Joe Rogan Experience #1668 - Krystal & Saagar

Narrator 0:00 (drum roll) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) We're rolling. So, uh, you guys have a new show. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 0:17 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 0:18 Hey, Joe. What's up?

Joe Rogan 0:19 I just wanna say, I told you. I knew it was gonna work.

Krystal Ball 0:22 Yeah. You were-

Saagar Enjeti 0:22 It never would've happened without you. I-

Joe Rogan 0:24 I knew it was gonna work. I was like, "Why are you, like, trapped?" Yeah.

Krystal Ball 0:27 I mean, uh, it really is actually true. We've been thinking about going independent for a while, because it's just more consistent with our values. The Hill takes money from all kinds of people-

Saagar Enjeti 0:36 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 0:36 ... that are very contrary to the things that we've been talking about. But you know, it's scary to... I got kids. I got, you know, bills-

Saagar Enjeti 0:43 Health insurance, yeah.

Krystal Ball 0:44 ... to handle, the health insurance, all this stuff.

Joe Rogan 0:45 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 0:45 And so, I think especially during COVID when we couldn't actually directly interact with the audience in person, it's hard to know how real it is. So, when we talked to you and we were like, "Uh, we're thinking about it. We're kinda nervous," and you were s- you weren't just like, "Maybe," you were like, "Yes, do this," it actually really did help us to make the move. So thank you.

Saagar Enjeti 1:05 No, no question.

Joe Rogan 1:06 I am the terrible person to take advice like that from 'cause I'm always like, "Jump!"

Saagar Enjeti 1:10 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 1:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10 Fucking jump!

Krystal Ball 1:11 Well, in this case-

Joe Rogan 1:11 No, but you were right.

Krystal Ball 1:11 ... it was the right call, so...

Joe Rogan 1:14 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 1:14 It was-

Krystal Ball 1:14 ... broken clock or whatever.

Saagar Enjeti 1:15 It's really scary. Um, and it's one of those things where, we were telling you this before, where you're like, you don't know, uh, if you're, you're like, "Am I gonna miss this?" You have these guys. You have the support. Like, I don't have to-

Joe Rogan 1:25 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 1:25 ... deal with all this, like, administrative stuff and, like, set design and upload. But honestly, we love it so much. Like, we, we wrapped, I think, our second show, so we could finally hang out. And I w- I, I text her. I was like, "This is amazing! Like, we're free!"

Krystal Ball 1:38 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 1:39 We do it the way that we want. We produce it the way that we want. And just having all the, like, big stuff outta your mind in terms of, like, the pressures of corporate media, because to be clear, like, The Hill never, like, directly censored us, right? But, and you've talked about this, it's about these outside interests. Like, there's interests that their company has that have nothing to do with us but could impact their interest based upon what I say. And I've told this story publicly now about what happened, but like, we were doing a segment, just a basic segment. I wanna, I wanna be very charitable. And once again, to be clear, The Hill never said anything. They said, "Don't say this," or whatever. But we're talking about the seniority system for Democrats in Congress. And I was like, this creates really perverse incentives because you have all these really old people who run Congress, like Maxine Waters, who's, like, 80 years old. Here's all I said. "Maxine Waters will be chairwoman of the Financial Services Committee till the day she dies." That's it. So, I later find out, her fucking press secretary called someone at The Hill and said, "Sagar's issuing a death threat against Maxine Waters."

Joe Rogan 2:41 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 2:41 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 2:41 Sagar's issuing... And I, I, I...

Joe Rogan 2:44 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 2:44 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 2:44 And here, what do I wanna say? I wanna say, "Go fuck yourself."

Krystal Ball 2:47 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 2:47 I mean, like, literally put me on the phone with them, "Go fuck yourself," but here's the problem. And once again, The Hill didn't say anything, but I have to know this in the back of my mind. Hill reporters have to go and talk to Maxine Waters. That's literally part of their job.

Joe Rogan 2:59 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 3:00 Like, she's chairmanwoman of the Financial Services Committee. She has a lot of access, one of the most powerful people in Washington. She does other shit with The Hill. And so, in the back of my mind, I'm like, "Can I say whatever the fuck I want about Maxine Waters?" I mean, they didn't tell me to say it, but even if it's the back of my mind, like, I would be lying if I wasn't saying that that wasn't with me a little bit, right?

Joe Rogan 3:20 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 3:20 Like, you're always thinking. You're like, "Man-"

Krystal Ball 3:22 Well, you're a human being.

Saagar Enjeti 3:22 "... it's not... They're not gonna fuck with me. They're gonna try and fuck with your boss."

Joe Rogan 3:25 But they're putting it out there in the air, though, so they're making you think about it.

Saagar Enjeti 3:29 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:29 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 3:29 Right. That's exactly right.

Joe Rogan 3:29 That's the whole purpose of it.

Krystal Ball 3:30 That's exactly right.

Joe Rogan 3:31 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 3:31 And there were things too, like, I didn't even want... Because the whole ethos of our show is we're independent minded, right? We're not carrying water for anyone. We have our views. We're very upfront about those views, but we're not doing partisan cheerleading here. We're not carrying water for any corporation or entity or anything like that. And so, even the appearance of, The Hill's a corporate entity and they're taking money from these various places, that's their right to do, the, even the appearance that that would affect our coverage really, really bothered me.

Joe Rogan 4:01 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 4:01 And so I'll give you a perfect example. I don't know if you, do you know about this case of Steven Donziger? It's a crazy thing.

Joe Rogan 4:07 What's the-

Krystal Ball 4:07 He, so He's the-

Saagar Enjeti 4:08 He's a lawyer, yeah.

Krystal Ball 4:10 He's a lawyer who won a massive lawsuit against Chevron for the horrific things that they did in Ecuador and basically, like, destroyed the whole area. And he wins a $9 billion, I think it was, suit against them, largest in history. They hit him. They're trying to fight back against him. They hit him with a contempt of court charge, which is a misdemeanor, which is nothing. He's been under house arrest for now two years, completely unprecedented. Show trial, it's, it's an insane situation. And we were working on getting him booked to talk about this, and meanwhile I'm seeing tweets that are saying, "Krystal and Sagar aren't covering this-"

Saagar Enjeti 4:44 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 4:44 "... because The Hill's taking money from the American Petroleum Institute."

Joe Rogan 4:47 Mm.

Krystal Ball 4:48 Now, that wasn't true at all. We were working-

Joe Rogan 4:50 Yeah, we booked it.

Saagar Enjeti 4:50 (laughs) Yeah.

Krystal Ball 4:50 We booked it. We talked to him. We talked to other people about the case.

Saagar Enjeti 4:52 Right.

Krystal Ball 4:52 We, we covered the case. But I hated that that was even a, a legitimate, by the way, question in people's minds. So it was things like that. And I have to say, like Sagar... I was worried there would be things that I really missed about having the corporate structure, like just that support system around. We feel so free. Doing the show is just an absolute pleasure. We feel unencumbered. It's, it's actually even more of a relief, and the audience has showed up for us-

Saagar Enjeti 5:18 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 5:19 ... even more than we ever could've expected.

Saagar Enjeti 5:21 It was amazing. I mean, it, I mean, I got, you know... Maxine, you can't control me now. You don't... I got... You, you got nothing on me.

Krystal Ball 5:28 Yeah. No.

Joe Rogan 5:28 Well, that's, it's, like, the thing is, like, what they did by saying that you issued a death threat against them-

Saagar Enjeti 5:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:33 ... is literally, that is everything that's wrong with politics and everything that's right about your show, is that you guys are just present and honest. And you see things and you talk about those things without biases. And you have, you have perspectives, but you don't have biases. And the problem with these people is it's all bullshit. And so, like, by saying that, they know you didn't really issue a death threat.

Krystal Ball 5:55 Of course.

Joe Rogan 5:55 That's cause... By saying... Everyone knows.

Saagar Enjeti 5:56 He knows. He knows. He knew when, when he opened his mouth.

Krystal Ball 5:58 Of course.

Joe Rogan 5:58 Everyone knows. Everyone knows.

Saagar Enjeti 5:59 And the, the crazy thing is-

Joe Rogan 5:59 But they're playing a game.

Saagar Enjeti 6:00 ... th- this, this happened twice. So this happened to another time. So, I was doing a lot of reporting around TikTok. And I was noticing all of these former Republican lawmaker lobbyists are working now for TikTok 'cause I heard they were paying top dollar rates. So I do some investigation. This is basic Google. I went on Google, and I was looking at who TikTok has been hiring. And one of them, and I'm not kidding you, is the former head or a part of the Department of Homeland Security Cybersecurity Division-

Joe Rogan 6:27 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 6:27 ... who is now working for TikTok.

Krystal Ball 6:30 Mm-hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 6:30 The Chinese government.

Krystal Ball 6:31 Mm-hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 6:31 ... okay, for a Chinese-controlled app. All right. So, I put that on the show. I did a whole monologue about all these people who work in Washington. You know, I was like, "You wanna see the revolving door? This is it." These people are complete, like, uh, like, murderer for hires, in terms-

Krystal Ball 6:45 They're mercenaries.

Saagar Enjeti 6:45 They're mercenaries.

Krystal Ball 6:45 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 6:45 They don't give a shit about you. They don't give a shit about America, any of this stuff. The former cybersecurity lady is now working for TikTok. All right. And it's public. And so I put it on the show. What do you think happens? TikTok calls somebody over at The Hill and says, "Sagar is threatening the lives of the people at TikTok."

Joe Rogan 7:01 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 7:01 And I'm like, "Fu-"... Yeah, once again-

Krystal Ball 7:03 Sagar's-

Saagar Enjeti 7:03 "... Fuck you."

Krystal Ball 7:04 ... a very dangerous man over here.

Joe Rogan 7:04 Yeah, I'm a dangerous man. I'm an extreme dangerous-

Saagar Enjeti 7:07 You're a crazy person.

Joe Rogan 7:07 Left and right.

Krystal Ball 7:08 You're very, you're very brave for inviting him in here today, Joe. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 7:10 Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Joe. Um, I know you're MMA-trained, but apparently, I'm-

Joe Rogan 7:12 But there's no weapons.

Saagar Enjeti 7:13 Yeah, I'm issuing, uh, I'm issuing death threats, like, left and right. But again, now once I have to think about this. I'm like, "This is crazy." And here's the other problem. The Hill was taking ad dollars at the time from Huawei. So, Huawei, which is a Chinese telecom company.

Joe Rogan 7:27 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 7:27 And I was thinking in the back of my mind, "Man, if TikTok was real smart, they would buy some advertising at The Hill." Because then I'd really have to be like, "Oh, shit."

Joe Rogan 7:33 Why was The Hill taking money from Hua-... Was this pa-... after the ban?

Saagar Enjeti 7:37 I don't-

Krystal Ball 7:38 Look-

Saagar Enjeti 7:38 Once again, they can do whatever they want. They're a media business.

Joe Rogan 7:39 But that is a weird one, right?

Saagar Enjeti 7:40 It's not unusual.

Joe Rogan 7:41 Is that a weird one?

Saagar Enjeti 7:42 Everyone takes money from Huawei.

Krystal Ball 7:43 Everybody takes money-

Joe Rogan 7:43 Really?

Saagar Enjeti 7:43 WaPo, New York Times, like, all of them.

Joe Rogan 7:45 Yeah?

Krystal Ball 7:45 Everybody takes money from it-

Saagar Enjeti 7:46 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 7:46 ... whoever they can. I mean, the media business in a l-... Some ways, it was really brought, you know, back from the dead by Trump because he increased traffic so much and subscriber numbers so much for The New York Times and Washington Post. I mean, that's the irony of his whole attack on the media was the best thing that ever happened to the media. But the overall model is in free fall. And people are revolting. I mean, that's really what w-... with the success of your show, with, you know, what, what has happened with Breaking Points, our new show that has been totally wild, is people don't want this spoon-fed narrative. They don't want to have to think about, like, "Why is this paper covering these politicians in this incredibly fluffy way?" Because they're more interested in maintaining their access and maintaining their social status within that club than they are in actually getting the facts right in a way that can be... that can require sometimes courage, that can be uncomfortable sometimes with your social set. And so I really do see it as kind of a, a watershed moment where some of the old models are dying and people are, are, are sick and tired of having their attention monetized. They're sick and tired of being fed whatever the, like, safe mainstream narrative is. And all they want is just someone who, look, may get it wrong sometimes, but is really just trying to figure out what the truth of, of the matter is.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 9:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Yeah, it's, it's some... It's actually a viable strategy to tell the truth now-

Krystal Ball 9:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:14 ... as far as, like, a marketing-

Saagar Enjeti 9:16 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 9:16 Y-... True, yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 9:17 ... strategy.

