EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,001 words- 0:01 – 2:11
Singapore’s strict laws: caning, hanging, and drug executions
- JRJoe Rogan
What's up, Melissa? How are you?
- MCMelissa Chen
Hello, Joe.
- JRJoe Rogan
We were just talking about caning and hanging in Singapore.
- MCMelissa Chen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hanging now, is that the new one?
- MCMelissa Chen
No, it's always been-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's how they always do it?
- MCMelissa Chen
I mean, caning is one of the forms of capital punishment, but they, they still, they actually hang for drugs.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is Singapore like? I've never been. It seems like a strange place, 'cause it's relatively wealthy, right?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yes, very much so.
- JRJoe Rogan
And upscale and very nice, but also ruthless.
- MCMelissa Chen
But you know what happened in, like, my generation? I've witnessed it go from third world to first world in my lifetime.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, yeah. So it's one of those success stories of nation building. Um, but it's, it's kind of like, you know those snow globes, the perfect snow globes-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
... with the, yeah, when you, like, turn it over and, like, everything kind of sprinkles? That's what it feels like living in Singapore. For me, at least. I, I had to get out. It's just, it's a bit sterile. It's perfect, but it's too perfect. It's almost like, there's a, somebody called it once Disneyland with the death penalty.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MCMelissa Chen
Which is a pretty good description.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you get the death penalty for things like drugs, right?
- MCMelissa Chen
Just possession past, like, maybe 25 grams or 25 milligrams or something, marijuana trafficking.
- JRJoe Rogan
So if you have an ounce of marijuana, how many grams is in an ounce?
- MCMelissa Chen
What's the conversion? I don't know. I, I haven't converted to-
- JRJoe Rogan
20?
- MCMelissa Chen
Your system.
- JRJoe Rogan
28. 28 grams in an ounce? Yeah, 28. So, like, an, an ounce is a good amount of weed, but two ounces of weed, you're dead?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah. By hanging.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- 2:11 – 3:49
From “third world to first world”: Lee Kuan Yew’s model and the cost of order
- JRJoe Rogan
How did it go from third world to first world so quickly?
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, I guess the founder, you know, of the country, well, not the founder, the founding prime minister, uh, Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, was probably one of the world's most famous modern statesmen. Um, he, he was resolute, like, you know, weeded out corruption. He was kind of, like, very, very tight controls on free speech, but very much a, a sort of, um, neoliberal economic policies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
So it attracted a lot of foreign investment, right? Because the highest income tax bracket is, like, maybe 13%. It's very low. Um, there's almost no welfare, um, at least in, in the sense of, uh, how we understand welfare. But there's a lot of ... It's a hybrid system, so there's, there's a lot of, uh, like, zero capital gains taxes, zero state taxes. Very easy to set up a business. So he had managed to attract a lot of, um, foreign businesses to set up their multinational corporation headquarters in Asia, because the other alternative would be maybe China.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
But China would probably end up stealing all your (laughs) you know, your, your, your corporate secrets, your-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
... intellectual property. But Singapore was billed as, "This is the country that protects rule of law."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MCMelissa Chen
Also, English. He kind of made everybody, um, speak English with the working language. So if you wanted to set up business in Asia, that was your place to go.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- MCMelissa Chen
You got to, like, you know, if you, if you want to attract investment, you have to say, like, "Okay, what's in my, what's in my region? And how can I be, how can I have a competitive advantage?" So that was, that was how Singapore really, uh, developed and, and, you know, just gained a lot of traction as a state, city state.
- 3:49 – 5:06
Pop culture perceptions of Singapore and Melissa’s public persona
- JRJoe Rogan
The average American knows Singapore because of that kid that got caned. (laughs)
- MCMelissa Chen
Now it's that stupid movie.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which movie?
- MCMelissa Chen
Ugh, The Crazy Rich Asians. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Crazy Rich Asians, right, right.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I never saw that. Was it good?
- MCMelissa Chen
Uh, I didn't like it, 'cause I don't like rom-coms.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- MCMelissa Chen
And like, come on, the premise is like a girl is d- an American Asian girl is, like, dating this guy from Singapore. He, she doesn't know he's rich, and she finds out on the plane there. It's like the most bullshit thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MCMelissa Chen
It's just conspicuous consumption. I mean, it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
... it's got some, you know, the city looks beautiful, and in fact, I kind of grew up with some people that, that lived that lifestyle. Um, but I, I just don't like that kind of movie. It's, it's, it's a chick flick.
