Joe Rogan Experience #1783 - Ben Burgis

1. 0:00 – 2:25

   Whiskey gift + Ben’s book premise: cancel culture as a left critique

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. BBBen Burgis0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) All right, cheers, sir.

   4. BBBen Burgis0:14

      Mm-hmm, cheers. (glasses clink) Salut.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Salut. Mm.

   6. BBBen Burgis0:19

      Mm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      So this is for you.

   8. BBBen Burgis0:20

      Oh, thank you so much.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      This is your own ... It's got a little JRE label on the back of it. This is, uh, your own bu- on the side, this little thing.

   10. BBBen Burgis0:27

       Oh, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Um, this is a part of, uh, a thing we did with Fight For The Forgotten.

   12. BBBen Burgis0:31

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Which is, um ... I don't know if you know what that is, but it's a, a charity that my friend, Justin Wren, put together.

   14. BBBen Burgis0:37

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       It's, um ... They build, uh, wells for people in the pygmy, uh, pygmy, um, population in, uh, Uganda and in, um, uh, the Congo as well. And so they did a thing with Buffalo Trace where we picked out one very specific batch and they, they literally gave us a barrel of whiskey. So we have ... It was one giant bottle and then a bunch of these bottles to give out to guests. So there you go.

   16. BBBen Burgis1:03

       Nice. Uh, man, this feels strange. I, uh ... You know, I've got to tell you, in the late '90s, I watched NewsRadio all the time, so, you know, get the, uh ... You know, feels, uh, feels weird having a drink with you.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:14

       Yeah. It feels weird just being me, so ...

   18. BBBen Burgis1:18

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       (laughs) It's weird for p- It's weird for people to feel weird to meet me, so that's, that's odd too.

   20. BBBen Burgis1:25

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       Um, so your book, uh, is, uh, speaks to my heart. Did you bring a copy?

   22. BBBen Burgis1:30

       Uh, I did not.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:31

       You have a book with you.

   24. BBBen Burgis1:32

       No, I have a book with me.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       Oh.

   26. BBBen Burgis1:33

       This is, uh ... This is a book by my friend Adolph Reed. Uh-

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       Oh.

   28. BBBen Burgis1:37

       So it's, um, about growing up in New Orleans under Jim Crow and, like, kind of how the South and the country has changed and how it hasn't changed. So, uh-

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:47

       Mm.

   30. BBBen Burgis1:47

       This is good stuff, but, uh ...
2. 2:25 – 4:37

   Outrage as the business model: mainstream media collapse and audience pandering

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:25

      Well, the most important thing in the world in media is ratings. And unfortunately, outrage is what sells. And, uh, if you could be upset at something, and so there's like a perfect storm with me. First of all, it was, uh, questioning the COVID narrative, and then it was having on doctors-

   2. BBBen Burgis2:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:44

      ... who also questioned the COVID narrative, and then it was me getting COVID and recovering very quickly but taking the wrong medication in their eyes.

   4. BBBen Burgis2:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:52

      And then it was, you know, like posting up the "Brought to you by Pfizer" videos and, like, showing, like, these, these people are, like, bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies. And then it's all the other things. It's like e- every, uh, clip that we talked about before the podcast.

   6. BBBen Burgis3:07

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:07

      Like, every clip that I've ever said taken out of context, and if you smoosh them all together, how horrible it looks. But it's not really ... It's, it's not really that they think it's important.

   8. BBBen Burgis3:19

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:19

      It's they don't give a fuck what's important. They're just trying to stay alive and they're trying to get as many views as possible, and they're trying to escape what is, uh, this undeniable demise-

   10. BBBen Burgis3:34

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:34

       ... of modern mainstream news.

   12. BBBen Burgis3:36

       Well, that's the ... Yeah, we were talking about this a little bit before, uh, before we started, and I think what's really ... I mean, whatever. This is not like a mind-shatteringly original insight or whatever, you know? Lots of people have said this. But I think what's really gone on is that the economic collapse of traditional media has meant that the profit incentive now is just to cater to whoever you have left, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:57

       Yeah.

