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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1415 - Bari Weiss

Bari Weiss is an American opinion writer and editor. In 2017, Weiss joined The New York Times as a staff editor in the opinion section. Her new book "How to Fight Anti-Semitism" is now available. https://amzn.to/2Gh7WIL

Joe RoganhostBari WeissguestGuest (secondary in-room voice)guest
Jan 21, 20202h 33mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:01 – 0:47

    Cold open banter: turmeric, Laird Hamilton vs. Goop, and “vagina rocks”

    1. JR

      3, 2, 1. (hands clap) Hello, Bari.

    2. BW

      Hi, Joe.

    3. JR

      Great. Oh-

    4. BW

      (laughs)

    5. JR

      ... double, double guns. Good to see you. (hands clapping)

    6. BW

      Great to see you, too.

    7. JR

      So, uh-

    8. BW

      I'm enjoying my turmeric.

    9. JR

      You are, right?

    10. BW

      Super food.

    11. JR

      It's good. Laird Hamilton's onto something, right?

    12. BW

      Very. Laird Hamilton and Gwyneth Paltrow-

    13. JR

      No.

    14. BW

      ... I guess.

    15. JR

      No, don't put them together.

    16. BW

      They've never done the turmeric thing.

    17. JR

      No, no, no.

    18. BW

      (laughs)

    19. JR

      One is a world champion athlete, one of the greatest surfers the world has ever known.

    20. BW

      Okay.

    21. JR

      The other one is a wonderful actress, who is Iron Man's girlfriend.

    22. BW

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      There's a difference. There's a big difference.

    24. BW

      And, you know, a major mogul, who-

    25. JR

      And wants you to put-

    26. BW

      ... determines what people like me want to purchase, buy, and look like.

    27. JR

      She wants you to put vagina rocks-

    28. BW

      Yes.

    29. JR

      ... in there, right?

    30. BW

      Jade, jade, jade stones?

  2. 0:47 – 4:16

    A “closeted normalcy” era: polarization, Trump backlash, and fear of saying what you mean

    1. JR

      Um, so l- ... I ... When we were talking so well before the podcast rolled out, lo- ... I just wanted to just, just start it. You know? And we don't, we don't have to talk about presidential candidates. We don't have to talk about all that. But w- we're in a weird time, you know? And, uh, uh, to speak to what we were talking about before, we were just talking about how people are so strange. There's so much, so many people ... There's a, just a big disconnect between what people actually think and what they actually say. And I think this is, in my life, this is the first time that I've ever really experienced it this, at this level. There's a hysteria because people are being punished for their real beliefs instead of, like, having, uh, the ability to express themselves and have other people disagree and have some sort of rational discussion. There's ... This is a, a strange time where you have to toe the status quo. You have to toe the line. And I'm try- ... I've been trying to figure out what it is, but I think a big part of it is the opposition to Trump. I think people's opposition to Trump is so strong that-

    2. BW

      People have lost their minds.

    3. JR

      Yeah. It seems like the, the people that oppose him, they, they, they just want complete and total compliance-

    4. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      ... with, with opposition, with, with this different way of thinking. Does that make sense?

    6. BW

      Yeah, it's like the stakes are so high that everyone needs to be on side and an active part of the resistance. And if you deviate in any way, it shows that you're a squish or that you're actually loyal to the other side. And in fact what that side of things is doing is that they're limiting the spectrum of what's allowed to say so, so, so narrowly, that people, I think, are becoming kind of secretly radicalized because they can't-

    7. JR

      In the other way.

    8. BW

      Yes.

    9. JR

      Yes, yes.

    10. BW

      And honestly, like, you're great, but I think one of the reasons you're so unbelievably popular is because you just say what you think, and you bring other people on here to say what they think. And the number of places where that actually happens is unbelievably small and getting smaller.

    11. JR

      It's so strange. And you get shit for it. That's what's really crazy. Like, you ... I, I'm, I'm a nice person. Like, my thoughts on these things that I, uh, discuss in this show are well thought out, and I only hope to do good, like legitimately. I mean, I mock things, and I, uh, uh ... You know, I'm a comedian. But at the end of the day, I want everybody to be happy.

    12. BW

      (laughs)

    13. JR

      I really genuinely do. I think that's possible. I think it's possible in small groups, right? I mean, this is what-

    14. BW

      Well-

    15. JR

      ... the analogy I always use. If it was just the three of us on Earth, I think we'd get along great.

    16. BW

      (laughs)

    17. JR

      I mean, we'd have our disagreements, but there would be no war. There certainly would ... None ... The three of us wouldn't kill each other, right? You, me, and Jamie?

    18. BW

      Hmm.

