Joe Rogan Experience #1976 - James Fox

James Fox 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Hello, James.

James Fox 0:13 Hello.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Good to see you, my man.

James Fox 0:14 Thank you so much for having me on.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Oh, my pleasure. The moment I saw that documentary, I was like, "W-," uh, let me just be honest, off, off the bat. I loved your first documentary, but when someone says there's a documentary about a crashed UFO and it happened in Brazil, I'm always like, "Man, people tell stories." You know? I'm like, "Maybe it was one of those."

James Fox 0:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:32 Like, I didn't think too much of it. When I hear stories, even Roswell, I always go, "Meh, I don't know. I don't know." It's so hard to know. 1947, you know, I think some shenanigans were going on, but what, what was it really, and how much of this is just people tell stories? And those stories grow and change over the years, and, and, you know, almost like the story becomes their real memory after a while, 'cause they've been doing it for, you know, so many, so many years. But then this one. This one, just right away, the way you captured all the, the information and the evidence and th- the eyewitness accounts, the photographs that people got, the, the depictions of the actual being, the fact that there was live beings, this is a re- it- and everyone that didn't even know each other having these, like, really similar stories about what they saw and when people got ahold of the wreckage. Like, when you first started making this documentary, did you have any apprehension, like, "Oh, this one may not ... How, how do I sell a documentary on a crashed UFO?" Like, "What's the best way to put this together?" 'Cause that's part of the art of what you do, right?

James Fox 1:43 You were skeptical. Let me tell you how skeptical I was.

Joe Rogan 1:47 (laughs)

James Fox 1:48 Okay? So I was making my second documentary on UFOs in the late '90s. I just finished a documentary called UFOs: 50 Years of Denial. I started on my second film. It was 1999. And I partner up with a couple of guys. Boris Zubov has been a partner. I'm still working with him today. And this guy Tim Coleman, who's a British reporter. And, uh, we ... Like, mapping out the film concept, like, "Hey, we should cover this case, and we should do that." And he's like, "Hey, mate, we gotta do this amazing UFO crash in Brazil where these aliens were walking around the town." And I looked at the guy, and I thought, "I think I picked the wrong partner. This guy's fucking batshit crazy." And literally, I dismissed it on the spot, and I refused to even read one word about it. I said, "There's no way in hell that that happened and the whole world doesn't know about it."

Joe Rogan 2:39 Right.

James Fox 2:39 So, and I, I have to remind your audience, I was making my second documentary.

Joe Rogan 2:45 On UFOs?

James Fox 2:46 On UFOs.

Joe Rogan 2:47 (laughs)

James Fox 2:47 And I dismissed it like this ... Like, how fast can you say Howdy Doody?

Joe Rogan 2:52 It just always seems like if someone's telling you about something like that, like, you would have heard about it.

James Fox 2:57 Absolutely. I c- I can't tell you, Joe, how quickly I dismissed it, and I didn't look into it till 2011. Okay? So here's what happened. I'm going to ... I get invited by this guy, A. J. Daverde, to a place called, uh, Pernambuco in, um, in, uh, Brazil. And, uh, I'm speaking at a conference about a film I did called I Know What I Saw. And, uh, this guy calls me. Jeff Sagansky was very high up on the food chain, uh, in the entertainment industry. He's been kind of like my mentor and opening doors for me over the years. And I've asked him over a period of time, like, "Why are you so kind to me?" He's a very wealthy guy in New York. And he goes, "You know, Jackie Gleason told me one time that these things were real. Don't, don't listen to anybody else. I know for a fact. And so when I saw you as an independent, struggling young filmmaker, I always wanted to lend a helping hand. And by the way, you're going to Brazil. You gotta look into that Varginha case." And I thought, "Oh God, not this again," right?

Joe Rogan 3:53 Aah!

James Fox 3:53 Swear to God. So I was like ... Well, I had a lot of respect for Jeff Sagansky. I mean, you can look him up. The guy's very famous. I mean very. Uh, he's big time. And I said, "Oh yeah, sure, Jeff, I'll look into that for you while I'm in Brazil," and, uh, just to be nice, right? But in the back of my mind, I was like, "I'm not wasting one second on that stupid case."

Joe Rogan 4:12 Ugh.

James Fox 4:13 Seriously, I'm, I'm telling you honest-to-God truth.

Joe Rogan 4:16 (laughs)

James Fox 4:16 And it was 2011. So I go to Brazil with the inte- with no intention of looking into it. Zero. Okay? I wasn't even gonna ask one question. And it just so happens that nuclear physicist and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman, rest in peace, and, uh, he's there at the conference. And somehow, the case gets brought up. It wasn't about that case, but it gets brought up, and he's like, "Oh yeah, I was in Brazil when that went down." And he's one of the smarter guys. Stanton Friedman?

Joe Rogan 4:44 Yeah.

James Fox 4:44 He is not an idiot. I mean, he's one of the reasons why him and Don Schmidt and Kevin Randle are one of the reasons why we're even talking about Roswell. And, uh, he's like, "Oh yeah, I was here when that, when that happened. I met some of the witnesses." So then that kind of piqued my interest. I was like, "Uh, okay. Well, got Stanton. I can't completely dismiss coming from Stanton." Then I met a couple of people at the conference, so I thought, "Uh, oh, okay. Well, I ... piqued my interest. I gotta be honest with you." And that's how it all started. And that was, like, in 2011. And I was gonna include a segment of it in The Phenomenon, but-

Joe Rogan 5:22 The interview with Stanton, is that ... did you get that?

James Fox 5:25 I got that in 2013.

Joe Rogan 5:27 Hmm.

James Fox 5:27 In Brazil.

Joe Rogan 5:28 'Cause he died when? Just a few years-

James Fox 5:29 He died, like, couple years ago. He died in the airport. You know what he told me? He's like, uh, "James, I'm retiring. I can't do this anymore. I live in Canada in this remote spot. There are no direct flights, and I'm always running in the airports trying to get my connecting flight, and I just, I can't do it anymore." And then he retired for, like, a year or so, and then he just ... he had to get back at it, and he died in the airport running for a connecting flight.

Joe Rogan 5:51 Oh, he had a heart attack running to-

James Fox 5:53 He had a heart attack. Yes.

Joe Rogan 5:53 Oh no.

James Fox 5:54 It's exactly what he predicted.

Joe Rogan 5:56 Goddamn it.

James Fox 5:57 I know, right? And I just, like-

Joe Rogan 5:59 He was a fascinating guy because he was an outspoken critic of Lazar, and I always wanted to get the two of them together. I was like, "I wanted to see," 'cause...One of the things that, uh, uh, th- the critics of Lazar always bring up is his education at MIT. I can explain that to you off-air in the way that he explained it to me, and it, it might make sense, but I think that it's hard to dismiss that he worked at that lab. Los Alamos labs had him on their, their, th- their list of people that worked there. Like he was on the, the, whatever that thing is that they have with all the list of employees. He was in it. Like he worked there. He knew all the people that worked there. He knew how it was set up. When they, when they took him there, he knew the security guys. He knew the machines that they used to, uh, uh, they, they had some sort of a scanner that measured the length of your digits exactly. So you put your hand on this thing, and, uh, he talked about it, and everybody was like, "What? That doesn't even exist." And then years later, people got photographs of this thing.

James Fox 7:02 George Knapp said he went through that Los Alamos-

Joe Rogan 7:04 Yeah.

James Fox 7:04 ... laboratory like, psh, just right through. Let me tell you, I ... This is, this is something that just came in yesterday that I, that I can for the first time ever talk about, uh, in full detail. I've talked about on ... I did a couple of podcasts where I gave, I don't know. In, in 1993, '94, I was working on my first film. I talked about it earlier. It's called UFOs. It's so '90s, but whatever. (laughs) UFOs: 50 Years of Denial. It's like 80 years of denial now. And, uh, I was interviewing this guy out at Area 50. He was like, lived on the outskirts of the base in, in a place called, um, l- uh, ali- the Lit- near the Little Ali Inn in Rachel, Nevada. And Chuck, this guy's name was Chuck Clark, and he had found all these ... And the relevance of what I'm telling you will come to light in a second here. He'd found all these vantage points on the mountaintops that he could spy on the base down below with high-powered telescopes stra- with, uh, with cameras. And he was taking photographs of diff- exotic airplanes coming out of the hangers and stuff like that. He wrote a book called like, uh, UFO Area 51, uh, Handbook and Guide or something. He was a, a- amateur astronomer. He was ... And he had a couple of really cool sightings out at Area 51 that were really ... Like he'd saw these ... It's in my movie. He saw these ta- these lights doing things that they shouldn't be doing, right? Like traversing and then stopping and then taking off really fast. So anyway, so I'm covering his story, 'cause I was intrigued. I mean, in, in, in the early '90s, the Bob Lazar thing was everywhere.

Joe Rogan 8:36 Yeah.

James Fox 8:36 I was making a doc on UFOs, so I was kind of looking into it. I wouldn't just like categorically believe it, but I'll look into it. So I was looking into it, and, uh, and I'm going back and forth out there for many times, and then one day, I get a phone call from Chuck Clark. And I'm back at home in Northern California, and this is kind of a long way away, and he goes, "James, I got something you need to see." I said, "Okay. Well, what is it?" "I can't tell you, but your jaw's gonna hit the floor when you see it." I was like, "That good?" He goes, "Oh, yeah. That good." I said, "I'm canceling all my plans," jumped in my car, and I drove straight through to Rachel, Nevada. I get to his house. This must have been ... I'm gonna guesstimate '95, '94, '95. Get to his house and he's got a double-wide right near the Little Ali Inn, and, uh, he pops in this VHS tape. And it was like, and it was like two guys on the quintessential road trip just to Area 50- you know, Area ... the, the surrounding areas, Rachel and the extraterrestrial lonely highway, and they're goofing off, the alien taking videos of each other. Just, just the typical road trip out to Area 51, right?

Joe Rogan 9:48 Blair Witch Project.