   14. BBBen Burgis3:57

       So, so if you have, you know ... Like, if you're on Fox then, like, you know, whatever, like, couple million conservative old people are, you know, watching-

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:05

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BBBen Burgis4:05

       ... at any given time. You want to give them the narrative that's going to keep them scared and angry and watching the news. If you're on MSNBC, then, you know, you spend the entire Trump years talking about Russia, you know, 'cause, like, that's what ... Like, that's what scares their audience.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:17

       Yeah.

   18. BBBen Burgis4:18

       Uh, and, uh, people don't ... Um, you know, and one thing that, that really disturbs me about this ... I mean, like, the book is about all of the things that people who I basically agree with are getting wrong, right? So in other words, like, I'm a socialist, I'm a columnist for Jacobin magazine. I-

3. 4:37 – 6:22

   What kind of socialist? Democratic socialism, inequality, and universal services

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:37

      Are you a straight-up socialist or are you democratic socialist? 'Cause I know that you, you've been represented as a democratic socialist.

   2. BBBen Burgis4:43

      Yeah, I-

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:43

      Like, what do you ... What is-

   4. BBBen Burgis4:44

      So, I mean, look, the reason I put democratic in there, right? You know, which, um ... You know, which I, which I do, but, you know, the reason I put democratic in there is because there are obviously countries that have existed that have, you know, called themselves socialist that have, um, you know, not had things that I care about, like, you know, free speech and, you know, multiparty elections and, and-

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:03

      Yeah.

   6. BBBen Burgis5:03

      And so I certainly don't want to associate myself with that. But, look, I mean, short term, I care very much about, you know, having, you know, socialized healthcare, about, uh, about having, you know, like, tuition-free higher education so people can go to school without being ... Having to be in debt for, like, decades, which is obscene. Uh-

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:23

      Obscene.

   8. BBBen Burgis5:23

      I m- I mean, that's ridiculous. But-

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:25

      Yeah, I'm with you 100% on both those things.

   10. BBBen Burgis5:27

       You know? And, um, and I do think that, like, the le- the level of inequality that we get from our current system is indefensible. That, in other words, uh, that if one person has more than another just because they, like, chose to work harder, then, like, that's one thing, right? I can ... You know, like-

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:47

       Right.

   12. BBBen Burgis5:47

       That, you know, I would, you know ... Person A wants to stay home and watch Netflix and, you know, person B, you know, wants to work, uh, for, for more hours, then, like, you know, person ... You know, person B should get more money. I am totally fine with that. But what bothers me is when you have these massive inequalities that have huge effects on people's lives that are linked to things that, that aren't under their control, and I think we have a lot of that too.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       I would agree with you 100%. Um, my position on this whenever people push back against the concept of socialism, or th- when I was, uh, supporting Bernie Sanders for president-

   14. BBBen Burgis6:22

       Mm-hmm.

4. 6:22 – 11:45

   Public goods logic: fire departments, schools, teachers, unions, and Finland

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:22

      ... I was saying that, well, look at all the things that are technically a socialist concept that we accept, like the fire department. Imagine if you had to have money to get your fire put out. Like, we don't think that.

   2. BBBen Burgis6:37

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:37

      Like, if your house burns down, we call the fire department, they show up. Our taxes fund the fire department. That is essentially a socialist endeavor. I mean, it's a socialist, uh, institution.

   4. BBBen Burgis6:48

      Yeah. It's- it's taken outside of the, it's taken outside of the market. It's provided just as like a right that you should have-

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:54

      Right.

   6. BBBen Burgis6:54

      ... just for, just for being a person, right? You know, you shouldn't have to do anything special to get your house put out if it's on fire, and you also shouldn't have to do anything special to get treatment if you're sick-

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:03

      Right.

   8. BBBen Burgis7:03

      ... uh, to, to go to, to go to college in the first place.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:07

      Yes.

   10. BBBen Burgis7:07

       It seems to be that a lot of people who, like, don't think that there should be a higher minimum wage are the same people who will go turn around and say, "Oh, if they wanted to make more money, they should go back to school." But then they don't want to pay for that, right? So which-

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:18

       Right. Exactly.

   12. BBBen Burgis7:19

       (laughs) ... which, you know, which one is it, right?

