Joe Rogan Experience #1664 - Josh Dubin

1. 0:00 – 3:35

   Settling in at the new studio + a detour into golf culture and insecurity

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Joshua, good to see you.

   3. NANarrator0:16

      Good to see you, my bro.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      (laughs) What's happenin'?

   5. NANarrator0:19

      I'm, uh, I'm just in awe. I love the, the new digs, man. I'm-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Thank you.

   7. NANarrator0:23

      ... super happy for you, congratulation-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      It's come together when, if you were here six months ago, it looked pretty shitty.

   9. NANarrator0:28

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       But, uh, Matt Alvarez has kicked some ass. So let's, let's continue this conversation-

   11. NANarrator0:32

       Oh, okay.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       ... 'cause you, you are, you guys were just talking about golf.

   13. NANarrator0:35

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       And you were talking about how you don't want to hate golf, but you enjoy it.

   15. NANarrator0:40

       Yeah, 'cause everybody, it's like an inevitability, which happens, it's happened the one or two times I've played this year, if I hole 12 out of 18, you're like, "I wanna get the fuck outta here. I suck."

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       (laughs) Oh.

   17. NANarrator0:49

       "I'm tired of sucking."

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       That's what it is.

   19. NANarrator0:51

       Let's end this suck.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Have you hired someone to coach you?

   21. NANarrator0:53

       No, no, no, no, I don't wanna get that far yet. That's like, I feel like you're too, you're, you can't come back.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       But wouldn't that-

   23. NANarrator0:59

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       I would imagine that it's like anything else, like if you don't get a coach, then you learn bad habits, and those are hard to break.

   25. NANarrator1:07

       Yes, but I am breaking bad habits I had started with from, like, my whole life of everyone trying to say, like in the four or five times you play, "You're doing this wrong. Keep your head down. We'll watch the ball for you." All that kinda shit.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Oh.

   27. NANarrator1:19

       I just started swinging the, swinging the club however I wanted to, and the ball was going straight and far. And I was like, "That's the goal of golf, right?" Straight, far. Or at least you know where-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:27

       Do you-

   29. NANarrator1:27

       ... at least you know it's going.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       They were all talking shit about you the other day at barbecue.
2. 3:35 – 1:11:51

   Simulators, practice volume, and why golf feels uniquely addictive

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:35

      It goes across the top of the, the ceiling. Yeah, uh, those games, any game like that, the problem with golf for me is that once you're committed, you're on this course. You gotta go walk around. It's a long-ass place to go. It'll take you hours.

   2. NANarrator3:49

      That... I have upped that, though.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:51

      You've upped that?

   4. NANarrator3:52

      I get a simulator, you don't have to go anywhere. You stay still.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:55

      Okay, so you have a simulator in your house?

   6. NANarrator3:57

      Yeah, but you don't, you can't putt, so that's like half... But that's half the fucking game, so...

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:00

      Right. But is it helping your, those long straight shots?

   8. NANarrator4:03

      I've just started. Yeah, I ju- so yeah, you need to practice a lot. I need to get thousands of strokes done so I can figure out what I'm doing. And there's only one way to do that. You have to swing hard and do it, you can't like hit foam balls.

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:16

      Right. And so you have it set up in your house where you can swing full blast-

   10. NANarrator4:20

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:20

       ... and then whack, that's pretty dope.

   12. NANarrator4:21

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:22

       There's not a lot of things like that where you can simulate in your house that usually you do outside.

   14. NANarrator4:26

       It's pretty fun.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:27

       You, you, you look skeptical.

   16. NANarrator4:28

       See, it seems like, seems like a bit of a cop out. If you're gonna get in there, you gotta get in there.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       But wait a minute, it's like-

   18. NANarrator4:33

       Well, our rain, it's been raining all month here too. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:34

       But it's also like if you wanna do numbers, like you can't just whack ball unless you go to one of those Topgolf places.

   20. NANarrator4:40

       Yeah, and I, and we work all day, so like at night-

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:42

       Yeah.

