Joe Rogan Experience #1830 - Meghan Murphy

Narrator 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Hello, Meghan.

Meghan Murphy 0:14 Hi.

Joe Rogan 0:14 What's happening? Good to see you.

Meghan Murphy 0:16 Good to see you also.

Joe Rogan 0:18 What's crackalackin'?

Meghan Murphy 0:19 Um, well-

Joe Rogan 0:20 Welcome to America.

Meghan Murphy 0:20 ... are you ready to get wasted? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:22 Yeah, you and this fuck-

Meghan Murphy 0:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:25 You and this fucking vile beverage that you bring.

Meghan Murphy 0:29 I brought, Lord-

Joe Rogan 0:31 I've-

Meghan Murphy 0:31 I was like, "Joe is gonna actually be mad when he sees what I brought."

Joe Rogan 0:34 So explain to people what this is.

Meghan Murphy 0:36 Okay. I brought raicilla. Uh, Joe Rogan, this man right here, he talks about raicilla. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:42 I talk about it (laughs) 'cause you gave it to me-

Meghan Murphy 0:44 All the time.

Joe Rogan 0:45 ... and I, I serve it to people.

Meghan Murphy 0:47 You never stop bitching about raicilla on the podcast. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:49 Well, I give it to people, and every time I give it to people they're like, "Jesus." (yawns)

Meghan Murphy 0:54 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 0:54 It's one of the rare alcohols that we've had in studio that we haven't burned through.

Narrator 0:58 Mm.

Meghan Murphy 0:59 Yeah, and I noticed you didn't give it to Snoop.

Joe Rogan 1:02 No.

Meghan Murphy 1:02 Squandered opportunity. I was like, 'cause you were like, "Yeah, you don't want that." And I was like-

Joe Rogan 1:06 I don't think Snoop wants that.

Meghan Murphy 1:07 Maybe he does want it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08 I can't take a chance with Snoop.

Meghan Murphy 1:10 Okay, so raicilla is moonshine from the state of Jalisco, which is where I live, in Mexico. And it's similar to mezcal, so it comes from the agave plant, and that is the end of my explanation because after that I am confused.

Joe Rogan 1:24 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 1:24 So, (laughs) but-

Joe Rogan 1:25 I don't know why you like it. Like-

Meghan Murphy 1:26 I don't know why either.

Joe Rogan 1:28 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 1:28 Like, I have no, I'm not, like I, I don't love most booze. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:33 Really?

Meghan Murphy 1:33 I love drinking, but like, I love whiskey, I love scotch, I love raicilla. I don't like-

Joe Rogan 1:38 So you like strong stuff?

Meghan Murphy 1:39 I don't like tequila-

Joe Rogan 1:40 Okay.

Meghan Murphy 1:40 ... I don't like vodka.

Joe Rogan 1:41 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 1:41 I don't like rum.

Joe Rogan 1:43 Yeah, you're a strong drinker. Well, obviously. If you like raicilla, you, you are a strong drinker. You like, you like stuff you feel.

Meghan Murphy 1:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:50 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 1:51 But I mean, what I, I, I can't explain it. Like I can't explain why I don't like tequila but I like raicilla, which-

Joe Rogan 1:57 You don't have to explain it.

Meghan Murphy 1:57 ... everybody else hates. Okay, thank you.

Joe Rogan 1:59 You don't have to explain shit.

Meghan Murphy 2:00 You're like, "Meghan, just do you."

Joe Rogan 2:02 You live your life-

Meghan Murphy 2:02 You do you, girl.

Joe Rogan 2:03 ... and you like what you like.

Meghan Murphy 2:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:04 Yeah, exactly.

Meghan Murphy 2:05 So, okay, so what I brought, this is actual moonshine. It's n- it didn't come in this bottle. My friend put it in this bottle for me. But she actually bought it from on the top of a mountain in Yelapa from a guy-

Joe Rogan 2:20 Have you tested it yet?

Meghan Murphy 2:20 I've tried it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:21 So it's okay?

Meghan Murphy 2:22 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:24 No?

Meghan Murphy 2:24 It's not gonna kill y- I, I mean-

Joe Rogan 2:26 Yeah, I mean does it kill you?

Meghan Murphy 2:27 No, no, no, it's good.

Joe Rogan 2:29 Doesn't kill you? Okay.

Meghan Murphy 2:29 I mean, they've been making this stuff for centuries, like-

Joe Rogan 2:31 So they put it in that bottle, did you put the label on it?

Meghan Murphy 2:33 They sell it out of two liter Coke bottles.

Joe Rogan 2:35 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 2:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:37 I feel like that's the one we should try.

Meghan Murphy 2:39 This is what th- this came out of a two liter, like, Coke bottle.

Joe Rogan 2:41 Okay.

Meghan Murphy 2:41 Yeah, we have to try it.

Joe Rogan 2:42 We should definitely try that one. That's the one we gotta try.

Meghan Murphy 2:43 I, I wanna look at, I wanna look at your face.

Joe Rogan 2:45 Okay. (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 2:46 Are we putting it in mugs?

Joe Rogan 2:47 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 2:48 Okay.

Joe Rogan 2:48 Why not? I mean, fuck it. This is not formal.

Meghan Murphy 2:50 No, we're not-

Joe Rogan 2:51 So just put it in these coffee mugs.

Meghan Murphy 2:52 ... professionals here.

Joe Rogan 2:52 'Cause I'm probably gonna pour coffee in it later and just go, "Ugh."

Meghan Murphy 2:55 Dude, you're gonna hate this, I promise.

Joe Rogan 2:58 Okay.

Meghan Murphy 2:58 I don't, and then after, I'm gonna give you some that you might actually like, and if you don't like it then I give up on you forever.

Joe Rogan 3:03 Oh, no.

Meghan Murphy 3:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:05 I l- I'm a whiskey guy.

Meghan Murphy 3:06 Then we're not friends anymore.

Joe Rogan 3:08 I like whiskey. I like it.

Meghan Murphy 3:08 I love whiskey too.

Joe Rogan 3:09 Buffalo Trace.

Meghan Murphy 3:09 Always.

Joe Rogan 3:10 That's my kind of shit.

Meghan Murphy 3:11 Okay.

Joe Rogan 3:11 Cheers, my friend.

Meghan Murphy 3:12 Cheers.

Joe Rogan 3:12 Always good to see you.

Meghan Murphy 3:12 Nice to see you again.

Joe Rogan 3:13 Very good to see you.

Meghan Murphy 3:14 Okay.

Joe Rogan 3:20 (laughs) Oh, boy, dude.

Meghan Murphy 3:22 (laughs) I just got raicilla all over my face.

Joe Rogan 3:24 (exhales)

Meghan Murphy 3:24 (laughs) That's what happens when you drink it out of mugs, you just-

Joe Rogan 3:27 That tastes like it came from a fucking Coke bottle.

Meghan Murphy 3:30 Do you like it at all?

Joe Rogan 3:31 (sighs) Oh.

Meghan Murphy 3:31 Like I don't know, I kind of like it.

Narrator 3:33 Well, obviously. (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 3:37 You're like, "I mean ..." Let me tell you, like ...

Joe Rogan 3:44 Well, Meghan, (sighs) you're a strong cup of coffee as a human. You know? And it makes sense that you would like a strong beverage.

Meghan Murphy 3:50 Okay.

Joe Rogan 3:51 I get it.

Meghan Murphy 3:51 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 3:52 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 3:52 That, that actually makes sense. I appreciate that.

Joe Rogan 3:54 Yeah, makes sense. You, you know.

Meghan Murphy 3:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:56 It fits you.

Meghan Murphy 3:57 This, and this is like, it's either 47 or 48 proof. And the way that they test the proof-

Joe Rogan 4:03 They ain't testing shit. (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 4:04 ... is by, she showed me a video. My friend showed me a video, and the, the guy who was making it put it in this little thing and then blew bubbles with a straw, and then he (laughs) looks at the bubbles, like he looks at the size of the bubbles and sees, like, how fast they pop, and that's how you know that-

Joe Rogan 4:21 Oh, super accurate.

Meghan Murphy 4:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:24 Is she a snake charm as well? Like what the fuck?

Meghan Murphy 4:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:29 Oh.

Meghan Murphy 4:29 Um, this one I bought from the bar across the street from my house-

Joe Rogan 4:33 Oh.

Meghan Murphy 4:33 ... because I really, I really loved, I was like, "This is so good."

Joe Rogan 4:37 Yeah?

Meghan Murphy 4:37 And I couldn't find it anywhere. Like I couldn't buy it anywhere, so I just bought it off of them.

Joe Rogan 4:42 So is that a popular beverage with Mexicans or is it a popular beverage with the expats?

Meghan Murphy 4:47 Uh, more like Mexicans. Like for example-

Joe Rogan 4:50 This is beautiful.

Meghan Murphy 4:51 Yeah, this one is beautiful.

Joe Rogan 4:52 I love the little...

Meghan Murphy 4:53 You might, this one actually to me tastes more like a mezcal. Do you like mezcal?

Joe Rogan 4:57 Yeah, I do.

Meghan Murphy 4:58 Like this one is smokier, um, so you might like this one.

Joe Rogan 5:03 I like this one.

Meghan Murphy 5:03 But I also like the bottle a lot more.

Joe Rogan 5:04 I like how the bottle comes with that little necklace.

Meghan Murphy 5:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:07 Pretty cool.

Meghan Murphy 5:07 You can wear that if you want.

Joe Rogan 5:08 No.

Meghan Murphy 5:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:09 It's not my style. But it is Pride Month, it would fit for Pride Month.

Meghan Murphy 5:13 Perfect.

Joe Rogan 5:13 There you go.

Meghan Murphy 5:13 Yeah. You can represent-

Joe Rogan 5:16 Represent.

Meghan Murphy 5:16 ... your LGBTQ, um, allies or whatever.

Joe Rogan 5:20 Or leprechauns.

Meghan Murphy 5:21 Or leprechauns, yeah. (laughs) Whatever. Um, but yeah, like I mean, Mexicans, this kind of stuff they only sell to locals. Like they don't sell this in stores, they sell it to the locals who live in that area.

Joe Rogan 5:34 Right.

Meghan Murphy 5:35 So yeah, Mexicans like it. I mean, some Mexicans. Most people that I know think I'm a crazy person also. Like in Mexico, they're like, "You're the only person who buys this, Meghan." (laughs) "Like you burn through all of our raicilla and nobody else buys raicilla." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:52 Is that mostly what you drink down there?

Meghan Murphy 5:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:55 Wow.

Meghan Murphy 5:56 Like I drink red wine with dinner-

Joe Rogan 5:58 Yeah, me too.

Meghan Murphy 5:58 ... or at home, but if I go out, I drink raicilla.... sometimes-

Joe Rogan 6:01 Can you get that? Have you ever tried to get it at a bar in the States? Like, have you ever gone to Austin and asked for Raicilla?

Meghan Murphy 6:07 No. I don't think they would know what that is.

Joe Rogan 6:09 Mm. Maybe not.

Meghan Murphy 6:11 Ah. Maybe I'll try.

Joe Rogan 6:11 Try it tonight. Give it a shot.

Meghan Murphy 6:13 Okay.

Joe Rogan 6:14 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 6:14 I'm gonna try to not get too wasted tonight 'cause I have an event tomorrow.

Joe Rogan 6:18 Oh, what's your event?

Meghan Murphy 6:19 It's called Women Leaving the Left. Um ...

Joe Rogan 6:22 Wow.

