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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1553 - Maynard James Keenan

Maynard James Keenan is a singer, songwriter, producer, winemaker, actor, and martial artist best known as the vocalist for Grammy Award-winning rock band Tool, Puscifer, and A Perfect Circle. Look for "Existential Reckoning", the new album from Puscifer, on October 30.

Maynard James KeenanguestJoe Roganhost
Oct 23, 20201h 33mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:02 – 1:05

    Masks, Miho the dog, and quick personal catch-up

    1. MK

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Oh, hello, Maynard.

    4. MK

      Hey, bro.

    5. JR

      Is this how you're wearing your mask now, on the wrist? That's cool.

    6. MK

      I c- I, 'cause I- I just forget to bring it with me, so if I just like hang it on my nose, I just bring it, so...

    7. JR

      This is a new move.

    8. MK

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      People will do that now.

    10. MK

      L-

    11. JR

      They will see you and they'll say, "One side of the watch, look at the other one."

    12. MK

      Look at your miniature schnauzer right here.

    13. JR

      Aw. You have a cute little dog, dude.

    14. MK

      Yeah.

    15. JR

      That picture of your dog is adorable.

    16. MK

      Yeah. She's awesome. She's out t-

    17. JR

      What's her name?

    18. MK

      ... taking a walk. Miho.

    19. JR

      Miho?

    20. MK

      Yeah. She's 15.

    21. JR

      What does Miho stand for?

    22. MK

      Uh, beauty, crest of a wave, it's Japanese.

    23. JR

      Oh, okay.

    24. MK

      Uh, deadly little Miho from, uh, Sin City.

    25. JR

      Which one was that?

    26. MK

      She had the- the swords and the- and the-

    27. JR

      Oh, right.

    28. MK

      ... and the one in her own.

    29. JR

      From the movie?

    30. MK

      Yeah, Sin City. Yeah.

  2. 1:05 – 2:40

    Puscifer’s new album: layered production, vintage synths, and the Fairlight

    1. JR

      So, we were talking about how, uh, well, we didn't talk about how the new Puscifer album comes out on the 30th.

    2. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      I listened to what is available and it sounds awesome. There's a lot of layers to that shit, man. There's all kinds of sounds coming at you from all over the place.

    4. MK

      Yeah. Matt, uh ... Normally, what happens with the- with our recording process is that I'll have an idea or Matt will have an idea and we'll just kind of set down a- a direction. For example, like, I'll go, "Mandolin, drum machine, banjo. Let's just start there and start to see what we can build on this thing." Um, and then you have an album like Conditions of My Parole. On this, he picked up, uh, an old Fairlight, and ha- making a Fairlight actually work nowadays is like-

    5. JR

      I don't know what a Fairlight is.

    6. MK

      It's this ... It's a- it's a synthesizer and you've heard it on ... You know, Peter Gabriel used it, Art & Noise, like, I think, uh, Yes, uh, might have used versions, like a Synclavier or a- or- or a Fairlight. Um, I'm gonna get that wrong and Matt's gonna just ... He's got his face in his palm right now.

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. MK

      Um, but, uh, you know, so there is very specific sounds that come out of these and it's- there's a learning curve to go with it. Um, but the cool thing is then it kinda- it kinda paints you into a s- a sonic corner.

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MK

      And then you start layering on that. And then, of course, unconsciously or consciously, you start thinking of all the stuff you heard in, uh, in the '80s, you know, uh, that- that- that was used on.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. MK

      So you start reacting in- in that way for those sounds. And then, you know, Karina coming in on top of me, adding her piece, uh, and then just that kind of- you know, that kind of, uh, three-way chest that we have going on.

  3. 2:40 – 7:03

    Why people love/hate synthesizers: ideology, “live music,” and classic examples

    1. JR

      As a non-musician, it's always interesting to see, uh, like, the way people react to synthesizers.

    2. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      There's a- synthesizers got to be one of the most polarizing-

    4. MK

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... sounds in all of-

    6. MK

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      But it- obviously, it's re- responsible for some amazing songs.

    8. MK

      Absolutely.

    9. JR

      Undeniably.

    10. MK

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. JR

      But for whatever reason, people either, uh, love or hate that kind of sound.

