EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,037 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drum music) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- NANarrator
(drum music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music plays) Thanks for being here, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate everything you've done.
- JWJann Wenner
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
You have been a part of some wild changes in this country, my friend.
- JWJann Wenner
Well, I think... I start my life, my book out at a time in the '50s in the Eisenhower era where none of all of this, what we see today was conceivable. I mean, let alone carrying around telephones in your pocket or being able to talk to people, you know, on your wristwatch. But I came along in the '50s with the post-war baby boom, and it was the largest population cohort in American history and it became the most educated, the best educated, and also the wealthiest because America was going through this great boom of... financial boom after winning the war. Uh, and when we came of age in the early '60s, when people my... I turned 21 in whenever it was, (laughs) -
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
... mid '60s. So, I mean, um, as we grew up, we kind of discovered that America wasn't what we... they told us it was gonna be. You know, that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which I believed in deeply, they didn't... it wasn't that way, you know. In fact, first off, we were running this segregation system, Jim Crow. I mean, Blacks, people, human beings were kept in the most worst circumstances and it was an outrage to see that. And then all these other things started to become apparent, the hypocrisy of the society we were in, and that's the stuff that Dylan was writing about. And boom, boom, boom, all of a sudden we're in a war. Our young, beautiful president is assassinated. Uh, the, the dreams we were told, the American dream, weren't quite true. We were... So, it created this crucible which made us further an even more unusual generation. I mean, a generation raised, unfortunately, to not trust the government and to think the government's doing wrong in Vietnam and all these things. It was disillusioning. So that's how we grew up and it made us more rebellious than ever, uh, and more skeptical, and in a certain way, deeply committed to human justice and human rights and, and to caring for people, and the things that I think became the dominant themes of my generation. And music, that desire to do good in the world, to make the world a better place.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was a giant change in culture. I think the change in culture in the 1960s was, was one of the greatest changes in, in human history and such a shift from the '50s to the '60s. I mean, you know, I always... I attribute it to a lot of things, uh, the Vietnam era, uh, for sure the war, like, galvanized a lot of people to understand the dangers of not understanding really what's going on with, with the government and what, what the country's really all about. But also psychedelic drugs, which is really a huge part of it.
- JWJann Wenner
Well, let's throw some sugar into the mix.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JWJann Wenner
You know? But (laughs) I feel... one of the points is, our parents, my parents grew up at a time when we fought... the United States fought a world war for justice, democracy, defeated the bad guys, was victorious. You know, the army, the army started integrating America, more European fashion were coming over. My generation, our generation grew up with the war in Vietnam, a war we were ashamed of, didn't wanna fight. It split the country in two. I mean, so we did an entirely different experience. But your point that in this crucible as we got old, I mean, as we started our young maturity and going to college, two giant things happened: the emergence of rock and roll and the emergence of drugs, and I'd add a third, which is the emergence of technology starts about then. So, oh, I, I feel... psychedelics were tremendously important in my life, to me. I wrote, I write about it openly in the book. I thought, you know, "Why, why cover that up?" I mean, I took a lot of acid when I was in college. I learned lots from it. It changed my worldview. It, it deepened my love of rock and roll and it deepened my love of just the natural world around me. You know, just, wow, everything's so cool and so precious and so unusual, every little bit of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's a wonderment enhancer.
- JWJann Wenner
En- uh, wonder- that's... that I, I exp- I was trying to figure out how to say it and I said, "Well..." I thought in a way it gave you the sense of the oneness of everything and the preciousness of everything. And it's hard to describe all that philosophical stuff, but everything is interconnected. I mean, at such a fundamental level. But this was also the me- message of music, and that two things, it just overpowered me and, and changed my life and made me want to, in the end, start Rolling Stone and bring that news to the world.
- JRJoe Rogan
What year did you start Rolling Stone?
- JWJann Wenner
'67.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow, perfect timing.
