Joe Rogan Experience #1784 - Diana Rodgers & Robb Wolf

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. DRDiana Rodgers0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, folks. Good to see ya.

   4. RWRobb Wolf0:15

      It's good to see you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      Thanks for coming.

   6. RWRobb Wolf0:17

      Um, glad we didn't make it snow-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:19

      You almost did.

   8. RWRobb Wolf0:20

      ... again, in Texas. I mean, it was close.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      It can snow. It might snow today. It's very possible, 'cause it was drizzling when I left the house, and it was 30 degrees, so ... which is not supposed to happen. It's supposed to be snow.

   10. RWRobb Wolf0:29

       Hopefully it won't be the snow-pocalypse part two.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       Yeah, last time you were supposed to come, it became a complete disaster, but-

   12. RWRobb Wolf0:37

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       ... it was fun. It was fun to watch people slide around and, and, eh, know that this, uh, city has zero infrastructure in terms of, like, dealing with snow.

   14. RWRobb Wolf0:45

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:46

       It's, it's, it's kinda ... 'Cause I grew up in Massachusetts where it's, you know, they know how to handle snow. Out here, they're, they're baffled.

   16. RWRobb Wolf0:52

       Do you wanna ...

   17. DRDiana Rodgers0:54

       I did.

   18. RWRobb Wolf0:54

       She got ... Y- y- tell them what happened with you.

   19. DRDiana Rodgers0:56

       Well, well, so my flight from Hou- ... I'm from Boston, and, uh, my flight from Houston to Austin was canceled, so I got the last SUV. You don't know how much I wanted to be on your show. I got the last SUV, drove through the ice storm to Austin, where there was, like, just dead cars, you know, it was like zombie apocalypse. Got to a Marriott around the corner from here and thought, "Well, at least I'll be able to walk, if, if nothing else." And my room overlooked this on-ramp, and I just, every day for a week, with no running water and no bottled water, watched the cars just slide up and down. And then I finally went out to Rob's house, where he at least had a pool for running toilets.

   20. RWRobb Wolf1:42

       Flushing the toilets.

   21. DRDiana Rodgers1:43

       But I was living on basically, like, White Claw and canned tuna. (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:46

       (laughs) Oh my God, this was when you were supposed to be here?

   23. RWRobb Wolf1:49

       Yeah.

   24. DRDiana Rodgers1:49

       Mm-hmm. Last year.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:49

       Oh, my God.

   26. RWRobb Wolf1:51

       I still have a can of Wolf chili-

   27. DRDiana Rodgers1:53

       That I got out of a gas station. (laughs)

   28. RWRobb Wolf1:53

       ... that she bought here that ... but she didn't have a can opener-

   29. DRDiana Rodgers1:55

       (laughs)

   30. RWRobb Wolf1:55

       ... and she was just like, "I don't know how to get into this thing." (laughs) So ...
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      like if you have good friends-

   2. RWRobb Wolf15:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      ... and you're around 'em, and you're laughing, like how, how is that not good for you?

   4. RWRobb Wolf15:05

      Right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:05

      You know? It really should be prescribed.

   6. RWRobb Wolf15:07

      Right.

   7. DRDiana Rodgers15:08

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:08

      Yeah. So exercise is, uh, critical, but not the primary factor?

   9. RWRobb Wolf15:16

      I think it provides the quality of life. A- and, you know, when we think about longevity and kind of health span versus life span, we wanna live as well as we can as long as we can, and then very short, you know, decline, and, and then, you know, fade out. And I think that smart exercise, a base level of cardio, some resistance training, then just doing a variety of activity, good mobility, that, I think that that feeds into the ability to do all the stuff that we wanna do. And also, like, eh, you get sick, you get injured, you get in a car accident or something, like people who, y- you know, if you're, you're better shaped, you're just harder to kill. And I think that that is such a major factor, but I, i- my opinion, you could, y- you know, maybe agree, but, um, I think when people tackle exercise as a calorie-burning endeavor, like, you're much better time spent focusing on good quality food, very protein centric, 'cause it tends to be satiating so you don't overeat.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:14

       Yeah.

