Joe Rogan Experience #1807 - Douglas Murray

Narrator 0:00 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music) Oh. Well, I guess we are going there. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 0:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:15 We're up and running.

Douglas Murray 0:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:16 First of all, you look fucking great. You look like you've been working out. What's going on?

Douglas Murray 0:20 I have been.

Joe Rogan 0:21 You have been.

Douglas Murray 0:21 And I'm also not wearing suits.

Joe Rogan 0:23 Dude, you look jacked.

Douglas Murray 0:24 Well, that's very kind. So do you.

Joe Rogan 0:25 You do.

Douglas Murray 0:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:26 But you look like, uh, like- like the pandemic's been... There's two different types of people during the pandemic, the people that gained weight and the people that got fit, and you look like a- a fit man.

Douglas Murray 0:34 I tr- I certainly tried not to gain weight during the pandemic.

Joe Rogan 0:36 Yeah, you look good.

Douglas Murray 0:37 Uh, very kind.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Congratulations on that.

Douglas Murray 0:38 Thank you, you too.

Joe Rogan 0:39 On holding it down. What does it feel like to be wandering the world now?

Douglas Murray 0:43 Uh, yeah, I mean, I sort of was a bit during the pandemic. Joe Rogan: Oh, you're a risk taker. Well, I- I- I don't like to say exactly, uh, what I did, but I did decide that after lockdown one in my native country of the UK, I wasn't going through that again.

Joe Rogan 0:58 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 0:59 I mean, uh, lockdowns are bad everywhere, but in the UK they just kept doing them.

Joe Rogan 1:03 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:03 And they started one of them in late December one year, and it was just like, like... You don't wanna spend January locked in your house and, you know, it's bad enough in the UK anyway.

Joe Rogan 1:15 How did the UK handle lockdowns in terms of the restrictions? Like, what did they do?

Douglas Murray 1:20 It was really strict.

Joe Rogan 1:21 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:21 Really strict. I mean, just terrible. Uh, and you, things like, you were only allowed out f- once a day from your house for one bit of physical exercise. One friend of mine called me one day and she said, uh, "Do you have, um, spies in your neighborhood?"

Joe Rogan 1:35 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:38 I said, I- I- (laughs) I s- I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "I- in my village we have people who, who inform." And I said, "Well, what does that look like?" She said, for instance, "Somebody, uh, leaned over the garden wall the other day and said to me, 'You are aware this is your second walk of the day?'"

Joe Rogan 1:51 Wow!

Douglas Murray 1:52 I know. And I said, I s- and she said, "The embarrassing thing is I know him." People were doing really crazy stuff like that. I thought it was horribly revealing and I- I- I loathed it and I got out. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:01 That's just a character issue that pops up whenever people have any kind of control. You know, that's the Stanford prison experiments where they- they found it like, like-

Douglas Murray 2:11 That's right.

Joe Rogan 2:11 ... almost immediately people-

Douglas Murray 2:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:13 ... just started ordering people around and treating-

Douglas Murray 2:14 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:14 ... people like shit.

Douglas Murray 2:15 Well, look at all those people who now love it. I mean they, I mean they- they were shouting at us for years.

Joe Rogan 2:19 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 2:20 A- and they, they wanna keep doing it.

Joe Rogan 2:21 Yes.

Douglas Murray 2:22 I- I was in the theater recently in New York, and I mean, they- they now, they now tr- treat you like you're going to Rikers Island, uh, when you've paid a f- you know, $100 to go and see a show.

Joe Rogan 2:31 Really?

Douglas Murray 2:31 They're already standing there, right, "Everyone l- give me, show your papers, show your da-da-da." And they say- say that, you think, "Whoa, we're... This isn't a great start to the evening," you know?

Joe Rogan 2:40 Right.

Douglas Murray 2:40 Um, I mean, this play better be funny. Uh, you know, and it- and it's, they're- they're doing that, and those people, I don't know, I don't know what we can do with them after this because they're gonna lose their meaning, um, because they've just had a whale of a time.

Joe Rogan 2:52 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 2:52 You know, all this sort of, "You haven't re-masked fast enough," those people.

Joe Rogan 2:56 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 2:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:57 Yeah, it's, uh, it- it became a way to communicate with people. It's like a- a standard way to do it, like you have to bark at someone who's not wearing their mask properly-

Douglas Murray 3:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:07 ... bark at someone with-

Douglas Murray 3:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:08 ... your, I can see your nose.

Douglas Murray 3:09 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:10 You know?

Douglas Murray 3:10 The one good thing in the UK h- was that we didn't have the- the crazy complete politicization we have in America of like ma... You know, if Donald Trump had been pro-mask-

Joe Rogan 3:19 Mm.

Douglas Murray 3:19 ... the other side would be anti and, you know, and that sort of thing.

Joe Rogan 3:22 Right, right, right.

Douglas Murray 3:22 So we didn't actually have that. And- and masking wasn't quite as strict, so if I forgot my mask and I was going into a shop, you know, I could easily like, I had several techniques, one was to pull my hat down a bit.

Joe Rogan 3:33 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 3:35 Another was I always felt if I walked a bit faster and frowned, that also kept COVID away.

Joe Rogan 3:39 Oh.

Douglas Murray 3:39 You know, that was a...

Joe Rogan 3:40 I was at the gym in the middle of the pandemic and there was a guy in the gym with a face shield on.

Douglas Murray 3:45 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:46 It was just this plastic thing, but you could reach under there...

Douglas Murray 3:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:50 ... and it's the same air. It's like it didn't make any sense.

Douglas Murray 3:54 Did you? Did you reach under there?

Joe Rogan 3:55 It-

Douglas Murray 3:56 Were you tempted?

Joe Rogan 3:56 No, but it- it to me-

Douglas Murray 3:57 Are these your big COVID-y hands?

Joe Rogan 3:59 It was like, I used to have this cat that would hide under like a table but her tail was sticking out.

Douglas Murray 4:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:06 I was like, "You're not hiding. You're right there. This is so silly." Like, she thought that she was hiding because her head was under there.

Douglas Murray 4:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:13 She just wasn't very body aware. That's what it felt like to me.

Douglas Murray 4:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:15 Like, this is not hiding.

Douglas Murray 4:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:17 You're not hiding from COVID, your hands go right in... There's this big space, it's just this plastic window in front of your face.

Douglas Murray 4:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:24 It doesn't make any sense at all.

Douglas Murray 4:25 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:26 But that was... It's like symbolic, like you had to have something on that showed that you're precautious.

Douglas Murray 4:32 For sure. You had a good pandemic.

Joe Rogan 4:34 It was a fun time. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 4:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:36 It was interesting.

Douglas Murray 4:38 And- and you've been, you've been very quiet of late. We haven't heard anything of you.

Joe Rogan 4:42 Really?

Douglas Murray 4:43 I'm being sarcastic.

Joe Rogan 4:44 Yeah, no, I mean, uh, basically you're doing the same thing.

Douglas Murray 4:46 You have... You have been put through the ringer, Joe.

Joe Rogan 4:49 It's, yeah, I definitely-

Douglas Murray 4:50 You have-

Joe Rogan 4:50 ... have put through the ringer. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 4:51 Since we last met. I mean-

Joe Rogan 4:52 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 4:52 ... you, they did a number on you.

Joe Rogan 4:55 They did.

Douglas Murray 4:56 Wow.

Joe Rogan 4:56 It's interesting.

Douglas Murray 4:57 Wow. I- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:58 But my subscriptions went up massively. That's what's crazy. During the height of it all, I gained two million subscribers.

Douglas Murray 5:05 I'm so pleased for you. I just, I'm- I'm pleased for everyone actually. I, uh, when I watched what they were doing to you, I just thought that- that, you know, as- as long as you survive this, something's gonna be okay in this world. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:16 Yeah, they went for it.

Douglas Murray 5:17 I really did feel that.

Joe Rogan 5:18 They went for it.

Douglas Murray 5:19 And because it didn't work-

Joe Rogan 5:20 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 5:21 ... like, it felt like everyone could sigh a bit of a breath.

Joe Rogan 5:25 Well, it's also, it's fortunate that the people that went for it were CNN, and they're just so untrustworthy.

Douglas Murray 5:31 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:31 And people know how biased they are and they know how socially weird their fucking anchors are, just these awkward non-relatable people.

Douglas Murray 5:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:44 That no one fe- like, if there's someone on TV and that per- I mean, pick a person, like Jon Stewart is a great relatable-

Douglas Murray 5:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:52 ... person who I find to be a- a brilliant guy, who's a kind person. If Jon Stewart thinks you're a piece of shit, I'm gonna listen.

Douglas Murray 5:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 5:59 You know? But if Brian Stelter doesn't like you-

Douglas Murray 6:03 I, I-

Joe Rogan 6:04 That doesn't mean anything to me.

Douglas Murray 6:05 I tr- I, one of my rules, I try and never be mean about people because of their appearances. But-

Joe Rogan 6:11 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 6:13 ... a friend of mine said to me the other day, "Do you know how old Brian Stelter is?" And I said, "I don't know, about 56 or something." He said, "Look it up on your phone." (laughs) He's like 34 or something.

Joe Rogan 6:24 Yeah. Something nuts. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 6:25 I couldn't stop laughing for the rest of the evening. I just couldn't stop laughing. It, it, I don't know what... Everything about the guy is strange. Everything about him.

Joe Rogan 6:34 Very strange. His pattern of communication is so strange. It's like, do you listen to other people?

Douglas Murray 6:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:41 They talk very differently than you.

Douglas Murray 6:43 Yes. He has that, "Hmm."

Joe Rogan 6:44 Yeah. And also, uh, Krystal Ball from, uh, Breaking Points was making fun of him the other day. She's like, "Why does he sit like this?"

Douglas Murray 6:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:51 'Cause you ever notice, he sits like this. Douglas, Douglas Murray has a book out. It's called The War on the West, and it's terrible.

Douglas Murray 6:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:00 The war on the we- is that really what's going on? My, one of my favorite moments was him with Bari Weiss, where Bari Weiss-

Douglas Murray 7:07 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:07 And he's like, "How has the world gone crazy?"

Douglas Murray 7:09 Oh, yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:10 And she just rattled off-

Douglas Murray 7:11 She was really good. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:12 ... one after another after another.

Douglas Murray 7:14 That's right.

Joe Rogan 7:15 Yeah. When you say silence is violence, when actual violence-

Douglas Murray 7:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:19 ... is violence, the world has gone crazy.

Douglas Murray 7:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:21 The world's gone mad.

Douglas Murray 7:22 Sure.

Joe Rogan 7:22 And she just rattled all these off.

Douglas Murray 7:24 We're speaking on this day where, uh, CNN-

Joe Rogan 7:26 Yeah, CNN+ went under.

Douglas Murray 7:28 ... minus just, just, just went under.

Joe Rogan 7:28 Or CNN minus. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 7:29 CNN (laughs) just, just went under.

Joe Rogan 7:31 They spent $300 million. They got 10,000 subscribers. Imagine the hubris of thinking that something that people don't want for free-

Douglas Murray 7:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:43 ... that you're gonna charge money for it.

Douglas Murray 7:45 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 7:46 We're gonna have a Jake Tapper book club.

Douglas Murray 7:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:49 Jake Tapper seems like a great guy. But I mean, I feel like I don't have to pay for his book club.

Douglas Murray 7:52 It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 7:53 I feel like you should put that on Twitter.

Douglas Murray 7:54 It's that thing. It's just, it's just not very good. I mean, the-

Joe Rogan 7:57 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 7:57 ... the ideological stuff aside, it's not very good. I watched CNN a little while ago, um, uh, maybe like early last year, I just spent a bit of time watching it. And everything in the coverage was horrible and inflammatory. And everything in the advert breaks-

Joe Rogan 8:11 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 8:11 ... were, were for like, um, adverts about the KKK's history in America. So like-

Joe Rogan 8:16 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 8:16 ... all you saw all the time was like burning crosses. And, and then that-

Joe Rogan 8:20 Right.

Douglas Murray 8:20 ... that was the relief from the f- from the interview stuff. It was just horrible to watch.

