Joe Rogan Experience #1427 - Melissa Chen

1. 0:01 – 2:11

   Singapore’s harsh justice system: caning, hanging, and drug penalties

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      What's up, Melissa? How are you?

   2. MCMelissa Chen0:02

      Hello, Joe.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      We were just talking about caning and hanging in Singapore.

   4. MCMelissa Chen0:06

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Hanging now, is that the new one?

   6. MCMelissa Chen0:08

      No, it's always been-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      That's how they always do it?

   8. MCMelissa Chen0:09

      I mean, caning is one of the forms of capital punishment, but they, they still, they actually hang for drugs.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      What is Singapore like? I've never been. It seems like a strange place, 'cause it's relatively wealthy, right?

   10. MCMelissa Chen0:22

       Yes, very much so.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       And upscale and very nice, but also ruthless.

   12. MCMelissa Chen0:27

       But you know what happened in, like, my generation? I've witnessed it go from third world to first world in my lifetime.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       Really?

   14. MCMelissa Chen0:33

       Yeah, yeah. So it's one of those success stories of nation building. Um, but it's, it's kind of like, you know those snow globes, the perfect snow globes-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah.

   16. MCMelissa Chen0:43

       ... with the, yeah, when you, like, turn it over and, like, everything kind of sprinkles? That's what it feels like living in Singapore. For me, at least. I, I had to get out. It's just, it's a bit sterile. It's perfect, but it's too perfect. It's almost like, there's a, somebody called it once Disneyland with the death penalty.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       (laughs)

   18. MCMelissa Chen0:57

       Which is a pretty good description.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       And you get the death penalty for things like drugs, right?

   20. MCMelissa Chen1:01

       Just possession past, like, maybe 25 grams or 25 milligrams or something, marijuana trafficking.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       So if you have an ounce of marijuana, how many grams is in an ounce?

   22. MCMelissa Chen1:11

       What's the conversion? I don't know. I, I haven't converted to-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       20?

   24. MCMelissa Chen1:15

       Your system.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       28. 28 grams in an ounce? Yeah, 28. So, like, an, an ounce is a good amount of weed, but two ounces of weed, you're dead?

   26. MCMelissa Chen1:22

       Yep.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       Oof.

   28. MCMelissa Chen1:24

       Yeah. By hanging.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       Oof.

   30. MCMelissa Chen1:26

       Yeah.
2. 2:11 – 3:49

   How Singapore became a “snow globe” success story under Lee Kuan Yew

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:11

      How did it go from third world to first world so quickly?

   2. MCMelissa Chen2:14

      Um, I guess the founder, you know, of the country, well, not the founder, the founding prime minister, uh, Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, was probably one of the world's most famous modern statesmen. Um, he, he was resolute, like, you know, weeded out corruption. He was kind of, like, very, very tight controls on free speech, but very much a, a sort of, um, neoliberal economic policies.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:38

      Hmm.

   4. MCMelissa Chen2:38

      So it attracted a lot of foreign investment, right? Because the highest income tax bracket is, like, maybe 13%. It's very low. Um, there's almost no welfare, um, at least in, in the sense of, uh, how we understand welfare. But there's a lot of ... It's a hybrid system, so there's, there's a lot of, uh, like, zero capital gains taxes, zero state taxes. Very easy to set up a business. So he had managed to attract a lot of, um, foreign businesses to set up their multinational corporation headquarters in Asia, because the other alternative would be maybe China.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:09

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MCMelissa Chen3:10

      But China would probably end up stealing all your (laughs) you know, your, your, your corporate secrets, your-

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:15

      Yeah.

   8. MCMelissa Chen3:15

      ... intellectual property. But Singapore was billed as, "This is the country that protects rule of law."

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:21

      Mm.

   10. MCMelissa Chen3:21

       Also, English. He kind of made everybody, um, speak English with the working language. So if you wanted to set up business in Asia, that was your place to go.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:31

       Oh, okay.

   12. MCMelissa Chen3:31

       You got to, like, you know, if you, if you want to attract investment, you have to say, like, "Okay, what's in my, what's in my region? And how can I be, how can I have a competitive advantage?" So that was, that was how Singapore really, uh, developed and, and, you know, just gained a lot of traction as a state, city state.

3. 3:49 – 7:23

   Pop-culture perceptions of Singapore and Melissa’s public voice online

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:49

      The average American knows Singapore because of that kid that got caned. (laughs)

   2. MCMelissa Chen3:53

      Now it's that stupid movie.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:55

      Which movie?