Meghan Murphy 6:22 We're, uh, it's a panel of women, females, adult human females, um, and it's at the Austin Central Library on West Cesar Chavez.

Joe Rogan 6:36 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 6:36 Did I say that right? Yeah, 710. Um, and it's basically, like, I've, like, I've been writing a lot lately about ... Sorry, I'm just, like, kinda launching into my spiel or whatever. I've been writing a lot lately about, like, my political transformation, I suppose you could call it. I wa- I mean, I was super left wing for my whole life. Like, from when I was a kid. I grew up in, like, a Marxist household.

Joe Rogan 7:02 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 7:03 So I was, like, a socialist and a feminist (clears throat) my whole life, until maybe, I don't know, two or three years ago, I started feeling like I wasn't super into the labels anymore and definitely started feeling, uh, becoming very critical of the left. And not just the way the left had treated me, which has been abhorrent, um, but ideologically, I think that there's problems. It's not, you know, it's not-

Joe Rogan 7:38 Like, what specifically bothers you?

Meghan Murphy 7:40 Well, I mean, I, I guess, so part of the thing that happened was that I realized that attaching yourself to any movement and any ideology limits critical thought and independent thought. Um ...

Joe Rogan 7:55 Yes.

Meghan Murphy 7:56 You get trapped into this box, and the people that you're allied with in these movements also trap you into that box.

Joe Rogan 8:03 Right.

Meghan Murphy 8:04 And I am a writer, and that's, you know, m- I'm a thinker, you know. Like, I want to learn, I want to know, and I want the freedom to change my mind about things. Um, I want the h- the freedom to explore new ideas, and I want the freedom to talk to, you know, I also do, do podcasts, and I wanna be able to, I, part of the reason I do it is 'cause it's interesting. Like, it's a great way to learn. I'm sure-

Joe Rogan 8:30 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 8:30 ... you know that, right? Like ...

Joe Rogan 8:31 Yeah, sure.

Meghan Murphy 8:32 I've learned so much just from the opportunity to talk to so many different kinds of people and ask them questions about things-

Joe Rogan 8:40 Oh, yeah.

Meghan Murphy 8:40 ... that, that I don't know about.

Joe Rogan 8:42 It's an amazing resource.

Meghan Murphy 8:43 It's amazing.

Joe Rogan 8:44 I mean, running a podcast and being able to have conversations with people, it's changed who I am. I mean, if you go back-

Meghan Murphy 8:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:49 ... uh, 12 years ago, to when I started the podcast, what I know and the way I talk and the way I think about things, it's very different.

Meghan Murphy 8:57 Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure that that played, like, a large role in my changing my mind about all sorts of things.

Joe Rogan 9:07 Right.

Meghan Murphy 9:07 Because you're exposed to new ideas and different perspectives and people who come from different backgrounds. And, I mean, I th- I just feel like so many people on the left and so many people in feminism are siloed. Um, and that is probably true about the right to a certain extent. It's just that I'm much less familiar with the right 'cause I've never been involved with the right before.

Joe Rogan 9:32 Right.

Meghan Murphy 9:33 But I feel like on the left and in feminism, they're around people who only agree with them, who only see things their way, and they refuse to speak to anybody-

Joe Rogan 9:45 Yes.

Meghan Murphy 9:45 ... who doesn't see things their way. Which, you know, exacerbate- exacerbates the problem. Um, and I didn't want that. I felt intellectually bored also. Like, I was like, "Okay, I feel like I'm just repeating myself now. So I'm not even thinking critically about what I'm saying. I already know the analysis. I already know the mantra. I know what my response is supposed to be. I know what words I'm supposed to plug in-"

Joe Rogan 10:08 Right.

Meghan Murphy 10:09 ... you know, patriarchy, capitalism-"

Joe Rogan 10:12 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 10:12 "... intersectionality," although I never got fully into that nonsense.

Joe Rogan 10:17 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 10:19 (laughs) But, you know, and I, and I j- I really, like, I was r- (laughs) I really have been treated very badly by the left and by feminists and-

Joe Rogan 10:28 When you say that, though, d- don't you think it's just specific people that are attached to an ideology? It's not like people that are left wing people have treated l- you badly. It's very specific kind of people that decide that you are venturing away from the ideological boundaries.

Meghan Murphy 10:47 Y- it's partly that, but I think that is connected to left wing politics and left wing-

Joe Rogan 10:54 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 10:54 ... ideology. At least now. Maybe that wasn't true in the '70s.

Joe Rogan 10:58 But left wing thoughts, right? Thi- this is the thing that I have a problem with, uh, with all this stuff. It's like, I'm very l- open-minded and very liberal when it comes to gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, all... You know, e- even things that I'm, I'm still on the fence about now, like universal basic income, boy, I was, I was all in until the pandemic. And then watching the way people behaved when they got ahold of, uh, a lot of unemployment and the, the money from the government, the COVID relief money, and they w- didn't wanna work anymore.

Meghan Murphy 11:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:27 I was like, "Ooh." You know?

Meghan Murphy 11:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:29 I mean, I, I know it's not a lot of people, you know, it's not like all the people reacted the s- exact same way. But I have friends that own businesses, and they can't get people to w- they couldn't get people to work for 'em. Like, I have a friend who, uh, owns a restaurant, and he couldn't get a bartender. Like, the bartender would only work for $20 an hour, or excuse me, uh, for 20 hours a week so that he could get unemployment. And he was like, "What the fuck, man?" Like ...

Meghan Murphy 11:53 Yeah. I mean, but I, I think that's partly, um, I mean, I, yeah. That's true.

Joe Rogan 11:58 Do you know what I mean? It's like ...

Meghan Murphy 11:59 But I think it's, that's partly, like, baked into left wing ideology nowadays because there's this, like, opposition to, um-... you know, independence. There's an opposition to trying to better yourself as an individual person. There's an opposition to individualism because you're supposed to blame the system.

Joe Rogan 12:20 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 12:20 You're supposed to blame capitalism, racism, patriarchy, you know, and then all the myriad of phobias, transphobia, fatphobia. And so the solution is not to change you. It's not your fault, it's their fault-

Joe Rogan 12:34 Wow.

Meghan Murphy 12:34 ... because they're phobic or the system's trying to keep you down, so I think that, like, not wanting to work anymore is like, "Well," like, "why should I? I don't have to." Like-

Joe Rogan 12:44 Well, that's the thing-

Meghan Murphy 12:45 ... they don't realize that it, like, it's good for your mental health to work. Like, you're not-

Joe Rogan 12:48 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 12:48 ... supposed ... It's not good for your mental health to sit around in your apartment on Netflix or on Zoom or on social media or on dating apps or looking at porn all day.

Joe Rogan 12:58 Well, the thing is, it's like, it's not good to not be self-sustaining is my thought. I think there's an issue, but I, I think for many people, you get unemployment and you use that unemployment to try to find another job and to sustain yourself, and it's great. But for some people, there is a general human tendency to, uh, when you're offered a break, to take that break, you know, when you're offered money to do nothing, to do nothing, you'll, and you'll do nothing.

Meghan Murphy 13:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:25 Um, I think my thoughts about universal basic income were, and this is what I liked about it, I liked the idea of giving a person an opportunity where, like, we pay for so many things. We just sent $40 billion to Ukraine, right? Why can't we figure out a way to give people enough money to sustain themselves so that they could actually pursue their interests and do what they want to do? And I think that would make for a stronger world, a stronger economy, a stronger community of people, and happier, healthier people. That was my thought. But then when I saw how people reacted with the, the government money from COVID relief and from, from, um, uh, unemployment, I was thinking, "Man, I don't know. There's a, a lot of people that aren't going to react the right way, and that what they're going to do is they're going to take an easy way out and they're going to lay around," and that sucks. Like, if you give people an opportunity to be lazy, unfortunately, a lot of people are going to be lazy. And the, the problem is if you oppose that, if you oppose that relief, then people say you're cruel and, you know, you're l- not looking out for the working people, and it's like, that's not j- first of all, that, I, I hate those fucking categories, like working people. Goddammit, everybody's working. Shut the fuck up. The, it's not a working people issue. We're all working. Everyone's doing something, right? Or, or you're not, and if you're not, that, that is the problem. The problem is when people don't want to do anything, because that is a general instinct that people have towards laziness, and the problem, I think, with whether it's universal b- basic income or any other social safety nets, which I very much support for the most part, is that some people, it's not everybody, but some people have a tendency to just be fucking lazy.

Meghan Murphy 15:07 Yes. And, uh, again, this is attached to, I think, leftist ideology because I think what I've realized of late is that leftist ideology is about idealism. Like, it's like we want to create this world and this is the way the world should be, but in reality, that world doesn't exist and people don't work like that.

Joe Rogan 15:32 Right.

Meghan Murphy 15:32 Like, what they want... And I'm, I'm saying this as somebody who believed these things, like, people have (laughs) like, people get really mad at me, but people are mad at me all the time, um, nothing new, but, you know, people, when I start criticizing the left, people get angry at me. First of all because people, I think, like to categorize people and box them in, and when they start moving outside of the box, they get angry and confused and frustrated, and so they'll just want to write you off or hate you or call me right wing or whatever. But, you know, I, I, I was a leftist and I thought like these people and I thought that it was right, and the reason that I was a leftist is because I care about people.

Joe Rogan 16:11 Yes.

Meghan Murphy 16:11 It's not because I'm an evil communist, like-

Joe Rogan 16:13 Right.

Meghan Murphy 16:13 ... the right is very bad at writing people off too.

Joe Rogan 16:16 Right.

Meghan Murphy 16:16 It's like, "Oh, these communists." It's like these people don't even really know what communism is. They've, I'm sure they've never read Marx for the most part. But, you know, I didn't want people to be poor. I didn't want people to not have housing and food and access to healthcare and education. I wanted things to be more equal and just.

Joe Rogan 16:36 Right.

Meghan Murphy 16:36 That's why I was a leftist. But the solution was an idea, you know? Like, "If we create this kind of society, then we'll all live in happy communities and everybody will work and nobody will slack off and, like, they'll, there'll be no exploitation and, like, rape will disappear and oppression will disappear," and that's not what happens in the real world. That's not what's happened in places that have implemented communist regimes.

Joe Rogan 17:03 No.

Meghan Murphy 17:04 So, it, and, you know, you can't, it's, I don't think that it's good to base a movement on idealism and ideas that are not rooted in material reality.

Joe Rogan 17:13 Do you think... I mean, the, the argument is always that socialism has never been implemented correctly-

Meghan Murphy 17:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:19 ... um, this sort of utopian idea of what, uh, a real, genuine, compassionate socialist community could look like, that it's never really been done correctly. But do you think it's a human nature issue? Do you think it's like, like the, the idea of socialism is great on a surface level if you, you're thinking about people that work hard and that want everyone else to do well and they want to all contribute. Like, you c- I think you could have a socialist community of very driven, disciplined people where they, they share, they share things. Like, we have some socialist things, right? Like, uh, the fire department is an excellent example of socialism because we pay into this thing that supports these people who put out fires.

Meghan Murphy 18:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:06 And nobody complains about it. It's a normal thing. It's something that we contribute to, it's like a fund, and that fund puts out fires, and it puts out fires, you know-... uh, based on your tax dollars that you put into it. And you don't want a society where if you don't have money, they don't put the fire out, right?

