EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,343 words- 0:00 – 1:43
Rogan’s skepticism—and why the Brazil crash story feels different
- JFJames Fox
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- NANarrator
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Hello, James.
- JFJames Fox
Hello.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you, my man.
- JFJames Fox
Thank you so much for having me on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, my pleasure. The moment I saw that documentary, I was like, "W-," uh, let me just be honest, off, off the bat. I loved your first documentary, but when someone says there's a documentary about a crashed UFO and it happened in Brazil, I'm always like, "Man, people tell stories." You know? I'm like, "Maybe it was one of those."
- JFJames Fox
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, I didn't think too much of it. When I hear stories, even Roswell, I always go, "Meh, I don't know. I don't know." It's so hard to know. 1947, you know, I think some shenanigans were going on, but what, what was it really, and how much of this is just people tell stories? And those stories grow and change over the years, and, and, you know, almost like the story becomes their real memory after a while, 'cause they've been doing it for, you know, so many, so many years. But then this one. This one, just right away, the way you captured all the, the information and the evidence and th- the eyewitness accounts, the photographs that people got, the, the depictions of the actual being, the fact that there was live beings, this is a re- it- and everyone that didn't even know each other having these, like, really similar stories about what they saw and when people got ahold of the wreckage. Like, when you first started making this documentary, did you have any apprehension, like, "Oh, this one may not ... How, how do I sell a documentary on a crashed UFO?" Like, "What's the best way to put this together?" 'Cause that's part of the art of what you do, right?
- 1:43 – 4:16
Fox’s origin story: dismissing Varginha for over a decade
- JFJames Fox
You were skeptical. Let me tell you how skeptical I was.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJames Fox
Okay? So I was making my second documentary on UFOs in the late '90s. I just finished a documentary called UFOs: 50 Years of Denial. I started on my second film. It was 1999. And I partner up with a couple of guys. Boris Zubov has been a partner. I'm still working with him today. And this guy Tim Coleman, who's a British reporter. And, uh, we ... Like, mapping out the film concept, like, "Hey, we should cover this case, and we should do that." And he's like, "Hey, mate, we gotta do this amazing UFO crash in Brazil where these aliens were walking around the town." And I looked at the guy, and I thought, "I think I picked the wrong partner. This guy's fucking batshit crazy." And literally, I dismissed it on the spot, and I refused to even read one word about it. I said, "There's no way in hell that that happened and the whole world doesn't know about it."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JFJames Fox
So, and I, I have to remind your audience, I was making my second documentary.
- JRJoe Rogan
On UFOs?
- JFJames Fox
On UFOs.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJames Fox
And I dismissed it like this ... Like, how fast can you say Howdy Doody?
- JRJoe Rogan
It just always seems like if someone's telling you about something like that, like, you would have heard about it.
- JFJames Fox
Absolutely. I c- I can't tell you, Joe, how quickly I dismissed it, and I didn't look into it till 2011. Okay? So here's what happened. I'm going to ... I get invited by this guy, A. J. Daverde, to a place called, uh, Pernambuco in, um, in, uh, Brazil. And, uh, I'm speaking at a conference about a film I did called I Know What I Saw. And, uh, this guy calls me. Jeff Sagansky was very high up on the food chain, uh, in the entertainment industry. He's been kind of like my mentor and opening doors for me over the years. And I've asked him over a period of time, like, "Why are you so kind to me?" He's a very wealthy guy in New York. And he goes, "You know, Jackie Gleason told me one time that these things were real. Don't, don't listen to anybody else. I know for a fact. And so when I saw you as an independent, struggling young filmmaker, I always wanted to lend a helping hand. And by the way, you're going to Brazil. You gotta look into that Varginha case." And I thought, "Oh God, not this again," right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Aah!
- JFJames Fox
Swear to God. So I was like ... Well, I had a lot of respect for Jeff Sagansky. I mean, you can look him up. The guy's very famous. I mean very. Uh, he's big time. And I said, "Oh yeah, sure, Jeff, I'll look into that for you while I'm in Brazil," and, uh, just to be nice, right? But in the back of my mind, I was like, "I'm not wasting one second on that stupid case."
- JRJoe Rogan
Ugh.
- JFJames Fox
Seriously, I'm, I'm telling you honest-to-God truth.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- 4:16 – 7:04
Stanton Friedman’s credibility hook—and why Fox finally paid attention
- JFJames Fox
And it was 2011. So I go to Brazil with the inte- with no intention of looking into it. Zero. Okay? I wasn't even gonna ask one question. And it just so happens that nuclear physicist and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman, rest in peace, and, uh, he's there at the conference. And somehow, the case gets brought up. It wasn't about that case, but it gets brought up, and he's like, "Oh yeah, I was in Brazil when that went down." And he's one of the smarter guys. Stanton Friedman?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJames Fox
He is not an idiot. I mean, he's one of the reasons why him and Don Schmidt and Kevin Randle are one of the reasons why we're even talking about Roswell. And, uh, he's like, "Oh yeah, I was here when that, when that happened. I met some of the witnesses." So then that kind of piqued my interest. I was like, "Uh, okay. Well, got Stanton. I can't completely dismiss coming from Stanton." Then I met a couple of people at the conference, so I thought, "Uh, oh, okay. Well, I ... piqued my interest. I gotta be honest with you." And that's how it all started. And that was, like, in 2011. And I was gonna include a segment of it in The Phenomenon, but-
- JRJoe Rogan
The interview with Stanton, is that ... did you get that?
- JFJames Fox
I got that in 2013.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JFJames Fox
In Brazil.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause he died when? Just a few years-
- JFJames Fox
He died, like, couple years ago. He died in the airport. You know what he told me? He's like, uh, "James, I'm retiring. I can't do this anymore. I live in Canada in this remote spot. There are no direct flights, and I'm always running in the airports trying to get my connecting flight, and I just, I can't do it anymore." And then he retired for, like, a year or so, and then he just ... he had to get back at it, and he died in the airport running for a connecting flight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, he had a heart attack running to-
- JFJames Fox
He had a heart attack. Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh no.
- JFJames Fox
It's exactly what he predicted.
- JRJoe Rogan
Goddamn it.