   4. MCMelissa Chen3:56

      Ugh, The Crazy Rich Asians. (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:57

      Oh, Crazy Rich Asians, right, right.

   6. MCMelissa Chen3:59

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:59

      I never saw that. Was it good?

   8. MCMelissa Chen4:02

      Uh, I didn't like it, 'cause I don't like rom-coms.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:06

      Oh, okay.

   10. MCMelissa Chen4:06

       And like, come on, the premise is like a girl is d- an American Asian girl is, like, dating this guy from Singapore. He, she doesn't know he's rich, and she finds out on the plane there. It's like the most bullshit thing.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:18

       (laughs)

   12. MCMelissa Chen4:18

       It's just conspicuous consumption. I mean, it's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:21

       Hmm.

   14. MCMelissa Chen4:21

       ... it's got some, you know, the city looks beautiful, and in fact, I kind of grew up with some people that, that lived that lifestyle. Um, but I, I just don't like that kind of movie. It's, it's, it's a chick flick.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:35

       A chick flick.

   16. MCMelissa Chen4:36

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:36

       Got it. You're not into chick flicks. Your Instagram is hilarious, by the way.

   18. MCMelissa Chen4:39

       Instagram?

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:40

       It's very, excuse me.

   20. MCMelissa Chen4:41

       I don't have Twittergram.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       Twitter, your Twitter.

   22. MCMelissa Chen4:42

       Okay.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:43

       I get them confused sometimes. Your Twitter feed is really good.

   24. MCMelissa Chen4:47

       I try to-

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:47

       And it's just both insightful, but also very funny.

   26. MCMelissa Chen4:50

       Yeah, I try to play both sides. But the problem is, like, you know, I think, I think today, there's a bit of a, um, if you're, if you're a girl and you're, you're kind of funny, there, there's a bit of a sense that, like, people don't really take you that seriously. So I've been told to tone it down on, on jokes.

   27. JRJoe Rogan5:05

       Who's telling you that?

   28. MCMelissa Chen5:06

       Well, I'm also, you know, I run, I run a-

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:08

       Yes.

   30. MCMelissa Chen5:09

       ... major nonprofit organization, and, and-
4. 7:23 – 1:14:37

   Energy-drink detour: caffeine overload, THC tolerance, and drug policy talk

   1. MCMelissa Chen7:23

      just kind of controls everything. Sorry, give me a second. My heart rate is like, so high (laughs) because I've been drinking so much.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:28

      Because you've been drinking this stuff? Is that what it is?

   3. MCMelissa Chen7:31

      Bang. Yeah. Sorry, just hand me a second.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:31

      I was worried that you were nervous.

   5. MCMelissa Chen7:33

      No, no, no, no, no, no.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:33

      So let's tell everybody what you're drinking.

   7. MCMelissa Chen7:35

      Oh my God, I'm sorry.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:35

      You're drinking this... It's called Bang. How many did you have?

   9. MCMelissa Chen7:37

      This is my second one.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:38

       You weigh eight pounds.

   11. NANarrator7:40

       (laughs)

   12. MCMelissa Chen7:40

       I don't.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:40

       The fuck are you doing?

   14. MCMelissa Chen7:41

       I don't, sorry.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:42

       You're so tiny. This is so much.

   16. MCMelissa Chen7:44

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       Are you gonna-

   18. MCMelissa Chen7:46

       I know, I know.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:46

       Are you gonna be the first person to die on this show?

   20. MCMelissa Chen7:48

       No, no. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:49

       Please don't.

   22. MCMelissa Chen7:50

       Sorry. I mean, this stuff is like...

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:53

       Yeah, put it away.

   24. MCMelissa Chen7:53

       It's got a lot of caffeine and like-

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:54

       Stop fucking with it.

   26. MCMelissa Chen7:55

       Sorry, it was my second one. I had like, a really heavy workout.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:57

       You can't have second ones of those. You, you probably weigh like, 80 pounds. Like, seriously.

   28. MCMelissa Chen8:02

       105.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:02

       Come on, stop lying.

   30. MCMelissa Chen8:03

       105 pounds, yeah. No, I got, I got muscle.
5. 16:22 – 23:10

   Censorship, monoculture, and the personal cost of asking questions

   1. MCMelissa Chen16:22

      So monoculture because of, you know, society is, they, they have religions, they have ways of life that are just so deeply entrenched, right? Um, and then you also have a c- really, really heavy censorship, both from your authoritarian government and also from your religion.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:36

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MCMelissa Chen16:37

      Um, you know, the, the first word, for example, the first word in the Quran is actually read.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:41

      Really?

