too hard." And, but he convinced me, and they convinced me, and the rest is history.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      Why did you think that it was popular in the Soviet Union but wouldn't be popular in America?

   3. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:05

      You know, this is something that you just see. It's a very common thing though, so you just see this, you don't think much about this. Um, who knows?

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:15

      Yeah, but it was popular over there.

   5. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:17

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:17

      And effective.

   7. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:18

      Since at least, since at least 1700s, or possibly before that.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      But this country is so-

   9. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:24

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:25

       ... performance-oriented and so sports-oriented and so competitive. Why wouldn't you think that that would be sort of a natural training modality, that would, they would immediately adopt it?

   11. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:35

       You got me there.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       So you just assumed-

   13. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:37

       But in the US, some years back, decades before, there was some, some kettlebells were used by some old-time strongmen like Zig Klein, for example.

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:45

       Mm-hmm.

   15. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:46

       And there was a company named Milo, no relations to the magazine.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:49

       Really?

   17. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:50

       Back about 100 years ago-

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       What is this thing, obsession with Milo? Why-

3. 2:52 – 4:43

   The Milo-of-Crotona myth and why linear progress eventually stalls

   1. PTPavel Tsatsouline2:52

      It's a different Milo. Oh, Milo is the guy who carried the, uh, the calf. So if you go, if you look, um, okay, the progressive overload is usually explained as this legend of Milo of Crotona. So this guy started carrying a little calf on his shoulders, and he would carry the calf every day. So the calf would grow, and eventually the guy became very strong.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:15

      Ah.

   3. PTPavel Tsatsouline3:15

      So that's why that name is present in, uh, in the strengths game. So back then, today it is just one of the finest publications on strength training, mostly niche things again, like gripping.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:28

      I wonder if anyone's actually done that. Like, carry a calf-

   5. PTPavel Tsatsouline3:30

      It would not work.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:31

      It would not work?

   7. PTPavel Tsatsouline3:32

      No.

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:32

      That, isn't it amazing that something can grow physically faster than you can keep lifting it?

   9. PTPavel Tsatsouline3:39

      It absolutely can, but, you know, your typical training plan that people say, "I'm gonna add five pounds to my bench press today, and I'm gonna do this every week, and then by Christmas, I'll be the world champion."

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       (laughs)

   11. PTPavel Tsatsouline3:50

       And it just doesn't work. So the rate of adaptation is such that your body just cannot do that. And it's cyclical in nature, so you have to, to put it in the Milo terms, uh, you have to, after you carry the calf for a while, it grows, you have to back off to a lighter calf, and start, you know, start building up again.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:11

       Mm-hmm.

   13. PTPavel Tsatsouline4:12

       Why? We do not know exactly. So for some reason, that unidirectional adaptation, just in one needle, we're getting stronger at the bench press or what have you, or at carrying the calf, it just cannot proceed indefinitely. There is some fatigue of some endocrine mechanisms, some genetic mechanisms. We do not know that. But tactically, we do have, uh, tricks of the trade to beat that, to work around that. And there's a number of ways of doing that.

4. 4:43 – 7:20

   Step loading (constant weight): ‘solidifying’ gains for reliable progress

   1. PTPavel Tsatsouline4:43

      The oldest way of doing that, and it's very smart, still very smart for a lot of people, they would call this, I think, possibly constant weight training or something like that. But the Soviets described it as step loading. So let's look at your typical, let's look at your typical beginner, somebody in the gym. And so the person starts lifting whatever weight, for whatever reps. And the next week, let's say next week he adds five pounds. And he does it again and he does it again. Well, the Soviets figured out that it's much better for him to stay at the same weight for several weeks and then make a bigger jump.

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:29

      Hmm.

   3. PTPavel Tsatsouline5:30

      So what you're doing pretty much is you are the, making the adaptations more stable. And it just happens on the cellular levels. Membranes become stronger and so on. But old-timers just, they would say that you're solidifying the gains. So the way that many old-timers trained is they would just take the same weight and then stay with the same weight for a long time. In the beginning, it's challenging. And then it becomes kind of comfortable, then it becomes almost easy, and they would jump up. So that's just one way of doing it. And today, it's not unprecedented either. If you look at, uh, Chris Sommer, he's a gymnastics coach, he used that with gymnasts.... it's very common. I use that tactic with my, the latest edition of my Kettlebell Simple & Sinister, because it's much more reliable than just progressive overload, and also because psychologically, first of all, it weeds out the impatient people. So you're told to stay with the same load for a while. Some people automatically say, "Oh, forget it. I cannot do that." Well, I don't want these people following my stuff anyway. And second, so you're staying with this weight or these reps for some time. In the beginning, they challenge you, and then some time goes by and suddenly they don't anymore. So it just very much is a very clear, clearer sense of accomplishment. So this is called step loading, or using the old-timers, old-timers' terminology, the constant weight training. If you look at the other ways of making progress, so another approach is called cycling. And cycling... So the one that I just described, that would really be if we could artificially stop the growth of the calf. Like, okay, stop growing-

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:19

      Mm-hmm.

5. 7:20 – 11:22

   Wave cycling and periodization: classic American powerlifting templates and recovery limits

   1. PTPavel Tsatsouline7:20

      ... for a while, which we can't. But the cycling, this is where I mentioned earlier, this is where you go back to a lighter calf. So the classic American powerlifting, uh, training template, this is cycling. So the s- history of cycling is very interesting. Again, what cycling is, cycling is, in the simplest possible terms, you take 12 weeks. You start with light weights, uh, you build up until you go really heavy. And that was the predominant strength training system in the '70s and the '80s, and that was the strength system behind the dominant American powerlifting team. So, lifters like Eddie Cohn, Kurt Kawowski, lifters like Don Austin, who is, uh... or Lamar Gant, whose deadlift records still stand decades after the use this classic cycling. So the classic cycling, you start with the moderate, uh, moderately challenging load, then you keep proceeding, go heavier and heavier and heavier. Then you compete, then you start over. And to give you, um, to give you a very simple tactic that's something that your listeners can use in their training, whether they follow the cycling format or they do something else, is that Russian scientist discovery that your endocrine system pretty much can take, uh, two, two weeks out of four of heavy loading. That's just the way it is. There are some exceptions if you... but forget exceptions. Generally, just two weeks of heavy loading. And if you look at the classic powerlifting cycles by, let's say, Marty Gallagher, so for four weeks you do sets of eight, four weeks sets of five, four weeks sets of three. And in week one, you start out with a weight that's comfortable; in week two, moderately challenging; in week three, you hit your, repeat your previous PR for those reps; and in week four, you set your new PR; and then you jump to the next rep count. So as you see in this particular, uh, template, you have two weeks, two hard weeks of training out of the month. And that's just one of the many ways of doing that. Pardon me, I got distracted. So I wa- wanted to talk about the history of cycling.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:52

      Yeah.

