EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,030 words- 0:04 – 1:09
Cartel roadblocks: what happens and how to survive the encounter
- JRJoe Rogan
Welcome back, Ed. Good to see you again, man.
- ECEd Calderon
Thank you for having me back.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I'm, I'm happy you're back, but I'm not happy that there was motivation to bring you back based on the violence. You know, the violence that is going on between, uh, the cartels and it was the Mormons, and then, it was, we were just talking about this, uh, other person that got shot because they ran... What, would you explain that again? They were ran a cartel roadblock?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. Basically, in Tamaulipas, a lot of the cartel groups actually make, uh, they, they build their roadblocks in the, on the, s- state and, and local roads. And according to what I've heard from some of the people that I know there, uh, this family, uh, ran one of those roadblocks. They didn't know if it was cops or not, and they apparently decided to run the roadblock and they, the, the cartel guys shot them.
- JRJoe Rogan
What should someone do if they encounter a cartel roadblock?
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, slow down. Um, I mean, if, if, uh, if anything, I would probably avoid traveling through those areas. That's the number one-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... avoidance. Um, usually, you know, and I've actually gone through some of those myself.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- 1:09 – 3:23
Stolen 4x4s and “resource acquisition” as cartel warfare logistics
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. And it's, uh, it's all about... They're all, they're all, they're, they're looking out for the, for rivals moving through their territory. They're looking for government personnel maybe spying on them. And, uh, usually it en- usually they'll just shake you down for some money and they'll, uh, let you go on your way unless you have a 4x4 truck they can use for their, you know, their own purposes, which is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, they might take your truck?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. Uh, they're, uh, specifically in Tamaulipas, uh, uh, 4x4 trucks are a commodity for them. They use them for their ongoing, you know, turf war.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, right, especially someone else's. Th- they don't mind getting shot up.
- ECEd Calderon
(laughs) Yeah. I mean, uh, m- most of the trucks that you see w- that are arm- up armored or they have the rifles on top are usually stolen vehicles. Um, all of them are stolen vehicles and a lot of them are, you know, Americans crossing into Mexico. Some of them are Amer- Americans crossing into Mexico and just getting their truck stolen.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jesus Chr- is that... That's a real common thing?
- ECEd Calderon
It's- it's- it's- it's starting to be pretty common. Um, uh, I recently saw a case of an- of an apparent abduction, uh, in, uh, in- in Tamaulipas. Um, you see the video and- and- and the cartel guys come out of the car, they grab the- the- the- the owner of a- of a- of a pickup truck. They get him out of the car, they take his cell phone, leave it on the sidewalk because they're- they're aware of all the SOS technology and they take him inside a- in- inside of another car and they take the truck. And you thought... You know, you would think, you know, it's- it's because he did something or he's- he's- he's involved in something. They let him go a few blocks later and just took the truck. It was all about the truck.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. It's resources. You know, they're just, uh, acquiring resources for their- for their war basically.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nice of them to let him go.
- ECEd Calderon
Nice of them to let him go.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ECEd Calderon
You know? (laughs) It's not always the ca- it's not always the case, but it's pretty... Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think most people in America are just now waking up to the chaos that's going on down there. I think that, uh, the Mormon assassination was a real wake-up call, but I think, uh, people are paying much more attention now. I mean, we've- we talked about this. When was the last time you were on? It was like five months?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Something like that.
- ECEd Calderon
A- a lot of the stuff we talked about those five months ago, uh, kind of that's how things progressed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
We actually did mention the Mormon communities-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... down there, which was kind of eerie.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 3:23 – 7:39
Terrorist designation of cartels: negotiations, consequences, and why it matters
- ECEd Calderon
And, uh, we, the... I, I... We talked about the possible designation of, of cartels as terrorist, uh, terr- uh, uh, terror groups.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. You, you had an interesting take on that. So, uh, Trump was saying that they were gonna designate them as terrorist groups and that they were gonna have military action against them.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then there was some sort of negotiation with the President of Mexico. What do you, what do you think went down there?
- ECEd Calderon
So, I mean, this is just, you know, from what I see and from how things traditionally happen down there. Mexico is currently, uh, has a current- currently a, a leftist president down there. He's very to the left. Uh, so much to the left that he, uh, he recently gave Evo Morales, the deposed leftist, uh, president of, uh, uh, Bolivia, uh, asylum in the country. Um, and there's been a lot of, you know, pro-left political stuff going on in Mexico basically. Um, as soon as the designation threat by the US came down, there was, uh, some sort of negotiation and a lot of things happened after, after some US officials went down there and talked to the government, among them, Evo Morales is out. He's, uh, he went to Cuba apparently, and then went to, uh, Argentina, so he's not gonna stay in Mexico.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, former head of, uh, of, uh, public security under the Calderon administration, which is two administrations past, the... President Calderon is the one that started the drug war. He was, uh, arrested for cartel involvement and, uh, basically for seeing money from the cartels. That's-
- JRJoe Rogan
I saw that. Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. Um, he was going through his immigration process and he was actually asking for full citizenship, and they got him on lying through the authority, the immigration authorities. He said that he'd never received money from the cartels, and apparently he did, a lot of it, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ECEd Calderon
So all these things happened after, after they walked back the threat of, uh, of, uh, designating cartels as a terrorist organization.