   11. RWRobb Wolf16:14

       So you exercise so you have a kickass life, but if you wanna lose weight, good body composition, it's really the nutrition part that, that addresses the bulk of that.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       So, uh, the people that do exercise just for calorie burnout, w- the problem I usually have with that is that I- I don't think they enjoy it.

   13. RWRobb Wolf16:30

       Right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:31

       I think they think of it as this task that one must do in order to look better, or to justify a sundae, you know, justify an ice cream sundae or a bowl of spaghetti, you know? Where it's like, you should, you should enjoy the results. Like, you feel good, like, it's great for the body, it's a stress reliever, it relieves anxiety. It's like, it's so critical. If you're going through any, like, stressful period of your life, that is the time where you gotta be, like, disciplined with your workouts. You gotta hit 'em hard.

   15. RWRobb Wolf16:59

       Right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:59

       It's a medicine. That's how I feel.

   17. DRDiana Rodgers17:02

       Yeah, and sarcopenia is something, so that's age-related muscle loss, and we know everyone over 40 starts to d- eh, lose their ability to digest protein. And so your need for protein and your requirement to even just maintain muscle mass goes way up as you get older, and the RDA for protein i- is, like, so far below ... I- it's set at the minimum to avoid disease, it's not the optimal amount, but even that RDA is way, way, way too low for protein.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:34

       Really?

   19. DRDiana Rodgers17:35

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:36

       Well, what is the RDA for protein?

   21. DRDiana Rodgers17:38

       So the RDA is .8 grams per kilogram of body weight, but then because Americans don't like kilograms and, and they don't wanna do the calculations, you'll see these numbers floating around. So for women, they'll say, "Women need 45 grams of protein, and men need 55 grams of protein," or something. But that's based on this ideal body weight of 125 for women and 155 for men.

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:02

       What do we live in, the '30s? (laughs)

   23. DRDiana Rodgers18:03

       And so yeah, so the average weight-

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:05

       (laughs)

   25. DRDiana Rodgers18:05

       ... according to the CDC for, for women is 165 and for men it's like 195.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:11

       Is that real? The average weight for women is 165?

   27. DRDiana Rodgers18:15

       Mm-hmm. For American women.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:17

       Wow.

   29. DRDiana Rodgers18:17

       Yeah. And so wh- so then when you go .8 grams per kilogram, you're way above what, what these RDA nu- you're at about double what the RDA is. Um, uh, but then when you look at optimal amounts, so we went through this in the book, and we, I looked at all the research and how they came up with the RDA and-... um, you know, we really need at least double the RDA of protein, and we need it from animal source foods. There's a huge difference between animal and plant source proteins.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:47

       Now, that- this is something that vegans, their hackles get up immediately.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Hm. …

   1. RWRobb Wolf30:00

      uh, keep kind of an inventory of what you're eating. And then if we, if there are some pretty classic nutrient deficiency syndromes, you know, like dry skin and split nails and things like that for, for zinc deficiency, as an example. And so, it's almost easier to go that way versus trying to get in and then from, like, first principles, figure out wh- what's your genetics and what's the, the perfect diet that's gonna work for you.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:23

      Hm.

   3. RWRobb Wolf30:24

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:24

      So, the bioavailability. Um, what do we know in terms of, uh, the bioavailability of the pra- the plant-b- based proteins versus, uh, animal-based proteins? Like, how do we know that the body is absorbing the protein more efficiently from an animal source?

   5. DRDiana Rodgers30:46

      I'm trying to pull up the, um...... the protein, uh, bioavailability chart, 'cause there is a chart that sets ... A- and its animal source proteins are always above, uh, uh, plant source proteins. 100%.

   6. RWRobb Wolf31:01

      Mechanistically, what they do is they'll figure out a, a given amount of protein, and then they fed that to people, and then they will look at serum, uh, amino acid levels after that, kinda track them over time, so animal-based proteins, you're going to ... let, let's say you give them 30 grams of protein, and then you track over a two-hour period the branch ... uh, uh, all the amino acids that we, that we-

   7. DRDiana Rodgers31:24

      Mm-hmm.