- JWJann Wenner
So in '67, when I started in San Francisco, we had... Bill Graham started the first FM underground radio stations there. There was Monterey Pop Festival. Sgt. Pepper's was issued, a clear, clear shout-out around the world saying, "Hey, come on, let's all have fun. You know, (laughs) let's get all in this love machine together."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
I mean, it was... and Rolling Stone. So it's like a real call around the world. Are you ready for a brand new beat? You know what I mean? And wow, the world responded.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it's such... Rolling Stone magazine, particularly then, was such an important part of the counterculture, because there was no voice in mainstream media that was equal to it. There was nothing like it. There was no, no voice that, you know, spoke to the, the young people that were dissatisfied with the way things were going.
- JWJann Wenner
If you take a time capsule back to '67, there was nothing about rock and roll in magazines, newspapers, television, uh-... whatever the mass media was. And in fact, the thing with them, Time Magazine, they all looked down on rock and roll. It's all like raunchy, or for teenage girls, or nonsense, or foolishness. I mean, it w- ... They, they didn't like it and I don't think it was so much the music. They just didn't like what young people were doing, and the threat of rock and roll, which was always ... There was something deeply sexual about it, and then it was also long hair and a lot of these little things, which I mean, long hair? I mean, come on. I mean, you ... I know, Joe, you don't get this analogy, but (laughs) I mean, can you imagine? People didn't l- ... U- they were ... You were discriminated 'cause of your hairstyle?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, I get the analogy.
- JWJann Wenner
Let alone-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
(laughs) Let alone, at the time, you would go to jail if y- if you were gay, you know, if you got caught having sex with a man or that you could not drink out of the same water fountain as a white person if you were Black. I mean, anyway. Uh, far afield, but w- ... So music was the only medium that young people could speak to each other and could communicate with each other and share values and ideas, and that was kind of the power of it, and we called it ... Ralph and I, we called it the tribal telegraph. You know, it was the music was the glue that was gonna hold the generation together, and we came ... We were the only place other than the jukebox and Top 40 radio where you could h- hear anything of this music or hear about it or read about it or participate in it. And so we became one of the most pow- ... more powerful means of communication for the generation, and certainly this great way in which rock artists could communicate with their audience, you know, and John Lennon or Dylan could say what was on their mind or what their intentions or, or how they write a song, wrote a song or be taken seriously. And Rolling Stone was like a, a letter from the ... It was this love letter from home for, or this letter from home for so many people that I meet today and that I've met all through on people saying, "I lived in this small town and you were the lifeline," or, "You were ..." You know, "You meant everything to me in my life." Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you have this sense of what it was going to be when you first created it? Like, what was the ... What were the early days like?
- JWJann Wenner
(coughs) Well, I don't think ... I wasn't ... I had no sense of what it could become. I mean, I had these kind of grandiose ideas that it would be the best magazine in the world, of course. It would sell zillions of copies, of course. I mean, but I had no idea what success really was gonna be. How you defined it, either financially or spiritually or emotionally or if it's in the world of magazines. You know, it was just like ... I was on my r- ... I was on my trip. It w- ... And we, we put it out with volunteers, so it wasn't like a professional operation. (laughs) It was ... We were kids. I'd never done it before. I knew nothing about the business of it, but people liked it, and it, it just quickly started growing and growing and growing and growing 'cause it was good news about something we all loved. It was about music. It was the only place you could read about something that was so passionate to me. I mean, I ... That Berkeley experience of taking LSD and going to all those shows every weekend with Airplane! and, uh, Jefferson Air- and then Grateful Dead and Janis and all the groups that were then ... Powerful for me. I mean, really. I wanted to be a part of that, and listening to the Beatles and the Stones and Dylan. I wanted to be a part of that. I, I wanted to be a part of that world.
