Joe Rogan Experience #1600 - Lex Fridman

Narrator 0:02 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Rex, I had a surprise for you, but it didn't work out.

Lex Fridman 0:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:17 I had a suit and a tie-

Lex Fridman 0:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:19 ... and I was gonna come in dressed like you.

Lex Fridman 0:21 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 0:21 Full ... Yes, full on. W- white shirt, suit, tie.

Lex Fridman 0:24 Fitted?

Joe Rogan 0:25 Yes, fitted, but the problem is my fucking shirt was at the cleaners, so then I tried to use, um ... I have, uh, some other white shirts that are, like, these really stretchy shirts that you can wear 'em if they're open, but if I'm trying to put a tie on, they literally don't fit around my neck. So I'm doing this and I'm killing myself. And then I'm like, "Well, maybe I'll leave it open."

Lex Fridman 0:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:45 And they're, they're just ... There's certain-

Lex Fridman 0:46 Dressing up like first day of school.

Joe Rogan 0:48 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 0:48 Damn. I, I appreciate it. It's like-

Joe Rogan 0:50 I was-

Lex Fridman 0:50 I'm honored.

Joe Rogan 0:50 I was gonna m- mimic you.

Lex Fridman 0:52 Yeah. Yeah, uh, do you know ... Remember Michael Malice?

Joe Rogan 0:55 Yes.

Lex Fridman 0:55 He actually ... I did a podcast with him and he (laughs) he wore, uh, the opposite-

Joe Rogan 1:00 Oh.

Lex Fridman 1:00 ... which is a white-

Joe Rogan 1:02 Tie.

Lex Fridman 1:02 ... suit and a white tie and a black sh- ... I mean, he is a sort of the epitome of the loving kind of troll.

Joe Rogan 1:10 Yes.

Lex Fridman 1:10 That's like the ultimate troll. He, he wore the exact opposite. He got the exact same haircut as me-

Joe Rogan 1:15 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:15 ... which I don't even know what that means exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:17 Just got your hair short.

Lex Fridman 1:17 Just (imitates hair cutting with razor) cuts your hair short.

Joe Rogan 1:18 Yeah, that's all it means.

Lex Fridman 1:19 But it, it was, uh ... It was a magical moment. That's, that's what trolling at its best does.

Joe Rogan 1:25 Mm.

Lex Fridman 1:25 It's like you feel loved.

Joe Rogan 1:27 Oh, that's funny. He's an interesting guy. Michael Malice is a-

Lex Fridman 1:30 That's it.

Joe Rogan 1:30 ... very interesting guy 'cause, uh, he's got some wacky beliefs that I don't beli- ... I, I don't subscribe to at all.

Lex Fridman 1:36 Anarchy.

Joe Rogan 1:36 Yeah, complete anarchy. No police. I don't think we should have police.

Lex Fridman 1:39 No.

Joe Rogan 1:39 Like, like, what world do you live in, any you weigh three pounds-

Lex Fridman 1:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:42 ... and y- you don't even have a gun. You don't (laughs) have a police.

Lex Fridman 1:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:45 Like, what are you talking about?

Lex Fridman 1:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:46 But he's a brilliant guy.

Lex Fridman 1:48 Brilliant.

Joe Rogan 1:48 I- i- it's, uh, it's interesting. Like I- I don't subscribe to a lot of his ideas, but I think, um ... (smacks lips) He, uh, he- he's also ... Always has a half smile when he's saying things.

Lex Fridman 1:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:58 So you kind of never know.

Lex Fridman 2:00 I don't, I don't think he means half the things he says.

Joe Rogan 2:03 Really?

Lex Fridman 2:04 So I don't know. He's-

Joe Rogan 2:06 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 2:06 He's, uh, underneath it all, which is why I talk to him, which is why I consider him a friend. There's a really kind person in there.

Joe Rogan 2:13 Yes.

Lex Fridman 2:14 And ... But he says things like, yeah, like, "Police is the enemy." And it's like, wait a minute. Uh, uh, d- and you live in New York. So he plays with ideas. It feels like he's just somebody who's juggling with different ideas and having fun with it.

Joe Rogan 2:27 Mm.

Lex Fridman 2:27 Not taking anything seriously. And that's really refreshing because, uh, in the b- in the best light, that's a fearless way to see the world. And also, uh, he's working on this concept of, I think he calls it, the white pill. You know, like red pill and blue pill.

Joe Rogan 2:43 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 2:43 The white pill is basically ... You know, I think he's highlighting that, that for red-pilled folks, that there's sometimes a cynicism about the future of the world. And the white pill is seeing the truth of the world but being optimistic about it and thinking, like, we can actually make things better. So not becoming cynical.

Joe Rogan 3:04 Mm.

Lex Fridman 3:04 Not saying, like, you know, uh, "Globalists, the government is ultimately ... Like, power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's always going to be a bureaucracy. It's always going to be greedy people who take power and, and take control." So that's like the cynical, the negative view. But the, uh, the positive, the white-pill view is that, you know, uh, we can actually build a better world. I mean, he has ideas about how to build that better world that I don't agree with. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:33 What is his ideas?

Lex Fridman 3:35 I- I'm not sure I've, uh, quite understood them, but ... Because ultimately he's like a counter-puncher, which is, you know, government ... All government is bad. So that's ... The idea of anarchism is that y- you're supposed to, in this emergent way, m- y- you know, form groups and agree together how those groups should operate. I'm, I'm not articulating this-

Joe Rogan 3:59 Isn't that like a local government?

Lex Fridman 4:01 It's a local government. So his biggest problem is that we're born in this geographical space and are assigned to a particular government without having chosen it.

Joe Rogan 4:11 Mm.

Lex Fridman 4:11 So he wants to do exactly what we're doing now, but choose our government.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Well, isn't that what happens when you move to a different state?

Lex Fridman 4:18 I think so. Different state. That's the whole idea of-

Joe Rogan 4:20 It's one of the reasons why I'm here.

Lex Fridman 4:21 Yeah. (laughs) You're an anarchist, bro. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:23 Yeah, I guess. I am if you ... If you consider-

Lex Fridman 4:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:26 ... California the status quo, I'm an anarchist.

Lex Fridman 4:28 That's right. (laughs) This is the headline now.

Joe Rogan 4:30 The current-

Lex Fridman 4:31 (laughs) Joe Rogan says he's an anarchist.

Joe Rogan 4:32 ... current California-

Lex Fridman 4:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:34 ... is ... Uh, I mean, if that ... If rebelling against that form of government, draconian measures they've put in with the lockdowns-

Lex Fridman 4:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:40 ... and then allowing people to camp everywhere.

Lex Fridman 4:43 Yeah, but he also says, I think, that we ha- ... We're in the state of anarchy between different nations, because you can choose to immigrate to a different nation.

Joe Rogan 4:51 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 4:51 And then they, they operate ... There's no ... I think there's, uh, you know, the UN and so on, there's agreements between nations, but they operate as independent entities. I don't know. And his idea is, like, remove as much as possible ... It's like libertarian plus plus. Like, remove as much control from the government as possible, so, uh-

Joe Rogan 5:11 That's great until someone here robs you.

Lex Fridman 5:13 Yeah. I think so too. I-

Joe Rogan 5:14 You know?

Lex Fridman 5:15 So this is the, the c- the capitalist view, I think. Well, I don't know. I don't ... I don't wanna misuse terms, but the ... Step back from the anarchist view is, uh, you know, we should get government out of most things, but the violence thing, we should let government protect us from.

Joe Rogan 5:31 Mm.

Lex Fridman 5:32 So m- the military, the police, you know, and, and things like firefighters and all those kinds of things, I mean, those ... That forms the fabric of society that can be stable and operate well, and we could do all the amazing things in terms of, uh, building new businesses, doing science, doing, uh, you know, all the kinds of entrepreneurship, just everything that makes this capitalist United States of America possible, like all the freedoms we enjoy. It, it, uh, at least to me, feels like the violence thing has to be removed off the table.

Joe Rogan 6:07 Yeah.Yeah. That's the biggest problem, 'cause with... when you have violence, you don't get anything done. Like, societies didn't really form in, in the sense that we, like we have now, I would imagine, until they developed agriculture and cities, right? Where they figured out a way to put walls up and fortify them and keep the barbarians out and go, "Okay. (sighs) I'm thinking about a thing. It's called a wheel." (laughs) And then they start-

Lex Fridman 6:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:32 ... putting ideas together.

Lex Fridman 6:34 You just relax, write stuff, uh, write ideas down on paper. Yeah, and we're talking about physical violence.

Joe Rogan 6:39 Yes.

Lex Fridman 6:40 Like, literally barbarians at the, to the-

Joe Rogan 6:41 Not like calling you the wrong pronoun.

Lex Fridman 6:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:45 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 6:45 Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah. So I mean, he... But I feel like, and Tim Dillon does this really well as well, is there's like a humor to it, where you're almost taking down the powerful by not taking them seriously.

Joe Rogan 7:03 He's one of the best alive at it. Tim Dillon's-

Lex Fridman 7:04 Tim Dillon.

Joe Rogan 7:04 ... one of the best I've ever seen.

Lex Fridman 7:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:06 One of the best I've ever seen at making fun of things while pretending to be serious.

Lex Fridman 7:11 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:12 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 7:12 His, uh, his YouTube is, is hilarious.

Joe Rogan 7:14 He's amazing.

Lex Fridman 7:14 He's doing these little skits.

Joe Rogan 7:15 I love that guy to death.

Lex Fridman 7:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:16 And he has a free pass because he's gay.

Lex Fridman 7:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:19 So like, he gets away-

Lex Fridman 7:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:21 ... with so much more. And he doesn't seem gay. Like, my wife doesn't even believe it. She's like, "I don't even believe he's gay."

Lex Fridman 7:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:26 She's-

Lex Fridman 7:27 That's an act.

Joe Rogan 7:27 She's laughing about it. She's joking, but he's just a, he's a one of a kind.

Lex Fridman 7:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:33 He really is a one of a kind.

Lex Fridman 7:34 Kamala has already arrested me. Not mad though. Just enjoying the moment.

Joe Rogan 7:38 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 7:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:39 His Twitter's a fucking... It's a work of art. I mean, it really is. His Twitter feed's amazing.

Lex Fridman 7:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:44 What did you say, that Burt made a video of the homeless?

Narrator 7:47 Um, yeah, it was on his Instagram. I'll see if I can pull it up, 'cause, uh-

Lex Fridman 7:49 Yeah.

Narrator 7:49 He was-

Lex Fridman 7:50 Burt Kreischer?

Joe Rogan 7:50 Yeah.

Narrator 7:50 He was driving up Highland Avenue in Hollywood and was just saying like... (clears throat) He wasn't showing the whole video during it, but he was like at a stoplight, and like there was tents the whole way up here, and he was explaining, he's like, "This is also a really nice tent." Crap.

Lex Fridman 8:03 People want me to talk to Burt Kreischer-

Joe Rogan 8:05 Here's Burt.

Lex Fridman 8:05 ... because of this Russia story.

Joe Rogan 8:06 Oh, hi, Burt. Look at Burt.

Lex Fridman 8:08 The machine.

Narrator 8:09 Checking it out.

Joe Rogan 8:10 Oh, this, it's in his Instagram story.

Narrator 8:11 Yeah, it's in his story.

Lex Fridman 8:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:11 That motherfucker, his stories will go on for years.

Narrator 8:14 Yeah, 'cause he does it for a long-

Joe Rogan 8:15 He does, does them every 15 seconds.

Narrator 8:16 It might even be deleted now.

Joe Rogan 8:17 It's crazy.

Narrator 8:18 Yeah, I think it's gone.

Lex Fridman 8:18 Productivity-wise, he's basically-

Narrator 8:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 8:20 ... the Elon Musk of Instagram stories.

Narrator 8:22 Maybe he took it off 'cause it's not showing up, or it could be one of these.

Joe Rogan 8:26 Is it? Well, there's so-

Narrator 8:27 Yeah, there it is actually.

