Joe Rogan Experience #1408 - Ed Calderon

Joe Rogan 0:04 Welcome back, Ed. Good to see you again, man.

Ed Calderon 0:07 Thank you for having me back.

Joe Rogan 0:09 Well, I'm, I'm happy you're back, but I'm not happy that there was motivation to bring you back based on the violence. You know, the violence that is going on between, uh, the cartels and it was the Mormons, and then, it was, we were just talking about this, uh, other person that got shot because they ran... What, would you explain that again? They were ran a cartel roadblock?

Ed Calderon 0:28 Yeah. Basically, in Tamaulipas, a lot of the cartel groups actually make, uh, they, they build their roadblocks in the, on the, s- state and, and local roads. And according to what I've heard from some of the people that I know there, uh, this family, uh, ran one of those roadblocks. They didn't know if it was cops or not, and they apparently decided to run the roadblock and they, the, the cartel guys shot them.

Joe Rogan 0:50 What should someone do if they encounter a cartel roadblock?

Ed Calderon 0:54 Uh, slow down. Um, I mean, if, if, uh, if anything, I would probably avoid traveling through those areas. That's the number one-

Joe Rogan 1:02 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:02 ... avoidance. Um, usually, you know, and I've actually gone through some of those myself.

Joe Rogan 1:09 Really?

Ed Calderon 1:09 Yeah. And it's, uh, it's all about... They're all, they're all, they're, they're looking out for the, for rivals moving through their territory. They're looking for government personnel maybe spying on them. And, uh, usually it en- usually they'll just shake you down for some money and they'll, uh, let you go on your way unless you have a 4x4 truck they can use for their, you know, their own purposes, which is-

Joe Rogan 1:29 Oh, they might take your truck?

Ed Calderon 1:31 Yeah. Uh, they're, uh, specifically in Tamaulipas, uh, uh, 4x4 trucks are a commodity for them. They use them for their ongoing, you know, turf war.

Joe Rogan 1:39 Oh, right, especially someone else's. Th- they don't mind getting shot up.

Ed Calderon 1:43 (laughs) Yeah. I mean, uh, m- most of the trucks that you see w- that are arm- up armored or they have the rifles on top are usually stolen vehicles. Um, all of them are stolen vehicles and a lot of them are, you know, Americans crossing into Mexico. Some of them are Amer- Americans crossing into Mexico and just getting their truck stolen.

Joe Rogan 2:01 Jesus Chr- is that... That's a real common thing?

Ed Calderon 2:03 It's- it's- it's- it's starting to be pretty common. Um, uh, I recently saw a case of an- of an apparent abduction, uh, in, uh, in- in Tamaulipas. Um, you see the video and- and- and the cartel guys come out of the car, they grab the- the- the- the owner of a- of a- of a pickup truck. They get him out of the car, they take his cell phone, leave it on the sidewalk because they're- they're aware of all the SOS technology and they take him inside a- in- inside of another car and they take the truck. And you thought... You know, you would think, you know, it's- it's because he did something or he's- he's- he's involved in something. They let him go a few blocks later and just took the truck. It was all about the truck.

Joe Rogan 2:40 Wow.

Ed Calderon 2:40 Yeah. It's resources. You know, they're just, uh, acquiring resources for their- for their war basically.

Joe Rogan 2:46 Nice of them to let him go.

Ed Calderon 2:48 Nice of them to let him go.

Joe Rogan 2:49 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 2:49 You know? (laughs) It's not always the ca- it's not always the case, but it's pretty... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:53 I think most people in America are just now waking up to the chaos that's going on down there. I think that, uh, the Mormon assassination was a real wake-up call, but I think, uh, people are paying much more attention now. I mean, we've- we talked about this. When was the last time you were on? It was like five months?

Ed Calderon 3:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:11 Something like that.

Ed Calderon 3:12 A- a lot of the stuff we talked about those five months ago, uh, kind of that's how things progressed.

Joe Rogan 3:18 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 3:18 We actually did mention the Mormon communities-

Joe Rogan 3:21 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 3:21 ... down there, which was kind of eerie.

Joe Rogan 3:23 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 3:23 And, uh, we, the... I, I... We talked about the possible designation of, of cartels as terrorist, uh, terr- uh, uh, terror groups.

Joe Rogan 3:31 Yeah. You, you had an interesting take on that. So, uh, Trump was saying that they were gonna designate them as terrorist groups and that they were gonna have military action against them.

Ed Calderon 3:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:41 And then there was some sort of negotiation with the President of Mexico. What do you, what do you think went down there?

Ed Calderon 3:45 So, I mean, this is just, you know, from what I see and from how things traditionally happen down there. Mexico is currently, uh, has a current- currently a, a leftist president down there. He's very to the left. Uh, so much to the left that he, uh, he recently gave Evo Morales, the deposed leftist, uh, president of, uh, uh, Bolivia, uh, asylum in the country. Um, and there's been a lot of, you know, pro-left political stuff going on in Mexico basically. Um, as soon as the designation threat by the US came down, there was, uh, some sort of negotiation and a lot of things happened after, after some US officials went down there and talked to the government, among them, Evo Morales is out. He's, uh, he went to Cuba apparently, and then went to, uh, Argentina, so he's not gonna stay in Mexico.

Joe Rogan 4:38 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 4:38 Uh, former head of, uh, of, uh, public security under the Calderon administration, which is two administrations past, the... President Calderon is the one that started the drug war. He was, uh, arrested for cartel involvement and, uh, basically for seeing money from the cartels. That's-

Joe Rogan 4:57 I saw that. Yeah.

Ed Calderon 4:58 Yeah. Um, he was going through his immigration process and he was actually asking for full citizenship, and they got him on lying through the authority, the immigration authorities. He said that he'd never received money from the cartels, and apparently he did, a lot of it, right?

Joe Rogan 5:12 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 5:12 So all these things happened after, after they walked back the threat of, uh, of, uh, designating cartels as a terrorist organization.

Joe Rogan 5:20 So there has been some action.

Ed Calderon 5:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:23 So they must have made some negotiation where Trump had said, "Listen, we're gonna do this." And he's saying, "Hold up. Let's, let's talk."

Ed Calderon 5:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:30 S-

Ed Calderon 5:30 I mean, uh, a main thing is, uh, more, uh... One of the things that this, uh, current president, uh, Andrés Manuel Lopez Obrador ran on was, uh, creating a national police force, right? A, a, a national guard is, is what he calls it, which had already kind of been done before, but, you know, change the name, change the uniform, change the packaging, and it's a new thing, right? Uh, he want- he wanted the army out of the drug war because the casualties, uh, were mounting on both sides. And he said it wasn't a military o- uh, it shouldn't be a military operation.And he ran on a platform that was called (Spanish) , which means hugs, not bullets, right? So basically-

Joe Rogan 6:10 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Ed Calderon 6:11 ... amnesty for the cartels was basically kind of the main theme of that. Um, so he got into power. The first thing he did, militarized police forces and created a National Guard. And dissolved ... And tried to dissolve the federal police. Uh, and most of that, uh, National Guard, uh, force was, uh, designated to border patrol duties on the Mexican side. So some of them went to the south of the border, um, uh, uh, the south- southern Mexican border, and some of them went to the northern Mexican border basically to stem the whole illegal, uh, immigration crisis w- with the caravans. That's what kinda happened. And it was a kind of a, a, a collaboration between the US and the Mexican government. Um, so that was one of the key points of collaboration that they had. And when this whole designation thing went up, that was kind of like a bargaining chip that the Mexican, uh, government had with the US. And the rest of the things that kinda transpired afterwards, you know, it's pretty interesting how a lot of things happened after that, uh, meeting down there, uh, in how they walked back the, uh, the terrorist designation.

Joe Rogan 7:13 So the terroris- d- terrorist designation would mean that Trump would have some sort of incentive to invade Mexico.

Ed Calderon 7:20 Uh, well, uh, it would, it would, it, it would open up the possibility for military, direct military action against-

Joe Rogan 7:26 Strikes.

Ed Calderon 7:28 S- strikes.

Joe Rogan 7:28 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 7:28 Drone strikes.

Joe Rogan 7:28 Drone strikes, yeah.

Ed Calderon 7:29 Without permission of the, of the nation-

Joe Rogan 7:31 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 7:31 ... that these str- uh, strikes were gonna take place. Also targeting finances, uh, or anything related to cartel activities would be targeted.

Joe Rogan 7:39 Well, yeah, where do the cartels keep their cash?

Ed Calderon 7:42 (laughs) Well, um, i- it's, it's, it's a, it's ... Right now, it's a myriad of things. Um, uh, they diversified long ago, so it's not like they're keeping, uh, buried cash in a, in a, in a contain- container somewhere in the, in the jungle like Escobar used to do, right?

Joe Rogan 7:56 Right.

Ed Calderon 7:56 They're still finding some, some, like, rotted cash from the '80s. Um, they're, they're putting their money in cryptocurrency. Uh, they're-

Joe Rogan 8:05 Really?

Ed Calderon 8:05 Th- th- yeah, they're diversifying their, uh, their, their, uh, investments in actual companies, like legit companies, so they're cleaning their money that way. Um, real estate, hotels, uh, property on the US side, so they're also investing on the US side of the border as well. So, you know, money is ... It's, it's not, you know, it's not under the mattress or, you know, giant stacks of cash in a room somewhere.

Joe Rogan 8:27 But what, what kind of banks do business with the cartels?

Ed Calderon 8:30 Well-

Joe Rogan 8:30 Like, how do they negotiate that?

Ed Calderon 8:32 I'm not gonna say names-

Joe Rogan 8:33 No.

Ed Calderon 8:33 ... but there's been a few cases of pretty large banks that have been involved in, in, in, uh, money laundering for the cartels recently, and people can look that up easily.

Joe Rogan 8:40 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 8:41 But you would think you would have a designate cartel ... uh, you would have cartels designated as terrorists, so now there are banks involved in funding terrorism.

Joe Rogan 8:50 (imitates gun firing)

Ed Calderon 8:50 So that would change things. That's ... You know, there's a lot of things that would happen, you know. Some, some of these consequ- you know, people talk about, "Yeah, j- designate 'em as a terrorist and send drones down there." Things that they kind of don't talk about is that if a terrorist designation does happen, uh, most people seeking asylum in the US from Mexico now have the claim of, uh, of running from terrorists in, in Mexico. So, so they can-

Joe Rogan 9:13 Oh.

Ed Calderon 9:14 So now they can claim that as far as, uh, uh, you know, asylum-seeking people can claim that now. It's a different thing. Um, you know, the, the main argument that a lot of people say is that cartels aren't ... uh, can't be considered t- a terrorist des- a terrorist group because they don't have political aspirations. The problem with that theory is that we have a lot of political killings by cartels in Mexico where they shoot the candidate of one side of the political spectrum because it's not good for them, so they influence politics. They also pay off a lot of politicians down there. Um, and they also, uh ... Examples of the new generation cartel from Guadalajara giving out, uh, Christmas gifts or groceries to the poor, basically doing hearts and minds type tactics in the area are clear political movements, right?

