EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,049 words- 0:00 – 1:56
Why Dakota wrote The Way Forward: purpose beyond yourself
- DMDakota Meyer
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
- NANarrator
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)
- JRJoe Rogan
Dakota, what's happening brother? How are you?
- DMDakota Meyer
Good to see you. What's up, man?
- JRJoe Rogan
You wrote a book, man.
- DMDakota Meyer
I did. I did, with, with Rob O'Neil.
- JRJoe Rogan
The Way Forward.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Master life's toughest battles, and create your lasting legacy. What, uh, what drove you to this?
- DMDakota Meyer
You know, like, I, I, I think that there was, like, a p- a point in my life to where I kind of just j- had, you know, kind of put it all together of, like, wanting to help people. You know, like the way forward. There's always a way forward. You know, my, my life's been such a shit show in so many ways. (laughs) Um, and s- obviously Rob's has too. That was one thing we could relate on is, like, you know, we both came from two different places, did two different things, but, like, there's always a way forward, you know, focusing on what matters.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was there a time in your life where you didn't think there was a way forward? Were you...
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I wrote about that in my first book about, (clears throat) you know, a time that, um, I just didn't know if there was a way forward. But, you know, what, what I, what I learned was, is like, you know, when you don't see a way forward, it's because your purpose is yourself, and it's not other things, right? People that, people that are lost. Or, I felt like when I'm lost is when I'm too busy focusing on things for me and that... My, my purpose is me, and it's not, like, the things that are around me, the things that matter.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, in what way? What do you mean?
- DMDakota Meyer
(smacks lips) You know, like my kids. Like, my friends. My circle, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
Like, doing something bigger than me. Like, focusing on something that's, that's bigger than, than just, you know, trying to survive. Like, okay, well, I'm gonna go pay my bills. Well, that's not really a, a, a great purpose, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
But, but finding something bigger that you could believe in, like, you know, being a firefighter, or being a good dad, or, you know, just the, trying to have goals of fitness, or start a company, or all those things, right?
- 1:56 – 4:14
Post-service crash: entitlement, alcohol, and the victim mindset
- JRJoe Rogan
So, did you feel like, uh, at one point in time where y- you were only thinking about yourself, and you didn't see there was any point to it all? Is that what you mean?
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I got out of the Marine Corps. And, um, you know, I got out, and it was all about me, right? It's like, "Oh, you know, I, um, I served this country. This country owes me now." Um, you know, 'cause, look, when you're in the military, you're... The whole time you're told you're a hero.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
You know what I mean? Like, oh, everybody's just, they're, they're... You're just, you're just greater people, you know? All these things. You sacrificed for this country. This country owes you. And I hate that word owes, right? Like, owes. The only thing we owe is the bank. Um, but, you know, I, I... That, that was where I was at, and I was walking around blaming all my problems on, you know... Well, you know, I, I'm an alco- you know, I'm drinking all the time. I wasn't an alcoholic, but just drinking all the time, trying to, you know, overcome the pain of, you know, the stuff that I'd seen and things that didn't make sense. And, and then, you know, when you would try to question me or hold me accountable, I'd be like, "Well, (scoffs) you didn't go through what I went through." Right? And so, how are you gonna argue it? Um, you know, and I was surrounded by that. I was, I was the victim. I made myself the victim of, of life. And, you know, at that point was where I got the lowest, right? Like, I, I just couldn't... You know, 'cause at some point, like, people are gonna, they're gonna try to help you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
Like, that's the great thing about the world is people are gonna help you. People want to help. But they can only help you so far. Like, they're not gonna drown with you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
Especially when you're not choosing to, to, to get better. And that was where I was at, you know. Like, just drinking all the time. You know, being... I was, I was an asshole. Like, I mean, I'm still an asshole, but just a different way.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DMDakota Meyer
(laughs) Uh, you know. Um, I was an asshole, and just, you know, blaming, blaming the world for my problems, when really, I was the problem. You know? I just didn't have anything bigger than me. And I would surround myself by people who would, who wanted to coddle me, right? Like, "Oh, Dakota, you know, what you've gone through, you know, you, you deserve... You know, you're... It, it's okay. This is normal for what you've gone through." And it's like, no. No, no. Like, that's what America is about, is the comeback story, right? Like, everybody's gonna go through their problems. Everybody's gonna have their lumps, but America, they, they want the comeback story, you know?
