Joe Rogan Experience #1754 - Suzanne Santo

1. 0:00 – 1:33

   Coping with “the wildest times”: anxiety, pressure, and Twitter as an accelerant

   1. SSSuzanne Santo0:00

      (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music) So-

   4. SSSuzanne Santo0:13

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      Jayme's cool. So-

   6. SSSuzanne Santo0:15

      Cheers. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Cheers, my friend. So good to see you.

   8. SSSuzanne Santo0:17

      You too. (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Mm. These are the wildest of times.

   10. SSSuzanne Santo0:21

       Oh my God. (sighs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       The wildest, right?

   12. SSSuzanne Santo0:24

       Ah, I have no words for it. I, every day.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       No one does. It, the, and your words change-

   14. SSSuzanne Santo0:29

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       And, you know, you see a lot of people that are trying to, uh, say things because they want to assure themselves.

   16. SSSuzanne Santo0:36

       Mm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       And then they wanna find other people that agree with them.

   18. SSSuzanne Santo0:38

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       That's why, like, Twitter is such a dangerous thing-

   20. SSSuzanne Santo0:40

       Oh, forget it.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       ... for people who are mentally unstable during these trying times.

   22. SSSuzanne Santo0:43

       I, you watch people lose their minds.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       Yeah.

   24. SSSuzanne Santo0:45

       Well, it's a form of escapism.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       It is, but it's also, um, they're, they're trying to find some stability in, in a time where there is no stability. And there's some people that are very uncomfortable with, uh, the unknown. They're very uncomfortable with things being, like, in a state of flux.

   26. SSSuzanne Santo1:02

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02

       They don't, they don't know how this is gonna work out.

   28. SSSuzanne Santo1:04

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:04

       And they get serious anxiety. You know, 'cause some people, they just, they're just not good under pressure.

   30. SSSuzanne Santo1:10

       Correct.
2. 1:33 – 7:53

   Solitude as a reset: touring stops, “unpacking baggage,” and finding love in Austin

   1. SSSuzanne Santo1:33

      "Are you gonna freak out?" And I have, like, a, a nice bandwidth for my, you know, understanding with myself. So I've, I went through all that last year. Like, I, I really, like, you know, I didn't tour at all in 2020. And so, like, I was alone a lot, and I had to, like, work on some shit.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:54

      Yeah, that's rough.

   3. SSSuzanne Santo1:55

      And, and you know what's interesting is, um, I, I did this thing where I, like, figured some stuff out. 'Cause like, when you're on the road, you know, you can just like leave your shit. Like, you're just busy. Like, what's in front of you is, is a show.

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:09

      Right.

   5. SSSuzanne Santo2:09

      And you're entertaining, and you have ... And you're exhausted. You don't sleep that much. And it's go, go, go, go, go. And then when, like, time stopped last year, I was like, "Oh man, I got all this baggage." (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:20

      (laughs)

   7. SSSuzanne Santo2:20

      I gotta unpack it, and I don't want to. But I did.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:24

      Yeah.

   9. SSSuzanne Santo2:24

      And it was, it was like kind of profound. And when I decided to move to Austin, I, that was like part of this thing that I just discovered of, like, great change that needed to take place in my life. And then I'm, I, I mean, I, I met the love of my life when I got here, which is crazy, because I had just signed on to this autonomous plan of not dating anyone for nine months. Like, I'd ... And like I did it for a couple of months, and it was awesome. It was like the best I'd ever felt. Like, making sure it was just me. No one's ... I'm not letting anybody in. This is ... I've got something I have to do. And then when I stopped caring about it is when I, like the stars aligned, if you will. And I, I feel that way about the anxiety around my career. Like, the more I'm like, "I have no control over what's happening. They cancel my shows, whatever." You know? Like, I was getting really sad about it. I was getting really anxious and depressed. And then, like, the more I'm just, like you said earlier, you know, uh, this challenge of, of what I can't do, like, it's actually kinda nice. I'm just letting it go. I, I'll take what I can get, you know?

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:39

       I see what you're saying.

   11. SSSuzanne Santo3:40

       You know?

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:41

       It's like you found, like, a balance in yourself.

   13. SSSuzanne Santo3:44

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:44

       And then you may- met someone.