- JRJoe Rogan
A chick flick.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Got it. You're not into chick flicks. Your Instagram is hilarious, by the way.
- MCMelissa Chen
Instagram?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very, excuse me.
- MCMelissa Chen
I don't have Twittergram.
- JRJoe Rogan
Twitter, your Twitter.
- MCMelissa Chen
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I get them confused sometimes. Your Twitter feed is really good.
- MCMelissa Chen
I try to-
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's just both insightful, but also very funny.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, I try to play both sides. But the problem is, like, you know, I think, I think today, there's a bit of a, um, if you're, if you're a girl and you're, you're kind of funny, there, there's a bit of a sense that, like, people don't really take you that seriously. So I've been told to tone it down on, on jokes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Who's telling you that?
- 5:06 – 7:23
Ideas Beyond Borders: translating forbidden ideas into Arabic
- MCMelissa Chen
Well, I'm also, you know, I run, I run a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MCMelissa Chen
... major nonprofit organization, and, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Want to tell everybody what it is, or keep it on the down low?
- MCMelissa Chen
Uh ... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MCMelissa Chen
No, it's a, it's, it's a really, well, it's kind of right up your alley. You know, it's, it's a organization that, that really tries to promote pluralistic thinking, um, and- and, you know, basically exporting ideas to the part of the world that it's often censored and, and you have narratives that are just not, um, you know, not exposed to, people are not exposed to, the Middle East. So you know, we, we thought, you know, we spent like, what, $8 trillion on the war on terror? And what was the result? Right? Like, we, we, we marched in and said, "Okay, we're gonna bring freedom and democracy to people." But if there were no cultural institutions to kind of nudge people to, to understand why they should value freedom and democracy, is it really a surprise that it failed to take root there?So, that's what, you know, we basically, we're called, uh, the organization is called Ideas Beyond Borders. And it's kind of self-explanatory. You know, we basically take, um, acquire the rights to books, um, that are not available there, translate them into Arabic, um, for free, and then we just, like, load it up on the library site. Anyone can basically access that, download it. Um, and we do Wikipedia, too. So like, 10% of all of Wikipedia is in Arabic, of English Wikipedia.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MCMelissa Chen
And, uh, so we basically try to, you know, like for example, George Orwell doesn't exist in Arabic, right? So like, if you look it up, would you even understand what the word Orwellian means?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, how did you get involved in this?
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, my co-founder is a Iraqi refugee, and he grew up under Saddam.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- MCMelissa Chen
And, uh, it's, it's... I, I met him when I was in grad school, and I was really compelled by what he was talking about, you know, just like, uh... As somebody who grew up in Singapore too, we don't really have freedom of speech, right? So, um, the issue with that, like for me, I, I just felt like growing up, um, I was not... I was kind of like, all right, you know what? My issue is that like, there was no, uh, freedom of, of thought, freedom of speech in Singapore. The government
- 7:23 – 16:05
Caffeine detour: energy drinks, THC immunity, and drug policy comparisons
- MCMelissa Chen
just kind of controls everything. Sorry, give me a second. My heart rate is like, so high (laughs) because I've been drinking so much.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because you've been drinking this stuff? Is that what it is?
- MCMelissa Chen
Bang. Yeah. Sorry, just hand me a second.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was worried that you were nervous.
- MCMelissa Chen
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- JRJoe Rogan
So let's tell everybody what you're drinking.
- MCMelissa Chen
Oh my God, I'm sorry.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're drinking this... It's called Bang. How many did you have?
- MCMelissa Chen
This is my second one.
- JRJoe Rogan
You weigh eight pounds.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- MCMelissa Chen
I don't.
- JRJoe Rogan
The fuck are you doing?
- MCMelissa Chen
I don't, sorry.
- JRJoe Rogan
You're so tiny. This is so much.
- MCMelissa Chen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you gonna-
- MCMelissa Chen
I know, I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you gonna be the first person to die on this show?
- MCMelissa Chen
No, no. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Please don't.
- MCMelissa Chen
Sorry. I mean, this stuff is like...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, put it away.
- MCMelissa Chen
It's got a lot of caffeine and like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Stop fucking with it.