Joe Rogan 8:28 There it is. There's tents all the way up on Highland.

8:31 Where people living on the side of the street. This is fucking insane. This is literally hundreds of tents everywhere. Uh, by the way, that's a nice fucking tent also. (laughs) Those are two-

8:42 (laughs) Yeah, it's fucking-

8:42 ... very nice tents. I wonder if the city's giving them out, because we don't have a tent that nice. I mean, I'm not even joking. Our tent isn't even that nice.

Lex Fridman 8:51 Wow.

Joe Rogan 8:51 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 8:52 That's, uh... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:52 That's a tiny, uh, image he showed. You know, you di- you didn't get to see the real homeless situation, but Bridget Phetasy sent me a video when she was driving by Venice, and it's a minute and a half long of just straight tents as she's driving down the road, just nothing but tents.

Lex Fridman 9:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:08 How do you put that genie back in the bottle, Lex?

Lex Fridman 9:10 Well, tha- this is... (laughs) Oh, you mean is the slippery slope. No. Listen, I've been thinking about, you know, a bunch of tech folks move, are moving to Austin, right?

Joe Rogan 9:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 9:20 In terms of, uh, uh, in terms of starting businesses. So, that's one of the questions they're asking, like, "Where is this headed?" And you're talking about the homeless problem, but-

Joe Rogan 9:28 Yeah. Well, the governor just today came out and said that if, uh, the city does not reimpose a ban on camping, that the state is gonna step in.

Lex Fridman 9:39 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:40 Because people are... uh, there, there's safety concerns. People are openly defecating on the streets. There's, uh, you know... It's not nearly as bad here as it is in California, but it's way worse here than I've ever seen it before.

Lex Fridman 9:52 But, you know, homelessness is... It feels like that's a symptom, not the problem, right? Uh, I mean, is that, uh... First-

Joe Rogan 10:00 It's hard to say, because homelessness was horrific in San Francisco before the pandemic.

Lex Fridman 10:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 10:06 And the concern is that when you are too lenient on the homeless folks and just allow them to camp whenever they w- wherever they want, shit wherever they want, they just do it. And if you don't put up rules, if you try to be progressive and open-minded... And it's like these are, they have new words for them, like the unhoused and shit like that. And when you do that, you open up the door for more of them to migrate there, because there's... Like, there was a video that somebody put up of them interviewing these homeless guys, and like, "Why do you like San Francisco?" And they said, "First of all, they give us food. They give us money. They let us, you know, they're, they're really loose. They let us camp wherever we want." And these guys had moved to San Francisco to be homeless.

Lex Fridman 10:48 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:49 Which is a problem.

Lex Fridman 10:50 But see, just like you said, that problem is tied up with the fact that a lot of people are struggling financially because of COVID.

Joe Rogan 10:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 10:57 So it's like-

Joe Rogan 10:57 Now, yeah.

Lex Fridman 10:58 ... uh, it feels like trying to solve the homelessness problem is in direct tension with trying to take care of people who are struggling.

Joe Rogan 11:08 Well, I think it shows that there's a problem with people losing a place to live and that the solution is not necessarily let them camp out anywhere they want.

Lex Fridman 11:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:18 I think there, there should be some sort of a step that the government takes, whether it's to de- develop housing or to build something for them. But when you let them just camp and shit everywhere, then you ruin all the other spaces.

Lex Fridman 11:30 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:30 Like, the best way to keep the city intact and to try to help these people is to implement some sort of a program where you provide housing for them. Letting them just camp on the street, that's chaos. Like, now you've, you've fucked up everything.

Lex Fridman 11:45 So, this particular state government just seems incompetent at solving this particular problem, but it also seems to be not very good at solving some other problems, right? In terms of encouraging businesses to stay there.

Joe Rogan 11:58 You mean California?

Lex Fridman 11:58 California, sorry.

Joe Rogan 11:59 Yeah, yeah.

Lex Fridman 12:00 Sorry, yeah. And-

Joe Rogan 12:01 Well, it's, it's, it's ba- it's overregulated. It's a crazy regulated state, you know, and it's also very high taxes. And there's, uh, a lot of people that are recognizing that there's other places that don't have any state taxes. Like, why would I stay in a place that's discri- it's, they're, they're telling you you can't work. They're closing down businesses. Gavin Newsom today is, there's a lawsuit got filed by more than 50 San Francisco Bay Area restaurants and bars.... trying to say, like, "Why, why are we closed? Like, this doesn't make any sense. You should, you, you can't just keep doing this forever." And some places are starting to wake up. My, my hope is that a lot of this was political, as gross as that sounds, and that now that Biden and Harris are in, that they'll open things back up. And the mayor of Chicago said this, the mayor of New York has said we have to open things back up. And I'm hoping-

Lex Fridman 12:51 Oh, interesting.

Joe Rogan 12:52 ... I'm hoping that they take this chance.

Lex Fridman 12:55 It could go the other way as well though. Right? It's, uh, the other way is now that there is a, a, a Democrat in office, that they could see that as a pass to, to pass further regulations and push this, close the economy, go into, uh, lockdown further.

Joe Rogan 13:13 Why would they do that though?

Lex Fridman 13:14 I ... L- listen, I've b- always thought it was a terrible idea. The, the long-term consequences on the economy are going to be potentially orders of magnitude worse on our, like, the fabric of our society. So, I don't know why they would do that. The, so the Michael Malice, so the devil on my shoulder.

Joe Rogan 13:33 Okay, Michael's the devil. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 13:34 (laughs) Wearing a white suit, uh, or the devil wears a suit and tie, right? Uh-

Joe Rogan 13:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 13:40 (laughs) That's a badass ... I've been listening to that over, and over again.

Joe Rogan 13:42 How good is that guy?

Lex Fridman 13:43 That guy is amazing.

Joe Rogan 13:43 Colter Wall.

Lex Fridman 13:44 And your story, uh, sorry, this is a small tangent. Your story that he doesn't, he hasn't been on your podcast because, uh-

Joe Rogan 13:50 He's working on a ranch.

Lex Fridman 13:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:52 Like as a fucking rancher.

Lex Fridman 13:53 This guy is legit.

Joe Rogan 13:54 Like, we reached out to them. It's like, "Well, he's working on the ranch right now."

Lex Fridman 13:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:57 Like, what is he doing on that ranch?

Lex Fridman 13:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:59 He's a fucking cowboy, like a legit cowboy.

Lex Fridman 14:02 Like, there's literally no more badass thing to do than turn down, uh, (laughs) Joe Rogan Experience, uh, appearance.

Joe Rogan 14:10 Massive promotion, he's like, "Nah, I'd rather just rope steers."

Lex Fridman 14:14 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:16 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 14:16 Yeah. But the Michael Malice devil, uh, argument is that, you know, that's one way for the government to gain more control over the populous is, uh, to, to fearmonger, say that there's a big problem-

Joe Rogan 14:29 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 14:29 ... and that to magnify the, the sort of, the narrative around how big that problem is. And unfortunately, from my perspective, uh, as a scientist, to use scientists to say, "Look, scientists are saying there's a huge problem," sort of use science as a tool of fearmongering and then gain further and further control of the populous. That's the devil on the, on the, on the shoulder.

Joe Rogan 14:52 You have to have an incentive to do that. Like, why would they want that kind of control while also devastating the economy? They need the economy because they need tax revenue.

Lex Fridman 15:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:01 If they're not getting tax revenue, how are they gonna feed the military industrial complex? How are they gonna feed all their businesses? How are they gonna feed the pharmaceutical industry? Like, what i- we ... All these people that finance their campaigns and all these banks that pay for them to speak after they get out of office, where's the money coming from now if there's no economy? I don't think that ... I think that's, like, one of them doom and gloom QAnon type deals-

Lex Fridman 15:24 Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:24 ... where people are thinking, like, this is ... They want to tr- kill half the population and, you know?

Lex Fridman 15:28 Yeah. No, I agree with you. Uh, everything you said incentive wise, it makes sense. I was really confused why we haven't done, for example, mass scale testing of everybody, which seemed like, you know, the antigen tests, which can be under a dollar to manufacture, manufacture hundreds of millions of them, at home testing of everybody and do-

Joe Rogan 15:48 Is it under a dollar?

Lex Fridman 15:50 To manufacture, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:51 Really?

Lex Fridman 15:51 Now, yeah. So you can start April or May, uh, of last year, start mass manufacture. There's no reason we can't do that and everybody starts getting tested. At the individual level, you know, the accuracy is not perfect, but at the societal level, that's one way. If you get a negative test, you're de- uh, sorry. If you get a positive test, you definitely have COVID. And so based on that, trusting the individuals, not tracking them, but trusting the individuals when they get a positive test, that they will stay home. And through that process, we woulda been able to open up the economy in the summer.

Joe Rogan 16:27 Mm.

Lex Fridman 16:27 Like, the, uh, um, Michael, uh, Mina, I think, from Harvard is, uh ... People should go follow him on Twitter or wherever. He's been screaming about this. Like, "Why the hell is FDA getting in, in the way of this?" Uh, so the FDA doesn't like crappy at home tests. They, they want, like, expensive nice tests. But the problem with expensive nice tests, it's hard to manufacture them at mass scale. (laughs) So, there's, you know, uh, people should go read his stuff. He's an actual, he's an expert of this.

Joe Rogan 16:58 Do the-

Lex Fridman 16:58 But-

Joe Rogan 16:58 ... crappy at home tests have a lot of false positives?

Lex Fridman 17:02 False ... No, they have f- false negatives. So meaning-

Joe Rogan 17:06 Oh.

Lex Fridman 17:06 ... if you get a positive, for sure you have it.

Joe Rogan 17:10 Is that true? Because we've had guys that got false positives with the rapid antigen tests.

Lex Fridman 17:16 The rapid antigen tests?

Joe Rogan 17:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 17:18 Uh, so I ... K. Everything coming out of my mouth now is kind of crappily, uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 17:25 You need-

Lex Fridman 17:25 So you, you might be correct.

Joe Rogan 17:26 ... you need whiskey.

Lex Fridman 17:27 I n-

Joe Rogan 17:27 This is what you need.

Lex Fridman 17:28 I, I, I ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:29 Some Whitmyre's Texas Single Barrel. Come on, son.

Lex Fridman 17:34 All right, Joe. You wanna, you wanna drink some whiskey just to clear the mind? (cork popping)

Joe Rogan 17:39 Like that sound? That's the sound of bad decision making about-

Lex Fridman 17:42 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:42 ... to come up. Um, ice or no ice?

Lex Fridman 17:45 Uh, no ice please. Neat.

Joe Rogan 17:46 Oh, like a man. I love it. Fucking Russians. Savage people.

Lex Fridman 17:50 Well, definitely not vodka though 'cause I, I can drink whiskey in moderation, but vodka-

Joe Rogan 17:54 Can't drink vodka in moderation?

Lex Fridman 17:56 Yeah. It's like-

Joe Rogan 17:56 You just start going hard?

Lex Fridman 17:57 What is it, uh ...

Joe Rogan 17:58 We got some of that.

Lex Fridman 17:59 (laughs) No, no, no, no, no.

Joe Rogan 18:00 Cheers, sir.

Lex Fridman 18:01 Cheers. (glasses clinking)

Joe Rogan 18:03 Good to see you man.

Lex Fridman 18:04 Good to see you.

Joe Rogan 18:04 How long you in town for?

Lex Fridman 18:06 Uh, anywhere from one week to five years.

Joe Rogan 18:10 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:11 You're so free.

Lex Fridman 18:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:13 I love how you live, man.

Lex Fridman 18:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:14 It's beautiful. And because of your podcast-

Lex Fridman 18:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:17 ... you, you can really do whatever you want whenever you wanna do it.It's kind of amazing.

Lex Fridman 18:21 It's the Texas way, but I s- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:23 It is. The Russian/Texas way.

Lex Fridman 18:25 (laughs) But I li- I like Boston too. I'm afraid of Silicon Valley now.