    19. JR

      I th- ... I just-

    20. BW

      I don't know. I don't think-

    21. JR

      I don't think we'd kill each other.

    22. BW

      ... Mr. Jamie, but ... (laughs)

    23. JR

      Jamie's a good guy.

    24. BW

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      But the, but my point is, like, why can't we scale that out? Why can't we all just get along in larger groups? Well, a lot of it is n- ... a lack of communication. A lot of it is, uh, you know, uh, greed, and I mean, there's s- ... uh, there's so many different reasons why you can't scale that to millions and millions of people. But it just seems like there's no, no, um, weirder time, where things don't make sense and progress seems to be stalled socially, than today.

    26. BW

      And, like, the way that I think about it lately is I feel like normalcy is closeted. Like, normal people I know that have just, like, very sensible beliefs are scared to even say those things out loud.

    27. JR

      Right.

    28. BW

      And I think that that is just a sign of deeply unhealthy culture, and it m- ... It, like, it only contributes to this sort of polarization and extremes that we're, that we're seeing.

  3. 4:16 – 6:30

    Nuance under pressure: sex vs. gender, pronouns, and the binary-thinking trap

    1. JR

      Yeah, like, you, you were talking about the denial of the biological differences between males and females. Like, I, I st- ... Uh, and where p- ... This, this is something that people openly w- w- wanna support today. They wanna pretend that there is no difference.

    2. BW

      Well, it's like, you can both believe that there are two sexes and that there are biological differences between men and women and also believe that if someone asks you to call them by a different pronoun than the, the one that they used to go by or whatever, that you wanna respect that person and that life is so hard, and why wouldn't you just go along with that?

    3. JR

      Sure.

    4. BW

      Those are two beliefs that many people I know hold. And yet, to suggest that, um, gender and sex are only a construct, and i- is something that people don't feel like they can express right now.

    5. JR

      That, th- that it's only a construct?

    6. BW

      I know a lot of people who feel like they can only say that gender and sex are a construct.

    7. JR

      Oh, they're-

    8. BW

      Yes.

    9. JR

      ... they're st- ... Okay. Uh, w-

    10. BW

      They're stuck saying that.

    11. JR

      The way you were phrasing, it sounded like the other way.

    12. BW

      I'm saying that, like, two things are possible at once.

    13. JR

      Sure.

    14. BW

      You can believe in biological difference and believe that people should be respected and that, you know, if someone wants to change their gender and that life becomes much more ... You know, Sharon's gender is real, and also sex differences are real.

    15. JR

      Yes.

    16. BW

      And those two things are possible at once.

    17. JR

      Yes, yes.

    18. BW

      I think about that a lot, you know, with my, with my book, with the case of someone like Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. It's like, Ilhan Omar is the subject of bigotry, not least from the president of the United States. And yet, Ilhan Omar herself has said some things about Jews and-... Israel that are themselves bigoted. Both things are true at once, and yet we're living in a, in a society where it seems like you can only choose one of those two sides.

    19. JR

      Yes, a binary society as opposed to a nuanced one. That's what's weird about today. It's like you... We're dealing with the same amount of intelligent people, but they seem to be shackled in their, their ability to express themselves honestly.

  4. 6:30 – 8:34

    Cancel culture mechanics: who can survive it, and why social media turns cruel

    1. BW

      And so what are they scared of, right?

    2. JR

      Repercussions.

    3. BW

      Right.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. BW

      And because those are real, right? You look at someone... I think that one thing that's overlooked in this, when we talk about cancel culture, right, and the social ostracism and the actual firings that can happen when you, uh, break with one another orthodoxy, is that the people who are inoculated from it are people that are already extremely successful and can take the risk. It's why Ricky Gervais can be Ricky Gervais. It's why JK Rowling-

    6. JR

      Yes.

    7. BW

      ... can tweet what she tweeted a few months ago and survive it, because they've already accumulated enough capital. The people that I hear from that are completely screwed by it are people like artists and poets and untenured professors who aren't famous and no one knows about and are, you know, having to go with a begging bowl on Patreon or Venmo or whatever to get support after they've, you know, made a bad joke or whatever it is.

    8. JR

      Yes, yes. That's, uh, that, that is exactly what's happening. Yeah. It's, um... I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm sure that this is because of social media. I'm sure this is the, the repercussions of having this new form of communication that people don't wield responsibly, that this, these attacks on people, you, you do them m- much more flippantly than you would if you were across from someone.

    9. BW

      Of course, because there's no... There's so little-

    10. JR

      Repercussions.

    11. BW

      ... shame on the internet-

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. BW

      ... because people are disinhibited. It's like-

    14. JR

      Yes.

    15. BW

      ... people say things to me on the internet that are... I wouldn't even mention them here. I mean, they're so vile. They're dis- they're disgusting, and yet I've seen some of these people in real life.