- MCMelissa Chen
Sorry, it was my second one. I had like, a really heavy workout.
- JRJoe Rogan
You can't have second ones of those. You, you probably weigh like, 80 pounds. Like, seriously.
- MCMelissa Chen
105.
- JRJoe Rogan
Come on, stop lying.
- MCMelissa Chen
105 pounds, yeah. No, I got, I got muscle.
- 16:05 – 19:05
Why censorship persists: monoculture, religion, and fear of questioning
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. So, so what you're saying is that these part- parts of the world, one of the problems of getting them to shift their perception of the world is that they're not exposed to all the great works, they're not exposed to the-
- MCMelissa Chen
Different ideas.
- JRJoe Rogan
... different ideas and different-
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... different debates.
- MCMelissa Chen
And they have a monoculture.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
So monoculture because of, you know, society is, they, they have religions, they have ways of life that are just so deeply entrenched, right? Um, and then you also have a c- really, really heavy censorship, both from your authoritarian government and also from your religion.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, you know, the, the first word, for example, the first word in the Quran is actually read.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MCMelissa Chen
But it, they really mean just read this one thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
And, uh, you know, just the, the sort of like habits of a free mind are not really cultivated, um, and also when you're taught, I mean, growing up not to question things. And in part I understand because, um, I think when you grow up in an Asian household with like, you know, tighter parents, there's this sense of like, "You don't question my authority," you know? So it, it permeates culture from a very, very young age, and imagine like if you kind of grow up in that environment, you're going to internalize all those things, and that's why y- it kind of, you know, it, it follows you over time. So when you're in school, you're taught no questions, it's this...
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
It's not like here where it is like, "There's no such thing as a stupid question, Chad."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
There are in Asia, like, "You're dumb." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
There's definitely stupid questions over here too.
- MCMelissa Chen
But you're told, you're at least told that you're, you-
- JRJoe Rogan
We're giving Chad a break.
- MCMelissa Chen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But I, I, I understand what you're saying, and that must be really interesting for you to go from this one fairly restrictive environment to a fairly open environment.
- MCMelissa Chen
Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
And d- did that shift that happened in you and being exposed to all these different ide- did that spark this-... desire to help other people sort of expand their, their, their ideas and what they're exposed to?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, because, well, I felt like a fish out of water-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
... growing up in Singapore. I was always the person that, like, the teachers had to call, like, you know, "Your daughter's asking too many questions. She's disrupting the class."
- JRJoe Rogan
What kind of questions?
- MCMelissa Chen
(sighs) I don't know. I went to Sunday school too. I was like, I was that kid who was just like, "Uh, you know, excuse me, but why, why do the dinosaurs, uh, wh- why is it in the Bible that the dinosaurs and, and, and human beings walked, you know, basically, like, days apart, when, like, we know from science that, you know, it was millions of years?" And fossils and-
- 19:05 – 22:24
Faisal’s story: Iraq, Al-Qaeda threats, and the stakes of free speech
- MCMelissa Chen
And okay, that's one level of it, and if you, say, grew up in the Middle East, asking a question could be death, right? If you, if you even remotely, like, say, in Saudi Arabia especially, remotely reveal that you might be having atheistic thoughts, that's death. So it's like we're talking about different scales and degrees of censorship and consequences for that. And, uh, I think when I met my co-founder, Faisal, you know, I was like, "Okay, I, I guess I have, I, I had issues with the country I grew up in," but for him, it was, he ended up almost being killed by Al-Qaeda for just, like, starting a blog talking about, you know, the importance of secularism and, and, uh, countering violent extremism.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, that's how he came here as a refugee. (smacks lips) So I'm like, "Oh, shit, maybe there are..." you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
How did he almost get killed by Al-Qaeda?
- MCMelissa Chen
Uh, well, 'cause, uh, when, when the US invaded Baghdad and he was living in, in Baghdad at the time, um, and, uh, Al-Qaeda took over his neighborhood once there was a void. Saddam was ousted, right? And, uh, he was kind of like, you know, roaming around and, like, telling, kind of telling the youth army certain things like, "Okay, you know, like, this is where Al-Qaeda is. Uh, this is the cell. My, my friend here h- has been, like, radicalized."
