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Joe Rogan Experience #1592 - Bryan Fogel

Filmmaker Bryan Fogel's "Icarus" won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature in 2018. His newest documentary, "The Dissident", is an investigation of the death of Saudi Arabian "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi, murdered at the hands of his own government. "The Dissident" is now available On Demand and in theaters.

Bryan FogelguestJoe Roganhost
Jun 27, 20242h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Olympic doping, assassinations, and censored truth: Bryan Fogel reveals all

  1. Joe Rogan and filmmaker Bryan Fogel discuss Fogel’s documentary Icarus, the Russian state-sponsored Olympic doping scandal, and whistleblower Grigory Rodchenkov’s perilous life in U.S. asylum under constant threat from Putin’s regime.
  2. They pivot to Fogel’s new film The Dissident, which investigates the murder of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi, detailing how Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman allegedly ordered the killing and how Saudi cyber operations weaponize Twitter and spyware against dissidents.
  3. Fogel explains how hacked phones, troll armies, and repression at home connect Khashoggi’s murder to a broader authoritarian playbook used by regimes like Russia and Saudi Arabia to silence critics abroad.
  4. He also describes the extraordinary difficulty of getting The Dissident distributed, arguing that major streaming platforms avoided it due to Saudi financial and strategic ties, raising troubling questions about free expression, corporate power, and human rights.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

State-sponsored doping can be more sophisticated than testing regimes.

Russia’s program, exposed in Icarus, swapped urine samples, broke tamper-proof bottles, and manipulated lab databases, showing that even heavily tested athletes and countries can cheat at scale while appearing clean.

Whistleblowing against powerful states often means lifelong exile and danger.

Grigory Rodchenkov lives in secret U.S. locations with limited contact with family, no normal social life, and persistent fear of Russian hit squads—illustrating the profound personal cost of exposing systemic wrongdoing.

Authoritarian regimes use both physical violence and digital tools to crush dissent.

Saudi Arabia combines arrests, beheadings, and extraterritorial assassinations (like Khashoggi’s) with troll farms, hacked phones, and spyware such as Pegasus to intimidate critics and control narratives on platforms like Twitter.

Corporate and geopolitical interests can trump human rights in media decisions.

Despite acclaim and clear public-interest value, The Dissident was declined by all major streamers as originals; Fogel links this to Saudi investments, arms deals, and growth ambitions in the region discouraging risky content.

Twitter and anonymous online spaces are lifelines for citizens without free speech.

In Saudi Arabia, where criticizing the monarchy can mean prison or death, dissidents rely on pseudonymous Twitter accounts and foreign SIM cards to speak out and organize—making control of that platform a central state priority.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

“If you can’t catch the most tested athlete on planet Earth, what does this mean for every other athlete on planet Earth?”

Bryan Fogel

“Every day that he is alive in his mind is another day that he was gonna be dead.”

Bryan Fogel on Grigory Rodchenkov

“They don’t forget and there’s just a list, and when they feel that they can strike, they do.”

Bryan Fogel on Russian assassination operations

“We are living right now in a world where big business and money and investment take place over human rights, over freedom of speech, over freedom of journalism.”

Bryan Fogel

“With great wealth and with great power comes great responsibility… and if these business titans lose their moral compass… that’s really soul-crushing.”

Bryan Fogel

Russian state-sponsored Olympic doping and the making of IcarusGrigory Rodchenkov’s whistleblowing, asylum, and ongoing assassination risksLance Armstrong, systemic doping, and ethics in elite sportFuture of performance enhancement: genetic engineering and longevity scienceThe Jamal Khashoggi murder and Saudi Arabia’s authoritarian apparatusState-controlled social media manipulation, surveillance, and Pegasus hackingCensorship by omission: big streamers, Saudi money, and The Dissident’s distribution battle

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