- JRJoe Rogan
So there has been some action.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they must have made some negotiation where Trump had said, "Listen, we're gonna do this." And he's saying, "Hold up. Let's, let's talk."
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
S-
- ECEd Calderon
I mean, uh, a main thing is, uh, more, uh... One of the things that this, uh, current president, uh, Andrés Manuel Lopez Obrador ran on was, uh, creating a national police force, right? A, a, a national guard is, is what he calls it, which had already kind of been done before, but, you know, change the name, change the uniform, change the packaging, and it's a new thing, right? Uh, he want- he wanted the army out of the drug war because the casualties, uh, were mounting on both sides. And he said it wasn't a military o- uh, it shouldn't be a military operation.And he ran on a platform that was called (Spanish) , which means hugs, not bullets, right? So basically-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Jesus Christ.
- ECEd Calderon
... amnesty for the cartels was basically kind of the main theme of that. Um, so he got into power. The first thing he did, militarized police forces and created a National Guard. And dissolved ... And tried to dissolve the federal police. Uh, and most of that, uh, National Guard, uh, force was, uh, designated to border patrol duties on the Mexican side. So some of them went to the south of the border, um, uh, uh, the south- southern Mexican border, and some of them went to the northern Mexican border basically to stem the whole illegal, uh, immigration crisis w- with the caravans. That's what kinda happened. And it was a kind of a, a, a collaboration between the US and the Mexican government. Um, so that was one of the key points of collaboration that they had. And when this whole designation thing went up, that was kind of like a bargaining chip that the Mexican, uh, government had with the US. And the rest of the things that kinda transpired afterwards, you know, it's pretty interesting how a lot of things happened after that, uh, meeting down there, uh, in how they walked back the, uh, the terrorist designation.
- JRJoe Rogan
So the terroris- d- terrorist designation would mean that Trump would have some sort of incentive to invade Mexico.
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, well, uh, it would, it would, it, it would open up the possibility for military, direct military action against-
- JRJoe Rogan
Strikes.
- ECEd Calderon
S- strikes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
Drone strikes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Drone strikes, yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
Without permission of the, of the nation-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... that these str- uh, strikes were gonna take place. Also targeting finances, uh, or anything related to cartel activities would be targeted.
- 7:39 – 10:43
How cartels move and hide money now: crypto, real estate, and legitimate businesses
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, yeah, where do the cartels keep their cash?
- ECEd Calderon
(laughs) Well, um, i- it's, it's, it's a, it's ... Right now, it's a myriad of things. Um, uh, they diversified long ago, so it's not like they're keeping, uh, buried cash in a, in a, in a contain- container somewhere in the, in the jungle like Escobar used to do, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ECEd Calderon
They're still finding some, some, like, rotted cash from the '80s. Um, they're, they're putting their money in cryptocurrency. Uh, they're-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ECEd Calderon
Th- th- yeah, they're diversifying their, uh, their, their, uh, investments in actual companies, like legit companies, so they're cleaning their money that way. Um, real estate, hotels, uh, property on the US side, so they're also investing on the US side of the border as well. So, you know, money is ... It's, it's not, you know, it's not under the mattress or, you know, giant stacks of cash in a room somewhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
But what, what kind of banks do business with the cartels?
- ECEd Calderon
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, how do they negotiate that?
- ECEd Calderon
I'm not gonna say names-
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- ECEd Calderon
... but there's been a few cases of pretty large banks that have been involved in, in, in, uh, money laundering for the cartels recently, and people can look that up easily.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
But you would think you would have a designate cartel ... uh, you would have cartels designated as terrorists, so now there are banks involved in funding terrorism.
- JRJoe Rogan
(imitates gun firing)
- ECEd Calderon
So that would change things. That's ... You know, there's a lot of things that would happen, you know. Some, some of these consequ- you know, people talk about, "Yeah, j- designate 'em as a terrorist and send drones down there." Things that they kind of don't talk about is that if a terrorist designation does happen, uh, most people seeking asylum in the US from Mexico now have the claim of, uh, of running from terrorists in, in Mexico. So, so they can-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- ECEd Calderon
So now they can claim that as far as, uh, uh, you know, asylum-seeking people can claim that now. It's a different thing. Um, you know, the, the main argument that a lot of people say is that cartels aren't ... uh, can't be considered t- a terrorist des- a terrorist group because they don't have political aspirations. The problem with that theory is that we have a lot of political killings by cartels in Mexico where they shoot the candidate of one side of the political spectrum because it's not good for them, so they influence politics. They also pay off a lot of politicians down there. Um, and they also, uh ... Examples of the new generation cartel from Guadalajara giving out, uh, Christmas gifts or groceries to the poor, basically doing hearts and minds type tactics in the area are clear political movements, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
So, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
How does a terr- uh, why does terrorism have to be connected to politics?
