Joe Rogan Experience #1887 - Maynard James Keenan

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast.…

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Do you ever sauna? Do you do that?

   2. MKMaynard James Keenan0:14

      I have a sauna, yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Yeah?

   4. MKMaynard James Keenan0:15

      Well-

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Do you use it?

   6. MKMaynard James Keenan0:16

      ... it, it had, um ... Initially, it had issues 'cause it could... the ... It was like a sh- you know, janky-ass, uh, actual heater that, that died, and we had to try to get another-

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      Swap it out?

   8. MKMaynard James Keenan0:27

      Yeah, we had to order another one. They like ... No luck with that company, so we just... It's like, "Huh, that company doesn't exist anymore." And so had to get a different one in there, but it's fine. It, uh, we just got done putting a bunch of the, um, oil on it, sa- sauna oil to kinda ... 'Cause Arizona, the, the sun just like cooks everything.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:45

      Cooks the fucking wood, so there's like ... It was cracking in spaces, so ... The real hardcore folks, they use the wood-fired sauna, old school, like you're cooking pizza.

   10. MKMaynard James Keenan0:54

       Yeah. Well, they can do that.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       Yeah.

   12. MKMaynard James Keenan0:57

       I am not that guy.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Yeah, they sell those. I'm like, "That seems like a lot of work." Plus, you gotta kill trees.

   14. MKMaynard James Keenan1:03

       And we, you know ... Uh, so we ... Um, you know, we use it quite a bit actually, uh, when it was, when it was running. Uh, but then like I was on the road, and then harvest, so we didn't bother with it until just now. We got it back running.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       It's so good for you, man. It's so good. I just got out. I, I do it after every workout. It's like religious. I make sure I get in there right afterwards.

   16. MKMaynard James Keenan1:23

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       It's the best.

   18. MKMaynard James Keenan1:25

       All right.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:25

       You're training hard there, fella. Well, y- y- John Danaher teaching you the finer points of triangles. That was fun to watch.

   20. MKMaynard James Keenan1:33

       Yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard on, uh ... As you ... I've discussed this before. Uh, being on the road is, uh ... It's hard to find consistent training. Consistent training is your gym, that instructor-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       Yeah.

   22. MKMaynard James Keenan1:46

       ... in your city, your drive back and forth to your house, uh, doing two classes a day maybe if you can. You know, like that kind of thing, but like the road is like inconsistent. So, the only consistency I can, I can really rely on is picking a particular subject and going to people that I know that know how to do it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:05

       Mm.

   24. MKMaynard James Keenan2:05

       Rather than allowing them to go, "Hey, I got this cool thing where you go upside down and stand on your head and do a backflip and ..." Like, buggy choke. Don't ... Please, I don't ... I'm 58. Please don't try to tell me, tell me what a buggy choke is right now.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:19

       You can't do a buggy choke?

   26. MKMaynard James Keenan2:20

       I might someday, but right now, I just wanna fucking get the triangles right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:24

       (laughs)

   28. MKMaynard James Keenan2:24

       So that's-

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:24

       Buggy choke's a good thing to learn though, right?

   30. MKMaynard James Keenan2:26

       Yeah, I wanna learn it, but like I got ... It's ... Let me, let me learn it when I'm gonna spend three weeks on it.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   You're living a fun…

   1. MKMaynard James Keenan15:00

      uh, and our team, his, his girlfriend Alisa.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:03

      You're living a fun life, dude.

   3. MKMaynard James Keenan15:05

      Oh, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:06

      I like what you're doing. (laughs)

   5. MKMaynard James Keenan15:10

      (Laughs) Yeah, so it's just, it's just, uh, it's ... I don't know, we just kind of went, and, uh, it's ... It resonates with us, th- this approach of doing this thing. Like, the idea of, like, doing a, like a series, Puscifer series, that doesn't really ... I think full concert with all the cool stuff in it just-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      Have you bandied about doing a series? Have you thought about it?

   7. MKMaynard James Keenan15:28

      Yeah, but I think, you know, uh, I'm friends with, uh, Mark Brooks, who used to be a part of Metalocalypse, and conversations I'd had with him and various other people that have been in the, involved in those things, they're like, "As soon as you go down that path with somebody like Adult Swim or Comedy Central and all those things, they just own that thing now."

