Joe Rogan Experience #1938 - Mariana van Zeller

Mariana van Zeller is an award-winning investigative journalist, and host of Nat Geo’s "Trafficked with Mariana van Zeller." www.nationalgeographic.com/tv/shows/trafficked-with-mariana-van-zeller

Mariana van ZellerguestJoe Roganhost

Jun 27, 20242h 56mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,000 words

0:00 – 1:13
Mariana’s return + what Trafficked investigates (Season 3/4)
1. NANarrator
  (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
2. MZMariana van Zeller
  The Joe Rogan Experience.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) And we're up.
4. MZMariana van Zeller
  Nice.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Hello.
6. MZMariana van Zeller
  Hi.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Good to see you again. What's happening?
8. MZMariana van Zeller
  Great to see you too.
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Good to see you alive and well.
10. MZMariana van Zeller
  (laughs)
11. JRJoe Rogan
  You scare me sometimes-
12. MZMariana van Zeller
  (laughs)
13. JRJoe Rogan
  ... with your dangerous adventures, like real boots on the ground investigative journalism.
14. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Oof.
16. MZMariana van Zeller
  We've been all over the world. Uh, I think last time I was here was two years ago?
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. Last time-
18. MZMariana van Zeller
  Two, two and a half, two years ago.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  ... you had just gotten back from the cocaine manufacturing-
20. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. Mm-hmm.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  ... in the jungle, which was wild.
22. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  And then you took a backpack-
24. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  ... with the stuff and traveled-
26. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yep.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... with the-
28. MZMariana van Zeller
  That's right.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Oof.
30. MZMariana van Zeller
  And since have reported on a lot other drugs and other crazy situations. And, uh, we're now doing s- actually already filming season four.
1:13 – 5:12
Buying guns “too easily”: from parking-lot AKs to cartel supply lines
1. JRJoe Rogan
  The craziest one to me was the getting the guns in America and transporting them to Mexico.
2. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
3. JRJoe Rogan
  That that is going on, and that it's going on with cops.
4. MZMariana van Zeller
  It is. Uh, it is, for me, it's always been, I think the first story I did on guns in America was about 12, 15 years ago where I was able to buy an AK-47 out of a, a Taco Bell parking lot-
5. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
6. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... in Arizona.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Where else?
8. MZMariana van Zeller
  And ... And where else than in Arizona?
9. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
10. MZMariana van Zeller
  And then the funny thing that happened-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  I meant where else but a, a Ta- Taco Bell parking lot?
12. MZMariana van Zeller
  Oh yeah, of course.
13. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
14. MZMariana van Zeller
  Of course.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  Both those things.
16. MZMariana van Zeller
  Of course.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
18. MZMariana van Zeller
  And then we went to a bar to sort of celebrate the fact that we just filmed this crazy thing that had just happened because we, we knew it was, uh, possible that people were doing this, but we wanted to show it with our camera. So we had sort of secret cameras filming and then I went out and I bought it and we went out to a bar after, uh, and I ordered a beer and I, I forgot my driver's license, so (laughs) they didn't give me a beer.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  That's hilarious.
20. MZMariana van Zeller
  Isn't that funny? So no beer, but y- I could go out with a AK-47. And a few days later we bought a .50 cal out of a guy's garage that we went out into the desert and filmed and shot.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  Women like it when they get carded.
22. MZMariana van Zeller
  Of course we do. (laughs)
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. (laughs) It's not-
24. MZMariana van Zeller
  Unfortunately I don't get carded as often nowadays.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  It's just ridiculous. You know?
26. MZMariana van Zeller
  (laughs)
27. JRJoe Rogan
  Come on. I guess they have to, I mean, but whatever.
28. MZMariana van Zeller
  Oh, it's ridiculous.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  I mean, come on. It's crazy.
30. MZMariana van Zeller
  I know. I know.
5:12 – 7:46
Ghost guns explained: untraceable weapons, 80% kits, and 3D printing
1. JRJoe Rogan
  How do they make a ghost gun?
