Joe Rogan Experience #1861 - Dave Mustaine

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music) Open up, come on. Dave, what's happening? How are you?

Dave Mustaine 0:15 Here we are finally, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:16 I'm excited to talk to you, man. You've had a wild ride for a life.

Dave Mustaine 0:20 I have. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:20 (laughs) You really have. I love people like you.

Dave Mustaine 0:22 But always kept my hands on the wheel.

Joe Rogan 0:24 Yeah. No, you, well, you, obviously, you're here, right?

Dave Mustaine 0:27 Yes, sir.

Joe Rogan 0:28 Yeah. And, what a fucking wi- wild ride though. I mean, everything. Your religious background, the, the, the, being in the first Metallica. I mean, it's pretty wild. What is it like, like looking back, does it seem, I, I mean, be- being a part of Megadeth and being a part of Metallica, like you're rock royalty.

Dave Mustaine 0:52 Thanks, thanks. I, uh, I, you know, uh, first off, thanks for having me on, to all your listeners.

Joe Rogan 0:56 My pleasure.

Dave Mustaine 0:57 And it's, uh, it's, uh, uh, I'm stoked to be here. And, uh, um, yeah, what was, what was it like? Uh, there's, there's so much to explain. Of course, you, you know, being in showbiz, that there's different degrees of, of, you know, how excited you can get. And then, if you have one of those days and it's like, "Ah, shit, it'll never be better than this." And then, you know, keep working hard, you keep applying yourself, associating with the right people, and, uh, there's always gonna be another level. My sensei, uh, out in California, used to train with Sensei Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. And he would say-

Joe Rogan 1:28 One of the all-time greats.

Dave Mustaine 1:30 Yeah, yeah. That's my first-

Joe Rogan 1:31 I love that guy.

Dave Mustaine 1:31 ... my first black belt came from Sensei Benny. Yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 1:33 That's amazing.

Dave Mustaine 1:34 ... yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:34 Were you at the Jet Center?

Dave Mustaine 1:35 Yeah, I was in ... I, I'm number 17, so-

Joe Rogan 1:37 When I went to California, that was one of the first places I went to. I wanted to go to The Comedy Store-

Dave Mustaine 1:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:41 ... and I wanted to go to the Jet Center.

Dave Mustaine 1:43 That got ruined in the earthquake in-

Joe Rogan 1:45 Yeah, I was there right afterwards.

Dave Mustaine 1:47 ... at Northridge. Oh, that's right.

Joe Rogan 1:47 And when the rains came-

Dave Mustaine 1:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:48 ... the, the roof was all fucked up, and they wound up having to close the place down.

Dave Mustaine 1:53 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:53 And then he had a place in North Hollywood for a while that I went to.

Dave Mustaine 1:55 Yeah, that was over by Vaughn's. I went there a couple times-

Joe Rogan 1:57 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 1:57 ... but it just didn't have the magic that the Jet Center did.

Joe Rogan 1:59 No, it didn't, right?

Dave Mustaine 2:00 You know, kn- knowing Bill "Superfoot" Wallace and Chuck Norris and all these greats had gone in there.

Joe Rogan 2:04 And Blinky Rodriguez.

Dave Mustaine 2:05 Blinky, Blinky-

Joe Rogan 2:06 Blinky was a beast.

Dave Mustaine 2:07 ... I was really close with Blinky. My wife, uh, had trained with S- Sensei Lilly Rodriguez too before her unfortunate passing.

Joe Rogan 2:13 I met her as well.

Dave Mustaine 2:14 Yeah, she was a badass. She beat- I-

Joe Rogan 2:16 When did she pass?

Dave Mustaine 2:17 Uh, she, uh, it was probably in the last 10 years or so. I remember that, uh, there was a lot of talk about her and June Castro at the time about, you know, who was the toughest. And she had fought June, and June broke her leg and, and I can't remember how long she had continued to, to, uh, uh, defend herself before she stopped. I think actually someone stopped it, but yeah, just amazing stories of resilience in that family. Really gave me a lot of encouragement and, and, uh, a lot of the drive to get out of the mess that I was, uh, n- no doubt going to end up in if I hadn't, you know, fallen in love with the art.

Joe Rogan 2:51 Found something like that.

Dave Mustaine 2:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:52 And what a great place to do it too because that, that family, those people, Benny, Blinky, Lilly, all those people that were attached to them too, that's a giant part of the history of kickboxing-

Dave Mustaine 3:05 Yes.

Joe Rogan 3:05 ... in America.

Dave Mustaine 3:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:07 I mean, they were the elite of the elite. Benny was the baddest motherfucker ever during his time.

Dave Mustaine 3:12 Yeah. Yes, he was.

Joe Rogan 3:12 People don't realize. You go back and watch those tapes of Benny Urquidez when he was young, like it's kind of like lost on some people for some reason. But he-

Dave Mustaine 3:20 It's, it's-

Joe Rogan 3:21 ... was phenomenal.

Dave Mustaine 3:22 It's, yeah. It's sad to watch how he dismantles people. There was a fight that I, I have on his tapes, I have all of his tapes, but, uh, one in particular that I really like, he'd gone to Thailand and he was, uh, fighting a guy. He said, "Look, I'll come to your country, fight your rules, you're champ, you're ring, whatever." And he went there and, you know, uh, all I can compare it to is in Star Wars where they have those guys with the big hat, you know, the big forehead, the Klingons, whatever they are.

Joe Rogan 3:47 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 3:48 And Sensei Benny had kicked him, uh, in, across his forehead with a shin kick so many times that his whole entire forehead just, uh, had this contusion on it, looked like, like he, almost like a Darth Vader helmet, you know, a- after he'd had his head ki... And it was, in a way I guess, you know, maybe he was taunting him a little bit, you know? Just, uh, um, you know, slapping him around on, on, on TV because it was in front of, uh, the, the whole nation had shown up there to, to watch this fight. But,

Dave Mustaine 4:18 uh, I, I, I guess he's had a lot of fights like that. I heard that the, the story about Frank Dux was actually about Sensei Benny too. Did you ever hear about that one?

Joe Rogan 4:26 No, well the Frank Dux thing was kind of a hoax, right? Like, he'd claimed to be a part of some-

Dave Mustaine 4:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:32 ... kumite that was proven to not really happen. Is that r- what, what was-

Dave Mustaine 4:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 4:37 ... the exact story?

Dave Mustaine 4:38 Okay. So, uh-

Joe Rogan 4:39 Because I know they tried to make it into Bloodsport, right?

Dave Mustaine 4:42 They did. Uh-

Joe Rogan 4:42 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 4:42 ... but it's not true.

Joe Rogan 4:43 But they tried to-

Dave Mustaine 4:44 So, well, from, from what I know, this is, this is what I know, uh, what I was told, so I don't know how accurate this is. But I heard from the people who participated in this whole thing, so... What had happened was, uh, the movie with Jean-Claude Van Damme, and, um, Frank Dux, uh, I was told that, uh, Frank Dux wasn't the guy who had actually, uh, been the fighter in that, and that it was Benny "The Jet" Urquidez. And that when, um, he had come home or something, he had his school in the Los Angeles area, Simi Valley area, somewhere like that. And, uh, uh, Sensei Ruben, uh, Benny's older brother, and, uh, Sensei, uh, Arnold, his other brother. He had nine brothers and sisters, they were all black belts.

Joe Rogan 5:26 Oh. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 5:27 And, um, his mother was a professional wrestler and his dad was a professional boxer, or vice versa. One was a boxer, one was a wrestler.

Joe Rogan 5:33 What a terrible house to break into.

Dave Mustaine 5:35 Oh my God-

Joe Rogan 5:35 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 5:35 You know, he, he, he, uh, B- uh, Sensei Benny used to tell me that when the kids would get in fights, the dad would say, "Go outside and fight barefoot in the stickers." And, and I thought, wow, that's (laughs) , talk about getting-

Joe Rogan 5:44 That's hardcore.

Dave Mustaine 5:45 ... toughened up. Yeah, 'cause he used to tell me he would get his teeth worked on without any, uh, novocaine, and, and I was saying-

Joe Rogan 5:50 Jesus.

Dave Mustaine 5:50 ... "Cleaning, right?" No, uh, they, they just, yeah. And, and, and so I was, that, I could, couldn't do that. I, I drive past denters- dentist offices and I get freaked out.

Joe Rogan 6:00 I know Benny participated in some kind of a mixed rules kumite ty- type situation and I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think it was in Hawaii. See if you can find that out, Jamie.

Dave Mustaine 6:12 The, the story with Dux though, when, when Ar- Arnold and, and, uh, Ruben, um, they had gone to Frank Dux's school and they ... Th- this is what the family told me, they walked in, they locked the door, there was a student or two there, they told them, "You need to leave." The students left and they went in the back office of Frank's dojo ... Now this is what I heard, you know, and, and I, and I'm not saying this to draw Frank Dux out of, uh, retirement or anything like that, you know, that, that's, that's just what I heard, um, is that, uh, when Ar- uh, Arnold and Ruben went in there, he, he freaked out and kinda lost control of himself and, and, uh, that they had words and, and fortunately there were no fisticuffs, but that was the story. And, uh, so when I watched it again, it was really neat to think that, you know, Jean-Claude Van Damme was portraying Sensei Benny instead of this other person.

Joe Rogan 7:05 So I'm confused about the story. So Benny and someone else went to visit Frank Dux?

Dave Mustaine 7:11 Ruben, Ruben and Arnold went there because it was Benny's story.

Joe Rogan 7:15 Oh, I see. So Ruben and Arnold went there to confront Frank Dux 'cause Frank Dux had ripped off Benny's story?

Dave Mustaine 7:20 Right. That's what I was told.

Joe Rogan 7:22 So this, this is, th- and this is Benny's story that was about the kumite that we'd-

Dave Mustaine 7:26 Yes.

Joe Rogan 7:26 But it wasn't a real story. I mean, did he really rip off a story? It's just, he kinda made something up, right? He just made it up.

Dave Mustaine 7:31 Well, I'm not saying he ripped anything off. I, what I'm saying is that's what I was told the story was about.

Joe Rogan 7:35 Hmm.

Dave Mustaine 7:35 That, that it wasn't Frank, it was Benny.

Joe Rogan 7:37 I knew a dude who faked a kumite. It's a crazy story. He, uh, he told (laughs) his friend to drive him to the woods and he said, and, uh, "Come back in a day. I'm, I'm fighting in, like, a secret karate tournament."

Dave Mustaine 7:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:50 So he goes off in the rue w- and he brings a bag with him.

Dave Mustaine 7:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:53 Right? Like a duffle bag?

Dave Mustaine 7:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:55 And then, uh, guy comes back a day later to pick them up and no duffle bag, but now he's got a trophy the same size as the bag. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 8:03 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 8:03 So he s- he said, he said he won a karate tournament in the woods. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 8:07 Did he take the trophy out there? Bring it back?

Joe Rogan 8:09 Yes.

Dave Mustaine 8:10 What a dog.

Joe Rogan 8:11 But I mean, it's, it's hilarious how c- but people don't understand, I think, that before the UFC-

Dave Mustaine 8:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:16 ... before we got to watch mixed martial arts, meaning, like, an Aikido guy could fight a Judo guy, or a wrestler guy could fight a karate guy, before we saw that, we didn't know what was the best art.

Dave Mustaine 8:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:27 We didn't know.

