Joe Rogan Experience #1503 - Josh Barnett

1. 0:00 – 0:38

   Demons, beards, and the culture of grooming

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      ... two, one. Demons.

   2. JBJosh Barnett0:02

      Demons.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:03

      Demons, be gone.

   4. JBJosh Barnett0:04

      Demons. Uh, I'll, I'll take 'em. I'll just, you know, if- if-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Just absorb them into your soul.

   6. JBJosh Barnett0:07

      Sure, enough, you know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:08

      And, and kill them with your own darkness.

   8. JBJosh Barnett0:10

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      (laughs)

   10. JBJosh Barnett0:11

       That's probably possible, you know? Uh-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:13

       Just the beard alone might scare 'em off.

   12. JBJosh Barnett0:14

       It could be. I've g- I've definitely always got the soundtrack for it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:17

       How long you been growing that fucker?

   14. JBJosh Barnett0:19

       Uh-

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       That's, that's a real one.

   16. JBJosh Barnett0:20

       This thing-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       That's a man's beard.

   18. JBJosh Barnett0:20

       ... actually has taken quite a long time. I am not of the sort who, who is prone to growing facial hair and ch- Like, it took me until probably 36 before I had a single chest hair.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       What?

   20. JBJosh Barnett0:33

       Oh, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:33

       Really?

   22. JBJosh Barnett0:34

       Yeah. I blame the, uh, the Native American side of my family.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       Wow, that's crazy.

   24. JBJosh Barnett0:37

       Yeah.

2. 0:38 – 4:24

   Hairy wrestlers and fighter oddities (from werewolves to chest-hair arrows)

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:38

      Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, I've got back hair now, like, full back hair. Something over the last, like, from the time I was, like, probably, like, 35, I started growing, like, serious back hair. Now, I'm 52 and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not like... Who's that Russian wrestler dude? There's this one-

   2. JBJosh Barnett0:54

      Oh. Uh, well, there was this guy, uh, uh, Viktor Zangiev, who, who actually did professional wrestling, and that guy was just coated in it.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:02

      Oh, yeah. Right.

   4. JBJosh Barnett1:02

      And there was another guy, Salman Hashimov also. (laughs) He, he, he's just a fur coat.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:06

      Who was the... There was one wrestler who had... He'd done a bunch of films and stuff.

   6. JBJosh Barnett1:12

      Hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:12

      Uh, George "The Animal" Steele.

   8. JBJosh Barnett1:13

      Oh. Well, yeah, him.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:14

      He was about as hairy-

   10. JBJosh Barnett1:15

       He was a-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       ... as a human gets.

   12. JBJosh Barnett1:15

       ... a math teacher or something like that-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Was he really?

   14. JBJosh Barnett1:17

       ... in real life? Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       That's li... Yeah, look at him. (laughs)

   16. JBJosh Barnett1:21

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       Full-on gorilla. I mean, that guy was a fucking werewolf. (laughs) Look at the hair on him.

   18. JBJosh Barnett1:28

       Well, you know, when-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       Jesus Christ.

   20. JBJosh Barnett1:29

       ... when, when you got a head like that, it's like you're always walking under a full moon.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       Y- he s- he was in a bunch of, like, art house movies.

   22. JBJosh Barnett1:35

       I could see that. Well, there was also a guy named, uh, Tor something, who was in Plan 9 from Outer Space.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:41

       Oh.

   24. JBJosh Barnett1:41

       And he was also a professional wrestler.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Well, I mean, they're acting all the time. Is this like the hairiest wrestlers? Is that what you pulled up?

   26. JBJosh Barnett1:49

       Yeah. Uh, I did nine...

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       (laughs)

   28. JBJosh Barnett1:51

       I was looking for the Russian guys. That's the article.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:52

       (laughs)

   30. JBJosh Barnett1:52

       I bet you, I bet you, if you put in the hairiest wrestlers' feet, I'm sure that would show up too.
3. 4:24 – 6:24

   How long can a fighter last? Athletic windows, injuries, and training risk

   1. JBJosh Barnett4:24

      Well, you gotta figure, you know, what, what is the... What, what is the, the length of time that you can continue to be an athlete?

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:30

      Yeah.

   3. JBJosh Barnett4:30

      And I've, I've, I've said this to a lot of folks, and that is, you don't know what your athletic window is.

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:36

      Right.

   5. JBJosh Barnett4:36

      Uh, especially when you create something exceptional, like, uh, you start... if you're an Olympic athlete or you're a world class athlete or professional athlete. As you continue to move up the ladder of, uh, difficulty, so to speak, the shorter the window is-

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:51

      Yeah.

   7. JBJosh Barnett4:51

      ... that you can compete at that level, obviously. But, uh, everybody's athletic window is limited.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:58

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JBJosh Barnett4:58

      So the, the length of time you can be a competitive fighter is, you know, who knows how long? I, I guess I've seen some stats that say, hmm, over five years, it starts to decline. Over seven, or around seven, it really starts to take a nosedive.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:12

       Yeah. They say for a pro MMA fighter, it's like you have nine years to compete at a very high level.

   11. JBJosh Barnett5:16

       Hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:17

       But that's... Who's they, you know?