   22. NANarrator4:43

       ... I can get in 200 strokes. At least I know where it's going.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:46

       Listen, again, this is driven by my-

   24. NANarrator4:49

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:49

       ... insecurity. (laughs) I think it's probably a great thing to have a simulator. (laughs)

   26. NANarrator4:53

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan4:53

       Yeah. It's, I know how I am with games. And I know that golf seems to me, from the outside in, looking like one of the most addictive games ever.

   28. NANarrator5:02

       Well-

   29. JRJoe Rogan5:02

       It seems super addictive.

   30. NANarrator5:03

       ... I, you know, and now that I think about it, I forget which Malcolm Gladwell book it was, whether it was Blink or Outliers, and I, I do ascribe to the 10,000 hour rule, that if you're gonna get good, it seems like a way to get good.
3. 7:49 – 11:23

   Lomachenko vs Lopez: size, pressure, ring IQ, and what ‘power’ really means

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:49

      What did you think of his fight with Lopez?

   2. JDJosh Dubin7:53

      I thought that there was something off about him. I remember you and I spoke about it before the fight, and it seemed like his slow starts might catch up to him.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:04

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JDJosh Dubin8:04

      And it seemed like that happened there.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:06

      W-

   6. JDJosh Dubin8:06

      I mean, I, I just think he's a mesmerizing athlete, and I, I feel like he always gets started four or five rounds too late.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:13

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JDJosh Dubin8:13

      Um, and I think Lopez had this weird, sort of awkward smothering, you know, in and out, cat and mouse style. Look, people could say what they want about Lopez. He's quick, he's accurate, he's a little awkward. Um, so I was disappointed because I think Lomachenko and his dad are good guys and great athletes, and they sort of... They broke the paradigm of how you're supposed to ascend to a championship, and they got there quick.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:40

      Mm-hmm. Well, I think he's too small for Lopez. Lopez is a monster. That motherfucker hits so hard. There's so much danger in getting close to him, you know? And Lopez is constantly pressuring, and he's got incredible endurance for a heavy hitter. Like, a lot of guys who hit real hard like he does, like he be- basically doesn't throw anything half speed.

   10. JDJosh Dubin8:58

       Yeah, no. You know, I saw him in the gym, uh, when a guy that James Prince and I manage, of course, Stevenson was in his, you know, third or fourth fight. And, and for a guy that hits as hard as he does, he d- he's very, um... It may not seem so when you see it, but he doesn't expend a ton of energy in getting off a big power shot.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:20

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JDJosh Dubin9:21

       And I was like, "Wow, this guy, he's, he's technical in a way that is not... doesn't seem intuitive because you're looking for the, the sort of hallmarks of a technical puncher." He doesn't seem that way, but boy does he hit for his size, wow.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:35

       He hits fucking hard, and he knows how to get his knuckles on your chin.

   14. JDJosh Dubin9:38

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       He's got ring intelligence, you know?

   16. JDJosh Dubin9:40

       He's got that torque to his punch...

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:42

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   18. JDJosh Dubin9:42

       ... which you can't teach.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:43

       Well, he's got... He definitely has natural power, right? And you know better than anybody that you either have that or you don't, and he's got it. He's got it, but what's unusual with him is he also has volume, you know? He doesn't fade, and he... Like, he won the 12th round, which is like Lomachenko came back and was winning the 11th, right?

   20. JDJosh Dubin9:59

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:59

       That was when he was making his big push, but then Lopez came back and won the 12th. And he wins it with power because it's so dangerous getting close to him. I mean, he's obviously got great skill as a boxer, but his style is such a assaulting power style. He's just always pressuring, always pressuring, always throwing big shots. It's just the, the, the consequences of getting too close to him are so dangerous.

   22. JDJosh Dubin10:21

       Well, you know, you, you put, you put your finger on something that I think is important. Um, that, that p- even people in boxing or in MMA, any combat sport, you know it when you see it. You look at Golovkin, for instance.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:32

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JDJosh Dubin10:34

       If you see him, and you see him next to other people in his division and, and you didn't know anything about the sport, and you said, "That guy is the biggest puncher in his prime," people would be like, "Come on. The kid with the nice haircut and not overwhelming looking."

