Joe Rogan Experience #1887 - Maynard James Keenan

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Do you ever sauna? Do you do that?

Maynard James Keenan 0:14 I have a sauna, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Yeah?

Maynard James Keenan 0:15 Well-

Joe Rogan 0:15 Do you use it?

Maynard James Keenan 0:16 ... it, it had, um ... Initially, it had issues 'cause it could... the ... It was like a sh- you know, janky-ass, uh, actual heater that, that died, and we had to try to get another-

Joe Rogan 0:27 Swap it out?

Maynard James Keenan 0:27 Yeah, we had to order another one. They like ... No luck with that company, so we just... It's like, "Huh, that company doesn't exist anymore." And so had to get a different one in there, but it's fine. It, uh, we just got done putting a bunch of the, um, oil on it, sa- sauna oil to kinda ... 'Cause Arizona, the, the sun just like cooks everything.

Joe Rogan 0:45 Cooks the fucking wood, so there's like ... It was cracking in spaces, so ... The real hardcore folks, they use the wood-fired sauna, old school, like you're cooking pizza.

Maynard James Keenan 0:54 Yeah. Well, they can do that.

Joe Rogan 0:56 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 0:57 I am not that guy.

Joe Rogan 0:58 Yeah, they sell those. I'm like, "That seems like a lot of work." Plus, you gotta kill trees.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03 And we, you know ... Uh, so we ... Um, you know, we use it quite a bit actually, uh, when it was, when it was running. Uh, but then like I was on the road, and then harvest, so we didn't bother with it until just now. We got it back running.

Joe Rogan 1:15 It's so good for you, man. It's so good. I just got out. I, I do it after every workout. It's like religious. I make sure I get in there right afterwards.

Maynard James Keenan 1:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:23 It's the best.

Maynard James Keenan 1:25 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:25 You're training hard there, fella. Well, y- y- John Danaher teaching you the finer points of triangles. That was fun to watch.

Maynard James Keenan 1:33 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard on, uh ... As you ... I've discussed this before. Uh, being on the road is, uh ... It's hard to find consistent training. Consistent training is your gym, that instructor-

Joe Rogan 1:45 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:46 ... in your city, your drive back and forth to your house, uh, doing two classes a day maybe if you can. You know, like that kind of thing, but like the road is like inconsistent. So, the only consistency I can, I can really rely on is picking a particular subject and going to people that I know that know how to do it.

Joe Rogan 2:05 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 2:05 Rather than allowing them to go, "Hey, I got this cool thing where you go upside down and stand on your head and do a backflip and ..." Like, buggy choke. Don't ... Please, I don't ... I'm 58. Please don't try to tell me, tell me what a buggy choke is right now.

Joe Rogan 2:19 You can't do a buggy choke?

Maynard James Keenan 2:20 I might someday, but right now, I just wanna fucking get the triangles right.

Joe Rogan 2:24 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 2:24 So that's-

Joe Rogan 2:24 Buggy choke's a good thing to learn though, right?

Maynard James Keenan 2:26 Yeah, I wanna learn it, but like I got ... It's ... Let me, let me learn it when I'm gonna spend three weeks on it.

Joe Rogan 2:32 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 2:33 And focused on it with somebody who understands the details, somebody who also understands the counters, because the counters end up being as important as understanding, uh, the actual thing.

Joe Rogan 2:44 Yeah, somebody caught a buggy choke recently in MMA. I think it was in Bellator.

Maynard James Keenan 2:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:48 And the dude picked him up and slammed him.

Maynard James Keenan 2:50 And he's out.

Joe Rogan 2:50 Uh, yeah, he got fucked up, and then he beat the shit out of him. I was like, "Hmm, yeah, that makes sense." 'Cause it's like you really are committed to that.

Maynard James Keenan 2:57 You've attached yourself to the person and that they're big and strong and can drop y-

Joe Rogan 3:00 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 3:01 ... drop you on some ... A surface.

Joe Rogan 3:03 You just don't have options like you do with a triangle. You know, like if, uh, someone picks you up with a triangle, you drop down to the leg. You g- you let go. Like, when you're in a buggy choke, you're kinda committed I think.

Maynard James Keenan 3:13 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:13 Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I could, should talk to like the Rotolo bro- ... Yeah, this is it right here. This ... No, this is not it. This is a different one. (sniffs) But people are getting these left and right now. You know, they ... Someone pulled one off in the UFC the other day, and, uh, uh, people didn't even know what the fuck it was.

Maynard James Keenan 3:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:29 I had to kind of explain it. I'm like, "This is so fascinating that this is a technique that is, uh, you know, for jujitsu, it's been around for like a year or so." He's out cold. Um, for jujitsu, it's been around for, for years rather, but for MMA, it's just, just starting to be applied.

Maynard James Keenan 3:47 Right. But the beautiful thing about especially that high level, uh, of MMA is that somebody's gonna figure out how to, how to counter it-

Joe Rogan 3:55 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 3:55 ... or, or prevent it. And then, then it's, then it's, uh, it's gone. Like, so-

Joe Rogan 4:00 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 4:00 I mean, for a while, yeah, like all of a sudden, people were catching, uh, the von Flue, and then all of a sudden, people are like, "No, no, I'm gonna, we're gonna counter that now." But then every now and then-

Joe Rogan 4:08 Yeah, well-

Maynard James Keenan 4:09 ... somebody catches one.

Joe Rogan 4:10 OSP's the master.

Maynard James Keenan 4:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:11 He's the best at it. He's caught more of them than von Flue. Von Flue, I think, invented it, but OSP I think has more than anybody. He gets it all the time. It's like, it's an, a natural instinct when someone takes you down to hang onto that guillotine. You just wanna have some sort of control over them. And then all of a sudden, that person shifts weight, and they're on top of you sideways. You're like, "Oh, shit." Then your arm is trapped.

Maynard James Keenan 4:31 Good night.

Joe Rogan 4:32 Yeah, it's a nasty choke. There's this ... Jujitsu is so beautiful. It's so cool watching you guys today, like watching Danaher. Like, I learned something, that position of the knee to the ear. Like, I didn't know that. And I kind of, kind of did it anyway, but, like, watching the ... Like, he's so good at pointing out the finer details.

Maynard James Keenan 4:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:54 You know, he's just such a master. What a fucking interesting person he is. There's no John Danahers out there.

Maynard James Keenan 5:01 No.

Joe Rogan 5:02 Like if you said-

Maynard James Keenan 5:02 No.

Joe Rogan 5:02 ... "I want a guy who was a professor of philosophy at Columbia University who's a genius, who fell in love with jujitsu and is dedicated to it so much so that he walks around with a rash guard every day." (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 5:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:15 He doesn't even have regular clothes.

Maynard James Keenan 5:17 Yeah. (laughs) I was like ... I just, uh, just ... I ... You know, I was just kidding myself like, "So, John, are we gonna do, gonna do gi or no gi?"

Joe Rogan 5:22 Ah.

Maynard James Keenan 5:23 It's like ...

Joe Rogan 5:24 I think he abandoned the gi a long time ago, right?

Maynard James Keenan 5:26 Yeah. He was like, "No gi." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:29 Yeah. I mean, you can do ... The good thing about doing the gi is you must be defensively responsible because you can't get out of stuff. You can't just power out of things. You know, like there's certain techniques that you just ... You know, when you get trapped in them, you really have to mind your Ps and Qs when you get out if you have a gi.

Maynard James Keenan 5:48 Yeah. And, and you know, I like, I like training both because I like, um, kind of training my mind to not rely on the gi.

Joe Rogan 5:55 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 5:55 But then when it's ... When there's something like a lapel or a, you know, a jacket or a, a gi available, then-

Joe Rogan 6:03 ... yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 6:03 I've trained how to deal with that piece of fabric, that's your now tool for you.

Joe Rogan 6:08 Well, I got very fortunate that I learned Gi from Jean Jacques Machado. And Jean Jacques Machado only has one hand. His left hand, he only has a thumb. So, Jean Jacques' game was always over hooks, and underhooks, and clinch. And, you know, that's why he was so successful in Abu Dhabi in the early days, 'cause it... All of his strategy completely applied to No-Gi, you know.

Maynard James Keenan 6:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 6:31 So, I sort of... When I was training, uh, with Gi, with, uh, Jean Jacques in No-Gi with Eddie Bravo, I would do the same things. I would just have to be more responsible defensively when I train with the Gi. You just... You just can't explode.

Maynard James Keenan 6:45 Right.

Joe Rogan 6:45 You know.

Maynard James Keenan 6:46 I got back problems, I probably shouldn't train as much Gi anyway, 'cause guys get a hold of it and then you're... You're dealing with lower back issues.

Joe Rogan 6:53 Do you... Do you have back problems? What kind of back problems you got?

Maynard James Keenan 6:56 Uh, just lower back stuff.

Joe Rogan 6:57 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 6:58 You know? Trying to do all the... Try it every, uh... It's just age and beat- beat down and traveling. You know, like on the bus, trying to describe... I was just trying to describe bus life to you guys out there. Like, you know, it's... You're sleeping in kind of a coffin.

Joe Rogan 7:12 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 7:13 Um, so it's kind of weird. You don't... You can't really sit up, 'cause there's a- a... There's something above your head. And that-

Joe Rogan 7:19 How much time do you spend on a bus?

Maynard James Keenan 7:21 Well, you know, be- between every gig, un- unless there's a day off, so, you know, we're doing two on, three on, and you're... So, you're sleeping on the bus. But it's like, imagine sleeping and then four people on each corner of your bed every 45 minutes just shaking it.

Joe Rogan 7:37 Fuck that.

Maynard James Keenan 7:38 Yeah. So, you're like... You're trying to get a solid seven, eight hours sleep, but you end up having to get 11 hours of sleep because three or four of that is you waking up in the middle of the night, 'cause you hit bumps.

Joe Rogan 7:49 Hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 7:49 Bad roads, you know, shit happens.

Joe Rogan 7:51 So, you... What do you do?

Maynard James Keenan 7:52 Happens.

Joe Rogan 7:52 You have the driver drive you in the middle of the night?

Maynard James Keenan 7:54 Yeah, so after the show, you're in the bus and you're going to the next city. And, you know, depending on the... Depending on the drive. If it's, you know, four hours, six hours, eight hours, nine hours, you know?

Joe Rogan 8:05 Yeah, I have friends who do that, like Bert Kreischer does that. That's his thing. He loves tours and buses. I'm- I'm not into it.

Maynard James Keenan 8:12 I don't love it. Um, I enjoy performing the songs. The travel part is the most difficult part. And then, you know, so you're... You're in air-conditioned, uh, scenarios, so you're getting a little dehydrated. You're trying to have to hydrate a little bit more than you normally would, and you're having to perform that other... That night. So, training is... Can be difficult-

Joe Rogan 8:33 Hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 8:34 ... on the road. So try to do where I... You know, do whatever I can, uh, to get training in.

