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Joe Rogan Experience #1592 - Bryan Fogel

Filmmaker Bryan Fogel's "Icarus" won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature in 2018. His newest documentary, "The Dissident", is an investigation of the death of Saudi Arabian "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi, murdered at the hands of his own government. "The Dissident" is now available On Demand and in theaters.

Bryan FogelguestJoe Roganhost
Jun 27, 20242h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:37

    Olympic athletes’ reactions to Icarus and the cost of cheating

    1. BF

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. JR

      The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, buddy.

    3. BF

      Hey, Joe.

    4. JR

      Good to see you again, buddy.

    5. BF

      Yeah, man.

    6. JR

      What's happening?

    7. BF

      This is good to be in Austin.

    8. JR

      I was just here yesterday with Jordan Burroughs, uh, Olympic gold medals in wrestling. And, we discussed Icarus and he told me that he actually had to shut it off. Here, I'll let you do that, because it's very clunky. Um, he told me he had to shut it off. He couldn't handle it. Because he's an Olympic gold medalist in wrestling and he has faced people that he believes were cheating, and particularly Russians. And, it drove him crazy.

    9. BF

      So he was that pissed off-

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. BF

      ... that he literally-

    12. JR

      Well, it's his livelihood. I mean, it's everything. He's an Olympic gold medalist, he's a four-time world champion, and he's convinced that he had to wrestle against people that were cheating, particularly Russians.

    13. BF

      You know, I've gotten a, a bunch of messages since that film came out from other Olympic athletes and, um, it's been either a mix of, like, "Hey man, I'm ... Thank you so much," or, it's just like, not mad at me, just like, "What the fuck?"

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. BF

      (laughs) And then, you know, like, like, and I was actually, like, uh, invited, um ... It was the, uh, uh, the bobsled team, uh, that, when they actually disqualified the Russian bobsled team. And, uh, uh, the U.S. bobsled team was then gonna get the, the third place medal. They, like, invited me to the ceremony. I, I didn't go, but, you know, it was, uh, crazy. Crazy.

  2. 1:37 – 5:03

    Post-Icarus fallout: Russia’s data manipulation and “ban” loopholes

    1. JR

      Yeah. Well, Jordan said that the ... I guess, in 2020 and 2024, the Russians can't fly a flag. Like, they, they cannot re- ... They can't be represented. Like, they have to be individual athletes from Russia at, at the Olympics in 2020 in, uh, Tokyo. It's 2021 now.

    2. BF

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      And then 2024. Those Olympics, you can't have a Russian flag. Like, you literally can't. Because of what happened, that you exposed in your documentary.

    4. BF

      Well, that's, that's true. However, um, if you, if you followed the, the story post-Icarus with Rechenkov, is, um ... Russia was supposed to turn over this LIMS data, which was this Laboratory Information Management System data, um, in order to be reinstated into, into world sport. Um, that was part of the WADA requirements. And, um, they never basically, uh, turned it over. So, WADA basically had to go after them, go after them, go after them. They reinstate them without turning over the data. Then they turn over the data. This is now, uh, December of 2019, uh, or January. It was not that long ago, about a year ago. And when they turn over the data, they had literally manipulated all the data, and they had already got a copy of it from Rechenkov and another guy in the lab. And they literally put notes into this LIMS data basically trying to frame Rechenkov for, like, money laundering and taking bribes, and all this shit. But WADA knew that this wasn't legitimate because they had the real databases already.

    5. JR

      Oh.

    6. BF

      So, they go and they say, "Okay, now Russia's banned for another four years." Right?

    7. JR

      Wow.

    8. BF

      And, and in the meantime, Russia is putting out in the media that Rechenkov has tried to commit suicide because of, like, the exposure that he was apparently, you know, taking bribes for money, which he wasn't. Russia denies it again, and then it goes to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. This is literally just, like, a couple months ago. So, they were supposed to be facing another four-year total ban. Like, that's what WADA was recommending. Like, the entire federation is gone. And the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which is corrupt as hell, basically knocks it down to two years instead of four years, and then basically does what they did in the 2018 Olympics, which is, "Okay, any Russian athlete who hasn't tested positive can compete, but they can't compete under their country's flag." But if you saw Icarus, how would you know whether or not they were positive or not? Because they were swapping out the urine, they were breaking into the bottles.

    9. JR

      (laughs)

    10. BF

      So, it's, uh, it's like, yeah, they're kinda banned, and at the same time, they're all gonna be there. And this was looked at like a huge win for Russia. In the meantime, Rechenkov literally sits in isolation, in hiding, under protection. Um, but the guy just got asylum. So, I'm guess he could-

    11. JR

      He got asylum here, right?

    12. BF

      He got asylum here.

    13. JR

      You don't have to wear the headphones if you don't want. Are they uncomfortable?

    14. BF

      No, they just kind of were, like, echoing a lot. If there's a way to maybe take down the reverb on them or something. I li- I like 'em.

    15. JR

      They're s- they're ... Echoing? Really? Do you hear echo, echo? There's a volume control. Is that better?

    16. BF

      Yeah, I think that's better.

  3. 5:03 – 10:52

    Rodchenkov’s asylum battle and life in protected isolation

    1. JR

      Okay. Um, so Rechenkov has got asylum here in America?

    2. BF

      Yeah, so he's got-

    3. JR

      Because-

    4. BF

      ... asylum here in America, and that story is crazy, too. So, you know, uh, in, in Icarus, you see this scene where basically, like, I see him off, uh, at, at the airport. And that was July of 2016. So, we keep, you know, making the film. The film comes out August 2017. And then five months later, essentially because of the film, the IOC and the reasoned decision, uh, comes forward and bans Russia, uh, and they cite Icarus, uh, as one of their, their main reasons for doing that. In the meantime, Rechenkov is literally trying to get political asylum. And on the day of his asylum hearing, this was now a year and a half, two years ago, um-I need to get with his lawyers to get the exact date. Russia files drug trafficking charges against him in Russia on the actual day that he's supposed to go in for his asylum hearing. So what this means is that Russia had a mole within the US immigration system knowing that this was the day that Rodchenko was supposed to get his as- his asylum. And under international law, anybody who's been charged with drug trafficking, right, is basically immediately ineligible for asylum. So there's like a couple of like, you know, things that you can be charged for that basically makes it you can't get asylum. So they charge him with drug trafficking and the court then gets kicked out, and it takes him another year and a half, two years to get his asylum. And he finally just got his asylum like four, four months ago, something like that.

    5. JR

      Wow.

    6. BF

      (exhales) Crazy.

    7. JR

      And so, but he's still in hiding, right? 'Cause he's gotta worry about being assassinated.

    8. BF

      Oh, yeah. I mean, he's, (clears throat) he's still in hiding. I mean, I've, I've been able to keep in touch with the guy here and there through like basically through the lawyers, and then they'll arrange through the security and then we'll, you know, find an encrypted way to like have a conversation. And, and, um, last time I spoke to him was about two months ago and, you know, the conversation always goes like, uh, "Hey, Gregory, how are you?" And he goes, uh, "I'm alive." (laughs)

    9. JR

      (laughs)

    10. BF

      And uh, I go, "Well, that, that's great," you know. And he goes... I'm like, uh, "So how are you doing?" He's like, "Brian, Brian, I, I have to tell you." He's like, "You know, you saved my life." And uh, uh, I mean, it's, um, it's, it's heavy. It's really heavy. I mean, we've, we've tried for three years now to try to get him a dog. Because, you know, he loves dogs and he lives by himself and, you know, he really doesn't have communication with the outside world. Um, my understanding is that he'll go out, you know, for like an hour a day for a walk with like protection around him. Um, I don't know where he lives. I don't, I don't have his phone number. Um, but his security, you know, doesn't want him to have a dog because if he has a dog that means he has to, you know, go outside and he's gotta walk the dog. Um, he's not really able to communicate with his family. Um, hasn't seen his family for, you know, four years now. Uh, his wife and his kids are back in Russia. Um, so I mean, this has been a, this has been a crazy cost for, for blowing the whistle.

    11. JR

      Didn't they take his wife and his children? Didn't, didn't they take their fam- their family home away?

    12. BF

      Well, after he, uh, after he got here and then all this started to unfold, um, what I was told is that they basically like froze the assets, um, of the family. He had a, a dacha, which is like a, a summer home. And apparently they, uh, uh, they seized that and they seized bank accounts, um, and they brought in the family to interrogate them and they, uh, they took their, their passports. Um, from what I've heard, um, is that, uh, his kids have their passports back, uh, and the wife does too, but, you know, you can make the logical conclusion that they're hoping that they travel because if they then can travel-

    13. JR

      And they can find them.