Joe Rogan 10:03 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 10:04 So, you know.

Joe Rogan 10:06 How does a terr- uh, why does terrorism have to be connected to politics?

Ed Calderon 10:10 (coughs) Well, that's, that's in classical ...

Joe Rogan 10:11 That seems-

Ed Calderon 10:11 The classical definition of that is ... uh, uh, of a terrorist group, that's what they're basing it on. I think the cartels and, and, and, and narco-terrorism is a thing in and of itself. It's a new phenomenon. It should be ... Terrorism should be reclassified to include it, I think, you know. Most people that lived through that type of situation in that type of c- in, in that type of area in the country f- facing some of these cartel threats that have fled it will call it what it is.

Joe Rogan 10:35 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 10:36 It's, it's terrorism.

Joe Rogan 10:37 Terrorism. They're terrified.

Ed Calderon 10:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:38 I mean, that's liter- ... I mean, who's more terrifying than the cartels?

Ed Calderon 10:42 Yeah, well ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:43 Hmm. Um, so what's going on with the Mormons now? Is ... Are they moving out of there now? Are they gonna go back to Utah and just take one wife? Like (laughs) that's what it all started out with, right?

Ed Calderon 10:56 Yeah. Well, they're a fundamentalist group, and they, they went down there and kinda proceeded with their c- customs. Um, I'm in contact with a, with a few of the members of that family and, you know, k- ... I was in contact before, but when I went on here, they kind of like ... one of them reached out like, "Hey."

Joe Rogan 11:11 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 11:12 "What's going on?" said, "Hey, what's-"

Joe Rogan 11:13 "Help us out."

Ed Calderon 11:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:14 "What do we need to do?"

Ed Calderon 11:15 Yeah. Um, and then, you know, it was like a friendly hello from them from past interactions and then this happened. And, you know, I kind of advised a little bit, but that's, you know ... th- it's, it's a mess. Um, a lot of them, a lot of 'em are leaving the communities down there. There's a lot of them down there, a lot of communities, uh, in Sonora, Coahuila, um, and, um, you know, they're leaving. They're leaving the area. It's just too dangerous.

Joe Rogan 11:42 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 11:43 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 11:43 Yeah, it only makes sense. Uh, I mean, they just don't have the arms. They don't have the, the-

Ed Calderon 11:48 The, the, the-

Joe Rogan 11:48 ... tactics, manpower.

Ed Calderon 11:50 ... men- uh, and, and they're also in the middle of one of the most important regions in Mexico right now, uh, for a lot of reasons. The main thing, uh, uh, there's two things that are really, really kinda happening in that region. One, the traffic, uh, the trafficking of fentanyl and heroin and all these drugs, uh-... through one of the main drug routes up into the US. And there's a few factions fighting over that, uh, region. Los Salazar, which are a small cartel faction that has allegiances to Sinaloa cartel. And the Sinaloa cartel, which has historically been in control of, uh, Ciudad Juarez. So they're both kind of vying for control of the area. Uh, a few hours before the, the, the massacre actually took place, there was a, a bunch of firefights between these two factions in the area. So one of the main theories is that these, uh, the, this group of, uh, Mormons basically were case of mistaken identity, kind of driving into some of the areas where they're being protected by some of these people. You know, it's one theory, right? Um, the other thing that people kind of need to think about is that the largest mineable, uh, mineable deposits of lithium on the planet right now are a few hours away from where that massacre took place.

Joe Rogan 13:06 Really?

Ed Calderon 13:07 Yes. And that is, you know, not conspiracy theory, or theorizing here, but it's a pretty important thing in that region and there's a lot of interest in that space and control for that space.

Joe Rogan 13:16 And they're not mining it currently?

Ed Calderon 13:18 There's pro- there's a bunch of projects in play right now. Um-

Joe Rogan 13:21 Oh, so they've identified the deposits?

Ed Calderon 13:23 Uh, yeah. You know, people can look up the numbers, but it's, it's the largest mineable deposit of lithium on the planet. And-

Joe Rogan 13:30 Whoa.

Ed Calderon 13:31 And there was some sort of deal, uh, in the past where a Canadian mining agency was going to have rights to it and the mining agency was bought by the Ch- by a Chinese company. So again, after that massacre, a lot of things happened, a lot of the negotiations happened, that probab- that deal was one of the things that got killed after that situation.

Joe Rogan 13:50 Oh, no.

Ed Calderon 13:51 Right. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting area.

Joe Rogan 13:54 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 13:54 There's a lot of things happening there.

Joe Rogan 13:55 That's got to put a tremendous amount of pressure on the cartels in some way, right?

Ed Calderon 13:59 Well, uh, historically, any sort of, uh, any sort of mining operation usually has industry around it, which is perfect for the cartels, you know. Um, uh, extortion, protection rackets, um, f- uh, feeding the, the, uh, drug use in the area from the workers. You know, that's-

Joe Rogan 14:16 Is there any way that you could see in the future the cartels being extracted from the positions of power that they're in now? I mean, or is this something that people in Mexico are going to have to live with forever? And I, I guess people in the United States as well. Or is this something that can be fixed?

Ed Calderon 14:32 Um, you, you, you've, uh, you've, you've talked about before in some of your podcasts and I, you know, listen to them a lot. It's a great podcast.

Joe Rogan 14:38 Thank you.

Ed Calderon 14:39 My favorite. Um-

Joe Rogan 14:39 Great when you're on too. (laughs)

Ed Calderon 14:41 Thank you. Uh, but you talk about legalization and how that would help. That definitely is part of the solution. And it is, it is definitely part of the, the solution, legalizing some drugs. You know, not all drugs are made the same. Maybe not fentanyl, you know, but-

Joe Rogan 14:54 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 14:54 But yeah, that would help out some things. Um, there's, uh, there's multiple things that could be done to, to guide us towards a place where things could stabilize down there. And a lot of it is not going to be able to be done in Mexico. It's going to have to be done up here, right? Um, basically, you know, one, you, you have to take care, the US has to take care of the drug market up here, the illegal drug market. And certain things that have happened like legalization of marijuana, marijuana in some of the, some places up here have changed the dynamics of what happens down there. Some for the better, some for the, some bad, some bad things have happened. Um, talking to, uh, my friend Jon Norris, who was on here as well.

Joe Rogan 15:35 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 15:35 And just comparing notes, seeing how a lot of the drug, uh, grows that are up here, the pot, illegal pot grows that are up here are exactly like the ones that I found in Baja six, seven years ago. And how some of that drug money made from those fields are, is staying in, in the US, it's not being sent back. So that means you have an active growing cartel presence in the US that is US based. So I think the, the, one of the, the problems that people have is perception is that that's a Mexican problem. It's a, it's a US/Mexico problem. You know, you have a border there, but the problem has two root causes, right? Social, economic inequality and destabilization and corrupt government down there, and a thriving illegal drug market up here. And, you know, those two have to be solved to se- I mean, to, in a, in a, in a combined way.

Joe Rogan 16:28 How many members, uh, when you combine all the cartels-

Ed Calderon 16:33 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 16:33 ... how many members are we talking about?

Ed Calderon 16:35 That's, I mean, it's pretty hard to put a number on how m-

Joe Rogan 16:39 Just rough.

Ed Calderon 16:39 I, I will say this.

Joe Rogan 16:40 More than a million?

Ed Calderon 16:41 I will say this, they defeated the Mexican army in Sinaloa.

Joe Rogan 16:45 Yeah, that was bananas.

Ed Calderon 16:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:47 When they captured El Chapo's son-

Ed Calderon 16:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:50 ... and then the army gave it back.

Ed Calderon 16:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:54 They're like, "Yeah, you can have him back."

Ed Calderon 16:56 Well, and-

Joe Rogan 16:56 "Sorry."

Ed Calderon 16:57 Uh, the, that, that whole situation, uh, and it was like, I, I remember, uh, that was happening and I was getting asked questions about it and it was live, it was-

Joe Rogan 17:06 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 17:06 ... all of a sudden, all of a sudden just popped off, you know. Um, basically a, supposedly, the official story from the Mexican government is that they send a special police unit to capture him, right? Which is completely false, I think, because you don't send 35 agents to capture one of the, the heads of one of the biggest Sinaloa cartel cells, right? So it's pretty much, uh, by chance they spotted this party, people were around there, they went there, all of a sudden El Chapo's son is there.

Joe Rogan 17:40 So you think they just stumbled into him?

Ed Calderon 17:42 There's a... I, I posted a video on my, on my feed of the capture of, uh, of this, of, of, uh, El Chapo's son and you can see it. And you can see the surprise and really how the agents are kind of uncomfortable or are fearful of what they just stumbled on. Um, imagine US agents stumble in on one of the, um, America's most wanted individuals up here. They're gonna put him on the ground, they're gonna handcuff him.

Joe Rogan 18:07 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 18:07 In the video, you can see that they point their rifles at him and he calmly takes out his gun and hands it to somebody inside of the, inside of the house he was in and walks out and kind of tries to negotiate with the people outside, the federal agents that are trying to arrest him.And you can see that the agents are like, "Oh, what did we stumble in on?"

Joe Rogan 18:27 Whoa.

Ed Calderon 18:27 Right? So, that happened. They grabbed him, they reported back to Mexico, they captured him. They started to announce the capture and his brother, um, uh, his half-brother, Archibaldo, basically called in all of the reinforcements from all surrounding towns and regions in Sinaloa and it was flooded with a bunch of armed cartel guys. All of Sinaloa was.

Joe Rogan 18:52 Wasn't there a video of the government people and the cartel people talking? Oh-

Ed Calderon 18:56 Yeah. There's all, there, there, there's, it's on my feed.

Joe Rogan 18:58 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 18:58 Um, you can, you can see it if you want. It's, uh, it's basically a, an army unit that was being sent to reinforce security in, in Culiacan being surrounded by cartel members.

Joe Rogan 19:10 Yeah. Is this it right here?

Ed Calderon 19:11 Yeah. Uh, that's it. Um, obviously the guys running around with a vest and wearing skinny jeans are some of the Sinaloa cartel members.

Joe Rogan 19:19 (exhales)

Ed Calderon 19:20 Um... (coughs)

Joe Rogan 19:22 And they just talk it through.

Ed Calderon 19:24 I mean, uh, they're outnumbered, and also there's, uh, there's talk about, uh, there's a, there's a specific community out there in Sinaloa where all the f- uh, army families, uh, members live, and they were apparently being held hostage by cartel guys as a barg- bargaining chip, so-

Joe Rogan 19:40 So all these guys that we're seeing here, they're dressed in civilian clothes with the vest, those are all cartel guys.

Ed Calderon 19:45 Those are all cartel guys.

Joe Rogan 19:46 Jesus Christ.

Ed Calderon 19:47 And that, tho- that number-

Joe Rogan 19:48 And they're shaking hands with everybody.

Ed Calderon 19:49 Well, you know.

Joe Rogan 19:50 "Hey, what's up, homie?" (laughs)

Ed Calderon 19:52 I mean, uh, they, the, again, we go back into the whole what, what is, uh, the fight they have in them, right?