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
And, uh, Al-Qaeda knew. They put him on a, on a hit list, you know, because he was not sympathetic to their cause. And, uh, so he ended up on the death list. His brother was killed. Just a horrible story. Bridget actually recently interviewed him on, on her podcast. And, and I get the sense that, like, oh shit, like, the consequence of saying what you think there is, like, at least in my case, was just like, "Hey, maybe I might go to jail-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MCMelissa Chen
... in Singapore."
- JRJoe Rogan
Well-
- MCMelissa Chen
But, but in Iraq, it was death. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
I think it's hard for people in America to really grasp what that environment must be like, because we're so accustomed to this idea of freedom of speech.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, freedom of thought, too.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's so ingrained. Yes, it's so ingrained.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Rebels are appreciated and tolerated here. You know?
- MCMelissa Chen
Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
They're rewarded.
- MCMelissa Chen
... exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, it's, it's the whole maverick thing. I think, you know, as long as America still can celebrate mavericks and toler- not just tolerate them, but actually celebrate them-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
... we're, we're gonna be fine, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hopefully.
- MCMelissa Chen
Hopefully.
- JRJoe Rogan
The thing is that, if it exists the way it exists in other parts of the world, it can exist like that here. Like, the worst cases of human behavior, when you see y- you know, any form of dictatorship or control or propaganda or control by the state or by industry, that's stuff that you see in other countries. It's human beings in 2020.
- MCMelissa Chen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, our... We would like to think that our Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and all of our ideals and what th- this country was founded on is gonna keep it from deteriorating like that, and most likely, it will. But the reality is, those people in Iraq are human beings in 2020, and they are living in a completely different way than we're living right now, at the sa- on the same timeline.
- 22:24 – 26:00
China’s rise and ‘digital tyranny’: surveillance, censorship, and exporting tools
- MCMelissa Chen
Right. And, you know, right now, also, like, with, uh, the rise of China, they're also, you know, starting to u- like, basically, some form of, like, electronic tyranny, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
They're able to, to really censor the internet in a way that's been unprecedented. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
... you can't access Facebook, Wikipedia, Tw- none of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
... none of these things that you and, you and I can just, like, open on our, our apps can be accessed in, in China. So the way they just, like, c- control information and now exporting those same tools to other authoritarian countries around the world is... That part, to me, is dangerous, because, you know, I think both Faisal and I came to America (smacks lips) with this, like, "All right, this is the place that we can finally be ourselves and think for ourselves," right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
And we're starting to see that the whole world seems to be kind of going in the other direction.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did, um... So there was a shift in China, and the shift was... It was initially a completely communist society, and now, capitalism, at least in a monetary sense, is embraced.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, market reforms, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so... Yes. So there's this giant shift in what China actually is, which corresponds to this huge growth. Is it possible that, in the future, this shift could move on to other aspects of Chinese culture, like discourse or the way they view the government or even some form of democracy?
- MCMelissa Chen
That was what we expected.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what we expected.
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, that was the theory.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
But, but-... the, the way China has behaved now, you know, they call it socialism with Chinese characteristics.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
That's the official name of, of, of this long drawn game to, you know, institute market reforms, usher in, uh, riches for the, for the middle class, lift a lot of people out of poverty, but in a very controlled way, in, in a way that's like... See, that's the thing about like Asian culture that people don't understand, it's that the- there's a fundamental difference between the China dream and the American dream, right? And, and Xi Jinping has outlined what he thinks is the China dream. It's, it's, it's basically a top down way to, to, uh, it's a goal, it's a national goal, and, and basically what they're trying to say is that, "Okay, we're gonna get, lift a lot of people out of poverty, but you have to, your generation has to make sacrifices." So it's not about the individual. It's about building a strong China and implicitly also about, uh, you know, ensuring that the CCP stays in power, the Chinese Communist Party stays in power. But it's, it's that you might have to give up, you know, personal sacrifices for the sake of China. Versus the American dream is, is bottom up. It's about your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That's it. And if you do that, that's the American dream. And if you achieve a certain level of happiness, if you achieve, you know, it's all like, it's bottom up. It's not, it's not centralized and it's not something that the Chinese government is kind of trying to stuff down your throat. Um, and China's willing to play the long game. So it is still a c- Leninist, Leninist Marxist government. Xi Jinping still believes in all of that, that's why it's still so totalitarian. But it's, you know, they, they know that like, the way to get, gain power in the world is to get rich. And they did it on some, you know, on the backs of, on the back of trade with other countries, through very unfair practices actually, in many cases. So if you think about like how they... I think there, there are a lot of estimates of how much they've actually stolen from the United States in terms of intellectual property, um, corporate, corporate espionage, um, now even like academia's being infected. So...