    14. BF

      ... and they then go and see Gregory, right, they're gonna be able to find him. Um, but, you know, to my knowledge, um, the family has been pretty much left alone. It was, it was bad for a little bit, um, but over the last few years, um, I've heard that, you know, that, that they're okay and, you know, none of the, none of the family wants to, wants to, to come because even if they do, then that means that their lives are now in isolation, in hiding. So, uh, for them to come and basically, you know, visit Gregory or to come and, and move, you know, to be with him because he could technically get his wife here now that he has asylum. But then her life is gonna be in isolation and she's got family back in Russia, so it's, it's, uh, it's complicated.

    15. JR

      (exhales) And this goes on for the rest of his life.

  4. 10:52 – 18:09

    Putin’s reach: long-game assassinations and kill lists

    1. BF

      Well, I mean, arguably for the rest of his life. I mean, when you look at, you know, uh, Michael Surowiec of the, of The New York Times did a story, I don't remember, it was probably about a year ago, and he was looking at all these kind of like, um, murders that, that were, um, tied to Putin and Russia. And one of the stories that he came out with, um, was basically this guy who was living in the Ukraine, he was working for the gas company, right? And he, uh, uh, I can't remember if he, it was an attempted murder or... Or no, the guy gets killed and they catch the guy, the assassin, uh, who goes to kill him, and they put him up on trial. And when they catch this assassin, apparently he's got a, a piece of paper on him, it's got a, a list of names, right? (laughs) Of like basically like, you know, like, uh, kill names. And this guy who they arrest, and I know I'm botching the story a little bit and you can go back, it was, uh, uh, it was in, you know, part of the New York Times Daily. And, um, and this guy that they go and arrest, um, basically goes...... yes, uh, uh, I've been hired. I don't know why but, you know, my job is basically to, to kill these people.

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BF

      So they start going through the list and none of these people are really known. It turns out that the guy that he had been hired to kill in the Ukraine, who was now living like a normal life in the Ukraine, he had apparently helped broker weapons deal to the Chechens, right? And this was like, whatever, 15 years ago and here this guy's living this quiet life in the Ukraine working for the power company and 12 years later they come and get him. I mean, you look at the case of, uh, Skripal, you know, the guy that they poisoned with Novichok a few years in Salisbury. That was another case where, you know, the guy had-

    4. JR

      That was in England, right?

    5. BF

      Yeah, that was in England.

    6. JR

      Yeah.

    7. BF

      The guy had been, you know, out of sight, out of mind for, uh, for, for 15 years. Um, you look at even the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko in 2006, well, at the time that they actually poisoned Litvinenko with, with polonium, he had already been living in London for like seven or eight years. He had, he had fled to the UK that long ago. So the whole piece that the Michael Sherets had wrote, uh, and put forward in the New York Times was essentially that, you know, they don't forget and there's just, and there's just, you know, a list and when they feel that, that they can strike, uh, uh, they do. Um, one of the guys I've, I've spoke to a lot who I've become a good friend is Bill Browder, you know, who wrote Red Notice. Have you read, have you read Bill's book?

    8. JR

      No.

    9. BF

      So crazy. So Bill was, uh, running this thing called the, uh, Hermitage Fund in Russia and he was a American, but his parents were actually members of the Communist Party. Um, and, uh, he sets up, uh, an investment fund in Russia during the, you know, as everything's kind of becoming, uh, whatever it is, open, right? And the fund is investing hundreds of millions of dollars in, into Russia and his lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, basically uncovers this Russian money laundering fraud of something like 200 to $300 million that the government, but basically Putin, you know, was behind it, had stolen this money. And so Magnitsky basically tries to bring this forward. They murder Magnitsky and Bill Browder has now spent the last, you know, 10 years of his life, um, fighting for justice for Magnitsky's death and the way that he's done it he's, is he formed this Magnitsky Act. And the United States has it, Canada has it, countries all over Europe has, has it and they've now frozen hundreds and hundreds of millions of Russian basically assets tied to like, you know, illegal this, that, and the other. And Browder apparently is the number one on the kill list and he lives in London, um, but what is at dispute is whether or not it's Browder or whether it's Grigory Rodchenkov and according to intelligence agencies these guys kind of flip places depending, uh, you know, uh, o- on the moment, but Rodchenkov is, is certainly, um, you know, a, a high value asset.

    10. JR

      (sighs) The stress on that guy must be incredible.

    11. BF

      I don't, I don't really know, uh, how he does it because he's such a... Like, I mean, the guy that you see in the movie is, that is who this guy is. He's like so light-hearted. He's always like singing like Donna Summer. Um, I mean he's, he's a goof and yet through all this, um, he remains this incredible optimist. Um, I've got to see him, uh, two times in, I guess, the last three, four years. Uh, one was he had a 60th birthday and his security and lawyers and all the stuff arranged this secret like birthday party for him. And I went to go visit him and, and everybody who had helped and worked with him were, were there in this, you know, undisclosed location. I mean, they literally like blindfolded me. I mean, it was, it was, it was absurd. And he was so just happy. I, I think he is this guy who goes that every day that he is alive in his mind is another day that he was gonna be dead. And, um, uh, so I think he has a, it, it's hard to understand but he, he just has a different way of looking at life I think than, than I do, than you do, than like 99.9% of people on the planet do that he, he wakes up in the morning and goes, "I, I should be dead." And, uh, and so I think he just, um, um, lives with a different, um, gratitude set in his mind.

    12. JR

      But what does the guy do? What does he do? He just hangs arou- ... I d- so I guess the government takes care of him? They give him food and he's just protected by guards all the time?

    13. BF

      Well, that, that's, that's become, uh, a little bit complicated because, um, uh, you know, there's a, a combination of private security and government, but, you know, government only will, you know-

  5. 18:09 – 25:13

    Reintroducing Icarus: how Fogel’s ‘doping experiment’ became a geopolitical scandal

    1. JR

      I should, we should stop right here and I should explain to people that don't know what we're talking about that Grigory was the guy who in, in your documentary you did a race, you tried to do a r- in Icarus, which is an amazing documentary. If you haven't seen it, I recommend it highly.You did a race clean and then you were gonna do a race all juiced up. And you went to him and he was the head of the Russian Anti-Doping Federation, is that what it is?

    2. BF

      Yeah. So, so Gregory Rodchenkov, um, ba- basically the premise was, um, is, is I, I felt that the entire doping system in sport was a fraud. And, and the reason why I, I, I had this belief was, is I had, I had followed Lance Armstrong my whole life. The guy confesses in 2013, but if you had actually followed that story, it's kind of like what you're saying about, you know, Russia's banned from the Olympics, but they're not really banned and they just can't wear their outfit. Well, in the case of, of, of Lance, well, yeah, he confessed to doping, but the guy to this day never was actually caught. And here's this guy who'd passed, like, I don't know-

    3. JR

      Hmm.

    4. BF

      ... five, 600 tests. So as he confesses and I'd been a cycling fan, a l- lifelong cyclist, I'm going, "Wait, wait, wait. Um, you caught the guy based on a, a criminal investigation, but you didn't catch him based on the science. And if you can't test the most... And if you can't catch the most tested athlete on planet Earth, well, what does this mean for every other athlete on planet Earth?" And so the idea was is I was gonna do like a Super Size Me in the world of sp- uh, in the world of, of, um, sport. I was gonna race clean and then the next year I was gonna dope the hell out of myself. Take testosterone, HGH, EPO, I mean, uh, HCG, uh, I was up to do anything (laughs) . I mean, I was, I was literally like injecting myself with like, you know, it was like, uh, 10 syringes a day. It was just so stupid and, uh, and then literally like I'm going and getting blood tests to like build my, uh, biological passport, to like test my hematocrits. So like every other week I'm literally going to get my blood draw and I'm pissing to like, you know, build like my whole steroid profile to basically try to evade testing. So I get connected to this guy, Gregory Rodchenkov, and at the time he's running RUSADA, which is the, uh, I'm sorry, the WADA Lab, the World Anti-Doping Lab, uh, for Moscow, which is like the third-largest, uh, you know, anti-doping lab in the world at the time. Uh, this is now, uh, 2014, 20- 2015, and Gregory basically is like, "Yes, I'll, I'll help you dope and I'll help you evade testing and, uh, I'll basically show you how you can game the system." (laughs) And I'm like, "This is nuts." Like, the guy who just did all the testing for the Sochi Olympics and is running the entire anti-doping lab in Russia is basically gonna like test my samples and show me how to cheat? Like, what's going on here? So the two of us start working. He comes to the United States, he comes to Los Angeles. We have a great time, I then go do this next race completely doped out of my mind and I'm like taking blood samples, I'm taking urine, and right after this race, I hop on a plane, I go to Moscow and I'm like hanging out with Gregory for like a month. And he takes all my samples into the lab and there was this investigation already going on and I was like, "Okay, something's off here." And so I spend this month in Russia and I come back, uh-

    5. JR

      What was the investigation that was already going on?