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:47

       Big drama show. (laughs)

   26. JDJosh Dubin10:49

       Big drama show. Listen, there's something about the way the fucking guy punches.

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:52

       Yeah.

   28. JDJosh Dubin10:53

       The torque on his punch. He knows how to put everything together just right...

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:57

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JDJosh Dubin10:58

       With the, with the right kind of torque and, and the way he turns his knuckles over.
4. 11:23 – 12:36

   Aging legends, suspicion, and comebacks: Golovkin, Holmes, and Foreman

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:23

      He looks good. He looks good in a way that makes me suspicious.

   2. JDJosh Dubin11:28

      Well, you have-

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:28

      Because he's a little older.

   4. JDJosh Dubin11:29

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:29

      You know what I'm saying?

   6. JDJosh Dubin11:30

      You have reason to be suspicious-

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:31

      I'm like, hmm.

   8. JDJosh Dubin11:31

      ... with these guys that get, that get more endurance and stronger.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:34

      138. (laughs)

   10. JDJosh Dubin11:35

       No. It's not... Mama Nature... (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:38

       Yeah, well-

   12. JDJosh Dubin11:39

       She doesn't ordain it that way.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:40

       Back in the day, remember when Larry Holmes came back to fight Mike Tyson? People don't realize that. I think he was only 36. Well-

   14. JDJosh Dubin11:46

       That, that felt much older back then, didn't it?

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:48

       I know. Isn't that crazy? Like, 36 back then was fucking old.

   16. JDJosh Dubin11:50

       Even when George Foreman came back-

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:52

       Right.

   18. JDJosh Dubin11:53

       ... and knocked out Michael Moorer.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:54

       Crazy.

   20. JDJosh Dubin11:54

       I remem- I remember looking at him being like, "How's this old man doing it?"

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:57

       I know.

   22. JDJosh Dubin11:57

       But he was, like, in his early 40s.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:59

       I know. Well, he was 45, right?

   24. JDJosh Dubin12:01

       Was he that old?

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:01

       I think he was 45 because I think that was the oldest a person has won the heavyweight title.

   26. JDJosh Dubin12:06

       He looked-... every bit of 45, too. He was just-

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:09

       Well, he was so thick.

   28. JDJosh Dubin12:10

       He would walk forward-

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:11

       Yeah.

   30. JDJosh Dubin12:11

       ... and put those hands up like this or like this. (laughs)
5. 12:36 – 17:28

   Foreman vs Cooney film study: defense, body work, and the cost of punching power

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:36

      His w- his career is so interesting. Takes 10 years off, becomes a priest, right? And he's a preacher. And then comes back. When he comes back, he's like 330 or something like that. Way overweight, big, fat. Everybody's making a joke out of it. Like, "LOL, look at George Foreman mounting a comeback." And then you keep seeing him winning. And then he win- and every time he wins, he looks a little s- a little slimmer. Every time he wins, a little s- a little smaller. And then he gets in there with Gerry Cooney and beats the fuck out of him.

   2. JDJosh Dubin13:04

      I mean, that was, that was like if you ever won a show, here's what could happen to you, even at the highest levels of the sport.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:11

      Pull that up.

   4. JDJosh Dubin13:12

      He beat the shit out of-

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:13

      George Foreman versus Gerry Cooney. And that was a time where Cooney was trying to make a comeback, and, uh, people weren't sure whether or not George was ready for top-notch fighters. That was pre-the Tommy Morrison fight, right?

   6. JDJosh Dubin13:26

      Yes.

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:27

      Yeah.

   8. JDJosh Dubin13:27

      Uh-huh.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:28

      So, Tommy Morrison was one of the few guys that beat him. He, he figured out how to ... But, but look, George does not look bad there.