Dave Mustaine 8:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:28 And th- there was a lot of, like, speculation, but very few mixed rules engagements. Like, there was Judo Gene LeBell fought a boxer once and he made the boxer wear a gi.

Dave Mustaine 8:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:40 And just took him to the ground and strangled him unconscious.

Dave Mustaine 8:42 Ali used something like that.

Joe Rogan 8:43 Yeah, there's Ali and Inoki.

Dave Mustaine 8:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:45 They had that weird thing where Inoki's on his back and he's kicking him in the legs.

Dave Mustaine 8:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:49 But there was very few of those, so we w- you could have room for, like, some person who pretends that they've fought overseas, there was no internet back then-

Dave Mustaine 8:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:58 ... some person who fought and, you know, beat the world in some sort of a, you know, to the death tournament.

Dave Mustaine 9:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:04 So there was a lot of those kooks out there.

Dave Mustaine 9:05 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:05 So that story, I mean, that's not even really based on Frank Dux's s- version of what he says happened.

Dave Mustaine 9:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:14 It's just kinda Hollywood corny, right? So ...

Dave Mustaine 9:16 Yeah. Well, that, that happens with a lot of those movies. So ...

Joe Rogan 9:19 Yeah, obviously. But just when it comes-

Dave Mustaine 9:21 I like what-

Joe Rogan 9:21 ... to reality though, like, Benny Urquidez was, uh, he was a, a real important force in the early days of kickboxing.

Dave Mustaine 9:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:28 Particularly in America.

Dave Mustaine 9:29 I was just gonna s- the ... M- one of my favorite, um, uh, martial art choreography, um, uh, things that he'd ever done was with Road House, um, you know, he d-

Joe Rogan 9:38 Oh, he choreographed that?

Dave Mustaine 9:40 Yeah, I skydived with Patrick Swayze and I knew that he was, uh, Dalton in Road House, and there was a couple moves at the very end, you know, when he's attacking that other guy, the bad guy? And he, he does this cross punch on the inside of his knees and blows out the guy's knees and I, and I thought, "Ah, I just learned that last week," you know?

Joe Rogan 9:57 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 9:57 So it was really cool to see this stuff applied in this, uh, almost, you know, like, fight to the death kumite.

Joe Rogan 10:03 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 10:04 Uh, so I, I mean, I don't know how many people know what kumite means, uh, so I'm, for people who don't know what that means, it's a death match, so, um, I know there's going to be some people out there that aren't gonna know exactly what that means.

Joe Rogan 10:14 I think the word kumite-

Dave Mustaine 10:16 The red sash is-

Joe Rogan 10:16 ... just means sparring.

Dave Mustaine 10:17 Yeah, it's-

Joe Rogan 10:17 It just means fighting.

Dave Mustaine 10:18 The, um, the red sash, uh, oh God, what is that called? When they, uh, what is, what is the word when they go, uh, two guys go, one comes back? That's a death match.

Joe Rogan 10:29 Do they have those? Or have they had those?

Dave Mustaine 10:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:31 I'm sure people have had them.

Dave Mustaine 10:32 Yeah, of course they do.

Joe Rogan 10:32 I'm sure over the course of history-

Dave Mustaine 10:34 Of course they do.

Joe Rogan 10:34 ... people have decided to, to karate fight to the death.

Dave Mustaine 10:38 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 10:38 I'm sure they did.

Dave Mustaine 10:39 Yeah, they had-

Joe Rogan 10:39 But I think the word kumite doesn't mean that though, I think it just means fighting.

Dave Mustaine 10:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:43 Right?

Dave Mustaine 10:43 Well, that's what I was asking you.

Narrator 10:45 Oh, yeah.

Dave Mustaine 10:45 So ...

Joe Rogan 10:46 Yeah, I'm pretty sure it does. You know, I, that's a Japanese word. I came from a Korean martial art background originally, so I don't know that much about it. Kumite, f- martial arts freestyle fighting. So sparring?

Dave Mustaine 10:59 Literally sparring.

Joe Rogan 11:00 Okay.

Dave Mustaine 11:00 What does death match say?

Joe Rogan 11:02 (laughs) Is there a, a Japanese term for karate death match?

Dave Mustaine 11:07 Ah. I had heard of it one time, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:07 That'd be a good name for a band.

Dave Mustaine 11:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:09 Karate Death Match. What year-

Dave Mustaine 11:14 Get that website.

Joe Rogan 11:14 What d- what year did you start martial arts?

Dave Mustaine 11:17 I was 12.

Joe Rogan 11:18 Wow.

Dave Mustaine 11:19 I was 12. I was, uh-

Joe Rogan 11:20 So you, you have a black belt in karate, right?

Dave Mustaine 11:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:24 You have a black belt in what else?

Dave Mustaine 11:25 In Taekwondo, yeah, for two years.

Joe Rogan 11:26 In TaeKwonDo and you have a purple belt in Jujitsu?

Dave Mustaine 11:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:29 That's-

Dave Mustaine 11:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:30 That's a very impressive resume. That's really amazing.

Dave Mustaine 11:33 Yeah. I've, I've managed to be really smart and stay out of a lot of trouble too, and, and, and those were one of the things that Sensei Benny told me when we first started working together was, you know, "When a guy's coming down the street and he doesn't look like he's your friend, change sides of the street. If he changes sides of the street, turn around." You know? I, I, I don't go looking for trouble anymore. There was a period in my life where, you know, that kinda, uh, m- people, uh, those kind of people and that kinda stuff was, you know, go out, get drunk, cause some problems. We lived down in Huntington Beach, you know, all the surf kids would go down there and fight people from another neighborhood or another school or something stupid like that, but ...

Joe Rogan 12:10 A lot of tough guys came from Huntington Beach.That's where-

Dave Mustaine 12:12 I-

Joe Rogan 12:12 ... Tank Abbott came from. That's where, uh, Tito Ortiz came from Huntington Beach.

Dave Mustaine 12:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:17 Just a lot of guys.

Dave Mustaine 12:18 Yeah. There was a guy there when I went to high school there named Polo. He was a, a, one of a bunch of Samoans that were down there. And I remember, I was at a kegger party one night and, and some guy hit him right in the face with a crowbar, and he did not move.

Joe Rogan 12:32 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 12:32 And I thought, "Oh my God." It was one of those, you know, those hexagonal crowbars, you know?

Joe Rogan 12:37 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Dave Mustaine 12:38 It wasn't like a, like a tire iron-

Joe Rogan 12:40 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 12:40 ... where you just turn the knobs, and he just whacked him, and I thought, "Somebody's gonna die." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:46 Jesus Christ. Yeah, some people can take inhumane punishment. Like, it's, uh, a superhuman, like I've, I've seen Mark Hunt in the early days. Like Crow Cop kicked him in the head. C- Crow Cop kicks people to just go unconscious. Crow Cop kicked him in the head, he just sort of fell down, got right back up, and everybody was like, "How?"

Dave Mustaine 13:03 Hey, did you ever know a guy named Mark Carr?

Joe Rogan 13:05 Mark Carr?

Dave Mustaine 13:06 They used to call him The Specimen.

Joe Rogan 13:08 Mark Kerr.

Dave Mustaine 13:09 Kerr.

Joe Rogan 13:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave Mustaine 13:09 Kerr, Kerr, Kerr, Kerr, Kerr.

Joe Rogan 13:10 Yes.

Dave Mustaine 13:10 Mark Kerr, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:11 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He was, uh, in the early days of the UFC.

Dave Mustaine 13:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:15 I was at some- a couple of his fights. Definitely one, where he tapped a guy by shoving his chin into his eye socket.

Dave Mustaine 13:22 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:23 He got on top of the guy, and I think it was, uh, Ron Waterson- Ron Waterman? Ron Waterman. He- so Mark Kerr gets on top of him, and he's, like, grabbing the back of his head and he shoves his chin into the guy's eye socket.

Dave Mustaine 13:36 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:37 And the dude taps. I was like, "That- that's effective."

Dave Mustaine 13:40 He's a big guy.

Joe Rogan 13:42 (laughs) He was huge.

Dave Mustaine 13:42 Yeah. I- I remember we hung out for a little while and, and, uh, he was staying at my pad in, in Scottsdale.

Joe Rogan 13:49 Oh, really?

Dave Mustaine 13:49 Yeah. There was a time, uh, he was, uh, getting himself, uh, straightened out and, and, you know, um, he knew that I had a history in- got my-

Joe Rogan 13:58 Was this after The Smashing Machine documentary?

Dave Mustaine 14:01 I think so.

Joe Rogan 14:02 Did you ever see it?

Dave Mustaine 14:03 I- I heard of it.

Joe Rogan 14:04 The documentary's-

Dave Mustaine 14:05 And I might have seen some of it.

Joe Rogan 14:06 It's wild.

Dave Mustaine 14:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:07 It's wild. It sh- it, it, it t- what they were trying to do... Like, oftentimes in documentaries, like, they'll start following someone with a very specific ad- objective, but then the whole world changes.

Dave Mustaine 14:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:19 Like, and this- that's- this one is one of those.

Dave Mustaine 14:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:21 They were following him because he was this, like, unstoppable force that was fighting in Pride-

Dave Mustaine 14:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:25 ... that looked like a superhero.

Dave Mustaine 14:26 Mm-hmm. And this is-

Joe Rogan 14:27 And he s-

Dave Mustaine 14:27 ... the one where it shows all the shooting, and there was-

Joe Rogan 14:29 Exactly.

Dave Mustaine 14:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:29 And then during that time period, they got to realize, oh my God, this guy's addicted to painkillers.

Dave Mustaine 14:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:33 Like, hardcore. Like, he's really falling apart, and he falls apart during the filming of the documentary.

Dave Mustaine 14:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:39 It's like this, this-

Dave Mustaine 14:41 Sad.

Joe Rogan 14:42 ... yeah, hellscape of addiction. And they didn't intend to capture that. They intended just to capture him dominating-

Dave Mustaine 14:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:49 ... what, like he was. But he was a freak.

Dave Mustaine 14:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:51 That guy was so fucking big. When you would see him-

Dave Mustaine 14:55 He was.

Joe Rogan 14:55 Pull up a picture of Mark Kerr in his prime. He was one of the most preposterous guy, and he was like a very, very... There he is. Look at that. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 15:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:04 I mean, it doesn't even look like a human.

Dave Mustaine 15:06 So, so let me tell you this thing.

Joe Rogan 15:07 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 15:07 Mark... See that picture on the right? Let's look at that one right there, where he's screaming.

Joe Rogan 15:10 He's so jacked.

Dave Mustaine 15:11 He- my wife came out one night, it was around Halloween, he was staying with us, and she heard this noise in our kitchen. And there was this pantry that had a bunch of shelves and all of the Halloween candy had been stuck up on the top shelf so our kids wouldn't eat it. So she goes in the kitchen and she sees that guy inside the pantry on the top shelf pulling down the candy, 'cause they... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:31 (laughs) 'Cause he wanted candy. That's hilarious.

Dave Mustaine 15:33 Yeah. I don't know that I wouldn't have... Looked at him.

Joe Rogan 15:35 Look at the size of him.

Dave Mustaine 15:36 Candy!

Joe Rogan 15:36 He was so fucking big and so fast, too.

Dave Mustaine 15:39 Yeah. He was a good guy.

Joe Rogan 15:40 He w- he was a specimen.

Dave Mustaine 15:40 I, I hope he's still alive.

