Joe Rogan Experience #1787 - Dakota Meyer

Dakota Meyer 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays)

Joe Rogan 0:12 Dakota, what's happening brother? How are you?

Dakota Meyer 0:13 Good to see you. What's up, man?

Joe Rogan 0:15 You wrote a book, man.

Dakota Meyer 0:16 I did. I did, with, with Rob O'Neil.

Joe Rogan 0:18 The Way Forward.

Dakota Meyer 0:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:20 Master life's toughest battles, and create your lasting legacy. What, uh, what drove you to this?

Dakota Meyer 0:27 You know, like, I, I, I think that there was, like, a p- a point in my life to where I kind of just j- had, you know, kind of put it all together of, like, wanting to help people. You know, like the way forward. There's always a way forward. You know, my, my life's been such a shit show in so many ways. (laughs) Um, and s- obviously Rob's has too. That was one thing we could relate on is, like, you know, we both came from two different places, did two different things, but, like, there's always a way forward, you know, focusing on what matters.

Joe Rogan 0:52 Was there a time in your life where you didn't think there was a way forward? Were you...

Dakota Meyer 0:56 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I wrote about that in my first book about, (clears throat) you know, a time that, um, I just didn't know if there was a way forward. But, you know, what, what I, what I learned was, is like, you know, when you don't see a way forward, it's because your purpose is yourself, and it's not other things, right? People that, people that are lost. Or, I felt like when I'm lost is when I'm too busy focusing on things for me and that... My, my purpose is me, and it's not, like, the things that are around me, the things that matter.

Joe Rogan 1:24 Like, in what way? What do you mean?

Dakota Meyer 1:27 (smacks lips) You know, like my kids. Like, my friends. My circle, right?

Joe Rogan 1:29 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:29 Like, doing something bigger than me. Like, focusing on something that's, that's bigger than, than just, you know, trying to survive. Like, okay, well, I'm gonna go pay my bills. Well, that's not really a, a, a great purpose, right?

Joe Rogan 1:42 Right.

Dakota Meyer 1:42 But, but finding something bigger that you could believe in, like, you know, being a firefighter, or being a good dad, or, you know, just the, trying to have goals of fitness, or start a company, or all those things, right?

Joe Rogan 1:56 So, did you feel like, uh, at one point in time where y- you were only thinking about yourself, and you didn't see there was any point to it all? Is that what you mean?

Dakota Meyer 2:06 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I got out of the Marine Corps. And, um, you know, I got out, and it was all about me, right? It's like, "Oh, you know, I, um, I served this country. This country owes me now." Um, you know, 'cause, look, when you're in the military, you're... The whole time you're told you're a hero.

Joe Rogan 2:22 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 2:22 You know what I mean? Like, oh, everybody's just, they're, they're... You're just, you're just greater people, you know? All these things. You sacrificed for this country. This country owes you. And I hate that word owes, right? Like, owes. The only thing we owe is the bank. Um, but, you know, I, I... That, that was where I was at, and I was walking around blaming all my problems on, you know... Well, you know, I, I'm an alco- you know, I'm drinking all the time. I wasn't an alcoholic, but just drinking all the time, trying to, you know, overcome the pain of, you know, the stuff that I'd seen and things that didn't make sense. And, and then, you know, when you would try to question me or hold me accountable, I'd be like, "Well, (scoffs) you didn't go through what I went through." Right? And so, how are you gonna argue it? Um, you know, and I was surrounded by that. I was, I was the victim. I made myself the victim of, of life. And, you know, at that point was where I got the lowest, right? Like, I, I just couldn't... You know, 'cause at some point, like, people are gonna, they're gonna try to help you.

Joe Rogan 3:18 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 3:18 Like, that's the great thing about the world is people are gonna help you. People want to help. But they can only help you so far. Like, they're not gonna drown with you.

Joe Rogan 3:25 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 3:26 Especially when you're not choosing to, to, to get better. And that was where I was at, you know. Like, just drinking all the time. You know, being... I was, I was an asshole. Like, I mean, I'm still an asshole, but just a different way.

Joe Rogan 3:36 (laughs)

Dakota Meyer 3:36 (laughs) Uh, you know. Um, I was an asshole, and just, you know, blaming, blaming the world for my problems, when really, I was the problem. You know? I just didn't have anything bigger than me. And I would surround myself by people who would, who wanted to coddle me, right? Like, "Oh, Dakota, you know, what you've gone through, you know, you, you deserve... You know, you're... It, it's okay. This is normal for what you've gone through." And it's like, no. No, no. Like, that's what America is about, is the comeback story, right? Like, everybody's gonna go through their problems. Everybody's gonna have their lumps, but America, they, they want the comeback story, you know?

Joe Rogan 4:14 What was it that made you turn around? Like, did you have a moment? Did, did... Is it something you read? Is it something you learned?

Dakota Meyer 4:22 No, I, um... You know, so I was living at my dad's house. I was living with my dad. Uh, my dad's just an incredible man. And, um, one night, I'm, I was out drinking somewhere, and I was driving home on this road. And I just seen, like, the pain I was causing the people around me, right? Like, my dad was never gonna kick me out of the house, but I, I mean, I just seen, like, the disappointment, right? Like, the disappointment in people, uh, that I was, that I was bringing. And, um, I was driving down the road one night, and I just said, "Look, this is it." Like, "I'm done." I pulled over at my buddy's shop. Uh, he had a welding shop. And I... 'Cause I knew that I didn't want to inconvenience anybody to have to, "Well, where's he at?" This huge search. I knew he would be in at 8:00, or 6:00, 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning. He comes in every day. Um, I pulled over and, uh, parked right in front of the bay door, and, uh, pulled my gun out, and I stuck it to my head and squeezed the trigger. And, uh, so, like, somebody had unloaded that gun. Uh, I'd shot it that day, actually. I'd shot this Glock 40 that day. Um, and it was the loudest click I've ever heard in my life, and probably the quickest sobering thing that I've ever seen. (clicks tongue) (exhales)

Joe Rogan 5:35 Holy shit.

Dakota Meyer 5:36 (clicks tongue) Um... (exhales) And so, I sat there, and I, uh, I... I just told myself that if I'm gonna continue to live life like I am and waste it, then I know how to load this gun. I need to just rack it back and get it over with. But I just made this deal with myself that if I'm gonna put, put the car in drive and go home, that, like, this is not an option ever again. And, um...... I, you know, God gave me a different ... Had a different, different, different outcome for me. And I drove home, and ever since then, I mean, I mean, you know, look, I think we all, I think we all go through moments where we don't know ... there, there's always these moments where we don't know if we can get out of it, right? Like, that's normal.

Joe Rogan 6:27 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 6:29 But for that to stay that way is not normal, right? And that was, you know, I, I, I like slowed up on drinking. I didn't stop, obviously. I didn't st- really slow up as where I needed to be until I had my child. Um, but I got a lot better, right? I started surrounding myself with different people, people who weren't gonna buy in and support my bullshit, you know?

Joe Rogan 6:57 So that moment when the gun went click, like, i- in your mind is there like a clear change between before that moment and after that moment? Was there like a ... I mean, was there a, there, there was there a, was it like a realization? Was it, it was just-

Dakota Meyer 7:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:17 ... like you felt like you got a second chance at life? Like ...

Dakota Meyer 7:19 Yeah, I mean, look, I've ... Yeah. I mean, I've been in so many situations where I was supposed to die, or I thought I ... Like, there's been at least five or six situations where it wasn't that I thought I was gonna die, it was that I knew I was gonna die. And, um-

Joe Rogan 7:37 In combat situations?

Dakota Meyer 7:38 In combat situations, right? It's a totally different experience, though. You know, this one was like, it's like, get, like, like why? Like, you know? And, and I think at that moment I realized that I was only feeling sorry for myself because if my teammates, like if losing my teammates ... You know, it, it, I mean, it sucks. Like, it still sucks. Like, I, I, I sometimes I don't even know if I have even came to the realization that I'll never see my guys again. Um, uh, and I don't know why. It's kind of weird, but, uh, you know, I don't know why. But I think that, like, I just realized that I need to live a life, if I don't want to do it for myself, then I need to live a life that's worthy of their sacrifices, right? Like, how stupid is it, how selfish of it, of me, someone who has seen what the cost of freedom is, or someone who has seen the sacrifices that people have gave who don't get it, don't get it tomorrow. They gave their today so that we can have a tomorrow. And how selfish of it is it for me to walk around and, and, and, you know, be a drunk asshole, and that's the representation that I'm gonna represent their sacrifices? Like, it's, it's just, it's such a, um, it's just not right. And that was at that moment that all that started to come together, that, no, no, I just feel sorry for myself, not them. They don't feel anything. So, I'm feeling sorry for myself, and then as I'm doing that, I'm wasting days that, that they, I guarantee they wish they had.

Joe Rogan 9:08 Yeah. Um, it's such a common problem with veterans. I mean, I believe at one point in time, I don't know what the, the status is now, but at one point in time, more veterans had died by suicide, um, in Afghanistan than had died from combat.

Dakota Meyer 9:25 Yeah, I mean, I've lost more guys since being home to suicide than I ever lost in combat.

Joe Rogan 9:32 What is, um ... Let's see what that number is. See if you can find ... There, I think m- just, just Google more veterans die from suicide than combat, 'cause I think that was what they were trying to, uh, drill into people was that asking people to go over there and fight and to see the horrors that they see and to, to see friends die and loved ones die, and then to ask them to come back and have life just be normal. Look at this. Four times as many troops and vets have died by suicide as in combat.

Dakota Meyer 10:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Holy shit.

Dakota Meyer 10:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:11 So this is not a, an uncommon problem. It's a, it's a giant problem.

Dakota Meyer 10:16 Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a huge problem.