   3. PTPavel Tsatsouline9:52

      So Bill Starr, who was a huge name in the game, he, uh, he was a former, uh, top weightlifter in the United States back in the '60s. Later on, very successful coach, strength coach and, uh, author. The Strongest Shall Survive, his, uh, book on strength training for football, remains one of the best strength training books. And Bill Starr recalls that American lifters started getting a whiff of some Russian paradise programs. So what's periodization? Periodization, the simplest terms, is planning your training according to certain principles to end at peak performance. So that's just the really kind of a 50,000 level, 50,000-foot, uh, definition. And they did not have the full, full information about how it was done, so they just decided to do exactly that. And that was a very successful, very successful approach to strength training. It does not necessarily work for everybody. There are some reasons for that, uh, mostly because of your sport competition, if you're an athlete. But it's extremely effective, as was shown on the platform. And finally, so first we discussed step cycling, step loading, which is constant training. Second, we discussed, uh, uh, wave cycling, which is just cycling, right? Wave

6. 11:22 – 15:43

   Variable loading and the Soviet weightlifting system: Delta-20 ‘controlled chaos’

   1. PTPavel Tsatsouline11:22

      loading. And the third one would be the variable loading, and variable loading is, is extremely unique. It's unlike something else. So here's how variable loading works. In variable loading, you have certain load parameters. Like, for example, you will know that your average training weights will be 75% of your maximum. You will know that you will perform, for example, 300 squats per month or whatever. So these numbers were arrived at experimentally over decades. And what variable loading does, as opposed to the traditional methods, traditional progressive overload, is that the jump in volume, for example, from one-... training unit to another, one day, one week, one month, and so on, it's at least 20%, so the jumps are really high, really high. The variable loading was developed by Professor, uh, Arkady Vorobyov, who was a Olympic weightlifting champion, and he was the premier sports scientist. So he argued that in nature, most changes are discrete. They're not gradual, they're discrete. So whatever, whatever adapt- adaptation take place in your body, the same thing whatever happens with many physical process, chemical processes, and so on. So he concluded that training has to be highly variable. So you understand when I mean that it's a 20% minimal change, we call that Delta 20 Principle. It doesn't mean that it's constantly going up, that's just not possible. It goes up and down, it just keeps whiplashing. So if we use... if we go back to the traditional cycling as an example, the traditional cycling, so it's a linear build-up, back up a little, linear build-up, back up a little. In contrast, variable overload, it's, it's going crazy. It's completely insane. In fact, this is a little entertaining. Experienced strength coaches and, uh, especially people with some sort of a background in mathematics, they are able to dissect and analyze training plans from other coaches. You can look at a plan, you can take an experienced, uh, powerlifting coach, show him a program from another coach, and the coach will be able to tell whether this will work or not, who this will work for and so on, and kind of figure out what... figure out what's under the hood right there. So there's a very clear pattern. Variable overload... So it's like a photograph. It's very clear. Variable overload, if you start analyzing the pattern, looking at the program... So for example, Boris Shikov, he's, um, uh, he's a former coach of Russian National Powerlifting Team. So he took the Soviet Olympic weightlifting methodology and directly applied it to powerlifting. So his clients have made their way to the West, and some lifters used them very successfully, but whenever you try to read this plan and try to make any sense of that, it just drives you crazy, because you see, like, okay, here's a string, here's a pattern, it's going right here and suddenly it's gone. So if traditional cycling is like clear photograph, the variable overload makes me think of, uh... remember in Ferris Bueller's Day Off where the kid is looking at, uh, Seurat's painting? You know-

   2. NANarrator15:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. PTPavel Tsatsouline15:13

      ... the pointillist, there all these dots right there? So when you step away, you see something. You start getting closer, just a whole bunch of dots. It just disappears. So what's the story behind that? So the story is this. This method, the Soviet Olympic weightlifting method, was developed, uh, over several decades by a number of coaches, by a number of scientists, so it's a very much collaborative effort. So Vorobyov was one for sure, Medvedev,

7. 15:43 – 27:13

   What Soviet coaches actually found: optimal intensities, volumes, and ‘half your max reps’

   1. PTPavel Tsatsouline15:43

      Cherniak, a number of others. And it was a very... bef- by- by- before even dissecting this method, let me tell you how, how successful this method was. (swallows) You can look up the world, uh, weightlifting records and Olympic weightlifting and hear about all these different records set by this lifter, that lifter, and so on and so forth. If you... Few people realize that the International Weightlifting Federation has changed the weight classes at- two or three times since the '80s, and the reason they did that is to erase the drug, the record set by the drug-taking athletes back then. Of course, you know, I'm very happy that as soon as they changed the weight classes, lifters stopped taking drugs like that. So if you look at these records, kilo per kilo, pound per pound, and if you chart them, compare them to what they did then to what they do today, you will find that while they did catch up in a few weight classes, in about half of these classes, the records from the '80s still stand. So for example, what Yurik Vardanyan did in 1980 at, uh, 82 kilos, he totaled 400 kilos in the snatch and the clean and jerk. That's never been done before. And Yurik Vardanyan was a wiry guy. You wouldn't have taken him for a lifter. Just amazing. So first of all, the system still remains, if we're just taking a very large, big picture, 50,000-foot look at strength, there are a great many ways of getting strong. Some of them very good, some that are mediocre, some that are very bad, but historically in lifting sports, the two systems that have been predominant are the Soviet weightlifting system and the American classic powerlifting system from the '70s and '80s. Okay? So that was kind of a long detour to... before I tell you why the stuff that they figured out back in 1960s, why it matters just to say it still is the best, it still rules. So what they did is, was very empirical. In... for example, when you're studying endurance, going into the cell, uh, studying the biochemistry of the cell in the body, taking it apart, figuring out how this works is very helpful. Very. On the other hand, when you're dealing with strength, that approach has been, uh, not really effective.So if we talk about muscle, muscle training, for example, hypertrophy, we still have no idea what the hell's going on. So we can... We know which buttons to push, but that's just empirical knowledge. That's not the understanding of the cell. So-

   2. JRJoe Rogan18:36

      So we really don't u- understand hypertrophy?

