Joe Rogan Experience #1793 - Mike Baker

Joe Rogan 0:01 (drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Mike Baker-

Mike Baker 0:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:14 ... are we fucked?

Mike Baker 0:15 Mr. Rogan, we are fucked. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:17 (laughs) This is not good, right?

Mike Baker 0:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:19 This is not good.

Mike Baker 0:19 How much fun is this? Every time we get together, there's some-

Joe Rogan 0:22 It seems like it.

Mike Baker 0:23 ... bullshit happening. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:25 Yeah. Some... Every time, the world is, uh, somewhat falling apart.

Mike Baker 0:28 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's good for business. Um, I didn't mean that, actually. That s- sounds-

Joe Rogan 0:33 You shouldn't say that.

Mike Baker 0:33 ... sounds wrong. No, no.

Joe Rogan 0:34 Yeah.

Mike Baker 0:34 That's what people expect me to say, I think, but-

Joe Rogan 0:36 Right.

Mike Baker 0:36 ... um, yeah, yeah, I, I think, uh, (clears throat) nobody really expected, uh, the potential for t-thermonuclear war, uh, right after two years of a pandemic. I don't think anybody actually saw that coming.

Joe Rogan 0:48 Yeah, well there was no break-

Mike Baker 0:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:49 ... for the weary.

Mike Baker 0:50 Yeah, exactly. Every- it comes out... I did have a thought (laughs) , which was, I talked to my, I talked to my daughter the other day. She's just turned 28. And I thought, after I hung up, (sniffs) she was talking about it, and she was kind of basically saying, "What the fuck?" Right? And so I th- people that age, if you think about those, the folks in that age group, uh, she was born, you know, she was old enough to understand 9/11, right, in a sense, from a child's perspective. And then, through the Iran, or the Iraq, A- Afghanistan, you know, bullshit, that, that whole time, with the war on terrorism. Couple of recessions, right? Global pandemic. Now, you know, approaching Cold War 2.0, getting close to thermonuclear war, (laughs) not that we are. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:31 And the disastrous pull out of Afghanistan.

Mike Baker 1:33 And the, and A- af- Afghanistan, uh, inflation possibly leading too.

Joe Rogan 1:37 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:37 Recession.

Joe Rogan 1:38 $7 a gallon gas in California.

Mike Baker 1:40 Yeah. People, people of that age, not, not able to save money for a, for a house. They must just be thinking, "What the fuck?" You know?

Joe Rogan 1:46 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:47 "Wh- wh- where, where's our, you know, big build up? Where's our, like, the '50s or the, the '80s, you know?"

Joe Rogan 1:52 Well, it just seems so supremely incompetent. Everything seems like the, the, whoever the grownups are that are running the show have fucked up so many different things.

Mike Baker 2:02 (laughs) Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot to unpack there, isn't there? In that statement. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:08 This Putin, the Putin thing scares the shit out of me, though, because he's a, you know, when it comes to warlords, he's a legitimate warlord-

Mike Baker 2:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:19 ... who is in charge of, I didn't know that they had more nukes than us. I mean, I guess it's kind of a moot point, right, because everybody's got an-

Mike Baker 2:29 How many does he need? Yeah, how many do you need?

Joe Rogan 2:30 Everybody's got enough to kill everybody.

Mike Baker 2:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 2:32 How many times over?

Mike Baker 2:33 Yeah. Um-

Joe Rogan 2:33 Isn't it something crazy like ten times over?

Mike Baker 2:36 Yeah, they did the math, and, and it was, it was in double digits. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:39 It's not good.

Mike Baker 2:39 It's not, it's not good, but it's, look, if you, if you step back, everybody's, everybody's thinking, "Okay, how did this, you know, how did this fucked up situation happen?" Uh, well, it's been building, obviously, right? I mean, we have, how much news coverage do we have of, "Well, they're adding more troops to the border with Ukraine. Wonder what they're doing? Could be-

Joe Rogan 2:55 Yeah.

Mike Baker 2:55 ... military exercises." So there was a tremendous amount of speculation leading up to, "What the fuck is going on?" Which, in a sense, points to how, uh, lacking the intelligence is on, on Putin, on plans and intentions, right? And he's, he's a, that's a heavy lift, right? To, to come up with that sort of intel, because ideally, you're gonna want a human source. Um, you know, you can get SIGINT, you can get, uh, whatev- you can, you can gather intelligence from a variety of sources. But you really want human access, people who can tell you, "You know what? I had a meeting with him, and boy, I tell you what, he was pissed off." Or, "This is what he said," or, "This is how he looked." Without that, without knowing what plans and intentions are, or, you know, being, uh, able to gather intel on, say, the command staff, um, e- everybody was kind of speculating. Will he, won't he? What's he going to do? Well, stepping back, if you look at what he's done, (laughs) he's been pretty damn consistent, right, over the years. And so, I guess, you know, in a part, a lot of it was optimistic thinking. Okay, he's, he just wants the eastern part of the country. He's just gonna go in there and take that, because, you know, maybe he's, he's already got it. He's declared those two republics legit. Maybe that's all he wants. He's already taken Crimea. And so that, I think that was optimistic thinking, hoping that, you know, the guy's not going to lose his shit and go all, all the way through the country. Well, that's what he's done. And in part, because again, if you look at what he did in Chechnya, if you look at what he did helping Assad in Syria, if you look at what he did annexing Crimea, if you look at, uh, Georgia, uh, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, every step of the way, he's been following in his mind this stated desire, that he's made very public over the years, to rebuild his sphere of influence. Right? So in, in part, you could argue we kind of missed the obvious. Right? We didn't see the obvious. In fa- it's because we were all kind of hoping and mirroring our values on, onto, onto Put- Putin, who doesn't deserve to have our values mirrored onto him, because we're thinking, "Maybe, maybe he just wants a little bit. Maybe he's just trying to make a point. Maybe he just wants them to sign a charter saying they won't be part of NATO." So anyway, uh, I, I, you know, my point being twofold, I guess. We, we missed the boat on that. We missed it in part because we, we're always trying to be optimistic and trying to think, "Okay, well, maybe they think like we do. Maybe there's a rational process there." And then part of it is, uh, intel was lacking.

Joe Rogan 5:17 And when it comes to intel, when you're talking about like in-person intel, uh, how difficult is that to get on a guy like Putin?

Mike Baker 5:25 It's really tough. It's, uh, I mean, it, that, you know, look, it's a, it's a very heavy lift the higher they go up the food chain, um, because the, the smaller your pool of, of potential access points are, right? So, you know, you've got some mid-level person floating around, you know, at, uh, a government office somewhere in some target country, and, you know, maybe you've got lots of options. "Okay, who do they socialize with?" Right? "Who can I get access to? Who, who might, you know, be next to them, you know? Do they have a driver? Can I recruit the driver?" Just things like that.

Joe Rogan 5:54 Right.

Mike Baker 5:54 Right? And sometimes it's very simple. But, uh, Putin's had a, uh, increasingly small circle.... of, of close advisors and the people that he, he counts on and trusts. And part of that may be, you know, the fact that that was accelerated through the two-year pandemic, where he decidedly was shutting himself off, uh, because he was, he was, you know, paranoid like a lot of people were about COVID.

Joe Rogan 6:17 Do you remember when there was a, a guy who suicide drove into Putin's car and Putin wasn't in it?

Mike Baker 6:25 Yeah, that, when was that? That was, um-

Joe Rogan 6:26 A few years back.

Mike Baker 6:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:28 Some guy, there was oncoming traffic-

Mike Baker 6:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:31 ... and he timed it right when, uh, there must have been someone communicating with him, letting him know where Putin's car is, but Putin wasn't even in it.

Mike Baker 6:39 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:39 And turned right into oncoming traffic and used his car as a weapon and killed the both of them.

Mike Baker 6:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:45 I think, I think killed the both of them.

Mike Baker 6:47 Um, yeah, I'll get, we'll get you to look up when that, when that was.

Joe Rogan 6:50 You've seen the, you've seen the video though, right?

Mike Baker 6:51 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:51 It's wild.

Mike Baker 6:52 It was, it was a while back, though. It was, uh-

Joe Rogan 6:54 Four or five years maybe?

Mike Baker 6:56 Yeah. Um, but he's, you know, people have been talking about, is he, is he losing his shit? Is he, you know, is he going crazy? I, I don't think he's, I don't think it's any of that, right? He's-

Joe Rogan 7:04 Well, he like gets on a table when he negotiates and talks to people. He's like 40 feet away from them.

Mike Baker 7:09 40, yeah, yeah. And so, he, but he, and, and that assessment was, was clear during the course of the pandemic. He was, he was isolating himself. He was being, you know, very, very cautious. But I mean, and so maybe that had something to do with it. But he, anyway, point being is, is it's tough to, when you've got a, a small potential well of targets you can go after when you're talking about recruiting somebody who's got access to a high priority target, that's, you know, that's, that's probably one of the heaviest lifts we've got.

Joe Rogan 7:34 How do you get, like how does someone get access to like a driver? Do you use a girl?

Mike Baker 7:40 Um-

Joe Rogan 7:41 Is that the best way to do it?

Mike Baker 7:43 No, not really. I mean, you know what? It's, because what you're looking to do, this is not to fall into like, you know-

Joe Rogan 7:49 Spy talk.

Mike Baker 7:49 ... spy talk and recruitment 101, but, um, the movies and, and beach books and everything will have you believe that, you know, the best way to, to hook somebody, to recruit somebody is, you know, blackmail or, or a honey trap or something, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:02 Right.

Mike Baker 8:03 Usually, you're, you're working on, on something else. You're not necessarily working on the ideology, but you don't want to start from a negative basis, right? Because r- in, even in normal terms, in the best of circumstances, when somebody's recruited to spy on their country, to spy on, on their organization, whatever it may be, there's, a clock starts ticking, you know, because, because things start to decay, right? The person starts to decay. It's very wearing on a human, right? And for a variety of reasons. Uh, and so you know that window is going to close at some point, and it may not end well. So you're trying to optimize that, and if you start from a negative perspective, right? If you, if you're, you've got someone cooperating with you because they're blackmailing, they're under the gun here, and, and, and they hate you and they hate, you know, what they're doing-

Joe Rogan 8:49 Right.

Mike Baker 8:49 ... that's not what you're looking for. You're looking for a more... and it sounds weird, but you're looking for more positive approach.

Joe Rogan 8:53 So how do you do that?

Mike Baker 8:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:54 Like how would you get a driver to be your buddy?

Mike Baker 8:57 Well, um, it's a, there's a recruitment process, a cycle that you go through, but, um, (laughs) I hope everyone's taking notes. Uh, but you, uh, first of all, you got to know what information you're looking for, right?

Joe Rogan 9:10 Right.