   10. JDJosh Dubin13:35

       Yeah. He was slim.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:36

       And this is back when Gerry Cooney was still fucking dangerous.

   12. JDJosh Dubin13:38

       You see, you see that-

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:39

       He was crazy. Left hook.

   14. JDJosh Dubin13:39

       You see that, uh, that try to, that catch-

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:43

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JDJosh Dubin13:43

       ... move he was starting to get down.

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:45

       And this, in this fight, George is looking pretty slim too, you know? Not l- not looking, r- real overweight. But just very skillful. And the power, the George Foreman power is just something to behold.

   18. JDJosh Dubin13:59

       See, like that little left hook?

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:00

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JDJosh Dubin14:01

       Stung Cooney.

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:02

       Oh, yeah.

   22. JDJosh Dubin14:02

       Right at the ear. He knew where to throw it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       Such a interesting style of defense, that style that he uses. It's really interesting, because like you don't see a lot of guys target his body, you know? I mean, it wasn't like a thing that ever got him in trouble. There was not like some guy ... Like, a guy like F- Cooney had a really good left hook, but he wasn't really known for a left hook to the liver. His left hook was mostly up top.

   24. JDJosh Dubin14:24

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan14:24

       He was always a head hunter, especially after the Ken Norton fight. That was like the big fight to put him on the map, right?

   26. JDJosh Dubin14:30

       You know, the one thing that ... I asked George once why he never got attacked to the body more. I know his son, one of the Georges really well. And he was a big fan of Lennox's, and he would always, um, call. Every now and then he'd come to camp. And he said that people were reluctant to attack him to the body because that exposed them too much-

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:52

       Hmm.

   28. JDJosh Dubin14:52

       ... for him to come upstairs, right? 'Cause you gotta lower your hands so much more to go to his body.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:58

       Well, there's ... When you get a guy who's a big puncher, like George Foreman is one of the all-time great punchers, right? A guy who's a big puncher, there's so much consequence to any mistake you make, any time you get close to him. I mean, in the UFC, you saw that with, uh, Francis Ngannou and Stipe Miocic, like when S- when Francis knocked him out to win the title. There's so much, there's so many consequences. Like, you can't fuck up with him, because he hits so hard. Jesus Christ, George is swinging from the fucking bleachers here.

   30. JDJosh Dubin15:26

       Oh, you see how strong, how much stronger he is too?
6. 17:28 – 24:19

   Respecting fighters vs disrespectful sports media culture

   1. JDJosh Dubin17:28

      Talk about reverence. I could never... I don't care if they're 110-pounders, I can never be critical, even in a casual conversation of a fighter. I just can't. They're the ... I don't care what sport it is.

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:41

      You mean, in terms of like their performance and their ability?

   3. JDJosh Dubin17:43

      Yeah, just because-

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:45

      Yeah.

   5. JDJosh Dubin17:45

      ... I just feel like ... And I don't wanna unearth anything, but hearing guys like Stephen A. Smith or Mauro or any of these guys that are like, don't have any experience fighting, period.

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:58

      Yeah.

   7. JDJosh Dubin17:58

      Haven't even fought just like, you know, bullshit amateur tournaments. You try to hold your hands up for three minutes.

   8. JRJoe Rogan18:06

      Yeah.

   9. JDJosh Dubin18:07

      Forget about having to worry about being punched or punching. It's fucking hard. It's hard. And these guys are so brave, and, uh, even being close to it, um, as a manager and- and representing fighters, I will never, ever, ever-... even in private conversation, be like, "He sucks." (laughs) You know?

   10. JRJoe Rogan18:25

       Yeah.

   11. JDJosh Dubin18:25

       They're the, they're, they're fucking great.

   12. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       It's a different thing, right? It's not like a guy who's sucking at golf. Right?

   13. JDJosh Dubin18:30

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan18:30

       A guy sucks at golf, he sucks at golf, right?

   15. JDJosh Dubin18:33

       I feel much more comfortable saying-

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       Yeah.