Joe Rogan 10:17 They don't ... I don't, man, I don't know what kind of training they give you when you're about to leave the militory- military, or when they're, when you're returning from combat, but do they try to give you any sort of an understanding of how to cope with this kind of stuff?

Dakota Meyer 10:33 Yeah, I mean, you know, uh, it- it's, it's obviously gotten a lot better, right? I mean, it was more the tough love. I mean, it's more, the more that mental health is accepted, I mean. I mean, you, look, I mean, to be honest, I mean, as men, 10, 15 years ago, it wasn't something ... It was looked at as weak, right? Um-

Joe Rogan 10:52 You didn't hear a lot about it. It seems-

Dakota Meyer 10:54 We-

Joe Rogan 10:54 ... like somewhere along the line, I mean, I don't know what the statistics show, but it seems like somewhere along the line, it became way more common to know people that killed themselves.

Dakota Meyer 11:02 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and I, I didn't underst- I didn't know about it until obviously the, the military, right? I mean, I went in at 17. And, um, but no, there wasn't a lot of talk about it, and, um, you know, I, the more, the more we were in combat, the more you started to see it, right?

Joe Rogan 11:19 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 11:19 And, uh, yeah, I mean, this thing of PTSD, but I mean, PTSD is something that, that the world suffers from. It's not something that's only to, to veterans, right?

Joe Rogan 11:29 Don't you think that veterans have it in a larger experience if you experience combat? I mean, the amount that they have, I mean, so many guys that I know like-

Dakota Meyer 11:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:37 ... yourself or some, many of my other friends that are veterans, they just have memories that they can't shake.

Dakota Meyer 11:44 I think that, uh, you wanna talk about the group of people that have it the worst is our first responders.

Joe Rogan 11:51 Cops.

Dakota Meyer 11:51 Cops.

Joe Rogan 11:52 EMTs.

Dakota Meyer 11:52 Firefighters.

Joe Rogan 11:53 Yep.

Dakota Meyer 11:53 EMTs.

Joe Rogan 11:54 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 11:54 Like, like, uh, the stuff that I've seen as being a firefighter, um, sometimes, like, combat was ... it's no comparison.

Joe Rogan 12:06 Really?

Dakota Meyer 12:07 Yeah, I mean, and so-You know, and, and over there, the mind, like, the, you know, the mindset's different, right? Like, like, I mean, m- most of the people that we were part of, like, we were there to fight, right? So it's, it's like, it's, it's almost like, you know, watching someone in the octagon fight versus watching someone (laughs) on a street fight, you know, get jumped, right?

Joe Rogan 12:27 Right.

Dakota Meyer 12:27 It's a, it's, it's a different ballgame. And, um, you know, s- s- e- everybody's suffering, right? I mean, and so, I think that, like, the mental health aspect, yeah, I mean, it's a huge, huge thing. Um, but I also think that, that the mindset, the approach that we take on it is important as well, right? Like, like, I don't need to, um... I don't need to... I don't need to be coddled, right? Like, okay, I have, I have PTSD, check. Um, but that doesn't give me, like, a card to blame, well, why I'm an alcoholic or why I'm not getting help or, or why I hit my wife or why I'm in fights. You know what I mean? Like, well, let's get help. Like, like, let's get help, and let's wanna get better. You know? There's just a fine line of, of, of using it as an excuse versus as what's, what's real on it, right? And no one can identify that. But it's like, at some point, you have to look in the mirror and want... Uh, I mean, look, Jocko talks about extreme ownership, right? You have to look in the mirror, and at the point that you can take responsibility for your actions, you can then change them.

Joe Rogan 13:37 So when you think about PTSD and you think about the effect that it has on you, um, is being a firefighter, does it compound all of the, the PTSD that you experienced as a combat veteran? I mean, does it, uh, is it...

Dakota Meyer 13:56 Yeah, I don't know. Like yet, I was at... This was a conversation I was having this morning. I, I don't know. Like, um, for me, I've changed my mindset. Um, for me, I mean, there are some stuff that bothers me. I mean, obviously, uh, look, every time, it changes you. Um, or for me, it does. And, but now I look at it, like, when I come in and, and, and I'm with... I'm there when somebody, you know, passes away, um, I, I look at it as an honor, right? Like I, I got to share that moment with them. And as long as I can do... I'm doing whatever I can to make that moment better for them, then that's all I can do, right? And, uh, I'll do whatever it takes to make that moment better. But at some point, uh, we have... We really have no control of anything in life.

Joe Rogan 14:52 Like, we, we have some control, right? But yeah, the, the, those kind of experiences, like the experience of seeing someone die, uh, for a lot of people, it, it doesn't just change you, but it, it makes you... I don't know what the best way to say it is, but you, you're just devastated by it. And every time it happens, it becomes compounded. It's more and more and more. And is there... Like, one of the things that I've thought about a lot with police officers, because I feel like... Look, there's bad cops. We all know there's bad cops, just like there's bad everything else in life. But I think that most cops are... The experiences that they have in situations where their life is threatened, situations where they pull people over, they have no idea if this person has a gun, if this person's a criminal. They, they, they just don't know. There's so many moments in their life where they, uh, they... I'm sure they've seen all the YouTube videos that I've seen.

Dakota Meyer 15:48 Yep.

Joe Rogan 15:48 You know, where cops get shot at and cops get killed, run over by cars, and all that crazy shit.

Dakota Meyer 15:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:53 Like, that, that has gotta be always chipping at your mental wellbeing.

Dakota Meyer 15:59 Yeah, I mean, we're... I mean, you're always living in that, that s- that sense of, of that fight, right? That-

Joe Rogan 16:06 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 16:06 ... fight or flight. And yeah, I mean, look, I... The respect I have for cops is just... It's astronomical, right? Like, you know, being on scenes and, and seeing like... Look, we're, we're... As firefighter, we're kind... Like, the way (laughs) , the way I'll describe it is, is cops are kind of like the dad of, of, of the country. When they show up, like, nobody's happy. Like, there's never a time that people are like... You know, like s- somebody's gonna be mad, right?

Joe Rogan 16:32 Yeah, somebody's gonna be mad.

Dakota Meyer 16:33 Um, somebody's mad. When the firefighters show up, we're kind of like the cool uncles, you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 16:37 (laughs)

Dakota Meyer 16:37 Like, we, we really can't... What are we gonna do wrong, right?

Joe Rogan 16:39 Right, you're there to help.

Dakota Meyer 16:40 Yeah, and then, uh, you know, when EMS shows up, they're kind of like the, the moms, right? Like, they, they're the caring... They're gonna, they're gonna fix it. They're gonna... They're gonna... They... The empathy's there.

Joe Rogan 16:49 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 16:50 Um, and I'm not saying that all three don't have empathy. I'm just saying that they all have to hold themselves in a different way because they're all there for a different role.

Joe Rogan 16:57 Right.

Dakota Meyer 16:58 And, um, you know, being a cop, you know, look, tho- those guys are just... They're incredible because they could go from coming over and, and, you know, Miss, Miss Whoever, uh, Miss, you know, M- Miss Nancy or whatever, Miss Smith, you know, she's having... You know, she might think somebody's at her house, or, you know, maybe the next door neighbor's a little too loud, and, you know, he's gotta handle it one way. And then the next person that he pulls over, um, he could walk up to a car. They could walk up to a car and could pull a gun and shoot him.

Joe Rogan 17:28 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 17:29 And, and he... And they have to be ready for everything.

Joe Rogan 17:32 Right.

Dakota Meyer 17:33 And, um, yeah, those guys are just... They're, they're a different... They have to live a different life, (laughs) you know?

Joe Rogan 17:40 A totally different life than everybody else.

Dakota Meyer 17:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:42 And we expect them to just be able to do it-

Dakota Meyer 17:45 When you-

Joe Rogan 17:45 ... and be able to handle it.

Dakota Meyer 17:46 And the factor we don't take into account, you know, is the humanization factor, right? Like, I mean, are you always on when you're having a bad day? You know what I mean? Like-

Joe Rogan 17:57 Right.

Dakota Meyer 17:57 Like, the... Their... You know, they... their kid-

Joe Rogan 17:59 Right.

Dakota Meyer 17:59 ... could have been late from school. They could have a sick kid. They could be arguing with their wife.

Joe Rogan 18:02 Sure.

Dakota Meyer 18:03 I mean, like, or her husband or whatever, right? And, and we, we don't ever look at that and say, you know, "Well, what did they just go through?" What, what, what, what's going on in their per..." Like, they're... They literally show up to fix everybody else's problems.

Joe Rogan 18:18 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 18:20 You know, while they have to deal with their own.

Joe Rogan 18:23 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 18:24 And they're scrutinized on how they do it.

Joe Rogan 18:26 Not just scrutinized, but, you know, if they fuck up, it ruins their entire life.

Dakota Meyer 18:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:31 You know?

Dakota Meyer 18:31 Everything's on the line.

Joe Rogan 18:32 Yeah. It's, um, it's a very, very, very difficult job, and I don't think it gets nearly the respect that it deserves. And all we concentrate on is the ones that suck, the, the cops that suck at their job, or the cops that are assholes, or the cops that are abusive, and that's what we think about.

Dakota Meyer 18:49 That's it.

Joe Rogan 18:50 We think about cops that plant evidence, cops that shoot people unnecessarily. That's all we think about.

Dakota Meyer 18:55 Because they're the only ones that get attention.

Joe Rogan 18:58 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 18:59 Right? Like, they're the only ones you see. I mean, it's kind of like everything. It's kind of like everything, like, like, you only see the bad ones. The media loves to focus on the bad ones.

