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Joe Rogan Experience #2020 - Python Cowboy

Mike "Python Cowboy" Kimmel is a licensed wildlife trapper of invasive and dangerous species, contracted python hunter, and owner of Martin County Trapping and Wildlife Rescue. www.pythoncowboy.com

Joe RoganhostMike "Python Cowboy" Kimmelguest
Jun 27, 20241h 54mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:55

    Florida’s python invasion: how bad is it really?

    1. NA

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music) Yeehaw.

    4. MK

      Am I wearing these?

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. MK

      Okay.

    7. JR

      Wear 'em. You feel weird?

    8. MK

      No, I'm just ...

    9. JR

      Have you done a podcast before?

    10. MK

      I have. Uh, not quite to this level, I don't think, but ...

    11. JR

      Uh, how did you get ... first of all, how bad is the python and invasive species situation in Florida?

    12. MK

      It, it is bad. It's definitely bad. You know, you, you have these TV shows that make especially the python thing seem like it's a lot worse than it is. Um, you know, or a lot easier than it is, I should say. It's a bad situation. We have our native wildlife being wiped out. But it's not like you're just gonna go out there and you're tripping over pythons, you know? It, it's not the case. Uh, I search very, very hard to find them.

    13. JR

      There was an estimate of 500,000 pythons in the Everglades.

    14. MK

      C- could be more. Um, I personally think there's less.

    15. JR

      Really?

    16. MK

      Uh, I do, I do. We don't really know what's out there. Uh, the estimates have been 100,000 all the way up to 3,000,000.

    17. JR

      Mm.

    18. MK

      And-

    19. JR

      How do they estimate?

    20. MK

      That's the thing. They're just going off of captures, really, and the decline of native wildlife, which there's other factors at play when it comes to the decline of our native wildlife. Obviously, pythons are eating up our native wildlife in the Everglades without a doubt. Uh, there is a lot of evidence of that. But our Everglades is a struggling place as it is right now between the water management, the overpopulation of our state. We have a growing panther population that we're looking like we're having trouble sustaining. And, um, all-

  2. 1:55 – 5:57

    Florida panthers: population mystery, attacks, and a terrifying tent encounter

    1. JR

      Sustaining? How so?

    2. MK

      Uh, well, we see a lot of depredation in Collier and Henry County, um, from-

    3. JR

      And when you mean depredation, you mean attacking wildlife?

    4. MK

      Uh, a- attacking not so much wildlife, but p-

    5. JR

      Uh, excuse me. Um-

    6. MK

      ... pets and livestock.

    7. JR

      Livestock.

    8. MK

      Yes, sir.

    9. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MK

      Um, a- and we just see that there's more panthers than we're accounting for, uh, just from, uh, vehicular deaths.

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MK

      So if, if the current panther numbers were accurate, uh, f- over 30% of the panther population dies every year just from motor vehicles. And, you know, that, that doesn't really seem right if y- if you think about that. There's no way a third of the population dies every year from motor vehicles and is continuing to grow and they're just not that stupid, you know what I mean?

    13. JR

      So i- it's s- sort of an uncalculated, they haven't calculated it correctly, but you think there's more of them?

    14. MK

      Well-

    15. JR

      There's quite a lot of sightings, right?

    16. MK

      The, um ... so the sightings are rare, but that's just because it's a very elusive animal, um, and they're out in the middle of the Everglades.

    17. JR

      I've seen, like, more photos of them th-

    18. MK

      Oh, uh-

    19. JR

      ... over the last few years-

    20. MK

      We, we-

    21. JR

      ... than I've ever seen before.

    22. MK

      ... we've had attacks. Um-

    23. JR

      Oh, really?

    24. MK

      Oh, yeah. We, we've had, um, I believe a couple, uh, in the past f- few years each year, um, where people are out turkey hunting or, or, you know-

    25. JR

      Mm.

    26. MK

      ... sitting on the ground calling for a turkey, calling for a coyote, something like that, and a bob- or a coyote c- or I'm sorry, a panther comes in and I think some guy got mauled on his face or something like that, you know? It's pretty wild. Of course the animal realizes what's happening and gets outta there.

    27. JR

      But he still gets attacked.

