Joe Rogan Experience #1912 - Steven Rinella

1. 0:00 – 0:37

   FTX fallout and why scam stories fascinate people

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

   3. SRSteven Rinella0:14

      I don't know what it ... I don't ... You know, and then when this FTX thing happened, I'm like, "Of course."

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      Yeah.

   5. SRSteven Rinella0:18

      Of course, you fucking scumbags.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      I've become obsessed with that shit, man.

   7. SRSteven Rinella0:21

      Oh my God, man. That's-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      I just, like, 'cause I, I'm already imagining like the fucking, how many people are writing that fucking screenplay right now.

   9. SRSteven Rinella0:27

      Are we w- are we up running?

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:29

       (laughs)

   11. SRSteven Rinella0:29

       Let's, let's go. We're rolling? Good. Let's talk about this. Yeah. I'm, I'm fascinated by it. I, I'm fascinated by scammers.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       Mm-hmm.

2. 0:37 – 3:32

   Pool-hall era fraud: “International Sal” and old-school credit card schemes

   1. SRSteven Rinella0:37

      You know, I'm, uh, I, I knew a lot of, uh, scammers in my pool hall days. I knew a lot of, uh ... I knew a guy that was, uh, one of the first guys that ever was involved in credit card fraud.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:47

      Hmm.

   3. SRSteven Rinella0:48

      Back in like the early '80s. His name was International Sal. He was a fucking character, like a real character.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:55

      Sal?

   5. SRSteven Rinella0:56

      Sal. International Sal, that's what they called him, because he was, uh, he was like a m- like a mob guy, essentially. And what they would do is they would go to grocery stor- or, um, department stores rather, and you know they had those carbons when you would ... y- in the old days with credit cards. They would pshh, pshh, pshh.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:11

      Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

   7. SRSteven Rinella1:12

      They would take those carbons, and someone would sell him the carbons, and then they would print copies of credit cards, and then they would buy a bunch of shit.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:21

      Oh.

   9. SRSteven Rinella1:21

      And then they would sell that shit, and they would come to him with bags of money to the pool hall.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       (laughs)

   11. SRSteven Rinella1:26

       And then ... (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:27

       It's a good idea.

   13. SRSteven Rinella1:28

       And he would blow it all. He would blow it all. It's, it's like we always talked about it. It's like it's, he, he had dirty money, and he couldn't keep it. It's like he was ... He couldn't win. Like he could not win. Like if the nine ball was four inches in front of the hole, he would find a way to dog it.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:45

       Oh, like the cosmos knew that the money was no good.

   15. SRSteven Rinella1:47

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was something. It was like, "Is it in his head?"

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       (laughs)

   17. SRSteven Rinella1:51

       He had the worst case of buck fever I've ever seen in my fucking life.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:55

       (laughs)

   19. SRSteven Rinella1:55

       It was just like ... Yeah. It's like ...

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:57

       He's got like the devil and the angel on his shoulders, and the angel's giving him, like the angels give him advice.

   21. SRSteven Rinella2:02

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       You know, so he loses money. (laughs)

   23. SRSteven Rinella2:04

       And he was a good guy. He was a good guy. He just, his l- he just came from a life of crime, but he was a good guy. It's weird, like-

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:14

       Do you know, I, I wonder what his last name was because there's a, we were, we were looking up people with our last name, and we found a Sal Rinella in Joliet Prison.

   25. SRSteven Rinella2:22

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:22

       And I just ... I liked how much it sounded like salmonella, you know? (laughs)

   27. SRSteven Rinella2:28

       (laughs) Yeah, I don't know wh- uh, he died of cancer a few years back, and, uh, actually a friend of mine's mom who worked in, um, you know, like a, I guess it's a hospice when they, they take care of people in their, their dying days.

   28. JRJoe Rogan2:41

       Yeah.

   29. SRSteven Rinella2:41

       And he came into there, and, uh, my friend contacted me. He goes, "Guess who's in, uh, the hospice? It's International Sal." I'm like, "Oh."

   30. JRJoe Rogan2:47

       No.
3. 3:32 – 5:19

   Retail theft, looting, and policy incentives during the pandemic era

   1. SRSteven Rinella3:32

      Some people just, you know, they just do it, but they're like, "Well, there's gotta be a way to, like, balance this out." Did you hear that Target lost ... What was it, Jamie? Like $400 million last year from looting? 400 million.

   2. JRJoe Rogan3:45

      Really?