Joe Rogan 19:07 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 19:07 Because guess what? Hate and fear makes money. You know, I, I truly believe that... L- Look, and, and love will go further than hate and fear. Love, lo- love will 100% go further, right? And... But hate and fear, every... Like, think about any time you feel fear or you hate, that was put into you by somebody else 90% of the time. Like, h- look at the stuff we're scared of. What, because somebody told us? Right? Because, you know what I mean? It's like-

Joe Rogan 19:40 Like, what kind of stuff, you mean?

Dakota Meyer 19:42 I mean, like... I don't know, like, sometimes I... you know, I'll get anxiety about, um... Well, I mean, o- just like right now, like, well, you know, well, let's go pull our... How about this? Toilet paper.

Joe Rogan 19:55 You get anxiety over toilet paper?

Dakota Meyer 19:56 No, I'm saying like... No, no, no. I'm saying like... No, I'm saying, like, whenever, whenever the pandemic hit-

Joe Rogan 20:01 Right.

Dakota Meyer 20:02 You know, it, it's contagious, right? Like, freaking out, fear is contagious. Somebody seen somebody go buy toilet paper, and it's like, then next thing you know, toilet paper is all out, right? Like, like, it's, it's cont- All these things are contagious, and it's like-

Joe Rogan 20:17 Right.

Dakota Meyer 20:17 ... fear sells. Fear... I mean, what... Like, if you thought about it, what was toilet paper gonna do for you in this, right? And at the end of the day, at the end of the day, like, we could live without toilet paper. You know what I mean? Like, it's not a survival instinct.

Joe Rogan 20:32 I think what happened during the pandemic was people were tested in a way that they'd never been tested before. Like, we'd, we'd never experienced a moment in our life where there was a real fear that society was gonna be completely disrupted and that a, a disease was gonna ravage everybody. And even though it turned out to be a terrible disease, it wasn't nearly as bad as what we were fearful of. What we were feel- fearful of was some kind of plague that would just wipe everybody out.

Dakota Meyer 21:00 For sure.

Joe Rogan 21:01 And that... I think that initial mindset that people had was very difficult to shake.

Dakota Meyer 21:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:06 Even now that, you know, COVID... This new variant, this Omicron, is not nearly as dangerous. It's much more contagious, but not nearly as deadly. There's some people that still want to treat it like it's the thing that's gonna kill everybody. They still want to have this sort of same mindset because that's the initial mindset they had.

Dakota Meyer 21:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:26 So, I think when people were stockpiling toilet paper and stockpiling food, there was a fear, a fear mindset, a mindset of the unknown that gripped people, that a lot of folks are just not willing to let go of.

Dakota Meyer 21:39 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I... Yeah. I mean, that's a whole, that's a whole thing that I don't... Yeah, I don't understand. Do you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 21:46 Well, you know, you've experienced-

Dakota Meyer 21:47 We're all at different-

Joe Rogan 21:47 ... a lot of, like, real danger-

Dakota Meyer 21:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:50 ... and, you know, real life-threatening situations. You've seen peop- You've taken lives. You've seen people's, you know, lives leave their body. It's, uh... You know, the level... That's the thing that I... One of the things that I truly appreciate about veterans is you don't get to do what they do unless you've experienced massive amounts of adversity.

Dakota Meyer 22:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:12 Just getting through... I mean, you're talk- If you're talking about someone who's a SEAL, just getting through BUD/S, I mean, uh, uh, how... What fucking percentage of human beings that walk around could do that? Very few.

Dakota Meyer 22:20 Not many. Not many.

Joe Rogan 22:21 Very few. They're different humans, you know? And it's because they've overcome adversity. And for some people, any kind of thing that throws their regular routine off track will fuck them up. Hey, um, Jamie, can you tell Jeff to bring in the coffee and, and cups with water too? There was no cups for the water.

Dakota Meyer 22:39 Um, yeah. I mean, but, but don't you think that, like... You know, the people who haven't... I mean, the only way, you know, you don't have... you don't get exposed to adversity is by fear.

Joe Rogan 22:53 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 22:53 Right? And so again-

Joe Rogan 22:54 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 22:55 ... whatever's holding you back from doing what you want to do or trying things or experiencing things-

Joe Rogan 23:02 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 23:03 ... it's never as bad. I mean, obviously there are some things that are as bad, but most of the time, you know, you've been so worried about something, and it's not really as bad as you thought it was.

Joe Rogan 23:16 Right. Most of the time, yeah.

Dakota Meyer 23:17 Right? And so... And so that's my thing, is, is like, why were you, why were you fearful of it? Right? Like, it... There h- Like, we d- I don't think that we were born with fear. I mean, I think we were born with, like, natural survivability and, and instinct, right? But I don't think you're, you're born with... You're definitely not born with hate.

Joe Rogan 23:34 Right. Yeah, you're definitely not born with hate. Uh, I mean, I think some people are born... I mean, it's... I think, unfortunately... I mean, I'm just guessing, I'm not really a psychologist, but I think, unfortunately, there's a certain level of fear and anxiety I think kids do, um, adapt or, uh, adopt, rather, from their parents. I think there's... Uh, some of it might even be g- in their genes. You know, people that are neurotic and, and weirded out, maybe they're modeling their parents, maybe they're paying attention to how their parents handle things and they, they handle things similarly.

Dakota Meyer 24:05 For sure.

Joe Rogan 24:06 Or maybe it's, it's passed down. I think there's a lot of shit that's passed down to people, you know? I really do. Just like there's a lot of positive traits that get passed down to people-

Dakota Meyer 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:16 ... I think there's a lot of negative ones too, unfortunately. And I think...... you know, your children learn in many ways, whether it's through genes or whether it's through bl- experience, they learn through ma- in man- many ways through the way you're, the parents handle stuff.

Dakota Meyer 24:30 But do you think, do you think that that's in your DNA or do you think that that's because that's how you seen it done, right? Like...

Joe Rogan 24:38 Could be both.

Dakota Meyer 24:39 Y- y- you know what I mean? Like, ha-

Joe Rogan 24:40 Yeah, it could be both, but I also think it's like you... I think you need some challenges. You know, some of my favorite people besides veterans are, are, uh, jujitsu people.

Dakota Meyer 24:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:50 And one of the reasons why is 'cause they experience so much adversity. Like, and I mean, like, it's, it's safe. It's, you know, it's all controlled. It's in a controlled environment. But in that moment when someone's trying to strangle you and you're, you're literally fighting for your life, it doesn't f- feel safe. It doesn't feel controlled. Someone's got your back and that, that forearm goes underneath your neck, and you're like, "Oh, shit."

Dakota Meyer 25:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:13 Like, you w- you know the reality is you're playing a game, and that game is, "I'm gonna kill you with my bare hands." And when that guy gets your back and gets your neck, he just killed you. And then you tap and you go again. But even though you survive and even though it's safe, it's a way of recreating. It's like a fac- a facsimile, you know? It's like a reasonable version of a life-or-death scenario that gets to play out all the time. Most of the time, it's very peaceful. Most of the time, it's fun. You slap hands. It's all good. But there's moments in these struggles where you're outta breath and then all of a sudden, this guy mounts you and you're like, "Ah, fuck." Like, those moments most people never experience-

Dakota Meyer 25:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:57 ... that thing where you, you have to push because you, e- either you're gonna escape or you're gonna submit. And having moments in your life where you're really tested gets you to understand who you are, gets you to understand where your character lies, gets you understand what, what your thresholds are, what, what your s- where your strengths are, where your weaknesses are, lets you strengthen those weaknesses in a very real, usable way. I think most people, they don't experience enough difficult scenarios in their life. And one of the things that I love most about jujitsu is you could just take a regular person, and you could transform them. And, and through this difficult game that you're playing, you can change the way you interface with reality. You'll, you'll have more character. You'll have more, more ability to withstand difficult situations. They'll be more normal for you.

Dakota Meyer 26:54 Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, look, you, you... Until you've gone through it, I call it the lens of life. You know, your lens gets shaped on what to focus on by what you've seen through it, right? And, and kind of prioritizing. Um, you know, football was that for me. I mean, I, I do, I do- I don't roll enough, but, like, I do jujitsu. But, like, um, you know, football was that for me growing up, was... It was about getting hit and about, about having to get back up, right?

Joe Rogan 27:19 Right.

Dakota Meyer 27:19 About someone stopping you. I mean, it was a team sport. It was your... You're relying on other people to help protect you. Y- y- you're not gonna win a football game by yourself. Um, you know, it was kinda like that, uh, about, you know, lose, lose five yards and then have to get back up and try to get it again. Um, you know, that was what it was for me growing up, was that was my contact sport, about, you know, look, you can look over and see what guys are gonna, are gonna rock your bell, right?

Joe Rogan 27:45 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 27:45 Um, and that was kinda what it was for me. Look, I love jujitsu too. I mean, jujitsu's exactly what you're talking about. I mean, there's nothing m- more, more nerve-racking than, uh, someone being on top of you and you can't breathe.

Joe Rogan 27:58 Right.

Dakota Meyer 27:58 Right? Like, and 'cause at that point, they have control of you. At, at that point, they're deciding your fate.

Joe Rogan 28:04 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 28:04 I mean, yeah, I mean, we could, you know, we could roll jujitsu. And if they get their arm around your neck, I mean, they get to decide if they let go.

Joe Rogan 28:12 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 28:12 You know? And it's, it's a real vulnerability and test of, of you being there, right? I mean, the more experience you have in adversity and tough times and, and, and coming out of it and, and trying to figure out... And I think that's the cool thing about jujitsu is, is you roll and then you try to figure out, okay, so obviously, when you, when you have to tap, that was not where you wanted to be.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Right. How'd you get there?

Dakota Meyer 28:37 How did I get there?

Joe Rogan 28:38 Right.

Dakota Meyer 28:38 Right? Like, what did I do wrong?

Joe Rogan 28:39 Right.

Dakota Meyer 28:40 And isn't there so much to be, to be, to be said about that? Like, what if we did that in life?

