Joe Rogan Experience #1664 - Josh Dubin

1. 0:00 – 5:23

   Studio catch-up and why golf is weirdly addictive (and frustrating)

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Joshua, good to see you.

   3. NANarrator0:16

      Good to see you, my bro.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      (laughs) What's happenin'?

   5. NANarrator0:19

      I'm, uh, I'm just in awe. I love the, the new digs, man. I'm-

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:23

      Thank you.

   7. NANarrator0:23

      ... super happy for you, congratulation-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:25

      It's come together when, if you were here six months ago, it looked pretty shitty.

   9. NANarrator0:28

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:28

       But, uh, Matt Alvarez has kicked some ass. So let's, let's continue this conversation-

   11. NANarrator0:32

       Oh, okay.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       ... 'cause you, you are, you guys were just talking about golf.

   13. NANarrator0:35

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       And you were talking about how you don't want to hate golf, but you enjoy it.

   15. NANarrator0:40

       Yeah, 'cause everybody, it's like an inevitability, which happens, it's happened the one or two times I've played this year, if I hole 12 out of 18, you're like, "I wanna get the fuck outta here. I suck."

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:49

       (laughs) Oh.

   17. NANarrator0:49

       "I'm tired of sucking."

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       That's what it is.

   19. NANarrator0:51

       Let's end this suck.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:52

       Have you hired someone to coach you?

   21. NANarrator0:53

       No, no, no, no, I don't wanna get that far yet. That's like, I feel like you're too, you're, you can't come back.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       But wouldn't that-

   23. NANarrator0:59

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       I would imagine that it's like anything else, like if you don't get a coach, then you learn bad habits, and those are hard to break.

   25. NANarrator1:07

       Yes, but I am breaking bad habits I had started with from, like, my whole life of everyone trying to say, like in the four or five times you play, "You're doing this wrong. Keep your head down. We'll watch the ball for you." All that kinda shit.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       Oh.

   27. NANarrator1:19

       I just started swinging the, swinging the club however I wanted to, and the ball was going straight and far. And I was like, "That's the goal of golf, right?" Straight, far. Or at least you know where-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:27

       Do you-

   29. NANarrator1:27

       ... at least you know it's going.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:28

       They were all talking shit about you the other day at barbecue.
2. 5:23 – 7:12

   Is golf a sport? Skills vs. athleticism and a John Daly reality check

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:23

      Yeah. It's a weird one though, right? 'Cause it's a thing where it's the only game that's really connected to business.

   2. NANarrator5:30

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:30

      Right? Tennis isn't necessarily connected to business. Like, you know, 'cause golf, you don't have to be that athletic. I mean, there's a physical movement involved to it, but you don't have to be able to explode side to side like you do with tennis.

   4. NANarrator5:41

      See, and I've, uh, that's where I, I guess you just touched a nerve. I think that that's where my, my, um, aggravation comes from with golf, is I think if you got into this conversation with a golfer, they would chew you alive about, "Oh, really? It's not a sport?" 'Cause I think it's a game. I don't think it's a sport.

   5. JDJosh Dubin5:59

      ... uh-

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:59

      It's a skills game.

   7. JDJosh Dubin6:00

      It's a skills game.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:01

      Yeah. I mean, it's not, uh, not that it's not a, a physical movement that you do, but you don't get exhausted, you know? No one's whacking you, no one's... There's no defense. You know?

   9. JDJosh Dubin6:11

      Yeah. You could have, you could have somebody that is really struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction, be at the top of the game like that guy, John Daley-

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:18

       John Daley, yeah. (laughs)

   11. JDJosh Dubin6:18

       ... was, right? And I don't think that there's any sport where you could say the same thing.

   12. JRJoe Rogan6:22

       That guy said he drinks, how many? 16 Diet Cokes a day?