   3. SRSteven Rinella3:46

      Yeah, because a- all these people in the last year or so, just d- during the pandemic, people were, like, stealing shit. You know? Became a thing-

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:53

      Wow.

   5. SRSteven Rinella3:53

      ... like in, in some states-

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:55

      I had no idea it was that bad.

   7. SRSteven Rinella3:56

      It's bad. In some states, they've closed down all the Walgreens. They've closed down all these different ... Because they made a law where if you steal less than $900 worth of stuff, they can't even arrest you. They don't even do anything about it. So people would just walk in ... Uh, you ever seen those videos?

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:12

      No. Well, I've seen the videos. I didn't know about y- I didn't know about them being prompted by ... I didn't know that that activity being inspired by particular rules as much as just, like, a breakdown of, you know, I don't know, like a breakdown of desire, like for a while, like a desire to, to engage with certain kinds of lawbreaking.

   9. SRSteven Rinella4:35

      Well, it was, there was that, and then there was also, I think, after the George and during the George Floyd protest, organized retail crime has driven $400 million in extra profit loss this year to Target.

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:47

       Wow.

   11. SRSteven Rinella4:47

       That is cra- and organized. Um, you know, there was, d- during the George Floyd protests, there was so many, so much looting. I don't know if you saw the, the stuff in New York. It was crazy.

   12. JRJoe Rogan4:57

       Oh, for sure. Yeah.

   13. SRSteven Rinella4:58

       Where the cops were standing by. They were just standing there watching them smash windows and run into stores. And that was that de Blasio guy, the, like super leftist-

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:07

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. SRSteven Rinella5:07

       ... mayor of New York, just kind of allowed it all to happen. And th- it's like, it's based apparently on an old theory about rioting where you just let them burn it out of their system.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:16

       (laughs)

   17. SRSteven Rinella5:17

       You know, have a temper tantrum. (laughs)

4. 5:19 – 7:07

   Governance by theory vs. pragmatic problem-solving

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:19

      I think that so much is, there's a lot of, uh ... This isn't just, uh, you know, I didn't make this up, but there's a lot of governance by theory, you know, going on.

   2. SRSteven Rinella5:32

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:32

      Where it's like, it sort of in- in ... You know, a lot of people are left to be like, "Well hold on a minute, that doesn't make any sense." (laughs) You know.

   4. SRSteven Rinella5:37

      (laughs) Well you gotta think who these people are.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:39

      But it's a, it's a theory though, right? (laughs)

   6. SRSteven Rinella5:40

      Who these people are that wanna be mayors and wanna be governors. Like they're, they're a bunch of loony people for the most part.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:46

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SRSteven Rinella5:46

      And there's not a lot of competition. There's not a lot of like super rational, really, like, well-educated, super successful in business people that wind up becoming governors and mayors.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:59

      Yeah.

   10. SRSteven Rinella5:59

       Which is probably what you would need to be. You'd need to be someone who's like really good at organizing business. And there was a guy that was running in New York, and apparently he got really close and he was ahead in the race for a while, but then he wound up losing.... to some woman who's, uh, the new mayor of Los An- was it Karen Bass? So.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:15

       I just heard a guy saying that that's the politicians that are gonna win now. He was a strategist, a Republican strategist, and he was saying that the, his prediction was it was gonna be like the technocrats.

   12. SRSteven Rinella6:26

       Mm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:27

       The people were getting... I don't know where he's getting this from, but it made me feel optimistic that people are getting more interested in, like, um, the, the... His view of the midterms is that voters are getting interested in, in, like, pragmatic problem solving again.

   14. SRSteven Rinella6:42

       Mm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:43

       And not ideology.

   16. SRSteven Rinella6:45

       Well, once ideology-

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:46

       We'll see.

   18. SRSteven Rinella6:46

       ... comes crashing back on you and falls apart and your business collapses, and... That's what you're seeing with a lot of people. It's, like, just the, the, just the reality facing them-

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:57

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SRSteven Rinella6:57

       ... where their ideology's not sustainable. And then they're like, "Jesus Christ, like, I'm, I've lost everything here. We gotta get somebody who's, like, a, some fucking hard-nosed businessperson."

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:05

       Yep.

   22. SRSteven Rinella7:05

       "Who's gonna get everything running correctly."

5. 7:07 – 10:25

   Austin 911 hold story and a broader sense of societal breakdown

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:07

      I had an interesting thing happen to me right here in Austin the other day, speaking of law enforcement. I, uh, I was down here for a couple days with my... It was my daughter's birthday, so my wife and my daughter came down with me and we spent a couple days just knocking around town. And we went down to check out those bats.