- JFJames Fox
I know, right? And I just, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
He was a fascinating guy because he was an outspoken critic of Lazar, and I always wanted to get the two of them together. I was like, "I wanted to see," 'cause...One of the things that, uh, uh, th- the critics of Lazar always bring up is his education at MIT. I can explain that to you off-air in the way that he explained it to me, and it, it might make sense, but I think that it's hard to dismiss that he worked at that lab. Los Alamos labs had him on their, their, th- their list of people that worked there. Like he was on the, the, whatever that thing is that they have with all the list of employees. He was in it. Like he worked there. He knew all the people that worked there. He knew how it was set up. When they, when they took him there, he knew the security guys. He knew the machines that they used to, uh, uh, they, they had some sort of a scanner that measured the length of your digits exactly. So you put your hand on this thing, and, uh, he talked about it, and everybody was like, "What? That doesn't even exist." And then years later, people got photographs of this thing.
- JFJames Fox
George Knapp said he went through that Los Alamos-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 7:04 – 14:02
Area 51 VHS: Fox’s unreleased “low flying disc” tape story
- JFJames Fox
... laboratory like, psh, just right through. Let me tell you, I ... This is, this is something that just came in yesterday that I, that I can for the first time ever talk about, uh, in full detail. I've talked about on ... I did a couple of podcasts where I gave, I don't know. In, in 1993, '94, I was working on my first film. I talked about it earlier. It's called UFOs. It's so '90s, but whatever. (laughs) UFOs: 50 Years of Denial. It's like 80 years of denial now. And, uh, I was interviewing this guy out at Area 50. He was like, lived on the outskirts of the base in, in a place called, um, l- uh, ali- the Lit- near the Little Ali Inn in Rachel, Nevada. And Chuck, this guy's name was Chuck Clark, and he had found all these ... And the relevance of what I'm telling you will come to light in a second here. He'd found all these vantage points on the mountaintops that he could spy on the base down below with high-powered telescopes stra- with, uh, with cameras. And he was taking photographs of diff- exotic airplanes coming out of the hangers and stuff like that. He wrote a book called like, uh, UFO Area 51, uh, Handbook and Guide or something. He was a, a- amateur astronomer. He was ... And he had a couple of really cool sightings out at Area 51 that were really ... Like he'd saw these ... It's in my movie. He saw these ta- these lights doing things that they shouldn't be doing, right? Like traversing and then stopping and then taking off really fast. So anyway, so I'm covering his story, 'cause I was intrigued. I mean, in, in, in the early '90s, the Bob Lazar thing was everywhere.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJames Fox
I was making a doc on UFOs, so I was kind of looking into it. I wouldn't just like categorically believe it, but I'll look into it. So I was looking into it, and, uh, and I'm going back and forth out there for many times, and then one day, I get a phone call from Chuck Clark. And I'm back at home in Northern California, and this is kind of a long way away, and he goes, "James, I got something you need to see." I said, "Okay. Well, what is it?" "I can't tell you, but your jaw's gonna hit the floor when you see it." I was like, "That good?" He goes, "Oh, yeah. That good." I said, "I'm canceling all my plans," jumped in my car, and I drove straight through to Rachel, Nevada. I get to his house. This must have been ... I'm gonna guesstimate '95, '94, '95. Get to his house and he's got a double-wide right near the Little Ali Inn, and, uh, he pops in this VHS tape. And it was like, and it was like two guys on the quintessential road trip just to Area 50- you know, Area ... the, the surrounding areas, Rachel and the extraterrestrial lonely highway, and they're goofing off, the alien taking videos of each other. Just, just the typical road trip out to Area 51, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Blair Witch Project.
- JFJames Fox
Totally. And, uh, and then they're goofing off next to the photographs of the alien and the crashed disc, and then they're inside the Little Ali Inn, and I'm like, "Okay, where is this going?" Then all of a sudden, and I saw this with my own eyes, all of a sudden, the car is parked, and it's parked out by the black mailbox in the desert, and it's dusk. The camera is on the armrest between the two seats, and it's slightly cocked, like it's like, it's not level. And it's filming the dashboard and the screen, the, the windscreen, windshield, and, um, and there's two guys in there sounding like, You can't see them, sounding like they're trying to crawl under the seats. I mean, they're freaking out. And then one of them goes, "It's, it's over the top of us! It's over the top of us!" And I'm like, "Damn, what is this video? Like what am I ... " you know. Then all of a sudden, the car lights up on the inside, but the source of light is above it, like if you can imagine ... I'd never seen anything like this. If you could put a pendulum with a light source above a vehicle, like above the car, like this-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JFJames Fox
... but very slow in fluid motion, like rocking back and forth, the shadows and the lights on the inside of the car are doing this really eerily... You've never seen anything like it. I'm looking, I'm like, "My God, what is going on?" And they're very scared. And one kid, who's the younger of the two, is like, "I'm getting out. I'm getting out of the car." "No, stay in the car. It's over the top of- stay in the fucking car!" He goes, "No, I'm getting out," and he gets out, and he videotapes a disc that was so low you could've hit it with a rock. And I'm looking at this thing, and I'm like, "That's what all the witnesses have tried to describe. That's ... Like if, if you can imagine the skin on the craft glowing like phosphorus on a beach, that's what it looked like. Like the skin was alive. And it had like, um, like a yellowy-orange color to it, but you could clearly see it was a disc. I mean, it was not an orb. It was a disc, but the metal lit up like it was alive. I- I- I'd never seen anything like it. And it, and it just wobbled like it was unstable, like doing this.... and the camera guy goes, "Oh my God," and then something about the batteries, and then (fingers snap) boom, it shuts off. (scoffs) I looked over at Chuck Clark, I said, "This is the video everyone's been waiting for. Unbelievable."
- JRJoe Rogan
How do you know this is real? 'Cause every-
- JFJames Fox
If it's not real-
- JRJoe Rogan
... all my BS meters are going off right now.
- JFJames Fox
I... Dude, fair enough. I get it. Fair enough. I saw this video with my own eyes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Of course.
- JFJames Fox
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's a video, though.
- JFJames Fox
It's a video, for sure. No question about it.
- JRJoe Rogan
And you know they make fake videos.
- JFJames Fox
Absolutely. It was 1995, and they could have, but why wouldn't... If-
- JRJoe Rogan
1995, it's harder.
- JFJames Fox
Yeah, it wa- but, but why? It's never been released to the public. Why would you create a fake video?
- JRJoe Rogan
(clicks tongue) What year did you see it?
- JFJames Fox
I saw it, like, '95.
- JRJoe Rogan
(clicks tongue) And so it's out there somewhere.
