EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,000 words- 0:00 – 1:24
Relentless creative pace: writing, scripts, and never taking “six months off”
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumming music plays) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
- NANarrator
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) All right. We're up.
- JCJack Carr
And we are up.
- JRJoe Rogan
How are you? Good to see you-
- JCJack Carr
I'm great.
- JRJoe Rogan
... man.
- JCJack Carr
Great to see you.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JCJack Carr
(laughs) Ah. This is awesome.
- JRJoe Rogan
How does it feel to have another one done?
- JCJack Carr
Oh, it feels great, but there's another one in the works.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JCJack Carr
So it doesn't really-
- JRJoe Rogan
It never ends.
- JCJack Carr
... it doesn't really stop. I mean, I hear some guys like John Grisham talk about they do six months of work, and six months off, and that's kinda that, the routine that they've gotten on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JCJack Carr
But, uh, but for me, it's go, go, go, this, the next one, scripts, although the one pause-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you ever anticipate doing, like, a six month on, six month off thing? Or...
- JCJack Carr
Maybe when the kids are out of the house. Maybe someday way later on, but right now, it's still building. It's just like any entrepreneurial-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
... type of venture. You gotta just go and keep building, and take advantage of momentum, and look for gaps in the enemy's defenses, and adapt-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JCJack Carr
... and just go, go, go, go. So, it's, uh, it's a constant thing from the second I wake up 'til everybody else is in bed and I'm working for a few more hours.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, you gotta-
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... make hay while the sun's shining.
- JCJack Carr
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I think about that too with the podcast. I'm like, "One day, I'm gonna do..." You know, I do so many things. Sometimes I'm like, "One day, maybe I'll just do one thing."
- JCJack Carr
I don't know. Will you be able to do that?
- 1:24 – 3:38
Fame in public: blending in, airports, and the awkwardness of being recognized
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm bored at things.
- JCJack Carr
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, if someone takes me to a gala-
- JCJack Carr
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... and I have to dress like a monkey-
- JCJack Carr
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and sit there and wait.
- JCJack Carr
How many of those have you... You don't do those anymore, do you?
- JRJoe Rogan
I had to do one recently.
- JCJack Carr
Oh, for what?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Oh, oh, a, a friend.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There was a art thing that was going on here, so I had to-
- JCJack Carr
Alright.
- JRJoe Rogan
... dress up, and like, "Jesus Christ."
- JCJack Carr
So every now and again it's okay, maybe, but if it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
Maybe. It was okay because it was next to my friend.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
His wife, and my wife. It was fun.
- JCJack Carr
You gotta tell-
- JRJoe Rogan
But it's, for the most part, it's like, that's the only time I get bored.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah. That-
- JRJoe Rogan
Then I get hostile.
- JCJack Carr
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Then I have a couple of drinks, and I get a little hostile.
- JCJack Carr
Do you-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JCJack Carr
Are people nervous when you're there?
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- JCJack Carr
(laughs)
- 3:38 – 9:51
Veteran-made whiskey and “organic” product placement in The Terminal List
- JRJoe Rogan
In California. So what do, what are we drinking here? What is this?
- JCJack Carr
All right, so right here?
- JRJoe Rogan
Cheers.
- JCJack Carr
Cheers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Cheers.
- JCJack Carr
Thank you so much for everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure, brother.
- JCJack Carr
Amazing, amazing.
- JRJoe Rogan
And look at this.
- JCJack Carr
Let's see.
- JRJoe Rogan
The official Jack Carr leather-colored-
- JCJack Carr
There it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
... whiskey glasses.
- JCJack Carr
There it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right?
- JCJack Carr
The whiskey glasses. People are very fond of their whiskey.
- JRJoe Rogan
And who made this whiskey?
- JCJack Carr
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is not bad.
- JCJack Carr
So.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's very good.
- JCJack Carr
Here we go. So this is Hoot & Young right there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- JCJack Carr
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
And they made a-
- JCJack Carr
... uh, some veterans.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Jack Carr edition.