   5. MCMelissa Chen16:42

      But it, they really mean just read this one thing.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:45

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MCMelissa Chen16:45

      And, uh, you know, just the, the sort of like habits of a free mind are not really cultivated, um, and also when you're taught, I mean, growing up not to question things. And in part I understand because, um, I think when you grow up in an Asian household with like, you know, tighter parents, there's this sense of like, "You don't question my authority," you know? So it, it permeates culture from a very, very young age, and imagine like if you kind of grow up in that environment, you're going to internalize all those things, and that's why y- it kind of, you know, it, it follows you over time. So when you're in school, you're taught no questions, it's this...

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:23

      Yeah.

   9. MCMelissa Chen17:23

      It's not like here where it is like, "There's no such thing as a stupid question, Chad."

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:27

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MCMelissa Chen17:27

       There are in Asia, like, "You're dumb." (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:29

       There's definitely stupid questions over here too.

   13. MCMelissa Chen17:31

       But you're told, you're at least told that you're, you-

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:33

       We're giving Chad a break.

   15. MCMelissa Chen17:34

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:35

       Yeah. But I, I, I understand what you're saying, and that must be really interesting for you to go from this one fairly restrictive environment to a fairly open environment.

   17. MCMelissa Chen17:45

       Correct.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:45

       And d- did that shift that happened in you and being exposed to all these different ide- did that spark this-... desire to help other people sort of expand their, their, their ideas and what they're exposed to?

   19. MCMelissa Chen17:58

       Yeah, because, well, I felt like a fish out of water-

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:00

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MCMelissa Chen18:00

       ... growing up in Singapore. I was always the person that, like, the teachers had to call, like, you know, "Your daughter's asking too many questions. She's disrupting the class."

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:07

       What kind of questions?

   23. MCMelissa Chen18:08

       (sighs) I don't know. I went to Sunday school too. I was like, I was that kid who was just like, "Uh, you know, excuse me, but why, why do the dinosaurs, uh, wh- why is it in the Bible that the dinosaurs and, and, and human beings walked, you know, basically, like, days apart, when, like, we know from science that, you know, it was millions of years?" And fossils and-

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       Did they get mad at you?

   25. MCMelissa Chen18:28

       Of course, of course, yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:29

       (laughs)

   27. MCMelissa Chen18:29

       No, they were like, "Just keep her out of... We'd just rather her not come to Sunday school."

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:34

       Really?

   29. MCMelissa Chen18:34

       Yeah, yeah. But-

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       No, no answers? There was no one that tried to, like, sort it through and say, "Listen, must be that God was, uh, testing people and, uh, this is why..."
6. 23:10 – 25:29

   Digital authoritarianism and the China model: “China Dream” vs “American Dream”

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:10

      Did, um... So there was a shift in China, and the shift was... It was initially a completely communist society, and now, capitalism, at least in a monetary sense, is embraced.

   2. MCMelissa Chen23:26

      Yeah, market reforms, yes.

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:27

      And so... Yes. So there's this giant shift in what China actually is, which corresponds to this huge growth. Is it possible that, in the future, this shift could move on to other aspects of Chinese culture, like discourse or the way they view the government or even some form of democracy?

   4. MCMelissa Chen23:48

      That was what we expected.

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:50

      That's what we expected.

   6. MCMelissa Chen23:51

      Um, that was the theory.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:53

      Yeah.

   8. MCMelissa Chen23:53

      But, but-... the, the way China has behaved now, you know, they call it socialism with Chinese characteristics.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:58

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MCMelissa Chen23:59

       That's the official name of, of, of this long drawn game to, you know, institute market reforms, usher in, uh, riches for the, for the middle class, lift a lot of people out of poverty, but in a very controlled way, in, in a way that's like... See, that's the thing about like Asian culture that people don't understand, it's that the- there's a fundamental difference between the China dream and the American dream, right? And, and Xi Jinping has outlined what he thinks is the China dream. It's, it's, it's basically a top down way to, to, uh, it's a goal, it's a national goal, and, and basically what they're trying to say is that, "Okay, we're gonna get, lift a lot of people out of poverty, but you have to, your generation has to make sacrifices." So it's not about the individual. It's about building a strong China and implicitly also about, uh, you know, ensuring that the CCP stays in power, the Chinese Communist Party stays in power. But it's, it's that you might have to give up, you know, personal sacrifices for the sake of China. Versus the American dream is, is bottom up. It's about your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's it. And if you do that, that's the American dream. And if you achieve a certain level of happiness, if you achieve, you know, it's all like, it's bottom up. It's not, it's not centralized and it's not something that the Chinese government is kind of trying to stuff down your throat. Um, and China's willing to play the long game. So it is still a c- Leninist, Leninist Marxist government. Xi Jinping still believes in all of that, that's