Mike Baker 9:11 And, and so that, that tasking gets set, you know, outside the, the building. If you're talking about the agency or, or really any intel service, theoretically the administration of power is setting priority tasking. So they send over this and they say, "Hey, we need this. This is a priority target for us, this information." So you look around and you go, okay, well who's got access to the information? Um, all right. You build up that world, then you figure out who might be accessible, right? Because maybe you, you're interested in, in, you know, uh, a target here, but he never leaves the country. You know, it's a denied area. And, uh, so then you find out who's got access to information, who might be accessible. Why might they be minded to talk to you? Can you create a scenario where you can get next to them? Uh, and then you're looking for points of leverage, right? You're really looking, and that doesn't necessarily mean you're looking to find a negative, right? You're looking for something that drives them. What makes, are their kids the most important thing to them, right? Do they, do they have a kid who, you know, needs medical attention? Um, do they have a kid who they desperately want to send away to college but they don't have the money, you know? So you're looking for something like that, that may... Again, it sounds strange, but you're talking about recruiting somebody for espionage, but it, it's a positive rather than a negative. And that creates then a longer shelf life in a sense for that asset, if that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 10:29 It does make sense, but it would, I would imagine that when you're dealing with someone like say Kim Jong-un or Putin or, you know, some dictator, like they, they have to be prepared for things like this, right? So they probably are very cautious on who gets into their inner circle.

Mike Baker 10:49 Yeah, and that's, and that's a counterintelligence issue, right? So every, you know, every government out there, um, you know, they're worried about that, that very thing, right? And so... I mean, look, and Putin, he was a KGB officer for 15 years, right?

Joe Rogan 11:05 Yeah.

Mike Baker 11:06 Now, interestingly, going back to Putin, he, he served in, uh, East Germany, I think for about half a dozen years. Uh, never really had any exposure to the West. So that's also something, when you're, when you're talking about trying to assess his mindset, understand where he's coming from, part of it is, look, if he had, if, if he had been exposed to the West in a much bigger way, maybe he served in New York, you know, or he served wherever, you know, London, someplace where he had more exposure. But you look at that guy and you go, he doesn't really understand how we think, right? And so that's an important thing. You got to tick that box and put that in there when you're doing an assessment of his personality and trying to... Because that's part of understanding why he's doing what he's doing.

Joe Rogan 11:48 You don't think he understands how we think?

Mike Baker 11:50 Um...

Joe Rogan 11:51 In what way do you mean?

Mike Baker 11:52 Well, fundamentally. I mean if you, look, if you live in a, in an environment, right-... if you, you know, if you go to China, you live in, you know, wherever, you know, Shenzhen or, or Shanghai, or Beijing, and you're there for a few years, you're gonna understand the culture, the mindset much better than, you know, somebody who's never lived there and is, you know, just, you know, sitting in Washington in a think-tank-

Joe Rogan 12:13 Right.

Mike Baker 12:13 ... talking about what the Chinese regime may do next. So, it's that immersion, it's that exposure, it's dealing with those people, um, it's the contact that you have. Um, look, we, I'm, you know, I'm old enough that I remember we, um, (clears throat) when the, when the Wall started to fall, uh, when, when the Soviet Union was collapsing, from our perspective, right, as a, as a, as a government, as an intel service, right? We saw that as an opportunity. There's chaos there, right? And what did you have? You had intel officers like Putin, right, KGB, GRU officers who saw their world collapsing around them, because at the time, before the, the, the, the Soviet Union collapsed, they were living the good life, right? They were the elite in a sense, right? They were the, they were pampered. Their kids were gonna get the best education. They were set for life. Their kids were set for life. All of a sudden, the Soviet Union starts going to shit, right? And you could see it. And, you know, so what did we do? Well, we were out there busy, right? Working over whatever targets we might have access to, trying to see if maybe they think, you know, maybe there's another option here. Maybe there's an alternative. Maybe I can, uh, you know, save myself and my family, you know, perhaps put aside some money (laughs) by working for the other side, and that's a natural thing to do, right? Every service is gonna do that if there's chaos on the other side. So, I remember, you could see the confusion and the humiliation, right? And the fear in some of these guys as this was happening. And so Putin went through that same process. Again, it's one of those things that you do, you, you put all that together to try to create this profile of this, of this ind- individual, right? 'Cause I, I'm not buying the talk when, you know, people get on TV and go, "Oh, he's, he's going crazy. He's losing his mind. He's a..." Uh, uh, uh, I'm not buying that. There's a reason why he's, he's, he's dr- driving the way he is. And, and again, he's being somewhat consistent. He's never given a shit about civilian casualties, right? Never bothered him before. I mean, that, that, you know, that situation in Chechnya when they went in there, right? And I mean, that was, that was, you know, you have to argue there was, uh, uh, the other side was, you know, was, was different as well. Some of the Chechen separatists were... and some of the shit that they were pulling. Um, but at the same time, he didn't care whether he was killing civilians or, you know, separatists and, you know, uh, members of their mil- uh, militia, military. So, I, I don't know. I think it's, it's one of those things where I think with, with Putin, we've got to, uh, we gotta be really pragmatic here. We gotta understand. I don't think he's, uh, he's not crazy. He's not gonna say, "Okay, I'm in a corner. I'm gonna, I'm gonna push the button and fire off a couple of tactical nukes." Right? I think what he's gotten to the point is, is, you know, "You guys have disrespected me." This is how he thinks, right? "You've disrespected me. Fuck you all. I told you I want my sphere of in- my sphere of influence and I don't care whether I have to break it. Um, I'm gonna have it."

Joe Rogan 15:00 When you say sphere of influence, do you mean he wants to reclaim what is the former Soviet Union?

Mike Baker 15:07 Yeah, he said that. He said, he said publicly in the past, he called, uh, the collapse of the Soviet Union, "The greatest tragedy of the 20th century." That's, and, and he's, he's, he's serious about that. He means that, right?

Joe Rogan 15:18 Right.

Mike Baker 15:19 And, and so he's not, he's not fucking around. Um, and, and again, uh, uh, if we look at it, he's being consistent, right? He's being consistent over the years. He's, he's a, you know, he's a, he, he, he's a dictator. He's a despot. He's looking increasingly more like, you know, he's isolating himself, which, you know, that's, that's a danger, uh, uh, in a sense to, uh, all those people around him, right? He's already cut loose some of his inner circle just over the past couple of weeks, right?

Joe Rogan 15:50 Has he?

Mike Baker 15:51 Yeah, he's gotten rid of his, his, uh, well, he put under house arrest a couple of his FSB, uh, uh, senior command. Uh-

Joe Rogan 15:58 Why, why did he do that?

Mike Baker 15:58 ... the domestic service, because he, uh, because the intel was so bad. (laughs) 'Cause going in-

Joe Rogan 16:03 Oh, because of Ukraine?

Mike Baker 16:04 Yeah. Because of Ukraine, yeah, sorry.

Joe Rogan 16:05 Going in.

Mike Baker 16:05 Yeah. Because of Ukraine. So, they went in and the assumption wasn't... and now, again, this is where our intel is lacking. Was he given bad intel or was he given intel and he just chose to ignore it? But it appears as if what he believed and what the top military commanders, some of whom have also been let go, um, or possibly reassigned, I don't think that's a good thing in, in Russia. Uh, is, um, that they were gonna, they were gonna get in there maybe within 48 hours, they were gonna have control of Kiev. They would be welcomed by the population in Ukraine, uh, and they would be able to establish a puppet regime, a new government. I mean, they moved the previous president that was, uh, you know, Russian-backed, they moved him from Russia to, uh, Minsk, uh, in preparation it appeared, to move him down to take over the government, which is, in a sense, batshit crazy because he was kicked out during the, (laughs) during the last revolution, right? By the people.

Joe Rogan 17:03 And that was 2014?

Mike Baker 17:04 Yeah, that was that Orange Revolution that they had. Um-

Joe Rogan 17:06 Yeah. We didn't, we were blissfully unaware of that in the West because we didn't think it affected us.

Mike Baker 17:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:11 I mean, you ask the average American citizen about the Ukraine revolution in 2014, like what, what are you talking about?

Mike Baker 17:17 What are you talking about, right?

Joe Rogan 17:18 We just found out recently that a comedian is running the country, which is, uh, hilarious.

Mike Baker 17:24 (laughs) Yeah. Everything is, everything is short term here, uh, in the US and that's, and that's also, uh, uh, including with our politicians, right? And, and they want a, a, a simple story.

Joe Rogan 17:33 Uh-huh.

Mike Baker 17:34 So everything's coalesced around this, this simple narrative about, you know, the... and, and we have to be... I, I, I don't know. We have to be, we have to be very careful about certain things. The, the, their emotions are running high. Um, we hear, "Oh, Russian moral, you know, troop morale is bad." Um, you know, they, they're-

Joe Rogan 17:52 Well, we're hearing that from our media, and we know that our media is not exactly accurate.

Mike Baker 17:56 Well, they love a good story.

Joe Rogan 17:57 They, they, they don't-

Mike Baker 17:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:58 ... just love a good story.

Mike Baker 17:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:59 They love a narrative and they're willing to ignore facts-

Mike Baker 18:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:01 ... to push that narrative. That's what scares me. What scares me is, uh, I mean, I think there are objective journalists that work for the Washington Post and New York Times, and there's real solid journalists out there, but I don't necessarily know-

Mike Baker 18:14 (snorts)

Joe Rogan 18:15 ... if you're getting all the information, I think-

Mike Baker 18:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:19 I think it's safe to say-

Mike Baker 18:20 You're not sure.

Joe Rogan 18:21 ... that there's some fuckery is afoot.

Mike Baker 18:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:23 I mean, tu- The U- New York Times just now is admitting that the Hunter Biden laptop is real and, you know-

Mike Baker 18:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:31 ... we remember from the debates with Trump bringing it up to Biden and Biden saying it's bullshit and these intel- I mean, it's, it was a lie.

Mike Baker 18:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:40 A flat out lie.

Mike Baker 18:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:41 Everybody knew it was a lie. The New York Post had that story that was banned from Twitter, which was just outright crazy, that one of the oldest newspapers in the country.

Mike Baker 18:53 Yeah. And I, I don't think anybody's gonna go back and apologize to them.

Joe Rogan 18:55 No, no one's apologizing, right?

Mike Baker 18:56 But the interest- the inter- there's a dynamic here that I, I mean, uh, I love this topic in a sense. Not, not so much because of, you know, whatever the fuck Hunter was up to, but in part because now when you look at the, at the, the, the, the liberal, uh, Dems and the Progressives, it doesn't matter to them. If you read some of the, the narrative that, uh, that is out there now, the social media in the past day or so, ever since The New York Times came out with this, they're, they're just dismissive of it, right?

Joe Rogan 19:23 Yeah.

Mike Baker 19:23 And they don't care or they're, they're, they're willing to overlook it, which is the same thing they accuse the, the, the right of doing. Both, both sides. We've talked about this before.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Yeah.