   15. SSSuzanne Santo3:46

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       Like, that's, that's like the ... If you talk to, like, a psychologist ... Clearly, I'm not one of those.

   17. SSSuzanne Santo3:50

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:51

       But if you could-

   19. SSSuzanne Santo3:51

       Wait, what?

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:52

       ... I would give you some bad advice.

   21. SSSuzanne Santo3:53

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:53

       I'd give, I'd be like, "Fucking suck it up."

   23. SSSuzanne Santo3:55

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:55

       That'd, that'd be the worst psychologist ever. But I, I think they would all tell you that that's when you're gonna make your healthiest choices, because you's comfortable with yourself.

   25. SSSuzanne Santo4:04

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan4:04

       It's like when people get desperate.

   27. SSSuzanne Santo4:05

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan4:06

       Right? Like, what, that's one of the things, like, you, an attractive person could be desperate and it makes them unattractive.

   29. SSSuzanne Santo4:11

       Totally.

   30. JRJoe Rogan4:12

       It's the weirdest thing about-
3. 7:53 – 9:25

   Mandates, digital passports, and the vaccine debate vs. personal agency

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:53

      You just can't give up control. The- the- the thing that everybody's worried about now is, uh, us moving into some sort of a digital social passport system.

   2. SSSuzanne Santo8:03

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:03

      That is 100% possible. That can happen.

   4. SSSuzanne Santo8:07

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:07

      We have to be really careful about that. And people are like, "Why would that be such a bad idea?" Because you can't-

   6. SSSuzanne Santo8:11

      Who says that? (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:12

      People do. People are saying it.

   8. SSSuzanne Santo8:14

      Oh, God. It's terrifying.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:14

      The- the same people that don't... Look, regardless of how you feel about vaccines-

   10. SSSuzanne Santo8:19

       I was never a bunker person 'til now. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:19

       Regardless of how you fear- feel about vaccines-

   12. SSSuzanne Santo8:21

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:21

       ... the real problem is having a mandate. The real problem is telling someone you have to do something.

   14. SSSuzanne Santo8:26

       Correct.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:26

       Even if you're right, the real problem is telling someone that they have to do something.

   16. SSSuzanne Santo8:30

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:32

       Uh, and this one's a weird one.

   18. SSSuzanne Santo8:33

       Especially when there's no proof that any of this works.

   19. JRJoe Rogan8:36

       Well-

   20. SSSuzanne Santo8:36

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:36

       ... there's- there's proof that it works. It definitely-

   22. SSSuzanne Santo8:39

       Well-

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       It def- the vaccines, when they're working on people, definitely seem to improve their outcomes.

   24. SSSuzanne Santo8:44

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:44

       They definitely make whatever the, uh-

   26. SSSuzanne Santo8:46

       That, that is true.

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:47

       ... the i- the illness is, they make it less severe, c- but so does being in shape.

   28. SSSuzanne Santo8:53

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:53

       So does having a high level of vitamin D. I'm not saying it imparts the same amount of protection, but it's- it's a protection that's ignored. Like, they've n- they know now and they've known for a while that COVID attacks fat cells.

   30. SSSuzanne Santo9:03

       Mm-hmm.
4. 9:25 – 12:50

   The “health pandemic”: obesity, body positivity, and compassion without denial

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:25

      We should talk about this the same way we talk about all these other pandemics. Let's talk about the pandemic of people just not being healthy.

   2. SSSuzanne Santo9:32

      Yeah, well, you know, that becomes this touchy subject of, like, the way, you know, be yourself is celebrated and, you know, being healthy is anti. It's very weird. It's very backwards.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:43

      The be yourself is celebrated, I get it, because here's the thing. Most people that are, like, severely overweight or, like... I'm, again, not a psychologist, but I would h- I would say there's issues-

   4. SSSuzanne Santo9:55

      Absolutely.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:56

      ... other than just the physical-

   6. SSSuzanne Santo9:57

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:58

      ... that, like, make you wanna eat that much food.

   8. SSSuzanne Santo10:00

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:00

      Right? It's- it's a crazy addiction. What, I mean, it's... And I don't think it's much different than all the other ones, the gambling ones or what- whatever-

   10. SSSuzanne Santo10:07

       Sure.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:07

       ... whatever drug ones.