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. BW

      And they would never even-

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. BW

      ... have the courage to approach me on the street.

    20. JR

      What's... They're not real expressions. When they're, when they're doing that, they're just, they're button pushing. They're throwing rocks at glass. And this is a good jump off point for, um, your book on antisemitism. You know, I, I reached out to you because antisemitism, uh, you know, obviously I'm not Jewish, so it's, it's something that has always baffled me. I don't-

    21. BW

      There's still hope for you, Joe.

    22. JR

      Thank you. Can I convert?

    23. BW

      (laughs) Yes.

    24. JR

      I've ne- I never... I don't under-

    25. BW

      We'll hook you up to some LA rabbis.

  5. 8:34 – 13:50

    From Catholic school trauma to secular parenting: living “as if” moral principles are real

    1. JR

      But I, but I would have to d- I'd have to go through like a lengthy thing. Like, you can't just convert, right? My uncle converted.

    2. BW

      What's the lengthy thing?

    3. JR

      My uncle, Salvatore, Salvatore DiGirlando converted.

    4. BW

      I love it.

    5. JR

      Yeah. He converted-

    6. BW

      Is he alive?

    7. JR

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. He converted when we were kids. That was when I first found out about Judaism. I was like, "What is it?" Like, I didn't understand what it was. You know, we were raised Catholic, and I was like... Oh, God. I guess I was probably like five or six when he was converting, so he had to take all these classes and, you know, go, go through all the, the stuff that you have to do. And, uh-

    8. BW

      Why did he convert?

    9. JR

      He married a woman-

    10. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    11. JR

      ... who was Jewish, and she was like, "Crack that whip." (laughs)

    12. BW

      (laughs)

    13. JR

      My aunt Jackie, she told him what's up. So when... But when that was all going down, that was the first time I'd ever questioned religion, because I was like, "Wait, wait, wait. What is that? What is Judaism?" And then they explained. I go, "Well, do they believe in God?"

    14. BW

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      And they're like, "Yeah." "Okay. But is it a different god?" They're like, "No, it's the same God."

    16. BW

      Jesus was a Jew, Joe. Jesus was a Jew.

    17. JR

      Yeah. But that's why I was confused. I'm like, "Well, what is the difference?" Like, "Why, why is there..." I, I didn't know there was anything other than Catholic. I was five, you know?

    18. BW

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      I was baffled. And I remember thinking, like, "How many of these fucking things are there?"

    20. BW

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      (laughs) And then, and then I was told there were hundreds. I was like, "Oh, Jesus. This is a mess." And then I went to Catholic school for a year, and that really cured me.

    22. BW

      Of?

    23. JR

      Ugh. Any, any idea of religion being legitimate.

    24. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JR

      Catholic school was so brutal and so horrible-

    26. BW

      What did you learn about... What did you learn about the Jews in Catholic school?

    27. JR

      Nothing.

    28. BW

      Uh-huh.

    29. JR

      Yeah. It wasn't that. It was just meanness. It was just compliance and s- and fear and, "We're going to make you sit in a closet and on a bed of nails."

    30. BW

      What?

  6. 13:50 – 18:21

    Politics as the new religion: Jonathan Haidt, isolation, and “diseases of despair”

    1. BW

      Yes. I mean, this to me connects to the thing that we opened by talking about-

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. BW

      ... which is polarization and tribal, you know, the tribal politics we're living in. I think you've had Jonathan Haidt on the show.

    4. JR

      Yes.

    5. BW

      And his book, The Righteous Mind, is brilliant about this, that we were evolved to be religious creatures in a certain way, and what happens when we lose religion? That impulse goes somewhere.

    6. JR

      Yes.

    7. BW

      And I think that impulse has gone into, you know, politics and the culture war.

    8. JR

      Yes.

    9. BW

      You know? It's like, why are the stakes of that so unbelievably high? Because that is sort of the operating system that people are organizing their life around more and more.

    10. JR

      I think you're 100% right. I think it's the Protestants versus the Catholics.

    11. BW

      But it's like, what, what do we do, right?

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. BW

      Because we're, we're not gonna go back, like, to convince people that are unconvincable that they're, you know ... I think f- fighting for the idea of God is sort of a losing argument in the culture. So, how do we retain the good things that came from religious structures in a post-God age? I think that's a huge question.

    14. JR

      Well, what are, what are people really wary of? One of the things they're wary of is the recluse, right? We're wary, we're wary of the Unabomber.

