CHAPTERS
- 0:02 – 3:47
Baculum banter: “dick bone” collections, coffee stirrers, and walrus canes
Joe and Steven start with a long, comedic riff on baculums (penis bones), including personal stories about collectors and using them as drink stirrers. They also dig into how common baculums are across mammals and why some species have them.
- •Joe recalls a Michigan fur buyer/taxidermist with an extensive baculum collection
- •Steven mentions black bear baculums used as swizzle sticks; Joe says he carried one for years
- •Quick taxonomy check: which animals have baculums and which don’t (humans, ungulates, etc.)
- •Idea of very large baculums (e.g., walrus) used as canes
- 3:47 – 6:30
Is it really fossilized? Testing the heavy “ancient walrus baculum”
They examine a purported fossilized walrus baculum gifted by Frank von Hippel and debate whether it’s truly fossilized. Steven cautiously agrees after a knife-scrape test, and they joke about how evolution keeps “reinventing” baculums.
- •Discussion of weight as a clue to fossilization
- •Steven hesitates to damage it but performs a small scrape test
- •Jamie fact-checks von Hippel’s biology/ecology background
- •Humor about baculums evolving repeatedly across lineages
- 6:30 – 8:28
Public land rules: bones vs fossils vs artifacts (and why arrowheads are different)
Steven explains the confusing legal distinctions around collecting items on public lands—especially National Forest and BLM areas. The key theme is that “bone” might be legal to keep, while fossils and culturally modified items become protected.
- •You can often keep antlers/bones on certain public lands, but not fossils
- •Arrowheads are considered artifacts and generally can’t be collected
- •Cultural modification (e.g., bison skull axed open) can make a find an artifact
- •Steven worries about accidentally violating rules by taking fossilized material
- 8:28 – 9:28
Reporting finds and Steven’s bison-site story from *American Buffalo*
Joe asks whether people must report archaeological finds; Steven says there’s typically no obligation, but he once cooperated with the Forest Service on a bison skull site report. This pivots into Joe praising Steven’s book *American Buffalo*.
- •No clear obligation to report, but voluntary cooperation happens
- •Steven shares a radiocarbon-dated bison skull site report experience
- •Joe recommends *American Buffalo* and notes the audiobook version update
- •Private land vs public land collection rules differ dramatically
- 9:28 – 14:54
Audiobooks and ownership: why authors often don’t read their own work
Steven describes the publishing rights system that led to an actor narrating his audiobook—and how jarring that felt. He later regained rights, re-recorded it himself, and found it symbolically meaningful as audio grew in value.
- •Publishers historically sold audiobook rights cheaply/for limited terms
- •A hired actor narrated Steven’s book; Steven found it unbearable to hear
- •After rights reverted, Steven recorded his own version and updated science
- •Broader point: audio becoming more important in modern media
- 14:54 – 18:33
Craft and focus: family life, discipline, and why writing can feel miserable
They compare creative focus across careers—writing, standup, fighting, elite sports—especially how family responsibilities and modern stressors fragment attention. Steven says he loves podcasting but hates the physical act of writing, even though he loves the results.
- •Steven: earlier in life he could focus for years on one book; now life is spread out
- •Joe: standup, podcasting, and UFC commentary reinforce each other
- •Both describe dread when editing or reviewing their own work
- •Steven notices the microphone changes his thinking and recall
- 18:33 – 37:02
Handling criticism and social media: “post and run away”
Steven presses Joe on how he deals with harsh scrutiny and whether he ever reads comments. Joe explains his rules—especially avoiding conflict at night—and why on-the-fly conversation makes “perfect phrasing” impossible.
- •Joe doesn’t read comments (especially not at night) to protect sleep and mental space
- •Criticism often targets live, improvised thinking rather than prepared statements
- •Joe compares mental performance variability to engine types (V6 vs supercharged V8)
- •Steven values constructive criticism from trusted experts vs hostile pile-ons
- 37:02 – 57:40
Podcasting’s rise: Adam Curry, skeleton crews, and authenticity vs gatekeepers
Joe traces podcasting’s short history and why mainstream media struggled to take it seriously. He argues podcasts work because they avoid executive control, heavy production, and scripted “fake” broadcast banter—preserving raw authenticity.
- •Adam Curry as early ‘podfather’ and the novelty of direct-to-audience media
- •Joe’s Spotify era still operates with a small crew; no ‘censors in the room’
- •Mainstream media discomfort with unmediated influence and huge reach
- •Joe critiques overproduced news delivery and corporate gatekeeping
- 57:40 – 1:30:50
Influence and responsibility: ‘radioactive boy scout’ analogy and Steven’s hunting dilemma
Steven frames Joe’s cultural influence as something that can ‘accumulate’ into risk, using the ‘Radioactive Boy Scout’ story. He also shares his brother’s critique that hunting media increases participation and competition, potentially diminishing the experience for longtime hunters.
- •The ‘Radioactive Boy Scout’ as metaphor for unintended scale and consequences
- •Debate: when does reach become ‘dangerous,’ even if unintentional?
- •Steven’s brother worries hunting evangelism increases pressure on wild places
- •Joe distinguishes discussing ideas from directing audiences to take actions
- 1:30:50 – 1:40:22
Election-night uncertainty: lawsuits, mail-in ballots, and media narratives
With the 2020 election still unresolved in real time, they react to shifting calls and rumors of lawsuits. The conversation widens into media bias, selective coverage, and how narratives distort context—especially around Trump and Biden.
- •Live updates: Wisconsin called for Biden; tight margins in key states
- •Questions about ‘stopping the count,’ mail-in ballot dynamics, and signature rules
- •Joe argues major outlets downplayed Biden gaffes and certain controversies
- •Both discuss how context and tone get lost in transcripts/headlines
- 1:40:22 – 1:58:37
Polarization and The Social Dilemma: digital echo chambers vs real-world civility
Steven says he feels grief and fear about America’s polarization despite positive day-to-day interactions. Joe points to social media algorithms as accelerants, and they connect online outrage to real-world unrest, homelessness tensions, and civic instability.
- •Steven: personal interactions are mostly kind; media makes the country seem ‘ripped apart’
- •Joe: algorithms feed outrage, deepen bubbles, and amplify division
- •Seattle/Portland unrest and the homeless crisis as examples of spillover
- •Discussion of homelessness in LA/Venice and lack of clear solutions
- 1:58:37 – 3:05:37
Wildness and mortality: Rinella’s Kodiak-bear scare, opossum response, and predator politics
The conversation turns from media to nature: Steven recounts a terrifying near-attack on Afognak Island while retrieving elk meat, describing a freeze/‘playing opossum’ stress response. They then discuss predator management politics—BC grizzly hunting bans, wolf reintroduction in Colorado, and the cultural symbolism around wolves.
- •Afognak Island story: bear approaches within inches; trekking poles used defensively
- •Stress responses: freezing, ‘opossuming,’ and how training affects decision-making
- •BC grizzly hunt shutdown as political vs local lived experience
- •Colorado wolf reintroduction vote, wolf behavior under hunting pressure, and ESA debates