- 4:14 – 7:19
Suicidal crisis and the ‘click’ moment: deciding suicide is never an option again
- JRJoe Rogan
What was it that made you turn around? Like, did you have a moment? Did, did... Is it something you read? Is it something you learned?
- DMDakota Meyer
No, I, um... You know, so I was living at my dad's house. I was living with my dad. Uh, my dad's just an incredible man. And, um, one night, I'm, I was out drinking somewhere, and I was driving home on this road. And I just seen, like, the pain I was causing the people around me, right? Like, my dad was never gonna kick me out of the house, but I, I mean, I just seen, like, the disappointment, right? Like, the disappointment in people, uh, that I was, that I was bringing. And, um, I was driving down the road one night, and I just said, "Look, this is it." Like, "I'm done." I pulled over at my buddy's shop. Uh, he had a welding shop. And I... 'Cause I knew that I didn't want to inconvenience anybody to have to, "Well, where's he at?" This huge search. I knew he would be in at 8:00, or 6:00, 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning. He comes in every day. Um, I pulled over and, uh, parked right in front of the bay door, and, uh, pulled my gun out, and I stuck it to my head and squeezed the trigger. And, uh, so, like, somebody had unloaded that gun. Uh, I'd shot it that day, actually. I'd shot this Glock 40 that day. Um, and it was the loudest click I've ever heard in my life, and probably the quickest sobering thing that I've ever seen. (clicks tongue) (exhales)
- JRJoe Rogan
Holy shit.
- DMDakota Meyer
(clicks tongue) Um... (exhales) And so, I sat there, and I, uh, I... I just told myself that if I'm gonna continue to live life like I am and waste it, then I know how to load this gun. I need to just rack it back and get it over with. But I just made this deal with myself that if I'm gonna put, put the car in drive and go home, that, like, this is not an option ever again. And, um...... I, you know, God gave me a different ... Had a different, different, different outcome for me. And I drove home, and ever since then, I mean, I mean, you know, look, I think we all, I think we all go through moments where we don't know ... there, there's always these moments where we don't know if we can get out of it, right? Like, that's normal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
But for that to stay that way is not normal, right? And that was, you know, I, I, I like slowed up on drinking. I didn't stop, obviously. I didn't st- really slow up as where I needed to be until I had my child. Um, but I got a lot better, right? I started surrounding myself with different people, people who weren't gonna buy in and support my bullshit, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
So that moment when the gun went click, like, i- in your mind is there like a clear change between before that moment and after that moment? Was there like a ... I mean, was there a, there, there was there a, was it like a realization? Was it, it was just-
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... like you felt like you got a second chance at life? Like ...
- 7:19 – 9:08
Survivor’s guilt and honoring fallen teammates by living ‘worthy’
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, I mean, look, I've ... Yeah. I mean, I've been in so many situations where I was supposed to die, or I thought I ... Like, there's been at least five or six situations where it wasn't that I thought I was gonna die, it was that I knew I was gonna die. And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
In combat situations?
- DMDakota Meyer
In combat situations, right? It's a totally different experience, though. You know, this one was like, it's like, get, like, like why? Like, you know? And, and I think at that moment I realized that I was only feeling sorry for myself because if my teammates, like if losing my teammates ... You know, it, it, I mean, it sucks. Like, it still sucks. Like, I, I, I sometimes I don't even know if I have even came to the realization that I'll never see my guys again. Um, uh, and I don't know why. It's kind of weird, but, uh, you know, I don't know why. But I think that, like, I just realized that I need to live a life, if I don't want to do it for myself, then I need to live a life that's worthy of their sacrifices, right? Like, how stupid is it, how selfish of it, of me, someone who has seen what the cost of freedom is, or someone who has seen the sacrifices that people have gave who don't get it, don't get it tomorrow. They gave their today so that we can have a tomorrow. And how selfish of it is it for me to walk around and, and, and, you know, be a drunk asshole, and that's the representation that I'm gonna represent their sacrifices? Like, it's, it's just, it's such a, um, it's just not right. And that was at that moment that all that started to come together, that, no, no, I just feel sorry for myself, not them. They don't feel anything. So, I'm feeling sorry for myself, and then as I'm doing that, I'm wasting days that, that they, I guarantee they wish they had.