   13. JDJosh Dubin6:26

       I thought Coors Lights. I don't know about Diet Cokes. (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       (laughs) But he doesn't drink water, he only drinks Diet Coke, and he gets Diet Coke from, uh, McDonald's because they have the best Diet Coke. (laughs)

   15. JDJosh Dubin6:35

       Yeah, they have that petrified ice.

   16. JRJoe Rogan6:38

       Well, they also have, like, the syrup is stronger, I guess. (laughs)

   17. JDJosh Dubin6:40

       Oh my God.

   18. JRJoe Rogan6:41

       Yeah.

   19. JDJosh Dubin6:42

       I think it's awesome. Look, I have, I have extraordinary reverence for people that become skillful at anything. Like, I'll, I'll often look around a room and be like, "How the fuck did people, you know, invent light bulbs-

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:57

       Yeah.

   21. JDJosh Dubin6:57

       ... or microphones, or get great at this game with this little ball?" So I, uh, you know, I'll lay awake tonight regretting the fact that I was-

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:06

       Shitting on golf? (laughs)

   23. JDJosh Dubin7:07

       ... shitting on golf. And there, and there goes my existential, you know, angst.

3. 7:12 – 8:40

   From Dance Dance Revolution to Lomachenko: the anatomy of elite movement

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:12

      I'm kind of with you about all these things. Like, uh, I, I'm impressed when people get good at Dance Dance Revolution. Watch them do those fast footwork movements like...

   2. JDJosh Dubin7:22

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:22

      Like, it seems kind of useless, but, but probably actually for fighters, actually. If you really think about it, like that, the ability to do that kind of footwork-

   4. JDJosh Dubin7:31

      Oh, that's...

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:31

      ... to move the feet that quick, like Lomachenko, right? That's how he really got good with footwork is that Ukrainian dance.

   6. JDJosh Dubin7:37

      I mean, the guy can do things that not just dancing, but, you know, you ever see what he does with a tennis ball tied to his head-

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:44

      Yeah.

   8. JDJosh Dubin7:44

      ... on a string?

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:45

      Yeah.

   10. JDJosh Dubin7:46

       I, I was like, "Well that, that will be good for hand-eye coordination."

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:49

       What did you think of his fight with Lopez?

   12. JDJosh Dubin7:53

       I thought that there was something off about him. I remember you and I spoke about it before the fight, and it seemed like his slow starts might catch up to him.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:04

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JDJosh Dubin8:04

       And it seemed like that happened there.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:06

       W-

   16. JDJosh Dubin8:06

       I mean, I, I just think he's a mesmerizing athlete, and I, I feel like he always gets started four or five rounds too late.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:13

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JDJosh Dubin8:13

       Um, and I think Lopez had this weird, sort of awkward smothering, you know, in and out, cat and mouse style. Look, people could say what they want about Lopez. He's quick, he's accurate, he's a little awkward. Um, so I was disappointed because I think Lomachenko and his dad are good guys and great athletes, and they sort of... They broke the paradigm of how you're supposed to ascend to a championship, and they got there quick.

4. 8:40 – 11:40

   Power you can’t teach: Lopez, Golovkin, and what makes a true puncher

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:40

      Mm-hmm. Well, I think he's too small for Lopez. Lopez is a monster. That motherfucker hits so hard. There's so much danger in getting close to him, you know? And Lopez is constantly pressuring, and he's got incredible endurance for a heavy hitter. Like, a lot of guys who hit real hard like he does, like he be- basically doesn't throw anything half speed.

   2. JDJosh Dubin8:58

      Yeah, no. You know, I saw him in the gym, uh, when a guy that James Prince and I manage, of course, Stevenson was in his, you know, third or fourth fight. And, and for a guy that hits as hard as he does, he d- he's very, um... It may not seem so when you see it, but he doesn't expend a ton of energy in getting off a big power shot.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:20

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JDJosh Dubin9:21

      And I was like, "Wow, this guy, he's, he's technical in a way that is not... doesn't seem intuitive because you're looking for the, the sort of hallmarks of a technical puncher." He doesn't seem that way, but boy does he hit for his size, wow.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:35

      He hits fucking hard, and he knows how to get his knuckles on your chin.