- ECEd Calderon
(coughs) Well, that's, that's in classical ...
- JRJoe Rogan
That seems-
- ECEd Calderon
The classical definition of that is ... uh, uh, of a terrorist group, that's what they're basing it on. I think the cartels and, and, and, and narco-terrorism is a thing in and of itself. It's a new phenomenon. It should be ... Terrorism should be reclassified to include it, I think, you know. Most people that lived through that type of situation in that type of c- in, in that type of area in the country f- facing some of these cartel threats that have fled it will call it what it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
It's, it's terrorism.
- JRJoe Rogan
Terrorism. They're terrified.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, that's liter- ... I mean, who's more terrifying than the cartels?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, well ... (laughs)
- 10:43 – 14:16
The Mormon massacre: contested drug routes, lithium deposits, and strategic territory
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm. Um, so what's going on with the Mormons now? Is ... Are they moving out of there now? Are they gonna go back to Utah and just take one wife? Like (laughs) that's what it all started out with, right?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. Well, they're a fundamentalist group, and they, they went down there and kinda proceeded with their c- customs. Um, I'm in contact with a, with a few of the members of that family and, you know, k- ... I was in contact before, but when I went on here, they kind of like ... one of them reached out like, "Hey."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
"What's going on?" said, "Hey, what's-"
- JRJoe Rogan
"Help us out."
- ECEd Calderon
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"What do we need to do?"
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. Um, and then, you know, it was like a friendly hello from them from past interactions and then this happened. And, you know, I kind of advised a little bit, but that's, you know ... th- it's, it's a mess. Um, a lot of them, a lot of 'em are leaving the communities down there. There's a lot of them down there, a lot of communities, uh, in Sonora, Coahuila, um, and, um, you know, they're leaving. They're leaving the area. It's just too dangerous.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
(coughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it only makes sense. Uh, I mean, they just don't have the arms. They don't have the, the-
- ECEd Calderon
The, the, the-
- JRJoe Rogan
... tactics, manpower.
- ECEd Calderon
... men- uh, and, and they're also in the middle of one of the most important regions in Mexico right now, uh, for a lot of reasons. The main thing, uh, uh, there's two things that are really, really kinda happening in that region. One, the traffic, uh, the trafficking of fentanyl and heroin and all these drugs, uh-... through one of the main drug routes up into the US. And there's a few factions fighting over that, uh, region. Los Salazar, which are a small cartel faction that has allegiances to Sinaloa cartel. And the Sinaloa cartel, which has historically been in control of, uh, Ciudad Juarez. So they're both kind of vying for control of the area. Uh, a few hours before the, the, the massacre actually took place, there was a, a bunch of firefights between these two factions in the area. So one of the main theories is that these, uh, the, this group of, uh, Mormons basically were case of mistaken identity, kind of driving into some of the areas where they're being protected by some of these people. You know, it's one theory, right? Um, the other thing that people kind of need to think about is that the largest mineable, uh, mineable deposits of lithium on the planet right now are a few hours away from where that massacre took place.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ECEd Calderon
Yes. And that is, you know, not conspiracy theory, or theorizing here, but it's a pretty important thing in that region and there's a lot of interest in that space and control for that space.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they're not mining it currently?
- ECEd Calderon
There's pro- there's a bunch of projects in play right now. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, so they've identified the deposits?
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, yeah. You know, people can look up the numbers, but it's, it's the largest mineable deposit of lithium on the planet. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- ECEd Calderon
And there was some sort of deal, uh, in the past where a Canadian mining agency was going to have rights to it and the mining agency was bought by the Ch- by a Chinese company. So again, after that massacre, a lot of things happened, a lot of the negotiations happened, that probab- that deal was one of the things that got killed after that situation.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no.
- ECEd Calderon
Right. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting area.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
There's a lot of things happening there.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's got to put a tremendous amount of pressure on the cartels in some way, right?
- ECEd Calderon
Well, uh, historically, any sort of, uh, any sort of mining operation usually has industry around it, which is perfect for the cartels, you know. Um, uh, extortion, protection rackets, um, f- uh, feeding the, the, uh, drug use in the area from the workers. You know, that's-
- 14:16 – 16:28
Can Mexico ‘fix’ cartel power? Legalization, U.S. demand, and shared responsibility
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there any way that you could see in the future the cartels being extracted from the positions of power that they're in now? I mean, or is this something that people in Mexico are going to have to live with forever? And I, I guess people in the United States as well. Or is this something that can be fixed?
- ECEd Calderon
Um, you, you, you've, uh, you've, you've talked about before in some of your podcasts and I, you know, listen to them a lot. It's a great podcast.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thank you.