- JRJoe Rogan
In a lot of ways, what the internet is today, and this sort of new independent voice, that sort of ... Rolling Stone was like that for that culture in, in that era. It was ... There was no other message like that that was out there in mainstream media.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, yeah. Alone, and, um, it was kind of like the big ... one of the biggest stories in American history, and the med- mainstream media had ... was missing it, which was the boom, the cultural revolution in which we thought culture, consciousness could be the most powerful way of changing a society. And while it's not the same as guns and gasoline, it's had a powerful, huge effect on what America is and what America stands for and what America looks like. It's not that it's changed it entirely over ... you know, in 50 years it's entirely different. Change is always evolutionary, uh, but it's made a huge change, and I ... and it was one of the most important periods in our history.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, and it was a massive, massive time, and again, you guys were really the only ones that were covering it in a way that represented how the young people felt, and, you know, there's so much of your magazine that's tied into ... I mean, I know you walked around here. You saw the Hunter artwork. There's so much of ... You know, when people think about Rolling Stone, a lot of people think about the early days, they think about Hunter. They, you know, they think about when you, uh, you guys covered his run for sheriff. I mean, that was a, that was a giant moment in culture too, that this fucking madman was running for sheriff-
- 15:00 – 30:00
(laughs) …
- JWJann Wenner
uh, New Hampshire to visit Norman Mailer for some strange reason. We had spent the night in Cambridge and we had taken some acid and we got on the road, head full of acid, driving up in the middle
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
... of the night to Main- and it's all mountain roads and so we go along and then all of a sudden, like, Hunter would turn the headlights off.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
And (laughs) I mean, I... you have mixed feelings at this point. (laughs) I've won-... I've by this time developed this sense that I'm safe with Hunter knowing no matter how crazy he is, he knows what he's doing all the time, which he did. Um, so, on the other hand, he liked the idea of freaking people out, so I would go, "Ah! Oh, Hunter! St- stop it! Stop it!" You know, like, "G- g-" and it would just make him happier-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
... to know that I was freaking out, you know? So I was... it was partly just to keep him going. But then I realized what he was doing is he was looking ahead two bends and memorizing the curves ahead so they could turn off the lights-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
... which is risky in itself. But we- we got to Mailer's. We were visiting some... a colleague of mine... ours who was staying at my mom's house. We had the night before and taken acid, made a tape, on a old cassette tape of scream... like an exorcism, you know, and screaming in this house, "Ah! Hah! Ooh! Ah!" You know, it was like ghouls gone nuts. So we get up there 7:00 AM in the morning and set the tape deck in the kitchen of the house, punch it so it starts with the screaming at top volume and run out the door and don't come back. (laughs) Well, he loved to do that. So we'd, we'd steal restaurant signs and that. I mean, there was all sorts of madness and crazy, and it was fun, you know? And it was innocent. It was like being a kid. You know? And, and part Hunter was a big kid, but also, ah, you know, I... he... he was just a, a wonderful guy and of course the funniest writer ever. I enjoyed, I... his copy come in, I just laughed my head off at some of the things he'd say. I mean, unbelievably funny.
- JRJoe Rogan
I think the first thing I read was the, the Vegas story.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was one of the first pieces I ever read of him.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I remember thinking like, "Who the fuck writes like this?"
- JWJann Wenner
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Like, it's... it was... I don't remember how old I was when I read it, but, uh, you know, it was before... I think it was before or around the time Johnny Depp played him in the movie.
- JWJann Wenner
No, much before.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, when he wrote-
- JWJann Wenner
When he wrote the... when he read it.
- JRJoe Rogan
When I read it. Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
Uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause I think the movie introduced me to him.
- JWJann Wenner
The movie introduced you to Hunter?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
Wow. I mean (laughs) you're, you can even believe such a person took place, but that was a faithful portrayal-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
... of an individual. And lucky me, uh, he got to be my closest friend for many years and we worked together so closely and all the time for many years. And, um, he was... Johnny got him really well and Johnny loved him. He wrote Vegas in, I think it was 1970, I think was about the time, '70 or '71. No, '70 'cause '71, '72 was the campaign trail. He wrote that. It was when he was writing, he started writing it in my basement in San Francisco when he was living, staying with us and, um, he just... he was on assignment to do something else, some serious thing about the Chicano uprising in L- uh, East Los Angeles but in the middle of that assignment, he had to go to Vegas-... to cover a motorcycle race for Sports Illustrated and they wanted, like, a 200-word caption. But he never turned that in, instead started writing this piece about going to Vegas saying, "It begins, we were somewhere on the edge of Barstow when the drugs took hold."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
And then the image of this red Cadillac and a trunk full of amyls, uppers, downers, guns. You know, just, uh, madness.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 30:00 – 45:00
(laughs) …
- JWJann Wenner
the John Lennon interviews, the Silkwood case, you know, you know, caused a demolition of the Northern California narcotics squads that were
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
... running around. You know, investigated them and a bunch of other stuff, uh, which formed Rolling Stone. And Hunter was not nece-... Was the spiritual ringleader of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJann Wenner
Everybody wanted to be like Hunter. Everybody wanted to write important stuff, not... Nobody imitated him. Everybody knew better than that. But...... to be as good a writer, to be as good as a reporter, to do meaningful, important stuff like Hunter. And that, that's, that, that, that was a formation, foundational spirit of Rolling Stone, was that stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
How hard was it for you to watch the wheels come off on him?