   6. JDJosh Dubin9:38

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:38

      He's got ring intelligence, you know?

   8. JDJosh Dubin9:40

      He's got that torque to his punch...

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:42

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   10. JDJosh Dubin9:42

       ... which you can't teach.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:43

       Well, he's got... He definitely has natural power, right? And you know better than anybody that you either have that or you don't, and he's got it. He's got it, but what's unusual with him is he also has volume, you know? He doesn't fade, and he... Like, he won the 12th round, which is like Lomachenko came back and was winning the 11th, right?

   12. JDJosh Dubin9:59

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:59

       That was when he was making his big push, but then Lopez came back and won the 12th. And he wins it with power because it's so dangerous getting close to him. I mean, he's obviously got great skill as a boxer, but his style is such a assaulting power style. He's just always pressuring, always pressuring, always throwing big shots. It's just the, the, the consequences of getting too close to him are so dangerous.

   14. JDJosh Dubin10:21

       Well, you know, you, you put, you put your finger on something that I think is important. Um, that, that p- even people in boxing or in MMA, any combat sport, you know it when you see it. You look at Golovkin, for instance.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:32

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JDJosh Dubin10:34

       If you see him, and you see him next to other people in his division and, and you didn't know anything about the sport, and you said, "That guy is the biggest puncher in his prime," people would be like, "Come on. The kid with the nice haircut and not overwhelming looking."

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:47

       Big drama show. (laughs)

   18. JDJosh Dubin10:49

       Big drama show. Listen, there's something about the way the fucking guy punches.

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:52

       Yeah.

   20. JDJosh Dubin10:53

       The torque on his punch. He knows how to put everything together just right...

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:57

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JDJosh Dubin10:58

       With the, with the right kind of torque and, and the way he turns his knuckles over.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:02

       He's also so well-schooled. Like, he's just so good at, you know, finding openings. You know, I, I felt like he won the first Canelo fight, and I felt like the second fight was arguable, but, you know, could even have been a draw. But his last fight... Who the fuck did he fight his last fight?

   24. JDJosh Dubin11:19

       I forgot.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:20

       He nuked some dude, but...

   26. JDJosh Dubin11:23

       I forgot.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:23

       He looks good. He looks good in a way that makes me suspicious.

   28. JDJosh Dubin11:28

       Well, you have-

   29. JRJoe Rogan11:28

       Because he's a little older.

   30. JDJosh Dubin11:29

       Yeah.
5. 11:40 – 24:19

   George Foreman’s comeback, Cooney’s left hook obsession, and body-shot psychology

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:40

      Back in the day, remember when Larry Holmes came back to fight Mike Tyson? People don't realize that. I think he was only 36. Well-

   2. JDJosh Dubin11:46

      That, that felt much older back then, didn't it?

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:48

      I know. Isn't that crazy? Like, 36 back then was fucking old.

   4. JDJosh Dubin11:50

      Even when George Foreman came back-

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:52

      Right.

   6. JDJosh Dubin11:53

      ... and knocked out Michael Moorer.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:54

      Crazy.

   8. JDJosh Dubin11:54

      I remem- I remember looking at him being like, "How's this old man doing it?"

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:57

      I know.

   10. JDJosh Dubin11:57

       But he was, like, in his early 40s.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:59

       I know. Well, he was 45, right?

   12. JDJosh Dubin12:01

       Was he that old?

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:01

       I think he was 45 because I think that was the oldest a person has won the heavyweight title.

   14. JDJosh Dubin12:06

       He looked-... every bit of 45, too. He was just-

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:09

       Well, he was so thick.

   16. JDJosh Dubin12:10

       He would walk forward-

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:11

       Yeah.

   18. JDJosh Dubin12:11

       ... and put those hands up like this or like this. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:13

       What a crazy style. Crazy style. Archie Moore-derived style, you know?

