CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 1:11
Coyotes as neighbors: why they stopped howling and how they raid backyards
Joe and Dan begin with coyotes’ urban savvy—especially the idea that coyotes learn to avoid drawing attention by howling less in populated areas. Joe recounts living with coyotes in Ventura County and the constant tension of admiring them while also losing chickens to them.
- •Coyotes in some cities appear to howl less to avoid attention
- •Joe’s experience with coyotes killing backyard chickens
- •Coyotes’ presence in suburban/urban edge environments
- •The love-hate relationship people develop with charismatic predators
- 1:11 – 6:37
The “honey-pot” coyote: tricking a mastiff into breaking the coop
Joe tells a detailed story about his mastiff, Johnny Cash, and how a coyote seemingly manipulated the dog into destroying a smaller pen so the coyote could grab a chicken. The story becomes a springboard into discussing just how strategic and opportunistic coyotes can be.
- •Coyotes’ athletic ability to clear high fences with prey
- •Joe’s dog befriending a fence-line coyote
- •A coyote leveraging the dog’s strength to access chickens
- •Aftermath: the dog learns destructive behavior and kills more chickens
- 6:37 – 9:34
Animal culture and canid intelligence: wolves, dogs, and coyotes as strategists
Dan frames Joe’s story as an example of “animal culture”—behaviors learned and transmitted between animals. They broaden into canid social intelligence, why wolves were domesticated, and why coyotes may be especially shrewd due to surviving alongside bigger competitors.
- •Animals can transmit learned behaviors (animal culture)
- •Wolves/dogs as hyper-social and capable of learning human cues/words
- •Coyotes’ cleverness shaped by coexisting with wolves
- •Coyotes as small, adaptable survivors dependent on strategy
- 9:34 – 15:37
How coyotes conquered America: wolf removal, government campaigns, and fission–fusion survival
Dan explains coyotes’ 20th-century expansion as a product of two forces: the removal of wolves (creating an open niche) and government predator-control campaigns. Coyotes respond to pressure by breaking into singles/pairs (“fission mode”), scattering and colonizing new territory.
- •Eastern wolf extirpation opened space for a mid-sized predator
- •Federal/state predator-control was effective on wolves but not coyotes
- •Coyotes shift from packs to dispersed units under pressure
- •Timeline of coyotes appearing across the U.S., including the East Coast
- 15:37 – 21:36
Urban ecology: coyotes in Los Angeles, rat control, and prey–predator blind spots
Joe and Dan discuss how coyotes persisted in Southern California and how urban predators shape city ecosystems (especially rodents). Joe shares vivid rat stories—from tool use to cannibalism—highlighting how intense “wild” dynamics exist alongside modern human life.
- •Coyotes were present in the LA basin long before modern urban buildout
- •Predators reduce visible rat populations in many neighborhoods
- •Rats demonstrate problem-solving and tool use (trap-tripping example)
- •Wild brutality (predation/cannibalism) occurs close to human routines
- 21:36 – 30:05
Owls vs. cats: great horned owl predation and the myth of the “wise old owl”
Dan argues that many “missing pet” cases blamed on coyotes are often great horned owls that carry prey away. They explore owl predation footage, stories of cats snatched in public, and how cultural anthropomorphizing (wise owls with glasses) clashes with their real predatory role.
- •Disappearance vs. remains: a clue distinguishing owl vs. coyote kills
- •Great horned owl behavior and reported roosts with many cat collars
- •Video/story examples of owls striking prey with speed and force
- •Human myths and symbols about animals vs. biological reality
- 30:05 – 50:42
Ravens, dolphins, and consciousness: what “animal minds” can do
Dan tells the story of a raven that learned to trust him and now follows him on walks, ‘conversing’ in vocalizations. This leads into broader reflections on animal communication, dialects (dolphins/orcas), and research suggesting consciousness and culture exist across many species.
- •A raven learns trust through repeated feeding and proximity tolerance
- •Raven behavior: individual recognition, following on walks, vocal ‘dialogue’
- •Limits of human understanding of animal languages (dolphin/orca dialects)
- •Modern science reframing animals as conscious, cultural beings
- 50:42 – 59:38
Why Dan wrote *Wild New World*: a “big history” from Chicxulub to humans in the Americas
Dan explains the ambition behind the book: a sweeping history of animals and people in North America, inspired in part by big-history approaches like Harari’s. He starts with the post-dinosaur mammal world and builds toward human arrival and the ecological drama that follows.
- •Book origin as a pandemic-era project after *Coyote America* and *American Serengeti*
- •Starting point: Chicxulub impact and the rise/spread of mammals
- •North America as a late “grand continent” for human arrival
- •Humans drawn toward prey naïve to a new predator: us
- 59:38 – 1:03:59
Clovis big-game hunters: fluted points, mammoth kills, and rapid migration
They dig into early American archaeology: Clovis technology and the scale of big-game hunting. Dan describes a striking Arizona mammoth-hunt site and explains how specialized hunting traditions and new point design shaped the earliest pan-continental culture.