Meghan Murphy 18:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:25 But some people would argue that that's, that's where it ends. Like you shouldn't have that and extend that to education. You shouldn't have that and extend that to, um, healthcare. But I think that's where socialism could work. I think wha- w- ... And I don't mean socialism, like, across the board. I mean socialist ideas. I think the idea of a universal healthcare system where everyone is covered and you never have to worry about anything, like, bankrupting you because you broke a leg or you, you hurt your back. Like, that you're taken care of, and that we all contribute to that. And again, if we can give $40 billion to Ukraine, why the fuck can't we do that? No, I ... We can do that. That's totally possible. The education system, the idea that you have to be in debt. I was reading this story the other day about this woman who's $250,000 in debt, uh, from student loans, and she took out $150,000. So over the course of the, uh, interest that's accumulated, she's got $100,000 more in interest. I'm like, "What the fuck is that?"

Meghan Murphy 19:31 Dude.

Joe Rogan 19:31 And you can't get rid of that.

Meghan Murphy 19:32 It's fucked. Uh, tell me about it. Like, I mean, I, I support public healthcare still. Like, I do think that it is imperative that people have access to healthcare.

Joe Rogan 19:44 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 19:44 And I think the healthcare system in America is horrible because I think the aspect of it that's horrible is that people can go into insane amounts of debt because they got sick or hurt.

Joe Rogan 19:57 Yes.

Meghan Murphy 19:57 Like, that's not okay-

Joe Rogan 19:58 It's not okay.

Meghan Murphy 19:58 ... to me. It's not okay. And the sa- ... And student loan debt, like, you're right. Like, you, you, you get an amount of debt that you can't afford to pay off with the job that you've gotten from going to university, and then they're charging you all this interest, so it makes it doubly impossible to pay it off, and it's like a trap. I mean-

Joe Rogan 20:16 And you can't get out of it.

Meghan Murphy 20:18 No.

Joe Rogan 20:18 Like, you can't g- ... You can't even go-

Meghan Murphy 20:19 You can't declare bankruptcy-

Joe Rogan 20:20 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 20:20 ... on it anymore.

Joe Rogan 20:20 Which is crazy.

Meghan Murphy 20:21 You used to be able to.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Yeah. You could sell some horrible medication that kills people, get sued for it, lose all your money, go bankrupt, and you're good. You ... They ... It'll absolve you of your debts. But that's one of the rare forms of debt that you cannot escape.

Meghan Murphy 20:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:38 Which is crazy because you're, you're giving it to 18-year-olds. You have an 18-year-old, doesn't have a fully-

Meghan Murphy 20:43 They're like, "Sure, yeah."

Joe Rogan 20:43 ... formed brain.

Meghan Murphy 20:44 "Take ... I want the money." But also, like, I couldn't afford to go to school full time. I could not. I was w- ... Like, you know, for my whole life, until I was able to, you know, make a living off of what I'm doing now, which took a lot of work and me working for free for many, many years, I had like three jobs all through university. Like, I was always working full time, and you're trying to complete a degree, and they make that impossible too. You can't complete a degree part time. At least I couldn't in Canada because I couldn't take classes in ... Like, I couldn't finish a degree only by taking night classes. It's impossible. So eventually, you have to quit your job and you have to go into debt. Like, people who are critical of students who rack up a ton of student loan debt and can't pay it off, um, don't seem to under- ... They're like, "Why don't you get a summer job and save money over the summer?" And I was like, "I don't live at my parents' house." Like, when I was 18, my parents moved to the States. I have to pay rent. Like, my parents aren't paying for my life for me. I ... Like, I don't have any money to save. Sometimes I don't have enough money to get on the bus and I have to walk to work. This is when I was like, you know, 19, 20. Like, I was broke (laughs) for most of my life.

Joe Rogan 21:59 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 21:59 Like, no, I wasn't poor. Like, I don't wanna be like, "Woe is me." Like, I always had a house and, you know, something to fall back on. Like, I was never gonna be homeless. It wasn't like I couldn't eat. But I ... There was no saving money. Like, I did not have thousands of dollars to pay tuition. I had to take out student loan debt. I had no choice.

Joe Rogan 22:18 Right. Do you think that there's a certain amount of struggle like that that is not just, uh, good for you, but necessary in order to, like, steel your discipline and create a person who can overcome adversity? Like, if, if everything is handed to you, this is the argument that the right will use, right? (clears throat) That, um, if you make things too easy, if you give people free education, if you give people, uh, free healthcare, that they're gonna become soft, and we need a resilient, tough country that works hard. And the way you get people to work hard is you force them to, 'cause that's the only way that people are gonna do it.

Meghan Murphy 22:57 (sighs) I think it's true in some ways. I mean, I, I think that struggle is imperative and important. I think that you need pain to experience and understand pleasure. Um, I think if there's just ... Everything is easy for you, I think you get really depressed. Like, you need to work hard, and you know what it ... You have to know what it means to, like, suffer and feel pain and to, like, be bad at things and to, like, get better at things.

Joe Rogan 23:24 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 23:24 Um, I know I don't need to tell you this, but (laughs) like, I, I, I mean, what I experienced was useful to me in the long term, I think, because I understand (laughs) ... Like, I understand real life.

Joe Rogan 23:41 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 23:41 I understand why people go into debt. I understand how hard it is for people who are poor and working class to get out of that. Like, what a lot of people on the right don't understand is that class still is a real thing in North America. Um, it's not as overt or as visible or as extreme in, as it is in Third World countries. Um, but it's still, it's still real. I mean, if you, if you are born poor and working class, it's not that it's impossible to get out of it. You can, and lots of people do, and that's incredible. But you're challenged in so many different ways, mentally and in terms of systemic barriers, you know, being able to get a degree, for example, um...... and having the kind of credit that you need to take out loans to, you know, buy property, get a house, so on and so forth. But there's, like, a mental barrier that I experienced, because I thought, "I'm working class. I'm always gonna be working class. I don't understand money. I don't understand capitalism." I think this is partly to do with my politics also, I'll say that. Um, like, I don't know, I don't know how to make money, I don't know how to save money, I don't have, like, business sense. And I was... I limited myself in that way, um, 'cause I just thought, I was like, "I'm never gonna be able to own property."

Joe Rogan 25:07 Right.

Meghan Murphy 25:07 "Like, I can't- I'm never gonna be able to afford to buy a house, so whatever." Like, "So I'm just gonna work at, you know, making $50,000 a year, and pay my rent, and that's the end of that." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:20 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 25:20 Like... And I think that people who come from money see money as an option. They're... It's accessible to them, so I think that they might work harder to make more money and to, you know, invest and to save and to-

Joe Rogan 25:35 Well, they also have examples of people who've done it, so they can see it.

Meghan Murphy 25:38 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 25:38 They could see it happening.

Meghan Murphy 25:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:40 And they, they see a path too. If you have an uncle that started a business and became successful-

Meghan Murphy 25:44 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 25:44 ... you go, "Oh, I see how to do it."

Meghan Murphy 25:45 I mean-

Joe Rogan 25:46 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 25:46 ... and I knew, I knew when I was a kid, I knew when I was a teenager and this is still true now, that a lot of people who own houses and properties, that's because they had family money.

Joe Rogan 25:54 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 25:55 You know, their parents put their down payment down for them. So if you don't have that, I don't have that, so I was like, "How am I... Like, what, I'm gonna save up $30,000, like, for a down payment?"

Joe Rogan 26:04 Yeah, uh, the, the, the term working class, one of the things that bugs me about it is it's like, it, it's, it's one of those, like, things that gets used often as a cheap political ploy. Like, "We're here for the working class."

Meghan Murphy 26:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:17 And then people... "You need to support the working class." There's this... That's what drives me nuts about it, 'cause it's this weird sort of categorization of people. 'Cause it does classify people in almost an inescapable little tomb, you know, "You're the working class, you're part of the working class."

Meghan Murphy 26:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:33 Like, what is, what, what if... What the fuck does that even mean? Like, are you talking about people that are struggling to pay their bills? "Yeah." Well, that's the majority of people. That's the majority of people, and oftentimes what we consider not the working class, people are such knuckleheads that if they make $400,000 a year, they spend 399. (laughs) You know, and they become the working class. They have a lot of other stuff that they have to pay for.

Meghan Murphy 26:55 You just called me a knucklehead.

Joe Rogan 26:56 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 26:56 I mean, I don't... I didn't make that much money, but-

Joe Rogan 26:59 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 26:59 ... I was like, "Oh, shit, there's money in my bank account." Like... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:02 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 27:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:02 But you know what I'm saying? It's like, uh, b- the, the thing about the idea of the working class is that people are struggling, you know? And, uh, I, I, I totally get that and I totally understand that, and I do think that we need to protect, protect those people. That's why I'm in favor of universal basic healthcare, of, of universal healthcare, and that's why I'm in favor of social safety nets, that's why I'm in favor of, you know, community programs and making things more accessible to people. And definitely, I'm in favor of at least reducing the burden of the cost of education in a massive way. Maybe lift the barrier to an entry to, uh, education. Make it harder to get in, in terms of, like, the, the output-

Meghan Murphy 27:46 Totally.

Joe Rogan 27:46 ... that you have to put forth. Make it difficult to get in. But make it so that when you get in, once you're in there, you know, like, you know there's gonna be community colleges that you can go to, there's gonna be places you can go to if you're not gonna be able to make it to a university. But the idea that you should be $150,000 in debt, and that it's $200,000 after years and years of, of interest accumulating is crazy. And you can't get out of it? That's crazy. That's a sick industry.

Meghan Murphy 28:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:13 It's a, it's a sick industry and it, and, and it captures so many fucking people. It really does.

Meghan Murphy 28:19 It's crippling. Yeah, and I totally agree with you. I support all of those things too. Um-

Joe Rogan 28:24 So it makes you a lefty.

Meghan Murphy 28:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:27 You're a lefty. See what I'm saying?

Meghan Murphy 28:27 Well, I, I mean, I think I-

Joe Rogan 28:30 Well, what is the left?

Meghan Murphy 28:30 ... it's, it's... Part of this, again, is that I don't wanna categorize myself as anything.

Joe Rogan 28:35 Right.

Meghan Murphy 28:36 Because then you get stuck in these boxes and it's like, "Well, you're a leftist, so you have to support Black Lives Matter."

Joe Rogan 28:43 Right.

Meghan Murphy 28:43 "You're a leftist, so you have to believe women. You're a leftist, so you have to, you know, wanna open the borders, you wanna abolish the police."

Joe Rogan 28:52 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 28:52 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's what I don't want. And I don't, and I don't wanna be trapped in any category or ideology. I support practical ways to help people, so if these policies work to help people, then I support them. If there's different policies that are categorized as right wing that help people that are better, that are more effective, then I'll support those policies. That's what I mean.

Joe Rogan 29:16 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 29:16 And, and also, you know, what the left has become is totally different than what the left used to be. I don't believe that the left supports the working class or cares about the working class. I don't... I think that the left is caught up in... I think that the left consists of middle and upper, upper class people who don't know any poor people, who don't know any marginalized people, who don't know working class people, who don't know... You know, they're, they're advocating for people as these groups and categories that exist in their head. And I say this because I'm from Vancouver, I lived in Vancouver my entire life and Vancouver is a very left-wing place. All of my friends were left wing. Um, I didn't have a single right-wing friend. (laughs) I didn't know any right-wing people. I barely even knew, like, any religious people. I knew a whole bunch of people who were like me.

Joe Rogan 30:07 Do you have right-wing friends now?

