Joe Rogan Experience #1887 - Maynard James Keenan

1. 0:00 – 1:25

   Sauna routines and staying healthy in the Arizona sun

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Do you ever sauna? Do you do that?

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan0:14

      I have a sauna, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Yeah?

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan0:15

      Well-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Do you use it?

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan0:16

      ... it, it had, um ... Initially, it had issues 'cause it could... the ... It was like a sh- you know, janky-ass, uh, actual heater that, that died, and we had to try to get another-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      Swap it out?

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan0:27

      Yeah, we had to order another one. They like ... No luck with that company, so we just... It's like, "Huh, that company doesn't exist anymore." And so had to get a different one in there, but it's fine. It, uh, we just got done putting a bunch of the, um, oil on it, sa- sauna oil to kinda ... 'Cause Arizona, the, the sun just like cooks everything.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:45

      Cooks the fucking wood, so there's like ... It was cracking in spaces, so ... The real hardcore folks, they use the wood-fired sauna, old school, like you're cooking pizza.

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan0:54

       Yeah. Well, they can do that.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Yeah.

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan0:57

       I am not that guy.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Yeah, they sell those. I'm like, "That seems like a lot of work." Plus, you gotta kill trees.

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan1:03

       And we, you know ... Uh, so we ... Um, you know, we use it quite a bit actually, uh, when it was, when it was running. Uh, but then like I was on the road, and then harvest, so we didn't bother with it until just now. We got it back running.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       It's so good for you, man. It's so good. I just got out. I, I do it after every workout. It's like religious. I make sure I get in there right afterwards.

   16. MKMaynard James Keenan1:23

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       It's the best.

   18. MKMaynard James Keenan1:25

       All right.

2. 1:25 – 2:44

   Training jiu-jitsu on the road: focus, fundamentals, and avoiding flashy trends

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:25

      You're training hard there, fella. Well, y- y- John Danaher teaching you the finer points of triangles. That was fun to watch.

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan1:33

      Yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard on, uh ... As you ... I've discussed this before. Uh, being on the road is, uh ... It's hard to find consistent training. Consistent training is your gym, that instructor-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:45

      Yeah.

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan1:46

      ... in your city, your drive back and forth to your house, uh, doing two classes a day maybe if you can. You know, like that kind of thing, but like the road is like inconsistent. So, the only consistency I can, I can really rely on is picking a particular subject and going to people that I know that know how to do it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:05

      Mm.

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan2:05

      Rather than allowing them to go, "Hey, I got this cool thing where you go upside down and stand on your head and do a backflip and ..." Like, buggy choke. Don't ... Please, I don't ... I'm 58. Please don't try to tell me, tell me what a buggy choke is right now.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:19

      You can't do a buggy choke?

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan2:20

      I might someday, but right now, I just wanna fucking get the triangles right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:24

      (laughs)

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan2:24

       So that's-

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:24

       Buggy choke's a good thing to learn though, right?

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan2:26

       Yeah, I wanna learn it, but like I got ... It's ... Let me, let me learn it when I'm gonna spend three weeks on it.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:32

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan2:33

       And focused on it with somebody who understands the details, somebody who also understands the counters, because the counters end up being as important as understanding, uh, the actual thing.

3. 2:44 – 4:32

   Modern submissions and MMA evolution: buggy chokes, von Flue, and counters

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:44

      Yeah, somebody caught a buggy choke recently in MMA. I think it was in Bellator.

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan2:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:48

      And the dude picked him up and slammed him.

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan2:50

      And he's out.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:50

      Uh, yeah, he got fucked up, and then he beat the shit out of him. I was like, "Hmm, yeah, that makes sense." 'Cause it's like you really are committed to that.

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan2:57

      You've attached yourself to the person and that they're big and strong and can drop y-

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:00

      Yeah.

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan3:01

      ... drop you on some ... A surface.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:03

      You just don't have options like you do with a triangle. You know, like if, uh, someone picks you up with a triangle, you drop down to the leg. You g- you let go. Like, when you're in a buggy choke, you're kinda committed I think.

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan3:13

       Mm-hmm, yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:13

       Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I could, should talk to like the Rotolo bro- ... Yeah, this is it right here. This ... No, this is not it. This is a different one. (sniffs) But people are getting these left and right now. You know, they ... Someone pulled one off in the UFC the other day, and, uh, uh, people didn't even know what the fuck it was.

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan3:28

       Right.

   13. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       I had to kind of explain it. I'm like, "This is so fascinating that this is a technique that is, uh, you know, for jujitsu, it's been around for like a year or so." He's out cold. Um, for jujitsu, it's been around for, for years rather, but for MMA, it's just, just starting to be applied.