    15. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      We're wary of that, that guy who lives in the woods and, and doesn't ... the, the isolationist who doesn't need anybody else. They're by themselves. Like, well, that person doesn't follow by the rules of our community. What, what are we comfortable about? We're comfortable about friendly neighbors. We're comfortable about like, "Hey, you need help? You know, you need me to help dig you out of the snow? Do you need this? Do you need that?"

    17. BW

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      Like, that's what we love, right? 'Cause then ... And we love people that share our values, right? We like to live in a community of shared values. Because then, you're like, you're all, we're all comforting each other. We're all saying, "We're all in this together. We're gonna have hardships. We're gonna have good times, but the, the ... we'll have more good times. We'll be able to get through the hardships if we operate together with similar values."

    19. BW

      Yeah. Yeah, but we're kind of ... We're not living in the age of the Unabomber, but we're certainly living in an age where people are completely isolated. You know, everyone on the campaign trail is talking about the diseases of despair and how the lifespan in this country has gone down for the past three ... life expectancy has gone down the past three years.

    20. JR

      Because of Trump? (laughs) It must be.

    21. BW

      Because of opioids.

    22. JR

      It has to be. Oh, it's Trump.

    23. BW

      Because, because people are out of work, because, because factories are closing, because we're going through whatever Andrew Yang calls it, the Fourth Industrial Revolution, because of globalization, because ... Like, we're living through an unbelievably trans- what I think will be remembered as an unbelievably transformative time-

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BW

      ... and Trump is only one data point.

    26. JR

      Yes.

    27. BW

      Like, he's a symptom and he's a catalyst, but he's not the whole picture. And to see him as the whole picture, I think, is just like completely missing the moment that we're in.

    28. JR

      Well put. Very well put. Yeah, um, I think y- I, I really think you, you just nailed it. I really think that's a lot of what's going on here. And I think ... I mean, what you said, but people enjoying when people can speak their mind. When people see someone like Ricky Gervais get up at the Golden Globes and say-

    29. BW

      They're like, "Yes."

    30. JR

      "Yes, yes."

  7. 18:21 – 21:33

    Self-censorship in journalism: the “social media Stasi” and choosing battles to avoid the guillotine

    1. BW

      I don't know. I think about, like, what would it look like if all the journalists at The Washington Post, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal were banned from being on Twitter?

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BW

      No, for real, 'cause like, what happens, right, is like, it's this circular thing where we all know the landmines, right? Like, the things we don't wanna touch, like the hills we don't wanna die on.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. BW

      And it's, what's scary about the Stasi-like atmosphere of it is, like, my job is to write opinion columns and commission other people to do that, and yet I feel the self-censoring even before I've written.

    6. JR

      Right.

    7. BW

      Right? Where I'm like, "Wait, I don't wanna die on that hill. I don't wanna die on that... Is that really the battle I wanna take on? I should probably just stick to this topic instead of that topic, because I know if I do that topic, like, I know what awaits me."

    8. JR

      Yes.

    9. BW

      It's like, why am I... Why would I willingly (laughs) go to the guillotine?

    10. JR

      Yes.

    11. BW

      You know? It's like... And people pretend like the reputational smears have no cost. Like, they're insane. Yeah.

    12. JR

      Well, that's what's weird about your position because you're an opinion writer.

    13. BW

      Right.

    14. JR

      I mean, that's what you do.

    15. BW

      Correct.

    16. JR

      And you're not allowed to give your honest opinion in a lot of people's eyes. They want you to be compliant with woke culture.

    17. BW

      And I think one of the reasons that I get in a lot of trouble or I'm provocative or whatever the words that go before my name are whenever I'm mentioned now, controversial, is because I, you know, I think m- more than other people, I refuse to follow the rule, because what's the point? Like, we're all gonna be (laughs) in the ground anyway.

    18. JR

      Yes.

    19. BW

      Like, I'm not gonna waste my life following some fake rule determined by random people on the internet. It's just not-

    20. JR

      No, and-

    21. BW

      ... like-

    22. JR

      ... this desire for you to comply, I mean, the, that... This is part of the game that's going on. When people don't have control over their own lives, they love to control other people's lives. And one of the things that happens when you have an opinion that does not follow the, you know, whatever the path has been clearly grooved for us to... When you, you're supposed to have very specific ideas about these very clearly defined subjects. When you deviate from those and people start attacking you, they're... What they're trying to do in many... The, this is a lot of what they're trying to do. It's, it's nuanced, but one of the things they're trying to do is they're trying to get you to listen to them so that they have some power. They feel powerless in the world-

    23. BW

      Yes.

    24. JR

      ... and if they can push your button, if they can break your glass, then they have some power.

    25. BW

      But they're also trying to issue a warning.

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. BW

      Right? They're issuing a warning to the people in their group saying, "If you deviate, we're gonna do to you what we're doing to her right now."

