Joe Rogan Experience #1877 - Jann Wenner

1. 0:00 – 2:31

   From Eisenhower’s 1950s to the 1960s crucible: disillusionment, civil rights, and Vietnam

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Thanks for being here, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate everything you've done.

   3. JWJann Wenner0:16

      Thank you.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      You have been a part of some wild changes in this country, my friend.

   5. JWJann Wenner0:21

      Well, I think... I start my life, my book out at a time in the '50s in the Eisenhower era where none of all of this, what we see today was conceivable. I mean, let alone carrying around telephones in your pocket or being able to talk to people, you know, on your wristwatch. But I came along in the '50s with the post-war baby boom, and it was the largest population cohort in American history and it became the most educated, the best educated, and also the wealthiest because America was going through this great boom of... financial boom after winning the war. Uh, and when we came of age in the early '60s, when people my... I turned 21 in whenever it was, (laughs) -

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:05

      (laughs)

   7. JWJann Wenner1:05

      ... mid '60s. So, I mean, um, as we grew up, we kind of discovered that America wasn't what we... they told us it was gonna be. You know, that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which I believed in deeply, they didn't... it wasn't that way, you know. In fact, first off, we were running this segregation system, Jim Crow. I mean, Blacks, people, human beings were kept in the most worst circumstances and it was an outrage to see that. And then all these other things started to become apparent, the hypocrisy of the society we were in, and that's the stuff that Dylan was writing about. And boom, boom, boom, all of a sudden we're in a war. Our young, beautiful president is assassinated. Uh, the, the dreams we were told, the American dream, weren't quite true. We were... So, it created this crucible which made us further an even more unusual generation. I mean, a generation raised, unfortunately, to not trust the government and to think the government's doing wrong in Vietnam and all these things. It was disillusioning. So that's how we grew up and it made us more rebellious than ever, uh, and more skeptical, and in a certain way, deeply committed to human justice and human rights and, and to caring for people, and the things that I think became the dominant themes of my generation. And music, that desire to do good in the world, to make the world a better place.

2. 2:31 – 4:58

   Psychedelics, rock, and early technology as drivers of cultural revolution

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:31

      It was a giant change in culture. I think the change in culture in the 1960s was, was one of the greatest changes in, in human history and such a shift from the '50s to the '60s. I mean, you know, I always... I attribute it to a lot of things, uh, the Vietnam era, uh, for sure the war, like, galvanized a lot of people to understand the dangers of not understanding really what's going on with, with the government and what, what the country's really all about. But also psychedelic drugs, which is really a huge part of it.

   2. JWJann Wenner3:05

      Well, let's throw some sugar into the mix.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:07

      Yes.

   4. JWJann Wenner3:08

      You know? But (laughs) I feel... one of the points is, our parents, my parents grew up at a time when we fought... the United States fought a world war for justice, democracy, defeated the bad guys, was victorious. You know, the army, the army started integrating America, more European fashion were coming over. My generation, our generation grew up with the war in Vietnam, a war we were ashamed of, didn't wanna fight. It split the country in two. I mean, so we did an entirely different experience. But your point that in this crucible as we got old, I mean, as we started our young maturity and going to college, two giant things happened: the emergence of rock and roll and the emergence of drugs, and I'd add a third, which is the emergence of technology starts about then. So, oh, I, I feel... psychedelics were tremendously important in my life, to me. I wrote, I write about it openly in the book. I thought, you know, "Why, why cover that up?" I mean, I took a lot of acid when I was in college. I learned lots from it. It changed my worldview. It, it deepened my love of rock and roll and it deepened my love of just the natural world around me. You know, just, wow, everything's so cool and so precious and so unusual, every little bit of it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:24

      Yeah, it's a wonderment enhancer.

   6. JWJann Wenner4:26

      En- uh, wonder- that's... that I, I exp- I was trying to figure out how to say it and I said, "Well..." I thought in a way it gave you the sense of the oneness of everything and the preciousness of everything. And it's hard to describe all that philosophical stuff, but everything is interconnected. I mean, at such a fundamental level. But this was also the me- message of music, and that two things, it just overpowered me and, and changed my life and made me want to, in the end, start Rolling Stone and bring that news to the world.

3. 4:58 – 5:31

   Launching Rolling Stone in 1967: perfect timing in San Francisco’s scene

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:58

      What year did you start Rolling Stone?

   2. JWJann Wenner4:59

      '67.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:00

      Wow, perfect timing.

   4. JWJann Wenner5:01

      So in '67, when I started in San Francisco, we had... Bill Graham started the first FM underground radio stations there. There was Monterey Pop Festival. Sgt. Pepper's was issued, a clear, clear shout-out around the world saying, "Hey, come on, let's all have fun. You know, (laughs) let's get all in this love machine together."

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:22

      Yeah.

   6. JWJann Wenner5:22

      I mean, it was... and Rolling Stone. So it's like a real call around the world. Are you ready for a brand new beat? You know what I mean? And wow, the world responded.

