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The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #1625 - Demi Lovato

Demi Lovato is an award-winning singer, author, and subject of the new YouTube documentary "Demi Lovato: Dancing with the Devil". Look for her latest album, "Dancing with the Devil... the Art of Starting Over", on April 2.

Joe RoganhostDemi Lovatoguest
Jun 27, 20242h 29mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:32

    Reusable water bottles, lemon water, and ditching single-use plastic

    1. JR

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Are you one of those people that bring water with you everywhere you go?

    2. DL

      I do.

    3. JR

      Why do you do that?

    4. DL

      Well, I like to put lemon in it. Uh, it makes me drink more 'cause I just like the taste, and it saves plastic.

    5. JR

      Oh, look at you.

    6. DL

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      Environmentally conscious.

    8. DL

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      That's good. Uh, yeah, we start- we moved to, um, having these metal cups and have water in these things.

    10. DL

      Oh, I didn't even know these were metal.

    11. JR

      Yeah. Because we-

    12. DL

      Cool.

    13. JR

      ... used to bring bottles of water in here.

    14. DL

      Right.

    15. JR

      Those plastic bottles. And after a while, you're like, "What am I doing?"

    16. DL

      I know. I had an in- investment in a water company one time, and I actually ended up selling the investment because I, I don't wanna promote, like-

    17. JR

      Bottles of water.

    18. DL

      ... all the plastic, yeah.

    19. JR

      You know, they can make, um, plastic outta other stuff.

    20. DL

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      It's... They can make biodegradable plastic outta hemp, and th- they, they could be making water bottles outta stuff that would naturally biodegrade in the earth.

    22. DL

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      They could, but they don't. (laughs)

    24. DL

      Yeah, exactly.

    25. JR

      But, so we have a water filter machine, and then we just moved to metal, so that's our thing.

    26. DL

      Nice.

    27. JR

      What's all the stickers all over that thing?

    28. DL

      I like to... Well, it was a very bland water bottle, and so-

    29. JR

      So this is, like, your bottle. You have this one bottle-

    30. DL

      This is my bottle, yes. (laughs)

  2. 2:32 – 3:30

    Why Demi avoids industry circles and seeks “normal life” balance

    1. DL

      Um, I just... Yeah, like, I don't, um... I don't know. I've kind of, I've kind of actually always just stuck to myself really. I don't have a ton of industry friends. <|agent|><|en|>

    2. JR

      That's probably really healthy.

    3. DL

      Yeah. Just, it's, it's nice to, like... Like, my, my best friend that I brought out here, her name's Suzie, and I brought her on this trip. And just, like, for instance, one day I was at home, and I had been doing stuff all day, you know, interviews and photo shoots and this and that, and she was like... I walked in the house, and she was like, "Yo, D, so you've been doing rock star shit all day. You wanna do some normal shit?"

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. DL

      And I was like, "Hell yeah." (laughs) And that's like, that's what I do when I get home is I-

    6. JR

      That's hilarious.

    7. DL

      ... the most normal...

    8. JR

      You do normal shit-

    9. DL

      Yes.

    10. JR

      ... to pretend you're normal.

    11. DL

      Yes.

    12. JR

      Like some people pretend they're rock stars.

    13. DL

      Yes, yes.

    14. JR

      (laughs)

    15. DL

      I go and pretend I'm normal. (laughs)

    16. JR

      That's hilarious.

    17. DL

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      God, that's, that's, that's so real, though. I mean, that's your reality, right?

    19. DL

      Right.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. DL

      Right. (laughs)

  3. 3:30 – 6:38

    Starting at 7 years old: Barney, being an “old soul,” and preferring adults

    1. JR

      God. When did you... What, what was the first showbiz thing you did? How old were you?

    2. DL

      So I auditioned for Barney and Friends when I was seven.

    3. JR

      Whoa.

    4. DL

      And I... Well, actually, I auditioned when I was five, and I didn't make it because I couldn't read yet. So my mom was drawing pictures by each line, and that's how I memorized my lines.

    5. JR

      Wow.

    6. DL

      Um, but they caught onto that, and they didn't cast me until I was seven or eight, so... And then I did that.

    7. JR

      So you were eight years old doing Barney Yes. Wow.

    8. DL

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      So I probably saw you on TV. My kid loved Bar... My, my, my middle daughter has this weird thing that she used to do when she was younger. Like, she renames people.