    28. JR

      Yes.

    29. BW

      "And it's gonna be relentless and, you know..." And it just like... What's sad about it is, like, the number of young people I know who are so talented and, you know, are heterodox or just independent-minded f- people, like liberals, they choose not to become public people.

    30. JR

      Right.

  8. 21:33 – 23:53

    Culture-war flashpoints: trans rights edge cases and the Jessica Yaniv waxing controversy

    1. JR

      You know one of my favorite stories when, uh, when... To speak to this, is that woman who was in Canada who was a trans woman who still has her penis and balls and went to, uh, a bunch of different waxing places-

    2. BW

      I don't know about this.

    3. JR

      You don't know about this?

    4. BW

      No.

    5. JR

      Closed down, these immigrant waxing places, because they wouldn't wax her male genitalia. And y-

    6. BW

      I missed this.

    7. JR

      It wound up going to court and she wound up losing, but these people lost their businesses. Their businesses ge-... You know, Canada's very different than United States. And they have these-

    8. BW

      Like, nicer?

    9. JR

      They're very nice.

    10. BW

      (laughs) Or-

    11. JR

      Like, 20% nicer.

    12. BW

      (laughs)

    13. JR

      But they also have weird human rights laws. Like, um, they have... You know, this is what Jordan Peterson was rallying against with these compelled speech laws. He was explaining it in a way that didn't make sense to us because we have freedom of speech in America, but they don't have freedom of speech in Canada. It's not that they don't have-

    14. BW

      Or, or in England. Yeah.

    15. JR

      Right. It's different. And with this woman, when she went to these places and was saying, "Hey, you know, you have to wax my, my dick and balls." And they were like, "No, we, we do Brazilian wax on women." And they're like, "You're a bigot." And then sh- she, she turned out to be a complete fucking lunatic. I mean, if you follow her in the news now, like, assaulting people and all sorts of other stuff.

    16. BW

      Right.

    17. JR

      But still biologically a man and has all the parts and they... This was, this was the line in the sand. This was like, "Okay. Here's your case. Now you've got one." Because this is not just about discrimination against a trans woman, and this is some new thing. This is the v- very real possibility that some trans people... Trans people are human, right? Some trans people are fucking crazy. You got one. Here, here you got one. Now, are you gonna treat this like an abusive, insane person or are you gonna treat this like trans people-

    18. BW

      Right.

    19. JR

      ... have these undeniable rights and privilege because of the fact that they've been put in this marginalized position by our society that you have to look at them in a very specific way, and if you deviate at all, you will be punished? And that's what happened to these poor imm- immigrants. They lost their business.

    20. BW

      I completely missed this story.

    21. JR

      Oh, it's a great story. Jessica Yaniv, I think, is-

    22. BW

      Where did you read this?

    23. JR

      ... his, her name. Oh, my God. Everywhere.

    24. BW

      It was not in The Times. (laughs)

    25. JR

      Well, The Times needs to step up.

    26. BW

      (laughs)

    27. JR

      You guys are covering-

    28. BW

      I missed it.

    29. JR

      ... Bernie and Andrew Yang and Eli-

    30. BW

      I missed it. I missed it. No, we're barely-

  9. 23:53 – 27:47

    Andrew Yang and the ‘Rogan effect’—then a hard swerve into circumcision and bodily autonomy

    1. JR

      Who do you like for president?

    2. BW

      Well, I just, I was just telling, um, Jamie that I was in... I spent New Year's in New Hampshire with Andrew Yang and the Yang Gang, because I'm writing about him.

    3. JR

      Right.

    4. BW

      And I have to tell you, like, and I'm really not just saying this, the power of the, like the, what I'm calling, like, the Rogan effect, it was insane. Like, I went down the line waiting to get into this bar, it was snowing outside, and I just, like, asked everybody, "How'd you hear about Andrew Yang?" Like, 80% of them was from your podcast. It was really unbelievable. Um, I like, I like his energy. I don't know if I agree with him on, like, I don't have strong views about UBI or what he calls the Freedom Dividend, $1,000 a month. I don't know what I think about that.

    5. JR

      No.

    6. BW

      He's like against circumci-... He has, like, all these views about things.

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. BW

      I don't really know if I agree with him on most of his things.

    9. JR

      Against circumcision, you don't agree with that?

    10. BW

      Uh, no.

    11. JR

      Really?

    12. BW

      Yeah. No, it's not-

    13. JR

      You cutting baby dicks?

    14. BW

      I'm not, like, passionate about that. Are you?

    15. JR

      Well, yeah, people lose their dicks, a lot of kids every year. Do you know children die from that?

    16. BW

      They lose their dicks?

    17. JR

      Children die... Yes, all the time. It's very common.