Krystal Ball 9:17 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 9:17 Do you remember that clip of the Amy Robach and Epstein, where the Disney-

Joe Rogan 9:20 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 9:21 She worked for E-... And that, that... She laid it all out there-

Joe Rogan 9:23 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 9:23 ... and she didn't even know. But this is what I'm talking about. She was like, "Oh, the Palace got involved."

Joe Rogan 9:27 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 9:27 "And they started calling this, and then Will and Kate's what..." That's it.

Joe Rogan 9:30 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 9:30 That's all the... a little peak behind the curtain, and it repeats itself.

Joe Rogan 9:33 Isn't that amazing that that lady, like, her doing that in front of the camera just, like... and, and not knowing that they were even filming-

Saagar Enjeti 9:39 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 9:39 ... and then someone takes it and releases it. Everybody gets a chance to see.

Saagar Enjeti 9:42 So, what do they say not on camera?

Joe Rogan 9:44 Well, there's a few-

Saagar Enjeti 9:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:44 ... of these things that are happening, right? Like, h- how about the John Cena one?

Saagar Enjeti 9:47 Oh, yeah. Yeah, the John Cena one was crazy.

Krystal Ball 9:48 This was called Wild West, right?

Joe Rogan 9:49 The John Cena one was a wake-up call for America.

Krystal Ball 9:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 9:50 'Cause all these fucking pro-wrestling fans are like, "Wait a minute."

Saagar Enjeti 9:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:53 "He's speaking Chinese." Like, "This is real."

Saagar Enjeti 9:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:55 "This shit is real."

Krystal Ball 9:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:57 "John Cena's speaking Mandarin. He's apologizing for calling-"

Saagar Enjeti 9:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:59 "... Taiwan a country."

Saagar Enjeti 10:00 Yeah. "I know." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:01 "And, uh, uh, is he using a filter? 'Cause he looks slightly Asian."

Saagar Enjeti 10:05 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 10:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:06 Right?

Saagar Enjeti 10:07 So, we later found out-

Krystal Ball 10:08 He looks panicked.

Saagar Enjeti 10:08 ... the man speaks fluent Mandarin-

Joe Rogan 10:09 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 10:09 ... which kind of helps.

Krystal Ball 10:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:10 Well, yeah, we, we figured it out.

Krystal Ball 10:11 It's really help.

Joe Rogan 10:11 In 2014-

Saagar Enjeti 10:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 10:12 ... Vince t- taught him or had him take lessons to learn Mandarin so that he could go and-

Krystal Ball 10:17 Oh, that's where... Wait. Vince McMahon?

Joe Rogan 10:17 ... appeal to the Chinese market. Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 10:19 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 10:19 What?

Joe Rogan 10:20 He's a genius.

Saagar Enjeti 10:20 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 10:21 Whoa.

Joe Rogan 10:21 Vince McMahon's a fucking genius.

Saagar Enjeti 10:21 That guy is a, that guy is a killer when it comes to making money.

Krystal Ball 10:24 Whoa.

Saagar Enjeti 10:24 So I get it.

Joe Rogan 10:24 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 10:24 But-

Krystal Ball 10:24 Wow.

Joe Rogan 10:25 He wanted him, uh, appeal to the Chinese market, so he taught... th- they gave him classes. And, look, it's a difficult thing to learn. I mean, it's amazing how well he spoke it.

Krystal Ball 10:33 I know. It's one of the most difficult languages.

Joe Rogan 10:35 And-

Saagar Enjeti 10:35 And-

Joe Rogan 10:35 A lot of people were like, "Bluh-bluh-bluh. Wait. What is going on here?"

Krystal Ball 10:38 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 10:38 That movie proves everything about what went wrong with America, with Hollywood entertainment. That movie, Vin Diesel begged to open that movie in China because all of their opening dollars come from China.

Joe Rogan 10:50 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 10:50 Fast and Furious 9. First, I, I did a whole monologue about this and I was like, "Do we really need 9?" That's, like, the first question. (laughs) I'm like-

Krystal Ball 10:56 Mm, I don't even know.

Saagar Enjeti 10:56 ... "Question one, do we need 9?"

Joe Rogan 10:58 We do.

Krystal Ball 10:58 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 10:58 Uh, I mean, look, they are...

Krystal Ball 10:59 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 10:59 The ones with The Rock, shout out to The Rock, are actually awesome. But-

Joe Rogan 11:01 This one doesn't have The Rock?

Saagar Enjeti 11:03 I don't know, actually.

Joe Rogan 11:03 Oh, boycott. I'll boycott.

Saagar Enjeti 11:04 I think... (laughs)

Krystal Ball 11:05 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 11:05 Whatever F6 is, where The Rock was in it, I love The Rock.

Joe Rogan 11:08 Yes.

Krystal Ball 11:08 You were fine with the John Cena thing-

Saagar Enjeti 11:10 Right.

Krystal Ball 11:10 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 11:10 But you draw the line at no Rock. That's it.

Joe Rogan 11:12 Yeah, no Rock?

Saagar Enjeti 11:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:13 How are you going to have Fast and Furious- That's bullshit.

Saagar Enjeti 11:14 Without The Rock?

Krystal Ball 11:14 It's a joke.

Joe Rogan 11:15 That's outrageous.

Saagar Enjeti 11:16 But F9 makes all of its money in China. And so-

Joe Rogan 11:19 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 11:19 ... what happens is that Hollywood-

Joe Rogan 11:21 You know the numbers? The numbers are crazy on that.

Saagar Enjeti 11:21 It was 140 million or something like that.

Joe Rogan 11:23 Th- this is the difference.

Saagar Enjeti 11:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:24 100... There was $160 million opening weekend. 134 of it was from China.

Saagar Enjeti 11:28 Yeah, see, exactly.

Krystal Ball 11:29 Wow.

Saagar Enjeti 11:29 And so Hollywood and these companies know, Universal Pictures, who is owned by NBC, who is owned by Comcast, all have business in China. And Hollywood, Disney, and all the... r-... I mean, the Mulan thing. That was insane. When Mulan, at the end of the live-action Mulan, they thanked the Chinese agency f-... in the credit section, which is responsible for carrying out some of the Uyghur genocide in Xinjiang. They thanked them openly in the credits, and they have never apologized for it. They put it in the end of the credit section, "Thank you to the Turpan Security Agency," or whatever, who they worked with when they were filming Mulan in China. This is Disney, an American corporation.

Joe Rogan 12:06 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 12:06 And it's not just that. It's because they have Disneyland Shanghai. Disney has massive business in China. All of their future, like, outlooks and growth. And look, I get it. Like, their job is to make money and increase value to the shareholder. And there's a billion people in China. They've basically maxed out market penetration whenever it comes to the US. But these are American comp-... Like, we made these, and Americans need to ask, like, is it cool that the richest and most powerful people in this country-

Krystal Ball 12:32 But-

Saagar Enjeti 12:32 ... are, like, sold out to China?

Krystal Ball 12:34 I mean, but here's the thing.

Joe Rogan 12:35 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 12:35 It's like, I don't even necessarily, like... Obviously, John Cena-

Joe Rogan 12:38 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 12:38 ... has his own personal agency in this.

Saagar Enjeti 12:39 I don't blame John, but-

Krystal Ball 12:41 The country's not about anything other than money. I mean, we just abandon every value other than-... profit maximization and the bottom line and-

Joe Rogan 12:50 That's what people need to understand about all this woke shit.

Saagar Enjeti 12:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 12:52 It's really not about changing culture.

Krystal Ball 12:54 Uh, yeah, it's about money. I mean, that's, that, I was just-

Joe Rogan 12:57 Yeah. It's about power.

Krystal Ball 12:58 You know, it's just, like, it's funny. There's a big, um, article in New York Times today about inside an Amazon warehouse, right? And Amazon was the first to say, "Black lives matter," and put that, uh, banner up on their page and everything. And look, I support a lot of goals of that movement, but you read through this article and you find out, first of all, the way they treat their largely Black and Brown warehouse workers, I mean, it's despicable. They intentionally make sure they cannot move up the ladder, r- that's part of their business policy is if you're an hourly worker, you're not gonna get promoted, and they try to force you out after three years because they think you're getting lazy. So, this is the company that can, on the surface level, say, "Black lives matter," because they think that's good for their profit maximization and their brand and their shareholder value. Um, at the same time, what they're actually doing in real life, wildly different than that. So, y-

Joe Rogan 13:50 Are th- and they specifically target Black and Brown people in this way?

Krystal Ball 13:53 Well, they target their warehouse workers who are ... So, the ... Warehouse workers are 50 some percent Black and Brown. Management is 50 some ... is overwhelmingly white and Asian.

Joe Rogan 14:04 What is... I thought the whole thing about Amazon was that you could move up the ladder.

Krystal Ball 14:07 Nope. Walmart, who I'm also not a fan of, they actually promote from within. So, most Walmart managers start out as hourly employees, so at least they have a track up. And again, I'm not a fan of Walmart, okay? Amazon intentionally, and this is what the New York Times revealed, they intentionally have a system because Bezos said he believes that these human beings are lazy and that after, you know, that they're gonna do the bare minimum-

Joe Rogan 14:33 Was co- he was quoted saying this? Bezos was quoted saying they're lazy?

Krystal Ball 14:35 I'm going ... I will, I'll find you-

Saagar Enjeti 14:36 Let's ... Or, or Jamie, if you can pull him-

Joe Rogan 14:37 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 14:38 Yeah, I'll actually-

Joe Rogan 14:38 I think there's a difference-

Saagar Enjeti 14:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:39 ... between lazy and having a shitty job.

Saagar Enjeti 14:41 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 14:42 Like, exactly right.

Joe Rogan 14:42 And people need to understand that.

Krystal Ball 14:43 When you're abused, you're treated like a robot and a cog day in and day out. You're fired, like-

Saagar Enjeti 14:48 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 14:48 ... if you are a little bit slow on your tasks, you might get fired by a freaking app. Like, that's how dehumanizing it is.

Joe Rogan 14:54 Well, let's explain, let's explain to people don't understand how it works over there. Y- does anybody wanna explain?

Saagar Enjeti 14:57 Yeah. I mean, they work in the ware- ... Right. So, they have ph- phones that are on there. Ev- everything's tracking your movements, steps, bathroom breaks as well. So, the warehouses are also very large, so let's say you technically have a 20-minute break, it might take you 10 minutes to actually walk to the break room and back. So, you actually have what, like, a two-minute break while you're in there. And the whole thing around Amazon and why everyone should care is because Amazon under the pandemic exploded. Their stock price went up from, I think, 1,000 or so to a couple, 3,000. Bezos personally, his wealth increased by $70 billion. Amazon is now the second-largest employer in the United States. And this is incredibly important because as more Amazon market adoption happens, they are basically going to become the employer of choice. Whatever your grocery store or whatever was in your small town, these are the rural working class Americans, this is their only job. So, when you have one company which has all of this overwhelming power over rural working Americans and even suburban Americans, because this is Amazon's strategy. Dayton, Ohio is a good example. Alec MacGillis, he wrote a great book on Amazon, shout out to him, talked about how Dayton was like this Silicon Valley of America in the 1900s, and s- you know, it's manufacturing, middle-class jobs. Now, Dayton's prized economic value comes from the fact that it's one day's drive from one-third of the US population, so it's a great place for cardboard. So, everybody there is also involved in creating cardboard and other Amazon infrastructure. So, the Amazonification, so to speak, or whatever, of America makes it so that if y- let's say 30 years ago, you grew up in your town, you may have to go to Walmart, H-E-B were here, you know, I grew up here in Texas, Kroger as well, McDonald's, something like that. Now, it's basically like McDonald's, Dairy Queen, and Amazon. And when Amazon is the prime market employer, they are the sole determiner of market conditions increasingly. So, it's Walmart and Amazon, which are number two. And we're talking about millions of people who are now working at this company. So, people are like, "Why do you guys talk so much about Amazon?" Because I can see the trends. This company's not going anywhere. Look, props to them, like, they're ... I love Amazon. Like, I order a lot of stuff on Amazon. But increasingly becoming aware of the price of what it takes to do overnight delivery to your house at 4:00 AM in the morning, or increasingly becoming aware of the fact that they are basically on this mission to drive price down as much as possible and squeeze as much out of their workforce, that is where it's troubling. What was the furniture thing that we just covered?