2. MZMariana van Zeller
  It is ... I'm happy you're asking that because I think it's the biggest, uh, f- people don't understand out there, they think that when you talk about ghost guns that it has to be 3D printed. It's not. A ghost gun is an untraceable gun. Doesn't mean that it has to be 3D printed. Um, however, nowadays ... It's basically, uh, uh, so it's a gun that doesn't have a serial number. And it could have had a serial number and the serial number was scrubbed and maybe they put new fake serial number in there. Um, and, but what happens is because of the 3D printers, um, it's now super easy to just print a gun or gun parts at home. So there are all these companies out there who sell 80% kits that have everything to build a gun except for the receiver. But there's a company, for example, called Defense Distributed, r- ran by Cody Wilson who was the first one to use a ghost gun, uh, or a gun, a 3D printed gun, actually it was called the Liberator. And, uh, he got into all sorts of trouble with-
3. JRJoe Rogan
  The Liberator.
4. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.... and he's a strong believer in, um ... He said he wanted this, his, his company to be sort of the WikiLeaks for guns so that everybody could have access to guns. So he sells these kits that are 80% kits, and it's all everything you need to buy a gun except for the lower receiver, which is what the ATF and the government actually considers to be the gun.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  What part is the lower receiver?
6. MZMariana van Zeller
  It depends on which weapon, I believe, but it's the bottom. On the guns that he's selling, it's sort of the bottom piece.
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, okay.
8. MZMariana van Zeller
  Um-
9. NANarrator
  There's the, there's the Liberator.
10. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. That is a Liberator. Yeah. So this is all 3D printed, and he ha- he showed me-
11. JRJoe Rogan
  So that's an actual gun, that plastic thing?
12. MZMariana van Zeller
  That is, and, you know-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  If somebody pulled that on me, I'd be skeptical. I'd go like, "Hey."
14. MZMariana van Zeller
  And this was several years ago. It's evolved-
15. JRJoe Rogan
  (laughs)
16. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... a lot. It's evolved a lot since then, though.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
18. MZMariana van Zeller
  The ghost gun.
19. NANarrator
  There's ghost a lot. Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
21. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  So that's a real gun, that plastic thing?
23. NANarrator
  These are ghost guns too.
24. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  And so what-
26. MZMariana van Zeller
  But now ... But yeah, but if you wanna see some of the new ones-
27. NANarrator
  These are ghost.
28. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... and what they're making, yeah.
29. JRJoe Rogan
  And these?
30. MZMariana van Zeller
  Now, these are also ghost guns.
7:46 – 8:23
Teen builders and illegal conversions: drop-in sears and full-auto risks
1. MZMariana van Zeller
  Oh, one of the craziest things we filmed for this ghost gun episode was actually this, these teenagers that were also making, uh, 3D and ghost guns. And they came to the desert with us, and we spent a whole day with them shooting guns and showing us what they build. And they were also, uh, making drop-in sears, which are little pieces to ... that transform a gun from semi-automatic to fully automatic.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
3. MZMariana van Zeller
  And they're illegal actually in America. You can't buy that at a gun store, but they're making them for 50 cents.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  (sighs)
5. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. It's-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Wow.
7. MZMariana van Zeller
  It's a crazy, it's a crazy world. (laughs)
8:23 – 12:17
Staying optimistic: the “why” behind crime, and when empathy breaks
1. JRJoe Rogan
  How much, uh, l- like, how much of an education are you getting in how fucked we are by your show? (laughs)
2. MZMariana van Zeller
  (laughs)
3. JRJoe Rogan
  Because I would, I would be very pessimistic if I had gone to all the places that you've gone to and seen all the, the chaos that you've seen.
4. MZMariana van Zeller
  I'm not. Uh, I'm not pessimistic at all. I think one of the biggest surprises for me filming this show has been finding out that even the people, not all, but the majority of the people that I've met, um, involved in these illegal activities around the world, um, that they're very much people just like you and me. And it is more often than not because of a lack of opportunities that they end up involved in a life of crime.
5. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
6. MZMariana van Zeller
  And I think, uh, you know, there is, uh, the idea that no matter how far I travel to the edges of our society, and that I can find, still find people who are le- relatable and redeemable makes me ha- actually have a very optimistic view of the world. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone. You know, when I'm interviewing white supremacists who talk about, you know, wanting death for minorities or, um, you know, other people that I've interviewed-
7. JRJoe Rogan
  Have you done that? You've interviewed-
8. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. We did. We did an episode on-
9. JRJoe Rogan
  Is that on this season?