    12. MK

      Well, yeah, whenever, you know, when you're- have people that are, uh, like, "I don't know, man. I- I like live music, you know, totally live music." So you're big, you know ... And then you kinda wait, come back around and go, "What do you think of Kraftwerk?" "Oh, I love Kraftwerk." (laughs)

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. MK

      They- they put robots on stage and push a button and you pay money to watch, like, four mannequins play their songs.

    15. JR

      It's basically like a Chuck E. Cheese. (laughs)

    16. MK

      (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I love Kraftwerk and, you know, so- but it's funny when people don't quite make the connection of-

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. MK

      ... they don't know what it is they're saying.

    19. JR

      Well, it's- it becomes almost an ideological thing. It's like you're opposed to it because it's a- a non-cool thing or something.

    20. MK

      Yeah, yeah.

    21. JR

      Do you remember when Jump came out and everybody was like, "What the fuck has happened to Van Halen?"

    22. MK

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      "Have they lost their mind?"

    24. MK

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      "What is this, 'Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo'"? Meanwhile, one of the biggest-

    26. MK

      (laughs) Yeah.

    27. JR

      ... fucking songs they've ever put out, ever.

    28. MK

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. JR

      A- a massive-

    30. MK

      Yeah.

  4. 7:03 – 9:37

    Memory lapses, aging jokes, and the podcast nearly not happening (Jamie has COVID)

    1. MK

      ... 56, bro.

    2. JR

      Dude, I'm 53. I get it.

    3. MK

      (laughs)

    4. JR

      My, uh, my brain is... My, my memory is so inconsistent. Like sometimes it's amazing and sometimes it's just straight dog shit. Like, people I've known for 10 years, I can't remember their fucking name. It doesn't make any sense. Things that I, I know what that thing is and I (fingers snapping) can't fucking... Ugh.

    5. MK

      It's... By the way, it's good to see George over here.

    6. JR

      George?

    7. NA

      George?

    8. JR

      His name is Brian.

    9. NA

      (laughs)

    10. JR

      Oh, we should probably explain-

    11. MK

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      ... what's happened.

    13. MK

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Um-

    15. MK

      This almost didn't happen.

    16. JR

      Y- young Jamie got the COVID. Young Jamie's got a new lady friend.

    17. MK

      Oh.

    18. JR

      And the new lady friend wanted to go to a bar and young Jamie was like, "Okay." So he went to a bar and bars in Texas, they do not give a fuck out here. They, they go outside and they're on a patio and they just drink like there's no COVID. And they're bumper to bumper with people, all partying down and, uh, a few days later, Jamie thought he had a sinus infection. He was, uh, just all stuffed up and felt like shit only for a day. And then the next day started to feel better, day after that he's like, "Ah, it can't be COVID." He's like, "I know I have allergies." He has allergies and it's ragweed season apparently.

    19. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    20. JR

      Comes in, gets tested, and the only one we were concerned with is our, our employee, Jeff, our friend Jeff. And, uh, Jeff was actually fairly close to Jamie for a few minutes talking to him. Um, I never got any closer than 20 feet from him and most of the time I was about 30 to 40 feet from. As soon as I found... 'Cause J- Jamie came in first and got tested first and as soon as I found out he didn't feel well, I stayed the fuck away from him.

    21. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      I thought because I was in the room with him maybe I would have to quarantine, but the doctor said, "How close were you?" And I was like, "No closer than 20 feet." He's like, "You don't have to worry about it. Just get tested every day." And so I'm three negative tests in a row, so I'm 99%, .999% sure I'm good. But-

    23. MK

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      ... Jeff I'm a little worried about. So Jeff's not here today.

    25. MK

      Poor bastard.

    26. JR

      But we almost didn't do it 'cause I thought the protocol was I was gonna have to stay out, but they were saying no, they, they consider close contact, uh, six feet or closer for more than 15 minutes and then-

    27. MK

      No, like really close.

    28. JR

      Oh, that kind of close. Yeah.

    29. MK

      Right. Yeah.

    30. NA

      (laughs)

  5. 9:37 – 15:53

    Borat 2 and the Giuliani controversy: media hype vs. what the footage shows

    1. JR

      The other thing that's coming out tomorrow is a tape where apparently R- Rudy Giuliani tries to fuck a 15 year old, allegedly.