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:45

      Mm.

   9. MKMaynard James Keenan15:45

      So, imagine like me getting in the wrong contract and now all these characters that I've developed, I can't even take these on the road now because some other douchebag owns them.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:53

       Oh, you can't do that. No, no, no, no, no.

   11. MKMaynard James Keenan15:54

       Yeah, we're not doing that, so ...

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       No, no, no, no, no.

   13. MKMaynard James Keenan15:56

       It's just-

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:56

       But what about doing it independently? What about doing a series, you know, doing it yourself?

   15. MKMaynard James Keenan16:01

       Do it? Well, I think, I think my, my attention span, I think having, being it the full hour, uh, hour and change thing, that makes sense. Doing like the small episodes and having to, to build in all those stories for an entire season and have somebody expect following through with the next season, I don't think that I could, I don't think I could do that.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Do you ... You have to kind of manage ... You have so many interests, you kind of have to manage your time wisely, don't you?

   17. MKMaynard James Keenan16:27

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       Because the, the, the vineyard, the winery requires so much focus and so much attention.

   19. MKMaynard James Keenan16:34

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:34

       As does the creation of the music.

   21. MKMaynard James Keenan16:36

       Yeah, and I couldn't, I couldn't do w- with the winery, the success of the winery, I couldn't do it without people like, uh, you know, my wife and, and Tim White and Calvin and the various people that are involved, uh, Aaron Weiss, uh, in kind of handling their jobs, the delegation of what you guys do, um. I have to be there to make the decisions when it comes to the wine making. I'm on the forklift, I'm the one, I'm the one, you know, there, uh, deciding what's gonna go in what tank because every- everything ends up making, it changes the outcome of what's happening, and that's just the approaches of when we're picking the grapes, what grapes are we planting. All those things are ... come back to me, but the follow through, if I didn't have Jen and Tim and Calvin and Aaron and, uh, all my vineyard managers, uh, Chris and Jesse, if I didn't have those people in place, I couldn't do it at all. At all.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:26

       Mm.

   23. MKMaynard James Keenan17:27

       So it's about ... It's, uh, it's not just a matter of, matter of me organizing my time, it's also about me delegating to people that I can trust to make the decision beyond the initial framework that I've set in place.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:41

       Now, when you make wine and you grow these grapes, the, the grapes vary seasonally, they vary depend- does it, does the flavor vary dependent upon the weather conditions and what you do and don't do to the soil?... like, does that mature or change over time?

   25. MKMaynard James Keenan18:00

       Yeah. And, you know, and generally speaking, you're trying to pick a location that the soil itself is going to express something in this way for a very, you know, forever. That, that's gonna be what that site does. You're not gonna-

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:12

       And what are the, what's the variables when it comes to the soil?

   27. MKMaynard James Keenan18:16

       Well, this is a word called terroir.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:18

       Terroir?

   29. MKMaynard James Keenan18:19

       Yeah. And it's everything. Everything, every, every completely untrackable thing that you could think of in terms of the levels of moisture, when that moisture hits that soil, how f- how deep does that moisture go in, the content, the geology of the soil, um, the, you know, the weather patterns in that area and how they shift year to year. What grape, what actual clone did you plant in that spot and how that clone is gonna react differently to all of those infinite variables of just the soil, never mind the infinite variables of the weather. And then, when you choose to pick, how you choose to prune, how many clusters you decide to set on that particular vine, how you decide to train that vine. Is it gonna be a unilateral, is it gonna be bilateral, is it gonna be just a, a bush pruned? All these different variables about how you're gonna do that farming, that affects the outcome. In general, though, if there's a particular region that does well with a particular grape, like Oregon with Pinot noir, there might be various ways that they're pruning and, and adjusting the, how they're, how they're training and growing that fruit, but it's, generally speaking, it's gonna be Pinot from Oregon. It's gonna, it's gonna have a particular profile across that state. Variations from region to region, from site to site, from producer to producer, but in general, it should have a signature that suggests Oregon Pinot.