- JFJames Fox
No, it's not. It's n- Chuck Clark's d- got a copy of it. The, the story continues.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, but I mean, it... someone has it.
- JFJames Fox
Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, in fact, if, if those two boys that, that shot it are out there, please come forward. Like, please.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wh- How come no one's acquired this?
- JFJames Fox
So, so I, I said to Chuck, "Oh my God, this is great. I can use this in my, in my movie." Right? "Great." He goes, "Oh, no. No, no, they're terrif-" I said, "Well, look, just put me in touch with the guys. You don't have to, like, give-"
- JRJoe Rogan
But wait a minute. They're terrified, but they give it to a guy who lives in a trailer?
- JFJames Fox
I'm just... Hey, I'm just telling you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you even know what I'm saying though?
- 14:02 – 20:02
Logan Paul’s $100K attempt to buy the tape—and the “button cam” workaround
- JFJames Fox
... because I went on a couple of podcasts, and I said, "Screw it, I don't care anymore. I saw this video. I'm gonna start talking about it." Chuck Clark said, "If you ask me again after, like, 10 years or 12 years, I'm never talking to you again." So I was like... I, of course, asked him again. I said, "I'll give you 30 grand for the video," and he's not talking to me. So I went on, like, Concrete podcast, and I went on this guy Julian Dorian's podcast, and I went on a bunch of other podcasts, and I gave the whole story. Let's let somebody else pick up the ball and run with it. I'm just telling you what I saw, okay? (breathes deeply) I get a c- I get contacted a couple years ago by a, by a guy who goes, "I saw that video too." Then another guy contacts me, and he goes, he goes, "I got... I'm a private investigator. I find people." I said, "Well, his name's Chuck Clark. Go, go to it," so he finds him. (clicks tongue) Right at that time, I'm going on the Impulsive podcast with, with, uh, Logan Paul, and I tell Logan Paul the story, and he has exactly the same response you have, and I don't blame you. Okay? I'm not here to convince anybody of anything. I'm just telling you what I saw. It was very impressive what I saw, very impressive. If it was a fake, my God, that was well done. Bet it- I mean, he should be making movies with Spielberg. So anyway...
- JRJoe Rogan
What is this channel's name who has this again?
- JFJames Fox
Chuck Clark.
- JRJoe Rogan
Chuck. What are you doing, Chuck?
- JFJames Fox
So... Well, let me finish. So Logan Paul, he's like, "I wanna, I wanna go to this guy's house." I said, "H- I got the guy. He's got the information." Logan's all kinda... This is all behind the scenes. So (laughs) Logan Paul takes... Uh, I put him in touch with this guy, and this guy lives in the middle of nowhere. I mean, it was like... Logan Paul takes a Mercedes with a bunch of guys and $100,000 in cash, a big brick, and he goes out to this guy's house in the middle of the desert, and Logan calls me in the middle of nowhere, and he's like, "Are you sure your contact's legit, dude? My phone doesn't work. I'm in the middle of nowhere. I got 100K cash in my pocket. I can't find this guy." (laughs) I said, "No, I'm sure he's good," you know? And, uh, so Logan goes in there and meets Chuck Clark, and Chuck Clark's like, "Yeah, got the tape right here." And so he says, "I'll give you 100 grand for it," and the guy says, "No way," and so Logan Paul was the... Gonna re- reveal this for the first time. Logan Paul has got a button camera on his je- on his dress- on his clothes. So Logan Paul's like, "All right, well this guy doesn't wanna... You know, he's gonna die with it, so let's get, you know, let's get this thing on camera." So Logan's like, "Well, let me see it at least." So Logan, like, looks at it with this thing and, "Oh, could you show it to me again?" Gets another angle, gets another angle, and, uh, and then he leaves. So Logan's like, "I don't know if I wanna go public. I mean, I, I don't really own the video. I, I don't know. I... seems like a bit of a gray zone." So I said, "Look, you know, this is a story that might be of interest to Bob Lazar, because maybe Bob Lazar c- should see this video, and he can make a determination." I'm just saying. Or maybe George Knapp or Jeremy Corbell might be interested. This is not my domain. I'm not a Bob Lazar big guy. I don't know m- a muff about... Bob La- I met Bob Lazar in the early '90s, and he told me... I came up to him at a conference, and I said, "Hey, thank you for coming forward," and he said, "I, I didn't have a choice." That was my only... I, I don't know anything about the case. I know you know way more than I do about the case, but I'm just saying. I'm just putting this out there because-
- JRJoe Rogan
How do I know more about the case than you?
- JFJames Fox
Well, I, because I-
- JRJoe Rogan
You literally make documentaries-
- JFJames Fox
I do.
- JRJoe Rogan
... on UFOs.
- JFJames Fox
I do, but I, I, (sighs) I mean, you got one person's account-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JFJames Fox
... and it's fascinating, and I believe that Lazar believes what he's saying. But I've talked to George Knapp about this, and George said same thing. I said, "Maybe, I mean, just maybe," and I'm not out here attacking Lazar or Corbe- nobody else. I'm just saying maybe he was used as a disinformation plant that seeds some real information and some bogus information just to kinda test the waters and the reaction from the public. I, I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Most certainly, that's possible.
- JFJames Fox
Yeah. I, I really-
- JRJoe Rogan
Most certainly, that's possible.
- JFJames Fox
Not my domain.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's al- also, I would imagine if you're gonna give people access to classified information like that, you'd be very careful, and you would probably...... add in some stuff that's not true.
- JFJames Fox
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, it doesn't matter whether or not, a- as long as like, they have a bunch of stuff that's absolutely provable nonsense-
- JFJames Fox
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... on top of the stuff that's-
- JFJames Fox
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... probably real, then they get discredited.
- JFJames Fox
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which, you know, I mean, look, there's a lot of weird stuff about the Bob Lazar story, a lot of weird stuff about it. And the, the st- the, the one that sticks in my mind, and I know this probably shouldn't because it's possible to do, is that it's been consistent. His story's been absolutely consistent since the late 1980s.
- JFJames Fox
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now, that's possible, to develop a narrative, and if you're disciplined, and he's obviously very intelligent, you could just like, craft the longest con the world has ever known and make no money from it and turn your life upside down, and have the feds search your property, which they did-
- JFJames Fox
Doesn't make a lot of sense.