Krystal Ball 17:27 Yeah. That was-

Saagar Enjeti 17:27 This was crazy.

Krystal Ball 17:28 Well, and did you see their delivery drivers-

Saagar Enjeti 17:30 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 17:31 ... have so f- are so like, the, the demands are so intense, they're having to pee in bottles and shit in bags.

Saagar Enjeti 17:36 Right. And they admitted that-

Krystal Ball 17:37 Was it the-

Joe Rogan 17:37 Shit in bags?

Saagar Enjeti 17:38 Oh.

Krystal Ball 17:38 Literally. Yeah, they literally-

Joe Rogan 17:38 That's where I draw the line. I don't really care if a guy has to pee in a bottle-

Krystal Ball 17:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:42 But if a gal has to pee-

Krystal Ball 17:43 Pee in a bottle. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:44 ... in like a dog bowl-

Saagar Enjeti 17:44 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 17:45 Right. That's sounds bad.

Joe Rogan 17:45 ... I'm like, this seems-

Krystal Ball 17:47 Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing, is like-

Saagar Enjeti 17:49 This seems wrong.

Krystal Ball 17:49 ... I would like to click the button that's like-

Joe Rogan 17:51 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 17:51 ... "I'll pay a little bit more if you can promise me no driver had to shit in a bag in order to get this-"

Joe Rogan 17:56 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 17:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:56 We- We kind of glossed over this thing-

Krystal Ball 17:58 Y-

Joe Rogan 17:58 ... where you said that Jeff Bezos-

Saagar Enjeti 17:59 Oh, right.

Joe Rogan 17:59 ... said that people are lazy.

Krystal Ball 17:59 Yeah, so I got the quote. So, here's, here's what the New York Times says. "Amazon's founder, Jeff Bezos, did not want hourly workers to stick around for long, viewing a large disgruntled workforce as a threat." Um, this other executive requi- recalled, who worked at Amazon, but then left. "Company data showed that most employers became less eager over time," he said, "and Mr. Bevo- Bezos believed people were inherently lazy. What he would say is that our nature as humans is to expend as little energy as possible to get what we want or need. That was embedded throughout the business from the ease of instant ordering to the pervasive use of data to get the most out of employees." So, guaranteed wage increases stop after three years, and Amazon provided incentives for low-skilled employees to leave. So, every year they would offer associates thousands of dollars to resign. They made sure that any position, they gave people sort of the illusion of promotions being available, but then there'd be one promotion available for hundreds of people. And they very seldom, um-... uh, higher or higher management from within their own ranks. It's like, they view a s- th- it's totally class stratified, is basically the bottom line. And of course, lower classes in America are disproportionately Black and brown. It's not like they're specifically targeting Black and brown people. But you have one class of people that they see th- as worthy of doing the grunt work and shitting in the bag, and one class of people that they think of as worthy of, like, actually having the, the more intellectual jobs and running the place. It's, you know, it's a really abhorrent way of viewing human beings, of, essentially. And so, this is part of the kind of, again, rot of America that I also think is reflective with the John Cena, thing, et cetera. It's like, you're certainly more of a capitalist than I am, but you can't have a country where the only fricking value is money.

Joe Rogan 19:40 No.

Krystal Ball 19:41 Like, that's, it's just, it just, you, you see the sickness of people who have all these addictions and are di-... The last year was the worst year on record for overdoses. You see the suicide rates spike. I mean, you see people who just feel like they have no meaning and no purpose and no grounding and no community. And all the life being sucked out of these human beings in these communities, it's just disgusting.

Joe Rogan 20:02 The problem is money's quantifiable.

Saagar Enjeti 20:04 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 20:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:05 And happiness and love and comradery-

Krystal Ball 20:07 It's squishy.

Joe Rogan 20:07 ... and friendship is not.

Krystal Ball 20:08 It's squishy.

Joe Rogan 20:09 It's, it's... You can't put it on a scale. Put that quote back up again. This kind of shit drives me nuts, and I can't believe they actually report this. When it says, "It's been alleged that Bezos has barked out questions like, 'Are you lazy or just incompetent?' at employees and referred to the publishing industry as a sickly gazelle."

Saagar Enjeti 20:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:28 Well, first of all-

Krystal Ball 20:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:29 ... what is, wh- how the fuck does that get printed? "It's been alleged that he's barked out questions." Unless you have a video of him saying that, shut the fuck up.

Saagar Enjeti 20:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:40 Because you, th- that, that kind of shit is nonsense. Like, you can't say it.

Saagar Enjeti 20:43 This is a problem. I actually know Brad Stone-

Krystal Ball 20:44 Well, especially-

Saagar Enjeti 20:44 ... a little bit.

Krystal Ball 20:44 ... especially when you have, when it's not attributed.

Joe Rogan 20:48 Right.

Krystal Ball 20:48 So like, this is different. This is in The New York Times article I was referencing, where they actually, they talked to the workers. They, some of these e- ex-executives who worked with Bezos went on the record, and then you can judge, like, who's telling the truth here.

Joe Rogan 20:59 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 20:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:59 It's-

Krystal Ball 20:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:00 It's just one of those things. Like, uh, look, I'm most certain that that man values money in a very high and probably disproportionate way.

Krystal Ball 21:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:09 There's no way he doesn't.

Saagar Enjeti 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Right? And, and he's not really known to be very charitable, right? Isn't that one of the knocks on him? He doesn't give away a lot of money and-

Saagar Enjeti 21:17 Yeah, but-

Joe Rogan 21:17 The ex is just throwing it around-

Krystal Ball 21:19 Uh-

Joe Rogan 21:19 ... like it's-

Saagar Enjeti 21:19 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 21:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:20 ... a beach ball at a party.

Saagar Enjeti 21:21 I think she just announced another billion.

Joe Rogan 21:22 Look, good for her.

Krystal Ball 21:23 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 21:23 I mean, look, she's worth like 40 billion.

Joe Rogan 21:25 Whatever. She, she, she could keep five stashed away.

Krystal Ball 21:28 Uh, you won't even notice.

Saagar Enjeti 21:29 This is the problem I have though, because, to what Krystal was referencing. And again, look, I'm, I'm more capitalist than Krystal, but I look at what's happening with Bezos and with Amazon and this unionization drive, which there was a recent failed unionization drive at one of their pl- uh, warehouses in Bessemer, Alabama. So, E- Bezos apparent- uh, uh, reportedly got pissed that politicians were shitting on Amazon, and so, I think it was Representative Mark Pocan tweeted out, like, "Amazon workers are peeing in bottles." And Amazon's actual Twitter account was like, "You don't believe the peeing in bottle story, do you?" And he was like, "Yeah, I do." And then all of these former Amazon employees and current started reporting c- official, like, company guidance around peeing and shitting in bags.

Krystal Ball 22:12 Around what to do.

Joe Rogan 22:12 What? There's company guidance? Come on.

Saagar Enjeti 22:14 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 22:14 Yes, yes.

Saagar Enjeti 22:14 And so, yes. And so you can see, you don't really believe in the peeing.

Krystal Ball 22:17 There we go.

Saagar Enjeti 22:17 And then they had to go and correct it, and they were like, "Yeah, actually it's true. Our, some of our workers actually do pee in bottles." And a lot of this comes down to this. Jeff Bezos, his wealth increased by $70 billion, and I've heard Scott Galloway say this.

Joe Rogan 22:32 Let that back go.

Saagar Enjeti 22:32 He's actually... I've actually heard this. Um, which is that-

Joe Rogan 22:36 What is this-

Krystal Ball 22:36 Oh, this is incredible.

Saagar Enjeti 22:37 ... uh, thing?

Joe Rogan 22:38 Oh, yeah. This is another good one. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 22:39 So, they hire, so they recruit people to be fake Amazon employees, and anytime someone tweets something like, you know, what we're talking about here, they'll come in and be like, "I'm an Amazon employee."

Joe Rogan 22:49 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 22:50 Stop, stop.

Krystal Ball 22:50 "Hi, I'm Bob, and I love-"

Joe Rogan 22:50 This is my favorite.

Krystal Ball 22:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:52 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 22:52 Dude Perfect.

Krystal Ball 22:52 "Husband, father, happy Amazon employee."

Joe Rogan 22:55 Oh my God.

Saagar Enjeti 22:55 It's fucking Dude Perfect.

Krystal Ball 22:57 It's Dude Perfect.

Saagar Enjeti 22:57 Yeah, like, every teenage-

Joe Rogan 22:59 Is that a real person?

Saagar Enjeti 22:59 Dude Perfect. He's famous on YouTube.

Krystal Ball 23:00 He's like one of the biggest YouTubers.

Saagar Enjeti 23:02 He likes to throw shit into-

Joe Rogan 23:02 Oh, that's the-

Krystal Ball 23:03 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 23:03 ... like footballs and stuff.

Joe Rogan 23:04 No, I know who those guys are.

Saagar Enjeti 23:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:05 That's him?

Saagar Enjeti 23:06 Yeah, and they used his face.

Joe Rogan 23:06 Oh my God. They used his face?

Krystal Ball 23:08 That, yeah, so they didn't even do a good job-

Joe Rogan 23:10 OK4AT.

Krystal Ball 23:11 ... with their troll operations.

Saagar Enjeti 23:13 Oh, happy Amazon employee. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:14 That's so crazy.

Krystal Ball 23:16 Oh, it's a mess. Good times.

Saagar Enjeti 23:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:16 But how do you know... But hold up.

Saagar Enjeti 23:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:18 Just to be cynical-

Saagar Enjeti 23:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:19 How do you not know that this was someone who hates Amazon who does this as an obvious goof?

Saagar Enjeti 23:24 So-

Joe Rogan 23:24 So that, that-

Krystal Ball 23:25 No, but they've-

Joe Rogan 23:26 But you know what I'm saying?

Krystal Ball 23:26 Yeah, so the-

Joe Rogan 23:27 Like they're playing 3D chess.

Krystal Ball 23:28 The documents... Ken Klippenstein, amazing journalist-

Joe Rogan 23:30 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 23:31 ... who, who, one of the reasons why he gets these stories is 'cause he reaches down to the rank and file instead of the execs. He had leaked to him the guidelines and the protocols of how to be an Amazon bot on Twitter, basically.

Joe Rogan 23:44 Oh, Jesus.

Krystal Ball 23:44 Like how to set up your handle, the types of things to say, what things not to engage with.

Joe Rogan 23:48 Do you remember when Howard Stern got busted doing that?

Saagar Enjeti 23:50 Did he?

Krystal Ball 23:51 No.

Saagar Enjeti 23:51 I didn't know this.

Krystal Ball 23:51 I don't remember that.

Joe Rogan 23:51 Yeah, there was a, there was a conference. He had a conference for all of his employees, and there's a video that got leaked that's showing him telling all the employees-

Krystal Ball 23:59 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 24:00 ... to make fake accounts and then tweet at celebrities that they, you wanna-

Krystal Ball 24:04 You don't-

Joe Rogan 24:04 ... be on Howard Stern.

Saagar Enjeti 24:05 That is so unbelievably creepy.

Krystal Ball 24:06 You don't have your, you don't have your employees do that?

Joe Rogan 24:07 I do. That's why I'm covering up right now.

Saagar Enjeti 24:08 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 24:09 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 24:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:09 I'm throwing him under the bus 'cause I'm guilty of the same thing.

