Joe Rogan Experience #1938 - Mariana van Zeller

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Mariana van Zeller 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) And we're up.

Mariana van Zeller 0:14 Nice.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Hello.

Mariana van Zeller 0:14 Hi.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Good to see you again. What's happening?

Mariana van Zeller 0:16 Great to see you too.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Good to see you alive and well.

Mariana van Zeller 0:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:19 You scare me sometimes-

Mariana van Zeller 0:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:20 ... with your dangerous adventures, like real boots on the ground investigative journalism.

Mariana van Zeller 0:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:26 Oof.

Mariana van Zeller 0:26 We've been all over the world. Uh, I think last time I was here was two years ago?

Joe Rogan 0:31 Yeah. Last time-

Mariana van Zeller 0:31 Two, two and a half, two years ago.

Joe Rogan 0:31 ... you had just gotten back from the cocaine manufacturing-

Mariana van Zeller 0:36 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:36 ... in the jungle, which was wild.

Mariana van Zeller 0:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:38 And then you took a backpack-

Mariana van Zeller 0:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 0:40 ... with the stuff and traveled-

Mariana van Zeller 0:42 Yep.

Joe Rogan 0:42 ... with the-

Mariana van Zeller 0:43 That's right.

Joe Rogan 0:44 Oof.

Mariana van Zeller 0:44 And since have reported on a lot other drugs and other crazy situations. And, uh, we're now doing s- actually already filming season four.

Joe Rogan 0:53 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 0:53 Season three is coming out right now.

Joe Rogan 0:55 Tell people where to get it and what it's called.

Mariana van Zeller 0:56 So yeah, it's, uh, Trafficked with Mariana Van Zeller. It's on National Geographic, next day on Hulu, and it's on Wednesdays at 9:00 PM. And it's about black markets, so it's illegal markets around the world, whether it's drugs, guns, fight clubs, uh, I mean all, anything s- servicy, illegal servicy.

Joe Rogan 1:13 The craziest one to me was the getting the guns in America and transporting them to Mexico.

Mariana van Zeller 1:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:21 That that is going on, and that it's going on with cops.

Mariana van Zeller 1:25 It is. Uh, it is, for me, it's always been, I think the first story I did on guns in America was about 12, 15 years ago where I was able to buy an AK-47 out of a, a Taco Bell parking lot-

Joe Rogan 1:37 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:38 ... in Arizona.

Joe Rogan 1:39 Where else?

Mariana van Zeller 1:39 And ... And where else than in Arizona?

Joe Rogan 1:42 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:42 And then the funny thing that happened-

Joe Rogan 1:43 I meant where else but a, a Ta- Taco Bell parking lot?

Mariana van Zeller 1:44 Oh yeah, of course.

Joe Rogan 1:45 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:45 Of course.

Joe Rogan 1:45 Both those things.

Mariana van Zeller 1:46 Of course.

Joe Rogan 1:47 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:47 And then we went to a bar to sort of celebrate the fact that we just filmed this crazy thing that had just happened because we, we knew it was, uh, possible that people were doing this, but we wanted to show it with our camera. So we had sort of secret cameras filming and then I went out and I bought it and we went out to a bar after, uh, and I ordered a beer and I, I forgot my driver's license, so (laughs) they didn't give me a beer.

Joe Rogan 2:07 That's hilarious.

Mariana van Zeller 2:08 Isn't that funny? So no beer, but y- I could go out with a AK-47. And a few days later we bought a .50 cal out of a guy's garage that we went out into the desert and filmed and shot.

Joe Rogan 2:17 Women like it when they get carded.

Mariana van Zeller 2:19 Of course we do. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:20 Yeah. (laughs) It's not-

Mariana van Zeller 2:22 Unfortunately I don't get carded as often nowadays.

Joe Rogan 2:24 It's just ridiculous. You know?

Mariana van Zeller 2:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:26 Come on. I guess they have to, I mean, but whatever.

Mariana van Zeller 2:30 Oh, it's ridiculous.

Joe Rogan 2:30 I mean, come on. It's crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 2:31 I know. I know.

Joe Rogan 2:32 It's 21. Come on. I just, it's-

Mariana van Zeller 2:33 I know.

Joe Rogan 2:33 Look at me.

Mariana van Zeller 2:34 But this was 12 years ago, so it's possible.

Joe Rogan 2:36 Possible.

Mariana van Zeller 2:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:37 Yeah. Um, wh- how hard is it to buy an AK-47? Like do-

Mariana van Zeller 2:40 It was so easy. We went online, at the time, I can't remember what the name of the website... Backpage. At the time there was a websi- website called Backpage where you could essentially buy anything. I don't think that website exists anymore. But it's not even on the black market regular online m- uh, s- website. And we went there and within, I, I think we spoke to the guy 20 minutes before, he said, "Meet us here." We went there, it was him and his girlfriend were there. He was high on drugs.

Joe Rogan 3:03 Oh boy.

Mariana van Zeller 3:03 And he had two, and he had an AR-15 with him as well that he was also wanting to sell. We ended up buying the AK. Um, but yeah, so I've been fascinated with sort of, um, how easy it is to buy guns.

Joe Rogan 3:13 How do you know he was high on drugs?

Mariana van Zeller 3:15 Because you could tell. I've, I've reported enough on drugs and-

Joe Rogan 3:18 Meth, you think?

Mariana van Zeller 3:19 At the time probably. He was very jittery.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 3:22 Yeah, he was definitely an upper, I'm sorry. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:24 Jesus.

Mariana van Zeller 3:25 Um, and, uh, and then yeah, so then we decided to do this for the first season actually of Trafficked, a story on guns and how American guns are winding up in the hands of the cartel in Mexico and how it's responsible for so much of the violence that's happening there. And sort of this cycle, which I don't think most people think about, how then the violence leads people to immigrate to America, and then they come here and, you know, so it's like a cycle of, of violence and immigration, it's all, and guns, and it's all sort of connected. But whenever we do a story on guns, and we just, one, another one that I did on ghost guns was released last week on National Geographic, and, uh, it is the most sort of controversial issue, the homo- hot topic that we can always ... So I immediately start getting messages of people saying that I should go back to my country and, uh, what am I doing? And I'm trying to take p- away people's rights to own a gun, which is absolutely not the case. And it's, uh, yeah, it's debating.

Joe Rogan 4:24 I think the people wouldn't want to know that police officers are confiscating guns and then selling those guns to the Mexican cartel, that you as a legal, law-abiding gun owner in America-

Mariana van Zeller 4:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:36 ... wouldn't want that exposed.

Mariana van Zeller 4:38 Yeah. Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 4:39 It's-

Mariana van Zeller 4:39 And, and the, the guns that people are buying, and particularly with this last episode on ghost guns, which is the fact that the guns, uh, that are now these untraceable, unlicensed guns are so easy to make and they're, so many of them are ending up in crime scenes across America and in the hands of gang members and, you know, m- militant groups and anti-government groups. And it's, it's scary. And that's all we're, what we're trying to do as a journalist myself when we decided to do those stories because I started hearing from people talking about how these guns are ending up in the wrong place. And ...

Joe Rogan 5:12 How do they make a ghost gun?

Mariana van Zeller 5:15 It is ... I'm happy you're asking that because I think it's the biggest, uh, f- people don't understand out there, they think that when you talk about ghost guns that it has to be 3D printed. It's not. A ghost gun is an untraceable gun. Doesn't mean that it has to be 3D printed. Um, however, nowadays ... It's basically, uh, uh, so it's a gun that doesn't have a serial number. And it could have had a serial number and the serial number was scrubbed and maybe they put new fake serial number in there. Um, and, but what happens is because of the 3D printers, um, it's now super easy to just print a gun or gun parts at home. So there are all these companies out there who sell 80% kits that have everything to build a gun except for the receiver. But there's a company, for example, called Defense Distributed, r- ran by Cody Wilson who was the first one to use a ghost gun, uh, or a gun, a 3D printed gun, actually it was called the Liberator. And, uh, he got into all sorts of trouble with-

Joe Rogan 6:08 The Liberator.

Mariana van Zeller 6:09 Yeah.... and he's a strong believer in, um ... He said he wanted this, his, his company to be sort of the WikiLeaks for guns so that everybody could have access to guns. So he sells these kits that are 80% kits, and it's all everything you need to buy a gun except for the lower receiver, which is what the ATF and the government actually considers to be the gun.

Joe Rogan 6:29 What part is the lower receiver?

Mariana van Zeller 6:31 It depends on which weapon, I believe, but it's the bottom. On the guns that he's selling, it's sort of the bottom piece.

Joe Rogan 6:38 Oh, okay.

Mariana van Zeller 6:39 Um-

Narrator 6:40 There's the, there's the Liberator.

Mariana van Zeller 6:41 Yeah. That is a Liberator. Yeah. So this is all 3D printed, and he ha- he showed me-

Joe Rogan 6:46 So that's an actual gun, that plastic thing?

Mariana van Zeller 6:48 That is, and, you know-

Joe Rogan 6:49 If somebody pulled that on me, I'd be skeptical. I'd go like, "Hey."

Mariana van Zeller 6:51 And this was several years ago. It's evolved-

Joe Rogan 6:53 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 6:53 ... a lot. It's evolved a lot since then, though.

Joe Rogan 6:56 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 6:56 The ghost gun.

Narrator 6:56 There's ghost a lot. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:57 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 6:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:58 So that's a real gun, that plastic thing?

Narrator 7:00 These are ghost guns too.

Mariana van Zeller 7:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:03 And so what-

Mariana van Zeller 7:03 But now ... But yeah, but if you wanna see some of the new ones-

Narrator 7:06 These are ghost.

Mariana van Zeller 7:06 ... and what they're making, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:07 And these?

Mariana van Zeller 7:07 Now, these are also ghost guns.

Joe Rogan 7:08 And some of that is metal. So what do they ... Where do they get the metal parts?

Mariana van Zeller 7:12 Some of it is metal. It can be all 3D printed, some of it is metal. So you can buy it from companies like Cody Wilson's, and then you-

Joe Rogan 7:17 They 3D print metal?

Mariana van Zeller 7:19 Oh, nowadays, yes. You can-

Joe Rogan 7:21 Really?

Mariana van Zeller 7:21 ... you can have a ... It's like a polyamor, uh, what's the ... I can't remember what it's-

Joe Rogan 7:26 Polymer?

Mariana van Zeller 7:26 Polymer, sorry. Polymer, uh, material that is ... Yeah. That, that, that's what a lot of the guns are actually made out of.

Joe Rogan 7:33 Like a carbon fiber or something?

Mariana van Zeller 7:34 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:34 Because I've seen carbon fiber barrels for hunting rifles. They make them very light so that people can take them-

Mariana van Zeller 7:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:40 ... into the back country when they go deep into the woods.

Mariana van Zeller 7:42 Yeah.

Narrator 7:42 There's all k- kind of parts you can make with-

Joe Rogan 7:44 Wow.

Narrator 7:45 ... 3D printed metal stuff.

Mariana van Zeller 7:46 Oh, one of the craziest things we filmed for this ghost gun episode was actually this, these teenagers that were also making, uh, 3D and ghost guns. And they came to the desert with us, and we spent a whole day with them shooting guns and showing us what they build. And they were also, uh, making drop-in sears, which are little pieces to ... that transform a gun from semi-automatic to fully automatic.