James Fox 9:49 Totally. And, uh, and then they're goofing off next to the photographs of the alien and the crashed disc, and then they're inside the Little Ali Inn, and I'm like, "Okay, where is this going?" Then all of a sudden, and I saw this with my own eyes, all of a sudden, the car is parked, and it's parked out by the black mailbox in the desert, and it's dusk. The camera is on the armrest between the two seats, and it's slightly cocked, like it's like, it's not level. And it's filming the dashboard and the screen, the, the windscreen, windshield, and, um, and there's two guys in there sounding like, You can't see them, sounding like they're trying to crawl under the seats. I mean, they're freaking out. And then one of them goes, "It's, it's over the top of us! It's over the top of us!" And I'm like, "Damn, what is this video? Like what am I ... " you know. Then all of a sudden, the car lights up on the inside, but the source of light is above it, like if you can imagine ... I'd never seen anything like this. If you could put a pendulum with a light source above a vehicle, like above the car, like this-

Joe Rogan 11:00 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 11:00 ... but very slow in fluid motion, like rocking back and forth, the shadows and the lights on the inside of the car are doing this really eerily... You've never seen anything like it. I'm looking, I'm like, "My God, what is going on?" And they're very scared. And one kid, who's the younger of the two, is like, "I'm getting out. I'm getting out of the car." "No, stay in the car. It's over the top of- stay in the fucking car!" He goes, "No, I'm getting out," and he gets out, and he videotapes a disc that was so low you could've hit it with a rock. And I'm looking at this thing, and I'm like, "That's what all the witnesses have tried to describe. That's ... Like if, if you can imagine the skin on the craft glowing like phosphorus on a beach, that's what it looked like. Like the skin was alive. And it had like, um, like a yellowy-orange color to it, but you could clearly see it was a disc. I mean, it was not an orb. It was a disc, but the metal lit up like it was alive. I- I- I'd never seen anything like it. And it, and it just wobbled like it was unstable, like doing this.... and the camera guy goes, "Oh my God," and then something about the batteries, and then (fingers snap) boom, it shuts off. (scoffs) I looked over at Chuck Clark, I said, "This is the video everyone's been waiting for. Unbelievable."

Joe Rogan 12:31 How do you know this is real? 'Cause every-

James Fox 12:33 If it's not real-

Joe Rogan 12:34 ... all my BS meters are going off right now.

James Fox 12:36 I... Dude, fair enough. I get it. Fair enough. I saw this video with my own eyes.

Joe Rogan 12:40 Of course.

James Fox 12:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:41 It's a video, though.

James Fox 12:41 It's a video, for sure. No question about it.

Joe Rogan 12:43 And you know they make fake videos.

James Fox 12:45 Absolutely. It was 1995, and they could have, but why wouldn't... If-

Joe Rogan 12:48 1995, it's harder.

James Fox 12:50 Yeah, it wa- but, but why? It's never been released to the public. Why would you create a fake video?

Joe Rogan 12:55 (clicks tongue) What year did you see it?

James Fox 12:56 I saw it, like, '95.

Joe Rogan 12:58 (clicks tongue) And so it's out there somewhere.

James Fox 12:59 No, it's not. It's n- Chuck Clark's d- got a copy of it. The, the story continues.

Joe Rogan 13:03 No, but I mean, it... someone has it.

James Fox 13:05 Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, in fact, if, if those two boys that, that shot it are out there, please come forward. Like, please.

Joe Rogan 13:14 Wh- How come no one's acquired this?

James Fox 13:16 So, so I, I said to Chuck, "Oh my God, this is great. I can use this in my, in my movie." Right? "Great." He goes, "Oh, no. No, no, they're terrif-" I said, "Well, look, just put me in touch with the guys. You don't have to, like, give-"

Joe Rogan 13:29 But wait a minute. They're terrified, but they give it to a guy who lives in a trailer?

James Fox 13:33 I'm just... Hey, I'm just telling you-

Joe Rogan 13:34 Do you even know what I'm saying though?

James Fox 13:36 Huh? Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 13:36 "Hey, I'm really terrified-

James Fox 13:37 I-

Joe Rogan 13:37 ... I don't want this getting out, but I'm gonna give it to you-

James Fox 13:39 I get it.

Joe Rogan 13:39 ... a guy who lives in a trailer."

James Fox 13:40 I get it.

Joe Rogan 13:41 What does this guy do for a living?

James Fox 13:43 He's a... He was a former military guy, and he's, he's retired. But-

Joe Rogan 13:46 Just a retired military guy who lives in a trailer.

James Fox 13:48 Hey, but sit with me for a minute here.

Joe Rogan 13:48 This guy's a fed.

James Fox 13:49 So, I know-

Joe Rogan 13:49 That, that... He doesn't even live there.

James Fox 13:50 But, no, but-

Joe Rogan 13:51 (laughs) He probably put on some fucking overalls-

James Fox 13:53 Okay, so the story gets better.

Joe Rogan 13:54 ... to hang out with you.

James Fox 13:55 The story gets better.

Joe Rogan 13:55 Is his name Ray Epps?

James Fox 13:56 I, I know, Joe. I... Believe me, I get it, but the story gets better-

Joe Rogan 14:00 Okay, okay.

James Fox 14:00 ... just sit tight-

Joe Rogan 14:01 Okay.

James Fox 14:02 ... because I went on a couple of podcasts, and I said, "Screw it, I don't care anymore. I saw this video. I'm gonna start talking about it." Chuck Clark said, "If you ask me again after, like, 10 years or 12 years, I'm never talking to you again." So I was like... I, of course, asked him again. I said, "I'll give you 30 grand for the video," and he's not talking to me. So I went on, like, Concrete podcast, and I went on this guy Julian Dorian's podcast, and I went on a bunch of other podcasts, and I gave the whole story. Let's let somebody else pick up the ball and run with it. I'm just telling you what I saw, okay? (breathes deeply) I get a c- I get contacted a couple years ago by a, by a guy who goes, "I saw that video too." Then another guy contacts me, and he goes, he goes, "I got... I'm a private investigator. I find people." I said, "Well, his name's Chuck Clark. Go, go to it," so he finds him. (clicks tongue) Right at that time, I'm going on the Impulsive podcast with, with, uh, Logan Paul, and I tell Logan Paul the story, and he has exactly the same response you have, and I don't blame you. Okay? I'm not here to convince anybody of anything. I'm just telling you what I saw. It was very impressive what I saw, very impressive. If it was a fake, my God, that was well done. Bet it- I mean, he should be making movies with Spielberg. So anyway...

Joe Rogan 15:16 What is this channel's name who has this again?

James Fox 15:18 Chuck Clark.

Joe Rogan 15:18 Chuck. What are you doing, Chuck?

James Fox 15:20 So... Well, let me finish. So Logan Paul, he's like, "I wanna, I wanna go to this guy's house." I said, "H- I got the guy. He's got the information." Logan's all kinda... This is all behind the scenes. So (laughs) Logan Paul takes... Uh, I put him in touch with this guy, and this guy lives in the middle of nowhere. I mean, it was like... Logan Paul takes a Mercedes with a bunch of guys and $100,000 in cash, a big brick, and he goes out to this guy's house in the middle of the desert, and Logan calls me in the middle of nowhere, and he's like, "Are you sure your contact's legit, dude? My phone doesn't work. I'm in the middle of nowhere. I got 100K cash in my pocket. I can't find this guy." (laughs) I said, "No, I'm sure he's good," you know? And, uh, so Logan goes in there and meets Chuck Clark, and Chuck Clark's like, "Yeah, got the tape right here." And so he says, "I'll give you 100 grand for it," and the guy says, "No way," and so Logan Paul was the... Gonna re- reveal this for the first time. Logan Paul has got a button camera on his je- on his dress- on his clothes. So Logan Paul's like, "All right, well this guy doesn't wanna... You know, he's gonna die with it, so let's get, you know, let's get this thing on camera." So Logan's like, "Well, let me see it at least." So Logan, like, looks at it with this thing and, "Oh, could you show it to me again?" Gets another angle, gets another angle, and, uh, and then he leaves. So Logan's like, "I don't know if I wanna go public. I mean, I, I don't really own the video. I, I don't know. I... seems like a bit of a gray zone." So I said, "Look, you know, this is a story that might be of interest to Bob Lazar, because maybe Bob Lazar c- should see this video, and he can make a determination." I'm just saying. Or maybe George Knapp or Jeremy Corbell might be interested. This is not my domain. I'm not a Bob Lazar big guy. I don't know m- a muff about... Bob La- I met Bob Lazar in the early '90s, and he told me... I came up to him at a conference, and I said, "Hey, thank you for coming forward," and he said, "I, I didn't have a choice." That was my only... I, I don't know anything about the case. I know you know way more than I do about the case, but I'm just saying. I'm just putting this out there because-

Joe Rogan 17:30 How do I know more about the case than you?

James Fox 17:32 Well, I, because I-

Joe Rogan 17:32 You literally make documentaries-

James Fox 17:34 I do.

Joe Rogan 17:34 ... on UFOs.

James Fox 17:35 I do, but I, I, (sighs) I mean, you got one person's account-

Joe Rogan 17:39 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 17:39 ... and it's fascinating, and I believe that Lazar believes what he's saying. But I've talked to George Knapp about this, and George said same thing. I said, "Maybe, I mean, just maybe," and I'm not out here attacking Lazar or Corbe- nobody else. I'm just saying maybe he was used as a disinformation plant that seeds some real information and some bogus information just to kinda test the waters and the reaction from the public. I, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 18:03 Most certainly, that's possible.

James Fox 18:05 Yeah. I, I really-

Joe Rogan 18:06 Most certainly, that's possible.

James Fox 18:07 Not my domain.

Joe Rogan 18:08 It's al- also, I would imagine if you're gonna give people access to classified information like that, you'd be very careful, and you would probably...... add in some stuff that's not true.

James Fox 18:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:19 So, it doesn't matter whether or not, a- as long as like, they have a bunch of stuff that's absolutely provable nonsense-

James Fox 18:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:25 ... on top of the stuff that's-

James Fox 18:27 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:27 ... probably real, then they get discredited.

James Fox 18:30 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:30 Which, you know, I mean, look, there's a lot of weird stuff about the Bob Lazar story, a lot of weird stuff about it. And the, the st- the, the one that sticks in my mind, and I know this probably shouldn't because it's possible to do, is that it's been consistent. His story's been absolutely consistent since the late 1980s.

James Fox 18:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:50 Now, that's possible, to develop a narrative, and if you're disciplined, and he's obviously very intelligent, you could just like, craft the longest con the world has ever known and make no money from it and turn your life upside down, and have the feds search your property, which they did-

James Fox 19:05 Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Joe Rogan 19:06 ... on, on video. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If they thought that he really was in possession of Element 115, and that there really is, uh, a stable version of this element that we discovered in a particle collider, or we, we accurately, they predicted it and then proved it to be real in a particle collider. But that wasn't until like, the, the 2000s. When was it like, when they ... I wanna say, was it like 2011 when they, uh, officially discovered Particle 115, or Element 115? But this element, he said was stable, wherever these beings are from, and they use it to propel their craft through a, a means of bypassing normal propulsion systems with some insanely sophisticated method, where they can pick points in space and they essentially just instantaneously traverse these points in space.