Joe Rogan 8:39 Yeah, I admire people that, like, just h- hit gyms, like random gyms, to show up at places when they're on the road. Like, that's a bold move.

Maynard James Keenan 8:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:48 Never know who you're gonna train with.

Maynard James Keenan 8:50 Yeah. No, and that's... And I'm... I'm a... I'm a pussy that way, for sure. I- I... Uh, people that I know-

Joe Rogan 8:56 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 8:56 ... I have... I have the mats, they come to me. Or if it's... If I'm going to a place, it's because I know the person.

Joe Rogan 9:01 Do you weight train at all?

Maynard James Keenan 9:03 Not much. I used to a little bit, um, but-

Joe Rogan 9:05 It's really good for preventing injuries.

Maynard James Keenan 9:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:07 Like, when you're talking about your lower back situation.

Maynard James Keenan 9:10 Um-

Joe Rogan 9:10 I'll show you some stuff, some of the equipment we have out there afterwards.

Maynard James Keenan 9:13 Yeah. Oh, is it, um, like kettlebell stuff?

Joe Rogan 9:16 Kettlebell stuff's great.

Maynard James Keenan 9:17 Okay.

Joe Rogan 9:17 But for the lower back, there's a machine called the Reverse Hyper that we have out there-

Maynard James Keenan 9:21 Okay.

Joe Rogan 9:21 ... that's phenomenal, because it decompresses your back and then it also strengthens all the muscles around it.

Maynard James Keenan 9:27 All right.

Joe Rogan 9:27 It was invented by Louie Simmons, who's this, uh, genius. That's Louie right there.

Maynard James Keenan 9:32 Hello.

Joe Rogan 9:32 Rest in peace.

Maynard James Keenan 9:33 Hello, he-

Joe Rogan 9:34 He has left us and gone on to the next stage of existence. But that machine, he developed because, um... Louie was, like, a world-famous powerlifter, and his, um... His back got fucked, and they told him that he had to get his back fused because it was compressed. And so he figured out a way to decompress the spine with, uh, active decompression. So, that thing, as it swings down... And you'll... You'll feel it, I'll show it to you afterwards when we go into the gym. That- That thing decompresses your spine on the down swing, and then on the upswing, it actually strengthens the muscles around the back.

Maynard James Keenan 10:04 Okay.

Joe Rogan 10:05 Anybody that has the room for it and has, like, some issues with their lower back, even if you don't have issues, if you don't want to ever have issues, I can't recommend that machine enough. It's phenomenal for your back.

Maynard James Keenan 10:16 All right. I will... I will take that advice.

Joe Rogan 10:17 I just feel like it... When you get to our age, you must weight train. It just... I don't think it's an if, and, or but, I think it's... You have to do it, 'cause you... Otherwise, you lose muscle density, you lose bone density, you- you know. We're deteriorating, Maynard.

Maynard James Keenan 10:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:32 Deterio-... Father Time wants to fuck us over-

Maynard James Keenan 10:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:35 ... and grind us into dust.

Maynard James Keenan 10:36 Yeah. And, you know, that's... And, uh, I'm... This is me making excuses, but, you know, like, there's a lot going on, uh, with the winery. It's-

Joe Rogan 10:44 Oh, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 10:45 So ch- Uh, even just going to do jujitsu during harvest is, like, nearly impossible, 'cause you're doing 10-hour days. And so I just don't have the time. And you're in the sun, so by the time your day is done, you're like, "I need a beer and I need to go to sleep."

Joe Rogan 10:57 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 10:58 So-

Joe Rogan 10:58 Do you, um, take electrolytes?

Maynard James Keenan 11:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:01 What do you take?

Maynard James Keenan 11:02 Uh, I don't know. The... Henry Akins turned me onto this little packet of stuff that... Uh, it's pretty good. Uh, but-

Joe Rogan 11:08 Do you know the company that makes that?

Maynard James Keenan 11:09 No.

Joe Rogan 11:09 No?

Maynard James Keenan 11:09 I don't... I don't have i-

Joe Rogan 11:10 There's a bunch of good ones.

Maynard James Keenan 11:11 Yeah. Yeah, so that's-

Joe Rogan 11:12 I like the Liquid IVs much better.

Maynard James Keenan 11:12 That's like when I have... When we have, like, a couple extra interns that are starting with us in the cellar, 'cause it's-

Joe Rogan 11:17 Uh-huh.

Maynard James Keenan 11:17 ... Arizona, it's 100... You know?

Joe Rogan 11:18 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 11:19 It might be 90 degrees, but it's 110 on the concrete, just that... All that radiant, uh-

Joe Rogan 11:23 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 11:23 ... heat off the... Off the concrete, so I make everybody have electrolyte drink to even... Just before we even start. "Here, drink this. Now, we're gonna take... Every 15 minutes, stop, grab water, drink water," just 'cause it's a... You know, it's- it's not... It's not easy working in the sun like that.

Joe Rogan 11:40 I think you live a fascinating life, and I think that the combination of the things that you do is so unique. You know, the fact that you run this winery and you're very serious about it, and you make this amazing wine, and yet also, you're making this fucking killer music, and you're doing the two of them together.

Maynard James Keenan 11:58 I also... I also make great pasta.

Joe Rogan 12:01 Yeah, you do make great pasta.

Maynard James Keenan 12:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:02 You make great pizza too, man.... that pizza place.

Maynard James Keenan 12:05 Well, Steve makes the pizza, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:07 Well, your rest- your restaurant. Your osteria. That's how you say it, right?

Maynard James Keenan 12:12 Osteria, yes.

Joe Rogan 12:13 That place is awesome.

Maynard James Keenan 12:14 Yeah. It's good.

Joe Rogan 12:15 Scottsdale.

Maynard James Keenan 12:17 Yeah. Um, (sighs) so I'm on here to talk about stuff.

Joe Rogan 12:21 What do you really want to talk about?

Maynard James Keenan 12:22 'Cause I've been doing, I'm doing stuff, so-

Joe Rogan 12:24 What're you doing?

Maynard James Keenan 12:24 ... full disclosure, I'm here because I'm pimping stuff that I'm selling, so-

Joe Rogan 12:28 You're pimping?

Maynard James Keenan 12:28 Yeah, I'm pimping. Pimping my wares. Uh, so we did this-

Joe Rogan 12:32 You look like a pimp. Look at that jacket.

Maynard James Keenan 12:33 Hey, hey.

Joe Rogan 12:34 It's very pimply.

Maynard James Keenan 12:35 Hey. (laughs) Forget about it.

Joe Rogan 12:37 I love that jacket.

Maynard James Keenan 12:38 Uh, so, uh, we did ... When the, when the whole lockdown shit happened, um, and we were, we couldn't tour, um, it sucked because I just, I just released, uh, the TOOL album, and then on the heels of that, I released the Puscifer Existential Reckoning, and we couldn't tour Existential Reckoning. So, what we did, we figured out, "Okay, screw it, everybody's doing these, um, these, uh, streaming events, pay-per-views."

Joe Rogan 13:03 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 13:04 So, we did one-

Joe Rogan 13:05 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 13:05 ... for the, for the release of the album, and for Puscifer, it just made sense. That was the thing that, for what we do with our characters and some of our sense of humor and the nature of, you know, some of the kind of interesting, uh, heady, uh, landscapes that we kind of paint with some of the songs, it just, it's a really, um, interesting format for us and everybody in the band, uh, went, "This is a great, this is a good thing for us." So, we did another one. We did, um, Billy D & The Hall of Feathered Serpents, which was all of the Money Shot album and all the Luchador stuff, uh, that we shot at the Mayan Theatre. We released that one. So, we went ahead and did this, still during lockdown before we actually got back on the road, uh, we did, uh, Conditions of My Parole, the whole album called Parole Violator. So, it's a bunch of stuff that's got Billy D and Major Douche and a bunch of the characters, Hildy and everything, along with everything from Conditions by Parole, and we did, uh, a bunch of the V is for Vagina era songs, uh, reworked them completely, and shot that all in the Sunset Sound studio in Hollywood. There's come, there's come some bits in that one as well. But, uh, those are two pay-per-views that are coming out, um, this coming weekend, Halloween weekend, so that's-

Joe Rogan 14:18 And do you do these pay-per-views off your website?

Maynard James Keenan 14:21 Well, we're gonna, we're ... Yeah, the puscifertv.com is where they're gonna live for now as, as a temporary thing. Eventually we'll release them on Blu-ray and through iTunes and all that stuff.

Joe Rogan 14:30 Oh, it is right here?

Maynard James Keenan 14:31 There he is.

Joe Rogan 14:31 Double feature.

Maynard James Keenan 14:32 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:34 Nice.

Maynard James Keenan 14:36 Yeah, so it's, uh, it's just a, it's just such a fun ... When I figured out, when I figured out what it was and how we can do it, and how ... We were like duck to water with it. It was just, all of us are really good with, um, just the concepts, putting it all together. Matt Mitchell's an incredible, um, not only just a producer but for the record an engineer, but also his approach to figuring out how to put all these things together, uh, and our team, his, his girlfriend Alisa.

Joe Rogan 15:03 You're living a fun life, dude.

Maynard James Keenan 15:05 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:06 I like what you're doing. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 15:10 (Laughs) Yeah, so it's just, it's just, uh, it's ... I don't know, we just kind of went, and, uh, it's ... It resonates with us, th- this approach of doing this thing. Like, the idea of, like, doing a, like a series, Puscifer series, that doesn't really ... I think full concert with all the cool stuff in it just-

Joe Rogan 15:25 Have you bandied about doing a series? Have you thought about it?

Maynard James Keenan 15:28 Yeah, but I think, you know, uh, I'm friends with, uh, Mark Brooks, who used to be a part of Metalocalypse, and conversations I'd had with him and various other people that have been in the, involved in those things, they're like, "As soon as you go down that path with somebody like Adult Swim or Comedy Central and all those things, they just own that thing now."

Joe Rogan 15:45 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 15:45 So, imagine like me getting in the wrong contract and now all these characters that I've developed, I can't even take these on the road now because some other douchebag owns them.

Joe Rogan 15:53 Oh, you can't do that. No, no, no, no, no.

Maynard James Keenan 15:54 Yeah, we're not doing that, so ...

Joe Rogan 15:55 No, no, no, no, no.

Maynard James Keenan 15:56 It's just-

Joe Rogan 15:56 But what about doing it independently? What about doing a series, you know, doing it yourself?

Maynard James Keenan 16:01 Do it? Well, I think, I think my, my attention span, I think having, being it the full hour, uh, hour and change thing, that makes sense. Doing like the small episodes and having to, to build in all those stories for an entire season and have somebody expect following through with the next season, I don't think that I could, I don't think I could do that.

