Joe Rogan Experience #1938 - Mariana van Zeller

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. MZMariana van Zeller0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) And we're up.

   4. MZMariana van Zeller0:14

      Nice.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Hello.

   6. MZMariana van Zeller0:14

      Hi.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you again. What's happening?

   8. MZMariana van Zeller0:16

      Great to see you too.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Good to see you alive and well.

   10. MZMariana van Zeller0:19

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       You scare me sometimes-

   12. MZMariana van Zeller0:20

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       ... with your dangerous adventures, like real boots on the ground investigative journalism.

   14. MZMariana van Zeller0:25

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Oof.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller0:26

       We've been all over the world. Uh, I think last time I was here was two years ago?

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Yeah. Last time-

   18. MZMariana van Zeller0:31

       Two, two and a half, two years ago.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       ... you had just gotten back from the cocaine manufacturing-

   20. MZMariana van Zeller0:36

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:36

       ... in the jungle, which was wild.

   22. MZMariana van Zeller0:38

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       And then you took a backpack-

   24. MZMariana van Zeller0:40

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan0:40

       ... with the stuff and traveled-

   26. MZMariana van Zeller0:42

       Yep.

   27. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       ... with the-

   28. MZMariana van Zeller0:43

       That's right.

   29. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       Oof.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller0:44

       And since have reported on a lot other drugs and other crazy situations. And, uh, we're now doing s- actually already filming season four.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. …

   1. MZMariana van Zeller15:00

      of the episodes we have for the upcoming season is actually about hash because it's the first drug I tried when I was growing up-

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:05

      Yeah.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller15:05

      ... in Portugal. Um, but-

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:07

      It's decriminalized in Portugal, right?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller15:07

      It's decriminalized. Portugal has an amazing success story-

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:10

      Yes.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller15:11

      ... when it comes to drugs. It's pretty cool.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:12

      Well, that's part of the problem with illegality, right? When things are illegal-

   9. MZMariana van Zeller15:17

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan15:17

       ... only criminals are selling them. And then law-abiding people, you know-

   11. MZMariana van Zeller15:21

       That's right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan15:22

       ... are prohibited from taking them.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller15:23

       Mm-hmm. That's right.

   14. JRJoe Rogan15:24

       Which is, uh, it's, you know... Terence McKenna once famously said that freedom, uh, includes the freedom to explore your own consciousness.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller15:34

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan15:34

       And if you deny people that, you're, you're denying them a basic human right.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller15:37

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan15:38

       And I think he's right.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller15:39

       Yeah. Uh, I mean, one of the guys, uh, the people we interviewed was a former, um, um, uh, former military suffering from PTSD-

   20. JRJoe Rogan15:47

       Hmm.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller15:47

       ... a young kid who had been in, uh, Afghanistan, I believe. Yes, Afghanistan. And he was part of the bomb sniffing crew that goes-

   22. JRJoe Rogan15:57

       (exhales)

   23. MZMariana van Zeller15:58

       ... uh, I- looking for IEDs. And the car that he was in, actually, uh, there was an IED that exploded under him. But it was all protected so nothing happened to him. He suffered a concussion and was out for a few minutes and then was rescued. But there was still incoming shooting coming at him. It was like a whole situation and he was suffering from PTSD. And he wa- told us he was incapable and he tried everything, all the medication that, that, uh, was available for him by the traditional medical community and, uh, nothing was working. And he says he was having trouble waking up in the morning. He was suffering, again, from PTSD. And then he tried LSD and it changed, he says it's completely changed his life. Um, and he started doing LSD through, with a therapist, with somebody that, a sh- sha- shaman I guess.

   24. JRJoe Rogan16:45

       Shaman.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller16:45

       A shaman who, like, helps him. And we filmed one of his first sessions with the person.

   26. JRJoe Rogan16:49

       Mm-hmm.

   27. MZMariana van Zeller16:50

       Um, he had d- done it before, but it was one of the first sort of guided sessions. And, uh, it was fascinating to see. Um, and he's, yeah, he's now in school. And, uh, I'm not sure if his life is all perfectly fine, but he's doing much better according to him.

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:05

       Well, whose life is perfectly fine?

   29. MZMariana van Zeller17:07

       Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan17:07

       You know, it's life.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:00

      it was Percocets or Vicodin. I don't remember. But one of my first knee surgeries, they gave me, uh, one of those.

