Joe Rogan Experience #1692 - Jason Wilson

1. 0:00 – 0:49

   Viral martial arts moment: giving boys permission to cry

   1. JWJason Wilson0:00

      (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Well, it's a pleasure to meet you, man.

   3. JWJason Wilson0:13

      Oh, it's a honor to meet you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Honor to meet you, too.

   5. JWJason Wilson0:15

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      You know, I've, uh, paid attention to your videos and I ... You know, I follow you on Instagram. And so many times I've, I've watched your videos and said, "That's a authentic guy." Like, "I wanna meet that guy. I wanna talk to him." So I was real excited that you were willing to do this.

   7. JWJason Wilson0:31

      Oh, man. I was honored. You know, um ... Let me turn this, I guess.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:34

      Yeah.

   9. JWJason Wilson0:34

      I was really honored, um, when I ... I reached out to you on Instagram. I was surprised that you were following me. I was blown away, man. I just has been, you know ... I've been watching you for a while, and I was just ... You know, when you offered for me to come here, man, I just was just ecstatic. So thanks, man. It's a honor to be here.

2. 0:49 – 6:54

   Why martial arts builds mentorship, confidence, and emotional resilience

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:49

      Oh, my pleasure. I, uh ... You know, I think one thing that young boys and, and men a- as well need in this world is guidance-

   2. JWJason Wilson0:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:58

      ... and mentorship. And, uh, to get that from martial arts is, uh, one of the best ways and one of the most, uh, one of the most fulfilling and satisfying ways. So w- ... I, I found you from a video that a bunch of people sent me of you, uh, working with a young boy who was, uh, having a hard time, uh, dealing with th- the pain of, like, punching through a board. Y- you know the video.

   4. JWJason Wilson1:21

      Yes, yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:21

      And just the way you were communicating with him and letting him know that it's okay to cry and that ... You know, just express yourself. And it was refreshing, and it was authentic, but it was also like ... You could tell, like, that kid is gonna get a lot out of that exchange. And I was like, "I wanna meet that guy."

   6. JWJason Wilson1:36

      Well, yeah, man. I mean, that video opened my mind up to really what men we're dealing with inside. Because when that video went viral, our offices at our nonprofit had to shut down.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:47

      Really?

   8. JWJason Wilson1:47

      Okay, so the Cave of Adullam, the martial arts program you're speaking of, is under the umbrella of our nonprofit, The Union. And so when this video went viral, my wife calls me, who is our executive director. She says, "Jason, is there a video that's going viral?" And I'm like, "What do you mean?" 2016, I didn't really understand the terminology. And sure enough, this video started racking up a lot of views. Shortly thereafter, our phones wouldn't stop ringing. And it was men from all over the world, crying to our staff, calling in crying, saying, "I want to be free. I'm tired of holding all of this in. I wish my coach would have talked to me that way when I was going through ..."

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      Yeah, there it is right there.

   10. JWJason Wilson2:26

       "... a lot." Yeah, that's it.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       Well, it's, it's hard to find a good mentor. And I think every man needs a mentor. And, you know, one of the things that martial arts does that I think is really important is it gives you these goals to work towards as you move through a belt system or whatever kind of system that e- each martial art that's different has.

   12. JWJason Wilson2:50

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:51

       As you develop your skills and you, you, you get more proficient and you improve, you, you have, like, tangible progress and you can see it. And I think there's a lot of people that go through life not exactly sure where they stand-

   14. JWJason Wilson3:06

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:06

       ... where they're at.

   16. JWJason Wilson3:07

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:07

       And I think martial arts provides you with real feedback in one of the most ... I think one of the most emotionally and physically difficult things that a person can do.

   18. JWJason Wilson3:17

       Yes. And so many people don't realize, the young boy in that video, Bruce, he was actually had a, a fear of failure. He had broke that board easily the week prior. But because of this test and the pressure and everyone watching, he just froze on his non-dominant hand and he couldn't break through. So he broke down crying. And I wel- welcomed his tears and said, "Look, we cry as men." You know, "Let this go." And men ... And I love about martial arts more than sports, it makes you face your fears. And nothing like if a punch is coming at you, or kick, or if you're grappling and you're concerned if someone's gonna take your back and choke you, I apply all these principles in life as well. And so when you give a man or a male a safe space to really be emotional and let go of anxiety that he feels every day, the father wound, his fear of failure, his lack of confidence, where he can have a moment ... We call it a moment on the mat, where you can stop the training and you can express what's overwhelming you in that moment, they transform instantly, man, and this a ... It's a great thing to see. And I've never seen anything work like the arts. Even with my son, he's 13 years old. You saw him, you know, 6'1 and a half. Everyone says, "You're gonna play basketball." And it's like, "No, it's other things that I want to do." And so even with sports, I say, "Son, it'll give you some confidence." But when we spar, we, we training, the anxiety he feels, the voices, "Oh man, uh, Chris hit you again. What are you gonna do about that? How you gonna maneuver? How you gonna respond?" And I allow him to break down in that moment. I say, "Okay, cool. Now it's time to recover. Reflect on it. What's the lie? What's the truth? Do you think this man is not supposed to hit you? He's a skilled fighter. The goal is not for you to be the best. The goal is for you to learn."

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:59

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JWJason Wilson4:59

       All right? So when I give them that freedom to feel, to feel the fear, now they're not ... They don't succumb to it when it really happens in real life. And so that's why I love the arts, especially the grappling arts, which I hate I didn't discover till later in my training, because nothing like someone invading your space.

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:19

       (laughs)

   22. JWJason Wilson5:20

       You know, we can s- ... keep distance striking and it ... We're comfortable here. But when someone invades your space or when a problem happens in your life where it's so close and personal that you can't just shake it, you have to learn how to bide your time and maneuver and don't let it come around you or you can get tapped out by the stress of that situation, the arts is just amazing if it's taught in a way that men could apply it to life.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:44

       I, I couldn't agree more. And I think one of the beautiful things about jujitsu in particular is there's so much failure. And, uh, you know, you could call it failure or you could just ... It, it, it, it is what it is.

   24. JWJason Wilson5:56

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:56

       I mean, there is, uh ... One person gets tapped, the other person taps the person out.... you, one person submits, the other person d- uh, applies a submission. It's just... And it's constant. If you're training with really good people, you're experiencing loss on a regular basis.