    18. BW

      Really?

    19. JR

      Yes. Like, multiple children per year lose their penis from an unnecessary, antiquated operation where you cut off their dicks to make it look different.

    20. BW

      Okay.

    21. JR

      You're cutting skin off of their dick, and they wind up getting infected and they lose their dicks. It's, I mean, it doesn't happen all the time.

    22. BW

      Uh-huh.

    23. JR

      But it happens enough time where you go, "This should never happen. This is a completely unnecessary operation." Robert Baker estimates-

    24. BW

      Oh, is this like in-

    25. JR

      ... 229 deaths per year from circumcision in the United States. Bollinger estimates that apparently approximately 119 infant boys die from circumcision-related each year in the US, 1.3% of all male neonatal deaths from all causes. There are several case reports of death in the medical literature. Yeah. This, it's not simple. You're cutting skin. Skin is an organ. You're, you, you have an unnecessary, and I'm circumcised, you have an unnecessary operation that you're doing to an infant, and it's decorative.

    26. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JR

      And I, I had a joke about it, but-

    28. BW

      And you don't buy any of the studies about how it prevents STDs and da-da-da...

    29. JR

      No. No, I don't.

    30. BW

      Okay.

  10. 27:47 – 31:59

    Vaccines, religious exemptions, and conspiracy thinking: from measles to ‘everything is a setup’

    1. BW

      Now I'm nervous to talk to you about vaccines. I hope you're for them.

    2. JR

      I'm for vaccines.

    3. BW

      Okay.

    4. JR

      100%. Yeah. Why would you be nervous to talk to me about that?

    5. BW

      I don't know.

    6. JR

      That's science.

    7. BW

      Because I'm like, "What am I stumbling into here?"

    8. JR

      No. Look, vaccines are established sci-... I had P- Dr. Peter Hotez on, who is, uh-

    9. BW

      Who's that?

    10. JR

      He's, um, he's out of the University of Texas. University of Houston, is that what he's from? Um, but what he's famous for is, uh, treating and making people aware of tropical illnesses and-

    11. BW

      Okay.

    12. JR

      ... and, and vaccine safety and vaccine health. And, uh, and, and also just someone who uses education to dispel a lot of these anti-vax-

    13. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. JR

      ... rumors and the, the, the anti-vax movement, to try to explain, like, the, this is why there's so many people, this is why we're so healthy, this is why there's no smallpox, this is why we, we haven't had these fucking horrific diseases-

    15. BW

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      ... ravage... This is why measles is making a comeback, because of ignorance. So, no.

    17. BW

      And because there's this unbelievably strange coalition of like lefty Waldorf family homeschool people with like ultra-Orthodox Jews who believe that there's like remnants of pigs in the vaccine and they're coming together to do what they just did in New Jersey, which is like, they were... I think New Jersey was close to passing a law to end the religious... You know, there's religious exemptions for vaccines in a bunch of states still.

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. BW

      And New Jersey was very close to, uh, which has had a bunch of outbreaks, to ending the religious exemption. And then you had these like very strange bed felo- fellows come together and lobby against the law and it lost, which is really upsetting. Like, I do not think there should be a religious exemption for vaccines.

    20. JR

      Yeah, vaccines are a strange one, right? It's like, should you force someone to put a chemical into their body?

    21. BW

      Yes, because it's protecting-

    22. JR

      Yes.

    23. BW

      ... all of our lives.

    24. JR

      Right. But that is why it's, that's why it's an interesting one.

    25. BW

      Yes.

    26. JR

      It's a very unusual one, because it's a very rare time where you're, you're talking about something that if you do put it in someone's body and it is effective, it will stop a deadly pandemic from spreading.

    27. BW

      Yes.

    28. JR

      So, how do we act as a community? How do we act as a culture when it comes to that? And then there's also, with everything, there's c-... People think there's conspiracies with every fucking thing that ever happens on this Earth. Conor McGregor just destroyed Donald Cerrone in 40 seconds. There is an entire community of people on ri- online right now thinking that that was a setup and that it was a fake fight and that they had planned it all in advance and this is j- just to make money. I mean, I mean, I'm talking about volumes of writing. I mean, people are just page after page after page talking about things that don't make sense about the fight. And like, this is just what people do. They look for conspiracies in everything, whether it's vaccines or politics or, or, or-

    29. BW

      Or Jews.

    30. JR

      Or Jews.

  11. 31:59 – 41:45

    2020 candidate talk: Bernie’s consistency, Tulsi’s anti-war appeal, Warren’s DNA missteps, and media incentives

    1. BW

      Liked him. I don't know, and then I also feel like I've gone on this emotional journey with Biden, where at first I'm like, tote- like, I liked him, then I'm like, "Ugh, he's old. He's kinda losing it. No way he can win." And now I feel like I've gone back to maybe liking Biden.