   13. JBJosh Barnett5:19

       And, and even then, that nine years is still more towards the tails and not-

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:22

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JBJosh Barnett5:22

       ... and not into the middle of it. And, uh, I mean, a lot of folks, you'll see 'em, you'll get to the UFC, they are there for about three, four years. And then even towards that tail end of that four years, it's like they're in... They're no longer in comp... In, in, um, the running for any of the, the major fights.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:40

       Yeah. Um, I think for people on the outside, I don't think they understand what's going on in terms of injuries, wear and tear, just the overall punishment that your body takes through the grueling sessions, training sessions-

   17. JBJosh Barnett5:52

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:52

       ... sparring.

   19. JBJosh Barnett5:53

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're, you're, you're doing untold amounts of damage to your body. And there's, of course, a matter of l- uh...... chance, uh, in terms of, oh, did somebody roll into your knee that day-

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JBJosh Barnett6:04

       ... or not, or did you- you just land a punch wrong. I mean, there's all kinds of other factors that just can't be accounted for.

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       That's why it's kinda crazy when you see a high-level fighter who's, like, training for a world championship fight, and they're in one of those, uh, group class environments-

   23. JBJosh Barnett6:18

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:19

       ... where there's, like, 13 other dudes around them. And you're like, "Jesus Christ, man."

   25. JBJosh Barnett6:23

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan6:23

       "That's so risky."

4. 6:24 – 9:49

   MMA management vs boxing management: fast-tracking, percentages, and real career building

   1. JBJosh Barnett6:24

      It- it is. And I think a lot of it stems from the origin of MMA, its-

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:30

      Wrestling moves.

   3. JBJosh Barnett6:31

      ... being derived from wrestling, from the jujitsu-

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:33

      Mm-hmm

   5. JBJosh Barnett6:34

      ... from martial arts, uh, structured, uh, elements, but also, the money wasn't there for dedicated trainer-manager types.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:41

      Right.

   7. JBJosh Barnett6:41

      So it's like, as soon as the manager construct came into MMA, and I- I say construct because I don't think most MMA managers are actual managers. They're mostly just agents. They just, they find fights and whatever, and they'll- they'll get a collective of- of other, uh, fighters under their wing so they can have some sort of collective bargaining by having these other athletes or always being able to shuttle somebody in depending on what a- a- a, uh, the UFC or some other organization might need. But they're not really overseeing someone's career.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:14

      Right. We should talk about that, like what that means. What- what you're essentially saying is they're- they're not... Like, a boxing manager will slowly build you towards a world title fight, and a UFC fighter doesn't really get that opportunity.

   9. JBJosh Barnett7:29

      Uh, no, that's true. Uh, and part of it is because, I would say, a lot of these, quote unquote, "managers" wanna fast-track an athlete into getting the money.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:39

       Hmm.

   11. JBJosh Barnett7:40

       And, uh, with boxing managers... And- and there are times where people are fast-tracked, like Lomachenko.

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       Right.

   13. JBJosh Barnett7:45

       So he was such of a high level that- that he's already being put into the- the- the big, high-dollar matchups and what have you.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       Or look at, in MMA, Jon Jones-

   15. JBJosh Barnett7:53

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:53

       ... where it actually worked.

   17. JBJosh Barnett7:54

       Yes.

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:55

       You know, fast-tracked-

   19. JBJosh Barnett7:56

       But-

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:56

       Or- or yourself.

   21. JBJosh Barnett7:57

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:57

       You're the youngest ever UFC heavyweight champion.

   23. JBJosh Barnett8:00

       True, but I- I did have-

   24. JRJoe Rogan8:01

       I take it, well, the other way.

   25. JBJosh Barnett8:01

       ... 24 fights by the time I ever hit the UFC or something like that.

   26. JRJoe Rogan8:04

       But you're still... What were you? 23 when you won the title?

   27. JBJosh Barnett8:07

       23. I was 24 when I won the title.

   28. JRJoe Rogan8:09

       24.

   29. JBJosh Barnett8:09

       Yeah, 24.

   30. JRJoe Rogan8:10

       That's still very young, particularly for a heavyweight, right?
5. 9:49 – 12:24

   Barnett as a manager: building fighters globally (Rizin, Russia, and life experience)

   1. JBJosh Barnett9:49

      Uh, yeah, I have actually been managing fighters since the early 2000s.

   2. JRJoe Rogan9:53

      No shit.

   3. JBJosh Barnett9:54

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan9:54

      I didn't know that.

   5. JBJosh Barnett9:55

      Uh-

   6. JRJoe Rogan9:55

      I knew you were training guys, but-

   7. JBJosh Barnett9:57

      Yeah. No, I- I, uh, I started off with managing Megumi Fujii's career.

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:01

      Oh, okay.