   26. JWJason Wilson6:10

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       And so, you can... You, you understand how to process that. For some people, when there's... Uh, when they've failed in life, or when something didn't go their way, they fall apart. It's devastating. They, they judge themselves as a whole based on one moment, whether it's a moment at work, or whether it's something in their personal life, or whatever it is where they've, they've... They haven't achieve- h- achieved success the way they envisioned it should happen or they wanted it to happen. It's devastating. It kills their confidence and they don't know how to handle it.

   28. JWJason Wilson6:43

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan6:43

       One of the beautiful things about jujitsu is, you achieve failure all the time.

   30. JWJason Wilson6:48

       (laughs)
3. 6:54 – 10:30

   Jason’s martial arts background—and why live resistance matters

   1. JWJason Wilson6:54

      Hey, man, you know, I came from... I started with, um, Shaolin Kempo. Actually, I started with what they called a combat jujitsu, jujitsu in Detroit. It was more of a urban type training. And we didn't even have mats, man.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:06

      Hmm.

   3. JWJason Wilson7:06

      'Cause the instructor at the time said, "There's no mats out- outside." So he was training us to do security. And these guys were so serious, they would shut down crack houses.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:15

      Oh.

   5. JWJason Wilson7:15

      And so, imagine coming from that and then going to more of like a Shaolin Kempo system. Even my instructor then was very serious Vietnam veteran. It wasn't this touch magical stuff where you fall out. But still, that type of training, going from Aikibujutsu as well, and then going to jujitsu, jujitsu there was never a day off.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:38

      Hmm.

   7. JWJason Wilson7:38

      I hurt every time after training.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:40

      Yeah.

   9. JWJason Wilson7:41

      And, um, I wanna thank you real quick. Um, I was about to dive into Aikido.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:46

       (laughs)

   11. JWJason Wilson7:46

       And this is when I first heard of you, okay? And so, I'm googling. You know, you're trying to make sure this is something you wanna do, because I only studied the arts... Not necessarily to learn how, learn how to defend myself, because in my community, people carry guns. Okay? So that's the eliminator of all of that.

   12. JRJoe Rogan8:02

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JWJason Wilson8:02

       And so, I would use it to help men and boys to navigate through their emotions, so that they don't succumb to the negative ones. You had a show with an Aikidoka, uh, someone who practices Aikido, and you said you think this would work against a D1 wrestler. And you showed the video, and the D1 wrestler just overwhelmed this-

   14. JRJoe Rogan8:21

       Yeah.

   15. JWJason Wilson8:21

       ... person in Aikido. Joe, I always felt that way when I started training with Ɣaḑḑin kɑn. It was the real stiff...

   16. JRJoe Rogan8:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JWJason Wilson8:29

       I said, "This won't work for real."

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:32

       Yeah.

   19. JWJason Wilson8:32

       And although I appreciated the principles, but it was that show that you sh- you had that really said, "Look, go into something else." Then I tried Aikibujutsu, which is like samurai wrestling techniques more. It was like a hybrid, a mix of jujitsu, judo, uh, and then some Aikido. But nothing was like jujitsu, man, 'cause it made me face my self-doubt. Uh, when you think you're the greatest, you're humbled really quick.

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       Yeah.

   21. JWJason Wilson8:59

       And then I had to overcome what I call false humility. You know, m- sometimes I would be bigger, majority of the times, bigger than the person I would roll with. And as a teacher by heart, I would catch myself, Joe, teaching the person I'm rolling with how to beat me and what they're doing wrong, instead of just dominating him.

   22. JRJoe Rogan9:17

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JWJason Wilson9:17

       So then one of my coaches, Zander Heinan, who was a Marcelo Garcia black belt, he says, "You're supposed to dominate. Don't worry about teaching 'em. They'll learn on the mat." And that was something I had to work through as a teacher, because I saw men when I was rolling with them, when they were really tight, my training in other arts allowed me to be soft and let that energy go past me, so that I can control them. But I wanted to help the man because I knew inside what he was dealing with personally.

   24. JRJoe Rogan9:44

       Hmm.

   25. JWJason Wilson9:44

       And that's why he was rolling with me so aggressive. And so, I had to make myself tap out, do my best to tap out everyone on that mat that day, which you know is a very hard thing to do in a good school. But God was telling me, "You got to get past this, 'cause I need you to go to a certain space in life where you won't be fearful of being dominant." And so many good men shrink back and become passive. And jujitsu makes you say, "You gotta... You have to face this. You have to be strong." You can't avoid the difficult conversation you need to have with your wife. You can't avoid, uh, speaking up for yourself when someone took a position from you at work. And the arts, again, if taught correctly, it allows a man that pathway to really develop holistically.

4. 10:30 – 17:30

   Fear of dominance: trauma, passivity, and assertiveness vs. aggression

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:30

      That's interesting, a fear of being dominant.

   2. JWJason Wilson10:32

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:33

      Yeah. So you... That... I, I see what you're saying, though. Like you, you're worried about like, uh, almost being a bully or something.

   4. JWJason Wilson10:41

      Or just being just the best.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:43

      Yeah.

   6. JWJason Wilson10:43

      I had a situation, my cousin... And this is where it started from trauma, 'cause there's a cause and effect for everything that we do. Um, I had... Remember the Sony Watchman TVs-

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:52

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JWJason Wilson10:52

      ... they're the portable TVs?

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:53

      Oh, yeah (laughs) .

   10. JWJason Wilson10:53

       So, he had let one of the gang members in our area use it and he never gave it back. And so, I was so upset. Before I knew it, I hit him on the side of his t- where his temple was, and he went deaf temporarily, and dropped on my kitchen floor. That scared me because I loved him. And ever since then, for a period of my time in my life, I refused to be dominant. And that scared me in that moment. But one of my instructors, c-

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:18

       So you just hit him just 'cause you were upset at him?

   12. JWJason Wilson11:20

       I was angry, man. I mean, as a male, I got-

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:22

       You're upset that he didn't-

   14. JWJason Wilson11:23

       I thought I got punked. Yeah. I couldn't-

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:24

       Right. Right.