- JCJack Carr
Yep, Jack Carr edition right here. And, uh, so they're, uh, both veterans, but, uh, Norm Hooten was played by Eric Bana in Blackhawk Down. So he was a Delta operator who's now out, makes these c- makes cigars that, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, nice.
- JCJack Carr
... I'm gonna show you here in a second.
- 9:51 – 13:12
Cigars with history: WTC steel and sand from iconic battle sites
- JCJack Carr
... alcohol and we're on all that stuff, let me do this before I don't, uh... don't forget, because this is pretty- pretty amazing here. I know you like cigars and- and, um, as do I. And, uh, this right here... So, these cigars right here, Hoot & Young, the guys that we just talked to about this-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JCJack Carr
... uh, this whiskey. They have that Jack Harr edition right there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- JCJack Carr
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at the label.
- JCJack Carr
This is pretty cool. So what they did... It's a... They called me and- and I was kinda like a million things going on and- and I- and I pick up and they started to talk to me about this and it gave me goosebumps and, um, it's... This right here is World Trade Center steel.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JCJack Carr
Right here. Yeah. World Trade Center steel. The guys that put this together aren't just, uh... Hoot and Young, aren't just Norm Hoot. And there's some... I'm gonna call them two Army rangers and a Special Forces guy. But we can talk more about them. Just incredible human beings who have sacrificed so much for this nation. And so, they- they did this and then, he kept talking to me and he said, "Under these cigars, under each one right here..." So if I pull one of these out, you can see that there is some dirt under each one of these-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JCJack Carr
... right here. And it's laminated in there over the top. So there's dirt and there's a little laminate over it. And each one of these comes from a special place. And, uh... Right here. D-Day invasion, Sacred Sand recovered from Omaha Beach in Normandy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JCJack Carr
Right there. Largest amphibious invasion in history. So they have that there. Iranian hostage crisis, April 24th 1980, Operation Eagle Claw. So that's when they went in to try to rescue the American hostages in Iran, Tehran, and they landed at a place called Desert One. Uh, one of the refueling, um, uh, uh, birds hit one of the... Or one of the refueling C-130s hit one of the helicopters and there was an explosion and, uh, uh, people died and they had to abort- abort the mission. They didn't have enough helicopters to keep going, so they brought dirt back from that. There is not much dirt that they brought back, but there is some in here. And, uh, Battle of Mogadishu, October 3rd to 4th 1993, Operation Gothic Serpent. Uh, sand smuggled from the Black Hawk Down crash site in Mogadishu, Somalia.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, shit.
- JCJack Carr
Right under there. Uh, World Trade Center attack, Operation Enduring Freedom. The steel, um, right here. And, uh, Saddam Hussein, Operation Iraqi Freedom from March 20th 2003. Uh, so there is dirt from some amazing, um, uh, dates in special operations and military history in here. And, uh, each one of these cigars, you can tell right here, has...... there you go right here. You, right there. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's incredible.
- JCJack Carr
Amazing, yeah. Hoot & Young and then some guys that are, that are out there at the, at the tip of the spear that have, uh, have access to this dirt from places like Operation Eagle Claw, uh, Desert One outside of Tehran, Iran, is, uh, (taps box) is in here also.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. Put that back in.
- JCJack Carr
Wow. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
We're gonna save these for some-
- JCJack Carr
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
... special occasion.
- JCJack Carr
There we go.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's, that's amazing.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah. So I was blown away. So they made one for you, made one for me, and so we're the only two people to, uh, to have these. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's very cool.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah. Yeah. Operator cigars right there, and there you are-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- 13:12 – 17:22
Trademark wars and “be cool like Fonzie”: Jack Daniel’s lawyers vs. Carr Wine
- JCJack Carr
Absolutely amazing. And this stuff launches, I think today. You have to wait for the government. There's all sorts of things you have to hop through, you know, before they approve-
- JRJoe Rogan
For whiskey?