Mike Baker 19:33 But both sides are just so fucked up.

Joe Rogan 19:35 Both sides are so fucking crazy.

Mike Baker 19:36 God.

Joe Rogan 19:37 They're both so crazy.

Mike Baker 19:38 Uh, it just, it, and, it's- which does leave you with a question of, well, where, where does- where do we go with that? Um, but this- the, the Russia/Ukraine situation has created an interesting dynamic in DC where you've got sort of this weird bipartisan support for, uh, you know, "Let's give 'em, let's give 'em the MiGs." You know?

Joe Rogan 19:53 Yeah. Like-

Mike Baker 19:53 "Let's, let's push back." And you think, really?

Joe Rogan 19:55 But, but, but from what I understand, there was a, an American billionaire, some guy who actually has a MiG. He's, uh, an astronaut and- see if you can find this story- and he was like, "MiGs are technologically inferior to what Russia currently has. And if we sent MiGs over there, they would just get shot down. It would be a massive moral victory for Russia."

Mike Baker 20:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:16 Is that true?

Mike Baker 20:17 It, um, it depends on the training, right? 'Cause so much of this depends on the, the capabilities of the pilots, uh, the ground crew and, and how well maintained the, the, the platforms are. But, um, and, eh- just from a technical perspective, yes, it's true.

Joe Rogan 20:31 Yeah, here's, here's this guy, "American who owns a MiG-29 isn't sure the fighter jets would help Ukraine much. A billionaire astronaut who helped train US fighter pilots loves his high-performance Soviet jet, but thinks it's no match for Russia's newer planes." First of all, that's when you know you're a baller, when you got your own-

Mike Baker 20:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:47 ... fucking fighter jet.

Mike Baker 20:48 Yeah, right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:49 A Russian fighter jet.

Mike Baker 20:50 Yeah, I'm just gonna- I'm gonna fly it to the Hamptons.

Joe Rogan 20:52 Did you ever see-

Mike Baker 20:52 'Cause I'm a billionaire.

Joe Rogan 20:53 ... Operation Odessa? Is it, it's a documentary?

Mike Baker 20:57 No, I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 20:58 It's a fucking hilarious documentary. It's about these guys that are smuggling cocaine into, uh, America and they, they buy a, uh, a s- a submarine from the former Soviet Union. And, uh, while they're buying a submarine, the guy asks them if they want nukes to go with the submarine.

Mike Baker 21:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:17 Just an aside.

Mike Baker 21:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Operation Odessa is outstanding.

Mike Baker 21:21 Yeah, no. We worked, I tell you what, it, we could get into a whole different rabbit hole there talking about the gray arms market 'cause it is a, we worked the gray arms market-

Joe Rogan 21:28 Yes.

Mike Baker 21:28 ... for a while. It is a fascinating place.

Joe Rogan 21:29 I, I can't recommend this documentary-

Mike Baker 21:32 Okay.

Joe Rogan 21:32 ... enough. It's fucking amazing.

Mike Baker 21:34 All right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:34 And it's, it's so amazing that while you're watching, you're like, "What? This is real?"

Mike Baker 21:38 That's fantastic.

Joe Rogan 21:38 It's really funny. I mean-

Mike Baker 21:40 Ah.

Joe Rogan 21:40 ... it's just, it's really good. It's also really scary 'cause it's true.

Mike Baker 21:43 Well, yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 21:44 But let's, let's-

Mike Baker 21:45 If you think about it, uh, but see, that's, that's something else. I mean, the- well, there's a lot there. Um, no, I fl- I've, I flew in a MiG, a MiG-15. Um, and which was, you know, that was built in, shit, they were built in 1954, right?

Joe Rogan 21:59 Really?

Mike Baker 21:59 Yeah. And MiGs, I mean, MiGs changed the world, right? In terms of aviation, right? We had never seen that design. We didn't think the Soviets could build that, right? When they, when it came out. Um, I know some of this shit because we, we do, uh, a whole thing on it in, in Black Files Declassified, which, uh, the second season just started last week.

Joe Rogan 22:19 That's on Discovery, right?

Mike Baker 22:20 It's on Discovery, yeah. Uh, Science Channel, Discovery+. Um, but, uh, when the MiGs showed up over the skies of, of, uh, Korea during the Korean conflict, we had no idea what the hell we were doing, right? And so it literally changed. We ha- I, we actually had some prop fighters still up in the air flying from World War II.

Joe Rogan 22:39 Propeller fighters?

Mike Baker 22:40 Yeah, yes.

Joe Rogan 22:40 In the '50s?

Mike Baker 22:41 So we were still, yes, we were still f- that's how we were bought, wh- where we were at that point. So the MiG shows up. I guess the point being is that, you know, for a long time it was, you know, and then, and, and one of the things they were able to do was produce them rapidly, right? It's basically a couple of tiny wings and a big rocket, right? And there's no, the funny thing is, there's no, uh, there's no safety protocols, right? I mean, there's no, it's not like they were concerned about their pilots. And so there's no ejection seats. In fact, when we strapped in and, and, and we're taxiing, you know, I was, uh, talking to the pilot and, and he says, "Yeah." He says, "Okay, so if, if things go sideways here and we're up there," um, "what you have to do is you have to, you have to use both hands to pull your canopy back." It's a mechanical canopy. "You have to pull it back," he says, "and, and it's, and it's tight. So you have to force this thing back. You have to undo your seat harness, you know, and, and don't get fucked up and undo your parachute, which you're sitting on." And then he's gotta get that thing over, right? He's gotta turn it over so he can tumble out.

Joe Rogan 23:39 Oh, Jesus.

Mike Baker 23:39 Right?

Joe Rogan 23:39 Oh my God.

Mike Baker 23:40 That was the safety briefing. I mean, no, it, uh, it was more than that, but it was- that's how you get out.

Joe Rogan 23:44 And hope you don't get burned alive by the jet engine or the-

Mike Baker 23:47 Yeah. Basically, yeah. Or that- Or that you can come out 'cause there's no space in there, so you're gonna be stuck anyway.

Joe Rogan 23:52 Right.

Mike Baker 23:52 No matter how, you know, how successfully he has it rolling, that thing.

Joe Rogan 23:55 And if you don't turn it upside down, you can't get out.

Mike Baker 23:56 Yeah, no. You're not gonna get out. I mean, what are you... 'Cause think about that thing, you know-

Joe Rogan 24:00 Yeah.

Mike Baker 24:00 ... how fast it moves.

Joe Rogan 24:01 Oh, geez. Christ.

Mike Baker 24:01 You're gonna be trying to climb out of that canopy. So you gotta... It was, it was one of those things where I thought to myself, I pr- you know-

Joe Rogan 24:06 (sighs)

Mike Baker 24:06 I, you know, if, if something had gone wrong, basically my insurance policy would've been, uh...

Joe Rogan 24:10 Who has-

Mike Baker 24:11 Not, not, not valid.

Joe Rogan 24:12 Who has the most advanced fighter jets today?

Mike Baker 24:18 Uh, people are gonna say, well, of course you're gonna say this, the US. I, I, I think they... You, in terms of technology, it's moving very quickly because what's, what's developing fast is material science, right? And so material science has, has been developing because the holy grail of all of this is speed, right? And speed can defeat a lot of things, including air defense systems. So, uh, you know, I would argue from everything I've seen, the US... I mean China is, you know, right there, in part because they're very good at stealing whatever we're developing.

Joe Rogan 24:51 Mm. This is-

Mike Baker 24:52 I, I had to get that in. Uh, but, uh, in terms of development of, of new materials sci-... And th- that's going to allow for the breakthrough eventually of... Not, probably not in our lifetime, but of, of manned hypersonic flight, which is gonna be insane. It's gonna be crazy.

Joe Rogan 25:05 How does China steal, um, technology like that? Do they find someone who's working on the technology and bribe them?

Mike Baker 25:13 Yes. Um, they go through a variety of ways. So one way that seems very, uh, unobtrusive and, and, uh, and, and logical is they have people out attending all the various academic, uh, events, um, conferences, and they... And so they do that. They'll hoover up whatever they can in that regard. That's very low-key, right? That... And that's always done, and oftentimes it's done in cooperation with US academic institutions, right? They love that cooperation. They also love the money that comes into their institutions here in the US-

Joe Rogan 25:42 Right.

Mike Baker 25:42 ... uh, from China. Um, one way they do it is they, is they put students here, right? And, and, you know, people are gonna say, "Oh my God, that sounds xenophobic," or whatever. No. But a portion of s- of students (laughs) you know, come to the States are cooperative assets or working on behalf of... Because sometimes, you know, that's just what they're gonna have to do-

Joe Rogan 26:00 Well, if they wanna go back-

Mike Baker 26:01 ... if they, the PLA.

Joe Rogan 26:02 ... to China, right?

Mike Baker 26:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:03 That, that is the deal.

Mike Baker 26:04 Right. And so they, they work and they... I mean, you know, you can have, you can have someone show up here, go to undergrad, go to grad, um, end up working in a, in a, in, in Raytheon or wherever over a period of 30, 40 years, right? As a, essentially as an asset of Chinese intel, gathering information all along the way, answering specific questions. Sometimes it's, it's, um, i- it's straight-up appealing to, um, the homeland basically. So... And they're very successful at targeting, uh, uh, people who could be second, third generation even of China, uh, Chinese. And that's a, that's an appeal that they'll work on constantly 'cause they believe it works, and at times it has worked. Uh, they're very adept at, um, just identifying potential targets who may eventually be in a position of access. And they're willing over years and years to work on that. We have a much shorter timeframe, right? So we, we look at an asset, you know, in a very short period of time, right? And, and, uh, and in part it's, it's... I, I, I don't know what it is, but it's, it's the nature of kind of our intel collection operations, right? We send people overseas to work and, you know, maybe they're gonna be someplace for two or three years a- and, and so they know, "If I'm gonna get promoted, I gotta recruit. I gotta get some recruits. I gotta do that." So there's this, this th-... Whereas sometimes China is, is much more patient in that regard, right? They don't think about it that way. They're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna base it on, okay, did you get two recruits? They're gonna base it on did you develop somebody? Did you push 'em a little further down the path? That's a good thing if you did, because maybe that path is gonna take another five years, six, 10 years, 20 years. They don't care. They're willing to invest the time, whereas sometimes we get very impatient because in part, you know... I don't know, I don't know why. We're Americans. We're... You know, (laughs) we have a short attention span. So it does... I mean, I, I don't mean that in a, in a glib way, but there is that decided difference between the services.

Joe Rogan 28:04 Do we do the same thing? Do we have people over in Chinese universities that are working with the United States government? Can you say that?

Mike Baker 28:12 Um, it's-

Joe Rogan 28:14 No, we would never do that, Joe. (laughs)

Mike Baker 28:14 Yeah, we don't... We d-... Well, no, we would never do that, Joe. Come on. What the fuck?