Meghan Murphy 30:09 Yeah, I think so. Um, like, I've, I've met... Basically since I was kicked off Twitter, I... You know, that was, like, a blessing in disguise in some ways. It's-

Joe Rogan 30:20 For people who don't know you-

Meghan Murphy 30:22 Oh, yes.

Joe Rogan 30:22 ... let- we should just, like, give, just for people who didn't listen-

Meghan Murphy 30:24 My claim to fame.

Joe Rogan 30:24 ... to the other episode. I met Megan because I was outraged, um, and I brought it up in... I brought up your case in the conversation with Jack Dorsey, I brought it up multiple times in the podcast.... 'cause you were kicked off Twitter for life for saying a man can never be a woman.

Meghan Murphy 30:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:43 Which is madness.

Meghan Murphy 30:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:45 It's cru- for, like-

Meghan Murphy 30:46 Men aren't women-

Joe Rogan 30:47 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 30:47 ... is what I said.

Joe Rogan 30:48 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 30:48 Apparently, men are allowed to say that. Matt Walsh is allowed to say that. I'm not allowed to say that.

Joe Rogan 30:52 What do you mean?

Meghan Murphy 30:53 Like, I, I, like, after I got kicked off of Twitter, I saw right-wing men on Twitter saying the same things that I've said, and they weren't kicked off of Twitter. And I-

Joe Rogan 31:02 Really?

Meghan Murphy 31:02 ... think that's because-

Joe Rogan 31:04 Were you in a conversation with a trans person when you said that?

Meghan Murphy 31:07 (smacks lips) Not that I'm aware of. I don't know who was in the conversation. It was part of a thread, and it wasn't like I was saying to somebody, "You're not a woman."

Joe Rogan 31:17 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 31:18 It was in response to a tweet that was sort of confusing and me saying, "But men aren't women, though."

Joe Rogan 31:25 What was the... Do you remember what the-

Meghan Murphy 31:27 I don't remember what the context is, is to be ho- I'm just kidding.

Joe Rogan 31:29 So, you were-

Meghan Murphy 31:30 But th- It was that. C- There was, like, three tweets. But also, like, they... I believe that Twitter was going after me specifically because I was speaking critically about gender identity ideology and because I was asking these kinds of questions that I w- Like, I don't think that it was specifically because of these tweets. I think they took those tweets as an excuse and, like-

Joe Rogan 31:52 Right.

Meghan Murphy 31:52 ... I think they were trying to get rid of me, and then they're like, "Uh, okay, that's hateful. That's hateful."

Joe Rogan 31:56 And when you say "they," it's probably just some moderator. It's probably someone who has a, a subjective opinion about what you say and whether or not you should say it, and that's a problem generally that a lot of people have with the censorship that's on social media, Twitter in particular. You know, um, one of the weird things that's happening now with, uh, Elon Musk buying Twitter, or attempting to buy Twitter, they've done something different. And one of the things they've done different is I gained, now it's 900,000 followers in the month or so.

Meghan Murphy 32:31 What?

Joe Rogan 32:31 Yes. Yes.

Meghan Murphy 32:33 I mean, a lot of people really like you, so-

Joe Rogan 32:35 Thank you. Sweet.

Meghan Murphy 32:35 ... maybe 900,000 (laughs) more people were like-

Joe Rogan 32:38 I think-

Meghan Murphy 32:39 "I'm Desiree. I love Joe Rogan."

Joe Rogan 32:39 I think I was in a box. I think I was-

Meghan Murphy 32:42 Well, Megyn Kelly-

Joe Rogan 32:42 ... restricted in some way.

Meghan Murphy 32:42 ... said the same thing. Did you hear her say that?

Joe Rogan 32:44 She said she gained a lot?

Meghan Murphy 32:45 She gained a ton, like a- like a 100,000 or... I'm, I don't remember-

Joe Rogan 32:49 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 32:49 ... the number, but a lot.

Joe Rogan 32:50 Something's going on.

Meghan Murphy 32:51 Like, it was really noticeable, and so she was like... Or is it, she's like, "I'm sh- pretty sure Twitter was, you know-"

Joe Rogan 32:57 Shadow banning.

Meghan Murphy 32:58 "... messing-"

Joe Rogan 32:58 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 32:59 "... around with my account."

Joe Rogan 33:01 Yeah, I think so. I think there's something, something was going on. I mean, I'm just guessing. The other option could be they're bots, that I've gained 900,000 bots. But it's, it's, like, every time I look, it's, like, another 100,000. It's crazy. It's, it, it grows faster than anything. And Instagram is the opposite. Instagram seems to have hit the brakes on me, like somewhere-

Meghan Murphy 33:21 Oh, yeah? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:21 ... somewhere around six months ago, something happened, and it seems like it's s- it's slowed down growth a lot. I don't check it too much, so I might be wrong. I might be, you know... I mean, maybe this is something they've done with their algorithm where they, uh, prefer videos over photographs now, uh, which I think they do.

Meghan Murphy 33:40 They are, they're trying to go more video, I believe.

Joe Rogan 33:42 'Cause-

Meghan Murphy 33:42 I read that.

Joe Rogan 33:42 ... that's where the viral, uh, effect really takes place, and I see it with my kids with TikTok. You know, I have one daughter who's a heavy TikToker.

Meghan Murphy 33:51 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:52 She's always doing dances-

Meghan Murphy 33:53 Never-

Joe Rogan 33:53 ... with her friends.

Meghan Murphy 33:53 ... been on TikTok and don't really understand how it works.

Joe Rogan 33:56 Well, you're not 14. (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 33:57 That's true. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:59 Like... But, but little girls, they, they get together, and they do dances, and, and they like to, like, memorize dances and sync it to music. And-

Meghan Murphy 34:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:07 ... and then they're watching all these other people TikToking and doing all the, these other cr- And it's like TikTok just hits you with video after video after video, and they just get you hooked. You open that app up, and it's like, you're already like, "Oh, movement. Things are happening." And this is what they're trying to do, I believe, with Instagram.

Meghan Murphy 34:23 I think so too, and I, I did. I've read that. I don't get it 'cause I hate watching videos on Instagram, and I hate watching videos on my phone in general. Like, if I'm gonna... 'Cause I'm an old person, I guess. Like, I'm like, if I wanna watch a video, I wanna look at a big screen. Like-

Joe Rogan 34:38 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 34:38 ... I'll watch stuff on my laptop, but I, I hate... I don't like reading stuff on... I don't like using my phone. I don't even like texting on my phone to be honest. Like, I text on my laptop. But, I mean, I sort of think that Instagram messes with me a little bit, too. They refuse to verify my account. I've tried, like, five times.

Joe Rogan 34:55 How many followers do you have?

Meghan Murphy 34:56 14,000. No, sorry. Is that right?

Joe Rogan 35:02 What's the number that you think-

Meghan Murphy 35:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:04 You can go check.

Meghan Murphy 35:05 Who cares? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:07 You could check.

Meghan Murphy 35:07 I don't wanna pretend like I, like, don't give a shit, 'cause I do give a shit, but not that big of a shit. Um...

Joe Rogan 35:13 Is there a number that you have to reach before they're, they'll verify you?

Meghan Murphy 35:17 Oh, I went up to 14.3K today-

Joe Rogan 35:20 Whoa.

Meghan Murphy 35:20 ... from two.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Congratulations.

Meghan Murphy 35:22 (laughs) Thank you. But I, I, I just felt like my, uh, my posts were getting less traction all of a sudden, and they were no different than what I'd been posting before.

Joe Rogan 35:31 Yeah, I don't know what that is. Like, that could just be coincidental.

Meghan Murphy 35:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:36 But I know some people have definitely been fucked with and, you know, there... Wasn't there a football player who complained a lot about it, Jamie, and then eventually he got let outta Instagram jail?

Meghan Murphy 35:46 Why does he need a Ni- Like, he's a football player. Like, what does he need an Instagram account for? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:51 Two.

Meghan Murphy 35:51 I need an Instagram account because it's how I make a living.

Joe Rogan 35:55 Well, i- he does, too. That's how you get sponsors. When you're a football player, you have to get sponsorships.

Meghan Murphy 35:59 Oh, if you have lots of followers.

Joe Rogan 36:00 Yeah, the more follow-

Meghan Murphy 36:01 Okay, fine, fine. I'm sorry-

Joe Rogan 36:03 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 36:03 ... football player. You like sports.

Joe Rogan 36:06 Well, think about it.

Meghan Murphy 36:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:07 I mean, if you have a large following, like a Tom Brady. I mean, God, how many sponsors does he have?

Meghan Murphy 36:12 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 36:12 You know what I mean?

Meghan Murphy 36:13 Duh.

Joe Rogan 36:13 That's, that's an amazing way to make income.

Meghan Murphy 36:15 (laughs) Like, you don't need an Instagram account to throw a ball. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:18 You need it for Gatorade and Nike and-

Meghan Murphy 36:20 Yeah, okay.

Joe Rogan 36:20 ... uh, all the car sponsors and all kinds of different things. When those guys have a, a large following, that's very valuable-

Meghan Murphy 36:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:27 Which is really an interesting thing. It's like, what is social media for? I mean, are you using it for, as a business, or are you using it to be social? Are you just having fun and, you know, expressing yourself, or are you using it to...... maximize your brand, air quotes.

Meghan Murphy 36:41 I mean, I don't brand. I swear to God, I don't. I'm obviously a very authentic person.

Joe Rogan 36:47 I believe you.

Meghan Murphy 36:48 I, I've just, I mean, I, I have to use social media for work because I work for myself, so it's the only way I can get what I produce out into the world. And it's th- that's how, I make an income almost solely through individual donations. Like, so people who send me donations through my website or they sign up to my Patreon or they pay for a subscription on Substack, which I don't, I haven't put anything behind a pay wall, so you can, people can just choose to pay or not. So I just appreciate it if people pay, 'cause that's how I make an income. But like, I don't have, I don't, there's no institution, there's no other-

Joe Rogan 37:25 It's kinda pure.

Meghan Murphy 37:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:26 It's very pure, in a way.

Meghan Murphy 37:26 And s- but I, but I also, I would not really ... I don't think I would have a public Instagram account if I hadn't been w- I didn't start a public Instagram account until I was cooked- kicked off of Twitter.

Joe Rogan 37:38 Right.

Meghan Murphy 37:38 Like, I have to do that. I don't love spending a bunch of time on social media.

Joe Rogan 37:42 Do you, did you enjoy Twitter, though, when you were on it?

Meghan Murphy 37:45 Yes!

Joe Rogan 37:45 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 37:45 I'm like, I don't know why everybody complains about Twitter all the time, 'cause I really like Twitter. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:49 Have you tried to get back on? 'Cause I know some people that were banned before, they, they tried to get back on, they got back on.

Meghan Murphy 37:56 I, uh, I appealed twice, since-

Joe Rogan 37:59 Recently?

Meghan Murphy 37:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:00 Yeah?

Meghan Murphy 38:00 So since Elon Musk announced that he was gonna buy Twitter, we'll see if that actually goes through or not. Um-

Joe Rogan 38:08 They just gave into one of his demands.

Meghan Murphy 38:10 Oh, did they?

Joe Rogan 38:11 Yeah. They just released, uh, they, well, see if you can find what the article says. But, uh, essentially, um, he said unless they give him access to data so he can find out how many of these accounts are fake.