Joe Rogan 28:47 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 28:47 Like, check. I got here. I messed up. But the problem is in life now or the way the world is now that you can't, you can't go back. Like, you can't say, "Oh, well, tsk, I did the best I could right there. I wouldn't do it again, and this is how I would fix it." Because now, like, the world just doesn't accept it. Like, it's almost like the haha, got you, right? Like, it's a, it's a, it is just... To apologize at this day and age, like, means you're done. Like, it's almost like apologies are, are... It just means it's gonna be brought up and held against you forever. It's like you just admitted to what they were right about. And it's like, how does that make sense? Like, how do you get better from not messing up? Like, how do you get better from... I mean, I mess up every single day (laughs) and I, I just apologize. And I mean it. I mean it when I'm sorry. Like, I don't wanna hurt anybody.

Joe Rogan 29:43 People would say at a certain point in time if you keep apologizing for the same thing, you're just getting away with apologizing. You're not fixing yourself, right?

Dakota Meyer 29:52 But that's the difference, right? Is that's one thing, but it's a difference for me to just apologize when I'm sorry-

Joe Rogan 29:58 Right.

Dakota Meyer 29:58 ... like, I messed... "Hey, sorry, I didn't, you know, this is how I..." Like, "I, I didn't understand how this made you feel," or, "I didn't mean to do that." Like-

Joe Rogan 30:06 Well, you're being hon- it's just being honest is what it is.

Dakota Meyer 30:08 It's just being, it's just being honest.

Joe Rogan 30:09 Yeah, yeah, I think that's one of the most important things for a person. What I, what I was getting at with the jujitsu analogy is that the, the difficulty is... It, it transfers into your life and, and it can enhance you. But it seems like the difficulty of combat is way more intense and way more insane and w- obviously way more intense and way more insane, but way more difficult to overcome and to learn things from. It's like it seems like for a lot of the combat veterans that I talk to-... their, their experiences are kind of like burned in their brain in some way, where it's not like you're, uh ... I mean, sure, I'm sure they're stronger because of the adversity they've been through, but also some of it is too much and it just leaves them shooken.

Dakota Meyer 30:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:56 You know, they used to call it shell-shocked.

Dakota Meyer 30:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:57 Remember? I mean, that's what they used to call it before it was PTSD. When troops were coming back from Vietnam, they called them fucking shell-shocked.

Dakota Meyer 31:05 And I th- I mean, I think ... That was me for a long time.

Joe Rogan 31:09 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 31:09 For sure. I mean, that was me for a long time. Like-

Joe Rogan 31:12 Did you get counseling for that? Did you like ... How did you-

Dakota Meyer 31:15 I went to Mexico.

Joe Rogan 31:18 What was in Mexico?

Dakota Meyer 31:19 Um, I went down and I did ibogaine.

Joe Rogan 31:22 Oh.

Dakota Meyer 31:24 Um-

Joe Rogan 31:25 Did we talk about that the first time you were on the podcast?

Dakota Meyer 31:27 No, I think I did it afterwards.

Joe Rogan 31:28 Oh, really? Interesting.

Dakota Meyer 31:30 Um, but yeah, no, I went to-

Joe Rogan 31:32 How was that?

Dakota Meyer 31:34 Uh, it gave me my life back. I mean, it gave me my life back. Like, uh, I went down and, um ... I had just got to the end. And I talked about it in this book. Um, and I was going through my divorce. Um, I ... Oh, gosh, I did- ... You talk about not knowing what was next, I mean, literally, you know, just ... Gosh, I was just a n- I was melting down, just melting down from the inside. And, um ... And finally, like, one of my friends looked at me and he's like, he's like, "Hey, I just went and did this. Um, this is the date you're going. You need to go do this." And it was at that point, like ... You know, I grew up in, in Kentucky, and I, I, I mean, I grew up with weed is bad, right? I mean, all of this, right? You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 32:21 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 32:21 And, and for me, it was just such a, it was just such a ... To think that I was gonna go do psychedelics-

Joe Rogan 32:28 Right.

Dakota Meyer 32:28 ... it was just, like, such a m- Like, it was like a moral thing for me, right?

Joe Rogan 32:32 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 32:32 I mean, it was a moral, moral, uh-

Joe Rogan 32:34 Dilemma.

Dakota Meyer 32:35 ... dilemma.

Joe Rogan 32:36 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 32:37 And, um ... But I di- I mean, it was all I had left, and I knew that for my daughters I needed to do something.

Joe Rogan 32:42 Can you describe the experience?

Dakota Meyer 32:44 Yeah. I mean, I went down and, uh-

Joe Rogan 32:46 Wait, where'd you go?

Dakota Meyer 32:47 To ... Well, I flew into San Diego and then we just went across the border somewhere. I don't, like-

Joe Rogan 32:52 Oh, it's w- like close to Tijuana?

Dakota Meyer 32:54 A little south of that. Like, start with an E.

Joe Rogan 32:56 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 32:57 So, um, yeah, I don't know where it was. But went down there and, uh, took the, took the ibogaine at like 8:00 PM at night on Friday, and, uh, it kicked in, like, an hour later. And it was, it was like I was walking through this, this, um, like gloomy city. I was kinda, like, walking through a gloomy city, like it, like overcast. Does that make sense?

Joe Rogan 33:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 33:21 And I just remember, like, I went into this one room, and it was like ... I mean, I could see the street signs and everything. Like, I went in this one room, and I walked out on this stage, and there was, like, all these people in this room. And it was like they were going by, like, um ... You know, like those old slide, like slideshows, like, they're just r- spinning by? And I was seeing these people, and I was in there, and I just felt disi- like disap- like everybody was disappointed in me.

Joe Rogan 33:45 Hm.

Dakota Meyer 33:45 And, um, like I see all these people, and I just felt, like, all this disappointment. I was, like, running around, like, going up to people like, "Why? Like, w- what did I do? What can I fix? Like, how can I fix this? Like, what did I do wrong? Like, I'm sorry." And it was like all these people that, that I ... just people in my life, like I could see their faces, people in my life that I've tried so hard to be good enough for, and, uh, you just, y- you h- you hit it ... You ain't gonna be good enough for them, right? And, uh, and so I left that room. I was in there for a few hours, and, um, I left that room, and then I was walking through the town. And I would go up, and I would look at these, like, the, uh ... like these fuel gauges. I could see these fuel gauges, and they were like ... It had E for empty, uh, or, yeah, E for empty, and then F would ... meant, like, finished. And everything was, like, this far from finished. It was like I never finish anything.

Joe Rogan 34:42 Hm.

Dakota Meyer 34:43 And then, um, I seen this, like, beautiful ball of light, and I went to it. And in it was, like, my daughters playing, and I just felt, like, so much peace. Um, and then there was, like, obviously, like, different moments of ... I'll never forget this one moment in it. I, uh, I just, like, I almost, like ... Oh, 'cause I mean, you could see. I mean, I could, like, open my eyes. I mean, it was really blurry, but, like, I was, I was present, right? And, um, I was gonna just ask the doctor. Like, I was like, "I just don't wanna be here anymore." Like, "I can't do this." And, uh, I obvi- I knew that he was gonna say, "There's (laughs) nothing I can do about it." So I stayed there, and I just remember it breaking my ego. I remember focusing on my ego. I remember, like, fighting it, just like, just realizing that, that all this was ego, that my ego just ... The best way to describe it was, like, it didn't make me like ... You know, like, when you drink, like, you kinda feel numb? This was like my soul. Like, it was like it was just, it just like ... It was like my soul had gone through a workout, like, like, a, a workout on it, right? Like, just an ass-kicking workout. And, uh, it just broke my ego, you know? Like, it just, it just showed me so much about my ego, and there was just ... I just remember, like, at one point I was like, "I don't care. I don't even care anymore. I don't care what people think. I don't care. Like, I'm, I'm not gonna live by what people think." I just, I remember just sa- like, just all I could just say back and forth was, "I don't care. I don't care. I don't care what happens to me."

Joe Rogan 36:15 This is while you were tripping?

Dakota Meyer 36:17 While I was tripping. And so I was on it until ... from 8:00 PM on Friday night, and I came out of it at, like, 2:00 or 3:00 PM on Saturday.

Joe Rogan 36:24 Wow.

Dakota Meyer 36:25 And, uh, I came out of it, and I was mad. The guy that sent me there, I was so mad at. I was like, "This-"

Joe Rogan 36:31 Why?

Dakota Meyer 36:31 "I didn't need this." I was like, "I didn't need to feel like this." I felt terrible. Um, like, I-

Joe Rogan 36:37 Why were you, why were you mad at him?

Dakota Meyer 36:38 Well, 'cause I was like, "Y- y- you know, you s- you told me this is gonna help me." And I didn't need to see all my problems, right? It kinda, like, just brought my problems out and made me look at them.... and realized that, that I need to do something to change these. And-

Joe Rogan 36:52 So, why would you be mad at him then?

Dakota Meyer 36:54 Well, I was mad because he sent me there, and I thought he was going to help me. And I felt like it made me worse, right? (laughs) Um-

Joe Rogan 36:59 In that moment, you did?

Dakota Meyer 37:00 In that moment. And then, I did DMT the next day, 5-MeO. And it was at, that was what brought it all together. Um, the next day, we did 5-MeO, and I was so like, I was down, I was depressed. I was like upset, because it just like, I just, I was like, "Gosh, I just didn't need to see all this."

Joe Rogan 37:22 But why, but I don't understand. If you think it's beneficial, why were you upset at him-

Dakota Meyer 37:26 Well-

Joe Rogan 37:26 ... that you, you, why, and why'd you think you didn't need to see it?

Dakota Meyer 37:29 Well, what I'm saying is, is all of it together was beneficial. The ib-

Joe Rogan 37:33 The Ibogaine by itself wasn't?