7. 25:29 – 31:09

   IP theft, academia influence, and Huawei as the new ‘Sputnik’ moment

   1. MCMelissa Chen25:29

      why it's still so totalitarian. But it's, you know, they, they know that like, the way to get, gain power in the world is to get rich. And they did it on some, you know, on the backs of, on the back of trade with other countries, through very unfair practices actually, in many cases. So if you think about like how they... I think there, there are a lot of estimates of how much they've actually stolen from the United States in terms of intellectual property, um, corporate, corporate espionage, um, now even like academia's being infected. So...

   2. JRJoe Rogan26:00

      How so?

   3. MCMelissa Chen26:01

      They just arrested the head of the chemistry department at Harvard.

   4. JRJoe Rogan26:06

      Oh, that's right.

   5. MCMelissa Chen26:07

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan26:08

      Yeah. But wasn't that, didn't they think that that guy was in connection with some weaponized... What's that article?

   7. MCMelissa Chen26:15

      Oh, the virus thing?

   8. JRJoe Rogan26:16

      Yeah.

   9. MCMelissa Chen26:16

      No, no, no, no. That, that's-

   10. JRJoe Rogan26:17

       Am I thinking of something else?

   11. MCMelissa Chen26:19

       There was, uh, an article linking some Canadian researchers to the virus.

   12. JRJoe Rogan26:24

       That's right, that's what it was.

   13. MCMelissa Chen26:24

       No, but this was, this was different. The head of the, the chemistry department at Harvard was found to have lied about receiving money from the Chinese government. So there's this program-

   14. JRJoe Rogan26:33

       Hmm.

   15. MCMelissa Chen26:33

       ... called the Thousand Talents Program in China. Basically, they're offering a lot of money. The New York Times did a really good expose on this. Um, they basically offer money to like academics, because, you know, it kind of sucks to be one here in the sense of like, you're not paid that well.

   16. JRJoe Rogan26:48

       Right.

   17. MCMelissa Chen26:48

       But China's dangling like, a lot more money and saying, "Okay, If you, if you do research here in China, um, there's going to be like, less bureaucracy."

   18. JRJoe Rogan26:56

       Mm-hmm.

   19. MCMelissa Chen26:57

       Um, so that's their way to lure these people in, right?

   20. JRJoe Rogan26:59

       So he was hiding the fact that he was getting income from them?

   21. MCMelissa Chen27:02

       He was hiding. Correct, correct.

   22. JRJoe Rogan27:02

       How was he hiding it?

   23. MCMelissa Chen27:04

       He just, he didn't report it.

   24. JRJoe Rogan27:06

       Oh.

   25. MCMelissa Chen27:07

       And...

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:07

       But he put it in the bank anyway?

   27. MCMelissa Chen27:09

       Right. And, and so at the end of the day when, when, when you do, when, when there's a relationship there, China owns your research.

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:14

       Right.

   29. MCMelissa Chen27:15

       And if you're researching something sensitive, that's a big issue.

   30. JRJoe Rogan27:18

       There was an article today, uh, where they've confirmed that Huawei has some sort of third party back door with a lot of their electronics.
8. 31:09 – 42:57

   Hollywood, the NBA, and corporate capitulation to China’s red lines

   1. MCMelissa Chen31:09

      And if you think about what happened with the NBA, um, you know, with the whole Daryl More tweet and-

   2. JRJoe Rogan31:14

      Yeah, explain that, because that was shocking to me, 'cause the way they were capitulating to China, I was, you know, I was a little stunned.

   3. MCMelissa Chen31:22

      Me too.

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:22

      'Cause it was so open.

   5. MCMelissa Chen31:23

      Yeah, and-

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:24

      Can you explain what happened?