- JRJoe Rogan
... on, on video. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If they thought that he really was in possession of Element 115, and that there really is, uh, a stable version of this element that we discovered in a particle collider, or we, we accurately, they predicted it and then proved it to be real in a particle collider. But that wasn't until like, the, the 2000s. When was it like, when they ... I wanna say, was it like 2011 when they, uh, officially discovered Particle 115, or Element 115? But this element, he said was stable, wherever these beings are from, and they use it to propel their craft through a, a means of bypassing normal propulsion systems with some insanely sophisticated method, where they can pick points in space and they essentially just instantaneously traverse these points in space.
- 20:02 – 33:04
Westall Polaroid and “turning sideways”: linking classic reports to Lazar-like flight behavior
- JFJames Fox
I brought a photograph with me. Of course, I left it in the other room, but I'll bring it out at some point, and it was a guy named James Kibble. He's Australian. And it's about, uh, 19, it's April 1966. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I did, uh, a segment on a landing case that happened at Westall in 1966, which is a suburb, Westall Primary School, which is a suburb of Melbourne. Shane Ryan did a film on it. I just covered a section of it in The Phenomenon. And during my time in Australia, I'd heard about this guy, Jim Kibble, James Kibble, that shot a Polaroid of a disc a couple of kilometers away two days prior to the landing at the school. A lot of times when you have sightings, mass sightings like that, they're in and around the area for several days. So, it's very likely that those two are connected. My point is this. According to James Kibble, and he's in the film, he said the disc was kinda c- coming down like this over his garden, and he had his Polaroid camera, and he was gonna take pictures of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you're doing the same wobbling kind of motion-
- JFJames Fox
Yeah, he said this kind-
- JRJoe Rogan
... with your hand.
- JFJames Fox
I'm telling what he told me, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JFJames Fox
He said it was kind of wobbling down like a leaf, kind of.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JFJames Fox
And then, uh, he was like, "Holy shit," and he grabbed his, uh, Polaroid camera, and he said he did it so quickly, he smashed it in his face and he split his nose open, but he snapped one shot. And he said what it did was, is it went like this, which I ha-
- JRJoe Rogan
Turns sideways.
- JFJames Fox
The photograph that I have shows it sideways. And I'll show it to you. I've got a, I scanned it from the original Polaroid. And then it shot off at an unbelievable rate of speed, according to him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Exactly how Lazar describes-
- JFJames Fox
That's-
- JRJoe Rogan
... how these things work.
- JFJames Fox
That's, that's exactly my point. And when I interviewed all the children, now adults, that watched this thing land at this Westall Primary School in 1966, they said the same thing. It was sitting on the ground. They got up to, I think, around 10 feet away from it, which is pretty remarkable when you talk to witnesses, especially that many witnesses. I mean, there were roughly 300 kids. I didn't meet all 300 of them, in the playground when this happened. And including the science teacher, this guy, Greenwood, which I got him on camera for the first time in history, in The Phenomenon. And they said it got off the ground, and then it went like this. It turned like this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Turns sideways again.
- JFJames Fox
And then it shot off at a high rate of speed. It's in the movie. You can hear all the testimonies.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's the same thing.
- JFJames Fox
Yes. And I got a photograph of it like this, I'll show it to you.
- JRJoe Rogan
And no sound.
- JFJames Fox
And no sound. A slight humming or buzzing sound. This is 1966. So, and I'm gonna get to this later when we can go back to moment of contact, but I'm gonna make the argument that some, and I cannot emphasize how many times we need to underline the word some, UFOs, UAP originate from a non-human intelligence. And I'll start off in '45, and I'll take us up to modern day.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JFJames Fox
Just a handful of cases that I am, I have personally investigated. I have personally met the witnesses, gone to their houses, dating back to '45, '47, '52, '57, '55, '60s, '64, like all these cases. Okay? So basically, what I'm gonna do is, we all know, we know that the vast majority of these cases can be explained in conventional terms. All this noise about Chinese balloons and, uh, weather balloons, and that's all noise. It's obfuscation and noise. Yeah, we know that all that stuff exists. But what about the core 5 or 10% of cases? And I'm gonna give you some samples today. That truly, after extensive and exhaustive investigation, not because of a lack of data, that, that defy a conventional explanation. And those are the cases that I'll share with you today wh- when we're ready, but we can go back to moment of contact if you want.
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't ... Let's go right into it.
- JFJames Fox
Oh, you wanna go right into it?
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm so excited.
- JFJames Fox
All right. All right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You got me so pumped up.
- JFJames Fox
Let's, let's do it. Let's do it. Here it is. Um-
- NANarrator
That's the Polaroid?
- 33:04 – 39:06
UFOs and nukes: mapping sightings near nuclear sites and Harry Reid’s warning
- JFJames Fox
Yeah, let's go from 1945.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I... Am I correct in... This is one of the things that I've always heard is that after the bombs were dropped-
- JFJames Fox
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that's when the UFOs started showing up?
- JFJames Fox
Well, that's when, uh, the activity certainly heightened, and, uh, yeah. So let's g-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there any indication that they were directly connected other than the fact that they'd just show up? Was there e- was there ever any-
- JFJames Fox
So I'll tell you-
- JRJoe Rogan
... any testimony?
- JFJames Fox
I'll tell you. I'll tell you, uh, how it organically came upon m- my attention. I was working with this guy, Lance Monge. He was one, one of the editors that was working on The Phenomenon with me, and, uh, we were doing this archive from a guy, this guy named David Marler's got this incredible archive of UFO material dating right back to the '40s all the way up to modern day. Newspaper headlines, audio recordings, statements, uh, broadcast, uh, unbelievable... The biggest archive, you could spend the rest of your life in there. So he gave me a bunch of stuff that was, uh, uh, archive interviews of primarily people at White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base, different areas in Texas, and, uh, I was just putting it in. It's kind of like a little montage in the piece of just giving the i- illustration that these things are going on all, kind of all over. And my buddy goes, "Hey man, let's, let's put a map on the wall and put pins in the map for all these different locations." So I was like, "Oh, okay, sure. Let's do that." So we put a map on the wall in the edit room when we were doing The Phenomenon, and we were putting pins in, and we looked at each other after, like, a day or two, and we were like, "Look at proximity to Trinity Site. Wow, even Socorro, White Sands, this place in Texas." Like, "That's kind of unusual." We're kinda scratching our heads. "Do you think there's a correlation?" So anyway, we didn't really take it much further than that, but we definitely took notice, and then I met with Senator Harry Reid. Thank you, George Knapp for helping make that happen. Uh, former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, he started the AATIP program, and, and during the interview, I, I didn't think about asking him this, but at the end... And he had, like, "I'll be... I'll have 47 minutes with you, and then I gotta go," and he's got all the security guards and big guys with thi- earpieces looking at me, and I said, "Well, s- or sir, would you mind if we could, um, do a quick walk and talk?" He goes, "Yeah, I'll give you 45 seconds." So I figured, "Well, while I'm walking with Senator Reid, I'm gonna ask him what was o- one of the more astonishing aspects of The Phenomenon that they uncovered during this Pentagon UFO program?" And right away without hesitation, he goes, "The fact that there are incursions over our nuclear missile facilities, nuclear armed facilities, uh, that is of, of grave concern." That just... That was a shocking aspect of The Phenomenon, and I thought back to that map that we'd done in the edit room. So I was like, "I gotta, I gotta go back to the drawing board." So I spent a year. I contacted this guy named Robert Hastings, who's the, the, the guy who wrote the book on the connection between UFOs and nukes.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is the book?