   8. RWRobb Wolf31:24

      ... see go up and then down during that, and you can compare that to beans or broccoli. And, and so that, that is a piece of how you figure out the, the comparative bioavailability of one protein versus another. You see this even just with, like, cooked proteins versus non-cooked proteins, like, uh, uh, I know that there's kind of ... I like eating some, like, steak tartare here and there and stuff like that, but, uh, there's just kind of a reality that meat that is cooked is much more bioavailable for the proteins and also the nutrients that are in it versus raw meat.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:55

      That's interesting. Like, what about rare?

   10. RWRobb Wolf31:59

       I'm not sure on that, because it's still cooked some, so I'm not-

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:02

       It's cooked on the outside.

   12. RWRobb Wolf32:03

       Yeah, it's cooked on the outside.

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:03

       But the inside's pretty ...

   14. RWRobb Wolf32:05

       Yeah. I don't ... I suspect that you're, y- you know, like, if you were to sous vide something and slow cook it, and, and it's cooked thoroughly, I think that it would, that would probably optimize, like, the bioavailability of the, um, the-

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:19

       Protein?

   16. RWRobb Wolf32:20

       ... whole protein. Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:20

       What about the difference between, like, a medium rare and a well done? Is well done less bioavailable or more?

   18. RWRobb Wolf32:27

       I think that well done is probably more bioavailable.

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:30

       Oh.

   20. RWRobb Wolf32:30

       But it, but it-

   21. DRDiana Rodgers32:31

       Hmm.

   22. RWRobb Wolf32:31

       ... tastes so bad that what's-

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:32

       Ugh.

   24. RWRobb Wolf32:33

       I've thought about that. It's a really good question. I, I don't know for sure, but, um, if you only eat a tiny piece of it because it tastes horrible, then I don't know if it's really helping you. (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan32:44

       The thing is, um, I've always wondered, like, particularly because of game meat, 'cause wild game meat has always been touted as being much more, uh, protein rich than domestic cattle, and I- I eat a lot of that stuff, so I'm always wondering, like, what is going on? How do they know?

   26. RWRobb Wolf32:59

       It's definitely lean, so I mean, you're getting a lot of protein per serving because the game meat is so incredibly lean.

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:05

       Right.

   28. RWRobb Wolf33:05

       So when you compare it per calorie or even if you've just got, you know, four or five ounces on a scale, if you have, like, a rib eye ... what is a rib eye, like 20% fat by weight? Something like that?

   29. DRDiana Rodgers33:16

       I think it's more like 45%.

   30. RWRobb Wolf33:19

       It's 45 by calories, or is it 45%-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   And how many people…

   1. RWRobb Wolf45:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:00

      And how many people have this and don't know about it?

   3. RWRobb Wolf45:03

      Oh.

   4. DRDiana Rodgers45:03

      I know that th- they, they think it's one in 133 people have it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:07

      Wow.

   6. DRDiana Rodgers45:07

      Mm-hmm. I- it took me until I was 26 to find out that I had it. I w- I had it my whole life.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      And you were just eating pizza and going off?

   8. RWRobb Wolf45:15

      (laughs)

   9. DRDiana Rodgers45:16

      And being very sick. Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:19

       Interesting. So, um, so there's the celiac thing, and this requires you to stay away from all glutens.

   11. DRDiana Rodgers45:27

       Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:27

       Is there anything else that it requires you to stay away from? Are you allow- are y- is n- are nuts okay, like peanuts, walnuts?

   13. DRDiana Rodgers45:35

       I mean, I definitely feel better when I eat a diet more close to what you described.

   14. JRJoe Rogan45:40

       Hmm.

   15. DRDiana Rodgers45:41

       Um, but yeah, strictly meat was a little intense for me, although ... You know, I wanted to mention, I had a nutrition client who, with, um, compulsive overeating, and so ... and I've sat through these ... they're like AA meetings, but for people that are compulsive overeaters, so like, their reward signals just light up times a million and they rain when they, when they encounter certain foods.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       Really? What is that?

   17. DRDiana Rodgers46:07

       Yeah, I mean, th- you know, I think some people just are prone to addiction.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:11

       Is it, is that a psychological thing, or is it a, is there like a s- like, is there a thing you could track in the brain when they're overeating like this?

   19. DRDiana Rodgers46:19

       I mean, my theory on this is that s- p- some people are just low dopamine, and they may get into heroin, they may get into gambling, or they may become compulsive overeaters, and it's just sort of how it plays out.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:33

       Hmm.