   12. SSSuzanne Santo10:08

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:08

       It's a similar thing, I think.

   14. SSSuzanne Santo10:09

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:10

       And you can't just expect people to fix it on their own. So this whole, like, you know, you're okay being you movement-

   16. SSSuzanne Santo10:16

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan10:16

       ... you're beautiful as you are move- it's good-

   18. SSSuzanne Santo10:18

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan10:19

       ... psychologically for these people 'cause the, the conceit is that these people are damaged, right? That something's wrong. That's why you're- you've eaten all this horrible food, whether it's something's wrong with ed- e- education wise or whether there's something wrong emotionally. Like-

   20. SSSuzanne Santo10:32

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan10:32

       ... someone hurt your feelings and, and put-

   22. SSSuzanne Santo10:34

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan10:34

       ... you in a bad place in life or you grew up in-

   24. SSSuzanne Santo10:37

       Well-

   25. JRJoe Rogan10:37

       ... a household that's shitty or that has-

   26. SSSuzanne Santo10:39

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan10:40

       ... poor food choices and-

   28. SSSuzanne Santo10:41

       Mm-hmm.

   29. JRJoe Rogan10:42

       ... whatever the fucking thing is. Obviously, you and I are different than those folks.

   30. SSSuzanne Santo10:46

       Mm-hmm.
5. 12:50 – 16:39

   Sugar hangovers, “you juice,” and the pizza-bliss baby (plus food culture traps)

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:50

      But let them figure it out on their own. But the most important thing is, like, get everybody fucking doing something. You know, I, I've realized this just over the last few days, 'cause, you know, over Christmas break, my family was over and-

   2. SSSuzanne Santo13:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan13:01

      ... there was a lot of food, and I ate, like, a whole pie.

   4. SSSuzanne Santo13:05

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan13:05

      I ate-

   6. SSSuzanne Santo13:06

      What kind of pie?

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:06

      I ate so much.

   8. SSSuzanne Santo13:07

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:07

      I ate so much. I ate everything.

   10. SSSuzanne Santo13:09

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:09

       I ate pumpkin, I ate cherry.

   12. SSSuzanne Santo13:12

       So you ate more than one pie?

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:13

       Oh, no, I ate a lot.

   14. SSSuzanne Santo13:14

       Like, collectively. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:16

       I... Suzanne, I have a real problem with food.

   16. SSSuzanne Santo13:18

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:18

       So I understand people that are overweight.

   18. SSSuzanne Santo13:19

       Yeah, but you've got the metabolism of a dragon, so you're fine. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:23

       (laughs) But I work it off, and I do also, I trick... I do little tricks, like, I don't eat for, like, you know, 24 hours after I eat something horrible like that.

   20. SSSuzanne Santo13:31

       Oh, you fast. Oh, I see, yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:32

       I let it burn through my system.

   22. SSSuzanne Santo13:33

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:33

       But I'm so stupid, because I pay the punishment. Like, it felt like shit.

   24. SSSuzanne Santo13:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:37

       For the rest of the day, I felt like shit.

   26. SSSuzanne Santo13:39

       Did you get a headache or anything? Like the sugar stuff?

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:41

       I just was exhausted.

   28. SSSuzanne Santo13:42

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan13:42

       I was like, ugh.

   30. SSSuzanne Santo13:43

       Yeah, I felt gross too.
6. 16:39 – 21:28

   Gluten, modified flour, and why kids feel joy (and take compliments) so freely

   1. SSSuzanne Santo16:39

      You know, I was just telling my man yesterday, I, I said, "I never order pizza." Uh, and I grew up, you know, my family owned an Italian restaurant, so we had pizza, like, four times a week, and pasta, and, and it was part of our, our lives. Um, but I always had stomachaches. (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:56

      (laughs)

   3. SSSuzanne Santo16:57

      But I'd still eat it. And, like, you know, my mom would be like, "You're faking." I'd be like, "No, my stomach really hurts." And, and to this day, uh, if I... If... I don't... If I have, like, that white bleach flour gluten-

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SSSuzanne Santo17:09

      ... you know, in a pizza or a burrito, I'm totally fucked.

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:14

      (laughs)

   7. SSSuzanne Santo17:14

      I'm just... I'm like... I'm not... I'm, like, incapacitated for a few hours.