- JFJames Fox
Uh, uh, his name is Robert Hastings. Um, um, UFOs and Nukes, I, I think. But in any case, I contacted him, and he's like, "Oh, I've, I'm, I'm not doing too well. I got this heart condition. I tell you what, you can have all my archives, all the videos that I shot." So I went through all of it, and I put together just, like, a five or 10-minute segment in The Phenomenon, that connection. And you got all these, like, missile control launch officers and people at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Minot Air Force Base talking about these incredible incursions. And keep in mind, you're talking about people that we entrusted with the secure s- sc- like, sec- securement and, and, and deployment of nuclear weapons. Okay? So if these guys are lying, that's a problem, and if these guys are hallucinating when they've got nuclear weapons at their disposal, that's terrifying. And it's happening all over. I mean, there is... I don't... I've got at least 15 or 20 of these guys testifying, and Robert Hastings got a bunch more.
- JRJoe Rogan
And-
- JFJames Fox
My point is, there is a... there does seem to be a connection.I interviewed this guy, Robert Salas. Robert Salas was a ... Lieutenant Robert Salas, launch control officer, United States Air Force, has this incredible encounter in, in Malmstrom. Or i- his people do. And UFO-sighted, a disc, and then his nukes start shutting down. He said to me, I'll never forget this, and this is like 2002, this is part of Out of the Blue. He goes, "Well, James ..." Very calm. You could see why he was a launch control officer, very measured. Everything that came out of his mouth was calm and measured. He goes, "Well, James, the way I see it, it's kind of like taking matches out of the hands of a baby."
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JFJames Fox
Yeah. Whoa, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that makes sense.
- JFJames Fox
So, there's a preponderance of testimony from these guys, and they're testifying right now to AARO, S- Sean Kirkpatrick. But w- we can get back to m-
- JRJoe Rogan
What does AARO stand for?
- JFJames Fox
Look it up. It's an acronym. It's, it's the new UAP task force. There's, there was, uh, a- there was OSAP, then it went to ATIP, then it went to UAP task force, then it went to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Why do they keep changing the name?
- JFJames Fox
I know, they keep changing the name.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like a boy band or ...
- JFJames Fox
Maybe it's like a re- like a rebranding or something.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JFJames Fox
Do you know? It's it's a d- uh, All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you see the, the, the photo that I posted on Instagram of the story of the guy from Space Force?
- JFJames Fox
Yeah. Just, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It says, "We may be facing threats outside this world."
- JFJames Fox
(sighs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What the fuck does that mean?
- 39:06 – 42:22
Rendlesham Forest: a nuclear-base landing, missing photos, and alleged sanitization
- JFJames Fox
A lot of them. I put 15, 20, 25? Let me give you another example. Joint Base, uh, Rendlesham Forest, December 1980. It's a joint British-US base. It's called the Rendles- Rendlesham Forest incident. There was a landing, December 1980. You've got Jim Penniston, John Burroughs, and this guy, Ed Cabansag, thinking that, like, something crashed in the forest or something. They went out to investigate, and there's an object sitting on the forest floor. It's a, it's a, kind of like a triangular-shaped object, and it's dark, and it's warm to the touch, and they sat with it on the ground. Cabansag act- acted like as a relay between the base and where this object had sit on the ground. Jim Penniston took photographs of it. He had his, uh, log book. He wrote down the symbols that were on the craft, which were crazy. And, um, then the deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, I interviewed him. He had, uh ... 'Cause sightings can happen over a period, uh, of a week or more, a lot of times when you get these mass sightings. And e- even the deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, became a witness. He was skeptical, and then he too became a witness, and he said that these objects ... There's a recording of him while it's happening. It's, it's out there in the, in the ether. They were shooting beams of light down into the weapons storage area. That was December 1980. Um, phenomenal case, the Rendlesham Forest incident. These are like the cases-
- JRJoe Rogan
How ... What did this object look like?
- JFJames Fox
It was a triangular-shaped object, not that big. I don't know, maybe six feet high, and it was black, and he said it was warm to the touch. And it didn't make any sound, very little sound, and then it lifted off the s- the forest floor, maneuvered up through the trees, then shot off at a high rate of speed. Now, these are people that are responsible for the security of our nuclear weapons saying this. The deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, saying this. Gordon Williams, the general of the entire base. I interviewed him as well. He talks about how the fact that this got out. It was a memo that was written by deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, that leaked, and the whole story got out. But those are the cases that I'm talking about that represent that 5 or 10% core that, that cannot be explained away in conventional terms. DEFY, after exhaustive research ... I mean, Nick Pope talks about it at the MOD. He investigated it, 'cause it took place in England. He said there were radiation readings at the landing site.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did these, uh, uh, th- the crafts that happened at the base, did they have photograph of these things?
- JFJames Fox
Th- uh, well, D- Jim Penniston says that he took photographs, and then they said the photographs didn't come out. That's what they told him. And so-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, he took photographs to get developed.
- JFJames Fox
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then when they developed them, they saw the photograph.
- JFJames Fox
That's what they said to him, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. So, most likely they just said ...