- ECEd Calderon
My favorite. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Great when you're on too. (laughs)
- ECEd Calderon
Thank you. Uh, but you talk about legalization and how that would help. That definitely is part of the solution. And it is, it is definitely part of the, the solution, legalizing some drugs. You know, not all drugs are made the same. Maybe not fentanyl, you know, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
But yeah, that would help out some things. Um, there's, uh, there's multiple things that could be done to, to guide us towards a place where things could stabilize down there. And a lot of it is not going to be able to be done in Mexico. It's going to have to be done up here, right? Um, basically, you know, one, you, you have to take care, the US has to take care of the drug market up here, the illegal drug market. And certain things that have happened like legalization of marijuana, marijuana in some of the, some places up here have changed the dynamics of what happens down there. Some for the better, some for the, some bad, some bad things have happened. Um, talking to, uh, my friend Jon Norris, who was on here as well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
And just comparing notes, seeing how a lot of the drug, uh, grows that are up here, the pot, illegal pot grows that are up here are exactly like the ones that I found in Baja six, seven years ago. And how some of that drug money made from those fields are, is staying in, in the US, it's not being sent back. So that means you have an active growing cartel presence in the US that is US based. So I think the, the, one of the, the problems that people have is perception is that that's a Mexican problem. It's a, it's a US/Mexico problem. You know, you have a border there, but the problem has two root causes, right? Social, economic inequality and destabilization and corrupt government down there, and a thriving illegal drug market up here. And, you know, those two have to be solved to se- I mean, to, in a, in a, in a combined way.
- 16:28 – 21:43
Culiacán and El Chapo’s son: when the cartel outmatched the state in real time
- JRJoe Rogan
How many members, uh, when you combine all the cartels-
- ECEd Calderon
(coughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... how many members are we talking about?
- ECEd Calderon
That's, I mean, it's pretty hard to put a number on how m-
- JRJoe Rogan
Just rough.
- ECEd Calderon
I, I will say this.
- JRJoe Rogan
More than a million?
- ECEd Calderon
I will say this, they defeated the Mexican army in Sinaloa.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that was bananas.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
When they captured El Chapo's son-
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and then the army gave it back.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're like, "Yeah, you can have him back."
- ECEd Calderon
Well, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
"Sorry."
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, the, that, that whole situation, uh, and it was like, I, I remember, uh, that was happening and I was getting asked questions about it and it was live, it was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... all of a sudden, all of a sudden just popped off, you know. Um, basically a, supposedly, the official story from the Mexican government is that they send a special police unit to capture him, right? Which is completely false, I think, because you don't send 35 agents to capture one of the, the heads of one of the biggest Sinaloa cartel cells, right? So it's pretty much, uh, by chance they spotted this party, people were around there, they went there, all of a sudden El Chapo's son is there.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you think they just stumbled into him?
- ECEd Calderon
There's a... I, I posted a video on my, on my feed of the capture of, uh, of this, of, of, uh, El Chapo's son and you can see it. And you can see the surprise and really how the agents are kind of uncomfortable or are fearful of what they just stumbled on. Um, imagine US agents stumble in on one of the, um, America's most wanted individuals up here. They're gonna put him on the ground, they're gonna handcuff him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
In the video, you can see that they point their rifles at him and he calmly takes out his gun and hands it to somebody inside of the, inside of the house he was in and walks out and kind of tries to negotiate with the people outside, the federal agents that are trying to arrest him.And you can see that the agents are like, "Oh, what did we stumble in on?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- ECEd Calderon
Right? So, that happened. They grabbed him, they reported back to Mexico, they captured him. They started to announce the capture and his brother, um, uh, his half-brother, Archibaldo, basically called in all of the reinforcements from all surrounding towns and regions in Sinaloa and it was flooded with a bunch of armed cartel guys. All of Sinaloa was.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wasn't there a video of the government people and the cartel people talking? Oh-
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. There's all, there, there, there's, it's on my feed.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
Um, you can, you can see it if you want. It's, uh, it's basically a, an army unit that was being sent to reinforce security in, in Culiacan being surrounded by cartel members.
- 21:43 – 27:01
Life under cartel rule: culture, legitimacy, and narco-opulence in Sinaloa
- JRJoe Rogan
Gotta imagine being a person living there. What this is, the, that's what I'm trying to picture.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what life is like for the civilians.
- ECEd Calderon
And most of these videos are all done, you know, by civilians, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
There, there's a certain nor- normalcy in some of these cases, especially in Sinaloa. It's part of, it's, it's, it's part of the, uh, culture there.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ECEd Calderon
And as far as sides go, you know, "Hey, the army's coming to save us." That's not usually what Sinalo- peep- some people in some of these communities think. You know, because the cartels are... Those are the guys in charge.
- JRJoe Rogan
So has Sinaloa always been like thi- like how long has it been-
- ECEd Calderon
Sinaloa has traditionally been, been a, a cradle for like the origins of some of the hi- the, some of the more successful cartel, uh, heads, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't that where Julio Cesar Chavez is from?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
He is, yeah. And, um, you know, uh, lot, lots of, uh, lots of, anybody that's anybody in Sinaloa has some sort of relationship to the cartels because they're a part of culture there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- ECEd Calderon
There's just no way getting around it. Had this real experience once when I went there, I did a class out there, um, and the, uh, was running around this bumpy road and then all of a sudden just flat, beautiful road. Oh, yeah, this is the cartel part of the road that they built.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- ECEd Calderon
It's like, "Okay?" Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. So it's like, sort of like the mom in Vegas in the, in like the '50s and '60s?