- JCJack Carr
Yeah. Before they approve it. And so this stuff, uh, I think it's launching tomorrow or today when this thing launches, but, um, so that'll be out there. And what's crazy is you have to go through these patent things, so not... Like, uh, trademark stuff, you know, with attorneys and things, and there's different, um, uh, little categories. So you have to do subcategories if you wanna patent the tro- Cross Tomahawks. So I have lawyers doing all that, and part of that's whiskey. And, uh, and so they did the whiskey one, and like right away the, the Jack Daniel's lawyers, boom, right on it. Like they are very aggressive when it comes to any whiskey that has Jack in it, even though it's obviously a different label, different style bottle, different, you know, no, no connection to it.
- JRJoe Rogan
They get upset at the name Jack?
- JCJack Carr
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Jack Carr?
- JCJack Carr
Yep. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't they just look at it and go, "Oh, that's the author"?
- JCJack Carr
That... Well, the... Well-
- JRJoe Rogan
Come on, Jack Daniel's.
- JCJack Carr
Jack... Seriously, Jack Daniel's has done so much for America's, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
We love you, Jack Daniel's.
- JCJack Carr
We love Jack Daniel's.
- JRJoe Rogan
Don't be cunts.
- JCJack Carr
I know. Seriously. But it's, uh... But they're very good. They did something with, uh, uh, they had a, like a dog poop, uh, thing that was out there with Jack Daniel's on it or something like that. You can look that up, but it was a big thing. I think it went to the Supreme Court recently. So, point being they're very aggressive. We do love Jack Daniel's, um, but their lawyers get a little aggressive. And juxtapose that 'cause while you're doing this... Yeah, there it is right there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whiskey and poop thing dog toy-
- JCJack Carr
Isn't that weird?
- JRJoe Rogan
... meet in a trademark clash. Oh boy. That's lawyers. That's just lawyers.
- JCJack Carr
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Got a bunch of people that probably work for the firm and-
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... they're like, "Oh, this is an opportunity to get on the board."
- JCJack Carr
Yeah, they get very aggressive. But you juxtapose that, so there's also Carr wine and, uh, so we happen to drink a lot of that in our household, just, y- you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
My dog has one of those.
- JCJack Carr
Really? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Marshall has one of those. He's got a fake Jack Daniel's. I... As a matter of fact, there might be a photo of him with it on his Instagram page. My dog's Instagram has like 750,000 followers.
- JCJack Carr
It's, it's blowing up. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) He's so handsome.
- JCJack Carr
That's awesome. That is awesome.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's adorable.
- 17:22 – 19:34
Writer’s strike meets streaming economics and AI: what happens to scripts and creativity
- JRJoe Rogan
So are you guys, uh... Is season two, it's on hold now because of the writer's strike?
- JCJack Carr
Well, working on the scripts. So it's, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you allowed to work on the scripts?
- JCJack Carr
No. I mean, I'm not part of the Guild. Yet, I would be after this one, 'cause I'm writing the finale. But, um, out of respect for what they have going on, I'm not... I'm pencils down on it too. So all the, all the writers that are part of the, the WGA, uh, pencils down on all their projects right now, and...
- JRJoe Rogan
So the Writer's Guild is only television and film? It has nothing to do with authors?
- JCJack Carr
Nothing to do with the publishing industry as far as, uh, the books and Simon & Schuster and all that stuff. And same thing with video games. I learned video games, 'cause there are writers for these video games.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
And, uh, so that's not part of it either. Um, so people can work on that stuff. But it's the, it's the television and film.
- JRJoe Rogan
And is the main dispute streaming? Is that what's going on?