James Fox 20:02 I brought a photograph with me. Of course, I left it in the other room, but I'll bring it out at some point, and it was a guy named James Kibble. He's Australian. And it's about, uh, 19, it's April 1966. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I did, uh, a segment on a landing case that happened at Westall in 1966, which is a suburb, Westall Primary School, which is a suburb of Melbourne. Shane Ryan did a film on it. I just covered a section of it in The Phenomenon. And during my time in Australia, I'd heard about this guy, Jim Kibble, James Kibble, that shot a Polaroid of a disc a couple of kilometers away two days prior to the landing at the school. A lot of times when you have sightings, mass sightings like that, they're in and around the area for several days. So, it's very likely that those two are connected. My point is this. According to James Kibble, and he's in the film, he said the disc was kinda c- coming down like this over his garden, and he had his Polaroid camera, and he was gonna take pictures of-

Joe Rogan 21:06 Well, you're doing the same wobbling kind of motion-

James Fox 21:08 Yeah, he said this kind-

Joe Rogan 21:09 ... with your hand.

James Fox 21:09 I'm telling what he told me, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Okay.

James Fox 21:10 He said it was kind of wobbling down like a leaf, kind of.

Joe Rogan 21:13 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 21:13 And then, uh, he was like, "Holy shit," and he grabbed his, uh, Polaroid camera, and he said he did it so quickly, he smashed it in his face and he split his nose open, but he snapped one shot. And he said what it did was, is it went like this, which I ha-

Joe Rogan 21:28 Turns sideways.

James Fox 21:29 The photograph that I have shows it sideways. And I'll show it to you. I've got a, I scanned it from the original Polaroid. And then it shot off at an unbelievable rate of speed, according to him.

Joe Rogan 21:39 Exactly how Lazar describes-

James Fox 21:41 That's-

Joe Rogan 21:41 ... how these things work.

James Fox 21:42 That's, that's exactly my point. And when I interviewed all the children, now adults, that watched this thing land at this Westall Primary School in 1966, they said the same thing. It was sitting on the ground. They got up to, I think, around 10 feet away from it, which is pretty remarkable when you talk to witnesses, especially that many witnesses. I mean, there were roughly 300 kids. I didn't meet all 300 of them, in the playground when this happened. And including the science teacher, this guy, Greenwood, which I got him on camera for the first time in history, in The Phenomenon. And they said it got off the ground, and then it went like this. It turned like this.

Joe Rogan 22:18 Turns sideways again.

James Fox 22:19 And then it shot off at a high rate of speed. It's in the movie. You can hear all the testimonies.

Joe Rogan 22:22 It's the same thing.

James Fox 22:23 Yes. And I got a photograph of it like this, I'll show it to you.

Joe Rogan 22:25 And no sound.

James Fox 22:26 And no sound. A slight humming or buzzing sound. This is 1966. So, and I'm gonna get to this later when we can go back to moment of contact, but I'm gonna make the argument that some, and I cannot emphasize how many times we need to underline the word some, UFOs, UAP originate from a non-human intelligence. And I'll start off in '45, and I'll take us up to modern day.

Joe Rogan 22:54 Okay.

James Fox 22:55 Just a handful of cases that I am, I have personally investigated. I have personally met the witnesses, gone to their houses, dating back to '45, '47, '52, '57, '55, '60s, '64, like all these cases. Okay? So basically, what I'm gonna do is, we all know, we know that the vast majority of these cases can be explained in conventional terms. All this noise about Chinese balloons and, uh, weather balloons, and that's all noise. It's obfuscation and noise. Yeah, we know that all that stuff exists. But what about the core 5 or 10% of cases? And I'm gonna give you some samples today. That truly, after extensive and exhaustive investigation, not because of a lack of data, that, that defy a conventional explanation. And those are the cases that I'll share with you today wh- when we're ready, but we can go back to moment of contact if you want.

Joe Rogan 23:51 Don't ... Let's go right into it.

James Fox 23:52 Oh, you wanna go right into it?

Joe Rogan 23:53 I'm so excited.

James Fox 23:53 All right. All right.

Joe Rogan 23:54 You got me so pumped up.

James Fox 23:54 Let's, let's do it. Let's do it. Here it is. Um-

Narrator 23:57 That's the Polaroid?

James Fox 23:57 Oh, you got it. You got it. That's the photo. It's, I got a much better copy, uh, outside, but see the way it turns sideways? Now, let me tell you, if you ever see a photograph of a UFO, and I've talked to NASA analysis about this, and it's cr- has a clearly defined edge, it's probably a fake. They somehow, they have something to do with a ... It, it's blurred around the edges. They don't get, they can't get a crisp photograph of a photograph. They think it has something to, to do with the propulsion. But again, that's not me saying this. I'm just-

Joe Rogan 24:24 That makes sense.

James Fox 24:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:25 If there's some sort of a field around it.

James Fox 24:27 I have a much better copy in, outside. But yeah, this is gives you an example.

Joe Rogan 24:30 You have a much better copy than this?

James Fox 24:32 I do. I scanned it from the original. It's in my bag. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:34 Go get the bag.

James Fox 24:35 Should I go get it?

Joe Rogan 24:35 Go get the bag.

James Fox 24:35 All right. I'll go get it right now.

Joe Rogan 24:37 You're crazy.

James Fox 24:37 Sorry.

Joe Rogan 24:37 Get the bag, man.Oh, it's right there.

James Fox 24:41 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 24:41 Exciting.

James Fox 24:42 And... Sorry about that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:42 Keep that up on the screen, please, Jamie.

James Fox 24:44 I thought I left it outside. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:45 Can I see the full f- the full f- how it's, uh...

James Fox 24:47 Okay, here it is. Look at this.

Joe Rogan 24:48 God, it's oddly centered.

James Fox 24:49 This is-

Joe Rogan 24:50 It's perfect.

James Fox 24:51 ... sent to me, this is sent to me by the guy-

Joe Rogan 24:53 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 24:53 ... who shot the Polaroid. Okay? There was his handwriting. This came from Australia.

Joe Rogan 24:57 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 24:57 Boom. Here it is. Check it out. And see the way it's sideways like that?

Joe Rogan 25:03 Yeah. I gotta put on my old man glasses.

James Fox 25:07 Yeah, I know, right? I got mine too. (laughs) And we can get into, we can get into my argument that I'm gonna put forth as if I'm presenting a case to a jury.

Joe Rogan 25:20 See, my, my number one problem always with these things is that I want it to be true so bad-

James Fox 25:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:27 ... that I worry that my rational, logical mind ignores all the possibility of-

James Fox 25:34 Don't-

Joe Rogan 25:34 ... of it being bullshit.

James Fox 25:35 Don't look at any one particular case. What you have to do-

Joe Rogan 25:38 I mean, I'm looking at it like this, this photograph.

James Fox 25:40 Which one is that? Ooh.

Joe Rogan 25:40 That's pretty good.

James Fox 25:41 Well, that's the same one. That's the same photo.

Joe Rogan 25:42 Yeah. So-

James Fox 25:43 Does that look like Cat Dog?

Joe Rogan 25:44 ... you, you gotta look at it like- Ah, to do it again. (laughs) Yeah. (laughs) Feel similar, bro.

James Fox 25:49 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:49 It's a bell. It's a school bell.

James Fox 25:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:51 Time's up, bitches. That's what they're tell them. They're, that's what it tells us.

James Fox 25:54 I know.

Joe Rogan 25:54 Times up, humans.

James Fox 25:56 Which, you can't base this stuff on any one-

Joe Rogan 26:00 It's a goddamn bell, James. He pipped it.

James Fox 26:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:01 It's over.

James Fox 26:01 You can't base-

Joe Rogan 26:02 The jig is up. Jamie, Jamie's on the case.

James Fox 26:04 Hey, all I could say, all I could say is that you talk to the witnesses.

Joe Rogan 26:09 I think if you picked it up, there's a hamburger underneath it.

James Fox 26:12 (laughs) You-

Joe Rogan 26:12 That's what I think. It's like a fancy restaurant hamburger.

James Fox 26:15 This is your meal, sir.

Joe Rogan 26:16 Monsieur.

James Fox 26:17 Monsieur, it is wafafin.

Joe Rogan 26:18 Fries.

James Fox 26:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:19 You know the kind where they don't put the, the bun together, you gotta do it together yourself?

James Fox 26:24 The bu-

Joe Rogan 26:24 The burgers just sitting there.

James Fox 26:25 But you, you, you can't... You look at the preponderance of eyewitness testimony from around the world, right?

Joe Rogan 26:30 Yeah.

James Fox 26:30 You don't look at any one particular case. You look at one particular case, you think, "Oh, I see some cracks in that case." I get it. I get it.

Joe Rogan 26:36 Find one of them lids. Some one of them food lids.

James Fox 26:38 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:38 That's what I'm talking... That's what it is. It's 100%. We cracked the case.

James Fox 26:42 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:44 (laughs) So-

James Fox 26:44 It's a food lid.

Joe Rogan 26:46 The burger's underneath it.

James Fox 26:47 Yeah.

Narrator 26:48 You can see the top thing.

Joe Rogan 26:50 Well, Jamie, that's the propulsion system, you fool. Don't you understand UFO physics?

James Fox 26:55 I don't know which way it's going in the photo.

Joe Rogan 26:57 That's the way it's going, that way. I don't know which way it's going.

James Fox 27:00 You could, you c-

Joe Rogan 27:00 It's going that way or this way.

James Fox 27:01 You could, you could pull up, uh, McMinnville, Oregon, uh, 1950, Evelyn and Paul Trent, pretty good photographs of disks in broad daylight.

Joe Rogan 27:08 Oh, yeah?

James Fox 27:08 Yeah, they're pretty good.

Joe Rogan 27:09 What is, what is it again?

James Fox 27:10 McMinnville, Oregon, 1950. Evelyn and her husband Paul Trent snapped I think three, two or three photographs of, of a disk in broad daylight.

Joe Rogan 27:18 You know I know Barney Hill's, uh, granddaughter?

James Fox 27:21 That's incredible.

Joe Rogan 27:21 Yeah.

James Fox 27:22 She was in a f-

Joe Rogan 27:22 She fights in the UFC. She's a badass.