Joe Rogan 28:18 (laughs)

Mike Baker 28:18 Although I... N- uh, now that you say it out loud-

Joe Rogan 28:20 I guess-

Mike Baker 28:20 ... it sounds like a good idea. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:21 ... I think you have to, right?

Mike Baker 28:23 Uh.

Joe Rogan 28:23 I mean, if this is the game you're playing, right?

Mike Baker 28:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:25 If the game you're playing is, uh, everybody's cheating, you kinda... I mean it's, it seems like it's part of the strategy that you have to employ if you wanna be successful.

Mike Baker 28:34 Yeah. Yeah, I would say it's, it's, it's much more difficult for us. We have an open society, right? They don't.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Right.

Mike Baker 28:42 So if you think about it, our ability to have a, a, to, to have a s- uh, say a student, if we're gonna go that route, you know, apply to a university in China, um, that's a, that's a much more rigorous process, right? Because they start from the perspective of, "There's something wrong here." (laughs) "Why is this person applying to our university?" So o- immediately they'll flag as a potential counterintelligence issue, right? Whereas we have, I don't even know at this point, maybe 300,000 more, uh, Chinese students here in various academic institutions going to school. Probably more than that.

Joe Rogan 29:18 And how many are monitored? Like, when you have 300,000, do we have enough federal agents to go, "Hey, let's make sure this guy isn't stealing information and sending it back to the CCP?"

Mike Baker 29:28 No, but every day, s- literally every day, the FBI as an example is opening up a new case on, on a, on a Chinese, uh, intelligence issue-

Joe Rogan 29:36 Every day.

Mike Baker 29:37 ... here in the States every day.

Joe Rogan 29:38 Every day.

Mike Baker 29:39 So they're stretched thin on a lot of fronts, um, including, you know, terrorism fronts, international and domestic, and... But the, the, the Chinese issue in counterintelligence, every single day they're opening up a new case.

Joe Rogan 29:49 I was-

Mike Baker 29:49 At least one.

Joe Rogan 29:50 I was having a conversation with a friend of mine un- about this, and I was saying, "You know what's kind of fucked is that what we do in America is every four years we have an election where it's a popularity contest for the most important job in the country. And so if you got the most important job in the country, every four years someone's new at it."

Mike Baker 30:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:12 (laughs) Which is crazy.

Mike Baker 30:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:13 Like-

Mike Baker 30:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:13 ... ima- like, imagine if you had to do any other job, whether it's brain surgery or, you know, whatever the fuck it is, you know, uh, building cars, and you've never done it before. I mean, that's literally everyone-

Mike Baker 30:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:25 ... you only get to do it twice. You get eight years max, right?

Mike Baker 30:28 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:29 Everyone-

Mike Baker 30:29 That's a, that's a good thing. (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:30 Right? I guess-

Mike Baker 30:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:31 ... it is a good thing.

Mike Baker 30:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:32 I guess it's a good thing. But when you look at what they're able to do in China, and th- this is not-

Mike Baker 30:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:37 ... me advocating for-

Mike Baker 30:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:39 ... totalitarian control by the government. But what I'm saying is-

Mike Baker 30:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:43 ... it is a massive advantage that they have in that they don't have that restriction.

Mike Baker 30:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:48 Like, they get to be really good at their job, and they understand it deeply. So, like, one of the things that, you know, w- what the Tinfoil Hat Brigade likes to talk about is the deep state, right?

Mike Baker 30:58 Mm-hmm. Right.

Joe Rogan 30:58 They always like to talk about the deep state.

Mike Baker 30:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 31:00 And w- what I was saying is, like, what if we didn't have a deep state? Do you know how fucked we would be if we didn't have career politicians and career intelligence agencies and care- people who are there for long periods of time that actually do understand it?

Mike Baker 31:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:14 If the fir- the person, I mean, I've-

Mike Baker 31:17 Every time?

Joe Rogan 31:17 Yeah. Listen, I've disrespected Joe Biden enough. I don't, I don't think I should do it anymore.

Mike Baker 31:22 You gotta stop?

Joe Rogan 31:22 'Cause I think I've, I've said enough about him-

Mike Baker 31:24 You gotta stop on my, on my show.

Joe Rogan 31:25 ... and my... We gotta stop.

Mike Baker 31:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 31:26 Being mentally inc- incompetent. I mean, he's just, uh, compromised. He's an old guy. We, we... There's no... We know. We know, right? Everyone knows. The guy's falling apart. But imagine if he really was the only say in how things run and how things go. If he really was-

Mike Baker 31:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:42 ... like, a dictator, we would be beyond fucked, right?

Mike Baker 31:45 Yeah, luckily, we got the 81-year-old Nancy Pelosi to back him up.

Joe Rogan 31:48 Oh, it's so important.

Mike Baker 31:48 So she's-

Joe Rogan 31:49 Yeah.

Mike Baker 31:49 ... falling apart harder than him. Wow. Uh-

Joe Rogan 31:51 It's-

Mike Baker 31:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:52 It's... I don't know if that's true. It's close. But it's-

Mike Baker 31:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:56 It's, it's... Well, it's a massive disadvantage, isn't it, though? I'm not... This is not me saying this, like, advocating for any different system.

Mike Baker 32:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 32:04 But what I'm saying is that if you just look at the structure of our government, the way we do elect a new leader every four years, every four years, someone is new. They start from scratch, which is crazy.

Mike Baker 32:18 Yeah, I think wha- what, what saves the system is what you pointed out, which is you've got career, uh, personnel, right? And they really do run the country, basically.

Joe Rogan 32:29 They have to.

Mike Baker 32:29 The folks that are there, the civil service group, um, the folks who... Now, if government gets too large, which you could argue it already has, then you got a problem. You got entrenched, you know, folks who, you know, maybe... I don't know. I... So I'm a little conflicted on that, but certainly for the intel service, right? And I know people are gonna say, "Well, fuck that. It's not, it's not apolitical." But you know what? It's... You know, I... You can only speak from your (laughs) experience. Mine was that the, the agency, uh, is essentially apolitical. You know, occasionally, y- you get a, someone like, uh, you know, John Brennan, who, you know, has a very close relationship with the president. He's been dinged for it in terms of, you know, he got all political, just like the FBI, you know, has obviously taken heat, um, in, in the past. But you want those institutions to be, uh, okay, let's say as apolitical as possible and not rotating out. And I've been to countries (laughs) where there's a change in government, there's a change-

Joe Rogan 33:28 Right.

Mike Baker 33:28 ... wholesale change in the intel service.

Joe Rogan 33:30 Not good.

Mike Baker 33:30 Yeah, it's not good. You got... Th- They're, they're completely beholden to whoever's in charge. You don't want that. Um, but, you know, we've talked about it before. Um, you know, I'm a, I'm a huge believer in term limits, right? And, and it's never gonna happen, but I'm a big believer in it. And it's just that you look at, you look at the current leadership. I, I don't know. I mean, how do you look at Schumer, at, uh, Mitch McConnell, at Pelosi, at, you know, uh, President Biden, and, and you think, "We got, we got octogenarians running our country." And I don't understand. You know, we got 330 million people in here. How do we not get, uh, a better slate of candidates? You know, repeatedly, since it is an-

Joe Rogan 34:15 Yeah.

Mike Baker 34:15 ... every four-year process. Or, you know, good God, Congress, it's every two years. Look at some of the people we got in Congress now. It's, it's fucked up.

Joe Rogan 34:22 Well, it's... It seems like a lot of our best and brightest don't want that gig.

Mike Baker 34:28 I think that's exactly it. I mean, who wants to put themselves through that? Right?

Joe Rogan 34:31 Yeah, who wants to put themselves through that? And then on top of that, you know, who wants to deal with all of the infighting and all the, the, the politics that are involved once you get into a position? What scares me is the idea that intelligence agencies would side with one party or one candidate or the other and not side with the greater good of the United States.

Mike Baker 34:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:54 Because then there could be a situation where information is withheld or information is not necessarily distributed evenly to Republicans or Democrats, depending upon, you know, what-

Mike Baker 35:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:09 ... the, the party favors or what, what the agency favors. That sounds crazy to me.

Mike Baker 35:13 Yeah, no, you cannot have that. The intel community, um, you know-

Joe Rogan 35:16 Has to be apolitical.

Mike Baker 35:17 ... writ large has got to be, uh, uh, apolitical. And you've gotta be... You've gotta work at it, right? I mean, you've gotta... Because you've got to be very careful. Um, and now, look, the director, uh, is appointed, right? So, um, and then approved, uh, through Congress. And, and, you know, so you, you have to... There's a process in place. You've got to be able to evaluate and look at people and make a decision. Okay, are they... You know. But the, the... For the most part, again, I would say... I would argue, and people would expect that, but I would argue that for the most part, the, the agency has done a good job of being apolitical through the years. Now, that doesn't mean mistakes haven't been made through the years. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that they've done a good job of, for the most part, being apolitical. And I'm basing that on seeing other intel services around the count- around the world and knowing how fucked up they can be.

Joe Rogan 36:07 So we're not the worst. (laughs)

Mike Baker 36:08 We're not the... (laughs) Yo!

Joe Rogan 36:10 But here's the ques-

Mike Baker 36:10 We're not the worst. That's a-

Joe Rogan 36:11 But-

Mike Baker 36:11 That's a resounding, yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:12 But here's the... Here's the question. When a guy like Trump gets into office and then r-... like, openly disparages intelligence agencies and openly disparages the- whether it's the FBI or the CIA, or who- whoever he's in some sort of a personal feud with.

Mike Baker 36:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:29 That seems very dangerous.

Mike Baker 36:32 Well, it's, it's dangerous to- I suppose if you, if you think- if, if all you're thinking about is, okay, morale, right? I mean-

Joe Rogan 36:38 Right.

Mike Baker 36:38 ... it, it does, it does work on a few levels. So, yeah, sure. But there was, and there was a lot of talk during, you know, Trump's, uh, time in office, uh, you know, um, that morale was sinking at the agency because he was, you know, kicking them in the ass on occasion, right?

Joe Rogan 36:53 Right.

Mike Baker 36:53 Well, honestly, the agency's taken a beating over the years from a variety of administrations and all I can, again, speak to is my experience, which spanned a handful of administrations. You know, from a, from a collection point of view, from just getting the job done, you, you know, they don't give a shit. "Just tell us what the tasking is," right? "And we'll go out and do it." You know, the... And, and the idea was always the director was your top cover. The director served as a liaison between the, the White House and kind of pro-... you know, protected the agency, right? From, you know, all the machinations or the, the back and forth. Now, once you collect that intel, right? If you're out in the field and you, you pull in intel and you throw it into the mix, right? You send it back or whatever, and it, and it... Once it leaves that building and it gets into that washing machine of Washington where there's lots of different, you know, people editing and looking at it before it ends up in, you know, in some briefing somewhere in, in the National Security Council, yeah, there's an editing process that goes on there. That's where a lot of the, the spin, a lot of the, you know, the agenda can be built in.