   9. JBJosh Barnett10:02

      Uh, got her her first fights in the- the US, uh, helped her turn pro, all that, and negotiated her Bellator deals, all that kinda stuff. And then I managed Victor Henry, uh, as for, like, a- a more modern, uh, athlete I'm working with. Uh, Victor Henry, he's on eight-fight winning streak. He's probably next in line to fight for a title in Rizin. He's been kicking the crap out of people in- in Rizin. He's the Deep world champion. He's beaten people up in Russia. And the thing is, you know, people are so concerned about just the UFC or the American market, which I- I get it, it is the largest market, it is the most notable and it has incredible fighters in it. But there's incredible fighters everywhere and there's also that process towards, uh, graduating a fighter up to their, to their best position and giving him the best experience for that fighter. Uh, and I was just talking to someone at the UFC the other day about Victor and he goes, "You're doing the right thing with him. You know, you're building him up, you're- you're making him the best version of himself he can be, and you're taking care of him and getting him paid." And, you know, that's- that's part of the experience, and also I try to make sure to give my fighters the experience of being around the world, seeing the world. There's nothing that will change your outlook towards being in other places, especially the more disparate from what you're used to.

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JBJosh Barnett11:20

       I took, uh, uh, I got a great fighter, uh, named AJ Bryant at featherweight and I took him all the way over to- to Khabarovsk, Russia.

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:29

       Whoa.

   13. JBJosh Barnett11:30

       And yeah, it was a real eye-opening experience but the thing was, it was eye-opening in all the right ways and he had such a blast being in such a- a different environment and- and getting to be really out of his- his comfort zone. And, uh, you know, I live to do stuff like that for my fighters as well.

   14. JRJoe Rogan11:48

       Yeah, that's growth as a human.

   15. JBJosh Barnett11:50

       Exactly.

   16. JRJoe Rogan11:50

       Which will translate into growth as a fighter.

   17. JBJosh Barnett11:52

       I- I- I don't see how it won't, especially, I think, within the, within that overall apparatus of fighting and the constant, uh-... fail, failure to succeed, uh, rhetoric. Uh, 'cause you- you just can't come out and, and immediately win at everything that you're trying to do, and you won't come out and immediately be great at everything you do.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:14

       Right.

   19. JBJosh Barnett12:14

       Some things, sure. But it's about the overall, um, path of all of this. It's about your overall growth and where you started and where you end up.

6. 12:24 – 16:08

   World-class talent everywhere now—and the rise of technique breakdown culture

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:24

      And I think if you look at the overall talent pool in the world-

   2. JBJosh Barnett12:28

      (sighs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:28

      ... it used to be that the, the elite fighters were all either at Pride or at UFC.

   4. JBJosh Barnett12:35

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:35

      That had... That's what it used to be. But now, like you see when Eddie Alvarez went over to ONE and he fought that Timothy Natsukin.

   6. JBJosh Barnett12:42

      Yes. Yes. Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:42

      Natsukin is a bad motherfucker.

   8. JBJosh Barnett12:44

      He must be if he's beating Eddie Alvarez.

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:45

      Stop it.

   10. JBJosh Barnett12:46

       He's gotta be tough as shit. Yeah. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:47

       And, and Eddie Alvarez, of course, former UFC champion, is world-class.

   12. JBJosh Barnett12:51

       Yes, he is.

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       So, to, to see him get beat down by that guy, you go, "Well, these motherfuckers are out there." And the talent level's so high. Like there's guys that get to the UFC and when they... right when they get here, you go, "Holy shit, where's this guy been?"

   14. JBJosh Barnett13:04

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:04

       Like Petr Yan-

   16. JBJosh Barnett13:06

       Hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       ... who's fighting, um... He's fighting for the title this weekend against Jose Aldo. And Petr Yan is this badass Russian dude who's fucking vicious. And when he first came over to the UFC, I'm like, "Jesus Christ, where has this guy been?" It's like you see these guys who are all over the world now.

   18. JBJosh Barnett13:21

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:22

       You know, you're seeing elite world-class fighters. And it's, it's not just the UFC anymore. Like, um, I firmly believe Douglas Lima is one of the best welterweights on the planet, if not-

   20. JBJosh Barnett13:31

       Agreed.

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:31

       ... if not the best.

   22. JBJosh Barnett13:32

       Yeah. He's got a, a... an incredible dynamism to his game.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:36

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JBJosh Barnett13:36

       And he just... He's... His, his offensive capabilities are just absolutely deadly.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:41

       Deadly.

   26. JBJosh Barnett13:41

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:42

       He finds holes. You know, I mean, for him to knock out-

   28. JBJosh Barnett13:44

       Uh, me too.

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:45

       ... Michael Page.

   30. JBJosh Barnett13:45

       But we're not talking about my-
7. 16:08 – 22:24

   Authenticity vs persona: social media motivation, Musashi, and “packaging vs the item”

   1. JBJosh Barnett16:08

      Sincerity and authenticity in anything you do. And just like we talked about the, the, the Rogan man cave, but it's not about being a man cave. This place is a, uh, a extension of everything that you're trying to create for yourself. And that is honestly, whether you have the means to create something like this or you just have the means to create something really small in your own little apartment-

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:31

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JBJosh Barnett16:31

      ... like, everything that you do should be in worship, so to speak, to what you're... the ideal you're trying to create.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:38

      Right. Yeah.