   3. PTPavel Tsatsouline18:38

      No.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:38

      Really?

   5. PTPavel Tsatsouline18:39

      No, we do not.

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:40

      Wow.

   7. PTPavel Tsatsouline18:41

      No. And let's... I'll be happy to talk about this, but if you don't mind-

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:44

      Okay, yeah, please, please.

   9. PTPavel Tsatsouline18:44

      ... let me just finish on this variable overload and the Soviet weightlifting system. So, what they did, even though they also... you know, they got the muscle look at that as well, just didn't learn as much. But the coaches programmed particular loads for athletes, and watch what happened. And then they watched how the athletes performed, and they watched how the top athletes performed, and they looked for patterns. And they were very open-minded, so they're not thinking like, "Well, it's gotta be just the heaviest weights will do that," or, "It's gotta be the training to failure is gonna do that." It's not the case. So just to give you an example of how enormous that undertaking was, so typical strength training studies, what? Six weeks for some untrained college subjects, you know, guys who are just on their phones. Professor Medvedev, who was also world champion, he studied the training loads of top weightlifters only when they were successful in competition for four Olympic cycles. Four. So we're talking about 16 years, and then somebody else do it for another cycle. And there were just an amazing patterns just emerged. So for instance, I'm gonna give you, give you a rundown of what the patterns are. (drinks water) There are certain optimal volumes, how much exercise you do. There are certain optimal intensities. So if you follow the variable overload method, the optimal intensity, so the average intensity, would be about 75% of your max, which for most people would be probably somewhere like eight reps or something you could do, maybe 10, eh, maybe eight. And you will see that about half of all the lifts that you do are about 75%, 80%. Now, where do all the rest, the other lifts come in? So there's a normal distribution, so you'll find that 75%, 80% are on the top, 80%, 85% a little bit lower, you know? So the lighter weights, like 60%, are on the bottom, and the heavy weights, like 90% and, and higher are on the bottom as well. So they figured out you just have to do most of your work with these average weights. They are not so light, so you, you're gonna respect them, but they're not so heavy that you have any question about performing lifting them correctly. So, and then there is another aspect of intensity is just doing some heavier lifts, very... a very carefully measured number of heavy lifts in addition, like 90% or whatever, occasionally. Then they figured out the proper volumes. Just to give you an idea, if you're looking at, uh, let's say, you know, you might be doing 30 reps of a given exercise per session, what have you, although there's variability. But then there's also something else that's very interesting, is the optimal number of repetitions with a given weight. And this is what hurt peop- hurts people's heads. If you look at it, the weights from 70% to 90%, the optimal number of repetitions are one-third to two-thirds of your maximum. So let me give you an example to the reader, uh, to the listener. Let's say that you're lifting a 10 rep max weight. So you go all out, as hard as possible. You can do 10 reps. In training, you should be doing, um... you should be doing three to six reps. That's it. That's, that's the window. And why is that? We have no idea. But the scientists, like in this case that was... I think it was Matveev was involved in that, the father of periodization. I think it was one of the scientists. They experimented with all sorts of rep ranges, and they figured out that if the reps are too low with a given weight, you don't get stronger. If the reps get too high, either the athlete gets hurt or his technique is compromised or he's just unable to perform the optimal volume. So, pretty much roughly, you're looking at doing about half of the reps you're capable of. That's it. And people can argue with this all they want, like "What's the science behind this?" There's no science. We don't know. The science is purely empirical. This particular method is purely empirical. It worked for decades. It still does. And that's one of the ways you can get strong. So in summary, we have... uh, we have... sorry, step loading, which is where you stay with the same weight for a while or the same reps, whatever, and then make a sudden jump. That's the best way f- to train for beginners usually. We have wave loading, or cycling, which is we build up, jump back, and build up again. And we have variable loading, which is almost, almost chaotic, where you just constantly surprise the body with what we're throwing at it, but we do that within very narrow parameters.

   10. JRJoe Rogan23:58

       So this method was purely developed by studying winners.

   11. PTPavel Tsatsouline24:05

       And w- winners is where they finally took that, but the studies were done at every level.

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:10

       Mm-hmm.

   13. PTPavel Tsatsouline24:10

       So for example, coaches in the field would conduct something called ped- pedagogical experiments, which is, which is a study that's not quite as, um... not quite as scientifically solid, but it's still good enough.So they first would test things out at lower level athletes, and then will finally take it to higher level athletes. So the things that I'm telling you about, they have been universally effective for athletes above the beginner level. And of course, there are some subtle changes as you progress, there are some subtleties. Like for instance, uh, notice that I said that you have to use some heavy lifts, like 90%, 95%, but it has to be very surgical about how many. So for instance, beginners do none, advanced lifters need to do just some but not many, intermediate lifters can do the most. Or heavy weightlifters can do not as many, lighter ones can do more. So there are some d- differences at different levels, but the principle's fundamentally the same.

   14. JRJoe Rogan25:10

       And do these principles apply whether people are taking drugs or not? So-

   15. PTPavel Tsatsouline25:14

       Yes, they do.

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       They are.

   17. PTPavel Tsatsouline25:15

       The difference is, in fact, the, uh, Verkhoshansky and Medvedev made a, a very strong case, a very strong case of that. They used the Soviet euphemism for that was restoratives-

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:27

       (laughs)

   19. PTPavel Tsatsouline25:27

       ... and they said that (laughs) this is universal even with restoratives or not. The difference for the s- for the drugs would be as just that the volumes will be higher, you'll be able to train more. That's pretty much the difference. But the body will still work the same way.

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:42

       Now these principles, have they caught on in the United States? I mean, they've caught on with StrongFirst-

   21. PTPavel Tsatsouline25:49

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:49

       ... and I know that you t- you implement these and-

   23. PTPavel Tsatsouline25:51

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan25:51

       ... people teach these. But is this something that's e- universally sort of accepted, or is it still something that people are qu- l- cautiously curious about?

   25. PTPavel Tsatsouline26:01

       It's definitely not universal, in part because people don't know about it, in part you have to implement this correctly. So right now, there's several, there's several areas where you would see that, is, um, well, one, obviously the Voroshayko's powerlifting programs that have been imported here, but they're used by powerlifters.

   26. JRJoe Rogan26:22

       Mm-hmm.