Joe Rogan 8:25 Isn't that a function of time, right? 'Cause if you're, if you're dealing with a show that's only an hour long and it's supposedly a news show, you kinda have to pay attention to only the bad things because you have to be aware-

Douglas Murray 8:36 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:36 ... of those bad things, 'cause those may be, maybe those bad things are something like, you know, Russia invading Ukraine.

Douglas Murray 8:40 Sure.

Joe Rogan 8:41 Something you actually have to pay attention to. But it's not a, it's not an accurate assessment of the world at large. Like there's so much great stuff going on. It's like most of the world is wonderful.

Douglas Murray 8:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 8:52 Most of the world is people getting along. Most interactions between people are fine.

Douglas Murray 8:56 Sure, sure. No, I mean, uh, um, there was a British philosopher some years ago who tried to start a website which only did good news. I felt really sorry for him because it was obviously gonna fail.

Joe Rogan 9:06 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 9:07 It was obv- it was a nice idea-

Joe Rogan 9:09 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 9:09 ... uh, but it was obviously gonna fail because people don't really just wanna hear that things are okay, you know?

Joe Rogan 9:15 Is there a problem with just the idea of having news, just news in that w- in that way? Like, where you're just going to something to see what's happening in the world, so it's almost always gonna be negative? Like there's no, there's no news channel of record that we're aware of ever that is focused on like really positive stories.

Douglas Murray 9:33 No. I mean, some local news used to do a bit of that, didn't they? I mean they-

Joe Rogan 9:36 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 9:36 ... occasionally you'd have a story. A nice, nice local story, a bit of heartwarming stuff, some-

Joe Rogan 9:39 Kitten up a tree gets rescued by the firemen, that kinda stuff.

Douglas Murray 9:41 Yeah. Someone opens a shop, that sort of thing. You know, it's like-

Joe Rogan 9:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 9:44 ... it wouldn't make the national news-

Joe Rogan 9:45 Right.

Douglas Murray 9:45 ... but it's nice local stuff.

Joe Rogan 9:47 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 9:47 I, uh, in, in my own lifetime everything seems to have gone wrong since 24 hour rolling news. I'm just sure of it. Like I saw, I saw it myself. It just-

Joe Rogan 9:54 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 9:54 ... it, because of the need of the news to develop the story. I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 9:58 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 9:58 ... used to get this, uh, when I started off in journalism. People would phone you and say, "Um, uh, would you be willing to come on and call for X now that Y has happened?" And then-

Joe Rogan 10:08 Wow.

Douglas Murray 10:08 ... so say, say somebody's ge- got into a scandal.

Joe Rogan 10:11 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 10:12 "Are you, uh, would you come on and argue that, uh, we should now, uh, call for an inquiry?"

Joe Rogan 10:17 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 10:17 And then you have people like, "Would you be willing to come on and call for the resignation of..." Say that, you know, it's enough is enough.

Joe Rogan 10:23 So they vet your opinions, you know?

Douglas Murray 10:24 Oh, yeah. Of course.

Joe Rogan 10:25 Interesting.

Douglas Murray 10:25 And, uh, I think things like, you know, Sky in the UK, I think the BBC, there, there's... Well, you know, they, they want it 'cause they think their job is to move the story along.

Joe Rogan 10:33 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 10:34 Because otherwise it's just them all day saying the same thing, which it kind of is.

Joe Rogan 10:38 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 10:38 But the other thing is, it's a very, it's just a very bad way to absorb news. I mean, I, I flick down a few news websites in the morning and that, like, I can get most of them and most of the news in like a minute maybe, um, an overview. And if I was watching like, uh, nightly news, that would take half an hour.

Joe Rogan 10:55 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 10:56 That's just not a good use of my time.

Joe Rogan 10:58 Well, even the way they handle debates or discussions. They have too many people.

Douglas Murray 11:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:04 They'll, they'll have a panel with four or five people and they're all talking over each other-

Douglas Murray 11:07 That's right.

Joe Rogan 11:07 ... and they're all trying to get a sound bite.

Douglas Murray 11:08 I always joke about that one that they do where they say, "Now here's an incredibly important issue and that's, it's a world important issue and that's why we're going to discuss it for three minutes."

Joe Rogan 11:18 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 11:19 "With five guests all of whom get 15 seconds."

Joe Rogan 11:23 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 11:23 You know? And it's, uh-

Joe Rogan 11:24 It's crazy.

Douglas Murray 11:25 ... well, that's not, that's not, that's not appropriate to the subject at hand.

Joe Rogan 11:28 It's terrible.

Douglas Murray 11:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:29 It's a terrible way to communicate.

Douglas Murray 11:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:31 It's, it's, it, there's no way you're ever gonna get into depth about something. No one knows when they can talk. So everyone's trying to like...

Douglas Murray 11:38 (laughs) And it's also-

Joe Rogan 11:40 Just jump in.

Douglas Murray 11:40 And that presumption, that presumption of, uh, the interviewer wanting to take the guest down.

Joe Rogan 11:47 Yes.

Douglas Murray 11:47 I mean, that's the, that's the worst one.

Joe Rogan 11:49 Yes.

Douglas Murray 11:50 That's the worst one. It is.

Joe Rogan 11:51 Well, that was a lot of people's reputation. Like, that interviewer would ask the tough questions and would prod you about your personal life and then get deep-

Douglas Murray 11:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:59 ... and make you uncomfortable. You know?

Douglas Murray 12:01 They throw you, throw you off center and all that sort of thing.

Joe Rogan 12:03 Yeah.... you know, they would try to, try to like trip you up.

Douglas Murray 12:06 My favorite used to be, uh, when people like, uh, when I was still allowed on NPR, which I was a couple of books ago, um-

Joe Rogan 12:14 You're not allowed on anymore?

Douglas Murray 12:15 Nah.

Joe Rogan 12:15 They reject you?

Douglas Murray 12:16 Apparently there was... Oh no. Well, uh, a couple of books ago I was still allowed on. Had a very good, uh, ding-dong as we'd call it in Britain, with the, uh, presenter. It was good, it was good. It was like 10, 15 minutes-

Joe Rogan 12:25 Which book was it where they cut you out? Was it-

Douglas Murray 12:27 Uh-

Joe Rogan 12:27 ... Islam and the Strangest Death in Europe?

Douglas Murray 12:28 The Strangest Death in Europe, they interviewed me on. And I remember because a friend of mine in America said I almost drove my car off the road (laughs) when they said you were coming on. I go, "No way."

Joe Rogan 12:37 Oh, wow.

Douglas Murray 12:38 Uh, and then Madness of Crowds, I was told actually by somebody, uh, who knew somebody on the inside that they, when I suggested that they should interview me about the madness of crowds, uh, the pers-, the person who suggested it almost lost her job.

Joe Rogan 12:51 Wow.

Douglas Murray 12:51 So it was like, it go, it went that fast. And it's happened that fast-

Joe Rogan 12:54 That's-

Douglas Murray 12:54 ... in my own life, in my own career. Um, but no, when, when you did used to sort of do NPR, there was always that, in that sort of media, there was always that sort of funny thing where the interviewer would interview about you about your book having not read it-

Joe Rogan 13:08 Hm.

Douglas Murray 13:08 ... and try to catch you out on it. (laughs) But-

Joe Rogan 13:12 (laughs) Having not read it.

Douglas Murray 13:12 What kind of-

Joe Rogan 13:13 So did they get questions that were, uh, prepared by the producers or something? Like how does-

Douglas Murray 13:17 Barely even that. It was usually an attempt to prove you were a liar.

Joe Rogan 13:22 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 13:22 So, a typical BBC interview would start with, "Um, so Douglas Barry, thank you so much for joining us this morning." Oh, you're clearly not that pleased, but, "Thank you so much for joining us this morning. And now you say in your latest book, bah." And then you'd say, "Well, I didn't quite say that." "Ah, so you're saying you didn't say that then." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:35 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 13:36 So by (laughs) by the second question, you're in like this horrible mire. And then about like 90 seconds later, you're chucked out.

Joe Rogan 13:44 Yes.

Douglas Murray 13:44 And that was a normal interview-

Joe Rogan 13:46 Oh, God.

Douglas Murray 13:46 ... until you and a few others came along.

Joe Rogan 13:48 Well, when the Cathy Newman Jordan Peterson interview-

Douglas Murray 13:51 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 13:52 ... went viral. "So what you're saying is..." He's like, "That's not what I'm saying at all."

Douglas Murray 13:56 She, um, she, after that interview, because I was one of the, one of the people who passes that around when that happened. I saw, I watched it live and then, and I, I realized this was a car crash for Cathy Newman, but, but Channel 4 thought it was great. They actually posted out a video of them mocking Jordan Peterson afterwards.

Joe Rogan 14:11 Oh, wow.

Douglas Murray 14:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:12 They thought it was good.

Douglas Murray 14:13 So their first thing was, it was good.

Joe Rogan 14:14 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 14:15 And I would, I tweeted something back saying, "Eh."

Joe Rogan 14:18 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 14:19 I don't know. There's another way to see this.

Joe Rogan 14:21 Get ready. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 14:23 And she then complained that, that I and others doing that had led to death threats against her.

Joe Rogan 14:31 Oh.

Douglas Murray 14:31 Which was, which, which then became the news, because within 24 hours it became poor Cathy Newman suffers death threats as a result of interview with alt-right hero, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Joe Rogan 14:42 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 14:42 And of course, all had happened was that, that like it turned out that what they thought was a, what they claimed to be a death threat was somebody wrote on YouTube, one person wrote on YouTube, "RIP Cathy Newman's career."

Joe Rogan 14:55 Isn't that amazing?

Douglas Murray 14:55 That is not a death threat.

Joe Rogan 14:56 That's amazing that-

Douglas Murray 14:57 I'm like, as a connoisseur of the genre.

Joe Rogan 15:02 (laughs) I'll show you a death threat.

Douglas Murray 15:04 I'll show you a death-

Joe Rogan 15:05 Let me just go through my Twitter feed real quick.

Douglas Murray 15:06 RIP, uh, um-

Joe Rogan 15:08 Cathy Newman's career?

Douglas Murray 15:08 ... Cathy, that is not a death-

Joe Rogan 15:09 That's not at all.

Douglas Murray 15:09 And they were like, "We have to call in security now." Because that, because of course that means that then you haven't done the bad thing.

Joe Rogan 15:16 Right.

Douglas Murray 15:16 You're the victim.

Joe Rogan 15:17 Right. She's a victim. Well, it's a great strategy.

Douglas Murray 15:19 It's a great strategy.

Joe Rogan 15:19 It's a great strategy for instantaneously becoming a victim. But that-

Douglas Murray 15:23 For sure.

Joe Rogan 15:23 That's quite cute that RIP Cathy Newman is a death threat. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 15:27 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how likely is it that that guy is gonna follow through on that?

Joe Rogan 15:30 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 15:30 I mean, it's...

Joe Rogan 15:31 There was one moment in the cr- in that interview though where she did show a sense of humor, 'cause he asked a question. She was asking about offensive, like why should you... I think it was like, why should you, uh, be allowed to offend people? He's like, "If you're allowed to talk and think, you have to risk being offensive."

Douglas Murray 15:46 That's right.

Joe Rogan 15:46 They had this conversation. And then, I forget what it is, he caught her. And she's in the moment, he goes-

Douglas Murray 15:51 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:51 ... "I got you, right?" And she goes, "Yes you did. It c- took quite a while, but you got me." And they were kind of like joking around about it.

Douglas Murray 15:56 That's right. 'Cause she was silent for a bit.

Joe Rogan 15:58 Yes.

Douglas Murray 15:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:58 She, but she, she went into that argument or that discussion with the goal of making it controversial, the goal of like trying to catch him and trying to press him. Like that's the thing. Instead of just having a conversation with someone, you don't know Jordan Peterson-

Douglas Murray 16:12 Hm.

Joe Rogan 16:12 ... you're meeting him for the first time, let's talk to him.

Douglas Murray 16:14 Well, by the way, that's one of the things that I mean, I've, you know, I know Jordan pretty well like you do, and, and I, uh, have such huge respect for him and admiration, as well as just, he's just such a great guy.