   16. JWJason Wilson11:24

       Yeah, we're not taught to really reason-

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JWJason Wilson11:27

       ... or reconcile. You disrespect me, you gotta pay for that.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:30

       Right.

   20. JWJason Wilson11:31

       And here's someone I loved in front of me. I couldn't say, "Man, that hurt me that you, you stole something that meant a lot to me," 'cause then I would come off as weak.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:39

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JWJason Wilson11:39

       So before I knew it, Joe, I hit him and dropped him in my kitchen. And he couldn't hear for a while, and that scared me. And that carried on in my life where I would pull back from just being dominant. Until one of my instructors, Kajana, we were sparring, and he's, uh, maybe 5'2", and he says, uh, "You're not trying to hit me." I said, "Yes, I am." He says, "Let's go again." So we start sparring. He puts his face in front of my fists, and I moved my fists subconsciously.

   23. JRJoe Rogan12:08

       Hmm.

   24. JWJason Wilson12:10

       And I said, "Whoa, what was that?" He says, "Your fear being dominant." He says, "You have me outweighed. You're stronger and, and everything, but you think it's your fault." And so I see this play out even in kids in school or grown men who are big.

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:26

       Hmm.

   26. JWJason Wilson12:26

       And they tend to shrink down. That's why if you see a tall person, they tend to slouch down a lot. And I tell all of my young boys, even the girls, "Raise your chin. It's not your fault that you're taller than everyone."

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:37

       Hmm.

   28. JWJason Wilson12:38

       And so, I had to learn in that moment, it's not my problem that I'm dominant in this situation. That's the person I'm facing.

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:46

       That is an interesting thing. You see sometimes with really big guys, you see them get bullied and pushed around. And you, so you think that's what it is?

   30. JWJason Wilson12:52

       That's what it is.
5. 17:30 – 22:08

   Building The Cave of Adullam: from discipline-first to love-first mentorship

   1. JRJoe Rogan17:30

      How lo- how many years have you been mentoring young boys?

   2. JWJason Wilson17:34

      I would say almost 16, 17 years now.

   3. JRJoe Rogan17:37

      And how did it get started?

   4. JWJason Wilson17:38

      Um, in 2000 and ... Well, I founded our nonprofit in 2003. And from there, uh, my father wasn't actively in my life, you know? He was around, but wasn't there. And I had what's called a father wound, and basically just an absence of a male figure in my life, specifically my father. Uh, he was verbally abusive, you know? I could make... If I knocked this cup over, I would get cursed out, you know, things like that. So, I had to overcome a lot of that. So, in Detroit, I saw a great need for, uh, Black boys to be mentored.And so, at first, I started the Cave of Adela with just martial arts, but then I quickly discovered after these bootcamps, bootcamp programs kept failing over and over again, and scared straight programs, was that our boys didn't need more discipline, they needed more love.

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:25

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JWJason Wilson18:25

      So then I made the Cave of Adela more comprehensive. So I still use the arts, focus on what works, but also give boys a safe space to release the trauma they're dealing with in their lives, the emotional pain, the lack of confidence, all these other things that they're dealing with, and give them this space where they can release it and become strong. So that started ... I had my first pilot in 2008, and then after that, um, 2013, I was awarded a grant for, um, just, uh, developing the Cave, and that's when we just started going full-time in our own location. And we haven't looked back then. We have almost 500 boys on our waiting list.

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:02

      Wow.

   8. JWJason Wilson19:02

      Yeah. And, um, you know, it was g- it was interesting, Joe. I- I thought it was just a Black thing, you know, 'cause again, if that's all you're around, you think that's the only youth that are dealing with these issues. I had a group one time, it was multicultural, which was great. It was my first time. And I saw white kids, you know, that I- I cared about were struggling so much and weren't used to releasing what they felt. And one of 'em, uh, direct messaged me, a 16-year-old. He says, "Mr. Wilson, please don't ever forget about us." Because he was concerned because, um, there was a lot of school shootings at the time. He says, "A lot of times we're abused and we don't know how to process this emotion, then we'll grab a gun, and it's the only way we know how to express ourselves." It's no different from a man who is volatile and abusive to his wife. You know, I used to hit things in my home, Joe. I'm not, you know, proud of saying it. You know, my wife would say things that would trigger me, and I would knock holes in the wall just in anger 'cause I didn't know how to express hurt, or sadness, or just feeling dismissed and passively dismissed for how I felt. And as a result, I became a very unstable, uh, man mentally, emotionally, and, um, I was just what I- I call just a masculine male. I wasn't comprehensive at the time. And so I've saw a direct correlation when I allow a male that freedom to feel, to be angry when you're upset, but then teach you how to reset from that anger, how to use that anger for good 'cause anger isn't bad. It's only bad when it ca- you allow it to make you do bad things. The greatest statistic I love in our academy is that over 78% of our recruits improve their grade point average by one letter grade without tutoring. That's because we allow them to be who they are inside, allow them to live from the good in their heart, allow them to talk about the things they're experiencing at home, the- the things they're experiencing at school. We don't just go into training in martial arts 'cause then they could be great that day in training physically, but leave there still mentally, uh, traumatized or emotionally damaged. And so the Cave is- is just that. It's a, it's a, it's a institute or an academy where we allow boys to feel, you know? Our mission is to teach, train, and transform boys into comprehensive men, men who are physically conscious, mentally astute, but spiritually strong enough to navigate through the pressures of this world without succumbing to their negative emotions.

   9. JRJoe Rogan21:35

      So when you're doing this, you're- you're learning yourself and you're also teaching these kids. So how much of a process was it to develop the curriculum, to develop this program, and to figure out what is the best way to address these- these boys and their insecurities and their issues and how to- how to give them s- give them strength and give them love-

   10. JWJason Wilson21:59

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:59

       ... but also give them discipline? Also teach them how to- how to get through, work through pain-

   12. JWJason Wilson22:04

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan22:04

       ... work through emotions? It must have been-

   14. JWJason Wilson22:07

       Oh, man.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:07

       ... a lot of trial and error.