Joe Rogan 16:22 Do you ... You have to kind of manage ... You have so many interests, you kind of have to manage your time wisely, don't you?

Maynard James Keenan 16:27 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:28 Because the, the, the vineyard, the winery requires so much focus and so much attention.

Maynard James Keenan 16:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:34 As does the creation of the music.

Maynard James Keenan 16:36 Yeah, and I couldn't, I couldn't do w- with the winery, the success of the winery, I couldn't do it without people like, uh, you know, my wife and, and Tim White and Calvin and the various people that are involved, uh, Aaron Weiss, uh, in kind of handling their jobs, the delegation of what you guys do, um. I have to be there to make the decisions when it comes to the wine making. I'm on the forklift, I'm the one, I'm the one, you know, there, uh, deciding what's gonna go in what tank because every- everything ends up making, it changes the outcome of what's happening, and that's just the approaches of when we're picking the grapes, what grapes are we planting. All those things are ... come back to me, but the follow through, if I didn't have Jen and Tim and Calvin and Aaron and, uh, all my vineyard managers, uh, Chris and Jesse, if I didn't have those people in place, I couldn't do it at all. At all.

Joe Rogan 17:26 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 17:27 So it's about ... It's, uh, it's not just a matter of, matter of me organizing my time, it's also about me delegating to people that I can trust to make the decision beyond the initial framework that I've set in place.

Joe Rogan 17:41 Now, when you make wine and you grow these grapes, the, the grapes vary seasonally, they vary depend- does it, does the flavor vary dependent upon the weather conditions and what you do and don't do to the soil?... like, does that mature or change over time?

Maynard James Keenan 18:00 Yeah. And, you know, and generally speaking, you're trying to pick a location that the soil itself is going to express something in this way for a very, you know, forever. That, that's gonna be what that site does. You're not gonna-

Joe Rogan 18:12 And what are the, what's the variables when it comes to the soil?

Maynard James Keenan 18:16 Well, this is a word called terroir.

Joe Rogan 18:18 Terroir?

Maynard James Keenan 18:19 Yeah. And it's everything. Everything, every, every completely untrackable thing that you could think of in terms of the levels of moisture, when that moisture hits that soil, how f- how deep does that moisture go in, the content, the geology of the soil, um, the, you know, the weather patterns in that area and how they shift year to year. What grape, what actual clone did you plant in that spot and how that clone is gonna react differently to all of those infinite variables of just the soil, never mind the infinite variables of the weather. And then, when you choose to pick, how you choose to prune, how many clusters you decide to set on that particular vine, how you decide to train that vine. Is it gonna be a unilateral, is it gonna be bilateral, is it gonna be just a, a bush pruned? All these different variables about how you're gonna do that farming, that affects the outcome. In general, though, if there's a particular region that does well with a particular grape, like Oregon with Pinot noir, there might be various ways that they're pruning and, and adjusting the, how they're, how they're training and growing that fruit, but it's, generally speaking, it's gonna be Pinot from Oregon. It's gonna, it's gonna have a particular profile across that state. Variations from region to region, from site to site, from producer to producer, but in general, it should have a signature that suggests Oregon Pinot.

Joe Rogan 19:49 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 19:50 Allegedly.

Joe Rogan 19:50 Allegedly. Do, do you follow, like, other types of ... Do, do you follow, like, uh, cigar-growing or coffee-growing or all these other different things that vary so much on the soil and things along those lines?

Maynard James Keenan 20:06 Uh, coffee a little bit. Uh, we just picked up a ... well, it's not here yet, but it's-

Joe Rogan 20:09 Do you like, want some? Have some of this.

Maynard James Keenan 20:11 No, I'm good. I'm good.

Joe Rogan 20:12 Good. This is good stuff.

Maynard James Keenan 20:13 Uh, I had, I've had two today, so I'm gonna yammer a little bit.

Joe Rogan 20:17 I like yammering.

Maynard James Keenan 20:18 I yammer.

Joe Rogan 20:18 It's what we do.

Maynard James Keenan 20:19 Uh, I just picked up, um ... it's not here yet. Uh, we picked up a nice, uh, modern roaster, so ... 'cause once I move the osteria that's in Cottonwood up to the new Hill project, that building in Cottonwood will become, uh, a coffee, uh, roaster and breakfast, brunch place.

Joe Rogan 20:38 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 20:38 So, we're actually, we're actually pursuing relationships with, uh, beans, uh, and, and, you know, importers of, of coffee beans.

Joe Rogan 20:46 So, when you do that, like, uh, I'm good friends with Evan Hafner from Black Rifle Coffee.

Maynard James Keenan 20:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:50 And he'll travel all over the world-

Maynard James Keenan 20:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:53 ... and try out different beans and try out different things, and that's what this stuff is right here.

Maynard James Keenan 20:58 Yeah, that's-

Joe Rogan 20:58 I've gotten really into it for the last year.

Maynard James Keenan 20:59 Oh, this is, this is Black Rifle?

Joe Rogan 21:00 Yeah. Well, I've had some of this.

Maynard James Keenan 21:01 Well, then I gotta, yeah, I gotta-

Joe Rogan 21:02 That's what I'm talking about.

Maynard James Keenan 21:03 Sorry, brother. I didn't know it was yours, brother. I'm sorry.

Joe Rogan 21:06 Yeah. No, he's ... Cheers, sir.

Maynard James Keenan 21:08 Cheers.

Joe Rogan 21:08 Always good to see you. Yeah. Evan makes some fucking phenomenal stuff.

Maynard James Keenan 21:14 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:15 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 21:15 So, you know, so I have my, you know ... Todd Fox is basically my, my go-to guy. He, he actually has, he has that eye of the tiger on those kind of things.

Joe Rogan 21:26 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 21:27 And he'll point out things 'cause I'm just, dude, I'm, I'm living and I'm going, and he'll go, "Check out the difference between these Colombian beans and these Brazilian beans." And I'll go, "Okay." He'll be the one that kind of slows me down to focus on, "Check it out." He might, "You know what? Oh, you're right." Like, then he'll put stuff, you know, randomly we'll have some stuff, he goes, "What do you think of that one?" And I go, "I really like that one." He goes, "That was, those are the Brazilian beans."

Joe Rogan 21:51 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 21:51 So, so, he's starting to help me kind of identify what it is that I like in a coffee, in an approach, because I don't ... Like a band. I don't have to sound like Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin, I just have to sound like me and, and express the way I'm going to express, so I don't need to be able to make every kind of coffee from every part of the world. I just need to figure out the ones that, that I like because I'm kinda, in a way, I'm making it for me, but I'm also selling it, but I'm not selling it to everybody. I'm selling it to the people that are gonna like it and they're gonna come to my place because that's unique.

Joe Rogan 22:29 I had a guy on the podcast years back, Peter Giuliano, is that his name? He's a, like a legitimate coffee nerd, and he, we- we went down like a three-hour rabbit hole of coffee where he explained to me all the beans initially came from Ethiopia and how their flavors changed as they moved them to South America and grew them in Columbia.

Maynard James Keenan 22:48 Yeah. That's, that's an expression of terroir. It just, it changes-

Joe Rogan 22:51 Mm. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 22:52 ... clone, to weather, to soil, to grower, to roaster. I mean-

Joe Rogan 22:58 There's so many rabbit holes you can go down with that kind of stuff.

Maynard James Keenan 23:01 Yeah. Like, you, you know, your average large commercial facilities that have a consistent coffee that's not great, it's usually over-roasted-

Joe Rogan 23:10 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 23:10 ... or they overheat it when they-

Joe Rogan 23:12 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 23:12 ... when they do the coffee 'cause they, 'cause they're just trying to cover up flaws.

Joe Rogan 23:16 Right. Well, it's just like when people talk about coffee and they talk about commercial places, most of the people are buying stuff that's just, they're not really buying coffee. They're buying sugar water-

Maynard James Keenan 23:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:26 ... that's got caffeine in it. It's just ...

Maynard James Keenan 23:28 I was at, uh, I went to do, um, an article and a training session out at Gunsite in, uh, in, outside of Pr- in Paulden, Arizona. It's a, you know, old-school training facility. And I went there, you know, early morning, we're gonna do this whole gun range thing, and, uh, this guy named Charlie, sitting at the table. He goes, "You want some coffee?" I'm like, "Sure." He goes, "Cream and sugar?" I normally don't, but like it sounded like that's what he ... yeah. "Yeah, sure." He goes, "I asked if you wanted coffee, not pudding."

Joe Rogan 23:58 (laughs) So he's testing you. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 24:00 ... fucking clothes-lined me-

Joe Rogan 24:02 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 24:02 ... first, out of the box. "Fuck you." Um, but I fell for it.

Joe Rogan 24:07 Yeah. I only go black now. It's been, like, a couple years now I only drink black coffee.

Maynard James Keenan 24:12 I do, I do a little bit of cream, uh, and I think that... And I've, and I'm, I've been pretty consistent with that lately because, because I'm now, I'm focusing on what beans I like. And for me, I know it's gonna change once I, once I remove the cream. But that's the lens that I see the coffee through, is I have to have the cream in there because that's how I'm gonna drink it. So I'm trying to figure out what ones I like. And with that lens, I know that if I remove that, that lens, it's probably gonna change my perception of what coffees I like.

Joe Rogan 24:43 It's funny, the cream debate, whether or not you should put cream in coffee. It's, (laughs) it's an interesting thing because-

Maynard James Keenan 24:50 I think there's far bigger issues in the world to discuss. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:53 There definitely are. There definitely are. But it's just such a funny snob thing.

Maynard James Keenan 24:55 Leave my cream alone, man.

Joe Rogan 24:57 Listen, I like it. I like cream. I, I like cream in a Kona, a Kona coffee.

Maynard James Keenan 25:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:02 I like a little cream in there. But generally, I just drink it black now.

Maynard James Keenan 25:05 Yeah. I mean, I'm planning trips to Hawaii 'cause I wanna establish some relationships with some Maui growers.

Joe Rogan 25:12 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 25:12 So that I can actually part... make that be part of, um, what I'm doing in Arizona, but also because I get to go train with, uh, Luis at-

Joe Rogan 25:21 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:21 ... Maui Jiu-Jitsu.

Joe Rogan 25:22 Luis was my first instructor ever. He taught me my first private lesson.

Maynard James Keenan 25:26 Really?

Joe Rogan 25:26 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:27 Oh.

Joe Rogan 25:27 At Hickson's.

Maynard James Keenan 25:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 25:28 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:29 On Pico?

Joe Rogan 25:29 Yeah, in 1996.

Maynard James Keenan 25:32 Yep.

Joe Rogan 25:32 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 25:33 I must have just missed you.

Joe Rogan 25:34 Yeah. Well, I only went there a couple times, and then I found Carlson Gracies. And I was so dumb, I didn't know. I'm like, "Oh, this is a different place, but it's the same name. Must be the same thing." And I, I caught Carlson Gracies right when Vitor, when they were still calling him Victor.