   7. MCMelissa Chen31:26

      So Daryl More, who is the GM of the Houston Rockets, he tweeted out, um, basically a, a little picture that, that showed that he supported the Hong Kong protestors. And the Hong Kong protestors have been at it since July of last year, 2019. Um, they w- have been protesting the incursion of, of Chinese control into their supposedly autonomous region. China promised them that there would be, um, two systems, one country, two systems, after the handover in 1997 from the British to, to, to China. Um, they've slowly kind of eroded that, um, in w- in many ways. And their freedoms have been kind of, you know, diminishing over time. The straw, the straw that broke the camel's back was actually this policy that they passed, this law they passed that said that anyone can be extradited to China for trials basically. It was after a case that happened, a criminal case. And the Hong Kong people knew that h- this law, if it goes in effect, basically gives the Chinese government legal right to disappear or kidnap anyone and bring them for trial in some sort of kangaroo c- or show trial in, in, in China and that has happened. So booksellers, it's always the booksellers, in Hong Kong have been kidnapped because they were publishing these like insider accounts, like dirty secrets of the, you know, the CCP, whenever there was a leak, 'cause the, the Chinese Communist Party is huge. The Politburo is huge. And so there was a bookseller called Causeway Books and they were publishing all these like accounts from within the, the Chinese Communist Party and the owner of that bookshop one day just disappeared. And he ended up in China, um, it was basically a forced kidnapping and he, he was released, I think he was, you know, he, he did his jail time and now he's setting up another booksh- bookshop in Taiwan. Um, but, but that law basically would just have allowed China to do that legally this time. So the Hong Kong youth were up in arms. They, you know, they, they were tired of all their, the ways that their way of life had changed since the British handed, handed it over, and al- you know, in, in a way they were kind of pining for the good old times, the good old times when they were under colonial, you know, an English colonial master, which was one of those like poof moment for anyone on the left.

   8. JRJoe Rogan33:43

      Mm.

   9. MCMelissa Chen33:45

      Um, (smacks lips) and so Daryl More tweeted this out and of course you know how big the, the China market is for the NBA, right? Like all these players have contracts with them. In fact the Houston Rockets had a lot of contracts with the Chinese CCTV for broadcasts, um, they also had like merchandising opportunities, sneakers that were made there. And, um, (smacks lips) that caused a huge, huge outcry in China. They were just like, "Oh, he's disrespecting us," um, and they were able to force him to basically make a groveling tweet that said, "Oh, I'm sorry for hurting the feelings of the Chinese people." And then like all the other, some NBA players actually came out and, and, you know, kind of took the side of the, of the Chinese government, like, "Oh wait, who are we to-"

   10. JRJoe Rogan34:32

       Yeah.

   11. MCMelissa Chen34:32

       ... you know, they, they kind of like did this backpedal thing when, when they're so strong on other forms of activism here, like, like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan34:38

       Yeah.

   13. MCMelissa Chen34:38

       ... the NBA when it came to the North Carolina, the bathroom bill, you remember? Like the transgender bathroom bill?

   14. JRJoe Rogan34:43

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MCMelissa Chen34:43

       They were, they were always on the side of the woke. (smacks lips) But then when it came to the China/Hong Kong issue, they stood with the biggest... The, the oppressor.

   16. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       Yeah, it's always hard when someone does side on the woke, like what are you, are you doing this 'cause you think this or are you doing this 'cause you think it'll make people think more highly of you if you do it? It's such a contrived thing today. It's so difficult to figure out why people are acting the way they're acting. So when they were acting in that way, it was so transparent.

   17. MCMelissa Chen35:16

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:16

       It was, there was no ifs, ands, or buts about it, like they were pressured and they were worried about the money, they were worried about economic, you know-

   19. MCMelissa Chen35:23

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan35:24

       ... whatever-

   21. MCMelissa Chen35:24

       The fallout.

   22. JRJoe Rogan35:25

       Yeah, whatever fallout would happen.

   23. MCMelissa Chen35:27

       Yeah, right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan35:27

       It was really obvious. It was like, "Whoa, this is not like trans people using the bathroom." This is like, "You guys are threatened."

   25. MCMelissa Chen35:35

       Right, exactly.

   26. JRJoe Rogan35:36

       Yeah.

   27. MCMelissa Chen35:36

       But the number of companies that have kowtowed to China's, uh, you know, orthodoxy is, there should be a list, somebody should be keeping track of all of this. Um, there are companies like Marriott, uh, even like luxury brands, so I think Versace or Dolce & Gabbana got in trouble because I think on their website they listed like countries...... that, um, were in. And it was like, they put Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan-

   28. JRJoe Rogan36:02

       That's right.

   29. MCMelissa Chen36:02

       ... and China said, "No, no, no. What are you doing? This is all China."

   30. JRJoe Rogan36:06

       Right.
9. 42:57 – 46:45

   Cold War dynamics, Hong Kong’s timeline, and alliances around Uyghur repression

   1. MCMelissa Chen42:57

      Um, we're definitely in the f- in a cold war right now with China-

   2. JRJoe Rogan43:02

      Yeah.