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:18

      It's glue.

   9. SSSuzanne Santo17:19

      I know.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       It's glue.

   11. SSSuzanne Santo17:20

       But it's so good.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       You're eating glue. (laughs)

   13. SSSuzanne Santo17:22

       Yeah, I know. So, you know, I, I realized that, like, there was this time in my life where I ate that stuff all the time, and I love it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:29

       Yeah.

   15. SSSuzanne Santo17:30

       But it's just, you know... If I, if I want to suffer, I will eat it. Um, and I'll probably enjoy it for a minute before it all goes downhill. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:39

       Have you ever had any of that, there's a certain kind of grain...

   17. SSSuzanne Santo17:42

       I can do some gluten-free sometimes. It's okay.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:44

       But there's a certain type of gluten.

   19. SSSuzanne Santo17:46

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:46

       There's a certain type of, uh, flour. What is it called? Double O flour? Is that what it's called? There's like... It's a non-genetically modified flour.

   21. SSSuzanne Santo17:54

       Okay.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:54

       Now, again, I'm a moron, but I've... Uh, but, uh, Mayor Keenan told me this.

   23. SSSuzanne Santo18:00

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:01

       And, uh, he, he actually grows food. He grows wine and makes his own wine and shit.

   25. SSSuzanne Santo18:05

       Oh, okay. Excellent.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       Yeah, he's got, uh, like a vineyard, ............................

   27. SSSuzanne Santo18:07

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:07

       He knows his shit.

   29. SSSuzanne Santo18:08

       That's amazing.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       And he said that essentially what used to happen was, they used to have, like, a very low yield grain.
7. 21:28 – 29:02

   Early independence and real danger: modeling, Tokyo, and childhood predator instincts

   1. SSSuzanne Santo21:28

      But I was always upfront about my bad stuff. I think that's why I'm so close with my parents. Like, I moved to New York City when I was 16, and I was on my own when I was 17. And they were like, "We believe in you. Go get it." (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:40

      Jesus Christ.

   3. SSSuzanne Santo21:40

      And like, you know, I was like going to bars and stuff and, you know-

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:45

      That's so crazy.

   5. SSSuzanne Santo21:46

      I-

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:46

      17.

   7. SSSuzanne Santo21:47

      They, they let me go to Tokyo when I was 16 for six weeks.

   8. JRJoe Rogan21:49

      Holy shit.

   9. SSSuzanne Santo21:50

      And I, um, 'cause I, I used to be a model when I was a teenager. And like, I look back and I'm like, "I, I can't believe they let me go." Like, you know, I didn't... Let me turn this down 'cause it's buzzing. Um.

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:02

       Yeah.

   11. SSSuzanne Santo22:03

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan22:03

       If everybody's like, "Something wrong with fucking Jamie?" It's not Jamie's fault.

   13. SSSuzanne Santo22:06

       That was me. That was me and, like-

   14. NANarrator22:07

       We wouldn't need it.

   15. JRJoe Rogan22:07

       We, we were gonna start out-

   16. SSSuzanne Santo22:08

       It's me and my practice amp.

   17. NANarrator22:09

       We wouldn't have made it to the mix.

   18. SSSuzanne Santo22:09

       Well, I'll sing in a little bit. Um.

   19. JRJoe Rogan22:11

       You know what? Would you?

   20. NANarrator22:11

       It wouldn't have made it to the mix.

   21. SSSuzanne Santo22:13

       No.

   22. NANarrator22:13

       I could have taken that out.

   23. SSSuzanne Santo22:14

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan22:14

       You could have?

   25. NANarrator22:15

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan22:15

       Really? Oh.

   27. SSSuzanne Santo22:15

       You're such a pro.

   28. JRJoe Rogan22:16

       He's a pro.

   29. SSSuzanne Santo22:17

       I know.

   30. JRJoe Rogan22:17

       The mix.
8. 29:02 – 33:30

   Human trafficking horror stories and why “rare” doesn’t mean impossible

   1. JRJoe Rogan29:02

      When I think about that time, uh, when I was in the library, um, you know, as an adult thinking back on it, like, how crazy it is that someone got to a point where they were essentially my age or maybe even a little younger. I don't, I don't remember how old the guy was. He might've been in his 20s from, for all I know. I was a little kid.