Joe Rogan 8:12 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 8:13 And they're illegal actually in America. You can't buy that at a gun store, but they're making them for 50 cents.

Joe Rogan 8:18 (sighs)

Mariana van Zeller 8:19 Yeah. It's-

Joe Rogan 8:20 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 8:20 It's a crazy, it's a crazy world. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:23 How much, uh, l- like, how much of an education are you getting in how fucked we are by your show? (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 8:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:31 Because I would, I would be very pessimistic if I had gone to all the places that you've gone to and seen all the, the chaos that you've seen.

Mariana van Zeller 8:39 I'm not. Uh, I'm not pessimistic at all. I think one of the biggest surprises for me filming this show has been finding out that even the people, not all, but the majority of the people that I've met, um, involved in these illegal activities around the world, um, that they're very much people just like you and me. And it is more often than not because of a lack of opportunities that they end up involved in a life of crime.

Joe Rogan 9:05 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 9:06 And I think, uh, you know, there is, uh, the idea that no matter how far I travel to the edges of our society, and that I can find, still find people who are le- relatable and redeemable makes me ha- actually have a very optimistic view of the world. Of course, that doesn't apply to everyone. You know, when I'm interviewing white supremacists who talk about, you know, wanting death for minorities or, um, you know, other people that I've interviewed-

Joe Rogan 9:33 Have you done that? You've interviewed-

Mariana van Zeller 9:34 Yeah. We did. We did an episode on-

Joe Rogan 9:35 Is that on this season?

Mariana van Zeller 9:36 It's on Season 2, last season, on white supremacy. Um ...

Joe Rogan 9:40 Where did you go?

Mariana van Zeller 9:42 We went to Denver. We interviewed in-

Joe Rogan 9:44 Denver?

Mariana van Zeller 9:44 Mm-hmm. Uh, there is a, uh, the ... We interviewed a couple of people in Denver, uh, one of which was a 28-year-old, I believe. Uh, he was a ... I can't remember what he was by day, but, uh, he showed up wearing a swastika, um, and, uh, he was talking about a race war, and he was going to do everything he could to make this race war start. And, uh, and he was part of Atomwaffen, which is a big anti- white supremacist group that has actually been responsible for some deaths in the US.

Joe Rogan 10:19 How many of those people just need, like, somewhere to belong to, and this is like something that they find that they can, th- they can find a bunch of people that are energized about a, a very specific cause. And then they find that if they align themselves with this group, there's like a camaraderie and a brothership in this cause, even if it's ridiculous and disgusting?

Mariana van Zeller 10:42 I think a lot of them.

Joe Rogan 10:43 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 10:43 I think the vast majority of them actually.

Joe Rogan 10:45 Lost people.

Mariana van Zeller 10:46 Yeah. And it's the danger of the internet, right? Because it's a loud speaker, and fortunately, it's a place where you can find that community. But that community is not always good.

Joe Rogan 10:54 It's a danger of psychology too, right?

Mariana van Zeller 10:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:56 Th- that there's people are easily manipulated, and they want to belong to a group.

Mariana van Zeller 11:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:01 And especially if they think that it's like some sort of a secret group that other people don't know about and-

Mariana van Zeller 11:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:07 ... that they have this cause they think is, you know, v- valid or just.

Mariana van Zeller 11:11 Mm-hmm. Or make sense of the world, you know?

Joe Rogan 11:13 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 11:13 Maybe if the world is ... If they feel like the world is not, uh, is unjust towards them, uh, they feel like there has to be a reason behind it, so maybe it is.

Joe Rogan 11:23 Did you ever see when W. Kamau Bell, uh, went and interviewed, uh, a bunch of KKK-

Mariana van Zeller 11:28 Yeah, I did.

Joe Rogan 11:29 He's great at that because he's such an easygoing-

Mariana van Zeller 11:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:32 ... likable guy. He's so nice-

Mariana van Zeller 11:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:35 ... and so smart that when they're with him, they're like, "Hey, you're different."

Mariana van Zeller 11:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:38 And like, "Hey, man, you need some Black friends." (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 11:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:40 Like, there's a lot of people like that out there-

Mariana van Zeller 11:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:42 ... you fucking idiot.

Mariana van Zeller 11:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:43 You know? It's like these poor, f- sad, lost people, and then they're committed to this thing, this horrible idea.

Mariana van Zeller 11:50 I know. So much of it is ... comes out of ignorance too.

Joe Rogan 11:53 Yeah. Most of it.

Mariana van Zeller 11:54 Yeah. I know.

Joe Rogan 11:55 And, and foolishness.

Mariana van Zeller 11:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:56 And it's just, it's, it's so disheartening that that's prevalent.

Mariana van Zeller 12:00 Mm-hmm. It is. It's very sad. Yeah. That, that sense of community is really missing for a lot of people, but, you know, un- unfortunately, it leads to a lot of hate as well. So those were the people that, for me, were really difficult to empathize with.

Joe Rogan 12:13 Yeah. I would imagine. What, what did you do this season?

Mariana van Zeller 12:17 ... we did, uh, ghost gums. We did one on LSD, psychedelics.

Joe Rogan 12:22 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 12:22 It was my first time ever doing a story on psychedelics.

Joe Rogan 12:24 Man.

Mariana van Zeller 12:24 It was a great episode. Um, we basically spent months and months trying to get, uh, an interview with an LSD chemist. There's only a few of them out there.

Joe Rogan 12:34 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 12:34 Some people say-

Joe Rogan 12:34 There's only, like, five or six-

Mariana van Zeller 12:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:36 ... in the whole country-

Mariana van Zeller 12:37 I know.

Joe Rogan 12:37 ... which is crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 12:38 I know. I-

Joe Rogan 12:38 I just found that out recently.

Mariana van Zeller 12:39 Yeah. Uh, it's really, really hard. And we kept hearing about these hermit car- hermit chemists who live out in the forests-

Joe Rogan 12:47 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 12:47 ... and are hidden. And, I mean, we interviewed so many people and talked to so many people to try to ac- get access to. And, like, and then in the end, it was, we, we, we got access to a chemist who is no longer a chemist, but it was one of the most powerful interviews we ever did.

Joe Rogan 13:02 So he quit after you interviewed him?

Mariana van Zeller 13:04 (laughs) No. He got, he got in trouble.

Joe Rogan 13:06 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 13:06 He was a LSD chemist and he did time in prison, basically, uh, in the UK.

Joe Rogan 13:12 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 13:12 And he's, but he's American, and he's now living in Montana. And, uh, he's now liv- he actually, he lives out of school bus in Montana.

Joe Rogan 13:19 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 13:19 And it was a really powerful interview because, you know, we, I spend so much time reporting on drugs and talking to people who do it because of the money. And with psychedelics, we filmed a lot of people involved in the psychedelics business selling mushrooms and LSD, and not one single one of them were doing it bec- was doing it because of the money. They all told us how they were doing it because of the power of the drug and how LSD has changed them and transformed them. And they really believe in the power of the drug in terms of sort of liberating and raising consciousness in the world.

Joe Rogan 13:50 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 13:50 And he was one of them. So here I was finally in front of a chemist who spent, you know, years of his life making LSD. And then, uh, and he started crying and bawling and talking about how... W- when I asked him, "Do you think, do you know other active chemists out there?" And he told me, "Look, I do, but I would never give you that name because I would take away from them what has been taken away from me." And he starts bawling talking about what LSD made, meant for him, what making LSD meant for him and how he was robbed of his life's meaning.

Joe Rogan 14:22 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 14:23 It was really incredible. I was not expecting that.

Joe Rogan 14:25 So he felt like his life's meaning was to provide it.

Mariana van Zeller 14:28 To provide it and to allow people to experience what he experienced at a young age.

Joe Rogan 14:32 Did you have any preconceived notions when you went into that that were dissolved?

Mariana van Zeller 14:37 Mm-hmm, absolutely. Again, I think the financial component. Um, most people that are involved in drug trafficking or m- making of drugs do it because of money. Um, and you know, I don't use drugs, never have, um, because I'm afraid of losing control. (laughs) Uh, I ha- I've tried weed, of course. I tried hash. Oh, one of the episodes we have for the upcoming season is actually about hash because it's the first drug I tried when I was growing up-

Joe Rogan 15:05 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 15:05 ... in Portugal. Um, but-

Joe Rogan 15:07 It's decriminalized in Portugal, right?

Mariana van Zeller 15:07 It's decriminalized. Portugal has an amazing success story-

Joe Rogan 15:10 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 15:11 ... when it comes to drugs. It's pretty cool.

Joe Rogan 15:12 Well, that's part of the problem with illegality, right? When things are illegal-

Mariana van Zeller 15:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:17 ... only criminals are selling them. And then law-abiding people, you know-

Mariana van Zeller 15:21 That's right.

Joe Rogan 15:22 ... are prohibited from taking them.

Mariana van Zeller 15:23 Mm-hmm. That's right.

Joe Rogan 15:24 Which is, uh, it's, you know... Terence McKenna once famously said that freedom, uh, includes the freedom to explore your own consciousness.

Mariana van Zeller 15:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:34 And if you deny people that, you're, you're denying them a basic human right.

Mariana van Zeller 15:37 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:38 And I think he's right.

Mariana van Zeller 15:39 Yeah. Uh, I mean, one of the guys, uh, the people we interviewed was a former, um, um, uh, former military suffering from PTSD-

Joe Rogan 15:47 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 15:47 ... a young kid who had been in, uh, Afghanistan, I believe. Yes, Afghanistan. And he was part of the bomb sniffing crew that goes-

Joe Rogan 15:57 (exhales)

Mariana van Zeller 15:58 ... uh, I- looking for IEDs. And the car that he was in, actually, uh, there was an IED that exploded under him. But it was all protected so nothing happened to him. He suffered a concussion and was out for a few minutes and then was rescued. But there was still incoming shooting coming at him. It was like a whole situation and he was suffering from PTSD. And he wa- told us he was incapable and he tried everything, all the medication that, that, uh, was available for him by the traditional medical community and, uh, nothing was working. And he says he was having trouble waking up in the morning. He was suffering, again, from PTSD. And then he tried LSD and it changed, he says it's completely changed his life. Um, and he started doing LSD through, with a therapist, with somebody that, a sh- sha- shaman I guess.

Joe Rogan 16:45 Shaman.

Mariana van Zeller 16:45 A shaman who, like, helps him. And we filmed one of his first sessions with the person.

Joe Rogan 16:49 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 16:50 Um, he had d- done it before, but it was one of the first sort of guided sessions. And, uh, it was fascinating to see. Um, and he's, yeah, he's now in school. And, uh, I'm not sure if his life is all perfectly fine, but he's doing much better according to him.

Joe Rogan 17:05 Well, whose life is perfectly fine?

Mariana van Zeller 17:07 Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:07 You know, it's life.

Mariana van Zeller 17:09 Exactly. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 17:09 But that is, uh, one of the best therapeutic uses of it.

Mariana van Zeller 17:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:12 Did you speak to anyone at MAPS?