Joe Rogan 16:23 He's a great guy.

Douglas Murray 16:24 And one of the things I, I, I think I'll never get over about his, his, his career to date is that none of these people who tried to take him down ever spent any time trying to work out why he'd risen.

Joe Rogan 16:36 Right.

Douglas Murray 16:36 Like they never bothered.

Joe Rogan 16:38 Right.

Douglas Murray 16:38 And I just, I always felt like if somebody who I was very ideologically opposed to or really had a lot of differences with was like packing out arenas of young like cool, clever, smart people night after night-

Joe Rogan 16:53 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 16:54 ... I think I'd want to find out what they were onto.

Joe Rogan 16:56 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 16:57 Instead of just like not even bothering with that. And they never bothered with Jordan. None of those critics ever bothered to work out like, they must be onto something, otherwise this wouldn't be happening.

Joe Rogan 17:07 Well, there's an a- there's this narrative that gets bandied about in certain social circles, and the narrative with him was alt-right, anti-trans misogyny.

Douglas Murray 17:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:19 And it was this, this, this is who he is, and then you can look at his supporters and you see how his supporters attack people-

Douglas Murray 17:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:26 ... who criticize him, and this is who he is.

Douglas Murray 17:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:28 And that narrative, if you went against that narrative, you, you f- you faced a lot of blowback, so-

Douglas Murray 17:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:35 ... most people just accepted it. And I've, I've had these conversations with people, they go, "Oh God, Jordan Peterson." Like, tell me why you don't like him.

Douglas Murray 17:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:41 Like what is it? What did he say? What does...

Douglas Murray 17:42 That's the thing. It t- it does t- it... Even now, I mean, you can survive this like you did-

Joe Rogan 17:46 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 17:46 ... but even now these, these kind of hit jobs when they try them-

Joe Rogan 17:50 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 17:50 ... there is a, there is a residue for quite a long time afterwards.

Joe Rogan 17:53 Yes.

Douglas Murray 17:53 You know? Like I still, I still will speak to people occasionally who are not in the same line of business, the same line of work, and they will say like, um, "So do you think like JK Rowling is a transphobe?"

Joe Rogan 18:07 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 18:07 You know, you know, you know...

Joe Rogan 18:08 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 18:09 Uh, because it's, uh, there's just a slime trail after these attacks-

Joe Rogan 18:12 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 18:13 ... which-... you, you never completely clean up.

Joe Rogan 18:16 (clears throat) Right.

Douglas Murray 18:16 I don't know. I hope it is with y- I hope it is in your case, uh, cleaned up.

Joe Rogan 18:19 You, you, you clean up with people who know you. The fortunate situation for me is, uh, that I've been doing a podcast for 12 years-

Douglas Murray 18:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:28 ... and people hear me for hours and hours and hours every day.

Douglas Murray 18:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:31 And because of that, they know me. You can't hide for hours and hours every day. They know who you are.

Douglas Murray 18:36 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:36 So misrepresentations don't work.

Douglas Murray 18:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:39 Like, if somebody tried to tell me my best friend was a piece of shit, I'd be like, "What, what way?" You know, like-

Douglas Murray 18:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:43 ... "He does this and he does that." I'm like, "No he doesn't. I know him. I know him really well." Like-

Douglas Murray 18:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:46 ... "What, what are you saying?" It doesn't work. You know? But if it didn't, if I didn't know him and someone tried to say something terrible about him, I, I'd have to take that into consideration.

Douglas Murray 18:54 Sure.

Joe Rogan 18:54 So it probably worked on people who didn't like me already or people who would be more inclined to form a stereotype or something based on-

Douglas Murray 19:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 19:03 ... their appearance or... You know, I mean, I'm problematic. I, I, I host cage fights.

Douglas Murray 19:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:08 You know? I mean, that's one of my side jobs. I'm, I'm, I, I commentate and explain how people are beating the fuck out of each other.

Douglas Murray 19:14 Yeah. It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 19:15 That's, that's part of my job.

Douglas Murray 19:16 It's, it's great cover. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:18 It's... But it's a weird, it's a weird gig, you know, to also have and then to be talking to people like you-

Douglas Murray 19:23 Wow.

Joe Rogan 19:23 ... and political candidates and scientists and...

Douglas Murray 19:25 No, I, I hope what it is, you, you, that people have enough, you have enough work out there.

Joe Rogan 19:29 Yes.

Douglas Murray 19:29 Like Jordan had enough work out there-

Joe Rogan 19:31 Right.

Douglas Murray 19:31 ... to survive.

Joe Rogan 19:32 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 19:32 I do worry that somebody starting off-

Joe Rogan 19:35 Yeah, they could-

Douglas Murray 19:35 If, if anyone came for, for the s- if anyone comes for somebody who has not got a body of work behind them, yeah, that'd be-

Joe Rogan 19:40 Right.

Douglas Murray 19:41 ... hard, hard to survive.

Joe Rogan 19:42 Especially if you have a job and you get-

Douglas Murray 19:44 Oh, sure.

Joe Rogan 19:44 ... fired from that job. That's the big one. Like, if you're self-sufficient, if you have a podcast or something like... I mean, you might lose some advertisers, but hopefully if your show is still good, you'll still gain numbers and after a while, the residue will die down, then you'll get advertisers again.

Douglas Murray 19:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 19:59 I know people where that has happened, when they've lost advertisers d- due to being, air quotes, "canceled." But if you have a job, it's frightfully easy to fire someone.

Douglas Murray 20:09 I know. I know.

Joe Rogan 20:10 So easy.

Douglas Murray 20:11 All you've gotta do is be called into that fateful HR meeting-

Joe Rogan 20:14 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 20:14 ... and be told there's something you've done that's damaged the reputation of the com- company and you're like-

Joe Rogan 20:18 Or you've offended a certain number of people that work there. And, and-

Douglas Murray 20:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:22 ... the thing about-

Douglas Murray 20:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:23 ... work is people don't like working.

Douglas Murray 20:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:25 Right? They don't like being stuck in a cubicle. They don't like being stuck-

Douglas Murray 20:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:28 ... in an office. And they feel a certain innate sense... There's like a, just a, there's a level of frustration that's un- undeniable. And one thing that people do when they encounter low frustration is they lash out. And if they can lash out-

Douglas Murray 20:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:43 ... inside the rule book, like, "What's the rule book? I was offended, fuck him, get him fired." Like, they'll, they're just, they're just tense-

Douglas Murray 20:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:49 ... and they're just, you know, they have like a, a, a certain level of, uh, a lack of compassion already just because of the fact that they have a low level subtle torture that's being put on them every day just by-

Douglas Murray 21:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:02 ... having to show up there.

Douglas Murray 21:03 Or, or, or ven- vengefulness in-

Joe Rogan 21:05 Yes.

Douglas Murray 21:05 ... general, generally. It's like, it's, it's one of the, it's one of the nastiest-

Joe Rogan 21:08 Come in-

Douglas Murray 21:09 ... human instincts to try to get around.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Lack of charitable takes on things.

Douglas Murray 21:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:12 Just a lack of the ability to have a charitable view on, on whatever has gone on, t- you-

Douglas Murray 21:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:19 ... where you look at it in the worst-

Douglas Murray 21:20 That's right.

Joe Rogan 21:20 ... possible light.

Douglas Murray 21:21 That's right. Th- th- that's what, um, that's, that, that's what was clearly, I mean, it was being done to you, it's what's being done to lots of our mutual friends. Uh, it's, it's a deliberate attempt to not, not look at something in a charitable light.

Joe Rogan 21:32 Yeah. The fascinating thing about it though, it, it really does make those people look even less reliable. Like-

Douglas Murray 21:39 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I'd hope so. Although, you know, you do end up with this problem that everyone's got at the moment-

Joe Rogan 21:45 (clears throat)

Douglas Murray 21:45 ... which is then, y- you know, who, who people do go to to rely on.

Joe Rogan 21:48 (clears throat) Right.

Douglas Murray 21:49 And, I mean, you know, I know you've discussed this with other people.

Joe Rogan 21:50 Independent people is the only, the only thing that I, you know, that I count on Glenn Greenwald. I cl- I count on people like, uh, Crystal and Saagar from Breaking Points.

Douglas Murray 22:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:00 Matt Taibbi.

Douglas Murray 22:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:02 There's a few people-

Douglas Murray 22:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:03 ... that I'll count on for an honest take on world events.

Douglas Murray 22:07 Y-

Narrator 22:07 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 22:07 But there's not many. Kyle Kulinski. There's not many.

Douglas Murray 22:09 Even, even then, the problem is is that it doesn't cover, like, everything.

Joe Rogan 22:12 Right. Right.

Douglas Murray 22:13 Like, I mean, I, I have a f- I have some things I know a, a lot about, a few things I, that I know a lot about. Um, a number of things I know qu- a bit about. And just masses of stuff I don't know anything about.

Joe Rogan 22:24 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 22:24 And so obviously I, um, so my, my rule, wait, wait for this, my rule is not to talk about things I don't know about.

Joe Rogan 22:30 That's crazy.

Douglas Murray 22:31 I know, it's crazy. Uh, now the, the pro- problem is-

Joe Rogan 22:32 That's holding you back. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 22:35 (laughs) You should talk confidently about almost everything-

Joe Rogan 22:39 But-

Douglas Murray 22:39 ... and just-

Joe Rogan 22:39 ... but you know-

Douglas Murray 22:39 ... let the chips fall where they may.

Joe Rogan 22:42 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 22:43 (laughs) But, you know, the thing is, enormous number of people don't follow that last rule.

Joe Rogan 22:47 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 22:48 I mean, they actually do think that they have to know about everything. So it is like... And then, there's other reasons why the last couple years have been so terrible-

Joe Rogan 22:56 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 22:56 ... for so many people, uh, uh, you know, has been this thing of like, "Well, what do you think about pandemics and what do you think about vaccines and what do you think about ivermectin and what do you think about BLM and what do you think about, uh, Trump and what do you think about election integrity and what do you think about Afghanistan and then, and then, and then-

Joe Rogan 23:08 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 23:08 ... China and then, and Ukraine and, and also ivermectin and, and then like ah!"

Joe Rogan 23:13 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 23:13 And...

Joe Rogan 23:15 (laughs) And also ivermectin.

Douglas Murray 23:16 It's like, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 23:17 I don't know.

Douglas Murray 23:18 I... And very few people are willing to say, "It's just, that's not my, like, thing. I, I-"

Joe Rogan 23:24 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 23:25 "... I can't form a strong view on that."

Joe Rogan 23:27 It is interesting that you're expected to have deep knowledge about so many subjects.

Douglas Murray 23:33 Yeah. Well, it's-

Joe Rogan 23:34 Especially if you're publicly commenting on things.

Douglas Murray 23:37 I know. I mean, uh, I, various people... I, I, I, I didn't write anything very much about the pandemic because as I occasionally said to critics, uh, I just, I'd not spent any of my life w- writing about pandemics or thinking about it before.

Joe Rogan 23:52 Right.

Douglas Murray 23:52 And I should've done. Definitely, I mean, because it became a big thing.

Joe Rogan 23:56 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 23:57 (laughs) It would've been useful to have studied it. But, I mean, literally it was one of those things where if I was at, like, uh, some conference and there was a panel on pandemics, it was one of the ones you knew you could step out from.

Joe Rogan 24:07 Mm.

Douglas Murray 24:07 'Cause you, I kind of thought it was-

Joe Rogan 24:09 I'm not gonna contribute.

Douglas Murray 24:10 It's not, it's not-

Joe Rogan 24:10 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 24:10 ... what I know about. I can't... And, uh, so, so yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:14 (clears throat)

Douglas Murray 24:14 And I, I felt like... Then some people say, "I can't believe you didn't speak at that." And my, my thing's like, look, I, I wish, I wish I'd known now what I... Well, I wish I knew then what I know now.... but I didn't.

Joe Rogan 24:24 There's also-

Douglas Murray 24:25 And I wasn't gonna take a punt on it.

Joe Rogan 24:26 There's also this weird thing that when- whenever anything is going down, your silence is, is thought of as a negative.