   2. SSSuzanne Santo29:18

      Mm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:18

      It just, it was just a man, you know?

   4. SSSuzanne Santo29:20

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:21

      Like, that, that kinda person exists where they go to places where kids hang out and they try to catch strays.

   6. SSSuzanne Santo29:27

      Crazy.

   7. JRJoe Rogan29:27

      They try to catch some stray kid that's not under protection, that's not-

   8. SSSuzanne Santo29:31

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan29:31

      ... under the watchful eye of a parent-

   10. SSSuzanne Santo29:32

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:32

       ... just wandering around.

   12. SSSuzanne Santo29:33

       Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, like, that's our version of, like, we have this version of bad guys but, like, you know, you go to Europe and, like, the abductions and, like, human trafficking is, like, through the roof.

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:45

       Yeah, it's, uh, terrifying-

   14. SSSuzanne Santo29:47

       It is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:47

       ... because they find people in basements and shit-

   16. SSSuzanne Santo29:50

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan29:50

       And like, there was a, a woman who just got, um, r- she, though she was missing and they found her in a basement. So you can find the story. They found her in a basement covered in coal. Like, some guy had grabbed her and, and put her in his fucking basement. I think-

   18. SSSuzanne Santo30:04

       Oh my God.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:04

       ... she was gone for a couple days.

   20. SSSuzanne Santo30:07

       You know, I-

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:07

       What is the, what is the story? What is the, um...

   22. SSSuzanne Santo30:12

       I think the world is different. I mean, in-

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:14

       Look at this. Missing Utah college student found alive and covered in coal in man's basement. Utah college student was found nearly 90 miles from campus in the home of a man who has been charged with kidnapping and rape, police said. Holy fucking shit.

   24. SSSuzanne Santo30:30

       How long was she there? Did it say? Well, you know-

   25. JRJoe Rogan30:34

       Five day manhunt for missing 19-year-old college student concluded with police finding her alive after a harrowing ordeal. A Utah man is now in custody. Holy shit.

   26. SSSuzanne Santo30:45

       I mean-

   27. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       She was found naked and covered in coal in a coal storage area of a home in Loa, Utah on December 18th.Oh my god.

   28. SSSuzanne Santo30:55

       You remember, um, (tongue clicks) the girls in Cleveland. I mean, not to keep this ... This is pretty dark. We're having a dark conversation here, but I was home when they were found.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:02

       Right, there was like 10 girls in a-

   30. SSSuzanne Santo31:04

       Th- thr- three girls.
9. 33:30 – 37:34

   Live music interlude: Suzanne performs “Mercy” (childhood darkness, change, forgiveness)

   1. SSSuzanne Santo33:30

      Oh, man. Well, you wanna hear a song?

   2. JRJoe Rogan33:33

      Yeah, I do wanna hear a song.

   3. SSSuzanne Santo33:34

      Let's ... I wanna, I wanna-

   4. JRJoe Rogan33:35

      Let's go.

   5. SSSuzanne Santo33:36

      ... change course. How's this? (guitar strumming) Is that too loud? Okay. You know what's funny? This is called Mercy, and your nurse outside, Mercy, what a gem.

   6. JRJoe Rogan33:46

      She's awesome.

   7. SSSuzanne Santo33:50

      Your mama came running out of the house. A wild look in her eyes. You trailed her all the way down the block. 'Til she sat right down and cried. Curtains swaying in every window. Cracked venetian blinds. Yeah, it could be any one of us. With a broken mind. Yeah, it could be any one of us. With a broken mind. And I learned about mercy. I learned about mercy. For everyone else and for myself. I learned about mercy. Yeah, I was just a kid then. Skin to my knees and Woodbury heels. Trying to make a little sense. When my heart got crushed and the cat got killed. It was a mean man down the block. With his "Keep Out" sign and his poisoned milk. How I learned to keep the door locked. The thought of it still gives me chills. And I learned about darkness. I learned about darkness. Heavy like sick or hidden in a kiss. I learned about darkness. Sometimes I don't know how to be. How to shut my mouth, how to let things breathe. And it gets so hard to see. But my history's standing in front of me. (singing) I always fought with my sisters. White knuckling on since, hands full of blisters. They felt like strangers. They still do now, but sometimes they're saviors. Sometimes they're saviors. And I learned about changing. I learned about changing.Win some and you lose some. You cry about things that used to be fun, but you're changing. Yeah, we're changing. Yeah, we're changing.