   3. MCMelissa Chen43:02

      ... it feels. But, you know, China does have military ambitions. I mean, the, the, their actions in the South China Sea have shown that. They, they do want to be at least militarily strong. They haven't, you know, to their credit, haven't taken any, um... They didn't go into Hong Kong with tanks or anything, right? So, no bloodshed o- on that account yet. Um, but it's one of those things also that in 2047, Hong Kong is going to return to China fully anyway.

   4. JRJoe Rogan43:30

      Oh, it is? It's this year?

   5. MCMelissa Chen43:30

      So, they're willing... Yeah, 2047, 'cause the handover, it was only, like, four or 50 years before. This is just the transition. So-

   6. JRJoe Rogan43:37

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MCMelissa Chen43:38

      ... the long game belongs to China, and they know that. They know that.

   8. JRJoe Rogan43:43

      Oof, this is not good.

   9. MCMelissa Chen43:45

      It's not. It's not.

   10. JRJoe Rogan43:48

       And there's no hope in your eyes of China eventually becoming what they hoped it would be once capitalism was sort of introduced?

   11. MCMelissa Chen43:56

       If people got information, if there were ways to resist the encroaching, um, tyranny, especially digital tyranny, right? The, in all forms, so it's not just mass surveillance. All this AI stuff, they're, they're sort of, like, collecting people's, uh, like, facial scans.

   12. JRJoe Rogan44:14

       Yeah.

   13. MCMelissa Chen44:15

       It's, it's this, it's such a dystopian nightmare. It feels like it's, like, a science fiction film, frankly. Um, if... I don't know. Unless the revolution kind of comes from within and enough people woke up, maybe it can be averted. But, uh, you know, otherwise, we're just gonna, you know, it's gonna be headed to it's this weird bipolar world where there's a new axis and the new allies.

   14. JRJoe Rogan44:43

       That sucks.

   15. MCMelissa Chen44:44

       That will suck.

   16. JRJoe Rogan44:44

       That sucks already.

   17. MCMelissa Chen44:45

       'Cause you've seen-

   18. JRJoe Rogan44:46

       Sucks already if it's happening.

   19. MCMelissa Chen44:47

       ... you've seen, like, there are, you know, Russia has taken the side of China, Pakistan has taken the s- side of China now.

   20. JRJoe Rogan44:52

       Yeah.

   21. MCMelissa Chen44:52

       So, there are, there, there is a, you know, an a- an alliance kind of forming. Um, you can see it in, you know, what happened with, uh, the UN passed this resolution condemning China's treatment of the Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang.

   22. JRJoe Rogan45:05

       Yeah.

   23. MCMelissa Chen45:05

       And the signatories to that, um, to that bill, that UN bill was basically, um, United States, New Zealand, the Europe, a lot of European powers. The so-called, you know, like, these are countries that are often accused of being Islamophobes because they won't accept Muslim refugees, or that many Muslim refugees. But you have Pakistan and even some, you know, majority of the Gulf countries siding with China, defending China on, on their treatment with, with the Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang. And it's one of those things that's just like, "What? Pff. How, how is this happening?" You know? It doesn't make sense.

   24. JRJoe Rogan45:41

       Does anybody have a road map of how they expect all this to play out?

   25. MCMelissa Chen45:47

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan45:47

       Because it seems that this, this could be a real problem in the future, and most Americans up until this whole, um, the, uh, up until this trade issue with the Trump administration, most Americans didn't even think about China.

   27. MCMelissa Chen46:04

       I don't, no, I don't think, I think Hong Kong was the-

   28. JRJoe Rogan46:07

       Yeah.

   29. MCMelissa Chen46:07

       ... was the thing that kind of lit, you know, the whole barrel.

   30. JRJoe Rogan46:08

       Just seeing the hundreds of thousands of people in the streets every day-
10. 46:45 – 53:50

    Immigrating for the First Amendment: culture shock, infrastructure, and engineered cohesion

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       Now, what year did you come over here? How old were you?

    2. MCMelissa Chen46:48

       17.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:48

       17?

    4. MCMelissa Chen46:49

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:49

       What was the shift like going from Singapore to the United States? You lived in New York then?

    6. MCMelissa Chen46:54

       No, no, Boston. Boston.

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:55

       Boston?

    8. MCMelissa Chen46:55

       Your, your hometown, right?

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:56

       Yeah.

    10. MCMelissa Chen46:57

        Yeah. I lived in Boston for 10 years. Um, really enjoyed it actually. Kinda miss it.

    11. JRJoe Rogan47:01

        It's cold as fuck.

    12. MCMelissa Chen47:03

        It... No, I, I like it.