4. 5:31 – 8:06

   Why Rolling Stone mattered: the “tribal telegraph” and a missing mainstream story

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:31

      Well, it's such... Rolling Stone magazine, particularly then, was such an important part of the counterculture, because there was no voice in mainstream media that was equal to it. There was nothing like it. There was no, no voice that, you know, spoke to the, the young people that were dissatisfied with the way things were going.

   2. JWJann Wenner5:54

      If you take a time capsule back to '67, there was nothing about rock and roll in magazines, newspapers, television, uh-... whatever the mass media was. And in fact, the thing with them, Time Magazine, they all looked down on rock and roll. It's all like raunchy, or for teenage girls, or nonsense, or foolishness. I mean, it w- ... They, they didn't like it and I don't think it was so much the music. They just didn't like what young people were doing, and the threat of rock and roll, which was always ... There was something deeply sexual about it, and then it was also long hair and a lot of these little things, which I mean, long hair? I mean, come on. I mean, you ... I know, Joe, you don't get this analogy, but (laughs) I mean, can you imagine? People didn't l- ... U- they were ... You were discriminated 'cause of your hairstyle?

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:42

      Oh, I get the analogy.

   4. JWJann Wenner6:43

      Let alone-

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:44

      Yeah.

   6. JWJann Wenner6:44

      (laughs) Let alone, at the time, you would go to jail if y- if you were gay, you know, if you got caught having sex with a man or that you could not drink out of the same water fountain as a white person if you were Black. I mean, anyway. Uh, far afield, but w- ... So music was the only medium that young people could speak to each other and could communicate with each other and share values and ideas, and that was kind of the power of it, and we called it ... Ralph and I, we called it the tribal telegraph. You know, it was the music was the glue that was gonna hold the generation together, and we came ... We were the only place other than the jukebox and Top 40 radio where you could h- hear anything of this music or hear about it or read about it or participate in it. And so we became one of the most pow- ... more powerful means of communication for the generation, and certainly this great way in which rock artists could communicate with their audience, you know, and John Lennon or Dylan could say what was on their mind or what their intentions or, or how they write a song, wrote a song or be taken seriously. And Rolling Stone was like a, a letter from the ... It was this love letter from home for, or this letter from home for so many people that I meet today and that I've met all through on people saying, "I lived in this small town and you were the lifeline," or, "You were ..." You know, "You meant everything to me in my life." Um-

5. 8:06 – 10:28

   Building it on the fly: volunteers, ambition, and learning the magazine business

   1. JRJoe Rogan8:06

      Did you have this sense of what it was going to be when you first created it? Like, what was the ... What were the early days like?

   2. JWJann Wenner8:13

      (coughs) Well, I don't think ... I wasn't ... I had no sense of what it could become. I mean, I had these kind of grandiose ideas that it would be the best magazine in the world, of course. It would sell zillions of copies, of course. I mean, but I had no idea what success really was gonna be. How you defined it, either financially or spiritually or emotionally or if it's in the world of magazines. You know, it was just like ... I was on my r- ... I was on my trip. It w- ... And we, we put it out with volunteers, so it wasn't like a professional operation. (laughs) It was ... We were kids. I'd never done it before. I knew nothing about the business of it, but people liked it, and it, it just quickly started growing and growing and growing and growing 'cause it was good news about something we all loved. It was about music. It was the only place you could read about something that was so passionate to me. I mean, I ... That Berkeley experience of taking LSD and going to all those shows every weekend with Airplane! and, uh, Jefferson Air- and then Grateful Dead and Janis and all the groups that were then ... Powerful for me. I mean, really. I wanted to be a part of that, and listening to the Beatles and the Stones and Dylan. I wanted to be a part of that. I, I wanted to be a part of that world.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:25

      In a lot of ways, what the internet is today, and this sort of new independent voice, that sort of ... Rolling Stone was like that for that culture in, in that era. It was ... There was no other message like that that was out there in mainstream media.

   4. JWJann Wenner9:43

      Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, yeah. Alone, and, um, it was kind of like the big ... one of the biggest stories in American history, and the med- mainstream media had ... was missing it, which was the boom, the cultural revolution in which we thought culture, consciousness could be the most powerful way of changing a society. And while it's not the same as guns and gasoline, it's had a powerful, huge effect on what America is and what America stands for and what America looks like. It's not that it's changed it entirely over ... you know, in 50 years it's entirely different. Change is always evolutionary, uh, but it's made a huge change, and I ... and it was one of the most important periods in our history.