    6. BF

      So in, uh, in the... In 2015, um, WADA releases in the... I can't remember exactly when it was. It was like early, uh, like March of 2015, something like that. The World Anti-Doping Agency had already been investigating the Moscow laboratory and they come out with this, uh, with this report that they believe that Gregory Rodchenkov was like the mastermind of this (laughs) spa- state-sponsored doping operation. And they've got a bunch of evidence, but they had no idea. It was like... I mean, they had like literally like the tip of a pinky and, and the size of the scandal was basically, you know, (laughs) like an entire, an entire body. I mean, and they literally just had the tip of the pinky. But the tip of the pinky was so bad that they shut down the Moscow lab, Gregory is now the fall guy, he's forced to resign and, you know, and Putin's basically on television going like, "Look, look, whatever you want to believe, none of this is true. We have never doped, we don't cheat. These are all lies. Oh, and by the way," he says, "anybody who is responsible for this crime will be punished." So basically Putin is literally on television going, "Gregory Rodchenkov is, is going under the bus." And Gregory is in Moscow and we had, you know, been working together. He calls me up and he's like, "Brian, Brian, I need to escape." And I'm like, "Um, uh, o- okay. When, when?" He's like, "Now. I need to leave now." And I'm like, "Uh, like, like now? Like as in now?" He's like, "Yes, yes. I need a flight now." And I'm literally sitting there on Skype and I start doing a search for Moscow, Los Angeles and I'm like, "Um, well, uh, there's, there's a flight in like, uh, uh, 12 hours." And he's like, "Okay." I'm like, "You want me to book that flight?" He's like, "Yes, book the flight. If I put it on my credit card..." "Well, no, you'll have to put it on your credit card." So I literally book this flight, put it on my credit card, and a day later here's Gregory in Los Angeles and about a month into him being in LA and, you know, shit's going down in Russia, I'm like, "Look, man, you, you got to tell me what happened." And he opens up.... and, you know, and that's- was Icarus. I mean, it was-

    7. JR

      It's amazing.

    8. BF

      ... it was, it was crazy.

    9. JR

      The way it-

    10. BF

      It was crazy.

    11. JR

      ... unfolded in the documentary, it's, it, it couldn't have been written better. Like if it was a drama, if it was a scripted drama, it could not have been written better. And the fact that it was all just circumstance, just all happened, all happened at the right time, it was- it's an amazing documentary. And for a person like Jordan Burroughs, who was here yesterday, it, it was too much. He literally had to shut it off. I told- I convinced him to watch the rest of it. I go, "You have to." I go, "It's so good. It's so crazy."

  6. 25:13 – 28:33

    Lance Armstrong, broken testing, and why ‘science’ didn’t catch the biggest cheater

    1. BF

      It's, it's one of these things where I think if you were a professional athlete or, or a lover of sport, um, it, it changes your whole perception, because I think we were able to accept whatever. Lance Armstrong cheated, but we can still look at Lance and go, "Okay, the guy did win seven Tour de Frances. The guy everybody else was cheating. They were all cheating."

    2. JR

      All cheating.

    3. BF

      And so in my mind, you know, I might catch shit for this, in my mind, Lance won fair and square. Everybody was cheating, all of his teammates were cheating, everybody that I talked to admitted to cheating. And the funny thing is like, all the guys who raced with Lance during that generation, and I mean basically all of 'em, like, you go and talk to them, and they go, and all, and, and this is what half of Icarus was before I, before I pivoted was like, "Did Lance win fairly?" And they're like, "Yes." "Did he win seven Tour de Frances?" "Yes." "Was he a cheater?" "Yes." "Were you a cheater?" "Yes." "Is Lance the greatest cyclist to ever live?" "Yes." And I went, "All right. That, that's enough for me."

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. BF

      I mean, you know, the guy who got second place, third place, fourth place, fifth place, tenth place is all going like, "Hey, the guy won, and he won fair and square?" I go, "All right, Lance is redeemed." You know? (laughs) But you know-

    6. JR

      That's crazy.

    7. BF

      ... not to validate any of the other stuff that he did and the lawsuits and all that stuff, but-

    8. JR

      That's where it all went sideways-

    9. BF

      But-

    10. JR

      ... for, for most people. I-

    11. BF

      That's where it went sideways.

    12. JR

      'Cause everybody knows that everybody cheated. It- like, the general public is aware that cycling's a dirty sport. And they're also aware that if you take ... Most people know that if you take away the gold medals or any, any medal from in- from Lance, and you try to find someone down the line who didn't test positive, you have to get to 18th place.

    13. BF

      Or 100th place.

    14. JR

      (laughs) It's crazy.

    15. BF

      I mean- (laughs)

    16. JR

      It's crazy.

    17. BF

      ... you know, that was, and that was kind of Lance's argument all, um, all along-

    18. JR

      Yeah.

    19. BF

      ... which was-

    20. JR

      The lawsuits were the fucked up part.

    21. BF

      Which is, yeah, that he was basically became the scapegoat-

    22. JR

      Yeah.

    23. BF

      ... for a broken system. But it was, and I think Lance would tell you the same thing, I mean, it was the way that, that he handled it that got him in trouble, and that he never knew when to say when. And you know, that breaking point was when Floyd Landis, the guy who had been his teammate in 2000 through all- many years of his career wins the tour in 2006. And he gets caught for, for doping, denies it, denies it, denies it. And then he serves his suspension, comes back, and Lance has come out of retirement, you know, the, the, the great hope, you know, 'cause the cycling ratings, nobody gave two shits about cycling the second Lance retired. So he comes back, and Floyd is like, "Hey, man, um, I've been silent. I never ratted you out. I served my time. Uh, shit's really fucked up. I'm broke. Dude, let me on your team." And Lance was like, "Uh, no, bro, you're a doper." (laughs)

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. BF

      And, uh, and that is I think what-

    26. JR

      Dilemma.

  7. 28:33 – 38:08

    ‘We doped almost everyone’: scale of the Russian program and the cheating mentality

    1. BF

      ... uh, what, what was the, uh, what was the, uh, start of, uh, of the downfall. But, but I think what's so shocking about, about Icarus is, is and, and the Russian doping scandal, and probably for your buddy who was a wrestler, is when you, is when you go, "Wait, wait. Um, every sport? Every Olympic medal? Wait. They were ... What were they not doping in?" And Gregory's like, "Oh, well, well, we didn't dope the, uh, figure skaters."

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BF

      I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, "Well, why not the figure skaters?" He goes, "You know, because, you know, the testosterone and this, it, it make the girls, uh, too big, uh, too muscular. And, uh, you know, we found the fine motor skills were not as good with the steroids." I'm like, "Well, okay, what, what else didn't you dope?" He's like, "Uh, you know, just pretty much all of 'em, just the figure skaters." (laughs)

    4. JR

      So it was only figure skaters they didn't dope.

    5. BF

      And apparently, um, I would have to go back and do my fact checking. There was a few other, like, you know, like, um ... I mean, I think, I mean, they were like even doping like the curling team. I mean ... (laughs)

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. BF

      You know? It was like ... You know, it was ... (laughs) I mean, it, I mean, you know, the, and he said, "You know, how you going to out-cheat us? We're Russian. We're the best cheaters in the world." And, and, but, but the way that they looked at it and the way that, you know, the, uh, I think it's just that, that kind of Russian mentality is, is he never really saw it as really doing something wrong. He saw it as that everybody else was cheating too. And so this was just a game to out-cheat everyone else who was cheating. And I, and I think that that probably comes from the mentality of Russia before the fall of communism, which is this survival mechanism. And even if you look at modern Russia, um, which, you know, I, I, I love Russians. I, I love Russia. Um, unfortunately, I don't think I can go back there. But, I mean, I, I just, uh, I love the culture. And-

    8. JR

      Could you imagine going back there how paranoid you'd be?

    9. BF

      I heard a crazy story, um, couple years ago. I'm not gonna tell you who, so buddy of mine who's, who's Russian. Um, and he lives there, well-known guy, and he calls me up and he goes, "Brother, um, so I just got back to, uh, Moscow, and, uh, I leave the airport and I'm, um, I'm in my car, um, and I get pulled over by, like, a unmarked police car. And I'm sitting there going, 'Okay, what- what's the problem?'" And the officer says, "W- w- wait right here." And he comes back to the car and he shows me a photo of you, and he goes, "Do you know Bryan Fogel?" And I said, "Well, yeah, I mean, I, I know him. I mean, we're acquaintances, we're... don't really know him that well. We're Facebook friends." And the guy gave me his card and told me that the next day that I had to show up for, like, basically a, a meeting, which I guess, you know, arguably was, like, the FSB. And, um, my buddy told me that he essentially, 'cause he's a, uh, a, a pretty well-known successful guy there, basically made some calls and was like, "What the fuck is going on?" And, uh, and, uh, they... he didn't go in, and they, they let it go. But, um, what was nuts is that it took him a year after that happened to tell me that that happened. And, um, and I've g- uh, been working on some other projects and it's interesting the story in Russia, like, if you speak Russian and you're, like, pulling archival news footage, I mean, there's been so much on, like, me, um, and there's, like, crazy animations they've done with Rodchenkov as they paint him as, like, this crazy person living in an asylum, working for the CIA. I mean, Putin himself, uh, like a- a year, year and a half ago at his State of the Union address, you know, said that Rodchenkov was basically working for the CIA and that they had drugged him to get confessions from him, and that the entire doping operation was a ploy, uh, to basically, uh, try to stop him from getting elected, and basically played the, uh, the, the election playbook that this was US intelligence, uh, agencies trying to disparage Russia and that Rodchenkov was a pawn. I mean, it's, it's that crazy.