Joe Rogan 15:42 I don't know, uh, what's going on with him, but I had heard he cleaned himself up and-

Dave Mustaine 15:46 That's good.

Joe Rogan 15:47 ... I, I think he was selling cars for a while.

Dave Mustaine 15:49 That's good.

Joe Rogan 15:50 But, uh-

Dave Mustaine 15:50 Buy this or else.

Joe Rogan 15:52 Yeah. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 15:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:53 He was, he looks different. You know, he lost all that muscle mass. He's a much more normal looking big guy now.

Dave Mustaine 15:59 He was a big guy.

Joe Rogan 16:00 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 16:00 That's for sure.

Joe Rogan 16:02 Um, so how did we get on the subject of Mark Kerr?

Dave Mustaine 16:05 Just talking.

Joe Rogan 16:06 Yeah, I'm just trying to remember I had a point. Uh, but he's, um-

Dave Mustaine 16:09 Specimen. The movie.

Joe Rogan 16:10 ... that, that early, those early years, like, everyone was trying to figure out, like, what to do. It was interesting to see, like, the wrestlers come in and just start smashing people, and then kickboxers started to come in and kicking the wrestlers' legs, and then other people started figuring out how to tap people better in No Gi. It's like a-

Dave Mustaine 16:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:26 ... it's a wild, uh, sort of a journey from the early days of martial arts to where we are today.

Dave Mustaine 16:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:32 I don't think there's any-

Dave Mustaine 16:32 The development of it all.

Joe Rogan 16:34 What is this? Is that, oh, oh-

Narrator 16:35 That's Benny.

Joe Rogan 16:35 This is Benny "The Jet." "No rules concept with the greatest fighters on Earth. Karate meets Kung Fu." Oh, wow. So this is May 16th. What y- in the LA Sports Arena. What year was this?

Narrator 16:47 This would have been 1975. This is probably the third event-

Joe Rogan 16:49 Wow.

Narrator 16:49 ... the World Series of Martial Arts put on, I think.

Joe Rogan 16:52 "Winner takes all. Masters from Hawaii, Japan, the South Pacific, Thailand, and the US in full-contact combat, going for the knockout." Wow. Seven bucks for tickets.

Narrator 17:05 Got it.

Joe Rogan 17:05 12 bucks for ringside. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 17:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:08 Wow, man. Imagine a time machine going back to watch that. That, that'd be-

Narrator 17:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:12 ... pretty interesting.

Dave Mustaine 17:13 I watched one of his fights, the very last one in the... And I was such a, a bad spectator. I was, I was yelling because the guy that he was fighting, I can't remember his name, it was Tanaka, I think, or something like that, but... You know, there, there were certain rules for that, uh, and, you know, they, they were putting his head under the towel in the corner, and I heard that that was not, uh, legal, and, uh-

Joe Rogan 17:35 That they were what? What were they doing?

Dave Mustaine 17:37 Well, somebody said something to me that the guy was, uh, had his head under the towel and that they were doing something with him, um, in the corner during the fight. I, I don't know exactly what they were-

Joe Rogan 17:47 Oh, look, did, was this a fight with take-downs or did he just clinch?

Dave Mustaine 17:50 No, this is-

Narrator 17:50 This is just a-

Joe Rogan 17:51 This, what we're looking at right here. Who is this Benny versus?

Narrator 17:54 Bill Henderson.

Joe Rogan 17:55 Bill Henderson. And this is, what, what year was this?

Narrator 17:58 This was the-

Dave Mustaine 17:58 (laughs)

Narrator 17:59 This was from that fight that I just had the advertisement for. From-

Joe Rogan 18:01 Oh, really? This is the-

Narrator 18:03 ... LA, so 1975.

Joe Rogan 18:04 So, he took him down. So that was legal in this fight? So this isn't just a ki-

Narrator 18:09 Yeah. And then, and then wearing those karate gloves-

Dave Mustaine 18:10 But he never used this.

Joe Rogan 18:10 Oh, shit. Uh, it's really unfortunate that more people in America didn't get to see...... uh, Benny fight when that whole PKA karate thing was going on.

Dave Mustaine 18:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:23 You know, because like, people got to see a lot of fights where it was really just kind of like sloppy boxing with occasional kicks. And occasionally, they'd have a guy who was like really good, that was like a full, like Jerry Trimble, remember that guy?

Dave Mustaine 18:35 No.

Joe Rogan 18:35 He's, he's, he's bad motherfucker. Doing 360 roundhouse kicks and wheel kicks and everything like that.

Dave Mustaine 18:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:40 And he f- and then of course, Rick Rufus. And Rick Rufus was like the big American star-

Dave Mustaine 18:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:44 ... who could fight, you know, that style and knock a lot of people out with kicks.

Dave Mustaine 18:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:49 Like Rick Rufus was in his prime, he was phenomenal.

Dave Mustaine 18:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:52 And he was like probably the best of the Americans in terms of like the representation of like a full spectrum of martial arts techniques. Like, he could, uh, he fought Thai fights, he, he later learned how to fight with leg kicks. There's like one of the most famous kickboxing matches ever was his first fight against a Thai, 'cause he didn't know how to fight with leg kicks.

Dave Mustaine 19:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:13 And so he was fighting with the long pants on, he gets his legs kicked out, and that, like led to this big evolution between him and his brother, Duke, where they really figured out like, "Oh, this is the right way."

Dave Mustaine 19:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:22 Like, you have to use leg kicks. Like, leg kicks are a giant part of-

Dave Mustaine 19:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:26 ... martial arts that the karate people and the TaeKwonDo people didn't get.

Dave Mustaine 19:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:30 Like the Thais figured that out more than anybody. And the karate people had some of it that they used in Kyokushin and some other, but it wasn't, in terms of like its expression in kickboxing, nobody had figured out how to do it like the Thais. When you first started training, you said you were 12 years old?

Dave Mustaine 19:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:47 And what was the original martial art?

Dave Mustaine 19:48 It was, uh, Shorin-Ryu. And, uh, my brother-in-law was the chief of police in Stanton, California. And my dad and my mom got divorced when I was four, so consequently, I grew up with male role models, surrogate, uh, parenting and, and stuff like that. And, and, uh, right across the street from the police center was a YMCA that was, uh, having free karate lessons. And, and so I went, and, uh, that started it all. And, and, um, almost 61, so shoot, that's, you know, almost 50 years, so...

Joe Rogan 20:19 Wow.

Dave Mustaine 20:20 But it hasn't been consistent the whole time, because moving out to Arizona when I left Sensei Benny, it was, uh, it was really, uh, hard to find someone else to train with, because you know, you get spoiled. And, and the whole MMA thing hadn't hit.

Joe Rogan 20:33 Right.

Dave Mustaine 20:33 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:35 Yeah. Now that it's hit, it's like, there's places to train all over the country.

Dave Mustaine 20:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:38 Do you still watch the UFC?

Dave Mustaine 20:41 I, I do sometimes when I have the time. My, I, I, I love watching matches if I get the time, especially now that, you know, uh, going from practicing, uh, karate mainly to, you know, doing grappling and ground fighting stuff, that was part of the Ukidokan style was there was a little bit of jujitsu in it. But nothing like the extent that I've been studying now.

Joe Rogan 21:02 And you've been doing it now for how many years, jujitsu?

Dave Mustaine 21:04 Oh, I think maybe three, four years.

Joe Rogan 21:06 That's awesome.

Dave Mustaine 21:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:07 I love when people just pick stuff up new.

Dave Mustaine 21:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:10 You know, it's like, it's such a important part of life. And it's so, it's so rewarding-

Dave Mustaine 21:16 Right.

Joe Rogan 21:16 ... to learn some new thing, to get into some new thing.

Dave Mustaine 21:18 It is.

Joe Rogan 21:18 Especially some new thing like jujitsu that's actually like, physically good for you.

Dave Mustaine 21:21 Yeah. The other thing too, is, uh, over the years having the discipline with the arts, I'm not chasing my, my ... I want to, um, uh, you know, when you asked me how long it was, I actually had to think, "For how long it's been?" You know, 'cause it's, it's a way of life for me, and, and you know, the rent comes, and, um, you just show up and, and be a good student.

Joe Rogan 21:43 What was the first year you picked up a guitar?

Dave Mustaine 21:45 I was 13.

Joe Rogan 21:46 Oh. So right around the ti- same time you-

Dave Mustaine 21:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:48 ... first started doing martial arts?

Dave Mustaine 21:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:50 And what, like back then, what was the music that you were into? Like, what did you listen to?

Dave Mustaine 21:54 When I was 13, I had a very limited musical, uh, um, library. My sisters listened to a lot of Motown, my brother-in-laws listened to a lot of the, uh, uh, pop stuff that was in America at the time, Frankie Valli, and, and you know, Paul Revere & the Raiders and stuff. This is when I'm just a little kid.

Joe Rogan 22:12 Right.

Dave Mustaine 22:12 So it's, you know, Gary Puck and The Union Gap, and you know, all those old bands. Um, and it wasn't until my youngest sister, who's, uh, a little bit older than me started dating, um, that I got exposed to a little bit harder music. And, and that started with a little bit of, um, Deep Purple, and then, uh, Mott the Hoople, and a little bit of some David Bowie, and then we discovered KISS and, and Ted Nugent.

Joe Rogan 22:38 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 22:38 And, uh, the other one was, uh... KISS, Ted Nugent, who was the other band back then? Led Zeppelin. Those three. Yeah, that made all the difference in the world for me with the guitar.

Joe Rogan 22:47 And so when you first started getting into the guitar-

Dave Mustaine 22:50 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 22:50 ... were you taking any lessons? Or were you trying to learn on your own?

Dave Mustaine 22:54 I'm self-taught, so-

Joe Rogan 22:55 Oh.

Dave Mustaine 22:55 ... I, I, um, you know, I tried to do the lesson thing. Uh, I even tried it again, you know, a few years ago, and, and the guy that was trying to explain it to me, uh, he made it more confusing for me than-

Joe Rogan 23:10 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 23:10 ... than, you know, going into it. So I mean, for some people, lessons are, are, I think for most people, lessons are important. But if you've, if you've already figured out how to do it, don't unfigure it.

Joe Rogan 23:21 Yeah. Right. Like it, what I would imagine, like applying a system, like a, the, the system of notes to something that you've sort of intuitively picked up.

Dave Mustaine 23:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:31 Like, did you just, you figured out what sounds it makes while you're moving your fingers in different positions, and then you mimic the sounds you heard in albums? Like, how does one how to t- learn how to teach themselves how to play the guitar?

Dave Mustaine 23:44 I, I started with an acoustic and was plunking around a little bit on that. My sister played piano, and Joe, she was so awful.

Joe Rogan 23:49 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 23:50 It, it, I mean, uh, the music coming out of our apartment sounded like two cats having sex. And, and I, all I know is that, uh, there was an acoustic guitar there, and I thought, "I, I need to make some noise to drown out what she's doing." And, uh, so that started it. And she liked Cat Stevens. Uh, we had a music book of the Anthology for The Beatles, which is another huge band for me with my songwriting, because of the weird chord structures. They have moving bass note that, uh, you know, the chord will say- stay the same and the bass will move, or vice versa, the bass will stay the same and the chord will move. So not a lot of movement happens, but it seems like a lot's going on in the songs. And then besides, uh, Elton John, Bowie was, uh, Cat Stevens. I don't know if I said that or not, but he was a huge pop success back in the day, you know. Um-

Joe Rogan 24:35 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 24:36 ... part of that whole hippie movement, and, and, uh, he actually went back to Afghanistan and, and changed his name back to Yusef Islam, I think.