   2. SRSteven Rinella7:24

      Oh.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:24

      That come out of the-

   4. SRSteven Rinella7:25

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:25

      ... what, Congress? Bridge?

   6. SRSteven Rinella7:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:27

      Oh my God, it's cool.

   8. SRSteven Rinella7:27

      It's wild.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:29

      We were walking down there and I become aware (laughs) , we're going down the sidewalk and I become aware of, like, all this honking and yelling and shit at an intersection. And as I'm... I'm walking up to a car and there's a woman, like honking and yelling and she's pointing into the car. And I go and realize there's a guy, like, uh, I thought he had a heart attack, just keeled over the steering wheel in the intersection, okay? So, he had his back window down, like halfway down for whatever reason. And I'm in there and I got him by the shoulder and I'm trying to-

   10. SRSteven Rinella8:04

       Oh, wow.

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:04

       ... shake him awake, okay? And I think he's had a heart attack or died, I don't know what the, what he's got going on. I'm yelling at my wife, "Call 911." Um, I'm trying to get his door open, but his doors are locked, and I'm trying to reach up to hit the unlock button, 'cause the thing's only half open. And me yelling and saying, "You all right? You all right?" He perks up. (laughs) And like, takes stock of the situation and just goes off through the green light. So now I feel like I'm, like, compli- uh, not complicit, but I feel like it's, like, become my responsibility that he's gonna, I don't know, he's gonna die, kill somebody. I call 911, or my wife had already called 911. She got sick of waiting on hold and gave me the phone.

   12. SRSteven Rinella8:47

       (sighs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:47

       She went in to try to find... She had left my daughter's swimsuit somewhere. She went (laughs) and tried to find my daughter's swimsuit. I waited, waited, waited, she came out. I was still on hold and I was like, "Ah, he's gone now. It's just someone else's problem."

   14. SRSteven Rinella8:58

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       I never had that happen to me. I'm not like a habitual 911 dialer (laughs) , but...

   16. SRSteven Rinella9:03

       911 is, uh, a- apparently in a lot of places it's not that good anymore.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:10

       (laughs) I was, I mean... (laughs) I was shocked.

   18. SRSteven Rinella9:14

       How long did it take? How long was she on hold for?

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:16

       Man, I wanna say 10 minutes, but I don't... I don't know, I don't wanna exam- I wasn't really paying att- I was kind of pre- I, I didn't, wasn't really watching it, I was l- little bit preoccupied. But, like, a long time, you know? (laughs)

   20. SRSteven Rinella9:29

       God, that's depressing. That's so depressing. There's never been a time in my life where I've felt like things have broken down as much as they have over the last three years.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:37

       Yeah, yeah. It's scary.

   22. SRSteven Rinella9:38

       What the fuck? Like... And the thing about things breaking down is, boy, they can break down quick, but building them back up again? That takes a long time.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:47

       Yeah.

   24. SRSteven Rinella9:48

       That takes a long time.

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:49

       You'll be able to see that play out in Ukraine at some point in time.

   26. SRSteven Rinella9:52

       Yeah, for sure.

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:54

       Yeah.

   28. SRSteven Rinella9:54

       I mean, those fucking buildings that are destroyed too.

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:57

       Oh, man.

   30. SRSteven Rinella9:57

       Like, how do they rebuild? They have cities that are just completely leveled.
6. 10:25 – 14:51

   China, AI, and “The Kill Chain”: tech integration as national security risk

   1. SRSteven Rinella10:25

      (exhales) I'm reading a terrible book about this too.

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:29

      (laughs) What is this-

   3. SRSteven Rinella10:29

      I'm in the middle of this book called The Kill Chain. It's all about, uh, how China has, uh, a technological superiority over America because our systems don't communicate with each other and we don't have machine learning with all our military systems, and-

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:43

      Got it.

   5. SRSteven Rinella10:43

      ... how far behind they are in terms of, uh, like, what's available in term- in, in, like, what they have available in terms of, like, artificial int- They're, they're, they're comparing right now, like, computers now that can beat people in the game Go, which I don't really understand, but apparently it's very sophisticated. And also StarCraft II, which is a very complicated game. And now computers are just wiping out the best players in the world and not making any mistakes, and, and how that kind of computer learning is being applied in China, but it's not being applied in America.

   6. JRJoe Rogan11:17

      Hmm.