James Fox 27:24 Yeah, that's what I heard about that.

Joe Rogan 27:25 Angela Hill. She was on the podcast, and she told me about that after we got off the air. I'm like, "What?" I almost wanted to... I should've brought her right back in. Look at that.

James Fox 27:33 Oh, there's a better one. Hold on. Uh.

Joe Rogan 27:36 It's a hubcap.

James Fox 27:36 Nope, it's the... Look, look, look.

Joe Rogan 27:38 It's definitely a hubcap.

James Fox 27:38 Yeah, that one there, that's good. That's, yeah, that's pretty good.

Joe Rogan 27:41 That one-

James Fox 27:41 I've got, I've over there is a hubcap. I've got that extremely high resolution. But you've got two eyewitnesses never made a dime out of the story. It's been analyzed to death.

Joe Rogan 27:49 Show me that hubcap one.

James Fox 27:52 Oh, that one, that's-

Joe Rogan 27:53 You've seen this before.

James Fox 27:53 ... that's 1960.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Yeah, that's a hubcap.

James Fox 27:55 No, that's a-

Joe Rogan 27:55 That's a hat.

James Fox 27:56 ... that's Rex Heflin. No, look at-

Joe Rogan 27:58 (laughs)

James Fox 27:58 That's Rex Heflin, Santa Ana, California.

Joe Rogan 28:01 Hmm.

James Fox 28:02 And there are several Polaroids from Rex Heflin. You can look up Rex Heflin. It's a pretty damn good case.

Joe Rogan 28:07 All, all jokes aside-

James Fox 28:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 28:08 ... how many of these do you think are fake?

James Fox 28:10 Well, I'm showing you the ones that I, that have been scrutinized to death. And, uh, no one has made any serious, uh, claims of, of being a hoax on the cases that I'm giving you right now.

Joe Rogan 28:21 So that image right there, could you bring me that again, Jamie? That image right there, it's like I feel like-

James Fox 28:27 Uh-

Joe Rogan 28:27 ... someone could fake that.

James Fox 28:28 But you gotta listen, you gotta listen to the testimony of Evelyn Trent and her husband Paul, and you gotta listen to-

Joe Rogan 28:33 I c-

James Fox 28:34 ... the analysis that Condon Committee did on this, and Bluebook did on this.

Joe Rogan 28:36 On the photograph?

James Fox 28:37 Yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 28:38 What do they say about the photograph?

James Fox 28:39 Well, here's the thing. Everybody's like, "Okay, eyewitness testimony is not good enough."

Joe Rogan 28:44 No, it's, it's-

James Fox 28:45 Or what...

Joe Rogan 28:45 I'm not saying that.

James Fox 28:46 Yeah. No, no, I know.

Joe Rogan 28:46 Um, um, I think... Listen, if you had a unique experience-

James Fox 28:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 28:50 ... if you were out in the desert and you're driving to Nevada, and all of a sudden your engine lights went off, Close Encounters of the Third Kind style, and you got out and there was a fucking disk, and it, it hovered over you for a second and then it took off at an insane rate of speed, and you're just left there alone with this memory.

James Fox 29:05 Yeah. And guess-

Joe Rogan 29:06 I, I sympathize with those people, because in the vast universe that we exist in, it's entirely possible that something like that has the power to get here. It's entirely possible. Also, people are full of shit.

James Fox 29:19 No question.

Joe Rogan 29:19 There's a lot of people that are full of shit.

James Fox 29:21 No question.

Joe Rogan 29:22 And that's, that's part of my problem.

James Fox 29:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:24 My problem is not that I don't believe. My problem is I don't believe people that much.

James Fox 29:29 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:29 And I do believe some people, and there's some sincere people, and that's one of my problems with Bob Lazar. I believe Bob Lazar.

James Fox 29:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:35 When I talk to that guy, I like, I like what you say, I believe he believes what he's saying. And there's something to that. I, but I also think, God, if you wanted to get someone that you could easily discredit, if you had a propulsion system that was baffling you-

James Fox 29:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:49 ... and you had some wizard who likes to make hydrogen powered Corvettes and he put a rocket engine in the back of a Honda. Did you ever see that?

James Fox 29:56 I did.

Joe Rogan 29:56 He, he's-

James Fox 29:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:57 ... a psycho. Like, so he's a guy who understands propulsion systems. He's clearly brilliant. You listen to the guy talk, he's off the charts intelligent.

James Fox 30:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:05 And you would say, "Let's bring that fucking psycho over here. Let's, let's have that guy go down there." I mean, this guy's out there in the fucking desert shooting AK47s and shit. He's a wild man.

James Fox 30:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:14 Right? So, you bring that guy, and you tell him, "Hey, uh, tell us what this is. Go to work." And he's walking around there and he's like, "What the fuck is this?" Like, that's the kinda guy you'd... If you were at the end of your rope-

James Fox 30:29 Yeah, I-

Joe Rogan 30:30 If you know, if, especially if you're a brilliant person, if you're a brilliant person and you happen to be a general or happen to be someone who's in charge over there, and you are thinking, like, "We gotta look outside the box. Like, we gotta do something, we gotta bring in other perspectives," and you gotta bring in someone...... that's not gonna be able to communicate with other scientists. This is part of the problem. They can't share data. They can't, they can't p- peer review with other scientists all over the world because it's top secret shit. So everything has to stay within this small group, very small group of people, and none of them are cracking it. All of them they bring in, they're fucking stunned and baffled. So you keep funneling new people in. They do experiments. Something blows up, some people die, and you're like, "Okay, hm, uh, w- we'll try some more. What else you got? Well, we got this guy at Los Alamos Lab. He puts fucking rocket engines in the backs of Hondas, and he's a propulsions expert. He's kinda nuts, but maybe bring him in."

James Fox 31:24 Yeah, so, uh, I'll get back to my domain because I... this is the stuff that I know, and I know primarily 'cause I went and interviewed the witnesses.

Joe Rogan 31:31 I just went off on a tangent there.

James Fox 31:32 But you know, it's all good.

Joe Rogan 31:33 I'm gonna, I'm gonna Bob Lazar our day.

James Fox 31:35 Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:36 (laughs)

James Fox 31:36 I just don't know the case well enough to comment on it. I mean, more than that, uh, the reason why I shared that, that video story is not because I'm sitting there telling you that's the definitive piece of evidence that the world's been waiting for, but it's very compelling, it's never been released, and I'm giving you guys a lead on that. This guy has it, Logan Paul-

Joe Rogan 31:54 So Logan Paul... Just put it out on your podcast.

James Fox 31:56 Uh, he might do that. So anyway, so-

Joe Rogan 31:57 Yeah, I mean if the guy sues you, the money that you'd make from having that-

James Fox 32:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:01 ... and releasing it would probably be way worth it.

James Fox 32:03 Uh, you know, and, uh, I hope if, if, if the two guys that shot it, one was 19, the other guy was close to 30.

Joe Rogan 32:09 So those guys are still alive?

James Fox 32:10 They're, they lived in Los Angeles, and they're definitely still alive. Yeah, they should be.

Joe Rogan 32:13 So if those guys are still alive, let's put together a documentary.

James Fox 32:17 Con- con- Te- Well, I'd like to see the original tape 'cause it's gonna be a lot better condition than our old VHS tape.

Joe Rogan 32:22 Tell these gentlemen I'll get you on the podcast. Come on.

James Fox 32:25 So-

Joe Rogan 32:25 Tell the story.

James Fox 32:25 ... contact me @jamescfox.

Joe Rogan 32:28 Oh, don't put your email. What are you crazy?

James Fox 32:30 No, that wasn't-

Joe Rogan 32:31 Delete that.

James Fox 32:31 ... I was... That was my Twitter.

Joe Rogan 32:33 Oh, okay.

James Fox 32:33 Yeah, just, uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 32:34 I was gonna say-

James Fox 32:34 ... my Twitter a- my Twitter handle.

Joe Rogan 32:35 ... I thought you were gonna give your email out.

James Fox 32:36 No, hell no.

Joe Rogan 32:37 I'm like-

James Fox 32:37 No, no, no, no, no, no.

Joe Rogan 32:37 ... my good Lord, sir. (laughs)

James Fox 32:39 No, no. I made a mistake in doing that one time on Larry King Live.

Joe Rogan 32:41 Oh, no. How many dick pics did you get? Any?

James Fox 32:47 I, I was-

Joe Rogan 32:48 (laughs)

James Fox 32:48 ... so inundated, I- I- I could not believe. I was like, "What was I thinking?"

Joe Rogan 32:53 Yeah, there's probably, like, millions of people watching that show.

James Fox 32:54 Oh, my Lord. It was crazy. Anyway-

Joe Rogan 32:57 And the people about... when it comes to UFOs-

James Fox 32:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 32:59 ... people are very passionate.

James Fox 33:00 Absolutely. So let me get back to-

Joe Rogan 33:01 Okay.

James Fox 33:02 ... my argument because-

Joe Rogan 33:03 Argument from 1945 forward.

James Fox 33:04 Yeah, let's go from 1945.

Joe Rogan 33:05 And I... Am I correct in... This is one of the things that I've always heard is that after the bombs were dropped-

James Fox 33:10 Yes.

Joe Rogan 33:10 ... that's when the UFOs started showing up?

James Fox 33:12 Well, that's when, uh, the activity certainly heightened, and, uh, yeah. So let's g-

Joe Rogan 33:18 Is there any indication that they were directly connected other than the fact that they'd just show up? Was there e- was there ever any-

James Fox 33:28 So I'll tell you-

Joe Rogan 33:30 ... any testimony?