   20. JDJosh Dubin12:18

       Yeah. He was like, "If you could sneak one in there, I'll- I'll eat it."

   21. JRJoe Rogan12:21

       Yeah. (laughs) Well, he could take a shot too. That's the other thing about Foreman. He could take a shot, and his hands are as big as this fucking table.

   22. JDJosh Dubin12:29

       The nicest guy you'll ever meet, too. Sweetheart of a human being.

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       I believe it.

   24. JDJosh Dubin12:34

       Yeah, he really is. His whole family.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:36

       His w- his career is so interesting. Takes 10 years off, becomes a priest, right? And he's a preacher. And then comes back. When he comes back, he's like 330 or something like that. Way overweight, big, fat. Everybody's making a joke out of it. Like, "LOL, look at George Foreman mounting a comeback." And then you keep seeing him winning. And then he win- and every time he wins, he looks a little s- a little slimmer. Every time he wins, a little s- a little smaller. And then he gets in there with Gerry Cooney and beats the fuck out of him.

   26. JDJosh Dubin13:04

       I mean, that was, that was like if you ever won a show, here's what could happen to you, even at the highest levels of the sport.

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:11

       Pull that up.

   28. JDJosh Dubin13:12

       He beat the shit out of-

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:13

       George Foreman versus Gerry Cooney. And that was a time where Cooney was trying to make a comeback, and, uh, people weren't sure whether or not George was ready for top-notch fighters. That was pre-the Tommy Morrison fight, right?

   30. JDJosh Dubin13:26

       Yes.
6. 24:19 – 35:40

   Wilder’s ‘eraser,’ iconic KOs, and boxing’s vulture economics

   1. JRJoe Rogan24:19

      What do you think about what's going on with Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder? Do you think that Tyson knew that he was going to have to defend against Deontay and that this whole Anthony Joshua thing w- 'cause that's what Joshua thinks, that he knew the whole time that he was, wasn't going to be able to make that fight, and they were just letting them get all hyped up about it, but knew he had to really face Deontay Wilder because of the lawsuit.

   2. JDJosh Dubin24:42

      No, it's 100% not true.

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:43

      Not true?

   4. JDJosh Dubin24:43

      No. There was an arbitration going on, and they were actively trying to, you know, and I know this on firsthand knowledge, they were actively trying to make sure that they, um, he was trying to get out of the third fight. He thought that he had a contractual right not to have to fight that third fight because it had to happen at a certain time. Um, and they arbit- I mean, the arbitration's confidential, but I know what was going on and I know that they were actively trying to make sure that, um, he didn't have to fight that third fight.

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:13

      Mmm. (clicks tongue)

   6. JDJosh Dubin25:14

      So I don't, I don't believe in the conspiracy theory. I think Tyson Fury is, he's, call him whatever you want, but that's a man right there. He'll fight anyone.

   7. JRJoe Rogan25:24

      That's a fact.

   8. JDJosh Dubin25:25

      I mean, he's, if you ever see him live in a gym, I mean, everyone who's watching the sparrings, jaw is on the floor to watch this guy, as big as he is, with back fat (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan25:42

      (laughs)

   10. JDJosh Dubin25:42

       I mean-

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:42

       I do love that he gets fat.

   12. JDJosh Dubin25:44

       That back fat-

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:45

       Yeah.

   14. JDJosh Dubin25:45

       ... is like some stubborn, these, they look like two ham hocks and you see him and you're like, "What the fuck?"

   15. JRJoe Rogan25:52

       That's beer.

   16. JDJosh Dubin25:53

       It's, he moves like a fucking gazelle. He is, there's, I've never seen anything like it. Lennox has watched him and be like, like this, "I can't believe what I'm seeing." He's just remarkably gifted and, you know-

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:09

       Well, he's always moved like that. From the time he was young, he's moved like that. So it's just part of his style.