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:20

       Exactly.

   14. BBBen Burgis7:20

       Like, should they be paid more doing what they're doing or should they go back to school? 'Cause if it's none of the above, then it sounds like you just don't think those people should have, like, good lives, or at least you don't have a plan to help them have good lives.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:32

       What's fascinating to me too is when you look at public school versus, uh, uh, public services like the fire department. Fire department people get paid well. It's a good job if you're a, a member of the fire department.

   16. BBBen Burgis7:45

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       I have friends that are in the fire department. It's good benefits. The hours are cool because you get to work like 24-hour shifts. You sleep there.

   18. BBBen Burgis7:52

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:52

       You work there. You, like... My friend Ray was a fire, uh, fireman for years, and he would say like, he worked like a few days a week and then, you know, there were long shifts, and they weren't always called to fires.

   20. BBBen Burgis8:05

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       So sometimes they're just cooking and working out and hanging out around the firehouse. But it's a great job.

   22. BBBen Burgis8:11

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:11

       It's, it's like a, a job that people look forward to getting. It's, it's difficult to get. How come that's not the same thing with teachers? Like, what, what kind of a fucking world do we live in where teachers don't get paid well? I mean, I'm not saying fire department people shouldn't be paid well. Of course they should be paid well. They should be paid great. It's a fucking-

   24. BBBen Burgis8:29

       Sure.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:29

       ... very risky job. It's very valuable to the community, but fucking so is teaching.

   26. BBBen Burgis8:33

       No, s-

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:33

       How is there such a disparity?

   28. BBBen Burgis8:35

       So is teaching, and it's crazy that there are so many people who look at K-12 teachers and say, like, "Oh, how come, you know, how come they get summers off?" Or, you know, whatever, you know.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:45

       (laughs)

   30. BBBen Burgis8:45

       Or like, don't like that they, (laughs) uh, you know, which... No, it's ridiculous and-
5. 11:45 – 15:20

   Government distrust, bureaucracy, and why universal programs can reduce gatekeeping

   1. JRJoe Rogan11:45

      But I mean, they should get the... It, it should be like that with all of what I would think of-... social services, services for the community that we would gladly pay for with taxes, fixing infrastructures, fixing roads. The problem I think with a lot of people is they just don't trust government-

   2. BBBen Burgis12:02

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:02

      ... to handle the money well. They think that you're going to get a lot of bureaucracy, it's going to be bloated, there's going to be a shit load of people that are working, they're not going to resolve it, and it's going to be the, sort of that same situation where if you donate to charities and then you find out that like 90% of the money goes to infrastructure-

   4. BBBen Burgis12:18

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:18

      ... and bureau, and, and, you know, just w- some of those shitty charities, where so much money goes to the people that are working there that very little of it goes to the actual charity itself.

   6. BBBen Burgis12:28

      Well, of course, that's the private sector too, but yes. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan12:31

      Yes, it is, it is with everything, but-

   8. BBBen Burgis12:32

      You know, I, I, I guess I would just say one thing about the bureaucracy thing, 'cause like I know that that's something that's like an easy association-

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:38

      Yeah.

   10. BBBen Burgis12:38

       ... in lots of people's minds, right, you know, that like more government means more bureaucracy, and if you're thinking about people who are like petty gatekeepers, you know, who are like going to be able to approve or deny something, it's like very natural to like resent people like that.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:51

       Yeah.

   12. BBBen Burgis12:52

       Uh, but what I would say is that w- who, what, what situation is actually going to give bureaucrats more power? Is it going to be if you have something like Medicare for All, for example, where, or, you know, just like how public schools already work, right, the K-thr- K through 12, that like every kid has to be educated, you know, like, like you don't have to go through a special process. So if it's universal programs, then you don't have what you have with means-tested programs, where there's somebody who's like looking over your application and deciding whether or not, you know, you qualify, and, you know, deciding which hoops you have to jump through.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:26

       Right.

   14. BBBen Burgis13:27

       And like that really seems to me like where bureaucrats are really going to get, you know, most of their power. And that's not to say, like when I was saying that, I'm not saying that like there are no legitimate complaints about like any of the agencies that do these things. Of course there are, right?