Meghan Murphy 38:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:23 'Cause his, his take on it was like, if you were gonna buy something and you were buying it under the assumption that ... okay, here it goes. Twitter set to turn bot data over to Musk. All right, so this says that Twitter's board is reportedly set to pull an about face, offering Elon Musk internal data on hundreds of millions of tweets as it fights for the billionaire to complete his acquisition of the social media company. S- Twitter set to turn over information to Musk, capturing more than 500 million tweets, the device the posts came from, and other information about the account holders, The Washington Post reported Wednesday, citing an unnamed person familiar with the matter. Such a move would help respond to Musk's repeated demands for more information about the composition of Twitter's user base and the extent of its problem with bots. Musk has challenged Twitter's claims that just 5% of its accounts are bots, calling the way the company calculates fake accounts very suspicious in a May tweet. So, um, I'm really, uh, interested to see how this plays out, because he is what i- he would describe as a free speech absolutist. And I think that that is something that people are reluctant to, uh, to agree is a, a good thing, because they're worried about the negative aspects of free speech. You know, they're worried about assholes and, you know, and, and trolls and all that stuff, and-

Meghan Murphy 39:42 Toughen up, man. Toughen up. And I'm not joking. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:46 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 39:47 I- I was calling myself a free speech absolutist for a while, and then I interviewed Michael Solana, who's, um, with the Founders Fund, and he organized Hereticon, which was-

Joe Rogan 39:58 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 39:59 ... a conference that I went to in Miami in January that was, like, amazing. It was basically, like, a wrong think conference.

Joe Rogan 40:04 Was it good?

Meghan Murphy 40:05 It was amazing.

Joe Rogan 40:06 Yeah?

Meghan Murphy 40:07 It was awesome.

Joe Rogan 40:09 Do you smoke s- cigars?

Meghan Murphy 40:11 No.

Joe Rogan 40:11 You want one?

Meghan Murphy 40:12 No.

Joe Rogan 40:12 Okay.

Meghan Murphy 40:13 I'll choke. I want more Raicilla, though.

Joe Rogan 40:15 All right. Okay.

Meghan Murphy 40:15 I used to, I smoked cigarettes from the time I was 13 until 21.

Joe Rogan 40:19 You got, your Raicilla's right next to you.

Meghan Murphy 40:20 Well, I wanted to open a different one, 'cause I want you to try this one.

Joe Rogan 40:23 Oh, Jesus.

Meghan Murphy 40:23 Will you try some more or no?

Joe Rogan 40:24 It's nasty.

Meghan Murphy 40:25 Dude, this one is good, I swear to God. Okay, listen. If you don't like this one ... Well, I already said I'd give up on you if you don't like this one. Look at how beautiful the label is, in any case. It's a nice bottle and the label.

Joe Rogan 40:38 Yeah. Real pretty poison.

Meghan Murphy 40:39 Okay, well, I'm gonna have more.

Joe Rogan 40:41 Go ahead.

Meghan Murphy 40:43 I love the smell of cigars, and I've always wished that I could, but I don't know how to not inhale, so I choke. Like, 'cause I treat it like a cigarette.

Joe Rogan 40:50 You smoke cigarettes?

Meghan Murphy 40:51 Well, I quit when I was 21, so.

Joe Rogan 40:52 Oh, it's true, true.

Meghan Murphy 40:52 And I think, and I hate cigarettes now. But, um, I quit when I was 21, which was good timing, 'cause that was, like, around the same time when all the bars started not letting you smoke inside. I used to, like, go to the bar and drink beer and smoke cigarettes inside the bar.

Joe Rogan 41:07 The good old days. I used to like comedy clubs and be smoking.

Meghan Murphy 41:10 Can you imagine? Ew.

Joe Rogan 41:11 Now? Yeah. It's nasty.

Meghan Murphy 41:12 In Mexico, like in Sayulita where I live, you can smoke anywhere you want. And I take it because I love Sayulita and I love freedom (laughs) and I love Mexico and I love that there's no rules. But when I leave the bar and I wake up the next, I wake up the next day coughing, my hair stinks-

Joe Rogan 41:28 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 41:28 ... my clothes stink.

Joe Rogan 41:29 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 41:29 Like-

Joe Rogan 41:30 You're probably catching a buzz, though, even though you're coughing.

Meghan Murphy 41:32 Probably. So many people smoke there-

Joe Rogan 41:34 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 41:34 ... it's crazy. And coming from somewhere like Vancouver that's like a super healthy place, so nobody ... See, they smell so good, like I really like it, but I can't do it.

Joe Rogan 41:41 I get it. I get it. Um-

Meghan Murphy 41:43 And you're not gonna peer pressure me into this?

Joe Rogan 41:46 I'm not even trying.

Meghan Murphy 41:46 No, I'm joking.

Joe Rogan 41:46 Notice. Notice I haven't tried.

Meghan Murphy 41:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:49 (laughs) I-

Meghan Murphy 41:49 That was a joke.

Joe Rogan 41:50 I know.

Meghan Murphy 41:51 Aren't you a comedian? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:53 Yeah. I went along with it. Didn't you see?

Meghan Murphy 41:55 Yeah. Okay.

Joe Rogan 41:55 I went along with your joke.

Meghan Murphy 41:56 Thank you. I appreciate that.

Joe Rogan 41:58 Um, they used to be able to smoke in Dallas, like up until, like, fairly recently. 'Cause I remember the, uh, Addison Improv, which is a club I, I love, uh, it's a suburb of Dallas, they had, uh, smoking shows. And I wanna say it was in the 2000s. I don't know when they stopped doing it.

Meghan Murphy 42:17 Interesting. Like, okay ... Well, actually, no, 'cause so I ... Sorry, I should speak into the microphone. Um-

Joe Rogan 42:23 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 42:23 I know about this. I know how mics work.

Joe Rogan 42:25 That's the Raicilla.

Meghan Murphy 42:25 Yeah. Well, I've had, like, the last (laughs) podcast that I did with you, I saw online a ton of people being like, "Ugh, Megan got drunk." And I'm like, "Dude, I had two drinks." Do you know how many drink- do you know how much Raicilla I drink? Like, if I go out to, like, party, like I'm like I'm going out. I drink, like, I don't know, like, 11 or 12 shot, like, shots of Raicilla. Like, two drinks, I'm-

Joe Rogan 42:49 You drink 11 or 12 shots of Raicilla?

Meghan Murphy 42:50 Dude, I can drink so much Raicilla, it's crazy. I don't even know how.This is, like, once a week. This is not ... I mean, maybe that sounds like a lot.

Joe Rogan 42:59 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 42:59 Like, it's not every day. Like-

Joe Rogan 43:01 12 shots?

Meghan Murphy 43:03 And I go through it really, like it's ... I go through it real fast. Sometimes I have to switch to whiskey so that I slow down, 'cause I can't drink whiskey-

Joe Rogan 43:10 That's hilarious.

Meghan Murphy 43:10 ... as fast as I can drink Raicilla. But, um-

Joe Rogan 43:13 That doesn't make any sense either.

Meghan Murphy 43:16 No. It doesn't make ... No-

Joe Rogan 43:17 You and the odd lady.

Meghan Murphy 43:17 None of it makes sense to me. (laughs) But so they ... So I think in Vancouver ... So when I was 21, that would've been like 2001 and that was around the same time, I think ... I'm really bad at math. Um, like they were, they were cutting out smoking in bars probably around '99, 2000.

Joe Rogan 43:39 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 43:39 Around that time.

Joe Rogan 43:40 Right.

Meghan Murphy 43:41 And before that you ... Like, there were still restaurants and cafes with smoking sections, which was no different from the other section. And, uh, yeah, you could go to bars and clubs and smoke.

Joe Rogan 43:52 I remember that in restaurants.

Meghan Murphy 43:52 I would always come home with, like, cigarette burns on my fingers and holes in my mesh tank tops and ...

Joe Rogan 43:58 I remember that in restaurants, cigarette sections, smoking sections in restaurants.

Meghan Murphy 44:02 And it's just not that chair but that chair. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:04 Yeah. And not ventilation that's set up to, like, really filter things out very well either.

Meghan Murphy 44:10 No.

Joe Rogan 44:10 Like, Vegas is set up pretty well. Vegas you can still smoke indoors, can't you?

Meghan Murphy 44:16 This is real smooth, Joe.

Joe Rogan 44:17 Yeah? James says, "Yes."

Meghan Murphy 44:18 I really think you should try it.

Joe Rogan 44:19 Fuck out of here with your poison.

Meghan Murphy 44:19 Whenever you're ready. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:21 This is real smooth, she says.

Meghan Murphy 44:22 It is.

Joe Rogan 44:23 She's such a crackhead.

Meghan Murphy 44:24 Please believe me.

Joe Rogan 44:25 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 44:26 It is. Like this one's like, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:29 Oh my God, Megan, it's not smooth. It's nasty.

Meghan Murphy 44:31 This one is not smooth. That one is ...

Joe Rogan 44:34 Well, you sh- you fucked up. Should've started me off with a good one.

Meghan Murphy 44:38 There's still time.

Joe Rogan 44:41 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 44:42 (laughs) We'll get there.

Joe Rogan 44:43 I'm a, I'm a proponent of, you know, y- you having the ability to do whatever you want. The problem is, like, the people that work there. If you're, if you're smoking and, like, that ... There's so many cases of, uh, people that are waiters or waitresses in a bar and they, they get cancer from lungs.

Meghan Murphy 45:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:00 And they don't smoke.

Meghan Murphy 45:01 It's horrible.

Joe Rogan 45:01 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 45:02 I can't imagine having to work in those bars and clubs or work on airplanes when everybody's smoking on the airplane.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Yeah. That's the craziest thing. You're in a-

Meghan Murphy 45:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:08 ... fucking tube in the sky.

Meghan Murphy 45:11 That I'm, I'm not old enough for that.

Joe Rogan 45:11 And that was like-

Meghan Murphy 45:12 But that's strange.

Joe Rogan 45:13 What year did that stop? I wanna say that stopped in the '90s, right?

Meghan Murphy 45:17 Really? I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to think of I've ... when I was first on a plane. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 45:23 I think Dice Clay used to have a bit about it.

Meghan Murphy 45:24 Maybe earlier than that. Probably, I mean, so they were still doing it in the '80s you think?

Joe Rogan 45:28 It had to be late '80s 'cause I think Dice had a bit about it in like '89 or '90.

Meghan Murphy 45:33 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:34 "You're in a fucking tube!"

Meghan Murphy 45:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:37 He had this whole bit about, uh, like a section. He's like, "What the ... We're breathing the same fucking air."

Meghan Murphy 45:43 Yeah. I mean, I really ... I don't ... Yeah. I don't like it and I think that it is unfair to impose that on employees who, like, have to be there.

Joe Rogan 45:51 Yeah. It's, it's ... That's the problem. The problem is the people that work ... It's a workplace environment safety issue. But, you know, if you have a, a social club that doesn't have employees, you know. Like, there's, there's places that set up, uh, they set up places as social clubs so that they can get around certain rules. You know, like-

Meghan Murphy 46:08 Okay, 'cause it's like a private space.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Right. Like, uh, cigar bars.

Meghan Murphy 46:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:13 Cigar bars have that kind of setup.

Meghan Murphy 46:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:14 You know?

Meghan Murphy 46:15 Or like hookah lounges?

Joe Rogan 46:17 That's-

Meghan Murphy 46:17 Is that similar? I've never-

Joe Rogan 46:19 Interesting.

Meghan Murphy 46:20 I've never tried a-

Joe Rogan 46:21 A hookah?

Meghan Murphy 46:22 I'm like, "A hookah?"

Joe Rogan 46:22 It's good. I've, it's good.