James Fox 33:30 I'll tell you. I'll tell you, uh, how it organically came upon m- my attention. I was working with this guy, Lance Monge. He was one, one of the editors that was working on The Phenomenon with me, and, uh, we were doing this archive from a guy, this guy named David Marler's got this incredible archive of UFO material dating right back to the '40s all the way up to modern day. Newspaper headlines, audio recordings, statements, uh, broadcast, uh, unbelievable... The biggest archive, you could spend the rest of your life in there. So he gave me a bunch of stuff that was, uh, uh, archive interviews of primarily people at White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base, different areas in Texas, and, uh, I was just putting it in. It's kind of like a little montage in the piece of just giving the i- illustration that these things are going on all, kind of all over. And my buddy goes, "Hey man, let's, let's put a map on the wall and put pins in the map for all these different locations." So I was like, "Oh, okay, sure. Let's do that." So we put a map on the wall in the edit room when we were doing The Phenomenon, and we were putting pins in, and we looked at each other after, like, a day or two, and we were like, "Look at proximity to Trinity Site. Wow, even Socorro, White Sands, this place in Texas." Like, "That's kind of unusual." We're kinda scratching our heads. "Do you think there's a correlation?" So anyway, we didn't really take it much further than that, but we definitely took notice, and then I met with Senator Harry Reid. Thank you, George Knapp for helping make that happen. Uh, former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, he started the AATIP program, and, and during the interview, I, I didn't think about asking him this, but at the end... And he had, like, "I'll be... I'll have 47 minutes with you, and then I gotta go," and he's got all the security guards and big guys with thi- earpieces looking at me, and I said, "Well, s- or sir, would you mind if we could, um, do a quick walk and talk?" He goes, "Yeah, I'll give you 45 seconds." So I figured, "Well, while I'm walking with Senator Reid, I'm gonna ask him what was o- one of the more astonishing aspects of The Phenomenon that they uncovered during this Pentagon UFO program?" And right away without hesitation, he goes, "The fact that there are incursions over our nuclear missile facilities, nuclear armed facilities, uh, that is of, of grave concern." That just... That was a shocking aspect of The Phenomenon, and I thought back to that map that we'd done in the edit room. So I was like, "I gotta, I gotta go back to the drawing board." So I spent a year. I contacted this guy named Robert Hastings, who's the, the, the guy who wrote the book on the connection between UFOs and nukes.

Joe Rogan 35:55 What is the book?

James Fox 35:56 Uh, uh, his name is Robert Hastings. Um, um, UFOs and Nukes, I, I think. But in any case, I contacted him, and he's like, "Oh, I've, I'm, I'm not doing too well. I got this heart condition. I tell you what, you can have all my archives, all the videos that I shot." So I went through all of it, and I put together just, like, a five or 10-minute segment in The Phenomenon, that connection. And you got all these, like, missile control launch officers and people at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Minot Air Force Base talking about these incredible incursions. And keep in mind, you're talking about people that we entrusted with the secure s- sc- like, sec- securement and, and, and deployment of nuclear weapons. Okay? So if these guys are lying, that's a problem, and if these guys are hallucinating when they've got nuclear weapons at their disposal, that's terrifying. And it's happening all over. I mean, there is... I don't... I've got at least 15 or 20 of these guys testifying, and Robert Hastings got a bunch more.

Joe Rogan 36:54 And-

James Fox 36:54 My point is, there is a... there does seem to be a connection.I interviewed this guy, Robert Salas. Robert Salas was a ... Lieutenant Robert Salas, launch control officer, United States Air Force, has this incredible encounter in, in Malmstrom. Or i- his people do. And UFO-sighted, a disc, and then his nukes start shutting down. He said to me, I'll never forget this, and this is like 2002, this is part of Out of the Blue. He goes, "Well, James ..." Very calm. You could see why he was a launch control officer, very measured. Everything that came out of his mouth was calm and measured. He goes, "Well, James, the way I see it, it's kind of like taking matches out of the hands of a baby."

Joe Rogan 37:37 Whoa.

James Fox 37:38 Yeah. Whoa, right?

Joe Rogan 37:39 Well, that makes sense.

James Fox 37:40 So, there's a preponderance of testimony from these guys, and they're testifying right now to AARO, S- Sean Kirkpatrick. But w- we can get back to m-

Joe Rogan 37:49 What does AARO stand for?

James Fox 37:51 Look it up. It's an acronym. It's, it's the new UAP task force. There's, there was, uh, a- there was OSAP, then it went to ATIP, then it went to UAP task force, then it went to-

Joe Rogan 38:00 Why do they keep changing the name?

James Fox 38:01 I know, they keep changing the name.

Joe Rogan 38:02 Like a boy band or ...

James Fox 38:02 Maybe it's like a re- like a rebranding or something.

Joe Rogan 38:04 (laughs)

James Fox 38:05 Do you know? It's it's a d- uh, All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office.

Joe Rogan 38:09 Did you see the, the, the photo that I posted on Instagram of the story of the guy from Space Force?

James Fox 38:15 Yeah. Just, yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:16 It says, "We may be facing threats outside this world."

James Fox 38:20 (sighs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:20 What the fuck does that mean?

James Fox 38:22 I don't ... I, I just don't even want to spend any time ...

Joe Rogan 38:23 "Space Force boss acknowledges the US will begin facing threats outside of Earth." What the hell are you saying (laughs) ? What are you saying, man? What does that mean?

James Fox 38:34 Can I, can I read a statement that ...

Joe Rogan 38:37 Can I ask you one question before-

James Fox 38:38 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 38:39 ... because we're on the, still on the subject of the nuclear bases?

James Fox 38:41 This is, this is the exactly, this is relevant to this.

Joe Rogan 38:43 How many of them were there? How many different sightings were at these missile bases? And in areas where they're testing nukes?

James Fox 38:52 There are a lot of cases. I think cases in just about all the, uh, installations in the United States. I mean, Robert Hastings can ... I mean, I put-

Joe Rogan 39:00 Every installation-

James Fox 39:01 I-

Joe Rogan 39:01 ... in the United States has cases?

James Fox 39:02 I, I can't say that definitively. Robert Hastings-

Joe Rogan 39:05 But a lot of them do.

James Fox 39:06 A lot of them. I put 15, 20, 25? Let me give you another example. Joint Base, uh, Rendlesham Forest, December 1980. It's a joint British-US base. It's called the Rendles- Rendlesham Forest incident. There was a landing, December 1980. You've got Jim Penniston, John Burroughs, and this guy, Ed Cabansag, thinking that, like, something crashed in the forest or something. They went out to investigate, and there's an object sitting on the forest floor. It's a, it's a, kind of like a triangular-shaped object, and it's dark, and it's warm to the touch, and they sat with it on the ground. Cabansag act- acted like as a relay between the base and where this object had sit on the ground. Jim Penniston took photographs of it. He had his, uh, log book. He wrote down the symbols that were on the craft, which were crazy. And, um, then the deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, I interviewed him. He had, uh ... 'Cause sightings can happen over a period, uh, of a week or more, a lot of times when you get these mass sightings. And e- even the deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, became a witness. He was skeptical, and then he too became a witness, and he said that these objects ... There's a recording of him while it's happening. It's, it's out there in the, in the ether. They were shooting beams of light down into the weapons storage area. That was December 1980. Um, phenomenal case, the Rendlesham Forest incident. These are like the cases-

Joe Rogan 40:33 How ... What did this object look like?

James Fox 40:35 It was a triangular-shaped object, not that big. I don't know, maybe six feet high, and it was black, and he said it was warm to the touch. And it didn't make any sound, very little sound, and then it lifted off the s- the forest floor, maneuvered up through the trees, then shot off at a high rate of speed. Now, these are people that are responsible for the security of our nuclear weapons saying this. The deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, saying this. Gordon Williams, the general of the entire base. I interviewed him as well. He talks about how the fact that this got out. It was a memo that was written by deputy base commander, Colonel Charles Halt, that leaked, and the whole story got out. But those are the cases that I'm talking about that represent that 5 or 10% core that, that cannot be explained away in conventional terms. DEFY, after exhaustive research ... I mean, Nick Pope talks about it at the MOD. He investigated it, 'cause it took place in England. He said there were radiation readings at the landing site.

Joe Rogan 41:27 Did these, uh, uh, th- the crafts that happened at the base, did they have photograph of these things?

James Fox 41:32 Th- uh, well, D- Jim Penniston says that he took photographs, and then they said the photographs didn't come out. That's what they told him. And so-

Joe Rogan 41:39 So, he took photographs to get developed.

James Fox 41:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:41 And then when they developed them, they saw the photograph.

James Fox 41:42 That's what they said to him, yes.

Joe Rogan 41:44 Yeah. So, most likely they just said ...

James Fox 41:46 So, then, and then, uh, one of the things that Colonel Charles Halt said, the, the deputy base commander, is that a plane came in and there was some unknown government, US agency ... I know you guys are probably thinking I'm crazy now, but don't take it from me. I'm just telling you what they told me.

Joe Rogan 41:59 Okay.

James Fox 42:00 Okay? That, that they came in and kind of sanitized the whole, the whole case. But that's a very good case, and it's one of the, the top cases that is extremely ... It's been investigated in England, it's been investigated in the United States, and all, a lot of the witnesses have come forward on the record.

Joe Rogan 42:15 So, it's quite possible that somewhere in some archive, this photo exists, or some photos exist.

James Fox 42:22 Okay. Let me-

Joe Rogan 42:22 So, but, but here's the question. If the, if the government keeps coming out and telling us that, you know, we may begin to face threats from outside of this world. If they're telling us that, you know, like, when they're discussing these things that they behave in a way that we can't describe, and no propulsion systems that we know of. If they're telling us all this, why wouldn't they release all that other stuff too? Why wouldn't they release those photographs for us to-

James Fox 42:47 What's in it for them?

Joe Rogan 42:48 Well, what's in it for them to tell us about it in the first place?

James Fox 42:51 Well, they're not. People think-

Joe Rogan 42:52 But what is, what's in it for them-

James Fox 42:53 People, people-

Joe Rogan 42:53 ... to even admit ... Well, I mean, just the, the, the way-

James Fox 42:55 People-

Joe Rogan 42:55 ... they're are addressing it now.

James Fox 42:56 People think that there was a sudden epiphany with the US government ...... that they wanted to be more transparent and they wanted the- the general public to know more about this phenomenon.

Joe Rogan 43:07 Right.

James Fox 43:07 That is not what happened. What happened is, a couple of insiders in December of-of-of-of 2017 walked some evidence out of AATIP, found a loophole, and put it on the front page of The New York Times. Now they can't-

Joe Rogan 43:22 Oh, so it was leakers who did that? Really?

James Fox 43:23 Hell yeah, it was leakers who did that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:24 Interesting.

James Fox 43:24 It was Christopher Mellon.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Okay.

James Fox 43:27 I actually got a phone call when the film was coming out and I got a phone call from Leslie Kean, and she goes, "Christopher Mellon told you that he was the one that walked the footage out of the Pentagon?" I said, "Yeah, it's on camera." She goes-

Joe Rogan 43:37 Well, Christopher Mellon s-

James Fox 43:39 He goes, she goes, "I can't believe that he didn't even want that in The New York Times. Like how..." You know, I- I said, "I don't know. He just, he just said it," and that's what happened.