    10. JR

      Whoa.

    11. BF

      That crazy.

    12. JR

      So you're not going to Russia? (laughs)

    13. BF

      (laughs) Um, you know, uh-

    14. JR

      I mean, obviously your documentary put more light on it than the initial investigation would have. I mean, without your documentary, it, it, it, it never would've b- m- the, the amount of people that watched that documentary, I know it's in the millions. And it was a huge hit for Netflix.

    15. BF

      I was told, um, that there were... that it's had 700 million views.

    16. JR

      What? (laughs)

    17. BF

      (laughs) That's so crazy.

    18. JR

      Well, it makes sense. I mean, it's an international story when you're talking about sports and the Olympics. It's one of the biggest sources of national pride for these countries to win the Olympics, to win a gold medal in Olympics, to have their team or their athlete win a gold medal in the Olympics. And to find out that Russia had rigged the entire Olympic Games for their athletes.

    19. BF

      For decades. (laughs)

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. BF

      Like, not just, like, one or two Olympics, but, like-

    22. JR

      Yeah.

    23. BF

      ... all of them. There's, uh, uh, we're, we're, uh... there's a story that when Russia went to the Olympics in, in Korea, I think this was like, uh, 1988, like, Korean games, um. They basically took a, a passenger cruise ship and they had all these wealthy Russians on the ship. I mean, this is before the fall of Russia. And Rodchenkov was on the ship because all the athletes were on the ship too, and they had the whole doping lab set up on the ship, and they literally... There was a coffee bar on the ship, and they were able to put their, uh, Hewlett-Packard basically steroid detection devices. They look like espresso machines in, in the coffee bar, so that Rodchenkov could basically test the athletes and because the athletes were basically with all the other Russians and they basically argued that it wasn't safe for the athletes living on, uh, you know, in the Olympic Village, uh, that the athletes were able to live on this ship during the '88 Korean games and Russia, like, swept the games. The United States came third. And this was another one of Gregory's very, very proud moments-

    24. JR

      (laughs)

    25. BF

      ... (laughs) in, in, in his life. Oh, and-

    26. JR

      Oh my god.

    27. BF

      Oh my god, these stories just go on and on and on and on and on.

    28. JR

      Well, Jordan Burroughs thinks they're still doing it. He's, he, he lost to a Russian in 2016 in Rio, and he, he said on the podcast yesterday he believes the Russian was on some shit.

    29. BF

      Well, i- i- i- i- i- it's, it's plausible because (clears throat) in the film there's this guy, um, Nikita Kumaev who was running RUSADA, the Russian Anti-Doping Agency. He's murdered in February of 2016. This was Gregory's best friend, and this was basically two months before we go to the New York Times with this story. And that decision for us to, you know, ultimately go to the New York Times, which we had planned to do, but once Nikita... uh, once Nikita was dead and we were going, "Okay, we, we gotta protect our guy. We gotta bring this public."... we gotta, uh, we gotta get him into protection. You know, this is really, really dangerous. Um, and so Nikita was running, uh, RUSADA. And as Russia gets reinstated into sport, they bring on this new guy. His name's Yuri Ganous. And Ganous is like, "I don't work for the state. I'm independent. I'm not corrupt. Nobody's gonna corrupt me. I'm gonna say it how it is." So, over the last two years, Ganous has been running RUSADA. And Russia's kept pulling their tricks and Ganous has come out publicly going, "This is, this is what's going on." Uh, so about three months ago, um, Ganous was forced to resign. They tried to frame him with money laundering, uh, and bribery. Um, you can go and follow this story, uh, because Ganous was basically coming out and going, uh, "Hey guys, thing, thing, things are still fucked up." Um, so who's running RUSADA now? Who knows? Um, uh, the game continues.

  8. 38:08 – 40:18

    The next arms race: genetic engineering, CRISPR, and engineered ‘super athletes’

    1. JR

      So, how do they skir- I mean, if they're not doing what they did in Sochi where they're taking the dirty urine out and replacing it with clean urine, how are they manipulating the testing results?

    2. BF

      Well, I- I- I don't know and I certainly wouldn't wanna be, you know, leveling false accusations.

    3. JR

      Right.

    4. BF

      Um, all that I know is that in like the two years that they shut down the laboratory, right? Well, who was doing the testing then? Like, um, you know, according to Gregory, it's like, you know, uh, that there's been an, uh ... Because it's been s- in total disarray, it's actually, you know, become easier in some ways. Um, on the other hand, I- I view it as just kind of a continual cla- cat and mouse game. You know, that, okay, great. You know, you figure out how to test for one substance. Well, there's another substance. Um, if it's not that, it's gonna be, you know, genetic engineering and doping.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. BF

      It-

    7. JR

      I talked to Jordan about that yesterday.

    8. BF

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      I said, "I'm really concerned about that. I think that's the future." And I think the United States is not gonna do it, but I think China and Russia and some other places are gonna do it. They're gonna do some genetic engineering on their athletes and we're gonna have, you know, a fucking giant team of LeBron James's. Uh, perfect athletes.

    10. BF

      That'll be something to watch. I would watch that.

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. BF

      (laughs) I mean- (laughs)

    13. JR

      Who wouldn't?

    14. BF

      I mean, that- that actually, that actually sounds pretty cool.

    15. JR

      It does sound pretty cool.

    16. BF

      I mean, that sounds like gladiator games or something. I mean, I- I gotta tell you, I mean, you know, the flip side of that is, I mean, that'd be amazing, you know.

    17. JR

      Right.

    18. BF

      Just a team of just perfect specimens-

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. BF

      ... all genetically engineered-

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. BF

      ... to like battle each other. That's like, that's like Terminator stuff.

    23. JR

      It ... Well, I think it's the future. I really do. I mean, with CRISPR and the upcoming iterations of it, whatever, you know, future innovation comes forth with genetic manipulation, I think they're gonna be able to turn on genes, turn off genes, edit things, make it so that you really have the best of all worlds. And including intelligence and- I, I mean, even maybe possibly discipline. I mean, they might be able-

    24. BF

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      ... to engineer discipline into people. It's just crazy.

  9. 40:18 – 49:40

    Longevity tangent: billionaire biohacking, ‘live forever’ projects, and reality checks

    1. BF

      Dude, they alre- they already are. I actually developed this, uh, docuseries that I just, um, uh, we- we- we went out and sold it, and I just haven't had the time to go and put the time into it. But the whole concept behind, uh, the show was really that. Like, this, uh, exploring firsthand these frontiers in, you know, uh, performance enhancing, but it's really more human evolution, which is, you know, you've got so many guys out there, whether it's, um ... What's the guy, Dave Asprey or whatever, Bulletproof Coffee? Um, um, or, uh, who's the- the guy who just got, uh, under all that trouble? He was living in Bermuda. Um, Peter ... What was his, what's his name? It's a crazy story. He's like this, uh ... Peter Nygard who, uh, is now caught up in all this Me Too stuff and all this stuff. But he has like an island in the Caribbean. It's basically like genetic mutation island-

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BF

      ... where he spent hundreds of millions of dollars basically to get himself to live forever.

    4. JR

      Oh, Jesus.

    5. BF

      And, uh-

    6. JR

      How old is he?

    7. BF

      79.

    8. JR

      79? What does he look like?

    9. BF

      79. (laughs)

    10. JR

      Let me see what he looks like.

    11. BF

      Yeah. (laughs) Look at this guy, Peter Nygard.

    12. JR

      Give me a picture of him. I wanna see a jacked 79-year-old.

    13. BF

      He is ... Uh, I- I found a good picture. Here you go.

    14. JR

      Did you?

    15. BF

      Yeah.

    16. JR

      Let me see.

    17. BF

      (laughs)

    18. JR

      (laughs) There he is, there he is. Is he 79? That's amazing.

    19. BF

      Yeah, I guess he's spending Christmas-

    20. JR

      Wow.

    21. BF

      ... in jail. But-

    22. JR

      Is he?

    23. BF

      Yeah. Uh-

    24. JR

      What is he going to jail for?

    25. BF

      I don't even-

    26. JR

      Jesus Christ. He's odd-looking.

    27. BF

      I don't know. But this guy literally has spent like hundreds of millions of dollars.

    28. JR

      Fashion mogul Peter Nygard pleads for bail citing allergy to sugar. (laughs)

    29. BF

      (laughs) One day ago.

    30. JR

      Allergy to sugar?