Joe Rogan 18:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:31 Okay? Everybody i- e- everybody inside Silicon Valley, all my friends that work there, all the great entrepreneurs, all the people that work at big companies, Google and so on, say, "Do not move here." I, you know, here's childlike, naive me, like, texting, "Oh, what are the cool places to live?" They're just like, all caps, "Do not move here."

Joe Rogan 18:49 Wyoming. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 18:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:51 Get out now. (laughs) Yeah.

Lex Fridman 18:53 I don't understand. They don't, actually don't provide good reasons. Like, the tax thing isn't the reason they provide. They-

Joe Rogan 18:58 Well, it's crime. Elon told me 12 of his friends have been robbed.

Lex Fridman 19:03 (sighs) So-

Joe Rogan 19:04 12 of his friends have been assaulted and robbed there.

Lex Fridman 19:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:07 He's like, "It's dangerous."

Lex Fridman 19:09 So culturally, the whole kinda defund the police culture-

Joe Rogan 19:12 Th- that-

Lex Fridman 19:12 ... is affecting the c- uh, the stability of the society in California.

Joe Rogan 19:15 There's that, but there's also just rampant homelessness and people with mental health problems and drug addicts, and they need to fuel their problem. You know, there was a show where they, uh, parked cars in San Francisco to see how long it took 'fore the car got broken into and then they put, you know, surveillance camera to watch it, and it was crazy. You park the car and then five minutes later, people are, like, looking around. They would sit in front of it, look around, look around, just pull out a hammer out of a bag, smash and grab. You just leave a bag in there so it looks like there might be something in the bag.

Lex Fridman 19:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:45 It, it, it was crazy. They watched, they watched over and over and over again people do this in a place where it's literally the highest real estate i- in the state and one of the most wealthy places on Earth. San Francisco's incredibly wealthy.

Lex Fridman 20:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:00 And you have r- homelessness everywhere, crime everywhere. There's an app that you can get where you can track the human defecation throughout the city.

Lex Fridman 20:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:10 Like, why would you live there?

Lex Fridman 20:11 Well, the question is, if you wanna build s- in the tech space, if you wanna build a company to do something cool, I don't care, if, what that, a little app or change the world, uh, to some large scale thing, where do you go? And this-

Joe Rogan 20:25 Right here, baby.

Lex Fridman 20:26 Okay, all right, all right, all right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:26 Austin, Texas. Come on, son.

Lex Fridman 20:28 But for the longest time it's been Silicon Valley, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:30 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 20:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:32 I'm trying to talk everybody cool into moving here.

Lex Fridman 20:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:35 Faheem Anwar's moving here.

Lex Fridman 20:38 (laughs) So-

Joe Rogan 20:38 One of the best comics in LA.

Lex Fridman 20:39 Awesome. So, uh, yeah, Elon has moved here.

Joe Rogan 20:43 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 20:43 So he's, he's been, uh, he's kinda the reason that's making me think, like, th- it's very possible that this becomes, in the good sense, where the, the crazy, the wild entrepreneurs move. So the, the tech, the cool Silicon Valley-

Joe Rogan 20:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:00 ... uh, moves. It's very possible.

Joe Rogan 21:01 Yeah. Like you. Like you.

Lex Fridman 21:03 Okay, okay. I- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:03 Like you, Lex. It's calling you.

Lex Fridman 21:04 Yeah, yeah. Well, but- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:05 Come on. I heard ya ate at Terry Black's.

Lex Fridman 21:07 But you have to... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Terry Black's is awesome.

Joe Rogan 21:10 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 21:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:10 Stopped you in your tracks, didn't it?

Lex Fridman 21:12 I quite jo- exactly, exactly like you said.

Joe Rogan 21:15 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 21:15 People... First of all, it was amazing. And then, of course, there's people who are like, "Oh, no. What, that... Yes, Terry Black's is amazing, but you should try this other place." So on and so forth.

Joe Rogan 21:25 There's all kinds of great barbecue here. They're right. Franklin's is aw- look at that. Whoo.

Lex Fridman 21:30 People are like, "That's too dry." Okay, I get it. I know, I know, I know.

Joe Rogan 21:33 No, no, no, no, it is not too dry. That's a photograph, you fucks. Not only that, it's with an Android phone.

Lex Fridman 21:38 (laughs) How do you know it's an Android?

Joe Rogan 21:40 'Cause you're an Android guy.

Lex Fridman 21:41 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:42 You, you have committed to that platform. It's very admirable. You don't give a fuck about that green text bubble.

Lex Fridman 21:48 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, try Signal.

Joe Rogan 21:50 Oh, Signal's amazing.

Lex Fridman 21:51 You and I had an extensive conversation-

Joe Rogan 21:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:53 ... on Signal.

Joe Rogan 21:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 21:53 Like, one message back and forth. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:55 Yeah. Well, we could c- keep going, but it seemed to be like we just text each other.

Lex Fridman 21:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:59 I don't mind green.

Lex Fridman 22:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:00 I, it's one of my favorite colors.

Lex Fridman 22:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:02 I don't, I don't mind the green bubble.

Lex Fridman 22:03 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:03 But I think it's a funny thing with people. You know? I just, I'm more, uh, invested in the Apple ecosystem-

Lex Fridman 22:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:10 ... and I use AirDrop a lot w- amongst friends.

Lex Fridman 22:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:14 And I know they have a so- uh, Samsung has an equivalent to AirDrop now that's, uh, supposed to be pretty functional.

Lex Fridman 22:21 Samsung Galaxy S21, the greatest phone coming out soon.

Joe Rogan 22:26 Ultra.

Lex Fridman 22:27 U- Uh, Ultra is the big one?

Joe Rogan 22:28 That's the good one.

Lex Fridman 22:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:29 Yeah. Phantom Black. Ooh, looks good on you.

Lex Fridman 22:31 I feel like I was sponsored to say this.

Joe Rogan 22:33 I think you need that.

Lex Fridman 22:33 But, uh-

Joe Rogan 22:34 You want it.

Lex Fridman 22:34 ... I hope I was. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:36 Uh, MKBHD-

Lex Fridman 22:36 I hope I get a free phone outta this.

Joe Rogan 22:37 ... had a great review of the, the Ultra. He makes it very exciting.

Lex Fridman 22:40 Yeah, he makes everything exciting.

Joe Rogan 22:41 He's great.

Lex Fridman 22:42 Everything just looks super sharp and crisp and sexy. Just everything.

Joe Rogan 22:45 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 22:46 I just wanna buy all of whatever he says.

Joe Rogan 22:47 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 22:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:48 He's so smooth.

Lex Fridman 22:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:50 He's so smooth-

Lex Fridman 22:51 And so nonchalant.

Joe Rogan 22:51 ... in his reviews. Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 22:52 He's so just relaxed.

Joe Rogan 22:54 He's, um, an Android guy. You know? There's a, a lot of those tech guys that review things are Android guys because you're constantly taking your SIM card out of one phone-

Lex Fridman 23:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:03 ... and putting it in another. I got an iPhone 12, and, uh, I tried to get it registered at Verizon. It took an hour and a half. It didn't work. I bought it online at the Apple Store. I got it delivered. Took an hour and a half to get everything. They're like, "We can't figure out how to do this and we, we might have to change your plan." I'm like, "Jesus fucking Christ." Finally they got it.

Lex Fridman 23:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:23 They got it up and running. I'm like, "Oh, it's great. It's different. It's more square." Same fucking phone.

Lex Fridman 23:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:28 It's not much different, right? For what I do, I mean, I'm not playing games. I'm just making phone calls and taking pictures. The camera on the 11 was awesome. Camera on the 12's awesome. The next morning, on my way to the fucking airport-

Lex Fridman 23:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:40 ... and it just stops working. Just completely stopped working. Wouldn't make phone calls. I couldn't call Verizon on it. Couldn't do anything.

Lex Fridman 23:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:47 It just, it, it said, "Please contact Verizon." It, and then I'm like, "Oh, you sons of bitches." So then I had to call them and I just reactivated my 11.

Lex Fridman 23:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:56 I, I have this fucking brick of a 12 just sitting in my dresser.

Lex Fridman 24:01 Hmm. It's like the buying the treadmill that you never use. Or Jamie and I were just talking about the Ableton L- uh, Live Push. Uh, sorry, what's it, what is it?

Joe Rogan 24:10 What is it?

Narrator 24:10 Yeah, that's a little deep.

Joe Rogan 24:11 What are you saying?

Narrator 24:12 It's a musical instrument, like, uh, tool.

Lex Fridman 24:14 So actually, uh, Grimes uses that to compose her music. Uh-

Joe Rogan 24:18 What is it?

Lex Fridman 24:19 Um, it's a thing that, uh... So there's a recording software called Ableton Live and there's a Push device where you can, like, tap it to do a beat, like, do, do, do. And you can, like, mix stuff. You can loop things.

Joe Rogan 24:30 Oh, okay.

Lex Fridman 24:31 And there's people online you can watch and they do, like, they create m- like incredible...

Joe Rogan 24:34 See right there?

Narrator 24:35 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 24:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:35 Oh, that looks dope. That looks like a, a giant Simon Says machine.

Narrator 24:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 24:39 ... th- doesn't it look like something you wanna learn and use-

Joe Rogan 24:42 It does.

Lex Fridman 24:42 ... to create, uh, cool stuff? So I got it, like, two years ago.

Joe Rogan 24:45 Let me hear some of this.

Narrator 24:46 Uh, well, what you make out of it is what you decide ultimately. (instrumental music)

Lex Fridman 24:52 "Play melodies and chords in any key." Oh, this is like a commercial.

Narrator 24:55 It's just like the ad for it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:57 It does look pretty dope.

Lex Fridman 24:58 The... Well, but the point is, it's a symbol of all my failures in life because I've got it and it's been sitting in a box just looking at me-

Joe Rogan 25:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 25:05 ... just like that brick of a phone. Just saying, "This is, this is why you're a failure because you can't take three or four hours to read a fucking manual or tutorial or learn how to actually use this."

Joe Rogan 25:15 Maybe a YouTube video would get you.

Lex Fridman 25:18 It g- well, no. It gets (laughs) as I was talking to Jamie, is (laughs) it gets you in a way... It's both exciting, inspiring, and depressing because they're so good and they make it e- look so easy. Like, "Look, you can just tap a beat and you can start..." But when you actually, like, start to learn how to use it, like Ableton Live, the software, you realize, "Oh, there's all these buttons." And you, you, there's-

Joe Rogan 25:40 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 25:40 ... there's all these things you have to learn. Like, "How do I even record just the basic... Just even our conversation, how do I record that?" And, and then you have to realize there's, like, shortcuts you have to learn. You basically have to sit down, embrace the suck, embrace the learning curve of saying, "Okay. On, on Monday I'm going to read this tutorial and I'm going to get it done and, uh, you know, learn something new." A- and, you know, doing that alone is really difficult when nobody's really pushing you.

Joe Rogan 26:09 Hmm.

Lex Fridman 26:09 I don't know. That's, that's, uh, that's probably a metaphor for a lot of things we fail to do in life, is like always putting it off, and putting it off, and putting it off something that actually will probably bring, like me in this case, a lot of joy.

Joe Rogan 26:23 I'm sure you're accurate.

Lex Fridman 26:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:26 But you have to, you have to be a little bit less harsh on yourself because you're very productive. The problem with you is you do so many things.

Lex Fridman 26:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:35 Between jujitsu and working out-

Lex Fridman 26:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:37 ... and having-

Lex Fridman 26:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:38 ... fucking phone calls with David Goggins where he talks you into things. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 26:41 Okay. Can I just talk about that for a second? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:44 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 26:44 Okay. Okay. So this is why, this is... Yo- you've told me before not to read comments, but I do write comments on Instagram. An- and his, he's, he put a story out, I think, yesterday, uh, saying that he's doing the 48-mile challenge again, f- 4x4x48 where you run four miles every four hours. And like a, like a fucking idiot-

Joe Rogan 27:06 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 27:07 ... I commented. I thought, like, nobody would know. I could just, like, I said, "I'm in."