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan3:47

       Right. But the beautiful thing about especially that high level, uh, of MMA is that somebody's gonna figure out how to, how to counter it-

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:55

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MKMaynard James Keenan3:55

       ... or, or prevent it. And then, then it's, then it's, uh, it's gone. Like, so-

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:00

       Yeah.

   18. MKMaynard James Keenan4:00

       I mean, for a while, yeah, like all of a sudden, people were catching, uh, the von Flue, and then all of a sudden, people are like, "No, no, I'm gonna, we're gonna counter that now." But then every now and then-

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:08

       Yeah, well-

   20. MKMaynard James Keenan4:09

       ... somebody catches one.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:10

       OSP's the master.

   22. MKMaynard James Keenan4:11

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:11

       He's the best at it. He's caught more of them than von Flue. Von Flue, I think, invented it, but OSP I think has more than anybody. He gets it all the time. It's like, it's an, a natural instinct when someone takes you down to hang onto that guillotine. You just wanna have some sort of control over them. And then all of a sudden, that person shifts weight, and they're on top of you sideways. You're like, "Oh, shit." Then your arm is trapped.

   24. MKMaynard James Keenan4:31

       Good night.

4. 4:32 – 6:46

   Danaher, gi vs. no-gi, and training with age and injuries

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:32

      Yeah, it's a nasty choke. There's this ... Jujitsu is so beautiful. It's so cool watching you guys today, like watching Danaher. Like, I learned something, that position of the knee to the ear. Like, I didn't know that. And I kind of, kind of did it anyway, but, like, watching the ... Like, he's so good at pointing out the finer details.

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan4:54

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:54

      You know, he's just such a master. What a fucking interesting person he is. There's no John Danahers out there.

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan5:01

      No.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:02

      Like if you said-

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan5:02

      No.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:02

      ... "I want a guy who was a professor of philosophy at Columbia University who's a genius, who fell in love with jujitsu and is dedicated to it so much so that he walks around with a rash guard every day." (laughs)

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan5:15

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:15

      He doesn't even have regular clothes.

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan5:17

       Yeah. (laughs) I was like ... I just, uh, just ... I ... You know, I was just kidding myself like, "So, John, are we gonna do, gonna do gi or no gi?"

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:22

       Ah.

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan5:23

       It's like ...

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:24

       I think he abandoned the gi a long time ago, right?

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan5:26

       Yeah. He was like, "No gi." (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:29

       Yeah. I mean, you can do ... The good thing about doing the gi is you must be defensively responsible because you can't get out of stuff. You can't just power out of things. You know, like there's certain techniques that you just ... You know, when you get trapped in them, you really have to mind your Ps and Qs when you get out if you have a gi.

   16. MKMaynard James Keenan5:48

       Yeah. And, and you know, I like, I like training both because I like, um, kind of training my mind to not rely on the gi.

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MKMaynard James Keenan5:55

       But then when it's ... When there's something like a lapel or a, you know, a jacket or a, a gi available, then-

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       ... yeah.

   20. MKMaynard James Keenan6:03

       I've trained how to deal with that piece of fabric, that's your now tool for you.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:08

       Well, I got very fortunate that I learned Gi from Jean Jacques Machado. And Jean Jacques Machado only has one hand. His left hand, he only has a thumb. So, Jean Jacques' game was always over hooks, and underhooks, and clinch. And, you know, that's why he was so successful in Abu Dhabi in the early days, 'cause it... All of his strategy completely applied to No-Gi, you know.

   22. MKMaynard James Keenan6:31

       Right.

   23. JRJoe Rogan6:31

       So, I sort of... When I was training, uh, with Gi, with, uh, Jean Jacques in No-Gi with Eddie Bravo, I would do the same things. I would just have to be more responsible defensively when I train with the Gi. You just... You just can't explode.

   24. MKMaynard James Keenan6:45

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:45

       You know.

5. 6:46 – 12:17

   Tour bus reality: sleep deprivation, dehydration, and finding training on tour

   1. MKMaynard James Keenan6:46

      I got back problems, I probably shouldn't train as much Gi anyway, 'cause guys get a hold of it and then you're... You're dealing with lower back issues.

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:53

      Do you... Do you have back problems? What kind of back problems you got?

   3. MKMaynard James Keenan6:56

      Uh, just lower back stuff.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:57

      Yeah.