- JCJack Carr
Streaming was the, has been a long time coming. Uh, so that was coming to a head anyway, and they probably shouldn't have negot- or not they should've. Um, it's been a long time in the works, just 'cause things have changed so much since the last writer's strike when it comes to streaming. And, uh, but then right when they, that comes to a head, AI hits the news this January-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- JCJack Carr
Of course, AI with ChatGPT and all that stuff, and people are putting it, as you were saying, um, people can just say, "Hey, write a show about X, Y, or Z," and pops out, not bad, do a little editing, off it goes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
And you don't, you don't have to pay a writer's room. So if you're an executive and you're beholden to, I guess, shareholders or whatever it is, um, maybe that's attractive. But not so attractive to those people who make their living, uh, coming up with these ideas in a writer's room and, uh, and then making all this money. Essentially the ground, the foundation of everything that we see in film and television-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
... happens in those writer's rooms and happens from these creators. Uh, and they don't really make... A lot of them, it's not huge money, uh, they're making anyway. But it's just, uh, how do you deal with streaming and how do we deal with AI? And we'll see.
- JRJoe Rogan
What is the solution to the AI problem?
- JCJack Carr
I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because we're, we're dealing with ChatGPT-4 now. And as ChatGPT five, six, and seven roll out, I would imagine they're gonna be able to write in the style of Jack Carr and write a perfect James Reese novel.
- JCJack Carr
Maybe eventually. Somebody did that, right when it came out. I think in January, I got a text and it's, "Check your email," is what I just screenshotted ChatGPT. I said, "Write the first novel, the first chapter in the next Jack Carr, James Reese Terminalis thing." And it was... It wasn't great, but in five years it probably will be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JCJack Carr
So I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
And even if it's not great, it maybe is the scaffolding for an actual writer-
- JCJack Carr
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to go in and put some real flare to it.
- JCJack Carr
Exactly.
- 19:34 – 45:55
Evolving James Reece: craft, structure changes, and respecting readers’ time
- JRJoe Rogan
This new book is really good.
- JCJack Carr
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm in, like I said, I think I'm on chapter 24 or 25.
- JCJack Carr
Nice.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, um, your writing, I liked how you shift, you switch your styles up a little bit.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, like there's like new elements to the way you do things.
- JCJack Carr
Thank you.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like I don't want to give anything away, but when Reese is, uh, uh...
- JCJack Carr
In that cage.
- JRJoe Rogan
... incarcerated.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. There's like, there's something to the way you're, you're doing it differently. It's interesting.
- JCJack Carr
'Cause you don't have the same novel every time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
Just you pick some up, somebody up, and he's a carbon cutout, and you drop him now in Europe, now he's getting revenge. Now he's in Africa getting revenge.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- JCJack Carr
Now he's in China get... So it's... You know, I wanted to avoid that, and that was, uh, right out of the gate. I was, uh, I was cognizant of that being something that could be an issue if you have a success, just kind of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JCJack Carr
... trying to copy that, and I never wanted to do that. I always want to evolve, just like anything else in life. Like in the SEAL teams, my, uh, my whole mission was to be a better operator and a better leader today than I was yesterday. Uh, personal front, be a better husband and father than I was yesterday. And for writing, be a better author for the next book than I was for this one. My, I want my next sentence to be better than the sentence before. So it's, um... So this one, James Reese is on a journey, and that's, that's like one of the one things that we have in common, just with everyone else on this planet, we're all on a journey. There's no... No matter your race, your religion, your socioeconomic background, you're on a journey and you don't know how much time you have on this planet. Uh, you get one ride, and so got to make it count. So people are trusting me with that time, which is something I take extremely seriously.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- JCJack Carr
So as much thought goes into any Instagram post or blog or question for a guest on my podcast or whatever it is as goes into any sentence in the novel, and I want to always improve on that craft every single time. So James Reese is on this journey. He's not the same guy he was in the first book. He's not the same guy he was in the third. And he's not the same guy he is in the sixth one. He's evolving, he's learning, uh, taking those past successes and failures and taking those lessons and applying them forward. Hopefully it's wisdom. Hopefully we're all doing that. Um, except for Bud Light and Miller Lite apparently.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JCJack Carr
But, uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
They'll learn too. They'll learn too.