- 26:00 – 31:09
Influence operations: academia, Huawei, and market leverage as power
- JRJoe Rogan
How so?
- MCMelissa Chen
They just arrested the head of the chemistry department at Harvard.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's right.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But wasn't that, didn't they think that that guy was in connection with some weaponized... What's that article?
- MCMelissa Chen
Oh, the virus thing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
No, no, no, no. That, that's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Am I thinking of something else?
- MCMelissa Chen
There was, uh, an article linking some Canadian researchers to the virus.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's right, that's what it was.
- MCMelissa Chen
No, but this was, this was different. The head of the, the chemistry department at Harvard was found to have lied about receiving money from the Chinese government. So there's this program-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
... called the Thousand Talents Program in China. Basically, they're offering a lot of money. The New York Times did a really good expose on this. Um, they basically offer money to like academics, because, you know, it kind of sucks to be one here in the sense of like, you're not paid that well.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MCMelissa Chen
But China's dangling like, a lot more money and saying, "Okay, If you, if you do research here in China, um, there's going to be like, less bureaucracy."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, so that's their way to lure these people in, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
So he was hiding the fact that he was getting income from them?
- MCMelissa Chen
He was hiding. Correct, correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
How was he hiding it?
- MCMelissa Chen
He just, he didn't report it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- MCMelissa Chen
And...
- JRJoe Rogan
But he put it in the bank anyway?
- MCMelissa Chen
Right. And, and so at the end of the day when, when, when you do, when, when there's a relationship there, China owns your research.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MCMelissa Chen
And if you're researching something sensitive, that's a big issue.
- JRJoe Rogan
There was an article today, uh, where they've confirmed that Huawei has some sort of third party back door with a lot of their electronics.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- 31:09 – 46:45
Corporate and cultural capitulation: NBA, Hollywood, and rewriting content for China
- MCMelissa Chen
And if you think about what happened with the NBA, um, you know, with the whole Daryl More tweet and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, explain that, because that was shocking to me, 'cause the way they were capitulating to China, I was, you know, I was a little stunned.
- MCMelissa Chen
Me too.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause it was so open.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you explain what happened?
- MCMelissa Chen
So Daryl More, who is the GM of the Houston Rockets, he tweeted out, um, basically a, a little picture that, that showed that he supported the Hong Kong protestors. And the Hong Kong protestors have been at it since July of last year, 2019. Um, they w- have been protesting the incursion of, of Chinese control into their supposedly autonomous region. China promised them that there would be, um, two systems, one country, two systems, after the handover in 1997 from the British to, to, to China. Um, they've slowly kind of eroded that, um, in w- in many ways. And their freedoms have been kind of, you know, diminishing over time. The straw, the straw that broke the camel's back was actually this policy that they passed, this law they passed that said that anyone can be extradited to China for trials basically. It was after a case that happened, a criminal case. And the Hong Kong people knew that h- this law, if it goes in effect, basically gives the Chinese government legal right to disappear or kidnap anyone and bring them for trial in some sort of kangaroo c- or show trial in, in, in China and that has happened. So booksellers, it's always the booksellers, in Hong Kong have been kidnapped because they were publishing these like insider accounts, like dirty secrets of the, you know, the CCP, whenever there was a leak, 'cause the, the Chinese Communist Party is huge. The Politburo is huge. And so there was a bookseller called Causeway Books and they were publishing all these like accounts from within the, the Chinese Communist Party and the owner of that bookshop one day just disappeared. And he ended up in China, um, it was basically a forced kidnapping and he, he was released, I think he was, you know, he, he did his jail time and now he's setting up another booksh- bookshop in Taiwan. Um, but, but that law basically would just have allowed China to do that legally this time. So the Hong Kong youth were up in arms. They, you know, they, they were tired of all their, the ways that their way of life had changed since the British handed, handed it over, and al- you know, in, in a way they were kind of pining for the good old times, the good old times when they were under colonial, you know, an English colonial master, which was one of those like poof moment for anyone on the left.