6. 22:08 – 29:40

   Vulnerability as curriculum: dementia, caregiving, and ‘comprehensive’ manhood

   1. JWJason Wilson22:08

      It was a lot of trial and error. Um, more so, Joe, I had to become transparent. Um, in that moment when that video went viral, none of my recruits really ever seen me cry, you know? I was still just tough, man. And at the time, my mother was going through dementia. So I'm still trying to develop this curriculum and saying, "Okay, it's- it's coming along, but it's still missing something." And what it was missing was giving men the freedom to be vulnerable at any given moment and for them to feel that liberating power. When my mother developed dementia, Joe, um, she was like my sensei, man, uh, meaning the emotions that I could hide in martial arts training, because where I came up, you couldn't express that, you know? They would... You know, once... A school I was at, they would just rush you. The instructor would say, "Everyone on Jason." And, you know, we would shake going into this school. Our hands would shake 'cause it wasn't just grappling. We dealt with real knives. You're getting kicked. No pads, none of that, man. But-

   2. JRJoe Rogan23:12

      You dealt with real knives?

   3. JWJason Wilson23:13

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan23:14

      So you're doing like knife-

   5. JWJason Wilson23:15

      Yeah, 'c- 'cause this whole thing-

   6. JRJoe Rogan23:16

      ... retention?

   7. JWJason Wilson23:16

      ... is like everyth-

   8. JRJoe Rogan23:17

      Defense?

   9. JWJason Wilson23:18

      He's a masterful teacher. A lot of this stuff is choreography.

   10. JRJoe Rogan23:22

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JWJason Wilson23:22

       Okay, you see some of the gun defenses and things like that, it's like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan23:25

       Yeah.

   13. JWJason Wilson23:25

       ... "Come on, man. That wouldn't work."

   14. JRJoe Rogan23:26

       Right.

   15. JWJason Wilson23:27

       The way he taught us is like if someone has a knife, if you can get away, go. Uh, I think Jocko said the same thing. If someone has a knife, go the other direction. But if you have to defend yourself, first thing you need to realize is that they should cut you. If it's just your uncle drunk at a barbecue, they should cut you. Can you deal with that pain and that emotion of seeing your own blood run down your arm and still eliminate the threat? So these things we would practice with knives 'cause he says, "If it's plastic in your head, what happens when a real one comes?" But I couldn't express really who, what was going on inside of me that would make me feel the fear. You know? The Cave needed that element. It needed to say, "Why are you pulling back? Why aren't you applying that arm bar? Why are you scared to get thrown when your partner needs you to practice his own?" And we tie the throws, especially judo throws-... to a fear of failure. Because, as you know, in judo, if you're not relaxed when you take that fall, it hurts significantly more. In life, if you don't just go with it and allow yourself the freedom to make a mistake or freedom to fall or freedom to fail, when you hit that ground, when you fail or hit that wall, it hurts that much more. And so what I had to do was first allow my students to see what hurts me. My mother had a stroke one day, and my wife comes in and says, "Hey, you need to leave immediately. Your mom is, had to be rushed to the hospital." I start breaking down. And all of my kids, imagine all of them and their fathers there, surround you, hug you, and pray over you. Just h- just hugging me. And at that moment, I said, "This is what they need. They need to see a comprehensive man, someone who's strong but sensitive, someone who's courageous but compassionate, someone who freely lives from the good in their heart and doesn't allow their fears to stop them from living." When that happened, Joe, these boys became not only greater at martial arts, but greater sons, greater community servants, greater students, able to deal with bullies. One of my students, a beautiful kid, Josiah, short, curly haired, beautiful personality, he was getting bullied at school, but he thought it wasn't Christ-like, you know, or the Christian thing to do, was to defend yourself. You know, you're supposed to take it. I'm like, "I don't know where you got that from." I said, "If someone is trying to harm you, you defend yourself." So, the bully grabs him one day, Ogoji, he grabs him from behind, he throws him, kicked the legs out and slammed the bully down to the ground. You would think he would celebrate just defending himself, but what made Josiah the proudest was that before the bully hit the ground, he pulled up on his hoodie to stop his head from hitting the cement.

   16. JRJoe Rogan26:17

       Hmm. Wow.

   17. JWJason Wilson26:18

       That's when I knew, I said, "This is it." Where the good kids, the gentlemen, the kids who were bullied and overlooked can defend themselves, turn on the lion, but reset back to the lamb. No one wants to be, uh, prowling all around, defending and looking rough all the time, having to hit, d- and being just in that fight or flight mode 24/7. Someone tries to harm you, you defend yourself, demonstrably, but you reset. You don't ever allow your kind spirit to conform to something that's callous. And so that's the main principle that we teach, is do not live from your fears. Live from the good that's inside of you. And so, that's how, you know, it all had to come about. And when my mom started getting worse and worse, I, uh, I never had to wash her hair. I never had to do her nails. I never had to change her some time. As a masculine male, you know, we allow masculinity to d- define us. And it's just an adjective with a few attributes. But it, it hindered me from loving my mother. And so, um, by faith, I prayed, I said, "I can't deal with this. It's too stressful for me." You know, I'm used to just dealing with the bills or checking the pharmaceutical companies when they're trying to overcharge Mom or things like that. That's masculine, I can handle this. This is, that's a safe space for me. But he's like, "No." He says, "In order for you to give your mother the care that she need, the most," I was like, "You're gonna have to become comprehensive. You're gonna have to run towards what you don't want to feel." And that's what I tell all of my men. You have someone in your life that needs you, but you avoid it because it makes you feel emotions that aren't masculine.