    10. DL

      (laughs)

    11. JR

      She decides she doesn't like your name, she, she gives you a whole 'nother name.

    12. DL

      Cute.

    13. JR

      Yeah, she's, she's very headstrong.

    14. DL

      I hope she hates my name.

    15. JR

      No, no, no. (laughs)

    16. DL

      I wanna have a new name from her.

    17. JR

      No, she actually kinda... Like, normally they ask who's on the podcast just, like, to be polite.

    18. DL

      Oh.

    19. JR

      And I, I go, "It's Demi Lovato." She goes, "What the f-"

    20. DL

      (laughs)

    21. JR

      Like, she almost said, "What the fuck?" She goes, "The, the, the same one? That one?"

    22. DL

      Cute. Cute.

    23. JR

      She's like, "Seriously?"

    24. DL

      Oh my gosh.

    25. JR

      'Cause she's, she's 12, almost 13.

    26. DL

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      She's kinda becoming a young girl, talks really fast, says, like, a million different things not-

    28. DL

      (laughs) Cute.

    29. JR

      "What? What are you saying? What? What? Who?"

    30. DL

      I love that, yes.

  4. 6:38 – 11:17

    The moment fame became real: screams in public and concerts scaling overnight

    1. JR

      When did you start realizing you were famous?

    2. DL

      So it w- ... There was just one day where I went to go visit my friend. He was doing an autograph signing. He used to be on Hannah Montana, and this was in Dallas. And he came out to Dallas to do this autograph signing. And I just, like, went to show support and see my friend that's been in LA for a while. And somebody there heard or saw me, and she just screamed. And I was like, "Oh my God, what's happening?" And-

    3. JR

      How old were you then?

    4. DL

      14. No, 15, 15.

    5. JR

      Wow.

    6. DL

      I was 15 and all of a sudden she screams and I, like, look over and she's looking at me and (laughs) I'm like, "Oh God, what's, what's up?"

    7. JR

      "Am I on fire?" (laughs)

    8. DL

      Yeah. "What's happening?"

    9. JR

      (laughs)

    10. DL

      And then she got excited and I realized what was happening and I remember, like, running to my mom being like, "Did you hear that scream? That was for me."

    11. JR

      (laughs)

    12. DL

      And I don't know what's happening. (laughs) So it was cool.

    13. JR

      Did your mom try to explain it to you?

    14. DL

      (laughs) No. I was 15. (laughs) Like, I knew, I knew what was happening, but-

    15. JR

      "Honey, this is how it goes."

    16. DL

      (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was just like, "Your life's about to change." 'Cause at this point, um, I had been casted in Camp Rock, and the thing about Disney back then was the Disney fan base was so ... They were the web sleuths, uh, before web sleuths were, like ... Like, they, they knew everything about me before the movie had even come out.

    17. JR

      They were super fans.

    18. DL

      They were super fans. And so they had done their research and they, they knew what I looked like and-

    19. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    20. DL

      ... I don't know, they just screamed. (laughs)

    21. JR

      Did you, uh ... Do you feel like that was, like, a shift in the way you thought about show business when you, when you realized that you were now someone that if people saw you they would scream? Did it become a different thing to you?

    22. DL

      It definitely ... I was like, "Okay, this is new." Um, I, I don't remember feeling like, like having a conscious thought of like, "This is what it's gonna be like. Wow, this is crazy." It was just kind of like, "That's so weird. Why did someone scream over me?"

    23. JR

      Mm.

    24. DL

      You know? And then, and at, at concerts it makes sense, you know, when like, you're singing and that's what people do at concerts. They scream. But I think like, in a, in the lobby of a hotel in Texas-

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. DL

      ... it's just a little alarming. (laughs) So ...

    27. JR

      When, when was the first time you did a concert?

    28. DL

      Um, I've ... I mean, I did performances, um, growing up. So like, I performed, I did like this military base tour when I was like 12 and I promoted this DVD that I was on that had a music video on it. It was like this workout ... I don't know. It's a long story. But I went to military bases and I did some performances, but I think my first actual, like, concert of my own was that summer I was 15 and I w- it was at Hersheypark in Pennsylvania, and it was an amusement park. And 200 people showed up, tops. And a month later, after that, Camp Rock had come out and I was opening for the Jonas Brothers on their tour.