   5. MKMaynard James Keenan6:58

      You know? Trying to do all the... Try it every, uh... It's just age and beat- beat down and traveling. You know, like on the bus, trying to describe... I was just trying to describe bus life to you guys out there. Like, you know, it's... You're sleeping in kind of a coffin.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:12

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MKMaynard James Keenan7:13

      Um, so it's kind of weird. You don't... You can't really sit up, 'cause there's a- a... There's something above your head. And that-

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:19

      How much time do you spend on a bus?

   9. MKMaynard James Keenan7:21

      Well, you know, be- between every gig, un- unless there's a day off, so, you know, we're doing two on, three on, and you're... So, you're sleeping on the bus. But it's like, imagine sleeping and then four people on each corner of your bed every 45 minutes just shaking it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:37

       Fuck that.

   11. MKMaynard James Keenan7:38

       Yeah. So, you're like... You're trying to get a solid seven, eight hours sleep, but you end up having to get 11 hours of sleep because three or four of that is you waking up in the middle of the night, 'cause you hit bumps.

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:49

       Hmm.

   13. MKMaynard James Keenan7:49

       Bad roads, you know, shit happens.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:51

       So, you... What do you do?

   15. MKMaynard James Keenan7:52

       Happens.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:52

       You have the driver drive you in the middle of the night?

   17. MKMaynard James Keenan7:54

       Yeah, so after the show, you're in the bus and you're going to the next city. And, you know, depending on the... Depending on the drive. If it's, you know, four hours, six hours, eight hours, nine hours, you know?

   18. JRJoe Rogan8:05

       Yeah, I have friends who do that, like Bert Kreischer does that. That's his thing. He loves tours and buses. I'm- I'm not into it.

   19. MKMaynard James Keenan8:12

       I don't love it. Um, I enjoy performing the songs. The travel part is the most difficult part. And then, you know, so you're... You're in air-conditioned, uh, scenarios, so you're getting a little dehydrated. You're trying to have to hydrate a little bit more than you normally would, and you're having to perform that other... That night. So, training is... Can be difficult-

   20. JRJoe Rogan8:33

       Hmm.

   21. MKMaynard James Keenan8:34

       ... on the road. So try to do where I... You know, do whatever I can, uh, to get training in.

   22. JRJoe Rogan8:39

       Yeah, I admire people that, like, just h- hit gyms, like random gyms, to show up at places when they're on the road. Like, that's a bold move.

   23. MKMaynard James Keenan8:48

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan8:48

       Never know who you're gonna train with.

   25. MKMaynard James Keenan8:50

       Yeah. No, and that's... And I'm... I'm a... I'm a pussy that way, for sure. I- I... Uh, people that I know-

   26. JRJoe Rogan8:56

       Yeah.

   27. MKMaynard James Keenan8:56

       ... I have... I have the mats, they come to me. Or if it's... If I'm going to a place, it's because I know the person.

   28. JRJoe Rogan9:01

       Do you weight train at all?

   29. MKMaynard James Keenan9:03

       Not much. I used to a little bit, um, but-

   30. JRJoe Rogan9:05

       It's really good for preventing injuries.
6. 12:17 – 19:50

   Puscifer lockdown projects: pay-per-view concerts, characters, and ownership control

   1. MKMaynard James Keenan12:17

      Yeah. Um, (sighs) so I'm on here to talk about stuff.

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:21

      What do you really want to talk about?

   3. MKMaynard James Keenan12:22

      'Cause I've been doing, I'm doing stuff, so-

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:24

      What're you doing?

   5. MKMaynard James Keenan12:24

      ... full disclosure, I'm here because I'm pimping stuff that I'm selling, so-

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:28

      You're pimping?

   7. MKMaynard James Keenan12:28

      Yeah, I'm pimping. Pimping my wares. Uh, so we did this-

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:32

      You look like a pimp. Look at that jacket.

   9. MKMaynard James Keenan12:33

      Hey, hey.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:34

       It's very pimply.

   11. MKMaynard James Keenan12:35

       Hey. (laughs) Forget about it.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:37

       I love that jacket.

   13. MKMaynard James Keenan12:38

       Uh, so, uh, we did ... When the, when the whole lockdown shit happened, um, and we were, we couldn't tour, um, it sucked because I just, I just released, uh, the TOOL album, and then on the heels of that, I released the Puscifer Existential Reckoning, and we couldn't tour Existential Reckoning. So, what we did, we figured out, "Okay, screw it, everybody's doing these, um, these, uh, streaming events, pay-per-views."

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:03

       Right.

   15. MKMaynard James Keenan13:04

       So, we did one-

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       Right.