   27. PTPavel Tsatsouline26:22

       The other is we have the program called PlanStrong which is... and again, this is a very faithful representation of the Soviet weightlifting system, but applied to general strength exercises like, you know, squats, deadlifts, and so on. And the other thing what we also do, and this is what we do with, um, with, with the military and so on and so forth, we have some simple programs, very simple programs, that are designed, um, using this Delta-20 principle and using these optimal loads that they could just go out and use. The nice thing is, unlike progressive overload, cycling, if something happens you got a problem. Here or there is some variability. So in summary, just say no, it's not widely known. It's not.

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:09

       Now, in the United States-

   29. PTPavel Tsatsouline27:10

       Let's fix it.

   30. JRJoe Rogan27:11

       Yeah, let's fix it. (laughs)

8. 27:13 – 30:39

   Don’t force adaptation: longevity, tendon/ligament readiness, and old-time wisdom

   1. PTPavel Tsatsouline27:13

      (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan27:13

      And it, it makes sense, and one of the things that I really like what you're saying about is, uh, c- completing the adaptation with your tendons and your ligaments and all these different things that-

   3. PTPavel Tsatsouline27:24

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan27:24

      ... oftentimes are injured when you're ramping up your weightlifting and you're trying to increase the amount of weight you carry, you... so this, this principle of maintaining at a similar weight for a long time, allowing your body to complete that adaptation-

   5. PTPavel Tsatsouline27:40

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan27:40

      ... that makes a lot of sense.

   7. PTPavel Tsatsouline27:42

      Adaptations need to be stable, and it does... it's not true just for strength training. If you're looking at endurance as well, the adaptations in the mitochondria as well, they... you can get some acute adaptations, so very short term, like, oh, you know, bigger whatever, guns in six weeks or faster 400 meters in six weeks. Yes, you can do that, but these adaptations are transient, so it takes time for things to really get, get solidified. And, uh, also if you're more patient with your progression as well, you're gonna find that your gains are much more stable if you take some time off, which is important for anybody. You travel, you get sick, uh, some other thing happens, so if you've been training in a manner where you're not forcing yourself... in fact, this is one of the very important points in, uh, that Soviet coaches would make that do not force the adaptation. Da- uh, David Rigard, Rigard's probably the greatest weightlifter of all times, so he's, uh, over 60 world records in several weight classes and just unbelievable athlete. So he just made a point that do not force the strength development, do not force mass development. That's another problem. You start... it's possible to build muscle fast, but it's not gonna be necessarily very quality muscle. So yes, take your time. And, and this is interesting enough, Joe, this is what old-timers understood. I'm a fan of, uh, books by all-time strongmen, not all of them, of course, but some of them are just remarkable. Earl Lederman, he was an American strongman and educator, he wrote a book back in 1925 called The Secrets of Strength, and it's an awesome book. So you read this book, and if you follow the directions in this book from 1925, you will get far superior results than from most pop fitness and strength programs because people who had some sense, some common sense, they were able to, again, observe what's going on. They were not driven by some slogan, "Oh, one more rep," whatever.

   8. JRJoe Rogan29:55

      Yeah.

   9. PTPavel Tsatsouline29:56

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan29:56

       The one-more-rep thing is a, i- it's very embraced here in America-

   11. PTPavel Tsatsouline30:02

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan30:02

       ... you know, with the meatheads, which are my people. The, the thing about it is that you think that mental toughness is going to push you past your limits or what your perceived limits are and that that's where the real strength happens, that's where the real growth takes place.

   13. PTPavel Tsatsouline30:19

       That's a vi- that's a very valid point for, for you mentally-

   14. JRJoe Rogan30:24

       Mm-hmm.

   15. PTPavel Tsatsouline30:24

       ... not physically.

   16. JRJoe Rogan30:26

       (laughs)

   17. PTPavel Tsatsouline30:26

       Mentally but periodically, this is very important point, you have to push the b- push the body to the limit, whether in competition or some other manner-

   18. JRJoe Rogan30:34

       Mm-hmm.

   19. PTPavel Tsatsouline30:34

       ... but for a short period of time and not too often. That's very important.

9. 30:39 – 40:44

   Champions save ‘Eye of the Tiger’ for competition: Ronnie Coleman as a cautionary contrast

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:39

      You know who Ronnie Coleman is, right?

   2. PTPavel Tsatsouline30:40

      ... yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:41

      You know, Ronnie Coleman, who was, uh, Mr. Olympia, just, uh, at one point in time, one of the most impressive and spectacular physiques on Earth-

   4. PTPavel Tsatsouline30:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:48

      ... is now so injured from all of his incredible lifts. He was known for lifting enormous, enormous amounts of weight. And, uh, I mean, I think when they asked him about if he'd do anything different, 'cause I think he's had... I- I hope I'm not wrong, but I think more than 11 back surgeries over the last few years.

   6. PTPavel Tsatsouline31:10

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:10

      Y- he's essentially herniated every single disc in his back and, uh, a series of back operations that's left him w- walking with crutches, and, you know, it's- it's bad. Um, but this is the result of this sort of mindset of a champion, you know, that he was-

   8. PTPavel Tsatsouline31:29

      Joe, pardon me. I'm going to interrupt you for a second.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:32

      Please.

   10. PTPavel Tsatsouline31:32

       The champion has that mindset on the platform. The champion, whenever the champion is in the gym, he or she is going to approach this as a, as a working man, pretty much. "This is the plan, this is what I do." So, you will find that absolutely in, in sports, you have to be extremely tough, and you have to model some of that in training as well, but in a very, very careful, timed manner.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:57

       Yeah.

   12. PTPavel Tsatsouline31:57

       So f- for instance, um... top lifters, top powerlifters, they max twice a year, at the Nationals and at the Worlds. Meanwhile, they train hard, they push themselves, they do everything right, but they do not try to squeeze out one extra rep. It just simply will not work. It does not work. I remember having a conversation with Andy Bolton. Andy is, uh, the first man to deadlift 1,000 pounds, and just spectacular athlete. If you watch Andy pull in competition, it's just, just unbelievable. It's a thing of beauty. And I just... Andy was telling me how, how some lifters he have seen that would just simply try to hang with others, better lifters in the gym, and try to repeat exactly what they do. And that's what happens after that. Nothing good happens from that.

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:51

       Mm-hmm.

   14. PTPavel Tsatsouline32:51

       You have to be tough when it's time. In the gym, you have to do the plan. And, like for example, um, let's talk about heavy lifting.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:04

       Okay.