Douglas Murray 24:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:35 Like, if you are not commenting on something-

Douglas Murray 24:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 24:37 ... like, (clears throat) I rarely read comments, but occasionally I accidentally read one. And, uh, I read one on my own Instagram. I was posting something, then I had to go back and edit it when I was editing it, and then my, I fucked up something, and I went back to make sure that it was okay. I read someone saying, like, "Why haven't you said anything about Ukraine?" And this was, like-

Douglas Murray 24:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:57 ... like one of the first weeks of the, the invasion. And I was like, "I don't know what's happening."

Douglas Murray 25:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:02 Like, what? You're mad that I'm not, like, oh, I know.

Douglas Murray 25:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:05 You know, you don't care. Like, you, you pretend to care. Like, I don't know what's happening.

Douglas Murray 25:09 I like the people who say, like, um, "You don't have the guts to talk about X," and they're, like-

Joe Rogan 25:15 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 25:15 ... some anonymous account. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:16 Yeah, exactly, they're an egg.

Douglas Murray 25:17 And you go like, "I can't believe you're not willing to..."

Joe Rogan 25:20 But that's just the m- masses of humans, right? It's like, you're focusing on one person with a, a logical argument. It's not logical.

Douglas Murray 25:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:27 Like, like, if you thought about it, like, why haven't you talked about Ukraine? Well, maybe they're considering it. Maybe they're looking at it and researching it-

Douglas Murray 25:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:35 ... and trying to find out what's going on, and... And in the case of that, like, Ukraine is a complicated issue, and you have to find the, like, what, what is the conflict? Like, why is this happening?

Douglas Murray 25:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:44 Like, where, is there natural resources that are at play? Like, what's going on here? It's a-

Douglas Murray 25:48 Sure.

Joe Rogan 25:48 ... it's a long process of trying to gather information if you've spent, like I have-

Douglas Murray 25:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:52 ... zero time thinking about-

Douglas Murray 25:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:54 ... Ukraine up until then.

Douglas Murray 25:55 Yeah, no, I, I, I think it's gonna be very important that people are able to say, "Look, I don't know. I'm, I'm thinking about this, I'm interested in it, and I'll, I'll let you know if I do form any view."

Joe Rogan 26:04 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 26:05 But, but this, this thing of, like, holding forth on everything and, like-

Joe Rogan 26:09 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 26:09 ... everyone moving from being COVID experts to Afghan war-

Joe Rogan 26:12 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 26:12 ... fall experts to Ukraine experts back to something else experts-

Joe Rogan 26:16 Like that.

Douglas Murray 26:16 ... to, you know, I-

Joe Rogan 26:16 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 26:17 ... I can't, I can't cope with that, and I, it's one of my, the self-imposed rules of my life that I try not to ever contribute to that noise.

Joe Rogan 26:25 Well, that's great because one of the things that people appreciate about you is your honesty, and, uh, that's a great way to reinforce that. Like, never talk about anything that you're not-

Douglas Murray 26:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:35 ... really sure of. You can, you can be completely, like, 'cause you-

Douglas Murray 26:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:40 ... you're in face, in the face of controversy and in the face of, like, extreme criticism. You're able to stand your ground and have logical discussions-

Douglas Murray 26:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:52 ... about pertinent issues. And some of them are these hot button topics that people just, they have these takes that you're supposed to accept and you're supposed to adopt-

Douglas Murray 27:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:02 ... and then you're supposed to broadcast that out to let everyone know-

Douglas Murray 27:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:04 ... that you're a good person and send that signal out so everybody-

Douglas Murray 27:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:07 ... knows that you're on the right team. And you, and you have always been the guy that's like, "Actually..."

Douglas Murray 27:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:13 And then... (laughs)

Douglas Murray 27:14 I don't, I, if my instinct kicks in and my brain kicks in and says, "No, I know that's not true."

Joe Rogan 27:20 Yeah, you'll say it.

Douglas Murray 27:21 I can't, I just can't not.

Joe Rogan 27:22 Thank God.

Douglas Murray 27:23 I kind of, I'd lead a lot quieter life if I was... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:26 (laughs) It's been very profitable.

Douglas Murray 27:28 But I just... Well, not that profitable. (laughs) Um, no, I mean, I, it is true. I, I sort of, I sort of have that feeling of, like, I couldn't look at myself in the morning if I hadn't have-

Joe Rogan 27:38 Yes.

Douglas Murray 27:38 ... if I, if I knew it was not true. That said, ag- again, I couldn't look at myself in the morning if I'd said something I, I knew not to be true, so-

Joe Rogan 27:44 Right.

Douglas Murray 27:45 ... so you just, it's not like you have a choice.

Joe Rogan 27:49 Yes. Yeah, I mean-

Douglas Murray 27:50 If you're wired this way, you know.

Joe Rogan 27:51 There's also this thing that people do where they're a prisoner to their initial suspicions or their initial ideas that they've adopted, and then when things change and the landscape is clearly not what they thought it was, they're not willing to bend.

Douglas Murray 28:04 Well, that's one, I, I was, I was writing about this recently, that there's a, there was a study a few years ago, I think, I can't remember if we talked about this before. There was a study at Harvard about what happens when people with a completely incorrect opinion meet the correct opinion.

Joe Rogan 28:14 Oh.

Douglas Murray 28:14 And I don't mean, like, as in, um, "The era is saying this, and you, you, you're saying that."

Joe Rogan 28:19 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 28:19 No, I mean, like, like, literally, I, I don't know, you think the world is flat, and you're introduced to the facts that show that the world is round. This study found that, that very disappointingly, (laughs) uh, you'd have hoped that people immediately had changed their mind. But, um, no, a vast, uh, number of people double down. Well, of course they do because-

Joe Rogan 28:39 (clears throat)

Douglas Murray 28:39 ... because we like to think that we're rational and reasonable people, and we, we're capable of that, but we're lots of other things as well. Like, we're not, we're not, we don't understand ourselves, we're not transparent to ourselves. And we are capable of reason and rationalism, but we're also capable of lack of humility, pride-

Joe Rogan 28:57 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 28:58 ... uh, um, you know, jealousy, all that sort of thing.

Joe Rogan 29:02 (clears throat)

Douglas Murray 29:02 And when it comes to sh- saying, "Actually, I got that wrong," or, "I've changed my mind on that," it requires, um, you, it requires you volunteering up a bit of your pride.

Joe Rogan 29:13 Yes.

Douglas Murray 29:13 And if, if, if you had a choice between those two things and you could get away with not having it hit on your pride, you kind of would-

Joe Rogan 29:19 Yes.

Douglas Murray 29:20 ... for most people. That's why they hold onto things they know are kind of indefensible still.

Joe Rogan 29:25 It's very unfortunate because it-

Douglas Murray 29:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:26 ... it ruins all your opinions after that, if people know that you're that guy that won't-

Douglas Murray 29:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:32 ... admit that you were incorrect.

Douglas Murray 29:34 There are some very prominent examples in, in-

Joe Rogan 29:36 A lot.

Douglas Murray 29:36 ... the United States and around the world.

Joe Rogan 29:38 Well, this pandemic really opened up that book, right? You got to see a lot of, like, initial suspicions that were proven incorrect, and people were still hanging onto them, this is-

Douglas Murray 29:47 I know, I... I was once told by a, um, policeman in Northern Ireland, "Never shut a door entirely."

Joe Rogan 29:55 Hmm.

Douglas Murray 29:55 And it's, it's a quite useful piece of advice, and it's one I've tried to keep in mind in the last couple of years as I've seen people going what, off what I regard as a reservation.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Yeah. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 30:07 I just try to be... You know, uh, never close the door entirely, but it's, it's, it's been tricky in the last couple of years.

Joe Rogan 30:15 Yes.

Douglas Murray 30:16 It's been very tricky.

Joe Rogan 30:17 Well, you, you learn about character when people encounter adversity. And this was the first time on a global scale where we encountered a universal enemy.... that was scary to some people and not as scary to others, so there was a debate on how to deal with it-

Douglas Murray 30:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:37 ... and how to react. And there was certain places that were just saying, "We're just gonna go business as usual and protect the-

Douglas Murray 30:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:44 ... the people that are in danger." And then there's other places going, "Fuck that. We're going full authoritarian." Like, we were talking about Singapore-

Douglas Murray 30:51 Sure.

Joe Rogan 30:51 ... earlier today. And I have a friend who's a trainer in Singapore.

Douglas Murray 30:54 Right.

Joe Rogan 30:54 He trains UFC fighters at the Performance Institute-

Douglas Murray 30:57 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:57 ... in Singapore. Totally locked down. Everyone's locked down. He caught COVID. He tested positive. He had no symptoms. He had to be, like, fully isolated in a quarantine facility-

Douglas Murray 31:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:06 ... for 12 days. Never had a symptom, nothing. Uh, all their athletes are... They have to work out by themselves, so they're doing solo workouts to prepare for fights. It's crazy. So, they're in rooms.

Douglas Murray 31:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:21 Like, they're quarantined in a-

Douglas Murray 31:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:23 ... like, a single room or an apartment. And they, they just have to, like, do pushups and sit-ups and shadow box, no sparring, no technique training. And then they're gonna have a cage fight soon.

Douglas Murray 31:34 This is, um... I mean, it is a pretty good way to drive people mad.

Joe Rogan 31:38 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 31:38 It's, it's about the best if you think about it, isn't it? Uh, they lock people up and isolate them completely.

Joe Rogan 31:43 Well, also in this case 'cause it's so illogical.

Douglas Murray 31:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Because you're talking about something with this new strain that's essentially like a cold.

Douglas Murray 31:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:50 Yes-

Douglas Murray 31:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:51 ... it's a c- contagious cold. And yes-

Douglas Murray 31:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:53 ... for some people who are immunocompromised, it can be still, still could be dangerous. But it's not nearly as dangerous as, like, say, Delta or what we thought, you know, the initial-

Douglas Murray 32:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 32:03 ... you know, the wave, the first wave, like...

Douglas Murray 32:05 It was so confusing, the whole thing, I thought, because, uh, after that first bit when you sort of thought, "Ah, okay, it's not what we thought it might first be."

Joe Rogan 32:13 Right.

Douglas Murray 32:14 Um, you know, there was that, there was that moment at the beginning of the pandemic which was almost, um... A friend of mine said, "It's almost romantic, isn't it?" And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, any of us could die at any moment." And I thought, "It's true." There's, there's like a certain kind of wow.

Joe Rogan 32:29 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 32:30 Like everything, the whole atmosphere changes in the world. Everything's put in a different perspective. Uh, and then that sort of moment of realizing it wasn't that, but it was hard to tell when that turn happened.

Joe Rogan 32:43 Mm.

Douglas Murray 32:43 And in the meantime, we were all, as I say, isolated. We lost all our social antennae. And then a whole set of crazy things happened which w- w- I mean, would derange large numbers of people. Um, you know, I mean, I think the fastest whiplash one was, uh, the movement from "Everybody stay in your houses" to "Everyone go out onto the streets and protest against racism."

Joe Rogan 33:06 (laughs) Yeah.

Douglas Murray 33:08 I mean, that was a, that was a, that was a whiplash. Even if, even if you didn't completely follow the logic of people who said, "The pandemic is the pandemic," and then who said, "No, racism is the pandemic," it was like, "Oh, it's like pandemic season."

Joe Rogan 33:20 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 33:20 We just get to find different pandemics, and what's the next one? Even if you didn't do that, um, you had the moment of watching and thinking, "Okay, hang on, thousands of people are out on the streets and they're packed-

Joe Rogan 33:32 Screaming.

Douglas Murray 33:33 ... in, screaming. And they're d- and they're not masked. And if this is what we're being told it is, this is gonna cause a massive spike."

Joe Rogan 33:43 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 33:43 And then that didn't happen. And so we were all like doubly, "Hmm."

Joe Rogan 33:47 "Hmm."

Douglas Murray 33:49 And, and I think that's one of the reasons why now, I mean, we're in this situation where, I mean, I don't know about you, but, I mean, among my friends, like, people, there are people who'd believe almost anything now. I mean, you know. My, my favorite are, are friends who I know have put illegal drugs in their body.