   17. JDJosh Dubin18:35

       ... "He's got no business on the golf course," than saying, "He's got no business in an octagon or in a bare-knuckle fight or in a boxing ring."

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:44

       As do I, I feel the exact same way. It's, uh, there's more laid out. I- it's like you're laying something on the line when you get into a ring and you're fighting. It's a different thing. You're exposing yourself. You're, you're much more vulnerable, and I feel like they deserve a level of respect. You could say things about their technical proficiency. I don't have any problem with that. But, like, these terms that people like to use with basketball players or baseball players, like, "Oh, he fucking sucks. He's, you know, he should quit. You fuckin' boo." Like, "You're, you know, you, you, you, you get paid to do nothing, you bum." Like, the, that kinda shit they do at, like, baseball games, they scream out at people.

   19. JDJosh Dubin19:19

       I can't take it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan19:20

       But that's, that's-

   21. JDJosh Dubin19:20

       I can't take it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan19:21

       ... doing that to boxing is like... The problem is a lot of these sports guys, and we used to, we, we had a problem with that early on in the UFC, is that you would get these sports guy writers who would try to write about, uh, the athletes, the fighters, in a, this really disrespectful, like, AM sports guy way. You know those AM radio sports guys?

   23. JDJosh Dubin19:41

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:42

       It's, like, all insults. That's all, it's like what they do, uh, with some of them. You know? It's like they have this style of attacking all the different players' work ethics and, you know, they, they got signed for too much, they're not worth it, fucking trade them, get rid of them. They were doing that same thing with fighters and I'm like, "Hey man, this is a different thing." Like, these guys are literally laying their health out there.

   25. JDJosh Dubin20:04

       And did you put your foot down early?

   26. JRJoe Rogan20:05

       Oh, a bunch of times, yeah.

   27. JDJosh Dubin20:06

       Yeah?

   28. JRJoe Rogan20:06

       A bunch of times. I, I had, like, some real, you know, heated, uh, mo- exchanges with some, some people about it. I just didn't, I don't like it. I don't like that way of disrespecting fighters. It just, it drives me nuts, and you, if you let that culture... Like, if you get that, let that get into the sport, it diminishes the, the culture of martial arts. And I think you can make an argument that shit-talking does that too. And I could see that argument. I could see how they would say that, like, that shit-talking and, like, the Conor McGregor-style shit-talking, that that kinda diminishes the culture of martial arts too. But that, in my eyes, is a tactic, 'cause it's, you're, you're fucking with someone's emotions and you're testing a person's mettle. You're testing a person's composure. Like, how are they gonna be able to, be able to handle the emotions of hating someone? Someone gets you to hate them. You know, they say terrible things to you, they m- they mock you, they, they, you know, they, they insult you. And then that fucks with your head, and then when you go to fight, you're very emotional and you leave yourself exposed. Like, that's an old-school Miyamoto Musashi tactic.

   29. JDJosh Dubin21:10

       Well, there's a big difference, isn't there, too? Because, like, I had my, my son, I took him to his first Yankee game where he could actually comprehend what was going on, right? He's nine now. So I had taken him when he was four or five. So he's nine, and there's a guy sitting behind us. He's a college-age kid. And, uh, "Fucking suck, you know. Take him outta the game." And I, and I-

   30. JRJoe Rogan21:32

       (laughs)
7. 24:19 – 35:40

   Wilder’s ‘eraser,’ Fury–Wilder negotiations, and the anatomy of terrifying KOs

   1. JRJoe Rogan24:19

      What do you think about what's going on with Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder? Do you think that Tyson knew that he was going to have to defend against Deontay and that this whole Anthony Joshua thing w- 'cause that's what Joshua thinks, that he knew the whole time that he was, wasn't going to be able to make that fight, and they were just letting them get all hyped up about it, but knew he had to really face Deontay Wilder because of the lawsuit.

   2. JDJosh Dubin24:42

      No, it's 100% not true.

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:43

      Not true?