- JCJack Carr
They need to read these novels perhaps, and, uh, figure out how it's done.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're only down 21%.
- JCJack Carr
No big deal.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JCJack Carr
(laughs) And that's more than a rounding error, I think.
- 45:55 – 48:15
Beirut 1983 nonfiction project: barracks bombing, policy consequences, and research depth
- JCJack Carr
I was... Just kidding. No, I wasn't. Oh, but I'm never... I'm not even working out anymore. It's like the, the, uh, the workouts, the nutrition, and the sleep have fallen to the bottom of the priority list with everything going on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because of work?
- JCJack Carr
Because, yeah, there's books to write and scripts to write. Well, not right now, but you reprioritize and focus on book seven, and then I have this nonfiction coming out, which has taken a lot more research than I anticipated, which, uh... The first one is, uh, on the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing. So it's, uh, one of... It's my first foray into the nonfiction side of the house, so working on that right now with an amazing guy, a historian, Pulitzer Prize finalist, James Scott, and there's really not the seminal work on that event yet. But as a kid, I remember, uh, just how impactful that was to me, seeing the news, Newsweek and Time and, uh, come across our dining room table and seeing those photos and, uh, knowing that I was gonna go in the military even at that young age, so I was always interested in insurgencies and counterinsurgencies and terrorism and special operations. Like, I was focused on that from a very-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- JCJack Carr
... early age.
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm not aware of that, that story.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah, so October of, uh, of 1983, um, there was a, uh, two actual car-... Uh, car bombs, one at the French paratroopers and one with a Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, and, uh, there were some, some lead-up events. Uh, first one in... Uh, or the first large one that really... people noticed, uh, the, uh, bombing of the American Embassy in Beirut in April 1983, and then there's some newly declassified documents from the Reagan administration that talk about what was going on behind the scenes and who was advocating to put Marines ashore, who wanted to keep them on, uh, amphib ships, so a little, uh, smaller than a c- aircraft carrier but take Marines around, uh, who wanted to keep them on those ships in a little safer area out on the, on the water in the Med. And, um, and then who made the deci-... Well, the president made the final decision, and I talked to Michael Reagan about it, and he said that decision haunted his father until the day he died, and, uh, so they put Marines ashore in Beirut, Lebanon, and then there was a, uh, a, a bomb that, that, uh, that took out those barracks, and it was the largest Marine loss of life since Iwo Jima in World War II. And, um, uh, so I'm doing this research right now, um-
- JRJoe Rogan
How many people died?
- JCJack Carr
There were o-... 300. We'll have to... We can look it up exactly so I don't mess, I don't mess it up by one, uh, or two, but, uh, it's so impactful and looms over US foreign policy to this day, and there's a... there's an ending to it, too, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
307.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah, there it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
241 US military personnel and, uh-
- JCJack Carr
58 French.
- JRJoe Rogan
... member of personnel, 58 French, six civilians, two suicide bombers.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.So-
- 48:15 – 51:32
Ukraine through Zeihan’s lens: demographics, NATO history, and inevitable invasion logic
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what is your take on what's going on in Ukraine? Ar- are you up on it and ...
- JCJack Carr
Up on it, I mean, I'm up on it in, uh, in-
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause I know you're writing about it.
- JCJack Carr
I'm writing about it. I'm writing about it. I wrote about it in the second novel, in, uh, in, um, in True Believer. And I got that from someone who's also been on this podcast, Peter Zeihan wrote a book back in, uh, uh, 2014. And so, I used that. I read that on my flight to Mozambique where I was doing research for the second novel, even though I didn't have a deal for the first novel yet, hadn't even turned that in, but I always knew I was gonna write two. Um, 'cause John Grisham, he wrote his first book, A Time to Kill, and couldn't give that book away. And then he writes The Firm, and that one takes off. Tom Cruise is in the movie. Then they republish A Time to Kill, and Matthew McConaughey stars in that one. And we've had a John Grisham novel every year.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JCJack Carr
So, I thought back to that and thought, "I'll at least write two, and if both of them don't take off, then I'll maybe reevaluate my choices." So, uh, so I knew I was always gonna write, write two. But on the flight over there, I read, uh, his book, Accidental Superpower, and, uh, that one very clearly predicts a Russian invasion of Ukraine by the year 2022. And that was back in 2014 he wrote that. So there were signs.