    13. JRJoe Rogan47:05

        (laughs)

    14. MCMelissa Chen47:05

        I know, I'm a skier, so I, I really like it. Um, but the, there was huge culture shock. Um-

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:09

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MCMelissa Chen47:10

        In a way, I knew what I was signing up for. I, I chose Amer- like, it's actually easier for a Singaporean to plug and play into any of the Commonwealth countries because it was a former British colony. So, all your credits would just transfer kind of more easily to a university in England, for example-

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:25

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MCMelissa Chen47:25

        ... or Australia. But I chose America precisely for the First Amendment.

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:30

        Really?

    20. MCMelissa Chen47:31

        Yeah, it was very, it was a very strong motivating factor for me. Um, and also just the, the culture of, of, uh, like we said, celebrating weird people. (laughs)

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:39

        Yes.

    22. MCMelissa Chen47:40

        Um, because I was weird, so I wanted to be in a place where I thought I would be accepted.

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:43

        What made you weird?

    24. MCMelissa Chen47:46

        Um, so I-Singapore is pretty conformist in terms of, um, you talk about monocultures. There, there is a, a conformist tribe. Like, there is the right schools you go to, the right paths you take, very entrenched. And, uh, I really rebelled against that. Like, you know in Singapore, chewing gum is banned, right?

    25. JRJoe Rogan48:07

        Yeah.

    26. MCMelissa Chen48:09

        I have it here.

    27. JRJoe Rogan48:09

        Look at you.

    28. MCMelissa Chen48:09

        It's always ...

    29. JRJoe Rogan48:10

        Do you always bring chewing gum-

    30. MCMelissa Chen48:11

        It's just always.
11. 53:50 – 58:00

    Contact hypothesis, Daryl Davis, and the ‘political one-drop rule’ of guilt-by-association

    1. JRJoe Rogan53:50

       Do you know who Daryl Davis is?

    2. MCMelissa Chen53:51

       Yes, of course.

    3. JRJoe Rogan53:52

       Yeah. Okay.

    4. MCMelissa Chen53:52

       I wrote about him.

    5. JRJoe Rogan53:53

       Oh, did you?

    6. MCMelissa Chen53:53

       One of my articles ... Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan53:55

       Um-

    8. MCMelissa Chen53:55

       I was at that conference that-... that he... (laughs) We were speaking at, we were speaking at the same conference and y-... That's the conference that Daryl Davis was called neo-Nazi. Did he talk about that on your show?

    9. JRJoe Rogan54:05

       That someone called him a neo-Nazi?

    10. MCMelissa Chen54:08

        Yeah. Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan54:10

        How do they... How?

    12. MCMelissa Chen54:12

        Because-

    13. JRJoe Rogan54:13

        Let me explain to people who he is if you didn't listen to the podcast that I did with him.

    14. MCMelissa Chen54:16

        Yep.

    15. JRJoe Rogan54:16

        Daryl Davis is a musician and he, uh, was doing some shows at this country western bar and met some people from the Klan. And through just communicating with them and being friendly with them over a period of many months, he got them to quit. They quit the Klan on their own. He didn't even request it. And then, over the course of several years, he's gotten more than 200 people to leave the Klan, leave neo-Nazi organizations and he, he, they give him their robes-

    16. MCMelissa Chen54:44

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan54:44

        ... and their flags and he brought them all in here and-

    18. MCMelissa Chen54:47

        Oh my God.

    19. JRJoe Rogan54:47

        He's a inspirational human being.

    20. MCMelissa Chen54:49

        Very much so.

    21. JRJoe Rogan54:49

        But he essentially was reinforcing what you were saying, that these people were never around anyone. Like, one of the guys that he met initially was saying, "I've never had a bl- a drink with a Black man before." And he's like, "How is that possible?" And he's like, uh, "I'm in the Klan." And he's like, "I've never, I've never had a drink with a Black man." And so he's like, "This is the first time I'm ever having a drink with a Black man," and they were, like, making this big deal out of it. And then eventually, Daryl was going to his house and, and eating dinner with him and hanging out with him and then, and then the guy's like, "I can't do this anymore." Like, "Why am I in the Klan?" And he quit.

    22. MCMelissa Chen55:23

        Wow.

    23. JRJoe Rogan55:24

        And he quit just from Daryl being this really friendly, articulate, brilliant guy who clearly didn't fit their narrative of what they thought their, their racist depiction of what a, a Black man is.

    24. MCMelissa Chen55:39

        Right. Right. So the incident that happened was, uh, this group called, uh, Mythicists Milwaukee had organized a conference. It was one of those-

    25. JRJoe Rogan55:48

        What had it called Milwa- what?