   4. JDJosh Dubin24:43

      No. There was an arbitration going on, and they were actively trying to, you know, and I know this on firsthand knowledge, they were actively trying to make sure that they, um, he was trying to get out of the third fight. He thought that he had a contractual right not to have to fight that third fight because it had to happen at a certain time. Um, and they arbit- I mean, the arbitration's confidential, but I know what was going on and I know that they were actively trying to make sure that, um, he didn't have to fight that third fight.

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:13

      Mmm. (clicks tongue)

   6. JDJosh Dubin25:14

      So I don't, I don't believe in the conspiracy theory. I think Tyson Fury is, he's, call him whatever you want, but that's a man right there. He'll fight anyone.

   7. JRJoe Rogan25:24

      That's a fact.

   8. JDJosh Dubin25:25

      I mean, he's, if you ever see him live in a gym, I mean, everyone who's watching the sparrings, jaw is on the floor to watch this guy, as big as he is, with back fat (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan25:42

      (laughs)

   10. JDJosh Dubin25:42

       I mean-

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:42

       I do love that he gets fat.

   12. JDJosh Dubin25:44

       That back fat-

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:45

       Yeah.

   14. JDJosh Dubin25:45

       ... is like some stubborn, these, they look like two ham hocks and you see him and you're like, "What the fuck?"

   15. JRJoe Rogan25:52

       That's beer.

   16. JDJosh Dubin25:53

       It's, he moves like a fucking gazelle. He is, there's, I've never seen anything like it. Lennox has watched him and be like, like this, "I can't believe what I'm seeing." He's just remarkably gifted and, you know-

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:09

       Well, he's always moved like that. From the time he was young, he's moved like that. So it's just part of his style.

   18. JDJosh Dubin26:14

       Now he can punch a little bit, though.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:16

       Yeah. Well, now he, he sets down and he moves forward.

   20. JDJosh Dubin26:19

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:20

       Instead of just trying to box and box and box. You know, like, that was the key to the Wilder fight was the 12th round. 12th round of the first fight-

   22. JDJosh Dubin26:26

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:26

       ... we had Wilder on his heels and he realized, "Okay, this is how you fight this guy."

   24. JDJosh Dubin26:30

       Yep.

   25. JRJoe Rogan26:31

       You go after him. Because if you just try to move around, then he can move forward and set his, set his punches in and put his weight behind his punches like he did in that 12th round and dropped him. But then when Tyson got up and then had Deontay backing up, as soon as he had Deontay backing up, it's almost like he was like, "Oh, this is how you fight this guy."

   26. JDJosh Dubin26:49

       Yes. And he can't fight backing up, in my humble opinion. Here I am again, this is my-

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:53

       Yeah.

   28. JDJosh Dubin26:53

       ... humble opinion. With all (laughs) ...

   29. JRJoe Rogan26:55

       He can fight backing up. It's just not his best, it's not his best position to be in. He's got that what Teddy Atlas calls the eraser. You know, like, all mistakes erased with one shot, though.

   30. JDJosh Dubin27:06

       Yeah, and I mean, that's another guy, it might not look as conventional, but I mean, I've s- he puts people, he pulls the plug on their-
8. 35:40 – 44:44

   Celebrity boxing and exhibitions: Mayweather–Logan, Jake Paul, and why ‘spectacle’ sells

   1. JRJoe Rogan35:40

      Well, this is what's going on right now, where a bunch of fighters are upset because Logan Paul and Floyd Mayweather just fought, and Logan Paul made 20 million bucks, and Floyd Mayweather made 100 million bucks, and they're looking at this like, "Hey, what about me? Like, how come I'm not making that kind of money?" And I think what they have to understand is, whether you like it or not, even if you're an elite, the elite of the elite, a Kamaru Usman or a, you know, a p- p- pick any, st- style bender, some of the best fighters in the UFC, even the elite of the elite, the money comes from people wanting to buy your pay-per-view. It's real simple.

   2. JDJosh Dubin36:14

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan36:14

      It shouldn't, maybe. You know, maybe in a, in a perfect world it's the s- most skillful fighter gets the most amount of money. But that's not how it works here.