Meghan Murphy 46:25 What's the point? I don't get it. Like a-

Joe Rogan 46:26 You get a head rush.

Meghan Murphy 46:27 It's like-

Joe Rogan 46:27 Wild tobacco head rush.

Meghan Murphy 46:28 Like a head rush like-

Joe Rogan 46:29 Like whoo!

Meghan Murphy 46:31 ... nausea? That's what ... If I try to smoke a cigarette now, 'cause I ... Every once in a while, and generally I find it gross, but every once in a while I'll be like, there'll be a cigarette smell that appeals to me for some reason. It probably smells like my, like, du Maurier Ultra Light king size that I (laughs) used to smoke when I was 17. And I'm like, "I wanna try a cigarette." And then I'm like, "Ugh, that was fucking disgusting."

Joe Rogan 46:52 Really?

Meghan Murphy 46:52 "And now my mouth tastes like an ashtray." And it makes me feel ill. Like, I was lucky about quitting smoking because when I started smoking less, the cigarettes started making me feel sick.

Joe Rogan 47:02 Hmm.

Meghan Murphy 47:02 So if I would have a cigarette I would feel sick. Like I ... It was not hard. I wasn't like, "Oh Lord, I love smoking cigarettes so much." I think I just smoked cigarettes because I was like a teenager and I was-

Joe Rogan 47:13 Trying to be cool?

Meghan Murphy 47:13 ... nervous and wanted to fit in. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:15 Right. Yeah. It's, um, it's interesting that you could down 11 shots of Raicilla-

Meghan Murphy 47:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:21 ... and that doesn't make you feel ill. And a cigarette will make you feel ill.

Meghan Murphy 47:24 I sip the shots and not like-

Joe Rogan 47:27 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 47:27 ... doing-

Joe Rogan 47:27 But you're fucking 11 of them. They have to get down eventually.

Meghan Murphy 47:29 I'm a very-

Joe Rogan 47:31 (laughs) You're robust.

Meghan Murphy 47:31 ... strong ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:34 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 47:34 I come from robust Irish stock. Like-

Joe Rogan 47:37 That's what it is. It's the Irish stock.

Meghan Murphy 47:39 Totally.

Joe Rogan 47:39 Yeah. It has to be.

Meghan Murphy 47:40 I mean-

Joe Rogan 47:41 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 47:41 It's a really great skill. I appreciate it. I would be so sad if I had, like, two shots of Raicill and was like, "Whoo! Gotta go to bed."

Joe Rogan 47:48 Well, it's weird how it is, uh, genetic in that some, um, some people of, of certain ancestry, they don't have a historical, you know ... There's not, like, a lot of, uh, history of their ancestors drinking alcohol and they have, they struggle with it. Whereas Irish people generally ... Well, you know, but there are a lot of Irish alcoholics, but they, they can put it down better for whatever reason.

Meghan Murphy 48:12 Yeah. I mean, you also have to know how to drink. Like I, I don't do shots. Like, I wouldn't go to the bar and do a tequila shot 'cause I don't wanna get wasted and black out. Like, I wanna keep going until 5:00 AM, so you gotta ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:26 What is the appeal of drinking to you? Like what is th- that thing?

Meghan Murphy 48:30 This is an interesting question and I've thought about this a lot. (laughs) And I'm not sure-

Joe Rogan 48:34 Yeah?

Meghan Murphy 48:34 I have. I think about it all the time because, like, 'cause I don't love drugs. Um-

Joe Rogan 48:40 Do you like pot?

Meghan Murphy 48:42 No.

Joe Rogan 48:42 Not at all?

Meghan Murphy 48:43 Nope. I don't like it.

Joe Rogan 48:44 Interesting.

Meghan Murphy 48:44 I tried for many years to smoke weed and I ... It's not for me. It makes me ... I don't, I don't like the feeling of being high. Um, I- I'm sorry. I know that's a strange thing to say.

Joe Rogan 48:59 No, apologize. We've had this conversation three times today. You don't have to like what I likes.

Meghan Murphy 49:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:04 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 49:05 (laughs) You're like, "This is the kind of podcast where you come on and you agree with everything I say-"

Joe Rogan 49:10 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 49:10 "... or you're out and you're never coming back."

Joe Rogan 49:12 What is it about? Is it the paranoia?

Meghan Murphy 49:14 I, yeah, I feel paranoid.

Joe Rogan 49:16 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 49:16 I can't socialize. Like, I get super self-conscious, so if I smoke weed, I have to, like, stay home and lie on the couch and watch TV and eat candy, and that's not what I want to do with my life, like-

Joe Rogan 49:25 Hmm.

Meghan Murphy 49:25 ... I wanna be out and socializing or I wanna be productive. I wanna be able to work, and I can't do any of those things. Like, I... So, and I don't like the not knowing when it's gonna end. Like, I also, I don't like mushrooms 'cause I'm like, "Okay, this was fun for five minutes and now I feel weird and I don't have any control over this." Like, I think-

Joe Rogan 49:44 Oh.

Meghan Murphy 49:44 ... I wanna be in control.

Joe Rogan 49:46 A control thing, yeah.

Meghan Murphy 49:47 Um, like I, I also, like I don't like, uh, like MDMA 'cause it's just, and like, ugh, now I feel, like I feel, it makes me... It doesn't do what it does to a lot of other people. Like, it makes me feel antisocial and like I wanna go like sit in a corner-

Joe Rogan 50:04 Hmm.

Meghan Murphy 50:04 ... and then wait for it to be done. I think I like drinking because it's- it's social.

Joe Rogan 50:09 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 50:09 Like, I like going out with my friends and like, you know, laughing and being stupid and talking about stupid things and doing karaoke and like getting loose and wild and...

Joe Rogan 50:22 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 50:22 And I work, I work a lot. Like, I think people think I'm on (laughs) vacation all the time because I moved to a vacation town, and probably I post a lot of vacationy-looking photos, but I work, you know, five or six days a week. Like, I work until 2:00 AM. Like, if I'm working, I wake up at noon, mind you, but I... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:44 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 50:45 It's not that bad. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:46 The grind continues as the alarm goes off-

Meghan Murphy 50:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:50 ... and people are eating lunch. (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 50:53 Ugh. And so it was dark. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:55 Is this because you're up late writing?

Meghan Murphy 50:56 Yeah, like I work until-

Joe Rogan 50:57 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 50:57 ... 2:00 AM and then you're wired 'cause you've been working, so then you, I like watch a show.

Joe Rogan 51:01 I do my best writing at night.

Meghan Murphy 51:02 Yeah, I write at 10:00 PM.

Joe Rogan 51:04 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 51:04 Um, and, and then, yeah, and then I'll like try to unwind, so I'll like watch a show, so I end up getting to bed at like 3:00, 4:00 AM-

Joe Rogan 51:14 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 51:14 ... if I'm working.

Joe Rogan 51:15 Which makes sense. You wake up at noon.

Meghan Murphy 51:17 Yeah, like and I-

Joe Rogan 51:17 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 51:17 ... need eight or nine hours of sleep. I honestly do. Like if I get less than that, I feel like shit. My brain doesn't work. My job is-

Joe Rogan 51:23 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 51:23 ... brain-related. Like I have-

Joe Rogan 51:24 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 51:24 ... to be able to function. I eat badly, like I don't wanna work out. Like if I'm tired, my day is fucked.

Joe Rogan 51:30 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 51:30 Um...

Joe Rogan 51:31 Most people eat badly if they don't get sleep. Isn't that interesting?

Meghan Murphy 51:34 Yeah, like it's like you crave junk food-

Joe Rogan 51:36 Bad food, yeah.

Meghan Murphy 51:36 Like you ch- crave sugar and like white bread.

Joe Rogan 51:39 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 51:40 Um, so it's just, yeah, it's bad all around but-

Joe Rogan 51:42 There's some sort of a reason for that. They- they've, there's, uh, they've isolated some reason for why people make poor decisions w- with food when they're tired.

Meghan Murphy 51:54 Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there is because I've, it's always been like that for me.

Joe Rogan 51:58 Oh, it's totally different for me.

Meghan Murphy 51:58 Like I remember, like when I had an office job, you know, and I had to be at work at 8:00 in the morning or whatever, I would spend the whole day drinking like sugar coffees and then-

Joe Rogan 52:07 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 52:07 ... I'd want like a cookie.

Joe Rogan 52:08 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 52:09 And I'd buy like some pastry thing at the cafe. Like, it's, yeah, I mean, I guess it's your body trying to keep you up, like, and I don't really eat that stuff very often now.

Joe Rogan 52:20 Kinda kills your judgment too. There's something about it. It's like it kills your ability to form, make good decisions.

Meghan Murphy 52:27 Yeah. I feel like, I feel like office life is like so unhealthy. I think it works for some people. For me, it was, like it made me super depressed, I felt tired all the time, I ate badly, and like I would get to Friday and be so done that I'd be like, "Go party." And then you party all weekend and you get to Sunday night and you're depressed and you have to go back to work again.

Joe Rogan 52:48 Well, here's the thing that people are pushing back a- against a lot is, um, the idea of, uh, doing remote office work. Like, um, there's a lot of people that feel like they're more productive at home, and then there's a lot of other people who feel like their employees need to be in the office 'cause that's the only way they can keep track of their, you know, w- whether or not they're being effective or whether or not they're- they're actually working. One of the things we found out during the pandemic is how many guys jerk off while they're on Zoom calls. Like how many people-

Meghan Murphy 53:18 Why are men so stupid?

Joe Rogan 53:20 ... got busted.

Meghan Murphy 53:20 Honestly? Sorry.

Joe Rogan 53:22 They're addicted.

Meghan Murphy 53:22 That's like a... They're addicted to jerking off?

Joe Rogan 53:25 Yeah, they're addicted to porn.

Meghan Murphy 53:25 Is it that they're looking at... Oh, they're looking at porn.

Joe Rogan 53:27 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 53:30 Gross. And-

Joe Rogan 53:31 Yeah, I think it's, uh, they're also, they're, when-

Meghan Murphy 53:36 Like, I'm like, "Why are you getting horny on a Zoom call?"

Joe Rogan 53:40 Yeah, it's not even horny. It's a, it's an, it's like addict behavior. That's what that is.

Meghan Murphy 53:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:44 Like if you're, like if you're a disciplined person and you're working, you should be working, right?

Meghan Murphy 53:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:48 You're working, you're on a Zoom call, but I think that whatever work is so fucking boring or s- they're not really connected to it, so they're like, "I'm just gonna mute my camera over here and whack one off real quick." And maybe they think it's exciting to be able to jerk off-

Meghan Murphy 54:00 Like if it's risk-taking behavior.

Joe Rogan 54:01 ... while other people are talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meghan Murphy 54:03 Yeah. It's like secret and they're bad-

Joe Rogan 54:05 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 54:05 ... and the shame and it's all wrapped up in that.

Joe Rogan 54:07 Yeah. There's something to that. But I mean, like a lot of people got busted.

Meghan Murphy 54:12 And then keep doing it. I mean, guys watch porn at the library, like at the public library and like on the plane, which if I weren't, you know, a libertarian now, I'm sort of joking, I don't identify as libertarian, I would m- say that should be illegal. Like it's like you can't watch porn in public.

Joe Rogan 54:30 Have you seen people watch porn on a plane? Really?

Meghan Murphy 54:32 No, but I've seen other people see other people watch porn.