   5. JBJosh Barnett16:39

      And you can't do that if you're insincere. You can't do that if you're, if you're just trying to be the packaging and not the item.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:48

      Yeah. We were talking about that earlier that there's too many... And I think this is part of the problem with social media is that people are intoxicated with this idea of having other people think they're awesome.

   7. JBJosh Barnett16:59

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:00

      So, they, they put out all this stuff to make it look like, you know, like, they're this, uh, amazing person. And, you know, they'll put up these quotes and put up this shit. But it's, it's not really what they're into. They just want you to think they're into it, and it comes off that way. Like, you get... Like, one of my biggest pet peeves, like, and I... and I was gonna... I posted a quote last night, or not a quote rather, but an image of, uh, Miyamoto Musashi-

   9. JBJosh Barnett17:25

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       ... because I got, I got into the Book of Five Rings again and I'm like-

   11. JBJosh Barnett17:27

       I cannot wait to hear what, what just criticism somehow came out of nowhere to tell you what a, what a jerk you were or how wrong you are or whatever.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:35

       (laughs) I don't know. I don't know if there is any criticism.

   13. JBJosh Barnett17:37

       Ugh.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:37

       I didn't pay attention. But what I was gonna criticize is I was gonna say that I have an issue with... there's a, a lot of people online. It's not even that I have an issue. It doesn't resonate with me. This is a better way of putting it without being negative.

   15. JBJosh Barnett17:51

       Sure.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:51

       There's so many people that are posting motivational shit, but they haven't done anything.

   17. JBJosh Barnett17:55

       ... true. It is, uh-

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       It's this meaning thing.

   19. JBJosh Barnett17:57

       ... trying to be the, um, trying to be the packaging-

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:59

       Yeah.

   21. JBJosh Barnett17:59

       ... and not the item.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:59

       "You can do thi- if you feel that, go do this. This is, this is how you go get it. This is-" What the fuck have you done?

   23. JBJosh Barnett18:06

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:06

       You have to do something. And I didn't say this last night, but this is what I meant when I posted it. Like, if you wanna take inspiration, there's something about the words of Miyamoto Musashi that are profoundly inspirational-

   25. JBJosh Barnett18:18

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:19

       ... because he's a man who bested over 60 men in one-on-one sword fights. So, when he's talking about strategy or he's talking about technique and he's talking about preparation, and, "You must research this, you must look into this, and y- this is how you go, this is how you go about, uh, attacking, this is how, this is how you play off your opponent's strategy-"

   27. JBJosh Barnett18:39

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:39

       He's talking about life or death with a fucking sword.

   29. JBJosh Barnett18:43

       You can't get more serious than that.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:44

       And it comes through in his words, man. Even translation from Japanese to English, even though it's 400 years later, there's something about that guy that it gives me goosebumps, man, when I read his shit.
8. 22:24 – 26:13

   Seeds of truth in ideologies: Peterson, Marxism, and the “forest of bullshit” problem

   1. JBJosh Barnett22:24

      ... uh, uh, the surface level diagnosis of all these kind of thing, or prognosis. Uh, but the thing is, even as much as... You know, to, to, to put it in perspective, so I have my own journey dealing with, with, uh, Marxism, Neo-Marxism, whatever, and how it, it is, and at one point was a part of my life and just making me absolutely miserable from another person. It was like, "Fuck, why?"

   2. JRJoe Rogan22:48

      It was a person you were dating or something?

   3. JBJosh Barnett22:49

      Yeah, it was someone I was in a relationship with-

   4. JRJoe Rogan22:51

      (laughs)

   5. JBJosh Barnett22:51

      ... and it was just, like, I'm getting assaulted in a way. Uh, no, I'm not trying to say words of violence.

   6. JRJoe Rogan22:57

      (laughs)

   7. JBJosh Barnett22:57

      Calm down. Uh, I was just under... I felt like I was under attack all the time for things that I didn't do and things that I... from arguments that I had, or accusations. I'm like, "I don't understand why I am being, uh, this is being offloaded onto me," at the time. So I start researching and researching and researching because I, I truly believe, uh, essentially like, like, uh, JS Mill says, the- that, the, that... "Who, he who understands only one side of the argument, not the other, understands little of both." And so even through all this, I have to re- I had to come to the fact that as much as... If you'd wanna take that shallow, um, diagnosis of, of Peterson, it's the same as if you want to take a shallow diagnosis of Marxism.

   8. JRJoe Rogan23:42

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JBJosh Barnett23:43

      These things aren't operating out of complete falsity. They're not coming out of nowhere. They're not built upon nothing. There is truth being said in everything. Uh, this is, they're stemming from truth. So if you-

   10. JRJoe Rogan23:55

       That's such a good point.

   11. JBJosh Barnett23:56

       ... if you read Marx, there is true critiques, there's, there's true things within it. Now, where people often go wrong is, you know, they take a seed of truth and they plant a forest of bullshit.... right?

   12. JRJoe Rogan24:08

       Mm.