   16. PTPavel Tsatsouline33:04

       Just heavy singles, let's say. If... I'm sure everybody who listens to your program has, at what point of their life, decided to up their bench press by going to a maximum once a week. I'm sure everybody has. I have, you have, everybody has. So how long did it last? Typically six weeks for a beginner, and an advanced lifter might tolerate two or three weeks, and that's about it. So for whatever reasons, after that, you know, your nervous system starts burning out, your endocrine system can't keep up, and that's it. So, for that reason, before the competition, you might take like a 90% single or double or something like that. And if you look at the longevity of powerlifters, and if you look at longevity of the weightlifters of the Soviet school, uh, it's very impressive. I'll give you one great example. So, well, David Regehr himself, who was the champion around, you know, in the '70s. So he is way... he is probably pushing 70 right now, you know, lives in a farm, works in a farm. But his co-... doing great, very healthy. But his coach, that's, that's an even more interesting story. Uh, Rudolph Plueckfelder, he was probably the oldest to win the Olympics in weightlifting. He was 36. And he worked in the mines in daytime and then trained hard. So Plueckfelder ethnically he- so, ethnically he's German, so one of the Germans living in the Soviet Union. And eventually, when the Soviet Union fell apart, Plueckfelder immigrated to Germany. And so (laughs) a journalist came to visit him. And so here is this really spry looking guy fooling around in the garden, and the journalist is asking him, "Pardon me, sir, may I speak to your dad?" So here's this guy who is, uh, almost 90 years old, who still looks about 30 years younger, who still does jump squats with 90 kilos for sets of 10, and this is an example. So, heavy weights don't have the same longevity, but that has more... that does not have anything to do with the training system. That has to do with the fact the strain you put on your system by eating so much. Just not so good. But these guys have longevity. If you also look at, uh, the powerlifters, most successful powerlifters, American powerlifters, Eddie Cohn competed for, if I'm not mistaken, about 30 years, at the highest level, from a very lightweight class to much heavier one. And he stayed super healthy throughout. He maybe had one injury. And Eddie right now, years have... after retirement, is very, very healthy. So you will find that the mentality of saving this Eye of the Tiger for when it matters, as opposed to treating every training day as a competition, that makes a big difference for performance and for longevity.

   17. JRJoe Rogan36:07

       It just battles the mindset of always do more, always push harder, always give your all, leave everything in the gym. Th- this, this is the mindset that people have been sort of indoctrinated into.

   18. PTPavel Tsatsouline36:21

       Sure.

   19. JRJoe Rogan36:21

       That they think that hard work is what really matters, but-

   20. PTPavel Tsatsouline36:24

       Hard work does matter, but hard work can come in a lot of different... it can manifest itself differently.

   21. JRJoe Rogan36:31

       Would that approach have worked with a guy like Ronnie Coleman? Because he's a bodybuilder. So bodybuilders, obviously you're not talking about competition in the sense of being able to lift a lot of weight.

   22. PTPavel Tsatsouline36:39

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan36:39

       You're talking about just mass, acquiring mass.

   24. PTPavel Tsatsouline36:42

       Well, you know, the bodybuilders from the older era...... like Franco Columbu. Uh, very sad that, uh, Dr. Columbu passed recently, but he was an exceptionally strong man, a very healthy man.

   25. JRJoe Rogan36:58

       Yeah, he died-

   26. PTPavel Tsatsouline36:58

       He-

   27. JRJoe Rogan36:58

       ... swimming.

   28. PTPavel Tsatsouline36:59

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan36:59

       You know, it's just-

   30. PTPavel Tsatsouline36:59

       But also it was a heart issue that has nothing to do with lifting.
10. 40:44 – 47:05

    Kettlebells vs barbells vs bodyweight: tradeoffs, learning curves, and ‘ballistics’

    1. JRJoe Rogan40:44

       One of the things that I love about kettlebells is that it promotes functional strength. It promotes the entire body moving as a unit.

    2. PTPavel Tsatsouline40:52

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan40:52

       And that seems to apply very quickly to athletics. It's one of the reasons why jujitsu people have adopted kettlebell training, so almost universally.

    4. PTPavel Tsatsouline40:59

       Absolutely. Uh, there are many reasons why, but that's one of them.

    5. JRJoe Rogan41:02

       Yeah.

    6. PTPavel Tsatsouline41:02

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan41:02

       And non-glamorous moves like Turkish get-up, which is, like, one of the very best moves for jujitsu.

    8. PTPavel Tsatsouline41:08

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan41:08

       It's just phenomenal for your stability, your core, and your, your ability to get out from under the bottom-

    10. PTPavel Tsatsouline41:14

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JRJoe Rogan41:14

        ... bottom positions. And so it's just a phenomenal work, uh, phenomenal workout. But the, th- the, these principles of using the entire body and d- you know, y- with kettlebells, eh, using different parts of your bo- using your legs, your core, your ab all in one, one workout is also so ... it's so effective time-wise 'cause you can get a spectacular workout in a very short amount of time.

    12. PTPavel Tsatsouline41:44

        You're correct, Joe. Maybe this is a good time to discuss the benefits of kettlebells versus, let's say, barbells or body weight.

    13. JRJoe Rogan41:50

        Sure.

    14. PTPavel Tsatsouline41:50

        That's very good conversation. That's a question ask, people ask often.

    15. JRJoe Rogan41:54

        Right.

    16. PTPavel Tsatsouline41:54

        So I would name these as three top modalities for people. Yes, there are some other additional things, dumbbells and whatever, but that usually they're secondary. So what are the respective benefits of these different modalities? The body weight is ... obviously it's accessible. It's with you no matter where you go. But interestingly enough, the body weight requires the most coaching. So you have to ... it's very subtle. Like, for example, if you look at developing something at the gym, it's called the hollow position. It takes a lot of coaching. To perform it correct, even pull-up or push-up, it's, it's a lot of work. One-legged squats, so on and so forth. So it's great and takes ... but it just takes more time, more investment. Also, the downside of the body weight would be you can't really train your lower back effectively.

    17. JRJoe Rogan42:39

        Hmm.