   21. DRDiana Rodgers46:34

       Um, and-

   22. RWRobb Wolf46:35

       Or like some of my clients, they do all of the above.

   23. DRDiana Rodgers46:37

       Oh, all, all, or all of them? (laughs)

   24. RWRobb Wolf46:39

       (laughs)

   25. DRDiana Rodgers46:39

       But, so I sat in on a meeting, um, when I was a dietetic student, and they all have to identify their trigger food and then agree to not eat it and abstain from it, so sort of like an alcoholic-type meeting, except for, unfortunately for them, you have to eat. You can't avoid eating, you know? Um, and it was white foods that was unanimously the trigger food for like all these people. But it still can be overwhelming to figure out what you're gonna eat, and so anyway, I had a young woman who, she just wanted to go carnivore. It was just easier for her to like just give herself only that, and she lost. And she had rheumatoid arthritis that went into remission.

   26. JRJoe Rogan47:24

       She lost?

   27. DRDiana Rodgers47:25

       Uh, gosh, like 60... It's still going, actually. I think the last time I checked was 60 or 75 pounds.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:31

       And her arthritis went into remission?

   29. DRDiana Rodgers47:32

       Yes.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:34

       So w- what do we think is happening to people's guts? Do you think that it's the plant defense chemicals that are messing with people's guts? Do you think with, when it comes to, obviously not celiacs, which is an extreme version, but when people do have issues with autoimmune issues that are food-related, what i- what is causing this stuff?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   Hmm. …

   1. RWRobb Wolf1:00:00

      around that, and there was ... Uh, Forbes did an interesting piece where they ... Uh, there was so much interest from the vegan community around Impossible Burger and Impossible Foods. And this Forbes piece was interesting. It made the case that these people are usually very progressive and very anti-corporation, were, like, the biggest fans or, or, you know, promoters of this corporatization of our food system-

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:23

      Hmm.

   3. RWRobb Wolf1:00:23

      ... which is kind of where all the stuff is going. What we're-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

      They're getting duped.

   5. RWRobb Wolf1:00:28

      ... they really are, but it, you know, it's, uh, on the one side, there's a story that meat will cause cancer and diabetes and all this stuff, and it's going to destroy the planet because of carbon emissions and it- it's using all the water and the land. And- and it's a, it's a slick story. It's a- it's an elevator pitch, it's elegant, it's, like, buttoned up, airtight. And then when we start trying to unpack that, it- I- uh, you have to dig into ecology and non-equilibrium thermodynamics, and it's not an elevator pitch, and it- it's a lot of work to- to unpack what those claims are. And then, you know, even what is the motivation to do this? Then we start getting into conspiracy theory land. It's like, "Well, there are people that want to control the food system and they want to, you know, turn food into intellectual property that they own."

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:01:14

      Mm.

   7. RWRobb Wolf1:01:14

      But I-

   8. DRDiana Rodgers1:01:16

      So-

   9. RWRobb Wolf1:01:16

      ... that really seems to be what's going on with this.

   10. DRDiana Rodgers1:01:19

       A- a- and I think they're- they're n- they've realized consumers aren't gonna just buy it in the grocery store. And by the way, it's twice as expense- like, Beyond Burger is twice as expensive as organic grass-fed beef per pound.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:01:30

       Wow.

   12. DRDiana Rodgers1:01:30

       But they sell it in half-pound packages right next to the pound packages, and so-

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:01:34

       Oh, they trick you.

   14. DRDiana Rodgers1:01:35

       ... hmm. But so why not just make it policy and indoctrinate these kids from kindergarten to age 12 with these messages? Like, the Meatless Monday messages are all wrong. Like, they're all wrong.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:01:47

       What is the message?

   16. DRDiana Rodgers1:01:48

       Uh, meat is bad for your health and the environment. And- and they use these beautiful, simplistic infographics showing, you know, livestock takes up three-quarters of the land. But- but ... Okay, but it's not talking about the types of land, you know. Or that your burger used 10 bathtubs full of water. But then we're not talking about, okay, the- the most of the water footprint for a cow is actually in the grass. It- like, it's called greenwater. It's, like, water that's already in the environment, in rain. Whether the cow is there or not, it's gonna happen.