- 9:08 – 11:44
Veteran suicide, PTSD stigma, and the fine line between explanation and excuse
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, it's such a common problem with veterans. I mean, I believe at one point in time, I don't know what the, the status is now, but at one point in time, more veterans had died by suicide, um, in Afghanistan than had died from combat.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, I mean, I've lost more guys since being home to suicide than I ever lost in combat.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is, um ... Let's see what that number is. See if you can find ... There, I think m- just, just Google more veterans die from suicide than combat, 'cause I think that was what they were trying to, uh, drill into people was that asking people to go over there and fight and to see the horrors that they see and to, to see friends die and loved ones die, and then to ask them to come back and have life just be normal. Look at this. Four times as many troops and vets have died by suicide as in combat.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Holy shit.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this is not a, an uncommon problem. It's a, it's a giant problem.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a huge problem.
- JRJoe Rogan
They don't ... I don't, man, I don't know what kind of training they give you when you're about to leave the militory- military, or when they're, when you're returning from combat, but do they try to give you any sort of an understanding of how to cope with this kind of stuff?
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, I mean, you know, uh, it- it's, it's obviously gotten a lot better, right? I mean, it was more the tough love. I mean, it's more, the more that mental health is accepted, I mean. I mean, you, look, I mean, to be honest, I mean, as men, 10, 15 years ago, it wasn't something ... It was looked at as weak, right? Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
You didn't hear a lot about it. It seems-
- DMDakota Meyer
We-
- JRJoe Rogan
... like somewhere along the line, I mean, I don't know what the statistics show, but it seems like somewhere along the line, it became way more common to know people that killed themselves.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and I, I didn't underst- I didn't know about it until obviously the, the military, right? I mean, I went in at 17. And, um, but no, there wasn't a lot of talk about it, and, um, you know, I, the more, the more we were in combat, the more you started to see it, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
And, uh, yeah, I mean, this thing of PTSD, but I mean, PTSD is something that, that the world suffers from. It's not something that's only to, to veterans, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't you think that veterans have it in a larger experience if you experience combat? I mean, the amount that they have, I mean, so many guys that I know like-
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... yourself or some, many of my other friends that are veterans, they just have memories that they can't shake.
- 11:44 – 19:07
First responders and trauma: firefighting, policing, and constant hypervigilance
- DMDakota Meyer
I think that, uh, you wanna talk about the group of people that have it the worst is our first responders.
- JRJoe Rogan
Cops.
- DMDakota Meyer
Cops.
- JRJoe Rogan
EMTs.
- DMDakota Meyer
Firefighters.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yep.
- DMDakota Meyer
EMTs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
Like, like, uh, the stuff that I've seen as being a firefighter, um, sometimes, like, combat was ... it's no comparison.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, I mean, and so-You know, and, and over there, the mind, like, the, you know, the mindset's different, right? Like, like, I mean, m- most of the people that we were part of, like, we were there to fight, right? So it's, it's like, it's, it's almost like, you know, watching someone in the octagon fight versus watching someone (laughs) on a street fight, you know, get jumped, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
It's a, it's, it's a different ballgame. And, um, you know, s- s- e- everybody's suffering, right? I mean, and so, I think that, like, the mental health aspect, yeah, I mean, it's a huge, huge thing. Um, but I also think that, that the mindset, the approach that we take on it is important as well, right? Like, like, I don't need to, um... I don't need to... I don't need to be coddled, right? Like, okay, I have, I have PTSD, check. Um, but that doesn't give me, like, a card to blame, well, why I'm an alcoholic or why I'm not getting help or, or why I hit my wife or why I'm in fights. You know what I mean? Like, well, let's get help. Like, like, let's get help, and let's wanna get better. You know? There's just a fine line of, of, of using it as an excuse versus as what's, what's real on it, right? And no one can identify that. But it's like, at some point, you have to look in the mirror and want... Uh, I mean, look, Jocko talks about extreme ownership, right? You have to look in the mirror, and at the point that you can take responsibility for your actions, you can then change them.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you think about PTSD and you think about the effect that it has on you, um, is being a firefighter, does it compound all of the, the PTSD that you experienced as a combat veteran? I mean, does it, uh, is it...