   18. JDJosh Dubin26:14

       Now he can punch a little bit, though.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:16

       Yeah. Well, now he, he sets down and he moves forward.

   20. JDJosh Dubin26:19

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:20

       Instead of just trying to box and box and box. You know, like, that was the key to the Wilder fight was the 12th round. 12th round of the first fight-

   22. JDJosh Dubin26:26

       Yes.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:26

       ... we had Wilder on his heels and he realized, "Okay, this is how you fight this guy."

   24. JDJosh Dubin26:30

       Yep.

   25. JRJoe Rogan26:31

       You go after him. Because if you just try to move around, then he can move forward and set his, set his punches in and put his weight behind his punches like he did in that 12th round and dropped him. But then when Tyson got up and then had Deontay backing up, as soon as he had Deontay backing up, it's almost like he was like, "Oh, this is how you fight this guy."

   26. JDJosh Dubin26:49

       Yes. And he can't fight backing up, in my humble opinion. Here I am again, this is my-

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:53

       Yeah.

   28. JDJosh Dubin26:53

       ... humble opinion. With all (laughs) ...

   29. JRJoe Rogan26:55

       He can fight backing up. It's just not his best, it's not his best position to be in. He's got that what Teddy Atlas calls the eraser. You know, like, all mistakes erased with one shot, though.

   30. JDJosh Dubin27:06

       Yeah, and I mean, that's another guy, it might not look as conventional, but I mean, I've s- he puts people, he pulls the plug on their-
7. 35:40 – 50:22

   Mayweather vs. Logan Paul: why spectacles pay and what fans really buy

   1. JRJoe Rogan35:40

      Well, this is what's going on right now, where a bunch of fighters are upset because Logan Paul and Floyd Mayweather just fought, and Logan Paul made 20 million bucks, and Floyd Mayweather made 100 million bucks, and they're looking at this like, "Hey, what about me? Like, how come I'm not making that kind of money?" And I think what they have to understand is, whether you like it or not, even if you're an elite, the elite of the elite, a Kamaru Usman or a, you know, a p- p- pick any, st- style bender, some of the best fighters in the UFC, even the elite of the elite, the money comes from people wanting to buy your pay-per-view. It's real simple.

   2. JDJosh Dubin36:14

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan36:14

      It shouldn't, maybe. You know, maybe in a, in a perfect world it's the s- most skillful fighter gets the most amount of money. But that's not how it works here.

   4. JDJosh Dubin36:21

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan36:21

      In, in, in the world of combat sports and professional prize fighting, it's all about how many eyes are gonna watch you. And that fucking Logan Paul kid has a lot of eyes on him. He's had a YouTube channel since he was 14 years old, he's been on Disney shows. He's this controversial, larger-than-life, uh, you know, internet celebrity. And people are willing to pay a lot of money to see if he can box with literally one of the greatest fighters that's ever lived in Floyd Mayweather.

   6. JDJosh Dubin36:47

      Hey, look-I'm not mad at it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan36:49

      I'm-

   8. JDJosh Dubin36:49

      I'm not-

   9. JRJoe Rogan36:49

      ... not mad at it, either.

   10. JDJosh Dubin36:50

       Yeah, and you know what? The best fighters in... Some of the best fighters to ever fight, Lennox Lewis, Andre Ward, these guys that I had the honor of representing, ne- you'd never hear out of these elites that they're pissed. (laughs) They're like, "Good for them." Because I think that they get on a fundamental level that as human beings, we unfortunately, we're hardwired to watch the train wreck. We want to see carnage. Um-

   11. JRJoe Rogan37:19

       But we want to see a freak show, too.

   12. JDJosh Dubin37:20

       And we want, and we want... It is a freak show. I mean-

   13. JRJoe Rogan37:22

       That was a freak show.

   14. JDJosh Dubin37:22

       It's a circ- it's a s-

   15. JRJoe Rogan37:23

       I was looking forward to it.