   13. JBJosh Barnett24:08

       So, just because you can, you can grow it doesn't mean you're necessarily, like, uh, like, think of bamboo, right? So if you put bamboo in a lot of the places, especially in, in western, uh, especially the Pacific Northwest or, or western, uh, America, it depends on your climate zones. We're not gonna get into all that. But mo- a lot of strains of bamboo will grow to the point that they just, they can't be stopped. They will grow through concrete. They will grow through asphalt. They will... So if you're gonna plant it, you have to plant it in, like, steel boxes and concrete barriers and things to make sure that the bamboo stays only where it's supposed to be. Otherwise, it's gonna be fucking everywhere and it's gonna out-compete and dominate everything else. Now, planting the bamboo, great idea. But if it goes nuts and destroys all your, your native, uh, flora, well, fuck. That wasn't so great now, was it?

   14. JRJoe Rogan24:58

       Right.

   15. JBJosh Barnett24:59

       You know? Great, I hope you like bamboo because that's all you fucking got now.

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:02

       Yeah. Like, there's truth in a lot of those philosophies in terms of they have a point.

   17. JBJosh Barnett25:07

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:07

       But then when you apply it large scale and then you take into account human nature and how humans find ways to blame others for their own shortcomings and find ways to juke the system and, and then you wind up with a mess.

   19. JBJosh Barnett25:22

       Well, it's definitely a problem if you take a, um, mostly an external look at everything. It's, it's all outside of me. It's all other things.

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:32

       Yeah.

   21. JBJosh Barnett25:32

       It's all these, these ... It's all these systems. It's all these other aspects, these external, uh, processes. And it's ... None of it is me.

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:40

       Right.

   23. JBJosh Barnett25:40

       And none of it is the individual. And none of it is, you know, the small group to the large group to the ... You know, all these things change from every vantage point, from, from the single person, to the small tribe, to the larger natio- nation-sized community. I mean, to think about the logistics it takes to keep some of these systems working and working accurately or as accurately as we can at times, something dumb like, um, I don't know, just making sure electricity gets to your house.

   24. JRJoe Rogan26:09

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JBJosh Barnett26:11

       It's enormous.

   26. JRJoe Rogan26:12

       Right. And people-

   27. JBJosh Barnett26:13

       It's unreal to think of.

9. 26:13 – 35:47

   CHAZ/Capitol Hill as a reality check: governance, violence, and unintended consequences

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:13

      ... completely take that for granted. A great micro version of what we're talking about is the, uh, Capitol Hill-

   2. JBJosh Barnett26:22

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:22

      ... uh, Autonomous Zone-

   4. JBJosh Barnett26:23

      Ugh.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:24

      ... which turned out to be a-

   6. JBJosh Barnett26:25

      It hit me hard.

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:26

      ... fucking disaster.

   8. JBJosh Barnett26:27

      Hit so close to home, Joe.

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:28

      Your own town.

   10. JBJosh Barnett26:28

       I'm a, I'm a-

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:29

       Your own town.

   12. JBJosh Barnett26:29

       I'm from Ballard.

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:30

       (laughs)

   14. JBJosh Barnett26:30

       Yeah. And, and, you know, it's so interesting 'cause like, of course it would be on Capitol Hill.

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:34

       Yeah.

   16. JBJosh Barnett26:34

       I mean, that was like our, our little Haight-Ashbury of, of sorts. Uh, but, you know, I thought Capitol Hill had, had really jumped the fucking shark a long time ago when I was reading an article about people wanting to be on Capitol Hill so bad that they were willing to live in shared apart- ... shared, shared living space scenarios where they're sharing bathrooms and kitchens and all this, and paying, like, stupid money for a room. And I don't mean a room in a house. I mean purpose-built habitation scenarios to, to do th- ... And I'm just like, "What the f- ... Why the fuck do you wanna live there that bad?" I mean, there's plenty of cool shit there, but there's plenty of cool shit all over Seattle.

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:18

       Wh- what, what was it about Capitol Hill? Because I'm not a Seattle guy. I mean-

   18. JBJosh Barnett27:21

       Mm-hmm. It was just, uh, you know, it was the, it was the gay or LGBT, I guess now, uh, as you would refer to it, epicenter. Uh, there was a lot of, uh ... There had some head shop stuff. It was just sort of a counterculture district, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:34

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JBJosh Barnett27:34

       And I remember as a kid, you know, we'd go up there and go to the weird little stores. I mean, that would be the place where you'd wanna buy some, like, crystals and-

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:41

       Uh, head shops.

   22. JBJosh Barnett27:42

       ... all that kinda stuff. It would be there. Um, but, uh, it was a groovy, very densely cultural place. And, you know, famous for a lot of things. Uh, you know, some things unfortunate, like Mia Zapata getting killed behind the Comet Tavern, uh, or ... But also for many, many great things too. But it was ... It would definitely be the place where you would see something like a Chaz pop up. It's just that there a- ... the, the, the separation from idea to reality with something like a Chaz is ... and, and it's always gonna be this case. It's always gonna be just mountains in between the two. You know? Uh, the funniest part, I think for me, is watching that altercation video with, uh, Raz and his, his, his new police stating, "We're the police now." And the guy in ... being, uh, uh, approached, uh, for graffiti-ing a building going, "Well, you know, what's up with all the guns and all the ... Why you guys got all these guns?" And this lady who's filming going, "Don't, don't worry about us having guns. Who cares about guns? Cops carry guns. Guns are no big deal." And I'm just like, "Whoa."