    26. MCMelissa Chen55:49

        Mythicists.

    27. JRJoe Rogan55:50

        Mythicists?

    28. MCMelissa Chen55:50

        Yeah. That was the name of the group. But they, they were kind of like a secular... So the Mythicists believe that Jesus Christ was a, like, He didn't really exist as a historical figure. That's what a Mythicist is. But in any case, it, it is, it's, it's a secular group that, that put on a conference and they've been doing that for years. Um, and they had, alongside, you know, s- people like Sargon of Akkad, you know, Count Dracula, the guy who taught his pug to do the salute.

    29. JRJoe Rogan56:19

        The Hitler thing?

    30. MCMelissa Chen56:19

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12. 58:00 – 2:03:13

    Wokeness, purity tests, and polarization: speech, religion analogies, and cancellation

    1. JRJoe Rogan58:00

       No. This desire to shut down speech is very dangerous and it's very stupid and it's childish and it's this thing that it gets... It, it, it just gets reinforced in that culture, the, this, uh, you know, the culture of either Antifa or people that support Antifa. They don't understand the consequences of shutting down speech.

    2. MCMelissa Chen58:18

       Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan58:18

       You think that you're just gonna shut down speech and deplatform people that have marginally offensive views? And the problem with that is, first of all, you close the door for them to be influenced in a positive way or for other people to learn from them being influenced in a positive way.

    4. MCMelissa Chen58:33

       Right.

    5. JRJoe Rogan58:33

       And second of all, the way to shut down ideas is not stop the person from talking. It's to combat those ideas with better ideas and then everyone around them gets to see the discourse. W- when you have these debates online and people discuss these things online, it benefits millions of people.

    6. MCMelissa Chen58:51

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan58:52

       When you shut that down, it benefits nobody but your cause and your cause is probably incorrect. Like, your, your ideas are probably wrong. And in the case of Daryl Davis, you're definitely wrong. He's not a Nazi. So if you shot, shutting that down and saying-

    8. MCMelissa Chen59:05

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan59:05

       ... "These people are Nazis," well, you're wrong and you're censoring people that are trying to get to the bottom of things. And getting to the bottom of things, I mean, discussing things and trying to figure out tenable solutions or a more comfortable middle ground, that takes forever. This is not like... You know, you have Christina Hoff Sommers and she has this discussion and, and, and they pull fire alarms and, and yell-

    10. MCMelissa Chen59:28

        (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan59:28

        ... that she's a Nazi. Like, she's a feminist. Like, you're, you guys are crazy. Like, this... Everyone has to comply with woke ideology 100% with no deviance whatsoever and everyone has to take an impossible-to-pass purity test. It's, it's... This is a dumb way-

    12. MCMelissa Chen59:45

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan59:46

        ... to communicate.

    14. MCMelissa Chen59:47

        But you ever notice something too? It's, it's always that it's... Why is the concern always that if we have this battle of ideas that the person would shift to the right?

    15. JRJoe Rogan59:57

        Yes.

    16. MCMelissa Chen59:57

        Why is it... Why are you not concerned about the other way, right? It's, it's kind of, like, reminds me of, like... 'Cause I grew up pretty evangelical, my mom was very religious, it was that she tried to-... t- it's that, okay, if you're, if you're a good Christian, you might get corrupted by bad ideas, so we have to ban... I don't know like Harry Potter books are banned in my household. It's like we had to ban all these-

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:17

        LOL.

    18. MCMelissa Chen1:00:18

        (laughs) Because it, it encouraged witchcraft, so I wasn't allowed to celebrate Halloween.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:22

        (laughs)

    20. MCMelissa Chen1:00:22

        You know.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

        Encouraged witchcraft? Wow, that's heavy.

    22. MCMelissa Chen1:00:25

        Yeah, yeah. It's pagan stuff.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:26

        That's heavy.

    24. MCMelissa Chen1:00:26

        It's satanic. But, but that's what I mean. This is like, this is satanic, this is evil, and it, it has taken on this religious dimension-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:00:34

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MCMelissa Chen1:00:34

        ... this liturgical dimension because it's, well, they're always so concerned that the corruption is just going, like they're gonna drift to the right.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:00:41

        Of course.

    28. MCMelissa Chen1:00:41

        They're never concerned that, that somebody might be convinced by the arguments and go to the left. Why? I don't get that.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:00:47

        Well, the drifting to the left, first of all, they think would be a good thing. The problem is-

    30. MCMelissa Chen1:00:52

        But why don't they think it would happen?

Episode duration: 2:24:54