   16. JDJosh Dubin37:24

       It-

   17. JRJoe Rogan37:24

       I really was. I was so excited before the bell rang for the first round.

   18. JDJosh Dubin37:28

       It's like going to the circus, almost. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan37:30

       It's like a dude wrestling a bear.

   20. JDJosh Dubin37:31

       I mean-

   21. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       Like, can he wrestle a bear?

   22. JDJosh Dubin37:33

       It... You know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of when, uh, Rocky fought Hulk Hogan-

   23. JRJoe Rogan37:38

       (laughs)

   24. JDJosh Dubin37:38

       ... in one of the Rocky movies.

   25. JRJoe Rogan37:39

       Well, the thing... The difference though is that Floyd... First of all, you gotta give credit to Floyd Mayweather for doing that because it's so crazy to fight a guy 35 pounds heavier than you. That's so big.

   26. JDJosh Dubin37:49

       He looked like, he, he looked like he was fighting a giant.

   27. JRJoe Rogan37:52

       Yeah.

   28. JDJosh Dubin37:53

       It was like... And, and to watch him... Look, I... People have a lot of opinions about Floyd Mayweather, what he does, how he spends his money. Listen, the guy's brilliant in a lot of ways. He's tapped into something that human beings want-

   29. JRJoe Rogan38:05

       Yeah.

   30. JDJosh Dubin38:05

       ... and want to see. But I was watching him in the fight, the guy outweighs him by 40 pounds, and he's walking to him.
8. 50:22 – 54:56

   Exhibitions everywhere: Tyson–Lennox talk, matchup magic, and MMA’s live intensity

   1. JDJosh Dubin50:22

      I have a qui- I have a question for you. What do you make of all of these? These exhibitions have like caught fire. I don't know if it's because of COVID that people began like thinking, "Well, if I gotta watch something, I'll watch anything."

   2. JRJoe Rogan50:35

      Yeah.

   3. JDJosh Dubin50:35

      And then they watch ... And, and you know, Tyson and Lennox are now talking about an exhibition. That might happen. I think it probably will happen. Um, I think that there is something ... And I'm biased. There's something interesting to me to see how will a guy in his mid-50s get in shape enough ... 'cause Lennox is a perfectionist.

   4. JRJoe Rogan50:57

      Yeah.

   5. JDJosh Dubin50:57

      How will he get in shape to the point where he feels comfortable getting into a ring? That will be interesting to me to watch.

   6. JRJoe Rogan51:03

      It's pretty crazy. It, it is interesting. See, it doesn't necessarily matter who's the most skillful. It matters what's the most entertaining. I'll give you an example. Arturo Gatti and Micky Ward. It's not saying that those guys weren't skillful. They're both very skillful fighters. But they weren't the best in the world. But what a fucking matchup that was.

   7. JDJosh Dubin51:21

      Oh my God.

   8. JRJoe Rogan51:21

      When those guys fought-

   9. JDJosh Dubin51:22

      Oh my God.

   10. JRJoe Rogan51:23

       When those guys fought, the whole world watched. Becau- ... And no one was under any illusion that those guys were going to be the best in the world. That they were the world champions. It didn't matter. It was just like, this is a recipe for a fucking really incredibly exciting fight.

   11. JDJosh Dubin51:37

       It was an apocalyptic cataclysmic explosion.

   12. JRJoe Rogan51:40

       (laughs) Yeah.

   13. JDJosh Dubin51:40

       I went to the second fight and it was like in that Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City.

   14. JRJoe Rogan51:45

       Yeah.

   15. JDJosh Dubin51:45

       The place was fucking vibrating.

   16. JRJoe Rogan51:47

       There's fights that it doesn't ... It's not important that they're not the best in the world. What's important is how they match up. A good example in MMA is Diego Sanchez versus Clay Guida.

   17. JDJosh Dubin51:57

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan51:58

       One of the wildest fights of all ti- ... Have you ever seen it?