   17. RWRobb Wolf1:02:24

       Do we have that infographic? Like, that one's really-

   18. DRDiana Rodgers1:02:25

       Yeah, I have the- the water one.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:02:26

       If you wanna talk about how much water, uh, uh, a burger uses up, you better not be eating almonds.

   20. RWRobb Wolf1:02:33

       Exactly.

   21. DRDiana Rodgers1:02:33

       Yeah.

   22. RWRobb Wolf1:02:34

       Exactly.

   23. DRDiana Rodgers1:02:34

       Or-

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:34

       You better not be eating or you better shut your mouth if you're eating almonds.

   25. RWRobb Wolf1:02:37

       Right.

   26. DRDiana Rodgers1:02:37

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:02:37

       Those things are ridiculous.

   28. DRDiana Rodgers1:02:39

       So here's the water one, and I've broken it down, land use, feed use, but this is just the water one. And so what most people don't get is that there's, you know, green water's natural rain, and then the blue water is, like, what, when you look down on a map and see rivers and lakes.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:02:55

       So what we're looking at, folks that are just listening, is when you look at typical beef versus grass-finished beef, it looks there's probably, like, how many dots are on this? This-

   30. DRDiana Rodgers1:03:03

       A little different. So we're- we're- at the bottom, I have the percentages. So it's 94% green water for typical beef and 97% green water for average. And this is average. Like, in Vermont, it might be different than Nevada, but ...
6. 1:15:00 – 1:16:46

   What is- what's the…

   1. DRDiana Rodgers1:15:00

      is limiting in the amino acids. Um, but we still have yet to see a full nutrient breakdown of all the junk they put in, and of course it's better to eat real meat.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:11

      What is- what's the main ingredients of those burgers?

   3. DRDiana Rodgers1:15:14

      Uh, pea protein is one of them, and then-

   4. RWRobb Wolf1:15:17

      I think soy ends up h- like, on the-

   5. DRDiana Rodgers1:15:19

      S-

   6. RWRobb Wolf1:15:19

      ... oil front, and then also just some of the protein also.

   7. DRDiana Rodgers1:15:22

      Mm.

   8. RWRobb Wolf1:15:22

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:15:22

      What if they mixed those burgers in with a branched-chain amino acid profile?

   10. RWRobb Wolf1:15:28

       I mean, you would-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:15:29

       Could you do that, like a bodybuilding Beyond Burger?

   12. RWRobb Wolf1:15:32

       (laughs) You could.

   13. DRDiana Rodgers1:15:33

       You could. You could-

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:15:33

       You'd make a lot of money.

   15. RWRobb Wolf1:15:34

       ... BBBB.

   16. DRDiana Rodgers1:15:34

       (laughs)

   17. RWRobb Wolf1:15:34

       You'd make a lot of money. You'd make a lot of money.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:15:36

       Yeah.

   19. RWRobb Wolf1:15:36

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:15:36

       But you- y- are you causing inflammation? Are you giving people issues with these seed oils, like soybean oil? That's not necessarily good for you, right?

   21. DRDiana Rodgers1:15:47

       Exactly.

   22. RWRobb Wolf1:15:48

       Yeah, and- and you're still, like, for every calorie that you consume of that, you're not consuming something else, so where are you getting the vitamins, the minerals, the n- y- you know, these other things? And i- in a developed world, you, you could go to your corner store and get vitamins and- and do all that. But what's kinda squirrelly is that because this whole story has been so cli- tied into climate change, they're really pushing that the developing world adopt this stuff too.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:16:17

       Mm.

   24. RWRobb Wolf1:16:17

       And this is one interesting area that different places in developed world have pushed back, because they're like, "We can't be dependent on this."

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:16:25

       Right.

   26. RWRobb Wolf1:16:25

       "Like, we have these traditional food systems, and if you, if you make us dependent on the exports of, like, your industrial row crop food system, we're- we're, one, we're super dependent, and two, we- we can't afford it." And then the third point, which Diana really detailed this well in the book, these folks don't have access to, like, a CVS to go get their B vitamins and their folate and y- you know, their zinc-

Episode duration: 2:57:13