Joe Rogan 34:07 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 34:07 I don't want to shock you, Joe. I don't want to shock you. Friends who I know have put illegal substances in their body who have suddenly become, "All my body is a temple" about the vaccines.

Joe Rogan 34:15 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 34:16 "I am not having this."

Joe Rogan 34:18 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 34:18 "This hasn't been through enough tests." I go, "What?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:21 Right. I'm like-

Douglas Murray 34:22 I go, "Other than that-"

Joe Rogan 34:22 You're doing heroin. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 34:24 (fingers snapping) Fucking... How well tested is that?

Joe Rogan 34:29 (laughs) Yeah. Do you have a s- uh, one of those test kits they use at raves?

Douglas Murray 34:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:34 Like, what are you doing when you get your drugs...

Douglas Murray 34:35 "CDC never looked through this."

Joe Rogan 34:37 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 34:37 You know, it's like, "Eh."

Joe Rogan 34:38 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 34:39 So, I'm, I'm unsympathetic to some of that.

Joe Rogan 34:42 I am unsympathetic to some of that, too, but then I'm also... I know people that have had horrible-

Douglas Murray 34:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:47 ... adverse effects that people wanna bury their head in the sand about.

Douglas Murray 34:50 That's right.

Joe Rogan 34:50 And they wanna pretend that that's not a real thing.

Douglas Murray 34:52 Th- that's kind of the problem with everything, isn't it?

Joe Rogan 34:54 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 34:55 You, you, um... People don't want to admit that the vaccines aren't perfect, and they don't want to admit that they're not (laughs) as bad as-

Joe Rogan 35:02 Right.

Douglas Murray 35:03 There's a... It's the same thing with, like, you... It's really hard for people to hold the line of... American elections have, like, r- are not as reliable as a first world country's elections ought to be. Like, uh, y- America sends election observers around the world. It should be a bit better at doing it at home. And then at the other end, like, there is no election integrity in the United States.

Joe Rogan 35:26 Right.

Douglas Murray 35:27 People find it very hard to say, "We have problems with this, but it's probably not that."

Joe Rogan 35:31 I wish it was someone... I, I wish that this wasn't... Like, there... It's so ideological when it, when you, we deal with elec- election integrity. It's so ideological that, like, if it's Trump, Trump saying that he lost, no one's even gonna consider it. No one's even gonna g- you know, Trump saying that he shouldn't have lost, rather. No one's gonna consider whether or not a- anything he's saying is true. And so when you-

Douglas Murray 35:53 Sure.

Joe Rogan 35:53 I had a conversation with a friend of mine, and he said, "Do, do you think that they stole the election from him?" I go, "I have no information."

Douglas Murray 35:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:59 I go, "But I do think this. There was definitely not zero election fraud."

Douglas Murray 36:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:05 And I think in every election-

Douglas Murray 36:07 That's right.

Joe Rogan 36:07 ... there's some percentage of election fraud.

Douglas Murray 36:09 Abso- And the Democrats used to admit that.

Joe Rogan 36:11 Yes. Well, the John Kerry, uh, election.

Douglas Murray 36:13 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 36:13 It was a big one.

Douglas Murray 36:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:14 They, they were all saying that John Kerry got the election stolen from him.

Douglas Murray 36:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:18 Um, I think that there are very...... righteous people that they're, they're ideological zealots, and if they're working for, uh, a, you know, if they're working in some sort of a, an election poll place, and they can fuck with things-

Douglas Murray 36:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:36 ... and they can hide ballots. Or if they're-

Douglas Murray 36:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:38 ... in a very Democrat-heavy place, they might throw some of the ballots away, or if they're Repl-

Douglas Murray 36:43 Sure.

Joe Rogan 36:43 It can have an effect, but the question is like, how much of an effect does it have? How much-

Douglas Murray 36:47 It-

Joe Rogan 36:47 How much? Is it enough to-

Douglas Murray 36:48 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 36:49 ... actually swing an election?

Douglas Murray 36:49 Well, it'll be interesting to see in the-

Joe Rogan 36:50 To improve?

Douglas Murray 36:50 ... in the mid, in the midterms, because if the Republicans-

Joe Rogan 36:52 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 36:52 ... do win, then part of the Trump narrative does fall apart-

Joe Rogan 36:56 Right.

Douglas Murray 36:56 ... which, which is like, "Well, do they only fix elections every four years and not every two years?"

Joe Rogan 37:01 (laughs) Right, right.

Douglas Murray 37:02 And that's gonna be a problem for him.

Joe Rogan 37:04 It will, yeah.

Douglas Murray 37:05 But, uh, but no, I mean, I, I know, you know, I live in the States now, and I, uh, I find it, like the consequences to a society of having election after election which the losers don't think they lost-

Joe Rogan 37:17 Right.

Douglas Murray 37:17 ... is just devastating.

Joe Rogan 37:18 Well, it's a-

Douglas Murray 37:19 It's-

Joe Rogan 37:19 ... brilliant strategy if you're a foreign country and you wanna sow the seeds-

Douglas Murray 37:24 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:24 ... of despair.

Douglas Murray 37:26 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:26 And, and that's one of the things that they've proven that the Internet Research Agency in Russia does.

Douglas Murray 37:31 That's right.

Joe Rogan 37:32 And all these troll farms in Macedonia and, um, I'm sure in China and other countries as well, they're, they're doing things to exacerbate these arguments and to make sure the people...

Douglas Murray 37:42 They're exacerbating them, but they don't necessarily cause them, and that's, that's the thing-

Joe Rogan 37:45 Right.

Douglas Murray 37:46 ... that, that's, that's like where the, the, the, that's where some of the dispute lies. Um, I, I just think that, you know, if, if, in my own country of birth, in Britain, if, if we had had no elections for 20 years which the losers had agreed they'd lost in, that'd be pandemonium.

Joe Rogan 38:03 Mm.

Douglas Murray 38:03 Because it's not... Because I always say the thing with elections is it's not just that you win and you know you've won and that's great and you get to run the country, it's that if you've lost, you try to work out why you've lost.

Joe Rogan 38:13 Right.

Douglas Murray 38:13 So, like the Democrats wasted four years not working out why maybe they hadn't, like, put the most lovable candidate forward in 2016, and maybe, you know, maybe there was a reason they lost to Donald Trump. I mean, like, like-

Joe Rogan 38:28 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 38:28 ... if you actually had to work out why you'd lost to Donald Trump, you could do some really interesting soul-searching. Like what is it he taps into?

Joe Rogan 38:36 Right.

Douglas Murray 38:37 That would be really good for the Democrats to have done, and they didn't do it. And, and I worry about that on the Republican side, too, as, now. It's like, "Well, what was wrong with our campaign in 2020 that meant that we lost?" If you don't accept you did, you can't work that out, and so you just go round and round with the same bullshit.

Joe Rogan 38:54 Yeah, it's, it's very dangerous for the future-

Douglas Murray 38:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 38:58 ... because if, if no one thinks that the elections are real, if no one... If people think it's rigged and then less people participate in them, and then more people are into QAnon or-

Douglas Murray 39:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:09 ... in, in, in, uh, w- uh, you know, January 6th, that kind of shit.

Douglas Murray 39:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:13 Like that, that can exacerbate, could really fuel those fires of militias and all these people that think they're patriots, and-

Douglas Murray 39:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:22 That's a, there's a wild, unsophisticated group of people that are, they're, they're not very thoughtful about all this, they're not introspective, they don't take into consideration nuance or the, just the, the sheer volume of data you're dealing with when it comes to elections, when it comes to politics, and-

Douglas Murray 39:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:44 ... and all the factors, special interest groups and lobbies and all the... They don't think like that.

Douglas Murray 39:49 Mm.

Joe Rogan 39:49 They think good guys and bad guys. There's like a-

Douglas Murray 39:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:51 ... there's an unsophisticated group of people in this country that only think in terms of good and bad, and there's a lot of them. And, you know, they have a lot... I, I don't know if they're real, but there's a lot of these people that have like... When I see an American flag in someone's Twitter bio, I, uh, automatically assume they're a bot or they're one of these people.

Douglas Murray 40:09 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:09 Like either one of these people that just is like all in on good versus bad-

Douglas Murray 40:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:13 ... and you have this, like, very narrow bandwidth of, uh, understanding when it comes to just human psychology and the way-

Douglas Murray 40:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:22 ... the world works in terms of influence and politics.

Douglas Murray 40:25 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:27 Those people are susceptible to a guy like Trump. And that's one of the things that I think-

Douglas Murray 40:31 Sure.

Joe Rogan 40:31 ... people found very scary is that this cult of personality thing happens, and this one person-

Douglas Murray 40:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:37 ... gets all these rallying people. And you would see the people-

Douglas Murray 40:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:40 ... at his rallies, at his, at his, uh, his conventions and these things where he would do, and they were that, they were that person, they were that person who was re- very easily manipulated.

Douglas Murray 40:50 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:51 They have these ideals, almost like a film, like, uh, you know, good guys wear white hats. Like, you know, it's like-

Douglas Murray 40:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:56 ... they have this, like, very narrow view of stuff.

Douglas Murray 40:58 It's very sad w- I mean, it's very sad to see some of the people, obviously some of the people on January the 6th would just behave disgustingly and deserved what they got, but some don't deserve what they got.

Joe Rogan 41:07 No.

Douglas Murray 41:07 And, uh, are being treated really roughly. And, uh, uh, it's very sad seeing them when they do speak about it, because you know part of you is also like, "You were kinda willing to give your life for Donald Trump."

Joe Rogan 41:22 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 41:23 Like, that's... If... Jordan and I spoke after January the 6th and, and, um, it didn't go down very well with either of our followers or the s- or it wasn't the point. The point was partly to say, "Look, this is what's gone wrong." And, um, one of the conclusions that kind of we helped each other come to was if you'd have gone back five years in American public life and said, "In 2020 there's gonna be, um... You're not gonna be able to believe anyone in the country. All the media is polluted, all of the state institutions are polluted, all the ins- all the intelligence communities are polluted. The vice president is, is a traitor, uh, everyone is a traitor, and there's only one virtuous man in the republic."

Joe Rogan 42:08 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 42:08 (laughs) Joe Scustoe.

Joe Rogan 42:09 (laughs) It's the "you're fired" guy from The Apprentice.

Douglas Murray 42:13 You'd have said, "No, I can't see a scenario where that happens," but it did happen.And it did.

Joe Rogan 42:17 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 42:18 And, and, and, and again, the thing is, it happened for all those reasons. I mean, like, I still can't get over this thing of the, um, of Twitter and Facebook and co-silencing the New York Post. And, uh, the ... And what I can't get over most about it is the intelligence chiefs who signed the letter saying-

Joe Rogan 42:34 Yes.

Douglas Murray 42:35 ... that the story was Russian disinformation. 'Cause in my opinion, every single one of those intelligence chiefs should be, um, lose their pension. They should be, uh, you know, lose their reputations, whatever can happen. They should never ... You should never have members of the intelligence community becoming political actors like that, and they did. So that's why nobody trusts them.

Joe Rogan 42:56 And there seems n- to be no repercussions.

Douglas Murray 42:57 There's no repercussion. They-

Joe Rogan 42:59 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 43:00 This, this, whatever it was, 80 people from the NSA and the CIA and so on, they all gave their, their view about something they knew nothing about to help Joe Biden win the election. It's like, it's like ... That is totally corrupt.

Joe Rogan 43:10 Do you think that the strategy is to deny it until the news cycle has passed, you know? And that they denied it for ... It was a good solid year and a half, right?

Douglas Murray 43:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:19 And then they started admitting it.

Douglas Murray 43:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:22 Um, so y- y- in that year and a half, so many new issues have come to the forefront that it's almost impossible to give all of your attention to this Hunter Biden laptop story, because that lapstop- that laptop story was pertinent at the election time. Like, when-

Douglas Murray 43:38 Yes. That would have been when it would have hit.