    28. MK

      But he still gets attacked. Me personally, um, just from python hunting down there over the years, I've seen a dozen or more of 'em. Um, I've been sleeping in my tent in the middle of the night out in the Everglades and I'm woken up by a panther growling right next to my head outside my tent-

    29. JR

      (sighs)

    30. MK

      ... circling my tent for about 15 minutes.

  3. 5:57 – 6:56

    Cougar genetics and Florida’s history of “fixes” that backfire

    1. MK

      And that's it. The, the mountain lions are, uh, uh, different m- you know, they're not a different species or breed, but they're different structu- you know, physically-

    2. JR

      Structurally.

    3. MK

      ... than our Florida panther, but not anymore.

    4. JR

      Really?

    5. MK

      So the, the (laughs) our state government in all their wisdom took Texas cougars, brought them down to Florida, and interbred them with the last few remaining Florida panthers we have.

    6. JR

      Oh, no.

    7. MK

      So they're no longer a Florida panther. They're now Texas cougars and they are bigger, they are more aggressive.... and, you know, we're- we're dealing with it, for sure.

    8. JR

      What a stupid move.

    9. MK

      Yup. We've seen that, uh, it's the cane toads.

    10. JR

      Yeah.

    11. MK

      Cane toads in the sh- sugar cane fields, uh, the bufu toads that we're dealing with now, same thing. They brought them in to control insects in the, in the fields, and they winded up eating everything but the insects, basically, and now they're a big problem. Uh, if you look at the-

  4. 6:56 – 11:10

    Cane toads, ‘toad venom,’ and the strange world of people (and dogs) getting high

    1. JR

      Aren't those the kind of toads that eat rats?

    2. MK

      Yeah, they're- they're, um, they're venomous, actually. They're- they're toxic. Uh, they're- they produce a- a toxin from them, and some people try to get high...

    3. JR

      Oh, those are the guys-

    4. MK

      ... from 'em, and yeah.

    5. JR

      Those are the people that, like, they cut themselves and put the toxin on their arm, I think?

    6. MK

      Yes, sir. Or they'll smoke the skin or smoke the dry toxin.

    7. JR

      Really?

    8. MK

      Yeah. I don't know how- how effective it is, but, uh-

    9. JR

      What is the- what is bufo? What is the actual chemical compound? It's like there's a word, like bufonamine or something.

    10. MK

      I wanna say one- one of the toads, it's similar to DMT.

    11. JR

      Okay, that's 5-methoxydimethyltryptamine. That comes from some toads. Is that the bufo toad, though?

    12. NA

      Bufagin or something.

    13. JR

      Here it goes. Uh, buf- bufagin is a toxic steroid obtained from the toad's milk, the poisonous secretion of the skin gland in the back of the neck of a large toad. Um...

    14. MK

      Yeah, the cane toad.

    15. JR

      ... le, le, le, le, le. Cane toad. The toad produces this secretion when it is injured, scared, or provoked. And what does the toxin do? Why do people wanna... That's what... Oh, that's like a real poison...

    16. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JR

      ... that gives you, like, some crazy visions or something. But that's not... I don't think... That's not the same one as the one that produces, uh, dimethyltryptamine.

    18. MK

      Yeah, it- it- it may not be. It's definitely not some, uh, toad, I would suggest... (laughs)

    19. JR

      Just-

    20. MK

      Trying to get high off.

    21. JR

      ... fine.

    22. MK

      I think you'd get more sick than anything.

    23. JR

      What about just Google, uh, getting high off cane toads? Yeah. Toad venom addiction and abuse.

    24. MK

      Oh, my gosh.

    25. JR

      (laughs)

    26. MK

      Typically cane...

    27. JR

      People have fucking toad venom addictions. Licking toads, particularly cane... Oh, you can lick 'em.

    28. MK

      Oh, lord.

    29. JR

      Can be dangerous, however. It may cause muscle weakness, rapid heart rate, and vomiting.

    30. MK

      Well, it-

  5. 11:10 – 23:02

    The 17'7" python that nearly killed him: bite, blood loss, and finishing the capture

    1. JR

      How did you get involved in honey pythons? First of all, could you bring that python head up?

    2. MK

      Yeah.

    3. JR

      Let me see that python head. I need to see 'cause I-

    4. MK

      So- so, this is-

    5. JR

      ... purposely didn't look.