Krystal Ball 24:11 I thought that was common protocol.

Joe Rogan 24:12 No, I've never, I've never even advertised this show. It's one of the things that I've, I'm very happy about.

Saagar Enjeti 24:16 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 24:16 So I've, I do have one more Amazon anecdote for you that Saagar was referencing. So they've started... You know how Wayfair and other companies, they'll do like, um, delivery and they'll assemble your shit for you, your furniture or whatever?

Joe Rogan 24:28 Okay.

Krystal Ball 24:28 So Amazon's trying to compete with them, and they're just taking the normal drivers. They're not giving them any training in furniture assembly. Like this isn't their specialty or whatever, and they're just like, "Now do this also." And they give them these specific time limits for how long it's supposed to take them to assemble these various pieces of furniture. Now you're maybe good at this stuff. I'm definitely not that good at that stuff. Um, I don't think Saagar's pretty good.

Saagar Enjeti 24:51 Terrible.

Krystal Ball 24:52 So anyway-... here's the allotments. Amazon allotted 11 minutes and 15 seconds for two drivers to transport a 59-part ottoman to a customer's room of choice, unpack and assemble it, according to one schedule. And this is, like, typical of the type of timing, and it, and it's not like there's no consequence if you don't meet that timeline. If you don't meet that timeline routinely, you're fired. So, this is the type of demands that they put on workers that are just completely unrealistic.

Saagar Enjeti 25:20 So when the... I don't even remember what an ottoman is. It's like drawers and stuff?

Krystal Ball 25:23 It's like-

Saagar Enjeti 25:24 I think it's the thing-

Krystal Ball 25:24 ... uh, the thing that you put your feet on.

Saagar Enjeti 25:25 ... like your feet on. Oh, okay.

Krystal Ball 25:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 25:26 Also, a 59-part ottoman-

Krystal Ball 25:28 59-piece.

Saagar Enjeti 25:28 That does sound really crazy.

Krystal Ball 25:28 It seems like a very elaborate ottoman, but to put it together in 11 minutes-

Saagar Enjeti 25:32 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 25:33 ... and unpack it and deliver it and all that is crazy.

Saagar Enjeti 25:35 Yeah, it's nuts. But what is, um... How do you put it together? I'm a little confused. I think the guys, what they do is they drop it off and then they unbox it and put it all together for you. Like, you can pay like $60 extra. Right. I've done this before for some pleasure. So just put the legs on it? It's obviously- Well, actually, I don't- ... you just put the legs on.

Krystal Ball 25:48 59-pieces-

Saagar Enjeti 25:49 There was a photo on that one.

Krystal Ball 25:50 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 25:50 I'm not sure, Jamie, if you can find it. Yeah. But when you say 59 pieces, how many of them are screws? Yeah, that's a good point.

Krystal Ball 25:54 I have no idea.

Saagar Enjeti 25:55 You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Krystal Ball 25:56 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 25:56 It's a good question. But still-

Krystal Ball 25:57 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 25:57 Yeah. ... 11 minutes is ridiculous. Yeah.

Krystal Ball 25:58 Crazy.

Saagar Enjeti 25:59 Right. That's ridiculous.

Krystal Ball 25:59 They have some other examples here too.

Saagar Enjeti 26:01 Get out of the car, unbox it- 11 minutes- ... where you want it, bring it into a house-

Krystal Ball 26:04 Seven... Here's another one.

Saagar Enjeti 26:04 Yeah. ... is ridiculous.

Krystal Ball 26:04 Seven minutes to deliver and assemble a 234-pound dining table is another example. 44 seconds... (laughs) 3 minutes and 44 seconds for drivers to transport, so they have to bring this mattress there, bring it to the customer's room of choice, unpack it, and install it. Mattress that weighs 104 pounds. So-

Saagar Enjeti 26:24 How many minutes you get for that?

Krystal Ball 26:25 Three minutes.

Saagar Enjeti 26:27 That's crazy. Yeah.

Krystal Ball 26:28 Crazy, yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 26:29 Right. How about... What if it's a big house? Yeah. What if they have stairs?

Krystal Ball 26:31 Then you're fucked.

Saagar Enjeti 26:32 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 26:32 Then you're fired.

Saagar Enjeti 26:33 Then you're fired.

Krystal Ball 26:33 Then you're shitting in a bag-

Saagar Enjeti 26:34 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 26:34 ... so that you can make it-

Saagar Enjeti 26:35 Right.

Krystal Ball 26:35 ... to the next one. I mean, seriously.

Saagar Enjeti 26:36 Now, here's the thing-

Krystal Ball 26:37 That's what it is.

Saagar Enjeti 26:37 ... that Amazon... What I wanted you to get into is- Mm-hmm. ... the fact that they get timed, like say if they have... someone orders something- Yes.

Krystal Ball 26:42 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 26:43 ... you have to, they have to get... It's like someone orders a bicycle pump. You have to get to that bicycle pump-

Krystal Ball 26:48 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 26:48 ... and put it in a box- That's right. ... and give it. That's right.

Krystal Ball 26:49 And they track-

Saagar Enjeti 26:49 And they track that.

Krystal Ball 26:50 All of your movements.

Saagar Enjeti 26:52 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 26:52 All of that is tracked.

Saagar Enjeti 26:53 Well-

Krystal Ball 26:53 And, and if you don't make it, it's not like a human being even bothers to tell you you're fired.

Saagar Enjeti 26:58 Well, so-

Krystal Ball 26:58 You just get a notification on your fucking tracker.

Saagar Enjeti 27:00 Right. Mm-hmm. So what is the, the solution to something like that? It seems like when you start putting money as the most important thing, above the, the health and the happiness of the people that work for you-

Krystal Ball 27:10 Yeah. That's a great question.

Saagar Enjeti 27:11 Like, what is the solution? And is the problem stockholders? Is the problem the fact that this is a private comp- or public company rather, and so there's a lot of different people that get a chance to... They, they, they have a say because the ultimate duty is to make sure that the company continues to make more money-

Krystal Ball 27:27 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 27:27 ... every year. No one's happy with just things-

Krystal Ball 27:29 No one's satisfied.

Saagar Enjeti 27:30 ... being flat. They're doing their job.

Krystal Ball 27:31 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 27:31 Yeah. Here's the problem. We actually solved this over 100 years ago. They're called unions. And this is something that Krystal and I- Yeah. ... I definitely depart from a lot of my conservative friends on this, which is that if you really think about it, a union is a very inherently conservative organization. It's a non-governmental institution of people who band together and then use their collective power in negotiation with management. Now, the problem though right here with Amazon is Amazon is virulently anti-union. They will basically do anything they possibly... And this isn't... basically an official Bezos policy. Like, "We will not negotiate on unions." They threw everything they possibly could at the Bessemer election. And look, I mean, they did win, and that's... The reason why they wa- they raised their wage to, like, $15 an hour, or I think it's $17 an hour now, and they're like, "We have the best healthcare," and all of this, is because it's basically like, "You're gonna get this, but don't you goddamn dare unionize." And it's not just Amazon. Walmart, I think, um, just recently gave... They said they're gonna give all of their employees a free Samsung phone, but it's like 729,000 employees. And buried within the stuff is that you're gonna be tracked, like, when you get that phone. Like, now the phone is with you, and that's the company phone. And the company phone is gonna collect, like, all of this data, exactly as you're talking about. "You only have 15 seconds in order to go and get this and place it into the bin, which is the average time. And oh, you have sciatica? Fuck you. Oh, you have... your leg is broken or, like, you're in a boot or something because you were injured on the job? Fuck you." I once read this Daily Beast story, which was horrific, where it aggregated, like a FOIA thing, of all of the suicide calls-

Krystal Ball 29:05 Hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 29:05 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 29:05 Ugh.

Saagar Enjeti 29:05 ... from Amazon warehouses. So it's like, "We got another one over here at the plant." They're like, "We got another one." They're like, "Ope, you know, somebody just jumped." They're like, "Ah, this guy's, you know, he's saying..." Now, look, a lot of people work in Amazon plants, so it's not like... There's a law of numbers and stuff here. And I'm not just singling out Amazon because actually, like I was explaining, it's... They're the top of the labor market. So like, the problem with our labor market is that our current workforce does not have enough power to negotiate with the shareholder class. We solved this in the 1920s and '30s. Like, we had a whole fight about this in our politics around unions and worker power and wages. And I mean, I saw, um, I saw a politician, I can't even remember who it was, talking about this with relation to Uber, where they're like, "Well, you know, they, they, they can just go, and they can leave if they have... if they can just leave and go work somewhere else." But in many cases, like I'm explaining with Amazon, if you work in a town where the only thing you can do is work at the warehouse, you don't have a lot of power.

Krystal Ball 30:02 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 30:02 And so, we have to go back to a scenario where workers have some power in negotiation. Look, I think shareholder capitalism has run amok. We have a lot of problems. That being said, there's a lot, obviously, to the engine of why we are the preeminent world economy and the preeminent society. The problem is that it's become unchecked, is that basically 1975, 1980s and so onward, the shareholder march, that's what led us to the China problem. These are the... Wall Street and the shareholder class are the ones, they knew that it was gonna screw working class jobs here in the US. They're the ones who pushed for more free trade with China, and then the political class are the ones who said, "Not only is shit gonna be cheaper," 'cause that was the trade-off. They were like, "Shit's gonna be cheaper in America." Congratulations, it's all cheaper. We also lost our entire middle class, especially in the industrial Midwest. But China's gonna become more liberal and free and open. And that was a total failure. Instead, we have imported Chinese autocracy to our country. Fucking John Cena, LeBron James, and James Harden are on the side of the CCP over their own citizens. Shaq is the only guy who spoke up for Daryl Morey-

Krystal Ball 31:11 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 31:11 ... whenever it came to... Shaq-

Krystal Ball 31:13 I love Shaq.

Saagar Enjeti 31:13 ... who was like the face of America, you know? It's like, it's totally crazy.

Krystal Ball 31:17 The Chinese, the Chinese understand us better than we do in some ways.

Saagar Enjeti 31:20 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 31:20 Because they, they get that, like, money is the weak spot, and so you ask what the answer is. I mean, look, it's, it's not straightforward, but basically there's two pieces. There's a policy piece that Saagar's talking about, you know, giving workers, rebalancing the scales. There used to be a balance on the scales where workers... they had more power within the workplace. You had, um, fewer of these gigantic firms that just controlled the entire market. So there's a, there's a policy piece here that's extraordinarily important. There's also a societal choice. Like, do we want to put-... cheaper, cheaper, cheaper as the only thing that we care about, right? It is that fundamental choice of, like, if you can click the button on Amazon that's like, "I'll pay a little more," or, "I'll wait, like, an extra half a day for the worker to be able to feed their family and, like, live a decent life-"

Joe Rogan 32:04 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 32:04 "... and not have to shit in a bag," do we want to make that choice? Because right now, the whole structure of society is basically set up to cater to, frankly, people like us who are doing well and we want to have everything at our fingertips, as cheap as possible, as soon as possible, every experience, et cetera, et cetera. And it's become wildly unbalanced so that if not a majority, close to a majority of the population, it- it really is very hard to live. Um, housing prices are going insanely up, so the idea of a working-class family affording a home anywhere in America is just wildly out of reach. That's the one way that you can basically build wealth in America. You have no choice in terms of employers, so if you hate Amazon or they fire you or whatever, you're fucked because there's nothing else in your town because everything's else been sucked out to China-

Joe Rogan 32:51 Especially during the co- the coronavirus pandemic.

Saagar Enjeti 32:53 Yes!

Krystal Ball 32:53 Oh, absolutely! It was a disaster.

Saagar Enjeti 32:53 And they're the only ones hiring.

Joe Rogan 32:55 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 32:55 A disaster.

Joe Rogan 32:56 So many businesses are gone and so many big corporations have gotten bigger.

Krystal Ball 32:59 100%. And this was-

Joe Rogan 33:01 It's really scary.

Krystal Ball 33:01 ... so predi- You, I mean, we all saw this-

Joe Rogan 33:04 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 33:04 ... coming at the very beginning. We knew it was gonna b- be a bonanza for the people who already had everything.