Joe Rogan 27:13 No.

Lex Fridman 27:13 I wrote, "I'm," I wrote, "I'm in," and I thought I would get, like, positive, like, and then people would be like, "Oh, cool," like, talk to me about it, and I could do it peacefully at home. Uh, so it's March 5th, I think is when he's doing it, which is nice. He announced it, like, down the line a little bit. Uh, (laughs) he, he calls me within seconds of me posting that.

Joe Rogan 27:34 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 27:34 (laughs) He's, uh, he's like-

Joe Rogan 27:36 "Lex, good to hear from you."

Lex Fridman 27:37 Yeah. "What's up brother?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:39 "Stay hard."

Lex Fridman 27:40 (laughs) I'm in. There you are. Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 27:43 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 27:44 Uh... And then, and then he calls and he's like, he's like-

Joe Rogan 27:48 Let me, let me hear his video. Let me hear what he says. Start it from the beginning.

Narrator 27:53 All right. It's that time of year again, the second annual 4x4x48. For some of you who don't know what that is, basically you run four miles every four hours for 48 hours. Some of you out here don't like running, can't run, you have bad knees, bad hips, bad ankles, walk. Do whatever you can do, you know, in that period of time when you're supposed to be working out. So that being said, a lot of you out here did it last year. It was a huge success. Make sure that you have, you know, like logistics set up. There's gonna be times of night when you run at 4:00, you know, in the morning, midnight, different times, you know. The fucking boogeyman comes out at nighttime.

Joe Rogan 28:38 (laughs)

Narrator 28:38 So make sure that you have, you know, safety parameters in place. Run with somebody. Do whatever the fuck you have to do to keep yourself safe, just like last year. All right. That said, um, this year I wanna give away some items. And I've been talking about it a lot more, but I have some, you know, new shorts in stock. So this year I'm doing tons of giveaways for those of you who go above and beyond, and what that means is, some people last year raised thousands of dollars-

Lex Fridman 29:09 Yeah. This is all for charity.

Narrator 29:10 ... doing this 4x4x48.

Joe Rogan 29:11 Oh.

Narrator 29:11 Tons of people, got tons of people involved in the 4x4x48. Did, did... Several things they did outside the box thinking to raise awareness for their causes, their charities, raise awareness for fitness. Whatever it was, it was great to see that. Last year I had nothing to give away. I just saw these amazing stories. I was being tagged in amazing stories. Didn't have anything to give away. This year that's a different fucking story. I have a lot of things to give away.

Lex Fridman 29:38 This is, like, the nice version of David Goggins-

Narrator 29:40 So, we got some new shorts in stock.

Lex Fridman 29:40 ... the thoughtful version.

Joe Rogan 29:41 I know, right? It's unusual.

Narrator 29:41 This right here is one of them. Think it's taking souls down the back.

Lex Fridman 29:45 Yeah.

Narrator 29:46 I also have this shirt right here I'll be giving away. Um, it's the new "Stay Hard" shirt.

Joe Rogan 29:52 (laughs) Okay.

Lex Fridman 29:54 All right.

Narrator 29:55 I got this one right here.

Lex Fridman 29:55 So the, the thing is, he's like, (laughs) "Why, why don't you come down and we'll do it together?" And so him and I are going to do it together.

Joe Rogan 30:02 You're gonna do it in Vegas?

Lex Fridman 30:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:04 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Lex Fridman 30:05 And he says, but-

Joe Rogan 30:06 So you're gonna stay for two days with him in Vegas?

Lex Fridman 30:08 Yeah. With him. But this is not, like... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:11 Jamie Chan is there.

Lex Fridman 30:11 Okay.

Narrator 30:12 I feel like that's not... Like, I mean, it sounds like fun, but that's not a good idea.

Joe Rogan 30:15 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 30:15 That's not a good idea. Trust me, man. Because you're not sleeping.

Joe Rogan 30:18 Right.

Lex Fridman 30:18 So it's 48 hours of no sleep with David Goggins-

Joe Rogan 30:21 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 30:21 ... like, alone. Plus, he says, "We're gonna do a bunch of other crazy shit," like, extra shit. And, uh, and then he suggested that, the kind of shit that would break me.

Joe Rogan 30:32 Oh, boy.

Lex Fridman 30:32 And I was like, "I'll, I'll..." And I was like, "All right." But, uh, of course the-

Joe Rogan 30:36 Have you ever thought about joining the Navy Seals?

Lex Fridman 30:38 No.

Joe Rogan 30:39 Okay.

Lex Fridman 30:39 I do not wanna join the Navy Seals.

Joe Rogan 30:40 (laughs) Talked into it.

Narrator 30:42 Carry the boat.

Joe Rogan 30:43 Who's gonna carry the boat?

Lex Fridman 30:44 I think I want... I wanna be in the boat. I don't wanna carry the boat. But that said, I... Listen, it's, it's all fun. It's pretty easy. 48 miles is rough, but it's like-

Joe Rogan 30:55 That's why you can't learn that machine.

Lex Fridman 30:57 What do you mean?

Joe Rogan 30:58 ... that electronic music machine.

Lex Fridman 31:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:00 That's why you don't have any fucking time.

Lex Fridman 31:02 (sighs) But that (sighs) , tho, that, those are the demons you have to face. That, I'll be thinking about that electronic machine the whole time I'm running with him. No, but, uh, you know, uh, it's a good test. It's a good test of, like, going to the limit. It's the thing he talks about, right? Whatever, whatever that percent is, 10%, 40%.

Joe Rogan 31:17 40%.

Lex Fridman 31:18 The ... That, you know, just take your mind to the limit and push further. And he's a good person to do it with.

Joe Rogan 31:24 How are your knees?

Lex Fridman 31:25 Good. So I've never had tr- trouble ... Well, you know, knock on wood, never had troubles with-

Joe Rogan 31:29 Really?

Lex Fridman 31:29 ... my knees.

Joe Rogan 31:29 All your jujitsu, no knee trouble?

Lex Fridman 31:31 All the ju- I've never been injured in jujitsu. All the-

Joe Rogan 31:33 That's amazing.

Lex Fridman 31:34 Like, really hard training. It, I think it was because of the wrestling background, I've always approached everything in training with the following thought: like, "How can I train really hard, like twice a day? How can I put in a three-hour, four-hour sessions of training with killers without getting injured?" So, don't ... You know, make sure there's a strong frames, like just working on all the stabilizers-

Joe Rogan 31:57 Mm.

Lex Fridman 31:57 ... making sure to not wanna ... The ego, it's like silencing the ego. Just s- you know, if somebody is being rough in a way or s- if somebody's much better than me in a way that puts me in compromising positions, not in terms of being submitted, but in terms of just like putting pressure on some body parts that's going to break me-

Joe Rogan 32:17 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 32:17 Like, I can tell, like, it'll lead to injuries-

Joe Rogan 32:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 32:20 ... I'll, like, I'll not have my ego and try to beat them. I'll p- I'll flow with it more. And just making sure I put in the miles versus, like, uh, the wins, the individual wins along the way.

Joe Rogan 32:33 Mm.

Lex Fridman 32:33 And so maximizing that allowed me to, uh, just be lucky, honestly, because you can be just unlucky. And-

Joe Rogan 32:39 Yeah. I d- one of my worst injuries was unlucky, one of my ACL snaps.

Lex Fridman 32:43 Just, you know.

Joe Rogan 32:44 Was, uh, working out with a guy who's, like, really cool, easy to work out with, training. Uh, we were ... I was, uh, passing his guard. I was in half guard and, uh, my leg was sideways and he did a lockdown sideways.

Lex Fridman 32:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:57 So, you know lockdown normally extends you out this way.

Lex Fridman 32:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:00 But it went that way.

Lex Fridman 33:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:01 So it was like, he, like, locked me out that way.

Lex Fridman 33:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:05 And it just popped. 'Cause I was trying ... I ... It was really, um ... Wasn't a wise position to be in. Right?

Lex Fridman 33:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:13 Especially with the gi, because there's no friction. Or m- there's too much friction, rather.

Lex Fridman 33:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:17 I couldn't turn my knee over and slip out of it. I really should have gotten myself in a better position and just used my shin-

Lex Fridman 33:23 Yes.

Joe Rogan 33:24 ... and instep, and tried to push my way out, or tried some other methods to get out of the half guard. But I tried to sit sideways and I was gonna just try to p- and he extended his leg and I just ... Well, it was like a carrot (smacking sounds) .

Lex Fridman 33:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:35 It didn't even hurt.

Lex Fridman 33:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:36 It was crazy. I was like, "Ah!" And then he goes, "You okay?" I'm like, "I think so. Hold on a second." And then I moved around a little. I'm like, "It doesn't even hurt." But it just popped the ligament off.

Lex Fridman 33:46 Yeah, I think the lockdown is a really perfect position. Like, there's very few people in this world that can put me in lockdown because I'm so afraid of that position because of the injury.

Joe Rogan 33:54 Hm.

Lex Fridman 33:54 So, like, I'm very cautious and if they do, I'm not ... This isn't like a challenge, sorry if it makes ... Sounds like that. Obviously there's a million people way better than me and they put, they can put me in lockdown. But I'm very careful to avoid that position because I know how compromising it can put the, the knee in.

Joe Rogan 34:11 The knee. Yes.

Lex Fridman 34:12 The, uh, l- a- and, uh, funny enough is y- you know, like, usually, the better the person, the more you can trust them-

Joe Rogan 34:19 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 34:20 ... to do the lockdown-

Joe Rogan 34:21 Sure.

Lex Fridman 34:21 ... in the way that ... So, like, s- certainly, the more ... You know, you, you judge people (laughs) . I try not to judge people in regular life, but in jujitsu, I'll judge them harshly. In a sense I'll pick people who are not, uh, s- like, sp- like don't move in sudden ways that are-

Joe Rogan 34:38 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 34:38 ... just unexpected.

Joe Rogan 34:39 Right.

Lex Fridman 34:40 So, the, the kind of people I love training hard with are the people who are exceptionally good, but they move in ways that are like-

Joe Rogan 34:47 They flow.

Lex Fridman 34:48 They flow, but are not like be- uh, the Ben Askrens of the world that are funky. And, they, they, you know, like-

Joe Rogan 34:55 (laughs) .

Lex Fridman 34:55 ... that are creative, uh. The m- the names are slipping my mind of all the different jujitsu people who are super creative. They kinda surprise you-

Joe Rogan 35:05 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 35:05 ... with their creativity. I like, like, Roger Gracie style.

Joe Rogan 35:09 You would hate rolling with Eddie Bravo then.

Lex Fridman 35:11 I ... Well, I'm sure I would.

Joe Rogan 35:12 He'd put you in some weird spots.

Lex Fridman 35:14 Right. But I wouldn't have an ego and this ... You know, there's, like, hard training where you're trying to win-

Joe Rogan 35:18 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 35:19 ... and trying to improve, and there's training where you're, like, learning from each other and-

Joe Rogan 35:22 Right.

Lex Fridman 35:23 With him, I mean, he's already, like, probably several orders of magnitude better than me, so there's no reason for me to, like, try to beat him.

Joe Rogan 35:30 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 35:31 So ... But, like, lockdown's a good example of a position that kinda scares me in, in terms of just the pressure it puts on the, on the knees.

Joe Rogan 35:39 Yeah. He's got a very unusual game too. Like his students have a very unusual game, like, uh, Richie Martinez, uh, Boogeyman, has this crazy guard game and if you're not accustomed to someone who's got that level of flexibility... I've talked about Richie before too, because he comes from a weird, uh, background. He's a break dancer.

Lex Fridman 35:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:59 And because of that break dancing, he has incredible body control. You know, break dancers, it ... Like, people that think of break dancers, they don't necessarily equate it with, like, these incredibly athletic people, but my God, the break dancers of today ... Follow Stance Elements on, uh, Instagram.

Lex Fridman 36:16 The break dancer?