   2. MZMariana van Zeller30:05

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:05

      And I took it and I remember being on my couch when I lived in New York, and, uh, just sitting there watching TV like this, "Ugh."

   4. MZMariana van Zeller30:13

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      Feeling so stupid and thinking, "Oh my God, I am never taking this shit again."

   6. MZMariana van Zeller30:17

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:17

      Like, "Whatever this is doing to me ..." It ... First of all, I don't think it really stopped the pain, 'cause I remember getting up 'cause I had to go to the bathroom, and I was ... It was like liquid fire-

   8. MZMariana van Zeller30:27

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan30:27

      ... was going through my knee. And I was like, "If it still fucking hurts-"

   10. MZMariana van Zeller30:31

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:31

       "... like this and I'm dumb as shit-"

   12. MZMariana van Zeller30:32

       (laughs) Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:32

       "... like, I am not taking these anymore."

   14. MZMariana van Zeller30:35

       Yeah. I know. It's the, the ease with which they were dispensed and are still being dispensed to some degree.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:39

       My doctor was trying to force me to take them.

   16. MZMariana van Zeller30:42

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:42

       He was like, he was like, "Just ... You really should take these."

   18. MZMariana van Zeller30:45

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       "Like, you're gonna be in pain." I go, "Well, s- ... It's just p- ... a little pain."

   20. MZMariana van Zeller30:48

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:48

       Like, "Is it worse than this right now?" And he goes, "It could be." I'm like, "How could it get worse? Why is it gonna get worse?"

   22. MZMariana van Zeller30:54

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:54

       Like, if it doesn't ... If it just i- is mildly uncomfortable now. I'm like ... So the doctor was just like, "You should take this." And I was like, "Why would I take that?" But I don't ... I wasn't e- ... I didn't understand why.... like, I, like, couldn't I come back to you if I'm in pain? Like, if I'm not-

   24. MZMariana van Zeller31:09

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:09

       ... in pain now, why do you want me? It was this weird conversation where it was like, I don't know if he was incentivized to try, to try to prescribe them, if he felt like it would be good for him. I, I didn't, I didn't understand it. Like, couldn't you just... If you wrote the prescriptions and I didn't take it, like, what do you care? But he wanted me to take 'em.

   26. MZMariana van Zeller31:27

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:28

       It was weird.

   28. MZMariana van Zeller31:29

       So strange. I mean, that's what was happening with OxyContin, that's what was happening later on, we did another story on fentanyl, that was what-

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:35

       Ugh.

   30. MZMariana van Zeller31:35

       ... was happening with fentanyl too. You had a company, and, uh, that... We investigated one particular company and I think it's the only CEO of a company that... He's now in, in prison actually, for what he was doing. But yeah, he was bribing essentially, and he was charged with bribing. He was bribing doctors, and there was a quota and he was basically telling them, "If you prescribe more of our product..." Which was fentanyl, uh, a spr- a spray fentanyl called Sepsis. "If you prescribe more, we will give you more mo-" Uh, he, they were, they were, he was paying them up and take- taking them on trips, luxurious trips around the world and telling them, not only to prescribe this medication to people who have headaches and back pain-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Hmm. …

   1. MZMariana van Zeller45:00

      tokens, uh, which is not Bitcoin or Ethereum, it's another... It's, uh, more unregulated. And you have these tokens, and you can go and buy these tokens. And there's PR people that are out there sell- telling you that this is the new hottest token-

   2. JRJoe Rogan45:13

      Hmm.

   3. MZMariana van Zeller45:13

      ... and you're gonna, you can make money overnight. So, you build, you set out, you launch this Joe Rogan Token, you put some seed money on it. You start, you get a PR person to go out there and get celebrities, uh, you know, putting out social media posts about how this new Joe Rogan Token is the shit, and you should absolutely buy it. And people start buying it, and after a few weeks, they basically sell all their shares and the value, the price goes down. But they've, what they made, they invested, I don't know, like $100 and they've made millions of dollars. And so people are left with nothing.

   4. JRJoe Rogan45:46

      Yeah.