   18. JRJoe Rogan28:08

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JWJason Wilson28:09

       And I say, "Find that person and run towards that. And then you can start finding yourself healing from what got you to that place." And so with my mom, I got free, Joe. You know, I became comprehensive. I was proud to be a nurturer of my son. You know, you met him. He knows I'm a protector, but he also knows I'm a nurturer. And this world not only needs us to be masculine as men, but they need us to be comprehensive. They need our wives, our women, society needs to see how powerful the love looks like coming from a man. And so I, um, that's why I'm here, man. It's, it's when I get contacted by even people from the UFC, you know, fighters and other actors and people you would never expect who will say, "Hey, man. I want to break free from this." It's, it's just an honor to be used to just share a message that I know can liberate so many men where we become better for ourselves, better leaders, better husbands. And, you know, the suicide rate amongst men, what is it? Three to four times we, we die by suicide than women. You know, how often... I take pictures every time I'm out, Joe. I see a elderly couple, and the man can barely walk, and the wife is peppy. We allow ourselves to be identified by what we do instead of who we really are. And so for me, you

7. 29:40 – 51:18

   Faith, trauma, and becoming a healer (without the façade)

   1. JWJason Wilson29:40

      know, um, I had no faith growing up, man. Like, you know, I, I was, you would call me an atheist, okay? And until I started having significant trauma after trauma when two of my brothers were murdered, my best friend dropped dead of a heart attack on a job with us just sweeping, drops dead on the floor, several friends of mine get shot and die, and my best friend at the time in high school gets shot in the head. All of this stuff had shaped my mind in a way where I didn't really expect anything good to happen. And so because of that, being only a masculine male for me was perfect, because I could stay in f- fight or flight. I can guard myself. I didn't have to show any weakness.But when I allowed myself to feel, when I allowed myself, um, to really be what I didn't see, so you say, how did I develop the curriculum of The Cave? All I am to these boys, all I am to men like yourself, I became what I desired. I always wanted a male in my life that I can look up to, trust, and be a mentor, or be a mentor to me. Someone that I can confide in who wouldn't condemn me when I fail. That's all I am, Joe. And then, things I couldn't deny, like I hated the church. Like, with a passion. Uh, Jehovah's Witnesses would come to my door. I would study the Bible just to dog them, just to put them in check. Then I studied Egyptology, Hinduism, everything. And I said, "Okay, cool." I said, "God, if you're real, show me." (sighs) A friend of mine who was in the NBA, well, he's retired now, we were going to the studio. I used to produce music as well. And, uh, he says, "I can't drive, but you can take the car to the studio." I drive the truck, going on the freeway, a car stalls in front of me. So I swerve to get out of the way. It was a 4Runner, which was top-heavy at the time. The car- truck flips over two times and lands back on all four. They rushed me to the hospital, and here he come. He's the number one draft pick at the time. He comes in the hospital screaming and crying like, "Where, where is Jason?" He comes at me. I says, "Dude, I'm all right. Trust me. It's cool." He was like, "No, you don't understand. My mother told me this was gonna happen. That's why I didn't drive the car." I said, "Okay, cool." Yeah-

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:10

      Wouldn't it be nice if he told you?

   3. JWJason Wilson32:11

      Yeah, exactly. (laughs) Exactly, dude.

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:14

      (laughs)

   5. JWJason Wilson32:14

      And so, that's a whole 'nother conversation.

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:17

      That's another conversation.

   7. JWJason Wilson32:18

      But he- I, I, I don't know if he believed it either.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:20

      Oh, that's funny.

   9. JWJason Wilson32:20

      You know, but h- but for his sake, like, "I don't wanna take chances, but you can go."

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:25

       Right. Wow.

   11. JWJason Wilson32:26

       I asked his mother, I said, "Did that happen? Is that true?" She was like, "Yeah." That still wasn't enough for me. That was just a coincidence. I got so many stories, but the one that really transformed my life, I'm working at Coca-Cola. 12-hour days, I'm angry, and my wife calls me and says, "Don't lose the faith." I said, "If God is real, why am I in here all these hours, and he- I have all of this talent, and I'm just driving a forklift?" I said, "He's fake." And I studied Egyptology, I said, "The only sun that's coming through the clouds is the sun." And we- in Egyptology, that was Ra, the sun god. And I hung up. Within 10 minutes, I go to unload the pallets off of this truck and the driver didn't chalk his brakes. The weight of the high-low pushed the truck bed away, and I dropped with the high-low to the ground, two herniated discs in my back. I fall to the ground, I look up to the sky, I said, "Okay, you got my attention. I'll never go against you again." My son you see in that lobby, my wife had five miscarriages after our daughter, and I'd, uh, after my father died in 2007, I was in the shower and, um, heard the Lord say to me, he says, "Hey, after you, there is no more." I said, "Okay, what does that mean?" Took me to Abraham. Rich, no children, so when he died, all of his wealth goes to a servant. I get out the shower, I look to my wife, I said, "Nicole, do you pray for a child, specifically a boy?" She says, "Yeah." And I get angry, because my wife almost died from, uh, she got pregnant before little Jay, and she has a bicornuate uterus. I hope I'm saying it correctly. Where the egg went into a uterus that wasn't productive. So if the child would've been born, my wife would've died, and the baby. So, they were able to catch it. So we had, she had to have another, uh, she had another miscarriage. They had to stitch up this bicornuate uterus, but she could get pregnant, but again, she could deal with the same issue of dying because she only has half of her uterus. So, I prayed with her. Two weeks later, she gets pregnant. At the five-month mark, Joe, I'm getting her something to eat. She calls me screaming and crying. I said, "What's going on?" Sharp pains in her stomach. I said, "We about to lose another child." I knew we shouldn't have got pregnant. I go home. As I'm going home, a car pulls up to me. This older white woman, she looks at me. She says, "Hey, um, do you know where such and such is? I can't remember." And I told her. She says, "Oh, by the way, don't lose the faith." I said, "What?" She says, "Don't lose faith. It's gonna be okay."

   12. JRJoe Rogan35:20

       Just randomly.

   13. JWJason Wilson35:21

       Straight up, man. You know, so those things, I couldn't question. We go to the hospital, it's her appendix had ruptured. The doctor said the timing was so perfect, it was scary. Only at that time in her pregnancy could he take my son out, then remove her appendix and put him back.

   14. JRJoe Rogan35:40

       (sighs) He took him out and put him back?

   15. JWJason Wilson35:43

       Yes, yes, man. And so I'm like... So imagine now, my son is in her. We don't... All these drugs going in my wife for pain, and we're like, "God..."

   16. JRJoe Rogan35:52

       Right.

   17. JWJason Wilson35:53

       When he was born, I didn't want to name him Jason, 'cause the name Jason means healer. And if you're a healer-

   18. JRJoe Rogan35:59

       It does?