- JRJoe Rogan
Peter Zeihan, was that on the ball?
- JCJack Carr
To the year.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JCJack Carr
To the exact year, 'cause-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's a weirdly smart guy.
- JCJack Carr
He, he's amazing. Yeah, he's been on my podcast and, uh, he's been on your podcast, and I've read all his books, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's so sure of what he's saying, too, that's what's uncomfortable.
- JCJack Carr
He's (laughs) ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, how do you-
- JCJack Carr
He's very ...
- JRJoe Rogan
You're, you're not even hedging your bets.
- JCJack Carr
No. No, and he's not, he doesn't hedge the bets at all, and, but he, but he also ... That's his thing. That is 100% his area of expertise and study. He lives it. He breathes it. It's not something that he just dabbles in.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JCJack Carr
So, read that book. Amazing, amazing book, so I incorporated that into my, into my second novel. But now, Russia actually did invade Ukraine, so now when we work on these scripts for the second season of The Terminal List, well, we have to figure that out. It's gonna change, obviously, because they actually invaded instead of, like in the book, um, the, the hero, of course, wins the day. But, um, but when he talks about that and talks about population decline, very steep population decline in Russia and gives the reasons behind it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JCJack Carr
... and, uh, talks about the ethnic Russian population in Ukraine being the largest outside of Russia, and he looked at how long you can field an army, uh, a- before you can't field that army anymore, and 2022 was that year.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JCJack Carr
So, in order to field the army at current levels, they had to invade by that time. And we really, I mean, this is going back to, to, uh, learning lessons from the past and applying them going forward as wisdom, because we really made that invasion inevitable by some of our decisions at the end of the Cold War in the early '90s, all the way through the '90s, and really set things up to, uh, to make that invasion a, uh, an inevitability, unfortunately.
- JRJoe Rogan
NATO expansion.
- JCJack Carr
NATO expansion, promises, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
... it's just ... So y- so I like to look at things through the enemy's eyes, which I did in The Devil's Hand, my fourth book, but I think it's important to look at things through the enemy's eyes because it allows you to then make decisions taking that into account. And so, with Russia certainly knowing what our response would be to an invasion of Ukraine, that's what I incorporated into this one.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hm.
- JCJack Carr
So if you knew what we would do if they invaded Ukraine, what should you do now, as Russia, to set yourself up? Um, success is the wrong word, but, uh, but financially, so with gas and oil sales and contracts and futures with India and with China. So I work all that into this book, so it was quite, uh, it was quite the education.
- 51:32 – 52:52
Nord Stream and “common sense” in geopolitics: accountability deficits and fiction as catharsis
- JRJoe Rogan
What did you think about the blowing up of the pipeline?
- JCJack Carr
Oh, my goodness. There's a, uh ... Yeah, well, Seymour Hersh that has a few, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
... articles out there on Substack.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
Amazing. People should read those before they just retweet something. Um, but he is s- I mean, he is detailed in those accounts of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
... uh, where people are, what, what military exercises are going on that would cover, a cover for action we call it, uh, to allow, uh, the US to go in and blow up those pipelines. Um, so it's, it's very into ... Now, it's, it's, I think fairly established that, uh, what he writes in there is actually true. Uh, so it's, uh, it's incredible, so people should go read that for sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's a video of Biden saying that they were gonna put a stop to the Nord Stream pipeline-
- JCJack Carr
Uh-huh, and there was an assistant secretary of state-
- JRJoe Rogan
... which is just crazy to this day.