   7. SRSteven Rinella11:17

      And that all of our systems are kind of antiquated, in that we update hardware first and then software. So, like, we don't have... Like, you know how your phone is constantly upgrading? They're comparing that, like, you're, you're f- with, with, when, and when they learn new things and they find exploits and they patch them up, you get an update on your phone.

   8. JRJoe Rogan11:35

      Yeah.

   9. SRSteven Rinella11:35

      They don't have that. So it's like they, they're really fucked in terms of the... Also, the military branches' ability to communicate with other military branches. They essentially have to call each other. It's, like, it's not, it's not-

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:48

       What's the book?

   11. SRSteven Rinella11:49

       It's called The Kill Chain.

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:51

       Huh.

   13. SRSteven Rinella11:51

       It's not good. The Kill Chain is a, it refers to systems, like, you know, like, that they're, these systems have to work in conjunction with each other in order to be successful.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:01

       Sure, yeah.

   15. SRSteven Rinella12:01

       And that, this, this, this thesis of this book is that it's not, they don't work together at all, and that it's very bad. And that if we do wind up in some sort of a real large international conflict, we're, we're kind of fucked.

   16. JRJoe Rogan12:16

       Hmm.

   17. SRSteven Rinella12:16

       It's very depressing in how China has been working, like, towards this goal for a long time, and they have the advantage of their government completely controls all of their businesses. So, the businesses only work within the interest of the Chinese government.

   18. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       Yeah.

   19. SRSteven Rinella12:34

       More depression.

   20. JRJoe Rogan12:35

       You know, sounds like... I'm reading a book called, um, Rising Wolf: The White Blackfoot. (laughs)

   21. SRSteven Rinella12:40

       What is that?

   22. JRJoe Rogan12:42

       It's... I first, uh... Oh, it's a book about this kid. It's a book about this kid in the 1700s that, uh, well, I'm sorry, 1800s that came out with the Hudson Bay Company up into the vicinity of Calgary and then was assigned out to the Blackfeet, and the Blackfeet took him south, and he, and it, he just wrote his chronicles spending a bunch of time with the Blackfeet.

   23. SRSteven Rinella13:11

       Oh, wow.

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:12

       Oh, it's fascinating, dude. And before I read it, I contacted our mutual friend, Dan Flores, to see if he was on the up and up 'cause I've read historic accounts that later Dan would be like, "Eh, that guy played a little fast and loose with the, with the reality."

   25. SRSteven Rinella13:28

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:28

       But he was saying that this guy checks out. Like, his, his account is regarded by historians to be fairly accurate.

   27. SRSteven Rinella13:34

       Wouldn't that be one of the... There it is right there. Wow, look at these guys.

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:37

       Wow, that's him.

   29. SRSteven Rinella13:39

       Could you imagine living back then, man?

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:41

       No, it's a-
7. 14:51 – 31:19

   Media, Twitter files, and the attention economy (Slack, AI deepfakes, and FTX irony)

   1. SRSteven Rinella14:51

      The elections are fascinating to me 'cause I don't particularly have an opinion about election fraud, but I do have opinion on fraud, and it always exists.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SRSteven Rinella15:01

      There's always been people that are full of shit that are manipulating things and saying that they're not, and we're finding this out now with Twitter, now that Elon Musk purchased Twitter.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SRSteven Rinella15:10

      And he's finding that, you know, they, they literally had FBI people embedded in Twitter that were holding back information from him. Like, there was a guy that he fired that e- was an FBI guy that worked for the FBI at one point in time and now was one of the head guys at Twitter and was withholding information from him while he was trying to release information about... A- allegedly, I think it's, I should say allegedly so I don't get in trouble here with this. But th- what the, the, the, what he was saying essentially is this person was a bottleneck to releasing this data-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:44

      Yeah.

   7. SRSteven Rinella15:44

      ... where they were trying to find out, like, why did President Trump get banned, you know, what was going on in terms of shadow banning conservative people, and w- how much, how much coordination was going on inside the company to try to suppress certain ideologies-

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:59

      Yo, yeah, yeah.

   9. SRSteven Rinella15:59

      ... and magnify other ones, and it's pretty stunning.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:03

       I'd be curio- uh, I'm curious how much of that stuff's in there, how hard it is to find, and how much people were just being more discreet with text messages and phone calls.

   11. SRSteven Rinella16:14

       Yeah, there's probably a lot of that. But, you know, I think with corporations, they tend to do things on Slack, you know, that, that they have an internal messaging system.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:22

       Oh, yeah. I know what's Slack, yeah.