Mariana van Zeller 17:14 We did-

Joe Rogan 17:15 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 17:15 ... actually, up in Canada too. We spent time in Vancouver as well. Um, it's big there. We spent time with some people who are using it as therapy. Um, and it's, yeah, uh, uh, it was, again, as somebody who hasn't done a lot of work with psychedelics, it was really, really incredible. And I have since micro dosed (laughs) on mushrooms and, uh, and I, I really like it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:40 Yeah, it's great. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 17:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:43 I'm a fan.

Mariana van Zeller 17:44 To me, it does what I think I thought people tell you weed does, which is it makes you sort of relax and laugh.

Joe Rogan 17:51 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 17:51 Uh, that's what micro dosing... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:52 Oh, micro dosing does that way better than weed.

Mariana van Zeller 17:55 Right?

Joe Rogan 17:55 Because weed, uh, for some people, it gives you that paranoia that they don't like at all.

Mariana van Zeller 18:01 Yeah, that's what happens to me.

Joe Rogan 18:02 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 18:02 I become... I think it's if you are more like me, w- who want to always be in control-

Joe Rogan 18:07 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 18:08 ... uh, the weed doesn't work. But micro dosing on mushrooms, I've tried it three times during the pandemic and it's...

Joe Rogan 18:12 And my, my position on that is that you should lose control. That that feeling-

Mariana van Zeller 18:17 I think it is.

Joe Rogan 18:17 ... of wanting to be in control is ridiculous because you don't have any control anyway. And that you really should-

Mariana van Zeller 18:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:21 ... embrace this, uh, the paranoia that comes with it because I think what it is, is, uh, uh, expanding of your awareness.

Mariana van Zeller 18:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:28 And just, uh, how-... insanely bizarre life is.

Mariana van Zeller 18:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:33 Life is... Y- you can decide that life is normal if you do the same thing every day and you have a limited amount of variability, you know, every... You drive to work the same way-

Mariana van Zeller 18:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:42 ... you work with the same people, you do the same thing, come home to the same family, and life seems, seems okay.

Mariana van Zeller 18:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:49 And then you get really high and you're like, "Oh my God, this is crazy."

Mariana van Zeller 18:52 It's true, but for somebody who already lives in the uncomfortable side of life-

Joe Rogan 18:56 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 18:56 ... constantly for my work, uh, I'm always in places that usually people would, would make them feel out of control.

Joe Rogan 19:02 Sure.

Mariana van Zeller 19:03 Do you know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 19:03 That's your psychedelic experience.

Mariana van Zeller 19:04 Tha- that is my psychedelic experiences. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:07 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 19:07 Exactly. Exactly. I don't need another one. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:09 I see your position. I mean, I, I see how people are. And I have good, very good friends that don't like pot.

Mariana van Zeller 19:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:14 You know? And I'm a, a pot evangelist.

Mariana van Zeller 19:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:17 Uh, it changed me. It changed who I am-

Mariana van Zeller 19:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:20 ... as a person, it changed the way I feel about things.

Mariana van Zeller 19:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:22 It changed the way I, I treat people.

Mariana van Zeller 19:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:24 It changed the way I look at life.

Mariana van Zeller 19:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:26 Yeah. I think it's a, it's a tool. And I had a joke about it, it's like any tool, it's like a hammer. You could build a house with a hammer or you could hit yourself in the dick if you're crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 19:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:35 And that's the problem with anything.

Mariana van Zeller 19:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:38 And things are open for abuse.

Mariana van Zeller 19:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:41 Everything's open for abuse. Gambling, food-

Mariana van Zeller 19:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:44 ... e- everything, sex.

Mariana van Zeller 19:45 Absolutely. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:46 Yeah. People are... You know, we, we have a problem with, uh, discipline-

Mariana van Zeller 19:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:51 ... and with structure and with, uh, an objective analysis of life. And, um, so when you-

Mariana van Zeller 19:58 I agree.

Joe Rogan 19:58 ... add things like marijuana or mushrooms or LSD or anything to those, you could... And there's also people that have legitimate psychological and mental health problems-

Mariana van Zeller 20:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:07 ... and for them, it's very dangerous, because... Um, I had Alex Berenson on, I don't know if you know who he is. He was a, a... He used to be with the New York Times and he wrote a book called, uh, Tell Your Children.

Mariana van Zeller 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:19 And it was about marijuana and the dangers of marijuana. And I had him on with Mike Hart, who's a doctor from Canada who prescribes marijuana. He's a, a pro-marijuana doctor. And I was actually more on Berenson's side.

Mariana van Zeller 20:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:32 Even though I'm a marijuana advocate.

Mariana van Zeller 20:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:34 I think it's... For me, it's been very valuable, but I also know people that have lost their mind. I, I... 100% know people that used to be okay and did too much pot and got really, really deep into it-

Mariana van Zeller 20:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:48 ... and lost their grip of reality. And became... Either marijuana triggered schizophrenia or they had schizophrenia already and, but it was manageable-

Mariana van Zeller 20:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:58 ... you know, that it's probably variable-

Mariana van Zeller 21:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:00 ... in its intensity and what happens and then their experiences with marijuana pushed them over the edge.

Mariana van Zeller 21:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:07 And I think that's a real possibility.

Mariana van Zeller 21:09 Yeah. But I think you can apply that to a lot of things, right?

Joe Rogan 21:12 Yeah. Certainly with alcohol.

Mariana van Zeller 21:13 You can apply that to alcohol. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 21:13 Certainly, yeah, with gambling. So there's a... Yeah. It's... But again, that's a...

Mariana van Zeller 21:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:18 People have a hard time, you know, keeping it together.

Mariana van Zeller 21:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:22 And when something like marijuana comes along... But that doesn't mean that it should be illegal, that means there should be-

Mariana van Zeller 21:28 Oh.

Joe Rogan 21:28 ... some real counseling and there should be places that people can go where they can talk to someone and-

Mariana van Zeller 21:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:36 ... therapy and there's, there should be a way to-

Mariana van Zeller 21:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:39 ... make it legal.

Mariana van Zeller 21:40 I 100% agree. I mean, one thing we know is that the war on drugs hasn't worked. The billions of dollars that the United States has spent on the w- war on drugs has actually had the reverse effect. And as you know well, the biggest drug epidemic in America's history was created right here in America by the pharmaceutical companies.

Joe Rogan 21:57 Yes. Well, that's how I found out about you-

Mariana van Zeller 21:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:59 ... from the OxyContin Express.

Mariana van Zeller 22:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:02 That, that was so eye-opening. And when you did that... What, what channel were you guys on back then?

Mariana van Zeller 22:07 Current TV, it was Al Gore's television channel. Yeah. It was 9-9-

Joe Rogan 22:09 It was Al Gore's? (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 22:10 It was. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:10 That's hilarious. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 22:12 It was, it was actually a really interesting experience. So it was right before YouTube started.

Joe Rogan 22:16 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 22:16 And basically they were trying to... The idea was democratizing television. It was giving young kids out there a platform to go out there and explore the world and come back with these stories, so that's how I started. Um-

Joe Rogan 22:28 What year was this?

Mariana van Zeller 22:29 This was 2005 or '06.

Joe Rogan 22:33 Oh, wow.

Mariana van Zeller 22:34 2005 when, was when I started, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:36 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 22:37 Um, so a long time ago. And then YouTube came around. (laughs) It turns out that YouTube was a bigger success than-

Joe Rogan 22:42 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 22:42 ... Current TV. But I really... The show that I worked on was called Vanguard, and it was all these young journalists who... Both of us had just graduated but they basically gave us cameras and in my case, D- my husband at the time was my boyfriend, we both applied. They hired us both, and then we traveled all around the world. He would film, I would be on camera and then we'd come back, I'd edit, he'd write, we'd do these stories together.

Joe Rogan 23:04 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 23:04 And one of the stories we did was the prescription pill story, uh, the OxyContin Express, which is how we met.

Joe Rogan 23:10 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 23:10 Because he tweeted about it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:12 Well, I think your work really changed the way people were aware of that problem in Florida and they j- it changed the laws because-

Mariana van Zeller 23:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:20 ... they didn't have databases back then, which was 100% on, on purpose.

Mariana van Zeller 23:24 Yeah. So you could go from-

Joe Rogan 23:25 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 23:25 You could go doctor shopping.

Joe Rogan 23:26 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 23:26 You could go from pill mill to pill mill or pain clinic to pain clinic to buy prescription pills. The amazing thing is my husband is still reporting on this. His... Actually had a film on CNN that's coming al- on HBO Max, uh, in April, and it's called American Pain. So I don't know, do you remember the, the tw- the twins that were running American Pain? It was the biggest, uh, p- pill mill or, um, a prescription pain clinic in F- in South Florida, it's called American Pain. And it was run, run by these two twins who were born-

Joe Rogan 23:55 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 23:55 They were born conjoined twins at birth and then they ran a s- steroid business and they got in trouble and then they realized that actually they could make a lot more money from selling OxyContin than they could from selling steroids, so they opened this little small strip mall clin- uh, uh, pain clinic. And as you saw, you know, people started coming u- in from all over the country and buying and the doctors wouldn't even look at them and they were prescribing pills like it was Tic Tacs. And this... We s- we found out about them because we were reporting in Kentucky and we were with the sheriff who was, you know, overdoses all around them, people, you know, dying, devastating his community, and a lot of the-... pill bottles had this name, American Pain. And we started, we went down there and we took out the camera, and h- my husband took out the camera. And we ... The first shot we got immediately, within minutes, this big SUV came with two big guys who were threatening us and started yelling at us and telling us to leave, that we weren't allowed to film. So we drove off (laughs) and I'm driving, and this is actually in the film. Uh, but I'm driving and my husband's filming, and they're right behind us. And we, they, w- we decided to film this as the last thing. W- we were heading to the airport. And we're driving down I-95 to head to the airport, and they start following us. And then I realize I have very little g- gas.

Joe Rogan 25:11 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 25:11 So I stop at the gas station and they stop right behind us, and they come out of the car. And these were big guys. And the day before (laughs) , I'd, we'd been watching The Sopranos. (laughs) So in my mind, they were coming out guns a-blazing and they were gonna kill us both. (laughs) So I drove off. I was so nervous, and I drove off and they continued following us, and I didn't put gas in the car. So we're d-

Joe Rogan 25:31 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 25:31 ... on I-95 and we called 911 and said, "Hey, we're being followed by this car," and explained the situation. And then I ran out of gas.

Joe Rogan 25:40 Oh my God.

Mariana van Zeller 25:40 As we were filming. And I pulled over to the curb, but they were so sort of surpris- shocked. They had no i- confused by what was happening, that they just parked behind us and came out of ... And they never came out of the car, and then the police arrived. And then they made up an excuse that they thought I was an o- old girlfriend or something like that. But we ... My husband took down their license plates and found out their names, and it was the George brothers, Jeff and Chris George, who were running the biggest prescription, or pill mill, in America's history. They were making, I think something like $40 million a year out of this small little pill mill pain ... you know, strip mall clinic. And, uh, and it was incredible. And then, and then a year later, they were ... They're now do- ... They, one of them just left prison and the other one was, is still in prison. They're being arrested.