   17. MKMaynard James Keenan13:05

       ... for the, for the release of the album, and for Puscifer, it just made sense. That was the thing that, for what we do with our characters and some of our sense of humor and the nature of, you know, some of the kind of interesting, uh, heady, uh, landscapes that we kind of paint with some of the songs, it just, it's a really, um, interesting format for us and everybody in the band, uh, went, "This is a great, this is a good thing for us." So, we did another one. We did, um, Billy D & The Hall of Feathered Serpents, which was all of the Money Shot album and all the Luchador stuff, uh, that we shot at the Mayan Theatre. We released that one. So, we went ahead and did this, still during lockdown before we actually got back on the road, uh, we did, uh, Conditions of My Parole, the whole album called Parole Violator. So, it's a bunch of stuff that's got Billy D and Major Douche and a bunch of the characters, Hildy and everything, along with everything from Conditions by Parole, and we did, uh, a bunch of the V is for Vagina era songs, uh, reworked them completely, and shot that all in the Sunset Sound studio in Hollywood. There's come, there's come some bits in that one as well. But, uh, those are two pay-per-views that are coming out, um, this coming weekend, Halloween weekend, so that's-

   18. JRJoe Rogan14:18

       And do you do these pay-per-views off your website?

   19. MKMaynard James Keenan14:21

       Well, we're gonna, we're ... Yeah, the puscifertv.com is where they're gonna live for now as, as a temporary thing. Eventually we'll release them on Blu-ray and through iTunes and all that stuff.

   20. JRJoe Rogan14:30

       Oh, it is right here?

   21. MKMaynard James Keenan14:31

       There he is.

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:31

       Double feature.

   23. MKMaynard James Keenan14:32

       Oh, yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan14:34

       Nice.

   25. MKMaynard James Keenan14:36

       Yeah, so it's, uh, it's just a, it's just such a fun ... When I figured out, when I figured out what it was and how we can do it, and how ... We were like duck to water with it. It was just, all of us are really good with, um, just the concepts, putting it all together. Matt Mitchell's an incredible, um, not only just a producer but for the record an engineer, but also his approach to figuring out how to put all these things together, uh, and our team, his, his girlfriend Alisa.

   26. JRJoe Rogan15:03

       You're living a fun life, dude.

   27. MKMaynard James Keenan15:05

       Oh, yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan15:06

       I like what you're doing. (laughs)

   29. MKMaynard James Keenan15:10

       (Laughs) Yeah, so it's just, it's just, uh, it's ... I don't know, we just kind of went, and, uh, it's ... It resonates with us, th- this approach of doing this thing. Like, the idea of, like, doing a, like a series, Puscifer series, that doesn't really ... I think full concert with all the cool stuff in it just-

   30. JRJoe Rogan15:25

       Have you bandied about doing a series? Have you thought about it?
7. 19:50 – 30:24

   Wine, coffee, and building local businesses: finding your “taste” and your market

   1. JRJoe Rogan19:50

      Allegedly. Do, do you follow, like, other types of ... Do, do you follow, like, uh, cigar-growing or coffee-growing or all these other different things that vary so much on the soil and things along those lines?

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan20:06

      Uh, coffee a little bit. Uh, we just picked up a ... well, it's not here yet, but it's-

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:09

      Do you like, want some? Have some of this.

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan20:11

      No, I'm good. I'm good.

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:12

      Good. This is good stuff.

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan20:13

      Uh, I had, I've had two today, so I'm gonna yammer a little bit.

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:17

      I like yammering.

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan20:18

      I yammer.

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:18

      It's what we do.

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan20:19

       Uh, I just picked up, um ... it's not here yet. Uh, we picked up a nice, uh, modern roaster, so ... 'cause once I move the osteria that's in Cottonwood up to the new Hill project, that building in Cottonwood will become, uh, a coffee, uh, roaster and breakfast, brunch place.

   11. JRJoe Rogan20:38

       Mm.

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan20:38

       So, we're actually, we're actually pursuing relationships with, uh, beans, uh, and, and, you know, importers of, of coffee beans.

   13. JRJoe Rogan20:46

       So, when you do that, like, uh, I'm good friends with Evan Hafner from Black Rifle Coffee.

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan20:50

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan20:50

       And he'll travel all over the world-

   16. MKMaynard James Keenan20:52

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan20:53

       ... and try out different beans and try out different things, and that's what this stuff is right here.

   18. MKMaynard James Keenan20:58

       Yeah, that's-

   19. JRJoe Rogan20:58

       I've gotten really into it for the last year.