  10. 49:40 – 53:01

    Pivot to The Dissident: release details and why major streamers wouldn’t touch it

    1. JR

      Yeah. Let's transition, because, uh, terrifying documentary. And maybe, um, equally disturbing was the difficulty in distributing it. Um, Icarus won Academy Award, right? Uh, multiple awards. More, more than one award, not just the Academy Award.

    2. BF

      Won the, uh, Academy Award in 2018. Uh, won the, uh, Edward, uh, Edward R. Murrow Award for journalism. Uh, was nominated for three Emmys. Uh, I was nominated for the Director's Guild Award, nominated for the BAFTA, uh, the British Academy Award, and, um, won, uh, two awards out o' Sundance. Uh, bunch of others.

    3. JR

      Yeah. And it's really good. I mean-

    4. BF

      Thank you.

    5. JR

      ... uh, and I've said that multiple times on the podcast without you being here, so I'm not just kissing your ass. (laughs) It, it's really good. It's, it's jaw-dropping. Um, so you would think that, uh, another documentary coming from Bryan Fogel would be well-received, especially one that's as good as The Dissident. But you're, you're having a really hard time distributing this.

    6. BF

      Well, uh, The Dissident, uh, actually releases, uh, today, uh, January 8th, on video on demand. So, it's, uh, it's, uh... Oh yeah, you can enter the site there.

    7. JR

      In theaters and at home on demand. Um, is it on iTunes?

    8. BF

      It's on, uh, it's on iTunes, Comcast, Charter, uh, Vudu, Xbox. Um-

    9. JR

      But not Netflix?

    10. BF

      Um, yeah, there it is. Fandango, Amazon Prime. Um-

    11. JR

      Oh, it is on Amazon Prime.

    12. BF

      Yeah, but, but you have to... Well, not Amazon Prime. Uh, Amazon, you had to rent it. So basically, it came out today, uh, for rental or for sale, but it's not on, you know, any of the streaming platforms. It's not on, uh, anywhere where you would have, um, you know, a subscription. And-

    13. JR

      But iTunes, you can get it on a s- th- that's a streaming platform. So you can buy it off of Apple.

    14. BF

      Yeah, you can, you can rent it, you can rent it today for, I think it's $19.99. Um, and you can... There it is.

    15. JR

      There it is.

    16. BF

      Redbox, Microsoft, Vudu, Fandango.

    17. JR

      But it says Prime Video.

    18. BF

      Yeah, but if you click on it, it's, uh, it's, it's a rental.

    19. JR

      Oh. But you could still stream it, then.

    20. BF

      Yeah, there it is. Rent. Yeah.

    21. JR

      But you can still stream it.

    22. BF

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      But it says buy. Check it out.

    24. BF

      Um, yeah. You could buy it for 25.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. BF

      You can stream it for, for, or rent it for $19.99. But it's not, it's not on Netflix or on, like, Amazon Prime as, as part of their subscription, uh, base. So meaning, like-

    27. JR

      Oh, you don't get it for free.

    28. BF

      Exactly. Like, like if you're, if you go on Netflix, everything is-

    29. JR

      Free.

    30. BF

      ... you know, part of your subscription. Or if you go on, let's say, Apple, right?

  11. 53:01 – 1:00:18

    Khashoggi’s murder: evidence trail, audio transcript, and the alleged chain of command

    1. BF

      Well, uh, what, what happened, um, with, uh, with The Dissident, um, is, you know, the, the film is kind of the untold story, uh, behind the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. You know, the, the Washington Post journalist walks into the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul in October 2018, and, uh, is murdered. Uh, I mean, just the most horrific, ghastly murder. Um, they, uh, he walks into the consulate. Um, they basically, you know, strangle him, start embalming him as he's alive, uh, and kill him, and then dis-

    2. JR

      They were embalming him while he was alive?

    3. BF

      Yes. Because they wanted the blood to coagulate, because they then dismembered him and cut him into pieces to get him out of the consulate.

    4. JR

      (sighs)

    5. BF

      And, uh, you know, and this was ordered by Mohammed bin Salman. The, you know, the, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

    6. JR

      That's proven, that he ordered it?

    7. BF

      Well, yeah. I, I think we have to go and say, do, do we believe the CIA? Uh, do we believe British intelligence, French intelligence? Uh, do we believe Turkish intelligence? Um, uh... Turkey, um, there was a listening device in, in the consulate. Um, we don't know how the consulate was bugged, but it was bugged. And so, the entire audio of Khashoggi's murder, and even the planning of his murder, uh, was captured by the Turks. And, um, um, I obtained the, the transcript as part of making this film. And there were independent investigations conducted. Agnes Callamard of the UN. Of course, the Turks. CIA. And all of 'em concluded with a very, very high level of confidence that MBS, uh, ordered the murder. Um, and if you understand how Saudi Arabia works, right? I mean-This is considered an absolute monarchy. This is an authoritarian regime, right? And you have probably 90%, you know, and I'm making up this statistic, but something of the entire wealth of a country controlled by one family. So, the idea that you could send 15 people on private jets owned by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, traveling on diplomatic passports, people in the kill team... Uh, one of the guys was, uh, Mutreb, who was Mohammed bin Salman's, you know, personal security, head of security. Uh, other guy was Al-Tubaji, who is the state forensic examiner and coroner, who came with a bone saw. Uh, another guy, al-Asiri, is one of the top-ranking generals, um, and the list goes on and on. And, and so the idea that you could have this carried out without the approval of the Crown Prince, um, would be staggering to believe. I mean, it- it- it's- it's- i- it's next to impossible, because who else would order this crime? And especially when you're dealing with a, with an absolute monarchy, um, anybody who did this without that sort of permission, right? I mean, (laughs) you're, you've had... This is, uh, you know, Saudi Arabia carried out 800 beheadings last year. So, uh, talk about off with your head. Um, uh, it's- it's unfathomable to think.

    8. JR

      800 beheadings?

    9. BF

      Yeah. A- and most of these, uh, most of these beheadings, um, were, um, of, uh, essentially dissidents or activists. I mean, you have, you have a society that on the outside Mohammed bin Salman has spent hundreds of millions, uh, if not billions of dollars to promote this image as a great reformer. And on one hand, he is a reformer. He's a young, I think he's 33 years old now, uh, prince, and he's starting to open up the country for tourism. Um, there's concerts. He's been trying to get big musical acts there, Formula One racing, uh, movie theaters. All of this was never in Saudi Arabia before. On the other hand, this guy, um, as part of his, uh, I don't know what you want to call it, consolidation of power, um, has cracked down on dissent and freedom of speech and freedom of opinion and freedom of journalism unlike any other, you know, uh, previous monarch. And Jamal Khashoggi spent most of his life working for the Saudi royal family as a journalist, right? And he was going back and forth from Washington to Saudi Arabia, uh, Saudi Arabia to London, and basically helping facilitate, you know, US-Saudi relations, writing about the kingdom, writing about policies. He was fluent in English. He was educated at Ohio State University, had a, you know, an apartment, a condo in, in Virginia, right, you know, r- right outside of Washington, DC. Um, and he essentially spent his life working for the royal family. And so Mohammed bin Salman comes into power, and Khashoggi is essentially writing, um, "I love the Crown Prince. I- I- I- I love my country, but I'm seeing that what is happening in this country is... On one hand, there's a lot of positivity, and a lot of good things are happening, and on the other hand, his friends are being arrested, uh, for simply having a freedom of opinion, uh, activists and anybody who literally was not supporting Mohammed bin Salman." And when I say not supporting, um, there are multiple stories of just a celebrity, a well-known journalist, a well-known person who had a huge Twitter follower, and if he wasn't willing to consistently post how great Mohammed bin Salman, you know, uh, is or was, this guy was literally arrested. So, um, the government basically, you know, went to all of their known figures and said, "You have to support the Crown Prince, and if you don't," (laughs) like, "you're basically gonna go to, go to prison." And so, uh, he's-

    10. JR

      What do you mean they had to support him? Meaning, like, they would tell them when to post things?

  12. 1:00:18 – 1:13:57

    Saudi control system: Twitter ‘flies,’ arrests, and Pegasus surveillance of dissidents

    1. BF

      Through, through social media. Uh, you know, because Twitter in Saudi Arabia, eight out of 10 people are on Twitter.

    2. JR

      Really?

    3. BF

      Right. So, in, in, uh, what- what, what we think of as Twitter now is essentially the platform for, uh, for Trump (laughs) to basically, uh-

    4. JR

      Not anymore. I think they locked him out of his account.

    5. BF

      Yeah. I think, I think they opened him back up today.