Joe Rogan 19:59 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 20:00 The Sinaloa cartel was basically surrounding some of their communities and hellin- holding their family members hostage, so that went out over the radio. So, the, as an army member going in to fight the cartels saying, "You know what? I'm outta this fight."

Joe Rogan 20:13 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 20:13 So they raised their hands, so-

Joe Rogan 20:15 And so then they release the hostages, everybody backs out.

Ed Calderon 20:18 Yeah. I mean, there's, they, they defeated the Mexican government basically. Um-

Joe Rogan 20:24 Jesus.

Ed Calderon 20:24 A- anything they went up against, you know. Um, they surrounded the city. Usually you'll see classic, uh, classic, uh, Mexican cartel, uh, uh, ac- activity, they close off the streets going into the city by burning, uh, semis and trailers and stuff like that. So you would see all these burning semi-trailers in the region. So if you wanna move in, you can't. And if you wanna use your helicopters, the cartels have anti-aircraft capabilities. So, uh, they broke out a bunch of people from the prison, just taking advantage of the whole chaos. Uh, you, you, you could see, there's a few other videos where there, there's, uh, armored trucks with, uh, 50 cals and mad uzis on the back of 'em just moving around the city. So there's no way, there's no way you can... This is a breakout, state prison, you know, took advantage of the whole chaos and just, you know, "Let, just let's, uh, let's break some of our friends out."

Joe Rogan 21:17 (exhales)

Ed Calderon 21:18 Right? So just pure chaos. Uh, eventually they let, the, the government decided to let 'em go. That's the, the official story. But according to the people there, there was no government saying, "Let 'em go." There was like the guys holding him said, "You know what? It's not worth it." Yeah, that's one of the, uh, the, uh, technicals as they call 'em up here.

Joe Rogan 21:38 (exhales)

Ed Calderon 21:39 Yeah, dump trucks, they armor plate the sides and, you know, put somebody out on

Joe Rogan 21:43 Gotta imagine being a person living there. What this is, the, that's what I'm trying to picture.

Ed Calderon 21:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:49 Like, what life is like for the civilians.

Ed Calderon 21:51 And most of these videos are all done, you know, by civilians, so-

Joe Rogan 21:55 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 21:55 There, there's a certain nor- normalcy in some of these cases, especially in Sinaloa. It's part of, it's, it's, it's part of the, uh, culture there.

Joe Rogan 22:02 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 22:02 And as far as sides go, you know, "Hey, the army's coming to save us." That's not usually what Sinalo- peep- some people in some of these communities think. You know, because the cartels are... Those are the guys in charge.

Joe Rogan 22:13 So has Sinaloa always been like thi- like how long has it been-

Ed Calderon 22:16 Sinaloa has traditionally been, been a, a cradle for like the origins of some of the hi- the, some of the more successful cartel, uh, heads, right?

Joe Rogan 22:24 Isn't that where Julio Cesar Chavez is from?

Ed Calderon 22:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:27 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 22:27 He is, yeah. And, um, you know, uh, lot, lots of, uh, lots of, anybody that's anybody in Sinaloa has some sort of relationship to the cartels because they're a part of culture there.

Joe Rogan 22:37 Wow.

Ed Calderon 22:37 There's just no way getting around it. Had this real experience once when I went there, I did a class out there, um, and the, uh, was running around this bumpy road and then all of a sudden just flat, beautiful road. Oh, yeah, this is the cartel part of the road that they built.

Joe Rogan 22:53 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 22:53 It's like, "Okay?" Um...

Joe Rogan 22:55 Wow. So it's like, sort of like the mom in Vegas in the, in like the '50s and '60s?

Ed Calderon 22:59 Ye- ex- exact- exactly, but it's now in their-

Joe Rogan 23:01 Way more hardcore.

Ed Calderon 23:02 Way more hardcore. You know, some-

Joe Rogan 23:04 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 23:04 ... some of their grave, uh, gr- they have a, uh, Jardines de los Maya is call- is, is the, uh, narco cemetery they have, and it's basically luxury condos. They look like, I mean, I went there, I thought it was a church and it turned out to be a tomb.

Joe Rogan 23:18 Wow.

Ed Calderon 23:19 Right? So the, the opulence and the money there is just overt, you know.

Joe Rogan 23:23 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 23:23 And, and how they move around, they roll around in vehicles with guns and nobody does anything because they own the city.

Joe Rogan 23:31 (exhales) Uh, what can be, and wh- what are they planning on doing? Does anybody have any plans or is it just, they're just g- accepting this?

Ed Calderon 23:39 Well, you know, you, you, you get a lot of rhetoric about, uh, collaboration. Yeah, that's, that's Jardines de los Maya. All of those are graves. Some of them have-

Joe Rogan 23:48 Wow.

Ed Calderon 23:48 ... CCTV video inside, air conditioning, you know, alarms, and-

Joe Rogan 23:53 Those are graves.

Ed Calderon 23:54 Those are grave sites. And the cartel guys, uh, heads go there and-

Joe Rogan 23:59 Wow.

Ed Calderon 23:59 ... on the Day of the Dead, have music, live bands, shoot their ray guns into the air. Nobody does anything.

Joe Rogan 24:04 Wow.

Ed Calderon 24:05 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 24:08 Jesus Christ. This is crazy.

Ed Calderon 24:10 Yeah. I mean, the opulence is ama- I mean, to just seeing it, you know, it's like, it's like having several Escobars in one place. You know, it's not, you know, it's, it's like a lot of ca- uh, a lot of, uh, cartels, uh, heads are from that region and a lot of their kids grew up in that and, you know, the opulence is amazing.

Joe Rogan 24:29 Fuck.Like, is this gonna grow?

Ed Calderon 24:33 I think it is. And it's gr- I mean, I don't think it is, it is growing. You know, again, uh, going back to my friend, John Norris, and his having, seeing his experiences up here, uh, finding all these illegal drug growers in- in- in- in public lands, it's growing. It's growing over here too.

Joe Rogan 24:48 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 24:49 So these-

Joe Rogan 24:49 Roots.

Ed Calderon 24:50 Yeah. So, um, the thing, the thing that a lot of people have to think about, a lot of these cartel guys had their kids up here. So they, they made their money down there and they sent their wives up here. And a lot of these kids that were born in the late '80s, early '90s are coming of age up here with that cartel pedigree. So ... And they're US citizens with a US passport.

Joe Rogan 25:11 (exhales)

Ed Calderon 25:12 So you're s- you're gonna s- you're gonna see some sort of shift and, you know, their coming of age. You'll get experience, you get, you know, a handoff of reins from the older generation to the newer generation and you're gonna see definitely, it's definitely growing.

Joe Rogan 25:26 It seems so crazy to watch because it- it seems like it's not discussed nearly enough. And it- it seems like if it- if it keeps getting stronger, like what- what we saw with El Chapo's son being released, like what i- what's to stop it from taking over Mexico entirely?

Ed Calderon 25:43 Well, I mean, you- you- you would have people arguing that it already has in- in different ways. So, uh, I think another thing that people kinda have to kind of figure out and realize is that there's factions in Mexican ... in the Mexican government. So you will see a federal government that apparently is being paid off by a very specific large cartel group. And then you'll see state governments that are of different political, uh, party influenced, uh, paying off by other cartel, uh, groups. So you'll see, you know, military units moving on a town and the state police blocking their way to get in there because they play for different teams, right?

Joe Rogan 26:20 Whoa.

Ed Calderon 26:21 Um, you know, there's, uh, there's a lot of talk right now about Felipe Calderon's tenure and how his head of secur- head of public safety was on the payroll of the Sinaloa cartel, which actually came out, uh, during El Chapo's trial. So now you're talking about basically a federal police force that was on El Chapo's side. So he had free reign to grow and do whatever he had to do in that region with the support of the federal government in a way. So that-

Joe Rogan 26:53 (exhales)

Ed Calderon 26:53 ... technically, you know, who's in control of some regions. And- and realistically, some regions of Mexico are completely in cartel control.

Joe Rogan 27:01 Now, we discussed this on the last podcast, but let's give people a little just-

Ed Calderon 27:06 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 27:06 ... a recap of this just so people can understand your position. When you first started working on ... for the- with the- the Mexican government with this, it wasn't like it is now.

Ed Calderon 27:18 Uh, it was ... It ... So what-

Joe Rogan 27:20 Gi- give everybody just a rundown of how it went down.

Ed Calderon 27:24 Uh, so I- I went to- I went to work for- for, uh, state government, uh, down in Mexico, in Baja specifically. And, um-

Joe Rogan 27:30 And this was in?

Ed Calderon 27:31 This was 2004, right- right before the start of the official start of the kickoff of the drug war as- as- as-

Joe Rogan 27:38 The kickoff. Oof.

Ed Calderon 27:39 ... the kickoff. (laughs) Uh, but there was, you know ... The- the official start was when Felipe Calderon came into office and said, "You know what? Gloves off. Gonna go after the organized crime," right? "We're gonna send the military into- into the sp- onto the streets and they're gonna head up the spearhead operations against the cartels." But before that, things were happening still, you know. Uh, Sinaloa cartel was growing. Uh, there was a rift between the Sinaloa cartel and Tijuana cartel, fragmentation, he- cartel heads were being killed, and one cartel turned into three. You know, all this fragmentation. And then, you know, they bas- they basically militarized the war on drugs with Calderon. Came in, militarized the war on drugs. Immediately you start seeing that drug eff- uh, drug enforcement efforts were being put towards a single or a group of cartel groups, but not the ma- but not the major one like the Sinaloa cartel. So you start seeing how they were basically taking sides.

Joe Rogan 28:36 They were breaking up the competition.

Ed Calderon 28:38 That's what you would gather from, you know-

Joe Rogan 28:40 And making it look like progress.

Ed Calderon 28:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:42 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 28:42 And- and- and also, El Chapo has been built up into this mythical figure, like he was the head of the Sinaloa cartel, he's the main guy, and that's not true at all. He was an operator for the Sinaloa cartel, but not the main operator. You know, there's different theories and- and- and- and about who's actually ... who was actually in charge or the brains behind the whole operation. When you say Sinaloa cartel, it's not one group. It's several ... Uh, it's a federation of several criminal groups, enterprises uniting and working in conjunction to put drugs into the- into the United States. Well, one of the things they do is put drugs into the United States. They do a lot of things, but that's one of the things they do. So, you know, ce- certain people, cer- cer- there's a lot of people out there that theorize that El Mayo Zambada, which is El Chapo's compadre, who's still out there, is the actual head of the Sinaloa cartel and has been since the start. Uh, but you see how some of these people become celebrities. And as soon as somebody becomes a celebrity like El Chapo, who escaped from, you know, custody a- a few times, you know, under- you know, pretty interesting situati- I- I mean, it's pretty interesting, uh, sit- uh, situations. Uh, now the government has a celebrity they can go after, so they can point and say, "That guy," mm, "that guy's a bad guy," right?