   20. MKMaynard James Keenan20:59

       Oh, this is, this is Black Rifle?

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:00

       Yeah. Well, I've had some of this.

   22. MKMaynard James Keenan21:01

       Well, then I gotta, yeah, I gotta-

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:02

       That's what I'm talking about.

   24. MKMaynard James Keenan21:03

       Sorry, brother. I didn't know it was yours, brother. I'm sorry.

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:06

       Yeah. No, he's ... Cheers, sir.

   26. MKMaynard James Keenan21:08

       Cheers.

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:08

       Always good to see you. Yeah. Evan makes some fucking phenomenal stuff.

   28. MKMaynard James Keenan21:14

       Oh, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:15

       Yeah.

   30. MKMaynard James Keenan21:15

       So, you know, so I have my, you know ... Todd Fox is basically my, my go-to guy. He, he actually has, he has that eye of the tiger on those kind of things.
8. 30:24 – 41:52

   Jiu-jitsu mindset as life training: drilling, self-control, and being okay with losing

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:24

      How much does that, how much does training in jujitsu help just your m- your mind, the way you approach life, and the way you think about things?

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan30:32

      Well, it's, it's the, like I've mentioned before on your show, this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. This is not, does not come easy for me. I am the perfect example of a klutzy dude who this is not, this is not natural for me to do. Um, and because of that, because of that, it, well, forever, it was stressful. And so you're activating your mind in a stressful situation and, you know, you're still getting oxygen in, in your blood, and you're moving, and you're, and you're, and you're opening up things. But at some point, it became more like chess instead of this, "Oh my god, this guy's gonna tap me." Well, of course he's gonna tap you. (laughs) If you just get that in your head, like, "I'm going, I might lose today. I'm probably gonna lose today." Be comfortable in that moment of understanding how to, like, be conscious and aware in that moment so that you can recognize the moment before you get to the moment now, for next time.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:30

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan31:31

      That's, that w- that was, that was a weird shift for me, getting to a position of, like, "I'm in a compromised position, but I'm gonna get to a safe position within the compromised position, take a deep breath, and pay attention to what he does next so that next time I can be ahead of what he does next." Weird mental-

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:49

      Mm.

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan31:50

      ... thing.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:50

      And then training enough that you could store all this data and have it accessible-

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan31:56

      Yes.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:56

      ... when these scenarios present themselves again.

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan31:58

       Yeah, because again, it's about body control and understanding what your body's gonna do naturally now. The drilling, the drilling, the drilling. I cannot stress enough the drilling in a safe environment with somebody who's not trying to tear your head off, with a good training partner who's gonna give you the resistance you need-

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan32:15

       ... to be able to rep, you know, uh, the repetition, and then replicate that movement. Yeah, we're talking about jujitsu, but we're not. We're talking about making pasta. We're talking about making wine. These are things-

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:28

       Yes.

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan32:28

       ... that apply to every area of your life. If you can find one that's more difficult for you than the other ones, you'll improve the things that come naturally to you by focusing on the thing that doesn't come naturally to you.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       Yeah, it's the-

   16. MKMaynard James Keenan32:42

       And-

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       ... great quote from Miyamoto Musashi, "Once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things."

   18. MKMaynard James Keenan32:48

       Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:51

       Yeah. That's, uh, that's the beauty of martial arts, and, uh, that's the, that's the thing that's missed by people that don't practice it, that think of it as, like, some sort of brutal endeavor for, you know, macho brutes, assholes.

   20. MKMaynard James Keenan33:06

       Yeah, I mean, they're, but, you know, we know those guys.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       They exist.

   22. MKMaynard James Keenan33:09

       You know, they exist.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       But they need to exercise, too. (laughs)

   24. MKMaynard James Keenan33:12

       Yeah. Yeah, they do. Uh, but, you know, it's, I think, um, that just that finding that thing that's actually challenging you physically, mentally, spiritually helps with other things that come along 'cause there's, you know, the world's weird right now. There's, there's things, (laughs) I don't know, I feel like that we're, we're helping train people to understand that the world goes through a lot of changes. There's gonna be a lot of stress. Nobody's gonna, uh, 90% of the people of the world are not gonna agree with you, and if you can get through that mentally and emotionally and spiritually to know that there's something on the other side.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:53

       Yeah.

   26. MKMaynard James Keenan33:53

       I think things like jujitsu, things like growing food, uh, gr- resigning yourself to nature and having to navigate farming, those kind of things, they start to reset you in a way where, like, it's not this, not everything has to be an argument.