    2. JR

      Let me put you back on track, 'cause he's way too old.

    3. BW

      I know.

    4. JR

      It's not just that he's too old. He's not coherent. He's falling apart.

    5. BW

      I know. I know.

    6. JR

      Like, hasn't he had a stroke or something? Has h-

    7. BW

      I don't know if he's had a stroke.

    8. JR

      He's had-

    9. BW

      He's had a lot of plastic surgery, that's for sure.

    10. JR

      Has he?

    11. BW

      Look at his face.

    12. JR

      He's like, "Grr."

    13. BW

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Trying to look younger. Um-

    15. BW

      And the caps, and I don't know, but, but he-

    16. JR

      But he has, like, blood pressure issues, right?

    17. BW

      Okay, here's ... It doesn't matter, who I think is gonna ... I think the candidate ... I will be very surprised if the candidate is not Bernie, both because of the fundraising and because of where he is in the polls and because, and this is the most fundamental thing, the, the energy in the country right now is a populist energy. And I just don't think that a moderate, like the ones that I like, like a Klobuchar or a Biden, can capture that, the energy of the base. I think it, I think that energy is just really with Bernie.

    18. JR

      Do you have more faith in-

    19. BW

      What do you think?

    20. JR

      ... the Democratic Party than I do. I think they're gonna fuck up and put Elizabeth Warren in. And I think Tr-

    21. BW

      Oh my God. Well, there's-

    22. JR

      ... Trump, Trump's gonna chew her up.

    23. BW

      Don't you think Trump would ... Okay, but if it's Bernie verse Trump-

    24. JR

      Yes.

    25. BW

      ... who wins? 'Cause I think Trump still wins.

    26. JR

      I think w- you're always gonna have a hard time when someone's the incumbent, right? You're always gonna have a hard time when someone is the sitting president, who is extremely controversial, extremely pol- polarizing, but also, we're in a great time economically. That's, that's hard for people to deviate from. It's hard for people to deviate from good economy. When you look at the stock market, when you look at-

    27. BW

      Yeah, but most people-

    28. JR

      ... I mean, it's obviously-

    29. BW

      ... don't have stocks.

    30. JR

      No, it's true, but-

  12. 41:45 – 57:55

    Native American history detour: Comanches, Cynthia Ann Parker, and why Warren’s claim hits a nerve

    1. JR

      have strong natural resources. I mean, uh, I've been ... I'm on my fifth book in the last three months on Native Americans.

    2. BW

      Wow.

    3. JR

      Yeah. I, I became obsessed. I-

    4. BW

      What got you obsessed?

    5. JR

      Empire of the Summer Moon.

    6. BW

      Okay.

    7. JR

      It's, uh, a book, um, on the Comanches, and it is fucking incredible. It's incredible when you realize like that this was going on in this country just 150 years ago, and that for hundreds of years, the Comanches just dominated the West. They dominated the plains, and until they invented a gun that could shoot more than one bullet, uh, w- the, the white men were fucked. The Comanches would just dominate them 'cause they could shoot arrow after arrow, and they were just a ferocious people.

    8. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JR

      They didn't ... No artwork, no beadwork. They just, they just made-

    10. BW

      (laughs)

    11. JR

      ... teepees, like they-

    12. BW

      Beadwork? (laughs)

    13. JR

      Really, they weren't ... They, they didn't have like illustrious like works of art and beautiful c- what, what ... The Comanches were a war people.

    14. BW

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      They, they raided, they hunted, they ate mostly meat. All they ate was meat. They, they barely ... They didn't farm. They didn't do any farming. They just roamed around and killed buffalo and just dominated the entire western half of this country for hundreds and hundreds of years, 'cause they were the first ones to figure out how to ride horses.

    16. BW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      They were the first ones to not just r- figure out how to ride horses, but to, to raise horses. Animal husbandry, they, they, they figured out how to accumulate large stables of horses and ride them better than anybody could.

    18. GV

      I need to read this.

    19. JR

      Oh, it's fucking amazing. It's- it's amazing.

    20. GV

      It sounds amazing.

    21. JR

      It's so good. It's such a good book, and horrific. Do you see that woman out there that's on the wall? The- outside? The- the-

    22. GV

      No.

    23. JR

      ... N- Native American woman that's breastfeeding a woman, a baby?

    24. GV

      Oh my God, I thought you were talking about a real woman-

    25. JR

      No, no, no.

    26. GV

      ... in the painting.

    27. JR

      There's a ... No, it's a photograph of Cynthia Ann Parker.

    28. GV

      Mm.