   23. JRJoe Rogan28:47

       You guys are-

   24. JBJosh Barnett28:48

       (sighs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan28:48

       ... doing exactly what you're complaining against.

   26. JBJosh Barnett28:51

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan28:51

       They basically made all the worst aspects of a country. They put up a border immediately.

   28. JBJosh Barnett28:57

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan28:57

       They kept people from going in. They had no medical. They had no police.

   30. JBJosh Barnett29:00

       Yes.
10. 35:47 – 46:24

    Why fighters love the fight: fear, aliveness, and Barnett’s first MMA bout

    1. JBJosh Barnett35:47

       One of the scariest things I ever did was the first time I ever sang on stage with a band.

    2. JRJoe Rogan35:51

       (laughs)

    3. JBJosh Barnett35:51

       And that was this band Nile, uh, death metal band. And so, I'm friends with them. Uh, Carl, you're- you're the man. Uh, but, uh, I'm sitting in the audience. I'm there with my- w- even with- with a- uh, my ex- my girlfriend at the time. And we're at the House of Blues in Hollywood and he literally goes, "Hey, Josh Barnett's here, this, that, and the other. But get this..." And they put a spotlight on him and they go, "He's gonna come out and help us sing Black Seeds of Vengeance." And I'm just like, "Ha ha ha ha, fuck." (laughs) You know? I don't-

    4. JRJoe Rogan36:20

       They didn't tell you before?

    5. JBJosh Barnett36:22

       No. And so I'm just going-

    6. JRJoe Rogan36:23

       Oh, no.

    7. JBJosh Barnett36:24

       ... "Okay," you know? So, at some point-... uh, yeah. By the way, uh, people, uh, f- fronting a band with a microphone, you have a, an inordinate amount of power. Be careful about how you flex it. So, I- I- I go backstage, they come grab me, I'm just waiting, and I'm breaking out into a full sweat.

    8. JRJoe Rogan36:42

       (laughs)

    9. JBJosh Barnett36:42

       All I can think of is that my throat is gonna close up and only squeaks and- and, like, weird mouse noises are gonna come out.

    10. JRJoe Rogan36:48

        (laughs)

    11. JBJosh Barnett36:48

        And I'm just going, "Oh, fuck." And I get up there and I- I- I can't hear myself. I just, I'm doing my thing. And I get offstage and they're like, "Oh, that was pretty good." I'm like ... (pants) I'm just losing my shit. And he's like, "What the ... " I go, "I have never been more scared in my entire life."

    12. JRJoe Rogan37:03

        (laughs)

    13. JBJosh Barnett37:03

        He's like, "What the ... How are you afraid of being on stage and just singing when people are trying to kill you?" I go, "H- honestly, fighting for my life feels good." Like, I- I'm not saying that that is the way most people should view things. And, and, uh, and I- I'm of the believer that if you're, if you enjoy delivering violence, if you really are into it, then you also enjoy when violence is brought to you and the escalation that comes from it.

    14. JRJoe Rogan37:30

        Mm.

    15. JBJosh Barnett37:30

        The feeling of- of, uh, I don't know, I feel like there, in your best mindset, there's a feeling of power that is derived from it. Like it, uh ... I talked to a, uh, a guy ... We're going all over the place. You might think we're already high, but, uh ...

    16. JRJoe Rogan37:44

        Did you, did you always feel like this though-

    17. JBJosh Barnett37:46

        Yes.

    18. JRJoe Rogan37:46

        ... before you go into the I talked to?

    19. JBJosh Barnett37:47

        Yes.

    20. JRJoe Rogan37:48

        Did you feel like that when you first fight?

    21. JBJosh Barnett37:49

        Yes. Uh-

    22. JRJoe Rogan37:50

        How old were you when you had your first fight?

    23. JBJosh Barnett37:51

        Uh, like, actual just fight or-

    24. JRJoe Rogan37:53

        Back when you were the Babyface Assassin.

    25. JBJosh Barnett37:54

        Oh, my first fight was 19 years old. I was on winter vacation from, uh, from the University of Montana. One of my wrestling coaches called me up. And AMC Pankration was a- a legit, was a pro gym that had pro fighters and they were out there and I knew of them, but, you know, this was 1996, so this shit was still real, uh, like, DIY sort of. There wasn't really a- a- a- an avenue towards things. And these ... I've talked to- to MMA people now. They say like, "You guys don't get it. You don't know what it was like back then." And, uh, my- my old wrestling coach, he calls me up, he goes, "Hey, I know you've been training. I know you're into this. There's an op- there's an- an opening, uh, to fight this guy, Chris Charnos, uh, on January," whatever it was. So, it was 11 days. And I go, "All right." Uh, I go, "Oh, Chris Charnos. Yeah, he fought in Super Ball. He's pro, yeah? Yeah. Okay. When? All right, 11 days? I'll be there." And that's it. I just went and I trained with a, an old martial arts coach of mine. Um, ran a little bit. You know, I was already training back in Montana over at Jim Harrison's, uh, Bushido Kon karate. You know, rest in peace, Sensei. Uh, much love. But, uh, I'm like, "Well, yeah, cool. I wanna fight." That's it. I'm standing in line to- to go through the medicals. And this other cat, he looks at me and he's this, this, uh, um ... His name is also- also Chris, and he fought on that- that card. And he goes, "So, where do you train, man?" I go, "Oh, I train over in Montana, but also, you know, trained a bunch in this, like, this church basement." And he just looks at me and he's like, "Cool." (laughs)

    26. JRJoe Rogan39:32

        (laughs)

    27. JBJosh Barnett39:33

        But later he tells me, he goes, "I thought you were gonna die. I thought this guy was just gonna annihilate you."