    2. MK

      Allegedly.

    3. JR

      Allegedly.

    4. MK

      Allegedly.

    5. JR

      He... What's funny is like apparently his take on it, and again, he's older than us so his memory's probably terrible 'cause it happened a l- quite a while ago that they filmed this.

    6. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JR

      His take on it was that he was proud that they didn't get him the way they've got other people. And the article that I was reading last night, it's h- it's... (sighs)

    8. NA

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      The death of journalism-

    10. MK

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      ... is so goddamn apparent when you read articles and then you see the actual thing and you go, "What the fuck did you just write?" 'Cause this is not what it is.

    12. MK

      Right.

    13. JR

      This is like these takes on things that are so... It's, it, there, it's, there's so much hyperbole and there's so much exaggeration and bias. Until we watch it, we won't be able to s- uh, uh, you know-

    14. MK

      Yeah. So I, you know, I'm excited-

    15. JR

      It comes out tomorrow.

    16. MK

      Yeah. But, you know, y- you have me at Borat, so-

    17. JR

      Yeah, I had Borat's the-

    18. MK

      Yeah.

    19. JR

      The... I mean, listen, uh, I still think Ali G Indahouse-

    20. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      ... is one of the most underrated comedy films of all time.

    22. MK

      It is good.

    23. JR

      Especially if you like weed.

    24. MK

      (laughs)

    25. JR

      I wouldn't recommend it this month, Sober October, but when Sober October's over, Ali G Indahouse. I, I actually bought a UK version of a VHS player because it was only available on VHS from the UK.

    26. MK

      Okay.

    27. JR

      Was it UH- VHS or-

    28. MK

      I got the, I have the-

    29. JR

      ... DVD?

    30. MK

      Are you talking about the-

  6. 15:53 – 20:15

    Maynard’s COVID story: early infection, touring, and lingering long-COVID effects

    1. MK

      Arizona's now spiking in, in, uh, supposed, uh, cases of COVID.

    2. JR

      Are they?

    3. MK

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      They were spiking for a while, but it was, uh, it was young folks.

    5. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      And it wasn't an issue. It was like young folks were getting it, but the deaths were very low. You had a bad case, right?

    7. MK

      Uh, I did have a bad... Yes and no. Uh-

    8. JR

      A medium bad case.

    9. MK

      So it was one of those... You know, I'm in Australia, we went out to dinner, uh, with my buddy, Todd, Fox, and, uh, Chris. And, uh, immediately food didn't taste right. But this is now... This is all hindsight, right? I didn't know at the time. We didn't know that these are the-

    10. JR

      Right.

    11. MK

      ... things you're looking for, like immediately.

    12. NA

      What year was... I mean, what, uh, month was this?

    13. MK

      February.

    14. NA

      February.

    15. MK

      End of Fe-

    16. NA

      So this is-

    17. MK

      Yeah, so-

    18. NA

      Oh, this is early, early.

    19. MK

      Yeah, so nobody s- you know, nobody knew what to tell ya. Uh, I immediately was sick, then I had to get on an international flight the next morning, fly to New Zealand, and-

    20. JR

      Oh, you're a super spreader.

    21. MK

      We... Yeah, I'm a super spreader. Um, yeah-

    22. JR

      You brought it to New Zealand?

    23. MK

      I br- I brought it. I brought... It was in, it was in me. Um, and I put it in you. So we got there, I was like four days in the hotel, uh, 'cause we had four days off before the shows. Um, so I was just drinking water, hot showers, taking care of myself, hot tea, uh, just trying to get through it. And it sucked. But it wasn't... But you didn't know yet that, like what, how bad this thing could have been.

    24. JR

      Right.

    25. MK

      If I had known how bad it could have been, I would have been freaking out, but-

    26. JR

      Right. You'd have probably... Yeah, that's interesting, right? Because-

    27. MK

      So we isolated pretty well. Like, I'm... You know, I w- I wore a ma- I ev- I grabbed a mask, you know, before I even got on the plane, uh, 'cause I just instinctually like just having, you know, friends that are, that are, you know, going to Taiwan and going to Japan.

    28. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MK

      Like, you just see the masks, like, "Okay, I'm probably just gonna wear the mask anyway on the plane."

    30. JR

      So this was pre awareness of COVID?