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, (smacks lips) and so Daryl More tweeted this out and of course you know how big the, the China market is for the NBA, right? Like all these players have contracts with them. In fact the Houston Rockets had a lot of contracts with the Chinese CCTV for broadcasts, um, they also had like merchandising opportunities, sneakers that were made there. And, um, (smacks lips) that caused a huge, huge outcry in China. They were just like, "Oh, he's disrespecting us," um, and they were able to force him to basically make a groveling tweet that said, "Oh, I'm sorry for hurting the feelings of the Chinese people." And then like all the other, some NBA players actually came out and, and, you know, kind of took the side of the, of the Chinese government, like, "Oh wait, who are we to-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
... you know, they, they kind of like did this backpedal thing when, when they're so strong on other forms of activism here, like, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
... the NBA when it came to the North Carolina, the bathroom bill, you remember? Like the transgender bathroom bill?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
They were, they were always on the side of the woke. (smacks lips) But then when it came to the China/Hong Kong issue, they stood with the biggest... The, the oppressor.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's always hard when someone does side on the woke, like what are you, are you doing this 'cause you think this or are you doing this 'cause you think it'll make people think more highly of you if you do it? It's such a contrived thing today. It's so difficult to figure out why people are acting the way they're acting. So when they were acting in that way, it was so transparent.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was, there was no ifs, ands, or buts about it, like they were pressured and they were worried about the money, they were worried about economic, you know-
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... whatever-
- MCMelissa Chen
The fallout.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, whatever fallout would happen.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was really obvious. It was like, "Whoa, this is not like trans people using the bathroom." This is like, "You guys are threatened."
- MCMelissa Chen
Right, exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
But the number of companies that have kowtowed to China's, uh, you know, orthodoxy is, there should be a list, somebody should be keeping track of all of this. Um, there are companies like Marriott, uh, even like luxury brands, so I think Versace or Dolce & Gabbana got in trouble because I think on their website they listed like countries...... that, um, were in. And it was like, they put Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's right.
- MCMelissa Chen
... and China said, "No, no, no. What are you doing? This is all China."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 46:45 – 50:36
Becoming American: moving at 17, freedom of speech, and culture shock in Boston
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, what year did you come over here? How old were you?
- MCMelissa Chen
17.
- JRJoe Rogan
17?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was the shift like going from Singapore to the United States? You lived in New York then?
- MCMelissa Chen
No, no, Boston. Boston.
- JRJoe Rogan
Boston?
- MCMelissa Chen
Your, your hometown, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah. I lived in Boston for 10 years. Um, really enjoyed it actually. Kinda miss it.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's cold as fuck.
- MCMelissa Chen
It... No, I, I like it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MCMelissa Chen
I know, I'm a skier, so I, I really like it. Um, but the, there was huge culture shock. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
In a way, I knew what I was signing up for. I, I chose Amer- like, it's actually easier for a Singaporean to plug and play into any of the Commonwealth countries because it was a former British colony. So, all your credits would just transfer kind of more easily to a university in England, for example-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MCMelissa Chen
... or Australia. But I chose America precisely for the First Amendment.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, it was very, it was a very strong motivating factor for me. Um, and also just the, the culture of, of, uh, like we said, celebrating weird people. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, because I was weird, so I wanted to be in a place where I thought I would be accepted.
- JRJoe Rogan
What made you weird?
- MCMelissa Chen
Um, so I-Singapore is pretty conformist in terms of, um, you talk about monocultures. There, there is a, a conformist tribe. Like, there is the right schools you go to, the right paths you take, very entrenched. And, uh, I really rebelled against that. Like, you know in Singapore, chewing gum is banned, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
I have it here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at you.
- MCMelissa Chen
It's always ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you always bring chewing gum-
- MCMelissa Chen
It's just always.