Maynard James Keenan 25:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 25:49 And he had just competed, uh, against, uh, John Hess in Hawaii. That was his debut, he was, like, 19 years old, and then he was about to make his UFC debut.

Maynard James Keenan 26:00 Yeah. I remember, I remember sitting behind, um, Vitor, uh, one row behind him when, uh, when Silva broke his leg.

Joe Rogan 26:11 Oh, wow.

Maynard James Keenan 26:12 Yeah. That, uh...

Joe Rogan 26:13 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 26:13 But it's like... (laughs) But here's, here's Vitor's head, and I'm, like, having to-

Joe Rogan 26:17 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 26:18 ... figure out how to see around this fucking brick of a head. His head is huge.

Joe Rogan 26:24 Well, he, he-

Maynard James Keenan 26:25 So...

Joe Rogan 26:25 When he got up to, like, 240 pounds when he fought Randy Couture, it was preposterous.

Maynard James Keenan 26:30 No.

Joe Rogan 26:30 He wa- he was an enormous man.

Maynard James Keenan 26:32 Yes.

Joe Rogan 26:33 But that, those days, like, those early days of the UFC were so interesting 'cause, like, it's... There's nothing like MMA in that regard, or Jiu-Jitsu, where you can go back just 25 years, and you go and look at the difference between the art form then and what it is now. It's just evolved in leaps and bounds.

Maynard James Keenan 26:52 It's e- it's evolved, but there's also... Yeah. There's some... You know, we could, we could go on for hours about it. But when I first started at Pico, it was... You could tell that there was a... you know, there was a, there was a, a club within the club.

Joe Rogan 27:06 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 27:06 And I was never gonna have access to that information. And then-

Joe Rogan 27:11 Oh, back then, there was.

Maynard James Keenan 27:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:12 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 27:12 And-

Joe Rogan 27:12 Back then, it was really weird back then.

Maynard James Keenan 27:13 And you're not allowed to go to somebody else's gym, so-

Joe Rogan 27:16 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 27:16 I'm traveling, and it's like, I couldn't, I couldn't train with anybody.

Joe Rogan 27:20 Hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 27:20 I had to, like, I had to wait till I got back to LA to, to pick it up. Unless I brought somebody with me on the road to train some techniques, I had no idea what the hell we were doing, right?

Joe Rogan 27:30 Yeah. I was very fortunate that Jean-Jacques did not have that attitude. Jean-Jacques was just, "Go train, my friend. Train. Train every way you can."

Maynard James Keenan 27:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:38 And he was such a great guy, and he had such a loyal, uh, student base that he had zero concerns about people leaving him, you know?

Maynard James Keenan 27:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:46 His concern was just that you trained.

Maynard James Keenan 27:49 Right. Which I didn't.

Joe Rogan 27:49 Which was very fortunate.

Maynard James Keenan 27:50 I didn't, I didn't have that 'cause it was just such a weird, at that moment.

Joe Rogan 27:55 Well, it was a, a famine mentality in the early days.

Maynard James Keenan 27:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:58 There were... Well, there was also lawsuits going on because, like, uh, they were, like, the Gracies were suing other people for using the Gracie name.

Maynard James Keenan 28:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:07 You know? Like, uh, Rorian, didn't he sue Carlson? I think they-

Maynard James Keenan 28:13 I'm sure.

Joe Rogan 28:13 They sued s- he sued someone for using the term Gracie Jiu-Jitsu even though Carlson's last name was Gracie. I don't know if it was Carlson. I don't want to misrepresent it, but I know that there was some lawsuits involved because Gracie Jiu-Jitsu itself became, like, a different thing. They were calling that a different thing than just straight Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Maynard James Keenan 28:33 Right. And now, I think it's the opp... Like, I, you know, I'm not sure where it is now, but whatever. I give up.

Joe Rogan 28:39 Well, I mean, that's where it becomes fascinating where a guy like John Danaher kind of, like, leaps to the top of this thing with just this a-analytical perspective that's completely free of dogma.

Maynard James Keenan 28:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:51 All he cares about is what is the correct way to do things, what's the most effective.

Maynard James Keenan 28:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:56 In tried and true competition format, like, this is what we've learned.

Maynard James Keenan 29:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:02 Without any bullshit.

Maynard James Keenan 29:04 Yeah. And that, you know, that, that's been great for me to be on the road training with somebody like, like John, um, like my friends at Easton and Denver and, you know, all over the-

Joe Rogan 29:14 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 29:14 You know?

Joe Rogan 29:14 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 29:15 Dave and Dan, uh, Dan Camarillo. They all have a slightly different approach-

Joe Rogan 29:19 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 29:19 ... to the things. Some of the guys are gonna be a little more self-defense oriented, so they're gonna be, uh, looking to check your position to make sure you can't get hit in the face.

Joe Rogan 29:29 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 29:30 Uh, but if you... But I'm a grown-ass man, and so you go, "Okay, I am playing Jiu-Jitsu. I'm not worried about getting hit in the face. I'm going to train this position to understand how to move my body," 'cause that's what it is. It's about, it's about... At the end of the day, it is about me taking you offline and advancing. But really, it's about you and your self-discovery and your ability to s- for self-control. Me being able to control my body to do a thing. And if you don't, if you don't have that self-awareness of understanding that this isn't just you flopping around like a fish, accidentally kneeing some dude in the face while you're going for a move-You're not really progressing if you don't understand that it is about your self-control. So, okay, yeah, that's self, that's a self-defense approach to the jujitsu, but I'm also conscious enough to know, okay, I'm gonna do this. Fuck it, I'm gonna play around with X card and see what happens-

Joe Rogan 30:20 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 30:20 ... because I've never done it, and I want to see how that, what that is.

Joe Rogan 30:24 How much does that, how much does training in jujitsu help just your m- your mind, the way you approach life, and the way you think about things?

Maynard James Keenan 30:32 Well, it's, it's the, like I've mentioned before on your show, this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. This is not, does not come easy for me. I am the perfect example of a klutzy dude who this is not, this is not natural for me to do. Um, and because of that, because of that, it, well, forever, it was stressful. And so you're activating your mind in a stressful situation and, you know, you're still getting oxygen in, in your blood, and you're moving, and you're, and you're, and you're opening up things. But at some point, it became more like chess instead of this, "Oh my god, this guy's gonna tap me." Well, of course he's gonna tap you. (laughs) If you just get that in your head, like, "I'm going, I might lose today. I'm probably gonna lose today." Be comfortable in that moment of understanding how to, like, be conscious and aware in that moment so that you can recognize the moment before you get to the moment now, for next time.

Joe Rogan 31:30 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 31:31 That's, that w- that was, that was a weird shift for me, getting to a position of, like, "I'm in a compromised position, but I'm gonna get to a safe position within the compromised position, take a deep breath, and pay attention to what he does next so that next time I can be ahead of what he does next." Weird mental-

Joe Rogan 31:49 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 31:50 ... thing.

Joe Rogan 31:50 And then training enough that you could store all this data and have it accessible-

Maynard James Keenan 31:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 31:56 ... when these scenarios present themselves again.

Maynard James Keenan 31:58 Yeah, because again, it's about body control and understanding what your body's gonna do naturally now. The drilling, the drilling, the drilling. I cannot stress enough the drilling in a safe environment with somebody who's not trying to tear your head off, with a good training partner who's gonna give you the resistance you need-

Joe Rogan 32:15 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 32:15 ... to be able to rep, you know, uh, the repetition, and then replicate that movement. Yeah, we're talking about jujitsu, but we're not. We're talking about making pasta. We're talking about making wine. These are things-

Joe Rogan 32:28 Yes.

Maynard James Keenan 32:28 ... that apply to every area of your life. If you can find one that's more difficult for you than the other ones, you'll improve the things that come naturally to you by focusing on the thing that doesn't come naturally to you.

Joe Rogan 32:42 Yeah, it's the-

Maynard James Keenan 32:42 And-

Joe Rogan 32:42 ... great quote from Miyamoto Musashi, "Once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things."

Maynard James Keenan 32:48 Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.

Joe Rogan 32:51 Yeah. That's, uh, that's the beauty of martial arts, and, uh, that's the, that's the thing that's missed by people that don't practice it, that think of it as, like, some sort of brutal endeavor for, you know, macho brutes, assholes.

Maynard James Keenan 33:06 Yeah, I mean, they're, but, you know, we know those guys.

Joe Rogan 33:08 They exist.

Maynard James Keenan 33:09 You know, they exist.

Joe Rogan 33:09 But they need to exercise, too. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 33:12 Yeah. Yeah, they do. Uh, but, you know, it's, I think, um, that just that finding that thing that's actually challenging you physically, mentally, spiritually helps with other things that come along 'cause there's, you know, the world's weird right now. There's, there's things, (laughs) I don't know, I feel like that we're, we're helping train people to understand that the world goes through a lot of changes. There's gonna be a lot of stress. Nobody's gonna, uh, 90% of the people of the world are not gonna agree with you, and if you can get through that mentally and emotionally and spiritually to know that there's something on the other side.

Joe Rogan 33:53 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 33:53 I think things like jujitsu, things like growing food, uh, gr- resigning yourself to nature and having to navigate farming, those kind of things, they start to reset you in a way where, like, it's not this, not everything has to be an argument.

Joe Rogan 34:09 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 34:10 Sometimes it's you just having to navigate the fucking weather.

Joe Rogan 34:13 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 34:14 If you can get to that mindset, you get a lot more done, honestly, and you'll survive shit that m- some people won't because they're so focused on the petty, dumb shit that they're gonna miss the bigger picture.

Joe Rogan 34:25 I think a lot of the petty stuff is people also want you to agree with them. That's not really necessary. You know, so many people, they have a, uh, an opinion, and they feel like if they can't convince you that they're correct or they can't force their opinion on you, that somehow or another, it invalidates their own perspective.

Maynard James Keenan 34:44 Yeah. I find that, you know, going back, again, we can go right back to jujitsu.

Joe Rogan 34:48 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 34:49 We know guys that are like, "No, this is the only way to do this move."

Joe Rogan 34:51 Right, right, right. Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 34:53 "Well, I just watched this guy beat the shit out of everyone at ADCC, and he's not doing the things that you're telling me that you're supposed to only do."

Joe Rogan 35:05 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 35:06 You know? And then, like, "This is the only way that..." Well, you know, like, using Rickson example. Rickson says, "Only do this, this, this, and this. You never do these other things." It's like, "Have you not watched his Vale Tudo videos?" He did everything the opposite of what you just said.

Joe Rogan 35:21 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 35:22 He had his nose before his toes. He had, like, you know, all these things that, you know, like, you're not supposed to do, and it's like, he, you know, those things are not necessarily 100%. So you have to be open-minded. You have to, um, disagree with it being one way.