Joe Rogan 29:53 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 29:54 So you saw a lot of that, a lot of theatric, uh, theatrics around him as far as him being the head of whatever, you know, group or operation was. But at the same time you started seeing, you know, the DEA and- and the- and the US government, uh, uh, condecorating and- and putting all these awards on a guy like Luna, who was the guy that got arrested recently, who was head of s- security down in Mexico. And now all of a sudden he's, no, no, he's not. You know, he was recognized by the US government as being a player for, uh, the good guys and now he's arrested. So you start seeing all these, you know, different interests, different political, uh, political kind of m- m- movements around the drug war and what that turned into.And, uh, you know, you don't know what, you don't know what to think, right? Each an- each also ... Each US administration has changed the way they do things in ... when it comes to the drug war and also benefits certain groups down there. So, you know, who knows, realistically.

Joe Rogan 30:49 Fuck.

Ed Calderon 30:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:52 It's just, you know, I, I went to Chichen Itza, I think, in 2000-ish, 2002, maybe, 2003, somewhere ar- around the, that time. And there was no concern.

Ed Calderon 31:06 Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's a different time, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:08 That's ... But that's 16-

Ed Calderon 31:09 I know.

Joe Rogan 31:10 17 years ago.

Ed Calderon 31:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:11 That's so recent in terms of, like, human history.

Ed Calderon 31:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:14 That a region changes so radically, so quickly.

Ed Calderon 31:17 Well, it's, it's, it's ... There's a lot of things happening, you know. Um, there's a lot of interest ... (bottle clinks) China has a lot of interest in Mexico and, um, you go back and you see something like the- (coughs) I'm sorry. Um, you see things like the, uh, the whole, um, how some, uh, armed groups started popping up, uh, uh, in Mexico in the Michoacán area fighting back against the cartels. The, uh, the whole ... There was, like, a s- a series, uh, like a documentary on them. The, uh, the, uh, Autodefensas, they were, they were called, basically, like vigilante groups. And then, you ... Later on, you realize that they were all fighting for basically protecting or inc- ... uh, or working around security for illegal Chinese ore miner- mining in the area.

Joe Rogan 32:04 Whoa.

Ed Calderon 32:05 Yeah. They w- ... It's all ... It was all about, uh, Chinese ore mining, uh, uh, iron ore mining, illegal Chinese ore mine- mining in the area.

Joe Rogan 32:12 So the Chinese ore miners, they just made a deal.

Ed Calderon 32:15 Yeah. And then, you know, "Uh, we can get in on it, so let's arm all these guys and we're, we're, we're protecting our communities," but they were-

Joe Rogan 32:22 Holy shit.

Ed Calderon 32:22 Yeah, there was a lot of that going on. Not all of them, but a lot of ... There was a lot of shady stuff going on in the region, uh, when it comes to that. Now you see things like the stuff that's going on in Sonora, and there's a lot of lithium there. That's pretty valuable thing, you know.

Joe Rogan 32:37 Yeah. Sonora is a place that a lot of hunters go.

Ed Calderon 32:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:41 Sonora has these big hunting ranches and it's like ... It's famous for giant mule deer.

Ed Calderon 32:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:46 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 32:47 Yeah, it's a ... Uh, I've been up, out there hunting myself and it's a, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful part, part of Mexico.

Joe Rogan 32:52 But that seems like a sketchy spot to be venturing into.

Ed Calderon 32:57 But it's for ... It's perfect because it's, uh ... It's perfect for them because it's rural so there's nobody around.

Joe Rogan 33:02 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 33:02 Uh ...

Joe Rogan 33:03 But if you were, like, a guy from Texas wanting to drive your truck down there to go hunting.

Ed Calderon 33:07 I mean, my, my recommendation is this. If you have a 4x4, don't, don't take it down there.

Joe Rogan 33:11 Take a, a fucking Yugo. (laughs)

Ed Calderon 33:13 (laughs) We do have the largest population of American citizens living outside of the country, in Mexico, for some reason, so ...

Joe Rogan 33:18 Really?

Ed Calderon 33:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:20 In all throughout Mexico?

Ed Calderon 33:21 Yeah, I mean, all throughout Mexico. There's a cert-

Joe Rogan 33:23 Well, it's fun down there. It's-

Ed Calderon 33:24 Well-

Joe Rogan 33:24 A lot of people like Cabo. People love Mexican food.

Ed Calderon 33:27 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:28 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 33:28 Uh, yeah. You know, there's, there's, there is ... There is a certain chaotic freedom in Mexico, which I'll, you know ... I've cu- ... Being some- ... a child of Mexico and then moving up here and seeing you guys talk about freedom. Uh, not, not that free.

Joe Rogan 33:42 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 33:43 You know. But, but there's, there's cert- ... I, I, I get the, I get the draw, you know, and some of these communities down there are pretty safe, uh, but some aren't, you know. Uh-

Joe Rogan 33:51 Uh, they're safe until they're not safe.

Ed Calderon 33:53 Safe until they, uh, until they ... all of a sudden, you're in the middle of a ... some place that is gonna be disputed, which is I think is something along the lines of what happened to some of these Mormon communities down there.

Joe Rogan 34:03 Mm.

Ed Calderon 34:04 You know, you're on ... You're, you're in the middle ... Your community and your movements are in the middle of our route, could you please get out of the way.

Joe Rogan 34:11 What's the ceiling on this? Like, if, if they can con- continue to grow, I mean, it's, it's really p- ... Is it possible that we're looking at a country that might be completely run and overrun by criminal organizations and drug sellers?

Ed Calderon 34:29 Some parts of it are already.

Joe Rogan 34:31 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 34:31 So, you ... What I think is gonna happen is y- you'll see escalations. Uh, a clear sign or a clear group that is like a, like s- ... uh, a sign of things to come is the, uh, is the New Generation Cartel. The New Generation Cartel is a cartel that was ... Uh, it used to be called Los Mata Zetas. It was basically a, uh, an armed enforcing group that Sinaloa Cartel made to go after their main rivals, the Zetas, which were originally members of Special- Mexican Special Forces that said, "You know what? We're gonna be cartel guys, uh-"

Joe Rogan 35:01 Whoa.

Ed Calderon 35:02 "... now, and cartel enforcers now." So they ... Whole sorted history. Um, these, uh ... It, it was a militarized group that was form- formed to go after them, right? And their whole kind of play was that, "We're gonna be against extortion, against abducting people, against affecting the community. We're gonna enforce the law in our communities, but we're also gonna move drugs through here." Right? But that's-

Joe Rogan 35:26 Phew.

Ed Calderon 35:26 You know, that's kind of their thing. So you see this, uh, group start kind of growing in the region and right now it's pretty big. It's rivaling Sinaloa Cartel as far as power and, and, and reach. Uh, but the way they do their things is militarized. It's very militaristic and kind of paramilitary and, and it ... It kind of reminds me a little bit about ... of the, like the, uh, the FARC groups in Colombia. Uh, hearts and minds, they go into the communities. They're community policing in the area. Um, they originally said, "You know, we're aware the government wants to fight drugs here in the region. We agree with their fight, but we are also gonna fight against these guys that are affecting the community as well." And they have, like, groups of peop- ... They have, uh, they have training camps, mi- militaristic training camps where they recruit people, they take 'em there and they're being trained in, in guerrilla warfare and shooting. And apparently, there's some SF guys from the US that re- ... that advise them. So that's the, that's the next thing. The ex- ... The, the, the escalation of a simple ragtag group of cartel guys enforcing the region to an actual cohesive paramilitary group now trying to vie for control, not just of the, uh, of the drug routes but also of the populace and confidence that the populace has in them. So it could turn political at some point, right?

Joe Rogan 36:47 It just seems like it's, the genie's out of the bottle.

Ed Calderon 36:51 It i- I mean, it is, I mean, it is in a lot of ways, you know. Um, and going after it just as a, you know, drug enforcement issue is not, you know, it's, it's-

Joe Rogan 37:00 It's so much bigger than that.

Ed Calderon 37:01 Yeah. It's, uh, cultural, it's a economic, you know, some of these kids that, uh, posted up some of these, uh, cartel soldier kids at 12 years old, uh-

Joe Rogan 37:11 Gold-plated guns.

Ed Calderon 37:12 Gold-plated guns, you know. Uh, they don't have an op- they don't have options in their lives.

Joe Rogan 37:15 Right.

Ed Calderon 37:16 It's, it's that or nothing, so-

Joe Rogan 37:18 Right. It's either awesome life or-

Ed Calderon 37:21 Yeah. Short awesome life.

Joe Rogan 37:21 ... extreme poverty.

Ed Calderon 37:22 Short awesome life.

Joe Rogan 37:23 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 37:23 Or extreme poverty.

Joe Rogan 37:23 Short awesome life or extreme poverty, yeah.

Ed Calderon 37:25 So that's one, uh, component to it. Another component is systemic corruption as a society from who knows when. You know, it's always been a thing in Mexico. People that grew up down there, you get stopped at a, uh, a red light and you're like, "Uh, can I pay the fine here?" You know, people that are-

Joe Rogan 37:41 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 37:41 ... from down there will be aware of this. "Yeah, show you the, show the paperwork, you slide that thing in there," you know. That's, you know, that's part of the culture. That's affecting a lot of things as well. You know, people don't pay attention to the small rules so the big rules don't matter, right? Um, and just being next to the largest (laughs) drug market on the planet, you know, and having money, firearms, uh, rounds going down and fentanyl that is being fabricated in Mexico now and some of the Chinese fentanyl making its way through into the US, kind of filling the voids that some of the, uh, the drug market has right now. So they're making fentanyl-laced, fake fentanyl-laced pills that are gonna, that are being put into the US and fentany- fentanyly laced heroin, right? So that's where they're going towards now, is, that's why you see this epidemic up here. And a lot of things traditionally kind of focused on, uh, pot before it was legalized in a lot of regions up here, now is heroin and fentanyl.

Joe Rogan 38:38 So it's actually kind of accelerated the production of the more harmful and dangerous drugs.

Ed Calderon 38:44 Uh, in, in some ways, yes. I mean, they had to find another, you know... It, it was, it, it, it went pot, uh, meth, and now fentanyly laced heroin or fentanyl-laced pills.

Joe Rogan 38:57 See, and the problem with the idea of, uh, legalization is that if you tried to be the person who says, "Hey folks, we need to legalize drugs here in America because we've got this problem with the cartels," politically, that's suicide.

Ed Calderon 39:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:11 No, no one, I mean, even though it, it's probably right-

Ed Calderon 39:14 It is, uh, I think it is, I think it is very right.

Joe Rogan 39:17 ... it's one of those things that's so counterintuitive that most people are, are gonna go, "You're crazy. You're gonna make my kids hooked on drugs?"

Ed Calderon 39:23 Well, uh, well, I'll say this, I, I was, I, I fought in the drug war. We're literally a drug war veteran.

Joe Rogan 39:28 Yes.

Ed Calderon 39:28 And if I had a white flag, I would hand it over to you, you know. It's like I, that, it's, it's a useless fight. I, I got to destroy pot fields. Realistically thinking about all the effort and all the blood, I'm like, "It's just pot."

Joe Rogan 39:40 Yeah. And it's so quick to grow back.

Ed Calderon 39:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:43 I mean, that, yeah.