    18. PTPavel Tsatsouline42:40

        And you have to train your lower back to stay young. You just have to. And whatever you do, back extensions, other stuff, neck bridges, it's not gonna do it for your back. Just won't. So body weight, great modality, but with its, these limitations. The barbell ...If you just love heavy stuff, it's awesome and it's just psychologically, it's extremely satisfying, a heavy deadlift let's say, for some people, not for all. Then if you're looking forward to m- maximize your muscle mass, nobody has come up yet with anything other than the barbell. So, you know, you start doing, you know, some repetition, deadlift, squats, so on. So that's another reason. But let's say you are playing football, right? The problem with the barbell, first of all, is the, um, learning curve. It takes some time to learn it correctly. It's not easy to master it and it takes a lot of instruction. In addition, um, the barbell's not forgiving. So let's say that one of your shoulders is jacked up, it's just not very forgiving because you can't... You just have to adjust yourself to the bar as opposed to make the implement adjust to yourself. So this is where the kettlebell comes in. First of all, the kettlebell because it moves freely, it adjusts to your body, to your physiology, to your anatomy, I should say, so it works, it worked quite well. For example, Mark Rivkin, he's, uh, one of my top instructors, he was a highly successful gymnast in the past and later on he was an, uh, coach for women's powerlifting national team, and great powerlifter too. So he cannot do bilateral exercises well because of the mileage he sustained. He took a very bad landing as a gymnast, ruined his knee, and then from there other things went bad, back, whatever. So but he can do one-arm s- he cannot do two-arm swings because it just messes him up-

    19. JRJoe Rogan44:33

        Mm-hmm.

    20. PTPavel Tsatsouline44:34

        ... but he can do one-arm swing so the body compensates a little differently and he can handle it. So it's... With the proper medical clearance, it's much easier to work around problems. Then the offset center of gravity, that's just tremendous thing for your back, I'm sorry, for your shoulder. So the, the positions you put your shoulder in, you cannot do with anything else. But, and, you know, obviously you have the get-up which is an amazing exercise, cannot do it as well with other implements. But the ballistics, that's another unique benefit of the kettlebell, swings and snatches, exercises like that. The benefits of these exercises are many. So first of all, ballistic loading obviously is part of sports and it's a part of life, and oftentimes i- it's hard to do it safely. Go ahead and start jumping. It... Like, before somebody starts jumping correctly, jumping off boxes and so on and so forth, just even, you know, hopping across the floor, it requires some coaching, it requires getting some strength, it requires addressing some dysfunction, so on and so forth. The kettlebell swing, for example, it's... So many hard men with high mileage who are really banged up in so many different ways, their backs, their knees, their hips, they're able to do swings safely, and that's just remarkable. And w- the ballistic contraction's very important, so you have to run, you have to jump, you have to do things like that, but it goes beyond that for your health, for your longevity. So as we grow older, um, a- there's a loss of type II musc- muscle fibers, so the strong ones, the fast-twitch fibers, and there are several problems with that. First of all, they're metabolically needed for the body to be healthy, to process sugar, so on, so on and so forth. Second is to deal with real-life situations, you know? Like, it's very unfortunate, some old person trips and breaks their hip, it's terrible, and oftentimes the reason is just weakness. And we need these fast fibers because whenever you trip and you have this reflexive contraction, these fibers go online first. So if you don't have them anymore, you got massive problems, right? So another reason is

11. 47:05 – 54:45

    Staying young: Type II fibers, ‘heavy or fast,’ and the Russian SuperSlow variant

    1. PTPavel Tsatsouline47:05

       in type II fibers, there is, uh... Mitochondrial degeneration takes place as we grow older, much faster than others, and if you don't take care of that, it's also... That's aging. So you've gotta train these type II fibers, and there are only two ways to train type II fibers. It's heavy or fast, so there's no third way.

    2. JRJoe Rogan47:26

       Okay.

    3. PTPavel Tsatsouline47:26

       So whenever people try to do some sort of a super slow this or Pilates that, whatever, it's not gonna do it. So you have to train heavy or you have to train fast if you wanna stay young.

    4. JRJoe Rogan47:39

       So are you, uh, completely against that, kind of, super slow training?

    5. PTPavel Tsatsouline47:44

       Not at all, but for totally different reasons. There is, um... Well, obviously one reason is possibly if somebody's injured, right?

    6. JRJoe Rogan47:51

       Mm-hmm.

    7. PTPavel Tsatsouline47:53

       Another reason is to develop your type I endurance fibers, hypertrophy for these fibers. Why would you want to do that? Well, first of all, type I fibers, the downside of these fibers is they contract slower, so obviously that's a downside for some sports, for some activities, but they're also more efficient, which means it's plus for other sports, right? So (clears throat) another positive here, they already come pre-equipped with mitochondria. So mitochondria, that's where aerobic metabolism takes place, and by building your type I fibers you automatically get more endurance in addition to muscle mass and strength too. So super slow work is good for that, but it has to be done correctly. Uh, the proper methods were developed by Russian Professor Viktor Siluyanov, and so he developed this method, I'm gonna summarize it for you right now for your, for your listeners, that's something you can easily do yourself. Well, ha, easily is not the word. Simply-So, the duration of a set is 30 to 60 seconds. You have to select the range of motion where there is no, uh, there is no stacking, there is no s- there is no support from your bones at all. So, for example, if you were to do a squat, you go down below parallel, but not to the point where you're sitting on your calves, and come up just a little above parallel, and below again. So, just at most unpleasant, the most painful area.

    8. JRJoe Rogan49:33

       Mm-hmm.

    9. PTPavel Tsatsouline49:34

       If you're doing, let's say, push-ups for, for your chest, for example, you would almost brush the deck with your chest, come up about halfway, and then come back down. And the speed is very slow, so there's no momentum at all. Now, it doesn't sound like anything new, but here's what's new. Silouanov, uh, optimized the rest periods, and, and that's a big game ch- game changer. Normally when people train in this manner, bodybuilders and others, they just want to get more s- burn possible. And by the way, the burn is awful, and in this particular case, you want to train close to failure, in this particular case. That's just a muscular training. That's not strength training per se. So, they try to run from one set to the next. So they'll do that, let's say that 30-second set, then they will just, you know, rest for 30 seconds and do it again, completely hammer themselves. The problem with that is even though we do not know the exact mechanisms of muscle growth, we do know that some lactic acid is needed, but too much lactic acid is destructive. So, what Silouanov did is he figured out is after this kind of set, you have to rest for five to 10 minutes. And that sounds, for people, it's, it's, it's very hard mental thing to do. So, here I am going for this massive burn, and I have to wait for five to 10 minutes. But it's very simple. You introduce another exercise in between. So, train twice a week, five to, five to 10 sets on the heavy day, eventually, once you build up to it, and about one to three sets on a light day. That's it.