Joe Rogan 35:39 Yeah. I mean, it really is a art in that way.

Maynard James Keenan 35:41 And then be open to hearing the way that you didn't think it was.

Joe Rogan 35:45 Mm-hmm. And then there's all these variables like the, the size of your frame, you know, the way your body moves, whether or not you're flexible. There's so many variables that will present themselves in this sort of equation of, how do you express yourself on the, on the mat?

Maynard James Keenan 35:59 Mm-hmm. Now that, you know, the one thing that I was talking to Donald, the guy you just met today. Uh, you know, you're, well, you're trying to convince a couple of friends, like, to take a class, you know, they're not very athletic, but their, you know, musician friends. Like, "Yeah, just come in and take the white belt class. You're in a safe environment." And-... under- uh, geting everybody to understand, like, when you walk in the room and you see a dude shaped like you, that might not be the- the biggest sniper in the room. It might be that geeky kid in the corner who looks like he probably works in a library.

Joe Rogan 36:32 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 36:32 And-

Joe Rogan 36:32 Oftentimes it is.

Maynard James Keenan 36:33 And he's the one who's going to fuck you up. He looks like he's like, you know, the nerd in the corner with the glasses and the goofy hair.

Joe Rogan 36:40 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 36:40 He's the guy who's going to fuck you up.

Joe Rogan 36:42 The nerd assassins.

Maynard James Keenan 36:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:43 Well, because they're analytical. You know, and jujitsu, uh, favors the analytical approach. You- you analyze positions and analyze possible counters and- and traps that you could set. That's why I love guys like Mikey Musumeci 'cause he's... You know who he is?

Maynard James Keenan 36:59 Mm-mm, nope.

Joe Rogan 37:00 Uh, he is a- a fascinating fellow who, uh, I had him on the podcast, he's like the smiliest assassin, thick glasses, only eats pizza and pasta, and he only eats once a day.

Maynard James Keenan 37:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:13 Trains, no bullshit, 12 hours a day. He's constantly drilling and going over positions, big-ass smile on his face, and he's multiple time world champion.

Maynard James Keenan 37:22 Okay.

Joe Rogan 37:23 And he's just fucking assassinating people.

Maynard James Keenan 37:24 We have a- we have a guy- a new guy at our gym, a brown belt out of Easton, and he- and he has- he's kind of a geeky dude, tall with glasses, name's Clay Wimmer.

Joe Rogan 37:33 He's from Emal's gym in Colorado?

Maynard James Keenan 37:35 Yeah. Yeah, he's out- out of, uh, Centennial. I think he got his, uh, brown belt, uh, from Valor. Uh, and he (laughs) , when he's- when he's rolling, he's got this creepy grin on his face, like-

Joe Rogan 37:48 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 37:48 ... "What are you- You're creeping me out, dude. Stop grinning." And he's like- he's one of those backpack fuckers, he gets right on your back and you're like- you're screwed, and he got there. You don't know how he got there, but he got there, and he's grinning the whole time, like sometimes chewing gum. We're like, "Are you- You're chewing- you're chewing gum and you're grinning. You're creeping me out, man."

Joe Rogan 38:07 That's Mikey.

Maynard James Keenan 38:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:08 Pu- pull up Mikey Musumeci, uh, takes Imanari's back. There's a video of him. Watch this. Wa- this is- he already took the back. Watch how he, uh, he takes it back. Go- go back a little bit of ways and you see the position. So they're in this scramble and, uh, Imanari, who's like the master leg locker, watch how Mikey takes his back. This is so fucking beautiful. He takes him out. This is Mikey on top here, and this is, again, this is against Imanari. Look at this back take. Look at that.

Maynard James Keenan 38:35 Oh, he got that- that, uh, neck grab.

Joe Rogan 38:38 Do you see how sweet that was?

Maynard James Keenan 38:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:39 Look how sw- b- back up a little bit. Look how sweet that was. So he's in there... Look at that, man. Fucking so slick.

Maynard James Keenan 38:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:48 And that's... And again, that's him doing it to Imanari, who's just a fucking legend. And he traps the arm. I mean, just incredible stuff. Super, super high level. That- that's Mikey. And I think he's 24.

Maynard James Keenan 39:02 You got it.

Joe Rogan 39:05 Yeah, look at him.

Maynard James Keenan 39:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:07 That's Mikey (laughs) . I love that guy. He's amazing. And it's to me that- he's my- my favorite example when I show people. $15,000 bonus for that incredible perform- Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 39:23 Wow.

Joe Rogan 39:24 He's just such a sweet guy, too, and, uh, so talented. That- that's what I love about jujitsu, that- that- that's like- that's a world champion, you know?

Maynard James Keenan 39:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:34 That it's just- it's- it's an art form. I mean, he might as well be playing the violin, you know? He might as well be, you know, w- making paintings or something.

Maynard James Keenan 39:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:42 It's like th- that's what he's doing.

Maynard James Keenan 39:44 Yeah, it's a beautiful... It's... Yeah. And like I said, it's hardest- one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life.

Joe Rogan 39:49 It's fucking hard as shit.

Maynard James Keenan 39:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:51 Yeah. Yeah, when I- that's- I- there's a bond that you have. Like, uh, I hung out with, uh, Guy Ritchie this past week in London and, uh, we had that s- the same sort of conversation. Like he did my podcast a few years back and he said, "I wanted to do your podcast 'cause I knew you were a jujitsu guy." He's like, "I knew we would have, like, very common perspectives on things." Like there's a thing, if you've done it and you've gotten to- Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 40:13 ... like, he's a black belt under Renzo. G- guy's r- he's really legit. You know, and you would never know 'cause he's like super unassuming guy, but then you start talking to him about details and stuff, like, "Oh, you're fucking legit. He's for real." I love those guys.

Joe Rogan 40:27 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 40:28 Th- those- You- you know, the guys that... Doesn't really happen anymore, but like the kind of guy that you wish you were at the end of the bar in some scenario where two dudes or one guy is just fucking with the nerd at the bar-

Joe Rogan 40:39 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 40:39 ... and you want to go before cameras, before you know, before these, so you could actually get away- he could actually get away with it. You know, like-

Joe Rogan 40:46 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 40:46 ... you know, in a bar, and I'd s- like just go, "Oh, this is gonna be great."

Joe Rogan 40:50 Did you see the video of, uh, Renzo Gracie taking some guy down on the subway?

Maynard James Keenan 40:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:55 Some asshole-

Maynard James Keenan 40:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:55 ... just got really shitty and you're just like, "My friend," (laughs) , "You've made a big mistake." Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 41:04 Yeah, don't do that anymore.

Joe Rogan 41:06 It's a- it's a way of life, though. It really is. It's a- it's a way of, like, making this thing so difficult that the rest of life seems, maybe not less complicated, but more understandable.

Maynard James Keenan 41:20 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Joe Rogan 41:23 You know what I'm saying?

Maynard James Keenan 41:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:25 Through that struggle of that thing, you can kind of like apply those lessons to other stuff.

Maynard James Keenan 41:32 Yeah. Yeah, I- I agree. I think it's- I- you know, I've- Over the years, I've applied it to, of course, writing and- and putting music together.

Joe Rogan 41:41 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 41:41 And that's definitely that- that struggle of like you hit a- you hit a wall and you have to navigate, you know, through, around, or over to figure it out.

Joe Rogan 41:52 When you write, do you write, um, uh, on your own? Do you write with other people? Like how do you create music? Do you create music alone?

Maynard James Keenan 42:01 Yes. It's- it's like- f- for me, it's- it's, "Okay, I'm gonna train- I'm gonna train jujitsu," okay, we're gonna bring it back to that 'cause that's- that's our- that's our- that's our- uh, our- our base here. Uh, if I'm- you know, if I'm gonna train with somebody, every diff- every body type is gonna be a different thing, and I can't just... You know how it is. If you- if you're just going to force your will on some other dude-... then it's just two idiots f- trying to force their will on each other, and you're gonna gas out. You have to see what this thing is and this person, how they're approaching you. Are they approaching you standing? Are they s- butt-scooting? Are they gonna, you know ... Are they gonna, you know ... Whatever they're gonna do, each song and every riff or whatever is a reaction to what I'm seeing or hearing, right? So I'm not just gonna come in with a lyric and come up with a line on top of some kind of rhythm or melody. I have to pay attention to what's in front of me and a ... and work around that thing. And listen to it and pay attention to it and drill for-

Joe Rogan 43:05 So how does this process start? Like, say you have-

Maynard James Keenan 43:08 Might be a rhythm.

Joe Rogan 43:08 ... a blank slate.

Maynard James Keenan 43:09 Blank slate. So for me, there's not really a blank slate. It's me going to ... Maybe it's me going to, um, Matt and going, "Okay, just in general, uh, I'd like to see what we can do with ... There's some sounds that I heard on this ... You know, maybe it was a movie soundtrack, maybe it was a, a record." You know, maybe I'm picking out, like, mandolin or, you know, some kind of a particular pedal from a guitar or a film that has, like, a Ry Cooder riff going through it or something, a vibe. And maybe Matt has picked up ... In the case of Existential Reckoning, he picked up a bunch of amazing old synths, like Faairlight and, uh, Synclavier and all this kinda cool shit that, that's ... In a way, it's-

Joe Rogan 43:53 What are you saying, synths?

Maynard James Keenan 43:54 Synthesizers.

Joe Rogan 43:55 Synthesizers.

Maynard James Keenan 43:55 Yeah, so old-school, like, you know, Kraftwerk, you know, um, Yes, uh, old, like, you know-

Joe Rogan 44:00 Oh, okay.

Maynard James Keenan 44:00 ... Michael j- Michael Jackson's-

Joe Rogan 44:01 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 44:02 ... like bom, bom, bom, bom. Like that familiar sound, but it's from a s- very specific thing. And you can manipulate those sounds to a point, but they are kind ... You're kinda boxed in on the ... what those things can do in some cases. Like the Faairlight's very ... It's gonna give you a very specific sound. Well, in there ... Now, there's the framework, and he'll come up with a melody or a thing, and he'll throw it to me, and I'll just drill, drill, drill that thing into my head, driving around with it in my car, truck, you know, putting headphones on on the plane, and just listen ... In the cellar, I'll put it on while I'm working on stuff, just to h- just to put that thing on loop and drill it into my head of what it is so that I can figure out how to go through, around, or over this thing-

Joe Rogan 44:54 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 44:54 Work with it, work against it intentionally. So it's, it's a, it's a mathematical, three-dimensional, geometric puzzle. It's true.

Joe Rogan 45:03 So when you're listening to it and you're just, like, going over it in your head, you're just, like, allowing it to talk to you?

Maynard James Keenan 45:09 Correct. Correct. You know-

Joe Rogan 45:11 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 45:11 ... just like we were going over today with Danaher, like ...