Ed Calderon 39:45 It, it, it is, it, it is a fruitless fight. Fentanyl, uh, heroin, maybe different drugs, uh-

Joe Rogan 39:52 Yeah, fentanyl in particular is.

Ed Calderon 39:54 Uh, but a lot of that fentanyl is coming from China.

Joe Rogan 39:57 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 39:57 It's not a Mexican thing.

Joe Rogan 39:58 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Ed Calderon 39:59 And a lot of people that are making, uh, or pro- or producing fentanyl in places like Mexico are from China setting up laboratories in Mexico. So, so it's, uh, it's a Chinese, Mexican, US problem as well.

Joe Rogan 40:14 God damn. What can be done? Other than the legalization, what can be done? I mean, how does... Un- unless the United States literally goes to war with the Mexican cartels, and you, you made a face-

Ed Calderon 40:26 I, I-

Joe Rogan 40:26 ... talking about that.

Ed Calderon 40:27 I, I mean, I, I'd say designation is one of, o- I, I think designation should... It's g- it's gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 40:32 A terrorist designation.

Ed Calderon 40:34 It's gonna happen. I mean, again, we just saw the murder, the massacre of Mexican, they were, uh, dual citizenship, uh, nine people, kids, women. It's not uncommon for that to happen to Mexican nationals. It's pretty uncommon for that to happen to American nationals down there. And that woke up, woke up a bunch of people, you know.

Joe Rogan 40:54 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 40:55 And now we s- another recent murder of another Ame- American national, you know, a kid with his parents down there. You know, people will say, "Well, just don't go down Mexico." But, but, but, but some of these people, you know, live down there, have family down there, and have communities down there, um, and it's just ultra-violent. Uh, you know, uh, people have to wake up on this side to realize this problem is not gonna get any better. This problem is not just a Mexican problem, it's a US-Mexican problem. And, uh, you know, it'll get to a point where it's gonna be, you know, I, I think, in my lifetime, there's gonna be some sort of armed interme- intervention in Mexico at some point.

Joe Rogan 41:33 Really? So you anticipate almost, like, a, a civil war?

Ed Calderon 41:39 Uh, I, I think something's gonna happen in Mexico that's gonna destabilize it so much that the US won't have another option but to put, boots on the ground probably.

Joe Rogan 41:46 (exhales loudly)

Ed Calderon 41:49 That's, I think that's, that's where we're headed. The problem, uh, and again, another, uh, another, uh, of the problems is that the government is part of the problem. So you can go down there and negotiate with this government, but six years later, there's gonna be another government.

Joe Rogan 42:01 And you gotta renegotiate with them-

Ed Calderon 42:03 Yeah. And also, you, you-

Joe Rogan 42:04 ... with new palm grease.

Ed Calderon 42:05 Yeah. And then you put all your faith in the military and the military gets compromised. You put all the faith in the, in the, uh, Mexican marines and then they get compromised. And now who do you, who do you have? Right? So it's systemic.

Joe Rogan 42:21 Don't tell that to Trump. (clears throat) (laughs) He'll use, he'll use it as an excuse. "Well, we can't count on them, we're going in." I, um, I mean, I wonder-

Ed Calderon 42:31 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 42:31 ... where it all goes, 'cause it, it is obviously growing very fast. It's obviously huge and incredibly powerful.

Ed Calderon 42:39 Yeah. And, and, and, and it affects... I mean, I, I'm, I'm up here now, and I could see the effects of it up here. Uh, walking through LA, seeing all the needles on the ground. Um, uh, going to Seattle, seeing the same...... light brown fentanyl la-, fentanyl-laced heroin that I saw in shanty towns down in Baja. It's like, "Wow, so this is where it kind of ends up." Right?

Joe Rogan 43:01 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 43:02 So you s- you se- and you see the effects of it throughout. So, you know, you, you, you, you realize quickly, as somebody from both sides that I am, you realize that there, realistically, there's no bo- there's kind of no border when it comes to this problem. You know, this pro- this, this, this problem doesn't respect a border wall.

Joe Rogan 43:19 Right.

Ed Calderon 43:20 Right. Uh, submarines will go around it, tunnels will go under it. Drones will fly over it. Um, and it's a, it's a, it's a problem that just keeps, you know, producing an effect.

Joe Rogan 43:31 And I think the majority of the United States citizens are completely unaware of the complexity and the depth of the problem.

Ed Calderon 43:39 Yeah. I mean, it, it, it, it is ... Well, it, it's in- it's also, I think most people, uh, seeing the Iran thing right now, most people know more about that-

Joe Rogan 43:48 Oh, yeah.

Ed Calderon 43:48 ... that's going off, going on halfway across the world-

Joe Rogan 43:51 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 43:52 ... than what's going on just, you know, a few hours south of here.

Joe Rogan 43:54 That's what's crazy to me. It's like, you know, we're, we're into invading countries that are really barely affecting us, that are like, a 17-hour plane flight.

Ed Calderon 44:02 Yeah. I, I think, uh, I think the, uh, I don't know, again, I don't, I don't wanna be Ed Adamus and, you know, predict stuff.

Joe Rogan 44:10 (laughs) Ed Adamus. (laughs)

Ed Calderon 44:11 (laughs) But, uh, the, the fact that we have a lot of lithium in Sonora is going to be a factor for things that-

Joe Rogan 44:20 A reason to clean it up.

Ed Calderon 44:22 Uh, it should be, you know?

Joe Rogan 44:23 Should be.

Ed Calderon 44:24 It's pretty important. It's a pretty important resource.

Joe Rogan 44:26 Yeah. But if they can't hold onto El Chapo's son, how the f-

Ed Calderon 44:30 Yeah. That's, that's why I think, uh, US gonna-, is gonna have to, you know, put foots on the, p- boots on the ground down there.

Joe Rogan 44:35 Wow. Now, if you had to make a bet, like if there was a betting line in Vegas, like how many, how many days or how many years from now will there be American soldiers deployed to Mexico?

Ed Calderon 44:46 I don't know. I, I'd say five years, maybe.

Joe Rogan 44:48 Whoa.

Ed Calderon 44:49 Within five years.

Joe Rogan 44:50 Really?

Ed Calderon 44:50 I mean, cur- ... We, we are on ... We just passed this, this past year has been the most violent year in Mexico in recorded history.

Joe Rogan 44:59 Really?

Ed Calderon 45:00 And it's the first year of the administration of this new president, right, who has been trying to-

Joe Rogan 45:05 Hugs.

Ed Calderon 45:07 Hugs, uh, hugs and not, not bullets. (Spanish) . You know, this instead of that. Uh, his- it's been his first year. And, you know, "Hey, give him a chance. He's, he's, he's, he's doing whatever he needs to do."

Joe Rogan 45:18 It's only the most violent year in history.

Ed Calderon 45:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Cut the guy a break.

Ed Calderon 45:21 Exactly. That's what they say. But then I go down there and I have a lot of, a lot of my friends that are still down there, people that have trained, uh, still down there, and I hear from them directly. Like, I have some, uh, young kids that are in the j- gendarmeria, which is like a federal police force that, uh, patrols all of Mexico. And some of the federal, federal police guys, they tell me like, "Ed, we're ... " Th- they, they said, "Or you sign the new contract to be guardia nacional and lower your pay, and all of your, all of the stuff that, all of your benefits will be gone, or you just stay on here in limbo and just stay at the base." And a lot of them are staying at the base, so it's nothing's, nothing's, nothing's, nothing's being done, basically.

Joe Rogan 46:03 Well, and I imagine that if it seems overwhelming and it seems helpless and it seems like the cartels are just taking over and they're making a shitload of money, and you're not making any money, I mean, that, that is the real crazy thing about it, right? They're ... If the, the government is asking people in this sort of already compromised situation and environment, asking them to work for a small amount of money to go after people that are making a tremendous amount of money-

Ed Calderon 46:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:32 ... and you're gonna be at war with these people, and these people, they're basically your neighbors.

Ed Calderon 46:37 Yeah. And also, you go there with a federal uniform, as part of the federal government, you go into a community where you- the federal government doesn't do anything for them.

Joe Rogan 46:47 Right.

Ed Calderon 46:47 The church is made by the cartels.

Joe Rogan 46:48 Cartel made the road.

Ed Calderon 46:50 Christmas was brought, brought to you by the cartels, you know. Um, th- they, they are the good guys, so these guys come in here like, "Who are these guys? Like, what are they doing here?"

Joe Rogan 46:59 (exhales)

Ed Calderon 46:59 "We're not gonna ..." So that's, you know-

Joe Rogan 47:01 God.

Ed Calderon 47:01 ... it's, it's, it's, it's, it is, it's a, it's a mess. It's a mess.

Joe Rogan 47:05 Wow. But w- could boots on the ground actually fix anything?

Ed Calderon 47:10 (sighs) I mean, uh, I'm not a, and I'm, I'm not a, I'm not a military expert, uh, but, uh, there has to be some sort of outside force that is completely uncompromised by cartel, uh, money and influence, and-

Joe Rogan 47:25 How long before they compromise those people?

Ed Calderon 47:27 Well, uh, when you put the Marines on the border, uh, a few of them got picked up on smuggling people, uh, from the border, so, you know?

Joe Rogan 47:36 Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Ed Calderon 47:37 You know, who knows? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:38 (laughs) Just ...

Ed Calderon 47:39 Uh, it's- it's, uh, and- it's also a- it's a different war field, because a lot of, you know, a lot of our war fighters and law enforcement are- have some sort of blood ties to Mexico.

Joe Rogan 47:48 Mm. Of course.

Ed Calderon 47:50 And-

Joe Rogan 47:50 Well, not only that, I was just watching some, uh, video where there was this guy who, uh, is a US veteran, been deployed overseas, fought for this country, and his mom was getting deported. And he said he felt betrayed. Like, here, here he is in America. His, his mother brought him over here, had him over here, he's a US citizen, and they're deporting his mom. As if his mom was a, a danger or a problem.

Ed Calderon 48:13 There, there is a community of, of Army, Marine, and several veterans that are deported veterans that live in, in a place like Tijuana.

Joe Rogan 48:20 That's fucking crazy.

Ed Calderon 48:22 Uh, you know-

Joe Rogan 48:22 That is fucking crazy.

Ed Calderon 48:23 DUI.

Joe Rogan 48:23 You fight for the country, man. You-

Ed Calderon 48:25 You get a DUI and you're

Joe Rogan 48:26 But how nuts is that?

Ed Calderon 48:27 It is pretty nuts.

Joe Rogan 48:28 It's fucking ridiculous.

Ed Calderon 48:29 Uh-

Joe Rogan 48:29 You fight for this country. You, you literally risk your life, and there's assholes out there that haven't done a goddamn thing, been mooching off the system forever, and they're citizens, and you're not?

Ed Calderon 48:40 Yeah. I, I, I mean, my perspective and my life, m- life path, you know, when I came up here, I wanna, I wanna earn it, right? I don't know, I, I came up here motivated, wanted to do a difference, work, uh, and apparently, you know, I, I've had, uh, I have, I've had some, you know, static in my, in my endeavors. Uh, my kid was born in the US.And, uh, parented... Her, her mom's American, right? When I went to, uh, to the hospital to pay for, uh, the, the, uh, the insurance, part of it, they laughed at me and said, "You shouldn't pay any of this. You're Mexican. You just can claim benefits." Right? That, that was in California. So, that was like, "Oh, but I, I can afford it." "No, you should just... There's ways around this," you know. And that's when I knew, you know, there's America and there's California America, right?