Joe Rogan 26:26 So those were the guys that were following you, the guys that own the organization?

Mariana van Zeller 26:29 That owned American Pain.

Joe Rogan 26:30 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 26:30 The organization was just a strip mall clinic, pain clinic-

Joe Rogan 26:33 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 26:34 ... with thousands of patients that would come in and out. And, you know, tons of doctors writing prescription pills. And when we were working at the time, or we'd been interviewing, uh, off the record, a DEA agent who didn't wanna go on the record, that we later found out was actually investigating them and they had wiretaps. So in my ... Darren's movie, uh, is the ... He got h- his hands on all the wiretaps. So you could hear them. And part of it, there's a part where they talk about us and our film and how we were trying to, uh, look into them. So it all sort of came-

Joe Rogan 27:07 Oh, so small.

Mariana van Zeller 27:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:07 That's it? South Florida Pain Clinic?

Mariana van Zeller 27:08 Yeah. So it ... South Florida Pain Clinic, and then they changed to a new location, a bigger location, and they called it, uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 27:14 South Florida Maybe?

Mariana van Zeller 27:14 Yep. That's it. And they-

Joe Rogan 27:15 God, it's such-

Mariana van Zeller 27:15 ... called it American Pain.

Joe Rogan 27:16 Such a s- ... What a great name, by the way.

Mariana van Zeller 27:19 Yeah. And that's-

Joe Rogan 27:19 American Pain.

Mariana van Zeller 27:20 And that's-

Joe Rogan 27:20 And those are the two brothers-

Mariana van Zeller 27:21 That's, that's-

Joe Rogan 27:21 ... down there with the fish?

Mariana van Zeller 27:22 ... the film. Yep. That's the two brothers.

Joe Rogan 27:24 Those are the guys that were chasing you?

Mariana van Zeller 27:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:26 Wow. Well, they found a loophole.

Mariana van Zeller 27:28 It's a crazy story. So they're in prison and Darren te- ... He sends them an email and says, "Hey, guys. Remember that guy that you chased down I-95?" (laughs) "I'm doing a film about you. Do you wanna be interviewed?" And they did.

Joe Rogan 27:39 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 27:39 It's a great film. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:41 What did they say? Did they just spill the beans about what they did and-

Mariana van Zeller 27:45 They talked a lot about sort of how they grew up and why they did it. Um, it's ... Y- yeah, I think it's interesting. One, they'd already gotten in trouble, so they had really nothing to lose at that point, and-

Joe Rogan 27:57 But what ... Wasn't what they were doing legal?

Mariana van Zeller 28:00 No. It was, uh, uh, what they were j- ... So that is the difficulty, and that's why actually so little peop- ... So there should've been a lot more people that went to prison. Unfortunately, they didn't. So the government gets you through other things, racketeering charges.

Joe Rogan 28:12 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 28:13 Bribery, mail fraud.

Joe Rogan 28:15 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 28:15 It's always these other ... That's the, you know, the biggest, I think, outrage about the whole opiate crisis, is that there have been almost no- no pharmaceutical executive that has been gone to prison. The pharmaceutical companies are the ones that were actually making the big money. Right? And it's not just the-

Joe Rogan 28:33 Of course.

Mariana van Zeller 28:33 ... Sacklers of Purdue.

Joe Rogan 28:34 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 28:34 It's also the generic companies that were making even more. And, uh, and no one w- went ... Nobody was actually t- tr- ... I mean, they ... Nothing practically happened to them. No one did time in prison, so ...

Joe Rogan 28:44 And it's so sad when you find out how many people lost their lives, and how many people o- ... even if they're alive, their lives are destroyed.

Mariana van Zeller 28:52 Oh. I mean, J- Joe, having traveled and ex- b- ... Uh, reported on this, um, the opiate crisis for so long, it's whole communities that have been devastated. It, it's, oh, it's horrible. It's the biggest sort of outrageous, um, thing that has happened (laughs) in America. And, uh, and it was made here. Again, we can blame others, but it was made here, and because we allowed it to happen.

Joe Rogan 29:15 It's just amazing the deception that was involved too. They, they tried to claim that they weren't addictive, and, and they were just passing them out to people.

Mariana van Zeller 29:23 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:23 And it's ... I mean, I, um, I had ... I talked before about this. I had my nose fixed. I had a deviated septum.

Mariana van Zeller 29:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:30 And, uh, when I got out of the, uh, operating room, um, I was, uh, g- kind of shocked that it wasn't painful. I was like, "This is fine. This is just a little-"

Mariana van Zeller 29:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:39 "... mildly uncomfortable." And the doctor tried to give me two different prescriptions for opiatess. And I was like, "Uh, I'm not gonna use those." Um, because I, I had had knee surgery and I, uh, also didn't take pain pills.

Mariana van Zeller 29:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:52 I don't mind pain. What I really don't like is feeling stupid.

Mariana van Zeller 29:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:57 And when I took, um ... I think it was ... I don't remember it was Percocets or Vicodin. I don't remember. But one of my first knee surgeries, they gave me, uh, one of those.

Mariana van Zeller 30:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:05 And I took it and I remember being on my couch when I lived in New York, and, uh, just sitting there watching TV like this, "Ugh."

Mariana van Zeller 30:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:13 Feeling so stupid and thinking, "Oh my God, I am never taking this shit again."

Mariana van Zeller 30:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:17 Like, "Whatever this is doing to me ..." It ... First of all, I don't think it really stopped the pain, 'cause I remember getting up 'cause I had to go to the bathroom, and I was ... It was like liquid fire-

Mariana van Zeller 30:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:27 ... was going through my knee. And I was like, "If it still fucking hurts-"

Mariana van Zeller 30:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:31 "... like this and I'm dumb as shit-"

Mariana van Zeller 30:32 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:32 "... like, I am not taking these anymore."

Mariana van Zeller 30:35 Yeah. I know. It's the, the ease with which they were dispensed and are still being dispensed to some degree.

Joe Rogan 30:39 My doctor was trying to force me to take them.

Mariana van Zeller 30:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:42 He was like, he was like, "Just ... You really should take these."

Mariana van Zeller 30:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:45 "Like, you're gonna be in pain." I go, "Well, s- ... It's just p- ... a little pain."

Mariana van Zeller 30:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:48 Like, "Is it worse than this right now?" And he goes, "It could be." I'm like, "How could it get worse? Why is it gonna get worse?"

Mariana van Zeller 30:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:54 Like, if it doesn't ... If it just i- is mildly uncomfortable now. I'm like ... So the doctor was just like, "You should take this." And I was like, "Why would I take that?" But I don't ... I wasn't e- ... I didn't understand why.... like, I, like, couldn't I come back to you if I'm in pain? Like, if I'm not-

Mariana van Zeller 31:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:09 ... in pain now, why do you want me? It was this weird conversation where it was like, I don't know if he was incentivized to try, to try to prescribe them, if he felt like it would be good for him. I, I didn't, I didn't understand it. Like, couldn't you just... If you wrote the prescriptions and I didn't take it, like, what do you care? But he wanted me to take 'em.

Mariana van Zeller 31:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:28 It was weird.

Mariana van Zeller 31:29 So strange. I mean, that's what was happening with OxyContin, that's what was happening later on, we did another story on fentanyl, that was what-

Joe Rogan 31:35 Ugh.

Mariana van Zeller 31:35 ... was happening with fentanyl too. You had a company, and, uh, that... We investigated one particular company and I think it's the only CEO of a company that... He's now in, in prison actually, for what he was doing. But yeah, he was bribing essentially, and he was charged with bribing. He was bribing doctors, and there was a quota and he was basically telling them, "If you prescribe more of our product..." Which was fentanyl, uh, a spr- a spray fentanyl called Sepsis. "If you prescribe more, we will give you more mo-" Uh, he, they were, they were, he was paying them up and take- taking them on trips, luxurious trips around the world and telling them, not only to prescribe this medication to people who have headaches and back pain-

Joe Rogan 32:16 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 32:16 ... and it, uh, well, medication that is made and FDA approved only for breakthrough cancer patients. But yet, you go to the doctor and you say you have a headache and this guy knows that he can get a kickback from the company and say, "Oh, you should take this, this drug, uh,-

Joe Rogan 32:29 How much of a kickback-

Mariana van Zeller 32:30 ... fentanyl."

Joe Rogan 32:30 ... back was it?

Mariana van Zeller 32:32 Oh. It was significant. It was in the thousands of dollars. Some doctors got hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Joe Rogan 32:37 Mm-hmm. And so they were incentivized?

Mariana van Zeller 32:39 Yeah, there was a big incentive to do it. Yeah, and they were also invited to these luxury-

Joe Rogan 32:43 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 32:43 ... vacations and to go, speaking fees. What they said is that they were paying them for speaking fees, which basically was good-

Joe Rogan 32:50 Bribes.

Mariana van Zeller 32:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:51 I have a good friend who used to be a pharmaceutical representative and he explained to me how it works, that he would not just know the doctor, but he got to know, he knew who the doctor's kids names were-

Mariana van Zeller 33:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:02 ... he would show up at their baseball games and he would give them gifts, he would take them out to dinners, and it was all about cultivating these relationships.

Mariana van Zeller 33:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:10 And that it was all about like, "I'm your friend." And you, you know, like, and you, they wanted to have this sort of weird cronyism, weird sort of relationship where even if it wasn't illegal, like clearly he was influencing them-

Mariana van Zeller 33:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:26 ... to sell more pills.

Mariana van Zeller 33:27 Mm-hmm. It's so crazy.

Joe Rogan 33:29 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 33:29 Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's crazy and it's crazy that it's still happening and I'm, it's just shocking that not more people have gotten in trouble because of it.

Joe Rogan 33:38 What has changed in Florida? Because they, they did change and they made a database, right?

Mariana van Zeller 33:42 Yeah. There's a database right now, which was the biggest thing that didn't... So they, you could go to 10 doctors in one day and get-

Joe Rogan 33:49 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 33:49 ... 150 pills from each doctor, and at the end of the day, you'd have 1,500 pills and no one would know about it. Uh, and then you'd grab those pills and go and sell them to other places of the country where you could get 20, 20 times more for the same drug. Um, yeah. So the database is r- and that, it's just much harder. I think there's... One of the things that, uh, I remember w- that we reported on, it, that you shouldn't be able to prescribe and dispense at the same location because it's a conflict of interest, right? If you have, if you're going to make money out of the selling, selling of those pills, you shouldn't ha- it shouldn't be at the same place where you're prescribing them.

Joe Rogan 34:24 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 34:24 Because then there's an incentive for you to prescribe because you're making money from the sale of those pills. Um, so that was happening in Florida as well and it's not allowed in a lot of other states.

Joe Rogan 34:34 And then the horrible truth is that a lot of those people became addicted and then they had to get it on the black market, so then they were getting fentanyl-

Mariana van Zeller 34:40 Heroin.

Joe Rogan 34:41 ... laced heroin.

Mariana van Zeller 34:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:42 And-

Mariana van Zeller 34:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:42 ... massive amount of overdoses.

Mariana van Zeller 34:44 Yeah. The progression was OxyContin and then it was fentan- and then it was heroin and then it became fentanyl.