  7. 20:15 – 26:57

    Treatments, methotrexate, CBD, and diet triggers (wine/gluten)

    1. JR

      What medication are you put you on?

    2. MK

      Metho- methotrexate.

    3. JR

      You're on meth?

    4. MK

      Meth (laughs) . Um, I'm smoking meth to get through it, um, along-

    5. JR

      You look great.

    6. MK

      Um, thank you. I lost a lot of weight.

    7. JR

      Most meth heads, they get sketchy. (laughs)

    8. MK

      (laughs) It's eas- much easier to push that, like, second helping away now with the meth.

    9. JR

      Mm, right.

    10. MK

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      You got no appetite.

    12. MK

      Uh, but no, methotrexate, which is not... it's not fun to be on, um, but my wrists have cleared up. I can now... I'm back to, you know, doing stuff. Um-

    13. JR

      What is methotrexate normally?

    14. MK

      It's like a... It's for rheumatoid arthritis, but it's al-... It's, it's basically a chemotherapy basically.

    15. JR

      Whoa.

    16. MK

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      Have you tried CBD?

    18. MK

      I'm on CBD now.

    19. JR

      Have you tried CBD without the methotrexoid stuff?

    20. MK

      No, no.

    21. JR

      No? 'Cause I've had a lot of friends with C-

    22. MK

      The methotrexate goes for about... It's like a... You know, I did... I've done it for now 10 weeks. I have another five weeks supposedly I'm gonna do.

    23. JR

      Wow.

    24. MK

      But I'm gonna continue the CBD after that.

    25. JR

      What... Uh, how much CBD are you taking a day?

    26. MK

      A drop, a dropper.

    27. JR

      Just one?

    28. MK

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      I'm taking... I take 1000 milligrams a day, so it's a high dose, but, um, I find that-

    30. MK

      How, how big is that?

  8. 26:57 – 30:00

    Gifts and side hustles: olives, mead/cider, and the “workaholic” question

    1. MK

      I brought you stuff.

    2. JR

      You must... Ooh, what'd you bring?

    3. MK

      I brought you stuff.

    4. JR

      What'd you bring? Okay. Felix in Venice-

    5. MK

      We'll start here.

    6. JR

      ... is a, a must go-to restaurant.

    7. MK

      So we're gonna get to this other one in a minute, but, uh-

    8. JR

      Shout out to-

    9. MK

      You remember-

    10. JR

      ... Janet and Evan.

    11. MK

      You've heard me talk about Todd, f- Todd Fox?

    12. JR

      Yes.

    13. MK

      Yeah, so he just wrote, this is another book he just wrote, uh, for, it's like personal protection, family, uh, protection book.

    14. JR

      Oh.

    15. MK

      Awesome. We'll get to that in a minute.

    16. JR

      Okay.

    17. MK

      But I brought you-

    18. JR

      Yeah, you come prepared.

    19. MK

      I- yeah.

    20. JR

      You don't fuck around. You have T-shirts.

    21. MK

      Yep.

    22. JR

      Those, that looks like a cooler. Is that a cooler?

    23. MK

      Yeah, this is your cooler. These are your T-shirts.

    24. JR

      Oh.

    25. MK

      Um, but I brought you our olives.

    26. JR

      Ooh.

    27. MK

      All right.

    28. JR

      Olives.

    29. MK

      Couple, couple wine glasses.

    30. JR

      I realize at this studio we don't have your tarantula hawk. That's at the old studio. We must bring it back.

  9. 30:00 – 37:09

    Martial arts and body maintenance: Muay Thai, hip replacement, and injury realities

    1. JR

      Now, you've only been doing Muay Thai for how long now?

    2. MK

      Not even a year.

    3. JR

      And-

    4. MK

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      ... no problems with the hip? 'Cause you've, you had your hip replaced.

    6. MK

      No, the, I mean, there's a, there's a weird shift that happens in the hip. I got one of those little, uh, hammer thingies, drrr, you know, the little electric, uh, massager things?

    7. JR

      Yeah.

    8. MK

      So, uh, (laughs) that's weird, right? I don't know.

    9. JR

      No. Those are good. Theraguns.

    10. MK

      Uh, yeah, so-

    11. JR

      Love those.