- 50:36 – 53:50
Engineering cohesion vs valuing liberty: Singapore’s housing integration model
- MCMelissa Chen
You know, I, I tweeted, um, maybe like last week saying something like, uh, especially now we're in like political debate season. I'm so tired of this whole left/right argument. Like, "Small government." "No, big government." "Government's a problem." "Government's solution." It's, it's about effective government, and I think that's something that the, the Singapore government have really perfected. It's, it's effective governance. It's not about the size. We're gonna ... I don't care whether this is a policy that came from the right or the left. It's what works. People respond to incentives, right? And if you want to, um, encourage a certain kind of behavior, you ... there's carrots and sticks to, to basically encourage that behavior. Um, and so it's, there, there are things that the government would do in a way that just would never fly here, where, where you, we, you know, we treasure civil liberties too much in a way, um, which I personally came here for that reason, but I'll give you a good example. Social cohesion is engineered in Singapore. So, uh, there's, it's very, very multicultural, multiethnic society. You have Malay Muslims, Indians, Hindus, Chinese who are Buddhists, Christians, and you know, Caucasians all living, uh, in a, in a, on an island city state that's about five million in terms of population. And how the government manages this multicultural project is that 80% of people actually live in public housing. That's very high. It's like a socialist thing, right, public housing that the government builds for you. And each block has to mimic the racial demographics of the whole country. So you don't have ghettos, right? So you imagine like a, a housing estate that basically mirrors like, okay, if the total makeup of the country is 60% Chinese, 20% Malay Muslims, it has to follow. So you can't have basically an area like Birmingham in the UK where all the Muslim immigrants or, or you know, something like Dearborn, Michigan or Minnesota with all the Somali immigrants. You are forced to integrate. It's a, it's a way to force people to integrate and have, you know, neighbors that are just not, not your own kind.Um, and that's how they've created this like national identity that's very strong.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's interesting because everybody would want that, but they wouldn't want it engineered.
- MCMelissa Chen
Correct.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know what I'm saying?
- MCMelissa Chen
Exactly. Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like everybody would love if the country, if all of our neighborhoods were integrated and everybody just got along with everybody. I think ... I've always felt like that's one of the things that New York has a, a large advantage over Los Angeles, is interaction. People are constantly on the subway and walking on the streets with everybody.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Of all different classes.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
All different backgrounds. And I think that's really good.
- MCMelissa Chen
I think it's good too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
It's the contact hypothesis, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MCMelissa Chen
Like, I feel like if kids grew up with ... Like, if you had a Black friend growing up, like s- since you were, you know, three or four, you, you would never in your, you would never think to be racist. Like, it's just one of those things that's like early contact with different people, and it's the same with ... That's what I feel about ideas too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MCMelissa Chen
Early contact with different ideas really helps. And, um, that's, that's ... I don't know. I've kind of devoted my, my, my life to, to that cause almost. It's just-
- 53:50 – 1:02:44
Deplatforming, Antifa, and the ‘political one-drop rule’
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you know who Daryl Davis is?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yes, of course.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Okay.
- MCMelissa Chen
I wrote about him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, did you?
- MCMelissa Chen
One of my articles ... Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um-
- MCMelissa Chen
I was at that conference that-... that he... (laughs) We were speaking at, we were speaking at the same conference and y-... That's the conference that Daryl Davis was called neo-Nazi. Did he talk about that on your show?
- JRJoe Rogan
That someone called him a neo-Nazi?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do they... How?
- MCMelissa Chen
Because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Let me explain to people who he is if you didn't listen to the podcast that I did with him.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Daryl Davis is a musician and he, uh, was doing some shows at this country western bar and met some people from the Klan. And through just communicating with them and being friendly with them over a period of many months, he got them to quit. They quit the Klan on their own. He didn't even request it. And then, over the course of several years, he's gotten more than 200 people to leave the Klan, leave neo-Nazi organizations and he, he, they give him their robes-
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and their flags and he brought them all in here and-
- MCMelissa Chen
Oh my God.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's a inspirational human being.
- MCMelissa Chen
Very much so.
- JRJoe Rogan
But he essentially was reinforcing what you were saying, that these people were never around anyone. Like, one of the guys that he met initially was saying, "I've never had a bl- a drink with a Black man before." And he's like, "How is that possible?" And he's like, uh, "I'm in the Klan." And he's like, "I've never, I've never had a drink with a Black man." And so he's like, "This is the first time I'm ever having a drink with a Black man," and they were, like, making this big deal out of it. And then eventually, Daryl was going to his house and, and eating dinner with him and hanging out with him and then, and then the guy's like, "I can't do this anymore." Like, "Why am I in the Klan?" And he quit.
- MCMelissa Chen
Wow.
- JRJoe Rogan
And he quit just from Daryl being this really friendly, articulate, brilliant guy who clearly didn't fit their narrative of what they thought their, their racist depiction of what a, a Black man is.