    29. JR

      (mimics explosion)

    30. DL

      And that was 18,000 people.

  5. 11:17 – 16:10

    Bullying, cyberbullying, and the eating-disorder catalyst

    1. DL

      So, I grew up in Texas, Dallas, Texas. Um, I, I keep forgetting we're in Texas.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. DL

      So Dallas, um, but I, I grew up, you know ... I went to public school except for the one year that I homeschooled on Barney and Friends, and I experienced, um, bullying pretty bad while I was there, and so I ended up leaving public school. And I went into a really depressive state for a period of time. I didn't ... You know, when you're 12 and you're bullied, that's your social life. Like, your social life is everything to you, and so, um, I felt like I didn't have much to look forward to anymore except for my music, and music kinda kept me alive, so it's not that, like, I ever looked at the industry as, um-... this, this kind of weird burden on my teenage years or whatever. Like, yes, it- it- it is weird in hindsight, but I looked at it as it actually kind of saved my life, um, at times, because it gave me something to live for, and I knew that if I stayed in Texas, that, um, I wouldn't make it out alive.

    4. JR

      The bullying was that bad?

    5. DL

      Yeah, the bullying was that bad, but also-

    6. JR

      And this is, they knew you had been on television already?

    7. DL

      Yeah.

    8. JR

      So, was that part of the reason why they were bullying you?

    9. DL

      So, when I asked them, like, "Why are you guys..." So, it all started with, like, I wrote a note. You know, you're in sixth, seventh grade, you're passing notes back and forth. And I called someone, this other girl, like, called her annoying and said she was being a bitch, right? And then that escalated to, by the end of the day, I- it was that, like, scene in the movie where you walk in the lunchroom and everyone just looks at you. 'Cause the- the thing was, is like, the girls that I wrote that about were the popular girls, and so it just, like, anyone who wanted to be popular took their side.

    10. JR

      Mm.

    11. DL

      And everyone just was like... I don't know. So, I had a concert that weekend on a military base, and I went to ve- like, Vegas for the- the concert or something. And when I came back, it just had increased, and so when I asked them, like, "Why are you guys doing this? I wrote a note." We all write notes in school. We're in seventh grade, that's what we do. And they were just like, "Well, you're a whore, and you're fat," and so I internalized what they were saying, and that's when my eating disorder developed. And I couldn't, I mean, I wasn't a whore. Um...

    12. JR

      I believe you. (laughs)

    13. DL

      Yeah. (laughs)

    14. JR

      It's- it is so crazy-

    15. DL

      So.

    16. JR

      ... how children have this instinct to pile onto people like that, though. It's, bullying is, it's more common than not, right?

    17. DL

      Well, and you have to understand, is my generation was like, the first with social media.

    18. JR

      Mm.

    19. DL

      So, what I was really, um, dealing with was the cyberbullying of everything. It wasn't... I had wished that someone had tried to fight me, because I'm a fighter, and so I would've thrown down. But they were coming at me with words that scarred me emotionally for years to come, and ended up, you know, scarring me (laughs) for the rest of my life. Um, and I- I kept saying to people who didn't understand cyberbullying, like, "I wish that someone had just hit me and gotten it over with, because at least I wouldn't have to live with those words that they said to me for years."

    20. JR

      Mm.

    21. DL

      And that's what was the hardest part, um, was the emotional trauma of like, of all of it, and which made it hard to meet fans my age, because I had just been bullied three years before by people my age. When I was meeting fans, I was excited to meet them, but at the same time, I knew what they were capable of, so I had this weird, like, battle in my head every time I'd meet someone my age of like, "I'm so appreciative of you, but I'm also terrified of what you're capable of."

    22. JR

      Wow, so you just had a wall up for any young kids that reminded you of the girls who bullied you?

    23. DL

      Mm-hmm, which was my fan base at that time.

    24. JR

      (sighs)

    25. DL

      And so that was always in my mind, and- and I actually never even told anybody that really, because I didn't think it was important. I also felt guilty for feeling that way towards my fans.

    26. JR

      Did you discuss the bullying with anybody at the time?