10. MZMariana van Zeller
  It's on Season 2, last season, on white supremacy. Um ...
11. JRJoe Rogan
  Where did you go?
12. MZMariana van Zeller
  We went to Denver. We interviewed in-
13. JRJoe Rogan
  Denver?
14. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm. Uh, there is a, uh, the ... We interviewed a couple of people in Denver, uh, one of which was a 28-year-old, I believe. Uh, he was a ... I can't remember what he was by day, but, uh, he showed up wearing a swastika, um, and, uh, he was talking about a race war, and he was going to do everything he could to make this race war start. And, uh, and he was part of Atomwaffen, which is a big anti- white supremacist group that has actually been responsible for some deaths in the US.
15. JRJoe Rogan
  How many of those people just need, like, somewhere to belong to, and this is like something that they find that they can, th- they can find a bunch of people that are energized about a, a very specific cause. And then they find that if they align themselves with this group, there's like a camaraderie and a brothership in this cause, even if it's ridiculous and disgusting?
16. MZMariana van Zeller
  I think a lot of them.
17. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
18. MZMariana van Zeller
  I think the vast majority of them actually.
19. JRJoe Rogan
  Lost people.
20. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. And it's the danger of the internet, right? Because it's a loud speaker, and fortunately, it's a place where you can find that community. But that community is not always good.
21. JRJoe Rogan
  It's a danger of psychology too, right?
22. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
23. JRJoe Rogan
  Th- that there's people are easily manipulated, and they want to belong to a group.
24. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
25. JRJoe Rogan
  And especially if they think that it's like some sort of a secret group that other people don't know about and-
26. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
27. JRJoe Rogan
  ... that they have this cause they think is, you know, v- valid or just.
28. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm. Or make sense of the world, you know?
29. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
30. MZMariana van Zeller
  Maybe if the world is ... If they feel like the world is not, uh, is unjust towards them, uh, they feel like there has to be a reason behind it, so maybe it is.
12:17 – 15:39
Psychedelics episode: finding LSD chemists and unexpected motivations
1. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... we did, uh, ghost gums. We did one on LSD, psychedelics.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
3. MZMariana van Zeller
  It was my first time ever doing a story on psychedelics.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Man.
5. MZMariana van Zeller
  It was a great episode. Um, we basically spent months and months trying to get, uh, an interview with an LSD chemist. There's only a few of them out there.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
7. MZMariana van Zeller
  Some people say-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  There's only, like, five or six-
9. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  ... in the whole country-
11. MZMariana van Zeller
  I know.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  ... which is crazy.
13. MZMariana van Zeller
  I know. I-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  I just found that out recently.
15. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. Uh, it's really, really hard. And we kept hearing about these hermit car- hermit chemists who live out in the forests-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
17. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... and are hidden. And, I mean, we interviewed so many people and talked to so many people to try to ac- get access to. And, like, and then in the end, it was, we, we, we got access to a chemist who is no longer a chemist, but it was one of the most powerful interviews we ever did.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  So he quit after you interviewed him?
19. MZMariana van Zeller
  (laughs) No. He got, he got in trouble.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
21. MZMariana van Zeller
  He was a LSD chemist and he did time in prison, basically, uh, in the UK.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
23. MZMariana van Zeller
  And he's, but he's American, and he's now living in Montana. And, uh, he's now liv- he actually, he lives out of school bus in Montana.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
25. MZMariana van Zeller
  And it was a really powerful interview because, you know, we, I spend so much time reporting on drugs and talking to people who do it because of the money. And with psychedelics, we filmed a lot of people involved in the psychedelics business selling mushrooms and LSD, and not one single one of them were doing it bec- was doing it because of the money. They all told us how they were doing it because of the power of the drug and how LSD has changed them and transformed them. And they really believe in the power of the drug in terms of sort of liberating and raising consciousness in the world.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
27. MZMariana van Zeller
  And he was one of them. So here I was finally in front of a chemist who spent, you know, years of his life making LSD. And then, uh, and he started crying and bawling and talking about how... W- when I asked him, "Do you think, do you know other active chemists out there?" And he told me, "Look, I do, but I would never give you that name because I would take away from them what has been taken away from me." And he starts bawling talking about what LSD made, meant for him, what making LSD meant for him and how he was robbed of his life's meaning.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
29. MZMariana van Zeller
  It was really incredible. I was not expecting that.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  So he felt like his life's meaning was to provide it.