    12. MK

      Yeah, so what happens is if I go a little too far, what's happening is my, my hip joint kinda just shifts forward a little bit and starts pinching something.

    13. JR

      Ooh.

    14. MK

      And I'll just stand on my left foot, use that hammer, grrr, (hammering sound) on the hip. Done, we're fine.

    15. JR

      You're a robot.

    16. MK

      Then get back to work.

    17. JR

      You're cy- kind of a cyborg now.

    18. MK

      Kind of a cyborg, a little bit.

    19. JR

      Now, did they give you a full hip replacement or was it just-

    20. MK

      Full.

    21. JR

      ... a resurfacing?

    22. MK

      Full hip.

    23. JR

      Wow.

    24. MK

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      What is the b- like, John Wayne Parr just got a hip resurfacing and there's videos of him 12 weeks after surgery, kicking the pads.

    26. MK

      Now, for-

    27. JR

      It's insane.

    28. MK

      They were telling me, like, I th- I can't remember specifically, but I wanna say it was three months before I actually got back on the mats. They were like, "You're not gonna want to do that for six months, but you can probably start getting back and doing some things in three months." And-

    29. JR

      That's 12 weeks.

    30. MK

      And of course, nine weeks, you're starting to get-

  10. 37:09 – 48:14

    Fighting ‘fluency’: transitions, drilling, and appreciating elite technique

    1. MK

      So, and I, you know, I'm gonna con- I'm gonna pursue that a little bit. Just I'm not gonna ever use it for anything, but, um, I just like, I just like that next level of awareness of-

    2. JR

      Striking awareness?

    3. MK

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. MK

      Uh, but the one thing I haven't done is I haven't gotten with an instructor to go, "Just teach me how to not get hit." Like-

    6. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MK

      ... just that, just that awareness of seeing what's coming and under- starting to understand the sequence of events that are gonna lead up to that strike. Then you have, of course, in the UFC, you have unconventional strikers that are g- gonna come at you from angles you didn't expect.

    8. JR

      Right.

    9. MK

      But in general, just ... And not really because I want to get in a fight, just because I want to have that extra part of my brain exercised to under ... just to action/reaction.

    10. JR

      I know, it's funny, like, if you say, "I wanna learn how to play piano," someone doesn't say, "What are you g- You gonna play in concerts?"

    11. MK

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      They don't say that. But if you say, "I wanna learn Muay Thai," like, "Oh, are you gonna fight?"

    13. MK

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Like, no, just-

    15. MK

      To mo- tomorrow.

    16. JR

      I would just like to learn it.

    17. MK

      (laughs)

    18. JR

      It's a, it's a, a skill.

    19. MK

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      It's like, you know, I'd like to learn how to do a back handspring. I, I'd like to learn how to do a lot of things.

    21. MK

      Right.

    22. JR

      It just seems like a cool thing to learn.

    23. MK

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      But that's one of those things if you, if you even say you wanna learn it, people are like ... (scoffs)

    25. MK

      Right.

    26. JR

      ... "Why do you want to learn that? What are you ... Are you gonna fight people?"

    27. MK

      Right.

    28. JR

      Like, no, it's an interesting thing. First of all, it's, it's cool.

    29. MK

      Right.

    30. JR

      You know? It's ... And it's an interesting thing to know. But, so your coach doesn't work with you on defense?

  11. 48:14 – 55:27

    Puscifer’s Arcosanti performance film: desert architecture, no audience, high pressure

    1. MK

      It's ... So, this thing we got coming up is not ... It's, it's, uh ... We already recorded it. Uh, we've, we filmed it, um, at Arcosanti. Uh, and-

    2. JR

      What is Arcosanti?

    3. MK

      Arcosanti is that, uh, is this, uh, insane, um, uh, concrete, uh, village that was, uh, uh ... I'm gonna get his name wrong. Uh, Paulo Sol- Soleri. Look that up, buddy. Um-

    4. JR

      Paulo Soleri.

    5. MK

      Paulo.

    6. JR

      Paulo.

    7. MK

      Uh, he's, uh, he was a student of, uh, Frank Roy- fr- uh, Frank Lloyd Wright.

    8. JR

      Oh.

    9. MK

      So, he built this, uh, foundry in the middle of, of the desert, um, on your way up to, uh, Flagstaff from Phoenix. It's kind of off the 17.... and it's these-

    10. JR

      For what purpose?