6. 10:28 – 14:04

   Hunter S. Thompson arrives: “Freak Power in the Rockies” and the Aspen campaign

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:28

      Yeah, and it was a massive, massive time, and again, you guys were really the only ones that were covering it in a way that represented how the young people felt, and, you know, there's so much of your magazine that's tied into ... I mean, I know you walked around here. You saw the Hunter artwork. There's so much of ... You know, when people think about Rolling Stone, a lot of people think about the early days, they think about Hunter. They, you know, they think about when you, uh, you guys covered his run for sheriff. I mean, that was a, that was a giant moment in culture too, that this fucking madman was running for sheriff-

   2. JWJann Wenner11:06

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan11:06

      ... and the panic, the moral panic that people had about, "Oh my God. What if this guy actually becomes a sheriff and takes up all the streets and locks up all the drug dealers-"

   4. JWJann Wenner11:16

      (coughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan11:16

      "... who are actually selling drugs, and then all the drugs would be free?"

   6. JWJann Wenner11:18

      No, he wasn't gonna lock up drug dealers.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:20

      (laughs)

   8. JWJann Wenner11:20

      He was gonna lock up bad drug dealers.

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:21

      Right. (laughs) All the drug dealers that were sellers of drugs.

   10. JWJann Wenner11:24

       Yeah. They would say if they were selling bad drugs that he was gonna put up stocks-

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       Yeah.

   12. JWJann Wenner11:27

       ... kind of on a, uh, main square, and you had to be in a stock, like in, you know, old Williamstown, Massachusetts or something.

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:33

       (laughs)

   14. JWJann Wenner11:33

       He wanted to ... That they sawed the streets in other words, rip up all the asphalt-

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:36

       Yeah.

   16. JWJann Wenner11:36

       ... and make everything grass, which was a good idea. Rename the city from Aspen to Fat City-

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:42

       Yeah.

   18. JWJann Wenner11:42

       On the theory 100% that it'd be more difficult for land developers to sell something called Fat City Estates than Aspen Estates, you know?

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       (laughs)

   20. JWJann Wenner11:51

       And then (coughs) you couldn't ... The police had to be unarmed and then there would be a giant parking lot out of town where you could park at and, and nobody ... Other than residents, c- residents could not hunt or fi- ... Non-residents couldn't hunt or fish, but he came close to winning, and this was in a very wealthy resort town that was starting to have a hippie population.Wh- when we published his, his piece about that, and it was the first thing he did for Rolling Stone, it was called "Freak Power in the Rockies," or "The Battle of Aspen." So i- it got such serious attention and now the press and film crews from New York and all 00:00:17 ] kind of, "Oh, oh, the hippies are gonna try and take over this ski town." "Well, let's see what happens," you know? So much press came and it just raised the stakes and became quite a serious showdown campaign at this wealthy resort, which they came very close to winning. But two things about Hunter just off the bat. Hunter became just the DNA of Rolling Stone. I mean, uh, his spirit, his thinking, his sense of adventure, his sense of fun, his commitment to a better America, were w- at the sp- heart of what we did and, and these were the same things that I felt. And so we bi- we, we just fell in... we became, uh, very fast friends. I mean, we just locked in almost immediately that we saw something special between us that we did together. He could write and I could edit and, you know, I... and we were very partners in a very real sense. Although, there was never... after we first met, there was never a question whether or not we would work... not work with him. It was always, from now on, we work together and he was always overseeing the, what we were doing at the magazine. You know, with ideas, story ideas and writers and he felt very committed to making the magazine a success. And just his own crea... You... Hunter is a, uh, and I l- I love Hunter and to this day, miss him terribly, terribly. And I wrote in my book. I said, "Well, wherever, you know, Hunter ends up, I'm gonna go there too." You know, and who knows where that would be, but-

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:58

       (laughs)

   22. JWJann Wenner13:59

       ... you know? I mean, y- you know, he just meant that much, really.

7. 14:04 – 20:52

   Gonzo friendship and chaos stories: editing Hunter, pranks, and Fear and Loathing’s origins

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:04

      Yeah, the, um, the documentary, the Gonzo documentary, that was the- the first time I ever really got to see you talk about him and, you know-

   2. JWJann Wenner14:13

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:13

      ... you- you were kind of the glue that holds that documentary together 'cause you're sort of the rational observer that was there during all the wildest and most mad times.

   4. JWJann Wenner14:25

      He had... I, I mean, everybody loved to be with Hunter. I mean, y- you couldn't, you couldn't get enough of being with Hunter, you know? And including me after having Hunter al- for so much. When you were with Hunter, when you were with Hunter, you were... like, felt you were gonna have more fun and become close to the edge of craziness and danger than you were ever working in your life. You know, just getting in the car with Hunter, you know, you'd... he- he would always have to do something to scare the sh- p- piss out of you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan14:52

      (laughs)

   6. JWJann Wenner14:52

      Uh, you know, U-turns in the middle of a snowbound highway and one night, we were driving from Cambridge to, uh, New Hampshire to visit Norman Mailer for some strange reason. We had spent the night in Cambridge and we had taken some acid and we got on the road, head full of acid, driving up in the middle

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:11

      (laughs)