Joe Rogan 36:17 Yeah. No, it's a, it's a page that's dedicated-

Lex Fridman 36:19 Yeah,

Narrator 36:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:19 ... to break dancing. It is wild. We played one the other night with Jordan Burroughs, 'cause Jordan Burroughs was kinda making fun of break dancing.

Lex Fridman 36:25 Damn.

Joe Rogan 36:25 I'm like, "Dude, watch this." And there's this guy. Uh, I forget his name. I forget the guy's name. The, the craziest guy, his name is, uh ... Yeah, that's the guy. That's BBoy Tata. But-

Lex Fridman 36:40 As a Russian, I approve of the tracksuit.

Joe Rogan 36:42 You gotta see this guy break dance though. Like the shit that he does. If you can go to Stance Element ... Well, let's see what he does here.

Narrator 36:49 Oh, my gosh.

Joe Rogan 36:49 Look at this.

Lex Fridman 36:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:50 What the fuck? He's on one hand b- bouncing around like he weighs two pounds, and he's a big guy. He's a big, athletic guy.

Lex Fridman 36:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:58 And he, he can ... He's doing freakish shit, man.

Lex Fridman 37:01 Timing, balance, just general body awareness. It's incredible.

Joe Rogan 37:05 All of it, but the strength. He's-

Lex Fridman 37:06 Just-

Joe Rogan 37:06 His feet don't even touch the ground and he's-

Lex Fridman 37:08 Imagine how good that guy would be good at jujitsu or-

Joe Rogan 37:10 Oh, my God.

Lex Fridman 37:11 ... mixed martial arts.

Joe Rogan 37:11 Oh, without a doubt. But he's also, like-... incredibly powerful. Like, uh, the Stance Elements video, go to the Stance Elements page because there's a, there's a video of him in the ... Oh, it's looking at us. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 37:26 Ah, that's how I got to it.

Joe Rogan 37:27 That's hilarious. Um, if you see the Stance Elements page, they'll ... Scroll down to the video of him with, uh, I think he's got ... I think he's got a red track suit on there too.

Lex Fridman 37:40 It's not-

Joe Rogan 37:40 No. Scroll-

Lex Fridman 37:41 Good luck.

Joe Rogan 37:42 Th- they, they post a lot of stuff. This, this might-

Lex Fridman 37:45 There you go.

Joe Rogan 37:45 There it is, right there. Watch this. Just watch this. Look at that. What in the hell? I mean, dude.

Lex Fridman 37:53 And that, there's a lot of creativity in that too, so it's not just a ... Like, j- gymnasts have athleticism that's also incredible for martial arts, but this has just, like, creativity.

Joe Rogan 38:03 And he's doing it to music, and he's dancing to music.

Lex Fridman 38:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:05 I mean, it's phenomenal. There's another guy called, uh, B-Boy Pocket Kim. Have you ever seen that guy?

Lex Fridman 38:11 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 38:11 He doesn't even seem real.

Lex Fridman 38:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:14 Like, literally doesn't seem real.

Lex Fridman 38:16 Yep.

Joe Rogan 38:16 The g- the guy's abilities, th- though ... That's him in the upper right-hand corner, Jamie. Right, click on that. Watch this dude, because this literally does not seem real. Look at that. What i- what ... What the fuck, man?

Lex Fridman 38:31 Yeah. What the hell?

Joe Rogan 38:33 (laughs) He's amazing.

Lex Fridman 38:34 What's, uh, what's that called?

Joe Rogan 38:35 Oh, look at it. It's, it's me talking about him. I say, "He's the freak of all freaks."

Lex Fridman 38:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:38 That's hilarious. But he really is. I mean, he's incred- And that other guy, B-Boy Tata, is amazing.

Lex Fridman 38:43 (laughs) As, as you.

Joe Rogan 38:44 Actually, that's funny. That's so funny.

Lex Fridman 38:47 What, what's that style called where you're doing, like, a robot style, like, pop, lock-type si- situation, where you're ... It's not, it's not breakdancing. It's like-

Joe Rogan 38:55 I think it's called pop locking.

Lex Fridman 38:57 Is it? No? No, like, where you're, uh, f- Yeah. ... deforming your body in different ways that it's kinda like a robot dance, but on steroids. I th- I believe it's-

Joe Rogan 39:04 You know what I'm talking about?

Lex Fridman 39:05 Yeah, it's, it's like with Stylebender.

Joe Rogan 39:05 What style bender is.

Lex Fridman 39:06 You're making your body flow in all different kinds a- Wh- I don't wanna misper- uh, say it's hyphy, but I think it's called hyphy, and Stylebender does, uh-

Joe Rogan 39:12 High fee?

Lex Fridman 39:13 Yeah, it's H-Y-P-H-Y.

Joe Rogan 39:15 Hyphy. Hmm.

Lex Fridman 39:16 Let's see if I-

Joe Rogan 39:17 Okay.

Lex Fridman 39:17 Anyway, that's what ... But I think breakdancing is a, is a better, like, overall body awareness, muscle activity for, uh, for fighting. Definitely. G- Well, a guy like that, ... gymnastics.

Joe Rogan 39:31 ... like, a, a guy, like, like, whether it's, uh, uh, Kim, a, B-Boy Pocket Kim, or whether it's, uh, B-Boy Tata, those guys, those guys could do anything. You'd have to just show them the moves. Whether it's, uh, kickboxing or jujitsu, their, their body control is just incredible. The flexibility's incredible. The, the explosiveness and the contr- the contr- when that guy's jumping up and down on one hand, like, you have to be incredibly strong. There's Stylebender.

Lex Fridman 39:57 Yeah, that kind of stuff.

Joe Rogan 39:58 Is this it?

Lex Fridman 39:59 Yep.

Joe Rogan 40:01 This is just, uh, overall body awareness and dance skills. Look at that.

Lex Fridman 40:05 He is.

Joe Rogan 40:05 Look at him getting after it. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 40:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:09 He's gonna fight Jan Blachowicz for the light heavyweight title. That is a very interesting fight.

Lex Fridman 40:15 Uh, what do you, by the way, think about the Conor fight? The ... This weekend.

Joe Rogan 40:19 Uh, I'm very excited. Unfortunately, I'm gonna be ... I think I'll be getting off stage right around the time it starts.

Lex Fridman 40:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:27 Because we're doing these shows-

Lex Fridman 40:29 Chapelle, uh, Dave Chappelle versus Conor McGregor.

Joe Rogan 40:32 Well, the problem is, uh, we picked a bunch of dates.

Lex Fridman 40:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:36 And D- Dave does some dates with, like, music, and he's like, "You know, which dates you wanna do?" So I pick these dates, and I didn't even recognize that I picked the 23rd-

Lex Fridman 40:46 Damn.

Joe Rogan 40:46 ... which is the day of the fight. It's all right.

Lex Fridman 40:48 Who do you ... Who, who do you got?

Joe Rogan 40:50 I do not know.

Lex Fridman 40:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:51 I do not know.

Lex Fridman 40:52 Always. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:52 I mean, I do not know.

Lex Fridman 40:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:54 Um, I think that Dustin has gotten far better, and Dustin is, um, much more durable at 155 pounds.

Lex Fridman 41:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:02 You know. But that said, Michael Johnson KO'd him at 155 pounds.

Lex Fridman 41:07 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 41:07 Um, Michael Johnson hits very hard, and he caught him with a perfect shot that could b- you know, legitimately knock out most 155 pounders. But he KO'd Justin Gaethje. He beat Max Holloway, which, uh, especially when you look at Max Holloway's-

Lex Fridman 41:21 That was crazy.

Joe Rogan 41:21 ... performance this weekend.

Lex Fridman 41:22 Like, incredible performance last night, couldn't he?

Joe Rogan 41:23 Maybe the b- best performance I've ever seen.

Lex Fridman 41:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:25 Against a guy who ... In Calvin Kattar's just a straight-up assassin.

Lex Fridman 41:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:29 Right? Um-

Lex Fridman 41:30 Yeah, those numbers were crazy. When you ... Uh, I saw that you put up the numbers. I didn't ... When I watched that fight, it didn't feel like that dominating of a performance as the numbers indicate. It was dominating, but it's ... What, what is it, like, a record for the most, uh-

Joe Rogan 41:45 Most strikes landed ever.

Lex Fridman 41:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:46 But then here's the crazy a- M- most strikes thrown and most strikes landed.

Lex Fridman 41:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:49 But here's the crazy thing. Those ... Most the time when you see, like, a lot of strikes landed, it's a ground fight.

Lex Fridman 41:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 41:54 Someone's on top of the guy and beating them up and, like, holding them down for five rounds. But with Max, it's all standup.

Lex Fridman 42:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:01 He's, he's in- insane.

Lex Fridman 42:03 What do you think if Conor said that he'll knock, knock out Poirier in the first 60 seconds?

Joe Rogan 42:08 Well, uh, you know, he's probably putting that in Poirier's head. You know, you gotta always think Conor's playing mind games. I mean-

Lex Fridman 42:13 He's being really nice. I don't know if you saw.

Joe Rogan 42:15 He is. That's crazy.

Lex Fridman 42:15 He's being really respectful of, like-

Joe Rogan 42:17 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:17 ... the ... Like, he's donated some money to the ... Poirier-

Joe Rogan 42:20 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:20 ... has a charity.

Joe Rogan 42:20 Yeah. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 42:21 Not sure what it is, but, uh, so there's, like, a lot of l- love back and forth.

Joe Rogan 42:26 I know, it's weird. Like-

Lex Fridman 42:27 Is it ... It might be a new Conor.

Joe Rogan 42:28 ... friendly Conor. Friendly Conor is a different Conor.

Lex Fridman 42:30 I gotta put ... I s- I, uh-

Joe Rogan 42:32 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 42:32 It's the Russian in me. I love Khabib. I would ... I, I know he, he's a fascinating human being, a fascinating human being. I hope he comes back and fights-

Joe Rogan 42:40 For Conor?

Lex Fridman 42:41 For Conor.

Joe Rogan 42:41 But what if Dustin wins? Does he, does he-

Lex Fridman 42:44 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:44 Is he compelled to fight Dustin again? 'Cause that was a close fight.

Lex Fridman 42:47 That was a good fight. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:48 Yeah. Listen, there was a moment in that fight where Dustin caught him in a guillotine, where I was like, "Whoa." Like, "That is tight." Like, and Dustin has a very good guillotine.

Lex Fridman 42:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:57 But Khabib got out of it.

Lex Fridman 42:59 That's the problem with people who are undefeated. It's like, where is the ceiling? 'Cause maybe Khabib wasn't going as h-

Joe Rogan 43:05 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 43:05 ... you know, that-

Joe Rogan 43:06 Or, you know, maybe that's how he stays undefeated. He gets that close to defeat because he's fighting world-class fighters, but his will and his ability is ju-... just enough to pop that head out and keep smashing you-

Lex Fridman 43:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:22 ... and eventually tap you.

Lex Fridman 43:24 Yeah, but you gotta admire-

Joe Rogan 43:25 He does.

Lex Fridman 43:25 ... the man whose, uh... So Khabib is talking about, what, like, agriculture, like farming? Mass... I don't know if you were paying attention to this.

Joe Rogan 43:33 No.

Lex Fridman 43:34 He's, he's talking like a businessman, but a businessman not, like, talking about, like, tequila or, uh, (laughs) like, new clothing line or maybe doing a podcast or something like that. I don't know. He's, he's talking about actually building farms and, like, honoring the culture of his people in the kind of way, the businesses that they build, honoring the, the, the dreams that his father had and his mom has. So, I mean, it's pr- yeah, that, that's pretty badass. That's pretty bad. But I'm gonna suck-

Joe Rogan 44:06 He's an amazing person.

Lex Fridman 44:07 ... the good... Uh, amazing in many ways, but also complicated, which is really interesting. I, I'd love to see how that, like, uh, wine or vodka, whatever, I know he doesn't drink, uh, ages.