- ECEd Calderon
Ye- ex- exact- exactly, but it's now in their-
- JRJoe Rogan
Way more hardcore.
- ECEd Calderon
Way more hardcore. You know, some-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... some of their grave, uh, gr- they have a, uh, Jardines de los Maya is call- is, is the, uh, narco cemetery they have, and it's basically luxury condos. They look like, I mean, I went there, I thought it was a church and it turned out to be a tomb.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- ECEd Calderon
Right? So the, the opulence and the money there is just overt, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
And, and how they move around, they roll around in vehicles with guns and nobody does anything because they own the city.
- JRJoe Rogan
(exhales) Uh, what can be, and wh- what are they planning on doing? Does anybody have any plans or is it just, they're just g- accepting this?
- ECEd Calderon
Well, you know, you, you, you get a lot of rhetoric about, uh, collaboration. Yeah, that's, that's Jardines de los Maya. All of those are graves. Some of them have-
- 27:01 – 31:17
Fragmented cartels, captured institutions, and Ed’s drug-war origin story (2004 onward)
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, we discussed this on the last podcast, but let's give people a little just-
- ECEd Calderon
(coughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... a recap of this just so people can understand your position. When you first started working on ... for the- with the- the Mexican government with this, it wasn't like it is now.
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, it was ... It ... So what-
- JRJoe Rogan
Gi- give everybody just a rundown of how it went down.
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, so I- I went to- I went to work for- for, uh, state government, uh, down in Mexico, in Baja specifically. And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
And this was in?
- ECEd Calderon
This was 2004, right- right before the start of the official start of the kickoff of the drug war as- as- as-
- JRJoe Rogan
The kickoff. Oof.
- ECEd Calderon
... the kickoff. (laughs) Uh, but there was, you know ... The- the official start was when Felipe Calderon came into office and said, "You know what? Gloves off. Gonna go after the organized crime," right? "We're gonna send the military into- into the sp- onto the streets and they're gonna head up the spearhead operations against the cartels." But before that, things were happening still, you know. Uh, Sinaloa cartel was growing. Uh, there was a rift between the Sinaloa cartel and Tijuana cartel, fragmentation, he- cartel heads were being killed, and one cartel turned into three. You know, all this fragmentation. And then, you know, they bas- they basically militarized the war on drugs with Calderon. Came in, militarized the war on drugs. Immediately you start seeing that drug eff- uh, drug enforcement efforts were being put towards a single or a group of cartel groups, but not the ma- but not the major one like the Sinaloa cartel. So you start seeing how they were basically taking sides.
- JRJoe Rogan
They were breaking up the competition.
- ECEd Calderon
That's what you would gather from, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
And making it look like progress.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
And- and- and also, El Chapo has been built up into this mythical figure, like he was the head of the Sinaloa cartel, he's the main guy, and that's not true at all. He was an operator for the Sinaloa cartel, but not the main operator. You know, there's different theories and- and- and- and about who's actually ... who was actually in charge or the brains behind the whole operation. When you say Sinaloa cartel, it's not one group. It's several ... Uh, it's a federation of several criminal groups, enterprises uniting and working in conjunction to put drugs into the- into the United States. Well, one of the things they do is put drugs into the United States. They do a lot of things, but that's one of the things they do. So, you know, ce- certain people, cer- cer- there's a lot of people out there that theorize that El Mayo Zambada, which is El Chapo's compadre, who's still out there, is the actual head of the Sinaloa cartel and has been since the start. Uh, but you see how some of these people become celebrities. And as soon as somebody becomes a celebrity like El Chapo, who escaped from, you know, custody a- a few times, you know, under- you know, pretty interesting situati- I- I mean, it's pretty interesting, uh, sit- uh, situations. Uh, now the government has a celebrity they can go after, so they can point and say, "That guy," mm, "that guy's a bad guy," right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
So you saw a lot of that, a lot of theatric, uh, theatrics around him as far as him being the head of whatever, you know, group or operation was. But at the same time you started seeing, you know, the DEA and- and the- and the US government, uh, uh, condecorating and- and putting all these awards on a guy like Luna, who was the guy that got arrested recently, who was head of s- security down in Mexico. And now all of a sudden he's, no, no, he's not. You know, he was recognized by the US government as being a player for, uh, the good guys and now he's arrested. So you start seeing all these, you know, different interests, different political, uh, political kind of m- m- movements around the drug war and what that turned into.And, uh, you know, you don't know what, you don't know what to think, right? Each an- each also ... Each US administration has changed the way they do things in ... when it comes to the drug war and also benefits certain groups down there. So, you know, who knows, realistically.
- JRJoe Rogan
Fuck.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just, you know, I, I went to Chichen Itza, I think, in 2000-ish, 2002, maybe, 2003, somewhere ar- around the, that time. And there was no concern.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's a different time, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's ... But that's 16-
- ECEd Calderon
I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
17 years ago.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's so recent in terms of, like, human history.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That a region changes so radically, so quickly.