   8. JWJann Wenner15:12

      ... of the night to Main- and it's all mountain roads and so we go along and then all of a sudden, like, Hunter would turn the headlights off.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:19

      (laughs)

   10. JWJann Wenner15:19

       And (laughs) I mean, I... you have mixed feelings at this point. (laughs) I've won-... I've by this time developed this sense that I'm safe with Hunter knowing no matter how crazy he is, he knows what he's doing all the time, which he did. Um, so, on the other hand, he liked the idea of freaking people out, so I would go, "Ah! Oh, Hunter! St- stop it! Stop it!" You know, like, "G- g-" and it would just make him happier-

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:41

       (laughs)

   12. JWJann Wenner15:41

       ... to know that I was freaking out, you know? So I was... it was partly just to keep him going. But then I realized what he was doing is he was looking ahead two bends and memorizing the curves ahead so they could turn off the lights-

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       (laughs)

   14. JWJann Wenner15:55

       ... which is risky in itself. But we- we got to Mailer's. We were visiting some... a colleague of mine... ours who was staying at my mom's house. We had the night before and taken acid, made a tape, on a old cassette tape of scream... like an exorcism, you know, and screaming in this house, "Ah! Hah! Ooh! Ah!" You know, it was like ghouls gone nuts. So we get up there 7:00 AM in the morning and set the tape deck in the kitchen of the house, punch it so it starts with the screaming at top volume and run out the door and don't come back. (laughs) Well, he loved to do that. So we'd, we'd steal restaurant signs and that. I mean, there was all sorts of madness and crazy, and it was fun, you know? And it was innocent. It was like being a kid. You know? And, and part Hunter was a big kid, but also, ah, you know, I... he... he was just a, a wonderful guy and of course the funniest writer ever. I enjoyed, I... his copy come in, I just laughed my head off at some of the things he'd say. I mean, unbelievably funny.

   15. JRJoe Rogan16:58

       I think the first thing I read was the, the Vegas story.

   16. JWJann Wenner17:02

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:02

       That was one of the first pieces I ever read of him.

   18. JWJann Wenner17:04

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:04

       And I remember thinking like, "Who the fuck writes like this?"

   20. JWJann Wenner17:08

       (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan17:08

       (laughs) Like, it's... it was... I don't remember how old I was when I read it, but, uh, you know, it was before... I think it was before or around the time Johnny Depp played him in the movie.

   22. JWJann Wenner17:18

       No, much before.

   23. JRJoe Rogan17:20

       No, when he wrote-

   24. JWJann Wenner17:20

       When he wrote the... when he read it.

   25. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       When I read it. Yeah.

   26. JWJann Wenner17:22

       Uh...

   27. JRJoe Rogan17:23

       'Cause I think the movie introduced me to him.

   28. JWJann Wenner17:27

       The movie introduced you to Hunter?

   29. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       Yeah.

   30. JWJann Wenner17:28

       Wow. I mean (laughs) you're, you can even believe such a person took place, but that was a faithful portrayal-
8. 20:52 – 30:45

   Rolling Stone expands into national politics: McGovern/Carter coverage and “least factual, most accurate” truth

   1. JWJann Wenner20:52

      I mean, once you have Reagan leading the country, things change. You know, the mood is different. The values of society seem different. In the '70s we had a, either a full-scale rebellion going on against Nixon, you know, which was an exciting time to be alive and seeing the Watergate hearings and Shulzin's triumph and all that stuff. And then Carter at the end of the '70s, you know, the first real rock and roll president, uh, and who Hunter had a great if- love of and who, uh, Carter loved him. You know? And Carter loved Dylan and, and was of that spirit.

   2. JRJoe Rogan21:28

      It's a great, there's a great moment in the documentary where, um, w- it talks about Hunter being at Carter's speech.

   3. JWJann Wenner21:35

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:36

      And going back to get his tape recorder and, and recognizing that this is, uh, this is a very unusual moment, and this guy's different.

   5. JWJann Wenner21:44

      He was going up there and C- Carter was talking about the quality of justice.

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:48

      Yeah.

   7. JWJann Wenner21:49

      You know, and talking about his spiritual ideas that he got from Reinhold Niebuhr, if I've pr- pronounced that correctly, and quoting Dylan, and, uh, very unusual for a politician.

   8. JRJoe Rogan22:00

      Yeah.

   9. JWJann Wenner22:01

      And it was an accident really. It looked like Teddy Kennedy was gonna run for president then and be the nominee so we were, have, Hunter was following Teddy around and Teddy had to go to Georgia to be a guest of honor at the Law Day- at the law school there for Law Day. And Carter spoke and gave this remarkable thing. You don't hear people, politicians talk like that. Then anyway he didn't. And Hunter was knocked down and we kind of got aboard the, uh, Carter campaign, wrote about Hunter almost, you know, kind of we became a part of it in a way. Uh, and between Hunter's coverage of the McGovern campaign and the Carter campaign, it, p- particularly the McGovern, it put Rolling Stone on the map in a way... Well, although we'd done big stories and broken things before, the idea that we were k- the rock and roll magazine was covering national politics. And furthermore, the guy doing it was best known for covering motorcycle gangs, you know.