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:49

       Mm.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. MKMaynard James Keenan30:00

      of understanding that this isn't just you flopping around like a fish, accidentally kneeing some dude in the face while you're going for a move-You're not really progressing if you don't understand that it is about your self-control. So, okay, yeah, that's self, that's a self-defense approach to the jujitsu, but I'm also conscious enough to know, okay, I'm gonna do this. Fuck it, I'm gonna play around with X card and see what happens-

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:20

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MKMaynard James Keenan30:20

      ... because I've never done it, and I want to see how that, what that is.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:24

      How much does that, how much does training in jujitsu help just your m- your mind, the way you approach life, and the way you think about things?

   5. MKMaynard James Keenan30:32

      Well, it's, it's the, like I've mentioned before on your show, this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. This is not, does not come easy for me. I am the perfect example of a klutzy dude who this is not, this is not natural for me to do. Um, and because of that, because of that, it, well, forever, it was stressful. And so you're activating your mind in a stressful situation and, you know, you're still getting oxygen in, in your blood, and you're moving, and you're, and you're, and you're opening up things. But at some point, it became more like chess instead of this, "Oh my god, this guy's gonna tap me." Well, of course he's gonna tap you. (laughs) If you just get that in your head, like, "I'm going, I might lose today. I'm probably gonna lose today." Be comfortable in that moment of understanding how to, like, be conscious and aware in that moment so that you can recognize the moment before you get to the moment now, for next time.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:30

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MKMaynard James Keenan31:31

      That's, that w- that was, that was a weird shift for me, getting to a position of, like, "I'm in a compromised position, but I'm gonna get to a safe position within the compromised position, take a deep breath, and pay attention to what he does next so that next time I can be ahead of what he does next." Weird mental-

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:49

      Mm.

   9. MKMaynard James Keenan31:50

      ... thing.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:50

       And then training enough that you could store all this data and have it accessible-

   11. MKMaynard James Keenan31:56

       Yes.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:56

       ... when these scenarios present themselves again.

   13. MKMaynard James Keenan31:58

       Yeah, because again, it's about body control and understanding what your body's gonna do naturally now. The drilling, the drilling, the drilling. I cannot stress enough the drilling in a safe environment with somebody who's not trying to tear your head off, with a good training partner who's gonna give you the resistance you need-

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MKMaynard James Keenan32:15

       ... to be able to rep, you know, uh, the repetition, and then replicate that movement. Yeah, we're talking about jujitsu, but we're not. We're talking about making pasta. We're talking about making wine. These are things-

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:28

       Yes.

   17. MKMaynard James Keenan32:28

       ... that apply to every area of your life. If you can find one that's more difficult for you than the other ones, you'll improve the things that come naturally to you by focusing on the thing that doesn't come naturally to you.

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       Yeah, it's the-

   19. MKMaynard James Keenan32:42

       And-

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:42

       ... great quote from Miyamoto Musashi, "Once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things."

   21. MKMaynard James Keenan32:48

       Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:51

       Yeah. That's, uh, that's the beauty of martial arts, and, uh, that's the, that's the thing that's missed by people that don't practice it, that think of it as, like, some sort of brutal endeavor for, you know, macho brutes, assholes.

   23. MKMaynard James Keenan33:06

       Yeah, I mean, they're, but, you know, we know those guys.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       They exist.

   25. MKMaynard James Keenan33:09

       You know, they exist.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:09

       But they need to exercise, too. (laughs)

   27. MKMaynard James Keenan33:12

       Yeah. Yeah, they do. Uh, but, you know, it's, I think, um, that just that finding that thing that's actually challenging you physically, mentally, spiritually helps with other things that come along 'cause there's, you know, the world's weird right now. There's, there's things, (laughs) I don't know, I feel like that we're, we're helping train people to understand that the world goes through a lot of changes. There's gonna be a lot of stress. Nobody's gonna, uh, 90% of the people of the world are not gonna agree with you, and if you can get through that mentally and emotionally and spiritually to know that there's something on the other side.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:53

       Yeah.

   29. MKMaynard James Keenan33:53

       I think things like jujitsu, things like growing food, uh, gr- resigning yourself to nature and having to navigate farming, those kind of things, they start to reset you in a way where, like, it's not this, not everything has to be an argument.