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, I don't know. Like yet, I was at... This was a conversation I was having this morning. I, I don't know. Like, um, for me, I've changed my mindset. Um, for me, I mean, there are some stuff that bothers me. I mean, obviously, uh, look, every time, it changes you. Um, or for me, it does. And, but now I look at it, like, when I come in and, and, and I'm with... I'm there when somebody, you know, passes away, um, I, I look at it as an honor, right? Like I, I got to share that moment with them. And as long as I can do... I'm doing whatever I can to make that moment better for them, then that's all I can do, right? And, uh, I'll do whatever it takes to make that moment better. But at some point, uh, we have... We really have no control of anything in life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, we, we have some control, right? But yeah, the, the, those kind of experiences, like the experience of seeing someone die, uh, for a lot of people, it, it doesn't just change you, but it, it makes you... I don't know what the best way to say it is, but you, you're just devastated by it. And every time it happens, it becomes compounded. It's more and more and more. And is there... Like, one of the things that I've thought about a lot with police officers, because I feel like... Look, there's bad cops. We all know there's bad cops, just like there's bad everything else in life. But I think that most cops are... The experiences that they have in situations where their life is threatened, situations where they pull people over, they have no idea if this person has a gun, if this person's a criminal. They, they, they just don't know. There's so many moments in their life where they, uh, they... I'm sure they've seen all the YouTube videos that I've seen.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, where cops get shot at and cops get killed, run over by cars, and all that crazy shit.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, that, that has gotta be always chipping at your mental wellbeing.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, I mean, we're... I mean, you're always living in that, that s- that sense of, of that fight, right? That-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
... fight or flight. And yeah, I mean, look, I... The respect I have for cops is just... It's astronomical, right? Like, you know, being on scenes and, and seeing like... Look, we're, we're... As firefighter, we're kind... Like, the way (laughs) , the way I'll describe it is, is cops are kind of like the dad of, of, of the country. When they show up, like, nobody's happy. Like, there's never a time that people are like... You know, like s- somebody's gonna be mad, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, somebody's gonna be mad.
- DMDakota Meyer
Um, somebody's mad. When the firefighters show up, we're kind of like the cool uncles, you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DMDakota Meyer
Like, we, we really can't... What are we gonna do wrong, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, you're there to help.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, and then, uh, you know, when EMS shows up, they're kind of like the, the moms, right? Like, they, they're the caring... They're gonna, they're gonna fix it. They're gonna... They're gonna... They... The empathy's there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 19:07 – 24:40
Fear contagion and media incentives: from pandemic panic to outrage economics
- DMDakota Meyer
Because guess what? Hate and fear makes money. You know, I, I truly believe that... L- Look, and, and love will go further than hate and fear. Love, lo- love will 100% go further, right? And... But hate and fear, every... Like, think about any time you feel fear or you hate, that was put into you by somebody else 90% of the time. Like, h- look at the stuff we're scared of. What, because somebody told us? Right? Because, you know what I mean? It's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what kind of stuff, you mean?
- DMDakota Meyer
I mean, like... I don't know, like, sometimes I... you know, I'll get anxiety about, um... Well, I mean, o- just like right now, like, well, you know, well, let's go pull our... How about this? Toilet paper.
- JRJoe Rogan
You get anxiety over toilet paper?
- DMDakota Meyer
No, I'm saying like... No, no, no. I'm saying like... No, I'm saying, like, whenever, whenever the pandemic hit-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
You know, it, it's contagious, right? Like, freaking out, fear is contagious. Somebody seen somebody go buy toilet paper, and it's like, then next thing you know, toilet paper is all out, right? Like, like, it's, it's cont- All these things are contagious, and it's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
... fear sells. Fear... I mean, what... Like, if you thought about it, what was toilet paper gonna do for you in this, right? And at the end of the day, at the end of the day, like, we could live without toilet paper. You know what I mean? Like, it's not a survival instinct.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think what happened during the pandemic was people were tested in a way that they'd never been tested before. Like, we'd, we'd never experienced a moment in our life where there was a real fear that society was gonna be completely disrupted and that a, a disease was gonna ravage everybody. And even though it turned out to be a terrible disease, it wasn't nearly as bad as what we were fearful of. What we were feel- fearful of was some kind of plague that would just wipe everybody out.