   10. JRJoe Rogan22:59

       Yeah.

   11. JWJann Wenner22:59

       And p- plus sweating all the time because he's boozing and dr- enjoying. That riveted everybody and it brought real attention to us because Hunter wrote the best coverage of the campaign.

   12. JRJoe Rogan23:11

       Yeah.

   13. JWJann Wenner23:11

       The best stuff about the Kennedys, the best about the political strategy, and also Rolling Stone was part of the, the annual big national story competing with The New York Times, everybody else had on and he beat them all. We were better than the rest of them.

   14. JRJoe Rogan23:25

       Yeah, well that was, that was r- where it really sort of captured the way young people were actually feeling versus the way it was being described. You want some more of that?

   15. JWJann Wenner23:37

       I think I'll go click with the water.

   16. JRJoe Rogan23:39

       Okay.

   17. JWJann Wenner23:40

       Ah. (liquid pouring)

   18. JRJoe Rogan23:47

       I mean, that was, you know, what, what your magazine had covered and what he had covered with fear and loathing on the campaign trail, l- was the way young people were feeling about it versus the way it was being represented on television-

   19. JWJann Wenner24:00

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan24:00

       ... and in newspapers and it was, people finally had a real voice that spoke to them, and it really resonated-

   21. JWJann Wenner24:09

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan24:09

       ... with people.

   23. JWJann Wenner24:09

       Yeah, 'cause to see it through Hunter's eyes. Also it was the y- first time that 18-year-olds were allowed to vote, was in 1972. And so that made it extra interesting to young people. And then also there was the war in Vietnam as a big background. I mean, that was-

   24. JRJoe Rogan24:23

       Yeah.

   25. JWJann Wenner24:23

       ... yeah, that makes everything-... stand out in high relief. Uh, but also Hunter was extremely fun. They were pieces just... you didn't have to know anything about politics to read those pieces. They were so funny. I mean, these things... His coming up with, like, Senator Muskie was shooting-

   26. JRJoe Rogan24:40

       Yeah. (laughs)

   27. JWJann Wenner24:40

       ... iboga- gain on the campaign... I mean, and literally, people would come up to you and say, "Is it true about the ibogaine?"

   28. JRJoe Rogan24:46

       (laughs)

   29. JWJann Wenner24:46

       "Come on." You know, ibogaine being a drug from the pineal gland of some exotic South African a- animal that enables you to stand still without making a movement but your, your functions and breathing is still... for 24 hours and it... And the m- m- muskie was having a problem with this drug? I mean, and people asked me about... (laughs) Where Hunter would give away his credentials to some wild-ass hippie to invite him on the, the campaign trail. He says, "Oh, is it pranks, or..." I mean, you, you just couldn't have asked for anything better. And as I say, that year of the campaign coverage, I just, I just had the best time. Occasionally, I'd go out and meet him on the campaign trail. The late nights were hysterical. The... But the filing of the copy when he'd write this stuff, and you just couldn't understand where the hell did this i- idea come from, you know?

   30. JRJoe Rogan25:31

       What did Mc- how did McGovern describe his book? He said it was the most accurate and least factual?
9. 30:45 – 42:27

   The wheels come off: addiction, fame, and Hunter as a captive to expectations

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:45

      How hard was it for you to watch the wheels come off on him?

   2. JWJann Wenner30:50

      It was tough. You know, I mean, uh, uh, after the Watergate, I kept... we kept trying to work together, but I'd give him assignment after assignment and he didn't... wouldn't do it. Or a couple, like, he went to Zaire to look at the... to look at the Ali fight there, the rumble in the jungle. It was Ali and Foreman, I think?

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:09

      Yes.

   4. JWJann Wenner31:10

      And didn't go to the fight.

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:12

      Yeah.

   6. JWJann Wenner31:12

      Spent the afternoon lollygagging in the pool. You know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:15

      It was... uh, it was because he thought that it was a mismatch? Is that what the idea was?

   8. JWJann Wenner31:19

      I... I don't... I think there's two things. I mean, I think that, uh, you'd have to... what do you write about a prize fight that... when there's 50 other writers there? You know, everybody's got every angle covered. But on the other hand, he, he had access to Ali. Ali and he were both hometown Louisville boys. They were homies. Not that they didn't know each other, but also, we were really close with Bob Arum, who was... I mean, he could have gotten it, but I... I just think he got s- frightened of it, it got lazy, too much drugs, those things. And, uh, you know, since we worked together less, uh, it was... saw less of me. He'd come to New York, we'd always get together. I'd always see him in Aspen. But, uh, you know, it just became frustrating, you know? And you'd... we'd sit down and talk and have a big, long session all night about what we'll do next and this, and plan and come up with sort of ideas and laugh our heads off about them and then let it go. But then it wouldn't happen. You know, I'd go back and he just couldn't follow. But finally, I think in the '90s, he did two of the best pieces he ever did for us out of the blue. One was called Fear and Loathing in Elko, which he started to write because there was a snow storm in Aspen, which shut down Aspen for about 10 or 12 days, during which time he couldn't get his hands on any cocaine.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:40