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:41

       Of course.

   16. BBBen Burgis13:41

       You know, but what I would ask though is what the, what the options are, right? So 'cause, 'cause if you privatize something, then you're still, you know, you're still having decisions be made by, you know, decision-makers who, you know, who you don't necessarily, you know, like might be very distant from you. But the difference is at least when it's public then, you know, theoretically, right, you can at least elect the people who are, you know, who are overseeing it. Whereas if something is like subcontracted out to a private corporation, then like that's not even true anymore, right?

   17. JRJoe Rogan14:17

       Right.

   18. BBBen Burgis14:17

       Like there's another layer in between you as like an ordinary person and control over this, this institution. I mean, like if, uh, you know, if the federal government does anything bad then we can, you know, theoretically, uh, get, you know, get rid of them, although I think there are a lot of very undemocratic things about America's political system that make it way harder to do that. I mean, the fact that we've only got two political parties that are basically allowed to participate at all, the, the fact, you know, like-

   19. JRJoe Rogan14:42

       Yeah, you could go on and on.

   20. BBBen Burgis14:42

       We could go on and on, right?

   21. JRJoe Rogan14:44

       The money that's involved in getting these people elected.

   22. BBBen Burgis14:46

       Yeah, the money, definitely, right? Uh-

   23. JRJoe Rogan14:48

       Exorbitant amounts of money from special interest groups.

   24. BBBen Burgis14:51

       Yeah, no question, right? So, um, like I think it's, I think we've got like, (laughs) you know, we've got like a little bit of democracy there, not nearly as much as we should, right? But, like Jeff Bezos isn't up for election by anybody, right?

   25. JRJoe Rogan15:05

       Right.

   26. BBBen Burgis15:06

       Like, like, like he's just there, right? So like if you have, you know, like if, for example, you know, you, you didn't have like the, uh, public post office, right? It was, it was just like Amazon, you know, taking the, you know, like Amazon trucks and that's it.

   27. JRJoe Rogan15:19

       Mm-hmm.

6. 15:20 – 18:42

   USPS as a model + postal banking and the case for public alternatives

   1. BBBen Burgis15:20

      Then now you're talking about an institution that, uh, that there's no democratic control over, right? There's some like a little bit of indirect control in the case of the, uh, the post office, which, you know, by the way, I would point out that like when conservatives talk about, you know, bureaucracy and inefficiency and stuff like that, they always bring that up. But like if you actually look at polls, like 90% of Americans like the post office, you know.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:44

      The post office is amazing. They can get a fucking letter across the country for less than a dollar.

   3. BBBen Burgis15:50

      (laughs) Right, yeah. Right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:51

      How crazy is that?

   5. BBBen Burgis15:52

      Yeah, you could write-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:52

      What is the cost for a stamp?

   7. BBBen Burgis15:54

      Uh-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      Let's hit that now.

   9. BBBen Burgis15:55

      Yeah, it's like, uh, I know it's less than a dollar. It's, it's been a while since I actually, uh, you know-

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:59

       Yeah.

   11. BBBen Burgis16:00

       ... like I think my wife usually like buys the stuff at the post office.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:01

       I just email stuff. I don't fucking mail shit anymore. But like-

   13. BBBen Burgis16:04

       But like, but the fact that you can take a letter from Austin to like rural Alaska-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:09

       For a buck.

   15. BBBen Burgis16:10

       ... for a buck is-

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:11

       Fucking bonkers.

   17. BBBen Burgis16:12

       It's ridiculous. And no private company would, would have the, uh, the incentive to, to do that, right? You know.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:17

       Right.

   19. BBBen Burgis16:17

       And, and I think that that's, uh, like one of the things that Bernie Sanders was talking about, uh, the two times he ran for president, you know, it's not one of the things that was played up the most, is, um, postal banking, you know, which is the idea that you could have like bak- basic banking services offered at the post office, which they actually do have in some Scandinavian countries. And that was-

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:39

       Basic banking services like deposits and ex-

   21. BBBen Burgis16:41

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:41

       ... withdrawals and stuff like that?

   23. BBBen Burgis16:43

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       At the post office?