- DMDakota Meyer
For sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that... I think that initial mindset that people had was very difficult to shake.
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Even now that, you know, COVID... This new variant, this Omicron, is not nearly as dangerous. It's much more contagious, but not nearly as deadly. There's some people that still want to treat it like it's the thing that's gonna kill everybody. They still want to have this sort of same mindset because that's the initial mindset they had.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, I think when people were stockpiling toilet paper and stockpiling food, there was a fear, a fear mindset, a mindset of the unknown that gripped people, that a lot of folks are just not willing to let go of.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I... Yeah. I mean, that's a whole, that's a whole thing that I don't... Yeah, I don't understand. Do you know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you know, you've experienced-
- DMDakota Meyer
We're all at different-
- JRJoe Rogan
... a lot of, like, real danger-
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and, you know, real life-threatening situations. You've seen peop- You've taken lives. You've seen people's, you know, lives leave their body. It's, uh... You know, the level... That's the thing that I... One of the things that I truly appreciate about veterans is you don't get to do what they do unless you've experienced massive amounts of adversity.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just getting through... I mean, you're talk- If you're talking about someone who's a SEAL, just getting through BUD/S, I mean, uh, uh, how... What fucking percentage of human beings that walk around could do that? Very few.
- DMDakota Meyer
Not many. Not many.
- JRJoe Rogan
Very few. They're different humans, you know? And it's because they've overcome adversity. And for some people, any kind of thing that throws their regular routine off track will fuck them up. Hey, um, Jamie, can you tell Jeff to bring in the coffee and, and cups with water too? There was no cups for the water.
- DMDakota Meyer
Um, yeah. I mean, but, but don't you think that, like... You know, the people who haven't... I mean, the only way, you know, you don't have... you don't get exposed to adversity is by fear.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
Right? And so again-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 24:40 – 31:15
Adversity as a teacher: jiu-jitsu, football, and learning through controlled struggle
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it could be both, but I also think it's like you... I think you need some challenges. You know, some of my favorite people besides veterans are, are, uh, jujitsu people.
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And one of the reasons why is 'cause they experience so much adversity. Like, and I mean, like, it's, it's safe. It's, you know, it's all controlled. It's in a controlled environment. But in that moment when someone's trying to strangle you and you're, you're literally fighting for your life, it doesn't f- feel safe. It doesn't feel controlled. Someone's got your back and that, that forearm goes underneath your neck, and you're like, "Oh, shit."
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, you w- you know the reality is you're playing a game, and that game is, "I'm gonna kill you with my bare hands." And when that guy gets your back and gets your neck, he just killed you. And then you tap and you go again. But even though you survive and even though it's safe, it's a way of recreating. It's like a fac- a facsimile, you know? It's like a reasonable version of a life-or-death scenario that gets to play out all the time. Most of the time, it's very peaceful. Most of the time, it's fun. You slap hands. It's all good. But there's moments in these struggles where you're outta breath and then all of a sudden, this guy mounts you and you're like, "Ah, fuck." Like, those moments most people never experience-
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that thing where you, you have to push because you, e- either you're gonna escape or you're gonna submit. And having moments in your life where you're really tested gets you to understand who you are, gets you to understand where your character lies, gets you understand what, what your thresholds are, what, what your s- where your strengths are, where your weaknesses are, lets you strengthen those weaknesses in a very real, usable way. I think most people, they don't experience enough difficult scenarios in their life. And one of the things that I love most about jujitsu is you could just take a regular person, and you could transform them. And, and through this difficult game that you're playing, you can change the way you interface with reality. You'll, you'll have more character. You'll have more, more ability to withstand difficult situations. They'll be more normal for you.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, look, you, you... Until you've gone through it, I call it the lens of life. You know, your lens gets shaped on what to focus on by what you've seen through it, right? And, and kind of prioritizing. Um, you know, football was that for me. I mean, I, I do, I do- I don't roll enough, but, like, I do jujitsu. But, like, um, you know, football was that for me growing up, was... It was about getting hit and about, about having to get back up, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