Joe Rogan 45:13 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 45:13 "Okay, we're in this position, but did the guy retract his elbow or did he leave his elbow forward?"

Joe Rogan 45:18 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 45:18 Is the riff giving me an elbow? Is there ... Or is the-

Joe Rogan 45:22 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 45:22 Is the riff cutting me off on a particular rhythm or a melody? 'Cause, you know, you might have a melody in mind, but you get closer to the end of that riff and it might have changed directions, then your note is sour. So you have to pay attention to what note goes with that thing, and rhythmically as well as sonically, like, you know, melodically.

Joe Rogan 45:41 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 45:42 So it's a ... It's you getting used to this thing, 'cause ... And he might be able to move it. I might go back, "Hey man, can we, can we adjust a few things in here and move forward?" So it is definitely a step-by-step piece. I will respond. Then he will give me back a thing that he's developed further, and I will respond to his response. And then at some point, I'll go to Karina and go, "Hey, I'd like to hear ... Before I go too far, I wanna hear what you would do over what I've done, over what he's done." And now, it's a tryout of, of us, uh, navigating, uh, that sonic landscape.

Joe Rogan 46:22 So it, it, it must be an interesting dance in that you have to do it with people that have sort of the same engagement that you do, the same level of discipline, the same-

Maynard James Keenan 46:32 Same level of discipline, but strengths where I don't have strengths, I have strengths where they don't have strengths. So you're ... It's, it's ... You're kind of, you're kind of filling in each other's gaps with a common goal.

Joe Rogan 46:45 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 46:46 So yeah, so we have ... We had d- We definitely have common things that we like, but we also bring different strengths to the table to make it work as a whole.

Joe Rogan 46:54 That's one of the more challenging things, I would imagine, about a band, is that you kinda have to get everybody on the same, p- sort of-

Maynard James Keenan 47:04 You have to remain ope- Your, your listening skills are ... Should be as important and as honed as your regurgitating skills. "I'm successful and this is what I do. Fuck you." No. Then it just sounds ... Starts sounding the same.

Joe Rogan 47:20 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 47:21 You're n- You're not really ... You're not progressing as an artist till I kinda reinvent yourself and see things from a different perspective.

Joe Rogan 47:28 Do you s-

Maynard James Keenan 47:28 My opinion.

Joe Rogan 47:30 Do you see this, like, uh, d- this process Does it ... Do you see this process clear, more clearly now than you did years ago? Like, is this something that you get better at?

Maynard James Keenan 47:41 Oh, yeah, like anything. It just it's ... You, you, you get better. I think you just get better at listening the more you listen. And I've ... You know, it's like, it's like anything. There's a, there's a, an action/reaction, and then there's ... there's some kind of reinforcement of that behavior, right? I found that when I started listening more and reacting more as a listener, the, the reinforcement of that behavior was that there was a better thing that came out the other end, rather than just sounding like something I'd already done before jammed over something that somebody else has already done before. So you reinvent.

Joe Rogan 48:20 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 48:21 And then the behavior is reinforced because th- thing ... Not, not from somebody externally, but, like, from the thing that you're hearing, you go, "I've never heard me do that before. Great."... keep honing that knife.

Joe Rogan 48:37 How long can you do that for?

Maynard James Keenan 48:39 Ever.

Joe Rogan 48:40 Forever?

Maynard James Keenan 48:41 Yeah. Just listen forever. Because you're- you're gonna be hearing it at a different age. You're gonna be hearing it differently than you would 10 years ago, or 20 years ago.

Joe Rogan 48:50 Right. And for you-

Maynard James Keenan 48:51 Because you have different life experiences, so...

Joe Rogan 48:53 As long as it's engaging and as long as it's fascinating, you keep doing it.

Maynard James Keenan 48:55 Right. I will definitely, you know, probably already, I, you know, I'm in- have my head up my own ass, but, you know, I- I won't be relevant to the TikTokers of the world because they're- it's just not- it's not on their radar. It's not those people that listen to the things they listen to and the things that respond- the people that respond or the things they respond to now, I'm not necessarily relevant. But there's an entire generation of people that's not just my generation. There's people older than me and much younger than me that have grown with this thing and so as they're aging, they're- they're res- they're discovering it.

Joe Rogan 49:38 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 49:38 Right?

Joe Rogan 49:39 Can you think- do you think about that though? Do you think about, like, whether or not you're relevant or whether or not...

Maynard James Keenan 49:44 You can't because you'll start being desperate and getting plastic surgery-

Joe Rogan 49:48 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 49:48 ... and looking like a fucking alien and trying to-

Joe Rogan 49:50 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 49:50 ... insert yourself into some stupid fucking thing. I'm not talking about anybody.

Joe Rogan 49:55 Yeah. No, you can't.

Maynard James Keenan 49:56 I'm not talking about my peers. Fuck, man.

Joe Rogan 49:59 No. 'Cause if you're alive, you have to assume other people are gonna... y- if you're on a vibe, there's other people that are gonna be on that vibe. There's so many people.

Maynard James Keenan 50:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:07 You can't, yeah, the- the- the quest for relevancy is like, oh boy.

Maynard James Keenan 50:11 It- it- it- it- it turns to desperation very quickly.

Joe Rogan 50:15 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 50:15 It reeks. So just maintain your art, dude. Like, just, and then, I don't know, we're just having- we're having fun creating.

Joe Rogan 50:23 Well, you guys are also so diverse. Like, your sounds are so diverse and I think that's one of the- the strengths of you is that with Tool and Puscifer and like, you know, Perfect Circle, you've done so- so much different stuff. It's like-

Maynard James Keenan 50:37 That's the listening part.

Joe Rogan 50:38 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 50:38 What does Billy do? What does- what do Adam, Justin and Danny do? What does Matt and Karina do? I'm listening to what they're doing and having that conversation with them and building on those relationships.

Joe Rogan 50:51 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 50:51 They're different conversations, they're different people with different life experiences. The art and the sounds that come out of those people is gonna be 100% different. Even if I'm the common thing, if you- if- if nobody knew that I was in Puscifer and you were just listening to it, you might pick up that I- that kind of sounds like the guy from Perfect Circle, but m- probably not. Like, it would be a whole different experience if you didn't-

Joe Rogan 51:16 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 51:16 ... know that I was involved.

Joe Rogan 51:18 Yeah, for sure. That's why I think these kind of conversations are so interesting to other artists 'cause they get to, like, see this sort of, like, you know, you've- you've been around long enough that you're- you're- you have a foundation, you know, you're solid in your approach and there's a lot of people out there that are like, "Am I doing it right? I mean, what am I doing? I don't know if my... is this the right way to do it? Is it... should I change it? Should I... what- what should I do?" And then-

Maynard James Keenan 51:43 I have that, you know, I'm, you know, I'm fairly confident in some things, but I try to, like, change it up as much as I can. I guess, you know, that's, you know, gonna start roasting coffee soon, so maybe that's one of those, like, resets of, like, "I don't know what I'm doing."

Joe Rogan 51:59 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 51:59 "Let's relearn this thing that I don't have any idea and it might suck."

Joe Rogan 52:03 Those are valuable, right? Those new things?

Maynard James Keenan 52:05 I- I think- I think so. I think just that, you know, it could be written off to, like, mid-life crisis, but I think it's also, um, just understanding that chaos and change is part of life and if you can kind of get yourself to recognize that things aren't- you're not gonna just get to a spot and it's gonna be that for the rest of your life. It's always gonna be something changing.

Joe Rogan 52:33 I think it also speaks to the- the- the con- the complex aspect of thinking itself because, like, you know, what is- what are thoughts and creativity and how do you keep them inspired and engaged and I think one of the ways to do it is to become a beginner again.

Maynard James Keenan 52:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:51 And to just try some-

Maynard James Keenan 52:53 That's why I- I started getting back into jujitsu. Uh, it took me forever to get back in, uh, 'cause I was living in a remote area, but then when I got into it, I was progressing and then I felt like, "Okay, the- I need to, you know, I need to ruin my day." So I took up Muay Thai, which is like way, like, I'm- uh, I'm- I'm not great at jujitsu. Holy shit, I really suck at Muay Thai.

Joe Rogan 53:18 Well, you also did it after a hip replacement, which is pretty wild.

Maynard James Keenan 53:22 Yeah, well...

Joe Rogan 53:24 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 53:24 I'm not smart.

Joe Rogan 53:25 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 53:25 This is so... let's just acknowledge that.

Joe Rogan 53:27 But you are because it's like, why not? If fucking... they fixed it.

Maynard James Keenan 53:31 Yeah, but that-

Joe Rogan 53:31 That works.

Maynard James Keenan 53:32 ... that kind of a reset where you're- you're-

Joe Rogan 53:33 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 53:33 ... you're jolting your- your brain into a understanding a whole different thing you don't- you're not familiar with, the reset is huge, I think.

Joe Rogan 53:42 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 53:44 And, you know, now it... but, you know, I'm- I'm a fairly successful musician, I have a backup plan, I have these things, I think on some level I can do that. Not a lot of people can think in terms of, like, their entire career of a reset of their entire career 'cause there might not be something for you. You might not be able to do that.

Joe Rogan 54:03 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 54:04 I can- I can kind of get away with that for now.

Joe Rogan 54:08 Well, it's also harder if you're boxed into it, like, if you're a pop star, you know, you're boxed into-

Maynard James Keenan 54:13 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:14 ... you know, you have like a very specific genre that you're successful in. Very hard for those people to branch out.

Maynard James Keenan 54:21 Yeah. You- you know, 'cause I'm sure you've met people that are fucking huge in their- in their- their genres, that are just pop star huge and I don't- I don't know, I haven't met a lot of those people. I have no idea if there's- if there's a core.... person to have a conversation with. I have no idea, because I haven't, I'm not, I don't tr-

Joe Rogan 54:44 There is with some of them.

Maynard James Keenan 54:45 I don't travel in those circles.

Joe Rogan 54:46 Like with Miley Cyrus there is. She's fascinating. That's a, she's a unique little artist.

Maynard James Keenan 54:52 I haven't met her.

Joe Rogan 54:53 She's wild. She's very interesting. She's a real artist.

Maynard James Keenan 54:56 I ta-

Joe Rogan 54:56 You know, but she's also a pop star.

Maynard James Keenan 54:57 I make, I make fun of her in our new show.

Joe Rogan 54:59 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 55:00 Not bad. It's like, I think she would f- find the joke very funny.

Joe Rogan 55:02 I'm sure she would. She's got a good sense of humor.

Maynard James Keenan 55:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:04 She's fun. But you know, she's a, a pop star, but she's also like, she experiments with shit.

Maynard James Keenan 55:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:10 And she's, you know, she's trying to find whatever it is that, in, that's engaging to her.

Maynard James Keenan 55:16 Right. Yeah. And I, and I, I have friends that are mutual friends with her, and I think that's, that's what I'm hearing.