   25. BBBen Burgis16:44

       At the post office, which is-

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       Why would you do that?

   27. BBBen Burgis16:45

       Which is, uh, because it's a public institution that already exists everywhere, right? You know, there, there are post offices all over the place. Uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:51

       So they would sort out money as well as mail? What if the money goes to the wrong places like the mail sometimes goes? I get mail from wrong people sometimes.

   29. BBBen Burgis16:59

       Well, the mail does sometimes go to the wrong places. I would point out if you look at like FedEx-

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       Or to wrong people I should say.
7. 18:42 – 24:00

   Worker co-ops and corporate inequality: Mondragon, Amazon, and Bezos as symbol

   1. BBBen Burgis18:42

      be within the sort of, um, you know, the public, uh, the public sphere. And then, look, I mean there are things that we'll probably always need, um, you know, private businesses for. I'm under no illusions about that. You know that you, you know, if you don't want to have, like, the way grocery stores were in like the Soviet Union in 1985 or whatever, right? (laughs) You know, you, you have to have, uh, you know, like there are certain things, price signals and you know, firm failure you probably do need to have. But I do think, like, at the sort of outer edges of what I would like, that it would be good if it was a long-term goal to move towards having it be more of a norm. That, um, that, you know, workers, like, own, like, a lot of, uh, a lot of private businesses, you know?

   2. JRJoe Rogan19:26

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BBBen Burgis19:26

      That there are, you know, if you look at like the Mondragon Corporation in Spain, you know, that, that, that has like 80,000, you know, worker members, you know, who, who own that. You know, you have like the equivalent, like an operating agreement which is like the equivalent of a union contract, but there's no, like, separate boss to negotiate with. Um, and you, you know, might not necessarily directly elect managers because there could be things that are like, you know, technical things that, you know, managers have to do that, like, you want that to be more of a traditional job application. But you can at least elect the people who, who hire them. And even if I could like, you know, whatever, like a magical genie would just like somehow grant me (laughs) , you know, that like all of my political preferences were, were satisfied in ways that I don't think they're going to be any time soon given all those problems with America's political system we talked about earlier. But like, even if that happened, I don't think that like every single business should have to be like that, that if you, you know, like, hire a guy to, you know, to do, like, graphic design for your podcast for 10 hours a week or something, that they have to have, like, voting rights and a cooperative, like that would be silly. But I think that you can... I think we could move towards an economy where that was like a much more common thing, and I think that'll be way better off because the way it is in, like the kinds of corporations that dominate the economy right now, where you'll get like Amazon workers who, um, are like sometimes like working at the warehouse and then they have to have like a second job at night, uh, and their boss literally has enough money off of that to buy his own spaceship, right? That, that strikes me as a level of, of inequality that's really hard to justify by the principles that we kind of started with.

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:07

      Well, what did, what do they pay at Amazon? Do they, are they-

   5. BBBen Burgis21:10

      So, so I think-

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:11

      ... egregiously underpaid?

   7. BBBen Burgis21:12

      Uh, I don't think that they're egregiously underpaid by the standards of the, uh, standards the, of like, you know, corporate America as a whole. I think, I think it is up to, you know, 15 now. Uh, I'd have to check the exact numbers, but I think that the... But like what I would, what I would question is just this though, right? Like, when you're dividing up, right? Like the revenues that the whole company is making then you say, like, there are lots of ways that if you are in a cooperative and people could vote on pay scales, there are lots of things you could do to convince somebody-

   8. JRJoe Rogan21:41

      You mean like employees vote on pay scales?

   9. BBBen Burgis21:43

      Yeah. Like if you have like a worker cooperative. Right?

   10. JRJoe Rogan21:45

       Right.

   11. BBBen Burgis21:45

       You know, then-

   12. JRJoe Rogan21:46

       But the problem with that is a lot more workers than there are Jeff Bezos's and if they decide to say like, "We, we should get most of the money."

   13. BBBen Burgis21:53

       Okay. But they... But, but what do you think, what do you think Jeff Bezos is, is doing? Like, what's the, uh, um-

   14. JRJoe Rogan22:00

       Right now?

   15. BBBen Burgis22:00

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:00

       Coke.