   4. JDJosh Dubin36:21

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan36:21

      In, in, in the world of combat sports and professional prize fighting, it's all about how many eyes are gonna watch you. And that fucking Logan Paul kid has a lot of eyes on him. He's had a YouTube channel since he was 14 years old, he's been on Disney shows. He's this controversial, larger-than-life, uh, you know, internet celebrity. And people are willing to pay a lot of money to see if he can box with literally one of the greatest fighters that's ever lived in Floyd Mayweather.

   6. JDJosh Dubin36:47

      Hey, look-I'm not mad at it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan36:49

      I'm-

   8. JDJosh Dubin36:49

      I'm not-

   9. JRJoe Rogan36:49

      ... not mad at it, either.

   10. JDJosh Dubin36:50

       Yeah, and you know what? The best fighters in... Some of the best fighters to ever fight, Lennox Lewis, Andre Ward, these guys that I had the honor of representing, ne- you'd never hear out of these elites that they're pissed. (laughs) They're like, "Good for them." Because I think that they get on a fundamental level that as human beings, we unfortunately, we're hardwired to watch the train wreck. We want to see carnage. Um-

   11. JRJoe Rogan37:19

       But we want to see a freak show, too.

   12. JDJosh Dubin37:20

       And we want, and we want... It is a freak show. I mean-

   13. JRJoe Rogan37:22

       That was a freak show.

   14. JDJosh Dubin37:22

       It's a circ- it's a s-

   15. JRJoe Rogan37:23

       I was looking forward to it.

   16. JDJosh Dubin37:24

       It-

   17. JRJoe Rogan37:24

       I really was. I was so excited before the bell rang for the first round.

   18. JDJosh Dubin37:28

       It's like going to the circus, almost. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan37:30

       It's like a dude wrestling a bear.

   20. JDJosh Dubin37:31

       I mean-

   21. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       Like, can he wrestle a bear?

   22. JDJosh Dubin37:33

       It... You know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of when, uh, Rocky fought Hulk Hogan-

   23. JRJoe Rogan37:38

       (laughs)

   24. JDJosh Dubin37:38

       ... in one of the Rocky movies.

   25. JRJoe Rogan37:39

       Well, the thing... The difference though is that Floyd... First of all, you gotta give credit to Floyd Mayweather for doing that because it's so crazy to fight a guy 35 pounds heavier than you. That's so big.

   26. JDJosh Dubin37:49

       He looked like, he, he looked like he was fighting a giant.

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:52

       Yeah.

   28. JDJosh Dubin37:53

       It was like... And, and to watch him... Look, I... People have a lot of opinions about Floyd Mayweather, what he does, how he spends his money. Listen, the guy's brilliant in a lot of ways. He's tapped into something that human beings want-

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:05

       Yeah.

   30. JDJosh Dubin38:05

       ... and want to see. But I was watching him in the fight, the guy outweighs him by 40 pounds, and he's walking to him.
9. 44:44 – 1:15:45

   Andre Ward as the ‘blueprint’ and the moral tension of returning for money

   1. JDJosh Dubin44:44

      Andre Ward.

   2. JRJoe Rogan44:44

      Are you saying Andre Ward?

   3. JDJosh Dubin44:45

      Andre Ward.

   4. JRJoe Rogan44:46

      Well-

   5. JDJosh Dubin44:46

      Even re- 'cause he can't fight, Andre can't fight professionally anymore because he's had-

   6. JRJoe Rogan44:51

      (laughs)

   7. JDJosh Dubin44:51

      ... some physical problems. But Andre's still in shape, he's recently retired, maybe he'll get mad at me-

   8. JRJoe Rogan44:59

      Are you trying to set something up?

   9. JDJosh Dubin45:01

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:01

       Look at you, you're looking away-

   11. JDJosh Dubin45:02

       I know (laughs) .

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:03

       ... you're like the worst poker player ever. He's like, "Well, maybe. Maybe a little bit."