      (laughs)

   10. JWJann Wenner32:41

       (laughs) And... and he started to write this really beautiful piece, you know? And it was hysterical. It was, like, very dark compared to Vegas, but it was like Fear and Loathing in El- Elko where he runs into Judge Clarence Thomas in the middle of this desert who's just had a car accident. And Judge Thomas is running a whorehouse-

   11. JRJoe Rogan33:04

       (laughs)

   12. JWJann Wenner33:05

       ... in Elko, Nevada, so he goes... so... and it goes from there. And, um, it was, again, hysterical and it was like old times. It was great. And then you'd find one last piece about Roxanne Pulitzer, which was beautiful, beautiful piece. It was so funny. And it was really... you know, it was about rich people living in Palm Beach taking tons of blow, and blow was, you know, the right assignment for Hunter. It was... the assignment really wasn't so much about the Pulitzer cases, it was about what blow does to people, you know?

   13. JRJoe Rogan33:38

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JWJann Wenner33:39

       And this is something he knew about. Anybody... it was painful and, you know, we... I had to talk with Hunter, of course. It's in my book about trying to get him to go to rehab, about willing to pay for it, do whatever necessary. I said, "You know, I appreciate..." He wouldn't get angry at me. He goes, "I appreciate it. I know what you're trying to do here, but... and I've thought about it, but I- I'm, I'm a... I'm a drug addict, you know, an alcoholic, and that's what it's gonna be." And, and, and frankly, if I didn't take drugs, I would probably have been an accountant, you know?

   15. JRJoe Rogan34:08

       (laughs)

   16. JWJann Wenner34:08

       I had the mind of an accountant.

   17. JRJoe Rogan34:11

       (laughs)

   18. JWJann Wenner34:11

       But he remained lifelong friends and, you know, it was a very sad day when he died and very upsetting. And, you know? But, uh, you know, I... he always knew I had his back and vice versa. He had mine.

   19. JRJoe Rogan34:27

       Oftentimes, when someone becomes a cultural icon like that, like he was, you become kind of a captive to what your audience thinks you are.

   20. JWJann Wenner34:38

       This exactly happened to Hunter. Um, when we were covering the '72 campaign, he was a little bit of a celebrity on that campaign among the other reporters on the campaign. I mean, we were going, you know, on all the establishment, you know, major Washington White House correspondents and campaign writers at the Times and everything. And they would go, "Oh, there's Hunter." And, or maybe sometimes There's Hunter, he's the real deal from Rolling Stone." You know, 'cause everybody read Rolling Stone at that point. And he used to be like this, but his behavior and his charm was such, it just... everybody wanted to hang around with him and it made him... difficult for him to sometimes write. He'd have to get away-

   21. JRJoe Rogan35:15

       Yeah.

   22. JWJann Wenner35:16

       ... so he could write stuff. But I'd go out there and everybody's hanging out. I mean, the most distinguished people, you know, were going, "Why don't you hang around with this drug addict and a rock and roll editor?" But that was a bit of annoyance, but it was fine. But then it just became too much. I mean... and then there was the Garry Trudeau Doonesbury cartoon-

   23. JRJoe Rogan35:36

       Yeah.

   24. JWJann Wenner35:37

       ... strip in which he took one of Hunter's best characters, Raoul Duke, whom... was the original author of Fear and Loathing out of Las Vegas. We n- never said it was by Hunter, we said it was by Raoul Duke.

   25. JRJoe Rogan35:50

       Right.

   26. JWJann Wenner35:52

       And made a cartoon figure out of the character. I mean, it was... of this outrage... He took, he took Hunter himself and made him a cartoon character, and it was really diminishment of his talent.

   27. JRJoe Rogan36:06

       Did he ever talk to Garry about that?

   28. JWJann Wenner36:09

       I think in a kind of, kind of ho-ho way, not in any... I think Hunter was... I told Hunter he could and should sue and stop it. I mean, I thought it was clearly a appropriation of his intellectual property-

   29. JRJoe Rogan36:24

       Right.

   30. JWJann Wenner36:24

       ... being used whole hog by somebody else, and I thought it should stop because I just think that's bad for him. You know, and that- that created more celeb- celebrity than anything, is he was Uncle Duke, the crazy guy, you know? Not the serious writer, but the crazy goofball.
10. 42:27 – 1:01:08

    Drugs and culture: LSD and marijuana vs. cocaine, plus the failures of the War on Drugs

    1. JWJann Wenner42:27

       And, um, I- I thought cocaine, in the end, and I, again, say so in this book, and was a real waste of time and real destructive. I mean, I embrace LSD. Rolling Stones was- was on a crusade for-... the legalization, decriminalization of pot for the- virtually the beginning, going at narcotic squads and the drug laws and on and on. We just went so much space to this hideous laws that locked up innocent young people, particularly Black people, for the crime of smoking pot, a victimless crime of smoking pot, which was (sighs) so much less dangerous than just drinking-

    2. JRJoe Rogan43:07

       Yeah.