- JCJack Carr
... I think he was saying s- uh, similar things out there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
And it's ... Yeah. So when we go back and look at these things and, uh, don't apply any political bias to it and just apply common sense, that's the other thing we don't do. And, uh, it's, uh, Carl von Clausewitz who wrote On War said the most important attribute of a battlefield leader is common sense. George Marshall, World War II, said the same thing, and, uh, we neglect to apply common sense to a lot of these things, whether it's as a populist or our, our elected officials or, uh, military leaders. So, there's a lack of common sense in the end and a stark, uh, lack of accountability as well. So it's very therapeutic for me to write some of these novels 'cause I get to hold people accountable in a fictional sense that you couldn't do in real life.
- 52:52 – 59:28
Military-industrial complex origins: 1947 reorganization, Vietnam-to-Afghanistan failures, and “failing up”
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it a lack of common sense or is it a willingness to ignore consequences because of the financial interest or the, the political interest in what you're trying to accomplish?
- JCJack Carr
Well, that's a huge part of it, and we can see it change in 1947. So when the defense establishment and the intelligence, uh, agencies were all reorganized in 1947 when we changed the, uh, Department of War to the Department of Defense, uh, it became an industry. And, uh, it stopped being a profession of arms and started becoming a career of arms for senior level, uh, officers in particular. And at the same time, we started seeing a lack of accountability because up to that point, we can go back to the Civil War and see Lincoln go through general after general after general until he got to Grant. And same thing in World War II, George Marshall went through general after general after general, admiral after admiral after admiral, until he got to those names that we all know today who led us to victory in World War II. And then for some reason ... And, and that means that there were people in those positions before who didn't measure up, so George Marshall would give them a chance and maybe a second one but not a third, and then they'd put somebody in place regardless, regardless of rank essentially. Um, he, he would promote people into the rank they needed to be for those positions if they showed promise, and, uh, that's how we got to these leaders that we all know the last names of. And we lost that after World War II, particularly in Vietnam. Now we start seeing people not held accountable for mistakes. We certainly see it with Afghanistan. 20 years ...... they had to prepare for this eventuality, 20 years. And then the best they can do is what we saw in August of 2021. And someone who has no touch points with the military, never read a book on military history, strategy, tactics, doesn't know anyone in the military, maybe even never seen a military film can apply common sense to that situation and say, "Look, wait, it looks like Bagram here would be the tactically advantageous position," which it was. Why are we putting our junior level enlisted people at this gate, at this, essentially a public airport in Kabul, putting them in a tactically disadvantageous position to get out of there after we had 20 years to prepare to leave? And once again, no one held accountable. And there's a great book. It's, uh, called The Afghanistan Papers by Craig Whitlock, and after two Freedom of Information Act lawsuits by the Washington Post, they got access to these classified histories of the war. And so they took these generals and admirals coming back and they interviewed them, and they thought these interviews were gonna stay classified, and so he... what Craig Whitlock does once he got access to this is he juxtaposes what they said in private that they thought was gonna stay classified to what they said in front of Congress, and they're 180 out from each other.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JCJack Carr
And once again, no one held accountable. All those guys make rank, they fail up, and then sit on boards of defense industry companies going forward. And, yeah, that we saw that change, 1947 onward, so...
- JRJoe Rogan
You cover some of these problems in your books.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, but how frustrating is it for you and how infurying- infuriating is it as a man who's a veteran, who's served, who's been deployed overseas, who's been in these conflicts to- to see this happening and to see no accountability and to see these poor choices being made over and over again that put veterans' lives at risk, put our lives at risk, and put the entire world in this state...
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... right now where we're- we're genuinely concerned about nuclear war.
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which we haven't been since the '80s.
- JCJack Carr
Right, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The fall of the Soviet Union was this great moment in history where we were like, "Oh, Jesus, we're done."
- JCJack Carr
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Oh, my God, Soviet Union's now Russia." It's like, it's they're- they- they have elected leaders. Everything's gonna be great, and...