    6. JR

      Oh. Good idea. (laughs)

    7. BF

      Uh... Uh... Sha- shame on Jack Dorsey. Um, but, um, you know, they, uh, he's- he's- he's back (laughs) at it, I think, today. So, uh, be interesting to see what, what comes. I mean, God. It was so, so nutty. But, um, but so- so the Arab Spring in 2013, right? Happened because of, because of Twitter. Which what- what we don't think about, um, in this country is... We think, "Oh, hey, we have freedom of speech. We have freedom of opinion. We can write what we want." And if I write, you know, "Joe Biden's the worst man, uh, on planet Earth," nobody's coming to arrest me.... or if I write, "Donald Trump, uh, should go to jail," nobody's coming to arrest me, right? Well, in Saudi Arabia, anything having to do with the government or taking, uh, uh, uh, an opinion against the government is essentially a crime. So the entire country is on Twitter because on Twitter, you can create 20 accounts, you can create 30 accounts. And if you have a VPN or whatever like that, you can be whoever you want to be. You can be, you know, Joseph Mohammed Sultan Abdulaziz XV, and you can just create that as your, as your Twitter handle, and you can have 20 accounts. And so, so Twitter is the last bastion for essentially free speech, um, and for, you know, basically opinion. And this is why the Arab Spring happened, because millions and millions of youths and activists around the Middle East in 2013 took to Twitter and were able to activate, they were able to organize, they were able to plan their demonstrations and ultimately, uh, their revolution. Well, Saudi Arabia realized this, that this was a huge danger to basically the monarchies in the Middle East. This is a huge danger to the Emirates, this is a huge danger to Saudi Arabia. A huge danger to, you know, whatever you want to call it, Oman, Bahrain, you know, where you have these monarchies in place. And so Saudi Arabia started to develop a policy under Mohammed bin Salman to basically take control of the public sphere, basically take control of the messaging on Twitter. So they hire thousands of trolls, basically people to work for the government, sit in a room, and we have photos of these rooms. Actually, the- their main room that they do this was the room that when Trump visited Saudi Arabia and you see that photo of him with his hands on the orb, that really weird photo next to the king and they're looking up, that's actually, like, the main room where they're manipulating Twitter. Crazy. And so they hire thousands of- of these employees basically to go onto Twitter, create thousands of false accounts, and basically push forward Mohammed bin Salman's narrative. MBS is the greatest thing to ever happen to the country. We love MBS's policy. Vision 2030. You know, MBS is changing the country. We can't... And, and so while they're doing this, they're also monitoring the accounts of anybody who is speaking poorly of MBS and arresting these people and tracking them down and throwing them in jails. So Khashoggi essentially was criticizing Mohammed bin Salman, um, at the same time liking him. And he gets this order from this-

    8. JR

      At the same time liking him?

    9. BF

      Liking him saying, "Hey, I like the royal family. A lot of things that I- that this guy's doing is good. However, the opinion of one man and the leadership of one man and only one man is never good for our country." And what he had seen in the previous, you know, kings or princes, right, was that yes, they were the monarch, but they would listen to other opinions. There was more of a form of, you know, uh, a parliament. And what he saw with Mohammed bin Salman was not only, you know, the crackdown at the Ritz-Carlton where MBS rit- you know, literally in a mob operation rounds up all of his cousins and half-brothers and family members and all of the wealthy people in Saudi Arabia, and basically holds them in prison at the Ritz-Carlton. Stories have emerged of these- many of these people being tortured and basically shook them down for tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars, and basically went, "I'm- I'm the crown prince. You're gonna give me half, you're gonna give me your money, or you're not leaving the Ritz-Carlton." And that was one of his major ways to consolidate his power and so that nobody, uh, would go against him. So Khashoggi is seeing this and he's ordered by the henchman, uh, Mohammed bin Salman's cyber henchman, Saud al-Qahtani, to s- to remain quiet, to shut up. Stop tweeting, stop writing, stop posting, shut up. And it gets so serious, he realizes that he's gonna be rounded up and thrown in a jail and he flees the country. He goes into self-exile. He takes a job at The Washington Post writing as a global opinions columnist for The Washington Post. Um, this is now basically, uh, the, uh, end of, uh, I'm gonna mess up the dates, but this is sometime in the- the fall of- of 2017. And starts publishing columns in The Washington Post where he is critical of the Trump-Saudi relationship. Um, and he's writing critically of- of Mohammed bin Salman of what's going on in the country because so many of his friends are being arrested, so many of the people that he knows are all of a sudden being silenced. And, um, and at the same time, he starts working with this Saudi dissident to Montreal, Omar Abdulaziz. He's 27 years old.He went to school, uh, when he was 19 in Canada because Saudi Arabia, um, their, their way into the future is to educate essentially their people so that they're not gonna be 100% reliant on oil. And because they have trillions and trillions of dollars, they can pay for the educations of, you know, any of their good students to go outside of the country to be educated under the promise that, "If we pay for your education, you're going to come back to Saudi Arabia, right? And take your education and help our country, you know, grow." So Omar Abdulaziz is one of these guys. He goes to Montreal at 19. Uh, he's studying, uh, at McGill and he literally goes on a foreign exchange program and the first family that he goes to live with is a Jewish family in Montreal. And Omar goes, you know, obviously from what he had been thought to believe, you know, um, growing up in Saudi Arabia and, you know, Israel and Jews and stuff, and all of a sudden Omar's in Montreal and he goes, "Wait, this, uh, these people are nice. I like these people." And he also is being ingrained into Western philosophy, into a democracy, into a, you know, into a free way of being, and he starts taking to Twitter basically, "Why, why isn't Saudi Arabia like this? Why isn't my country like this? Why, you know, why don't we have freedom of speech? Why don't we have freedom of opinion? Why does our country have to be like this?" And he starts growing his Twitter following. He goes back to Saudi Arabia because his mother has cancer, and while he's there, he's continuing to tweet. And his father, who's working for Saudi Arabian, like, intelligence, gets a call and goes, "You need to bring Omar in, uh, to meet with us." And his father, knowing what this is, knows that, you know, they're basically gonna arrest his son or silence his son or, you know, basically make it that his son can never leave the country. And, uh, Omar decides to head back to Canada. Uh, this was now six years ago, seven years ago. Um, and he returns back to Canada. He's grown his Twitter following to, I think he has 600, 700,000 followers and starts tweeting, you know, against essentially Saudi Arabia, the, the kingdom, uh, free- freedom of speech. And Jamal Khashoggi, as he now is living in self-exile, reaches out to Omar Abdulaziz, um, because Omar is now this voice of the youth and Jamal wants to basically, you know, see how he can change his country. And what Omar tells him is that... because what had been happening is every single time that Jamal would send out a tweet, and Jamal has 1.75 million Twitter followers, hundreds and hundreds of responses come onto his Twitter feed. You know, "Go to hell." "You should burn in hell." "You should die." "You're a traitor." And Jamal is thinking that his whole country has turned on him. What he doesn't realize is that this isn't real. These are the Saudi flies, the trolls that the government has hired to basically qu- quash his Twitter account and basically have their own hashtags trending. So Omar understands this and he tells Jamal, he goes, "No, no, no, no, no. This isn't real, Jamal. This isn't real. This is what the government's doing. We know this. Let me show you." So Omar and Jamal start working together and Jamal agrees to fund Omar Abdulaziz money, to basically start buying thousands and thousands of SIM cards, Canadian and US SIM cards, that they can put... that they can send to Saudi Arabia, right? So that you can't track where, where the phone is coming from because it'll look like a US or Canadian SIM card. And also distribute among dissidents or, you know, uh, all over that are not living in Saudi Arabia to start fighting the government trolls on Twitter, that they can send out basically their tweets and go, "This is what's really happening," and basically fight fire with fire. Well, they hack Omar's phone, the Saudis, with Pegasus, which is Israeli cybersecurity software, which Israel is basically selling through this company NSO to any government that essentially wants it because it gives Is- Israel spying technology because now they know w- who Saudi Arabia's interested in. And they hack Omar's phone with Pegasus. They hack Jamal's phone with Pegasus. Now the Saudis know what Jamal and Omar are working on, on top of anything else that Jamal is doing. And arguably, this leads to Jamal's murder, and they actually come to Canada a few months before trying to, uh, before murdering Jamal and try to rendition Omar back to Saudi Arabia. And this is all, you know, in the movie The Dissident, and, uh, just a, uh, a crazy, um, um, devastating story.

    10. JR

      Now, did they ever contact Jamal and tell him to stop?

    11. BF

      Well, they did. Saud al-Qahtani had reached out to Jamal, and they reached out to him again when he was in the United States, uh, basically threatening him and, and, you know, saying, "You need to stop." Um, but Jamal...You know, I think having worked for the kingdom for so many years, I think he viewed there would maybe be a threat of rendition. There would be a threat of, uh, you know, y- we're gonna, um, I don't know, try to bring you back. But I don't think he ever could imagine that they were gonna murder him in his own country's consulate.

    12. JR

      Why do you think they did that with him? Like, why, why did they treat it, like, as such a hostile act that they were l- l- willing to be so brazen?