    6. MK

      This is actually the one that bit me that...

    7. JR

      Oh, god.

    8. MK

      I almost bled out in the middle of the Everglades. Caught by myself in the middle of the Everglades.

    9. JR

      Oh, my god, dude.

    10. MK

      And-

    11. JR

      That- that bit you?

    12. MK

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. JR

      Oh, man.

    14. MK

      And this snake, 17 foot 7 inches...

    15. JR

      (gasps)

    16. MK

      135 pounds. And that's no eggs inside of it, no meal inside of it. That's solid snake muscle. And at the time, that's about what I weighed. So, it was a fair Everglades battle royale.

    17. JR

      Oh, my god. Can I see it?

    18. MK

      Yeah, absolutely.

    19. JR

      Now, tell me the scenario. What happened?

    20. MK

      So, um, I was...

    21. JR

      The mouth on this thing, Jake.

    22. MK

      Yeah, look at all those teeth.

    23. JR

      Look at that. It's insane.

    24. MK

      Yup. And- and the head actually has shrunk substantially from the freeze-drying process. Uh, AllCritters freeze-dried that for me, and, uh, you know, it takes all the moisture out of it...

    25. JR

      Right.

    26. MK

      And really- really shrinks down. Um, so I was out hunting the Everglades. Um, I was actually out in my 14-foot Jon boat, um, by myself, and I was checking, uh, spoil islands out there. These islands were dug maybe 100 years ago or more, um, when they dug the canal. They were made 100 years ago when they were digging the canal. And they've been up there...... you know, uh, gain and vegetation, getting real nasty, and a lot of these critters come up on them to breed, to feed, and to nest. And, um, I was out there looking for, you know, a, a python like I normally do, and I came across her. Um, I knew immediately when I saw her that she was very large, possibly the largest python I've captured. And I could only see the, um, the back half of her, maybe, like, the back third of her, but I could tell she was a monster. My heart is pounding. Uh, I'd be lying to you if I said it wasn't. But, you know, my main fear in a situation like that is not that this snake's gonna kill me. I'm confident in how to handle these animals, uh, confident in, in my ability. But I'm worried this thing is gonna get the best of me, overpower me, and possibly I lose it. Um, it gets away into the swamp to eat more of our native wildlife. Coming across an animal like this, even with the situation we're in in the Everglades, is still a once-in-a-lifetime, you know, opportunity. It really is. Uh, I've caught a number of them, but I, I spend a lot of time out there. So, I'm getting ready to capture this, this snake, building myself up to it. Uh, the safest way to go about it is to find the head, grab the head with both my hands, and keep her from coiling on me, wrapping around me. Uh, I can't find her head. Her head's buried in vegetation, buried in, in the maiden cane. I just can't see it, and she's working her way slowly off the island. So, I know I gotta quickly do something. I'm afraid if I, if I get closer to her head I'm gonna spook her and she's gonna try to start moving away. I grab onto her tail and this is kind of a bad situation to be in, especially with all the thick vegetation. These snakes can easily overpower you and will actually drag you out into the swamp, y- there's just no stopping it. It, it intertwines in all the weeds and just drags you. (exhales) So, I know grabbing this thing, my goal is to piss it off and get it to start striking at me where I can see that head and grab ahold of that head.

    27. JR

      (laughs)

    28. MK

      Otherwise, this thing's, this thing's gone.

    29. JR

      (exhales) Oh.

    30. MK

      So, I get ahold of it and it starts dragging me. It's pulling me off the island. I-

  6. 23:02 – 24:51

    How Mike became ‘Python Cowboy’: rescuing alligators and going viral

    1. MK

      W- what I think it is more than anything, and, you know, I h- hate to kinda take away from myself, but it's, it's what we're taught as kids, you know? We're taught to be fearful of snakes, that they're this evil, dangerous thing. And I can't tell you... I, I think that's why I've been so successful on social media, is these people, they just freak out watching these snakes, you know? They can't believe it, and it's... They're not really that crazy. They're really not.

    2. JR

      (laughs) I think you're just used to them. I think they're really fucking crazy. (laughs)

    3. MK

      (laughs)

    4. JR

      There's a reason why they're only in one state like this. Look at the size of that thing, man.