Joe Rogan 44:20 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 44:20 I, I wonder because he's been so, so, so focused on fighting. You know, you have the, uh, Gvasikyan. I've talked about him before. He's from that culture. They became more and more philosophical and poetic and so on. So I think Khabib would be a good guest on this podcast in, like, 10, 20, 20 years.

Joe Rogan 44:40 Well, his English is much better now.

Lex Fridman 44:41 Yeah, it's really good.

Joe Rogan 44:41 I mean, uh, I would have him on anytime I want. You know, uh, when he... We first talked about it a long time ago, but he was struggling with his English, but his English is excellent now.

Lex Fridman 44:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:50 He can, he can talk really good. "I'm gonna smash your boy." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 44:55 (laughs) But his English is so, like, developed around, like, talking a little bit of trash in MMA. I don't know how good his English is developed in terms of being, like, philosophical for three hours in a podcast or, like, thoughtful about life.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Oh, I think he'd be fine. I think he'd be fine.

Lex Fridman 45:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:09 I think he, he can... You know, I've, I've seen him speak in interviews. I think he's fine.

Lex Fridman 45:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:14 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:14 Khabib, if you need a translator, my Russian's pretty good. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:17 We got, we got ourselves a Russian right here. I mean, dude, I had Yoel Romero on-

Lex Fridman 45:20 Yeah, that was incredible.

Joe Rogan 45:21 ... with Joey Diaz.

Lex Fridman 45:22 With Joey Diaz.

Joe Rogan 45:23 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:23 That, that worked out... That was incredible because, uh, his English is, well, uh, pretty good still.

Joe Rogan 45:29 Not bad.

Lex Fridman 45:30 He can still talk. Uh, and, uh, Joey adding the stories, that's a fascinating coupling. That's, like-

Joe Rogan 45:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:36 ... one of my favorite conversations, the going back and forth, the-

Joe Rogan 45:39 Very interesting.

Lex Fridman 45:39 It's music.

Joe Rogan 45:40 Yeah. Well, you know, they, they know so much about that Cuban culture too. It's... They know so much about, uh, each other.

Lex Fridman 45:47 Yeah, that's, that's... I think about the translation. He, he did it masterfully, obviously.

Joe Rogan 45:51 He really did. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:52 Uh-

Joe Rogan 45:52 No, Joey speaks fluent.

Lex Fridman 45:54 Right. Oh, well, both, both languages-

Joe Rogan 45:57 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 45:57 ... you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah, I think about that with, uh, obviously Russian. So I have the unique possibility to speak somewhat English (laughs) and, uh, Ru- Russian pretty well. It's like, "Who can I be a Joey Diaz for?"

Joe Rogan 46:12 Khabib.

Lex Fridman 46:13 I think... Well, I could... Khabib is already pretty, pretty good. Oh, yeah. I mean, here, let me do the, the pitch. "Hi, Khabib. Um, if you ever wanna come on The Joe Rogan Experience-"

Joe Rogan 46:22 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:22 "... and need a translator." No. Uh, I'd love to do it. I'd love to just sit silently and translate someone.

Joe Rogan 46:26 I don't think he needs a translator, though.

Lex Fridman 46:27 He doesn't.

Joe Rogan 46:27 No.

Lex Fridman 46:27 That's the problem.

Joe Rogan 46:28 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:29 Stop learning English. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:30 "Hello, you."

Lex Fridman 46:31 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 46:32 He's not... Yoel is, uh, you know, his, his, his English is, uh, much, much more, um, uh, it's much more limited.

Lex Fridman 46:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:42 Right?

Lex Fridman 46:42 But it also has an art to it as well.

Joe Rogan 46:45 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 46:45 Just the simplicity of it. You know, just like Joey Diaz, who, like, mispronounces half the things he says.

Joe Rogan 46:51 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:51 Is, uh-

Joe Rogan 46:52 He does it on purpose, though.

Lex Fridman 46:53 Oh, he does it... Okay.

Joe Rogan 46:53 Kind of.

Lex Fridman 46:54 He does it on purpose.

Joe Rogan 46:54 Sort of.

Lex Fridman 46:55 We never know.

Joe Rogan 46:55 He calls Khabib, "Khalibib." (laughs)

Lex Fridman 46:59 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:00 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:00 But, uh, but, uh, the result, like, with, uh, Yoel is, like, it's almost a caricature of the, the, uh, like, the superhero fighter. Right?

Joe Rogan 47:12 Yeah. Right.

Lex Fridman 47:13 He's, like... He's built like... He's probably has the... one of the most intimidating, like, builds in, in mixed martial arts.

Joe Rogan 47:21 You think so?

Lex Fridman 47:22 Well, who else?

Joe Rogan 47:24 Yoel. Yoel's got the most intimidating build, for sure. Ever.

Lex Fridman 47:29 Well, then there's the heavyweights, right? Uh-

Joe Rogan 47:32 Francis Ngannou.

Lex Fridman 47:32 Francis Ngannou. Right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:33 He's, he's just all around terrifying.

Lex Fridman 47:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:36 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 47:36 And, uh-

Joe Rogan 47:37 But Yoel is, like... Yoel doesn't even look like a real person when you meet him. He just doesn't look real. He's so big, he doesn't look real. He's apparently gonna fight light heavyweight in Bellator.

Lex Fridman 47:47 What's light heavyweight?

Joe Rogan 47:48 Like, 205.

Lex Fridman 47:49 205. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:50 I think he's gonna move up to 205. He's so big, you know.

Lex Fridman 47:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:53 That's... The struggle to get to 185 at his age. I believe he's 44 now, which is crazy. He's just completely shredded at 44. Like, full six pack, no body fat.

Lex Fridman 48:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:07 Looks like a, a Greek god. Doesn't look like he's aged a day-

Lex Fridman 48:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:10 ... in all the years he's been fighting.

Lex Fridman 48:13 I, I don't think he's ever talked about diet or anything like that, right?

Joe Rogan 48:16 "Whatever!"

Lex Fridman 48:17 Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:18 "I eat Cuba food."

Lex Fridman 48:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:20 I mean, I don't know what he eats, but, I mean, he's gotta be eating-

Lex Fridman 48:23 Hard work.

Joe Rogan 48:24 He's gotta be eating fairly clean. Look at him.

Lex Fridman 48:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:27 (laughs) He's in a cryo chamber laughing and smiling.

Lex Fridman 48:31 I've never seen that guy... He's like the complete polar opposite of me, he's never... He's always happy.

Joe Rogan 48:36 Yeah. Yeah, he's always, always happy and smiling.

Lex Fridman 48:40 And I'm glad you, um... Another guy who's shredded is, uh, Burroughs, uh, Jordan Burroughs. I'm, I'm glad you had him on here.

Joe Rogan 48:46 Oh, he was amazing.

Lex Fridman 48:47 He's a special, special human.

Joe Rogan 48:48 Well, uh, uh, when you are that kind of an athlete and also a wrestler, like, those guys, they don't get a lot of accolades. They don't get a lot of press. They don't get the attention of the media, of the, the love of the crowds. It's a, it's a different world. They do it for the love of wrestling and the love of competing in one of the most difficult physical pursuits known to man.

Lex Fridman 49:14 Yeah. Uh, that, that makes it ju- just like he was saying, it makes it more-I don't know, m- money almost gets in the way. I know it's a horrible thing to say, that, it- it- it's ... People should get paid for-

Joe Rogan 49:25 I know what you're saying, though. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 49:26 ... putting their body on the line. But when you don't get paid, which is what makes Olympics special, I think, th- y- you know, you don't get, uh, especially in the early journey, you don't get paid at all or much. It's ... Makes it special. Makes it so pure about the sport. And wrestling represents that, that, uh, amazingly, uh, well. I talked to, um ... So Jordan Bowers is this, uh, badass new talent. I talked to Dan Gable. I don't know if you know who that is.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Sure. Of course.

Lex Fridman 49:53 Yeah. He, uh, that was-

Joe Rogan 49:55 They offered him up for the podcast, so I would love to have him on, but-

Lex Fridman 49:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:58 I want to do it in person. Did you do it remotely?

Lex Fridman 50:00 No, in person.

Joe Rogan 50:01 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:01 I flew down to Iowa.

Joe Rogan 50:02 Oh, wow.

Lex Fridman 50:03 It was... I stayed with him. So I thought-

Joe Rogan 50:04 When- Is that up yet? Did you release that?

Lex Fridman 50:05 Uh, yeah, I just uploaded. Peo- people should check-

Joe Rogan 50:08 Today?

Lex Fridman 50:08 Uh, no, no. Um, uh, like a month ago.

Joe Rogan 50:11 Oh, okay.

Lex Fridman 50:11 People should ... I actually re-uploaded it, because, uh, I, I was so sad. I never, I never care about views or listens and so on, so it's good that we're mentioning it. Uh, please go there, check out Dan Gable. (laughs) 'Cause I was so sad that it only got n- not much views relative to others, and I was like, "This is one of the most special humans in the world."

Joe Rogan 50:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 50:32 And-

Joe Rogan 50:32 His story's crazy too. About how he became that dedicated and focused when his sister was killed when he was 15.

Lex Fridman 50:38 Yeah. Raped and killed. And it was just ... Uh, so the wrest- his wrestling brought the family together. And just, I mean, you couldn't write a better script (laughs) because, uh, he w- he went undefeated until his last match in college. And he lost his last match in college against a person he should've beat, because he took a lot of stuff, you know ... He got ... He let himself get distracted. And of course, a guy who's never lost, losing, that like, that does something to you. That he turned another ... He went to another level. And, and then he won the Olympic gold medal without letting up a single point, just domination.

Joe Rogan 51:19 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:20 And j- and then, and then coaching-wise, he then went to Iowa and coached. I think he's the most winningest coach in NCAA history, or like up there. And just taught this whole culture of just domination, which is tough in this new ... I mean, he struggles with this now. Obviously, he has daughters and family, so he's like softened up a little bit. There's still a madman in there. Like, he has a shed, and he goes in the shed and j- like there's demons in there.

Joe Rogan 51:47 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:47 But-

Joe Rogan 51:47 He works out in the shed, right?

Lex Fridman 51:49 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:49 Still, he has videos of it.

Lex Fridman 51:50 It's, it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 51:51 Even as an older man.

Lex Fridman 51:52 He doesn't-

Joe Rogan 51:53 Like, trains very hard.

Lex Fridman 51:54 And th- I think they built the shed, so like, he's like, "In order to maintain my marriage, I have to, I have to-"

Joe Rogan 51:59 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 51:59 "... separate those two worlds."

Joe Rogan 52:01 I think he's got fake hips and fake knees now.

Lex Fridman 52:04 Fake everything.

Joe Rogan 52:05 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:05 Yeah. It's-

Joe Rogan 52:05 Shoulders as well?

Lex Fridman 52:07 Uh, I don't know about the shoulders. But I love his ... The- Sorry.

Joe Rogan 52:11 What was that?

Lex Fridman 52:12 Oh. I was trying to get the cam up. It's, uh-

Joe Rogan 52:15 Oh. Yeah.

Lex Fridman 52:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:15 Here it goes. This is his shed, shed gym. There he is. Yeah, I mean, he's, he's all busted up. And he still trains very hard. But, uh, he's got hip replacements. I think he's got knee replacements as well. Did you ask him about those?

Lex Fridman 52:32 Uh, no, not about ... (laughs) Not about those. I was so focused on kind of, um, his mindset. He's basically David Goggins before David Goggins, which is just this mindset. I remember he said that, "I've always wanted to train so hard that they would have to carry me off." You know, like a ... Be near death. "They would have to carry me off the mat." And he's never succeeded.

Joe Rogan 52:58 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 52:58 And he was proud of his daughter, uh, because she, she's a swimmer, and she passed out during a swim meet j- in the pool, and he was proud of her-

Joe Rogan 53:06 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 53:06 ... that she succeeded where her father failed. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:11 Jesus Christ.