  13. 1:13:57 – 1:29:22

    Why authoritarian leaders act brazenly: impunity, Trump-era protection, and Qatar backchannels

    1. BF

      Well, uh, I, I think you have to look, um, beyond just this specific murder, and you have to look at what has been happening in, in, in our global landscape, which is essentially that w- what we have learned essentially from Russia and Putin, here's the poisoning in 2006 of Alexander Litvinenko with polonium, basically nuclear poisoning. And while Britain determines 100% that it's Russia, they know it's Putin, they don't do anything about it. It's a smack on the wrist, right? Because you go, okay, well, what is really Britain or the u- uh, UK or the US really gonna do about this? Are we gonna go to war with Russia? No. Are we gonna cut off all business relationships? No. Are you gonna impose spectacular sanctions and this, that, and the other? Probably not. And so basically, Putin gets away with this crime. He gets away with all the other crimes, you know, uh, the poisoning of Kim Jong Il's brother, you know, at the Malaysian airport a few years ago, right? Gets away with it. And so if you look at this authoritarian playbook over the last, whatever you call it, you know, 15, 20 years, where, where everything is kind of reported, and everybody's filming with their phone, and everybody's on, on, you know, the internet, is that MBS believed that he could get away with this, right? Meaning, what are you going to do against Saudi Arabia? We have trillions of dollars. We invest trillions of dollars, and really, what are you going to do against us? Now, at the same time, you know, the Trump administration and Kushner are very close with the royal family. Um, whether you, whether you like or dislike Trump, um, this is just a flat-out fact. I mean, Trump basically in the fallout of, uh, of Khashoggi's murder, not only protected, uh, Mohammed bin Salman, uh, he vetoed, uh, both the House of Representatives and the Senate passing legislation that was going to block arm sales to Saudi Arabia because they buy hundreds of billions of dollars of weapons from us. Saudi Arabia is the single biggest purchaser of weapons from the United States, okay? So they block hundreds of billions of dollars worth of weapons from us, and Trump vetoes it. At the same time, they're trying to pass legislation to sanction Saudi Arabian, th- i- against the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. Trump vetoes it. And on top of that, in Bob Woodard's book that came out a few months ago, there's audiotapes of Trump going, "I saved Mohammed bin Salman's ass." And if you've followed the news over the last few weeks, uh, the Trump administration has put forward to the Justice Department a request for immunity against prosecution for Mohammed bin Salman, uh, and, uh, and, and the Saudis, you know, whatever else, uh, when he leaves office, uh, that Biden would not be able to go try and be able to prosecute Mohammed bin Salman for the murder of Khashoggi, uh, or, or other crimes. And this is pending right now, uh, with, with the Justice Department. So these, these are facts. And, you know, i- in the film, the admonishing of, of Trump comes from Bob Corker, Rand Paul, Lindsey Graham. So you have essentially our country and, you know, uh, bipartisan support across Congress to basically reassess this US-Saudi relationship, which our government is viewing toxic, and you've had the Trump administration basically going, "No, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna protect this guy." And the reason why I tell this story is I believe that they believed Mohammed bin Salman, that they could kill Khashoggi and get away with it, and the biggest thing that they would have been worried about is that the United States would have taken action, and they knew that they had safety, uh, with the Trump administration.

    2. JR

      Did Trump make any statements, any public statements about w- the w- what he thought happened or what he was gonna do about it?

    3. BF

      Well, yeah, many. I mean, you know, uh, after he, uh, obtained the CIA, uh, findings of this murder, and the CIA basically said, um, I don't remember what it was with, with, um, certainty, uh, you know, with, with a high level of certainty, which apparently if the CIA says that, that's like basically going, "It happened." They will never say it's 100%.

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. BF

      It was a high level of certainty that Mohammed bin Salman ordered this murder. And Trump dismissed intelligence findings, as, as he has again, and here you have, um, you know, Rand Paul and Lindsey Graham and Bob Corker and Mitch o- uh, Mitch McConnell. I mean, all of his adves- uh, uh, his, uh, um, uh, uh, what, what's the word? Um, supporters, you know, uh, basically going, um, "How can the president dismiss the CIA's findings, um, in this crime?" I mean, there was the audio. There were the, the transcripts. There was the surveillance footage. And then apparently...There are tons of intercepted phone calls that US intelligence has that Khashoggi's fiancee, uh, Hatice Cengiz, has just submitted, uh, to the incoming Biden administration to release these files on Khashoggi's murder, that apparently were intercepted communications that show without a shadow of a doubt that Mohammed bin Salman ordered this murder. There's also, um, uh, uh, a shocking part that when Turkey, after a year of working on this film, they give me the 37-page transcript to Khashoggi's murder, and I mean, it's- it's- it's stunning. I mean, the- the guys who- who- who murder him are literally making jokes and laughing, uh, uh, ahead of killing him, talking about basically, uh, cutting him up like a horse, talking about how, uh, it'll be easy to, uh, cut up his body because, uh, you know, you're just gonna basically hang him and quarter him. Um, and they're laughing about it. And, uh, in this 37-page transcript that I receive, um, it cuts out right after Khashoggi has been murdered and they, uh, take off- take off his clothes, basically strip him. And they strip him because they're going to put his clothes on a body double, uh, who puts on a fake beard and walks out the back of the consulate, and the Turks found this, you know, this in surveillance f- footage of this body double trying to pretend to be Khashoggi leaving the consulate. And the transcript then cuts out for about two hours and then picks back up, meaning the actual dismembering of Khashoggi, um, I don't have in this- in the transcript. And I asked my sources, um, why, why the transcript cut out. And, uh, you know, what I've heard, and I certainly, you know, uh, wouldn't have any way to verify this, is that the room that they killed him in, um, was the only room in the consulate where they could securely communicate with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Um, in the film, you'll see these footage and photos which to this day have still not been released to the world. The Turks gave me these- this- this footage and photos for- for the film, which is staggering. And you'll see this media room where there's the camera set up basically to- to do, uh, a secure call. And this was the only room in the consulate that was bugged, but it was the only room in the consulate that had a secure video communication system with Riyadh. And what I was told is that after they murdered Khashoggi, they made a call back to Riyadh to arguably show MBS or Saud al-Qahtani that Khashoggi was in fact dead and dismembered, um, and, uh, I guess Turkey has decided to, you know, save this piece or whatever, uh, of- of information.

    6. JR

      Save it?

    7. BF

      Well, um, for whatever reason, they haven't wanted to, uh, come forward with this part, uh, uh, of- of the transcript. And there's, uh, another thing that as they're removing these bags that contain Khashoggi's body, that they're then going to go bring over to the consul general's home and, uh, the Turks believe they burned his body in the tandoori oven, they ordered 70 pounds of meat from a very well-known restaurant right after he was murdered and so the Turks believe that they burned his body in this tandoor oven, which they had checked that could burn at over 1,000 degrees, a couple days before the murder, uh, so that there'd be no DNA evidence and that you'd burn it with the meat and so it would smell like there was, you know, meat burning rather than a- rather than a body. Um, that there's a bag that apparently contained his hands, um, and, uh, uh, and Mutreb basically says, "No, no, no, you leave that bag for me. Fingerprints." So it's believed that they brought back his hands, uh, and his head to Saudi Arabia.

    8. JR

      (imitates explosion) . (inhales deeply) Oof.

    9. BF

      Yeah. Uh, un- unbelievable. Yeah, there it is. "US considers granting immunity to Saudi prince in suspected assassination attemp-" So this was an assassination attempt of another Saudi national who's living in the United States, and they had basically sent this whole kill team in through Canada to come kill this guy, uh, who was a dissenter in, uh, um, living in the US, um, but, uh, that case is pending right now and so they're, uh, so, uh, the Trump administration is looking to grant Mohammed bin Salman immunity, uh, from any sort of prosecution.

    10. JR

      (imitates explosion) What kind of weird back room deals are they making?

    11. BF

      Well, here's one. Uh, if you pull up, uh, there's a story on the New York Times-

    12. JR

      Here it is.

    13. BF

      Okay.

    14. JR

      $500 million arms sale to Riyadh. Critics slam reported munitions deal in final weeks of Donald Trump's presidency as "outrageous" and "a moral outrage." Wow.

    15. BF

      Well, here's a better one. Look up the New York Times reported that-

    16. JR

      He's gonna move there.

    17. BF

      ... today.

    18. JR

      That's what's gonna happen-

    19. BF

      Yeah, he's gonna move there. He's gonna have a huge palace.

    20. JR

      He's gonna take off-

    21. BF

      He's gonna set up in Riyadh.

    22. JR

      They're gonna say that we're gonna prosecute him in America and he's gonna be like, "No you're not."

    23. BF

      Yeah. Yeah, if Mohammed saw this, he's like, "No, no, no. Come over here, come over here." (laughs)

    24. JR

      Imagine if he did move there?

    25. BF

      You imagine?

    26. JR

      What a beautiful, the most beautiful palace. Trump- Trump Saudi Arabia right here, Trump Palace.

    27. BF

      (laughs)

    28. JR

      Sets up a golf course.