- JFJames Fox
So, then, and then, uh, one of the things that Colonel Charles Halt said, the, the deputy base commander, is that a plane came in and there was some unknown government, US agency ... I know you guys are probably thinking I'm crazy now, but don't take it from me. I'm just telling you what they told me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JFJames Fox
Okay? That, that they came in and kind of sanitized the whole, the whole case. But that's a very good case, and it's one of the, the top cases that is extremely ... It's been investigated in England, it's been investigated in the United States, and all, a lot of the witnesses have come forward on the record.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, it's quite possible that somewhere in some archive, this photo exists, or some photos exist.
- 42:22 – 43:58
2017 NYT ‘genie out of bottle’: Mellon, leaks, and frustration with AARO
- JFJames Fox
Okay. Let me-
- JRJoe Rogan
So, but, but here's the question. If the, if the government keeps coming out and telling us that, you know, we may begin to face threats from outside of this world. If they're telling us that, you know, like, when they're discussing these things that they behave in a way that we can't describe, and no propulsion systems that we know of. If they're telling us all this, why wouldn't they release all that other stuff too? Why wouldn't they release those photographs for us to-
- JFJames Fox
What's in it for them?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what's in it for them to tell us about it in the first place?
- JFJames Fox
Well, they're not. People think-
- JRJoe Rogan
But what is, what's in it for them-
- JFJames Fox
People, people-
- JRJoe Rogan
... to even admit ... Well, I mean, just the, the, the way-
- JFJames Fox
People-
- JRJoe Rogan
... they're are addressing it now.
- JFJames Fox
People think that there was a sudden epiphany with the US government ...... that they wanted to be more transparent and they wanted the- the general public to know more about this phenomenon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JFJames Fox
That is not what happened. What happened is, a couple of insiders in December of-of-of-of 2017 walked some evidence out of AATIP, found a loophole, and put it on the front page of The New York Times. Now they can't-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, so it was leakers who did that? Really?
- JFJames Fox
Hell yeah, it was leakers who did that. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Interesting.
- JFJames Fox
It was Christopher Mellon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JFJames Fox
I actually got a phone call when the film was coming out and I got a phone call from Leslie Kean, and she goes, "Christopher Mellon told you that he was the one that walked the footage out of the Pentagon?" I said, "Yeah, it's on camera." She goes-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, Christopher Mellon s-
- JFJames Fox
He goes, she goes, "I can't believe that he didn't even want that in The New York Times. Like how..." You know, I- I said, "I don't know. He just, he just said it," and that's what happened.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JFJames Fox
It wasn't like suddenly the- the government had this epiphany. So now, they can't put the genie back in the bottle. Now you got the David Fravors, right? David Fravor's encounter is phenomenal.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJames Fox
I mean, come on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 43:58 – 56:21
Socorro (1964): Hynek’s turning-point case with beings, landing traces, and a ‘real symbol’ trap
- JFJames Fox
I mean, it's got photographic evidence. That tic-tac. I was investigating a landing case in Socorro, New Mexico. It j- it was April 24th, 1964. So I spent five years on this case. It was the case that turned around Dr. J. Allen Hynek.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JFJames Fox
Dr. J. Allen Hynek investigated UFO reports for the United States Air Force as a ti- scientific advisor for, from '47 to '69. He's the one that coined all the- the term close encounter of the first kind, close encounter of the second time- the second kind, and close encounter of the third kind. Okay? Close encounter of the first kind is when you see a UFO at close range. Close encounter the second time you see a UFO and somehow it interacts with the environment, whether like Richard Dreyfuss face got burnt, or it leaves marks on the ground, or it burns trees, whatever. The propulsion affects something. Close encounter of the third kind, now this is coming out of Air Force Project Blue Book's own files, this is not me saying this. Close encounter of the third kind is when beings are reported by the witnesses. So beings are associated with the craft are reported. One of the best, most well-documented cases in US history took place at Socorro, New Mexico, April 24th, 1964 at five o'clock with a police officer that was on duty by the name of Lonnie Zamora. The best case in US history. The best documented case. The first military officer, uh, to arrive on the scene got there, the- the- the bushes were still smoking. I mean, the imprints in the ground of the craft, the footprints, they got diagrams of this stuff. And I spent five years going back and forth to Socorro, New Mexico. I got to know the wife, Mary. I got to know the daughter, Diane. The son, Michael, his coworkers. I went to the National Archives with Ray Stanford, he wrote the book on it, Socorro Saucer and the Pentagon Pantry. Phenomenal case. And what I learned was that the, um, the Air Force, according to his own family, Lonnie Zamora's family told his daughter this, I have this on camera, the Air Force wanted him desperately not to talk about the beings. Like do, they discouraged him to talk about the beings, and I tell you why. It's one thing when you see an object, unknown object like David Fravor saw up in the sky exhibiting a technology that seems to defy conventional propulsion, and it's another thing altogether when you've got beings on the ground. The Air Force didn't want him talking about that, and that was one thing that his daughter and his wife told me clearly. And his wife said, "What, Lonnie was never the same after that, that case." But...
- JRJoe Rogan
So what did Lonnie see?
- JFJames Fox
Lonnie saw two beings at the base of a, of an egg-shaped craft that was landed in an arroyo in Socorro, New Mexico in broad daylight. Lonnie looked out the window of his patrol car, he saw something that caught his eye, and then this object landed. He drove, he- he was actually in hot pursuit at the time. He gave up pursuit to go investigate what was going on, and he sees this object on the f- on the- on the- in the arroyo, in the desert, on the ground. It's such a well-documented case. And he rolls down his car window and he's looking out and he is going, "Did, am I looking at like a- an overturned ca- what the hell am I looking at?" And then he sees two little figures, he said they were childlike, at the base of the craft, and one of them locked eyes with him. And, uh, his wife said he was never the same after that. But, um...
- JRJoe Rogan
H- how did he describe them? What'd they look like?
- JFJames Fox
He said they were child, uh, they were small, childlike. Small. And they had white coveralls, tight coveralls. This is a close encounter of the third kind.
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd they say their faces looked like?
- JFJames Fox
Uh, I, he didn't give a lot of detail. I've got... The only... So I went to Lonnie's house. I got to know his- his wife quite well. Lonnie had passed a couple years prior to that. And I, I don't know how far down the rabbit hole you wanna go in this case, 'cause we could talk on this case for three hours, but whatever. Um, I could tell you that I got access to, he had this black duffle bag, and it was with his wife's permission. He had kept all the original newsprints from, like the articles that had come out, and that's where I got the details. And he also talked about it in some recordings that I got from his family and other researchers. It's in the movie, The Phenomenon. And, um, that's where I got the primary description, 'cause the, uh, it was Richard T. Holder was the first military officer on the scene. The FBI got involved later and- and- and, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
How long were the, was that thing sitting out there for?