    27. DL

      Oh, yeah. I di- I discussed it with my mom. She took it... We went, I mean, she came to the school and tried to tell them what was happening, and they were like, "If it's cyberbullying, we can't do anything about it. It didn't happen on school grounds," so no punishment really took place. And I mean they had a suicide petition that they passed around the school and tried to get people to sign it so that I would kill my-

    28. JR

      (laughs)

    29. DL

      Like, it's- it gets gnarly. And- and girls can be mean.

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  6. 16:10 – 20:51

    Making amends with a bully—and the strange ways people dehumanize celebrities

    1. DL

      Middle school girls can be mean. And so I talked about it a lot, and then I decided, that was really my first taste of activism work, was being an advocate for anti-bullying. And I remember I like, decided to start talking about it, and I felt like, I felt some purpose. And all of a sudden, my career wasn't about my talent anymore.

    2. JR

      Have you ever run into those girls?

    3. DL

      So...

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. DL

      I haven't run into them, but I did make a phone call to like, the main girl that bullied me, because when I got sober, a part of the program they teach you to on your ninth step is you make amends. And when you do, your resentments, um... Er, you- you make a- a list of resentments. You write down everyone you've had a resentment against your entire life. At least, this is the way I was brought through the steps. And s- her name was on it, and when they had me go through what was my part, and I was like, "Well, I put the name down that she was a bitch, so like, I guess I did play a part in that." And when I looked at everything, I was like, "You know, I can't look back at that situation and- and say that I was innocent." So I went to own my part, but a part of the step was calling and making amends. And so I called her, and she was like, "Oh my gosh, I can't even believe you remember who I am." And I was like, "Bitch, you ruined my life." (laughs)

    6. JR

      (laughs)

    7. DL

      Like, what? You f- are you fucking kidding me? Like... (laughs)

    8. JR

      (laughs)

    9. DL

      And I was so like, I- I just like sat there and was like, "Cool, I think this concludes the end of this phone call. Uh, I'm sorry, and wish you well." (laughs) And that was it.

    10. JR

      But was she... Did you get past that? Did you talk to her? Like...

    11. DL

      She was so thrown off that I even remembered who she was after becoming famous and a celebrity that like, she wasn't interested in talking about what had happened when I was 12, or when we were 12.

    12. JR

      What did she wanna talk about? Like, what's it like to be you?

    13. DL

      Like, "How are you?" Like, "Oh my God, I miss you so much."

    14. JR

      Ew. (laughs)

    15. DL

      "I hope you're well." And I was just like... (sighs) (laughs)

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. DL

      Like... (laughs) God grant me the serenity-

    18. JR

      (laughs)

    19. DL

      ... to accept the things I cannot change. (laughs) You know?

    20. JR

      Isn't it... It's so strange, people that are not famous, for some reason, they think that people who are famous are not people.

    21. DL

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      You become a famous person. You're not a person. It's like you have, like, a shield around you.

    23. DL

      Yes.

    24. JR

      You, you, you, like, all your emotional scars are all of your past-

    25. DL

      (laughs) Right.

    26. JR

      ... you know, but still, for some reason, that doesn't, doesn't affect you.

    27. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    28. JR

      You're in a, in a castle somewhere.

    29. DL

      (laughs)

    30. JR

      Covered in gold, right?

  7. 20:51 – 29:07

    Celebrities, politics, and the pressure to “use your platform” responsibly

    1. DL

      And, and a lot of people still think that about celebrities. Like-

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. DL

      ... a common thing that I hear all the time is like, "I hate it when celebrities talk about politics." And it's like, "Are we not a citizen of the same country?"

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. DL

      Because if you have a right to talk about politics, I do too. I mean-

    6. JR

      I think what people have a problem with is when celebrities tell people what to do-

    7. DL

      Yes.

    8. JR

      ... 'cause people will listen. That, I have a problem with that too.

    9. DL

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      And I do it, and I tell people what to do. (laughs)

    11. DL

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      And I'm like, "D- don't listen to me. I'm a fucking idiot."

    13. DL

      Yeah. (laughs)

    14. JR

      But I think that that is a thing where when people, regular folks hear someone who's maybe an actor talking about, you know, how he wants to vote for Joe Biden, and you're like, "Hey, man, just shut the fuck up. Just go, go be Captain America or whatever you do." Not Captain Ame- That guy's great. I just-

    15. DL

      (laughs)

    16. JR

      I don't know why I said that.