About someone stopping you. I mean, it was a team sport. It was your... You're relying on other people to help protect you. Y- y- you're not gonna win a football game by yourself. Um, you know, it was kinda like that, uh, about, you know, lose, lose five yards and then have to get back up and try to get it again. Um, you know, that was what it was for me growing up, was that was my contact sport, about, you know, look, you can look over and see what guys are gonna, are gonna rock your bell, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
Um, and that was kinda what it was for me. Look, I love jujitsu too. I mean, jujitsu's exactly what you're talking about. I mean, there's nothing m- more, more nerve-racking than, uh, someone being on top of you and you can't breathe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
Right? Like, and 'cause at that point, they have control of you. At, at that point, they're deciding your fate.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
I mean, yeah, I mean, we could, you know, we could roll jujitsu. And if they get their arm around your neck, I mean, they get to decide if they let go.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
You know? And it's, it's a real vulnerability and test of, of you being there, right? I mean, the more experience you have in adversity and tough times and, and, and coming out of it and, and trying to figure out... And I think that's the cool thing about jujitsu is, is you roll and then you try to figure out, okay, so obviously, when you, when you have to tap, that was not where you wanted to be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. How'd you get there?
- DMDakota Meyer
How did I get there?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
Right? Like, what did I do wrong?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
And isn't there so much to be, to be, to be said about that? Like, what if we did that in life?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
Like, check. I got here. I messed up. But the problem is in life now or the way the world is now that you can't, you can't go back. Like, you can't say, "Oh, well, tsk, I did the best I could right there. I wouldn't do it again, and this is how I would fix it." Because now, like, the world just doesn't accept it. Like, it's almost like the haha, got you, right? Like, it's a, it's a, it is just... To apologize at this day and age, like, means you're done. Like, it's almost like apologies are, are... It just means it's gonna be brought up and held against you forever. It's like you just admitted to what they were right about. And it's like, how does that make sense? Like, how do you get better from not messing up? Like, how do you get better from... I mean, I mess up every single day (laughs) and I, I just apologize. And I mean it. I mean it when I'm sorry. Like, I don't wanna hurt anybody.
- JRJoe Rogan
People would say at a certain point in time if you keep apologizing for the same thing, you're just getting away with apologizing. You're not fixing yourself, right?
- DMDakota Meyer
But that's the difference, right? Is that's one thing, but it's a difference for me to just apologize when I'm sorry-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
... like, I messed... "Hey, sorry, I didn't, you know, this is how I..." Like, "I, I didn't understand how this made you feel," or, "I didn't mean to do that." Like-
- 31:15 – 1:01:28
Psychedelic healing in Mexico: ibogaine’s ruthless introspection and 5-MeO’s reconnection
- DMDakota Meyer
I went to Mexico.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was in Mexico?
- DMDakota Meyer
Um, I went down and I did ibogaine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- DMDakota Meyer
Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did we talk about that the first time you were on the podcast?
- DMDakota Meyer
No, I think I did it afterwards.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, really? Interesting.
- DMDakota Meyer
Um, but yeah, no, I went to-
- JRJoe Rogan
How was that?
- DMDakota Meyer
Uh, it gave me my life back. I mean, it gave me my life back. Like, uh, I went down and, um ... I had just got to the end. And I talked about it in this book. Um, and I was going through my divorce. Um, I ... Oh, gosh, I did- ... You talk about not knowing what was next, I mean, literally, you know, just ... Gosh, I was just a n- I was melting down, just melting down from the inside. And, um ... And finally, like, one of my friends looked at me and he's like, he's like, "Hey, I just went and did this. Um, this is the date you're going. You need to go do this." And it was at that point, like ... You know, I grew up in, in Kentucky, and I, I, I mean, I grew up with weed is bad, right? I mean, all of this, right? You know what I mean?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
And, and for me, it was just such a, it was just such a ... To think that I was gonna go do psychedelics-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DMDakota Meyer
... it was just, like, such a m- Like, it was like a moral thing for me, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
I mean, it was a moral, moral, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Dilemma.