Dakota Meyer 37:35 The Ibogai- Well, I mean, no, I think it opened Pandora's box for me, right? Like-

Joe Rogan 37:39 'Cause it made you think about things, and you-

Dakota Meyer 37:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:41 ... uh, but isn't it better maybe to think about them than to suppress 'em in the back of your head?

Dakota Meyer 37:45 Um, I mean, the experience, like, it just, it was like an ass-kicking, right?

Joe Rogan 37:49 Right.

Dakota Meyer 37:49 Like, it was just like, it was like the ultimate ass-kicking. It was miserable, like I was throwing up. I, I'm saying it's good for you. I'm saying like, but when I put it together with the DMT, and I did the DMT the next day, it brought it all back together, right? Like, you know, after I did the DMT, I'll never forget, like, we, I, I took, you know, I took the hit of it, and I laid back, and it was like I was gone through this tube. It was just like this tube, like almost like a water slide, right?

Joe Rogan 38:17 Right. Yeah. I've done it.

Dakota Meyer 38:19 And, um-

Joe Rogan 38:20 You feel like you're in the center of the universe or something, like you-

Dakota Meyer 38:22 It was beautiful.

Joe Rogan 38:23 ... don't exist anymore.

Dakota Meyer 38:24 It was beautiful. It was so beautiful. Like the white that I seen was like, there's no white, there's no w- the color here that could ever do like same.

Joe Rogan 38:34 Right.

Dakota Meyer 38:34 Um, it was so beautiful. I felt so much love, like it was like pure love. It was like how I felt like whenever I met my kids, you know, like whenever I was there when, when Hadley was born, when I met Sailor. Like, the love that I have for them, it was like that, but t-times a million, you could just feel it, and it was like so good. Like it, it just showed that like there is good. And for me, I put it together, and it's like, it's inside me. Good's inside of us. Feeling good, like, like those good things are inside of us, and it's just our ego that keeps us from feeling and being happy.

Joe Rogan 39:16 So, the Ibogaine gave you this understanding of all the conflicts that you've caused and whether it's, uh, interrelational with other people, or even with yourself by not finishing things and not following through on things.

Dakota Meyer 39:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Do you think that it was tr- trying to show you that some part of your problems lie in the fact that maybe you don't respect your own efforts? Like when you, when you look at-

Dakota Meyer 39:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:44 ... that you haven't finished things, do you think like, it was showing you that you don't have a respect for yourself 'cause you, you don't respect the, the effort that you put into things?

Dakota Meyer 39:54 Yeah, I think it showed me that like ... Yeah, I mean, I think it, I think, I think it showed me that like, yeah, 'cause I don't, right? Like, I don't, I look at, I look at everything as, well, if you do good, well, that was what you were supposed to do.

Joe Rogan 40:12 Right.

Dakota Meyer 40:12 And if you, like the only thing that I've, and I still, I still struggle with it, right? Like, the only thing that I feel is like, whenever I mess up, you know, like, like, like you, if, I just, I live in this mindset of, well, I can always be better, so I just, I, you know, like I stay focused on that aspect of it, of like, what did I do wrong?

Joe Rogan 40:32 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 40:33 And it's a hard thing, it's a hard balance, um, because I always want to be better. I always want to be, I always want to be better. I want to give you my best. And, you know, like, I, so I think that that was what it kind of showed me was that, hey, you know, like, like it's, it's okay to, you know, you can do your best, and as long as you do your best, that's what matters, and as long as you're intense good, that's what matters. Like, you're gonna mess up. Like, that's normal. And I think it was like, it, it gave me like, I don't know, maybe a little grace on myself-

Joe Rogan 41:07 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 41:08 ... of, you know, 'cause I just have this, I have this problem of I, I just always want to do more. You know, I always want to do more for people, you know, and it's just, it's like, I don't know, like it's, it, it plays against me a lot.

Joe Rogan 41:25 You always want to do more for people.

Dakota Meyer 41:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:26 Do you always want to do more for yourself as well? Do you always want to do more in terms of like the effort that you put towards things? Like, when you say you always want to do more, is it just with doing things for people?

Dakota Meyer 41:38 I mean, I, yeah, I mean, like, I, I don't, I mean, like, the more I can help myself, the more I can help people. You know, like, I, I, like if I could do anything in the world, like, I would take all the pain off of everybody else, right? Like, I don't, I don't want anybody to hurt, you know? And, and I just, I think that everything that I do is about trying to help people, you know? Like-

Joe Rogan 42:05 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 42:05 ... that's kind of what, what I, I find fulfilling, is seeing people happy.

Joe Rogan 42:12 Well, that's a beautiful thing, man. I mean, that's a, a great way to think about life too. If, if you enjoy making people happy and you know how to make people happy, you know there's things you can do that can enhance-

Dakota Meyer 42:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:23 ... people's happiness. You know, we were talking before this, uh, podcast about, uh, a guy that you, uh, pulled out of a truck that went into a pond, and it, it is, as a fireman, a crazy experience that you had, um, where you, just tell the story 'cause it's, it's really nu- it's fucking nuts.

Dakota Meyer 42:43 Yeah, there was, uh, um, and obviously, I can't get into many details of it, but there was, w- we had a call. Um, we have a lot of gr- I, I get to serve with a lot of great people. And, um, a call, a, a truck had like-... gone underwater inside of a pond, rolled up and, uh, well, we were, we were initially told that it was stuck on the side of the pond. And, um, had no clue that it was going to be underwater. Um, got there and couldn't see the truck. And so I had gone over the fence and another guy come, come with me and, um, started going to this pond, because I see two people standing on the side of it. And I thought they were already out or the, the guy drove off, whatever, who knows. And so get there and I could see this little, like, white square out in the middle of the pond. And this woman goes, um, (smacks lips) she said, "He's still in there." And I said, "In the truck?" And she said, "Yes, he's in the truck." And, um, I-

Joe Rogan 43:44 And it was her son?

Dakota Meyer 43:46 Her son or so- so how... Someway they were related. Some, I don't ... Uh, her son or somebody was re- uh, at, at some point they were related. She said, "He's still in there." They had watched this all happen. She's, they were the ones that called. And, um, so I started taking ... I was in full bunker gear, you know, like our, our turnout gear. And so I took, took the coat, took my coat off, took my pants off and, uh, got ... Other guys are showing up on scene the same time. Um, and so I just, w- j- we jumped in the, John jumped in the water, swam out to the truck, and then as soon as I got out there, you know, the truck was probably three and a half, four feet deep. Uh, the top of it was. And so I, um, I swam down to try to see if the windows were unlock- or, were open. I thought the window might be open and it wasn't. And so then I think to myself, "Well, where's my window punch at?" Well, it's in my bunker gear that's on the side of the, of the, of the pond. And I was so mad at myself. Well, at this time, my, my buddy Eric and my buddy Jonathan, um, jumped in right behind, started swimming out there, no questions asked. I mean, just 'cause they knew it was just to get down. It was time to, time to do it. And, um, they get out there and then this, um, one of, one of the police officers threw me her baton. So got it and then I couldn't bust the window open with it. I couldn't get enough leverage underwater. And my buddy, Eric, I mean, this dude is like, I mean, he's jacked, right? So (laughs) he's just, he's just beating this window and beats it, beats it open. And he beat the back window open. I told him to beat the back window open first, it was a four-door truck, because I was afraid the guy was still, um, conscious and I, I was afraid that he was going to reach out and grab me-

Joe Rogan 45:25 Grab you, yeah.

Dakota Meyer 45:25 ... and drown me. So I was like-

Joe Rogan 45:26 Right.

Dakota Meyer 45:27 ... if I can come in through the back window, he can't just immed- um, you know, immediately grab me.

Joe Rogan 45:30 Right.

Dakota Meyer 45:31 But I couldn't get in through the back window because it was like, the truck was full of stuff. Like, it ... the whole backseat was full of stuff. So then Eric beats the front window out and so he did, so then he, um, I dove down, dove in the truck and, um, the guy was in there and he was, he was u- up like, he was f- floating. And you couldn't see 'cause it was in a pond, um, but he was up against kind of like the roof of the truck i- inside and, um, I, I tried to, I tried to reach in and grab him or reach and grabbed him and I just kind of felt where his, uh, up at top and I grabbed his collar of his shirt, because I knew I could just get him out of the window, which it's pretty tight to fit a person through a window, right?

Joe Rogan 46:10 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 46:11 So I pulled him out and whenever I did, um, I kind of like sank because, like, I had him with me and I just knew I couldn't let him go because if I did let him go, I'd never find him-

Joe Rogan 46:23 Right.

Dakota Meyer 46:23 ... in the pond. And, um, yeah, I thought I was going to drown.

Joe Rogan 46:27 How deep was the pond?

Dakota Meyer 46:28 Probably 10 feet deep, eight, eight, 10 feet deep. Um, but it's mud at the bottom.

Joe Rogan 46:34 Oh.

Dakota Meyer 46:34 So I tried to push off the bottom with my feet.

Joe Rogan 46:37 (inhales deeply)

Dakota Meyer 46:37 And, um, my buddy ha- he ended up grabbing me, he got me by my belt. I guess I had kind of been m- like, w- w- went over a little bit, he g- grabbed me by my belt and pulled me up. We get to the top and, um, the, the guys obviously, h- he drowned and so we swam him back, um, myself, Eric and, and, uh, and Jonathan swam him back to the shore, got him up on shore and then, you know, everybody kicked in and started doing CPR. He was breathing on his own by the time the helicopter landed and, you know, we had, we had Tiffany there who was just an incredible ... You know, just the, the EMS people were just incredible.

Joe Rogan 47:10 How do you get the water out of someone's lungs when they do that?