Joe Rogan 33:10 But it's not just-

Krystal Ball 33:11 And that's exactly what happened.

Joe Rogan 33:11 I don't think it's just us.

Saagar Enjeti 33:13 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 33:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:13 I think they knew it too.

Saagar Enjeti 33:15 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 33:15 100%.

Joe Rogan 33:15 This is one of the reasons why the really skeptical people, the people that are very cynical about things, think that some of the lockdown was on purpose.

Saagar Enjeti 33:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:24 And that what people were trying to do was trying to accentuate the power that these big corporations had. It's a-

Krystal Ball 33:32 See, I think it's more of a failure. I- I- I dissent in that I think we needed to make sure we got the virus under control and all those things. But at the beginning, there was a false choice that was made.

Joe Rogan 33:43 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 33:43 There was this false choice where they said, "Well, you can either have your job or you can have lockdown." Well, we didn't have to do it that way. There was a- a possibility of just, "Hey, listen. Backstop people's payrolls, keep them attached to their jobs." We- if we had done that from the beginning-

Joe Rogan 33:56 Yeah, but this-

Krystal Ball 33:56 ... we would have spent so-

Saagar Enjeti 33:56 Oh, yeah.

Krystal Ball 33:57 ... much less money than we ultimately spent.

Joe Rogan 33:58 That's part of the problem, but the other problem was essential businesses.

Saagar Enjeti 34:01 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 34:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:01 Deciding which businesses are essential, deciding that Walmart-

Krystal Ball 34:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:04 ... is essential, but a small restaurant is not.

Saagar Enjeti 34:06 Correct.

Krystal Ball 34:06 Oh, it's very-

Joe Rogan 34:07 That kind of shit is crazy.

Krystal Ball 34:07 ... it was wildly arbitrary. It's because the Walmarts of the world have power.

Joe Rogan 34:11 Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

Krystal Ball 34:12 Yeah. That's what it was.

Joe Rogan 34:13 And that they knew-

Krystal Ball 34:14 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 34:14 ... they had to know that some of this was going to result in businesses going under and that was gonna r- result in their market share growing.

Krystal Ball 34:22 A- absolutely. Absolutely.

Saagar Enjeti 34:23 Oh, and they, and they-

Joe Rogan 34:23 That's where people are cynical-

Saagar Enjeti 34:25 I know.

Joe Rogan 34:25 ... and conspiracy minded. They look at this and they say, "This is almost like a calculated attack."

Saagar Enjeti 34:30 I wish it was calculated. I think it's worse. I think that-

Joe Rogan 34:33 It's incompetence.

Saagar Enjeti 34:33 ... it was Trump and it was culture war. It became... Becoming pro-lockdown, became... So, we live in DC. We had, like, we had the highest mask compliance in the country and our city was crazy. It wa- until Fauci came out and said that you can't, you can wear a mask outside, don't have to wear a mask outside, everyone was double masking in my neighborhood. I live, I live in, like, the heart of white liberal America. And what's really has happened is that people's brains rotted under Trump. And so when Trump was anti-lockdown, short circuit, it's over. There's no discussion.

Joe Rogan 35:05 That's the Wuhan lab leak.

Saagar Enjeti 35:06 Ex- exactly-

Krystal Ball 35:08 You, that-

Saagar Enjeti 35:08 ... the same thing.

Krystal Ball 35:09 ... 100%.

Joe Rogan 35:10 100%. 100%.

Saagar Enjeti 35:10 He said, "If Trump says it, it's f- it's f-"

Krystal Ball 35:12 It must be false.

Saagar Enjeti 35:12 "Lockdown? Bullshit."

Joe Rogan 35:13 Did you guys see the Jon Stewart rant?

Saagar Enjeti 35:16 We just saw it this morning.

Krystal Ball 35:17 We were just-

Joe Rogan 35:17 Fucking brilliant.

Krystal Ball 35:19 ... like, "Wait, I haven't seen it yet."

Joe Rogan 35:20 Fucking play it.

Krystal Ball 35:20 "Sorry, I thought I had seen it." I wanna see it.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Play it on, uh, Stephen Colbert.

Saagar Enjeti 35:22 I literally just saw it this morning. Right.

Joe Rogan 35:24 It's fuck- and Colbert tries to jump in-

Saagar Enjeti 35:27 I know. I know.

Joe Rogan 35:27 ... and stop him.

Saagar Enjeti 35:27 "He's a huge lib now! That's his whole thing."

Joe Rogan 35:29 And he plows over him. Colbert was a Catholic.

Saagar Enjeti 35:31 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 35:31 Oh, Colbert used to be so good. The old show-

Joe Rogan 35:33 Yeah!

Krystal Ball 35:34 ... was-

Joe Rogan 35:34 Well, because he was a parody.

Krystal Ball 35:35 ... brilliant.

Joe Rogan 35:36 And now he's the real person.

Krystal Ball 35:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:38 But anyway.

Saagar Enjeti 35:38 He's like this pure Biden lib. Like, what happened to you?

Krystal Ball 35:41 Ugh, it's sad.

Joe Rogan 35:41 It's yuck.

Saagar Enjeti 35:41 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 35:41 It makes me really sad.

Joe Rogan 35:42 It's yuck.

Saagar Enjeti 35:43 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 35:43 Yes, indeed.

Joe Rogan 35:43 But, but listen, this is a big part of the problem with Hollywood in general, is that you really can't stray outside of the ideology. You have one ideology and that ideology is, it's crippling the entire city of Hollywood. Let- let's hear, let's hear this because when Jon Stewart goes off, it's fucking genius.

Saagar Enjeti 36:00 Oh, yes.

Krystal Ball 36:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:00 And he's saying what everyone has been saying-

Saagar Enjeti 36:03 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 36:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:03 ... but he did it in a brilliantly comedic fashion. And because-

Saagar Enjeti 36:08 This guy's a genius, Jon Stewart, honestly.

Joe Rogan 36:09 He's a gen- he's such a fucking great guy. And because he's the guy from The Daily Show and because everyone knows he's progressive-

Saagar Enjeti 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:16 ... and always has been, you know, he's like, he is the perfect guy to get this out.

Krystal Ball 36:21 But you know, before we play this, the thing about him is yes, he's always progressive, but he was always willing to take shots-

Joe Rogan 36:28 Yes.

Krystal Ball 36:28 ... and call out hypocrisy-

Joe Rogan 36:29 Yes.

Krystal Ball 36:29 ... wherever he saw it. So you knew where he was, what his ideology was, but he did not pull punches.

Joe Rogan 36:34 No, well-

Krystal Ball 36:34 And that was why people loved him.

Joe Rogan 36:36 It also made his points on the right much more valid-

Saagar Enjeti 36:40 Yes.

Krystal Ball 36:40 Yes.

Joe Rogan 36:40 ... because you knew he was taking shots at the left too.

Krystal Ball 36:42 100%.

Joe Rogan 36:42 That's what people don't understand at CNN. If you only attack the people that are on the right-

Krystal Ball 36:47 Right. If the end of-

Joe Rogan 36:48 ... no one listens to you.

Krystal Ball 36:49 If the moral of every single story is Trump is bad-

Joe Rogan 36:52 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 36:52 ... like it's some, certainly at some point he did something that was-

Joe Rogan 36:56 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 36:56 ... worthy of praise, right? Yeah. It's just-

Joe Rogan 36:59 Well-

Krystal Ball 36:59 And Fox News is the same thing.

Joe Rogan 37:00 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 37:00 Same thing.

Krystal Ball 37:00 I mean, the moral of every story is Democrats are destroying the country. It's like, "Why are we even watching this? It's so boring."

Joe Rogan 37:04 Well, they exist in sound bites.

Saagar Enjeti 37:06 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 37:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:06 They exist in sound bites and they don't understand that people view them as a whole. So people view-

Krystal Ball 37:10 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:10 ... everything that they say and they don't understand that when you do that over and over again, people get cynical.

Krystal Ball 37:14 It's like, "We see your game here."

Joe Rogan 37:16 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 37:16 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 37:16 "This is like the most obvious thing ever."

Joe Rogan 37:17 Play... Let's, let's play this because it's so goddamn good. (audience cheering) Let's scoot a little in there.

Saagar Enjeti 37:22 Well, this is it.

Joe Rogan 37:23 Yeah.

Narrator 37:23 And I'm not gonna get COVID, but-

Joe Rogan 37:24 Here.

Narrator 37:25 ... I'm gonna get something. (audience laughing) Um, uh, I- I'm... Honestly, these people did not take good care of themselves during the pandemic. (audience laughing)

37:33 Last time, well actually the first time we talked during-

37:36 Yeah.

37:36 ... COVID, I was still in South Carolina. And-

37:40 That's right. You were, you were locked down.

37:41 I was locked down down there and the family, Evy and the kids were the actual crew for me.

37:46 That's right.

37:47 And that's how we were doing it. We were doing it in a little unused-

Joe Rogan 37:48 Scoot up a little. Scoot, scoot forward a little bit.

Narrator 37:50 ... little beds with tables through the... Wash your hands.

37:51 It was so cool, so I will say this.

37:56 I b- I, and I honestly mean this. I think we owe a great debt of gratitude to science.

Krystal Ball 38:04 Oh, yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 38:04 This is it.

Narrator 38:05 Science has, in many ways, helped ease, uh, the suffering of this pandemic, uh, uh, which was m- more than likely caused by science.

Joe Rogan 38:16 (laughs)

Narrator 38:18 (laughs)

38:18 Ugh.

Saagar Enjeti 38:18 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 38:19 Look at Colbert sitting back.

Narrator 38:20 Yeah. (laughs)

Krystal Ball 38:21 (applause)

Narrator 38:21 He's like, "No! No!"

38:23 Uh-oh, uh-oh.

Joe Rogan 38:23 Cut!

Narrator 38:24 And that's kind of-

Saagar Enjeti 38:25 Hold on one second.

Narrator 38:27 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

38:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:29 Is he doing a spit take?

Narrator 38:30 Listen. Listen.

Saagar Enjeti 38:31 Yeah. It's coffee. I wouldn't do that to you.

Narrator 38:33 I'm over-

Saagar Enjeti 38:33 I wouldn't do that to you.

Narrator 38:34 I'm over spit takes, but-

Saagar Enjeti 38:35 But what do you- what- what- what- what do you mean by that? Do you mean like that this, or perhaps-

Narrator 38:37 Well, so here's-

Saagar Enjeti 38:38 ... this, there's a, there was a chance that this was created in a lab, there's an investigation.

Joe Rogan 38:40 A chance?

Narrator 38:42 A chance?

Saagar Enjeti 38:42 Well, but-

Narrator 38:42 I'm ...

Saagar Enjeti 38:42 So I, I, I, I, I if there was evidence, I'd love to hear it. I just don't know.

Narrator 38:46 Uh, is there evidence?

38:47 There is a novel respiratory coronavirus overtaking Wuhan, China. What do we do? Oh, you know who we could ask? The Wuhan novel respiratory coronavirus lab.

Joe Rogan 38:58 (laughs)

Narrator 38:58 The disease is the same name as the lab.

39:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:03 (laughs)

Narrator 39:03 That's just, that's just a little too weird, don't you think? And then they ask those scientists, they're like, "How did this ... So wait a minute. You work at the Wuhan respiratory coronavirus lab. How did this happen?" And they're like, "Mm, a pangolin kissed a turtle."

Joe Rogan 39:16 (laughs)

Narrator 39:18 (laughs)

39:18 (laughs)

39:18 And you're like, "No!" I ... You-

Saagar Enjeti 39:20 Oh, wait a second.

Narrator 39:20 (laughs)

39:20 The name of your lab, if you look at the name-

39:23 (laughs)

39:24 Look at the name. Can I... Let me see your business card. Show me your Business card. Oh, "I work at the Coronavirus Lab in Wuhan." "Oh, 'cause there's a coronavirus loose in Wuhan. How did that happen?" "Maybe a bat flew into the cloaca of a turkey."

39:45 (laughs)

39:45 "And then it sneezed into my chili and now we all have corona." Like, come on.