- 31:17 – 34:11
Resource politics and foreign influence: China, mining, and ‘autodefensa’ narratives
- ECEd Calderon
Well, it's, it's, it's ... There's a lot of things happening, you know. Um, there's a lot of interest ... (bottle clinks) China has a lot of interest in Mexico and, um, you go back and you see something like the- (coughs) I'm sorry. Um, you see things like the, uh, the whole, um, how some, uh, armed groups started popping up, uh, uh, in Mexico in the Michoacán area fighting back against the cartels. The, uh, the whole ... There was, like, a s- a series, uh, like a documentary on them. The, uh, the, uh, Autodefensas, they were, they were called, basically, like vigilante groups. And then, you ... Later on, you realize that they were all fighting for basically protecting or inc- ... uh, or working around security for illegal Chinese ore miner- mining in the area.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. They w- ... It's all ... It was all about, uh, Chinese ore mining, uh, uh, iron ore mining, illegal Chinese ore mine- mining in the area.
- JRJoe Rogan
So the Chinese ore miners, they just made a deal.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. And then, you know, "Uh, we can get in on it, so let's arm all these guys and we're, we're, we're protecting our communities," but they were-
- JRJoe Rogan
Holy shit.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, there was a lot of that going on. Not all of them, but a lot of ... There was a lot of shady stuff going on in the region, uh, when it comes to that. Now you see things like the stuff that's going on in Sonora, and there's a lot of lithium there. That's pretty valuable thing, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Sonora is a place that a lot of hunters go.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sonora has these big hunting ranches and it's like ... It's famous for giant mule deer.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, it's a ... Uh, I've been up, out there hunting myself and it's a, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful part, part of Mexico.
- JRJoe Rogan
But that seems like a sketchy spot to be venturing into.
- ECEd Calderon
But it's for ... It's perfect because it's, uh ... It's perfect for them because it's rural so there's nobody around.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
Uh ...
- JRJoe Rogan
But if you were, like, a guy from Texas wanting to drive your truck down there to go hunting.
- ECEd Calderon
I mean, my, my recommendation is this. If you have a 4x4, don't, don't take it down there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Take a, a fucking Yugo. (laughs)
- ECEd Calderon
(laughs) We do have the largest population of American citizens living outside of the country, in Mexico, for some reason, so ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
In all throughout Mexico?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, I mean, all throughout Mexico. There's a cert-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's fun down there. It's-
- ECEd Calderon
Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
A lot of people like Cabo. People love Mexican food.
- ECEd Calderon
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 34:11 – 40:14
Cartels as paramilitary movements: CJNG, recruitment, and the ‘genie out of the bottle’
- JRJoe Rogan
What's the ceiling on this? Like, if, if they can con- continue to grow, I mean, it's, it's really p- ... Is it possible that we're looking at a country that might be completely run and overrun by criminal organizations and drug sellers?
- ECEd Calderon
Some parts of it are already.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
So, you ... What I think is gonna happen is y- you'll see escalations. Uh, a clear sign or a clear group that is like a, like s- ... uh, a sign of things to come is the, uh, is the New Generation Cartel. The New Generation Cartel is a cartel that was ... Uh, it used to be called Los Mata Zetas. It was basically a, uh, an armed enforcing group that Sinaloa Cartel made to go after their main rivals, the Zetas, which were originally members of Special- Mexican Special Forces that said, "You know what? We're gonna be cartel guys, uh-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- ECEd Calderon
"... now, and cartel enforcers now." So they ... Whole sorted history. Um, these, uh ... It, it was a militarized group that was form- formed to go after them, right? And their whole kind of play was that, "We're gonna be against extortion, against abducting people, against affecting the community. We're gonna enforce the law in our communities, but we're also gonna move drugs through here." Right? But that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Phew.
- ECEd Calderon
You know, that's kind of their thing. So you see this, uh, group start kind of growing in the region and right now it's pretty big. It's rivaling Sinaloa Cartel as far as power and, and, and reach. Uh, but the way they do their things is militarized. It's very militaristic and kind of paramilitary and, and it ... It kind of reminds me a little bit about ... of the, like the, uh, the FARC groups in Colombia. Uh, hearts and minds, they go into the communities. They're community policing in the area. Um, they originally said, "You know, we're aware the government wants to fight drugs here in the region. We agree with their fight, but we are also gonna fight against these guys that are affecting the community as well." And they have, like, groups of peop- ... They have, uh, they have training camps, mi- militaristic training camps where they recruit people, they take 'em there and they're being trained in, in guerrilla warfare and shooting. And apparently, there's some SF guys from the US that re- ... that advise them. So that's the, that's the next thing. The ex- ... The, the, the escalation of a simple ragtag group of cartel guys enforcing the region to an actual cohesive paramilitary group now trying to vie for control, not just of the, uh, of the drug routes but also of the populace and confidence that the populace has in them. So it could turn political at some point, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
It just seems like it's, the genie's out of the bottle.