   30. JRJoe Rogan34:09

       Mm-hmm.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   So when you're listening…

   1. MKMaynard James Keenan45:00

      three-dimensional, geometric puzzle. It's true.

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:03

      So when you're listening to it and you're just, like, going over it in your head, you're just, like, allowing it to talk to you?

   3. MKMaynard James Keenan45:09

      Correct. Correct. You know-

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:11

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MKMaynard James Keenan45:11

      ... just like we were going over today with Danaher, like ...

   6. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MKMaynard James Keenan45:13

      "Okay, we're in this position, but did the guy retract his elbow or did he leave his elbow forward?"

   8. JRJoe Rogan45:18

      Mm.

   9. MKMaynard James Keenan45:18

      Is the riff giving me an elbow? Is there ... Or is the-

   10. JRJoe Rogan45:22

       Mm.

   11. MKMaynard James Keenan45:22

       Is the riff cutting me off on a particular rhythm or a melody? 'Cause, you know, you might have a melody in mind, but you get closer to the end of that riff and it might have changed directions, then your note is sour. So you have to pay attention to what note goes with that thing, and rhythmically as well as sonically, like, you know, melodically.

   12. JRJoe Rogan45:41

       Mm.

   13. MKMaynard James Keenan45:42

       So it's a ... It's you getting used to this thing, 'cause ... And he might be able to move it. I might go back, "Hey man, can we, can we adjust a few things in here and move forward?" So it is definitely a step-by-step piece. I will respond. Then he will give me back a thing that he's developed further, and I will respond to his response. And then at some point, I'll go to Karina and go, "Hey, I'd like to hear ... Before I go too far, I wanna hear what you would do over what I've done, over what he's done." And now, it's a tryout of, of us, uh, navigating, uh, that sonic landscape.

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:22

       So it, it, it must be an interesting dance in that you have to do it with people that have sort of the same engagement that you do, the same level of discipline, the same-

   15. MKMaynard James Keenan46:32

       Same level of discipline, but strengths where I don't have strengths, I have strengths where they don't have strengths. So you're ... It's, it's ... You're kind of, you're kind of filling in each other's gaps with a common goal.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       Mm.

   17. MKMaynard James Keenan46:46

       So yeah, so we have ... We had d- We definitely have common things that we like, but we also bring different strengths to the table to make it work as a whole.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:54

       That's one of the more challenging things, I would imagine, about a band, is that you kinda have to get everybody on the same, p- sort of-

   19. MKMaynard James Keenan47:04

       You have to remain ope- Your, your listening skills are ... Should be as important and as honed as your regurgitating skills. "I'm successful and this is what I do. Fuck you." No. Then it just sounds ... Starts sounding the same.

   20. JRJoe Rogan47:20

       Mm.

   21. MKMaynard James Keenan47:21

       You're n- You're not really ... You're not progressing as an artist till I kinda reinvent yourself and see things from a different perspective.

   22. JRJoe Rogan47:28

       Do you s-

   23. MKMaynard James Keenan47:28

       My opinion.

   24. JRJoe Rogan47:30

       Do you see this, like, uh, d- this process Does it ... Do you see this process clear, more clearly now than you did years ago? Like, is this something that you get better at?

   25. MKMaynard James Keenan47:41

       Oh, yeah, like anything. It just it's ... You, you, you get better. I think you just get better at listening the more you listen. And I've ... You know, it's like, it's like anything. There's a, there's a, an action/reaction, and then there's ... there's some kind of reinforcement of that behavior, right? I found that when I started listening more and reacting more as a listener, the, the reinforcement of that behavior was that there was a better thing that came out the other end, rather than just sounding like something I'd already done before jammed over something that somebody else has already done before. So you reinvent.

   26. JRJoe Rogan48:20

       Mm.

   27. MKMaynard James Keenan48:21

       And then the behavior is reinforced because th- thing ... Not, not from somebody externally, but, like, from the thing that you're hearing, you go, "I've never heard me do that before. Great."... keep honing that knife.

   28. JRJoe Rogan48:37

       How long can you do that for?

   29. MKMaynard James Keenan48:39

       Ever.