Lex Fridman 53:12 So that drive, I mean, uh, what can you say about that? The, the thing is, the ... I don't know how often you're in the Midwest, in like that kind of Midwest. Uh, so I also saw Tom Brands, who is the current Iowa coach, and I spent a day with him, I spent a day with, uh, uh, uh, Dan Gable. And like, I wanted to stay there forever. The family feeling.

Joe Rogan 53:34 Yeah?

Lex Fridman 53:34 Just the love. Like, I don't ... It's a very ... You know, we talk about California with the homeless and all the ... You forget, you forget how like good humans can be to each other. Like, uh, everybody in like New York or even Boston or California, they're busy. They got, they got a thing going on, they go to the next thing and so on. Here, they're ... They were just sat back. They don't know who the hell I am. This was ... So this was recorded two years ago. I was like sitting on it, not ... I had demons around it, okay? Uh-

Joe Rogan 54:03 What kind of demons around it?

Lex Fridman 54:04 I felt like ... I felt I didn't do a, as good of a conversation as I could've. I felt like I failed one of my heroes. I don't know. I, I don't know. So, whatever. (laughs) But I was ... The, the, the-

Joe Rogan 54:19 What made you change your mind?

Lex Fridman 54:22 Uh ... Like, uh, a bunch of the Iowa folks nonstop messaging me like, "Come on, Dave."

Joe Rogan 54:28 "Where the fuck is the video?"

Lex Fridman 54:30 "Stop being a little bitch."

Joe Rogan 54:30 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 54:31 Uh, but ... And he was really, he was really nice to me. Uh, but there, there's a, there's a both a love in that family atmosphere, and a love within the focus that they've had. So for f- for so many years ... This is one of the magical things I experienced that made me even further believe that family can be beneficial for success, is that they're all in on this effort that Dan had to win the Olympic gold, to just succeed as a wrestling coach, just his whole life. They get it.

Joe Rogan 55:05 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 55:05 And they love him for it, and they kind of embrace it. And there's like this family atmosphere. Like, what they did ... And Tom Brands is the same, uh, o- Olympic gold medalist who, coach of Iowa, another guy who's just insane. He ... We sat down on the couch and just watched these like documentaries about-... people being badasses, like mountain climbing, just overcoming shit, as a family thing, as a family all together. And they've invited me like a nobody and I don't know. It, I've never felt that before and since, I think, because I don't go out to Midwest very much and it just felt like home. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 55:41 There's something to be said for that kind of life. The, the, there's a different way of life in, uh, like my good buddy Jon lives in, uh, Jon Dudley, he lives in Iowa and, uh, s- just different kind of people out there. You know, it's-

Lex Fridman 55:52 No Twitter, no Instagram, no-

Joe Rogan 55:55 Oh, he doesn't have that?

Lex Fridman 55:56 No.

Joe Rogan 55:56 No?

Lex Fridman 55:56 I mean, th- there might be something that somebody does for him, but-

Joe Rogan 56:00 But it's just small town life.

Lex Fridman 56:02 Small town life, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:03 I mean, there's good and bad, you know?

Lex Fridman 56:05 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 56:05 There's a lack of nuance there sometimes. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 56:09 (laughs) Well, definitely all Trump supporters there.

Joe Rogan 56:11 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 56:11 At the time.

Joe Rogan 56:12 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 56:12 Uh, is probably-

Joe Rogan 56:12 Why do you think that is? Why, why do you think that is? 'Cause, eh, here's a p- an- there's a, here's a narrative that I don't like and it's the, uh, Trump supporters are all racist. You know, I don't, I don't like that narrative. I don't think it's true and, uh, I think it's too simplistic and I think it's, uh, it... There's a lotta people that don't like a lot of what Democrats are pushing, whether it is, uh, you know, whatever the variables are, whatever the things are that, that they don't like about the Democrats. It doesn't mean they're racist, but this, this thing keeps coming up over and over again. Like, you can just say it. You can just say it and that Trump equals you're supporting racism, you support Biden, it means you are, you're, you're the future, you're progressive. And it's a weird, uh, it's a weird narrative-

Lex Fridman 57:01 Yes, sir.

Joe Rogan 57:02 ... that is very polarizing to all the people that voted for Trump that aren't racist, that just they, they don't like a lot of the things that Joe Biden stands for in terms of his politics and the way, you know, he w- the way he was with the Obama Administration and the way the Democrats have been throughout the election. There's a lotta... You know, they're allowed to have their opinions and I think we, we run a real dangerous risk in this country of, uh, separating people, like good versus evil and, uh, not just respecting people's differences and differences of opinions 'cause it's a diff-

Lex Fridman 57:37 And it's all just-

Joe Rogan 57:37 It's a different kind of discrimination.

Lex Fridman 57:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:39 You know, it's an intellectual discrimination. It's a cultural discrimination. It's a, it's a weird way of chastising people that don't share your ideas.

Lex Fridman 57:49 And in terms of white supremacists are racist, we, we focus on both the left and the right on the extremes, on the ridiculous examples.

Joe Rogan 57:57 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 57:57 Of, of the tiny 0.001% of the people, like with the, with the violence in the Capitol. You, you somehow equate that, you know, some of the people that, uh, stormed the Capitol are somehow equivalent to the 70 million or whatever that voted for Trump.

Joe Rogan 58:13 Right.

Lex Fridman 58:14 Uh, that, th- that, that kind of equivalent and the same is done on the other side. Everybody's, uh, is sort of the, uh, you know, the 80 or whatever million that voted for Biden are all social justice warriors-

Joe Rogan 58:25 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 58:26 ... and they hate America, right? So I get-

Joe Rogan 58:29 They hate the flag.

Lex Fridman 58:29 They hate the flag. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:31 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 58:31 I mean, one of the, you know, (laughs) one of the things that I do, does bother me about of, sort of the, I don't know, is it the left or something? Is, uh, not loving this country unapologetically. Just, I mean, criticizing but just, like, loving the incredible th- experiment that this is. And I think, uh, what I felt in terms of Dan Gable and so on, the w- the nature of their support for Trump was, uh, they were not like, "Ra-ra, Trump." It's just them more like-

Joe Rogan 59:00 "Ra-ra, America."

Lex Fridman 59:01 ... "Ra-ra, America."

Joe Rogan 59:02 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 59:02 They, they, the flags everywhere.

Joe Rogan 59:04 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 59:04 And it's not... It wasn't also, like, naive or delusional support for America, like, "Everything America does is right." It was more like, "This is an incredible country and I'm proud to be here." And not... Uh, this is not beyond criticizing and so on, being against wars and so on, but just b- being able to say, "I love America." Every time I say, "I love America," I get, I get private emails. Is, is like that, uh... Private emails and messages, so mes- public messages of support from Trump people. "I knew you loved Trump!" Right?

Joe Rogan 59:38 Oh, God. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 59:39 (laughs) It's like, why does saying, "I love America," equate to, "I love Trump"? It doesn't, to me.

Joe Rogan 59:44 It's weird.

Lex Fridman 59:44 It's, you could just love this country and be skeptical of all leaders that attain power. It, anybody with power, I think, deserves, uh, careful scrutiny and Trump is certainly one of them, Biden is certainly one of them, but you can still love this country. Like, that's why I think people that immigrate to this country can appreciate even further, to be honest, 'cause it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:00:07 ... it can be really shitty elsewhere. Uh, another way to do that is just by studying history is like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 That's too much work.

Lex Fridman 1:00:14 Too much work.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:00:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 But, yeah, I mean, coming from Russia, I mean-

Lex Fridman 1:00:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 ... the m- the difference in the freedom here versus there is...

Lex Fridman 1:00:22 Yeah, it's, uh, I mean, there's beautiful things about Russia too, like the, this, culturally speaking in, in terms of just, like, in the struggle of the w- I would say it came from the wars, the, the music, the art, the poetry, the writing, the science that came from the World War that impacted Russia way more than it did, uh, the United States, the World War II. I mean, tens of millions of people died. China, Russia, Europe obviously just they had to, uh, for a century struggle with the biggest existential questions of like good and evil, of, of losing most of your family to unjust slaughter or starvation in Ukraine in the 1930s. Like I mentioned before, my, my, my grandmother survived the, uh, w- something that people don't talk about. They say that Hitler is evil and so on. They don't often highlight-

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 Stalin.

Lex Fridman 1:01:17 ... the evil of Stalin. There's not enough talk about just this, the fact that he imposed, uh, just-... things on the people without any consideration of the suffering that that causes, so millions of people dar- uh, die from starvation.

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 Starvation, cannibalism.

Lex Fridman 1:01:35 Cannibalism.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 People were eating their children.

Lex Fridman 1:01:37 Yeah, it's crazy. It's, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 Yeah, if you read the depictions of it, you, it ... I- I've read some stuff that I, I, I couldn't continue, I couldn't finish 'cause it's so horrific.

Lex Fridman 1:01:47 You know, um, you should have Dan Carlin back on the podcast, by the way.

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 I would love to.

Lex Fridman 1:01:51 But I've been s- and you, he, he's been, uh, he's like a ... I don't know. I don't know what's a good metaphor but he released an episode now, like, once every year and it's always like an exci- it's like Christmas or whatever, uh, as, as a Jew, I, I feel weird saying that.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 What is he doing most of the time now?

Lex Fridman 1:02:07 Working on the podcast.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 So he releases this one episode once a year?

Lex Fridman 1:02:11 Well, he doesn't ... So he released, I wanna say three or four episodes this year, so it's been a productive year.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 In tw- you mean 2020, right? Not 2021, right?

Lex Fridman 1:02:20 2020, sorry, I apologize, 2020.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 Isn't that crazy?

Lex Fridman 1:02:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 What we do is not what he does.

Lex Fridman 1:02:25 No.

Joe Rogan 1:02:26 It's really rude to call what we do a podcast-

Lex Fridman 1:02:28 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 ... and call what he does a podcast.

Lex Fridman 1:02:30 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:02:31 But he has two, and I recommend people listen to it, he has two podcasts. One is Hardcore History and one is Common Sense.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:02:38 He shut down Common Sense for a while because he felt-

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 Too polarized by the-

Lex Fridman 1:02:42 Too polarized, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 ... political climate, right?

Lex Fridman 1:02:44 But he released an episode, people should listen. Uh, one he got a lot of shit for that was a little bit, I think, critical of Trump, but not between the lines. Not e- not directly, but he got shit for that before the election, was like staring into the iceberg. Basically worried. He's the opposite of me and this is (laughs) this is all full of optimism, but he was worried about where this country's headed. And he released a new episode, uh, I think Garbage In, Garbage Out about the ... You know, basically making a case for centrism, you know, for center left, center right in this country, as opposed to extremes. It's, it's poetic, it's beautiful, people should listen to it. But at ... It, it's done with the same kind of care that he does with the Hardcore History. He is, uh ... But he did release one extra Hardcore History. He inspired me to, um ... You mentioned what we do. He inspired me to try to, uh, do a solo thing, uh, l- like an episode on, um, on Hitler (laughs) on, uh, the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. So I've ... I read a book called, uh, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It's this huge volume. I recommend, uh, people read it. It, it tells the story of how Hitler came to power and f- it tells the story from the perspective of the person who was there, so it was written in the nine- in, uh, I wanna say '60s and '70s by a person who was a journalist that lived through it, and it's just, it's one of the best books on the entirety of the whole, the Third Reich project, the ... how evil came to be. And so I've been trying to, for the last two months, to do an episode, and I, I think it's gonna take another, like, year, because it sucks and it's hard. It's hard work. It's fascinating.

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 Yeah, to put together the way he does.

Lex Fridman 1:04:29 The way he does.

Joe Rogan 1:04:30 Very difficult.

Lex Fridman 1:04:30 And he's not ... He calls h- he doesn't call himself a his- historian so he's got ... Everybody got demons. His demons are, like, the historians that criticize him for getting something incorrectly, so he feels like he's never gonna live up to the accuracy required to, uh, sort of be respected by the academic historians.

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 There's also a problem with the academic historians don't like the fact that he's famous for that.