Joe Rogan 55:27 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 55:27 Is that she's, she's digging.

Joe Rogan 55:30 Well, I became interested in her when she did, she covered Jolene. You know? I heard that song, like, "Jesus. Like there's a soul to that girl's voice, that-

Maynard James Keenan 55:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:39 ... belies her age and, you know, and what you would expect from her."

Maynard James Keenan 55:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:44 You know? To cover that Dolly Parton song and do it in this like very unique way with a b- with like a beautiful fucking sound to it.

Maynard James Keenan 55:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:53 You know?

Maynard James Keenan 55:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:55 But again, trapped in that machine.

Maynard James Keenan 55:58 Yeah. For sure. And that was, that, you know, she literally had to start swearing every other word to break out of at least part of that.

Joe Rogan 56:06 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 56:06 You're so trapped into, you know, a Hannah Montana-

Joe Rogan 56:10 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 56:10 ... thing, that in order to get out of that, you had to start, you know, almost like go full Mike Patton and start smearing shit on everything.

Joe Rogan 56:17 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 56:17 Just to fucking erase it, you know? To start over.

Joe Rogan 56:21 Well that just, that happens to a lot of those people. They just get stuck in this thing that's like uber successful, and ...

Maynard James Keenan 56:28 Yeah. But you know, it seems like she's, she's figured out a way to wiggle ...

Joe Rogan 56:32 She has.

Maynard James Keenan 56:33 And broaden out of it.

Joe Rogan 56:35 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 56:35 Wiggle out of it.

Joe Rogan 56:36 But man, what a fucking, what a salmon trip up the fucking waterfall, that is.

Maynard James Keenan 56:42 Yeah, because there's so many people with their hands out.

Joe Rogan 56:44 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 56:44 So many people don't, that have a piece of that. So many people that don't want you to, to, to branch out because, you know, anything you do that's not that they think could ruin the gravy train that they're, that they're enjoying. Right? So, you can see how that might be. And, the egos involved, like the, of the popularity and the, and the attention, and the money. The people that you get to hang out with.

Joe Rogan 57:12 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 57:13 I'm just not, I'm not in that circle. So I don't know, I don't know ... I'm not wired for it. I'm not, I'm not, that's not part of my world. I'm not, I'm not judging it at all. But I, I've, that's not part of my world. I don't know how I would react if all of the sudden, you know, if I can name five huge pop celebrities of actors and musicians. If they go, "Hey, we wanna come to your show." Like, "What did I, what did I do?"

Joe Rogan 57:41 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 57:41 "What did I, what did I, what ... How does that ... What does what I'm doing have, make, of any interest to you?"

Joe Rogan 57:49 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 57:49 Like I don't know what that would look like. Or what you, what are you seeing? It's somebody, what? (laughs) I would be very suspicious of those people coming and actually reacting to what we're doing.

Joe Rogan 58:01 But is that because you box them yourself? Like you decide that like what they've created is all they are?

Maynard James Keenan 58:08 No. No. I'd, I just would want- be wondering what ... Yeah, maybe. I guess maybe I'm being judgemental. Uh ...

Joe Rogan 58:14 It's easy to do, right?

Maynard James Keenan 58:16 Yeah. But-

Joe Rogan 58:16 Especially, it's fun to do.

Maynard James Keenan 58:18 But like-

Joe Rogan 58:18 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 58:18 ... because I know that I'm busy, and those people are busy.

Joe Rogan 58:22 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 58:22 So why would they stop what they're doing to come and do, to c- to pay attention to this thing? They already have all this shit going on. Like why would they come to the thing? And I'm talking about numbers. Not just one person.

Joe Rogan 58:33 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 58:33 Like five or six people all at once decided to come, you know like, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow and fucking Brad Pitt, and somebody, somebody, somebody wants to come to your show. I'd be like, "Are they, were they promised something?"

Joe Rogan 58:45 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 58:45 "Is there something I don't know? Like why would you come here?"

Joe Rogan 58:48 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 58:49 "What, what, what interest would you have in this thing? Like that doesn't, this sh- how is this even on your radar?" You know, and that would be, I would be very suspicious of that.

Joe Rogan 58:57 That's funny that you'd be suspicious.

Maynard James Keenan 58:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:59 Do you watch Black Mirror?

Maynard James Keenan 59:02 Uh, I started to, uh, back when it first, first, first came out. And there's, some of those episodes are pretty fucking amazing.

Joe Rogan 59:09 Amazing.

Maynard James Keenan 59:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:10 Well there's a really wild one with Miley Cyrus.

Maynard James Keenan 59:13 Okay.

Joe Rogan 59:13 And in this one, she has like this evil aunt who's like controlling her career. And uh, they download ... spoiler alert. They download, download her mind into this little doll, like this like robot doll that you can buy. And it's like, your little Miley Cyrus friend. But it actually is her inside this thing. And it's-

Maynard James Keenan 59:38 So multiple versions of her.

Joe Rogan 59:40 Yeah. But it's like, it's, I, I don't wanna fuck this up. Because people should watch it, it's a fun episode. But it's her trying to escape her pop lifestyle. But she's being controlled by all these people that have, you know, a vested interest in her making extraordinary amounts of money with that.

Maynard James Keenan 59:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:57 That, that gen- And then she gets out of it eventually.

Maynard James Keenan 59:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 But it's pretty wild. But it's that thing. It's like speaks to that struggle.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:03 I will definitely watch that one. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:04 Yeah. It's like, you know, you assume that Justin Bieber's just that fucking guy that sings like a girl. You know like he s- sound like ... First j- heard Justin Bieber, like what a beautiful voice that girl has. And then I'm like, that's a guy. I'm like, "Oh. What? Oh, he's young. Oh, okay." And then you know, he matures over time.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:22 And he becomes this different thing. It's like, but it's still a human.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:25 You know? Like if he wanted to go see a Pussifer show, I could imagine you'd be like, (inhales deeply) "What?"

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:31 He would be welcome.

Joe Rogan 1:00:32 Sure. Sure.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:33 Yeah. I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't ever say those people can't come to my ... You know, I would be happy to entertain. I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm an asshole but not that kind of an asshole.

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 You're not a snob.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:43 I'm not a snob, no. Yep, yep, 100% welcome to come to those things. But, uh-... yeah, I wouldn't exclude anybody from that. Art, it's art.

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:00:52 You know? There might, something might resonate with them that would end up showing up in something that they did next, right? Um, we all, artists all feed off each other in some way. There's like, I'm inspired by a bunch of different films, TV shows, bands.

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 Mm. For sure.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:12 You know, visual artists. You know, those things inspire me and they get me thinking on, you know, the next thing that I'm gonna do, and how do I build on that and make it make sense?

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 Well, music is inspirational in such a weird way too. It's like a drug, you know? Like Prison Sex, that song, there's something about that song that makes me wanna lift. Like when I'm lifting weights, that song is just like, the guitar riff, it's just fucking wahhh. It just like gives you extra juice.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:39 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:01:39 You know? There's something about music that it provides like, it opens up (snaps fingers) a specific pathway in you that it, it, it's like a drug. It really is. It's an amazing drug of inspiration.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:52 And it's, and it can be a, it's a neural map-

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:01:58 ... in a way that opens up that ins- whatever that is you're getting, there's a rhythm and a tone to that thing that's inspiring those myelin connections in you to do the, do a thing. I c- I could see that.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:12 Yeah. And also it speaks to, especially like older music is like a time map. It's like a map of the culture when that song was created, who this person is, how they fit into the culture, whether or not they're around anymore.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 Like, whenever I listen to Hendrix in particular, it's like Hendrix to me is like a map of the '60s in a lot of ways.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:34 It's like the rebellion from the Vietnam era.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:37 It's a, it's a, it's a wine. It's-

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 Mm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:39 It's something that happened on that day, at that time, on that site, in that place, made that certain way, that's a time capsule of that, of that moment.

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 Yeah. Yeah. It really is. And unique in that way, that you could kinda listen to it uh- and it transports you, it takes you there. Like Janis Joplin does that for me too.

Maynard James Keenan 1:02:59 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 It brings me to that time. You know, it just, just like you try to imagine the context of how, when it was created, who she was.

Maynard James Keenan 1:03:08 Right. So going back to your original question of how we write, you have to be true... To me, for the way that I write, is I'm trying to be true to who I am today, because those are waypoints, like you, as you pointed out, those are waypoints along your particular history and your experiences. So, if I can be in the present moment when I'm writing those things about what's happening, how I'm feeling about things, even though some of the experiences are life- lifelong experiences, how I perceive those experiences today and how I can attach those to a, a bed of rhythms and sounds and melodies will end up hopefully being what you're talking about. It's a waypoint for that moment in time that now you can go back and revisit.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 Yeah. That's, it's such a unique art form in that way, that it just, it just encapsulates so many different things, lyrics and sounds and feelings and, and just, you can just turn it on anytime you want. I mean, what a weird time too, 'cause like you can just talk to your phone and tell your phone, "Hey, play me this."

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:18 (laughs) Yeah. Oof.

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:20 That's so strange.

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 It is wild. The access, the access to that art is so instantaneous now. Just so bizarre. You just-

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:30 But like any, but like anything, it's a, it's, it's a hammer. Right? You can use that hammer to build something, you can use that hammer to destroy something. This is, this is such an awful thing and such an amazing thing-

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:43 ... depending on how you're, how you're dealing with it.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:47 Like, you can use it to gain more control, more money, or you can use it, you know, to share things with people.

Joe Rogan 1:04:54 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 1:04:55 And, and help them find a way.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 And also like having a level of discipline is so important when engaging with that thing 'cause I think, and you know, we were talking about TikTok earlier today-

Maynard James Keenan 1:05:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:07 ... about how the, the parent company of TikTok is using TikTok to s- specifically monitor the locations of American individuals and how fucking crazy that is, that-

Maynard James Keenan 1:05:19 I, I deleted it.

Joe Rogan 1:05:20 Yeah, I never had it.

Maynard James Keenan 1:05:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:22 I wouldn't... I- I, right away I was like, "What?" And then when they were talking about banning it and I started looking into it, I was like, "That thing's... that's a problem." And then we read on one day, uh, d- during the podcast, we read the terms of service and what it's allowed to do if you, in which nobody reads. And uh-

Maynard James Keenan 1:05:40 Agree.

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:05:41 Agree.

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 Agree. Everyone agrees. But it's so fucked up that when I read it, I couldn't believe that it was real. We had to, I had to go over it from multiple different sites. And then like, I wanna know that this is, am I being accurate with this? Is, does it really have access to your computers that aren't connected to TikTok? If you have the same, like if you use the same email account, you have the same computer and network, yes. Yes, it does. It has access to everything you do, which is fucking bananas. So I read that over and one of my kids came home and she said that her friend was mad because her mom listened to me-

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 ... talk about the terms of service and made him-

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 ... delete TikTok from his phone.