15:39 – 21:40
Therapeutic psychedelics, microdosing, and the downside of weed for some
1. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. Uh, I mean, one of the guys, uh, the people we interviewed was a former, um, um, uh, former military suffering from PTSD-
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
3. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... a young kid who had been in, uh, Afghanistan, I believe. Yes, Afghanistan. And he was part of the bomb sniffing crew that goes-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  (exhales)
5. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... uh, I- looking for IEDs. And the car that he was in, actually, uh, there was an IED that exploded under him. But it was all protected so nothing happened to him. He suffered a concussion and was out for a few minutes and then was rescued. But there was still incoming shooting coming at him. It was like a whole situation and he was suffering from PTSD. And he wa- told us he was incapable and he tried everything, all the medication that, that, uh, was available for him by the traditional medical community and, uh, nothing was working. And he says he was having trouble waking up in the morning. He was suffering, again, from PTSD. And then he tried LSD and it changed, he says it's completely changed his life. Um, and he started doing LSD through, with a therapist, with somebody that, a sh- sha- shaman I guess.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Shaman.
7. MZMariana van Zeller
  A shaman who, like, helps him. And we filmed one of his first sessions with the person.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
9. MZMariana van Zeller
  Um, he had d- done it before, but it was one of the first sort of guided sessions. And, uh, it was fascinating to see. Um, and he's, yeah, he's now in school. And, uh, I'm not sure if his life is all perfectly fine, but he's doing much better according to him.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, whose life is perfectly fine?
11. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah, exactly. (laughs)
12. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, it's life.
13. MZMariana van Zeller
  Exactly. Exactly.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  But that is, uh, one of the best therapeutic uses of it.
15. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you speak to anyone at MAPS?
17. MZMariana van Zeller
  We did-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
19. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... actually, up in Canada too. We spent time in Vancouver as well. Um, it's big there. We spent time with some people who are using it as therapy. Um, and it's, yeah, uh, uh, it was, again, as somebody who hasn't done a lot of work with psychedelics, it was really, really incredible. And I have since micro dosed (laughs) on mushrooms and, uh, and I, I really like it. (laughs)
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, it's great. (laughs)
21. MZMariana van Zeller
  (laughs)
22. JRJoe Rogan
  I'm a fan.
23. MZMariana van Zeller
  To me, it does what I think I thought people tell you weed does, which is it makes you sort of relax and laugh.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
25. MZMariana van Zeller
  Uh, that's what micro dosing... (laughs)
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, micro dosing does that way better than weed.
27. MZMariana van Zeller
  Right?
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Because weed, uh, for some people, it gives you that paranoia that they don't like at all.
29. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah, that's what happens to me.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
21:40 – 39:57
War on drugs failures + the opioid pipeline: pill mills, bribes, and fentanyl
1. MZMariana van Zeller
  I 100% agree. I mean, one thing we know is that the war on drugs hasn't worked. The billions of dollars that the United States has spent on the w- war on drugs has actually had the reverse effect. And as you know well, the biggest drug epidemic in America's history was created right here in America by the pharmaceutical companies.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes. Well, that's how I found out about you-
3. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  ... from the OxyContin Express.
5. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  That, that was so eye-opening. And when you did that... What, what channel were you guys on back then?
7. MZMariana van Zeller
  Current TV, it was Al Gore's television channel. Yeah. It was 9-9-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  It was Al Gore's? (laughs)
9. MZMariana van Zeller
  It was. (laughs)
10. JRJoe Rogan
  That's hilarious. (laughs)
11. MZMariana van Zeller
  It was, it was actually a really interesting experience. So it was right before YouTube started.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
13. MZMariana van Zeller
  And basically they were trying to... The idea was democratizing television. It was giving young kids out there a platform to go out there and explore the world and come back with these stories, so that's how I started. Um-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  What year was this?