    29. BF

      I mean, God, you could see it but-

    30. JR

      I could see it.

  14. 1:29:22 – 1:43:01

    Making truth-to-power films: Fogel’s personal journey, emotional toll, and the future

    1. BF

      Um, well, coming out of, uh, the experience of Icarus, um, and, um ... And I, and I tell this story because it, it, it leads to your question. Um, as I, as I began making Icarus, I was going through a really, really hard time in my life. I'd, I had, uh, 10 years previous I had a, a play, uh, and a book and a movie, uh, that had d- done well. And I had, you know, uh, had paid my bills off this thing called Jewtopia (laughs) which was a, uh, a play that ran for three and a half years off-Broadway. It was about a, a Gentile who wanted to marry a Jewish girl so he'd never have to make another decision. So-

    2. JR

      (laughs)

    3. BF

      ... (laughs) you know, so, so my background was in comedy. I was, uh, I was acting, I was starring in this show that I wrote, that I was producing. I performed in this show 2,000 times. I mean, it was s- ... I, I was going crazy. I'd basically become, you know, uh, I was the Jewtopia guy. Um, and, and I was like pigeonholed into this because it was like a be careful what you wish for, uh, because, um, all of a sudden I have this hit show, I've got a book, and, and, like, and people just saw me as like it was like, you know, Jason Alexander, you know? It's like Costanza or Ross on Friends. They were never gonna see me as, as something else. And during this time, I decide that I want to, um, direct. I didn't wanna act anymore. I didn't wanna, uh, do comedy anymore really. I wanted to direct and produce because, um, I didn't wanna go seek that self, that validation that you need as, as an actor where you're auditioning and you're always seeking the validation from others. And this play, you know, having starring in it and producing it and co-wrote it and, you know, I said, "Wait, I don't, I don't wanna go back to-... needing validation, um, from others. I just wanna be the guy who can, who can make those decisions and pull those strings and, and create things and, and put myself in them or, or not. And so I really got, started to focus just that I wanted to direct and produce. So I get to make, uh... Over the next four years, I, I, I cobbled together a million and a half dollars to go direct the film adaptation of Utopia. And long story short, the money I took into it was, uh, uh, just not friendly money. It was a real estate guy and he didn't understand the movie business. A 26-day shoot turned into a 19-day shoot. They didn't wanna sell the film. Uh, instead they just wanted to release it for rental with no marketing or advertising behind it. It got bad reviews. Um, it was a flop and I had put my savings into this movie as well. And so here I am in, uh, 2012 and I'm broke and I, I, I literally don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. I'm, uh, what I would call in director's jail. Um, I no longer had my, my, my agency. At the time I was at CAA, uh, so I'd lost my agency. Um, nobody was sending me out for projects. Um, the movie was looked at as, as a failure and I'm basically in a midlife crisis. Uh, I'm literally renting out my apartment, uh, as an Airbnb to pay my bills. And, um, I'm literally debating moving back to Denver, uh, in with my family, uh, until I can figure things out. And, um, uh, and here I was, you know, a couple years earlier starring in a, you know, uh, in a show. Um, and so this depression leads me to start writing. I start on Icarus and three years later I'm standing on stage at the Academy Awards winning an Oscar. A complete 180 of my life. I mean, a, a totally surreal moment, but with that came this huge kind of burden. This, like, feeling that, okay, well, I just basically helped save a man's life. I helped expose the biggest doping scandal in sport history. Um, I was working with US intelligence agencies bringing a guy into protection. Um, and all of those really, really serious stakes around Icarus, and then I'm given this incredible accolade and I go, "Well, I, I can't go make my next movie a Disney movie." I can't go do something that's, you know, not gonna have stakes, and so I'm trying to figure out what that next project is gonna be.

    4. JR

      Did you feel like that was forced upon you or d- was that your instincts? Like, it was just how you felt about the f- your future that... Was it because Icarus was so rewarding? Because it was so impactful? Like, why did you decide that that had to be the case for the future?

    5. BF

      (sighs) It felt that it would be disingenuous. It felt that it wouldn't be, um, operating with integrity to go through a, a journey, um, that spoke truth to power, uh, that, um, brought forward a story that I, I felt that the world needed and wanted to see, which clearly they, they did. And that Grigory Rodchenkov is still living under the fear of his life every single day in protection, in isolation for basically bringing to me his truth and trusting me with his life and his truth. So to then go jump in and go do whatever you want to call it, um, didn't feel... Um, it, it felt like I'd been bestowed this gift, this privilege, and that I wanted to see to it that the next project that I did, um, that I would stay that course. And in Jamal's Murder, um, it ticked all these boxes for me. It was a story of human rights, it was a story of freedom of speech, it was a story of freedom of journalism. Um, you know, cyber, uh, cyber hacking, but then there was this personal story, and this is where I get to your question. Um, right after Jamal is murdered, I, I, uh, in my mind I go, "Hey, this, this seems like this could be the next story. This could be the next film I make." But there were three variables to me as to whether or not I could take this story on, at least that I saw it, 'cause I didn't want to tell an archival film. I didn't want to go piece together a bunch of news footage and, you know, here's, here's my documentary. I wanted to do like what I did in Icarus where I'm embedding, where I really, really go deep into it. Where I craft a story and a film that the world doesn't know. And if they think they know about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi and they watch The Dissident, they realize they don't. And, and, and for me to do that, it depended on three things. One, Hatice Cengiz, Jamal Khashoggi's fiancee. Whether or not she would participate with me and whether or not she would work with me exclusively.... to tell her story and that story of their love together. Because that, to me, was going to be the emotional connection of the film. That was the human connection, a woman who was in love with this man, who believed that she was going to marry this man, who walks into a consulate to go get marriage papers to, to marry this woman to never return. I mean, just, uh, un- unfathomable. And so would Hatice work with me? The second was Omar Abdulaziz. Here's his story emerging in the New York Times in the days following Khashoggi's murder, of this young Saudi dissident who's claiming, who's saying that his brothers are sitting in a Saudi prison with no charges, 23 of his friends are sitting in a Saudi jail with no charges. That he had been hacked with Pegasus, that the Saudis had come to rendition and kill him in Canada months before. And I saw in Omar, the protagonist, the young Khashoggi, the voice of, you know, who's still alive, fighting for his life under security of Canada. Would Omar work with me and allow me his evidence and his audio and tell his story? Because through Omar, again, we come to understand what's really going on in Saudi Arabia, but also come to love Jamal. And the third element was the Turks, the Turkish. Would they provide me information, evidence, transcripts, interviews that was not on CNN, was not on BBC, that they had not given to anybody else other than intelligence agencies? So as I set out on this journey, um, I get connected to Hatice, and I go to Istanbul, uh, a month after Jamal's murder. And, uh, I didn't bring a cameraman. I, um, I'm sorry, I didn't bring a camera. I traveled there with Jake Swanko, my cinematographer, who also, uh, produced the film with me. And, uh, Hatice was just willing to meet with me. She didn't even speak English at the time, and we had a translator. And I spent five weeks there, meeting with her every other day, um, as she was going through the worst, unimaginable grief, telling her, "Hatice, look, let me help you. Let me tell this story. Trust me. I promise you I'll protect you. I promise you, I promise you that I will protect Jamal." And, um, I left Istanbul after five weeks, and she was still deciding. And, uh, I then went to Montreal, and with Omar, it was the same thing, but Omar allowed me to start filming. But every time after we filmed with Omar, we would leave him all of the camera cards, because Omar wasn't ready to participate either. He was just... he was in total shock. He had... you know, uh, I mean, uh, and, um, and this was this trust-building with these people. And then Hatice basically says, "Hey, I'm ready," and I go and meet her in Brussels as she goes to speak in front of the European Parliament. First time basically leaving her country other than going to Oman. She had never been in Western Europe. And that scene where Hatice is introduced in the film was the very first time that I was able to film with her and she trusted me. And this began this, what's now been this two-year, incredibly personal, emotional journey, because you're with these people as they're going through this horrific loss, as they're fighting for justice. I mean, I, I was with Omar in Canada as he's learning that his brothers, uh, had... one of his brothers had been tortured and had his teeth knocked out, 19-year-old brother, uh, for doing nothing other than knowing Omar. I'm shooting with Omar in Canada as he's receiving death threats on his phone in Arabic coming from Canadian phone numbers. Um, I'm with Hatice as we walk into what was going to be her and Jamal's home in Istanbul, and we opened the door, and it's a crime scene. And there's black dust everywhere because they had taken the whole place for fingerprints. And she's in this place that she thought she was going to spend her life with Jamal, going, "Where, where's Jamal's stuff? What, what happened here?" And this has taken such a, a huge emotional toll, um, on me, because you really come to love these people. Um, on, on the other hand, like, I'm so grateful. Like, had, had Icarus not happened, I wouldn't be able to go tell these stories. These people wouldn't have trusted me.

Episode duration: 2:13:02

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