Joe Rogan 43:46 Hmm.

James Fox 43:46 It wasn't like suddenly the- the government had this epiphany. So now, they can't put the genie back in the bottle. Now you got the David Fravors, right? David Fravor's encounter is phenomenal.

Joe Rogan 43:56 Yeah.

James Fox 43:57 I mean, come on.

Joe Rogan 43:58 Yeah.

James Fox 43:58 I mean, it's got photographic evidence. That tic-tac. I was investigating a landing case in Socorro, New Mexico. It j- it was April 24th, 1964. So I spent five years on this case. It was the case that turned around Dr. J. Allen Hynek.

Joe Rogan 44:15 Hmm.

James Fox 44:16 Dr. J. Allen Hynek investigated UFO reports for the United States Air Force as a ti- scientific advisor for, from '47 to '69. He's the one that coined all the- the term close encounter of the first kind, close encounter of the second time- the second kind, and close encounter of the third kind. Okay? Close encounter of the first kind is when you see a UFO at close range. Close encounter the second time you see a UFO and somehow it interacts with the environment, whether like Richard Dreyfuss face got burnt, or it leaves marks on the ground, or it burns trees, whatever. The propulsion affects something. Close encounter of the third kind, now this is coming out of Air Force Project Blue Book's own files, this is not me saying this. Close encounter of the third kind is when beings are reported by the witnesses. So beings are associated with the craft are reported. One of the best, most well-documented cases in US history took place at Socorro, New Mexico, April 24th, 1964 at five o'clock with a police officer that was on duty by the name of Lonnie Zamora. The best case in US history. The best documented case. The first military officer, uh, to arrive on the scene got there, the- the- the bushes were still smoking. I mean, the imprints in the ground of the craft, the footprints, they got diagrams of this stuff. And I spent five years going back and forth to Socorro, New Mexico. I got to know the wife, Mary. I got to know the daughter, Diane. The son, Michael, his coworkers. I went to the National Archives with Ray Stanford, he wrote the book on it, Socorro Saucer and the Pentagon Pantry. Phenomenal case. And what I learned was that the, um, the Air Force, according to his own family, Lonnie Zamora's family told his daughter this, I have this on camera, the Air Force wanted him desperately not to talk about the beings. Like do, they discouraged him to talk about the beings, and I tell you why. It's one thing when you see an object, unknown object like David Fravor saw up in the sky exhibiting a technology that seems to defy conventional propulsion, and it's another thing altogether when you've got beings on the ground. The Air Force didn't want him talking about that, and that was one thing that his daughter and his wife told me clearly. And his wife said, "What, Lonnie was never the same after that, that case." But...

Joe Rogan 46:37 So what did Lonnie see?

James Fox 46:38 Lonnie saw two beings at the base of a, of an egg-shaped craft that was landed in an arroyo in Socorro, New Mexico in broad daylight. Lonnie looked out the window of his patrol car, he saw something that caught his eye, and then this object landed. He drove, he- he was actually in hot pursuit at the time. He gave up pursuit to go investigate what was going on, and he sees this object on the f- on the- on the- in the arroyo, in the desert, on the ground. It's such a well-documented case. And he rolls down his car window and he's looking out and he is going, "Did, am I looking at like a- an overturned ca- what the hell am I looking at?" And then he sees two little figures, he said they were childlike, at the base of the craft, and one of them locked eyes with him. And, uh, his wife said he was never the same after that. But, um...

Joe Rogan 47:24 H- how did he describe them? What'd they look like?

James Fox 47:25 He said they were child, uh, they were small, childlike. Small. And they had white coveralls, tight coveralls. This is a close encounter of the third kind.

Joe Rogan 47:34 What'd they say their faces looked like?

James Fox 47:35 Uh, I, he didn't give a lot of detail. I've got... The only... So I went to Lonnie's house. I got to know his- his wife quite well. Lonnie had passed a couple years prior to that. And I, I don't know how far down the rabbit hole you wanna go in this case, 'cause we could talk on this case for three hours, but whatever. Um, I could tell you that I got access to, he had this black duffle bag, and it was with his wife's permission. He had kept all the original newsprints from, like the articles that had come out, and that's where I got the details. And he also talked about it in some recordings that I got from his family and other researchers. It's in the movie, The Phenomenon. And, um, that's where I got the primary description, 'cause the, uh, it was Richard T. Holder was the first military officer on the scene. The FBI got involved later and- and- and, uh...

Joe Rogan 48:20 How long were the, was that thing sitting out there for?

James Fox 48:22 Uh, the object was sitting on the ground not for very long, just a few minutes. Lonnie saw the beings and he went, like, around to get a closer look. I mean, he was like, "What the hell am I looking at?" And he, he drove his car around to get a closer look and he lost contact with, for a second while he drove around to get a closer look. Now he's within 50 feet of this egg thing sitting on the ground. And he gets outta the patrol car, it starts, uh, it- it starts making some weird noise and it has a blue flame that comes out, and he said it was, it was not like a, like a rocket flame where it would hit the ground and dust everything up, but it pierced the ground like a knife through warm butter.... and, um, then when it got about 20 feet off the ground, it went completely silent with no flame, no nothing. You could hear a pin drop. And there was a symbol on the side of the craft. It was in yellow, and it was about three feet tall, and it was, uh, like a V like this, two lines and a line on top. And, um-

Joe Rogan 49:18 Let's get a photo of that, uh, symbol that, that he recreated.

James Fox 49:21 Yeah. You'll see, you'll see, you'll see fake symbols, because Richard T. Holder asked him to draw a different symbol. I actually have the original symbol, um, on a document from Dr. Hynek.

Joe Rogan 49:31 Why did someone ask him to draw a fake symbol?

James Fox 49:34 Because, because he said that if, if anybody else claimed to see the same craft with that symbol, they would immediately be able to identify a hoaxster.

Joe Rogan 49:40 Oh. So which was the real one?

James Fox 49:42 The real one is that one right there with the two lines in that upside down V right there. That's the real one.

Joe Rogan 49:49 That's the real one?

James Fox 49:49 Yeah. And I've got the document in Dr. J. Allen Hynek's own handwriting. Ray Sanford and I went to the National Archives and, and found it. It was a huge find.

Joe Rogan 49:57 So they did that on purpose just in case some copycat people started coming up with-

James Fox 50:01 He did. Richard T. Holder ... And I met Richard T. Holder's two kids and talked to them about it. I me- I talked to his wife about it, and they said, yeah, he was, he was told that's not the genuine. That's the one right there, right there that you're looking at.

Joe Rogan 50:12 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 50:13 That's the real one, no question. So anyway, my point is-

Joe Rogan 50:16 So he drew ... Is that his handwritten note over there that shows it?

James Fox 50:19 Yeah. That's, yeah, that's definitely ... I've actually had ... I actually found the original, one of those. There it is. That's it. That's the document that w- that I found with Ray Sanford at the National Archives in 2013. This is in Dr. Hynek's own handwriting.

Joe Rogan 50:32 Hmm.

James Fox 50:32 "Enclosed suggests any resemblance to the ..." and he draws this symbol of Socorro. Maybe we've ... Yeah. I mean, it was kind of-

Joe Rogan 50:39 So this-

James Fox 50:39 ... a genius move, quite honestly.

Joe Rogan 50:42 So this was the case that turned J. Allen Hynek?

James Fox 50:44 So, yeah. So what happened was, Jacques Vallee was writ-

Joe Rogan 50:48 So that's what it looked like, similar? So- so similar to a Tic Tac?

James Fox 50:52 Yeah, that's what it looked like. But when it got, when it got to about 20 feet off the ground, it went completely silent. No blue flame, nothing. The landing gear retr- was retracted. It was just an egg. And it, it floated off in the distance. In fact, Lonnie ... I've got a, I've, I've got an interview with Lonnie where he says that w- one of the officers who arrived on the scene, um, actually saw it fly off, off in the distance, and it was witnessed by other people in the town that saw this thing flying.

Joe Rogan 51:16 Didn't the, the Tic Tac, the people who saw the Tic Tac, including Commander Fravor, didn't he say that they ... some sort of, uh, thing that almost looked like landing gear? Some sort of-

James Fox 51:24 No, there was something that, that-

Joe Rogan 51:26 ... fin line?

James Fox 51:26 ... protruded out in the front of it or something. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 51:28 Yeah.

James Fox 51:29 But the ... but apparently, the video, I think it was according to Fravor, the video is ... the one that's been out is a lot ... the resolution's a lot worse than, than what other people had seen at the time. I remember, I'm pretty sure David Fravor said that to me.

Joe Rogan 51:41 So does-

James Fox 51:41 But-

Joe Rogan 51:42 I'll let you go ahead.

James Fox 51:42 But, yeah. So I- I just, I ... So I just recently went ... I'm filming a new doc, and I went to Washington, DC for a month to get kind of caught up on what's been happening, 'cause a lot's been happening. While I'm doing Moment of Contact, there's an unprecedented effort in Washington, DC to push for further government transparency. Marco Rubio, uh, Senator Gillibrand, uh, André Carson, Representative André Carson, who got the congressional hearings that happened last year, uh, Gallego, Representative Gallego and Gallagher have all been involved, and others. And so I got introduced to some intelligence folks on the inside, and they wanted me to read this to your audience, okay?

Joe Rogan 52:21 Okay.

James Fox 52:21 And this is about evidence.

Joe Rogan 52:22 Okay.

James Fox 52:24 So and this was in ... pretty much a reaction to the latest hearing that happened with Gillibrand just a couple of days ago, or last week. "I will remain anonymous, but I have been monitoring the UFO?" And I met this guy. I know this guy. This guy's legit. "The UFO/UAP activity and the authorities' response to them. I can assure you there's a lot more evidence behind the curtain that hasn't been released. First, our military are, and have been seeing remarkable things in the sky, in the oceans, and on the land for years. Of those reported, where does all this information get stored? Authorities would have you believe that this data is destroyed, but unique data is stored somewhere to be reviewed later. And as someone that has seen the classified holdings, I am very disappointed in the fact that Dr. Kirkpatrick showed some of the most mundane videos to the public. I do understand that there are security factors to be considered, so I'm hoping that Senator Gillibrand saw something much more interesting in her closed door hearing with Kirkpatrick. And why did only two senators show up for the hearing? Have they lost faith in Kirkpatrick already? I applaud Senator Gillibrand's efforts to find the truth, but I am more sure than ever that Kirkpatrick is not the one."