Dakota Meyer 47:12 Well, you start doing suction, right? So you'll ... They, um, they put an eye gel in, um, to establish an airway, but, you know, getting CPR going, uh, they put a airway in and they start doing suction. I don't know how much fluid she brought off, but, you know, they, they brought a ton of fluid off of him just doing continuous suction. Um ...

Joe Rogan 47:29 So what would you do if you didn't have equipment there?

Dakota Meyer 47:32 I mean, you just, I mean, compressions, right? Compressions and trying to, you know, bag, trying to get as much water as you can off. You know, they, they might, they might aspirate, uh, you know, trying to keep that aspiration out of the lungs, right?

Joe Rogan 47:43 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 47:43 So, um, and it's ... And me, you know, the next day, myself, Eric and, and Jonathan, we actually had to go to the doctor because we, we all have aspiration pneumonia right now, um, from it, from the-

Joe Rogan 47:54 This just happened?

Dakota Meyer 47:55 Yeah, I've, uh, yeah, I got, I got aspiration pneumonia, right. It's what my cough is from.

Joe Rogan 47:59 When did this happen? How long ago?

Dakota Meyer 48:00 Tuesday.

Joe Rogan 48:01 Wow.

Dakota Meyer 48:02 Yeah. But, but, you know, look, the guy, um, we, you know, we get updates every day because we all, I mean, you know, we all, we all want this guy to make it. Um, and he, I mean, he's off life support and he's talking.

Joe Rogan 48:15 Wow.

Dakota Meyer 48:16 Um, just incredible.

Joe Rogan 48:16 How long was he in there for?

Dakota Meyer 48:18 I, I know that, uh, we were on scene from the time that we got there until the time we pulled him out, I mean, it's probably 10, 12 minutes.

Joe Rogan 48:26 Exhales ] Whew.

Dakota Meyer 48:27 But you, you know what you don't know is you don't know how long was he-

Joe Rogan 48:29 In there before that.

Dakota Meyer 48:30 ... the air was in the truck.

Joe Rogan 48:31 Right.

Dakota Meyer 48:31 Or how long there was, you know, something-

Joe Rogan 48:33 Right.

Dakota Meyer 48:33 ... you know, breathing room in the truck, you know?

Joe Rogan 48:36 Right. Fuck.

Dakota Meyer 48:37 Um, but it's like, look, I'm surrounded by giants. I'm a man surrounded by giants. I'm a ... Like, when people talk about like, "Oh, the world's going to shit." Or, you know, "There's, there's just bad people." I just... You just come hang out with me for a day. You should see the people I'm surrounded by. Just like incredible people who would give their shirt off their back, who are just-Awesome dads, awesome moms, just awesome people. You know, just really, really good people who, who do good things. And I'm surrounded by them. I'm so fortunate to, to be surrounded by such good people.

Joe Rogan 49:13 And is this people that you know from the fire department?

Dakota Meyer 49:16 Fire department, I mean, just in every day, right? I mean, you know, look. I mean, I get to... Tim Kennedy, right? I mean, just, you talk about a guy that loves... You know, you talk about a guy that just wants to help people. I mean, that dude's always trying to make something better.

Joe Rogan 49:30 Yeah, he's an amazing person.

Dakota Meyer 49:31 Um, but yeah, people in the fire department, people just at my gym, right? You know, people coming to the gym, and, and coming in there at 5:00 AM every morning and working out, and just trying to be better.

Joe Rogan 49:43 There are... Those people are real. There are-

Dakota Meyer 49:45 They're real.

Joe Rogan 49:45 ... people like that.

Dakota Meyer 49:45 They're everywhere.

Joe Rogan 49:46 Yeah, they are. There's just not that many of them in terms of, like, comparison to the regular people.

Dakota Meyer 49:51 But you have to be one of them for them-

Joe Rogan 49:52 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 49:52 ... to come hang around you.

Joe Rogan 49:53 Yes.

Dakota Meyer 49:54 You have to... Like, good people-

Joe Rogan 49:55 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 49:55 Good people don't hang out with bad people.

Joe Rogan 49:57 That's true. Yeah, that's true. And also, one of the ways that a person becomes a good person is being around a person like that, and then realizing that, like, wow, the effect that person has on me in terms of, like, the inspiration they provide me, in terms of, like, the way you can see a, a person behave and how much admiration you have for them. And you, like, you change your behavior patterns to be more like them. You, people... If your friends are all gross, like, you're probably gonna be gross too, you know? (laughs)

Dakota Meyer 50:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:29 If your friends are all stealing money and just lying and being assholes all the time, it's like, man, like, you don't have a lot to shoot for. You know?

Dakota Meyer 50:36 No- nobody's ever-

Joe Rogan 50:37 Not a high bar.

Dakota Meyer 50:38 Nobody's ever... It's kind of like in jujitsu, right? Like, you're, you're never gonna be... You're, like... If you just roll with the same group, like, you're never gonna be better than... Like, you might... You're, you're... You can only go so far, advance so far, right?

Joe Rogan 50:49 Right.

Dakota Meyer 50:50 It's the same thing in your environment, right?

Joe Rogan 50:51 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 50:51 Like if, if you... You, you're only gonna be as good as the best p- That, that's the most you could be is the best-

Joe Rogan 50:58 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 50:58 ... person around you.

Joe Rogan 51:01 Uh, I wonder. I mean, it depends on what you're reading and what you're trying to do. I mean, think, uh, people are pretty flexible. You could do a lot. But it's very important, uh, to at least make the best attempt to be around powerful people. And if you can do that-

Dakota Meyer 51:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:18 And, and the best way to do that is, yeah, what you're talking about. Be around people at the gym, be around people that either do jujitsu or something else, uh, difficult, uh, be around firefighters, be around people that are trying to help people all the time. Uh, EMTs, people that are first provi-, um, you know, first responders that are working to try to help people on a daily basis.

Dakota Meyer 51:39 Or people who are good parents-

Joe Rogan 51:41 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 51:41 ... or people who are good husbands, and people who are good wives, right? Like-

Joe Rogan 51:43 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 51:44 ... all of it, all of it matters. I mean, I... And that's how I judge. Like, I, I, I don't see how I judge people, but I, I evaluate people.

Joe Rogan 51:51 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 51:51 The people who are around me, the people who I invest my time is. Like, if you've got money in stocks, do you just say, "I don't care what it is, I don't care how it's doing, I don't care what it's gonna do," right? No, you don't, 'cause it's your money. You'll, you'll lose there, right? And I, I feel the same ways is with my time. My time is equity. Uh, you know, you have emotional equity, you have time that's equity. And I'm gonna invest it in people that, that are making me better, that are helping me in, in some way. Not helping me, but, like-

Joe Rogan 52:19 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 52:19 ... making me a better person.

Joe Rogan 52:20 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 52:20 And, um, I just... It's a simple formula. For me is, like, I... If you're not somebody that if I die today that I want my daughters to, to, to be around-

Joe Rogan 52:32 Right.

Dakota Meyer 52:33 ... then I don't need you around me.

Joe Rogan 52:34 That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. And if you can do that, you can eliminate a lot of problems in your life with people that are just... It's un- it's unfortunate, uh, 'cause I do want people to do better in life, but there's certain people that you just gotta cut them loose. They, they just, wherever they are at this moment, they're, they're too far away from where you need them to be. And if you hang out with them, they're just gonna keep creating problems then... One of the ones that drives me the most nuts is people that create, create constant problems and then they get, like, this sort of, um, emotional charge out of resolving the problems. So, they create a problem, and then they resolve the problem, and then they get, they get addicted to that sort of seesaw thing where they're always, like, in a squabble with someone, and then they're, you know, "I'm sorry," and everybody makes up. "We're good now?" "Yeah, we're good now." And then, you know, they'll find another one to be involved in.

Dakota Meyer 53:29 It's chaos.

Joe Rogan 53:30 Yeah, it's-

Dakota Meyer 53:30 They're just constant chaos, right?

Joe Rogan 53:33 It's people that are just... They're... Not only are they not at peace, but they're nowhere even near the road, you know. You're not on the road to peace. You're on the road to occasional pe- reconciliation with people. And a lot of people get into those relationships with, with, uh, you know, boyfriends and girlfriends like that. They, they get into these things where they fight, they argue with each other, and then they make up, and they get addicted to the making up part. And then, you know-

Dakota Meyer 53:57 Don't you, but don't you think that becomes, like, normal? Right, like, like, sometimes, like, you get in that, and it just becomes, uh, uh, you know, it becomes a normal thing. Like-

Joe Rogan 54:05 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 54:05 So this, this becomes the norm. It's like, in a relationship, you know, nobody starts off by beating each other, right? Like, it starts off by saying, you know, um, you know, uh, like, "Fuck you," right? And then it... Well, that becomes normal, right?

Joe Rogan 54:20 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 54:20 And then every time the bar is pushed a little bit further-

Joe Rogan 54:23 Right.

Dakota Meyer 54:23 ... a little bit further. And then the next thing you know, it's just, it's toxic, and it's just bad, and it's like, you know... We just lose respect for each other, and it happens. I mean, it's, it can happen so fast if you don't pay attention.

Joe Rogan 54:34 It can. And that, that... I mean, for a guy, that's horrible. But for a woman, it's worse-

Dakota Meyer 54:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:42 ... because a woman has to worry physically about her, her safety-

Dakota Meyer 54:45 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 54:45 ... from a guy. You know, that's... When, you know, you have daughters, as do I, and that's one of the scariest thoughts is that someone's gonna fuck your daughter up-

Dakota Meyer 54:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:56 ... beat them up, or-

Dakota Meyer 54:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:58 ... or do-

Dakota Meyer 54:58 Or-

Joe Rogan 54:58 ... something terrible to them. It's like, the fact that men are capable of that is just such a horrific-... aspect of, of life. You know, because most people aren't capable of that. Most people would never do that. But the people that would do that, they're real. They're out there, you know?