    3. JWJann Wenner43:08

       ... in Florida. But people go to jail for years. They'd be the sole ... In any case, we advocated for that. Uh, you know, I think LSD is a good drug for lots of people and ... properly used. But cocaine and speed are just a kind of waste of time. You don't really get much done. You end up going around in circles. And I, I, I say in my book, if I could take it back, I would take back all that cocaine. I, I also quote Jimmy Buffett in the book, who's a- another good friend who, who, who put- I thought had the best line about this. He ... "There is nothing worth talking about after 2:00 in the morning."

    4. JRJoe Rogan43:42

       (laughs)

    5. JWJann Wenner43:45

       And that's it. (laughs) So, I mean, waste of time and waste of, you know, opportunities to have w- a wonderful set. It's just a lot, you know. Ugh.

    6. JRJoe Rogan43:56

       Yeah. I've never fucked around with coke.

    7. JWJann Wenner43:58

       Well, it, it's to- not too late.

    8. JRJoe Rogan44:00

       (laughs)

    9. JWJann Wenner44:00

       You could throw, throw your life away, Joe. Come on.

    10. JRJoe Rogan44:03

        Well, I was very fortunate that when I was in high school-

    11. JWJann Wenner44:05

        Somehow, Rogan deteriorated over the years.

    12. JRJoe Rogan44:07

        Yeah.

    13. JWJann Wenner44:08

        He went that way with Hunter.

    14. JRJoe Rogan44:10

        Some of my favorite people did a lot of coke.

    15. JWJann Wenner44:12

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan44:12

        C- Richard Pryor, the shirt I'm wearing.

    17. JWJann Wenner44:14

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JRJoe Rogan44:15

        Kinnison, I mean, so many of them. They were, they were into coke. But, uh, I was very fortunate that when I was in high school, uh, a good friend of mine, his cousin was selling coke. And I watched him deteriorate rapidly. He was doing coke every day and he was selling it. And him and his girlfriend just ... They had an attic apartment, and they would hide in this apartment. And I went to visit him once, and it was like ... I'd known him before he did coke and then I knew him afterwards, and it was like a person who had been bit by a vampire. He'd been-

    19. JWJann Wenner44:43

        Wow.

    20. JRJoe Rogan44:43

        He'd become a different person. He'd lost all this weight and just seemed creepy. And, uh-

    21. JWJann Wenner44:48

        It is. And that, that's a description of, like, methamphetamines, right?

    22. JRJoe Rogan44:50

        Creepy. Yeah. Same kind of thing. It's stimulants. There's something about stimulants. That they, they grab ahold of you. They become physically addictive, unlike marijuana, which I mean-

    23. JWJann Wenner45:00

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JRJoe Rogan45:00

        I guess could be psychologically addictive, but there's ... The physical addiction part of it was, uh, very bizarre to see. And it affected other people that I was around, too, at the time. And, uh, at that time, I was very straight-laced. I didn't f- do any drugs or partying or anything. And I re- I remember thinking, "That is something I never, never want to be a part of."

    25. JWJann Wenner45:20

        Lucky you. I mean, it d- it damaged tons of people in rock and roll community.

    26. JRJoe Rogan45:24

        Oh, yeah.

    27. JWJann Wenner45:25

        And it ... I think it set a lot of things way off track, you know?

    28. JRJoe Rogan45:30

        Well, it gives you confidence and reinforces bad ideas.

    29. JWJann Wenner45:35

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan45:35

        Which, uh, I think the last thing a super popular person wants is confidence. That's the last thing you need in your life. You got plenty of that. That's why you're there. You don't want to reinforce that and feed that demon, which is one of the things that I think is very powerful about psychedelics and about marijuana because it erodes all of these, uh, cultural expectations and all these thoughts of who you are and what you are and all, all these, uh, these egocentric ideas. And it leaves you with this, like, sense of, like, just vulnerability. And that's what marijuana does. It ga- gives you this vulnerability and connection and just ... It, it gives you what you need.
11. 1:01:08 – 1:20:13

    Progress, backlash, and party politics: rights, Roe fears, climate urgency, and nuclear energy

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:01:08

       ... like about their parents' generations and they're expanding.You know, it's just ... Today, it's- it's hard to track 'cause there's so many voices and there's so much going on. And there's also this fear that things are actually rolling back in the wrong direction.

    2. JWJann Wenner1:01:22

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:01:22

       Like this overturning of Roe v. Wade.