Joe Rogan 54:35 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 54:35 I've seen it on the internet, okay? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:37 A friend of mine, uh, opened his laptop and-

Meghan Murphy 54:39 I would be so upset if I saw a man watching porn on the, like I would, I don't know what I would do.

Joe Rogan 54:44 Is it... It's not legal, right? What are the laws at 30,000 feet? Does that count?

Meghan Murphy 54:51 I-

Joe Rogan 54:51 What are the laws?

Meghan Murphy 54:51 I assumed it was legal.

Joe Rogan 54:53 What are the laws up there in the sky?

Meghan Murphy 54:54 Like can you-

Joe Rogan 54:55 You know, we have different laws.

Meghan Murphy 54:55 It's not... I don't know if it's illegal to watch porn at the library 'cause men do it.

Joe Rogan 55:00 It's, I- I- I don't think that's legal.

Meghan Murphy 55:02 They might kick them out it-

Joe Rogan 55:03 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 55:03 ... 'cause they, like be like, "You're gross."

Joe Rogan 55:05 Upsentation laws.

Meghan Murphy 55:05 Or if they tried to like-... whip out their-

Joe Rogan 55:08 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 55:09 ... genitals. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:11 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 55:12 Their, their gender-neutral genitals.

Joe Rogan 55:13 But you know how there's, like, different laws if you're out in the middle of the ocean?

Meghan Murphy 55:17 Okay.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Is there different laws in space?

Meghan Murphy 55:19 (laughs) I don't know the answer to this question.

Joe Rogan 55:22 Right? Like, I wonder-

Meghan Murphy 55:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:23 ... if the laws are exactly the same when you're at 30,000 feet?

Meghan Murphy 55:29 That's a good question because where... Are you still in-

Joe Rogan 55:32 Right, are you still in America?

Meghan Murphy 55:32 Like, are you in America or are you in the ocean? Like, if you're over the ocean-

Joe Rogan 55:37 Right, what is that? What laws apply?

Meghan Murphy 55:39 Maybe it's up to the business. Like, maybe it's according to, like-

Joe Rogan 55:43 Right.

Meghan Murphy 55:43 ... American Airlines gets to decide whether or not you're allowed to watch porn on the plane. Oh.

Joe Rogan 55:49 Here it is. "Although some systems of national law still adhere to the view that ships and aircraft are part of the territory of the state the nationality of which they possess, this is merely a crude metaphor. In international law, a distinction has been made between three types of state jurisdiction, territorial jurisdiction over national territory and all persons and things therein; quasi-territorial jurisdiction over national ships and aircraft and all persons and things thereon; and personal jurisdiction over all other nationals and all persons under a state's protection as well as their property. In case of conflict, territorial jurisdiction overrides quasi-territorial jurisdiction and personal jurisdiction while quasi-territorial jurisdiction overrides personal jurisdiction." Okay, so there's, like, tiers. Mkay. Territorial di- jurisdiction over national territory. So, but th- that does mean that in cases of conflict, that territorial jurisdiction overrides it. So, that means that if you are over the United States of America, that is territorial jurisdiction-

Meghan Murphy 57:00 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:00 ... 'cause it's territorial. So, like, when you're in the ocean, that makes sense. That's nobody's. Which is really kinda interesting, right? It's like we, we allow people to own everything, but you can't own the ocean. But you kind of.

Meghan Murphy 57:10 Yeah, I mean, technically, technically you're not allowed to own a beach.

Joe Rogan 57:15 Yeah, but w-

Meghan Murphy 57:15 In Canada, anyways. Is that true in the US too? It is, right? Is it?

Joe Rogan 57:18 You, well-

Meghan Murphy 57:18 But be, but you can still... You can buy up all the property close to the beach and then, like, build, like, a fence so that people can't get through, but you can't, like... Uh, my parents live on a small Gulf island and I went to... And, y- you know, like, you... In BC and on these islands, you can go to beaches and there's nobody else there. It's awesome, and it's, like, super beautiful. The forests are beautiful. The mountains are beautiful, blah, blah, blah. But I went to this one beach and there's a path down to the beach, and it says, "No trespassing. Private property," but it's like, "Well, it's a beach. I'm gonna go to the beach." And so we're down at the beach and the chick who owns the property comes down and is like, "You know, like, you're not allowed..." Like, you're basically... You're allowed to come to the beach via a boat, but you're not allowed to walk down her path to the beach, so she's essentially created a private beach. She's like, "How did you get here?" Like, "You guys aren't allowed to walk through this place." And we're like, "Oh, no, we're just gonna swim back." (laughs) Like...

Joe Rogan 58:12 Yeah. It's weird. People don't own the beach, but you do own everything above high tide. You can own above high tide. That's how it is in Malibu. So, I have a friend who has a place in Malibu, and, uh, he was telling me that his sons were surfing and they were in this area, and th- this guy didn't know that they were his sons. So, the guy comes out and starts screaming and yelling at them to get the fuck off the beach. And, you know, he got mad at the guy and then, you know, there's this conflict and the guy realized, "Oh, you live here. Okay, these are your sons." But you're not allowed to yell at people to surf. Like, if pe-

Meghan Murphy 58:48 No, god.

Joe Rogan 58:48 'Cause they were laughing and surfing in front of this guy's house, so he thought because he spent $10 million on this house, he should be able to tell people, "You can't surf in front of my house." But there's been cases in Malibu where they hire private security so that you know what... Uh, I think it's called Billionaire's Beach, like Carbon Beach. It's these people that have all this money buy these houses and then they hire private security to kick people off the beach, but they can't. You're not allowed to. So then, there's lawsuits where people sue the people who kicked them off the beach. And I don't know how they resolve that, but I know it's ongoing. And technically, the people that are the beachgoers are correct.

Meghan Murphy 59:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:29 You, you, you can't keep people off the beach. It's everybody's.

Meghan Murphy 59:32 Yeah. It's just, it's just the getting there part that is technically illegal. But of course, these people do feel entitled and they're like, "This is my private beach." Like, "What are you doing on my private beach?"

Joe Rogan 59:42 Listen, if you wanna buy a fucking place, and you wanna buy a place that's on the water, that is what comes with the territory.

Meghan Murphy 59:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:48 People can-

Meghan Murphy 59:48 It's the ocean.

Joe Rogan 59:49 ... camp out right in front of your fucking house.

Meghan Murphy 59:50 Like, people can do whatever-

Joe Rogan 59:52 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 59:52 ... they want with the ocean.

Joe Rogan 59:53 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 59:53 Like, you don't get to own that.

Joe Rogan 59:54 The problem is if, like, you know, if you have a bedroom and you like to keep your windows open so you could hear the waves crash and then you have people right below you and they're fucking partying, playing shitty music and...

Meghan Murphy 1:00:05 Too bad, bro. That's what you get for being rich.

Joe Rogan 1:00:07 Wow. Listen, man.

Meghan Murphy 1:00:08 (laughs) I'm joking.

Joe Rogan 1:00:09 I hope you don't get rich.

Meghan Murphy 1:00:10 I hope to be rich someday.

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 What is this, Jamie?

Narrator 1:00:12 That's it. Yeah, I just, I just picked the, that beach, Banner Beach.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 Is that Carbon Beach?

Narrator 1:00:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 See, that's beautiful, but I think... So, I think where the people aren't allowed to go is wherever high tide is. So, I think high tide is, like, right up to there.

Meghan Murphy 1:00:26 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 So, when that area, like, walking on the beach, anybody can go there. They can go there. They can play. They can fuck around. But I think above that, it's supposed to be theirs, the person who's in front of the be- which is, like, still kind of fucked.

Meghan Murphy 1:00:39 This is so strange looking to me because I'm, I don't, I've not seen... Like, this isn't a thing in BC where the houses on the beach are just stacked up like townhouses. Like-

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 Oh, they're right next to each other and they, like-

Meghan Murphy 1:00:49 If you have a place on the beach, like, on the island, you're, it's gonna be, like, in the forest and, like, you have acreage and...

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 Well, Malibu's a weird spot like that because there's so much money. There's... And these people are so rich, and they're stuffed right next to each other. It's real weird.

Meghan Murphy 1:01:04 It seems unpleasant to me.

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 I rented a house there once, um, uh, because, uh, my kitchen was getting redone, and it wasn't bad because you don't notice that people are there because it's so loud. You hear whoosh!... you hear the, the water crashing against the, the rocks and everything a- all day long. And it really is beautiful. Like, in the morning, I would eat breakfast. We were only there for a couple of months, but I would eat breakfast in the morning and the way w- we were at... We were at a, on this place that had like a deck, and the water was almost under the deck. So, when you sit there eating breakfast, it's like you're on the water.

Meghan Murphy 1:01:37 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 I was like, "Oh, this is nice."

Meghan Murphy 1:01:39 That does sound nice.

Joe Rogan 1:01:39 It's nice.

Meghan Murphy 1:01:41 Like, (laughs) this is terrible. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 It's nice. Oh, it's so nice.

Meghan Murphy 1:01:43 I would never want this. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 To be a b- that... But that, to me, is... It's a very specific thing, like the kind of... like what I like. I like to be, like, i- almost in the water.

Meghan Murphy 1:01:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 Almost in the water is beautiful.

Meghan Murphy 1:01:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 It's... 'Cause I got to look out, I'm seeing like dolphins, I was watching like seagulls swim around and shit, and fly overhead. I'm like, "This is nice."

Meghan Murphy 1:02:04 Being near the ocean is the best.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 Me too.

Meghan Murphy 1:02:06 I mean, I... Where did you grow up?

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 Well, I grew up all over the place. I was born in New Jersey, but I only lived there til I was seven. I lived in San Francisco from seven to 11.

Meghan Murphy 1:02:17 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:17 And then I lived in Florida from 11 to 13, and then I lived in Boston for the rest of the time.

Meghan Murphy 1:02:23 Like s-... I was born in Vancouver and grew up in Vancouver, so I was always near the beach. We did a lot of camping. I always swam. Like, I would bike to Kit's Pool every day all summer, which is right on the ocean. And now, like, the... I wouldn't... The idea of... I live in a beach town now. I would never live somewhere... Or, I think I would feel, uh, uh, almost like depressed living somewhere where there was no ocean, or I would feel trapped. Like, I, I... It's almost like a claustrophobic feeling. Like... And lakes don't cut it. It can't just be a body of water. It has to be the ocean that I can see and access.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 That's what you like?

Meghan Murphy 1:02:58 And I don't even go in the ocean.

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 Why?

Meghan Murphy 1:03:02 Well, in Sayulita (laughs) ... I mean, I, I did in Vancou-... Like, I have been in the ocean. But it's not like in Sayulita. I... Like, I don't go to the beach in Sayulita.

Joe Rogan 1:03:11 No?

Meghan Murphy 1:03:12 Partly 'cause I'm inside my house until it gets dark. Um, but (laughs) ... like, I don't wanna... I'm not like a lie-out-in-the-sun kinda person. I'm pale.

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 1:03:23 I have a spray tan right now, so that's why I'm looking so... (laughs) I probably look-

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 Even when you're spray-tanned-

Meghan Murphy 1:03:28 ... almost like a normal human being.

Joe Rogan 1:03:30 ... you're many degrees lighter than me, even with your spray tan.

Meghan Murphy 1:03:33 I know. That's part of the joke.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 That's that Irish... Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 1:03:35 But I'm not gonna go lie out in the sun because I'm just gonna get-

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 Yeah. Cooked.