   27. JRJoe Rogan34:09

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MKMaynard James Keenan34:10

       Sometimes it's you just having to navigate the fucking weather.

   29. JRJoe Rogan34:13

       Yeah.

   30. MKMaynard James Keenan34:14

       If you can get to that mindset, you get a lot more done, honestly, and you'll survive shit that m- some people won't because they're so focused on the petty, dumb shit that they're gonna miss the bigger picture.
9. 41:52 – 48:55

   How Maynard writes: responding to riffs, building puzzles, and disciplined collaboration

   1. JRJoe Rogan41:52

      When you write, do you write, um, uh, on your own? Do you write with other people? Like how do you create music? Do you create music alone?

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan42:01

      Yes. It's- it's like- f- for me, it's- it's, "Okay, I'm gonna train- I'm gonna train jujitsu," okay, we're gonna bring it back to that 'cause that's- that's our- that's our- that's our- uh, our- our base here. Uh, if I'm- you know, if I'm gonna train with somebody, every diff- every body type is gonna be a different thing, and I can't just... You know how it is. If you- if you're just going to force your will on some other dude-... then it's just two idiots f- trying to force their will on each other, and you're gonna gas out. You have to see what this thing is and this person, how they're approaching you. Are they approaching you standing? Are they s- butt-scooting? Are they gonna, you know ... Are they gonna, you know ... Whatever they're gonna do, each song and every riff or whatever is a reaction to what I'm seeing or hearing, right? So I'm not just gonna come in with a lyric and come up with a line on top of some kind of rhythm or melody. I have to pay attention to what's in front of me and a ... and work around that thing. And listen to it and pay attention to it and drill for-

   3. JRJoe Rogan43:05

      So how does this process start? Like, say you have-

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan43:08

      Might be a rhythm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan43:08

      ... a blank slate.

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan43:09

      Blank slate. So for me, there's not really a blank slate. It's me going to ... Maybe it's me going to, um, Matt and going, "Okay, just in general, uh, I'd like to see what we can do with ... There's some sounds that I heard on this ... You know, maybe it was a movie soundtrack, maybe it was a, a record." You know, maybe I'm picking out, like, mandolin or, you know, some kind of a particular pedal from a guitar or a film that has, like, a Ry Cooder riff going through it or something, a vibe. And maybe Matt has picked up ... In the case of Existential Reckoning, he picked up a bunch of amazing old synths, like Faairlight and, uh, Synclavier and all this kinda cool shit that, that's ... In a way, it's-

   7. JRJoe Rogan43:53

      What are you saying, synths?

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan43:54

      Synthesizers.

   9. JRJoe Rogan43:55

      Synthesizers.

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan43:55

       Yeah, so old-school, like, you know, Kraftwerk, you know, um, Yes, uh, old, like, you know-

   11. JRJoe Rogan44:00

       Oh, okay.

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan44:00

       ... Michael j- Michael Jackson's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan44:01

       Mm.

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan44:02

       ... like bom, bom, bom, bom. Like that familiar sound, but it's from a s- very specific thing. And you can manipulate those sounds to a point, but they are kind ... You're kinda boxed in on the ... what those things can do in some cases. Like the Faairlight's very ... It's gonna give you a very specific sound. Well, in there ... Now, there's the framework, and he'll come up with a melody or a thing, and he'll throw it to me, and I'll just drill, drill, drill that thing into my head, driving around with it in my car, truck, you know, putting headphones on on the plane, and just listen ... In the cellar, I'll put it on while I'm working on stuff, just to h- just to put that thing on loop and drill it into my head of what it is so that I can figure out how to go through, around, or over this thing-

   15. JRJoe Rogan44:54

       Mm.

   16. MKMaynard James Keenan44:54

       Work with it, work against it intentionally. So it's, it's a, it's a mathematical, three-dimensional, geometric puzzle. It's true.

   17. JRJoe Rogan45:03

       So when you're listening to it and you're just, like, going over it in your head, you're just, like, allowing it to talk to you?

   18. MKMaynard James Keenan45:09

       Correct. Correct. You know-

   19. JRJoe Rogan45:11

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MKMaynard James Keenan45:11

       ... just like we were going over today with Danaher, like ...

   21. JRJoe Rogan45:13

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MKMaynard James Keenan45:13

       "Okay, we're in this position, but did the guy retract his elbow or did he leave his elbow forward?"

   23. JRJoe Rogan45:18

       Mm.

   24. MKMaynard James Keenan45:18

       Is the riff giving me an elbow? Is there ... Or is the-

   25. JRJoe Rogan45:22

       Mm.