- ECEd Calderon
It i- I mean, it is, I mean, it is in a lot of ways, you know. Um, and going after it just as a, you know, drug enforcement issue is not, you know, it's, it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so much bigger than that.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. It's, uh, cultural, it's a economic, you know, some of these kids that, uh, posted up some of these, uh, cartel soldier kids at 12 years old, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Gold-plated guns.
- ECEd Calderon
Gold-plated guns, you know. Uh, they don't have an op- they don't have options in their lives.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ECEd Calderon
It's, it's that or nothing, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. It's either awesome life or-
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. Short awesome life.
- JRJoe Rogan
... extreme poverty.
- ECEd Calderon
Short awesome life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
Or extreme poverty.
- JRJoe Rogan
Short awesome life or extreme poverty, yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
So that's one, uh, component to it. Another component is systemic corruption as a society from who knows when. You know, it's always been a thing in Mexico. People that grew up down there, you get stopped at a, uh, a red light and you're like, "Uh, can I pay the fine here?" You know, people that are-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... from down there will be aware of this. "Yeah, show you the, show the paperwork, you slide that thing in there," you know. That's, you know, that's part of the culture. That's affecting a lot of things as well. You know, people don't pay attention to the small rules so the big rules don't matter, right? Um, and just being next to the largest (laughs) drug market on the planet, you know, and having money, firearms, uh, rounds going down and fentanyl that is being fabricated in Mexico now and some of the Chinese fentanyl making its way through into the US, kind of filling the voids that some of the, uh, the drug market has right now. So they're making fentanyl-laced, fake fentanyl-laced pills that are gonna, that are being put into the US and fentany- fentanyly laced heroin, right? So that's where they're going towards now, is, that's why you see this epidemic up here. And a lot of things traditionally kind of focused on, uh, pot before it was legalized in a lot of regions up here, now is heroin and fentanyl.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it's actually kind of accelerated the production of the more harmful and dangerous drugs.
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, in, in some ways, yes. I mean, they had to find another, you know... It, it was, it, it, it went pot, uh, meth, and now fentanyly laced heroin or fentanyl-laced pills.
- JRJoe Rogan
See, and the problem with the idea of, uh, legalization is that if you tried to be the person who says, "Hey folks, we need to legalize drugs here in America because we've got this problem with the cartels," politically, that's suicide.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- 40:14 – 1:07:52
Toward intervention? Terror designation, boots-on-ground predictions, and cross-border fallout
- JRJoe Rogan
God damn. What can be done? Other than the legalization, what can be done? I mean, how does... Un- unless the United States literally goes to war with the Mexican cartels, and you, you made a face-
- ECEd Calderon
I, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
... talking about that.
- ECEd Calderon
I, I mean, I, I'd say designation is one of, o- I, I think designation should... It's g- it's gonna happen.
- JRJoe Rogan
A terrorist designation.
- ECEd Calderon
It's gonna happen. I mean, again, we just saw the murder, the massacre of Mexican, they were, uh, dual citizenship, uh, nine people, kids, women. It's not uncommon for that to happen to Mexican nationals. It's pretty uncommon for that to happen to American nationals down there. And that woke up, woke up a bunch of people, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
And now we s- another recent murder of another Ame- American national, you know, a kid with his parents down there. You know, people will say, "Well, just don't go down Mexico." But, but, but, but some of these people, you know, live down there, have family down there, and have communities down there, um, and it's just ultra-violent. Uh, you know, uh, people have to wake up on this side to realize this problem is not gonna get any better. This problem is not just a Mexican problem, it's a US-Mexican problem. And, uh, you know, it'll get to a point where it's gonna be, you know, I, I think, in my lifetime, there's gonna be some sort of armed interme- intervention in Mexico at some point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? So you anticipate almost, like, a, a civil war?
- ECEd Calderon
Uh, I, I think something's gonna happen in Mexico that's gonna destabilize it so much that the US won't have another option but to put, boots on the ground probably.
- JRJoe Rogan
(exhales loudly)
- ECEd Calderon
That's, I think that's, that's where we're headed. The problem, uh, and again, another, uh, another, uh, of the problems is that the government is part of the problem. So you can go down there and negotiate with this government, but six years later, there's gonna be another government.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you gotta renegotiate with them-
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. And also, you, you-
- JRJoe Rogan
... with new palm grease.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. And then you put all your faith in the military and the military gets compromised. You put all the faith in the, in the, uh, Mexican marines and then they get compromised. And now who do you, who do you have? Right? So it's systemic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't tell that to Trump. (clears throat) (laughs) He'll use, he'll use it as an excuse. "Well, we can't count on them, we're going in." I, um, I mean, I wonder-
- ECEd Calderon
(coughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... where it all goes, 'cause it, it is obviously growing very fast. It's obviously huge and incredibly powerful.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. And, and, and, and it affects... I mean, I, I'm, I'm up here now, and I could see the effects of it up here. Uh, walking through LA, seeing all the needles on the ground. Um, uh, going to Seattle, seeing the same...... light brown fentanyl la-, fentanyl-laced heroin that I saw in shanty towns down in Baja. It's like, "Wow, so this is where it kind of ends up." Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
So you s- you se- and you see the effects of it throughout. So, you know, you, you, you, you realize quickly, as somebody from both sides that I am, you realize that there, realistically, there's no bo- there's kind of no border when it comes to this problem. You know, this pro- this, this, this problem doesn't respect a border wall.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- ECEd Calderon
Right. Uh, submarines will go around it, tunnels will go under it. Drones will fly over it. Um, and it's a, it's a, it's a problem that just keeps, you know, producing an effect.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I think the majority of the United States citizens are completely unaware of the complexity and the depth of the problem.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. I mean, it, it, it, it is ... Well, it, it's in- it's also, I think most people, uh, seeing the Iran thing right now, most people know more about that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... that's going off, going on halfway across the world-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... than what's going on just, you know, a few hours south of here.