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:21 Yeah. Yeah. It's new world. It's a whole new world.

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 But on the other side-

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:27 ... there's so much, there's so much interesting stuff that you can get off of it. I'm, I'm so much more educated about so many different subjects because of it, because of that access to, to data.

Maynard James Keenan 1:06:38 Yeah. If I, uh, you know, I just um, I just harvested um, some uh, some of the stuff from our, our produce, from our garden. I'm like, I have this ran- these random things, I'm gonna try to do something with these random things. (laughs) Just type in the random ingredients recipe, like all these things, and there's-... like 12 fucking recipes wi- involving these things, and now I can make this amazing salad with these things. It's fucking delicious. And my wife's going, "What the fuck is this?"

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:07 You know, so there's those benefits of, like, "How do I, how do I roast coffee again? How do I..." You know?

Joe Rogan 1:07:12 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:12 "How do I, how do I make this particular sauce for a pasta?" It's all right there. "How do I fix this p- this specific power washer that's broken? How do I fix this power washer so I can get back to cleaning bins? Oh, here's a whole" (laughs) like, four video options of, like, understanding how to, you know, fix that, that mechanical thing that you could never ha- you would have to take it to somebody-

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 Hm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:37 ... 10 years ago.

Joe Rogan 1:07:38 Yeah, we just don't have the, the user manual for how to use it correctly.

Maynard James Keenan 1:07:44 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 You know? It's like everyone knows you can't drink whiskey all day long. You'll die, you know? But you could have a drink or two, and it can enhance conversation, and it's a social lubricant. You feel great. But we know that-

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:08:00 ... because we have a human history of use that dates back hundreds and hundreds of years of doing that.

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:05 But this, there's no thing going-

Joe Rogan 1:08:06 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:06 ... "Turn this fucking thing off."

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 Yeah. I just got a notification from my phone the other day that said, uh, my, uh, screen time is down 77%. And I'm like-

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:15 Congratulations.

Joe Rogan 1:08:17 ... "Yes."

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:17 CongratulationS.

Joe Rogan 1:08:18 I did it.

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:19 Yeah. But that's because of that, because trying to, like, make my own user manual.

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:25 I find that the reason I'm on it more than I would be is because three bands, three wineries, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 Sure.

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:33 ... with all the, th- all the businesses that I have going on, I end up being on it a lot more than I want to be just because I'm answering questions or inspiring plans or whatever.

Joe Rogan 1:08:43 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:08:43 I just have to be responsive. But I do-

Joe Rogan 1:08:46 Yeah, for me, it's a quest for interesting shit to stimulate my mind. That's... I mean, and I'm always looking for, like, what's a new place for me to go to find things, you know? And I, and I sometimes feel boxed in. I'm only going to, like, a specific, like, six or seven different sites to try to get information. Well, I need a new site. I need a new thing. Like, how do I get that thing?

Maynard James Keenan 1:09:05 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:09:06 Where is it? How do I get access to a new perspective that I didn't consider before? Like, and not get overwhelmed by fucking pop-up ads and bullshit-

Maynard James Keenan 1:09:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:09:17 ... and nonsense.

Maynard James Keenan 1:09:18 Yeah, I do, I do. You know, we're on the ... We're currently on the road. This is a, a stop on the way. We're playing Texas, uh, with the new version two of the Pussifere tour. And I find that when I'm, when I'm in the break after soundcheck or before training jujitsu with whatever person I can find in that town, uh, I end up, rather than going to those things that I should, like you're talking about, I'll just go back, and I'll be watching in my dressing room just old episodes of stuff. So it's almost like for me, it's like I'm turning my brain off.

Joe Rogan 1:09:52 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:09:53 With my Apple TV, I'm just, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna zone out and have a, like, whatever light lunch I'm gonna have before the show, play with my dog, and just let that kind of be almost background noise on what's going on. So I feel like there's, there's a, a, an unconscious zen thing happening with that eye candy, uh, and, you know, familiarity. Like, I'm ... How many times can I watch Talladega Nights? Pro-

Joe Rogan 1:10:20 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 1:10:21 Many more, to be honest.

Joe Rogan 1:10:23 Yeah, yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:10:23 I'm going to watch that many more times. But, like, that kind of thing, just being there on the background as a, as a familiar comfort, you know, blanket-

Joe Rogan 1:10:30 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:10:30 ... you know, um, um, to have it on so that I'm not, I'm not thinking too much. So in a way, I'm putting that on so I'm not on this.

Joe Rogan 1:10:38 Right. So you're learning.

Maynard James Keenan 1:10:40 I'm learning. Just put a movie on that, like, uh, that's going. And I'm ... Meanwhile, I'm cleaning out a drawer in the road case of shit that I didn't need. Like, everybody hands me T-shirts. I'm trying to figure out, like, "Okay, do I really wanna hang onto this T-shirt?"

Joe Rogan 1:10:51 There's so many T-shirts (laughs) .

Maynard James Keenan 1:10:52 (laughs) Yeah, there's so many shirts. There's so many shirts. I intentionally didn't bring you anything today because, like, I always br- like, I feel like you're probably just ... Every fucking time somebody comes in there, they're just giving you shit. So-

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 Yeah, but, uh, you know, every now and then, you get good shit.

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:07 That's true. That's true.

Joe Rogan 1:11:08 It's cool. Like, I have a lot of cool shit because of that.

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:11:11 Some of it's nonsense, but-

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:11:14 But it's ... Again, it's like the phone thing. Like, you gotta filter out what is nonsense.

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:18 Yep. That's-

Joe Rogan 1:11:19 What are you doing in Texas?

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:21 Uh-

Joe Rogan 1:11:21 What shows?

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:22 We just played ... Uh, Pussifere just played, uh, San Antonio and El Paso. We play, uh, Houston tomorrow and Fort Worth the day after. And I don't know where the fuck we go from there. I think it's, um, I wanna say Louisiana, Baton Rouge, and, um, New Orleans. Eventually, I think Halloween we're actually playing in Nashville, which I'm kind of excited about 'cause I love Nashville.

Joe Rogan 1:11:47 Nashville's awesome. It's, it's getting a little weird.

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:51 It's getting a little Hollywood, but still.

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:52 Yeah, but everybody ... Every place is going to get that way.

Joe Rogan 1:11:55 Of course.

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:55 It's just, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:11:56 As soon as it becomes popular.

Maynard James Keenan 1:11:56 ... especially with this pod- again, right back to this and right back to a podcast like this. I say, "Oh, I love Nashville," and that ... Now people are gonna ... You know, there's gonna be ... Even if it's five people that decide to go to Nashville because of hearing you say you like Nashville or me saying I like Nashville. You know? When, when did somebody say something about Austin that made you move to Austin? 'Cause, like, you know, somebody said something and inspired you to move to Austin. Which, when I used to be here, it was a much different town when I hung out here in 1985-

Joe Rogan 1:12:30 Mm-hmm.

Maynard James Keenan 1:12:31 ... at what's now, uh, Elysium, is the, is the club now on, on Red River. It used to be ... It may, it might still be. It was, like, a gay bar. And on, uh, one night a week, it would have a thing called Club Iguana. And it was like a kind of a goth punk rock night in that location. And that area was ... You know, it was like the sketchy 7th Street was all the, you know, kind of cool alternative, gay bar, punk rock thing, and then 6th Street was all the frat boy things. I think it's still kind of that.... it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:13:04 6th Street's pretty weird now. It's got a lot of cool shit.

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:07 Is it?

Joe Rogan 1:13:08 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:08 'Cause it, you know, 'cause like the-

Joe Rogan 1:13:09 All the hip-hop clubs and...

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:10 Yeah. Well, Elysium now is like f... I think I could be completely wrong, but it's, it's more like, it's now it's goth most of the time.

Joe Rogan 1:13:17 Oh, really?

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:18 But I, but I don't know that. I haven't been in, in years.

Joe Rogan 1:13:20 Oh, I started coming here in '99. And I just, I always liked the fact that it seemed different than any other city.

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:28 It's got its own... Is this it here?

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:29 This is Austin in 1985.

Joe Rogan 1:13:31 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:32 (laughs) Nice.

Joe Rogan 1:13:34 They look like they're dancing to Wham. << Wake me up... >>

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:37 And where, and where is this? Uh, yeah, I typed-

Joe Rogan 1:13:39 It's just, it's just-

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:39 ... in that club you said, and this is a video that popped up, so... Oh. Club Iguana? Yeah. I don't know that it's it specifically, but it's someone interviewing people on the street down there. Okay. ... crowds that come here- Well- ... we all know each other. How, how fucking amazing would it be if you see me in this video? (laughs) 'Cause I was- I was hoping. (laughs) Yeah. That'd be great.

Joe Rogan 1:13:55 Uh, look at those kids.

Maynard James Keenan 1:13:56 I w- you know, by day I had my, you know, my army cap on, and my f- my full BDUs, you know. And then at, you know, as soon as we hit... the weekend hit and we had the time off, hat comes off, two-toned hair, mohawk. Wear some, like, adamant-looking f- s- you know, Sgt. Pepper-looking jacket.

Joe Rogan 1:14:14 I forgot about adamant.

Maynard James Keenan 1:14:15 And then, like, wearing, you know, like stretchy blouse for pants, with a belt. So like it's, it's actually a shirt, but you're wearing it like... almost like tights, like, you know. We were... we had a fun time. It was a good time. Just the... I'm sure if you saw photos of me, you'd be like, "I'm posting this shit on the internet, dude."

Joe Rogan 1:14:31 (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 1:14:31 "Fucking don't you fucking dare post that on, on the internet." Uh, but that was a good time. It was fun because it was something I wasn't used to in, like Michigan we didn't have a club like that.

Joe Rogan 1:14:41 Right.

Maynard James Keenan 1:14:41 And, and it was like such a mixed, diverse, you know, uh, group of people. Um, I just love that area. And so I've always had a thing... since then, I've always had a thing for Austin. But I've watched Austin change over the years. But it seems like it has this great... I don't have the words... libertarian or, you know, cent- whatever. But you've got, you've got a mix of everybody here, and they've managed to get along and not kill each other.

Joe Rogan 1:15:09 (clicks tongue) Well, it's a good combination of a blue city and a red state, which is kind of my favorite.

Maynard James Keenan 1:15:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:15:15 It's like open-mindedness and progressive, but yet surrounded by people with guns who farm. (laughs)

Maynard James Keenan 1:15:22 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:24 You know? Ranchers.

Maynard James Keenan 1:15:24 Yeah, and that's kinda, and, and that's kind of what we have kind of up in, like in Jerome, uh, Sedona area. It's, it's very much that mix.

Joe Rogan 1:15:32 Yeah.

Maynard James Keenan 1:15:32 Um, but, you know, it's, it's a... I don't