    5. MK

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      That thing's enormous. And they eat alligators.

    7. MK

      Oh, yeah. I've-

    8. JR

      I think, bro, I think they would eat you.

    9. MK

      I, I've rescued-

    10. JR

      I really do.

    11. MK

      ... three alligators from pythons.

    12. JR

      Wow.

    13. MK

      That's actually how I started my social media, is I, um, made the news. Went kinda viral for rescuing an alligator from a python. I had a guy out on a guided hunt with me. He, uh, recorded it, videotaped it, and it, you know, made the news, and, uh, a local clothing brand, Flo Grown, in Florida, made my Instagram, made my social media and was like, "Dude, you gotta start using it. You know, we'll send you clothes," and that's-

    14. JR

      Wow.

    15. MK

      ... really how it all got started.

    16. JR

      That's crazy. That's how it got started. That's amazing. Look at these things.

    17. MK

      And I actually... This was the smallest of the three I've rescued. Um, it was the third one that we finally got on video, 'cause I, I never, I never used to really record anything.

    18. JR

      Imagine how fucking confused alligators must be, like, "I thought we were at the top. I... We were at the top forever."

    19. MK

      Yeah. Oh, yeah.

    20. JR

      "What happened?"

    21. MK

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      "What the fuck is going on?"

    23. MK

      "2023, times are changing."

  7. 24:51 – 29:36

    Where did all the pythons come from? Pet releases vs. intentional dumping theories

    1. JR

      So, the source of all this, I thought initially that it was people releasing pets, which it was.

    2. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JR

      But it was also, there was some sort of, like, a python research center, and it got damaged?

    4. MK

      (laughs) So, (sighs) there's a lot of speculation with that. To me, that python research center, um, is kind of more of, like, an urban myth.

    5. JR

      Oh, really?

    6. MK

      Yep. Um, there's never been a facility named. Uh, there's ... this place that they keep speaking of, people keep mentioning, w- we don't know what it is. W- you know, no one's ever been like, "Oh, it was this facility." There's, it's just not, not a thing.

    7. JR

      Interesting.

    8. MK

      And people, yep, people were releasing pets that got too big. Um, they were escaping as well. But to me, that's not enough to be where we're at today.

    9. JR

      Really?

    10. MK

      It, it's just not enough. Why don't we have anacondas all over? Why don't we have, uh ... Well, I mean, we do have Nile monitors, but why don't we have Nile monitors everywhere? Why don't we have caiman everywhere? We have some caiman, but nothing like the python. To me, it was ... And, you know, I do have some things that are leading me to believe this. I'm not just pulling this out of my butt. But, you know, this is definitely, um, an opinion, I would say. Uh, I believe that they were intentionally released by somebody or multiple people, um, probably reptile breeders, i- in a hope that they could stop importing pythons from overseas as pets and start farming them in state and collecting them out of the Everglades, uh, reproducing them, getting big breeders out of the Everglades, using them, and then cutting out that essential mid- middleman.

    11. JR

      Whoa.

    12. MK

      Um, and, you know-

    13. JR

      Really?

    14. MK

      ... there's definitely been a lot of things that kind of confirm this to me. Uh, and I'm not the only one that believes this either. Um, but I definitely don't want to get into, like, necessarily mentioning names or anything like that.

    15. JR

      Yeah, we don't have to mention names.

    16. MK

      But, um ...

    17. JR

      So, what ... But what gave you this ... Like, what evidence is there of this, or what?

    18. MK

      Well, um, just from what we've seen with other, other species. For something to take hold like this and become so prevalent, it needs to be intentional. There needs to be thousands to be released at a time. And, um-

    19. JR

      Really?

    20. MK

      During the height of the Burmese, it was the most popular pet, uh, being imported into Florida. During the height of it, you would have 1,000 come in in a week in a crate and they would, you know, sell them all over the country. And, um, I- I think it was the kind of thing where it's like, "Well, we can ... Let's dump one of these crates out there and, and see, see what happens and see if we can start farming them out there." These people, um, I've even just hear how they talk about the python problem in Florida, and it's, uh, it's ... I don't know, there's, there's definitely something to it, and just-

    21. JR

      How do they talk about it?

    22. MK

      Kinda defending it, almost, you know, like, uh, "Oh, leave the pythons alone," and-

    23. JR

      What?