Joe Rogan 24:44 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 24:45 And, um, boy, he had a beautiful voice. That's one thing for sure.

Joe Rogan 24:49 I think he tours now, but I'm not sure if he tours as Cat Stevens-

Dave Mustaine 24:53 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 24:53 ... or Yusef Islam. I feel like he was not in America, though. Does he- does he tour in America? I think there was, like, an issue with the Salman Rushdie comments. I think there was something going on when... You remember, when Salman Rushdie, when they f-

Dave Mustaine 25:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:07 ... before he got attacked recently, like, when they first instituted a fatwa on him, I think, uh, he supported it or something. There was, like, some real issue.

Dave Mustaine 25:15 He supported the fatwa-

Joe Rogan 25:16 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 25:16 ... or the, uh, the Chronicles?

Joe Rogan 25:18 Yeah. Yeah, which was- I'm pretty sure. No. Google that. I don't wanna have to edit that out. No upcoming events. Uh- Oh, did he support the, the fatwa on Salman Rushdie? I'm not... I'm pretty sure I'm not making-

Dave Mustaine 25:33 What was that called, The Satanic Chronicles or something?

Joe Rogan 25:35 Yeah, The Satanic Verses.

Dave Mustaine 25:36 Verses, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:37 Yeah, and I g- I guess people interpreted it as, uh, being about Muhammad. Yeah. He did? Mm-hmm. What did he, what did he say? Uh, it just says he endorsed the- made statements endorsing it. Yeah. His statements generated cr- yeah. Which is crazy to say. If a guy's a hippie from cat in the cradle-

Dave Mustaine 25:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:57 ... in the silver spoon.

Dave Mustaine 25:57 Peace Train. No, that's from somebody else.

Joe Rogan 25:59 Oh, who is that?

Dave Mustaine 25:59 Yeah, uh, who knows? Who cares?

Joe Rogan 26:00 That's not him?

Dave Mustaine 26:01 Um, he's the Peace Train guy.

Joe Rogan 26:02 Yeah, that's right. Peace Train. What else has he got?

Dave Mustaine 26:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:05 He's got a-

Dave Mustaine 26:06 T for the Tillerman, Stake for the Sun. That's maybe what you're thinking of.

Joe Rogan 26:08 That's... So, he's got a great voice. It's like-

Dave Mustaine 26:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:10 ... very soothing and-

Dave Mustaine 26:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:12 ... loving. (laughs) Meanwhile, he supports killing-

Dave Mustaine 26:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:15 ... Salman Rushdie for writing a book.

Dave Mustaine 26:17 Die, die, die.

Joe Rogan 26:19 I think when people say they support killing, they d- I don't think they really understand what they're saying sometimes. I think they're, they're saying it, but if you were there while it was happening, while the guy was getting killed, you would be fucking horrified.

Dave Mustaine 26:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:30 Like, you, what you are saying is that horrific violence is justified for someone writing something down.

Dave Mustaine 26:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:38 That's crazy talk.

Dave Mustaine 26:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:40 That's crazy t- unless you don't know what horrific violence is. You're, you're talking about it like it's some ethereal, nonexisting, nonreal thing 'cause you haven't experienced it in real life.

Dave Mustaine 26:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:53 (sighs)

Dave Mustaine 26:53 Well, maybe he did experience a lot of it in the peace movement in the '60s and '70s because, you know-

Joe Rogan 26:57 Maybe.

Dave Mustaine 26:58 ... th- he, he probably got sick with America and, and, you know, going back to Afghanistan and changing your name-

Joe Rogan 27:04 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 27:04 ... that probably had something that spurred that on and probably wasn't just a, uh, knee-jerk reaction and, you know, I know that the music business was way, way different than it is now. It's so different.

Joe Rogan 27:14 I don't know if those two things are related but, yeah, I'm sure the peace movement, they probably s- saw a lot of wild shit.

Dave Mustaine 27:19 Well, he's a musician, right?

Joe Rogan 27:20 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 27:21 And, and the music business is what you survive in and, uh, for example, Elvis, you know, the way that he- his life ended and, and, uh, you know, the way that the music business was back then, uh, it was, you know, throw, throw drugs at the problem, throw sex and money at the problem. And, um, I don't know that, uh, had he had modern management or, uh, even if he was with, you know, somebody who, um, you know, like a handler, you know-

Joe Rogan 27:47 Mm-hmm.

Dave Mustaine 27:47 ... that would say, "Hey, it's probably not a good idea for you to, to say that." You know, nowadays, we have people who, um, are, are... Their s- their sole jobs are to help keep us from, you know, stepping on it, you know.

Joe Rogan 27:58 Right. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 27:59 So... And, uh, I've got people around me, they used to be real busy with me but, you know, fortunately, growing up I've, I've learned a lot of stuff that, you know, you can and can't say, so.

Joe Rogan 28:07 Well, specifically, I mean, in this day and age with social media, it's so easy for someone to just tweet something really ridiculous without someone (laughs) saying, "Hey, don't fucking say that. You're on Adderall."

Dave Mustaine 28:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:19 "Sit down. Don't write that down. Don't say that." You know, it just... Back then... Do you think that the, the drug and alcohol thing is the same today in music? Or do you think it's less? Do you think it's just not promoted by the... I mean, h- what do you think the difference is between the influence of drugs and alcohol in the early days versus now?

Dave Mustaine 28:43 Well, I think, I think in the early days of the music business, uh, first off, the drugs weren't as strong. And, um, you know, they didn't have, uh, like, for example, something as simple as, uh, you know, the, the marijuana that, that I used to smoke when I was a kid versus what's, uh, being manufactured and grown nowadays is quite different. And, uh, I think that the stigmatism for people about smoking is, uh, less. And I, I think that, um, there's a lot of, uh, n- other things that people use out on the road to, to cope with things that could be dealt with, with, you know, good management, good, good support system, um. And, and most importantly, you know, having somebody who's gonna tell you the truth. You know, I'm, I'm a grown-up, I'm a big boy, so when, when I, I have stuff happening in my career and, um, it could have been avoided or, or somebody didn't tell me and I find out later, that sucks.

Joe Rogan 29:37 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 29:37 You know? And, and for a lot of people when that stuff happens, they respond in a negative way with, um, you know, uh, either self-sabotage or, or, you know, they medicate themselves. And, and I remember back when I was drinking, um, you know, I, I... There was a thing someone said at one of those meetings and I thought it was kinda clever. The guy said, "You know, I drank when my team won and I drank when my team lost, and I drank when my team played, and I drank when my team was in the off season."

Joe Rogan 30:02 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 30:02 And I thought, "All right. Well, that's, that's about me. Uh, what team were we not rooting for anymore?" So...

Joe Rogan 30:07 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 30:07 But, you know, there's, there's so many reasons why people, um, make it or don't make it in the music business. And I think, much like yourself, uh, you know, and I... Getting to know each other earlier this afternoon, um, you know, you, you have to take care of yourself. You really, really do. And, and there's so many things in, in the music industry that, that, um, you know, the, the history, the, uh, the, the people that you're working with. You know, a lot of people don't wanna say anything bad about somebody but, I mean, imagine how much better things would be if somebody really said, "You know what? Th- uh, he's a nice guy, but he stole from us." Or, "You know, this guy is... He- he's good at this, but he's terrible at that." You know? Everybody's so afraid to offend anybody with, with, uh, stuff like that. But yet, you know, in other areas of life, offending people doesn't mean shit. You know? So we, we've had some times when we've had some people on our, on our, uh, crew and, um-... uh, tours that we've been on. The last tour we were on, not my band, but another band, their bus drove right up to the Canadian border and the driver got out and left them all sitting there.

Joe Rogan 31:11 (laughs) Why?

Dave Mustaine 31:13 So yeah, it's the music business.

Joe Rogan 31:14 Why did he do that?

Dave Mustaine 31:14 Because he had a DUI or something like that, and you can't get up into Canada, so...

Joe Rogan 31:17 Oh my God, that's hilarious. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 31:18 You know, it's so convoluted, all this stuff. But see, like, back in the day, you know, uh, back in the '60s or '70s when I was talking about, you know, different eras, different messes, different managers, you know, managers used to manage the mess. They don't manage the mess anymore. They don't wanna tolerate that shit, 'cause there's always somebody around the corner that's ready to work harder than you.

Joe Rogan 31:36 Mm-hmm.

Dave Mustaine 31:36 It's like that motivational thing that Arnold said, long time, "Somebody's out there getting stronger, running farther," you know, all that stuff. I love those motivational tapes.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, someone is out there doing it. And if you do fuck up and you wanna just take Xanax all day and, and, and do coke and you don't write new music, someone's gonna come along.

Dave Mustaine 31:56 They are.

Joe Rogan 31:56 And unfortunately, everybody... But that, but that's... Isn't that a part of, like, the whole rock and roll mystique? A part of the whole mystique was the guy who did crazy drugs and was kinda half out of it, but would go on stage and be brilliant.

Dave Mustaine 32:09 Sometimes. You know, that's-

Joe Rogan 32:10 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 32:10 And Keith Moon, you know, yeah, that's, that worked for Keith. But I think that's... You know, a player like Keith is so all over the place, you know, he doesn't have a song with a pattern.

Joe Rogan 32:19 Right.

Dave Mustaine 32:19 So it's just go out there and, and just hit everything. Um, there, I, I know of a lot of musicians that, that, um, will drink when they play. I, I know a lot that don't. Um, I don't know very many anymore that do drugs. Um, that's just something that's been kinda, kinda-

Joe Rogan 32:36 Phased out?

Dave Mustaine 32:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:38 Just because the impact it has on your body?

Dave Mustaine 32:40 Well, not only that, but the, the things that it makes the people do and, and the kinda people that are around that. I think that, you know-

Joe Rogan 32:47 Mm-hmm.

Dave Mustaine 32:48 ... like, again, like I was saying, herb is less of a stigmatism, so people are a little bit more open with that.

Joe Rogan 32:52 Mm-hmm.

Dave Mustaine 32:53 But, you know, as far as, uh, coming backstage and it smelling like, you know, somebody's back there burning chemicals or something like that, or, you know, people falling out in the hallway from heroin or, or, you know, tweaking around on meth or coke or something, you know, we, we try and, and, uh, associate with people that are like-minded with us, you know, the people that are, uh, about their careers and that really are, uh, into taking care of themselves. Um, two of the guys in Five Finger Death Punch do jujitsu. They have a, a sensei out with them. We all are doing jujitsu. Um, when we were out with Trivium, the singer for that band does jujitsu. So we try and hang out with bands that are really, uh, health-centric, you know-

Joe Rogan 33:31 Right.

Dave Mustaine 33:31 ... that are really, really looking into... And not just from here down, but here up too.

Joe Rogan 33:36 When you, when you were a kid and you first were hearing about bands and getting into bands, was that, was that always, uh, a narrative? Was that something that was discussed a lot, that, like, a lot of bands did drugs?