    10. JRJoe Rogan51:20

        Now, this is incorporating SuperSlow techniques?

    11. PTPavel Tsatsouline51:22

        Oh, yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan51:23

        You-

    13. PTPavel Tsatsouline51:23

        And who would this be good for? Wrestlers.

    14. JRJoe Rogan51:25

        Mm-hmm.

    15. PTPavel Tsatsouline51:26

        For wrestlers, it's spectacular.

    16. JRJoe Rogan51:27

        Yeah.

    17. PTPavel Tsatsouline51:28

        Because even though there are explosive elements there as well, but it's also very much there's that static element, static endurance. And, uh, one of my StrongFirst, one of my StrongFirst certified instructors, Roger from the UK, he ... I had him follow this protocol, um, before he and his crew rowed across the Atlantic, and he did much better after than most people and was much happier, if you can be happier rowing across the Atlantic. So, for rowing, for wrestling, for bodybuilding, for some people who cannot do anything else. So that's a good protocol.

    18. JRJoe Rogan52:03

        So, this is, uh, essentially a muscular endurance protocol.

    19. PTPavel Tsatsouline52:06

        M- you know what? It's both.

    20. JRJoe Rogan52:08

        Okay.

    21. PTPavel Tsatsouline52:08

        Because, because the muscles getting bigger-

    22. JRJoe Rogan52:10

        Right.

    23. PTPavel Tsatsouline52:11

        ... and it will get stronger as well.

    24. JRJoe Rogan52:12

        But it won't be faster. It's not-

    25. PTPavel Tsatsouline52:14

        No.

    26. JRJoe Rogan52:14

        ... something you would-

    27. PTPavel Tsatsouline52:14

        No.

    28. JRJoe Rogan52:14

        ... incorporate with a boxer?

    29. PTPavel Tsatsouline52:16

        I would... No, absolutely not.

    30. JRJoe Rogan52:17

        Yeah.
12. 54:45 – 1:12:40

    CrossFit, cardio misconceptions, and building endurance via mitochondria (not acid baths)

    1. JRJoe Rogan54:45

       CrossFit is all about massive reps and doing the most that you possibly can, and, you know, switching from one thing quickly to another thing. How do you feel about that?

    2. PTPavel Tsatsouline54:56

       Joe, how about we take one minute, I'll get myself another tea-

    3. JRJoe Rogan54:59

       Sure.

    4. PTPavel Tsatsouline54:59

       ... and I'll address that.

    5. JRJoe Rogan55:00

       Okay.

    6. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:00

       Sound good?

    7. JRJoe Rogan55:00

       Yeah, sure.

    8. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:01

       Thanks.It's a good question, man. Very good question. Excellent question, Joe. Thank you.

    9. JRJoe Rogan55:06

       (laughs) He's gonna go get another tea. Do you know how to do it?

    10. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:09

        No. No idea.

    11. NANarrator55:10

        I'll do it, yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan55:10

        All right. Jamie will do it for you.

    13. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:13

        Go get your tea. I have, uh ... I have a cup here.

    14. JRJoe Rogan55:17

        I think he's gonna get you another cup, uh, whether you like it or not.

    15. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:19

        Yeah. This is not in the, in the shot, is it?

    16. JRJoe Rogan55:23

        Uh, it doesn't matter.

    17. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:24

        Okay.

    18. JRJoe Rogan55:25

        It can be in the shot. Um, that ... this, all this, uh, this stuff is so, uh, it's so interesting because it's so obviously ... I mean, it makes sense.

    19. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:37

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JRJoe Rogan55:37

        But it's just not the method that anyone-

    21. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:42

        Thank you.

    22. JRJoe Rogan55:43

        ... is accustomed to.

    23. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:43

        You know, you would be surprised that's not necessarily true.

    24. JRJoe Rogan55:46

        (laughs)

    25. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:47

        (laughs) If you look at, if you look at the top coaches, uh, if you look at top athletes who don't necessarily advertise what they're doing, that's not, that's not the case.

    26. JRJoe Rogan55:56

        So it's more common now?

    27. PTPavel Tsatsouline55:58

        It's getting there.

    28. JRJoe Rogan55:59

        Yeah.

    29. PTPavel Tsatsouline56:00

        Oh, sorry.

    30. JRJoe Rogan56:00

        There you go. Nice one.
13. 1:12:40 – 1:21:08

    Pavel’s minimalist training: swings + dips, general vs special training, and the ‘what the hell effect’

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:12:40

       What do you do now? Like how... first of all, how old are you?

    2. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:12:43

       20.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:12:44

       You look great.

    4. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:12:45

       Thanks.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:12:46

       (laughs)

    6. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:12:46

       (laughs) Thank you. Great haircut too.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:12:49

       Thank you.

    8. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:12:49

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:12:50

       I like it. How old are you really?

    10. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:12:53

        I'm working on being 20, Joe. Let's stick with that.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:12:55

        Working on going back?

    12. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:12:56

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:12:57

        Um, I'm 52. Are you older than me?

    14. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:00

        I'm working... uh, we're both working on going back.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:13:02

        (laughs)

    16. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:02

        How about we stick with that?

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:13:04

        Um-

    18. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:04

        I don't want to be judged based on my age.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:13:06

        I understand. Um, how often do you train these days?

    20. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:10

        How often do I train? Almost every day.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:13:13

        Almost every day?

    22. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:13

        Yeah.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:13:14

        Just doing something differently?

    24. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:16

        Yeah, doing something different.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:13:16

        Mo- mostly kettlebells or...

    26. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:18

        Mostly...For the last several years, with I suppose last several months were kind of experimental doing something else, but for the last several years, pretty much has been nothing but swings and, uh, and dips, just one of my protocols. It's a very particular anti-glycolytic protocol. Anti-glycolytic means, well, the kind of thing we just discussed.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:13:40

        I- Just swings and dips?

    28. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:41

        Yep.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:13:42

        Why, why that combination?