   26. MKMaynard James Keenan45:22

       Is the riff cutting me off on a particular rhythm or a melody? 'Cause, you know, you might have a melody in mind, but you get closer to the end of that riff and it might have changed directions, then your note is sour. So you have to pay attention to what note goes with that thing, and rhythmically as well as sonically, like, you know, melodically.

   27. JRJoe Rogan45:41

       Mm.

   28. MKMaynard James Keenan45:42

       So it's a ... It's you getting used to this thing, 'cause ... And he might be able to move it. I might go back, "Hey man, can we, can we adjust a few things in here and move forward?" So it is definitely a step-by-step piece. I will respond. Then he will give me back a thing that he's developed further, and I will respond to his response. And then at some point, I'll go to Karina and go, "Hey, I'd like to hear ... Before I go too far, I wanna hear what you would do over what I've done, over what he's done." And now, it's a tryout of, of us, uh, navigating, uh, that sonic landscape.

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       So it, it, it must be an interesting dance in that you have to do it with people that have sort of the same engagement that you do, the same level of discipline, the same-

   30. MKMaynard James Keenan46:32

       Same level of discipline, but strengths where I don't have strengths, I have strengths where they don't have strengths. So you're ... It's, it's ... You're kind of, you're kind of filling in each other's gaps with a common goal.
10. 48:55 – 1:04:30

    Relevancy, pop stardom, and escaping the “machine” (Miley Cyrus, Bieber, Black Mirror)

    1. MKMaynard James Keenan48:55

       Right. I will definitely, you know, probably already, I, you know, I'm in- have my head up my own ass, but, you know, I- I won't be relevant to the TikTokers of the world because they're- it's just not- it's not on their radar. It's not those people that listen to the things they listen to and the things that respond- the people that respond or the things they respond to now, I'm not necessarily relevant. But there's an entire generation of people that's not just my generation. There's people older than me and much younger than me that have grown with this thing and so as they're aging, they're- they're res- they're discovering it.

    2. JRJoe Rogan49:38

       Right.

    3. MKMaynard James Keenan49:38

       Right?

    4. JRJoe Rogan49:39

       Can you think- do you think about that though? Do you think about, like, whether or not you're relevant or whether or not...

    5. MKMaynard James Keenan49:44

       You can't because you'll start being desperate and getting plastic surgery-

    6. JRJoe Rogan49:48

       (laughs)

    7. MKMaynard James Keenan49:48

       ... and looking like a fucking alien and trying to-

    8. JRJoe Rogan49:50

       (laughs)

    9. MKMaynard James Keenan49:50

       ... insert yourself into some stupid fucking thing. I'm not talking about anybody.

    10. JRJoe Rogan49:55

        Yeah. No, you can't.

    11. MKMaynard James Keenan49:56

        I'm not talking about my peers. Fuck, man.

    12. JRJoe Rogan49:59

        No. 'Cause if you're alive, you have to assume other people are gonna... y- if you're on a vibe, there's other people that are gonna be on that vibe. There's so many people.

    13. MKMaynard James Keenan50:07

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan50:07

        You can't, yeah, the- the- the quest for relevancy is like, oh boy.

    15. MKMaynard James Keenan50:11

        It- it- it- it- it turns to desperation very quickly.

    16. JRJoe Rogan50:15

        Yeah.

    17. MKMaynard James Keenan50:15

        It reeks. So just maintain your art, dude. Like, just, and then, I don't know, we're just having- we're having fun creating.

    18. JRJoe Rogan50:23

        Well, you guys are also so diverse. Like, your sounds are so diverse and I think that's one of the- the strengths of you is that with Tool and Puscifer and like, you know, Perfect Circle, you've done so- so much different stuff. It's like-

    19. MKMaynard James Keenan50:37

        That's the listening part.

    20. JRJoe Rogan50:38

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MKMaynard James Keenan50:38

        What does Billy do? What does- what do Adam, Justin and Danny do? What does Matt and Karina do? I'm listening to what they're doing and having that conversation with them and building on those relationships.

    22. JRJoe Rogan50:51

        Yeah.

    23. MKMaynard James Keenan50:51

        They're different conversations, they're different people with different life experiences. The art and the sounds that come out of those people is gonna be 100% different. Even if I'm the common thing, if you- if- if nobody knew that I was in Puscifer and you were just listening to it, you might pick up that I- that kind of sounds like the guy from Perfect Circle, but m- probably not. Like, it would be a whole different experience if you didn't-

    24. JRJoe Rogan51:16

        Yeah.