Joe Rogan 34:50 (sighs) Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 34:51 Yeah. And it's still out there. And yet, you know, we talk about drugs, um, one of the episodes we did this season, um, was about, that's coming out soon, is about MDMA.

Joe Rogan 35:02 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 35:03 And we also looked at sort of the therapeutical side of MDMA, but one of the reasons why I became interested in reporting on D- MDMA... I grew up (laughs) with going to parties, that there was ecstasy all around me, never tried it. Knew some friends actually that tried it and it didn't go so well for them. They still have... Like you were talking about your friend with the weed-

Joe Rogan 35:22 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 35:23 ... how they went off the deep end a little bit.

Joe Rogan 35:24 Oh, they went off the deep end with MDMA?

Mariana van Zeller 35:26 Yeah. One, one friend I know that used to go to these parties, and I, I knew her w- well and she, um, yeah, she went off the deep end. Um, I haven't been in touch with her for a while, but it wasn't, it wasn't a good... It, uh, it doesn't hit everybody the same way. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:41 Well, not only that, uh, th- I think a lot of people were doing it almost every day. There's a, there was a lot of people that I had heard of-

Mariana van Zeller 35:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:47 ... that were going to these parties and raves and they were just, they just couldn't wait to get back to that state, because that state of being high on MDMA was so wonderful and so lovely and just so... You know, everyone was like dancing and touching each other's hands and hugging-

Mariana van Zeller 36:04 Have you tried it?

Joe Rogan 36:04 Yeah. Yeah, I tried it.

Mariana van Zeller 36:05 It's the love drug, right? It's called the love drug because of it.

Joe Rogan 36:07 Yeah. It re- removes all of your inhibitions.

Mariana van Zeller 36:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:10 You have zero inhibitions and you feel so nice and feel so-

Mariana van Zeller 36:14 Really?

Joe Rogan 36:14 Yeah. You so... You feel so... You've, uh, for... It's like you don't worry about anything, you're just filled with love. You know, it just, it just fills you with, I guess, dopamine and serotonin, right?

Mariana van Zeller 36:26 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:27 And you're just overwhelmed by it. And, and I was thinking, like imagine if you could, if this could be engineered where humans could have an elevated level of this all the time, you would have the most wonderful world, but probably nothing would get done.

Mariana van Zeller 36:44 (laughs) I was gonna say-

Joe Rogan 36:46 Yeah. (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 36:46 ... I'm sure there's a flip side to that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:48 (laughs) So are 100%... There's a flip side to everything.

Mariana van Zeller 36:50 (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 36:50 But if there was a way to... I was thinking, like, if there was a way to ge- to get, to maintain that state where you, you had an elevated level of, uh, serotonin, like people would treat people so much differently.

Mariana van Zeller 37:03 Yeah. I'm sure, yeah. There's a real... A- again, it was one of those drugs that when we, the episode we did, there's a lot of people who are real believers in MDMA-

Joe Rogan 37:11 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 37:11 ... and talk about it, how it's being used pharmacy, uh, therapeutically.... um, but obviously there's a flip side to that, too.

Joe Rogan 37:17 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 37:17 So, the reason we decided to investigate MDMA was because I got an email from my son's school in LA, and, uh, it was from a, uh, a h- uh, ba- basically warning parents that there'd been a kid in a school close by, a high schooler who died f- thinking they were taking an ecstasy pill and it was laced with fentanyl.

Joe Rogan 37:34 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 37:34 Really sad story. But it got me thinking, so w- where does ... Who's making ecstasy? Where is it being made? How is it being made? How is it getting here? And then I found out that the biggest ... I don't know if you know this, but the sort of the center, the best MDMA is actually coming from the Netherlands, in Europe.

Joe Rogan 37:48 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 37:49 And the drug business there, um, had sort of transformed the country into what many people call a narco state. Um, so journal- ... There was a f- a very high profile crime journalist called Peter R. de Vries who was killed as he was on the streets of Amsterdam, as he was coming out of work one day. Um, lawyers that were representing this guy that was w- a whistleblower for one of the big drug l- leaders, uh, was also killed. Um, so there's insane things happening, um, in, in Holland right now. And a lot of it because of the drug trade and partly because of MDMA. There were videos of, uh, torture chambers found. The police did a raid (laughs) on w- a place that was, uh, being used as torture chambers for rival groups. It's-

Joe Rogan 38:33 Oof.

Mariana van Zeller 38:33 ... crazy. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:33 We, we had heard about that. Who, who brought that up recently, Jamie? Someone brought that up about Moroccans and-

Mariana van Zeller 38:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:40 ... like-

Mariana van Zeller 38:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:41 ... the Netherland?

Mariana van Zeller 38:42 That's right.

Joe Rogan 38:42 Who was it? Was it Peter Zion? Peter Zion, was it? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure. It was fairly recently.

Mariana van Zeller 38:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:49 But yeah, that's terrifying. I- and that's what you get when things are illegal. You get organized crime.

Mariana van Zeller 38:54 That's right.

Joe Rogan 38:54 I mean, that was the prohibition in the United States.

Mariana van Zeller 38:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:56 The, the ... It propped up organized crime in the United States.

Mariana van Zeller 38:59 Yeah. So what happened in Portugal actually, we talked about how it was decriminalized and beca- why it was such a success is the rates of incarceration went immediately down. The rates of AIDS went down. People are basically given an option whether they want to go to rehab or if they're caught with a certain amount, over a certain amount, or if they want to, uh, go to prison. And of, of course most people just choose to go to rehab.

Joe Rogan 39:25 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 39:25 And you know, the rates of addiction have gone down. There are safe places for people to use drugs and it really has been an incredible success in Portugal. And I keep telling everyone who wants to listen to me that we should emulate that, or at least try to. Um, because-

Joe Rogan 39:39 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 39:40 ... this-

Joe Rogan 39:40 But I think we already are so deep in this problem in the United States, is that the cartels are bringing these drugs over here in such high numbers.

Mariana van Zeller 39:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:48 And they obviously have a very ruthless organized crime business and even if it's decriminalized, they're still gonna be controlling the supply and demand.

Mariana van Zeller 39:57 It's true. And it ... That happened with weed in, uh, in California.

Joe Rogan 40:00 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 40:00 So an episode we did last season was about weed and how the black market for weed, the illegal weed market, is actually three times bigger than the legal market, even after it's been legalized in California. And that is because the government has made it so difficult for people to get a license and so costly that they, people just decide to continue running their weed business illegally. They-

Joe Rogan 40:22 Well, not only that, but they've also made it so that growing marijuana even with the intent to distribute is just a misdemeanor. So if you are ... So there was a man named John Norris who we had on the podcast who, uh, wrote a book called Hidden Wars.

Mariana van Zeller 40:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:37 And he was a game warden and ... In California.

Mariana van Zeller 40:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:40 And so-

Mariana van Zeller 40:40 Oh, I listened to that pod-

Joe Rogan 40:41 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 40:41 It was really good. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:42 Really interesting, because his e- original job was just to find people that-

Mariana van Zeller 40:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:47 ... were violating fish and game laws.

Mariana van Zeller 40:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:48 Like catching too many fish or something like that.

Mariana van Zeller 40:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:50 And they found a creek that had dried up and it had been diverted to this illegal grow op on, you know, national land.

Mariana van Zeller 40:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:58 And that these, uh, forests-

Mariana van Zeller 40:59 Yeah. We, we filmed at some of them.

Joe Rogan 41:01 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 41:01 And it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 41:03 Crazy.

Mariana van Zeller 41:03 You're out ... We, we took ... The police went in. We went on a big raid with the police. They went in. They were rappelling down, helicopters. We had to hike in and it was hours and hours with all our gear to try to get to this place. It was in the middle of nowhere and it was, you know, fields and fields of-

Joe Rogan 41:17 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 41:17 ... illegal weed and it was all controlled by the cartel. We actually managed to speak to one of them that was there as a worker, and that's the really sad part of it.

Joe Rogan 41:25 Oh, yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 41:25 Is that a lot of them are just, you know-

Joe Rogan 41:27 Sure, they're just poor.

Mariana van Zeller 41:27 ... getting paid nothing for that, to work there.

Joe Rogan 41:28 Yeah. And they're risking their lives and they're camping out there.

Mariana van Zeller 41:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:32 Yeah. I have a friend who works on a ranch in California who discovered one of those.

Mariana van Zeller 41:36 Oh. Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 41:36 They ... Yeah. They, they stumbled upon these pipes, these plastic-

Mariana van Zeller 41:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:40 ... uh, pipes.

Mariana van Zeller 41:41 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 41:41 And these guys had carried these in-

Mariana van Zeller 41:43 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 41:43 ... 15, 20 miles on their backs.

Mariana van Zeller 41:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:46 And, and set this up. And he was like, "I- if they were doing something legal ... " I mean, th- these guys are hard workers.

Mariana van Zeller 41:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:52 Like you would say like, "This is a guy I'd wanna hire."

Mariana van Zeller 41:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:54 Like the ... How, uh ... How much ingenuity-

Mariana van Zeller 41:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:57 How much hard work and discipline to, to carry these things-

Mariana van Zeller 42:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:01 ... so deeply and, and to set this all up.

Mariana van Zeller 42:03 Mm-hmm. But that's the thing with all the black markets I feel like I, I investigate, that there is so much entre- entrepreneurship and-

Joe Rogan 42:09 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 42:10 ... uh, you know, these ... They're really smart and again, I think that a lot of them, if they were given ... Again, not all, but a lot of them, if they were given the legal route, they would've been amazing members of our society.

Joe Rogan 42:21 Yes, a lot of them.

Mariana van Zeller 42:22 Not all. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:23 But the people at the top though-

Mariana van Zeller 42:24 Oh no. Then, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:25 No. I mean, they're probably too far gone, down below with the crime.

Mariana van Zeller 42:27 But the people at the top wouldn't be at the top if they didn't have-

Joe Rogan 42:30 That's true.

Mariana van Zeller 42:31 ... people working and making-

Joe Rogan 42:32 That's true.

Mariana van Zeller 42:32 ... them money.

Joe Rogan 42:33 Yes. And-

Mariana van Zeller 42:34 And that's ... Those are the people though.

Joe Rogan 42:35 Yeah. And y- and yeah, that's the real problem with poverty, right?

Mariana van Zeller 42:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:39 The real problem with poverty is like it incentivizes people to do crime because they're so desperate.

Mariana van Zeller 42:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:44 That the, the life sucks so bad they're willing to do illegal things-

Mariana van Zeller 42:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:47 ... just to try to get by and, and do something-

Mariana van Zeller 42:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:50 ... to better themselves.

Mariana van Zeller 42:51 It's the inequality, uh, is the number one-

Joe Rogan 42:53 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 42:53 ... reason why the, these black markets exist. I always say that. Yeah. But another interesting thing, going back to weed, um, a scene we filmed which still blows my mind (laughs) was we filmed ... And this was a guy at the top. He was running a m- many million dollar worth, uh, illegal weed business. And he (laughs) was running it, or at least he was selling it, out of the, the uh, top floor of a, a building in downtown LA, um, which was a garage. Sort of an open garage. And he was ... It was ... We were there for I think two hours and there were dozens of cars that were coming in and buying bulks, like huge bags of il- all illegal weed. And he had his security guys with guns.