    24. MK

      (laughs) Yes.

    25. JR

      Who does that?

    26. MK

      Uh, different p- different, uh, old-school breeders that I would, the diff- old reptile importers.

    27. JR

      Oh.

    28. MK

      Like the, the kind of, some of the founding fathers of, of it, the, uh, exotic pet trade in Florida.

    29. JR

      Dude, I think you just uncovered a giant conspiracy.

    30. MK

      Yeah, well, it is. It is, for sure.

  8. 29:36 – 33:40

    Making exotics illegal can worsen invasions: iguanas/tegus, enforcement, and dumping

    1. MK

      And it- it's become, you know, a, a business. Uh, and, you know, there's, there's right and wrong ways to go about things. Um, you know, by no way am I knocking the reptile trade or anything like that. Um, as a kid, I grew up, uh, with 20 different reptiles as pets and, um, breeding them and selling them as pets. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a, there's a right and wrong way with anything, like owning a gun or, or anything else. Um, you know, it's, we shouldn't necessarily make these animals illegal, because what we've seen when ... Just recently, they've made iguanas and tegus illegal in Florida to own as pets, and we're seeing people dump their pets because FWC has been going around. And they said they wouldn't, but they have been. They've been going around and actually euthanizing people's pets.

    2. JR

      Oh.

    3. MK

      And to someone that, you know, this iguana or this python even or anything, to a lot of people, it's, it's like a dog. It's like someone killing your dog. It, it really is. And, um, they would much rather turn it loose and give it the chance to survive than to have it euthanized.

    4. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. MK

      And then what you're left with is irresponsible pet owners. You're, you're left with people that are breaking the law to own these animals.... probably don't have proper enclosures, probably don't take good care of them, and probably will just release them when they're done with them. So you take all of the good away and you're left with the bad, when instead, we should put popu- pop, uh, regulations in, in place, proper regulations, where people then are forced to house these animals correctly. Um, and the problem is no longer pet iguanas or pet pythons, it's wild breeding animals. And when they made these, um, iguanas illegal just this past year, they've now stopped all of that free management we had of people coming from all over the country, coming to Florida, catching these iguanas, catching these tegus, taking them out of the state and selling them where they can't survive anyway 'cause it's too cold. Um, and it was, it was helping us. It was helping control these populations. Now all of that is gone. Um, y- you're not allowed to do that anymore. And this year in particular, I'm seeing more baby iguanas than I ever have in my entire life. It's, it's out of control.

    6. JR

      So that was the primary way that they were regulating, or that they were controlling the population size, was people coming in and grabbing them?

    7. MK

      No, that's not the primary way, but that was a huge way. Um, that was-

    8. JR

      What percentage do you think it was?

    9. MK

      That was on top of what myself and, and other, uh, people in the state are doing. Um, that was for, especially for the juveniles and baby iguanas, that's 90, 90%.

    10. JR

      Whoa.

    11. MK

      Um, you know, that, that's what they're after. They go out there, they trap them. Uh, I, I'm, it may even be, you know, bigger than I'm thinking. Uh, the, a lot of people were making livings off coming down here, catching them, taking them out of state.

    12. JR

      And out of state they can't survive?

    13. MK

      No, it's too cold. Uh, y- you see it just with, you don't have these animals surviving in North Florida.

    14. JR

      Really?

    15. MK

      It gets, it gets too cold.

    16. JR

      Interesting.

    17. MK

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      That's crazy then. So it's like te- almost like a perfect scenario, because they can't be invasive. They can't survive.

    19. MK

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and that's the thing, you know. We all fought against this when they were trying to get these, these new laws passed, because at face value it seems like, oh yeah, make them illegal, it, it'll help.

    20. JR

      Right.

    21. MK

      But, um, you know, when you talk to the experts and the people that really know, it's, it's counterproductive.

    22. JR

      And at this point there's so many iguanas in Florida that the idea of eradicating them-

    23. MK

      Uh, no. We're never getting, we're never getting rid of the pythons, we're never getting rid of the iguanas. They're here to stay, but management is absolutely essential.

  9. 33:40 – 35:54

    Why python management is so hard: access restrictions and national park rules

    1. JR

      Is it possible to manage the pythons in the Everglades?