Dave Mustaine 33:50 I don't think it was, because, uh, uh, you know, it, it wasn't something we were preoccupied with. We were... At the time when I first started playing around by myself, um, with other little, you know, small-time, uh, outfits and stuff like that, it, it never was really drugs per se. It would be like maybe get a six-pack of beer and, you know, maybe smoke a joint or something. But it wasn't until Megadeth actually, um, got going and we met, uh, Gar and, uh, some of the people in that circle where we, you know, started to experiment with other stuff. And, and, uh, we had a manager at the time who, who, um, was very, very bad off. And, um, he would try to always keep us, um, loaded. And we ended up having to fire the guy because it was for our own health-

Joe Rogan 34:34 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 34:35 ... and our own safety. I mean, you know, if I was a cheap bastard and didn't have any money, I would say, "This is great. You get high for free." But, you know, it, it... The thing was, is, um, you know, the guy was keeping several members of the band sick.

Joe Rogan 34:47 Yeah, there's guys that do that. There are guys that do that. And there's guys that, that'll do that just to sort of corral you and keep control of you.

Dave Mustaine 34:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:55 I've seen managers do that, where they're-

Dave Mustaine 34:56 The, by Brian Wilson story was a great story too.

Joe Rogan 34:59 What, what happened with Brian Wilson?

Dave Mustaine 35:01 The, uh, the movie that he had about the doctor that he had, he had some psychiatrist that kept him all whacked out. I watched the movie, uh, that Paul, Paul Garganis, or whatever his name is, the one guy from, uh, Billions, was, uh, the doctor. And I can't remember who played Brian Wilson, but it was a great movie.

Joe Rogan 35:18 What is it called?

Dave Mustaine 35:19 Uh, it was The Brian Wilson Story, I guess.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Oh, okay.

Dave Mustaine 35:21 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 35:22 I, I haven't seen that one yet, but I'll check it out though.

Dave Mustaine 35:23 But John Cusack played in it, and I know John Cusack's a practitioner too. He'd, he'd, uh, trained over with Sensei Benny at the Jet Center too.

Joe Rogan 35:31 Yeah, I remember h- and he used him in one of his movies. There it is, Love and Mercy. That's it.

Dave Mustaine 35:39 Giamatti.

Joe Rogan 35:40 Paul Giamatti.

Dave Mustaine 35:41 That's who's in it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:41 Oh yeah, the guy from the Howard Stern movie too. Yeah, that guy's awesome. Yeah, that, um... That's, that whole thing with, uh, psychiatrists or doctors or, uh, you know, whether it's a manager or someone that you have that can get you drugs and that keeps you on them, that's a longstanding story. That's been going on a long time. Especially like with really talented people, a lot of times that, that person, they, they can benefit financially from controlling them.

Dave Mustaine 36:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:10 So they get ahold of... They, they go, "Look, I'm just gonna babysit you, keep you on drugs, and then suck money outta you."

Dave Mustaine 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:16 And, and then there's a lot of those guys that wind up keeping these incompetent managers for years longer than they should-

Dave Mustaine 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:21 ... because the guy gets them drugs too.

Dave Mustaine 36:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:23 Because the guy gets them girls, he gets them drugs, he sets up parties. He does all this stuff that doesn't help the band-

Dave Mustaine 36:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:30 ... and doesn't help their music-

Dave Mustaine 36:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:31 ... but it helps keep him around.

Dave Mustaine 36:33 In the picture.

Joe Rogan 36:34 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 36:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:34 There's, there's... Those guys are real. I've met those guys in comedy too. They exist. They exist. And it's, um, you know, it's always been a long- uh, longstanding story in comedy, you know, with, uh, Sam Kinison was into coke and Richard Pryor famously had a problem. But you don't, you only hear about those kind of people when they make the news, you know, when something happens. So I was always wondering, like, back in your day when you first started, like, was that a trope? Was that something that was discussed a lot with rock stars?

Dave Mustaine 37:02 Tends not to be in the news.

Joe Rogan 37:04 The drugs?

Dave Mustaine 37:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:05 No, the drugs, the drug thing. Because it seems like so many guys from, from your era-

Dave Mustaine 37:10 ... w- were doing drugs.

Joe Rogan 37:12 Yeah, they were. Uh, well, le- let's... I'll give you a scenario. When we got signed to Capitol, we went up into the tower. We went into one of the little rooms there, and the guy slid his desk open and there were lines everywhere.

Dave Mustaine 37:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:23 So, yeah, they gave us a box of Nike shoes and all the blow you could eat.

Dave Mustaine 37:28 Wow. That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 37:30 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 37:32 When I was a kid and when I worked at a comedy club, they offered me coke or money, or a combination of both.

Joe Rogan 37:37 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 37:37 You could get paid in cash or coke.

Joe Rogan 37:39 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 37:39 I was like, "This is crazy." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:41 I heard, I heard about a band, uh, with a front man that I really respected that wanted to be paid in crack. And, and-

Dave Mustaine 37:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:48 ... I just thought, "You know what? I've lost all respect for you now."

Dave Mustaine 37:51 Well, maybe he knew he could get it at a good price and sell it on the road.

Joe Rogan 37:54 Yeah, you never know.

Dave Mustaine 37:54 It's hard to get good crack.

Joe Rogan 37:55 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 37:57 Yeah, there's a lot of people that get, like, really lost on drugs. But that's why I'm always happy to speak with a, a s- person like yourself that's, you know, had your problems and put 'em aside-

Joe Rogan 38:08 Mm-hmm.

Dave Mustaine 38:08 ... and bounced back.

Joe Rogan 38:09 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 38:09 And, you know, got healthy and, and is open about it.

Joe Rogan 38:13 Mm-hmm.

Dave Mustaine 38:13 You know? I think that's... it's so important for guys to hear. And also, guy... y- he's... that it's a trap, too, that you can get... you get sucked up into that trap. You can be a good person, a solid person who could... who's, you know, got confidence, you can accomplish things, but you can get still sucked in that trap.

Joe Rogan 38:28 Yeah, you can. You can. 'Cause it's, it's like... people call it the big lie for a reason.

Dave Mustaine 38:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:34 You know?

Dave Mustaine 38:34 The big lie.

Joe Rogan 38:35 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 38:35 They call the tour books The Big Lie, too. So, speaking of touring... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:39 The tour books?

Dave Mustaine 38:40 Yeah, when you're out on tour, you know, you get these, these, uh, itineraries. And, and, um, I don't know when you travel if you, uh, go for long stints at a time or not, or if, if, uh, the UFC, when they travel, if they, uh, go for long stints at a time. But when we go, we usually have, uh, an itinerary, which is our, our little book, and we call it the Book of Lies because-

Joe Rogan 38:59 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 38:59 ... all the information when the tour starts (laughs) is all accurate, but by the time you get out in, uh, to that first date, stuff starts changing.

Joe Rogan 39:06 Oh, so you call that the big lie?

Dave Mustaine 39:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:07 H- what is the longest time you've ever been on tour for?

Dave Mustaine 39:10 72 weeks.

Joe Rogan 39:11 Oh, my God. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 39:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:16 That had to feel so bizarre when you came off the road after that much time.

Dave Mustaine 39:19 Yeah. It was back in the day when beds had quarter slots on 'em too, so we, we were, uh, sitting in these cheap hotels and watching WGN all day long. I, I sure learned a lot about the Atlanta Braves during (laughs) that period, but, uh, yeah, it was rough.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Quarter slots mean you put a quarter in to pay for the television?

Dave Mustaine 39:35 No, the bed would vibrate.

Joe Rogan 39:37 Oh. Okay.

Dave Mustaine 39:39 Remember those? That's like m- m- bygone past.

Joe Rogan 39:41 Boy, I do remember that, now that you bring it up. I don't think I ever experienced it personally, but I think I saw it in movies or something. Maybe one time when I was a kid they had that. I don't know when-

Dave Mustaine 39:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:52 ... they got rid of that, but that was the most bizarre thing.

Dave Mustaine 39:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:55 You probably s- (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 39:55 We stayed at all those nice, fine establishments.

Joe Rogan 39:58 (laughs) Is that supposed to enhance sex? You put a quarter in and your bed vibrates?

Dave Mustaine 40:01 Well, if you're having sex with a bed, I guess.

Joe Rogan 40:04 Yeah, I don't understand why that would be a b- a net benefit to have a vibrating bed, but people would pay for it. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 40:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:10 I think everybody forgot about vibrating beds. You might've just revived an industry. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 40:14 There you go. (laughs) 'Cause I completely forgot. There it is, Magic Fingers Relaxation com- Service. "For your comfort, this bed is equipped with..." The same.

Joe Rogan 40:27 What is it? "The same Magic Fingers?"

Narrator 40:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:31 Why does it say, "The same"?

Narrator 40:33 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 40:33 That doesn't make any sense.

Narrator 40:35 Maybe it was, uh... Well, it (clears throat) it was, uh... It looks like they copyright it, so it's like, uh, maybe people were just trying to steal their...

Joe Rogan 40:41 But why would it say... what, what did... who... (laughs) That's why it's out of business.

Dave Mustaine 40:45 Yeah.

Narrator 40:45 They did-

Joe Rogan 40:45 They're terrible at marketing. "For your comfort, this bed is equipped with the same."

Narrator 40:49 "The same Magic Fingers Relaxation Service." I think it's supposed to go all together.

Joe Rogan 40:53 Right, but what... That's terrible. Like, shitty font. Everything sucks.

Narrator 40:57 They're capable of-

Dave Mustaine 40:57 Yeah, but it's, it's-

Joe Rogan 40:58 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 40:58 ... it's formatted wrong.

Joe Rogan 40:59 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 41:00 It's, it's a whole sentence, but they put an image in the middle, stupid.

Narrator 41:03 Oh, it's seven grand a month off of a bed.

Joe Rogan 41:05 What?

Dave Mustaine 41:05 Yeah.

Narrator 41:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:05 They can make seven grand a month just off each bed?

Dave Mustaine 41:08 You just gotta put a vibrator in between the pillows.

Joe Rogan 41:11 That's incredible. Oh my God.

Narrator 41:13 Is it?

Joe Rogan 41:13 How ridiculous.

Dave Mustaine 41:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:14 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 41:15 Shitty hotels- It is.

Joe Rogan 41:16 ... all that jazz, and then coming back home after 72 weeks? Is that what you said?

Dave Mustaine 41:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:20 72 weeks on the road?

Dave Mustaine 41:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:22 How long were you home for?

Dave Mustaine 41:24 Eh, let's see. We went right in after that and did Peace Sells, But Who's Buying? And, um, I think that record took a couple of, uh, months to make. We weren't home for long. We weren't home for long.

Joe Rogan 41:36 (exhales) That's a hard life.

Dave Mustaine 41:39 Yeah. In the beginning, it was a lot of, uh, traveling. And since I was homeless, you know, and having a hotel to live in and, and, um, a venue basically to live in, um, that, that was good for us. You know, David Ellefson didn't have to, uh, go home, um, ever because he had, uh, his family to fall back on. Um, I, I had no home to go to, so I had to make it last. And, and, uh, so, so, uh, to a degree, being in, in... on tour in the venues, in the hotel rooms, it was, it was a step up for me from being in a band. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:13 Yeah, I guess. That's, uh... it still had to be kind of... I mean, for every musician, the dream is to record and to make a living touring and to have fans.

Dave Mustaine 42:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:25 So, when you started having that, I, I would imagine you would wanna ride that as quickly and as long as possible. Like, I... if I was in a band, I would imagine I would want to tour for 72 weeks in a row too.

Dave Mustaine 42:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:36 Like, it's, it's happening for you.