   13. SRSteven Rinella16:23

       So-

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       I don't use it, but I know about it.

   15. SRSteven Rinella16:25

       But I think-

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:25

       Yeah.

   17. SRSteven Rinella16:26

       I think it's all recorded, unfortunately, for them.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:28

       I'm the only person in m- I'm the, I'm the only person in my company that doesn't use Slack. Drives everybody crazy.

   19. SRSteven Rinella16:32

       (laughs) Like-

   20. JRJoe Rogan16:32

       I'm always just, like, I feel like there's, like, so many ways to get ahold of me.

   21. SRSteven Rinella16:35

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan16:35

       (laughs) I don't need, like, a fourth one.

   23. SRSteven Rinella16:37

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:38

       Like, you email me. You call me. You text me. Now I gotta have another one? (laughs)

   25. SRSteven Rinella16:41

       Knock on your door. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:43

       I didn't even... Wouldn't even count that.

   27. SRSteven Rinella16:45

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan16:46

       It's just like, holy shit, man.

   29. SRSteven Rinella16:47

       If I ever get to the point where this podcast has Slack, I'm gonna sell it.

   30. JRJoe Rogan16:50

       You and Jamie can Slack all day? (laughs)
8. 31:19 – 47:20

   Outrage culture and context collapse: the Apple exec fired for quoting a movie

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:19

      What's your take on, um... I was, I read a piece the other day in the Journal. It was about a executive at Apple, an Apple executive who's a-

   2. SRSteven Rinella31:29

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan31:29

      ... car enthusiast.

   4. SRSteven Rinella31:30

      Yeah, I know that.

   5. JRJoe Rogan31:30

      Have you already talked about this?

   6. SRSteven Rinella31:31

      No. No, we haven't. But yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan31:33

      So, there's a, there's a TikToker whose shtick is that he'll a- he'll catch people in luxury cars, I gather, noteworthy cars, and his thing is like, "Hey, what do you do for a living?" He approaches an Apple executive, who h- uh, this, the detail that matters to me the most is that the guy's with his wife. He's not at a work function and he's with his wife, which totally changes what he's, how he answers.

   8. SRSteven Rinella31:57

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:57

      He's with his wife, and he decides to quote a movie that's becoming increasingly obscure as the years go by, which is the movie Arthur, which was, like, a comedy about a drunk. Who was that? Di- di-

   10. SRSteven Rinella32:10

       Dudley Moore.

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:10

       Okay, Dudley Moore, yeah.

   12. SRSteven Rinella32:11

       1981.

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:12

       Okay. And he says-

   14. SRSteven Rinella32:13

       I think it was '81.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:14

       Someone says, "What do you do for a living?" And he said... He's trying to be funny and he quotes Arthur.

   16. SRSteven Rinella32:19

       Let's play it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan32:19

       Oh, here we go.

   18. SRSteven Rinella32:20

       Here we go. My name is Austin. What do you do for a living? (laughs) I race cars, play golf, and fondle big-breasted women. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       (laughs)

   20. SRSteven Rinella32:27

       But I take weekends and major holidays off. Okay. (laughs)

   21. NANarrator32:31

       (laughs)

   22. SRSteven Rinella32:31

       That is quite the career. I'm looking to get into that. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan32:33

       His wife is laughing.

   24. SRSteven Rinella32:34

       Also, if you're interested, I got a hell of a dental plan. Okay. (laughs)

   25. NANarrator32:37

       (laughs)

   26. SRSteven Rinella32:37

       You do it all. You do it all. Yeah. And you participate in this activity? (laughs) His wife is laughing hilariously, like, she thinks it's funny.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:46

       Anyways, that guy's job ain't no more. (laughs)

   28. SRSteven Rinella32:48

       Yeah, they fired him for that.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:50

       And I was... And I was, I was trying to explain it to my wife the other day and, and, uh... You know what, though? I was trying to explain it to her, um, in the aftermath of my 911 incident here in Austin, so I, we, I didn't get her full take on it. (laughs)

   30. SRSteven Rinella33:02

       It's pretty... Apple exec who was fired after being caught on video joking about fondling big-breasted women said he stayed up all night trying to get the TikTok down before it went viral.
9. 47:20 – 51:49

   OJ Simpson, celebrity justice, and policing reform beyond ‘defund’ slogans

   1. JRJoe Rogan47:20

      Dude, that big ESPN documentary was phenomenal, man.