    17. DL

      (laughs)

    18. JR

      But you know what I mean? Go, go be some, whatever you are in some television show or some movie. Don't, don't lecture folks about politics when you probably barely know what you're talking about, and you're only doing it to suck up to the liberal people in Hollywood that you think they're gonna give you movie roles.

    19. DL

      But in the defense of that, I will say that, like, pretty much everyone in Hollywood, I guess, is... Pretty much everyone is a liberal. Like-

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. DL

      ... by saying you're a liberal is not gonna help you get a role in a movie.

    22. JR

      It does help though. It helps reaffirm 'cause there's a few people that aren't liberals, like Chris Pratt-

    23. DL

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      ... and he has to keep his mouth shut. He has to, like-

    25. DL

      I see.

    26. JR

      ... be real careful. Like, if he's, like, people were going after him online for, like, nothing one day. I forget what it was. But it's just, like, they don't like him because he's Christian. Like, literally.

    27. DL

      Hmm.

    28. JR

      Like, I've seen people say, "I don't trust him. He's a creepy Christian." He's-

    29. DL

      That's so terrible.

    30. JR

      ... the nicest guy on Earth.

  8. 29:07 – 35:17

    Meditation retreats, “healers,” and the skepticism vs. intuition debate

    1. JR

      ... and you think about these things all the time. So, when- like when you said you went on that meditation trip-

    2. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      ... like what are you trying to do when you're doing these things?

    4. DL

      I went... (laughs) You're gonna laugh. I went the week of the election (laughs) because I was like-

    5. JR

      It's a good move.

    6. DL

      Yeah. I was like, "I don't need to be here-"

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. DL

      "... regardless of what happens." Like, "I just don't need to be in this country-"

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. DL

      "... this week." So, I went to Mexico, and I went on this meditation retreat. And, um, basically, I met with my healers, like I have a few healers. One of my healers took me down there and introduced me to other healers there. Um-

    11. JR

      When you say you have a healer...

    12. DL

      Yeah, she's- she's... I- I call her my healer. She's super intuitive, psychic if you will. Um, it's... she... and- and then she helps me, um-

    13. JR

      Get rid of money?

    14. DL

      No, no.

    15. JR

      (laughs)

    16. DL

      No. She actually... she helps me like get rid of negative energy and teaches me all the things, and yeah.

    17. JR

      What is her background?

    18. DL

      Her background-

    19. JR

      Yeah.

    20. DL

      ... is, well, she... her- her background isn't s- like in this stuff.

    21. JR

      Is she an accountant? (laughs)

    22. DL

      No, no, no, she's not an accountant. Um, but she... yeah.

    23. JR

      How does- how does one find a healer? Like how do you get in contact with a healer?

    24. DL

      It was like you... uh, a friend of a friend.

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DL

      Um, I actually was...... not doing so well on a trip to Bali. And, uh, my security guard knew her and invited her along. And when I was there sh- we worked together and she told me things that nobody knew. And so-

    27. JR

      Like what?

    28. DL

      She knew what, um... (sighs) She knew that I was into some, some heavy stuff. Um, this was at the time that I had started using hard drugs, hard, hard drugs. And, uh-

    29. JR

      And nobody else knew that?

    30. DL

      Um...

  9. 35:17 – 47:01

    Manifestation: separating magical thinking from discipline, luck, and honest self-assessment

    1. DL

      Do you believe in manifestation?

    2. JR

      Um, in... Meaning do you make things happen?

    3. DL

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Like The Secret, that kind of shit?

    5. DL

      I guess. I didn't read that book.

    6. JR

      Um, all that stuff, like the law of attraction, here's the problem with it. They only talk to the people who are successful.

    7. DL

      Mm.

    8. JR

      So you have, uh, a positive user bias, right? So like, the people that are successful, like, "Hey Bob, how did you become, like, this big rock star?"

    9. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    10. JR

      And he'll say, "Listen, man, I dreamt it. I put the pictures on my wall. I practiced every night. I listened to Hendrix."

    11. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    12. JR

      "I played music. I, I lip synced. I did everything, man. I lived it. I wanted it so bad and I made it happen."

    13. DL

      Mm.

    14. JR

      But what about that guy that's, you know, working at the fucking Chuck E. Cheese right now who also had the same dreams, who also had the pictures on his wall-

    15. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    16. JR

      ... who also li- lip synced to songs and wanted to be in a band so bad and it never happened?