Joe Rogan 43:34 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 43:35 And this was out in the open on the top floor of this, uh, downtown apartment-

Joe Rogan 43:40 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 43:40 ... high-rise. It was insane.

Joe Rogan 43:42 Phew.

Mariana van Zeller 43:42 It was so crazy. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:44 Yeah. I mean, supply and demand, right?

Mariana van Zeller 43:46 Supply and demand, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:46 There's always gonna be someone that comes along that's willing to take a chance.

Mariana van Zeller 43:50 Yeah. And he, he had a real estate business apparently, and he told us that he was making a lot more money from his illegal black market weed business than he was from his real estate business.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Is that guy still out on the streets?

Mariana van Zeller 44:01 Uh, the last time (laughs) we spoke to him was a year and a half ago, and he was doing great. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:05 He's doing great.

Mariana van Zeller 44:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:07 Yeah. And then they have to figure out a way to launder that money.

Mariana van Zeller 44:09 Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, it's so... Yeah, I, I started being, I started asking now almost everybody we interview, because I'm fascinated by that, like, "What do you do with your money?" Right? If, you know, we interview... One of the episodes we did this season was about, uh, um, crypto scams. Um, and we spent time with these, like, three 20-something-year-olds who made millions of dollars out of crypto scams. And these... Have you heard of rug pulls?

Joe Rogan 44:35 Rug pulls?

Mariana van Zeller 44:36 A rug pull?

Joe Rogan 44:36 No.

Mariana van Zeller 44:38 So, they would put out these tokens. They would invent this token, imagine, and we'd call this token the Joe Rogan Token.

Joe Rogan 44:43 Mm-hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 44:43 And, uh, they would get people, and they would start with a certain seed money that they'd put in. And then they would... This is in the DeFi market. Do you know anything about crypto?

Joe Rogan 44:53 A little bit.

Mariana van Zeller 44:54 Yeah. So, there is the DeFi market, which is more unregulated, um, market, and where you have all these tokens, uh, which is not Bitcoin or Ethereum, it's another... It's, uh, more unregulated. And you have these tokens, and you can go and buy these tokens. And there's PR people that are out there sell- telling you that this is the new hottest token-

Joe Rogan 45:13 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 45:13 ... and you're gonna, you can make money overnight. So, you build, you set out, you launch this Joe Rogan Token, you put some seed money on it. You start, you get a PR person to go out there and get celebrities, uh, you know, putting out social media posts about how this new Joe Rogan Token is the shit, and you should absolutely buy it. And people start buying it, and after a few weeks, they basically sell all their shares and the value, the price goes down. But they've, what they made, they invested, I don't know, like $100 and they've made millions of dollars. And so people are left with nothing.

Joe Rogan 45:46 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 45:46 It's a rug pull. And these kids told us that they were making, you know, millions and millions of dollars. Um, and so, yeah, one of the biggest questions I had, "So what are you using, uh, how do you launder this money? How are you..." Because obviously ... And, I mean, they were flying private. They rented a huge mansion in Dubai. They were there for the Crypto Convention.

Joe Rogan 46:07 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 46:07 And, uh, and yeah, they, they were investing heavily in real estate (laughs) and in other businesses. Um, restaurants-

Joe Rogan 46:16 Hmm.

Mariana van Zeller 46:16 ... and businesses like that. It's really fascinating.

Joe Rogan 46:19 Phew.

Mariana van Zeller 46:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:20 Yeah. That, the crypto market is very bizarre.

Mariana van Zeller 46:23 It's-

Joe Rogan 46:24 You know, this whole, uh, FTX, um, thing with Sam Bankman-Fried.

Mariana van Zeller 46:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:29 I'm just fascinated by that.

Mariana van Zeller 46:31 Mm-hmm. Me too.

Joe Rogan 46:31 Fascinated by it. And I was reading a thing today about the, the new CEO who was hired to untangle it.

Mariana van Zeller 46:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:38 And, and find out what was going on. And his d- depictions, uh, he said it was just 100% old-fashioned embezzlement.

Mariana van Zeller 46:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:45 And that these people, uh, d- had none of the fails- fail-safes and none of the protection that you would normally give to people investing their money. And they were just moving money around.

Mariana van Zeller 46:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 46:56 And they were all on speed.

Mariana van Zeller 46:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:58 And just-

Mariana van Zeller 46:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:00 ... uh, having sex with each other-

Mariana van Zeller 47:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:01 ... all together in this one house.

Mariana van Zeller 47:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:02 Nine of them just wild.

Mariana van Zeller 47:04 Oh my God.

Joe Rogan 47:06 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 47:06 There's a documentary being done with, uh, we looked into it-

Joe Rogan 47:08 On them?

Mariana van Zeller 47:08 ... because I am fascinated, about him, yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:10 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 47:11 Right now, I think.

Joe Rogan 47:12 He's fucked.

Mariana van Zeller 47:14 Yeah, I think so.

Joe Rogan 47:14 They're gonna make an example out of him.

Mariana van Zeller 47:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:16 And what's crazy is that they were the number two donor to the Democratic Party.

Mariana van Zeller 47:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:20 So, by doing that, they, you know, thought they probably had some sort of protection.

Mariana van Zeller 47:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:25 Probably would have-

Mariana van Zeller 47:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:27 ... if that other guy from, uh, Coin, what is it, uh, Binance, the Binance guy hadn't sank their battleship.

Mariana van Zeller 47:34 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was crazy.

Joe Rogan 47:35 It's all wild.

Mariana van Zeller 47:36 Did, did you invest in crypto?

Joe Rogan 47:37 No.

Mariana van Zeller 47:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:38 No. I have a little bit of Bitcoin, very little.

Mariana van Zeller 47:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 47:41 But it's like, I watch it go up, I watch it go down, like, "Ugh."

Mariana van Zeller 47:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:45 What do you do with that?

Mariana van Zeller 47:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:46 You know?

Mariana van Zeller 47:47 Yeah, same here.

Joe Rogan 47:48 Yeah. We, uh, sold a lot of it or, um, cashed out a lot of it to give to, um, Fight for the Forgotten. They were, uh, it's a-

Mariana van Zeller 47:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:57 ... a charity that, uh, one of the guests on my podcast, uh, Justin Wren, had created to, uh, build, uh, wells for the pygmies in the Congo. So-

Mariana van Zeller 48:05 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 48:05 ... it went to good.

Mariana van Zeller 48:06 Oh, that's great.

Joe Rogan 48:07 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 48:07 I just came from the Congo.

Joe Rogan 48:08 Did you really?

Mariana van Zeller 48:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:09 What were you there for?

Mariana van Zeller 48:09 I'm doing a story on ape trafficking-

Joe Rogan 48:11 Oh.

Mariana van Zeller 48:11 ... and actually spent time with the pygmies. Um-

Joe Rogan 48:15 Ape trafficking?

Mariana van Zeller 48:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:16 Like, what it-

Mariana van Zeller 48:17 Yeah. Apes are being trafficked, um-

Joe Rogan 48:19 So people are selling them?

Mariana van Zeller 48:20 ... gorillas, chimpanzees, uh, they're illegally being snatched. Um, baby gorillas go for tens of thousands of dollars. And-

Joe Rogan 48:27 What do people do with them?

Mariana van Zeller 48:29 They sell them to private zoos and people who just wanna have animals in their houses. A lot of them end up in the UAE. Um, and it's, uh, yeah, it's very, very sad.

Joe Rogan 48:39 Private zoos?

Mariana van Zeller 48:40 Mm-hmm. People who have, don't know what to do with their money and they like exotic animals. And so they own chimpanzees and even gorillas. It's crazy, uh-

Joe Rogan 48:49 I remember when I had Mike Tyson on, he was explaining to me how he got into, uh, lions.

Mariana van Zeller 48:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:55 L- lions and tigers.

Mariana van Zeller 48:56 And tigress, yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:56 And, uh, it was basically, I think, wasn't he saying that he was talking to a guy about cars? And the guy was, you know, like what kind of cars he wants to buy. And uh, the guy was like, "Hey, you want a lion?" (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 49:07 Really? And that's how he got into it?

Joe Rogan 49:10 Yeah, Mike had, Mike had tigers.

Mariana van Zeller 49:11 Yeah, I remember.

Joe Rogan 49:12 Yeah, which is just insane. And apparently when you have a tiger, the tiger will listen to you-

Mariana van Zeller 49:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:17 ... but no one else.

Mariana van Zeller 49:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:19 Which is terrifying.

Mariana van Zeller 49:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:20 So, you have this, uh, enormous predatory animal that you don't let kill things-

Mariana van Zeller 49:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:24 ... and has these deep genetic desires to catch things-

Mariana van Zeller 49:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:30 ... and kill them.

Mariana van Zeller 49:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:31 I mean, that's literally what they're, it's like taking...... I'm- I mean, it's taking a- a creature that has a genetic propensity for a very specific thing and denying them that thing, and then hoping that they don't revert.

Mariana van Zeller 49:45 Yeah. I- it's insane. It's (laughs) everything that's wrong with... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:50 Well, it's crazy. Do you know that there's more tigers in captivity-

Mariana van Zeller 49:53 I do.

Joe Rogan 49:53 ... in Texas than there are in all the wild of the world?

Mariana van Zeller 49:56 I do. We did a story on tigers too. And we spent-

Joe Rogan 49:58 Texas has the number one population-

Mariana van Zeller 50:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:00 ... of tigers in captivity in private collections.

Mariana van Zeller 50:03 Yeah. It's crazy. We visited that Doc Antle. Uh-

Joe Rogan 50:06 What's that?

Mariana van Zeller 50:06 The Doc Antle, do you remember? D- If you s- did you watch Tiger King?

Joe Rogan 50:10 I did.

Mariana van Zeller 50:11 So we were filming with, uh ... We talked to Joe Exotic and Doc Antle. Do you remember Doc Antle? He was-

Joe Rogan 50:17 Which one was he? Is he the guy that ran the sex cult?

Mariana van Zeller 50:20 He's the one that has the safari kind of ... Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:21 Is he the guy, the weird guy-

Mariana van Zeller 50:22 He's the one with several wives.

Joe Rogan 50:23 ... that had all the girls?

Mariana van Zeller 50:24 There were girls, yeah. That's the one.

Joe Rogan 50:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 50:25 So we were filming that before Tiger King came out, um, and actually Tiger King was great because a lot of people wanted to watch our doc because Tiger King became so popular. But we did, yeah, we did an episode about that, and the i- d- it all started because the idea that there are more tigers in captivity in the United States. I- i- per- te- in Texas, to be even more precise. I didn't know that it was just in Texas, but in the US.

Joe Rogan 50:45 Well, there's ... They have them in Oklahoma and oth-

Mariana van Zeller 50:47 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:47 But Texas has some pretty wacky laws-

Mariana van Zeller 50:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:49 ... when it comes to the ownership of animals.

Mariana van Zeller 50:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:51 There's a- a- a ... And in many ways, it's a success story for some animals.

Mariana van Zeller 50:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:57 Like, there's animals like oryx that are, um, endangered in their natural habitat-

Mariana van Zeller 51:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:02 ... but are prevalent and hunted in Texas.