Joe Rogan 53:40 Hmm. Interesting.

James Fox 53:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:41 So he's withholding some information.

James Fox 53:43 Yeah. These people went on camera for me. It's gonna be released when the time is right.

Joe Rogan 53:47 Hmm.

James Fox 53:47 But I've got ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:48 Again, it's one of those things conveniently ... Like Lucy pulling the ball away from Charlie Brown.

James Fox 53:54 I- it's-

Joe Rogan 53:54 Right when you get close.

James Fox 53:56 ... so, it's so frustrating.

Joe Rogan 53:58 I can only imagine.

James Fox 53:59 So frustrating.

Joe Rogan 54:00 Christopher Mellon said that there's very high resolution photographs and-

James Fox 54:04 So he now has a ... He just, he just met with me in DC, and he's now told me that there is satellite data. And the only reason why he talked about it is 'cause Ratcliffe mentioned it. So he's like-

Joe Rogan 54:15 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 54:15 ... "Well, Ratcliffe mentioned it, so I'll mention the fact that Ratcliffe mentioned it. It's satellite data." And I was like, "Well, how b- how good are the photographs?" I want to know so bad. You know me.

Joe Rogan 54:24 Yeah.

James Fox 54:24 Like, come on, I've been looking at this for 30 years.

Joe Rogan 54:25 Yeah.

James Fox 54:26 "How good are the photographs?" He goes, "James, 4K. Just think about as good as you can imagine of craft." And to know that ... And I spoke to five other people that are part of the program, or, or, or had the top secret clea- the clearances to access this, and they all confirmed. And it's like they're just on the other side of that curtain. Could like ... Could somebody just get those out here, please? (laughs) Like, please.

Joe Rogan 54:49 Do you think we're closer than ever to those things being leaked?

James Fox 54:52 I think that if we keep the pressure on, I think it's very important. One of the things that concerns me a little bit is that th- sometimes they could leak something that looks amazing, right-... and then you put your fingerprints all over it-

Joe Rogan 55:06 Mm-hmm.

James Fox 55:06 ... and you send it out into the ether, and then it's-

Joe Rogan 55:08 Yep.

James Fox 55:08 ... a proven d- gets debunked.

Joe Rogan 55:10 Right.

James Fox 55:10 So, you gotta be kinda careful if you don't know providence.

Joe Rogan 55:13 Right.

James Fox 55:13 And so, it's a-

Joe Rogan 55:14 I would imagine they would do stuff like that on purpose.

James Fox 55:16 Oh, these guys are so smart.

Joe Rogan 55:17 I would certainly-

James Fox 55:17 They're, like, five steps ahead of us-

Joe Rogan 55:19 Of course.

James Fox 55:19 ... you know? So, but, you know, I know what I know, not 'cause I read it out of a book, but be- I actually went into the field. I mean, I traveled. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I was interviewing generals and cosmonauts in Russia back in the l- late '90s. I went to China, I went to Australia, I went to Africa, I went to Russia, as I was just saying, all across Europe. I really wanna know. Like, I'm so curious, and I like to go to location, and I like to... Like, I'll give you an example. I found out in China, just a couple years ago, there's a case that happened in 1994, the same time as Ruwa, called Meng Zhaoguo in the Black Forest of China. And these guys, in the middle of nowhere, relayed the same telepathic message that the children received in Ruwa, Zimbabwe in sep- in, in, uh, 1994 at Ariel School. And by the way, uh, I, I did include a piece of that in the film that I did with the, with the girls. I don't know, it's only like 10 minutes long. Quite fascinating. That's a damn good case. That's in one of the 10% cases that I talk about. But there's a film out now, I think it's called Ariel Phenomenon,

James Fox 56:21 and it's all just about that case. But, um, those are the... Should we get back to, like, to, to 45 and work my way up, or do you wanna talk a little bit about Moment of Contact?

Joe Rogan 56:31 We can get-

James Fox 56:32 'Cause Moment of Contact is the case that could settle this debate once and for all, or-

Joe Rogan 56:39 Let's tease people for a bit with Moment of Contact-

James Fox 56:41 Okay.

Joe Rogan 56:41 ... 'cause it is an amazing co-

James Fox 56:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:43 ... amazing documentary. He, he really nails-

James Fox 56:45 I won't go into details. I won't go into any details. I'll just say this. I will, I put my reputation on the line for this. I get it. It's, sounds so spectacular. It sounds so unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 56:55 But when you watch the documentary-

James Fox 56:57 Uh-

Joe Rogan 56:57 ... it sounds less specta- well, st- similarly spectacular-

James Fox 57:01 Yes.

Joe Rogan 57:01 ... but more believable.

James Fox 57:02 So, here's it, here's, here's the point.

Joe Rogan 57:03 Okay.

James Fox 57:04 It's either the most elaborate, complex hoax that involves half the town of Varginha. I think there's like 130,000 people living there. I mean, I go down to the town square and just start talking to people. I did it in the movie. And y- everybody's got a little piece of the puzzle. Most people have a piece of the puzzle. It's phenomenal. Or, a UFO crashed, live aliens were recovered, and the Americans... Uh, it was captured by the Ath- the Brazilian authorities, and the Americans stepped in and flew some of that back to the United States, and that's when the case goes cold. There's no in-between.

Joe Rogan 57:35 That's definitely the sexiest version.

James Fox 57:37 The, well there, yeah, there's no-

Joe Rogan 57:38 Right?

James Fox 57:38 ... there's no in-between. But you-

Joe Rogan 57:40 Uh, you speak of the sexiest versions. This is a... I was looking up the thing in '94 in China-

James Fox 57:43 Oh, yeah?

Joe Rogan 57:43 ... and stumbled across this.

James Fox 57:44 Oh, good. Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Joe Rogan 57:46 "The most bizarre contact in China occurred in June 7, 1994 when..." How do you say his name?

James Fox 57:51 Meng Zhaoguo.

Joe Rogan 57:51 "Meng Zhaoguo of Phoenix Mountain, Fu- " how do you say that? Fujian? Fujian, Fujian Province, Province, "met a female alien. First, there was electricity between them, then things got amorous."

James Fox 58:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:05 "According to Meng, the female alien looked like a white monster. She was very tall, about 2.5 meters, and wore tight clothes with only her big eyes and private parts exposed. She did something to him that felt like an electric shock, and he passed out. When he came round, he found several scars on his body. According to Wu, she planted something mung bean-sized in his body, into his body. Things were about to get even stranger. Meng had sexual intercourse with the female alien. She suddenly fell down on him. He could hardly move. His penis felt hot, then ached. The experience was more pleasurable than anything he had ever felt." That's him? Yeah, and then they gave him a lie detector test.

James Fox 58:46 And he passed it?

Joe Rogan 58:47 I don't, it doesn't say.

James Fox 58:48 I did not hear about that-

Joe Rogan 58:49 A lot of people pass those.

James Fox 58:49 ... aspect of the encounter. I heard about-

Joe Rogan 58:51 A lot of people pass those, especially crazy people.

James Fox 58:52 Too. Yeah. I, I did not hear about that aspect of it. But any, and I didn't, I didn't go... But my point is-

Joe Rogan 58:58 That dude was banging aliens.

James Fox 58:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:59 Respect.

James Fox 59:00 (laughs) R- respect.

Joe Rogan 59:02 Respect. That's right, it takes a lot of courage. But I, I was very attracted to the Avatar lady, the big blue one that saves him.

James Fox 59:08 So-

Joe Rogan 59:08 She's hot. Yes.

James Fox 59:09 So-

Joe Rogan 59:09 Yes.

James Fox 59:10 ... she's hot. Well, we'll, we'll go back here. Let's, let's go, let's go back (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:14 (laughs) I think she's hot.

James Fox 59:16 Let's, let's go back because-

Joe Rogan 59:17 I'd fucking switch right over to that girl.

James Fox 59:19 I, I am (laughs) here... So, th- we'll get back to Moment of Contact. I just wanna say the last thing with Moment of Contact, then we'll get back to these other cases. It's either the case we've all been waiting for, the case that could settle the debate once and for all, right? If it's true. Could you think of a more extraordinary... Let's just say, hypothetically for a moment, it happened as all the witnesses stated it happened. How big of a story do you think that is?

Joe Rogan 59:46 It's an immense story because it means that they're real. If it's true, then it means they're real. It means something that we d- don't understand was in the sky, got hit by lightning, got caught up in a, a furious lightning storm and wound up crashing. And that these things survived, and they got out, and the fact that one guy handled one of them and got this im- insane infection, and died very quickly afterwards, and he was a very young and healthy military man. And the fact that all these people have the same story. They all have the same, uh, depiction of the disc, the, the craft. They have the same depictions of seeing these beings.

James Fox 1:00:26 Not one witness came to us. We had to track down every one of those witnesses, and there's a story behind each and every one of them that I could go on for an hour for.

Joe Rogan 1:00:35 I'm sure.

James Fox 1:00:36 I won't bore you with the details, but suffice to say-

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 You wouldn't be boring-

James Fox 1:00:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Bro, we got a gravity bong over there.

James Fox 1:00:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 We could be here for days. (laughs)

James Fox 1:00:44 (laughs) Oh my gosh. I'd be like (sighs) .

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 I know.

James Fox 1:00:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 But there's nothing that goes better than marijuana and aliens.

James Fox 1:00:50 It, it, when I went... Every time I'd get back from Brazil, I'd get home, and people... And I'm out there for a month, knocking on doors, talking to witnesses, chasing people down, trying to convince them to come forward. Like, crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 Yeah, this is not like a, uh, uh, a quick venture-

James Fox 1:01:05 No, this went on-

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 ... to make this documentary.

James Fox 1:01:06 ... 12 years.

Joe Rogan 1:01:07 That's insane.

James Fox 1:01:08 And so-

Joe Rogan 1:01:08 Wow.

James Fox 1:01:09 And so, I'd come home from a trip in Brazil, and I'm telling you, man, it was like my mind was just torqued. I was so... I'm in another alternate reality, and I'm thinking, "Oh my God, I'm coming to the realization that this fucking happened." Right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 When that man...... takes you to the spot.

James Fox 1:01:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 And he gets overwhelmed with emotion.

James Fox 1:01:28 Yeah. He was gone for 25 years. Marco Leal. Thank you, Marco. And, and co. I said to Marco-

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 If, unless that guy-

James Fox 1:01:34 "We don't have a story. We gotta find, we gotta find Carlos De Souza."