   8. JRJoe Rogan37:25

      That's beautiful.

   9. SSSuzanne Santo37:31

      (laughs) Thanks.

   10. JRJoe Rogan37:31

       I like it.

   11. SSSuzanne Santo37:32

       Thank you. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan37:34

       It's some new shit. I love it.

10. 37:34 – 41:45

    Gary Clark Jr., Antone’s, tour bubbles, and Austin’s music ecosystem

    1. SSSuzanne Santo37:34

       Some new shit. You know, I just played, uh, at Antone's here in Austin-

    2. JRJoe Rogan37:38

       I love that place.

    3. SSSuzanne Santo37:39

       ... with, uh, Gary's whole band.

    4. JRJoe Rogan37:41

       Oh, shit.

    5. SSSuzanne Santo37:41

       It was so much fun. And then, um, he and Nicole were there, so we, we snapped-

    6. JRJoe Rogan37:46

       That was the 15th, right?

    7. SSSuzanne Santo37:47

       The 15th. Yeah, it was fun. Um-

    8. JRJoe Rogan37:49

       I had a gig, otherwise I would have been there too.

    9. SSSuzanne Santo37:51

       Oh, we got Gary to stay in with us.

    10. JRJoe Rogan37:52

        Oh, really?

    11. SSSuzanne Santo37:53

        Yeah, so it was just-

    12. JRJoe Rogan37:53

        When, when you guys did Midnight Rider that one time-

    13. SSSuzanne Santo37:55

        You love it, but don't play it. You'll get in trouble again. (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan37:58

        ... I fucking love it. I know-

    15. SSSuzanne Santo37:58

        (laughs)

    16. JRJoe Rogan37:59

        I don't know if we'll get in trouble now that we're on Spotify. I think we can get away with it.

    17. SSSuzanne Santo38:02

        (laughs)

    18. JRJoe Rogan38:02

        We got in trouble over on YouTube. They were, they were upset about it.

    19. SSSuzanne Santo38:04

        No, I love, I love, love playing with Gary. Uh, he's just so cool.

    20. JRJoe Rogan38:10

        Yeah, he's so cool. But the two of you guys together, I'm telling you-

    21. SSSuzanne Santo38:13

        It's fun.

    22. JRJoe Rogan38:14

        ... that is a wild combination. You guys should record some shit for sure.

    23. SSSuzanne Santo38:18

        We're, you know, we, we've been-

    24. JRJoe Rogan38:19

        You must.

    25. SSSuzanne Santo38:19

        ... hanging out in the studio a little bit.

    26. JRJoe Rogan38:21

        You must.

    27. SSSuzanne Santo38:21

        It's been fun. It's been fun.

    28. JRJoe Rogan38:21

        You must. You two together with his fucking guitar and your voice-

    29. SSSuzanne Santo38:25

        So fun.

    30. JRJoe Rogan38:25

        ... holy shit.
11. 41:45 – 46:38

    Machine time: phone addiction, engagement posting anxiety, and escaping into books & walks

    1. SSSuzanne Santo41:45

       We're just always on the thing and I have discovered that I'm most happy when I'm, uh, I take a lot of walks. I go on long walks, along with working out, okay? Um-

    2. JRJoe Rogan41:57

       (laughs)

    3. SSSuzanne Santo41:57

       ... and when I'm, when I'm reading books, like actual books.

    4. JRJoe Rogan42:00

       Oh.

    5. SSSuzanne Santo42:01

       And just like-

    6. JRJoe Rogan42:01

       So you read them while you're walking?

    7. SSSuzanne Santo42:03

       No, no.

    8. JRJoe Rogan42:03

       Or you go book on tape?

    9. SSSuzanne Santo42:03

       Those are, those are two separate experiences.

    10. JRJoe Rogan42:05

        Okay.

    11. SSSuzanne Santo42:06

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan42:06

        Two separate, okay. You can do them at the same time, you know?

    13. SSSuzanne Santo42:08

        But it brings me back to some like reality within myself where I'm not like caught up in a just tornado of emotions from social media or, or my fucking email.