    28. JRJoe Rogan39:37

        Well, back in the day, there were guys that had no business being in there.

    29. JBJosh Barnett39:40

        Oh, for sure.

    30. JRJoe Rogan39:41

        You know?
11. 46:24 – 1:03:56

    Combat perspective: weapons, Ghurkhas, and why the kukri is a brutal tool

    1. JBJosh Barnett46:24

       But, uh, so, uh, it was Eric I was talking to, because he's always interested from my take on, on violence and how violence relates to humanity and how it relates to being. And I listened to his pod... He, he... His podcast with Jocko and, the... I would say, uh, I mean, it was really great. And I've never met Jocko, but I... He sounds like a really awesome dude and-

    2. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       He's the best. I'll connect you guys.

    3. JBJosh Barnett46:46

       Uh, would love to. Um, but I, but I said to Eric, I go, "One of the things that I, I saw that was kind of different here in the way that both me and Jocko seemed to a- approach this is that he's so very clinical about it, very regimented." And I understand that because if he's in a military presence, like, you, you can't just have a guy who's, you know, soaking himself in the enemy's blood and running around the battlefield screaming at the top of his lungs. That, that, that doesn't help anyone, right?

    4. JRJoe Rogan47:11

       Right.

    5. JBJosh Barnett47:11

       Like, reveling in something like this isn't really a necessity in anything, right? That is... It's besides the point. And if that's-

    6. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       Especially in 2020.

    7. JBJosh Barnett47:21

       If anything... Yeah, especially in 2020 when they went after, uh, Ghurkha soldiers, uh, Nepalese soldiers who were sent on a, a, a kill mission and to, to grab some sort of, uh, extremist. And they, like, "Well, we need... We're gonna have... W- we want proof too." So what do they do? They pull out their kukri and take the dude's head off and bring it back. And then they went and put that guy on trial for doing his job, because we thought, "Oh, that's too much."

    8. JRJoe Rogan47:46

       Too much proof.

    9. JBJosh Barnett47:48

       It's, it's, it's death and war and violence. What is too much? You know what I mean?

    10. JRJoe Rogan47:54

        Right.

    11. JBJosh Barnett47:54

        I mean, what... What if his head had gotten cut off and, you know, stuck on a pike somewhere to be like, "Don't fuck with us." I mean-

    12. JRJoe Rogan48:01

        The issue is, the problem is how it appears to people that don't live in that world, right?

    13. JBJosh Barnett48:05

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan48:05

        That's the problem. Like, if you... If, if a soldier kills someone and then they say, "We need proof that you killed that person," they bring back a head and you go, "Hey, you fucked up now."

    15. JBJosh Barnett48:15

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan48:16

        "You brought back his head." Like, "Well, what do you want me to do? Bring back a picture of him dead?"

    17. JBJosh Barnett48:20

        (laughs) Yeah.

    18. JRJoe Rogan48:20

        Like, that's not good enough. You need the head.

    19. JBJosh Barnett48:23

        Yeah. Correct, correct. And, and, and also, uh, I guess, to take on, uh, a tone that seems to be permeating the, the general, uh, sphere of consciousness in the West, oh, well, who are we to tell Ghurkas that they're not allowed to cut people's heads off?

    20. JRJoe Rogan48:37

        Right. That's their culture.

    21. JBJosh Barnett48:38

        Yeah, yeah. Don't, uh-

    22. JRJoe Rogan48:40

        (laughs)

    23. JBJosh Barnett48:40

        ... don't, don't do this, you know-

    24. JRJoe Rogan48:41

        Well, they have that crazy knife too, right?

    25. JBJosh Barnett48:42

        Uh, don't do this... Yeah, the kukri.

    26. JRJoe Rogan48:44

        Yeah.

    27. JBJosh Barnett48:44

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan48:44

        Yeah.

    29. JBJosh Barnett48:45

        I, I, I own a, a, a, a kukri from Cold Steel, man. And that thing is my, my, my, one of my prized possessions.

    30. JRJoe Rogan48:51

        Why do they shape it that way?
12. 1:03:56 – 1:08:47

    Kickboxing history and leg-kick damage: Inoki vs Ali to K‑1 era killers

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:56

       It's just such a crazy moment that they decided to actually do that match where Ali is there with boxing gloves on-

    2. JBJosh Barnett1:04:02

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:04:02

       ... and Inoki is kicking him in the legs.

    4. JBJosh Barnett1:04:05

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:04:05

       Like, th- th- what the fuck, man?