Joe Rogan 37:56 How does that work?

Mike Baker 37:57 Well, I mean, you got a lot of hands touching... You know, raw intelligence is one thing, right? You, you, you find somebody out in the field and they said, "Yeah, this is what Putin means because I was sitting in a meeting with him and, and two of the, the command staff and this is what he said." Okay, great, that's raw intelligence, right? So you report that back, word for word. You don't put your spin on it, right? As, as a, as a person that's collecting. And that goes back, but now that's going to get looked at by the, the guys writing the reports up and, and doing the analysis and assessment of, of, of this. They're putting it together with other intel maybe they're collecting from other sources, right? And then it, it... You've got... So the more hands that are touching that, you know, once it gets back to Washington, the more potential for editing, right? And for analysis and, and, and opinion, you know, might get in there. That's just a natural thing, right? That's gonna happen. But it's the raw intelligence th- that really matters. And sometimes I feel like we should have a more direct line from the actual raw intelligence, if you can protect sources and methods, direct to the end user, you know, to try to keep that editing process to a minimum.

Joe Rogan 39:01 Otherwise, you're playing a game of telephone too, right?

Mike Baker 39:04 Mm. It's not so much telephone where you, you know, you get the... I guess we used to say Chinese whispers. I, I, I guess-

Joe Rogan 39:10 Chinese whispers?

Mike Baker 39:11 Yeah. We can't say that anymore, can we? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:12 You're older than me, I guess.

Mike Baker 39:13 Yeah. Well, but we used to say that.

Joe Rogan 39:14 I never heard that. I never heard Chinese whispers.

Mike Baker 39:15 Really? You never heard that? Look at this.

Joe Rogan 39:16 Maybe it's an intelligence thing.

Mike Baker 39:18 Could be, could be.

Joe Rogan 39:18 Yeah, maybe.

Mike Baker 39:19 But anyway, the, the idea being, it's like that party game where you whisper something to someone, they whisper it along to somebody else.

Joe Rogan 39:23 Right.

Mike Baker 39:23 But it's not quite like that because there it's kinda... It's, it's more like, um, it gets blended in, right? And then that blending process with other sources of information and then just the natural inclination of people who are writing up reports or passing it from one, you know, uh, office to another to say, "Well, I think this is kind of what it means," and... or, "This is the most important part here." And so, you know, shit can move around. It's, it's, it's like editing a, a newspaper article, right? The more hands-

Joe Rogan 39:52 Right.

Mike Baker 39:52 ... get on it, the stranger it's gonna look.

Joe Rogan 39:54 Right.

Mike Baker 39:54 Um, it doesn't necessarily mean the, the facts are wrong. Maybe just the context or the priority part of this is, is, is missing or different. So I, I know I'm p- probably being-

Joe Rogan 40:05 No, it's... No, it's good because-

Mike Baker 40:07 Probably being nuanced there, but...

Joe Rogan 40:07 No, it is... It's important to be nuanced, I guess, 'cause someone like me doesn't really understand how the process works. And I think most people don't. Most people, uh, you know, they, they just know that we find out certain things about a certain terrorist cell or, you know, what have you-

Mike Baker 40:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:22 ... is happening in other parts of the world and we really don't know the process of how the intelligence gets to the people that make the decisions.

Mike Baker 40:28 I think what would surprise people too is, is how imperfect that intelligence can be sometimes.

Joe Rogan 40:32 Right.

Mike Baker 40:32 Right? Um, and, you know, that's one of the... I... Again, you know, every time I say something positive about, about the agency, I get, I get, you know, a couple thousand notes going, "Aah, fucking idiot."

Joe Rogan 40:44 Don't read that shit.

Mike Baker 40:44 Oh, I know. I don't... I- I- I don't. Although-

Joe Rogan 40:46 Listen.

Mike Baker 40:46 Although, I will say this much. Can I... I'm gonna, I'm gonna veer completely in a different direction-

Joe Rogan 40:50 Okay.

Mike Baker 40:50 ... now that you said this. Uh, one of my boys... I got three boys, right? And so, uh, Scooter, Sluggo, and Mugsy. I always talk about them. And Scooter, the, the, uh, the oldest one, came to me, he says, "I found this funny fucking thread," in some, you know, Reddit or something like that, where there's this whole bunch talking about the boys and what their names are.

Joe Rogan 41:13 Oh, boy.

Mike Baker 41:13 Right? And so I actually wrote down some of them. Um... And they're just speculation and people are saying, "No, that's not their names." So they're taking-

Joe Rogan 41:24 Oh, they have fake names.

Mike Baker 41:25 Well, I... Well, that's what they're saying. I mean-

Joe Rogan 41:27 Right.

Mike Baker 41:27 ... they're saying... So instead of Scooter, Sluggo, and Mugsy, I've got Scooter, Bozo, and Fucko. That wasn't it. Somebody thought it was Pooper, Bunghole, and Skidmark. That's not it. Scooter, Bamm-Bamm, and Fuckknuckle. Definitely not it. Tweaker, Barfo, and Butto. Not it.

Joe Rogan 41:42 You are wasting time repeating the things that-

Mike Baker 41:44 I know.

Joe Rogan 41:45 ... someone in a cubicle who's bored out of their fucking mind-

Mike Baker 41:47 I know. I know.

Joe Rogan 41:48 ... probably on Adderall-

Mike Baker 41:49 But my boys like this. In the last one-

Joe Rogan 41:51 (laughs)

Mike Baker 41:51 ... the, the youngest one, Mugsy, he likes... He's adopted the new name McFuckstick because he thinks that's funnier than anything, except for Fuckknuckle. He thought that was funny too.

Joe Rogan 41:58 Those are both pretty funny.

Mike Baker 41:59 Yeah. So anyway, uh...

Joe Rogan 42:01 It's a good nickname.

Mike Baker 42:02 I don't read them except for that one when my boy brought it to me and said, "You got to read this."

Joe Rogan 42:05 Yeah.

Mike Baker 42:05 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:06 Don't read the comments.

Mike Baker 42:07 Oh. No. No. But it's-

Joe Rogan 42:08 That's my, my number one piece of advice for everybody.

Mike Baker 42:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:11 The problem is-

Mike Baker 42:11 Do you get comments?

Joe Rogan 42:12 I'm sure I do.

Mike Baker 42:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:13 I'm sure there's a few out there.

Mike Baker 42:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:14 You can't. You'll go crazy. It's the, the only way to stay sane is to not... And the more controversy that comes my way, the more I'm solidified in my position.

Mike Baker 42:23 Let me ask you this, though. Do your kids...... read the comments.

Joe Rogan 42:26 My kids are very healthy. They, they know what's going on. They understand that d- their dad has a very weird job, but they know me.

Mike Baker 42:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:34 Like, I have a very good relationship with them. I communicate with them.

Mike Baker 42:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:37 So, when w- wild shit happens, I have to sit down with them and have a conversation with them. But they don't get concerned.

Mike Baker 42:43 Okay.

Joe Rogan 42:43 You know?

Mike Baker 42:44 H-

Joe Rogan 42:44 They're, they're reasonably adjusted to this very strange position that I'm in.

Mike Baker 42:49 So, they don't dive, they don't dive in on-

Joe Rogan 42:51 No.

Mike Baker 42:51 ... their own into comments-

Joe Rogan 42:52 No, no, no, no.

Mike Baker 42:52 ... and read about... Okay, that's-

Joe Rogan 42:53 They, they, they don't.

Mike Baker 42:53 ... very healthy. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:54 They don't. I've, I've educated them to that. It's, uh... You know, we live in a strange time of information and the ability to communicate. And I think there's-

Mike Baker 43:03 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 43:03 ... a lot good in that.

Mike Baker 43:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:04 But you have to navigate it correctly. It's like, y- there's a certain amount of freedom in our ability to communicate and our ability to express ourselves. And I think that's ultimately good. I am of the opinion that people should be able to express themselves. Um, but you gotta realize, like, if you gave me a Twitter account when I was 15 years old-

Mike Baker 43:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:24 ... and you, you let me tweet at Mike Baker, I'm gonna say some-

Mike Baker 43:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:28 ... fucking horrible shit to you, dude.

Mike Baker 43:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:30 If (laughs) , if I (laughs) , if I was, like-

Mike Baker 43:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:33 ... a 15-year-old kid.

Mike Baker 43:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:34 And they, they let them have their fucking phones in class, right?

Mike Baker 43:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:37 So, if the-

Mike Baker 43:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:38 ... teacher's not paying attention, and I'm bored out of my mind 'cause I don't give a shit about math, and I'm sitting there in my class, I'm gonna just tweet at Mike Baker.

Mike Baker 43:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:45 And if Mike Baker bites, and, you know, and people do bite-

Mike Baker 43:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:48 You know?

Mike Baker 43:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:49 They, they bite... "Oh, this mother... What did you say, you son of a bitch?" And then, you know, you got fun.

Mike Baker 43:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:54 You got fun on your hands.

Mike Baker 43:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:55 You're tweeting at people.

Mike Baker 43:55 You got something on the line.

Joe Rogan 43:56 Yeah. Well, you-

Mike Baker 43:57 You got, you got, you got a trout on the line right there.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Yeah.

Mike Baker 43:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:59 Or people love to just make up a completely fake story and, and see if the, that makes it into the news.

Mike Baker 44:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:06 They, they get, like... There's, uh, been a f- a whole thing where 100 people, at least, have texted me, and, and sent me emails and contacted friends because they heard Trump was coming on my podcast. And-

Mike Baker 44:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:18 ... the, the source of it is a fake-

Mike Baker 44:21 (sniffs)

Joe Rogan 44:21 ... Trump account on Twitter.

Mike Baker 44:22 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 44:23 It said, "I'm going on the Joe..." It's, uh, Trump's face, and it's a fake account, and said, "I'm going on the Joe Rogan podcast soon." And I think it came out of, uh, the fact that Trump was on the Nelk Boys podcast, and then YouTube removed that podcast. They, they, they-

Mike Baker 44:39 Okay.

Joe Rogan 44:40 ... pulled the podcast.

Mike Baker 44:40 Yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 44:41 Which is, you know... That's one of the craziest things you could do because then everyone's gonna talk about how YouTube removed the, removed that podcast.

Mike Baker 44:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:48 Like, you can't even have Trump talk?

Mike Baker 44:49 Right, right. Well-

Joe Rogan 44:50 The former president of the United States, you c- you, you can't let him talk?

Mike Baker 44:53 Somebody did send me... Apparently not, but somebody (laughs) did send me a, uh, uh, uh, a note saying that he was gonna be on your show.

Joe Rogan 45:00 Yeah.