Dakota Meyer 55:17 And how do you prep them for it?

Joe Rogan 55:19 That's a good fucking question. How do you? You know, I mean, I think one way is by setting an example. The way you treat people, that's what they're going to expect from other people. You know, the way you treat your wife, the way you treat your, you know, the people that are around you, they're going to expect that. Because that's what, you know-

Dakota Meyer 55:38 If you're hanging out with shitty-

Joe Rogan 55:39 ... they're accustomed to.

Dakota Meyer 55:40 If you're hanging out with shitty people and they see you doing that-

Joe Rogan 55:42 Yes.

Dakota Meyer 55:42 ... they're going to hang out with shitty people, right?

Joe Rogan 55:44 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 55:44 And, and that's why I go back to my circle, right? My circle is, it's, it's literally everything. And, um, you know, like with my daughters, look, I'm, I'll be the longest person they'll ever date. I'll be the longest man they'll date. And how I treat them is what they're going to think is, is like, they're going to measure everybody to me.

Joe Rogan 56:08 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 56:09 And so if they start dating shitty guys down the road, I should probably look in the mirror. And my example that I set to them is, and not just, not just that I'm, you know, I'm good to my daughters and that I'm respectful to women, but that I work hard and that I-

Joe Rogan 56:26 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 56:26 ... I serve the community and that I, I continue to try to better myself and, and I accept responsibility for my actions and all these things, like they're watching everything. And that is, it's going to program them to someday, like, you know, we automatically as parents, we automatically have whatever you want to call it, like street cred with our children. And that's how they learn to handle problems and that's how they handle, you know, relationships and things like that. And it's just so important that, you know, my daughters are my accountability factor. Like I look at it and it's like, I try to treat people the way that I would want someone to treat my daughters.

Joe Rogan 57:09 Now when you talk about that ibogaine experience, about how it bothered you that, you know, you had to think about all these times we disappointed people or all the people that were upset at you, what about that was, what was so frustrating about that? Was it that you had already gotten through that and put it aside and now it's like rehashing it and just making you feel like shit? Or was it just that you were confronted with reality?

Dakota Meyer 57:33 I mean, I think-

Joe Rogan 57:34 And you didn't like it.

Dakota Meyer 57:35 ... I think it's just like, there's just some people that, I mean, you're not gonna, you're never gonna be good enough for.

Joe Rogan 57:43 Right.

Dakota Meyer 57:44 You know, and it doesn't, it's not necessarily you. I mean-

Joe Rogan 57:47 Sometimes it is. (laughs)

Dakota Meyer 57:49 Well, I mean-

Joe Rogan 57:50 Yeah, but sometimes it's just them.

Dakota Meyer 57:52 A- a- again, again, sometimes it's just them, right? And, uh, but I didn't see the people, I didn't see the people, not the people I fucked over. I didn't see them. You know, I seen like, you know, I mean, I seen people like family members that, that you're like, well, you know, why was it like this for me? Right? And, uh, you know, that was, you know, that was an aspect of, look, I just let it go. Like, you know, that's kind of what, that's, all the stuff I seen with ibogaine was kind of like, just let it go. Just let it go. Right? It wasn't, it wasn't, I didn't see the things that like, I didn't see anything about combat. I didn't see, you know, I didn't see anything like that. I just seen the things that I let control me that I couldn't control.

Joe Rogan 58:44 So was ibogaine just like, the way I've heard it described is that it's ruthlessly introspective.

Dakota Meyer 58:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:51 It's like it makes you see things that maybe you've been avoiding thinking about.

Dakota Meyer 58:55 Yeah, I mean, look, we all know, if we all sit down and we truly want to see it, we all kind of know why we are the way we are. Everything adds up, right?

Joe Rogan 59:04 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 59:04 Like, it's just like, we don't want to, we don't want to face it.

Joe Rogan 59:09 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 59:09 Um, and ibogaine makes you face it. Like you're gonna sit there and it's gonna keep you there until you've seen enough of it.

Joe Rogan 59:17 And are, are you hallucinating while you're doing this?

Dakota Meyer 59:20 I mean, I s- I mean, it is like I'm really there, but I mean, I can open my eyes and stand up if I, I mean, the world's spinning, but, you know, like...

Joe Rogan 59:31 But when you close your eyes-

Dakota Meyer 59:32 Oh yeah, I'm there.

Joe Rogan 59:32 ... it's like you're there.

Dakota Meyer 59:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:34 So it's like you're rehashing memories or like, is that what it is?

Dakota Meyer 59:38 Yeah. It's, it's real. Like, I liked it because the people that I seen, like obviously I wasn't walking through a city, but the people that I seen were real. The, the moments that I was watching myself, like how I talk to people, like there was a piece of that, right? Like were, was real moments. It was like I was sitting in a stadium watching myself from a, like a different point of view.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:00:06 Does that make sense?

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 1:00:07 And, uh, it was real. It was real. Like it wasn't like I was seeing like crazy, crazy, you know, alternate reality. It was real. It was real people. It was real situations. It was real things.

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 Now, was it a replica of what you'd experienced or was it, uh, not? So was it situations that never really occurred?

Dakota Meyer 1:00:33 Well, I mean, obviously the walking to, to, onto the stage, um, was not, you know, obviously all these people weren't in one room, but-

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 Right.

Dakota Meyer 1:00:41 ... but their faces were real. They were real people in my life. They were there. They were real people. So I think obviously there was like a balance to it, but it was like all of it made sense, if that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 1:00:50 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:00:51 Like every bit of it, like I knew what it was telling me.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 So it's like you walked onto a stage and then the audience was all filled with people that you've had conflicts with?

Dakota Meyer 1:01:00 Or just like people that I don't feel like, you know, people I feel like I've, that-

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 You let down or...

Dakota Meyer 1:01:05 ... That I, you know, that make me feel like I let them down-

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:01:08 ... when, when I don't think I, when, and, and when I look at it logically, I didn't.You know what I mean? Like, um... And there was just, you know, there was a lot of that.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 And so, you get out of that.

Dakota Meyer 1:01:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 You do DMT.

Dakota Meyer 1:01:24 Yeah, the next day.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 You put it all together because of those two experiences.

Dakota Meyer 1:01:28 Yeah. And I-

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 And then, what is life like right after that?

Dakota Meyer 1:01:31 You know, before... B- so before I went down there, I mean, I was having an anxiety attack a week.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 And what does that mean? Like, what is, what, what happens during your anxiety attacks?

Dakota Meyer 1:01:42 You know, like, I'll wake up throwing up. Like, I'd be in the floor, like, throwing up, crying. Just, just, like, can't control it.

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 And it's, uh, eh, uh, but... And when you say anxiety, like, what are you thinking?

Dakota Meyer 1:01:59 You know, I, I... Just that, how much of a failure I am.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 Really? That's what it was?

Dakota Meyer 1:02:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 A failure?

Dakota Meyer 1:02:04 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's probably... A- a- and look, I'm not gonna say those thoughts go away. You know, like, while I'm on that truck, while I was on that truck the other day, all I was telling myself was just, like, you know, I could just... I can remember it vividly, of, "You're a piece of shit. Look how... This is, this is you. Like, you, you didn't bring the window punch with you. How could you mess up so bad? Now this guy's gonna die because of you." And then I'm watching my friends swim out there and I'm just thinking to myself like, "Oh, look at you, you're an idiot. And now you've brought them in here, and now they're gonna drown and you're gonna, you're gonna get your friends killed." And then... And, you know, I mean, like, it was just, like, the whole time, I'm literally like... My brain is just talking shit to me-

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:02:44 ... of like, "Oh, yeah, you know what?" Like, "You're, you're, you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to get this guy out now, because you didn't train hard enough," right? Like, it's just, like, all these things, like, just, just, just beating it, right? Um, and I don't know why it works that way (laughs) , right? But it, it works for me-

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 When you were c-

Dakota Meyer 1:03:03 ... a lot too, though.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 When you were growing up, did you have, uh, parents that were very critical of you?

Dakota Meyer 1:03:10 Um, uh... You know, I mean, like, there, there was accountability. Everything was black and white, right? Like, everything was accountability, right? You know, my... I mean, look, my dad, my grandpa... I mean, I, I grew up with my mom until I was like 10, and then I, I went over to my dad. And, um, you know, my dad, my dad's the one that... My dad and my grandfather and my grandmother, like, they're just... They're the greatest people I've ever met. And I... If I can be half of them, I- I'll be somebody. Um, but it was just like... It was more of a... There's right and wrong. There's, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:03:44 But was there a thing back then about you not being good enough?

Dakota Meyer 1:03:49 No.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 Nothing?

Dakota Meyer 1:03:50 No.

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 Nothing?

Dakota Meyer 1:03:51 Never.

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 So, why do you have that thought in your head now, do you think? Like, why, why do you, uh-

Dakota Meyer 1:03:57 Because I couldn't save my team, you know? Like, um-

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 So, is that when it started?

Dakota Meyer 1:04:05 Yeah. Yeah. I mean... You know, and then the medal just made it worse.

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 And for people who don't know what you're talking about, we had a long conversation about this on the, the first podcast that we did together. And it's, uh, a harrowing story. I mean, it's, w- wild shit what you went through. Um, and I would just tell people to s- you know, go listen to that.

Dakota Meyer 1:04:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 So you don't have to say it again.

Dakota Meyer 1:04:33 Yeah. But that, that's where it comes from, you know? Like, you know, I, uh, I don't know. Like I... When I walked in that valley that day, like, I truly thought that I was... I thought I was good at something, right?