    11. MK

      ... uh, for, uh, bells. They make these kind of bell structures, and they make, uh, you know, so there's a kind of a school to, you can go attend, uh, to understand how to do, uh, uh, foundry work, but also concrete, just understanding these concrete structures. Um, and, uh-

    12. JR

      Hmm.

    13. MK

      ... so there's all these, all these locations, and there's, there's kind of a school there. There's, uh, there's people that come, come through and travel. Um, there you go, so there you go.

    14. JR

      D- is there an image of this place?

    15. MK

      Yeah. Look up, uh, Arcosanti. Arcosanti.

    16. JR

      How do you spell that?

    17. MK

      A-R-C-O... Arco... S-A-N... S-A-N-T-I. Arcosanti.

    18. JR

      Ho- how did you find out about this place?

    19. MK

      Oh, it's, it's right near my house. Uh, it's like an hour away.

    20. JR

      Whoa!

    21. MK

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      How fucking cool is that spot? Holy shit, man.

    23. MK

      Yeah. So, you know-

    24. JR

      That's all concrete?

    25. MK

      Yeah.

    26. JR

      Fuck.

    27. MK

      So, you know, it's good, there, the added pressure. Like, when you're playing live j- it's just a live show, there's pressure because, you know, you're playing live. But there's not a lot of pressure 'cause when it goes by, you're... The next song, don't worry about it. But when you're playing live in front of a camera, and it's gonna capture you fucking up (laughs) , that's a lot of pressure.

    28. JR

      Hmm.

    29. MK

      So, uh, we filmed a cou- like, two weeks ago, we filmed the entire album. We did all the songs in these, uh, in these structures. Um-

    30. JR

      And did you have an outdoor audience? Is that...

  12. 55:27 – 1:11:08

    Processed information and polarization: social media, echo chambers, and political exhaustion

    1. MK

      But I think that's kind of what, you know, you had those good, you had those good aunts, those good uncles, so- good friends when you were a kid that you kinda learn, there's a lot of influence you get from your parents. Obv- you know, my dad is, is, you know, my whole world as far as influence, a good influence on decision-making, right? But you also have those people around you that you should have around you, if they're positive.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MK

      That it s- should be fairly easy to see right through bullshit and get to the core of a good decision. It should.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. MK

      It should.

    6. JR

      It should.

    7. MK

      But now, with this fucking thing.

    8. JR

      Oh, the phones.

    9. MK

      It's just, it's, uh, it's very strange to, like, to, you know, the information you're getting to make that decision has been picked apart and it's all dopamine dump-

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. MK

      ... uh, charged. So you can't really... It's sensationalized. Conversations start with an argument.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MK

      Like, "I hav-

    14. JR

      "I re- I really like, I really like Frosted Flakes and if you don't like Frosted Flakes, fuck you."

    15. MK

      You must be racist.

    16. JR

      Yeah, you must be racist.

    17. MK

      You must be a bigot.

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. MK

      Um, I had, uh, Alan Levinovitz on the podcast, and he, uh, had a, a really ... He's- he's actually working on a, a book about this now. But it was, uh, a series of tweets that he put up about what we're dealing with, with social media is the same thing that we're dealing with with processed food. Processed food with all these preservatives, it fills you up, it's terrible for you. He's like, "This is processed information. This is not how human beings are supposed to proce- uh, exchange information." Right.

    20. JR

      "You're not supposed to get it in this 280-character form."

    21. MK

      It sh- it should be a full-

    22. JR

      "Faceless-"

    23. MK

      It shou- is a, a, a process you go through to digest the information.

    24. JR

      Yeah. Well, i- it should be, people are supposed to talk like this.

    25. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    26. JR

      They're supposed to... That's one of the things that people love about podcasting, it is a digital thing and you're getting it and it's kind of impersonal in a way.

    27. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JR

      But it's also kinda personal because you and I are having a personal moment and it's recorded. Like, we're in front of each other, we're looking at each other, and this is how people are suppo- and we're nice to each other.

    29. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    30. JR

      And, you know, and you say something and I consider it, we talk, and you, you get in real time to exchange information back and forth and, and, and see how the other person responds to it-

Episode duration: 1:33:04

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