    17. DL

      Mm.

    18. JR

      Like, I think for everyone who becomes successful at anything, you obsess on that thing, you think about that thing all the time. And when, when you do make it and they interview you, everyone wants to pretend there's some sort of magic involved in what they've created and what they've done. I think there's...... definitely luck. There's definitely moments where the stars align. There's good fortune. There's raw talent. There's people that have personalities that are suited to whatever endeavor they pursue, whether that's athletics, or whether it's art, whether it's literature. Whatever it is that you excel at, you can decide that it was manifest, that you, you, your mind created it, that you were, you were destined to do this and you're destined to help th- the world and change the w-... But I think we attach meaning to things to try to find order in chaos. And I think that if you just had a, a, a grand, if you had a, an enormous sample group of all the people that wanted the same things that you have, or all the people that wanted the same things that... You know, pick a per-... Chris Rock. All the people that wanna be a Chris Rock. How many of them actually make it? How many of them w-... who have those dreams actually make it? There's a lot involved. It's not ju-... This idea of manifest, the problem is it leaves out discipline. It leaves out focus-

    19. DL

      Hmm.

    20. JR

      ... drive, passion. It leaves out objective thinking, the introspective thinking, where you look at yourself and, and look at yourself honestly. Like, "What am I doing well? And what am I sucking at? And where am I failing? And how do I correct and how do I make better?" That's how you get better at everything.

    21. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      And some people don't do that. So this idea of, like, manifesting things, it is a part of-

    23. DL

      Yes.

    24. JR

      ... an enormous thing.

    25. DL

      1000%. That's exactly what I was gonna chime in and say, is I don't think that it's... It's not the end all, be all. I wouldn't have gotten to the position that I'm in today had I not driven hours to auditions.

    26. JR

      100%.

    27. DL

      And did the thing.

    28. JR

      And had talent.

    29. DL

      And had talent. Like, I-

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  10. 47:01 – 51:37

    Jiu-jitsu as meditation, empowerment, and a fame ‘humbler’

    1. JR

      Would choke her. But... Yeah, you're into jujitsu. I remember that-

    2. DL

      I do.

    3. JR

      I remember I ran into you at the UFC. It was a couple of years ago, and you were, you were, like, really into jujitsu. Like, you train hard.

    4. DL

      I was super, super into it until COVID hit. And then when COVID hit, I just-

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. DL

      ... I got really, really nervous 'cause I have asthma and-

    7. JR

      Oh.

    8. DL

      ... autoimmune shit.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. DL

      So, um, I just, I, I got really nervous about training so close-

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DL

      ... with anybody that I took a break-

    13. JR

      Sure.

    14. DL

      ... from it, but I'm, I'm anxious to get back. I want... I can't wait to train.

    15. JR

      (clicks tongue) It's a good humbler. That's a good thing to keep you balanced, you know?

    16. DL

      It's the, it's the best thing-

    17. JR

      Yeah.

    18. DL

      ... I found for... I mean, outside of meditation for me. And it's two totally different things, but...

    19. JR

      It's kinda different, but not.

    20. DL

      But yeah, you're right.

    21. JR

      Yeah.

    22. DL

      And-

    23. JR

      This... Jujitsu people are some of the calmest people I've ever met in my life.

    24. DL

      Totally.

    25. JR

      They're all chill.

    26. DL

      Totally.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. DL

      Especially when they get into, like, flow rolling.

    29. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. DL

      Like, that is meditative. That is meditation.

  11. 51:37 – 54:52

    Tour life realities: extreme schedules, voice recovery, and learning sustainability

    1. JR

      When you were touring, how often were you on the road?

    2. DL

      Well, in the beginning of my career, it was nuts. Um, there was a time... That, that summer that I had my first show in and Camp Rock released, uh... By the end of s- I guess 90 days, I had done 70 concerts, 70 shows, 70 performances-

    3. JR

      Holy shit.

    4. DL

      ... in, in 90 days. And-

    5. JR

      That's crazy. How did your voice hold up?