- JWJann Wenner
It was tough. You know, I mean, uh, uh, after the Watergate, I kept... we kept trying to work together, but I'd give him assignment after assignment and he didn't... wouldn't do it. Or a couple, like, he went to Zaire to look at the... to look at the Ali fight there, the rumble in the jungle. It was Ali and Foreman, I think?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JWJann Wenner
And didn't go to the fight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
Spent the afternoon lollygagging in the pool. You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
It was... uh, it was because he thought that it was a mismatch? Is that what the idea was?
- JWJann Wenner
I... I don't... I think there's two things. I mean, I think that, uh, you'd have to... what do you write about a prize fight that... when there's 50 other writers there? You know, everybody's got every angle covered. But on the other hand, he, he had access to Ali. Ali and he were both hometown Louisville boys. They were homies. Not that they didn't know each other, but also, we were really close with Bob Arum, who was... I mean, he could have gotten it, but I... I just think he got s- frightened of it, it got lazy, too much drugs, those things. And, uh, you know, since we worked together less, uh, it was... saw less of me. He'd come to New York, we'd always get together. I'd always see him in Aspen. But, uh, you know, it just became frustrating, you know? And you'd... we'd sit down and talk and have a big, long session all night about what we'll do next and this, and plan and come up with sort of ideas and laugh our heads off about them and then let it go. But then it wouldn't happen. You know, I'd go back and he just couldn't follow. But finally, I think in the '90s, he did two of the best pieces he ever did for us out of the blue. One was called Fear and Loathing in Elko, which he started to write because there was a snow storm in Aspen, which shut down Aspen for about 10 or 12 days, during which time he couldn't get his hands on any cocaine.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
(laughs) And... and he started to write this really beautiful piece, you know? And it was hysterical. It was, like, very dark compared to Vegas, but it was like Fear and Loathing in El- Elko where he runs into Judge Clarence Thomas in the middle of this desert who's just had a car accident. And Judge Thomas is running a whorehouse-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
... in Elko, Nevada, so he goes... so... and it goes from there. And, um, it was, again, hysterical and it was like old times. It was great. And then you'd find one last piece about Roxanne Pulitzer, which was beautiful, beautiful piece. It was so funny. And it was really... you know, it was about rich people living in Palm Beach taking tons of blow, and blow was, you know, the right assignment for Hunter. It was... the assignment really wasn't so much about the Pulitzer cases, it was about what blow does to people, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJann Wenner
And this is something he knew about. Anybody... it was painful and, you know, we... I had to talk with Hunter, of course. It's in my book about trying to get him to go to rehab, about willing to pay for it, do whatever necessary. I said, "You know, I appreciate..." He wouldn't get angry at me. He goes, "I appreciate it. I know what you're trying to do here, but... and I've thought about it, but I- I'm, I'm a... I'm a drug addict, you know, an alcoholic, and that's what it's gonna be." And, and, and frankly, if I didn't take drugs, I would probably have been an accountant, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
I had the mind of an accountant.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
But he remained lifelong friends and, you know, it was a very sad day when he died and very upsetting. And, you know? But, uh, you know, I... he always knew I had his back and vice versa. He had mine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oftentimes, when someone becomes a cultural icon like that, like he was, you become kind of a captive to what your audience thinks you are.