Joe Rogan 49:32 California America is different?

Ed Calderon 49:34 Yeah, California America is very different.

Joe Rogan 49:36 It's a subtle blend?

Ed Calderon 49:37 Oh, I mean, there's, there's ways around stuff, you know. There's free stuff, you know. Get it, get it.

Joe Rogan 49:41 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 49:41 Get at it, you know. You know. It's, it's a weird... Again, I travel across the country just to get to experience different parts of, uh, of the US. You know, I spent New Year's in Kentucky, and that's pretty interesting.

Joe Rogan 49:53 Yeehaw?

Ed Calderon 49:54 Oh, it's... I mean, I like it, you know. Maybe... It's like a, it's like a white Mexico.

Joe Rogan 49:59 Is it?

Ed Calderon 49:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:00 How so?

Ed Calderon 50:01 People shooting guns into the air on New Year's Eve.

Joe Rogan 50:04 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 50:04 That's pretty Mexican, you know.

Joe Rogan 50:06 They do that in Texas too.

Ed Calderon 50:08 Oh, well, you know, again, you know. I don't know. It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 50:11 It's not good. Some lady got shot.

Ed Calderon 50:13 Oh, it's completely irresponsible.

Joe Rogan 50:14 She was standing in her driveway, a grandma-

Ed Calderon 50:16 Completely irresponsible.

Joe Rogan 50:16 ... with her family, and the bullet fell out of the sky and hit her in the chest.

Ed Calderon 50:19 Yeah, when you would come, we would park underneath the bridges in, in Baja to not get, you know... There's... Firearms are legal in Mexico, and then, you know...

Joe Rogan 50:31 Tat tat tat tat tat tat tat tat.

Ed Calderon 50:32 Brrr. You see tracing rou- tracer rounds just going off in the sky-

Joe Rogan 50:35 Oh my God, like tracer rounds.

Ed Calderon 50:37 Okay, you know. It's, it's, again, Mexico is a weird place, you know. That's why I call it the upside down, you know. Um, you know, there's, there's a chaotic freedom to Mexico, which I get. I mean, I love my... I love Mexico as a country, as a culture. I don't like the government though (laughs) . The government is just, you know, at all levels, it's just, you know... It's not a good, it's not a good place.

Joe Rogan 50:59 Well, it seems like it's always been that way. I'm reading this book about Kit Carson and the old West and when the United States, you know, conquered parts of California and, and took over parts of California and, and the West from Mexico, and it was crazy back then.

Ed Calderon 51:16 Yeah, yeah. And they were talking about the chaos in the Mexican government and the Mexican military back then in the 1800s. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so people kind of figure, realize if, if, if you want to be an officer in the Mexican army, uh, you have to go through war college, and there's different ways to go about it, but there's a lot of hereditary stuff going on.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Hereditary? (laughs)

Ed Calderon 51:42 Like, "Hey, my dad was a general." "Okay," you know. There's a lot of that going on. Also, the army down there has a monopoly over selling guns. There's only one gun store in all of Mexico, and it's run by the army.

Joe Rogan 51:54 What?

Ed Calderon 51:55 Yep, one gun store in all, in all of Mexico, and it's run by the army, and you have to fly to Mexico City to, to get a license and to procure a firearm legally.

Joe Rogan 52:03 So if you live in the Yucatan...

Ed Calderon 52:06 You have to fly to Mexico.

Joe Rogan 52:06 ... you gotta fly to Mexico City to get a gun.

Ed Calderon 52:09 Which makes, which basically makes the only options buying a gun on the black market or flying over there and expending all this money. So now it's a class. So only people that can afford the plane ticket and to do this whole process are the ones that can have guns. So it's a... That's class, you know, class is involved in there as well.

Joe Rogan 52:30 What kind of rights do you have with guns versus the United States Second Amendment? Is it similar?

Ed Calderon 52:35 So the constitution, the Mexican constitution allows for guns for self-defense, but a lot of amendments and a lot of corrupt governments down there say, "Maybe not a good idea to have this here." So progressively throughout Mexican, recent Mexican history, it's become more and more strict, right? Certain rounds aren't allowed, uh, certain calibers aren't allowed. And just plainly, the sale of firearms in all of Mexico is just relegated to a single gun store in Mexico City.

Joe Rogan 53:03 Phew.

Ed Calderon 53:04 So you can't carry them without a permit, and to get a permit, you have to know somebody that knows the presidente or a general or something.

Joe Rogan 53:12 But what about all those gentlemen we saw in that video just walking in front of those government agents with guns? Why didn't they arrest them?

Ed Calderon 53:18 They should have, they should have-

Joe Rogan 53:19 Seems like those are lawbreakers.

Ed Calderon 53:22 Well, the only people that respect those laws are, you know, law-abiding citizens. There was a case in Veracruz of an old man, a former army guy, older gentleman. Uh, his son tried to get abducted, something like that. He had this old Mauser rifle, and he shot dead one of the guys that was chasing him, that was trying to abduct him. He was arrested for the firearm possession.

Joe Rogan 53:50 Mauser is what Lee Harvey Oswald supposedly used on JFK.

Ed Calderon 53:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:54 That's an old-ass gun.

Ed Calderon 53:56 Well, there's a lot of weird old-ass stuff down there. I mean, as far as the stuff that gets handed over or just the weird exotic firearms down there, a lot of people call Mexico the US's garage. And like garages, you just find weird stuff down there from old World War II era pistols and explosives to new stuff. Like, there's a friend of mine that works for the government down there, told me that they found a bunch of parts for a minigun in a house somewhere down there.

Joe Rogan 54:29 What's a minigun?

Ed Calderon 54:30 It's basically... Remember that, remember that Terminator 2 movie?

Joe Rogan 54:36 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 54:36 Brrr. That thing?

Joe Rogan 54:37 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ed Calderon 54:38 It's pretty hard to get.

Joe Rogan 54:40 One of those?

Ed Calderon 54:40 Yeah, one of those. Uh, apparently there's one out there somewhere on a vehicle of some sort.

Joe Rogan 54:46 Oh, Jesus.

Ed Calderon 54:47 It's basically... It'll obliterate everything.

Joe Rogan 54:49 Well, we talked about the Ed Holder Fast and Furious deal last time that you were here, and that, to me, still is one of the most bizarre cases in the history of an undercover operation...That doesn't make any sense at all.

Ed Calderon 55:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:06 They sold guns. Like literally-

Ed Calderon 55:09 They-

Joe Rogan 55:09 ... sold working guns.

Ed Calderon 55:11 To a specific cartel down there and it-

Joe Rogan 55:12 To try to tr- was it so they could track them? Or I don't remember what kind of-

Ed Calderon 55:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:16 ... bullshit argument that was.

Ed Calderon 55:18 But, but it, the, the interesting part or if you wanna go into the, you know, questions that, that they benefited a single cartel, the Sinaloa cartel. That's the, uh, that's the thing, you know. That's, most of the guns went to that.

Joe Rogan 55:29 If you had a guess, if you were a conspiracy theorist, like put on your tinfoil hat, what do you think that was all about?

Ed Calderon 55:36 Uh, they would probably, as a, as a, as a nation, you would probably want, wanting to only worry about a single threat as far as cartels and not a lot of cartels.

Joe Rogan 55:47 So they empowered one cartel?

Ed Calderon 55:48 Yeah. S-

Joe Rogan 55:49 Really?

Ed Calderon 55:49 I, I mean, we're, that was coming off the, uh, Patriot Act era, Bush era thing. I remember vividly people putting Geiger counters in some of the drug tunnels that we would find. So they were worried about nukes getting put into drug tunnels at, at some point during, during that whole post-9/11 era.

Joe Rogan 56:11 Psh.

Ed Calderon 56:11 So it would make sense that if you were an, uh, uh, worried about national security, you would want to not worry about a lot of cartels, maybe focus on one, support one, and just keep us in the know.

Joe Rogan 56:24 Do you think this was a covert operation in the sense of that the Sinaloa cartel was not aware that they were doing this to empower them to eliminate the competition, to strengthen one group 'cause they just knew it was inevitable that someone-

Ed Calderon 56:35 There's a lot-

Joe Rogan 56:36 ... takes control?

Ed Calderon 56:36 There's a lot of people that are now coming out after the, the whole, uh, there's a lot of things that were said at the, uh, Chapo trial that are, that would lead somebody to believe that there was some sort of official support from the US government to the Sinaloa cartel as far as them having deals with these, this cartel specifically to keep things, to keep them in the know about things happening down there. Uh, supporting them to be the, be in a position so they can keep control over their region and basically as an information group so they can have, have a clear eye and ear in a chaotic area like Mexico on the bad guy's side. That's what I th- that's what I gather from it.

Joe Rogan 57:18 Jesus Christ. But that kinda, uh, it's, it's al- it's almost like-

Ed Calderon 57:22 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 57:23 ... they feel like it's helpless. Like th- they have to do something like that, that they have to do that because there's no way to fix it. So what you gotta do is kinda try to manage it or move it in certain directions.

Ed Calderon 57:35 Well, there's, there's, there's, there's all of, like every no- every now and then I post some s- stuff up, uh, about that, uh, type of situation and everybody goes to, "Well, the CIA has been running drugs into the US for years and, and using planes," and stuff like that. There is, there are, uh, incidences of CIA involvement in different stuff down in Mexico that, you know, are, are, are pretty obvious now from the '80s and, and the '90s, uh, as far as supporting certain groups or just trying to keep tabs on these people. But, you know, I think we're coming to a point in our history where a lot of these people are dead, a lot of these people are in jail, a lot of these people got book deals.

Joe Rogan 58:12 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 58:13 And a lot of these people are talking and you're, you're, I mean, it's interesting seeing some of the stuff that is coming out now that in my time when I was active would have gotten you in a hole probably somewhere if you talked about it.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Oh.

Ed Calderon 58:25 So there is definitely, I mean, I, I, I, my mind was blown when I was seeing El Chapo on Netflix because a lot (laughs) of stuff that was going on in that show is fictionalized stuff that I went through myself. So I was like, "This is on Netflix now?"

Joe Rogan 58:40 How accurate was it?

Ed Calderon 58:42 There's some pretty good accurate parts. So there's a, there's a character in that show called, uh, Sol-

Joe Rogan 58:47 We're talking about Narcos-

Ed Calderon 58:48 The-

Joe Rogan 58:48 ... and we're talking about the Mexican version-

Ed Calderon 58:49 The-

Joe Rogan 58:49 ... of Narcos, right? 'Cause there was a-

Ed Calderon 58:50 So we're that, there's a-

Joe Rogan 58:51 ... Colombian first.

Ed Calderon 58:52 Yeah. There, there's a ver- Narcos is pretty good. There's a, there's a El Chapo series on Netflix as well.