Joe Rogan 43:40 Yes. And that would ... It would have been a giant issue, but because of the fact-

Douglas Murray 43:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:44 ... that they did lock it down, I mean, they really did manipulate the elections by doing that.

Douglas Murray 43:48 Yeah. That, that's the problem, is that when people say there was a manipulation, there was, at that level, among-

Joe Rogan 43:52 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 43:53 I mean, even if you don't want to get into everything else.

Joe Rogan 43:55 That's a big level.

Douglas Murray 43:55 Like, that's a big level. That's like all your tech platforms-

Joe Rogan 44:00 Right.

Douglas Murray 44:00 ... deciding to assist one candidate, and a massive amount of your intelligence community a- a- assisting that candidate in order to stop getting out the story of corruption in what is now the first family.

Joe Rogan 44:12 And it's being released by one of the oldest newspapers-

Douglas Murray 44:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:16 ... in America-

Douglas Murray 44:17 The oldest.

Joe Rogan 44:17 The New York Post.

Douglas Murray 44:17 Yes, I know. It's the New York Post. I- I don't-

Joe Rogan 44:18 It's incredible.

Douglas Murray 44:19 That, that's what I just can't get over. It's like, like, the N- the New York Post? You think you can do it to that?

Joe Rogan 44:24 Right.

Douglas Murray 44:25 Uh-

Joe Rogan 44:25 And they did.

Douglas Murray 44:25 And they did. And they did.

Joe Rogan 44:27 And the people that are doing it are these fucking woke 20-year-olds. That's what's crazy.

Douglas Murray 44:32 Yeah, I know. I know.

Joe Rogan 44:33 It's like the, the people that are in charge over at Twitter, like, who's running that? Were you ma- ... That made ... That was the decision? You made that decision to not allow the sharing of a story-

Douglas Murray 44:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:46 ... because you think it's gonna affect the r- the election in a way that you don't desire?

Douglas Murray 44:50 Right. Yeah. No, I-

Joe Rogan 44:51 That's crazy.

Douglas Murray 44:52 It's-

Joe Rogan 44:53 That should be illegal.

Douglas Murray 44:54 It should be illegal. There should have been a punishment for it.

Joe Rogan 44:56 Yes.

Douglas Murray 44:56 There should have been, like, serious repercussions. And they just ... They never are.

Joe Rogan 45:03 Not only that. Unfortunately, it set a precedent and it set a trend.

Douglas Murray 45:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:07 And the over ... If you look from whenever they first started banning people on Twitter and then i- instigating censorship. And Twitter's still not as bad as some platforms.

Douglas Murray 45:18 Do you think?

Joe Rogan 45:18 Yes.

Douglas Murray 45:18 Oh, I thought it was the worst.

Joe Rogan 45:20 Instagram's pretty fucking bad. Instagram's pretty bad, you know? They, they-

Douglas Murray 45:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:24 They suspend people's accounts-

Douglas Murray 45:26 Oh, I-

Joe Rogan 45:26 ... they shadow ban people for-

Douglas Murray 45:28 Yeah. There was a c- a case I had recently. The, uh, the trans, uh, swimmer, um-

Joe Rogan 45:32 Leah Thomas?

Douglas Murray 45:33 Leah Thomas.

Joe Rogan 45:34 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 45:34 Uh, um, Leah Thomas, when ... If you ... On ins- on Twitter, if you said, if you misgendered you got-

Joe Rogan 45:42 Yes.

Douglas Murray 45:42 ... you got suspended.

Joe Rogan 45:43 Deadnamed.

Douglas Murray 45:44 Dead- deadnamed.

Joe Rogan 45:44 You don't get suspended; you get banned.

Douglas Murray 45:46 What's her name? Leah Thomas was born ...

Joe Rogan 45:48 I don't know.

Douglas Murray 45:49 William Thomas.

Joe Rogan 45:50 Is that what it is?

Douglas Murray 45:50 I think, yeah. Yeah, 'cause I- I thought-

Joe Rogan 45:52 I don't even notice that that was a real thing.

Douglas Murray 45:54 It's born William Thomas-

Joe Rogan 45:55 I just only see her as Leah forever.

Douglas Murray 45:57 Of course you do.

Joe Rogan 45:58 Yes.

Douglas Murray 45:58 Oh, well, I, I thought that I could get myself banned from Twitter quite fast if I said the following. I was very tempted, but I just decided I need to keep my Twitter account. I kind of wanted to say, "Look, Leah Thomas isn't a woman. I can tell you actually, I think she's quite hot."

Joe Rogan 46:12 (laughs) well, we were trying-

Douglas Murray 46:14 That would have been-

Joe Rogan 46:14 ... to find out whether or not this is true, but she still prefers ladies and has a penis.

Douglas Murray 46:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 46:24 And has s- You know about the transgender inmate?

Douglas Murray 46:25 She definitely has a penis 'cause ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:27 You know the inmate story?

Douglas Murray 46:27 She definitely has a penis. Fucking hell. I just did it, didn't I?

Joe Rogan 46:30 And that was wild thing.

Douglas Murray 46:30 Oi.

Joe Rogan 46:30 Isn't it wild you have to say that?

Douglas Murray 46:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:32 You don't have to say that here, by the way.

Douglas Murray 46:33 Okay, thank you.

Joe Rogan 46:33 You can do whatever you want. He-

Douglas Murray 46:34 That hot dude. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:37 Yeah. (laughs) The hot swimmer who thinks he's a girl. It's, um ... It's very strange, um, standard why you can still have a functional penis and have sex with women-

Douglas Murray 46:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:48 ... and still be considered a woman-

Douglas Murray 46:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:50 ... in some people's eyes, like this transgender inmate that impregnated-

Douglas Murray 46:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 46:54 ... two women inmates.

Douglas Murray 46:56 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:56 But she's a she.

Douglas Murray 46:57 Yeah. Did you see ... Did you see the ... I, I wrote about this the other day. Did you see my f- my favorite one was (laughs) ... Goddamn it. I wish I could pull this up. Maybe you can.

Joe Rogan 47:04 We can.

Douglas Murray 47:05 Uh, i- i- it was in the, in the Metro newspaper in the UK. It was the same week as the, uh, female inmates impregnated in all female prison, right?

Joe Rogan 47:15 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 47:15 I had just woken up. Uh. What?

Joe Rogan 47:17 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 47:18 They do what these days? What? I was like, "Goddamn, when did they start getting that ability?"

Joe Rogan 47:24 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 47:24 And, and you know, the same week (laughs) , like, the day before, uh, there was this great story in the Metro in the UK. It can probably be on the screen. If you type in ... Wait for it. Uh, "sex toy wheelie bin woman."

Joe Rogan 47:45 Sex toy wheelie bin?

Douglas Murray 47:47 "Sex toy wheelie bin woman," and Metro. Um ... I bring you all of the, like, the, the scholarly articles.

Joe Rogan 47:55 This is the good stuff.

Douglas Murray 47:56 This is the good stuff. I'm really hoping we can get this. Um ... Oh. I don't know whether or not-

Joe Rogan 48:05 Got anything?

Douglas Murray 48:05 Oh, hey. Oh, here we go. Yay. Yay.

Joe Rogan 48:07 "Ex-soldier exposed her penis and used wheelie bin as sex toy in public." Oh, "exposed her penis."

Douglas Murray 48:15 I like the fact that's what you seized on. Uh, I mean, there's, uh, quite a lot going on.

Joe Rogan 48:19 Chloe?... her name is Chloe.

Douglas Murray 48:20 (chuckles) Chloe Thompson.

Joe Rogan 48:21 42, was caught rubbing herself in, on a public wheelie bin before using a sex toy on herself in an alleyway in Middlesbrough, Tes-... How do you say that?

Douglas Murray 48:32 T- T- side.

Joe Rogan 48:32 T-side.

Douglas Murray 48:32 Fine, fine place.

Joe Rogan 48:34 T- is it a shitty h- a shitty place?

Douglas Murray 48:35 I- I don't-

Joe Rogan 48:36 Shitty?

Douglas Murray 48:36 I don't wanna lose my Middlesbrough readers.

Joe Rogan 48:38 (laughs) On August 13th of last year, a couple shouted at her and she ran away.

Douglas Murray 48:43 Ah.

Joe Rogan 48:43 How many times are they gonna use female pronouns?

Douglas Murray 48:44 On the same day, she exposed herself on the street where she lives and thrust her hips into a fence. Basically, I mean, if you just... Uh, uh, once inside the house you exposed her bum, thrust... This is typically female behavior, as you can tell, Joe.

Joe Rogan 48:57 Yeah, that's, that's how girls act.

Douglas Murray 48:58 This is, I mean, look, it's unladylike. We can agree on that, but-

Joe Rogan 49:02 She exposed her bum and thrust against her window, which three children saw as they were in a car driving past. Tom-

Douglas Murray 49:09 That's "they" as in the children.

Joe Rogan 49:10 Yes.

Douglas Murray 49:11 Of course.

Joe Rogan 49:11 Tom (laughs) Yes.

Douglas Murray 49:11 It's very important to stress that.

Joe Rogan 49:13 Thompson was already on the sex offenders registry-

Douglas Murray 49:16 Mm.

Joe Rogan 49:16 ... before she came out as trans when she was legally named Andrew McNabb. Yeah.

Douglas Murray 49:21 You know, and it's like, it's like, I haven't even had my coffee yet and I'm reading about this, this, this-

Joe Rogan 49:26 Oh my God, look at all the offenses too. 17 convictions for 22 offenses, including sexually assaulting an underage girl.

Douglas Murray 49:34 2011. Are you just, but you just... (sighs) It's quite hard to read news like that on a daily basis and not feel like everything's falling apart.

Joe Rogan 49:42 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 49:42 You know? Uh-

Joe Rogan 49:43 But it's just strange that you are just allowed (snaps fingers) to change genders.

Douglas Murray 49:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:48 With a penis, with a, like, clear mental illness, history-

Douglas Murray 49:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 49:53 ... of assault, history of sexual assault. You can just say, "I'm a woman," and they put you in with women.

Douglas Murray 49:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:59 And you have a history of sexual assault and no one cares. It's like, it's very strange.

Douglas Murray 50:02 And you, when you just start to listen, you're like, I, I don't think that women often do this kinda stuff. I've never heard of a woman using a wheelie bin as a sex toy and waving her penis at it and trying to fuck a fence. I mean, it's...

Joe Rogan 50:13 She has to be that close to death.

Douglas Murray 50:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:15 Like that close, like she knows what a pistol tastes like.

Douglas Murray 50:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:18 She- she's that close and she's just-

Douglas Murray 50:22 So you've, you've heard of these cases?

Joe Rogan 50:24 There's... It's possible-

Douglas Murray 50:25 It's common.

Joe Rogan 50:25 ... that you can get a woman who's just like, "Ah!" You know, like just ready to go.

Douglas Murray 50:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:31 Ready to explode and then sh-

Douglas Murray 50:32 But otherwise, it's, it's a dude.

Joe Rogan 50:34 Otherwise, it's a dude.

Douglas Murray 50:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:35 And if it's a dude, it's fairly common. Like a guy doing something like that is, like-

Douglas Murray 50:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:38 ... not even outrageous. It's just like, "Oh."

Douglas Murray 50:39 I know. Wouldn't even make the news.

Joe Rogan 50:40 Yeah, it's like, "Oh, crazy homeless guy."

Douglas Murray 50:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:42 "He's out there trying to fuck a fence." That's normal, you know?

Douglas Murray 50:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:45 It's like, a woman doing that, you keep saying her, she-

Douglas Murray 50:47 I know.

Joe Rogan 50:48 ... her, she. You're saying, you're using female pronouns so often and it turns out he exposes a dick.

Douglas Murray 50:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:54 There's a penis involved. Like this is, we're talking not... You had the best take on this and I repeat it all the time. And you have said that in the, when a civilization is in a downward spiral, when it's the end of the civilization, they become obsessed with gender.

Douglas Murray 51:11 Well, I, I, I, yeah, I have said... uh, uh, I owe the insight to Camille Paglia, who I think made it first, um, that yes, that there's a sort of weird, um, fluidity issue. I think, I, I, I, I, I think it is, it is, um, I think it's a case, there are certain, there are certain, like, basic things which, if they start to fall apart, you can feel how everything else can as well.