Mariana van Zeller 51:05 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:05 It's very strange. Like, I- I went to a ranch in South Texas recently to, uh, hunt, uh, wild white-tailed deer and an animal called nilgai.

Mariana van Zeller 51:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:14 Which is an Indian animal-

Mariana van Zeller 51:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:15 ... that, uh, evolved around tigers. This i- uh, uh, crazy animal, real bizarre-looking animal, but, um, they're all over the place. They have so many of them here, and, um, b- they- they just have these enormous ranches, tens of thousands of acres, and they have all these animals from other countries there. Like, you ... We were driving around, we th- saw lechwe's-

Mariana van Zeller 51:38 Wow.

Joe Rogan 51:38 ... and, um, a- oryx and a- all these, like, bizarre exotics.

Mariana van Zeller 51:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:43 They're all over Texas.

Mariana van Zeller 51:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:45 And, uh, the thing about them is, there's no, uh, hunting regulations in terms of, like, wildlife conservation will put limits and tag limits on animals.

Mariana van Zeller 51:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:55 Because they're controlling the population and they- they wanna make sure that the populations are healthy, and so, like, if you're in an area, like, uh, say if you want to, uh, hunt mule deer in a very, uh, protected specific area, there's thousands of people apply for tags-

Mariana van Zeller 52:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:10 ... but a very limited number of people get them, and there's a very specific area you can hunt in, and th- this is all done, and that money all goes to wildlife conservation. It all goes- goes to park rangers and protecting habitat-

Mariana van Zeller 52:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:22 ... and it's a very successful and really well-organized and- and well-funded, uh, plan. In Texas, there's none of that. It's private property. So you can hunt these animals 365 days a year.

Mariana van Zeller 52:35 Wow.

Joe Rogan 52:35 And they're owned by the people who own the property.

Mariana van Zeller 52:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:39 S- uh, but again, in many ways, it's a success story because by giving these animals value, they have an incentive to keep their population strong and healthy.

Mariana van Zeller 52:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:48 And so you have this enormous population of these exotic animals here.

Mariana van Zeller 52:52 Right, which is what they're trying to do in places like the Congo and Rwanda, where they, you can still find gorillas, for example.

Joe Rogan 52:59 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 52:59 It's giving them value so instead of hunting them, there is money going to the people who are currently hunting them, hopefully. The pygmies was an example of that. It was really sort of sad, um, because they, uh ... We spent time filming with them and they are involved in the hunting of gorillas, um, and chimpanzees, and, uh, uh, their story in particular, I mean, they are from a- a lot of these protected parks, and since the parks became protected, the government is telling them that they can't live anymore there. But this is their life.

Joe Rogan 53:32 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 53:32 This is what their, you know, generations and generations before them, this is what they did. And it's not as if they can go to the cities and find a job either, um, so there is obviously an enormous incentive for them to hunt, uh, illegally and, uh, kill and sell some of these endangered animals. Um, so I think, you know, one of the things that you see that are s- examples of success are when you make them, uh, profitable for them to be alive, so having tourists come in, having, you know, safe conditions for tourists to come in and see some- spend time with these tiger- with these animals. Going and seeing the gorillas was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I recommend it to anyone if you're remotely interested (laughs) in traveling to Rwanda or Congo. It was incredible.

Joe Rogan 54:15 So you saw them in the wild?

Mariana van Zeller 54:17 In the wild, yeah. So you hike and you don't know exactly where they are. You go on ... We went with park rangers. We left at, like, 6:00 AM in the morning. They knew where they had been the day before, but in the meantime, uh, 16 hours have passed and they have no idea where they are. They're not tracking them with trackers or anything. So then we start hiking up this mountain and these are lowland gorillas, eastern gorillas. They're an endangered species of beautiful animals. And, uh, we're tracking them and then they start seeing ... They start from the place where they'd seen them the day before, and then they sort of follow their trace and they, you know, see where they have pooped (laughs) and where, uh, where they have eaten, broken branches, and it was, I don't know, three hours with all our heavy equipment, tracking them and trying to see until we finally ... There's a moment that, for us, it's completely exhilarating after you're hot and you're bitten by mosquitoes and you're exhausted and we weren't sure maybe we're not ... Maybe we're gonna be the only people who are not gonna see- going to see gorillas. And finally, we get to this corner in this place and this, uh, the park ranger says, "Oh," uh, completely nonchalantly (laughs) says, "Oh, it's right here." And we, "Wha- ..." And right behind a bush, there was a gigantic silverback, a male, uh, gorilla, and a family, the female and a bunch of little kid- babies, including a little b- a baby that was born two weeks before us, and we were the first ones to ever film the little baby, and it was a ... Yeah, g- the mo- mother carrying the baby around, and then there was that one moment we were all together and you have to sort of be quiet-... obviously, you don't want to start yelling next to the gorillas 'cause you can, uh, scare them. Um, but it's, yeah, it's, we were from here to you, me to you-

Joe Rogan 55:56 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 55:56 ... right now. This, this is how close we were to the gorillas. It was really-

Joe Rogan 55:59 How dangerous is that?

Mariana van Zeller 56:00 They had never suffered any attacks by the gorillas. The gorillas have sort of gotten used to having people around them. You can't, there's obviously rules. You can't start jumping in front of them, or you shouldn't try to touch them. And, uh, it depends on, there's different, um, sort of, uh, uh, responses that you should have for different gorillas. With the lowland gorillas, um, uh, with, I can't remember, but I think with the low land, land gorillas, you actually have to be, um, um, you can look them in the eye. There's the other gorillas that are in Rwanda that you shouldn't look them in the eye.

Joe Rogan 56:30 Oh, really?

Mariana van Zeller 56:31 That you have to look down, and I actually had experienced that before as well. So I'm incredibly privileged that I've been, I've seen gorillas twice. But with these gorillas, you're actually supposed to look them in the eye. I think that's right.

Joe Rogan 56:42 Really?

Mariana van Zeller 56:42 But yeah, it's really, it was an ama- amazing experience. But you're, obviously you're not supposed to go up to them and touch them or-

Joe Rogan 56:48 Right.

Mariana van Zeller 56:48 And as we were filming, um, our producer was sort of behind me, and he was a little bit on this open trail, or this patch that was, um, you know, the, the gorillas had gone through, so it was kind of no bro- brush there. And, uh, and suddenly, one of the big gorillas that he, we had an idea was there came behind him, and was fast and fast approaching. And, uh, he had to like jump out of his place, and it was a, a really close encounter. But he wasn't coming to attack him or anything. He was just co- trying to pass through. But they're massive animals, massive. Um, so but yeah, they have never suffered any attacks, and it's really an spectacular experience.

Joe Rogan 57:25 There's a video that I saw of these, uh, men that are in this gorilla habitat, and this gorilla walks through and grabs one of the men and just drags him-

Mariana van Zeller 57:36 I saw that.

Joe Rogan 57:37 ... like you would pick up a laptop bag and just move it a little bit. He just, almost like just letting him know, like, "Hey man, I'll just drag you a little bit."

Mariana van Zeller 57:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:45 "Just to let you know."

Mariana van Zeller 57:46 We all joked that, that my producer-

Joe Rogan 57:47 This is it.

Mariana van Zeller 57:47 Oh, yeah.

Narrator 57:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:48 So this gorilla walks up. I mean, it's, this is silverback.

Mariana van Zeller 57:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:52 And look at the size of him.

Mariana van Zeller 57:53 I know. It's-

Joe Rogan 57:53 So he grabs this man by the leg.

Mariana van Zeller 57:55 And he's a gor- yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:56 And just drags him.

Mariana van Zeller 57:56 It's a park ranger, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:58 And just lets him go. And look at, look at his face, like, "Okay."

Mariana van Zeller 58:01 (laughs) Look at that.

Joe Rogan 58:01 "Okay."

Mariana van Zeller 58:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:03 "Okay."

Mariana van Zeller 58:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:04 I mean, can you imagine the feeling of one of those things grabbing ahold of your leg and just pulling you like you weigh nothing?

Mariana van Zeller 58:10 It's insane, yeah. We all sent around this video joking that our producer is called Paul and he was the one that got the close encounter. You think that was-

Joe Rogan 58:18 (laughs) Could have been you.

Mariana van Zeller 58:18 ... next time we go, it could have been him.

Joe Rogan 58:20 Um, so, so people are taking those gorillas and stealing them?

Mariana van Zeller 58:24 Stealing them and, for example, chimpanzees are super protective, as are gorillas, of their families and their kids.

Joe Rogan 58:30 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 58:31 And, uh, and so what happens is that a lot of times you have to kill the mother in order to be able to take the baby. So it's, when you're stealing one, it's not just one. Sometimes it's the whole family that dies so that you can take the baby with you.

Joe Rogan 58:42 Oh, God.

Mariana van Zeller 58:42 But the, these chimps can go for tens of thousands of dollars.

Joe Rogan 58:45 Wow.

Mariana van Zeller 58:45 And so there's a real incentive there, and we ended up speaking with a guy who bought the chimps from the hunters and then was selling them, was sort of a middleman, um, and was telling us how he carries them, how he transports them, all of it. It's really horrible.

Joe Rogan 59:00 How much of a demand is there for these things?

Mariana van Zeller 59:02 Apparently, a gigantic dem- demand.

Joe Rogan 59:05 Really?

Mariana van Zeller 59:05 Mm-hmm. And there's videos out there that you can see on Instagram and YouTube with people, a little less now, but just, just a few, but it still exists, but a few years ago, um, people posting photos of them with their private gorillas and chimpanzees-

Joe Rogan 59:19 Really?

Mariana van Zeller 59:19 ... that they just bought.

Joe Rogan 59:20 And a lot of it is UAE, you were saying?

Mariana van Zeller 59:22 A lot of it is UAE. Yeah. Right now, the trade is, a lot of it is UAE, and yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:28 And they have private zoos. Did you visit any of these private zoos?

Mariana van Zeller 59:32 We tried. We got denied access. Um, we didn't get a visa to go to Dubai, unfortunately, to film it. We wanted to, but we didn't get a visa.

Joe Rogan 59:41 So in Dubai, they have these private zoos.

Mariana van Zeller 59:43 Mm-hmm. We, we know of a few of them that we heard, and we wanted to go visit and ask questions and see, continue our investigation to find if any of them had come from the Congo.

Joe Rogan 59:52 And these, who are these people that have these private zoos? Just really, really wealthy people?

Mariana van Zeller 59:57 Some, some are not even public zoos. So it's private, so it's just for them and their friends. Um, there are others that have parks, you know, a little bit like Doc Antle's Safari Park, where people can come and pay and visit the wild animals. Um, yeah, all sorts. And some people like to post it on Instagram, and or, or people pay to go and take selfies with these animals, which I'm still, I cannot believe that this is still a thing that happens today. People pay and want to take selfies with wild animals.

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 (sighs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:28 Very sad. Because it's incentivizing the trade is what it's doing.

Joe Rogan 1:00:31 Did, had you heard anything when you were in the Congo about those, uh, extraordinarily large chimps? The, the Bondo apes?