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 Yeah. Unless that guy is a Daniel Day-Lewis-quality actor-

James Fox 1:01:41 We don't need Brad Pitt anymore, nor Leonardo DiCaprio. This guy-

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 That guy, if he's full of shit-

James Fox 1:01:46 Best actor of your-

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 He's one of the best actors ever. Because that moment when he gets to that spot, and he's overwhelmed with emotion, he starts tearing up and-

James Fox 1:01:53 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 ... and he's freaking out. Like, just imagine if, 25 years ago, you experienced something that literally destroyed your understanding of life itself in the universe, that there's a thing out there that can visit us that's different than us, and it's probably been here forever.

James Fox 1:02:11 My DP, David West, has been f- uh, shooting for over 40 years, and he's like, "I've never seen anything like that. That guy was... That's about as legit as I've ever seen. The guy was-"

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 It was so believable.

James Fox 1:02:20 Crying, and, I mean, not only that, but it's like, the guy disappeared. He's never made a dime off this. He gave one statement 26 years ago to a guy named Claudio Covo. Claudio Covo was an- an engineer, and he was a researcher, UFO researcher in Brazil. Thank you, may you rest in peace, Claudio Covo. And there was a guy named Ubirajara Rodriguez. He was a, a prominent lawyer. He's also investigated the case. We wouldn't know about this case if it hadn't been for a handful of dogged Brazilian UFO researchers. Peccaccini deserves credit. Uh, this guy named, um, uh, Marco Petit. Um, AJ Gevaerd. How these guys-

Joe Rogan 1:02:59 How big is it, Varginha? Is it-

James Fox 1:03:00 Varginha's-

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 ... would you say 150,000 people?

James Fox 1:03:01 ... I think it's like 130,000 that they, they say.

Joe Rogan 1:03:04 So it's like Boulder, Colorado-sized.

James Fox 1:03:05 Yeah, and, um, and s- the surrounding areas. But, you know, I, I, I was gonna include like, maybe like a... Like I did with Ruwa in The Phenomenon, I was gonna include like five or 10 minutes of that case in the f- And I just... I worked so hard for so long with so many people, and then I just deleted the whole thing out of the f- out of the film, and I was like, "Oh, God, Marco's gonna kill me when he sees this," that I just didn't include any of it, because I just couldn't squeeze it in-

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 Right.

James Fox 1:03:31 ... and there was too much. It was just too much.

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 Well, I'm glad you did it that way, honestly, because moment of contact is r- it's, it's, it, it's really good. There's a few of these documentaries that I go, "God." I shut them off, and I go, (sighs) "If that's real, holy shit." Imagine being those people. Imagine being these people in this small city of 150,000 people, and then something happens, and a fucking UFO crashes in a field and people witness it, and everyone is just stuck there. Then the military shuts the town down.

James Fox 1:04:02 Can you see this?

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 Yes.

James Fox 1:04:03 This is Brigadier Jose Carlos Pereira of the Brazilian Air Force. Okay? I met with him, with Marco, on two occasions. The second occasion was 20-

Joe Rogan 1:04:14 Put it in front of that camera. It might be even better, right?

James Fox 1:04:15 I'm so sorry. This is Jose-

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 Would it be better if it was in front of that camera?

Narrator 1:04:17 No, that one's worse.

James Fox 1:04:18 Jose. Jose.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 Yeah?

Narrator 1:04:19 That one's worse.

James Fox 1:04:19 No? Worse?

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 Worse?

Narrator 1:04:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 Okay. This is Jose.

James Fox 1:04:21 Focus. Got it.

Joe Rogan 1:04:22 You can look him up. Jose Carlos Pereira, Brigadier, Brazilian Air Force. Okay? So, Marco and I met with him twice. The second time was 2013. He gave us an interview. Some of it's in the film. And, uh, he said like, "I'll talk about the 1986 UFOs over Brazil. I'll talk about the Colares case that happened in the '70s." Phenomenal photographic evidence that's out there. "You asked me about Varginha, and this inte- interview is terminated." Whoa.

James Fox 1:04:49 I was like, "What? What do you mean terminated?" Like, really? So anyway, we do the interview, and I was like, "Well, I'm not gonna ask him, I guess." But when the camera stopped rolling, I was like, "Please." I mean, Marco and I were begging and pleading with this guy. And I remember, looked him dead square in the eyes. I said, "I, I swear on my life, there are no recording devices. There are no, you know, cameras rolling. Please, tell us about Varginha. Why did you have that reaction to Varginha?" Marco was too. We were begging him. I was practically licking this guy's boots. And he's getting prepared to leave, and he's got a driver waiting for him outside. So, we're following and pleading with him all the way out there. "Please, just tell us. Please. I swear on my life this happened." He gets in the car, door's open. He looks up at... And the only reason why I'm telling you this 'cause he died. He looks up at Marco and I, and he goes, "It happened." (clicks tongue) Closed the door, and off he went. Now, the reason why I share that is because that's not something that I can put any weight on for the documentary for people like you, right? But as a personal message for me, knowing that level of validation on the inside, it kept us going. It was like, "Okay, why on earth would he have done that? Why on earth would he say..." And that kept Marco and I going, and that was a personal level of validation that-

Joe Rogan 1:06:08 Is there any conventional explanation why the military shut everything down, why they had military barricades set up around that area?

James Fox 1:06:19 No. They did try to say that th- the creature was this guy who's l- got, like, some deformities. Um, but I've seen the guy, Modine or something like that. But, uh, you talk to the witnesses.

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 But why would the g- why would the military-

James Fox 1:06:31 Yeah, I, I know.

Joe Rogan 1:06:31 ... shut the town down because a, a guy with deformities is there?

James Fox 1:06:33 Yeah, and then, and then for the doctors in the hospital, they said though there was an, like, like a midget having a baby or something weird. Just something that was just so ridiculous. It was like... And you talk to the witnesses, and they're just like, "Oh, come on. I'm not even gonna... You know, that's laughable at best." You know? I mean, these girls came within eight to 10 feet. Three, three women, Katia, two sisters, Liliane and Valquíria, 14, 16 and 21. They got within eight to 10 feet in broad daylight of this creature. And one of the things that doesn't come across in the film, when they saw this thing, they're looking like, "What are we looking at here?" They're walking through this field, and it's up against a cinder block wall. And one of them was looking at it and said, "Is that a s- What is that?" And it was crouched by the wall. It was weak and feeble. And, uh, one of them kind of, like, screeched. "Ah!" Like, "What is that?" And it turned, and it looked right at the girls, locked eyes on them.... Liliana grabs her younger daughter, her younger sister, who's 14, Valkyria, and makes a, hightails it out of there. Katya is 21. She's frozen in her tracks, locked eyes with this creature, and it's communicating with her, "Please help me. I'm s-" uh, it wants help. It's wea- it's weak and it's feeble and it's scared, and it's crouched down. Uh, Liliana realizes that Katya's back there. She gets, I don't know, 100 feet down the path. She leaves her sister, "Stay here, I'm going back to get Katya." She runs back, and I asked Katya and I asked all the girls, "During that moment of contact, when you lock eyes, I know it's only a brief second, but during that moment of contact, what did you feel? Like, put me there." That's where the title comes from, Moment of Contact, because that was when they locked eyes on this creature, and that's when Katya said, "Help me, I'm scared." And it was feeble and suffering. And it's, it's a very powerful moment. And, and, and these girls have been saying the same thing. The mother, it's the first time I'd ever reported on these so-called, like, men in dark suits that show up and intimidate witnesses. To be honestly, I'd been hearing about those cases for so many times, but I've avoided them because it's got so much baggage from Men in Black. It just, it's just ridicu- I just didn't even wanna be associated with it. But I'd heard it, I can go on until I'm blue in the face, I could go till tomorrow morning with the amount of cases, with generals too. But this time, when the mother said that these men showed up and tried to get the daughters to say they were lying and offered her a briefcase full of $100 bills and they could relocate, um, I don't know, for some reason I said, "Okay, for the first time in 25 years, I'm gonna report on these guys." And I did. And it's in the movie. You can hear the mother talking about it and she's so emotional, and the mother came back to the location right after it happened. The smell, that stench, and the-

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 Yeah.

James Fox 1:09:16 ... foot print on the ground. I mean, everybody talks about that stench, that it was so ... They said if you were to take like a, a skunk, multiply that by like 100,000, that would give you some indication of the level of, like, how putrid and nasty. It was paralyzing. And it stayed in, like it stayed in the areas, like at the hospitals when they did the X-rays, and everybody talks about it, that stench. They're like, "It was just unbelievable." Like, it fills your nasal cavities and doesn't leave for a week. It was incredible. And then they all said the same thing.

Joe Rogan 1:09:45 And they couldn't get it out.

James Fox 1:09:46 They couldn't get it out. Yeah, they sanitized the hospital. The, the guy said that he had to close off that wing of the hospital while they were sanitizing it 'cause it was so intense. You know, so I, I-

Joe Rogan 1:09:57 How long did it last for?

James Fox 1:09:59 D- I heard days and weeks, is what I heard from people. And, and even the mother said when she, when she went to where the creature was, she said that the stench, even there after the creature was gone, got in her nasal cavities and she tried to flush it out with water and saline or whatever, and, and, and, uh, she just couldn't get it out of her nasal cavities. Really crazy, but they all did. I mean, everybody talked about that stench, you know? I mean, the military officer, the guy that drove the creature around, I was sitting across from him. You can't see his face, but I did, and I'm looking this guy in the eyes. I'm thinking, "I could be looking at a guy that drove a fucking alien around."

Joe Rogan 1:10:42 (exhales sharply)

James Fox 1:10:43 You have no idea, dude.

Joe Rogan 1:10:44 (laughs) .

James Fox 1:10:45 You have no idea.

Joe Rogan 1:10:46 How did he describe it?

James Fox 1:10:47 It was so fucking intense. When I came back from that trip, people were like, "How was your trip to Brazil? What was it like, man? They got great, you know, uh, smoothies and coffee." And I'm just like, "You guys have no idea. I think, I think an alien spaceship crashed and they recovered live aliens and we made contact and the Americans came and..." That's what I'm thinking about. So I told couple people. On the last trip, I came back, I was just like, I was so rocked. I couldn't re- I couldn't reintegrate back into culture. I was so ... Joe, I was just like, "Fuck, I think this happened." It's the biggest story ever. So people were asking me, even my neighbor who runs like the, he runs that Make-A-Wish Foundation, and he was like, "James." He goes, "Bro,