Joe Rogan 58:58 Oh, there is?

Ed Calderon 58:58 Yeah. It's in Spanish. It's very popular, but it's pretty accurate. There's a guy in the, in the, in the show-

Joe Rogan 59:04 Does it have subtitles?

Ed Calderon 59:04 It does.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Oh.

Ed Calderon 59:06 Uh, there's a guy in the show, uh, Conrado Sol is his name, which wa- nobody, which people were trying to figure out who that was. It's basically a government, uh, guy that had a deal with El Chapo and they both kind of escalated in power. It turns out it was Luna, right? So this show was showing him, the character, uh, El Sol, which depicts Luna as a corrupt politician that was working security, was working both sides. And all of a sudden, you know, recently, a few months, a few weeks back, they arrested the guy.

Joe Rogan 59:37 Wow.

Ed Calderon 59:38 You know? So the show was kind of predictive there.

Joe Rogan 59:40 Do- (laughs) do you think that the show had anything to do with him being arrested?

Ed Calderon 59:44 I mean, it probably put, uh, put the idea in the zeitgeist of people to ask questions, you know?

Joe Rogan 59:49 Yeah. That's weird that shows actually do do that. Like saving, Surviving R. Kelly.

Ed Calderon 59:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:55 That's what got him arrested. I mean, everybody knew-

Ed Calderon 59:58 It's, it's

Narrator 59:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:58 ... he was peeing on people and like fucking 20 years ago, he was peeing on little kids.

Ed Calderon 1:00:02 But, you know, it, and now it gives people like a, a, it, it's interesting. You see-

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:00:06 ... you see fictionalized forms of stuff that happened down there. The Narcos show as well is another thing, you know, see fictionalized things of-

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 1:00:13 ... how some of these powerful cartel groups kind of originated themselves in fiction. And now that is in the public, uh, kind of domain as far as collective knowledge. So people start asking questions and some of these things, and apparently people in power also ask questions as well.

Joe Rogan 1:00:29 Jesus Christ.

Ed Calderon 1:00:31 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:31 It's just, uh, it's so strange how popular it's become, you know, and, uh, it's such a, uh, a popular focal point of fiction as well.

Ed Calderon 1:00:40 And, uh, and, and fashion, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:00:42 El Chapo's picture with, uh, Sean Penn.

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:00:46 The shirt was like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 Uh-huh.

Ed Calderon 1:00:48 ... fire.

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 Beautiful.

Ed Calderon 1:00:48 Everybody wanted that shirt.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 You know that, uh, Conor McGregor like wore something to mimic it when, on purpose when he was-

Ed Calderon 1:00:54 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 ... pro- in the press conference for Rafael dos Anjos. Did you know that?

Ed Calderon 1:00:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I heard something about it.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 He even stood, he stood in the same stance. Like look at him, look at him.

Ed Calderon 1:01:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 I mean, he's doing it on purpose.

Ed Calderon 1:01:05 Yeah, that's, that's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 It's like a subtle-

Ed Calderon 1:01:07 ... that's El Chapo.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 ... nod to El Chapo.

Ed Calderon 1:01:08 Yeah. I mean, he's a, he, he, El Chapo has achieved legendary status. Now-

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 For sure.

Ed Calderon 1:01:14 Now his kid that, uh, was freed by the, the, uh, the cartel down there, he was wearing a scapulario, which is like, um, you could s- I don't, I don't know if you can see it in there. It's an interesting just bit, piece of, uh, cultural thing from Mexico.

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 Like, what is going on in this video that we're watching here?

Ed Calderon 1:01:31 So he just handed the gun over, hi- his personal gun over to one of his, uh, bodyguards that was not even... These guys don't even care about him. This is a head, head, head, head camera thing, and they're, you know, putting everybody out there. And personally, I would put everybody in zip ties and on the ground, personally.

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 So these guys all have guns drawn, and there's people inside with guns drawn at them. And they're getting-

Ed Calderon 1:01:53 And they realize, they realize who they have now, so they're like, "Uh, should we forcefully put him in cuffs? Should we not?"

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 So how do you know that they're realizing this, right? Is it because of the language?

Ed Calderon 1:02:02 B- Uh, well, these people-

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 What they're saying?

Ed Calderon 1:02:04 I've went through a lot of the same training that they went through, and I did a lot of this type of stuff, and all of them would have been in zip ties on the ground.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Look at this girl, went, reached out and grabbed their guns and put their guns down.

Ed Calderon 1:02:14 It's com- There's, there's fear in these people. They realized that they messed up.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 Oh, Jesus.

Ed Calderon 1:02:21 Right? So that's what, you know, people question.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 And are, are these streaming this video live?

Ed Calderon 1:02:26 They, they, they have their-

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 On the headcams?

Ed Calderon 1:02:28 They have a headcam, and they're streaming it not... Well, it's not, you know, they, they, they, they, they, they have it-

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 Recording it.

Ed Calderon 1:02:34 ... recording it, uh, and, and it gets sent back to the command post. So when he was moving around, he had one of these on. This is a scapulario, it's called. It's like a religious Catholic iconography thing, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:45 What is yours? What is it?

Ed Calderon 1:02:47 Uh, this is a Santa Muerte one, right? It's like a holy death effigy, and-

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 So he had that on.

Ed Calderon 1:02:52 He had... His was a Santo Niño de Atocha, which is like a, a Catholic, uh, uh, Christ baby saint they have. As soon as that picture of him went on online, they were sold out all throughout Sinaloa.

Joe Rogan 1:03:06 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 1:03:06 Everybody was wearing the... They have to work, you know. They work. Those work because-

Joe Rogan 1:03:10 Oh. He got him free.

Ed Calderon 1:03:11 ... because... Got him free.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 There he is.

Ed Calderon 1:03:13 There he is. That's the, uh, that's a scapulario, Santo Niño de Atocha.

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Handsome guy.

Ed Calderon 1:03:16 Yeah. Th- that- that- that's an also an interesting cultural thing, uh, the, the, the occult part of it, where that, that Santo Niño de Atocha shrine is, right now, it's probably most popular shrines in Mexico are that one because they work. And then you go to the holy death shrines down there as well, and you, you see how, how both sides, both Mexican government forces and the cartel, they, they both venerate kind of the same saints. So it's... That... Again, that's a weird kind of a thing. They share that faith.

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 What is that picture of his truck down there, Jamie? You have some wacky truck? No? It's just a regular truck?

Ed Calderon 1:03:54 Uh, I, I... So-

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 That's his-

Ed Calderon 1:03:56 Yeah, that's one of his armor.

Joe Rogan 1:03:57 ... house riddled with bullets.

Ed Calderon 1:03:58 Uh, he gave out cars on Christmas. He, as a... Like, he did this party-

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 To who?

Ed Calderon 1:04:05 To any, like, townspeople, where he was from.

Joe Rogan 1:04:07 How many cars did he give out?

Ed Calderon 1:04:08 I have no idea. Like, a lot of them. There's, there's pictures of the... Uh, El Chapo's son gives out cars on Christmas, and there's a bunch of cars there. You know, again, who, who, who are you... Like, who, who are you gonna go-

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 Right.

Ed Calderon 1:04:20 ... towards him or-

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Of course.

Ed Calderon 1:04:22 ... the government, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:04:23 You give me a car, you don't give me anything.

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 Yeah. They, they... Like you said, hearts and minds. They're really-

Ed Calderon 1:04:29 Hearts-

Joe Rogan 1:04:29 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:04:29 Hearts and minds. And, and, and, uh, you know, uh, they, they, they, they pay for co- college educations, so, so there's a whole generation of lawyers, a whole generation of doctors. They pay for immigration, uh, uh, procedures. So, "Hey, you wanna..." You know, "Yeah, I'll pay for your immigration, but, you know, I'm gonna call in some favors later on." Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 Wow.

Ed Calderon 1:04:50 So that's, you know, that's, that's how, that's how they grow.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 It's full-on mafia shit.

Ed Calderon 1:04:54 Yeah. I mean, they, they learned that-

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 "One day I'll come to you."

Ed Calderon 1:04:58 Al Capone (laughs) , Al Capone, uh, you know, Scarface, uh, you know, all these things are kind of venerated by them. That's kind of their cultural backing. They-

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 1:05:08 They have pop culture backing. Uh, they, they kind of look to the mob era guys as influence or as inspiration. You see, you know, insane paintings of, uh, The Godfather or, or, or Scarface in some of these, uh, safe houses where these people are. Right? And you're like, "Wow, okay." Or you see cartel-influenced, uh, series for Netflix. Like, uh, there's one called La Reina del Sur, which is about a, a female, uh, a cartel head. Um, and the f- the, the lady that, that stars in that show was the one that took Sean Penn down there to meet El Chapo because El Chapo was-

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Oh, no.

Ed Calderon 1:05:44 El Chapo was a fan of that show. Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 Really?

Ed Calderon 1:05:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 That's how it got going? (laughs)

Ed Calderon 1:05:49 When they finally caught up to him, he had the whole series on DVDs at his safe house-

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 (laughs)

Ed Calderon 1:05:54 ... which is pretty... It humanized him a little bit.

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 Oh my Go- That, that whole scene with Sean Penn going down there and writing a story for Rolling Stone was uber bizarre.

Ed Calderon 1:06:04 Yeah. Well, if, if they get the, the terrorist designation, he basically went down there to meet with a terrorist.

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 What happens to him then? Is it, uh, retroactive?

Ed Calderon 1:06:12 I don't know. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 But they... He helped get him arrested in, in a sense, right?

Ed Calderon 1:06:17 Well, he basically... Th- that whole commotion put eyes on, on the movements of El Chapo by the Mexican government.

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 Why would El Chapo agree to do something like that?

Ed Calderon 1:06:29 He was a fan of the show.

Joe Rogan 1:06:30 (laughs) That seems so crazy though. Doesn't it seem crazy that he was willing to take that kind of a risk?

Ed Calderon 1:06:38 And-

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 Take a photo with Sean Penn and that, that actress.

Ed Calderon 1:06:42 Well, um-

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 What's, what's her name again?

Ed Calderon 1:06:44 Ka- uh, Ka- uh, Kate, Kate del Castillo.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Yeah, right there.

Ed Calderon 1:06:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 He was... Chapo was probably buying that, right? If I had to guess.

Ed Calderon 1:06:51 There's rumors. There's rumors of, uh, of, of, of a meeting. That's about it. I don't know anything else about-

Joe Rogan 1:06:56 If I had to guess, I would say yes. But just the whole thing. Look at Sean Penn smiling. "Hey, here's my friend, the murderer."

Ed Calderon 1:07:06 Well, I mean, um-I, I get the, uh, I, I, I mean, he ... I've, I've heard some of the stuff, uh, Sean Penn said, said about, you know, Chavez in Venezuela and stuff like that- Mm-hmm. ... and how he's pro-Chavez and stuff like that, and I have people, friends of mine that live in Venezuela under that regime. So, he's p- he's a pretty kooky guy. Uh, he has some pretty interesting ideas about-

Joe Rogan 1:07:25 He can't possibly be that informed.