Saagar Enjeti 39:51 Okay, wait a second.

Narrator 39:52 Okay. Okay.

Saagar Enjeti 39:53 Wait a second, wait a second.

Narrator 39:53 What about this? What about this?

Saagar Enjeti 39:55 Wait a second.

Narrator 39:55 Listen to this.

Saagar Enjeti 39:55 Wait a second.

Joe Rogan 39:56 Colbert, get out of the fucking way. Let him rant.

Narrator 39:59 Oh, my God. Oh, my God. There's been an outbreak of chocolatey goodness near Hershey, Pennsylvania.

40:05 (laughs)

40:05 What do you think happened? They're like, "Oh, I don't know. Maybe a s- steam shovel mated with a cocoa bean."

40:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:12 (laughs)

Narrator 40:12 (laughs)

40:13 Or it's the (beep) chocolate factory.

40:16 (laughs)

40:16 Maybe that's it.

Saagar Enjeti 40:17 That could be.

Narrator 40:19 (applause)

Saagar Enjeti 40:20 That could be.

Narrator 40:23 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:23 He's so uncomfortable.

Saagar Enjeti 40:26 That, that could be. Let me-

Narrator 40:27 By the way, I gave them all tuberculosis just kidding.

Saagar Enjeti 40:30 Yes.

Narrator 40:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 40:31 That could, that could very well be, and Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins and-

Joe Rogan 40:35 Just stop. Yeah. I don't wanna hear that guy.

Narrator 40:37 Oh, uh, was he gonna, like, cover for-

Joe Rogan 40:39 Yeah.

Narrator 40:39 I think Fauci's looking into it now.

Joe Rogan 40:41 Yeah. Just stop.

Saagar Enjeti 40:41 Oh, now he's looking into it.

Narrator 40:42 Oh. Yeah, now he's looking into it.

Joe Rogan 40:43 Stop. But that was the other thing that's crazy, the differences between the way people on the right and the left were looking at those emails.

Saagar Enjeti 40:50 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 40:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 40:50 The Fauci emails that got leaked.

Krystal Ball 40:51 That's such a great point.

Joe Rogan 40:52 That so many people were saying, like, the fact that what hellscape world we live in where anyone could look at those emails and think that Fauci is a, is a villain is so insane and shows you where we're at right now. Like-

Saagar Enjeti 41:05 Um ...

Krystal Ball 41:06 Ah.

Joe Rogan 41:06 Hold the fuck on.

Saagar Enjeti 41:07 Yeah, uh-

Krystal Ball 41:07 Well-

Joe Rogan 41:07 You've got, you've, you've got emails where this guy is saying that masks don't work.

Saagar Enjeti 41:11 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 41:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 41:12 You've got emails-

Saagar Enjeti 41:13 In February, right? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:13 Aft- yes, while he's been telling everybody you have to mask up. You've got emails where he's saying, "Hey, um, is this coming from a lab?"

Saagar Enjeti 41:21 Yeah, right.

Joe Rogan 41:21 Like, he's talking to people-

Krystal Ball 41:22 And here's the thing is, like, no one is above reproach, right? And the minute that you buy into this, like, great man theory, it leads to some fucking ugly places. Fauci just recently went on MSNBC, did you see this, and was like-

Joe Rogan 41:38 You're attacking science.

Krystal Ball 41:38 ... criticizing, "Criticizing me is the same as attacking science."

Joe Rogan 41:44 I think, I think he even used the third person.

Saagar Enjeti 41:45 Yeah, right.

Krystal Ball 41:45 Yeah, criticizing, well, criticizing-

Saagar Enjeti 41:47 Oh, criticizing Dr. Fauci, right.

Joe Rogan 41:49 Dr. Fauci is the same as criticizing science.

Saagar Enjeti 41:53 Yes.

Krystal Ball 41:53 Like, what ... No. And the reality, of course, is that as it looks increasingly likely that the lab leak theory was correct, asking those questions isn't harming sci- that's bolstering science.

Joe Rogan 42:06 Uh-huh. Well, there was-

Krystal Ball 42:06 That's bolstering the ques- the neutral quest for truth. That's all any of us are talking about here.

Joe Rogan 42:12 And there was a scientist in the emails-

Saagar Enjeti 42:14 Yep.

Joe Rogan 42:14 ... that was reaching out to him saying, "When you examine this closely, there's aspects of this virus that seem to be engineered."

Krystal Ball 42:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 42:21 That same scientist-

Saagar Enjeti 42:22 Inconsistent with evolutionary theory.

Joe Rogan 42:23 They communicated, then that same scientist changed his tune-

Krystal Ball 42:27 Oh.

Joe Rogan 42:27 ... publicly, then when all the emails came out, deleted his Twitter account.

Krystal Ball 42:31 Whoa.

Joe Rogan 42:32 And now he's moving to the moon.

Krystal Ball 42:33 Whoa.

Saagar Enjeti 42:33 And what's even worse, Joe, is he was actually the person who ring, who was the ringleader of the Nature magazine piece, I think it was March of 2020, saying that coronavirus definitively did not come from the lab.

Joe Rogan 42:44 That's so crazy.

Saagar Enjeti 42:44 So on January 31st, 2020, sends Fauci an email saying that the coronavirus genome is not consistent with evolutionary theory, AKA fucking manmade. Okay?

Joe Rogan 42:53 I didn't-

Saagar Enjeti 42:54 AKA fucking manmade.

Joe Rogan 42:55 I didn't get freaked out until the guy from the WHO would not say Taiwan.

Saagar Enjeti 42:59 Yes.

Krystal Ball 43:00 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 43:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:00 Remember that?

Krystal Ball 43:01 Yes. Yeah, that was early on.

Joe Rogan 43:02 Remember he, he clicks off-

Saagar Enjeti 43:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:03 That's when I got freaked out. I was like, "What the fuck is going on?" 'Cause when, when you won't even say the name of a country because you're worried about offending China and we're supposed to believe that these people are completely unbiased-

Krystal Ball 43:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 43:16 I was like, I got scared.

Krystal Ball 43:17 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 43:17 Well-

Joe Rogan 43:17 I was like, this is crazy. We're not getting all the information. There's no way we are.

Saagar Enjeti 43:20 And it's not just China. And this is the theory about, the thing about the lab leak and why I actually wanna de-culture it. You had Josh Rogan on-

Joe Rogan 43:25 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 43:25 And he did some amazing job with this.

Krystal Ball 43:26 He does a really good job, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:27 That guy's amazing.

Saagar Enjeti 43:28 What he, what he w- expertly shows is if this is true, the lab leak hypothesis is true, yes, the Chinese covered it up. Guess what? The Chinese are liars and they covered up SARS and they've covered up basically everything that's come out of their country for the last, like, 30 years. That's not a shocker. The shocker is Dr. Anthony Fauci, 2017, reverses the ban on gain-of-function research, directs this funding to EcoHealth Alliance, Dr. Peter Daszak, who then gives it to the Wuhan Institute of Virology for the study of novel bat coronaviruses. And then when the pandemic turns around, we take Dr. Peter Daszak as the only American to join the W- W- World Health Organization's investigation team-

Krystal Ball 44:06 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 44:06 ... into whether coronavirus leaked from a lab. And on 60 Minutes, I, I forget who was interviewing him, she goes, "Well, wait. So d- how did you verify it? Did you just ask them?" And he goes, "Well, what else can we do?" 'Cause he's also half British. And that's how he said, he goes, "Well, uh, what else can we do? Oh, uh, we could read emails. We could also see that D- Peter Daszak-"... as of two days ago, has been caught lying. He said there were no live bats-

Joe Rogan 44:31 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 44:31 ... inside-

Krystal Ball 44:32 Mm-hmm.

Saagar Enjeti 44:32 ... of the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Sky News Australia just revealed 2017 video that bats were present inside the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and the deputy director says, "Before this, China had no experience in BSL-4 laborat-" That's the highest level of safety for a laboratory. But, "We have been here..." And I, I, don't forget, I don't wanna mis- misquote him. But he said something along the lines of creating new viruses, synthesizing new viruses. And what Fauci and Dr. Shi, who is the head of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, they're playing fucking games. Fauci and Rand Paul, when Rand Paul was pressing him, he was like, "We did not fund gain-of-function research." He's trying to define it as explicitly what he wa- what is on the record as him funding. Dr. Shi is the same thing. "We were not doing gain-of-function research-"

Krystal Ball 45:21 So, this is actually-

Saagar Enjeti 45:22 "... here at the lab."

Krystal Ball 45:22 ... this is actually ... This is amazing.

Saagar Enjeti 45:24 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 45:24 I don't know if you caught. She d- did an email interview with the New York Times-

Saagar Enjeti 45:28 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 45:28 ... which was mostly, I mean, it was just, you know-

Saagar Enjeti 45:29 It's bullshit, yeah.

Krystal Ball 45:30 ... the standard, like, state party line from China. But they asked her about gain-of-function research. And I'm sure your listeners mostly know, know that gain-of-function research is basically modifying these to see what ... How can we make these pathogens more dangerous, right? And it's very ... It's in and of itself very dangerous, because these things do leak from labs, um, relatively routinely. And she says, "We were not doing gain-of-function research, because what we were doing wasn't making it more virulent or dangerous. It was seeing if it could jump from species to species." I'm sorry. Isn't that, like, the definition of making it more dangerous for us?

Saagar Enjeti 46:08 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 46:08 Seeing if you can make it jump into our species? Like, that seems like that's pretty dangerous. So-

Saagar Enjeti 46:13 So how does Fauci-

Krystal Ball 46:13 ... they're trying to play these games, saying it's not technically-

Joe Rogan 46:15 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 46:15 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 46:15 ... gain-of-function research.

Joe Rogan 46:15 How does Fauci get away with standing there under oath and saying-

Saagar Enjeti 46:20 Media, right?

Krystal Ball 46:21 100%.

Saagar Enjeti 46:21 It's m- It's all media pressure-

Krystal Ball 46:22 Well-

Saagar Enjeti 46:22 Which is, he's the god.

Krystal Ball 46:23 It's the, it's the anti-Trump derangement sem- syndrome, right? Fauci was put up as, like, the anti-Trump guy, and he became this liberal icon. I mean, there are these signs (laughs) in Washington, DC, in people's yards ... I don't know if you have them here, but-

Joe Rogan 46:38 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 46:38 ... it's literally his face on a sign, and like, "Thank you, Dr. Fauci."

Saagar Enjeti 46:43 "Thank you, Dr. Fauci."

Joe Rogan 46:43 Jesus.

Saagar Enjeti 46:44 This is what we're dealing with, Joe.

Krystal Ball 46:45 That's the level-

Saagar Enjeti 46:45 This is what we're dealing with.

Narrator 46:46 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:46 These people are terrifying.

Krystal Ball 46:47 That's the level of hero worship, right? And again, no one is above reproach. Every human being is flawed, and especially when you're in that kind of position of power and you have certain incentives, like, you have to ask questions about these things. But there was another element, too. And this was, frankly, in- an ingenious play by the media and the scientific community, is, not only was it, oh, Trump and his band of wackos are the ones that are promoting this theory, but also tha- this, this theory is somehow racist.

Saagar Enjeti 47:14 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 47:15 And the moment that the lab leak theory was pegged as racist, that's when it really became toxic for anyone in the mainstream to ask questions about, because you don't want to be pegged as, like, oh, well, you're just pursuing this racist conspiracy theory. And my thought has always been, from the beginning, like, first of all, we just need the answer, like, neutrally to look at what actually happened here. But second of all, if we're playing the which-is-more-racist game, it seemed way worse to me when people were like, "Ew, Chinese people eat bats, and that's disgusting, and they're so weird, and that's how we all got this pandemic." That seemed, to me, way more problematic than the idea that a lab that, by the way, the USA is funding, that something leaked accidentally from that lab. So, that was really the thing that put this all off the table, was this strategic weaponization of, you know, what is a very real problem of, of alleging racism.

Saagar Enjeti 48:06 It's the scientific community teamed up with the ... Well, basically, they got the luckiest fucking break of their lives that Trump was president, because-

Krystal Ball 48:12 Yeah, that's true.