   19. JDJosh Dubin52:01

       No.

   20. JRJoe Rogan52:02

       Jamie. Pull that shit up.

   21. JDJosh Dubin52:03

       No.

   22. JRJoe Rogan52:04

       'Cause th- it is one of the wildest fights of all time. First of all, this was Diego Sanchez in his prime when he was a fucking savage. Still is a savage. But in that day, uh, I mean, he, he fought like nobody else. He would just come at you like a wild animal. Like a wolverine. Just like a wolverine trying to steal your food. And the two guys just went to war. And, uh, I believe it was at The Palm in Vegas. Like, Diego just runs at him. Look it. This is the beginning of the fight. This is the first seconds.

   23. JDJosh Dubin52:35

       Oh, this is the first round?

   24. JRJoe Rogan52:36

       This is the first seconds.

   25. JDJosh Dubin52:37

       I thought you were showing me highlights.

   26. JRJoe Rogan52:38

       No, man. This is the first seconds of the fucking opening round. They were going after each other. I mean, it is f- ... First of all, Clay Guida takes a shot like fucking no one on the planet.

   27. JDJosh Dubin52:48

       Does he survive this round?

   28. JRJoe Rogan52:49

       Yes. He almost wins the fight and arguably did. He, he lost a split decision. It was a crazy ass fight but he, he got hurt in this fight. But I mean, you ... The way they fought, they did this for three fucking rounds. Um, Clay wound up, uh, taking him down and, and winning, uh, at least one of the rounds with some ground and pound. (sniffs) And some people, uh, thought that maybe it was close enough that he pulled it off. But it was maybe even a draw. But Diego ... I mean, I'm not arguing against the decision. I'm just saying, it turned out to be pretty fucking close.

   29. JDJosh Dubin53:21

       Well how, how fitting is it that he's wearing a Chicago Carpenters Union-

   30. JRJoe Rogan53:25

       Yeah.
9. 54:56 – 1:15:45

   Canelo’s evolution, Oscar nostalgia, and the mental game of promotion

   1. JDJosh Dubin54:56

      I don't know, man. I've ... Like Shakur Stevenson, who I think is special. One of the most special fighters in the world right now. Shakur says to me, "Watch him in the pocket. He ... Watch him make people miss." And he, he'll give me timestamps. He said, "Watch this round. How does he do it? He makes people ..." And Shakur is a very, um-... how sh- how shall we say, self-assured young man. He doesn't think anyone ... But he, he said, "That's the GOAT right there."

   2. JRJoe Rogan55:24

      Hmm.

   3. JDJosh Dubin55:24

      "The guy stands in the pocket and with these little subtle dips of his shoulder or angles on his head, he just knows how to make people miss. He's remarkable."

   4. JRJoe Rogan55:31

      Well, he learned so much from that Floyd fight, right? He fought Floyd and Floyd was so hard to hit and I think that was a real eye-opener for him, because he's this murderous young puncher, just, just seek and destroy Mexican-style fighter. And then he fights Floyd Mayweather and he can't hit him and he's like, "Oh, shit."

   5. JDJosh Dubin55:47

      "This is, this is crazy."

   6. JRJoe Rogan55:48

      "This is the thing."

   7. JDJosh Dubin55:49

      The first time I went ... I, I managed a kid named Kermit Cintron who was a welterweight champion of the world.

   8. JRJoe Rogan55:56

      I remember him.