    14. JRJoe Rogan42:19

        Yeah.

    15. SSSuzanne Santo42:19

        Or, or just the news. You know, like you're, the minute I pick this thing up that, that has me on a leash, I feel like I've lost my agency and I never know what's gonna happen. And then I have to collect myself afterwards of like, "Why am I pissed off? Oh, it's 'cause my followers went down." Or like something stupid-

    16. JRJoe Rogan42:37

        Oh right.

    17. SSSuzanne Santo42:37

        ... like that that's just ridiculous and it, it takes away from everything.

    18. JRJoe Rogan42:42

        But the problem with followers is you can see them.

    19. SSSuzanne Santo42:45

        (laughs)

    20. JRJoe Rogan42:45

        You know, like you see the number. It's the kinda craziest thing ever.

    21. SSSuzanne Santo42:48

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan42:48

        Like you, you see a number.

    23. SSSuzanne Santo42:51

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan42:51

        And that, that's one of the reasons why it's so addictive, right?

    25. SSSuzanne Santo42:54

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JRJoe Rogan42:54

        Like the likes, likes are very-

    27. SSSuzanne Santo42:55

        Well, you get your dopamine.

    28. JRJoe Rogan42:56

        Yeah, very addictive.

    29. SSSuzanne Santo42:56

        All that stuff.

    30. JRJoe Rogan42:57

        Very addictive.
12. 46:38 – 1:02:27

    Nicotine, Juul rules, and the vaping controversy (tainted cartridges vs. real risk)

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       They must be giving out classes. Are you a, a nicotine addict?

    2. SSSuzanne Santo46:41

       No, I just-

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:43

       Is that Juul with marijuana or is Juul-

    4. SSSuzanne Santo46:44

       No, it's a Juul with nicotine.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       Oh.

    6. SSSuzanne Santo46:46

       And I'll, yeah, I guess I am a nicotine addict, uh, sometimes. I could-

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:49

       How long you been doing that?

    8. SSSuzanne Santo46:51

       Uh, a little while.

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:52

       But d-

    10. SSSuzanne Santo46:53

        The thing is-

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:53

        You don't, you don't smoke cigarettes, do you?

    12. SSSuzanne Santo46:55

        I, I-

    13. JRJoe Rogan46:56

        That could roughen up that voice, careful.

    14. SSSuzanne Santo46:57

        I know, it's so bad.

    15. JRJoe Rogan46:58

        Be careful.

    16. SSSuzanne Santo46:58

        Well, this isn't good for my voice either. I didn't know.

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:00

        Very careful. I think that's basically gonna just kill your body.

    18. SSSuzanne Santo47:03

        Do what I fucking do with it. (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:04

        I don't think it, I don't think it's gonna mess up your voice. I think it's just gonna-

    20. SSSuzanne Santo47:06

        Yeah, no, I have rules like-

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:07

        ... kill your neurons. (laughs)

    22. SSSuzanne Santo47:07

        ... I'm gonna put this down in like a week and then I'll just be away, out, no more.

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:11

        I don't, I think it's probably better. You know, the pro-

    24. SSSuzanne Santo47:13

        Better than a cigarette.

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:13

        ... there's a problem, it gets demonized. When something gets demonized, I have to say, okay, is, are they demonizing this because it's actually bad or are they demonizing this because it's a threat to profits for an established company that has a shit ton of money? One of the things that I talked to Adam Curry, you know Adam Curry?

    26. SSSuzanne Santo47:31

        Okay. Yes.

    27. JRJoe Rogan47:32

        You know what he is?

    28. SSSuzanne Santo47:32

        I love No Agenda.

    29. JRJoe Rogan47:33

        He's the best.

    30. SSSuzanne Santo47:34

        Yeah.
13. 1:02:27 – 1:08:00

    Gender fixation, cultural collapse theories, and finding “the taint” (middle ground politics)

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:02:27

       But do you think that this is happening with people with, with, like, this sort of erosion of sexuality in terms of, like... We- we- we have, like, a divide between men and women sometimes in this country-

    2. SSSuzanne Santo1:02:42

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:02:42

       ... for, for whatever weird reason.