   2. SRSteven Rinella47:24

      On him?

   3. JRJoe Rogan47:24

      Yeah.

   4. SRSteven Rinella47:25

      I never saw it.

   5. JRJoe Rogan47:26

      Really?

   6. SRSteven Rinella47:26

      No.

   7. JRJoe Rogan47:26

      Made in America?

   8. SRSteven Rinella47:27

      No, I never saw it.

   9. JRJoe Rogan47:28

      You didn't watch that?

   10. SRSteven Rinella47:28

       No.

   11. JRJoe Rogan47:30

       Dude, that documentary, my god, it's good. It's long. It's a real commitment. That documentary starts out talking about, like, LA, okay, the layout of LA, and the different neighborhoods, and where the sports stadium is located. And you're like, "How in the world are these people gonna bring this home in a OJ documentary?" And holy shit, do they?

   12. SRSteven Rinella47:57

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan47:57

       I mean, it is... If you wanna understand... I'm gonna say ... if you wanna greatly enhance your understanding of money, celebrity, uh, justice in America, Made in America is phenomenal.

   14. SRSteven Rinella48:14

       Hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan48:15

       It's good.

   16. SRSteven Rinella48:16

       Okay.

   17. JRJoe Rogan48:16

       I feel like you'd like it the most.

   18. SRSteven Rinella48:17

       I'll check it out. I didn't even know it existed.

   19. JRJoe Rogan48:20

       Oh, yeah, it's unbelievable.

   20. SRSteven Rinella48:21

       Yeah, I never heard of it. It's just-

   21. JRJoe Rogan48:23

       It's unbelievable.

   22. SRSteven Rinella48:23

       ... interesting.

   23. JRJoe Rogan48:23

       And I'm sitting here thinking, "Man, these guys are losing a lot of viewers right now." When it, when it began (laughs) 'cause I thought people were like, "I want the part about the blood."

   24. SRSteven Rinella48:31

       There it is.

   25. JRJoe Rogan48:32

       Yeah.

   26. SRSteven Rinella48:33

       Best documentary feature.

   27. JRJoe Rogan48:35

       OJ Made in America.

   28. SRSteven Rinella48:36

       Uh, can you remember where you were when you f- when they read the verdict?

   29. JRJoe Rogan48:40

       Oh, yeah. I remember where I was when they read the verdict, and I remember where I was during the car chase.

   30. SRSteven Rinella48:45

       Oh, yeah.
10. 51:49 – 1:09:50

    Lived experience vs. media reality: bias, fear, and unequal policing outcomes

    1. JRJoe Rogan51:49

       I think that as I've, as I've looked at what's happened to public perception of police officers over the last few years, it reminds me of, of, of a similar thing I feel about, um, the polarity in America, where you have your experience, you have your lived experience, okay? And then you have the experience that you understand to be true from the news. So from the news, you understand that we're in this period of tremendous divisiveness and, and, um, A-America's splitting apart at the seams. No one wants to engage anymore, in a civil function. E-Everything's, we're, we're perched on the edge of violence, okay? You get that, but then you analyze what is going on in your life as you go about your life, like having a job, raising kids, engaging with the, the, the public school professionals where your kids go, traveling around the country, riding with, uh, w- with Uber drivers, deal- dealing with whoever, okay? And you'd, you'd be like, you, if someone wasn't telling you it was happening, you wouldn't know that it's happening.

    2. SRSteven Rinella53:05

       Right.

    3. JRJoe Rogan53:07

       This is a very personal experience for me. I wouldn't know. I would think that, that, that it was, that we were still having this kind of like, um, uh, uh, uh, an experience of, of, um, American mutual respect a-across a bunch of different things, like that's my experience. Same thing, I grew up where if you saw cops, you'd like turn the radio down, right? Or being like a little bit worried about game wardens 'cause you're probably doing something a little bit like you weren't supposed to do. Um, but now, uh, in dealing with many law enforcement officials I deal with either at work or otherwise, like I wouldn't see it.

    4. SRSteven Rinella53:47

       Yeah.

    5. JRJoe Rogan53:48

       I, I wouldn't see, I, I wouldn't see it that the profession was be called was, that the profession itself was being called into question.

    6. SRSteven Rinella53:55

       Hmm.

    7. JRJoe Rogan53:56

       You know? That there's-

    8. SRSteven Rinella53:56

       'Cause it's not your lived experience.