Saagar Enjeti 48:12 ... they teamed up with the media-

Krystal Ball 48:14 That is true.

Saagar Enjeti 48:14 ... and they made it so that it was racist to question. Even recently, the lead New York Times reporter on COVID tweeted and then deleted, "Are we ever going ... Someday we will acknowledge the racist origins of the lab leak theory." New York Times reporter.

Narrator 48:26 Yeah, I saw that.

Saagar Enjeti 48:26 And he was in charge of COVID.

Krystal Ball 48:27 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 48:28 This is still in their f- in their brains. They have brain worms because of Trump. And I was telling Crystal, because of Trump, 35% of this popula- You could have smoking gun proof that lab leak theory was true, 35% of the population, hardcore Democrats who watch MSNBC, they'll never believe it. They'll always say that it's racist. And here's the problem, which, uh, this is the same problem with all of Trump's stuff. If gain-of ... If this is true, we should be having a national conversation around gain-of-function research. We should have a Wuhan commission around gain-of-function research. Instead, they wanna do a January 6th commission in order to reconstruct the events of a day where we all fucking know what happened, okay? It's over. We know. I'm not saying it wasn't terrible, but that is not what the driving con- ... What is it? Fucking ... It's June 15th. Why are we still talking about gain o- about January 6th? We should be talking right now, did US government funds explicitly directed towards novel coronavirus research which led to the worst pandemic in a century and cost the global economy trillions of dollars? And as Josh is the first one to point out, the response from the scientific community has been, "We need more gain-of-function research." $1.2 billion to the Global Virome Project. And so once again, the scientific community wanted all of this covered up. They teamed up with the media to protect their funding resources, because what people forget, Fauci is actually the king of funding. The National Institute of Infectious Disease, I believe, that's N-I-A-D, that's what he's in charge of, they are the primary funding authority for huge amounts of the scientific community. We had Dr. Brett Weinstein on our show, and he was explaining this to us, which is that if you're inside of that research system, you need access to those dollars to keep your lab afloat. Like, for ... My dad is a professor at Texas A&M, and so I know a little bit about funding and, like, the way that you keep your tenure positions in a lot of these universities is you have to, like, continually bring funding in. So both my parents are professors there, and so, like, a lot of the professorial game is getting money from granting institutions. Now, in the science community, it's from the National Science Foundation, it's from the National Institute or whatever Fauci is the head of, the National Institute of Health. They have to keep the dollars flowing. So if you admit this is gain-of-function research, you start asking questions, NIH and Fauci can fucking cut you off. Like, this is a whole business. It's a multi-billion dollar ... I mean, it's an industry, because it's about research. And, look, the core theme of our show is, like, follow the money, right? So follow the money. Where does the money lead? At least Fauci, Peter Daszak, and it's like ... Look, I don't wanna sound crazy, but this is basically, like, a global conspiracy, in terms of-

Krystal Ball 50:54 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 50:55 ... the Chinese government.

Krystal Ball 50:55 Total cover-up.

Saagar Enjeti 50:56 Uh, it's a total cover-... cover-up of the Chinese government, the US government, the guy who was on the fucking TV, and we were all supposed to trust this entire time. And it turns out, like, he's the guy who reversed the ban in the first place in order to take advantage of the chaos under Trump. And I know it's so complicated and regular people... This is what bothers me most about the mainstream media. People want to live their lives and they want answers. And increasingly, they know they are being lied to, but they do not have the time, 'cause it's our job-

Krystal Ball 51:24 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 51:24 ... in order to, you know, explain all this-

Krystal Ball 51:26 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 51:26 ... about Peter Daszak and the World Health Organization, what is gain-of-function research, how Washington actually works, the global funding structures, et cetera. People are being lied to. They have been completely lied to on this story. I think, I do think this is the biggest failure since Iraq WMD. I think this is WMD 2.0.

Krystal Ball 51:43 Yeah. Well, and there's, there's a couple things that are really important about it. I mean, number one, just knowing how the pandemic started.

Saagar Enjeti 51:48 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 51:48 So we can avoid it in the future. That would be a good thing. Um, but number two, it really does reveal the brokenness of the media.

Saagar Enjeti 51:57 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 51:57 And the way that they were complicit here, the way that they actually bought the lies because they were viewing everything through this culture war lens, rather than just looking for and searching for the facts. So, they looked at, they looked at, "Okay. I know Dr. Fauci. I've been talking to him for years. I have this, like, relationship with him and I trust him. And on the other side, we have these crazy kooks, so I'm not even gonna dig any further. I'm just gonna assume that what these people are saying is correct." And again, you layer on the charge of racism and it makes a very potent brew. So, it shows the way that these failures and vulnerabilities within the media can lead to wildly misleading the entire population for a year on what... I mean, you'd have to say this was the, one of the most important questions of the entire year.

Saagar Enjeti 52:42 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 52:42 And they just were absolutely complicit in a total cover-up where you couldn't even talk about it.

Joe Rogan 52:47 Well, it's also, there's no Democrats that are questioning Fauci the way that Rand Paul is-

Saagar Enjeti 52:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:52 ... or Senator Kennedy.

Saagar Enjeti 52:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:54 No one else is doing that.

Krystal Ball 52:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:56 They're all-

Saagar Enjeti 52:57 Because they're in the same boat.

Joe Rogan 52:58 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 52:58 They don't want to be branded as racist, which is... And this happens-

Joe Rogan 53:00 At this point in time-

Saagar Enjeti 53:01 Robert-

Joe Rogan 53:01 ... it's not about Chinese people anymore.

Krystal Ball 53:04 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:04 It's about Fauci and Daszak.

Krystal Ball 53:05 Of course, yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 53:05 Do you know, Doc, do you know-

Krystal Ball 53:06 Exactly right.

Joe Rogan 53:06 How is it racist-

Krystal Ball 53:07 Well, but it's-

Joe Rogan 53:08 ... to ask them what they knew?

Krystal Ball 53:09 But I think it's also because Fauci has achieved such a hero status-

Saagar Enjeti 53:13 Mm-hmm.

Krystal Ball 53:14 ... uh, among a lot of the Democratic base.

Joe Rogan 53:16 But don't you think that that's-

Krystal Ball 53:17 That if you go after him, there's a back-

Joe Rogan 53:18 ... teetering, almost Cuomo-like right now?

Krystal Ball 53:20 No, I actually don't. I really don't.

Saagar Enjeti 53:22 Joe, they, these people... Cuomo's approval rating amongst Dems in New York is like 65%, man.

Joe Rogan 53:26 (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 53:26 Like, it's not... You know what I mean? Like, it's just-

Krystal Ball 53:28 But, and I, and Fauci, though, I don't think-

Joe Rogan 53:28 He actually said something logical yesterday.

Saagar Enjeti 53:30 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 53:30 Oh, really? What was that?

Joe Rogan 53:31 Yeah. Well, he was... It was, someone was, uh, talking to him about, "What do we do about the unvaccinated people?" And he goes, "I'm vaccinated."

Saagar Enjeti 53:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:38 "Are you vaccinated? If you're vaccinated, don't worry about it."

Saagar Enjeti 53:42 Yeah, thank God.

Krystal Ball 53:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:43 That's what he said and everybody's like, "Wait a minute. What the fuck did he just say?"

Saagar Enjeti 53:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:45 Here, I'll send it to you, Caden.

Saagar Enjeti 53:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:46 Because it's, it's pretty funny because he's actually making sense, which is, like, kind of hilarious.

Saagar Enjeti 53:51 Yeah. These, what's fascinating, I think, around all of that is 'cause you're seeing the price of the culture war in real time.

Joe Rogan 53:57 Yes.

Saagar Enjeti 53:58 And you're seeing exactly-

Joe Rogan 53:59 That's exactly right.

Krystal Ball 54:00 That's, that's what it is.

Saagar Enjeti 54:00 ... what, how much damage this can, it can do to this country whenever you have the media sold out in this way. Donald McNeil, who actually got canceled, um, he got canceled for, oh, 'cause he said the N-word on a high school trip. There's a whole other thing.

Joe Rogan 54:13 Yeah, I know that story.

Krystal Ball 54:14 Yeah, uh-huh.

Saagar Enjeti 54:14 Right. So, anyways-

Joe Rogan 54:14 'Cause someone called somebody that-

Saagar Enjeti 54:16 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:16 ... and he said, "Did this person say that word?" And because of that, he got canceled.

Saagar Enjeti 54:21 Yeah, which is shocking.

Krystal Ball 54:22 Yes, and you're, you're ago, right?

Saagar Enjeti 54:23 Completely. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:24 Let's, let's, let's hear this. Let's hear this 'cause it's kind of hilarious.

Narrator 54:26 Because you have the vaccine. I am vaccinated.

Saagar Enjeti 54:28 (laughs)

Narrator 54:29 You may not be vaccinated, but you don't pose a risk to me because I am vaccinated. So, if you are vaccinated, what are you worrying about? Now, the only question is the effective rate of the vaccine, which is 80%, 90%, whatever it is. Uh, so if you're concerned about that, get a vaccine.

Saagar Enjeti 54:56 (laughs)

Krystal Ball 54:56 That's good.

Narrator 54:57 Well, there'll be unvaccinated people. That's their problem. You don't have to worry about.

Saagar Enjeti 55:00 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 55:01 This is crazy. This is crazy. He's talking logic.

Saagar Enjeti 55:03 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 55:04 Well, and here's the thing.

Saagar Enjeti 55:04 Trump is gone, man.

Joe Rogan 55:05 This is crazy.

Saagar Enjeti 55:05 Everyone's, everything's normal again.

Krystal Ball 55:07 And this is the thing, and this is the thing that I hated around this whole pandemic, is like... And Trump definitely made all of this worse with the culture war and, like, the whole, like, the anti-mask stance and all this. You have people who built up identities around whatever their pandemic-era choices were.

Joe Rogan 55:25 Yes.

Krystal Ball 55:25 And then the media fed this, like, you know, the left media was like, "The people who are... If you're having a hard time right now, the people to blame are those, like, crazy right-wing, like your neighbor, your friend, your uncle down the street who has views that are different from yours." And if you're listening to right-wing media, it's like, "The real villain are these people that are wearing double masks," et cetera, et cetera, and it just feeds this, this partisan hatred, this sectarian, like, hatred between these two camps. And then it makes it impossible to get to the facts of things like lab leak, because everybody's just feeding it through these stupid cultural lens. And meanwhile, the people like we were talking about before, who profited and benefited off of all of these, this misery and pain and suffering, they don't, they face no scrutiny. They get off scot-free because the media is so interested and the political class are so interested in making us all hate each other and blame each other for the things that are going wrong in the country.

Saagar Enjeti 56:19 This is what, so I was saying the Donald McNeil thing, 'cause I want people to know this. He admitted after he was fired from the New York Times.

Krystal Ball 56:25 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 56:25 He says, "I did not believe the lab leak theory because Trump was saying it." And here's what he said. "I have been friends with Dr. Fauci and Peter Daszak for a long time. I have known them to never mislead me, so I trusted them whenever it came to the lab leak." He admitted it. This is the former science reporter at the New York Times. He was a star before the whole cancellation. This is what it comes down to. I mean, in a way, like, props, Donald. Like, thank you for telling the truth, which is that you were like, "I didn't trust Trump and I trusted Peter Daszak and Fauci and them." But it's all out there in the open. And-

Joe Rogan 56:56 And that's the culture. The cult-

Saagar Enjeti 56:57 That's the culture of the entire-

Joe Rogan 56:59 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 56:59 ... elite media class, which is they ha-... They... We... There was this poll we covered in... Was it January? I think it was post-January 6th, where it's like, "What's the top concern for Democrats?" It was Trump voters. And it was, amongst, uh-

Joe Rogan 57:10 Jesus.

Saagar Enjeti 57:10 I think GOP voters?

Krystal Ball 57:11 Right.

Saagar Enjeti 57:11 It was illegal immigrants.

Krystal Ball 57:12 It was-

Saagar Enjeti 57:12 And then it was Democrats, I think.