Dave Mustaine 42:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:39 What was that like when... I mean, you were successful pretty early on in your life.

Dave Mustaine 42:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:44 Like, h- how old were you when you were in your first band?

Dave Mustaine 42:48 Uh, Panic, uh, was the band before Metallica, and, and that was only for a short period of time. And I was 20 when I was in Metallica, so I probably started when I was around maybe, mmh, 17, 18.

Joe Rogan 43:03 But just think of that, just that statement. "I was 20 when I was in Metallica." (laughs) I mean, that... (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 43:10 Yeah, fuck you all.

Joe Rogan 43:12 (laughs) That is crazy. "I was 20 when I was in Metallica." That is a crazy statement. Because if you just think about the average 20-year-old's life, and that, and the, this is... Look at, look at you guys, little babies.

Dave Mustaine 43:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:29 So cute. That's amazing. Does that freak you out when you look at that?

Dave Mustaine 43:33 No, it doesn't. Um, it kinda brings me a little bit of some sadness.

Joe Rogan 43:39 Because of the way it went down with you guys?

Dave Mustaine 43:41 Oh, I don't care about that. Um, because Cliff.

Joe Rogan 43:44 Oh.

Dave Mustaine 43:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:45 Yeah. When you, um, left Metallica, and then when, did you go right into Megadeth? Or did you other... What'd you do right after Metallica?

Dave Mustaine 43:57 I, I think in my mind I went right into Megadeth, but, um, a- at the time, I, I was still kinda trying to, you know, um, digest everything that took place. Uh-

Joe Rogan 44:09 Well, you were still only 20.

Dave Mustaine 44:11 Yeah, yeah. The thing that bothered me the most was I had all my music and I left it behind, and I said, "Don't use my music," and of course they did.

Joe Rogan 44:19 Oh, really?

Dave Mustaine 44:19 Yeah, they used it on the first record, on the second record. There's parts of my music on a song on the third record. All the solos on the first record are mine, except that they're just performed by Kirk. And close, but not the same. You know, he's not a bad guitar player. He, he-

Joe Rogan 44:33 Did you get royalties for that?

Dave Mustaine 44:35 Uh, well, uh, most of them, yeah. But Kirk got my royalties for Metal Militia for many, many years. And, you know, he has to see the check, so I know somebody saw that I wasn't getting paid.

Joe Rogan 44:46 So, there's a sadness and bitterness.

Dave Mustaine 44:48 Not bitterness, I'm-

Joe Rogan 44:49 No bitterness?

Dave Mustaine 44:50 I'm over it.

Joe Rogan 44:50 A little upset?

Dave Mustaine 44:51 You know, my, it's just money, you know? Like you said-

Joe Rogan 44:53 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 44:53 ... you know, at the end of the day, y- you know, um, my happiness and my family, my wife and my children are more important to me than, than anything in this world. And, and, um, you know, I, I, I love our fans. I, I have so many things in this life that I'm happy about. But man, it's, it's, it's my family, and, and-

Joe Rogan 45:12 (sniffs)

Dave Mustaine 45:13 ... obviously my relationship with God. I, I, I take that very, very personal. And, you know, I don't talk to people about it. I, I don't, I don't push it on them at all. It's my thing. And, and, uh, I just look at it like, where I'm at right now, um, yeah, 20 in Metallica, and now look at me, I'm 60 in Megadeth. And, and-

Joe Rogan 45:32 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 45:32 ... and I'm a Grammy winner and I'm a New York Times bestselling author. All these things that if, if... You know, I was signing autographs the other day, Joe, and, and I, I, I had these boxes. There was 3,000 jackets I had to sign. And for a moment, I flashed back to elementary school when I was in front of the chalkboard, I swore to God, and I had to write. Did you ever have to do that?

Joe Rogan 45:52 Yeah, sure.

Dave Mustaine 45:53 God. And I don't know what brought that up, but I thought, "Oh my God, I can't even believe that." And, and thinking about, you know, where I'm at now today, and, and, and you know, just how the slightest deviation from where I was going could have ended me up anywhere else in the world. 'Cause I wanted to do so many things. I wanted to be a, uh, professional athlete. I wanted to play baseball. You know, I, I, I thought about... I had a, uh, cousin who was a fighter pilot, and I thought that would be really great too. But, you know...

Joe Rogan 46:21 You know, Dave, I think that's the case with a lot of people that wind up becoming successful at things. They could have gone in a bunch of different directions. They just chose to go in this one, but they still have other interests in things. Because I think the type of people that become really successful, like with you playing guitar, is, they are the type of people that can kinda be good at anything. They just have to love that thing.

Dave Mustaine 46:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:42 Like, I'm sure you love playing guitar, which is why you're so good at playing guitar.

Dave Mustaine 46:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:46 If you loved something else as much as you love that, you'd be just as good at that. I think it's an expression of who you are as a person.

Dave Mustaine 46:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:53 And I think that's one of the more unique things about guitar playing to me.

Dave Mustaine 46:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:57 It's like, we were talking, uh, outside earlier about Gary Clark Jr., about like, if I listen to Gary Clark Jr.'s riffs, I can tell it's him. Like, his sound is so distinctive. He's playing with the same instrument that other people play with, but his sound is so uniquely distinctive that I could pick it out.

Dave Mustaine 47:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:14 And that that was the case with Hendrix, and that's the case with you.

Dave Mustaine 47:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:17 It's, uh, the case with a lot of great guitarists. Like, you hear the sound, and you know who's playing it, which is really crazy.

Dave Mustaine 47:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:25 If you think about this instrument that basically anybody can buy-

Dave Mustaine 47:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:29 ... you can get them in so many different places, and so many people know how to play them.

Dave Mustaine 47:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:32 But some people specifically, who they are comes out in their music.

Dave Mustaine 47:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:36 And as a fan of music, that's one of the cooler things about guitar playing to me, or any kind of music playing, is that like, it, th- there's like an expression of who the person is who creates it that comes out when you listen to it.

Dave Mustaine 47:48 Mm-hmm. You're a big Hendrix fan.

Joe Rogan 47:50 I love Hendrix.

Dave Mustaine 47:51 I did, uh... I don't know if you knew this, but, uh, a couple years ago, before I got diagnosed, I had the, uh, privilege to do the Jimi Hendrix Experience. And, uh, the family did this thing where they go out and they have all these marquee players and they do Hendrix songs.

Joe Rogan 48:05 Oh, wow.

Dave Mustaine 48:06 They asked me to go do that. I thought, you know, I, I mean, I was n- not in- influenced by Hendrix at all, but, uh, I loved him as a musician and I respect his work. So, "Yeah, I'll do it." And, uh, of course, I'm playing a Flying V, and he had a Flying V, so I had the Flying Vs, uh, painted like his, which was really cool. I have two of them still. I have one with a wang bar and one without. I'm probably gonna get rid of them some di- point, but just haven't gotten around to it yet. But we did, we did, uh, three songs, I think. I think it was three songs we did. And he uses a strat, so the sound difference between a Flying V and a strat is, uh, very significant. And for me to try and work that out, I was having a hard time, and, and I wanna just say this to share how cool these guys were. Dweezil Zappa, I don't know if you know him, I didn't know him very well. E- Eric Johnson is another guy I don't know very well. But I came out one day and the two of those guys were sitting there working on my amps. And I thought, "Wow, this is so rad," 'cause Eric is an amazing guitar player and Dweezil's no slouch on his own. And his, his dad, Frank Zappa, was an amazing guitar player, too. And they were sitting there working on my guitar sounds because they've been doing this Hendrix thing for so long, they know how to make the instrument sound right. And, and...... they did it. I played it. It felt awful because it wasn't what I was used to, but it sounded great, and I was so, uh, grateful to those guys for doing that. It was really neat, you know? Uh, being around the whole Hendrix family, listening to those songs too, it's mind-blowing how much he influenced musicians.

Joe Rogan 49:40 Today.

Dave Mustaine 49:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:40 I mean, if he was alive today, he'd be one of the greatest guitarists alive, not just one of the greatest ever. Like, even though things ... Look at this right here.

Dave Mustaine 49:50 That's his Psychedelic V.

Joe Rogan 49:52 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 49:52 Excuse me while I kiss the sky.

Joe Rogan 49:56 Wow. There was a photo of- a bunch of photos that were released that, that someone sent me, uh, today. I don't know when they came out, but they- it's, uh, Jimi Hendrix in Ringo Starr's apartment. See if you can find those, 'cause someone sent me li- there was like 10 of them that I had never seen before, of Jimi wearing this like cool blue suit, hanging out in Ringo Starr's London apartment, smoking cigarettes.

Dave Mustaine 50:19 Hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:19 It's like he's cooking. Look, he's on the- on the kitchen stove. Very interesting.

Dave Mustaine 50:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:24 Wild pictures. And you think, that guy was only 27 when he died, which is amazing, if you go back and listen to some of his stuff. Listen to Machine Gun, you know, listen to Voodoo Child, listen to All Along the Watchtower.

Dave Mustaine 50:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:37 Yeah, there are- there's the photos. That's it. (laughs) Look at that.

Dave Mustaine 50:39 See, that was different, man. You know-

Joe Rogan 50:41 Look at that cool suit, man.

Dave Mustaine 50:42 ... people would go and hang out-

Joe Rogan 50:43 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 50:43 ... and there was no, uh, there was no posses and there was no-

Joe Rogan 50:47 Right.

Dave Mustaine 50:47 ... like, you know, shootings and stuff like that. And, and everybody just ha- they loved to be around each other.

Joe Rogan 50:53 That says, "The time Ringo Starr evicted Jimi Hendrix for being a shitty tenant." (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 50:58 Oh, boy.

Joe Rogan 50:58 1967. Look it, that's wild. That might be clickbait, whether he evicted him-

Dave Mustaine 51:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:06 ... for being a shitty tenant. Who knows?

Dave Mustaine 51:08 That doesn't look bad.

Joe Rogan 51:09 That's so cool, though. Look at his fucking suit.

Dave Mustaine 51:11 That- that's clean compared to my apartment growing up.

Joe Rogan 51:13 Well, his suit is amazing.

Dave Mustaine 51:15 Yeah, he's pretty- he's pretty dapper.

Joe Rogan 51:15 Did you ever have a blue velvet suit? I mean-

Dave Mustaine 51:17 No.

Joe Rogan 51:18 ... come the fuck on. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 51:20 No.

Joe Rogan 51:20 It takes a lot of balls to wear a suit like that.

Dave Mustaine 51:22 I may have when my mom was forcing me to be a Jehovah's Witness, though.

Joe Rogan 51:25 Oh.

Dave Mustaine 51:25 Who knows? I could've put- had velvet everything.

Joe Rogan 51:28 What year did that happen?

Dave Mustaine 51:30 Oh, God, I, uh, I, um ... When I was seven.

Joe Rogan 51:34 Seven?

Dave Mustaine 51:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:35 So, do you remember a time before the Jehovah's Witness? Do you remember having to join?

Dave Mustaine 51:39 Barely.

Joe Rogan 51:40 Barely?

Dave Mustaine 51:40 Barely. Um, my mom and dad got divorced when I was four, like I said, so there was a lot of, uh, uh, disruption in our-

Joe Rogan 51:47 My friend Kirk Metsger, who's a, uh, fantastic comedian, he, uh, was raised Jehovah's Witness.

Dave Mustaine 51:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:53 He has some crazy fucking stories about him.