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:38 No. The Bondo apes? No.

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 Yeah. There's, um, there's like a subspecies of chimpanzee that's enormous.

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 They're much larger, and the, the locals have two categories that they, they call, uh, the smaller chimps, um, uh, tree beaters 'cause they're up in the trees.

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:56 And the, the bottom ones they call lion killers.

Mariana van Zeller 1:00:59 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 And they nest on the ground like gorillas, and they're huge.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:02 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Yeah, there's, uh, a, I think he's from Switzerland, a wildlife photographer named Carl Amman, and he was one of the first people to, uh, to definitely document these things.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:14 Mm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:15 Because there had been old photos from like the 1920s, these black and white photos of these ones that they had killed that were huge. And there's one famous photo of these two men that are at a, see, that's one of them.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:29 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 But that's not even the biggest one. There's one, that one up there, that one. Look at the size of that thing.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:35 Wow. That does not look like a chimp.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 I know. It's enormous.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:38 Huge.

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 And that one they kill, they call it the Bili ape, the Bondo ape.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:42 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 And they have a crest on their skull like a, like a gorilla does.... and so initially, they thought that they were a hybrid.

Mariana van Zeller 1:01:50 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:51 That, that one is one of them that was walking upright, that photo, uh, to the left of that, Jamie, the one down, down, down below that. Right there. That one. That one, um, was, uh, a, a photo that they took with a camera trap, so like, it w- it walked-

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:07 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:07 ... by upright and they saw this, uh, one walk across the road and they said it's six feet tall. A six-foot-tall chimpanzee-

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:16 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 ... that was, you know, hundreds and hundreds of pounds.

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Rea- you know, and they-

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:21 And endangered? I'm sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:23 Well, they don't know how many of them there are.

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:25 And there was a lot of speculation as to whether or not they even existed, but now they have bones, they have tissue, they have, they know it's a chimpanzee.

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:32 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:02:32 And they have video of these things and they're just, uh, they're enor- they c- they have video of one of them eating a jaguar.

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:39 No way.

Joe Rogan 1:02:40 Yeah. Or excuse me, a leopard.

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:42 That is crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:02:42 'Cause it's in Africa. Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Yeah, so they don't know if it killed it or if they found it dead and it w- they were eating it, but-

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:48 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 But they call them lion killers. Like, that's, they c-

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:51 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 But can you imagine a chimpanzee that's six feet tall-

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:02:54 ... you know, 400 pounds?

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:55 Because they're super aggressive. Chimp can, they can be.

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 Yes.

Mariana van Zeller 1:02:58 Chimpanzees in general can be super aggressive.

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 They're like us.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:01 Just like us.

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 Closest to us.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:02 They're closest to us. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:03 Which is really fascinating because then you have the bonobos-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 ... that are also really close to the grade to us-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:09 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 ... and they're all about sex.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:10 Just peace and love.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:11 And they only exist in the Congo.

Joe Rogan 1:03:13 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:14 I didn't know they were all about sex, though. Is it-

Joe Rogan 1:03:15 Well, they have so much sex with each other.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:17 Huh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 They, like, have sex to solve, uh, problems, to s- to, to resolve issues. The, uh, they have s-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:23 So they're like, they're like chimps on MDMA?

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Yeah, something like that. (laughs) I mean, w- I wonder what's different about them.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 It's really interesting because they're like the peaceful chimps, but they, uh, they only, w- the mother will not have sex with her son. That's it. The, the father-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:36 Oh, the rest is-

Joe Rogan 1:03:36 ... will have sex with the daughters. The father will have sex with the sons.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:39 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 The sons will have sex with the brothers-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 ... and sisters. They'll have sex with each other, but they w- the mother will not have sex with her sons, which is very fascinating.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:46 Really fascinating.

Joe Rogan 1:03:47 They have rules, like, "Get outta here, kid."

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:49 I had, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:50 I didn't know that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:51 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:52 Yeah, apes. It's, uh, it was a really fascinating journey.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 But I would think that that animal in specific, you're a super wealthy individual and you wanted to get-

Mariana van Zeller 1:03:59 You'd want that.

Joe Rogan 1:03:59 ... one of those giant chimps-

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 ... for your collection.

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:01 Yeah, because the, the, the rarer they are, the more you think you're-

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:06 ... special because you own this very rare animal.

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 So is it mostly, uh, chimps and gorillas, or do, is, is it orangutans and monkeys as well?

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:14 Our investigation was into the great apes. Yeah, so chimps, gorillas, bonobos, um, and they are in high demand and again, they go for hundreds of thousands of dollars. And yeah, I think y- we tend to usually point the finger at the hunters and the middlemen, um, the people that are catching these and killing, but I think the finger should always be pointed at where the demand comes from-

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 Sure.

Mariana van Zeller 1:04:37 ... and who are the people, because those are the peo- that, that, you know, it's, to me, I do not understand somebody who just wants to have a wild animal that came from the wild in then- their backyard. But I do understand why a pygmy or a poor guy without any other opportunities in the Congo, when given the chance to bring money for their families, they would do so.

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 Of course. Yeah, I mean, no doubt. But it's just, it's such a disturbing part of human nature that they would be willing to do that, especially to an animal that they know is so endangered, that they'd wanna have a giant park in their backyard where they keep these things.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:15 It's, I don't understand it. But it, the fact that it exists here in the US too, again, we can say it's all happening in places like the UAE and China, but we have these safari parks and these-

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 Mm-hmm. Well, we have zoos.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:26 ... um, you know, private zoos here.

Joe Rogan 1:05:28 What about public zoos?

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:29 I mean, I, I talked yesterday on the podcast about going to a zoo once and it was the saddest thing, um, where this monkey was wailing, just screaming, like it, like, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is like going to a prison-"

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 "... and there's someone alone in their cell just screaming." And so, because it was this tiny little-

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:48 ... cage that's about the size of this room, and you have this poor monkey that's just trapped in there.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:52 Yeah, it's horrible.

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:53 Yeah, it's horrible.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Uh, just regular zoos are fucked.

Mariana van Zeller 1:05:55 Yeah. They're, yeah, I'm not a big fan either. We went to a few, like, sanctuaries for, uh, chimpanzees and apes in the Congo and it was, um, we had the chance of spending time with some baby chimps and they're adorable. (laughs) But one of the things, th- and they'll jump, they basically ja- they jumped on me and my whole crew. They were hugging us.

Joe Rogan 1:06:16 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:17 Um, so they're really sweet, so you understand why people maybe would think that, "Oh, they really like to spend time with human beings. They would love to be our pets." But that's just not the case.

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 Especially when they get older.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 Then they get very dangerous.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:29 Yeah, and then they kill them or-

Joe Rogan 1:06:31 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:31 ... sell them.

Joe Rogan 1:06:33 So, um-

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:34 Or poach them.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 ... this, this market, like, how many people are out there that have the means to do this? That's what's bizarre, like that there was actually-

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:43 To purchase them?

Joe Rogan 1:06:43 Oh, I can imagine if like one really rich guy wanted to do that, but the fact that it's an actual market.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:48 Oh, it is. Um, I think that once y- you know, once you have your big house, once you have your exotic cars-

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 Mm.

Mariana van Zeller 1:06:54 ... then you're thinking what else you can get. I think that's the case for a lot of them, and unfortunately again, the idea that you're taking f- all these photos and posting them on social media, I think unfortunately social media's had a terrible negative effect on this, um, because people think it's fun to take photos with all sorts of exotic animals and then they think, you know, once you have money, "Oh, I'm going to own this. I'm going to buy this and put it in a cage and when my friends come over, they're going to be impressed by the fact that I own this tiger or this lion or this gorilla."

Joe Rogan 1:07:24 But I imagine it'd be, be very dangerous for you to be exposing that.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:29 Um, it always is with all the stories-

Joe Rogan 1:07:32 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:32 ... we do. There's always a component of a lot of people there that don't want us to do those stories, for sure. Um, yeah, I mean, gaining access to these worlds is the hardest part of my job, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 Do you worry about coming on shows like this-

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:44 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 ... that you're gonna become famous? Like have you been spotted?

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:48 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:48 Has, has anybody ever said, "Oh, you're that lady from the TV show."

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:50 All the time. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 Really?

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:51 It happens a lot, particularly in airports for some reason, I think, they associate the travel-

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 Well, that's better than the Congo.

Mariana van Zeller 1:07:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) It's true.... I'm huge in the Congo.

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 (laughs)

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:01 So, in airports, you get noticed?

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:02 No. But it actually ... It's funny that you say that because it has helped me in some way, where I get a lot of messages from people who want to be on the show. So, they send me videos of their guns, and their drugs-

Joe Rogan 1:08:12 Oh, boy.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:13 ... and the illicit businesses they are involved in.

Joe Rogan 1:08:15 Oh, boy.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:15 It is really-

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 They're all meth'd up and going, "Hey, I'm gonna contact Marianna."

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:18 Yeah. Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:08:19 You know?

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:19 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 "I'm gonna get famous."

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:20 Yeah. "I want to be on your show."

Joe Rogan 1:08:22 Oh, that's strange.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:22 Yeah. Or, "You have no idea-" But then, there's also the people that say, uh, "You should do a story about ..." You know, all the conspiracy theories that exist out there, or people who tell me, like, "I have a story to tell," and I share my, my email. It's like, "Okay, great." And it's really ... And then it's, you know, it's like-

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 Like, what are the crazy ones?

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:39 Oh. It's, uh, "The government and the CIA is after me and they're checking me out."

Joe Rogan 1:08:44 Ah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:44 "And all of our information is, uh ..." Which actually is true. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:48 It's true.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:49 Entirely crazy. But, uh, but I think people who have, you know, who're not out there and, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:08:54 That's the problem with conspiracies is so many of them are real.

Mariana van Zeller 1:08:58 Yeah. Yeah. I know, I know. But I think I was ... Uh, we started this conversation with this story about guns. That is the one story that whenever I do anything about guns I get a lot of hate, a lot of hate.

Joe Rogan 1:09:08 I'm sure.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:09 And it's threats and it's people saying, you know, really mean and evil things.

Joe Rogan 1:09:14 Yeah.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:14 And, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:09:15 Have you seen the video? There's a video that's going around now, it was shared on Twitter a lot yesterday. It was, um, some people in the 1970s, when they started making laws about drinking and driving-

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09:27 ... that you couldn't drink while you were driving. And these people are like, "They're gonna turn us into Communists."

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:33 You know, but, like, these people were defending, like-

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:35 Drinking and driving?

Joe Rogan 1:09:36 Yeah. That you have ... Come on. Work 12 hours, I wanna have a few beers and drive home.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:40 That's so funny.

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 And it's like-

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:41 I remember the same thing happened, uh, when, uh, when they-

Joe Rogan 1:09:45 See if you can find that video.

Narrator 1:09:45 I don't know ... I wasn't gonna pull it up earlier when you guys were talking about something else.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:48 That's so great.

Joe Rogan 1:09:49 Have you seen it?

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:49 No, I haven't.

Joe Rogan 1:09:49 It's pretty wild.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:50 I wanna see it.

Joe Rogan 1:09:50 It's like early Trump supporters.

Mariana van Zeller 1:09:52 Yeah.