    6. JBJosh Barnett1:04:07

       (sighs) It was-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:04:08

       Wa- was Ali the champ then or no?

    8. JBJosh Barnett1:04:10

       Uh, I don't, I don't know. I don't know if he was a champ at that point.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:04:12

       I'm trying to remember, like, where he was in his career. Like, what year was that?

    10. JBJosh Barnett1:04:17

        Uh...

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:18

        It was in the '70s.

    12. JBJosh Barnett1:04:19

        I'm pretty sure about that. Yeah. Gene LeBell was the ref.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:22

        Wow!

    14. JBJosh Barnett1:04:22

        Yeah. Uh, it's some wild stuff, but, uh... But, you know, interesting enough, that was of an era where boxing still knew how dangerous wrestling was.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:32

        Hm.

    16. JBJosh Barnett1:04:33

        Because boxing and wrestling used to be really interconnected to itself and to each other. And it wasn't actually until the Marquis de Queensberry rules where they started... They got rid of kind of make it up as you go. I mean, there used to be bouts of pugilism in, in... back in England or whatever, where, okay, well, yeah, you can headbutt, you can do the... You can do whatever. And so they finally set up some sort of structure of rules.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:55

        Hmm.

    18. JBJosh Barnett1:04:55

        And then eventually, you know, gloves and other things came into play. But, uh, but even... You can go read things of-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:02

        '76?

    20. JBJosh Barnett1:05:02

        Oh, he was the reigning WBC/WBA heavyweight boxing champion.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:06

        Wow! That's crazy. (laughs)

    22. JBJosh Barnett1:05:10

        (laughs) Yeah, that's wild. Now, here's the thing. If, if Inoki would have been allowed to, uh, to use submissions and all this kind of stuff-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:05:18

        Oh, it would've been over.

    24. JBJosh Barnett1:05:19

        ... the match would've been done.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:05:19

        And he kicked his legs 107 times. Oh my God.

    26. JBJosh Barnett1:05:23

        Yep.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:24

        Wow.

    28. JBJosh Barnett1:05:26

        Oh, and here's the other thing. If Inoki didn't... If he had worn gloves, then he could've punched. But what's the point of trying to box with-

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:34

        Right.

    30. JBJosh Barnett1:05:34

        ... Ali, you know? There's no...
13. 1:08:47 – 1:15:08

    Fixing MMA incentives: rounds, judging, win bonuses, and commission accountability

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:08:47

       Right.

    2. JBJosh Barnett1:08:47

       The system is n- I mean, for me, the way I look at MMA, I go five-minute rounds, no, they don't belo- they're, it gets too sh- too short anymore.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:54

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JBJosh Barnett1:08:54

       Like these, th- everybody's too good of an athlete. They know how to game the system to go a- round by round scoring. No, y- you gotta get rid of that. You gotta get rid of the five-minute round.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:09:03

       Mm-hmm.

    6. JBJosh Barnett1:09:03

       You gotta go at least probably s- six, maybe t- ten.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:06

       Don't you think there's also a problem in incentivizing people to just win because you have a win bonus?

    8. JBJosh Barnett1:09:12

       Yes.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:09:12

       That win bonus, I do not like. I have said this from the beginning. I just don't think it's fair. First of all, if you're gonna do a win bonus, you need to do something about the judging.

    10. JBJosh Barnett1:09:23

        Yes. 100%.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:09:24

        Because you need to have a better scoring system and you need to get rid of incompetents. And then when you go to other states, you need to take control of the situation because it's-

    12. JBJosh Barnett1:09:31

        And accountability to the scoring too.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:09:33

        Yes. It's, in other states, it's dire.

    14. JBJosh Barnett1:09:35

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:09:35

        I'll give you, and I don't wanna name states, but there's been states where we do fights where I'm just going, "What? Who watched that fight?"

    16. JBJosh Barnett1:09:41

        Yeah, I hear you.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:09:41

        How was th- how was this even possible? People just get fucking robbed.

    18. JBJosh Barnett1:09:44

        Yes.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:09:45

        So if you have win bonuses and, and, you know, if a guy comes in and he's getting 50, and then if he wins, he gets another 50, you stole $50,000 from that guy by giving him incompetent judging.

    20. JBJosh Barnett1:09:57

        Yes.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:09:57

        And I don't, if you're a fighter, you gotta do your best to win. If that means take a guy down and hump him and, and, and throw enough punches to keep the referee from standing up, that's $50,000 for you.

    22. JBJosh Barnett1:10:06

        Now add in, oh yeah, by the way, you lose, we can just cut your contract.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:10:10

        Yep, yep. And then you have to start-

    24. JBJosh Barnett1:10:12

        No s- no, no security.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:10:13

        ... from scratch. Yep. Yeah, it's crazy.

    26. JBJosh Barnett1:10:14

        Yeah, it doesn't, you know, that doesn't help anybody really. And, uh, uh, I would say a better system would be to have, uh, a win bonus and a finish bonus. And the finish bonus be double the win bonus, let's say.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:10:26

        I think no win bonus.

    28. JBJosh Barnett1:10:27

        Or at least, look, I-

Episode duration: 3:02:06