Dave Mustaine 51:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:56 And he managed to escape, and one of the things he said that it's helped him with is like he sees cult-like thinking in like political ideologies. He see- he sees it in like social movements. He's like, "Oh, you're not allowed to question this. No, no, I grew up with this. I know what the fuck this is."

Dave Mustaine 52:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:12 "This is- this is a cult. You just don't think it's a cult because you think you're- you're out to do good."

Dave Mustaine 52:17 Mm.

Joe Rogan 52:17 "And so, you're not allowing any discourse or any discussion. You're in a fucking cult."

Dave Mustaine 52:20 Mm.

Joe Rogan 52:21 "You don't know when you're in a cult, but you're in a cult."

Dave Mustaine 52:22 Mm.

Joe Rogan 52:23 It's interesting to hear it from guys like that- it's like people who come from communist countries-

Dave Mustaine 52:26 Mm.

Joe Rogan 52:27 ... that get- become very conservative when they come to America.

Dave Mustaine 52:29 Mm.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Like, they- they don't wanna hear any Marxism talk. "Shut the fuck up."

Dave Mustaine 52:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:33 Like, "We grew up in a communist country. Get the fuck outta here with that."

Dave Mustaine 52:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:36 It's like, that's how he is with- with, you know, what happened to him growing up as a Jehovah's Witness.

Dave Mustaine 52:42 It's a weir- it's a weird religion.

Joe Rogan 52:44 What, like- what would they m- what was weird about it? Like, when did you realize that things were weird? I mean, you're seven years old-

Dave Mustaine 52:51 Well, it-

Joe Rogan 52:51 ... it's- it's probably the only life you know.

Dave Mustaine 52:54 It wasn't- it wasn't that it was very far away from any other kind of religion, you know? They believed in God and Jesus, and- and, uh, it was just the order of things, right? And, uh, the thing that I didn't like was, you know, I'm a kid, I wanna watch fucking cartoons on the weekend. I don't wanna go out and sell these magazines. You know, and you go and knock on the door Saturday or Sunday morning. "Hi, I've got this magazine." "Fuck you!" The kid's- guy's hungover, slams the door in your face, you know?

Joe Rogan 53:22 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 53:22 And, uh, that just was, I don't think, a cool way to have my childhood. I wanted to watch Wonderama.

Joe Rogan 53:28 It definitely sucks, but do you think that any part of having a sucky childhood is responsible for like the amount of energy that you had to put into music? That like-

Dave Mustaine 53:38 Sure.

Joe Rogan 53:38 I think sometimes, when kids grow up in a sucky way, those are the kids, like with athletics, that's often the case, it's often the case with comedy.

Dave Mustaine 53:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:46 That when kids grow up in a sucky way, with a lot of bad experiences, those are the ones who wind up like pushing harder to do-

Dave Mustaine 53:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:53 ... great things and other stuff.

Dave Mustaine 53:54 Mm. I think it's the wolf nipping at your heels.

Joe Rogan 53:57 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 53:57 And- and it just- there's something there that, uh, just wants to keep you not looking back.

Joe Rogan 54:02 Right, like you don't feel stable ever. You're- you're stuck in this shitty place that you wanna get out of as a young kid.

Dave Mustaine 54:10 Mm.

Joe Rogan 54:10 There's so many great artists, they- that's how they grew up. They grew up in like this place where childhood sucked, like, assholes around you, and you wanted to get the fuck outta there. Like, that's-

Dave Mustaine 54:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:21 ... that's such a reoccurring theme in people who become great artists.

Dave Mustaine 54:27 Yeah, there's a lot of that.

Joe Rogan 54:28 Yeah. It's, um, it's always interesting when you look back though, right? Like, being a person now who's gone through all that, and you went from that and all the drugs and then into ... Was it Alcoholics Anonymous that- where you became a Christian? Did you do it from getting sober or were you a Christian before that?

Dave Mustaine 54:48 N- no. Well, I- well, you- uh, again, Jehovah's Witnesses are a form of, uh, Christianity.

Joe Rogan 54:54 Right.

Dave Mustaine 54:54 So-

Joe Rogan 54:54 But not-

Dave Mustaine 54:55 Um ...

Joe Rogan 54:56 It's kinda recognized as sort of a cultish- well, they're all kinda-

Dave Mustaine 55:00 Well, well here- here's the thing, uh, real simple. Um, I believe in Jesus. I believe that- that God's God and Jesus is Jesus and- and the Holy Spirit's the Holy Spirit, and- and that's it. And if you wanna go to church, go to church. And if you wanna read the Bible, read the Bible. And if you don't wanna hear about it, don't listen. And- and if you don't want people to tell you about it, then tell them to shut up. Um, for me, I try and, uh, set a good example with my behavior. I don't ever try and, uh, um ...... proselyze or whatever they call it, uh-

Joe Rogan 55:29 Proselytize.

Dave Mustaine 55:29 Proselytize, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:30 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 55:31 Or, or, uh, even same thing with, you know, drinking or anything like that, you know? There's a saying there's nothing worse than a newly sober drunk. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:38 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 55:38 You know, so I try not to tell people how to, how to, uh, live their life. But one of the things I didn't like about that was, um, they had this thing when they didn't agree with something, the elders of the church would gather together and they would talk about the person in question and they would disfellowship them, or a lesser degree would be disassociate. And, um, it w-

Joe Rogan 56:05 And what is disfellowship? What does that mean?

Dave Mustaine 56:07 You are ostracized.

Joe Rogan 56:09 Ostracized, so you're not-

Dave Mustaine 56:11 You c- you still have to go to church, you still have to show up, you still have to do all of the rig-

Joe Rogan 56:14 But no one talks to you?

Dave Mustaine 56:15 ... rigamarole, they cannot, yeah. They're not supposed to.

Joe Rogan 56:19 Huh.

Dave Mustaine 56:19 They're not supposed to. My sister-

Joe Rogan 56:20 Let m-

Dave Mustaine 56:20 ... got disfellowshipped and the girl that, uh, brought the accusations against my sister had lied. Uh, she had said something about my sister and this other dude being together, and I knew that th- it wasn't true, because it, sh- my sister liked the other brother. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:37 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 56:37 So, (coughs) um, she got disfellowshipped and I, and that was pretty much when I started to wanna get away from it all. 'Cause, you know, I wasn't really old enough to see any of their inner workings of, of organized religion or stuff like that, but there's a lot of exposés out on that.

Joe Rogan 56:50 How long does a disfellowship last?

Dave Mustaine 56:52 Who knows?

Joe Rogan 56:53 They could just decide?

Dave Mustaine 56:54 I guess.

Joe Rogan 56:55 And so was, uh, f- sins, you'd have to do a sin? Is that what it is to get a transgression?

Dave Mustaine 57:01 Something that was, uh, unacceptable in their eyes.

Joe Rogan 57:04 And then you got defellowshipped?

Dave Mustaine 57:05 She did.

Joe Rogan 57:06 (laughs) Or, or that's, I mean, a person would-

Dave Mustaine 57:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:08 ... get defellowshipped?

Dave Mustaine 57:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:09 And so what are the, what was wacky about it in relationship to, like, s- just standard Christianity? Like, what are the-

Dave Mustaine 57:16 Okay. Well, I couldn't have any friends, uh, that were normal guys. Like you and me, we couldn't be friends, because I would have been a, a Witness and you would've been of the world.

Joe Rogan 57:24 Hmm. Of the world?

Dave Mustaine 57:24 Um, I think, I think they changed that now to, like, non-believers or something. They used to call them worldly people, right?

Joe Rogan 57:30 Mm-hmm.

Dave Mustaine 57:31 And, um, uh, the other-

Joe Rogan 57:33 So you have to hang out with only Jehovah's Witnesses?

Dave Mustaine 57:36 Yes. And when you stood up at school, which back when I went to school, you know, we were a very, uh, patriotic country and, and kids would stand up and they'd say the Pledge of Allegiance and, you know, do whatever. Um, uh, but we could not. We were supposed to stand with our hands at our sides. And, um, you did not get to celebrate Christmas, you did not get to celebrate birthdays. And, and that's enough right there to get just about any kid in their right mind to say, "Screw this. You take away my birthday, you take away Christmas, you take away all celebrations, and, and if, if I do something wrong in your eyes, I'm set outside of the, the fence? Uh-uh, I don't wanna be part of this."

Joe Rogan 58:17 So those are control issues, but there was, was there anything wacky in their belief system that separated them from Christianity? Like, I'm not really-

Dave Mustaine 58:24 I-

Joe Rogan 58:24 ... totally aware of what Jehovah's Witnesses are into.

Dave Mustaine 58:27 Right. Well, it, again, they believe similar to what most Christians do. I never really got into wanting to be part of that religion, so, uh-

Joe Rogan 58:35 When did you bail?

Dave Mustaine 58:37 I was 13.

Joe Rogan 58:38 13? So right-

Dave Mustaine 58:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:38 ... when you started playing music, perfect timing.

Dave Mustaine 58:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:41 What a quick life right into some wild ass music, though. To just have a life like that and then, bam, at 20, you're one of the founding members of Metallica. That's crazy.

Dave Mustaine 58:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:52 So it's a, and then 40 years later, still banging. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 58:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 58:55 It's pretty amazing. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 58:57 Yeah, thanks.

Joe Rogan 58:57 It's amazing.

Dave Mustaine 58:58 Thanks.

Joe Rogan 58:59 So when, but when did you get out of the Jehovah's Witness and into, uh, what we would call, what denomination are you-

Dave Mustaine 59:05 Okay, so-

Joe Rogan 59:06 ... involved in now?

Dave Mustaine 59:07 ... so I had to do like any, uh, normal guy would do. Um, (clears throat) when you get out of one thing that sucks, you do something else to extremes. So, um, w- when, uh, I bailed on the JW thing with my mom, I ran away from home up to Idaho where my sister lived and, and, uh, she was practicing black magic. So, like, I-

Joe Rogan 59:26 Whoa.

Dave Mustaine 59:26 ... I got into black magic. And, uh, I li- she, she, uh, did not practice black, she was doing white, uh, white magic. Uh, but I, I had practiced some black magic, uh, on two people. And, um, it was-

Joe Rogan 59:37 What does that mean?

Dave Mustaine 59:39 Oh, I don't wanna get into it, but, what the, the whole thing is, but, um, you, you, uh, as, as simply said, you know, you have somebody that you don't like and, and, uh, the power of suggestion in your mind, you could, um, say or do something and then, you know, uh, hope and pray that something will take place, uh, that that will even the score, so to speak, you know? Uh, do I believe that if I prayed for your shirt to be white right now that it would happen? Well, if, if, if, you know, the powers that be, you know, uh, the spirits of the universe want things to change, I could be struck blind right now by a white light and-

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 But if he turned my shirt white, I think that'd be a waste of a curse.

Dave Mustaine 1:00:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:18 It's really not a bad curse.