- DMDakota Meyer
... dilemma.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DMDakota Meyer
And, um ... But I di- I mean, it was all I had left, and I knew that for my daughters I needed to do something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you describe the experience?
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah. I mean, I went down and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wait, where'd you go?
- DMDakota Meyer
To ... Well, I flew into San Diego and then we just went across the border somewhere. I don't, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, it's w- like close to Tijuana?
- DMDakota Meyer
A little south of that. Like, start with an E.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
So, um, yeah, I don't know where it was. But went down there and, uh, took the, took the ibogaine at like 8:00 PM at night on Friday, and, uh, it kicked in, like, an hour later. And it was, it was like I was walking through this, this, um, like gloomy city. I was kinda, like, walking through a gloomy city, like it, like overcast. Does that make sense?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- 1:01:28 – 1:14:54
After the trip: anxiety attacks stop, but the inner critic becomes manageable fuel
- JRJoe Rogan
And then, what is life like right after that?
- DMDakota Meyer
You know, before... B- so before I went down there, I mean, I was having an anxiety attack a week.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what does that mean? Like, what is, what, what happens during your anxiety attacks?
- DMDakota Meyer
You know, like, I'll wake up throwing up. Like, I'd be in the floor, like, throwing up, crying. Just, just, like, can't control it.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's, uh, eh, uh, but... And when you say anxiety, like, what are you thinking?
- DMDakota Meyer
You know, I, I... Just that, how much of a failure I am.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? That's what it was?
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
A failure?
- DMDakota Meyer
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's probably... A- a- and look, I'm not gonna say those thoughts go away. You know, like, while I'm on that truck, while I was on that truck the other day, all I was telling myself was just, like, you know, I could just... I can remember it vividly, of, "You're a piece of shit. Look how... This is, this is you. Like, you, you didn't bring the window punch with you. How could you mess up so bad? Now this guy's gonna die because of you." And then I'm watching my friends swim out there and I'm just thinking to myself like, "Oh, look at you, you're an idiot. And now you've brought them in here, and now they're gonna drown and you're gonna, you're gonna get your friends killed." And then... And, you know, I mean, like, it was just, like, the whole time, I'm literally like... My brain is just talking shit to me-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- DMDakota Meyer
... of like, "Oh, yeah, you know what?" Like, "You're, you're, you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to get this guy out now, because you didn't train hard enough," right? Like, it's just, like, all these things, like, just, just, just beating it, right? Um, and I don't know why it works that way (laughs) , right? But it, it works for me-
- JRJoe Rogan
When you were c-
- DMDakota Meyer
... a lot too, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
When you were growing up, did you have, uh, parents that were very critical of you?
- DMDakota Meyer
Um, uh... You know, I mean, like, there, there was accountability. Everything was black and white, right? Like, everything was accountability, right? You know, my... I mean, look, my dad, my grandpa... I mean, I, I grew up with my mom until I was like 10, and then I, I went over to my dad. And, um, you know, my dad, my dad's the one that... My dad and my grandfather and my grandmother, like, they're just... They're the greatest people I've ever met. And I... If I can be half of them, I- I'll be somebody. Um, but it was just like... It was more of a... There's right and wrong. There's, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
But was there a thing back then about you not being good enough?
- DMDakota Meyer
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nothing?
- DMDakota Meyer
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Nothing?
- DMDakota Meyer
Never.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, why do you have that thought in your head now, do you think? Like, why, why do you, uh-
- DMDakota Meyer
Because I couldn't save my team, you know? Like, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, is that when it started?
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah. Yeah. I mean... You know, and then the medal just made it worse.
- JRJoe Rogan
And for people who don't know what you're talking about, we had a long conversation about this on the, the first podcast that we did together. And it's, uh, a harrowing story. I mean, it's, w- wild shit what you went through. Um, and I would just tell people to s- you know, go listen to that.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you don't have to say it again.
- DMDakota Meyer
Yeah. But that, that's where it comes from, you know? Like, you know, I, uh, I don't know. Like I... When I walked in that valley that day, like, I truly thought that I was... I thought I was good at something, right?
Episode duration: 3:02:29
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