    6. DL

      It didn't. It didn't always hold up. Um, and I learned from that in the beginning. Um, I think my manager at the time had managed the Jonas Brothers and didn't realize when he took on me as, like, a solo artist that I would need more time to recover. Because, you know, when y- when you're, when you're managing three guys, you're not factoring in two hours of hair and makeup, a full show of performance by yourself. You can't rely on your brother if you're tired, you know?

    7. JR

      Right, right.

    8. DL

      There's nobody else but you on stage. And so, um, there was an adjustment period, um, because they were used to working so much, so he just, you know, kinda gave me that schedule. But when I said, "Hey, I can't work like this. This is too much. And my voice needs time to heal."

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. DL

      Um, then I, then I started touring like... I- it went from, like, five shows a week to four to three. So I do, like, three shows a week when I'm on tour, pretty much.

    11. JR

      And do you... Is that, like, what you found is maintainable now? Like, three shows is the way to do it, because do you need, do you have to do, like, one show and then a day off?

    12. DL

      Yes. I normally do that.

    13. JR

      And then just drink tea and not talk to people?

    14. DL

      Mm-hmm. And sleep. Sleeping heals my voice like no other. Um, so hot tea, sleep, water, and then... I, I don't know what works now, to be honest. Because I'm in a different place than I was the last time I toured in 2018. So...

    15. JR

      How so?

    16. DL

      Well, 2018, I went on a, like a North American tour and then a world tour. And in the North American tour, I was sober, um, but bulimic. Then when I went on the world tour, I wasn't sober, um, but I wasn't bulimic anymore. So it was just like... It was... I had different needs at the time, and I think my needs will be very different than three years ago.

    17. JR

      And you have to be really careful to not do permanent damage to your throat, right?

    18. DL

      Of course.

    19. JR

      'Cause vocal cords, for, for singers that push it too hard and where... They get polyps and all kinds of weird things.

    20. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JR

      You have to have surgery.

    22. DL

      Mm-hmm. Nodes, yeah.

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    25. JR

      Yeah. It can get rough, right?

    26. DL

      Yeah. It can get rough. Um, but fortunately I've only, knock on wood, had negative, uh, like, implications with my voice after being sick. That's, like, the only time that I've had to cancel a show or anything like that, so...

    27. JR

      Well, the lemon probably helps.

    28. DL

      I... (laughs) Yeah.

    29. JR

      There's something about, like, lemon in hot water that's always good when I have a fucked up voice.

    30. DL

      Yeah.

  12. 54:52 – 1:10:35

    Early addiction path: coke, Xanax, withdrawal risks, and LA’s drug ecosystem

    1. JR

      So-What was it- what was your drug of choice? Was it, like, uh, were you trying to escape? Was it, like, uh, like, what kind of- what did you start with?

    2. DL

      Hmm. (sighs) Start with when?

    3. JR

      When you first started recognizing that you were using, like, and you were using probably to try to mitigate some of the pressures of fame and all the wildness of your life.

    4. DL

      The first time I ever realized I had a problem was when I was 18, um, and it was coke.

    5. JR

      Coke?

    6. DL

      Yeah.

    7. JR

      And what did coke do for you?

    8. DL

      Um, because I had had an eating disorder, I knew what it could do for me. And, um, so I started-

    9. JR

      Curbs your appetite, keeps you skinny?

    10. DL

      Yeah. Yep.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. DL

      And, um, yeah. And so that was it. And then I, I had start- I got sober for a few months and went out. Um, and the problem was that's when I got addicted to pills and coke together, Xanax. Because I wasn't sleeping from the coke and needed to go to sleep at night, so I would take a Xanax, but then I would stay up, and then I ended up liking the effects of both of them at the same time.

    13. JR

      I used to always think of Xanax as this thing that people did just no big deal. Just, "Oh, you take a Xanax, you relax. Take a Xanax, have a glass of wine, relax."

    14. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JR

      I had no idea how difficult those things were to kick-

    16. DL

      (exhales)

    17. JR

      ... until, well, two things. One, um, my friend Jordan Peterson got off of it, and it took him, like, a year. And he, he was-

    18. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JR

      ... in hell. And then talking to another friend, Hamilton Morris, who is a, a real chemist and really understands, like, the, the actual mechanisms of what these drugs do to your mind and your body and why it's so difficult to get off of them. But benzodiazepine, Xanax and those, those type of drugs, those antidepressants or antianxiety meda- rather, those medications are some of the most difficult drugs to get off of. Way more difficult even, for many people, than heroin.