    4. JWJann Wenner1:01:25

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:01:25

       That scares the shit out of a lot of people.

    6. JWJann Wenner1:01:26

       Yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:01:26

       And the- the talk of overturning same-sex marriages, that scares the shit out of a lot of people too, because they really are worried that some of these people that don't like this progress and don't like the w- the freedom that people are enjoying today, and they wanna pull things back and they wanna control people more.

    8. JWJann Wenner1:01:44

       This is a Republican Party, and, uh, the- the- what the Republican, National Republican Party stands for is so retrograde, uh, is so out of step with America, is so cruel. In every one of those policy sight, there- there cr- there's cruelty at the basis of it. Uh, to- to- every- every economic policy they advocate comes at the expense of the poor people, whether it's abortion, uh, uh, uh, uh, welfare, medical care, the big- these big expenses like tax policies, it's never at the expense of the rich. It's the expense of the poor. And these people are supposed to espouse Christian values. I find it the most un-Christian party in the United States. It's this mean spirit, I mean, every ... Take away people's rights. Let's restrict what people do. Let's control their lives. I mean, it's- it's terrible, you know. And that spirit has always existed in America in various forms and places over the years. You know, we've had the Ku Klux Klan and we had the Civil War and we've had Father Coughlin and McCarthyism and stuff like that. But never has it been so mainstreamed as- as Trump has been able to, you know, act as a champion. And- and I- I just don't see how people can live with themselves. And I- I think everything we're worried about in a future America, including anti-environmentalism, including the refusal to face the facts (laughs) of science that we're g- that they- we're ruining the planet, comes out of the Republican Party, I mean-

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:03:19

       Well, I think the fear is that we're gonna deteriorate the country economically while trying to fix it environmentally.

    10. JWJann Wenner1:03:25

        Right.

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:03:25

        And that there's gotta be a, like a more sensible approach to it.

    12. JWJann Wenner1:03:29

        I th- I- I understand. I've heard that.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:03:32

        Yeah.

    14. JWJann Wenner1:03:32

        And I think that's bullshit. I think that any- every econom- every economist that we know of, that we respect for intelligence says that the opportunity to create all this new manufacturing, to go green, to- to commission rebuilding of America is an enormous economic energy, uh, opportunity. If we deficit financed, you know, a trillion, $2 trillion to rebuild the- the infra- energy infrastructure, you create more jobs, more opportunities, you know. Yes, you have to retrain people. Yes, there will be reloca- you know, dislocation of jobs and all these things, but I don't think ... It'll go fast. Your pal, Elon Musk, l- I mean, that's new. That's creating jobs. That's all positive stuff. That can be replicated and the government is trying to replicate it with tax, uh, breaks for companies that do all those kind of stuff, batteries, and so on. That could be done around the world and it can be done here first and foremost. Skipping the fact of that if we don't do it (laughs) , what do they say about I enjoy ... L- life is better than the alternative?

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:36

        Yeah.

    16. JWJann Wenner1:04:37

        I mean, if they don't do it, we're done, you know.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:04:40

        We're done how?

    18. JWJann Wenner1:04:41

        The planet's gonna become irrec- unrecognizable in 50 years.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:04:45

        In what way?

    20. JWJann Wenner1:04:46

        Look at Florida today. That's gonna happen with increasing frequency. Look at the West. Fires will increa- you know, the amount of extreme weather, the melting of the ice, all these things are underway. They're visible, they're known. We're not talking about pie-in-the-sky computer models. We're talking about actual historical records, you know, of- of- of what is transpiring with the weather around the planet. And we're gonna upset the weather system, and to put it a different way, we're gonna upset the weather system, become extremely destructive and extremely costly. Miami will be underwater, I guarantee you, uh, and- and you can ... I'll pay you if I ... I'll- I'll owe you money if this isn't true. (laughs)

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:25

        (laughs)

    22. JWJann Wenner1:05:25

        Within 50 years or less, all ... Miami's one random hurricane away from destruction. Look what happened this week in Florida on the West Coast of Florida. All-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:05:37

        But you know, that's always happened in Florida, and it's always happened with- with hurricanes.

    24. JWJann Wenner1:05:41

        But-

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:05:41

        Do you know that hurricanes are more frequent, but less destructive now than they were in 20 years?

    26. JWJann Wenner1:05:46

        I've heard the opposite.

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:05:47

        20 years ago.

    28. JWJann Wenner1:05:48

        I've heard the opposite.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:05:49

        Have you?

    30. JWJann Wenner1:05:49

        That they're less frequent and more destructive 'cause they contain more water in them, more wind in them due to the heating of the Caribbean. In fact, the Caribbean's about two degrees, three degrees warmer (microphone rustles) this summer than it was last summer. But it- it'll happen. I mean, it- it randomly str- these things randomly strike and they're more destructive than they were. All it takes is one of those hurricanes, and it was 12 feet wave coming into-

Episode duration: 2:51:46