- JCJack Carr
Yeah. Yeah, no, it's tough because you lose friends over there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
People lose arms, legs, uh, in wheelchairs. They sacrifice so much and they're trusting those senior level leaders to make good decisions, politicians and military leaders. And then they see what happens over there, and so it's very natural to ask that question, "Was it all- was it all worth it? What were we doing over there for all these years, for 20 years?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
Um, so it's very natural to ask that question, and, you know, for- for my own sanity, I just go back to taking those lessons learned and applying them going forward in a way that honors the sacrifice of those who- who did lose their lives, who didn't come home or who came home changed forever because of post-traumatic stress or traumatic brain injury, missing arms and legs. And, um, my hope, my... and it's- I hate to say hope, is that, uh, we can take those lessons and apply them to the next generation so they don't have to learn those same lessons in blood. But I guess I'm not hopeful because, uh, we have shown time and time again that we, uh, have a very difficult time doing that for some reason, and I don't know why that is, but, uh, it's extremely disheartening.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is.
- JCJack Carr
And it also sets a, it also sets a, uh, sets up that next generation for failure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
'Cause we have these people coming up the ranks and they see these, uh, these generals sit in front of Congress, say certain things. You can go back to every single testimony from these guys and they all say, they all say pretty much the same thing, "We're making progress. We just need more money. We need more time." Um, that, there's-
- JRJoe Rogan
And privately, what were they saying?
- JCJack Carr
They were saying that this is a disaster. Yeah. And you can go back and look at these.
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- JCJack Carr
Then- then Craig Whitlock spells it all out. He has the transcripts in there. And there's one, uh, and I forget who it is right now in exact time, but it's around the 2009, 2010 timeframe where there's one senior level official who's in charge of Afghanistan. He doesn't even say anything bad. He's just kind of like, "You know, it's not going as great as we, uh, may have led you to believe." And then a few months later, he was quietly moved aside and somebody else was put in.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- JCJack Carr
So that tells everybody else coming up behind them-
- 59:28 – 1:12:40
Information age paradox: social media weaponization, parenting in the TikTok era, and “how am I being manipulated?”
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, we have access to history instantaneously in a way that's never existed before and we seem...... to be learning less.
- JCJack Carr
I know, it's one of those-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's weird.
- JCJack Carr
... dichotomies that is, uh, is very odd, and we all thought when that, when you could carry the internet around in your pocket with that first iPhone.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
I mean, you thought, "Oh, when we have a discussion and someone says, 'No, it's this,' or, 'No, it's this,' guess what? We don't have to argue about it. We can look it up right here."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
"And it's gonna be great because we can solve all these arguments immediately." And what did it do? Well, it just snowballed into this thing where it divides us even further, rather than someone saying-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
... "Oh, look. Oh, I was wrong. Oh, yeah, it says it right here. Ah." No. It just divides us even further, and of course, the advent of social media. It's a weap- it's a tool, and any tool can be used for, for productive purposes or as a weapon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
And we have weaponized social media for sure to divide, and who benefits? Well, politicians that need to galvanize bases, of course, and the social media companies themselves who have lobbyists in Washington, uh, who pay a lot of money to these politicians, and it's a, it's a whole ecosystem. And so being aware of it I think is the first step. So for our kids, I talk about it with them and, uh, I always ask the question, "How am I being manipulated here?" That- which is kind of a cynical way to look at things, but you kind of have to today. And then with the advent of AI, that's a whole nother, another side of it. Like, we... Figuring out what is truth and what is not and what's been made up and what podcast is real and what's not.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
It's, uh, it's a crazy situation, but I want the kids to know that even if they're following somebody on social media, like a person, that's an advertisement for that person and their life. And you can see time and time again, beautiful families out there, and they're showing, "Here we are in Aruba," or whatever, and, "Here we are with our Easter photo together." And then the next week there's their divorce and there's abuse and there's all this stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JCJack Carr
And it's like, "What? This whole thing was all a farce."
- JRJoe Rogan
Isn't that crazy?
Episode duration: 2:37:22
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Transcript of episode YeX2RUPXsaM