Meghan Murphy 1:03:39 ... like, skin damage and sweat. And I can't... Like, I work in the day. Like I've, I was saying before, like, I d-... I r- work a lot. Like, if I wake up, I'm working until 2:00 AM.

Joe Rogan 1:03:49 Right.

Meghan Murphy 1:03:49 Every day, except for Thursdays, 'cause that's karaoke night. Um, but... And the... (laughs) The ocean-

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 (laughs) I need to go see you do karaoke.

Meghan Murphy 1:03:57 I'm not very good, but I really like it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 (laughs) I think that's part of the fun of karaoke-

Meghan Murphy 1:04:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 ... is sucking at it.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:02 But, I mean, it's no fun if everybody's good.

Joe Rogan 1:04:04 Right.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:04 You're supposed to be bad and like y- yell. Like...

Joe Rogan 1:04:07 It's kinda sad when they are good.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:09 Well, yeah. It's sad if people take it seriously, is what's sad.

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 Yeah. It's sad if they take it seriously.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:13 Like, if you're good, but you just happen to be good and you're still kinda joking around, you're not taking yourself seriously, fine. But if you take it really seriously, I think that's embarrassing and depressing.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 It's like an un- untapped-potential thing.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:23 You're like, "This is my skill in life."

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:26 Like, well, nobody... everybody else here is just here to have fun and like scream into the microphone with their friends.

Joe Rogan 1:04:31 I mean, it doesn't have to be sad. L- let me e- expand on that. It's just sad if that's your moment. It's... Y- you know what's sad? Unrealized dreams. That's what's sad. If you really wanted to be a musician-

Meghan Murphy 1:04:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 ... and karaoke is the place where you get to flex your muscles, like shoo, but then you go back to the factory in the morning, that's sad.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:49 Yeah. Or you wanted to be a pop star.

Joe Rogan 1:04:51 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:51 Like, you wanted to be famous.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 1:04:54 And it's sad because you're behaving as though you think that you're more talented than you actually are. And I'm not sure if deep down inside you believe it, but you kinda project that. Like, you're like, "I take this really seriously 'cause I'm very good at it and I'm very talented, and I can't make a joke about this 'cause that would, like, hurt my ego."

Joe Rogan 1:05:13 I don't even know... I don't even know if it's a talent thing with music. I know so many talented people now living in Austin. Um, Austin is an amazing place to go see live music. It's really fucking cool. There's so much live music here. But what's stunning is you go to these bars, and there's like 15 people in, and you see this person on stage and they're fucking amazing.

Meghan Murphy 1:05:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 And you're like, "Oh."

Meghan Murphy 1:05:36 But it's an... It's the same thing with comedy. Like, there's so many amazing comedians who like never really made it. Right?

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 Sort of. Comedy today is more accessible. Like, comedians make it now more than ever before, talented people, which is great. They, they, they get on YouTube, and they put a, uh, like a video up on YouTube, like their own personal thing, and they'll get hundreds of thousands of views, millions of views. And-

Meghan Murphy 1:06:02 And do you make money off of that?

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 ... well, it's not just that. It's y- it's an advertisement for people to come see you in the clubs. That's really what it is. Like, all comedy specials are just to let y-... let everybody know, "Hey, this guy's good."

Meghan Murphy 1:06:13 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 You know, "Hey, look, she's doing it. This is it. You can watch her do this video and then see her when she's at the l- the local club or the local theater."

Meghan Murphy 1:06:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:20 That's what it is. And that's more accessible now than ever before, because the barrier for entry is not as, as steep, in, in that you don't need cooperation. Like, a musician needs a band, you know, u- unless you're acoustic and you just have a guitar, which is... that's a hard grind too, right?

Meghan Murphy 1:06:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:36 But if you are a comedian, you just need a comedy club. And e- there's so many comedy clubs, and everybody's working, you know? It's a lot... There's a lot of working comedians now.

Meghan Murphy 1:06:46 Like, but what does it mean to make it as a comedian? Like, what would make w- just... Is it that you're full-time job?

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 Be able to sell out. Yeah. Full-time job and to be able to sell out a club.

Meghan Murphy 1:06:54 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:06:55 Yeah. That's like a w- ... Like, w- when we think of like com-... Like-

Meghan Murphy 1:06:58 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:06:58 ... I, I had this conversation with these guys that, uh, opened for me the other day. Uh, I was telling them, I'm like, "You are already... You've b- gone over the hump."... the hardest part as being funny. I go, then it's all about continuing to work and continuing to write and continuing to get better and continuing to write new material. And then getting aligned with a group of other comedians that can help, 'cause that's a big thing in comedy is people take you on the road with you. Like I take these guys-

Meghan Murphy 1:07:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:07:26 ... on the road with me and I introduce them to the world. Like if people come to see me, you're gonna come to see me, but you're also going to get to see Tony Hinchcliffe. You're also gonna get to see Hans Cam (sp?) . You're gonna just get to see Joey Diaz. (coughs) And through that, you know, these guys have developed careers. So now they can go on the road. You know, like Tony sells out, like b- big ass comedy clubs and theaters and he's, he kills it when he goes on the road. And it's because he did all the right things and, you know, he's a perfect example. Like Tony self-produced his own special and then sold it to Netflix. He paid for it, did the whole thing.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:00 Didn't that happen to Chris, um-

Joe Rogan 1:08:04 DiStefano?

Meghan Murphy 1:08:05 Yeah. I really like him.

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Yeah, he's great.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:07 Like he just-

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 Yeah, he was just on my podcast.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:07 ... did his own-

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:09 ... and then Netflix bought it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:10 And Netflix bought it. Ari Shaffir did the same thing.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 He made his own special, Netflix bought it, and a lot of people do that.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 That's, uh ... It's, it's easier. I don't think it's easier to be a great comedian, but it's easier-

Meghan Murphy 1:08:23 No, that would be so hard. God.

Joe Rogan 1:08:24 It's easier to, if you are a great comedian, it's easier to make a living. I know, I have friends that are great musicians that are fucking just, uh, uh, just above poverty.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:36 Yeah, totally. I mean, there's lots of people who are great musicians and they just, they have to keep their day job and they do it in their free time-

Joe Rogan 1:08:45 It's hard.

Meghan Murphy 1:08:45 ... for fun, essentially.

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 It's hard because you have to bring people with you. You have to have like, like musicians, have to have fucking sound guys, you have to have a drummer and a guitar player and people that carry your stuff, roadies, and t- the trucks for all your shit and ...

Meghan Murphy 1:08:59 Yeah, but I think, I mean with musicians and music, it's like being good. Like people aren't gonna like your music just 'cause you're good, like just 'cause you're really talented. Just 'cause you're a really good musician, people aren't necessarily gonna wanna listen to it, and that's evidenced by the fact that so many p- people listen to like garbage, crap music.

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 Well, but isn't that just human taste? Like people like, uh-

Meghan Murphy 1:09:20 Or no taste.

Joe Rogan 1:09:21 Ha!

Meghan Murphy 1:09:21 I mean ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:23 (laughs) When I was younger, I used to think that way. I used to think that people didn't, who didn't like what I like, uh, are, were idiots.

Meghan Murphy 1:09:30 (laughs) Ha!

Joe Rogan 1:09:30 And people who like things that I hated were morons.

Meghan Murphy 1:09:32 But did you grow out of that?

Joe Rogan 1:09:33 Yeah, I grew out of that.

Meghan Murphy 1:09:34 Okay. Well, see how I do. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:35 I just, I have, as I've gotten older, I've looked for less conflict in life at every given opportunity. I just try to find less conflict. And one of the best ways is to not care what other people like. Like as long as they, like ... Like I'm not into mumble rap, but I have friends who love mumble rap. They like to smoke weed and listen to mumble rap. I'm like, "Okay." I used to be like, "What the fuck are you listening to? I don't understand a word this guy's saying." But now I'm like, "Okay."

Meghan Murphy 1:10:03 Okay. I understand that some people like different things than me.

Joe Rogan 1:10:09 Yeah.

Meghan Murphy 1:10:09 Um, but I think when it comes to music ... Like there's some people who I think genuinely just aren't really into music, which offends me because I'm really into music and I love music. And people who sort of ... I feel like there's some people who just turn it on and it's noise and they're like, "This is the popular thing. I'm just gonna listen to it." That's what I mean by no taste. It's not like, um, people who are like ... I don't have anything against country. It's not what I listen to in my spare time, but I totally understand and respect why people like country music.

Joe Rogan 1:10:40 You don't like any country?

Meghan Murphy 1:10:40 And there's some that I like. No, I, there's some that I like. But it's-

Joe Rogan 1:10:42 Do you like Sturgill Simpson?

Meghan Murphy 1:10:43 I don't know who that is.

Joe Rogan 1:10:44 Say yes.

Meghan Murphy 1:10:45 You know what, dude? I was- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:10:47 (laughs)

Meghan Murphy 1:10:47 I was watching your podcast the other day and you didn't know who Wilco was.

Joe Rogan 1:10:50 I didn't.

Meghan Murphy 1:10:51 That's weird.

Joe Rogan 1:10:52 Why is it weird?

Meghan Murphy 1:10:53 Like I know who-

Joe Rogan 1:10:53 I know who it is now.

Meghan Murphy 1:10:54 Wilco's been around for a long time. They're a really well-known band.

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 Well, Bert had to tell me how, what a great story though-

Meghan Murphy 1:10:58 Yeah, beautiful. That was a beautiful story.

Joe Rogan 1:11:00 ... how, Bert was listening to that s-, listening to that music on headphones, riding a bike next to wild horses and crying because he was so happy 'cause it was such an amazing moment, 'cause the song was playing. I think he was buzzed too. He's always drunk.

Meghan Murphy 1:11:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:13 He's probably drunk. I can just assume when he s-

Meghan Murphy 1:11:15 He seems that way.

Joe Rogan 1:11:16 I am worried about him.

Meghan Murphy 1:11:17 Are you really?

Joe Rogan 1:11:18 His face looks like a cherry. He, I was watching, uh-

Meghan Murphy 1:11:20 Is he listening right now?

Joe Rogan 1:11:21 I hope so.

Meghan Murphy 1:11:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:22 I was watching Two Bears, One Cave the other day and, uh, Bert was on with Tom and Tom looks like a fucking athlete. He's like lost all this weight.

Meghan Murphy 1:11:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:29 He's fit, he works out twice a day now, and Bert has assumed all of Tom's bad habits and, and r- ramped his up as well.

Meghan Murphy 1:11:37 Why do you think that is? I mean, if you don't feel comfortable, you don't have to talk specifically about him, but like-

Joe Rogan 1:11:41 About Bert?

Meghan Murphy 1:11:41 ... why do people, like people who sort of, who fall into alcoholism or not taking care of themselves, and maybe they did at some point and then they just stop 'cause I, and I say that, like I'm thinking of people that I know in my head. I'm not, I don't know Bert so I'm not talking about him, but like people who it's like you were sort of okay and now you're like a daily, like you get drunk every day.

Joe Rogan 1:12:08 Eh, I, uh, I don't know. I, uh, well, Bert likes to party.

Meghan Murphy 1:12:12 Well I like to party and that's never-

Joe Rogan 1:12:13 I can say that.

Meghan Murphy 1:12:14 And I-

Joe Rogan 1:12:14 It's a different kind of partying.

Meghan Murphy 1:12:14 I genuinely, like I, but I do, I love, like I love drinking, I love to party, but I'm super organized about it, like I'm super reg- Like I'm like I work all these days and then I can go out Thursday night, and I kinda try to like fuck off a bit on the