   19. JWJason Wilson35:59

       Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I know being a healer, it comes with great pain. So you have to be able to identify with people. So I said, "I'm not naming him Jason. I'm gonna name him Jase." When I saw his face and he was crying, I cried so much at the sight of him, the nurses and the doctor were crying. And I heard The Most High say, "His name is Jason. It's gonna be tough, but that's his name." So it brings me to this place in my life where-... I run into people that are hurting. Last night, I'm at a restaurant here, my waitress is smiling the entire time and I'm like, "Wow, she's r- ... That's a ... She's a happy person." But me dealing with people, I know she's smiling 'cause she's hurting. Within seconds of our conversation, her eyes start watering and I say, "What's going on?" I said, "You're hurting, aren't you?" She just ... Her mother died of cancer, it was her best friend. Her father had cancer. Her siblings are all falling out because of that. She's running from job to job, going from state to state to state. She's running from her trauma and I says, "You're gonna have to let go and face it." And I told her, I says, "Don't allow your trauma to time travel." That's what we do. We allow the things in the past to visit our present and so it affects us from living free in the moment. And I hugged her and she really appreciated that I didn't just eat my dinner and walk out. She says, "No one stopped me to say that." And she thanked me. So those things, my man, I just ... All of that cumulated into me creating The Cave. I, I basically, I try, I try to be a healer for, for boys and men, to help you work through what's hurting, to get you past this facade of just always being strong. You know some of the greatest fighters in the world. No one can be strong all the time. You know, we'll say to each other, "Stay strong, bro." We're subconsciously telling each other that when you feel weak, something's wrong with you.

   20. JRJoe Rogan38:14

       Yeah, the facade thing I think is very important for people to hear and talk about-

   21. JWJason Wilson38:17

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan38:17

       ... because men do like to put up that facade that they're never vulnerable, there's never anything wrong. And they ... Everyone knows it's bullshit. You know?

   23. JWJason Wilson38:28

       It is.

   24. JRJoe Rogan38:28

       Other men know it's not true.

   25. JWJason Wilson38:30

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan38:30

       So you're not tricking anybody.

   27. JWJason Wilson38:32

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan38:32

       You know, you just ... You're posturing. And when you're posturing, it's really a weakness. It's ... Your-

   29. JWJason Wilson38:36

       Yes, sir.

   30. JRJoe Rogan38:36

       There's more strength in just being who you are. And just because you have vulnerable moments or just because you're emotional or just because you're sad, it doesn't mean you're weak.
8. 51:18 – 55:53

   Combat composure and de-escalation: empty mind, firearms, and aftermath processing

   1. JWJason Wilson51:18

      you back, it's hard for you to really be in a space where you can respond as... Now you're in a place where you're just reacting to everything. In life, it's the same thing. I try to walk around in a meditative state. So meditation, if I only can sit still and meditate, it's useless for me. I need to know how to use that if someone's trying to rob me. A situation I had at our building with my son, um, a guy... I'm coming out of our building. We just purchased this 15,000 square foot building for a nonprofit. At the time, it had basketball rims, before we built the cave gym for the martial arts. I come out the door (clears throat) and I'm oblivious to my surroundings because I got comfortable. I hear a voice say, "They're trying to kill me." I turn around and it's a guy on a cellphone, a younger guy, maybe in his 20s. And I see my son. I said, "Who is trying to kill you?" He says, "They're coming around the corner." So I draw my firearm. I said, "You're going to bring them around here to my son?" Joe, so this Suburban is coming, three guys in it, I see them clearly. And I'm keeping this guy in my peripheral. So at this entire time, I had to steel my soul so I can have self-control and I can't have any emotions right now. The lock, we hadn't changed it, man. And for me, you know those tricky locks where you have to pull it out a little bit to turn it?

   2. JRJoe Rogan52:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JWJason Wilson52:44

      Imagine a car coming, you don't know if they have guns or not, and they're circling around. And your son, your beloved son is next to you and you need to get him in this building, but you have to steel your nerves enough where you can get that key out just a centimeter and turn that lock.

   4. JRJoe Rogan53:00

      Hmm.

   5. JWJason Wilson53:01

      I got him in and to see my son eyes look at me, he's scared. I said, "Lock the door, go to the back of the building. I'll see you in a minute." I didn't know if that was going to be my last time seeing him, but I couldn't entertain that emotion at that moment. I got in a Weaver's stance when that truck came around and I used, uh, my truck as a barrier just in case they did start shooting. They turned around again and went the other way. So the guy on the phone, man, starts running across the street in their direction. I said, "So you're going to run in the same direction they're going in?" He said, "Well, I'm not... I just got to get away." I said, "Yeah right." I realized at that moment they were trying to steal my truck out front. I was new to the neighborhood. But until I drew my firearm, that's when their plans changed.

   6. JRJoe Rogan53:54

      Hmm.

   7. JWJason Wilson53:54

      But if I had been emotional, say if I could have shot the guy and d- shot before they shot, whatever. You see it all the time. We make so many emotional decisions, now we're doing life in prison. Or a situation in Michigan where two road ragers get into an argument with their families, man. They both were licensed to carry. They pull over into a car wash and they get out and shoot and kill each other in front of their families.

   8. JRJoe Rogan54:20

      Hmm.

   9. JWJason Wilson54:21

      And so I wrote about that because I ask men, "How would you feel in that moment? You're dying in your own blood. You're laying there. What would you think? Would you say, 'Was it really worth it? Was my ego worth protecting?'" And these two men died, unfortunately. It was a tragic story. But I wish there was a way as men we could learn how to just deescalate a situation.

   10. JRJoe Rogan54:50

       Deescalate, yeah.

   11. JWJason Wilson54:50

       And so to your point about being in a empty space and, and not allowing the emotions to rule you, that moment, um...... was just a defining moment for me, even as a teacher, that I practiced what I taught. Then when I went home, my wife says, "Seems like you're not cool." I says, "I'm not. I need to release all that I just went through." I was cool in that moment, but now I'm really overwhelmed emotionally. So now I'm starting to feel, man, my life was in danger. My son, I coulda lost my son. All these emotions-

   12. JRJoe Rogan55:23

       Yeah.