Dave Mustaine 1:00:19 Well, so the curses I did-

Joe Rogan 1:00:20 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 1:00:20 ... I did one on one guy that I was at school, and my nephew had told him that I was, uh, practicing Kung Fu Sun Tzu at the time. And, and, um, so he was like the t- uh, the school tough guy. And I, I, it was my first day at school, so he walked past me and sucker punched me in the stomach and I buckled over and I thought, "Oh, all right, here we go. This is gonna suck, this school." So we're going home and the buses are two-bus ride, big bus to a small drop-off, a little bus out to where we lived out in, in the, the rural, uh, area. And, uh, we get off the first bus and everybody circles around, and he's gonna beat me up, and nothing happens. And so I get on the bus and he gets in the bus and he walks out and elbows me in the back of the head when he's getting out, and I had some chewing tobacco in my mouth, so I swallowed it. And I got so sick and I knew I had to do something or it was gonna keep happening. So I put a hex on him that he would get physically injured, and he did. And, and the other hex that I did was a girl in night school we went to in Marina.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 How did he get physically injured?

Dave Mustaine 1:01:22 I, I, it, it was just something that had to do with...

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 But do you think, but he sounds like an asshole. Is, guys like that get hurt all the time.

Dave Mustaine 1:01:29 He did get hurt.

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 Yeah, but did, do you think that it, he got hurt because you put a hex on him, or do you think he got hurt because he's an asshole and he's probably doing stupid shit every day? Guys like that always get hurt.

Dave Mustaine 1:01:40 I think he got hurt because he's an asshole and I put a hex on him.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 Both?... both those things.

Dave Mustaine 1:01:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 What's that? Like, how do you do a hex?

Dave Mustaine 1:01:48 The whole reason I wouldn't play conjuring anymore was because-

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 Right.

Dave Mustaine 1:01:51 ... it has the instructions on how to do it. So, uh, I don't want anybody to learn how to do this. But I will tell you this much, the, uh, it involved, uh, um, using some food sources and, and making an effigy of sorts-

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 Jesus.

Dave Mustaine 1:02:05 ... and then, and then, um, you have to, um, you do certain things to identify the doll, you know? And then, um, you, uh, break off a leg or an arm of the doll and, uh, it's basically what he did. I broke the leg off and the guy got in a car crash and his leg got mauled and, and, um-

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 Wow.

Dave Mustaine 1:02:28 ... you know, this was 45 years ago, so the statute of limitations have expired. But even still-

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 I don't think you can get in trouble for hexes.

Dave Mustaine 1:02:35 Maybe. In the spiritual world, you do. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:02:37 Yeah, but I don't think there's a statute of limitations in the spiritual world.

Dave Mustaine 1:02:40 No, there's not. I think eternity means eternity. But, um, the other one was much more fun. I think you probably would've liked that more. It was a sex hex I did on this girl named-

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 You did a sex hex?

Dave Mustaine 1:02:48 ... on this girl named Susanna. And, uh, I went to night school-

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 That's got to be a good band too.

Dave Mustaine 1:02:51 ... and, um, we were... I mean, I was like a skinny redheaded kid going to night school after surfing and, and, uh, she would be there and everyone loved her. And I was just some sweaty kid, you know? And, and, uh, she came to my house one night to go buy some hash 'cause I, I had a roommate that was selling pot and hash and stuff. And, um, so, uh, I had already done this, this incantation on, on this girl, you know, I, I-

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Can I ask before you go any further what you use for a good incantation versus a bad one? Like, if you're doing, gonna do a sex hex, do you make a doll?

Dave Mustaine 1:03:30 No.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 You don't have to make a doll?

Dave Mustaine 1:03:32 No.

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 What do you have to do?

Dave Mustaine 1:03:34 Paper.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 Paper?

Dave Mustaine 1:03:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Just got to conjure something down on paper?

Dave Mustaine 1:03:39 No. Conjuring is in the air. Uh, paper, you would write.

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 You... Okay. So you write something down on paper and that conjures the sex hex?

Dave Mustaine 1:03:47 No. You have to do a prayer to invoke a spirit to be conjured. So anyway, so, so the girl, she was... Everyone loved her and they thought she was just so great and, and, you know, I liked her too and I, and I just-

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Wow.

Dave Mustaine 1:04:00 ... "Let's see if this works."

Joe Rogan 1:04:01 So you wrote some stuff down.

Dave Mustaine 1:04:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Do you have to write it in a specific language?

Dave Mustaine 1:04:06 English.

Joe Rogan 1:04:07 It's English?

Dave Mustaine 1:04:07 So I wrote her name, my name and I drew, I drew some little pictures on there and then, um, I, I burnt it and then-

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 Whoa.

Dave Mustaine 1:04:14 ... said a prayer. And, and the next night she came over to my apartment to buy this hash, right? And, and, you know, I don't know anything about anything. So she comes in and she goes, "Hey, what's your sign?" And I said, "I'm a Virgo." She goes, "Oh, my horoscope says I'm supposed to make love to a Virgo in a tropical surrounding," and I went and screwed a black light bulb in my bathroom and plugged the tub and said, "Here's a waterfall. Let's go." And, and I completely forgot about it until the next morning when I woke up. She had, she had these geraniums in her hair, those red little flowers, and they were all over my bedroom, all over my bed and that's the only way I even remembered.

Joe Rogan 1:04:48 Are you sure that wasn't just because you were a cute guy and you were good at guitar and she liked you?

Dave Mustaine 1:04:54 No.

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 No?

Dave Mustaine 1:04:55 No, because she was, she was-

Joe Rogan 1:04:55 You look cute to me-

Dave Mustaine 1:04:57 Yeah. Well, thank you.

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 ... when you were 20.

Dave Mustaine 1:04:58 But, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 1:04:58 ... she was, she was like the most prettiest girl in school, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:05:01 Maybe she liked musicians.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:03 I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 Do you really think it was the sex hex?

Dave Mustaine 1:05:05 Uh, no, I think it's all make believe, actually.

Joe Rogan 1:05:08 Oh, you're, you're being sarcastic.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:10 No.

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 See how he's doing?

Dave Mustaine 1:05:11 No, no. I, I think, I think a lot of it is power of suggestion, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 Hmm. I wonder. That'd be pretty crazy if you could actually do that, though. That sounds like a Stephen King movie.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:19 Well, you've seen people that, like the great whatever his name is, the guy that can bend the, uh, spoons and shit with his mind and stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Right. Right. There's a lot of people, but you know how they do that? They have a very specific spoon and it reacts to the heat of you rubbing your fingers on it.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:32 Oh, now you've ruined it.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 Sorry. Sorry. It's not magic.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:37 Yeah. Well, it's okay.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 I'm not opposed to believing in magic.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:39 What's his name? Krasinski. The great Krasinski. No, that's not his name.

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 Oh.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:41 It's something, something-

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 I don't know. I mean, James Randi did it and he's a nonbeliever. But I mean, Penn & Teller can do it. All those music, magicians can do it. I saw Banachek do it per- in person. I saw him do it. In front of my face, he did it.

Dave Mustaine 1:05:52 Yeah. I love Penn & Teller. Those guys are the best.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 And he didn't... Yeah, they're amazing. They're amazing. And they're so good for, for magic too, because you... they'll tell you that it's bullshit.

Dave Mustaine 1:06:01 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 And, you know, they're-

Dave Mustaine 1:06:02 Oh, I've seen that show.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 Yeah.

Dave Mustaine 1:06:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 Well that... The show Bullshit was about all kinds of things. Some things that aren't even bullshit, like yoga. But one of the things that they were doing was, like, doing magic and letting you in on the joke. Like, letting you know that it's bullshit-

Dave Mustaine 1:06:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:14 ... but still doing it in such an amazing way that you were blown away by it. Genius show. But anyway, I, I'm not... I don't not believe in magic. Uh, it's... I'm not... It could be real. I just haven't seen it.

Dave Mustaine 1:06:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 But it doesn't mean that... Weird things can happen with people's minds, especially when people believe things.

Dave Mustaine 1:06:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:34 And I don't... And I'm not exactly sure if I understand the interface between people's minds. I think there's, there's a lot more going on with people and their minds, like the way we interact with each other than I think we would like to believe.

Dave Mustaine 1:06:46 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 We like to believe that we're independent thinkers and that we're, we're not that influenced by other people's thoughts, but I think we are in a big way.

Dave Mustaine 1:06:53 Oh, you certainly are. Imagine the propaganda that they could say, like if this whole thing... Uh, here's an example about what we're talking about magic. I had heard that David Copperfield had marched an elephant out into the middle of the Lakers, uh, court. This is what I heard. It was a magic trick and he made it disappear or something like that during halftime. Now, I don't have any proof to that. I don't know if it was ever a real story or if it was just some idiot talking.

Joe Rogan 1:07:14 Let's find out. Let's Google it.

Dave Mustaine 1:07:16 I've never heard. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:07:17 We need to Google that one because if he did, we need to have a talk with Mr. Copperfield. He might know some things. I mean, if you had real magic and that's what you did, you just decided to do a Las Vegas show.

Dave Mustaine 1:07:27 There it is, the vanishing elephant.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 So this was on television? Is that what this was?

Dave Mustaine 1:07:31 He supposedly did it at the Lakers, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 So he closes the gate. Um.

Narrator 1:07:41 Now here's how the trick is done.

Joe Rogan 1:07:42 Then a puff of smoke. Oh, they're gonna show you how the trick is done.

Dave Mustaine 1:07:44 And then two hours go by.... probably the, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:07:50 Yeah, they're showing how they do it.

Narrator 1:07:51 ... the unmasked magician guy-

Joe Rogan 1:07:53 Yeah.

Narrator 1:07:53 ... when he went and ruined everyone's fun.

1:07:55 ... you can clearly see the elephant as well as the netting behind him.

Dave Mustaine 1:07:58 Okay, in case anybody needs to get rid of an elephant. (laughs)

Narrator 1:08:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:00 Right.

Narrator 1:08:00 Here's what you don't see. There are mirrors hidden inside each of the bars of the cage.

Dave Mustaine 1:08:05 Ah, you bastards.

Narrator 1:08:07 When the magician triggers the explosives, the mirrors slide into place, blocking your view into the cage.

Dave Mustaine 1:08:13 Oh.

Narrator 1:08:13 Sneaky, sneaky.

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 That's genius.

Narrator 1:08:15 You are no longer seeing the elephant and netting inside the cage. Instead, you're seeing a reflection of the netting outside the cage.

Dave Mustaine 1:08:23 (laughs)

Narrator 1:08:23 But inside the cage-

1:08:24 The cage is still there.

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 Genius.

Narrator 1:08:27 This makes it appear as if the elephant has vanished.

1:08:31 All right. Well, (overlapping)

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 Fucking genius.

Narrator 1:08:32 ... Joe still did it.

Joe Rogan 1:08:33 There you go.

Narrator 1:08:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 It's a trick. It's a trick, just like the sex acts. (laughs)

Dave Mustaine 1:08:38 You ruined it. (laughs)

Narrator 1:08:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:40 Jamie's got some paper right now. He's writing some sex acts because I saw him.

Dave Mustaine 1:08:44 All right. I'll do a sex act between you and Jamie, and we'll see if it works.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 No.

Narrator 1:08:47 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:08:47 Don't do that. It'll ruin our relationship.

Narrator 1:08:49 Okay, sorry. All right. I'm sorry, Joe. There's no need for this, Dave. I was just playing.

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 Um, so but when, when did you become a born again Christian? Like, what year did that take place?

Dave Mustaine 1:09:00 Um, God, you know, it just was such a natural thing, I can't even remember when it was. I was in Texas, in Hunt, Texas, and there was-

Joe Rogan 1:09:09 Remember how old you were?

Dave Mustaine 1:09:10 Eh, it was not, not too long ago. Maybe 15, 20 years ago, maybe. Maybe.

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 Okay,