   17. BBBen Burgis22:01

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:02

       He's doing coke and he's banging his girlfriend on a yacht. He's living like a guy who's got $183 billion.

   19. BBBen Burgis22:07

       (laughs) And going to space. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan22:09

       Yeah. He's going to space on a rocket ship that looks like a dick. He's shooting a giant metal dick up into the heavens, he's literally trying to fuck space. Yeah, that's what he's doing. That's what you're supposed to do when you make that kind of money. With my fascination with Jeff Bezos is his transformation from nerd to like this, like, muscle looking guy.

   21. BBBen Burgis22:26

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan22:26

       He looks like a jujitsu black belt. He looks like a tank. It's kind of crazy. And he's, now he's got... He used to have this, like, very respectable normal wife and now he's got this bombshell girlfriend. It's kind of hilarious. I love it. I love a good cliche. I really do. I love the fact they have to take down a bridge because he made a yacht that is so fucking big in order for it to get out of the, the place where they're making it-

   23. BBBen Burgis22:50

       (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan22:50

       ... they have to disassemble a fucking bridge. And he's like, "Yeah, dissemble the bridge."

   25. BBBen Burgis22:55

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan22:56

       What the fuck man? Why do you need a yacht so big they have to...

   27. BBBen Burgis23:00

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan23:00

       What are you doing? What are you doing? He's just out of control. But that's like... I feel like everyone that gets to that level of wealth-

   29. BBBen Burgis23:08

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:08

       ... seems to go out of control.
8. 24:00 – 32:23

   Polarization, tribal identity, and the ‘platforming’ taboo vs debate culture

   1. JRJoe Rogan24:00

      Yeah. I've, I've, I feel what you're saying. Do you think that... Do you have hope?... for, uh, the-- I mean, there seems to-- such a-

   2. BBBen Burgis24:08

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:08

      ... polarization in this country. There's, uh, people that are-- completely disagree with on the right-

   4. BBBen Burgis24:12

      Yep.

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:12

      ... that are like, "Pull yourself up, bury bootstraps," all that stuff. Like that, that is nonsense talk. When people talk like that, I'm like, "Jesus Christ, man, not everybody is starting from the same position." It's a, it's a cr- a crazy disparity.

   6. BBBen Burgis24:23

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:23

      And until we address that as a society, until we look at e- these impoverished communities that have been impoverished for decades and decades and decades, and, you know, if you really want to talk about where my real feelings of socialism lie, my feelings of socialism are there are communities, and it's not just inner cities, it's like Appalachia-

   8. BBBen Burgis24:42

      Sure.

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:42

      ... it's these coal mining towns, like, we have to dump money into these places and help these folks. Because if you don't, you're going to have people that come out of there and they're going to cost you exponentially more money and all the problems that they create in their own lives, in other people's lives, with whether it's c- crime or whether it's drug addiction or whether it's, you know, whatever despair that comes out of these horrific starting points that these people are from, that can be fixed. And this is like where I'm a bleeding heart. And-

   10. BBBen Burgis25:11

       Well, yeah, I mean it can be fixed but like it, it sure hasn't been. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:14

       It hasn't been even addressed.

   12. BBBen Burgis25:15

       Uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       It's not even addressed. They n- there's no talk whatsoever about looking at communities like Baltimore-

   14. BBBen Burgis25:21

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan25:21

       ... and saying, "Hey, this has been fucked from the beginning." Like what do we do? Like look at the red line laws they instituted, look at the fact that the same... What was his name? Woods? What was the, uh, the cop that we had on? Michael. Michael Woods. He was on, um, he was a police officer in Baltimore.

   16. BBBen Burgis25:38

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan25:39

       And he, uh, was working there and one of the things that he noticed was they found a rap- like a, a, you know, a, a, a arrest sheet from like-

   18. BBBen Burgis25:50

       Mm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan25:50

       ... the 1970s.

   20. BBBen Burgis25:51

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan25:51

       And it showed all of the same exact crimes that they're dealing with in the current time all in the same areas.