   30. JRJoe Rogan48:40

       Forever?
5. 1:00:00 – 1:15:00

   But it's pretty wild.…

   1. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:00

      But it's pretty wild. But it's that thing. It's like speaks to that struggle.

   3. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:03

      I will definitely watch that one. Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:04

      Yeah. It's like, you know, you assume that Justin Bieber's just that fucking guy that sings like a girl. You know like he s- sound like ... First j- heard Justin Bieber, like what a beautiful voice that girl has. And then I'm like, that's a guy. I'm like, "Oh. What? Oh, he's young. Oh, okay." And then you know, he matures over time.

   5. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:22

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:22

      And he becomes this different thing. It's like, but it's still a human.

   7. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:25

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:25

      You know? Like if he wanted to go see a Pussifer show, I could imagine you'd be like, (inhales deeply) "What?"

   9. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:31

      He would be welcome.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:32

       Sure. Sure.

   11. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:33

       Yeah. I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't ever say those people can't come to my ... You know, I would be happy to entertain. I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm an asshole but not that kind of an asshole.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:42

       You're not a snob.

   13. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:43

       I'm not a snob, no. Yep, yep, 100% welcome to come to those things. But, uh-... yeah, I wouldn't exclude anybody from that. Art, it's art.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

       Yeah.

   15. MKMaynard James Keenan1:00:52

       You know? There might, something might resonate with them that would end up showing up in something that they did next, right? Um, we all, artists all feed off each other in some way. There's like, I'm inspired by a bunch of different films, TV shows, bands.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

       Mm. For sure.

   17. MKMaynard James Keenan1:01:12

       You know, visual artists. You know, those things inspire me and they get me thinking on, you know, the next thing that I'm gonna do, and how do I build on that and make it make sense?

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

       Well, music is inspirational in such a weird way too. It's like a drug, you know? Like Prison Sex, that song, there's something about that song that makes me wanna lift. Like when I'm lifting weights, that song is just like, the guitar riff, it's just fucking wahhh. It just like gives you extra juice.

   19. MKMaynard James Keenan1:01:39

       Okay.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:39

       You know? There's something about music that it provides like, it opens up (snaps fingers) a specific pathway in you that it, it, it's like a drug. It really is. It's an amazing drug of inspiration.

   21. MKMaynard James Keenan1:01:52

       And it's, and it can be a, it's a neural map-

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:57

       Mm.

   23. MKMaynard James Keenan1:01:58

       ... in a way that opens up that ins- whatever that is you're getting, there's a rhythm and a tone to that thing that's inspiring those myelin connections in you to do the, do a thing. I c- I could see that.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

       Yeah.

   25. MKMaynard James Keenan1:02:12

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:12

       Yeah. And also it speaks to, especially like older music is like a time map. It's like a map of the culture when that song was created, who this person is, how they fit into the culture, whether or not they're around anymore.

   27. MKMaynard James Keenan1:02:27

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:27

       Like, whenever I listen to Hendrix in particular, it's like Hendrix to me is like a map of the '60s in a lot of ways.

   29. MKMaynard James Keenan1:02:34

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:34

       It's like the rebellion from the Vietnam era.
6. 1:15:00 – 1:15:40

   (clicks tongue) Well, it's a…

   1. MKMaynard James Keenan1:15:00

      I don't have the words... libertarian or, you know, cent- whatever. But you've got, you've got a mix of everybody here, and they've managed to get along and not kill each other.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:15:09

      (clicks tongue) Well, it's a good combination of a blue city and a red state, which is kind of my favorite.

   3. MKMaynard James Keenan1:15:15

      Right.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:15:15

      It's like open-mindedness and progressive, but yet surrounded by people with guns who farm. (laughs)

   5. MKMaynard James Keenan1:15:22

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15:24

      You know? Ranchers.

   7. MKMaynard James Keenan1:15:24

      Yeah, and that's kinda, and, and that's kind of what we have kind of up in, like in Jerome, uh, Sedona area. It's, it's very much that mix.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:15:32

      Yeah.

   9. MKMaynard James Keenan1:15:32

      Um, but, you know, it's, it's a... I don't know, I've just, I've al- I've always had a thing for Austin. I just like coming here. It's, it's that town.

Episode duration: 2:53:43