Krystal Ball 57:13 No, it wasn't the top concern. It was the number one threat-

Saagar Enjeti 57:17 Oh, yes. Right.

Krystal Ball 57:17 ... to the country.And if you ask Democrats-

Joe Rogan 57:19 I thought it was white supremacy. Did Joe Biden-

Saagar Enjeti 57:21 Well, it's all... No, that's the same thing.

Krystal Ball 57:22 It was... Well, that's hand in glove, right?

Saagar Enjeti 57:23 Yeah, same thing. Right.

Krystal Ball 57:23 It, for, for Democrats it... Number one was Trump supporters and I think white supremacy was probably like number two or three.

Saagar Enjeti 57:29 Right. Number two. Right.

Krystal Ball 57:29 And for Republicans, it was, it was immigration, so again, like, those people.

Joe Rogan 57:33 Right.

Krystal Ball 57:33 And liberals, right? Those were the... So it was... Rather than thinking about the people who actually have power, who got wildly rich off of your suffering this year, it's like the media has conditioned everyone to just hate each other and think that your, your neighbor, your friend, your mom, your whoever in your life that holds different views for you, from you, be they liberal or conservative, that they're the real problem. They're the real threat. Think about that language. The real threat. It's not war or peace or climate change or anything like... Or a natural disaster. It's your neighbor, and that situation cannot persist in America. I mean, that doesn't lead to anywhere, anywhere good at all if you actually think that that is the scariest thing to, to your life and, like, the future for your kids.

Saagar Enjeti 58:21 You can't let this go.

Krystal Ball 58:21 And it allows the political class to just do nothing.

Joe Rogan 58:24 The cr-

Krystal Ball 58:24 All they have to do is point fingers. That's it.

Joe Rogan 58:26 And the crazy thing is this is like a self-imposed mass hysteria. You would think that, like, there's someone manipulating the strings behind the media to try to get us to hate each other, but it's not. Everyone's doing it on their own.

Krystal Ball 58:35 It's just a, it's just a, it's just a profitable-

Saagar Enjeti 58:37 It's a confluence of events.

Krystal Ball 58:37 It's a profitable strategy. That's what it is.

Joe Rogan 58:39 But, but you're right. It's a confluence of events.

Krystal Ball 58:41 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 58:41 It's the confluence of three networks of stratified media, liberal and conservative out there. This is the ethos of our show. When we broke away, like, this is what we believe in. We believe in making people hate each other less and hate the corrupt ruling class more. That's what we believe in.

Krystal Ball 58:53 Yeah. That's it.

Saagar Enjeti 58:54 And we'll see... We can see exactly how this manifests itself, which is like... I was talking about the January 6th Commission because this really bothers me. And it's like I said, I was horrified by January 6th. I think what happened was terrible. I still see... If you are a journalist in Washington, I see these CNN correspondents running up and chasing down senators in the hallways being like, "Senator, what about the January 6th Commission? Senator, uh, uh, do you support or against January 6th Commission? What about, you know, subpoena power whenever it comes to January 6th Commission?" Meanwhile, and we recently covered this, there is a national reckoning around home prices in America.

Joe Rogan 59:22 Okay, but, but, but they're not mutually exclusive, right?

Saagar Enjeti 59:24 Well, but see-

Joe Rogan 59:24 But the January 6th thing is important.

Saagar Enjeti 59:26 See, i- it is important, but is it the six months later? Is it should be the ruling number one conversation of the journalist?

Joe Rogan 59:32 I think, I think it's really important. And one of the reasons why I think it's important 'cause it highlights the reasons why a guy like Donald Trump is so fucking dangerous-

Saagar Enjeti 59:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:38 ... is because a guy can incite a bunch of morons to do something really fucking stupid. And now that he's silenced off of social media, and now that, you know, that actually did happen-

Krystal Ball 59:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:49 ... once it becomes a thing, it could be... Like mass shootings, right? They didn't exist, then they did.

Krystal Ball 59:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:54 Now they, now they're a thing. That could be a thing again.

Saagar Enjeti 59:58 If it was a real commission, I would, I would believe you, Joe. But knowing how these things work, I know that this commission would be some sort of bullshit re- like the Benghazi report before it, or many of these others. The way that the politics works around it, it will dominate the news cycle. And I... Here's the thing though. Washington actually is a zero sum game. Like, when I'm talking about mutual exclusivity, it actually is. Senate floor time is the most precious thing in DC. So, whatever the driving conversation of the DC is that day, it is actually detracting from somewhere else because these people take vacations literally every other day, their August recess is coming up, all of this. So, when we focus on... I mean, look, the presidency, like the presidency is really about 100 days. And after that you're, like, running for the midterms, and after that you're running for re-election. In terms of the last, what, I think, like, 75, 80 years of the American presidency, the vast majority of major legislation moves in the first couple of months of the administration, and then that's it. You're totally dead. And so for the fact that January 6th continues to dominate American politics, I agree with you. It's completely important. And if it was a real commission, yes, but I know that there are these titanic other issues moving within American politics and that are getting zero attention. Lab leak is actually number one. May- maybe somebody should go and ask a Democratic senator whether they believe in the lab leak theory or not. These... So this is the... Mutual exclusivity is because the CNN reporter must ask this because he needs to give his bosses something to air on the nightly news that day, which is part of the editorial agenda.

Krystal Ball 1:01:25 Well-

Saagar Enjeti 1:01:25 The Fox News reporter-

Krystal Ball 1:01:27 Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 1:01:27 ... has to do the same thing, and it comes together to mask all of these incredibly important issues. So it's... It really is a tragedy because it's like you said, I, I don't want to downplay January 6th. I actually think it was terrible and it does show, like, the power of, you know, of a, a demagogue, like, of a charlatan whenever you become president. But whenever we're focusing on that at the expense of everything else, and maybe we should even ask, "Why are these people all like mo-... Like, why are you willing to storm the Capitol for Trump?"

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 I can help you out with that.

Krystal Ball 1:01:57 For a fake, for a fake thing.

Saagar Enjeti 1:01:57 Yeah, yeah. Tell me. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 'Cause they're idiots.

Saagar Enjeti 1:01:59 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 There's a lot of idiots. It's, like, it's very easy to survive.

Krystal Ball 1:02:01 But I think, I think... Here's the thing.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 That's what... But that is what it is.

Krystal Ball 1:02:04 Here's where, here's where I really agree with you, is, um, January 6th was like a case study in all that's gone wrong in the country, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 1:02:11 And you're absolutely right. I think what you said is really profound about this is a thing that happened, and now you're very likely to see similar repeats-

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 1:02:19 ... similar type of... Whether it's on the right or the left or whatever, and you just know that the, the sort of partisan commission that will come out of Washington, we know what the answer will be. The answer will be, number one, Republicans are bad and Donald Trump is bad.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 Yep.

Krystal Ball 1:02:33 They will do... If you were going to really go- get to the root of what's going on, it would implicate too many Democrats as well who've been happy to play this game of mutual demonization and existential politics that only lead to, you know, these sort of horrific outcomes. And again, that doesn't take agency away from any of the people who did this shit, who are morons and, like, deserve whatever, you know, whatever punishment is appropriate. The problem is what this, what this will lead to is, number one, Donald Trump's bad. Okay, we get that. We, we all know that, and we have our feelings about it. Number two, this justifies us taking more surveillance power, creeping into your life more, demonizing the other side, quote unquote-

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Yes.

Krystal Ball 1:03:15 ... even more. And so 100%. I mean, actually, you could think about our show and what we do every day as trying to get to the roots of how you end up in a fucking terrible place like January 6th.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 1:03:28 Do I think that our political class is gonna do anything? No, of course not. Of course not, because it implicates too many of them, so they'll just search for the partisan answer. They'll search for the answer that hands them more...... power and hands the sort of surveillance state and police state more power. We're already seeing that. Joe Biden just made a big announcement about all of that.

Narrator 1:03:47 Mm-hmm. What was the announcement?

Krystal Ball 1:03:47 And then we'll move forward. So he announced, and I, I have, haven't had a chance to read through all the details, but there's an, a new big initiative to essentially use the, um, the powers that we deployed against, uh, Islamic terrorists now against the domestic population. So treating sort of domestic extremism in the same way that we treated-

Narrator 1:04:06 How do you define domestic extremism though?

Saagar Enjeti 1:04:07 Yeah. That's a good question.

Krystal Ball 1:04:09 So well, that's, so that's the question.

Narrator 1:04:10 Like slide the scale.

Krystal Ball 1:04:10 And that's, that is the-

Saagar Enjeti 1:04:11 And that's what January 6th commission is about.

Krystal Ball 1:04:12 That, that is the question.

Narrator 1:04:14 Right.

Krystal Ball 1:04:14 Because, look, today, look, I fucking hate white supremacists. You know, I mean, all these, that's, it's a monstrous ideology. But one day it's that, and the next day, just like we saw with Islam, I mean, some of these people who were arrested for supposedly aiding, aiding and abetting terrorism, it was totally set up. They never would have even thought about a plot if the FBI hadn't encouraged them to create a plot. It helps to bolster someone's career because then they can say, "Look, we went out and got the bad guys, and we disrupted this bombing plot," et cetera, et cetera. They get elevated in the m- the media. Their career flourishes. You've got people who now have even more surveillance powers into all of our lives. And that question of, "Okay, now who is a domestic terror..." Like, that is the question, and that's where this all ends up, um, ultimately becoming very scary.

Saagar Enjeti 1:04:58 I saw this in the New York Times post-January 6th. They're saying that, you know, people are now using encrypted messaging in order to pass potentially dangerous ideas.

Narrator 1:05:06 Right, right. Right.

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:06 So what is the, what is the, what is the implication of that?

Krystal Ball 1:05:08 Dangerous ideas.

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:09 You have to, well, we, we need, uh, we need access to Signal we- because people are having dangerous conversations. Some ex-white supremacists use Signal maybe in order to plan January 6th. Okay. Um, a lot of people use the phone in order to do ki- all kinds of shit.

Krystal Ball 1:05:23 Right. (laughs)

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:23 Does that mean that all phone conversations should be tapped-

Krystal Ball 1:05:25 We need to shut down the phones.

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:26 ... all of the time? This is insane.

Krystal Ball 1:05:28 Or they said the same thing, they said the same thing about podcasts.

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:29 Yes, RSS feeds. Yeah.

Krystal Ball 1:05:30 I'm sure you saw that too, right?

Narrator 1:05:31 Yeah.

Krystal Ball 1:05:31 There was a big New York Times article about how podcasts are this unregulated, un-

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:36 Yeah, misinformation. Right, right.

Krystal Ball 1:05:37 ... un- unfettered, that's the, the word they liked, unfettered conversations are happening on these podcasts.

Narrator 1:05:41 That's what we do.

Krystal Ball 1:05:41 And we have to shut that down.

Narrator 1:05:43 Well, that's why they're popular.

Krystal Ball 1:05:43 Can't have that, Joe.

Narrator 1:05:44 They're popular because of-

Krystal Ball 1:05:45 That's it.

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:45 Exactly. Because of that.

Narrator 1:05:45 ... unfettered conversations.

Krystal Ball 1:05:46 That's it.

Saagar Enjeti 1:05:46 And this is, this is what I want to underscore, is that when you allow this to happen in the hands of these like monsters, is that they will use it not to any... What you're talking about is a good faith effort to be like, "This is fucking crazy." And I actually read a, a s- profile of one of the guys (laughs) , this, I, I hate to laugh about this, but some of the people who died on January 6th had heart attacks, and it was because it was like the most exciting day of their lives, like while they were storming the Capitol.

Krystal Ball 1:06:11 On the job. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti 1:06:11 And I read a profile of one of these guys-

Narrator 1:06:12 People that were storming the Capitol died?

Saagar Enjeti 1:06:14 People that were storming the Capitol has, like, they were so excited.

Krystal Ball 1:06:17 Had heart att-

Saagar Enjeti 1:06:17 There were like four people who had heart attacks.

Narrator 1:06:18 Just eating meatball subs all day.

Saagar Enjeti 1:06:21 (laughs) No, but-

Narrator 1:06:21 And clogged arteries.