    4. SSSuzanne Santo1:02:43

       Sure.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:02:43

       And we also have a bunch of people that don't want to identify as either a man or a woman.

    6. SSSuzanne Santo1:02:47

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:02:48

       And I was talking to, um, uh, uh, someone recently where they were... We were, we were discussing this idea of like, where does, where does l- human biology go to next? If we used to be some sort of cave person and then we eventually became people on the internet, like, where does it go next? 'Cause it's going somewhere.

    8. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:11

       Well, technically from... I, I... Like, we have, like, all the marks of a collapsed society with our obsession with sexuality-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:03:18

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:18

        ... and all the things that are, you know, this-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:03:20

        Do you know who Douglas Murray is?

    12. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:21

        Yeah. I, I...

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:03:22

        Yeah.

    14. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:22

        The Madness-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:03:23

        Brilliant.

    16. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:23

        ... of Crowds.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:03:23

        Yes, amazing.

    18. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:24

        Like, you know, a lot of my life has changed i- in so many ways, but, uh, specifically my politics and my belief in, in, you know, where I was before and where I am now, which is really in the middle. I'm really in the taint of all this stuff. (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:03:40

        I think, I think the taint is where c- where civility lies.

    20. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:43

        It's a good place to be. Well, you know, Douglas Murray, man, The Madness of Crowds is, is, is-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:03:46

        It's gen- it's genius.

    22. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:47

        It's genius.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:03:47

        And, and, um, the thing about Murray is, like, he's got a, an interesting get out of jail free pass too 'cause he's gay.

    24. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:55

        'Cause he's gay and conservative.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:03:56

        And he's-

    26. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:56

        Yeah. (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:03:57

        ... conservative and gay.

    28. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:57

        I know.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:03:57

        They don't know what the fuck to do with him. And, but-

    30. SSSuzanne Santo1:03:59

        Yeah.
14. 1:08:00 – 1:18:09

    Free speech vs. cancellation: tribal outrage, Dave Chappelle, and tech-driven polarization

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:08:00

       And that we also gotta decide that the only way we can do what you do or what I do is freedom. You- you have to be able to just say what you want. You have to be able to go wherever- y- you have to be- you don't have- you can't be tied down for a reason that doesn't totally make sense to some government organization-

    2. SSSuzanne Santo1:08:16

       Well, what I-

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:08:17

       ... that eats your taxes.

    4. SSSuzanne Santo1:08:18

       What I think is ha- you're so right. And what I think is happening is people, um, mostly from societal persuasion and media persuasion, there's all this narcissism and this feeling of your individual suffering is more important or worse than someone else. And so, you gotta speak up and attack this person 'cause they're- they're the culprit, you know.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:08:40

       Yeah.

    6. SSSuzanne Santo1:08:40

       Like Dave Chappelle or something like that. And- and I think that- it- it's interesting to me that, um, nobody can be... Well, first of all, everyone's entitled to their feelings, right? But, like, these days, like, you can't quietly be uncomfortable or sort something out yourself. You know, there has to be this alignment with identity and the way that people are doing it is so divi- divisive. Like, we are divided in so many ways. And, you know, I- I realize that a lot of things I say e- peop- you know, people might not like, and I'm not used to that. Like, I'm a- I love everybody and I don't- I don't like offending people. It makes me uncomfortable and I- I don't- I'm a good person, you know. Uh, but lately I- I've felt, uh, squelched. Like, you know, I can't say what I really feel because, oh my God, this side's not gonna like it. And-

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:09:35

       You just can't be responsible for so many other people's opinion of you. There's nothing you can do about that. You- you- you're entitled to your own opinion, uh, your own opinion of you, and I would assume your own opinion of you evolves as you grow and as you become a different person as you get older in life. Y- the problem with, like, expressing yourself about any controversial subject is you're gonna encounter a bunch of people that were- are deeply unhappy that disagree with you.

    8. SSSuzanne Santo1:10:00

       Yes.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:10:00

       They're gonna lash out at you-

    10. SSSuzanne Santo1:10:02

        Yes.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:10:02

        ... in very personal ways.

    12. SSSuzanne Santo1:10:03

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:10:04

        And, you know, there is a disagreement that can be had and can be have c- had civilly, and I have with friends who are close friends-

    14. SSSuzanne Santo1:10:12

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 3:28:15