Ed Calderon 1:07:29 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 I mean, how ... You, you really have to have boots on the ground to understand-

Ed Calderon 1:07:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 ... what the fuck you're talking about. I mean, you have to be there for ... You know, if you wanna know what's going on in Venezuela, there's so many different stories. My friend Abby Martin's been down there multiple times, and she gives me a, uh, a story that's so different than anything that you're getting in mainstream news, and she goes there.

Ed Calderon 1:07:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 She goes there and talks to people.

Ed Calderon 1:07:50 Yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 And spends time.

Ed Calderon 1:07:52 Well, uh, I have a, there's a, there's a resistance group that is based in the US that works down there and, you know, they put up videos all the time, uh, of people picking up garbage and trying to recycle garbage to be- feed themselves in some places. Instagram immediately takes all those down, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:10 Really?

Ed Calderon 1:08:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:11 Why does Instagram take those down?

Ed Calderon 1:08:13 I have a lot of that going on as well. When I post something completely news-related about something and it, it, and then get, uh, shadowbanned or things just go down, uh, depending on what I post up. Like, weird things. Um, posted up, uh, a, uh, uh, a Venezuelan people throwing rocks at this armored vehicle, and one of them, I think one of them got ru- run over, and that got taken down. It ... I didn't show the, the, the part where he got run over, but just the people protesting. It got flagged.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 How would that get taken down?

Ed Calderon 1:08:44 It got flagged as support for a hate group or something like that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 Support for a hate group-

Ed Calderon 1:08:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:50 ... by showing the news?

Ed Calderon 1:08:51 Yeah, or showing a picture of cartel. And again, I don't post anything graphic on my feed because I don't wanna get banned, but I'm still shadowbanned, right? So-

Joe Rogan 1:09:00 Well, you showed that one ... By the way, uh, Ed Manifesto, that's how you find it, Ed Manifesto, that's, uh, that, uh, that's Ed's page. Um, you posted that one where you, you saw a guy getting abducted-

Ed Calderon 1:09:11 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:12 ... by fake cops.

Ed Calderon 1:09:13 Yeah, yeah, and, um, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:09:15 Did that one get pulled?

Ed Calderon 1:09:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 It did?

Ed Calderon 1:09:17 Yeah. All of the, all of the recent Sinaloa video ones are n- are all p- were all pulled off the-

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 Really?

Ed Calderon 1:09:23 ... the Instagram account. That's why I had to re-upload them all.

Joe Rogan 1:09:25 I just don't understand their logic.

Ed Calderon 1:09:28 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:28 I mean, uh, look, I can understand them, um, saying, "Caution: some of these i- uh, i- images and videos are sensitive," you know, like with some bloody things and things along those lines.

Ed Calderon 1:09:39 S- ... Something changed in the algorithms a year back. Like, when I was on your ... The first time I was on your show, I got ... Uh, obviously, I s- I saw a spike. Thank you, by the way. Uh, but all of the, uh, pro-Second Amendment, uh, pages and, uh, people like ... There's a guy, Crispy, who was a-

Joe Rogan 1:09:55 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:09:55 ... veteran. You know?

Joe Rogan 1:09:56 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 1:09:56 He also ... H- he got a lot of ... He started ... All of a sudden, all of us started seeing a lot of our stuff flagged.

Joe Rogan 1:10:01 Yeah, his stuff got taken down.

Ed Calderon 1:10:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 He got... I think he got a pho- ... There was a photo of him with Donald Trump that got taken down.

Ed Calderon 1:10:08 Yeah, that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 1:10:09 Or I think it was Donald Trump Jr.

Ed Calderon 1:10:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:10 I'm like, "What the fuck is wrong with you people?"

Ed Calderon 1:10:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:13 Just because you don't align with someone politically, you can't take down photos, and you can't pretend that he's posing with Hitler or something. Like-

Ed Calderon 1:10:20 Yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:10:20 ... what the fuck is wrong with you?

Ed Calderon 1:10:21 It's, it's, uh, it's the ab- ... People can report things anonymously, I think, and-

Joe Rogan 1:10:27 Yes.

Ed Calderon 1:10:28 And if you hurt my feelings, there you go.

Joe Rogan 1:10:31 So, if there's enough people that flag your video and say, "This is hurtful," or, "This is ..." They don't even look into it. They just pull it down.

Ed Calderon 1:10:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 So, who do you think is doing ... Do you think it's the Mexican government that's doing that?

Ed Calderon 1:10:41 No.

Joe Rogan 1:10:41 Do you think it's the cartels that are doing that to your page?

Ed Calderon 1:10:43 No, I think it's just ... I think it's, uh, mostly Americans that have sensibilities that are completely beyond my comprehension that, uh, see a gun in a, in a, in a picture and they're afraid of the gun, and it's a h- ... It's terrorism, they're supporting terrorism hate group. Let's report that picture or video.

Joe Rogan 1:10:58 Well, I, I can understand how some of what you're reporting on, truthful as it may be, would be disturbing to people to find out that truth.

Ed Calderon 1:11:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:06 But you gotta let people do that.

Ed Calderon 1:11:08 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:08 I mean, I mean, what does Instagram want it to ... D- did it ... I mean, do they wanna put parameters on what kinda truth you're allowed to-

Ed Calderon 1:11:14 Yeah, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:11:14 ... distribute?

Ed Calderon 1:11:15 But p- p- ... So, uh, just for people to get some context, I, I do work for two, two magazine companies, and I do do articles. So, in that regard, I do provide news in, in, in, in, in certain ways. Um, but when I post something on my page, it's a personal view of something. I purposefully don't go into graphic material because I don't wanna get flagged. But sometimes there's always people with a certain affinity to when they see a gun in a post or where they see an animal being butchered, uh, for something like ... in, in, in a picture, or when they see hunting-related stuff, or when they see some sort of a ... I remember posting up a picture of the Make Tijuana Great Again hats that they were making down there, red hats that said, "Make Tijuana Great Again" when the caravans went into TJ and people started protesting the caravans in TJ. That got flagged.

Joe Rogan 1:12:07 What?

Ed Calderon 1:12:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:12:09 That is so crazy. Uh.

Ed Calderon 1:12:14 Yeah. They-

Joe Rogan 1:12:15 God.

Ed Calderon 1:12:15 If you wanna confuse, uh, if you wanna make people angry and confused, just wear one of those hats through the airport.

Joe Rogan 1:12:19 Yeah, well a lady got maced in the face for wearing one that said, "Make Bitcoin Great Again."

Ed Calderon 1:12:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:25 Some guy maced her in the face.

Ed Calderon 1:12:26 Yeah, I saw som-

Joe Rogan 1:12:27 Knocked her hat off.

Ed Calderon 1:12:28 I saw somebody walk down ... uh, walk in an airport with a Make Hentai Great Again hat.

Joe Rogan 1:12:33 Sh-

Ed Calderon 1:12:33 I looked at it.

Joe Rogan 1:12:33 Make anything great again. You got ... You can't do it. You can't make-

Ed Calderon 1:12:36 It's too close.

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 Yeah, it's too close. I mean, you know, that ... the hat, you know, red hat.

Ed Calderon 1:12:39 It ... I have never seen anything more divisive in this country. I mean, other than, like, a swastika or something, like, overtly disgusting. I, I, I, uh, I started my immigration process when he got elected.

Joe Rogan 1:12:53 Oh, no. (laughs)

Ed Calderon 1:12:53 (laughs) It's, it's, it's been a trip, you know? I-

Joe Rogan 1:12:59 How does that work? Like, if you are a Mexican-born citizen and you wanna become a United States citizen-

Ed Calderon 1:13:05 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:13:05 ... obviously it's very difficult.

Ed Calderon 1:13:06 I- i- it ... So, married to an American, have an American kid.That's how I went through the process myself and, uh, you know, I got a Green Card. Um, the- the thing is that when he got elected, everybody said, "You know what? Maybe our time to get a Green Card's gonna get, be less and less, so let's all try and get one."

Joe Rogan 1:13:25 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 1:13:25 So what would take normally six months took two years.

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 Oh, wow.

Ed Calderon 1:13:30 So in those two years, you can't leave the country.

Joe Rogan 1:13:33 So if you- w- w- what happens to people that are illegal over- that's what's fucked up about it, right? It's like there's people that came over here illegally 20, 30 years ago and they've done no crimes, they've been an integral part of society, they've had great lives, but they- they can't pay taxes, they can't vote. They have to live undercover.

Ed Calderon 1:13:54 Yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:13:54 It's fucked. It's stupid.

Ed Calderon 1:13:56 ... they're- they're- they're, uh, you know, and they do provide, you know, they do provide.

Joe Rogan 1:14:00 Yes.

Ed Calderon 1:14:00 They pay taxes through other methods.

Joe Rogan 1:14:02 Well, through sales tax buying things.

Ed Calderon 1:14:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:04 But they're not paying taxes. They're not com- but if you made them citizens, you would make money.

Ed Calderon 1:14:10 Yeah, well.

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 But...

Ed Calderon 1:14:11 It's not a popular view.

Joe Rogan 1:14:12 It's a stupid view.

Ed Calderon 1:14:13 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 It's a st- it's just, it's stupid that we have these people and that they're permanent illegals.

Ed Calderon 1:14:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:19 And they will be here until they die illegally and we know h- they're here.

Ed Calderon 1:14:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:22 Like how about work with what you've got? Look, you've already, you're doing your best to stop the border traffic, great, fantastic. But listen, just forget about the past. These people are here. They're here and they're a part of our community. Like how you- how are you gonna deny them citizenship till the day they die and they're still here?

Ed Calderon 1:14:40 Well, legal immigration, just like I went through, is hard enough.

Joe Rogan 1:14:45 Yeah, you gotta find some American lady.

Ed Calderon 1:14:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14:47 That shit's difficult.

Ed Calderon 1:14:48 Uh, yeah, I- I- I get it, yo.

Joe Rogan 1:14:49 You got lucky. (laughs)

Ed Calderon 1:14:50 I did, you know. And, uh, you know, but it- it was a hard process. Uh, it's, uh, it's- it's- it's a difficult process to be illegal.

Joe Rogan 1:14:58 And you speak fluent English.

Ed Calderon 1:15:01 I, yes, that's another thing.

Joe Rogan 1:15:03 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:15:03 I saw people in the line with me, uh, you know, that did not speak a lick of English.

Joe Rogan 1:15:10 Mm-hmm.

Ed Calderon 1:15:10 But they were from a country that had a quota.

Joe Rogan 1:15:14 Oh.

Ed Calderon 1:15:14 And they're great, they're fine.

Joe Rogan 1:15:15 Like Holland or some shit, yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:15:17 They're from a country that has a quota, so they're great.

Joe Rogan 1:15:19 Yeah.

Ed Calderon 1:15:19 But you're not- you're not, you're not-

Joe Rogan 1:15:21 It's hard for Canadians, man. I have friends from Canada that have come over here to try to become citizens.

Ed Calderon 1:15:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:26 It's a fucking grind.

Ed Calderon 1:15:28 Yeah. A- a- and- and- and don't get me wrong, I love this country. A- a bit, I'm new here