   22. BBBen Burgis26:01

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:01

       And they were all happening this, in the, like the same thing was going on, all the different arrests for violence and drugs and all this different stuff, and he was like, "Jesus Christ, this is not..." Like and he felt this feeling like, "I'm, I'm in a system that's broken. Like you're not gonna fix this. Like you're just gonna keep arresting people and you, you keep having this, y- you know, the systemic equali- inequality in this area that's just been fucked from for decades."

   24. BBBen Burgis26:29

       Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, I think that 'cause by the time you're dealing with it on that level you're d- you're treating symptoms, you know-

   25. JRJoe Rogan26:35

       Yeah.

   26. BBBen Burgis26:35

       ... the, that, like it's, it's already... The problem has, uh, has already happened. And, you know, don't get me wrong, I know people commit crimes for all kinds of reasons. I'm not saying it's all economic, but like also I don't see a lot of like kids in the suburbs joining gangs, right? Like there, there is a reason-

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:51

       Yeah.

   28. BBBen Burgis26:51

       ... there is a reason for that, right? (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan26:53

       For sure. Yeah.

   30. BBBen Burgis26:53

       You know, the things that like really drive up the violent crime rate, you know, are things that have a lot to do with poverty and, and inequality. And I think that if you, you know, you talked about Appalachia, I mean like the Obama administration's like response to like all the coal, you know, like the sort of misery caused by all the coal mines closing was to, you know, just kind of sprinkle the region with like a, a few-
9. 32:23 – 48:03

   Religion and morality: critiquing scripture while recognizing its social scaffolding

   1. JRJoe Rogan32:23

      Yeah, I don't agree with him on a lot of things, uh, particularly on gay issues. He thinks that gay folks, uh, shouldn't just ... They should just not do it. It's, it's this-

   2. BBBen Burgis32:31

      Which is, it's this, which is ridiculous. Like, you're gonna-

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:33

      It's the strangest position. I just don't understand that position.

   4. BBBen Burgis32:35

      So, so like you ... If you're gay, you have, like, a moral obligation to just be celibate for your entire life?

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:41

      No, you're supposed to actually engage in heterosexual sex. Yeah.

   6. BBBen Burgis32:45

      Oh, okay. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:47

      But what's, but what's amazing is that this is-

   8. BBBen Burgis32:48

      That's, that's where-

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:48

      Well, this is where it falls apart, right? Because this is all based on ancient writing.

   10. BBBen Burgis32:52

       Ugh.

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:53

       Like who ... See, 'cause God said this? Like, te- ... Who said God said this? Who are these fucking people? And what else did they say God said? Did they say anything about zombies?

   12. BBBen Burgis33:01

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:01

       Did they say anything about people coming back from the dead? Like, what did God say to do ... I mean, how much did they say that doesn't make sense? Did they say anything about parting oceans and like did, did anybody like-

   14. BBBen Burgis33:11

       Well-

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       ... lead someone to a place and-

   16. BBBen Burgis33:13

       Well, you-

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:14

       ... part a sea?

   18. BBBen Burgis33:15

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:15

       'Cause that doesn't seem real. Maybe someone was lying.

   20. BBBen Burgis33:18

       Yeah, right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:19

       (laughs)

   22. BBBen Burgis33:19

       That's, that's, that's, uh, that's like-

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:20

       It's like-

   24. BBBen Burgis33:21

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:22

       I mean, anybody who does ... Anybody who knows gay people-

   26. BBBen Burgis33:24

       Ugh.

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:25

       ... right? Like, there ... I have gay friends that are like, you could never tell they're gay-

   28. BBBen Burgis33:29

       Good.

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:29

       ... 'cause, uh, they don't ... You know, they just seem-

   30. BBBen Burgis33:32

       Sure.
10. 48:03 – 1:24:47

    How the left embraced censorship: powerlessness, culture-war substitution, and corporate control risks

    1. JRJoe Rogan48:03

       What, what happened to the left where somewhere along the line, this is to get back to your book-

    2. BBBen Burgis48:07

       Yeah, sure.

    3. JRJoe Rogan48:07

       ... and the subject that we started with.

    4. BBBen Burgis48:09

       Yep.