- JWJann Wenner
This exactly happened to Hunter. Um, when we were covering the '72 campaign, he was a little bit of a celebrity on that campaign among the other reporters on the campaign. I mean, we were going, you know, on all the establishment, you know, major Washington White House correspondents and campaign writers at the Times and everything. And they would go, "Oh, there's Hunter." And, or maybe sometimes There's Hunter, he's the real deal from Rolling Stone." You know, 'cause everybody read Rolling Stone at that point. And he used to be like this, but his behavior and his charm was such, it just... everybody wanted to hang around with him and it made him... difficult for him to sometimes write. He'd have to get away-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
... so he could write stuff. But I'd go out there and everybody's hanging out. I mean, the most distinguished people, you know, were going, "Why don't you hang around with this drug addict and a rock and roll editor?" But that was a bit of annoyance, but it was fine. But then it just became too much. I mean... and then there was the Garry Trudeau Doonesbury cartoon-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
... strip in which he took one of Hunter's best characters, Raoul Duke, whom... was the original author of Fear and Loathing out of Las Vegas. We n- never said it was by Hunter, we said it was by Raoul Duke.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Mm-hmm. …
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean-
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
I guess could be psychologically addictive, but there's ... The physical addiction part of it was, uh, very bizarre to see. And it affected other people that I was around, too, at the time. And, uh, at that time, I was very straight-laced. I didn't f- do any drugs or partying or anything. And I re- I remember thinking, "That is something I never, never want to be a part of."
- JWJann Wenner
Lucky you. I mean, it d- it damaged tons of people in rock and roll community.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
And it ... I think it set a lot of things way off track, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it gives you confidence and reinforces bad ideas.
- JWJann Wenner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which, uh, I think the last thing a super popular person wants is confidence. That's the last thing you need in your life. You got plenty of that. That's why you're there. You don't want to reinforce that and feed that demon, which is one of the things that I think is very powerful about psychedelics and about marijuana because it erodes all of these, uh, cultural expectations and all these thoughts of who you are and what you are and all, all these, uh, these egocentric ideas. And it leaves you with this, like, sense of, like, just vulnerability. And that's what marijuana does. It ga- gives you this vulnerability and connection and just ... It, it gives you what you need.
- JWJann Wenner
Marijuana. And appreciation and sensitivity. Slows you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
Slows you down. It's great for listening to music. I used to be-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, it's the best.
- JWJann Wenner
... a big skier, and I loved skiing on pot.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJann Wenner
And, you know, it'd be like, at 10:00 morning, "Is it time to, time to open the office yet?" You know? Um, and other than I c- other than I can't ... You know, if I, I ta- if I smoke a joint, then I start coughing and I got a really raspy throat. And, and edibles last so long, you know, that-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JWJann Wenner
... you've got to ... It's, it's almost like, you know, just ... And then I get tired, you know, so. Um, but any case, speed and cocaine, the last thing you need when you got a lot of coke is money.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJann Wenner
You know? 'Cause then it's nonstop. Then you're never gonna stop.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJann Wenner
And that's what happened to these all, these ... It ruined Sly Stone, Ike Turner.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JWJann Wenner
You know? Uh, the Crosby, Stills, and Nash kind of fell apart. But it ... On the other hand, it gave us, you know, Fleetwood Mac that great record of theirs. Ru- was it Rumors or ... Uh, and it gave us Hotel California, which is a great record.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
And gave us Sticky Fingers, and which is also a great record. And you know, uh, but and they ... Exile on Main Street. I ... (sighs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it gave a- it gave people, y- you know, the chaos of it all, the, the-
- JWJann Wenner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The wildness of it all.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Yeah. …
- JRJoe Rogan
Voice.
- JWJann Wenner
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There was a couple other publications that, you know, but-
- JWJann Wenner
Not with the circulation, the impact-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJann Wenner
... and the- also the incredible amount of talent-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJann Wenner
... of writing skill and photographs that we brought to the occasion. I mean, you go through Rolling Stone or the covers of Rolling Stone, it's the story of your life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
And even for the- you know, even as the last 10 years and stuff like that. And it was a point of view about the world, and I think that point of view still stands.