   13. JWJason Wilson55:23

       ... started arising. But I allowed myself to release or reflect on what happened, so that I can release and then reset, man. When we as men, when we allow ourselves that time to do that process, we can respond to what's coming next. But as long as we suppress, and keep suppress-

   14. JRJoe Rogan55:42

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JWJason Wilson55:42

       ... keep suppressing, next thing you know, we're depressed or we're anxious, we're angry when we shouldn't be. So-

   16. JRJoe Rogan55:47

       Right.

   17. JWJason Wilson55:47

       ... when we're at our ca- our capacity is here, you know, if someone could blow the horn at us, now we're cursing them out.

9. 55:53 – 1:01:36

   Reset tools: Shelach meditation (cast and keep), breathing, apology, and repair

   1. JRJoe Rogan55:53

      What do you do to reset if you're in a situation like that, where you just had a life or death situation, and now you're kind of overwhelmed? Are you using meditation?

   2. JWJason Wilson56:03

      Yes. So I, I, I meditate. I breathe. I allow myself just to release what I experienced. So basically if I, I could hold onto it. I say, "Oh, Ma, I'm cool, babe. It wasn't nothing. You know, I'm used to that." I have to release it, maybe even cry if I need to in some situations. I sit alone and cry. I pray, of course. I, I ask God's spirit to, to move in me, uh, his Holy Spirit to purge away all the trauma that I've experienced, 'cause it, it has helped me to get this far. And then to, again, have the freedom to feel in that moment. Um, breathing is essential. Okay? So when I inhale, I tr- i- in my mind, I'm thinking of everything that's happening. (inhales) Inhale through my abdomen and then exhale. I'm exhaling everything that's negative, that's really affecting me in a bad way. But I'm very careful, careful during that process, Joe, because some of these things I need to keep. So it's a process we call casting and, excuse me, and keeping, and it's called Shelach Meditation. The word Shelach literally means in Hebrew just to cast away. So there are things that are heavy, like a death of a loved one, or pressure on my job, or marital discord, what it may be, in the moment I may need to cast some things away, but I may need to keep some things. So, say if I was a a-hole to my wife or insensitive to her at a moment during the day, I don't need to just dismiss that because I need to be happy. I need to think on that. Why were you impatient with her? Why did you talk to her that way? Let's stay here for a moment, Jason, and let's dig a little deeper. I was disrespectful because I remember how my father, I saw the way he would talk to my mom. Or I can go recently, uh, I don't think my wife trusts me and something she said offended me and I'm holding it against her. When I release that, I release the negative to that, keep what I need to deal with and reconcile, go to my wife, Nicole, and say, "Hey, I'm sorry for talking to you that way. Uh, please forgive me, you know. You know my intention is not to hurt you." My day is completely better, man.

   3. JRJoe Rogan58:13

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JWJason Wilson58:14

      I, I... Like, with my wife, I can't... I, I used to c- can go days, man, arguing, you know, or just not speaking. Then I saw it as something children would do. Why would I go longer than some hours not talking to my wife?

   5. JRJoe Rogan58:29

      Right.

   6. JWJason Wilson58:29

      That's what children do. But as men, when we're not used to becoming verbal processors, we don't really know how to express what we're thinking in a way that doesn't come off combative.

   7. JRJoe Rogan58:40

      Right. Right. And a lot of men do feel like it is weak to express those emotions and to admit fault.

   8. JWJason Wilson58:46

      Yeah. Or, you know, I was telling, uh, the nurse out there, I ca- She was really cool, by the way. It's hard for me to hold my wife's hand to this day in public, because of the way I grew up, you know?

   9. JRJoe Rogan58:57

      Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah.

   10. JWJason Wilson58:58

       Yeah. So guys will rush you and test you. "What you doing with her?" (laughs) "She too good. She look too good for you." That affected me. That affected me, man.

   11. JRJoe Rogan59:05

       Right.

   12. JWJason Wilson59:05

       And I'm like... So I... And my wife is hilarious. I say, "Look, when I'm out in public," I said, "can you remind me to hold your hand?" She said, "What good is that a- I mean, it's not sincere-"

   13. JRJoe Rogan59:16

       (laughs)

   14. JWJason Wilson59:16

       ... "if I have to remind you." I say, "Nicole, I'm asking you 'cause I need help. I need you to say, 'Jay, you told me that when we're out in public to remind you to hold my hand.'"

   15. JRJoe Rogan59:27

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JWJason Wilson59:29

       Here's an opportunity. It's literally a war going on s- inside of me, Joe. "Don't hold her hand, man. You'll be weak. Remember what your brothers taught you growing up. She'll use it against you." And then the other side of me... It's like the cartoon you see, the good and bad angel on the shoulder.

   17. JRJoe Rogan59:44

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JWJason Wilson59:44

       But the good in me says, "Love her. Love her from your heart. Caress her. Be romantic." It's like going back and forth. Then eventually I'm like, "Uh, ah, ah, okay."

   19. JRJoe Rogan59:56

       (laughs)

   20. JWJason Wilson59:56

       "Okay. Let's go." I mean, seriously, that's what it is for me.

   21. JRJoe Rogan59:58

       That's funny, 'cause you're dealing with just old thoughts.

   22. JWJason Wilson1:00:01

       I let my trauma-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:00:03

       Yeah.

   24. JWJason Wilson1:00:03

       ... time travel.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JWJason Wilson1:00:04

       And I had to stop that.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

       Yeah.

   28. JWJason Wilson1:00:06

       And it's a process. Men say, "Well, man, how did, how did you get here?" I said, "Man, I'm a work in progress, man." That's why I stay transparent on social media. Um-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:00:14

       Yeah. All of us are, right?

   30. JWJason Wilson1:00:16

       Uh, yeah, I'm trying to grow. I don't want you to look at me like I've got it. I don't. I'm, I'm aiming for that. It's a constant continuous process of growing-
10. 1:01:36 – 1:15:35

    Compassion fatigue and self-care for helpers (guitar, floating, neurofeedback)

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

       What's heavy about it, when you say it's a heavy weight?

    2. JWJason Wilson1:01:38

       The compassion fatigue, man. Meaning-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:01:40

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JWJason Wilson1:01:40

       ... um, that's what nurses experience, or doctors, at war. When you're constantly taking in trauma or people who are heartbroken, like the waitress last night, my heart, man, it breaks for people. So when you really care or you love hard, like I do, you, you get worn out.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:01:59

       Yeah.