- •Clovis as a culture spreading coast-to-coast with distinctive fluted points
- •Example mammoth hunt: multiple sites, points embedded, defensive cow behavior
- •Hunting expertise rooted in tens of thousands of generations of big-game hunting
- •Early migration dynamics, including evidence like White Sands footprints
- 1:03:59 – 1:21:00
Folsom discovery and America’s deep antiquity (plus the pee break)
After a short break, Dan recounts the 1908 Folsom-site discovery and why it transformed perceptions of American history. The story centers on Charles McJunkin’s find, Jesse Figgins’ excavation, and the decisive evidence: a point embedded in extinct bison bone.
- •Joe pauses the conversation for a quick break mid-archaeology discussion
- •1908 flood exposes the Folsom site; McJunkin recognizes the significance
- •Embedded point in extinct bison bone proves deep human antiquity in America
- •Radiocarbon dating later anchors the site at ~12,450 years
- 1:21:00 – 1:27:35
Weapons, isolation, and the Great Dying: bows arrive late and diseases arrive catastrophically
Joe asks about when archery reached North America, and Dan explains diffusion relatively late compared to the Old World—highlighting long continental isolation. That isolation also meant Native Americans lacked exposure to Eurasian livestock diseases, setting the stage for catastrophic depopulation after European arrival.
- •Archery spreads in North America roughly ~2,000 years ago via Inuit ancestors (as argued here)
- •Atlatls and distance weapons reduce the dangers of close-range hunting
- •Continental isolation delays technological diffusion and disease exposure
- •Old World diseases contribute to massive mortality (“The Great Dying”)
- 1:27:35 – 1:36:13
Chaco Canyon: North American “Vatican,” drought collapse, and inequality as an ancient pattern
Dan describes Chaco as a large, organized Southwestern civilization with roads, ceremonies, and a priestly elite—then explores its collapse under drought, resource pressure, and social disparity. Joe connects the dynamics to recurring human behavior around power, privilege, and blame.
- •Chaco as a wide regional network with a central ceremonial hub
- •Evidence of elite lineages and unusual traits (mitochondrial line; sixth toe)
- •Deforestation and fuel demand tied to agriculture and cooking fires
- •Collapse narrative: drought, unmet religious promises, and inequality backlash
- 1:36:13 – 1:53:39
Worldviews collide: kinship ecology vs. herder religion, capitalism, and commodifying wildlife
Dan contrasts Indigenous kinship-based relationships with predators and ecosystems against European traditions shaped by herding, predator eradication, and human exceptionalism. He shares a formative childhood story (his pet chick) to illustrate how the Western worldview teaches animals as expendable, then traces how that worldview fuels the fur trade and market hunting.
- •Indigenous predators as sacred/totemic vs. European predators as enemies to livestock
- •Dan’s childhood ‘Chicky’ story as an entry point into human exceptionalism
- •Fur trade as early corporate capitalism (beaver pelts; John Jacob Astor)
- •European resentment over aristocratic hunting restrictions amplifies exploitation in America
- 1:53:39 – 2:04:04
Market hunting disasters and modern correction: passenger pigeons, predator wars, and conservation
They examine how industrial-scale harvest wiped out seemingly inexhaustible wildlife—especially passenger pigeons—and how cultural indifference followed extinction. Dan then pivots to the 20th-century rise of game laws, predator eradication, ecological blowback (ungulate eruptions), and the long road to modern protections like the Endangered Species Act.
- •Passenger pigeon eradication via nets and live decoys (‘stool pigeon’ origin)
- •Sparse public mourning when the last passenger pigeon died (1914)
- •Predator removal driving booms and crashes in deer/elk populations
- •Early conservation focuses on huntable species; later expands via ESA-era thinking
- 2:04:04 – 2:14:15
Pronghorns and bison booms: Pleistocene legacies, coyote predation, and Little Ice Age effects
Dan explains pronghorn speed as a relic adaptation to extinct American cheetahs and why fawns remain vulnerable mainly to coyotes. They also explore bison history—modern bison as a smaller form shaped by pressures, and how disease-driven depopulation and climate shifts may have helped fuel bison expansions beyond the Great Plains.
- •Pronghorn speed as evolutionary ‘overbuild’ from ancient cheetah predation
- •Two-fawn strategy (‘spare and heir’) to offset fawn losses
- •Bison evolution toward smaller size and faster reproduction under predation pressure
- •Great Dying → reduced burning + rewilding + cooler/wetter period (Little Ice Age) aiding grass and bison expansion
- 2:14:15 – 2:31:21
Audiobook rights, bad reviews, and the Younger Dryas impact debate (Randall Carlson matchup teased)
In the closing stretch, Joe and Dan talk about audiobook production choices and the pitfalls of reviews. They end on the contested Younger Dryas impact theory: Dan emphasizes peer-reviewed consensus and selectivity issues in extinction patterns, while Joe argues multiple factors may have worked together and proposes a future conversation with Randall Carlson.
- •Why authors often don’t control audiobook narration rights
- •How misreadings (e.g., ‘anti-hunting’) distort a book’s intent
- •Younger Dryas: climate pulse vs. impact/flooding hypotheses
- •Extinction selectivity: why Pleistocene losses skew toward large mammals
- •Plan teased: bring in Randall Carlson for a dedicated discussion