Mike Baker 45:00 And-

Joe Rogan 45:00 It's crazy.

Mike Baker 45:00 Yeah. And I thought, um...

Joe Rogan 45:02 I've got the, uh-

Mike Baker 45:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:03 ... original...

Mike Baker 45:03 Not really sure if that's the case. But-

Joe Rogan 45:04 If somebody's... It's not the case-

Mike Baker 45:06 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 45:06 ... I'll send (laughs) , I'll send you the, uh...

Mike Baker 45:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:09 Look, uh, I am, uh, I'm... I have decided that, uh, I am very apolitical when it comes to, uh, the future and, like, in political candidates. Uh, I don't wanna have that kind of an influence, and I don't want to... I don't want to... I wanna be someone who can watch and observe. I don't wanna be someone who's actually, uh, affecting this.

Mike Baker 45:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:31 There's a-

Mike Baker 45:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:31 ... certain amount I'm, I'm affecting no matter what I do. And I g- I'm trying to find this fucking Trump thing. Do you know where it is, Jamie?

Guest 45:37 Yeah, I got it.

Joe Rogan 45:38 Yeah, so it's a, it's a fake tweet. We can just... Here it is. This is the fake tweet.

Mike Baker 45:42 Ah.

Joe Rogan 45:43 Okay. "Donald Trump is scheduled to go on Joe Rogan podcast." Who said this? Well, he got it from somewhere else, though. He got it from, from this fake one that I got.

Guest 45:51 Uh, this was the first one that I saw. But then it has 115,000 likes on it.

Joe Rogan 45:55 Oh, I got it. Yeah, I got the original one, though. Hold on a second here. I'll text it to you.

Mike Baker 45:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:58 This is the, this is (laughs) -

Guest 46:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:00 This is the original one. It's 150,000 likes?

Mike Baker 46:02 Okay, this is, this is the one that somebody sent me.

Joe Rogan 46:04 No.

Guest 46:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:04 This is not real.

Mike Baker 46:05 Yeah, yeah.

Guest 46:05 Yeah, this is where it started.

Joe Rogan 46:05 I don't know who this person is. But who is this person?

Guest 46:07 It's, it's a fake Barron Trump account.

Joe Rogan 46:10 What does he get, a mustache?

Guest 46:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Barron Trump has a mustache now?

Mike Baker 46:11 You don't think it's... You don't think that's really him?

Guest 46:13 I-

Mike Baker 46:14 Yeah, no?

Guest 46:14 It could be.

Mike Baker 46:15 Yeah.

Guest 46:15 It'd be a very, uh...

Mike Baker 46:17 (laughs) He's clever.

Guest 46:18 Yeah. But they also put their also Gmail address down.

Mike Baker 46:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:21 Yeah. Well, send that guy a lot of dick pics-

Guest 46:24 Give me a second.

Joe Rogan 46:24 ... 'cause he's just making shit up.

Mike Baker 46:25 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 46:25 So, I sent, I sent Jamie the original one.

Mike Baker 46:27 Okay.

Joe Rogan 46:27 And this is the original one that got sent out. And, you know, look-

Guest 46:32 Uh, this cat put it... 'Cause the other one now.

Joe Rogan 46:34 To the normies and the casuals, this got put up first.

Guest 46:36 Yeah, the other one was put up three hours before this one was.

Joe Rogan 46:38 Oh, really?

Mike Baker 46:40 Oh, okay.

Guest 46:40 And o- other Trump accounts started tweeting it to give it more va- val- validity because it looked like a Trump account was tweeting it.

Joe Rogan 46:47 Uh, well, yeah, you're right.

Mike Baker 46:48 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:48 That only has 11,000 likes.

Guest 46:50 It was 12:30, and the other one was like 9:30.

Joe Rogan 46:51 Yeah, I... You know-

Mike Baker 46:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:53 As, uh... I've, I've decided, like, what I'm, what I'm actually interested in is talking to people. I'm not at-

Mike Baker 46:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:59 I'm not nearly as interested in, uh, affecting things. And unfortunately, there's so many fucking people paying attention. I'm doing it the same way-

Mike Baker 47:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:09 ... I've always done it.

Mike Baker 47:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:10 But now there's more people paying attention.

Mike Baker 47:12 Well, I'll be honest with you. I never thought you were trying to affect anything. I always thought you, y- you're... What you were doing was having people on, asking them questions, having them talk, ask them more questions. I mean, that, that always seemed like... And so, regardless of where they are on whatever spectrum you're talking about-

Joe Rogan 47:26 Yeah.

Mike Baker 47:26 ... it seems like a pretty straightforward formula, right?

Joe Rogan 47:28 Yeah, but it doesn't matter to people-

Mike Baker 47:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:30 ... because of the numbers, the sheer numbers of people that are paying attention, you know?

Mike Baker 47:34 Yeah.

Guest 47:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:34 And also, it's independent. The fact that it's this big... And, you know, this is the fucking skeleton crew.

Mike Baker 47:41 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:41 And it's... Millions of people are paying attention.

Mike Baker 47:44 Yeah. It's a, it's a good crew.

Joe Rogan 47:45 It's a good-

Mike Baker 47:45 It's a skeleton crew.

Joe Rogan 47:46 It's solid-

Mike Baker 47:46 But it's a good crew.

Joe Rogan 47:47 Solid crew.

Mike Baker 47:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:47 Jamie's the best.

Mike Baker 47:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:48 But it's just... The idea that one person can have that much influence is, uh, disturbing to a lot of folks who would like these giant corporations that are controlled by the pharmaceutical companies and whoever the fuck else is paying their advertising to decide what can and can't be talked about and not, not be said or not discussed. And, you know, what's misinformation and what's real information? It's like...

Mike Baker 48:12 Well, it's, it's... You know what it is? Uh, everybody... We, we, we are living soft lives now.

Joe Rogan 48:16 Yeah, soft as fuck.

Mike Baker 48:16 And this is one of my favorite topics. And so, we all have the time on our hands to be offended by everything, where before we were out there trying to collect some food and some clean water-... uh, I'm not saying we were trying to do that 10 years ago, but we've gotten to the point now where, you know, we can all be just offended as fuck over anything. There was a free speech, uh, uh, conversation, debate held at, uh, where? Yale, uh, just, just may have been this past week, and it was interrupted by a, a large protest from a bunch of the law students there who, eh, objected to the fact that there was a free- (laughs) speech debate.

Joe Rogan 48:50 That is fucking madness.

Mike Baker 48:52 (laughs) It's, it's, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:53 It's, it's fucking madness and it's dangerous, and the- these fucking kids, they don't realize how goddamn dangerous it is. When you stifle debate, then who decides what can and can't be talked about? It's not gonna be you.

Mike Baker 49:07 No.

Joe Rogan 49:07 I got news for you. And these, these woke kids who think because they scream the loudest and they pull fire alarms and they stop discussions and they stifle debates, they think that they have more control than they really do, but what they do, do in that is they set a precedent. And that precedent is you can stifle information that makes you uncomfortable. You can stifle discussions where people have points of view that you don't agree with and you think you're right, so you think you should be able to stop those points of view. That is not the way to do it. It's just not. It's never been the way to do it. It's a dangerous precedent to set because then when more power is, uh, acquired by whoever, whe- whether it's social media companies or the government or whoever the fuck it is, they get to s- establish narrative, and that narrative might not be honest.

Mike Baker 49:59 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:59 And that's a real problem. And the only way to find out what's real and what's not real is to let people talk. You know, I had on, uh, Daryl Davis, uh, I don't know if you know who he is.

Mike Baker 50:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:11 But he's, uh, he's a musician who personally himself has taken more than 200 Klansmen and neo-Nazis and got them to completely abandon their ideology and hand him their robes. He's this really interesting-

Mike Baker 50:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:30 ... guy 'cause he's, he's a brilliant musician, but through his music and doing these, uh, concerts and shows he's done, he, he ran into a Klansman back in the day.

Mike Baker 50:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:43 And had a conversation with this guy, and the guy... And he's black, and the guy was like, "I, I've never talked to a black guy. I've never had a bl- a drink with a black guy before." He's like, "What?"

Mike Baker 50:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:50 He goes, "Yeah, I'm in the Klan." He thought the guy was joking. He goes, the guy shows him his Klan ID card.

Mike Baker 50:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:56 And he's just like, "I guess they have ID cards." Uh, I guess. I guess.

Mike Baker 50:56 Wait. (laughs) I'm sorry. Wait. So-

Joe Rogan 50:57 I guess they have ID cards.

Mike Baker 50:58 There's, there's ID cards? That's fantastic.

Joe Rogan 51:00 I guess. I guess.

Mike Baker 51:00 Who knew?

Joe Rogan 51:01 I guess they don't trust that you're really in the Klan. They give you an ID.

Mike Baker 51:04 (laughs) So, until you see what the ID card and the Dakota ring-

Joe Rogan 51:07 This is Daryl. That's Daryl there.

Mike Baker 51:08 Wow.

Joe Rogan 51:09 And he was on, uh, last week, and he was on with Bill Ottman who is the CEO of Minds. And Minds is a decentralized social media company that does not believe in censorship. They, they stop threats and doxing and things along the- those lines, but they believe that the only way to really sort out what's right and what's wrong is to let people communicate. And Daryl has the fucking patience of a saint. I mean-

Mike Baker 51:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:36 ... the man is a saint. He, he, he... What he's done is extraordinary. He's affected people personally through his own intelligence and his own ability to stay calm and communicate with people who have ridiculous ideas and give them better i-... And through-

Mike Baker 51:51 While-

Joe Rogan 51:51 ... these conversations, he's got them to change their minds.

Mike Baker 51:54 Well, and then think about the multiplying effect of that, right?

Joe Rogan 51:56 Yes.

Mike Baker 51:56 Maybe, you know, people say, "Well, a couple hundred people," but all the people those folks know then, right?

Joe Rogan 52:00 W-

Mike Baker 52:00 They can impact their families-

Joe Rogan 52:02 Yes.

Mike Baker 52:02 ... their behavior, their actions, and impact their friends. I mean, that's-

Joe Rogan 52:05 Then come on here-

Mike Baker 52:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:06 ... and then establish that and, and have these conversations on here which reach millions and millions of people and they hear about it, and they talk, and then they, they find out these conversations th- this guy has had with these people and it makes them think.

Mike Baker 52:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:18 You can't just stifle communication and think that, you know, there's dangerous thoughts out there and we have to stop them. I mean, that was how... The ACLU used to fight for the right... Uh, Jewish lawyers-

Mike Baker 52:30 Right.

Joe Rogan 52:30 ... used to fight for the right, rights of Nazis to express themselves. The most abhorrent people in society fight for their right to express themselves because the, the, the opposite of that is more dangerous. Stifling speech is more dangerous.