15. MZMariana van Zeller
  This was 2005 or '06.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, wow.
17. MZMariana van Zeller
  2005 when, was when I started, yeah.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
19. MZMariana van Zeller
  Um, so a long time ago. And then YouTube came around. (laughs) It turns out that YouTube was a bigger success than-
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
21. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... Current TV. But I really... The show that I worked on was called Vanguard, and it was all these young journalists who... Both of us had just graduated but they basically gave us cameras and in my case, D- my husband at the time was my boyfriend, we both applied. They hired us both, and then we traveled all around the world. He would film, I would be on camera and then we'd come back, I'd edit, he'd write, we'd do these stories together.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
23. MZMariana van Zeller
  And one of the stories we did was the prescription pill story, uh, the OxyContin Express, which is how we met.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
25. MZMariana van Zeller
  Because he tweeted about it. (laughs)
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, I think your work really changed the way people were aware of that problem in Florida and they j- it changed the laws because-
27. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  ... they didn't have databases back then, which was 100% on, on purpose.
29. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. So you could go from-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Yes.
39:57 – 44:09
Legalization vs black markets: California weed, cartels, and regulation failures
1. MZMariana van Zeller
  It's true. And it ... That happened with weed in, uh, in California.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
3. MZMariana van Zeller
  So an episode we did last season was about weed and how the black market for weed, the illegal weed market, is actually three times bigger than the legal market, even after it's been legalized in California. And that is because the government has made it so difficult for people to get a license and so costly that they, people just decide to continue running their weed business illegally. They-
4. JRJoe Rogan
  Well, not only that, but they've also made it so that growing marijuana even with the intent to distribute is just a misdemeanor. So if you are ... So there was a man named John Norris who we had on the podcast who, uh, wrote a book called Hidden Wars.
5. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  And he was a game warden and ... In California.
7. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
8. JRJoe Rogan
  And so-
9. MZMariana van Zeller
  Oh, I listened to that pod-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
11. MZMariana van Zeller
  It was really good. Mm-hmm.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Really interesting, because his e- original job was just to find people that-
13. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  ... were violating fish and game laws.
15. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Like catching too many fish or something like that.
17. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  And they found a creek that had dried up and it had been diverted to this illegal grow op on, you know, national land.
19. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  And that these, uh, forests-
21. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. We, we filmed at some of them.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm.
23. MZMariana van Zeller
  And it's crazy.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Crazy.
25. MZMariana van Zeller
  You're out ... We, we took ... The police went in. We went on a big raid with the police. They went in. They were rappelling down, helicopters. We had to hike in and it was hours and hours with all our gear to try to get to this place. It was in the middle of nowhere and it was, you know, fields and fields of-
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
27. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... illegal weed and it was all controlled by the cartel. We actually managed to speak to one of them that was there as a worker, and that's the really sad part of it.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh, yeah.
29. MZMariana van Zeller
  Is that a lot of them are just, you know-
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Sure, they're just poor.
44:09 – 48:07
Crypto scams and ‘rug pulls’: laundering money in the DeFi era
1. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, it's so... Yeah, I, I started being, I started asking now almost everybody we interview, because I'm fascinated by that, like, "What do you do with your money?" Right? If, you know, we interview... One of the episodes we did this season was about, uh, um, crypto scams. Um, and we spent time with these, like, three 20-something-year-olds who made millions of dollars out of crypto scams. And these... Have you heard of rug pulls?
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Rug pulls?
3. MZMariana van Zeller
  A rug pull?
4. JRJoe Rogan
  No.
5. MZMariana van Zeller
  So, they would put out these tokens. They would invent this token, imagine, and we'd call this token the Joe Rogan Token.
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Mm-hmm.
7. MZMariana van Zeller
  And, uh, they would get people, and they would start with a certain seed money that they'd put in. And then they would... This is in the DeFi market. Do you know anything about crypto?
8. JRJoe Rogan
  A little bit.
9. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. So, there is the DeFi market, which is more unregulated, um, market, and where you have all these tokens, uh, which is not Bitcoin or Ethereum, it's another... It's, uh, more unregulated. And you have these tokens, and you can go and buy these tokens. And there's PR people that are out there sell- telling you that this is the new hottest token-
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
11. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... and you're gonna, you can make money overnight. So, you build, you set out, you launch this Joe Rogan Token, you put some seed money on it. You start, you get a PR person to go out there and get celebrities, uh, you know, putting out social media posts about how this new Joe Rogan Token is the shit, and you should absolutely buy it. And people start buying it, and after a few weeks, they basically sell all their shares and the value, the price goes down. But they've, what they made, they invested, I don't know, like $100 and they've made millions of dollars. And so people are left with nothing.
12. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah.
13. MZMariana van Zeller
  It's a rug pull. And these kids told us that they were making, you know, millions and millions of dollars. Um, and so, yeah, one of the biggest questions I had, "So what are you using, uh, how do you launder this money? How are you..." Because obviously ... And, I mean, they were flying private. They rented a huge mansion in Dubai. They were there for the Crypto Convention.
14. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
15. MZMariana van Zeller
  And, uh, and yeah, they, they were investing heavily in real estate (laughs) and in other businesses. Um, restaurants-
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Hmm.
17. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... and businesses like that. It's really fascinating.
18. JRJoe Rogan
  Phew.
19. MZMariana van Zeller
  (laughs)
20. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah. That, the crypto market is very bizarre.
21. MZMariana van Zeller
  It's-
22. JRJoe Rogan
  You know, this whole, uh, FTX, um, thing with Sam Bankman-Fried.
23. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
24. JRJoe Rogan
  I'm just fascinated by that.
25. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm. Me too.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Fascinated by it. And I was reading a thing today about the, the new CEO who was hired to untangle it.
27. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  And, and find out what was going on. And his d- depictions, uh, he said it was just 100% old-fashioned embezzlement.
29. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  And that these people, uh, d- had none of the fails- fail-safes and none of the protection that you would normally give to people investing their money. And they were just moving money around.
48:07 – 1:20:38
Ape trafficking in the Congo: demand from private zoos and social media status
1. MZMariana van Zeller
  I just came from the Congo.
2. JRJoe Rogan
  Did you really?
3. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah.
4. JRJoe Rogan
  What were you there for?
5. MZMariana van Zeller
  I'm doing a story on ape trafficking-
6. JRJoe Rogan
  Oh.
7. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... and actually spent time with the pygmies. Um-
8. JRJoe Rogan
  Ape trafficking?
9. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
10. JRJoe Rogan
  Like, what it-
11. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah. Apes are being trafficked, um-
12. JRJoe Rogan
  So people are selling them?
13. MZMariana van Zeller
  ... gorillas, chimpanzees, uh, they're illegally being snatched. Um, baby gorillas go for tens of thousands of dollars. And-
14. JRJoe Rogan
  What do people do with them?
15. MZMariana van Zeller
  They sell them to private zoos and people who just wanna have animals in their houses. A lot of them end up in the UAE. Um, and it's, uh, yeah, it's very, very sad.
16. JRJoe Rogan
  Private zoos?
17. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm. People who have, don't know what to do with their money and they like exotic animals. And so they own chimpanzees and even gorillas. It's crazy, uh-
18. JRJoe Rogan
  I remember when I had Mike Tyson on, he was explaining to me how he got into, uh, lions.
19. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
20. JRJoe Rogan
  L- lions and tigers.
21. MZMariana van Zeller
  And tigress, yeah.
22. JRJoe Rogan
  And, uh, it was basically, I think, wasn't he saying that he was talking to a guy about cars? And the guy was, you know, like what kind of cars he wants to buy. And uh, the guy was like, "Hey, you want a lion?" (laughs)
23. MZMariana van Zeller
  Really? And that's how he got into it?
24. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, Mike had, Mike had tigers.
25. MZMariana van Zeller
  Yeah, I remember.
26. JRJoe Rogan
  Yeah, which is just insane. And apparently when you have a tiger, the tiger will listen to you-
27. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
28. JRJoe Rogan
  ... but no one else.
29. MZMariana van Zeller
  Mm-hmm.
30. JRJoe Rogan
  Which is terrifying.