- JRJoe Rogan
It doesn't, you know, it's ... Ugh.
- JWJann Wenner
I think young people today, for instance, are idly- uh, still idealistic.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JWJann Wenner
Still want, I mean, the save the Earth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
And, uh, and- and I think they don't look down on the baby boom. I don't believe in this go boomer stuff. You know, I don't think there's a attitude towards boomers from young people with ready boomer, steady, whatever it's called.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
I don't-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay boomer.
- JWJann Wenner
Okay boomer, that's it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, well, there's, you know, there's always a dismissal of the previous generations.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, because the new generations are moving in a- a different direction, or at least expanding.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, they're learning from the lessons of the past and what they didn't-
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... like about their parents' generations and they're expanding.You know, it's just ... Today, it's- it's hard to track 'cause there's so many voices and there's so much going on. And there's also this fear that things are actually rolling back in the wrong direction.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like this overturning of Roe v. Wade.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- 1:15:00 – 1:18:20
So you think ...…
- JWJann Wenner
and Democrats are as bad as Republicans. I think that's nuts.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you think ... well, I think socially, Democrats, at least in spirit, what they're trying to do, at least on paper, what they're trying to say is more in line of, like, this idea that you're talking about with the original Rolling Stone, the hippie movement, more in line of-
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... uh, expanding rights and, and giving people more opportunity and giving people more freedom. I think that's ... when you, when you talk to, like, a liberal or a progressive, ideologically, that's what they're hoping for. Like, that's whether they're c- captured by money, you know, at the, the highest levels, which I think they kind of all are. Until you remove money from politics, we're always going to have a problem with special interest groups that are fin- financing both sides.
- JWJann Wenner
But I think ... and that, and that's true, and I think there's long record of Democrats accepting just ... I just mentioned Joe Dodd and the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JWJann Wenner
... $620 million siphoned off with the drug war into the defense industry.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
Um, the ... but if you look at what ... and this money will always be in po- ... there's ways to reduce money in politics, but the Republicans bought you that Supreme Court decision that let corporate financing back in, which is why now elections are so expensive.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJann Wenner
I think it's always gonna be there. I know. But, let's look at fundamental fairness. Is it right for billionaires to pay no taxes or, effectively, very little taxes? Some, some of them. And the working man gets tax raises- uh, bills. I mean, the inequitable d- ... the distribution of, of wealth is so inequitable, you know? And then on top of it, we ask the poor, the middle class to pay enormous medical costs that they can't afford without giving any, any really much meaningful aid to them, you know? We ask that, uh, the c- carbon industry continue to pollute and, and their pollution, by the way, located always in the poorest area of a town. It's where the refinery is, the c- all this stuff. These are Republican agenda items. These are all on record as a ... take for instance, take legalization of marijuana. It's an official part of the Democratic Party platform.
- JRJoe Rogan
But why haven't they done it? Why ha- Why hasn't Biden done it? Because the ... one of the things that they talked about during the campaign was decriminalizing marijuana-
- JWJann Wenner
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and exonerating people that were in-
- JWJann Wenner
Jails.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in, in jail for nonviolent drug offenses.
- JWJann Wenner
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why haven't they done any of that?
- JWJann Wenner
I think because, uh, one, right now it is happening at, at a various states levels. Uh, these laws are not being enforced anymore, and I think that's the general climate. Why they have not moved in the Congress and Senate, in the House and Senate, to pass this plank? I don't know. I presume they may not have the votes 'cause some people won't ... are still too scared of voting against it or they, they're lined up with the police. Uh, the prison industry is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JWJann Wenner
... very likely lined up with the Republicans. But the fact that it's just on the platform, so ... but remember, when you and I started smoking dope, it was disrespectful, you go to jail.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJann Wenner
Now, the Democrats are saying, "Legalize that fucker."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JWJann Wenner
You know? So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, then everyone should be saying it at this point in time if you're really a fan of freedom.
Episode duration: 2:51:46
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