- MCMelissa Chen
Right. Right. So the incident that happened was, uh, this group called, uh, Mythicists Milwaukee had organized a conference. It was one of those-
- JRJoe Rogan
What had it called Milwa- what?
- MCMelissa Chen
Mythicists.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mythicists?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah. That was the name of the group. But they, they were kind of like a secular... So the Mythicists believe that Jesus Christ was a, like, He didn't really exist as a historical figure. That's what a Mythicist is. But in any case, it, it is, it's, it's a secular group that, that put on a conference and they've been doing that for years. Um, and they had, alongside, you know, s- people like Sargon of Akkad, you know, Count Dracula, the guy who taught his pug to do the salute.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Hitler thing?
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- 1:02:44 – 1:17:42
Religion, identity, and moral certainty: Ben Shapiro, family experience, and the Enlightenment
- JRJoe Rogan
... but I, I f- certainly agree with his right to express himself and he's not convincing me. W- who is he convincing? Like when he talks... When Ben Shapiro... Here's a, here's an area where we deeply disagree: gay people. He thinks it sh- it's immoral.
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He thinks he would never go to a gay person's wedding. He wouldn't have, uh, he wouldn't even go to the celebration, the afterparty of a gay wedding.
- MCMelissa Chen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I'm like, well this is, uh, all for rel- religious reasons.
- MCMelissa Chen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm like that, that's r- I think that's ridiculous. That's not convincing me. So who is it convincing? Is it convincing someone that's a baby? Are, are you d- dealing with children or are we dealing with uneducated people? Are we dealing with people that don't have positive influences?
- MCMelissa Chen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
What's wrong with letting him express these ideas?
- MCMelissa Chen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
These ideas are hot... I mean, he and I had like a long conversation about it on the podcast where I, I was like, "I think it's ridiculous." Like, what do you care? My, my perspective is what do you care, and his perspective is he couldn't support that because of religious reasons. So then we go deep into the hole with why.
- MCMelissa Chen
Moral objections, yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But, and what are these religious reasons? Like how deep do you go with this? Do you think Jesus came back from the dead? Like he doesn't. He's Jewish, it's a different perspective.
- MCMelissa Chen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But do you think, you know, th- th- there's... Do you really think that God thinks that homosexuality is some sort of a carnal sin and, and, and terrible? If so, God made everything, why did he make homosexuals? Please explain that. What, what kind of a weirdo is God-
- MCMelissa Chen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that he gives people this urge to be gay but then he tells them, "Fight that urge," and then he makes this comparison to... that it's like murder. Sometimes you wanna murder people. I'm like, okay. (inhales) I think that's different because you don't wanna murder people all day every day. I know a lot of gay dudes who wanna fuck dudes all the time.
- MCMelissa Chen
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like (laughs) it's... God did a crazy thing to their system. And for you to believe in God but have a problem with that, to me, is ridiculous. So now we're banking on these really ancient words-
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that were written by people with no grasp of science, no understanding of biology, no understanding of the culture of the world, no understanding of the, the, the sheer number of these people and taking into perspective-
- MCMelissa Chen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that, you know, you're literally dealing with I don't know what percentage of the population is gay, but it's a significant percentage. So you're saying all of them are frying in hell. Do you know how dumb that is? That's really fucking dumb. Like if they're your neighbors and they're just happy and loving, what do you care? The goal should be a cohesive society where people are comfortable being around each other with all their differences and just nice.
- MCMelissa Chen
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
People just nice to each other.
- MCMelissa Chen
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight or trans or Black or white or Asian or fucking whatever. It doesn't, it shouldn't matter. The individual should matter and the way we interact with each other, that should matter. And we have to take into consideration that if you're gonna live your life by these things that were written down thousands of years ago before people had any of these understandings of all the subtle nuances of humanity and all the differences that people have and, and, and now the biological understandings of why they have these differences, well you're dealing with ignorance. You're, you're-
- MCMelissa Chen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you're, you're applying these ancient ignorant rules to a modern world where we have a, an- a vastly expanded understanding of human beings.
- MCMelissa Chen
Right. But to Ben's credit, I mean, he's friends with Dave. He doesn't let that-
Episode duration: 2:24:54
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Transcript of episode 6SLVjWbER4M