   5. MZMariana van Zeller45:46

      It's a rug pull. And these kids told us that they were making, you know, millions and millions of dollars. Um, and so, yeah, one of the biggest questions I had, "So what are you using, uh, how do you launder this money? How are you..." Because obviously ... And, I mean, they were flying private. They rented a huge mansion in Dubai. They were there for the Crypto Convention.

   6. JRJoe Rogan46:07

      Hmm.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller46:07

      And, uh, and yeah, they, they were investing heavily in real estate (laughs) and in other businesses. Um, restaurants-

   8. JRJoe Rogan46:16

      Hmm.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller46:16

      ... and businesses like that. It's really fascinating.

   10. JRJoe Rogan46:19

       Phew.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller46:20

       (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan46:20

       Yeah. That, the crypto market is very bizarre.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller46:23

       It's-

   14. JRJoe Rogan46:24

       You know, this whole, uh, FTX, um, thing with Sam Bankman-Fried.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller46:29

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan46:29

       I'm just fascinated by that.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller46:31

       Mm-hmm. Me too.

   18. JRJoe Rogan46:31

       Fascinated by it. And I was reading a thing today about the, the new CEO who was hired to untangle it.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller46:37

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan46:38

       And, and find out what was going on. And his d- depictions, uh, he said it was just 100% old-fashioned embezzlement.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller46:44

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan46:45

       And that these people, uh, d- had none of the fails- fail-safes and none of the protection that you would normally give to people investing their money. And they were just moving money around.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller46:56

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan46:56

       And they were all on speed.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller46:58

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan46:58

       And just-

   27. MZMariana van Zeller46:59

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan47:00

       ... uh, having sex with each other-

   29. MZMariana van Zeller47:01

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan47:01

       ... all together in this one house.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:09:52

   (sighs) …

   1. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:00

      So it's private, so it's just for them and their friends. Um, there are others that have parks, you know, a little bit like Doc Antle's Safari Park, where people can come and pay and visit the wild animals. Um, yeah, all sorts. And some people like to post it on Instagram, and or, or people pay to go and take selfies with these animals, which I'm still, I cannot believe that this is still a thing that happens today. People pay and want to take selfies with wild animals.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

      (sighs)

   3. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:28

      Very sad. Because it's incentivizing the trade is what it's doing.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:31

      Did, had you heard anything when you were in the Congo about those, uh, extraordinarily large chimps? The, the Bondo apes?

   5. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:38

      No. The Bondo apes? No.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:40

      Yeah. There's, um, there's like a subspecies of chimpanzee that's enormous.

   7. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:45

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:45

      They're much larger, and the, the locals have two categories that they, they call, uh, the smaller chimps, um, uh, tree beaters 'cause they're up in the trees.

   9. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:56

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:56

       And the, the bottom ones they call lion killers.

   11. MZMariana van Zeller1:00:59

       Mm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:00:59

       And they nest on the ground like gorillas, and they're huge.

   13. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:02

       Oh, wow.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:03

       Yeah, there's, uh, a, I think he's from Switzerland, a wildlife photographer named Carl Amman, and he was one of the first people to, uh, to definitely document these things.

   15. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:14

       Mm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:15

       Because there had been old photos from like the 1920s, these black and white photos of these ones that they had killed that were huge. And there's one famous photo of these two men that are at a, see, that's one of them.

   17. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:29

       Oh, wow.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:29

       But that's not even the biggest one. There's one, that one up there, that one. Look at the size of that thing.

   19. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:35

       Wow. That does not look like a chimp.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:37

       I know. It's enormous.

   21. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:38

       Huge.

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:01:38

       And that one they kill, they call it the Bili ape, the Bondo ape.

   23. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:42

       Uh-huh.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:01:42

       And they have a crest on their skull like a, like a gorilla does.... and so initially, they thought that they were a hybrid.

   25. MZMariana van Zeller1:01:50

       Hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:01:51

       That, that one is one of them that was walking upright, that photo, uh, to the left of that, Jamie, the one down, down, down below that. Right there. That one. That one, um, was, uh, a, a photo that they took with a camera trap, so like, it w- it walked-

   27. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:07

       Oh.

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:07

       ... by upright and they saw this, uh, one walk across the road and they said it's six feet tall. A six-foot-tall chimpanzee-

   29. MZMariana van Zeller1:02:16

       Wow.

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:16

       ... that was, you know, hundreds and hundreds of pounds.

Episode duration: 2:56:58