- JFJames Fox
Uh, the object was sitting on the ground not for very long, just a few minutes. Lonnie saw the beings and he went, like, around to get a closer look. I mean, he was like, "What the hell am I looking at?" And he, he drove his car around to get a closer look and he lost contact with, for a second while he drove around to get a closer look. Now he's within 50 feet of this egg thing sitting on the ground. And he gets outta the patrol car, it starts, uh, it- it starts making some weird noise and it has a blue flame that comes out, and he said it was, it was not like a, like a rocket flame where it would hit the ground and dust everything up, but it pierced the ground like a knife through warm butter.... and, um, then when it got about 20 feet off the ground, it went completely silent with no flame, no nothing. You could hear a pin drop. And there was a symbol on the side of the craft. It was in yellow, and it was about three feet tall, and it was, uh, like a V like this, two lines and a line on top. And, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's get a photo of that, uh, symbol that, that he recreated.
- JFJames Fox
Yeah. You'll see, you'll see, you'll see fake symbols, because Richard T. Holder asked him to draw a different symbol. I actually have the original symbol, um, on a document from Dr. Hynek.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why did someone ask him to draw a fake symbol?
- JFJames Fox
Because, because he said that if, if anybody else claimed to see the same craft with that symbol, they would immediately be able to identify a hoaxster.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. So which was the real one?
- JFJames Fox
The real one is that one right there with the two lines in that upside down V right there. That's the real one.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's the real one?
- JFJames Fox
Yeah. And I've got the document in Dr. J. Allen Hynek's own handwriting. Ray Sanford and I went to the National Archives and, and found it. It was a huge find.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they did that on purpose just in case some copycat people started coming up with-
- JFJames Fox
He did. Richard T. Holder ... And I met Richard T. Holder's two kids and talked to them about it. I me- I talked to his wife about it, and they said, yeah, he was, he was told that's not the genuine. That's the one right there, right there that you're looking at.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JFJames Fox
That's the real one, no question. So anyway, my point is-
- JRJoe Rogan
So he drew ... Is that his handwritten note over there that shows it?
- JFJames Fox
Yeah. That's, yeah, that's definitely ... I've actually had ... I actually found the original, one of those. There it is. That's it. That's the document that w- that I found with Ray Sanford at the National Archives in 2013. This is in Dr. Hynek's own handwriting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JFJames Fox
"Enclosed suggests any resemblance to the ..." and he draws this symbol of Socorro. Maybe we've ... Yeah. I mean, it was kind of-
- JRJoe Rogan
So this-
- JFJames Fox
... a genius move, quite honestly.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this was the case that turned J. Allen Hynek?
- 56:21 – 1:04:02
Moment of Contact stakes: ‘either a massive hoax or a crashed craft with live beings’
- JFJames Fox
and it's all just about that case. But, um, those are the... Should we get back to, like, to, to 45 and work my way up, or do you wanna talk a little bit about Moment of Contact?
- JRJoe Rogan
We can get-
- JFJames Fox
'Cause Moment of Contact is the case that could settle this debate once and for all, or-
- JRJoe Rogan
Let's tease people for a bit with Moment of Contact-
- JFJames Fox
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
... 'cause it is an amazing co-
- JFJames Fox
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... amazing documentary. He, he really nails-
- JFJames Fox
I won't go into details. I won't go into any details. I'll just say this. I will, I put my reputation on the line for this. I get it. It's, sounds so spectacular. It sounds so unbelievable.
- JRJoe Rogan
But when you watch the documentary-
- JFJames Fox
Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
... it sounds less specta- well, st- similarly spectacular-
- JFJames Fox
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but more believable.
- JFJames Fox
So, here's it, here's, here's the point.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JFJames Fox
It's either the most elaborate, complex hoax that involves half the town of Varginha. I think there's like 130,000 people living there. I mean, I go down to the town square and just start talking to people. I did it in the movie. And y- everybody's got a little piece of the puzzle. Most people have a piece of the puzzle. It's phenomenal. Or, a UFO crashed, live aliens were recovered, and the Americans... Uh, it was captured by the Ath- the Brazilian authorities, and the Americans stepped in and flew some of that back to the United States, and that's when the case goes cold. There's no in-between.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's definitely the sexiest version.
- JFJames Fox
The, well there, yeah, there's no-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right?
- JFJames Fox
... there's no in-between. But you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, you speak of the sexiest versions. This is a... I was looking up the thing in '94 in China-
- JFJames Fox
Oh, yeah?
- JRJoe Rogan
... and stumbled across this.
- JFJames Fox
Oh, good. Yeah, that's what I was saying.
- JRJoe Rogan
"The most bizarre contact in China occurred in June 7, 1994 when..." How do you say his name?
- JFJames Fox
Meng Zhaoguo.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Meng Zhaoguo of Phoenix Mountain, Fu- " how do you say that? Fujian? Fujian, Fujian Province, Province, "met a female alien. First, there was electricity between them, then things got amorous."
- JFJames Fox
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"According to Meng, the female alien looked like a white monster. She was very tall, about 2.5 meters, and wore tight clothes with only her big eyes and private parts exposed. She did something to him that felt like an electric shock, and he passed out. When he came round, he found several scars on his body. According to Wu, she planted something mung bean-sized in his body, into his body. Things were about to get even stranger. Meng had sexual intercourse with the female alien. She suddenly fell down on him. He could hardly move. His penis felt hot, then ached. The experience was more pleasurable than anything he had ever felt." That's him? Yeah, and then they gave him a lie detector test.
- 1:04:02 – 1:17:56
Inside Varginha: military shutdowns, the girls’ close encounter, stench, intimidation, and the doctor’s X-rays
- JFJames Fox
Can you see this?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JFJames Fox
This is Brigadier Jose Carlos Pereira of the Brazilian Air Force. Okay? I met with him, with Marco, on two occasions. The second occasion was 20-
- JRJoe Rogan
Put it in front of that camera. It might be even better, right?
- JFJames Fox
I'm so sorry. This is Jose-
- JRJoe Rogan
Would it be better if it was in front of that camera?