    25. MKMaynard James Keenan51:16

        ... know that I was involved.

    26. JRJoe Rogan51:18

        Yeah, for sure. That's why I think these kind of conversations are so interesting to other artists 'cause they get to, like, see this sort of, like, you know, you've- you've been around long enough that you're- you're- you have a foundation, you know, you're solid in your approach and there's a lot of people out there that are like, "Am I doing it right? I mean, what am I doing? I don't know if my... is this the right way to do it? Is it... should I change it? Should I... what- what should I do?" And then-

    27. MKMaynard James Keenan51:43

        I have that, you know, I'm, you know, I'm fairly confident in some things, but I try to, like, change it up as much as I can. I guess, you know, that's, you know, gonna start roasting coffee soon, so maybe that's one of those, like, resets of, like, "I don't know what I'm doing."

    28. JRJoe Rogan51:59

        Right.

    29. MKMaynard James Keenan51:59

        "Let's relearn this thing that I don't have any idea and it might suck."

    30. JRJoe Rogan52:03

        Those are valuable, right? Those new things?
11. 1:04:30 – 1:34:01

    Technology’s double edge: TikTok surveillance, screen-time discipline, and tool-vs-weapon thinking

    1. MKMaynard James Keenan1:04:30

       But like any, but like anything, it's a, it's, it's a hammer. Right? You can use that hammer to build something, you can use that hammer to destroy something. This is, this is such an awful thing and such an amazing thing-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:04:43

       Mm-hmm.

    3. MKMaynard James Keenan1:04:43

       ... depending on how you're, how you're dealing with it.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:04:46

       Yeah.

    5. MKMaynard James Keenan1:04:47

       Like, you can use it to gain more control, more money, or you can use it, you know, to share things with people.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:04:54

       Right.

    7. MKMaynard James Keenan1:04:55

       And, and help them find a way.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:58

       And also like having a level of discipline is so important when engaging with that thing 'cause I think, and you know, we were talking about TikTok earlier today-

    9. MKMaynard James Keenan1:05:07

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:05:07

        ... about how the, the parent company of TikTok is using TikTok to s- specifically monitor the locations of American individuals and how fucking crazy that is, that-

    11. MKMaynard James Keenan1:05:19

        I, I deleted it.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:05:20

        Yeah, I never had it.

    13. MKMaynard James Keenan1:05:22

        Yeah.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:05:22

        I wouldn't... I- I, right away I was like, "What?" And then when they were talking about banning it and I started looking into it, I was like, "That thing's... that's a problem." And then we read on one day, uh, d- during the podcast, we read the terms of service and what it's allowed to do if you, in which nobody reads. And uh-

    15. MKMaynard James Keenan1:05:40

        Agree.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:05:41

        Yeah.

    17. MKMaynard James Keenan1:05:41

        Agree.

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:05:41

        Agree. Everyone agrees. But it's so fucked up that when I read it, I couldn't believe that it was real. We had to, I had to go over it from multiple different sites. And then like, I wanna know that this is, am I being accurate with this? Is, does it really have access to your computers that aren't connected to TikTok? If you have the same, like if you use the same email account, you have the same computer and network, yes. Yes, it does. It has access to everything you do, which is fucking bananas. So I read that over and one of my kids came home and she said that her friend was mad because her mom listened to me-

    19. MKMaynard James Keenan1:06:16

        (laughs)

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:06:16

        ... talk about the terms of service and made him-

    21. MKMaynard James Keenan1:06:18

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:06:18

        ... delete TikTok from his phone.

    23. MKMaynard James Keenan1:06:21

        Yeah. Yeah. It's new world. It's a whole new world.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:06:26

        But on the other side-

    25. MKMaynard James Keenan1:06:27

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:06:27

        ... there's so much, there's so much interesting stuff that you can get off of it. I'm, I'm so much more educated about so many different subjects because of it, because of that access to, to data.

    27. MKMaynard James Keenan1:06:38

        Yeah. If I, uh, you know, I just um, I just harvested um, some uh, some of the stuff from our, our produce, from our garden. I'm like, I have this ran- these random things, I'm gonna try to do something with these random things. (laughs) Just type in the random ingredients recipe, like all these things, and there's-... like 12 fucking recipes wi- involving these things, and now I can make this amazing salad with these things. It's fucking delicious. And my wife's going, "What the fuck is this?"

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:07:07

        Yeah.

    29. MKMaynard James Keenan1:07:07

        You know, so there's those benefits of, like, "How do I, how do I roast coffee again? How do I..." You know?

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:07:12

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:53:43