   9. JDJosh Dubin55:57

      Best athlete to this day, pure athlete that I've ever managed. He could bowl like a 280. He could ... Jamie, he could golf, fucking great golfer. He could play basketball, amazing balance. Unbelievable. So I had him training with Emanuel Steward at one point, but Ronnie Shields is a great trainer in Houston. Um, trained him and we g- he got a fight with Canelo. This is maybe eight years ago. And he was fighting in Mexico City and we, we went down to Mexico City. James Prince wouldn't come. (laughs) He's like, "I don't know why you're going to Mexico City." He's like, "Black guys and Jews don't belong in Mexico City." (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan56:43

       (laughs)

   11. JDJosh Dubin56:43

       "We're all gonna get kidnapped." So we go down to Mexico City and the fight is in a fucking bull ring, all right? Now, Canelo was smaller physically back then. The first round, um, Mauricio Sulaimán, who is the head of the WBC, comes over to me and says, "Do you want a drink?" All right? I said, "No, I'm good." We were ... They were warming up in trailers set up like it was a movie set. We walk into this bull ring, there's 9,000 people and it's like, it's like they're right on top of the ring. And this guy, Canelo, came out in the first round and he hit Kermit with a one-two and the matchmaker standing next to me goes, "This guy is gonna fucking put a hole into Kermit. He's gonna put a hole." I have never seen a guy that size punch the way he punched like a fucking mule. And Sulaimán must have seen the look on my face. He didn't come over and say, "Do you want another drink?" He handed me a double scotch-

   12. JRJoe Rogan57:45

       (laughs)

   13. JDJosh Dubin57:46

       ... (laughs) and just walked away. I was like, "That's about right." And Kermit just didn't make it out of the third or fourth round. He just overwhelmed him. Powerful, skillful and just ... He's got that, that ... There's like a, a res- a dominant gene in his genetic sequence where he just, like ... There's just something special about him. I don't think he's gonna be beat.

   14. JRJoe Rogan58:08

       He's a monster and he's so dedicated. It's not just that ... You know, like there was ... What is that guy? Graham Elwood? Is that the guy's name that, um ... He does, uh, interviews on YouTube. Is that his name? I forget the guy's name. I'm sorry. Uh, but the guy has a, a bunch of, uh, interviews on, uh, YouTube. He's a really good interviewer and he goes to Canelo's home.

   15. JDJosh Dubin58:30

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan58:30

       And, uh, he interviews Canelo and Canelo gives him a tour of all of his cars and shows his house and all these different things that he does. And, uh, he, he ... And Canelo basically ... He's going over his philosophy on staying at the top and he's like, "Y- you know, a lot of times people get to the top and they're not hungry anymore, you know?" And he's like, "But I'm very, very hungry." He goes, "I, I want to be the best ever." And he goes, "And I just ... It's all about hard work." And he just keeps working harder and harder and harder and keeps putting in that time. Like you could see it in his head, it's like he's dedicated on this path. He's not, he's not like full of himself. He's, he's-

   17. JDJosh Dubin59:06

       No.

   18. JRJoe Rogan59:06

       ... obviously super confident but aware that all this could go away if he starts to think about it the wrong way. If he starts to think that he's already made it or that he doesn't have to work as hard because he's so much better than everybody else, he doesn't think that way.

   19. JDJosh Dubin59:18

       Cool motherfucker too.

   20. JRJoe Rogan59:19

       Yeah.

   21. JDJosh Dubin59:19

       Just k- ... He didn't know ... Like treats everybody respectfully.

   22. JRJoe Rogan59:23

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JDJosh Dubin59:23

       Just, just seems like a super grounded guy.

   24. JRJoe Rogan59:25

       He's amazing, man. It's ... And you need those outliers. You need those people like him to shake up the industry. You need people like him that are so good and so dedicated and so physically dominant. And I, I always go back to, um, the fight with Danny Jacobs. Like that to me was like the clearest progression of his defensive skills. 'Cause you know, Danny can crack and he's dangerous. He's a-

   25. JDJosh Dubin59:47

       And a super athlete too.

   26. JRJoe Rogan59:48

       And he's a big guy.

   27. JDJosh Dubin59:49

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan59:49

       And he's coming at Canelo throwing bombs and Canelo's just-

   29. JDJosh Dubin59:52

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan59:52

       ... bobbing and weaving and standing in front of him. Like using it as an opportunity almost to-

Episode duration: 2:49:47