- NANarrator
No, that one's worse.
- JFJames Fox
Jose. Jose.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- NANarrator
That one's worse.
- JFJames Fox
No? Worse?
- JRJoe Rogan
Worse?
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. This is Jose.
- JFJames Fox
Focus. Got it.
- JRJoe Rogan
You can look him up. Jose Carlos Pereira, Brigadier, Brazilian Air Force. Okay? So, Marco and I met with him twice. The second time was 2013. He gave us an interview. Some of it's in the film. And, uh, he said like, "I'll talk about the 1986 UFOs over Brazil. I'll talk about the Colares case that happened in the '70s." Phenomenal photographic evidence that's out there. "You asked me about Varginha, and this inte- interview is terminated." Whoa.
- JFJames Fox
I was like, "What? What do you mean terminated?" Like, really? So anyway, we do the interview, and I was like, "Well, I'm not gonna ask him, I guess." But when the camera stopped rolling, I was like, "Please." I mean, Marco and I were begging and pleading with this guy. And I remember, looked him dead square in the eyes. I said, "I, I swear on my life, there are no recording devices. There are no, you know, cameras rolling. Please, tell us about Varginha. Why did you have that reaction to Varginha?" Marco was too. We were begging him. I was practically licking this guy's boots. And he's getting prepared to leave, and he's got a driver waiting for him outside. So, we're following and pleading with him all the way out there. "Please, just tell us. Please. I swear on my life this happened." He gets in the car, door's open. He looks up at... And the only reason why I'm telling you this 'cause he died. He looks up at Marco and I, and he goes, "It happened." (clicks tongue) Closed the door, and off he went. Now, the reason why I share that is because that's not something that I can put any weight on for the documentary for people like you, right? But as a personal message for me, knowing that level of validation on the inside, it kept us going. It was like, "Okay, why on earth would he have done that? Why on earth would he say..." And that kept Marco and I going, and that was a personal level of validation that-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is there any conventional explanation why the military shut everything down, why they had military barricades set up around that area?
- JFJames Fox
No. They did try to say that th- the creature was this guy who's l- got, like, some deformities. Um, but I've seen the guy, Modine or something like that. But, uh, you talk to the witnesses.
- JRJoe Rogan
But why would the g- why would the military-
- JFJames Fox
Yeah, I, I know.
- JRJoe Rogan
... shut the town down because a, a guy with deformities is there?
- JFJames Fox
Yeah, and then, and then for the doctors in the hospital, they said though there was an, like, like a midget having a baby or something weird. Just something that was just so ridiculous. It was like... And you talk to the witnesses, and they're just like, "Oh, come on. I'm not even gonna... You know, that's laughable at best." You know? I mean, these girls came within eight to 10 feet. Three, three women, Katia, two sisters, Liliane and Valquíria, 14, 16 and 21. They got within eight to 10 feet in broad daylight of this creature. And one of the things that doesn't come across in the film, when they saw this thing, they're looking like, "What are we looking at here?" They're walking through this field, and it's up against a cinder block wall. And one of them was looking at it and said, "Is that a s- What is that?" And it was crouched by the wall. It was weak and feeble. And, uh, one of them kind of, like, screeched. "Ah!" Like, "What is that?" And it turned, and it looked right at the girls, locked eyes on them.... Liliana grabs her younger daughter, her younger sister, who's 14, Valkyria, and makes a, hightails it out of there. Katya is 21. She's frozen in her tracks, locked eyes with this creature, and it's communicating with her, "Please help me. I'm s-" uh, it wants help. It's wea- it's weak and it's feeble and it's scared, and it's crouched down. Uh, Liliana realizes that Katya's back there. She gets, I don't know, 100 feet down the path. She leaves her sister, "Stay here, I'm going back to get Katya." She runs back, and I asked Katya and I asked all the girls, "During that moment of contact, when you lock eyes, I know it's only a brief second, but during that moment of contact, what did you feel? Like, put me there." That's where the title comes from, Moment of Contact, because that was when they locked eyes on this creature, and that's when Katya said, "Help me, I'm scared." And it was feeble and suffering. And it's, it's a very powerful moment. And, and, and these girls have been saying the same thing. The mother, it's the first time I'd ever reported on these so-called, like, men in dark suits that show up and intimidate witnesses. To be honestly, I'd been hearing about those cases for so many times, but I've avoided them because it's got so much baggage from Men in Black. It just, it's just ridicu- I just didn't even wanna be associated with it. But I'd heard it, I can go on until I'm blue in the face, I could go till tomorrow morning with the amount of cases, with generals too. But this time, when the mother said that these men showed up and tried to get the daughters to say they were lying and offered her a briefcase full of $100 bills and they could relocate, um, I don't know, for some reason I said, "Okay, for the first time in 25 years, I'm gonna report on these guys." And I did. And it's in the movie. You can hear the mother talking about it and she's so emotional, and the mother came back to the location right after it happened. The smell, that stench, and the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JFJames Fox
... foot print on the ground. I mean, everybody talks about that stench, that it was so ... They said if you were to take like a, a skunk, multiply that by like 100,000, that would give you some indication of the level of, like, how putrid and nasty. It was paralyzing. And it stayed in, like it stayed in the areas, like at the hospitals when they did the X-rays, and everybody talks about it, that stench. They're like, "It was just unbelievable." Like, it fills your nasal cavities and doesn't leave for a week. It was incredible. And then they all said the same thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they couldn't get it out.
- JFJames Fox
They couldn't get it out. Yeah, they sanitized the hospital. The, the guy said that he had to close off that wing of the hospital while they were sanitizing it 'cause it was so intense. You know, so I, I-
- JRJoe Rogan
How long did it last for?
- JFJames Fox
D- I heard days and weeks, is what I heard from people. And, and even the mother said when she, when she went to where the creature was, she said that the stench, even there after the creature was gone, got in her nasal cavities and she tried to flush it out with water and saline or whatever, and, and, and, uh, she just couldn't get it out of her nasal cavities. Really crazy, but they all did. I mean, everybody talked about that stench, you know? I mean, the military officer, the guy that drove the creature around, I was sitting across from him. You can't see his face, but I did, and I'm looking this guy in the eyes. I'm thinking, "I could be looking at a guy that drove a fucking alien around."
- JRJoe Rogan
(exhales sharply)
Episode duration: 2:28:37
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Transcript of episode ERMnvDv2exE