    30. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:13:45

        Trying to be minimalist, pretty much, and trying to cover as much base as possible. Also, trying to do things that my body likes. But the swings are ... I would argue that the swing is the most beneficial exercise anybody can do, because you will ... Again, you're training power. You're training your fast fibers. You're developing mitochondria in the fast fibers. You are training your connective tissues, and, you know, you're getting your cardio as well. It's not, you know, it's not focused on that, but you have that side effect. The dip is, uh, you know, kind of covers what's been missing. I like the idea of very minimalist, general strength protocols that just have pretty much a hip hinge, and, uh, and a press. That's, that's a preference. That's-
14. 1:21:08 – 1:27:48

    Building StrongFirst and ‘strength culture’: gym choices, foam rolling, and respecting the barbell

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:21:08

       So w- what do you spend your time doing these days? Do you spend your time teaching seminars, coaching people, like, writing books? What do you, what do you, what's the ...

    2. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:21:17

       All of the above. So, uh, I, I am staying, I'm working on, uh, I teach some special events for StrongFirst, which is my company, the School of Strength, so I teach seminars like Strong Endurance, The 2nd Win and so on. I write books, and I do some consulting. But what I really am trying to do is I'm trying to build StrongFirst, you know, the School of Strength. My vision is that more people want to become stronger, and strength will become cool. Strength will become important, and I'd like to see that, um, across decades, really. I'm not a-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:21:59

       You don't think strength's cool now?

    4. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:22:02

       Among a small portion of the population.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:22:05

       Do you think that can actually change?

    6. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:22:07

       I hope so. I don't know. I hope so.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:22:09

       Uh, why would it change?

    8. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:22:11

       Well, we're working at it.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:22:12

       (laughs)

    10. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:22:12

        Maybe you'll do something about it. Who knows? But, you know, a friend of mine said something interesting.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:22:17

        Okay.

    12. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:22:17

        My friend John, he said today you have this very small, among young people, very small fraction of the population that's just super tough guys who are just competing in MMA and so on, these, uh, daredevils doing extreme sports and so on, and you have the huge majority who are just sitting doing this or they go and do their little Pilates thing or whatever they do, their little interval session. And I just think society at large needs more just, just regular tough guys, you know, like the old farmer or somebody like that. And I think that that needs to be more broad. And people need to understand that f- that they ... I hate this word fitness. I just hate that, because it conjures up images of just all sorts of weird equipment and weird exercises and foam rollers and all that stuff, you know?

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:23:06

        (laughs)

    14. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:23:07

        So ... (laughs)

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:23:07

        You don't like foam rollers?

    16. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:23:09

        It's not that I don't like foam rollers. It, it's a tool, just like everything else.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:23:14

        Right.

    18. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:23:15

        Here's a problem. A guy comes in. He spends 45 minutes on some fancy, he calls it movement prep. What the hell is movement prep? And he's sitting around, you know, rolling his butt in the foam roller and then he does some other weird voodoo and-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:23:28

        (laughs)

    20. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:23:29

        ... uh, you know, if he's injured and if he got a prescription from his physical therapist or doctor, power to you, buddy. But if not, and then finally he's gonna spend 10 minutes doing some, doing some little nonsense, get his heart rate up, and between sets is gonna be updating his profile or whatever.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:23:46

        (laughs)

    22. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:23:46

        So the foam roller, you've got to ... It, it's got a place. I'm even gonna tell you, like, even doing any of the corrective work, something that you need to do, you should even separate it from your training. Like, don't dishonor the lifting prep- platform by throwing a foam roller on it. Just do it somewhere else, you know?

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:24:03

        Really?

    24. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:24:03

        Yeah.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:24:04

        Don't dishonor? (laughs)

    26. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:24:06

        Don't. (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:24:07

        But I thought it was just a, a natural thing to sort of work the kinks out.

    28. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:24:11

        Fine. Go work them out, just do it somewhere else.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:24:13

        (laughs)

    30. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:24:13

        Just don't do it by the platform, man. And don't ever step over a barbell. That's the most disrespectful thing you can do.
15. 1:27:48 – 1:36:48

    Nutrition skepticism: one-meal-a-day habits, steak bias, and vegetables as hormetic ‘necessary evil’

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:27:48

       Um, what about your diet?

    2. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:27:50

       I'm an enemy of nutrition. I don't know anything about it, I don't like it-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:27:52

       An enemy of nutrition?

    4. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:27:54

       I hate it, man.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:27:55

       What do you mean?

    6. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:27:55

       (laughs)

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:27:56

       (laughs)

    8. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:27:57

       It's such a confusing thing. I'm telling you-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:28:00

       Yes.

    10. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:00

        ... i- in training it's really kinda funny about training. In training, like, I do my thing, you do your thing, he does his thing, but we kinda... it's cool, right?

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:28:07

        Right.

    12. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:07

        In nutrition, it's like it's the only way.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:28:09

        Right.

    14. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:10

        And, uh, there are so many different variables that, uh, is very hard to keep track of and s- so I, I just feel sorry for people in that field.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:28:19

        (laughs)

    16. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:20

        I really do. It's, it's an awful thing.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:28:22

        You have to constantly be reading papers. You have to constantly be studying.

    18. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:27

        And it's still hopeless.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:28:28

        Yes.

    20. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:28

        It's, it's just really hopeless. It's such a... You know, the body is a complex system, but I think this particular, this particular silo is worse than others.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:28:37

        Yeah.

    22. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:37

        It's just so non-linear and it's just so difficult to figure this out.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:28:40

        Biological variability is so confusing too. With one person, the diet would be optimal; the other person, it would be terrible.

    24. PTPavel Tsatsouline1:28:46

        You know, I think what we should do is focus, whether it's in diet or in training, we should try to focus on things that are more universal. So for example, in terms of longevity, uh, Dr. Nick Lane, who's a mitochondrial researcher, he made a very interesting point. He said, "Right now for longevity, so many efforts are directed at, um, the genetic engineering manipulation, whatever, fooling around, trying to make this really, really customized." And he said, "You know what's really interesting? Why don't we try to focus on something that's been known to work not just for any individual, it works for practimuch- pretty much every species, which is mitochondrial health?" And he says that if we find a way of extending the lifespan to 130 years old, he's pretty sure it's gonna come from mitochondrial health. And, uh, the stimuli for mitochondrial health are pretty much well known. Well, there may be some more down the road, but now we do know. So for example, in terms of nutrition, that's f- that's fasting. In terms of exercise, it is both aerobic steady state exercise and that type of work for fast fibers that I told you about, anti-glycolytic training, and, um, there's cold. So those are the stimuli, the primary stimuli, for the mitochondria. So probably for nutrition, the same thing, they should look for more things that work for everybody. And then, and kind of on the margins, try to fool around with, um, customization.

Episode duration: 1:45:48