Joe Rogan 51:33 Mm.

Douglas Murray 51:34 And, you know, like, sex is like the first thing we know. I mean, like, boys and girls.

Joe Rogan 51:41 Right.

Douglas Murray 51:41 Uh, it's not gender assigned at birth, it's not, uh, it's not like a bigoted doctor. It's just, like, there are boys and there are girls.

Joe Rogan 51:49 Right.

Douglas Murray 51:49 And, uh, tiny, tiny numbers of people who it's less easily determined, but that's not anything to do with trans. And, um, and yeah, and, and if you take that away, I think it is true that there is a sort of demoralization, a... Everything becomes murkier. As I say, just as like an average day's news becomes... You feel... I don't... I feel like almost anything can be, can be shoved on you if you, if you agree to that. And, or don't, or pretend you don't notice it, that's the thing.

Joe Rogan 52:23 Mm.

Douglas Murray 52:23 I think we talked about this before in relation to the communist era in Eastern Europe. The, the, that, where that's sort of part of the point that you, you... The humiliation of going along with things you know aren't true-

Joe Rogan 52:35 Mm.

Douglas Murray 52:35 ... ends up having an effect down the road because you just nod anything along.

Joe Rogan 52:41 Yeah. I have a friend who grew up Mormon, and one of the things she said to me once was really interesting. She said, uh, 'cause she left the church and she said, "I'm, I'm really susceptible to bullshit. It's a real problem."

Douglas Murray 52:53 Wow.

Joe Rogan 52:54 And so she started, like, she had gotten mixed up with some, like, yogi-type people and guru-type people.

Douglas Murray 53:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:02 And people that were running, like, these weird little sort of like self-help things that were very cult-like. And she goes, "I have a real problem, I'm very-"

Douglas Murray 53:09 Wow.

Joe Rogan 53:09 "... susceptible." She goes, "Because I, I grew up agreeing to things that are nonsensical and be- because of that, because I had just, like, given all of my..." You know, wh- when you, when you just like, all of your opinions are decided by a church and the church-

Douglas Murray 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:25 ... was written by a 14-year-old boy in 1820-

Douglas Murray 53:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:27 ... like, it's, it's kind of nuts.

Douglas Murray 53:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:29 And that-

Douglas Murray 53:30 He'd already had a conviction for fraud, I think.

Joe Rogan 53:32 Yeah. (laughs) He was already full of shit at 14.

Douglas Murray 53:35 (laughs) That was a giveaway.

Joe Rogan 53:37 Yeah, yeah.

Douglas Murray 53:37 That was a definite giveaway.

Joe Rogan 53:38 Well, it's, I mean, the, just if you read the tenets of the religion.

Douglas Murray 53:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:43 I mean, first of all, they're wonderful people. Mormons are some of the nicest.

Douglas Murray 53:45 Yeah, I agree. I agree. I don't like beating up on Mormons.

Joe Rogan 53:47 They're so nice.

Douglas Murray 53:48 Uh, because they're so nice.

Joe Rogan 53:49 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 53:49 And it's like, actually, if, if, if there were more Mormons-

Joe Rogan 53:51 Right.

Douglas Murray 53:52 ... it wouldn't be so bad, you know? Um...

Joe Rogan 53:54 If you could just take out the crazy-

Douglas Murray 53:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:56 ... you got a good religion.

Douglas Murray 53:57 Yeah. Um, I, uh... But wow, how much crazy?

Joe Rogan 54:01 Right.

Douglas Murray 54:01 Anyway, um, but-

Joe Rogan 54:02 But that's, it's sort of the same principle sort of applies to when people just accept, you know, like with w- wokeism, when you ac- accept these ideological givens that aren't logical, they don't make any sense.

Douglas Murray 54:13 I, I wonder if it's the same with societies. You know, I think that, uh, it's a thing like post-religious peoples, just because you've lost the religion doesn't mean you've lost the religious instinct.

Joe Rogan 54:23 Right.

Douglas Murray 54:24 You're still looking for-

Joe Rogan 54:25 It seems like that's an inherent part of being a person.

Douglas Murray 54:28 I agree. And I, and I, I don't think, I don't say it's bad, it's just, it is part of what we are. And, uh...... it seems to me very clear that, for instance, you know, you take Christianity out and other things will be put in.

Joe Rogan 54:41 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 54:41 Uh, and they don't even need to be identifiable religions.

Joe Rogan 54:44 Right.

Douglas Murray 54:45 Uh, I mean, our own age has decided in much of the West that there's this sort of form of, uh, watered-down spillover of Christianity which will become the sort of religion, which is the kind of diversity, inclusion, equity world, where you constantly struggle for greater justice.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Mm.

Douglas Murray 55:07 All of which is a sort of very watered-down version of a little bit of Christianity.

Joe Rogan 55:12 There's a clear genesis to that, too, in the, the, the woke world. There was a, a group at a p- certain point in time. Do you remember when the atheist movement had hit this Atheist Plus movement? Do you remember Atheism Plus?

Douglas Murray 55:25 What was that?

Joe Rogan 55:26 It was weird, and it was a bunch of these weird virtue-signaling male feminist types that were adding with atheism, adding a, a s- a group of core values.

Douglas Murray 55:39 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 55:40 About, you know, being anti-discrimination, anti-sexist, anti-racist-

Douglas Murray 55:46 Oh, I see. You mean their own Ten Commandments?

Joe Rogan 55:48 Yes, and so they, they called it Atheism Plus, and I remember watching this guy give this speech, this fucking boring speech on this s- s- so- sort of establishing this, this idea that because you don't have a religion-

Douglas Murray 56:05 Mm.

Joe Rogan 56:06 ... um, so we're gonna be atheists, but with plus we can establish sort of a moral framework.

Douglas Murray 56:11 Well, uh, y- it's totally understandable, uh, and a disaster, of course. At most, um-

Joe Rogan 56:17 Even if the, the ideas are good, it's like you're putting it in an ideology. You're-

Douglas Murray 56:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:22 ... you're creating a dogma. You're creating a-

Douglas Murray 56:24 All those new atheists who sort of started off in the 2000s like our friend Sam Harris and others, th- they, uh, in my experience, they all got a little bit nervous about the, what was on their shoulders. Christopher Hitchens certainly did. He started, I think, to, laterally in his life to get a little bit nervous about what was happening. Uh, I remember once asking him what, (laughs) what about... uh, and he, he said people were starting to ask him to officiate at their weddings.

Joe Rogan 56:50 Oof.

Douglas Murray 56:51 Yeah, and that was like a... he, he didn't say, uh, y- anything of what he said was wrong. He still obviously believed everything he believed, but, like, that's a slightly troubling place to be in because you start to sense people are wanting you to replace the vicar-

Joe Rogan 57:06 Mm.

Douglas Murray 57:06 ... or the priest.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Mm.

Douglas Murray 57:07 And that's, and that's not the point. Then you're in Life of Brian territory, aren't you? It's like, you know, "I want... you know, you should all think for yourselves." "Yes, we all think for ourselves." It's... it, it, it was always a problem of atheism was like it was an in- invitation to, to not do one thing.

Joe Rogan 57:22 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 57:22 But it didn't... but nothing follows from it as to how you should live your life. Uh, and, uh, it's the start of something. It's not by any means a beginning of a policy.

Joe Rogan 57:33 Do you think that's just an inherent thing about being a, a tribal primate, that we have this-

Douglas Murray 57:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:40 ... desire to have someone wiser, a leader, and then even better if you can have, like, a godlike figure who gives you a set of rules-

Douglas Murray 57:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 57:47 ... that you have to follow or there are horrendous consequences and it keeps everyone in line?

Douglas Murray 57:52 Yeah, absolutely. I, I always... um, in the 2000s, I started to think if somebody came along and declared prophethood at the moment, they could do quite well.

Joe Rogan 58:02 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 58:03 Uh, I mean, think of those, those hucksters on US television who still, still take money from people-

Joe Rogan 58:10 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 58:10 ... saying that they can only build the church and have their helicopter if you send in your dollars.

Joe Rogan 58:15 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 58:15 You know? Uh, uh, those people still exist. There's a guy who's still selling his, like, silver water that he blesses from the River Jordan or something. It comes out some hose in his garden-

Joe Rogan 58:25 (laughs) Really? Really?

Douglas Murray 58:25 ... in Texas, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:26 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 58:26 And there are people who've been busted repeatedly and they're still, uh, they're still selling their wares. Um, I, I, I, I always thought, yeah, if somebody actually made the prophet claim in our era, I think people would be w- surprised how many people would go along with it. It's what... it's w- the late George Steiner, um, described a phrase I love. He... The, the nostalgia for the absolute. I love that phrase, a nostalgia for the absolute. I think, I think a lot of people have it. I have it. We all have it-

Joe Rogan 58:55 Mm.

Douglas Murray 58:55 ... to some extent. And the question is whether you can avoid it taking you to places that, um, would demoralize you and lead you to a bad place.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Yeah, it's... I think if someone came along and had a really good cult, like a real solid-

Douglas Murray 59:13 Mm.

Joe Rogan 59:13 ... cult, like really welled out, well laid out-

Douglas Murray 59:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:16 ... be rational-

Douglas Murray 59:17 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 59:18 ... think for yourself, be kind-

Douglas Murray 59:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:20 ... examine all evidence, like, people would join into that and then it would-

Douglas Murray 59:24 Yeah. It always ends up with, like, massive orgy. Doesn't it?

Joe Rogan 59:27 Yes, it does. (laughs)

Douglas Murray 59:28 (laughs) It's like-

Joe Rogan 59:28 It always ends up with-

Douglas Murray 59:28 Like that-

Joe Rogan 59:29 ... "You gotta give me all your money or I'll go and fuck your wife."

Douglas Murray 59:30 You... exactly, like Wild, Wild Country.

Joe Rogan 59:32 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 59:32 It's like, "Oh, it's all about peace."

Joe Rogan 59:33 Yes.

Douglas Murray 59:33 And then it's like, "Nah, now you get a school of women." Um-

Joe Rogan 59:36 Wild, Wild Country is amazing.

Douglas Murray 59:38 I love that.

Joe Rogan 59:38 That documentary is so good.

Douglas Murray 59:39 I love that.

Joe Rogan 59:40 And that guy-

Douglas Murray 59:41 But-

Joe Rogan 59:41 ... Osho had some really interesting quotes.

Douglas Murray 59:43 You still see his, um, books-

Joe Rogan 59:44 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 59:44 ... in some places. Like, in the Netherlands, uh, uh, a little while ago, they, they had his books still in the bookshops. Oh, you could buy them on Apple-

Joe Rogan 59:51 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 59:51 ... on, uh, on, on the Apple Bookstore. I've read-

Joe Rogan 59:53 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 59:53 ... a couple of his books.

Joe Rogan 59:54 I do like that bit where he says, uh, he says in one of his speeches-

Douglas Murray 59:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:57 ... he says that people-

Douglas Murray 59:57 People-

Joe Rogan 59:58 ... are retarded.

Douglas Murray 1:00:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 (laughs) By the people, for the people-

Douglas Murray 1:00:03 By the people, of the people.

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 ... of the people. But the problem is the people are retarded.

Douglas Murray 1:00:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:10 It should be, "By the retarded, for the retarded."

Douglas Murray 1:00:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 It's like, oh my God.

Douglas Murray 1:00:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 A guru is saying that.

Douglas Murray 1:00:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 And it's something about the fact that he's dead now, and then-

Douglas Murray 1:00:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:21 ... like he said it decades ago, and it's like-

Douglas Murray 1:00:23 But we are-

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 ... very funny.

Douglas Murray 1:00:24 We are searching for, for, for things at the moment.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:00:27 And it seems very obvious to me. I mean, obviou- you know, what plenty of people have called the re- like, things like the religion of anti-racism and the religion of social justice, all that stuff.... they are all something to do, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 Yes.

Douglas Murray 1:00:38 Uh, at some very, very deep level. Like, you've, you've had your purpose today.