Mike Baker 52:46 Yeah, yeah. Well, I- I'm not sure how we, how we walk a dog back, uh, from where we are right now. Um, I did see an article, um, do- if I remember where the hell it was, and it was just, just the other day that was written, I think it was an op-ed piece, that basically argued that part of the problem, or, it started out by saying, why are young folks so susceptible to disinformation? Well, the problem was, what they were saying was they're susceptible to disinformation from one side, right?

Joe Rogan 53:13 Right, exactly.

Mike Baker 53:14 So, so imagine. It was, it was, it was written by a, a, a progressive, uh, author, and, and as it turns out, their, their argument was we, we spend too much time on STEM, on science and technology, English, math, not enough on philosophy and critical thinking (laughs) and teaching kids that, so that we should be teaching more of that. And the problem with STEM is that it teaches, you know, finite answers or definitive answers and doesn't teach critical thinking. Uh, I, I read the whole thing and I, I, I-

Joe Rogan 53:40 Well, it's critical theory-

Mike Baker 53:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:41 ... not critical thinking-

Mike Baker 53:42 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:42 ... 'cause critical thinking allows you to look at all sorts of different subjects and different, you know, s- different facts and, and what's, what are the variables and what are the influences and what's going on here?

Mike Baker 53:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:55 Unless you look at, just try to look at things critically. But critical theory, and, you know, it, uh, uh, is a lot of it is, like, uh, progressive ideology. It's, they have a dogma, and when you have a dogma, it's not much different than religion in a lot of ways where you, you don't want anybody to have an opposing perspective that challenges the dogma.And that's not good.

Mike Baker 54:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:18 If your, if your fucking... If your ideology doesn't stand up to scrutiny, it's not a good ideology. And the only way to find that out is to apply it to scrutiny or apply scrutiny to it. Apply-

Mike Baker 54:28 Or just test it.

Joe Rogan 54:28 Yeah, test it. Yes.

Mike Baker 54:28 That was the idea, right? Right? That's it... Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that's the whole concept. And that's why... I mean, science, that was always an interesting debate during the past couple of years. No, the, the whole point of science is to, is to constantly question it, right?

Joe Rogan 54:38 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 54:38 And, and to test your theories. And to... Uh, but any time you'd say anything during the course of the, the, the past two years, it was like, "Well, you gotta... You, know, you gotta fucking believe the science."

Joe Rogan 54:45 Yeah.

Mike Baker 54:45 Well, th- that doesn't mean you just take the word of somebody in a public health position. That means you listen to it, take it on board, and then compare it and test it and ask other questions, right? You... But y- you're right, I mean, we've gotten to this point where, uh, it became a religion almost.

Joe Rogan 55:00 Well, John Abramson is a guy that I had on the podcast that really opened my eyes to, uh, how these things work in terms of pharmaceutical companies. And one of the things that he said is that when studies are done, that the people... The, the scientists that are conducting the studies do not have access to the raw data. They have access to the interpretation of the data that's provided to them by the pharmaceutical companies.

Mike Baker 55:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:27 So it's-

Mike Baker 55:27 You know what that sounds like? Intel collection.

Joe Rogan 55:29 It... Well, it sounds-

Mike Baker 55:29 The whole process.

Joe Rogan 55:30 It sounds...

Mike Baker 55:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:31 Well, also, the thing... The difference is, Intel, they, they're not personally making billions of dollars-

Mike Baker 55:38 Mm.

Joe Rogan 55:38 ... off of that information.

Mike Baker 55:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:40 And then they don't also-

Mike Baker 55:41 (sniffs)

Joe Rogan 55:41 ... do something that winds up being incorrect and costs the lives of th- uh, tens of thousands of Americans by hiding information and lying. I mean, unless you wanna talk about weapons of mass destruction and things along those lines-

Mike Baker 55:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:55 ... 'cause that is-

Mike Baker 55:56 Well, there's that.

Joe Rogan 55:57 There's a little bit of that.

Mike Baker 55:58 Okay. Um... But-

Joe Rogan 55:59 But y-

Mike Baker 55:59 Well, well, Pfizer came out and said, you know, "I think, uh, maybe we need a fourth booster." Uh-

Joe Rogan 56:04 That was Moderna. Moderna came out and said that today.

Mike Baker 56:05 Was it Moderna that came out or was it Pfizer?

Joe Rogan 56:07 Look, Moderna is trying to get, um... They're trying to get FDA... Uh, maybe Pfizer has done it as well, but f- Moderna... You know, Pfizer... You're right.

Mike Baker 56:14 I think Pfizer came out first-

Joe Rogan 56:15 No, you're right. Pfizer did do it too.

Mike Baker 56:16 ... and said-

Joe Rogan 56:17 Right.

Mike Baker 56:17 And, and then 'cause I remember their stock. I, I took a look at their stock to see what it was doing shortly after that statement, and it went up.

Joe Rogan 56:22 Right, uh-

Mike Baker 56:23 Uh-

Joe Rogan 56:23 Both of them. Yeah, so they both have done it.

Mike Baker 56:25 Okay.

Joe Rogan 56:25 Yeah. So they seek auth- authorization for boosters for older Americans. Well, look, if the fucking data is real, and if the data-

Mike Baker 56:32 Sure.

Joe Rogan 56:32 But you gotta have access to the real data. I mean, y- you... If, if, if it... The, the data shows that, um, another booster for older Americans is beneficial, then yeah, they should have access to it.

Mike Baker 56:42 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:43 But the... What Abramson is saying, you don't get access to the raw data. You get access to the pharmaceutical company's interpretation of the data. And th- and they oftentimes skew that in a way that would be more profitable for them. And so he talked about there's a, uh, a product that was on the market, um, called Vioxx. And, th- I have a, a friend who took this stuff and had a stroke because of it. This stuff, they knew was going to cause all sorts of cardiovascular issues with people and blood clots and the like.

Mike Baker 57:14 What was it designed to do?

Joe Rogan 57:15 It was... It's an anti-inflammation drug-

Mike Baker 57:17 Okay.

Joe Rogan 57:18 ... that wasn't any better than non-steroidal anti-inflammatories like Advil and ibuprofen. And Abramson was part of the team that, you know, was prosecuting this and was part of the team that was, uh, in court about this. And, uh, they showed that they knew that this was gonna cause these events, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 to 60,000 Americans died because of their interpretation of what this stuff was versus the reality of what this stuff was. And one of them was a buddy of mine who got a fucking stroke because he had knee problems.

Mike Baker 57:53 When you think about the pharmaceutical industry, they go out... I mean, there's a... It's all... That... The whole chain of then the sales reps going out to the doctors-

Joe Rogan 57:59 Yeah.

Mike Baker 57:59 ... you know, and introducing these new, you know, uh-

Joe Rogan 58:02 Yeah.

Mike Baker 58:02 ... therapeutics and saying, "Hey, re- this is a great opportunity, you know."

Joe Rogan 58:05 Yeah.

Mike Baker 58:05 "Let's do it." And yeah, I, I don't profess to understand that, that, uh-

Joe Rogan 58:08 Well, my wife's mom's a nurse.

Mike Baker 58:10 ... world.

Joe Rogan 58:10 And so I found out about this years ago, where she was explaining how the doctors would, um... The pharmaceutical rep- reps, rather, would take the doctors and the nurses out for these expensive dinners. And they, they, they're not allowed to bribe you, but they get real close. So it's like what you were talking-

Mike Baker 58:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:25 It's like what you were talking about with-

Mike Baker 58:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:27 ... um, you know, what you do to an asset. That's how, that's how they treat it. And I'm sure there are some bribes being... I'm not naive. But for the most part, the way they do it is they sweet talk. And I have a friend who's a good friend who actually owns a pharmacy, and he explained to me that before that, he was a pharmaceutical representative and he used to do that.

Mike Baker 58:50 Okay.

Joe Rogan 58:50 And he was told, "Listen, I want you to know their fucking kids' names. You're gonna show up at the baseball games. You're gonna cheer them on. You're gonna give them gifts. You're gonna do-"

Mike Baker 58:59 No.

Joe Rogan 58:59 "... whatever the fuck you can do to get close to these people so that when something comes up and maybe they could prescribe your drug, they'll be more inclined to do that. And that is the way you sell more drugs."

Mike Baker 59:09 It's a product.

Joe Rogan 59:10 Yeah, it's a product.

Mike Baker 59:10 It's like you're pushing tin or anything else. You, you, you-

Joe Rogan 59:12 You're selling Corvettes.

Mike Baker 59:13 You develop... Yep. You're developing-

Joe Rogan 59:14 It's a fucking great car, Mike.

Mike Baker 59:15 ... relationships. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:15 You look good in that car.

Mike Baker 59:16 Oh.

Joe Rogan 59:16 That car looks good on you.

Mike Baker 59:18 Not as, not as-

Joe Rogan 59:18 Get in.

Mike Baker 59:18 ... good as my 1965 MGB looks.

Joe Rogan 59:21 That's right.

Mike Baker 59:21 That fucking car is great.

Joe Rogan 59:23 It's an old... It's an old piece of shit.

Mike Baker 59:23 I know. You were making fun of it the last time I was here.

Joe Rogan 59:25 It's an old piece of shit. It's got-

Mike Baker 59:25 It's got-

Joe Rogan 59:25 ... 100 horsepower.

Mike Baker 59:26 Oh, my God. It, it's a great car, though.

Joe Rogan 59:27 Does it even have 100?

Mike Baker 59:28 (laughs) It's got like 72.

Joe Rogan 59:30 You fucking goddamn American Corvette.

Mike Baker 59:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:32 How dare you compare the two?

Mike Baker 59:33 Oh, I'm not comparing the two.

Joe Rogan 59:34 You're, you're a British guy, I forget.

Mike Baker 59:36 I'm just saying. Yeah, uh-

Joe Rogan 59:36 I keep forgetting, you're not really American.

Mike Baker 59:38 Uh, God, don't say that out loud. Um, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:41 You weren't born here, right?

Mike Baker 59:42 Uh, no, I was born over-

Joe Rogan 59:42 You were born in the, on the-

Mike Baker 59:43 Just outside of London.

Joe Rogan 59:44 The original.

Mike Baker 59:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:45 The original spot.

Mike Baker 59:46 The, the mother country. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:49 (laughs)

Mike Baker 59:49 God bless the Queen. Uh-

Joe Rogan 59:50 But it's, you know, it's-

Mike Baker 59:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:51 What... The only way we f- I mean, this... Bring it back to the censorship thing. The only way we find out all these things, whether it's, uh, information about pharmaceutical drug companies or information about the influence of foreign bodies on students, or... You have to fucking talk about things.

Mike Baker 1:00:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 You have to have open communication. And the only way you find out if someone's full of shit or if someone's lying or someone's d- withholding information is to let people talk and let people sort things through. The inf- the, the truth is messy. There's a lot going on in the world.