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:04:47 Um, I mean, I put the work in and, like, I, I thought I was good. And, and, you know, I, I really thought that... I don't know. I mean, obviously, it shows my naiveness, but I just... I never thought that there would be a situation that I couldn't get my teammates out of, right? And I thought that if anybody was ever gonna get killed, it was gonna be me. And, um... Yeah, just like... Just, just like wanting to, wanting to help them and s- and, and bring them home alive so bad, and then just getting in there and, and they're all like... They're all dead. And so it was just like... I just felt like I let 'em down, right? Like I, I just felt like I let 'em down.

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 Hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:05:32 You know? And so... And then you come back home and, and, um, then you get this Medal of Honor. So, like, it's just... It's such a, it's such a mental, you know, mental, uh, mental jujitsu with myself of, I got a medal for failing.

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 Hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:05:50 You know? And, and, and people are like, "Oh, you know, but you did so much good." Well, it's like, that's not what I set out to do when I went there. I set out to go get my teammates out. And so, like, you know, people... I think... I feel like a lot of times people wanna change the narrative because they don't like the way it feels.

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 Right.

Dakota Meyer 1:06:07 And I'll never do that because, um, because the lesson that I learned from that and the, the emotions that I get from facing the true results of that day, uh, push me to the next level to be able to go out and help people today.

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 So that, that time of your life, that was responsible for all of the w- what, what, whether you would call it self-doubt or self-judgment, like, the, that, that, the nasty voice in your head that says you're a loser.

Dakota Meyer 1:06:40 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would say that that's it, right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 But even after the Ibogaine and even after the DMT, you still have that voice because this was just last week.

Dakota Meyer 1:06:48 But it doesn't... But the difference is it doesn't control me. Like, I recognize it. Like, I-

Joe Rogan 1:06:53 You know what it is when it's happening.

Dakota Meyer 1:06:54 I know what it is when it's happening. And a lot of times, I use it to my, to my advantage, you know? Like-

Joe Rogan 1:07:03 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:07:04 Like, I use it to my advantage to, to, to give me the edge to push on.

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 1:07:10 And I think it helps me. Uh, I just think that now I can control it.

Joe Rogan 1:07:15 Mm.

Dakota Meyer 1:07:16 You know what I mean? Like-

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 So you know what it is, but you, uh... Because y- you're experiencing it, but you know what it is, so you can stop it before it takes over, instead of allowing it to just overwhelm you.

Dakota Meyer 1:07:28 Yeah. I mean, like, I... At the end of the day, like, I know, um... I mean, I, look, I know I'm not a piece of shit, right? Like, I know, I know that I, you know... I know that I'm a good person. Like, my mind doesn't control... It doesn't make... Like, when it, when it's doing this, it doesn't make me believe it, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:47 Right.

Dakota Meyer 1:07:47 And I think that, you know, ibogaine gave me that by, you know, I guess offloading this, like, kind of the stuff that doesn't matter. You know, like, whe- when you get emotional, like, you start focusing on all these things. And it's like, now I can control that to get back to the logical, like, "Okay, let's look at logic," right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:05 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 1:08:05 Like, you know what I mean? A- and just trying to keep that as a balance. But I don't ever want to lose that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:10 Right.

Dakota Meyer 1:08:10 I don't ever want to lose the... that voice, because that voice is what, what drives me to push hard, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:08:21 Like what, what I... O- you know, the... I don't ever want to lose that.

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Right. So that voice, the, s- the critical voice, is the thing you think you need to, to push yourself?

Dakota Meyer 1:08:34 For me, it's, it's what, it's what helps me. Yeah. I mean, obviously (laughs) that doesn't sound very healthy, does it? But-

Joe Rogan 1:08:41 It doesn't. I'm like, I'm wondering if there's oth-... I mean, I kind of have a similar thing going on in my head, but, um, I don't ever let it get to the point where, m- you know, I'm saying, "You're a loser. You fucked up, you fucking idiot."

Dakota Meyer 1:08:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:57 You, uh... There's... I don't have that kind of internal dialogue.

Dakota Meyer 1:09:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:00 But I do recognize that I have to, I have to manage my mind. Like, I can't allow those kind of, uh, thought patterns to spiral in my head, so I don't let them, I don't let them go anywhere.

Dakota Meyer 1:09:15 Yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:09:15 And I think we all get those, you know, those feelings.

Dakota Meyer 1:09:18 For sure. Right. I mean, I think we do, and I think that, like... You know, would, would I, would I need those if I, if I wasn't going to continue to put myself in these critical moments?

Joe Rogan 1:09:32 Mm-hmm.

Dakota Meyer 1:09:33 Probably not, right? Like, you know, I, I... It's kind of like whenever I was... I was a Marine. Um... You know, to, to do, to do what people like Tim Kennedy, to do what people like Jocko, um... You can't beat evil people unless you can be evil. You know what I mean? Like, if you can't, like... If you're not willing to... And I'm not saying either one of those are evil, so let me say that back. But for me, in my mindset, like, for me to be able to, to... For me to be able to... When you fight, whether it's in a ring, whether it's with a gun, um, it, it really comes down to who's, who's, who's willing to give it all, and who's... I mean, obviously, training comes into it, but, but, but you, I mean, if you don't get in the ring, you ain't gonna fight. If you, (laughs) if you're not willing to go get evil with somebody and take their life, you ain't gonna b-... You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 1:10:32 You're not coming home.

Dakota Meyer 1:10:33 You're not coming home.

Joe Rogan 1:10:34 Yeah.

Dakota Meyer 1:10:34 And so it's like, what, what level are you willing to get at and-

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 Well, the crazy thing to me has always been that then you, um, ask those people to just rejoin society. And, uh, I don't know how much, like, again, I don't know how much counseling they give you, or how much counseling would even... How much did they give you?

Dakota Meyer 1:10:52 I, uh... When I was in the military?

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 Yeah, when you, when you were leaving.

Dakota Meyer 1:10:56 Um, I mean, so I was fortunate because I got sent home from Afghanistan. I went to a, uh, um, to this rehab center for like eight weeks. Um, it didn't make any sense to me at the time because I think it was too close to the event. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:11:13 What is the, the rehab center? Like, uh-

Dakota Meyer 1:11:14 It was, um, cognitive CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, I think. So basically, like, where you try to re- reprogram the way you think about things, or like, "Okay, so I, you know, I feel like I was a failure," and then you, you ride it out. I mean, it's, it, it was like this therapy that... It was tough, right? And, um, I... So I went to that, but that was like... I had this amazing... And I, I talk about her in the book. Uh, Captain Katie Copp. She was a, um... She was on the combat stress team. And so w- when, when I was in Afghanistan, when there was a critical incident like this, they would fly in these, um, psychologists. Uh, and they would, like, they would o- try to get on top of it pretty quick, right? Um, to be there to help and, and all this. She did, she did so amazing. Uh, obviously, I didn't want to talk to her while I was there. Um, so she ended up sending me home from Afghanistan, um, in December, end of November, for... I got home December 5th. But she, like, worked out this arrangement to where I could... Instead of just going back to base, I came straight home because the deployment was still going on, and I went to this CBT thing. But, I mean, you're not really taught about counseling. You're not really like... You know, you're just not... It's... And the last thing you want to do is, is like feel like you're weak, right?

Joe Rogan 1:12:43 Right.

Dakota Meyer 1:12:43 Like, feel like you can't handle it, um, because it's your job, you know? It's like, it's like this thing, and like... You know, nobody... I mean, I, I wouldn't say anybody judges you, because look, we're all, we're all suffering and we want people to get help, but it's just like one of these deals like, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to be like, "Oh yeah, that bothers me."

Joe Rogan 1:13:03 Yeah. Yeah. The, the problem with, uh, strong people, right? They don't want to ask for help.

Dakota Meyer 1:13:09 And I just don't want to be an inconvenience.

Joe Rogan 1:13:10 Right. That's another thing with strong people. So, this shift that happened after you do the ibogaine and then you do the DMT, like...What's before and what's after? Like, what, what is the difference?

Dakota Meyer 1:13:24 You know, afterwards, I mean, I didn't even, I didn't have anxiety. Like, my-

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 So, no more anxiety attacks?

Dakota Meyer 1:13:30 No.

Joe Rogan 1:13:30 That's still the same way?

Dakota Meyer 1:13:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:32 How long ago was this?

Dakota Meyer 1:13:34 Two years ago.

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 Two years ago. So, two years ago, it knocks it completely out of your system?

Dakota Meyer 1:13:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:39 Wow.

Dakota Meyer 1:13:39 Yeah, I mean, like, I feel, I feel great. Like I, I'm more present.

Joe Rogan 1:13:45 Mm.

Dakota Meyer 1:13:45 Um, yeah, I mean, like, I can be, I can be who I want to be. You know what I mean? Like, I have, like... It's, it's kind of, it's awesome. Like, I get to... It's so good. It's like, so good. Like, I'm, I wake up every day, and I mean, I'm not gonna say every day is the best day of my life, but, but every day, like, there's a moment in it that I just look around, and I'm just like, "How awesome is this," right? Like, I can literally look at, at my friends and just, you know, I mean, I'll start tearing up just thinking about like how, how awesome it is that I get to be surrounded by such great people. I mean, I mean, I'm sitting here with you right now. You know what I mean? (laughs) Like, how awesome is that? You know, it's like, it's like, I don't deserve any of this, you know, but I get to do this.

Joe Rogan 1:14:31 But who does deserve it then if you don't? What does that... I mean, when people think like that, I'm always like, "Of course you deserve it."

Dakota Meyer 1:14:37 Well, I mean, I don't think anybody deserves anything. I think we're worthy of things.

Joe Rogan 1:14:41 Yes.

Dakota Meyer 1:14:42 But-

Joe Rogan 1:14:43 But it's also like, that thought, like, "You don't deserve it," means it shouldn't be happening to you.

Dakota Meyer 1:14:47 Yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:14:47 It's not, it's not