   13. JDJosh Dubin45:06

       Well, well, I just know, I know, I know. Look, that's my brother. I mean, I know that he's, like...

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:13

       Has he thought about it?

   15. JDJosh Dubin45:14

       That, that... He's, he's thought about it.

   16. JRJoe Rogan45:16

       You know-

   17. JDJosh Dubin45:16

       He's thought about it. He, he's thought about it and be, like, "We've talked about it recently, and-"

   18. JRJoe Rogan45:21

       I te- I texted him, uh, after he, uh, announced that he wasn't gonna take the Canelo fight and retire, and I said, "I admire him so much and I admire the way he carries himself so much." And I think it's so valuable for the sport of boxing, 'cause here's a guy who wins an Olympic gold medal, wins two world titles in two different weight classes. He's undefeated. Not only undefeated, but fought the majority of his fight with, o- of his career, rather, with one arm. Retires undefeated, and then says, "You know what? That's it. I'm, I'm... I will best serve boxing as a commentator and as a representative." And that's what he decides to do. And he's so eloquent and so composed and he's such a, a great spokesman for boxing and such a great commentator. Like, I love the fact that he got out with all his marbles, got out with plenty of money, got out with his health. Good.

   19. JDJosh Dubin46:07

       He's, y- you know, here's the thing about Andre too. Uh, when you get to know him, he is... There's a reason why you have respect for him in those ways and others, because you've gotten to know him a little bit. He's, he is a, um, a once-in-a-lifetime streaking comet of a human being. And, and I say that not because of what he accomplished as a fighter, but if you look at his childhood and, you know, uh, his... He's been out there about the fact that his, his mother and father struggled with addictions, um, his father dies suddenly, and he had every reason to go in a completely opposite direction. When you... He is like a brother to me in so many ways, but it's... You know, I'll spend hours on the phone with him just talking about life and existence. And everything that you've said about... He, he's the rare instance of a human being that has pub-... What's projected about him publicly, um, is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of how r- how, um... Yeah. I, I get emotional thinking about him because he's so, he's so important to me as a human being. And if you look at his family, he, he's a guy that m- all his dreams came true, and to one child to the next, his... Everybody that he touches, he has that impact on. He's, and he's, you know, a guy that when he makes mistakes, he'll admit his mistakes. And we're both stubborn and have our ups and downs, but I, I could not be happier to be associated with him. And you're right, a lot of money was put on the table, um, for him to fight Canelo, and we still get, James and I still get asked about it. And he just, he has that sticktoit-ness.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:59

       But why would he be willing to fight Jake Paul, then?

   21. JDJosh Dubin48:02

       Because I think it's... In his mind, it's an exhibition, and I don't think that he, um, looks at it as even a remote threat that it could tarnish his legacy or that he would have to expend too much physically. I think that he probably is sitting back looking at this and like, "You know what? I could now secure not just my children's, but my great-grandchildren's (laughs) futures."

   22. JRJoe Rogan48:29

       (laughs)

   23. JDJosh Dubin48:29

       "And I could..." You know, I think that there's a part of Andre if you know him well, everything that I've set aside, oh, he's got some dog up in him. You heard... If you ever watch his fights, if he gets hit, he, you'll see him, "Now I'm gonna get you four times." You know, he is a mean SOB in the ring. And I think that there's a part of him that sees this and is like, "These guys need to be put in their place, and I could do it pretty easily."

   24. JRJoe Rogan48:56

       But do you think that Jake Paul would be willing to fight a guy like Andre Ward, Olympic gold medalist, multiple-division world champion, undefeated fighter-

   25. JDJosh Dubin49:04

       No.

   26. JRJoe Rogan49:04

       ... who's still young?

   27. JDJosh Dubin49:05

       No.

   28. JRJoe Rogan49:06

       I mean, what, how old is Andre, 35?

   29. JDJosh Dubin49:08

       Yeah, just turned 35.

   30. JRJoe Rogan49:09

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:49:47