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 1:00:43 Like, you've had your five fruit and veg. You've had your meaning.

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 Yeah. Yeah, you've had your meaning. Y- you've- you're making a difference. And that's like, a lot of the people that complain online, and they think of themselves as activists because they're on Twitter. And they're s- they think they're shaping culture by just complaining about stuff online on Twitter. That seems to be-

Douglas Murray 1:01:00 Yeah, and they think that if they kick really hard and nastily-

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:01:04 ... that's really good 'cause it'll cause...

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:01:08 I- i- it'll cause a, a reaction. And, a- and, yeah, I'm, I'm fairly convinced that this is one of the ex- explanations for the really horrible behavior of a lot of people in our time. I mean, who, who do things in, in the name of goodness, which they should just be ashamed of.

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 Unquestionably, and also the fact that they don't do it in person. They're doing this thing-

Douglas Murray 1:01:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 They certainly don't do it in a one-on-one in person. They're doing this thing in the online world, where all the social clues have, uh, are, as- social cues, rather, have been eliminated. You're not experiencing a person's emotions when you say something cruel to them. You don't see it on their face-

Douglas Murray 1:01:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 ... that this normal social reaction to correct and...

Douglas Murray 1:01:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 You don't, you don't see it. You-

Douglas Murray 1:01:48 And you- you- you, I imagine, like, very rarely get anyone saying unpleasant to your face?

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 Never, almost never. Almost never. Most people are very friendly.

Douglas Murray 1:01:56 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:01:57 Exactly. I just-

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 But I'm very friendly. Like if they- even if they have a bad idea-

Douglas Murray 1:02:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 ... of who I am, if they say hi, I go, "Hi, how you doing?"

Douglas Murray 1:02:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 And then they're like-

Douglas Murray 1:02:05 You're not an asshole back to them. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 "I'm not mean. I'm not mean."

Douglas Murray 1:02:07 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 "I'm nice to everybody."

Douglas Murray 1:02:09 Like, when you take your wife and daughter to the zoo, I love that video. When you, uh, the video of you taking your wife and daughter to the zoo for the day and, um, and you saw nature in the raw.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:02:19 That, uh, pleased me so much, I'm sorry.

Joe Rogan 1:02:21 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:02:21 I couldn't stop laughing at that video. Was it the, the, that one of the monkeys climbed to the top of the pole and just, like, grabbed a seagull from the air and then started smashing its brains in.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Oh, yeah. That wasn't my video.

Douglas Murray 1:02:32 Oh, was that not your video? I thought that was your video.

Joe Rogan 1:02:33 No, that was a retweet of a video.

Douglas Murray 1:02:34 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 I thought you were talking about a different thing that I wrote years ago.

Douglas Murray 1:02:36 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 But, no, that was just someone-

Douglas Murray 1:02:39 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:39 ... was at a fucking zoo and a monkey climbed on a pole and snatched a seagull outta the sky and beat it to death. It's wi- that was a wild video, man.

Douglas Murray 1:02:49 That's like, I thought that was yo- yeah, that was yours, huh?

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 No, no, no, no, no.

Douglas Murray 1:02:52 I know, I know of something similar happening. It was at an English country fair a few years ago. Um, I went to visit some friends and, uh, they had three young children. You could tell the difference between the sexes here, between the boys' reactions and the girls' reactions. Uh, they had, had their local sort of country fair, which in England is a very nice affair. You, you have those ice cream stall and a cake stall and usually a competition for best rose and that sort of thing.

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 Mm-hmm.

Douglas Murray 1:03:12 And there was also a nature display of a, a hawk display. And this, uh, th- this country fair just went like horribly X-rated very fast, because the hawk, like, flew up from its, um, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 Perch?

Douglas Murray 1:03:26 Y- its perch on the arm of its, you know, guide. And, uh, sat in a tree, and then came zooming down and picked up the dog of a little old lady in the crowd (laughs) like a Chihuahua, I think, took it up into the cre- into the tree and ate it in front of the whole-

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Holy shit.

Douglas Murray 1:03:44 ... like, just sat there, like, ripping its intestines out, like, pulling-

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 Ugh.

Douglas Murray 1:03:48 And so everyone could just hear this dog screaming in the last moments of its life.

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 Ugh.

Douglas Murray 1:03:52 Its owner, of course, passed out on the floor. The, the hawk, the hawker, like, desperately trying to... And the whole country fair just like ev- all the children learned a lesson that day about nature, but it was a brutal way to learn it. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Oh, God.

Douglas Murray 1:04:06 Nature isn't everything you want it to be. It's, uh, not as fluffy as, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:04:10 Not with birds, man.

Douglas Murray 1:04:11 But the boy, it was very funny 'cause like the, the, the girl was like horrified and the boy's like, "Oh my God, it's so cool." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 I'd- I'd keep an eye on that boy.

Douglas Murray 1:04:19 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:19 You know? If a boy thinks a dog getting murdered in front of its owner when the lady blacks out-

Douglas Murray 1:04:25 No.

Narrator 1:04:25 He's getting sc-

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 ... and the dog's screaming for its life as its intestines are getting pulled out...

Douglas Murray 1:04:29 We're gonna read about that boy in the papers, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:33 Yeah. Birds. They don't, they don't deserve to be in those things anyway. Like-

Douglas Murray 1:04:36 No, course not.

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 ... all those zoos are fucking gross, man.

Douglas Murray 1:04:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 They're animal prisons.

Douglas Murray 1:04:40 Yeah, I don't like them.

Narrator 1:04:41 Me neither.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 For innocent animals. They did nothing wrong.

Douglas Murray 1:04:44 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:44 And we've got them in this... And the, the idea that like, it's good that you can go and see them.

Douglas Murray 1:04:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 I mean, that was great before video.

Douglas Murray 1:04:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 You know? Like-

Douglas Murray 1:04:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 It's crazy.

Douglas Murray 1:04:53 You don't need it now.

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 No, it's horrible. I went to a, a zoo once in Denver, and I'll never forget, they had this small primate cage. There was like a c- couple of different primates that were in s- separate cages. But the cage where this one monkey was in was no bigger than this room. And this monkey was screaming, just like in agony, like, "Waah!"

Douglas Murray 1:05:12 Oh, it's so horrible.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Just like mental illness. It's-

Douglas Murray 1:05:15 And they look so much like us.

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 So much like us, just fucking tortured.

Douglas Murray 1:05:19 It's horrible. It's horrible, that.

Joe Rogan 1:05:20 Just tortured.

Douglas Murray 1:05:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 Just trapped and tortured. It's a, it's a weird tradition that we have. And also that we take these animals and we eliminate all of the things that they like.

Douglas Murray 1:05:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 Like, you put big cats in a cage. What do big cats like to do? They like to kill shit.

Douglas Murray 1:05:37 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 How come they don't get to kill anything?

Douglas Murray 1:05:39 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 Like, you get to feed them, so you're getting to kill it, and you take it, that thrill away from them-

Douglas Murray 1:05:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 ... and you just give them meat?

Douglas Murray 1:05:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 Okay.

Douglas Murray 1:05:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 That's crazy.

Douglas Murray 1:05:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 You know? Ki- let them kill shit.

Douglas Murray 1:05:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 If you're gonna feed them a goat, like let a, let a goat in there.

Douglas Murray 1:05:53 Talking of red meat. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:05:56 You should talk about The War on the West. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:02 deep inhale ] What about it?

Douglas Murray 1:06:02 Have you read it?

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 No, I haven't.

Douglas Murray 1:06:03 Have you not?

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 No.

Douglas Murray 1:06:04 Oh, God. I was gonna test you.

Joe Rogan 1:06:05 I'm going to.

Douglas Murray 1:06:05 I was gonna test you on it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:07 Oh, were you going to?

Douglas Murray 1:06:07 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:07 I would never lie.

Douglas Murray 1:06:09 I'm so glad you didn't lie.

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 Oh my God, no.

Douglas Murray 1:06:11 Authors can always tell very easily if-

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 I'm sure.

Douglas Murray 1:06:15 Like whenever anyone pretends-

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Um...

Douglas Murray 1:06:16 ... to have read your book and you know they haven't, you're like, "This is not hard..."

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 I've read The Strange Death of Europe-

Douglas Murray 1:06:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:21 ... and I read Madness of the Crowds.

Douglas Murray 1:06:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 I will read that 100%.

Douglas Murray 1:06:24 I'm very pleased to hear it.

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 I love your work.

Douglas Murray 1:06:26 Well, thank you.

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 I'm very excited that you're out there, because I, like I said earlier, I think, um, it's, it's so important that someone's courageous in th- these times where there's certain taboo subjects or there's certain subjects that you're not allowed to objectively, uh, discuss.

Douglas Murray 1:06:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:41 You have to follow, like, these, uh, ideological patterns.

Douglas Murray 1:06:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:45 Or you get...... chastised.

Douglas Murray 1:06:48 Well, what I started to realize in recent years was that, I mea- th- that, that too many people relying really bad people a free pass on certain things.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 Mm.

Douglas Murray 1:06:55 And the one that started to really worry me was this thing, of like the, a man who calls himself Ibram X. Kendi and Robin DiAngelo of White Fragility frame. And these people-

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:07:07 ... they were, they started... I just noticed, they started saying things that were just wicked. I mean, like, really wicked things to say about groups of people. And, um, it's really started to worry me in recent years, because when, uh, if you were to tell any group of people that there was something wrong with them from birth, like something evil about them, you're, you're, you're setting them up for real problem in their lives. Like, uh, psychological problems, social problems, relationship problems, esteem problems, all sorts of things. When I started reading people like this, these people who called themselves anti-racists in the modern era, I just couldn't believe they were getting away with it. I mean, like, uh, did you ever read Robin DiAngelo's work?

Joe Rogan 1:07:56 I've read chapters of it.

Douglas Murray 1:07:58 There's a moment in her, um, in her breakthrough book, White Fragility, which sold half a million copies immediately after the death of George Floyd-

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Mm.

Douglas Murray 1:08:07 ... um, there's a moment in that book where she says, "There is no good form of being white. No good form of being white."

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 (laughs)

Douglas Murray 1:08:16 "And it's inescapable."

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 (laughs) Isn't she white?

Douglas Murray 1:08:20 She's white.

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:08:21 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 That's-

Douglas Murray 1:08:22 I mean, she also knows how to make-

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:08:24 Yeah. But-

Joe Rogan 1:08:25 Yeah.

Douglas Murray 1:08:25 ... she, uh, uh, um, she... I, when I read, read it, I was like, "Wow." Um, and, uh, and I started to get really worried about this, because this started to pump itself into the system very deep, particularly after Floyd. Um, like, departments across the US, departments of government across the US started to teach this stuff. Schools started to teach versions of this stuff. Uh, universities obviously did. And it was sort of out there in the popular culture. And I started to think, "This is, this, this is gonna lead somewhere really dark if there isn't a stop put to it." Because you couldn't do that, you couldn't do that and shouldn't do it about any group of people. But it would... It's a wild thing to attempt to do against majority populations. I mean, like, you, I don't think it's possible to say to a, a minority group in a country, "Because of your skin color, you're evil, and you can never get out of your skin color," and think they're gonna love you. But to do it to a majority? That's like-

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 But the majority-

Douglas Murray 1:09:31 That can't work.

Joe Rogan 1:09:31 ... that feels guilt, so you take advantage of the fact that there is this white guilt out there, 'cause it's recognition that this country was, in fact, founded with slavery. That was-

Douglas Murray 1:09:40 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:09:40 ... a major part of this country.

Douglas Murray 1:09:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:43 And that, in fact, laws were set in place after slavery was over that completely disenfranchised Black people-

Douglas Murray 1:09:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 ... locked them into terrible neighborhoods, redlined, so that they couldn't buy-

Douglas Murray 1:09:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:55 ... homes in the... So there's, there's all this reality to the-

Douglas Murray 1:09:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:58 ... racism of the past, and then the racism, the current racism. But then, to try to paint it with this insane broad brush-

Douglas Murray 1:10:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:10:07 ... that says everybody-

Douglas Murray 1:10:08 Well, I- Ibram X. Kendi says, "The answer to past,