    9. JRJoe Rogan53:58

       Yeah, it's just like I don't, you know, I, I don't get it. And a lot of people will tell you, "Well, that's part of the problem because you ha- you know, you're, you're privileged in so many ways, so that's your experience." Which is funny to live in these, to live in these real- these like dual realities of what you understand to be occurring and then what you're seeing occurring.

    10. SRSteven Rinella54:13

        Hmm.

    11. JRJoe Rogan54:14

        You know?

    12. SRSteven Rinella54:15

        Yeah. Yeah, that is a problem. And it also, you're dealing with the problems that are occurring to millions and millions of people. In fact, billions all over the world. And the only thing that you read about is things that are bad.

    13. JRJoe Rogan54:30

        Yeah.

    14. SRSteven Rinella54:30

        That's a problem too. I always try to enforce that with people when they have opinions of police officers. I'm like, "Y- you know, 'cause there's so many videos of cops doing shady shit." I'm like, "Yes." There's bad people at every profession. Every fucking profession that exists is just 'cause some people just have poor character. They're just not good at what they do. But there's millions of interactions with cops and people every day, and nothing's, nothing goes wrong.... and they're fine, and peaceful, but you don't take that into account. So like, when you're making ... When you have an understanding of what's happening in the world, in terms of people and their interactions with police officers, it's very biased by the information that you've been subjected to, and that information is almost entirely negative, 'cause you're only v- dealing with the stuff that you see that's horrible, unless you've had personal experiences. And then, your personal experiences vary greatly, depending upon the color of your skin-

    15. JRJoe Rogan55:27

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SRSteven Rinella55:27

        ... and your economic situation, what part of the world you're living in. You know, I have friends that are Black, and they talk about getting pulled over, and they said, "I ... They are terrified."

    17. JRJoe Rogan55:36

        Yeah.

    18. SRSteven Rinella55:36

        They, they feel like they could get shot at any moment, where I have never experienced that. I'm always very respectful to the cops. I don't think they think ... Well, obviously, a lot of them know who I am, so that's not a problem too. But it's, it's very different for ... And to try to get, like, a balanced, nuanced perspective of our problem with police and policing and crime in this country, it's very difficult to be objective, especially if you've had a, a horrible, negative personal experience and/or a personal experience with someone that you're close to.

    19. JRJoe Rogan56:05

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SRSteven Rinella56:07

        It's a f- it's weird. It's an ... It's also ... This is also an information issue, 'cause you're, you're juggling so much information. You have so much data to process and to try to put it all together and have a, a nuanced, objective analysis of what it really is.

    21. JRJoe Rogan56:25

        Uh, one time, I was at a ... I was in New York, and I was going to a meeting with some, uh ... There was these, these restaurant owners, fairly high-profile restaurant owners, and they were looking to this, this book project about their restaurant. And, uh, I was not quite an ... I wasn't a totally established writer at the time, and I wa- and I was interested in doing this work for them. Uh, my agent set me up to have dinner with them. I'm going through a Subway, and I didn't know th- about the knife rules in New York City. I had, uh, as I do now, I have a pocketknife clipped to my, um, pocket, so the clip's out, and the knife's in. And I realized there was this, kinda this bum sorta, like, walking real close to me, and I look at him kinda like, "What the fuck?" You know? And he flashes a badge at me, and he takes me into this little room down in the Subway system in New York.

    22. SRSteven Rinella57:26

        A bum, so a fake bum?

    23. JRJoe Rogan57:28

        Fake bum.

    24. SRSteven Rinella57:28

        Whoa.

    25. JRJoe Rogan57:30

        And I get, um ... I had a l- my ... I had a l- an Alaska driver's license, um, so he's like ... asked me a bunch of questions about Palin.

    26. SRSteven Rinella57:41

        (laughs)

    27. JRJoe Rogan57:42

        (laughs) So, so I hung out with her. And then, he ... I get a cons- uh, concealed deadly ... I don't know, like, a de- d- They take my knife. I get a court date, and I can't remember what the, what the, uh ... I can't remember what the crime was. Something to do with, like, a deadly weapon, wielding. I don't know what the hell it was. It was, like, a real thing, right? And I get a court date, but I get let go. I don't get arrested. I get detained and let go, minus my knife, with a court date. I go to my meeting. I'm now late for my meeting. I go to my meeting, and it's a husband-and-wife team, financial partners in this restaurant stuff. I go like, "Hey, I'm late. Can you never guess what? And I got a ticket." He takes my ticket and goes into a back room. The dude's not in that back room five minutes, and he comes out and says, "You can tear that ticket away. You can tear that ticket up." And I go, "Really?" And he goes, "Yeah, it's done." And he goes, "But I mean, really, you need to pull that ticket out right now and tear it up," and it was over. So, uh ... Oh, here's an article I-

    28. SRSteven Rinella58:53

        Why did you need to tear it up?