    29. JR

      Cynthia Ann Parker was ... She was abducted by the Comanches when she was nine years old, and then became accepted as a part of the tribe, and then went on to be the wife of the major chief, one of the major Comanche chiefs. And then was kidnapped back by the United States when she was 30, but she didn't want to be in the United States because her whole li- or k- by- by-

    30. GV

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  13. 57:55 – 1:01:19

    Break-room chatter: Bari’s bathroom break, Curb clips, Weinstein’s walker, and the Epstein pivot

    1. JR

      Yeah. Let's, let's talk about your book.

    2. BW

      Okay, I-

    3. JR

      Unless you want more.

    4. BW

      No, I so wanna talk about my book.

    5. JR

      But-

    6. BW

      I have to pee very bad.

    7. JR

      Go pee. Go pee. (laughs)

    8. GV

      (laughs)

    9. BW

      (laughs) Sorry.

    10. JR

      No worries, no worries.

    11. GV

      Okay. Does it matter that, uh, for the, uh-

    12. JR

      We'll be here. Don't worry, don't worry. We're good, we're good.

    13. GV

      ... that Bernie/Elizabeth Warren stuff was started, I believe, as a report on CNN the day before they hosted that debate as just maybe a way to drum up ratings, which it did work-

    14. JR

      Could be.

    15. GV

      ... 'cause the ratings were higher than like the previous two or three?

    16. JR

      Yeah, but like people love controversy, man. People love it. They get excited. Look, half of this stuff is so goddamn boring and so hard to follow. When someone calls you a liar and they're like, "I am not a liar!" Like, yes, now we got something. Now we got something juicy we can sink our teeth into.

    17. GV

      I was also gonna ask if you saw any of the Curb stuff from last night?

    18. JR

      No.

    19. GV

      It was great.

    20. JR

      Yeah. Well, he's always great.

    21. GV

      I mean, like, Larry's wear- he's wearing a MAGA hat-

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. GV

      ... just to get rid of people so you have to like eat lunch with them and shit.

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. GV

      They realized it would work.

    26. JR

      (gasps) He's genius, man. I would, I'd like to get him in here. I love him. I love Larry David. Man, he's the, really one of the big reasons why Seinfeld was so successful.

    27. GV

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    28. JR

      It was such a great show. He's, uh, he's a special character. You know that guy really does fucking drive a Prius apparently?

    29. GV

      Hmm.

    30. JR

      He's probably worth $500 million.

  14. 1:01:19 – 1:13:49

    Jeffrey Epstein: murder suspicions, elite complicity, and how the press gets overwhelmed

    1. JR

      Can we just agree that he was murdered?

    2. BW

      Y- I think that he was murdered. (laughs)

    3. JR

      If you had, if you had all your chips on the table-

    4. BW

      Yes.

    5. JR

      ... like, "Barry, you gotta go all in. What are you gonna do?"

    6. BW

      There are too many coincidences-

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. BW

      ... to make it plausible that Jeffrey Epstein...... like, the video. I mean, we could go down the line.

    9. JR

      Yes.

    10. BW

      I'm sure you guys are like, (laughs) Jeffrey Epstein truthers-

    11. JR

      Oh, deep.

    12. BW

      ... in here. You guys are fucking deep.

    13. JR

      We're deep.

    14. BW

      I'm not even gonna try.

    15. JR

      We're all in.

    16. BW

      W- uh, it's something that I followed not as closely as you have.

    17. JR

      Remind me after the show.

    18. BW

      But the li- but the little bit that I followed it makes me incredibly suspicious of the official story. Yes.

    19. JR

      Remind me after the show. I could tell you off the air some crazy shit.

    20. BW

      Why don't you tell me now?

    21. JR

      I can't. Can't.

    22. BW

      Why?

    23. JR

      'Cause I'll tell you after the show, and you'll understand.

    24. BW

      Okay, I'm excited.

    25. JR

      But yeah, the- the- the thing is so- it's so bizarre. And it's like they're hoping that the news cycle somehow or another buries it. And then just like, "Oh, he's gone. He's gone. Let's get some other-" Look, Iran is a problem! We're going to war! Look at this!

    26. BW

      Okay. Well, it is a problem. (laughs)

    27. JR

      Oh, we gotta look. It is, it is a problem. But, uh-

    28. BW

      Yeah, like Soleimani. (laughs)

    29. JR

      ... it's almost like we've stopped talking about Jeffrey Epstein, but he's clearly been murdered. He clearly was the guy who was in some way, shape, or form a part of a gigantic ring where you would get underage girls to these pedophiles or public figures who were interested in having sex with 16-year-old girls, and-

    30. BW

      Oh. Well, that's the part that's known.

Episode duration: 2:33:43

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