    20. DL

      Yeah, so in my experience, um, you know, when, when I have withdrawed from heroin, I'm not worried necessarily about, um, what's going to happen to me physically. When, when I have had to come off of Xanax in the past, I've had to talk to a doctor about it, get on a prescription to get off of it. Um, it's just, it's a whole thing, because people don't realize that hero- uh, I don't know if anyone has died of a heroin withdraw, but, uh, it's not typical for people to die with, from heroin withdrawals. It's typically alcohol and benzodiazepines.

    21. JR

      Yeah, those are the two big ones.

    22. DL

      But, yeah, those ones, because without w- without properly withdrawing off of them, you can go into a grand mal seizure.

    23. JR

      Hmm.

    24. DL

      And that's where it gets scary.

    25. JR

      (exhales) That's terrifying.

    26. DL

      Yeah.

    27. JR

      The, the other thing that Hamilton was explaining is that it changes your baseline, that when you get on these things and it does alleviate some of your anxiety, but then when you get off of them, it actually accentuates your anxiety. So your anxiety, whatever you had before, is now elevated. So it becomes more difficult to get off of them because you needed them because you were trying to alleviate your anxiety. Now you get off of them and you're more anxious than you've ever been before.

    28. DL

      Right.

    29. JR

      So it's not, it's not even back to normal.

    30. DL

      Right.

  13. 1:10:35 – 1:22:36

    Exercise vs. escapism—and how diet culture can make workouts feel unsafe

    1. DL

      I think the reason because of that is because of the diet culture that is forced on us 24/7, and especially women.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DL

      Women don't ... I'm not gonna want to go do a hard 90-minute workout at 10:00 PM at night, or whenever, say it's 3:00 in the afternoon, if I'm stressed, because the second I walk into the gym, I'm fo- I'm now seeing thing ... If I'm walking into a regular gym, at Unbreakable they don't have, like, weight loss shit on the walls. But, like, if you walk into a normal gym, if a, if a woman or, or s- anybody has had an eating disorder or deals with the effects of diet culture and has, has dealt with all the shame and, that comes with that, um, that isn't the, the most therapeutic way for, for someone. You know? So it's like, it's, it's ... I think it, it's ... You're right, but for some people, a w- a workout isn't as beneficial because they might deal with the crippling shame and anxiety of the diet culture that's put in our faces every day. You know?

    4. JR

      I s- I understand what you're saying. So when you go to a normal gym, there's, like, weight loss this and lose fat-

    5. DL

      Yes.

    6. JR

      ... and fat burner this, and-

    7. DL

      Or there's just mirrors everywhere.

    8. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DL

      Like, Unbreakable doesn't have mirrors, which is why I really found comfort in, in, like, working out there, 'cause I didn't, I wasn't catching the corner of my eye, thinking, "Oh, I need to work on this," or, "I need to strengthen this."

    10. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DL

      You know? It's not about that. It's about making myself feel better, which is what you were talking about.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DL

      But I think when, like, it's easy l- people can get easily distracted, and it becomes more stressful for them to step foot in those environments than it is to maybe go on a walk.

    14. JR

      Right. I know what you're saying. Yeah. Well, that's the beautiful thing about exercise videos, that you can just-

    15. DL

      True.

    16. JR

      ... watch someone do a video.

    17. DL

      Mm-hmm.

    18. JR

      Or, or if you have, like, a really good coach or a, you know, a trainer that can come over and put you through a video where you don't have to stare at some weight loss advertisement or-

    19. DL

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      But I, I can understand how that would be, especially if this is something that you've battled over and over again. You know, it's like being an alcoholic and going to a bar.

    21. DL

      Right.

    22. JR

      Right?

    23. DL

      Right. It's exactly like that. And so, I appreciate you being able to see that. Um, and I think for me, like, when I really wanna get in a good workout, now, like, because of COVID, um, it used to be jujitsu, but, you know, now it's going on a hike, um, or it's getting outside, being outdoors, anything like that.

    24. JR

      I love-

    25. DL

      I love snowboarding, so-

    26. JR

      You living in California?

    27. DL

      Yeah.

    28. JR

      One of the best things about California is there's so many hills.

    29. DL

      Yeah, exactly.

    30. JR

      You can hike.

Episode duration: 2:29:15

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