Mike Baker 1:00:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:21 And you can't stifle information and debate. It's not healthy for anybody. And you can't do it just because you think your side is correct. It's not good. It's not-

Mike Baker 1:00:31 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:00:31 It's not wh- what's-... amazing about a free society. And you can't decide that there's certain ugly aspects of this society that you think should be suppressed, because when you do that, then people are gonna decide your aspect of society is ugly, your perspective is ugly.

Mike Baker 1:00:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 If we get a fucking hardcore Putin-type leader running this country-

Mike Baker 1:00:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 ... and they start cracking down on legitimate journalists that are exposing corruption, then you get into dangerous circumstances. And this is the problem that I had with, like, the New York Post article on the Biden-

Mike Baker 1:01:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 ... uh, Hunter Biden laptop being suppressed. It's not that I'm a, a, a Trump supporter. I'm not, I didn't vote for him.

Mike Baker 1:01:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 I didn't vote for any Republican ever in my life. But, uh, y- you're looking at something that's real information and you're hiding it from people because you don't like the result that you think is gonna come out of that information. That's not-

Mike Baker 1:01:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 ... that's not how y- we're supposed to be doing things.

Mike Baker 1:01:22 Well, I think that's... And that, and it's all part and parcel and I think it's why there's so much dissatisfaction, you know, there's so much distrust, uh, because I think people are starting to realize, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:32 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:01:32 Regardless, again, where they are on the spectrum, both sides have an equal ability to think, "I don't think I'm seeing or hearing or being told accurate information here." And, a- and you're right. I mean, Putin, look... (sighs) Shit, if you, you know, you talk about, um, you know, Biden and, and, uh, his age, or you talk about any, you know, any presidential term and the fact that we roll it over, you look at the opposite side of it, Putin got into, into power in (sighs) '99, right? So Yeltsin's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 That's crazy.

Mike Baker 1:01:59 Yeah. Yeltsin nominated, or made him, uh, acting president in '99.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 So 23-

Mike Baker 1:02:05 And-

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 ... fucking years of running that country.

Mike Baker 1:02:07 Yeah. Yeah. Well, he, he took a break in-

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 Sort of.

Mike Baker 1:02:10 ... in '08 as, a- he was (laughs) the prime minister. Not really a break. And, uh, then for four years, and now he's been in office running that country, literally, since '99. And h- they've changed the, th- the rules of the game. Uh, he actually, if his health stays and he's, whatever, 69, 70, 69, he, uh, he can be in office until 2036.

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 Well, he has access to the cutting edge technology and science and, and, and, and m- medical advances. That guy can be healthy as fuck for a long time. We're l- we live in a different world now, you know? And I can say this from personal experience being a 54-year-old guy. When I was a kid, 54-year-old men were dead. We don't-

Mike Baker 1:02:55 Yeah. You don't look a day over, like 53.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 Thank you.

Mike Baker 1:02:58 Yeah.

Guest 1:02:58 That's what it's like.

Mike Baker 1:02:58 Appreciate that. You're welcome.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 But the, what you can do with your body is so different-

Mike Baker 1:03:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 ... if you have access to y- hyperbaric chambers and human growth hormone and testosterone replacement and, you know, NMN and NAD and all these different things that lengthen telomeres and improve your biological age. I mean, there's a whole science behind this now.

Mike Baker 1:03:19 What's a, what's the lifespan now for, uh, say-

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 They don't know.

Mike Baker 1:03:21 ... i- in America-

Joe Rogan 1:03:22 They don't.

Mike Baker 1:03:22 ... a US male?

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 Well, it still sucks because we drink too much and we smoke too much, as I put down this cup.

Mike Baker 1:03:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 And, uh, we eat garbage food and m- you know, the, there's a vast majority of us are sedentary and, uh, are overweight. And we, we've talked about this on the podcast ad nauseam-

Mike Baker 1:03:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 ... but it was, it is pr- it's a real problem. The metabolic health of the average American is piss poor. And it's because most people, first of all, they're stressed out, they work too much-

Mike Baker 1:03:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 ... they don't have a lot of time, you know, and they also haven't made it a priority to take care of their physical health. But if you were a guy like Putin and you had boundless resources, I mean, by all accounts, that guy is worth an astounding amount of money.

Mike Baker 1:04:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 I mean, I don't-

Mike Baker 1:04:05 Possibly the w- the wealthiest, uh, Russian alive. Possibly. Even more so than, than some of his buddies who have spent a number of years now, uh, making him-

Joe Rogan 1:04:13 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:04:13 ... the richest person.

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 I was gonna talk to you about that.

Mike Baker 1:04:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 So what is this whole deal with the oligarchs? And what do you think is the strategy behind that? Because all these guys are, like, trying to hide their yachts-

Mike Baker 1:04:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:24 ... and some of them have had their yachts taken away from them. First of all, where do those yachts go? And who gets to access (claps hands) them now?

Mike Baker 1:04:30 (sighs) No, right? Right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:30 How does that happen?

Mike Baker 1:04:31 Man.

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 Just like-

Mike Baker 1:04:31 We, uh... I, I, yeah, in my business, there were a handful of times in the, over the past years where we were asked to go after and, and seize a- an asset like a yacht. And it's, it's good fun, (laughs) but it's, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 (snorts)

Mike Baker 1:04:43 ... we don't get to keep them, unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 But who does?

Mike Baker 1:04:46 Uh, you know, whoever-

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Do they auction them off?

Mike Baker 1:04:47 Yeah, I mean, whoever... It depends on why it's being seized. If it's being seized-

Joe Rogan 1:04:50 Right.

Mike Baker 1:04:50 ... you know, for failure to pay, then, you know, it goes back to whoever's, you know, holding the, the note. But, um...

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 But, like, now when they're, they're seizing yachts-

Mike Baker 1:04:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 ... these Russian oligarchs-

Mike Baker 1:04:58 The government, you know, like France was involved in, in picking up a couple, uh, just recently. Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 So they party on them now?

Mike Baker 1:05:05 Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking Macron is, is (laughs) on board-

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 (laughs)

Mike Baker 1:05:08 ... one of those yachts having the time of his life. But, but this is... I mean, you touched on a really important part of what the hell is happening right now is because, uh... One of the reasons Putin just made these comments the other day, right? He came out and he talked about, you know, the people that aren't real Russians-

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Right.

Mike Baker 1:05:22 ... they're scum, they're traitors.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:05:24 What really set him off, because sometimes it's, it's a little simpler than we imagine, kind of going back to what we talked about before, we kind of overlook the obvious in terms of the why he acts the way he does. Part of this is he... When he came into power, nobody really gave him any, any, you know, thought, right? And he'd been a, like a deputy mayor in, in Leningrad. And he showed up, he proved himself fairly capable. Um, got himself tight with, uh, Yeltsin, uh, was appointed as head of the FSB, you know, the old, uh, KGB, the domestic service. And, um-

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 FSB is the new version of the KGB?

Mike Baker 1:05:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, so they, they, uh... He, he sort of found himself in, in this position rising to the top. And one of the first things he did, which surprised a lot of people, was he reined in the oligarchs supposedly, right? He, he called them all together and he says, you know, "Fuck you." He, uh, took over, uh, media companies. He understood the importance of shutting down, you know, media that was possibly in opposition to him as, as he grew in strength. Um, reined them in. And, you know, there were... It's really been, other than Khodorkovsky, there's been really nobody that's, that's gotten out of line over all these years. Now, one of the things the oligarchs did in exchange was, you know, help essentially hide, manage money on his behalf. And now what's happened recently since the Ukrainian invasion-... invasion of Ukraine is that some of these guys, uh, Mikhail Friedman, uh, Arvind, um, who else? Uh, Abramovich, um, they've, they've come out and they haven't criticized Putin directly, but they've, they've criticized the war. Said, "No, we shouldn't be doing this. We gotta stop this. You know, we gotta stop the bloodshed, stop this. We shouldn't be fighting the Ukrainians." That, as an example, it really sets Putin off, right?

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 1:07:12 Because he's like, "Fuck you, I made you." In his mind, he made them.

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 Right.

Mike Baker 1:07:16 In their minds, they're thinking, "No, fuck nut, we..." You know, fuck knuckle, to use a name.

Joe Rogan 1:07:23 (laughs) .

Mike Baker 1:07:23 They, uh, they made him or they made him the wealthiest guy.

Joe Rogan 1:07:26 Right.

Mike Baker 1:07:26 And so there's this, there's this other element, and again, you're always trying to piece together why the fuck, what's... 'Cause you're trying to, again, beaver down into saying, "Okay, what are his plans and intentions? What, what's he gonna do next?" To know that you gotta, you gotta get inside his head. And so part of this is understanding why he's, he's doing things and why he's thinking. So anyway, then he comes out and he says, "Fuck you and your villas. I don't mind you having villas." Well, of course not 'cause he's got, you know, he's got some really nice places, right? Uh, spread around.

Joe Rogan 1:07:52 Doesn't he have some gigantic billion dollar castle that he's sort of denied owning, but they, they do believe that he has it?

Mike Baker 1:08:01 Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:02 Because there was some, like, newspaper report on it, it's this massive compound.

Mike Baker 1:08:06 His, his assets are remarkable, right? And a lot of 'em are, are, are very well, very well hidden, in part because he's used these smart guys who spend a lot of time hiding their own money, right? And so anyway, the, this, this point is, is, is Putin just kind of went off, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 So that's what he's going off about. He's going off about-

Mike Baker 1:08:27 In, in... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:27 ... these oligarchs that-

Mike Baker 1:08:28 In part, and he's also had, he's also had some, you know, some, uh, of the military command, um, uh, uh, come out and express concern. There's some anecdotal evidence. It's, again, the intel, solid intel, you know, is, is not as good as it, as we'd like. But there's anecdotal evidence that there's, you know, an increasing amount of discomfort within the command structure and within his, uh, uh, security service that this is the wro... This... We shouldn't have done this. This is the wrong tact. Where is this going? It's, uh, it's impacting the Russian people in a big way. He's fucking over the Russian population, right? He's creating this, this situation where, you know, he's isolating the country, right? And he's really putting them, um, as sort of the, uh, you know... He's almost creating a situation, and this is... I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, with China, where China's gonna start looking at Russia the same way they look at North Korea, which is, "Uh, for fuck's sake, we gotta take care of these people now, right? We've gotta, we're gonna be the ones supplying." Now, China looks at this and goes, "Yeah, fine." And for, uh, for the time being, while it looks like a, you know, like... You know, they look at Russia like it's a Costco now, you know. "We can get oil and gas, you know, on the cheap," 'cause the open... price is discounted now because there's not a lot of buyers or there's fewer buyers. Uh, agricultural products, uh, minerals. So China's looking at it like a, a, a place where they can go. They don't look at Russia as an equal, right? They don't look and think, "Oh, we gotta, you know, we gotta rise to the top, and one of the things we have to do is get past Russia." They've already done that, right? Um, but they,