Lex Fridman 1:04:53 Yeah. Of course.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:53 That's always-

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 Yeah. There's a lot of ego involved.

Lex Fridman 1:04:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:56 ... in anything academic, right?

Lex Fridman 1:04:58 Yeah. But he's a storyteller-

Joe Rogan 1:04:59 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:04:59 ... and he's a masterful storyteller and s-

Joe Rogan 1:05:01 He's good at abandoning that-

Lex Fridman 1:05:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 ... that stance, you know, and saying, you know, being self-deprecating and saying he's not a, not a historian.

Lex Fridman 1:05:08 Yeah. So he's obsessed with, uh, Alexander the Great. He wants to do a whole series-

Joe Rogan 1:05:13 Mm-hmm.

Lex Fridman 1:05:13 ... on Alexander the Great, which is probably one of the most badass sort of, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 Conquerors.

Lex Fridman 1:05:18 ... conquerors in history. I think Tyson was obsessed with Alexander the Great.

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:05:22 Yeah. Uh, Genghis Khan too, so obviously, he did an amazing job of Genghis Khan.

Joe Rogan 1:05:26 That Wrath of the Khans is the greatest i- historical thing-

Lex Fridman 1:05:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 ... I've ever listened to in my life.

Lex Fridman 1:05:30 Yeah. (laughs) and eventually, he says he wants to try Hitler, but-

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Mm.

Lex Fridman 1:05:37 ... it's ... That one is, uh ... I struggle, I struggle with that one 'cause I think it's the most useful to understand because it's so modern. It's, uh, useful f- ... I feel like Hitler is a really interesting person to study in the context of Stalin as well, of communism, of fascism, the economic systems, how depression in the United States leads to that kind of, uh, um, leads eventually to violence, to conflict and violence, how a charismatic leader can take control of a populace. There's so much about human nature that you can learn from there that feels more directly relevant to us now than maybe even, like, Alexander the Great.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Mm.

Lex Fridman 1:06:16 It just feels like there's a lot of lessons.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 What was the criticism about the Trump episode?

Lex Fridman 1:06:22 The Tr- Rump episo- s- Steering Into the Iceberg, I think is the episode, it's called, I think the, the nature of the criticism was that, uh, Trump, uh, magnified the division, which ultimately shut down the ability of people of having nuanced conversations and to be able to reason. And whenever you, uh, d- destroy reason, you're not able to do what, uh, you're not mak- able to make the decisions that kinda keep this country great. You know? To, uh ... You're not able to think clear- like, grounded in, um, in, in, uh, b- like a, a, a deep, real, humble understanding of reality. You're more focused on the division, so you construct sort of narratives about the other side, that they're evil somehow, and you go into this battle. This isn't just Twitter, this is everywhere. And so his argument was that this kind of process, once it, uh, gets going-... you're going to have a charismatic leader that takes over, like Trump or somebody else, that then is going to make it worse and worse and worse. There's too much incentive to make it worse, and that's going to ultimately lead us to destroy this nation that was great.

Joe Rogan 1:07:38 Yeah. It's a different kind of mania than what grabbed Germany when Hitler took over. It's a different kind of mania because of social media and because there's just... Well, there's too many, t- too much information, and there's too many competing ideas for it to be, uh, the same sort of situation. But I think people were really worried because that... What happened with Hitler in World War II is... We would like to think that's outside of what's possible today, but I don't think we really believe that. I think deep down in our hearts, we know that a charismatic leader with all of the wrong intentions, with all of the right things lining up in terms of the economy falling apart, in terms of the, uh, the, the, the lack of, the lack of, uh, patriotism, uh, in general, or a feeling of insecurity by the nation. And then all of a sudden, they get, they get i- uh, r- exhumed. They get r- risen from the dead by some charismatic person who can talk people into doing wild shit. And I think we saw a little bit of that with the storming of the Capitol, when he said, "You have to be strong. It's a show of force." So when I, when I saw that, I was like, "Oh, Jesus Christ." Like, those words... And there's a real question on whether or not those words were inciting and whether or not it's, uh, what he did was illegal. Uh, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer, obviously. But that, th- but the rhetoric, that kind of rheti-

Lex Fridman 1:09:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:22 ... rhetoric, like, you have to show strength, is one of the... What did, what did ex- exactly did Trump say? 'Cause he said something along the lines of, "You can't be weak. You have to be strong. You have to show... They need to show a force," or something like that.

Lex Fridman 1:09:36 Yeah. Tha- that's a really good point 'cause you have to read his words exactly, 'cause every time I read his words, they don't... On paper, they don't sound as dramatic as I think as they're being reported on.

Joe Rogan 1:09:47 Right. Sometimes you gotta, like, look at it again.

Lex Fridman 1:09:49 And, uh, well, you also have to... Speaking of Hitler, you have to listen to the, the, the delivery too.

Joe Rogan 1:09:54 Oh, yeah.

Lex Fridman 1:09:54 And I don't think... I think people should, uh... I think BBC did a really nice program on Hitler, on the charisma of Hitler. He, he-

Joe Rogan 1:10:01 He had way better meth.

Lex Fridman 1:10:03 The, the, their drugs are just the best.

Joe Rogan 1:10:05 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:10:06 The Nazi Germany had the best. There's a really good book on, uh, the drugs that fueled the Nazi regime. I feel like... Damn it, I wish I, I remembered the title. But it's a book entirely (laughs) about all of the drugs that they loved that fueled that entire war, the enti- entire regime, and, uh, it's, it's probably a... It can... You, you know, we don't talk about it often. It's like y- you could probably attribute most of the Nazi regime to just really good drugs.

Joe Rogan 1:10:33 You could j... R- ch- a lot of it, like, legitimately.

Lex Fridman 1:10:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:36 Like, one of the thought... There was, uh... Apparently, there was... God, I wish I remember who told me this. But there was a moment where Hitler was supposed to meet Mussolini, and he was apparently just, like, broken down. He was completely exhausted. I can't remember. Jamie, do you remember who brought this up on the podcast?

Narrator 1:10:52 No. 'Cause I kind of tried to look it up before, and I couldn't find it, so I don't remember who told us this story.

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 So someone told us this story where Hitler was going to meet Mussolini, and Hitler was just, just beyond exhausted. And they pump him full of testosterone-

Lex Fridman 1:11:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 ... and cocaine.

Lex Fridman 1:11:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:06 They injected cocaine into him and testosterone, and he meets Mussolini, and he just starts ranting. (imitates German language) . He just fucking corners him and Coke talks at him for, like, five hours. And Mussolini was ready to back out of the war. Mussolini's like, "What are we doing? Why we doing this?"

Lex Fridman 1:11:22 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:23 And Hitler just fucking, uh, berates him until he, he gives up, and he, he goes along with it.

Lex Fridman 1:11:29 Well, so there's a really interesting r- relationship with Mussolini, but Mussolini was always on board. He was like, "But can we just not do this, the whole thing you're doing?"

Joe Rogan 1:11:38 (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:11:38 Like, "Do we need to go to war?" But he was... They were kind of buds, uh, and he was able to convince him. So that's an interesting set of conversations that people should look at. The really interesting set of conversations is between, uh, Hitler, Chamberlain, uh... So between Hitler, Britain, and France. And, uh, my favorite part is betw- when it was France, Britain, and Czechoslovakia, so in the very early days. And Hitler was just... It's clear to me there's an element of, like,

Lex Fridman 1:12:08 Jeffrey Epstein-style smoothness and charisma, that in the room he was able to convince people that he ultimately wants peace. And at the same time, there's this moment that I really... Is so dark. Um, it kind of haunts me. I'm not sure exactly-

Joe Rogan 1:12:24 But, you know, the Jeffrey Epstein thing is a weird comparison because Eric Weinstein says Jeffrey Epstein wasn't smooth at all.

Lex Fridman 1:12:32 Uh, I know that's what Eric says.

Joe Rogan 1:12:34 Eric is-

Lex Fridman 1:12:35 I love Eric very much.

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 ... far smarter than the average human being. Far smarter, to the point where he's not buying anybody's bullshit. And he met with Epstein, and he said right away, he's like, "Well, this is a construct." He's like, "He's an actor. This is a construct. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about."

Lex Fridman 1:12:51 (laughs) I-

Joe Rogan 1:12:51 He, he thought it was 100% bullshit.

Lex Fridman 1:12:53 I love Eric, but, uh... And he is indeed brilliant, uh, probably way smarter than me, but he's also flawed.

Joe Rogan 1:13:01 No.

Lex Fridman 1:13:02 (laughs) Like all humans are.

Joe Rogan 1:13:04 What?

Lex Fridman 1:13:04 And I d- I disagree with him on that one. I, I-

Joe Rogan 1:13:07 Well, listen, did you meet Jeffrey Epstein?

Lex Fridman 1:13:09 No, but I've met a lot of people who met him.

Joe Rogan 1:13:12 Well, he did.

Lex Fridman 1:13:12 I-

Joe Rogan 1:13:12 Who'd you meet that met him?

Lex Fridman 1:13:13 Uh, well, just the... MIT, so all the scientists, so all... Like, everybody met him. This is the dark thing.

Joe Rogan 1:13:21 Right.

Lex Fridman 1:13:21 All the scientists met him.

Joe Rogan 1:13:22 Let me help you out here.

Lex Fridman 1:13:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:23 Here's the difference. Here's one of the differences.

Lex Fridman 1:13:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:26 First of all, Eric has gotten laid.

Lex Fridman 1:13:29 ... yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 It's happened before.

Lex Fridman 1:13:31 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:13:31 He's- he probably got laid a lot when he was younger.

Lex Fridman 1:13:32 Just to clarify, people-

Joe Rogan 1:13:33 Smooth, smooth talker.

Lex Fridman 1:13:34 ... I have also gotten laid.

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 Congratulations. (clapping)

Lex Fridman 1:13:36 That's not what Joe is referring to. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:38 No, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about a lot of these scientists.

Lex Fridman 1:13:40 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:41 A lot of these scientists, th- that is their kryptonite. It's not a coincidence that this guy-

Lex Fridman 1:13:48 Allegedly.

Joe Rogan 1:13:49 Allegedly. It's not a coincidence this guy allegedly involved a huge part of the scientific community in this crazy thing where he's got a fucking island and he ships off these brilliant minds over there-

Lex Fridman 1:14:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:02 ... allegedly, and introduces them to a lot of these ladies, allegedly.

Lex Fridman 1:14:05 Okay. Sorry, I- I meant-

Joe Rogan 1:14:06 I mean, listen, that is the kryptonite.

Lex Fridman 1:14:08 I- I meant allegedly, referring to the kryptonite of sex being a kryptonite for scientists.

Joe Rogan 1:14:13 For dorks.

Lex Fridman 1:14:14 For d- dorks. Listen-

Joe Rogan 1:14:15 Yes, listen.

Lex Fridman 1:14:15 ... you and I will always disagree on this.

Joe Rogan 1:14:17 It's-

Lex Fridman 1:14:17 But there's-

Joe Rogan 1:14:19 Disagree? Uh, there's no disagreeing.

Lex Fridman 1:14:20 I don't think that we can put all scientists in the group of dorks. But yes, there's a lot of dorks-

Joe Rogan 1:14:25 No, you can't put Eric in there.

Lex Fridman 1:14:26 Well-

Joe Rogan 1:14:26 That's why I saw through the bullshit. (laughs)

Lex Fridman 1:14:30 (laughs) I don't know. Uh, listen-

Joe Rogan 1:14:31 Okay. I- I hear what you're saying and I-

Lex Fridman 1:14:33 ... that's- that's a little bit ... That's conspiratorial, I think, because to say-

Joe Rogan 1:14:35 There's many elements.

Lex Fridman 1:14:36 I think- I think what Eric says, which is like, uh, he was just, uh, a tool of something bigger, is ... That's a problem to me because it removes the res- uh, the responsibility of evil from an individual and saying that there's some other evil behi- beside- in- in the darkness. It's- it's possible-

Joe Rogan 1:14:54 Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,