- 1:07:52 – 1:12:53
Information warfare and platform censorship: Instagram takedowns and narrative conflicts
- ECEd Calderon
Well, uh, I have a, there's a, there's a resistance group that is based in the US that works down there and, you know, they put up videos all the time, uh, of people picking up garbage and trying to recycle garbage to be- feed themselves in some places. Instagram immediately takes all those down, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why does Instagram take those down?
- ECEd Calderon
I have a lot of that going on as well. When I post something completely news-related about something and it, it, and then get, uh, shadowbanned or things just go down, uh, depending on what I post up. Like, weird things. Um, posted up, uh, a, uh, uh, a Venezuelan people throwing rocks at this armored vehicle, and one of them, I think one of them got ru- run over, and that got taken down. It ... I didn't show the, the, the part where he got run over, but just the people protesting. It got flagged.
- JRJoe Rogan
How would that get taken down?
- ECEd Calderon
It got flagged as support for a hate group or something like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Support for a hate group-
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... by showing the news?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, or showing a picture of cartel. And again, I don't post anything graphic on my feed because I don't wanna get banned, but I'm still shadowbanned, right? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you showed that one ... By the way, uh, Ed Manifesto, that's how you find it, Ed Manifesto, that's, uh, that, uh, that's Ed's page. Um, you posted that one where you, you saw a guy getting abducted-
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... by fake cops.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, yeah, and, um, and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did that one get pulled?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It did?
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah. All of the, all of the recent Sinaloa video ones are n- are all p- were all pulled off the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- ECEd Calderon
... the Instagram account. That's why I had to re-upload them all.
- JRJoe Rogan
I just don't understand their logic.
- ECEd Calderon
(coughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, uh, look, I can understand them, um, saying, "Caution: some of these i- uh, i- images and videos are sensitive," you know, like with some bloody things and things along those lines.
- ECEd Calderon
S- ... Something changed in the algorithms a year back. Like, when I was on your ... The first time I was on your show, I got ... Uh, obviously, I s- I saw a spike. Thank you, by the way. Uh, but all of the, uh, pro-Second Amendment, uh, pages and, uh, people like ... There's a guy, Crispy, who was a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- ECEd Calderon
... veteran. You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
He also ... H- he got a lot of ... He started ... All of a sudden, all of us started seeing a lot of our stuff flagged.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, his stuff got taken down.
- 1:12:53 – 1:22:47
Borders, immigration realities, and the U.S.–Mexico economic dependence loop
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, no. (laughs)
- ECEd Calderon
(laughs) It's, it's, it's been a trip, you know? I-
- JRJoe Rogan
How does that work? Like, if you are a Mexican-born citizen and you wanna become a United States citizen-
- ECEd Calderon
Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
... obviously it's very difficult.
- ECEd Calderon
I- i- it ... So, married to an American, have an American kid.That's how I went through the process myself and, uh, you know, I got a Green Card. Um, the- the thing is that when he got elected, everybody said, "You know what? Maybe our time to get a Green Card's gonna get, be less and less, so let's all try and get one."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- ECEd Calderon
So what would take normally six months took two years.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- ECEd Calderon
So in those two years, you can't leave the country.
- JRJoe Rogan
So if you- w- w- what happens to people that are illegal over- that's what's fucked up about it, right? It's like there's people that came over here illegally 20, 30 years ago and they've done no crimes, they've been an integral part of society, they've had great lives, but they- they can't pay taxes, they can't vote. They have to live undercover.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's fucked. It's stupid.
- ECEd Calderon
... they're- they're- they're, uh, you know, and they do provide, you know, they do provide.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- ECEd Calderon
They pay taxes through other methods.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, through sales tax buying things.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But they're not paying taxes. They're not com- but if you made them citizens, you would make money.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, well.
- JRJoe Rogan
But...
- ECEd Calderon
It's not a popular view.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a stupid view.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a st- it's just, it's stupid that we have these people and that they're permanent illegals.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they will be here until they die illegally and we know h- they're here.
- ECEd Calderon
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like how about work with what you've got? Look, you've already, you're doing your best to stop the border traffic, great, fantastic. But listen, just forget about the past. These people are here. They're here and they're a part of our community. Like how you- how are you gonna deny them citizenship till the day they die and they're still here?
- ECEd Calderon
Well, legal immigration, just like I went through, is hard enough.
Episode duration: 1:55:13
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