    6. JWJason Wilson1:02:00

       And then, you know... I'm not religious, man. I'm not... Y- y- that tradit- all that stuff, I- I'm experiential with Yahusha or Yeshua, Jesus, who they call Jesus. I, I live it. You know my faith by what I do, not by what I say.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:02:17

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JWJason Wilson1:02:18

       And so because I do it, I take on a lot, man. And my wife, thank God I have her, she prays for me, she covers me, I can cry to her. She caresses my scalp because she knows I'm constantly under attack spiritually. I could build a rocket ship out of wood, no gas, and it'd... I have no difficulty in doing it. But let me try to teach, train, and transform boys. Let me try to stop a man from divorcing his wife or, uh, abusing his wife. Let me try to help, uh, uh, men, uh, express themselves in good ways, where they're no longer toxic to society.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:03:03

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JWJason Wilson1:03:04

        I catch it every day.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:03:07

        What do you do to try to mitigate that? What do you do to try to relax when you are dealing with sort of the compassion fatigue, when you're, you're... I mean, you're on... Obviously, you're on a path-

    12. JWJason Wilson1:03:17

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:03:18

        ... and that path resonates. It's why I reached out to you.

    14. JWJason Wilson1:03:21

        Yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:03:21

        It... I, I watch your videos and I see your sincerity.

    16. JWJason Wilson1:03:25

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:03:25

        And I see that you're really accomplishing something, you're really reaching people. So what do you do to sort of, like, relieve some of the pressure on yourself and to relax?

    18. JWJason Wilson1:03:35

        Um, I love the guitar, you know. I, I-

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:03:37

        Oh, okay.

    20. JWJason Wilson1:03:38

        Yeah, I want to really be proficient in it. Um, it, it relaxes me, man. I can sit out in my driveway and I just play just a certain melody over and over again.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:03:46

        Mm-hmm.

    22. JWJason Wilson1:03:47

        And then when the birds chirp, it's just... I, I, I love just nature. Um, the beginning of... Was it Gladiator?

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:03:55

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JWJason Wilson1:03:56

        Uh, yeah, when he was walking-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:03:57

        Right.

    26. JWJason Wilson1:03:57

        ... through the fields. And so I had never seen the movie till a friend of mine says, "That's you." I said, "What do you mean?" You're in a constant war, but your desire is to be at peace in this environment. And so you saw him just running through the fields, just rubbing his hand through... What was it? Like, uh...

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:04:16

        Wheat.

    28. JWJason Wilson1:04:17

        Wheat, yes.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:04:17

        Yeah.

    30. JWJason Wilson1:04:18

        That's me, Joe. I, I want that simple life. Like, if I could just work at a hardware store, I used to own a construction company, I love building. I just work at a hardware store, get off work, go home and love my family, I'm happy. But I know I'm called to something much deeper. And, um, it chokes me up now, uh-uh, 'cause it's not easy doing what you don't want to do, because you want His will done through you. Um, I never chased anything, man. We got a, a documentary coming out on my life. I signed with Laurence Fishburne's film company. When the video went viral, producer named Roy Bank reached out. He was like, "Man, this... The world needs to see this." I don't want all that attention, man. You know, it's going to be on one of the major platforms early next year. I don't want that.
11. 1:15:35 – 1:38:57

    Aging, injuries, and rebuilding durability (knees, back, and smart training)

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:15:35

       Yeah.

    2. JWJason Wilson1:15:35

       "Keep going." The training, so much has been taken away from me, Joe (sniffs) . Um, my mother, my friends, my brothers. Um, I love martial arts. Um, torn meniscus. Uh, my fibula head is unstable. It pops out when I'm in a kneeling position. The pain. It's like, "My God." You know what I'm saying? It's like these things I love, and it's like, "Focus on what you can do."

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:16:04

       Your fibular head is unstable?

    4. JWJason Wilson1:16:06

       Yes.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:16:06

       And w- what is, uh, what happens?

    6. JWJason Wilson1:16:08

       So, when I get to a low position, just say if you're grappling-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:16:11

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JWJason Wilson1:16:12

       ... or if you're just in a kneeling position, soon as I stand up, man, it just pops out a socket.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:16:17

       Hmm.

    10. JWJason Wilson1:16:17

        And then it pops back in. (sniffs) And-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:16:20

        When, when you look at the structure of the knee, where's the damage at?

    12. JWJason Wilson1:16:24

        It's, um, right on the side. You know, where the ... Uh, I- it's just a f- Right on the side of the knee, the fibula head-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:16:30

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JWJason Wilson1:16:30

        ... is right there, and so ... But the meniscus is torn, but that there, it makes it worse. And then I have, I forgot, a Baker cyst as well, which one therapist believes that is causing a lot. And so-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:16:41

        Yeah, I'm sure. The cyst is ... So what ... The cyst is, is bleeding inside. A lot of that happens from a meniscus tear.

    16. JWJason Wilson1:16:47

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:16:48

        Um, so you can get that drained. I've had cysts drained. I've, I've had my right knee drained, like, 15 times.

    18. JWJason Wilson1:16:55

        Okay.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:16:55

        Uh, I tore my meniscus a couple years ago in my right knee and I had it drained a bunch of times. Doesn't, doesn't happen anymore.

    20. JWJason Wilson1:17:02

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:17:02

        It's, it's sort of stopped. I had a bunch of stem cell shots in there.

    22. JWJason Wilson1:17:05

        Okay.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:17:05

        But, uh, you can do some things to strengthen the knee that'll keep it from, uh, being so instable. There's a, uh ... I'm bringing this guy up again. I bring him up all the time. Uh, KneesOverToesGuy on Instagram has a amazing, um, workout. You ever seen him?

    24. JWJason Wilson1:17:21

        I got that from you. (laughs)

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:17:22

        Yeah, there you go. (laughs)

    26. JWJason Wilson1:17:24

        (laughs) And I've, I-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:17:24

        He's amazing.

    28. JWJason Wilson1:17:25

        Y- Yeah, he is.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:17:25

        I did that today. I did his workout this morning, actually.

    30. JWJason Wilson1:17:28

        And, and i- it works, man. You know?

Episode duration: 2:56:23