    29. JRJoe Rogan58:55

        He didn't want me having it as a souvenir.

    30. SRSteven Rinella58:57

        Oh, wow.
11. 1:09:50 – 1:22:07

    Brittney Griner trade, Russian propaganda framing, and the censorship slippery slope

    1. SRSteven Rinella1:09:50

       With this, uh, Brittney Griner trade for that arms dealer scares the shit out of me.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:09:54

       Man, you know what's funny? Ugh. So, I had one pa- (laughs) I had one passive under- I had like one understanding of it where I'm like, "Oh, so she broke a rule." The rule seems like not that big of a deal.

    3. SRSteven Rinella1:10:12

       It's nothing.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:10:13

       But, you know, as my friend Chris recently said, "Rules is rules." So she, she breaks a rule, and then I'm like, "Holy shit, they're really, like, using her as a political pawn."

    5. SRSteven Rinella1:10:22

       Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:10:23

       And then they get her back with an arms dealer, traded an arms dealer, and you wonder about whether that's an asymmetrical, somehow an asymmetrical trade, but I don't know. I don't even know what's going on. And then you, and then you just, it's kinda like, "Oh, glad, glad she's back." And then you, and then talk about the outrage machine. Then you read like a narrative that'd be like, uh, "We traded, uh, international arms dealer..." What's his nickname? Dr. Death or some shit.

    7. SRSteven Rinella1:10:54

       Merchant of Death.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:10:55

       Merchant of Death, "for a dope smoker. We didn't get the Marine back. The person didn't want the national anthem played at their games." Right? And you go like, "Oh, there's a, there's a narrative that I..." You know what I mean?

    9. SRSteven Rinella1:11:10

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:11:10

        There's like a well-crafted narrative that I didn't put together.

    11. SRSteven Rinella1:11:13

        Have you ever seen Russia's take on it?

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:11:16

        No.

    13. SRSteven Rinella1:11:16

        Oh my God, it's, it's kinda crazy, 'cause it turned out that they offered one or the other. They offered either Paul Whelan, who was-

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:11:25

        Oh, really?

    15. SRSteven Rinella1:11:26

        ... the Marine. Yeah, or the-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:11:27

        That's what, that's what they're saying.

    17. SRSteven Rinella1:11:29

        ... the woman's de- Yeah, well that's what NBC was saying as well, and then they-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:11:31

        Really?

    19. SRSteven Rinella1:11:32

        ... they redacted it and changed their story, but yeah, that's-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:11:35

        Oh.

    21. SRSteven Rinella1:11:36

        Supposedly it was a one versus one. You could pick which one. And in Russia, there, there's this, uh, political show, sort of like a Fox News type show, where they're making f- See if you can find it, Jamie. I'll, I'll send it to you if you don't-

    22. NANarrator1:11:50

        Uh, uh-

    23. SRSteven Rinella1:11:50

        Do you know where it is?

    24. NANarrator1:11:51

        ... I, I, I'm trying to pull it up. It's just not, the link's not there.

    25. SRSteven Rinella1:11:53

        So the, um, in this, uh, thing, they're just completely mocking. Like, "Well, he, the one, you know, she, uh, he has one thing going against him. He is a man, and also, you know, he is white." Like here, "Meanwhile in Russia, top state propagandists reveal the narrative they'll be pushing to harm Biden and enrage Americans about the exchange of Brittney Griner for V- Viktor Bout by falsely claiming that it wasn't Russia's decision to oppose Whelan's release as opposed to Griner." So it's hard to say. Um, she, this person who's saying this is saying that, uh, it was Russia's decision to oppose Whelan's release, who they think was spying. Um, I don't know if he was or wasn't. He may have been, may have, uh, been arrested for espionage. But see if you can find the video 'cause it-

    26. NANarrator1:12:41

        But it's just, it's gonna be in Russian, so...

    27. SRSteven Rinella1:12:43

        Th- They don't have it? Um, no but it's, um, you see the, um, translation.

    28. NANarrator1:12:47

        I- Well, people are listening though, so-

    29. SRSteven Rinella1:12:49

        Yeah, but we'll translate it.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:12:49

        He's got a great point, Joe.

Episode duration: 3:23:33