    5. JRJoe Rogan48:09

       What happened to the left where they are willing to, they, there's something that happened-

    6. BBBen Burgis48:16

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan48:16

       ... where they became-... ex- the, the side that accepts censorship-

    8. BBBen Burgis48:22

       Mm-hmm.

    9. JRJoe Rogan48:22

       ... and even promotes it. And my, my thought is that something morphed during the time where social media became... It became a tool of a lot of right-wing people. And, uh, this is actually, like, pre-Trump-

    10. BBBen Burgis48:40

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JRJoe Rogan48:41

        ... but was certainly accentuated during the Trump Administration. It's like people had a chance to anonymously say things through social media that maybe they wouldn't say around the office. Because, like, say if you have, like, 10 people in your office and nine of them are Democrats and you're a Republican.

    12. BBBen Burgis48:59

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan48:59

        You really have to keep your mouth shut, right? But when you get on Twitter, you can talk all kinds-

    14. BBBen Burgis49:03

        Sure, sure.

    15. JRJoe Rogan49:03

        ... of crazy shit, or Reddit or whatever, and then all the other people that agree with you, they, they get attracted to you, and then you form these echo chambers, and then some of them are very aggressive in sort of pushing these ideas out. And we saw that a lot with, like, Milo Yiannopoulos, and there was a lot of, like, these, like, very influential online right-wing people that were, you know, they had, like, cheers from the fans and they had, like-

    16. BBBen Burgis49:34

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JRJoe Rogan49:34

        ... these throngs of supporters, and they silenced those guys. They pulled those guys off social media, and they found out that it was effective to do that. And then it became a thing that they got really into, where they're into silencing-

    18. BBBen Burgis49:46

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan49:46

        ... dissenting opinions. And it's gone so far that they're doing it left-wing people that step even remotely outside of the bounds of the orthodoxy, remotely outside of the bounds of what they consider to be the rigid, this, the r- rigid maintaining of this ideology.

    20. BBBen Burgis50:05

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan50:05

        They step outside of that, they, they silence people. And they're pulling videos down left and right off of Instagram and TikTok and O- and, and Twitter in some ways. Twitter's like less censorship-oriented, even though people think of Twitter as being, like, a, a very censored place. It's one of the more lenient-

    22. BBBen Burgis50:22

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan50:23

        ... online platforms. But what the fuck happened?

    24. BBBen Burgis50:26

        Yeah, I mean, the Milo case is interesting actually, because I think that, um... I mean, I understand that, like, he got kicked off of Twitter, and that was definitely part of it, but, like, uh, he was still riding pretty high after that happened. Like, I think that in Milo's case, and this is what, you know, when I, you know, kind of try to tell people, that, like, the ways that, like, some people on the left, like, want to, like, deal with figures like this, like, forget morality for a second. They're just not gonna work, right? So, so, like, here's what I mean by that, right? That, like, Milo's career was built on people trying to, like, you know, stop him and heckle him and, you know, stop him from speaking and all that stuff, you know? That, like, my view on that guy is that, honestly, you know, he w- he wouldn't be that interesting if he just showed up on a college campus and, like, just talked and nobody, (laughs) you know, nobody interrupted him. But, like, that was why, like, 'cause it was like, "Oh, he's, like, speaking edgy forbidden truths," and, like, you know, it was the Dangerous Ideas Tour, that's what it was called. Like, I think where Milo really got, uh, dropped, like, like, where Milo, like, was really ended, right, and I'm not saying there aren't other cases that are more like what you're talking about, but it seems to me that where Milo was really ended was when the right dropped him after the age of consent stuff. Like, he, he-

    25. JRJoe Rogan51:36

        Yeah.

    26. BBBen Burgis51:36

        ... was gonna speak at CPAC, and they canceled that. He had his book deal, you know, got dropped. But-

    27. JRJoe Rogan51:41

        But it wasn't just the right dropping him. I mean, that was, uh, across the board, people dropped him because of that.

    28. BBBen Burgis51:45

        Well, I, I mean, everybody else had always hated him, right? But then, like, after that happened, right, you know, that...

    29. JRJoe Rogan51:49

        That was just, uh, a thing where it, it felt like, um, it was, uh, so unacceptable to so many people-

    30. BBBen Burgis51:57

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:48:31