    2. MK

      Yes. It, it is. Um, you know, how effectively it is remain to be seen. Uh, I feel right now we're losing, we're losing that battle. But that's because the state really ties our hands. Um, for the general public, it's almost impossible for them to go out and hunt these pythons. They just don't have the access. Um, you know, they're not getting compensated for it, nothing like that. A lot of these areas where the pythons are, you're not legally allowed to go off the trail in a vehicle, and that's the only way you can get around. Uh-

    3. JR

      So you have to stay on trail?

    4. MK

      Y- you have to stay on levies, roadways, um, in-

    5. JR

      Is there an extensive trail system or is it mostly just wild?

    6. MK

      No, it's mostly just wild. And, and here's an- another thing which you're gonna get a kick out of. In the national park itself, you are not allowed to remove invasive species. If you come across a 20-foot python eating a deer, you are not allowed to do anything because it's inside the national park and everything inside the national park is protected, even the invasive wildlife.

    7. JR

      Oh, wow.

    8. MK

      Now they do allow state contractors to go in the national park and remove these pythons, but that's not nearly enough. We need the general public involved. We have a lot of people wanting to help. And inside the national park, even a state contractor is not allowed to get off the road in any sort of vehicle, airboat, anything. And that's the only way you can get around. The Everglades is 1.5 million acres of impenetrable swamp. You know, half of it's underwater, sawgrass that'll slige y- slice you open, twice as tall as you, and too thick to even get through. So you would need an airboat, you would need a swamp buggy, and, uh, none of this is allowed. And we really saw kind of the, the, the, um, tides of, of battle kind of change, I guess you would say, when it became a national park. So we had

  10. 35:54 – 46:52

    Everglades history and politics: Gladesmen removed, resource extraction, and water mismanagement

    1. MK

      python sightings in the Everglades in the '60s. They were seeing these snakes and nothing was done. What was actually done was the Florida gladesman, who historically lived and survived off the Everglades and was, um, a keeper of the Everglades, was kicked out of the Everglades when it was made a national park. Um, it's another thing, it's a rabbit hole I don't necessarily-

    2. JR

      How many of them-

    3. MK

      ... want to go down to.

    4. JR

      How many of those guys were kicked out?

    5. MK

      It, it... Hundreds, maybe thousands. It's, uh, hard, hard to say. Um-

    6. JR

      So it was all the folks that were living in there?

    7. MK

      Yeah, so they actually had camps out there. Uh, they built camps and they'd live out there. Some would go out there recreation. A lot of them would live out there, make their living out there, gator hunters, commercial fishers, um, moonshiners, drug smugglers, all kind of stuff. And, um, you know, a lot of these camps was actually, especially when you're getting more into the pythons starting to take over when they were really trying to get everyone out, which that's not the reason they were trying to get everyone out, was 'cause of the pythons. Um, it was 'cause they were trying to turn it into national park and they felt like these people shouldn't be in there. They were burning down camps and there's actually stories of-... burning down camps with Gladesmen inside, and all kind of shady stuff going on. Um, you know, that's maybe a topic for another time, but-

    8. NA

      How long- how long did it take to move these people out of the forest?

    9. MK

      So, the national park, I believe, was started in, like, '47. It was actually u- finalized in sometime in the '60s, maybe the late '60s. And then, um, from there, I want to say the whole exodus, kicking everybody out, probably 20 years or so.

    10. NA

      Wow.

    11. MK

      Um, 15, 20 years. An- and it's still kind of a- a raw spot for a lot of us. Um, a lot of us don't like the Park Service because of everything that happened. And, uh, you know, we- we feel that the Everglades should be, uh, you know, open to the people to enjoy it. And, um, you know, enjoyed in- in the right way, of course. But we- we really seen that when the Gladesmen, the eyes, and the ears, and the keepers of the Everglades was removed from the Everglades and our access was limited, the pythons took over. Um, the water quality went down. We're seeing fracking in our Everglades. We're seeing, um, oil drilling, all kind of stuff that, um, you know, w- we feel the Everglades should be represented and preserved in a better way.

    12. NA

      Do you think that that was one of the reasons why they wanted to get everybody out, so they could extract the resources?

    13. MK

      I think there was definitely some, um, you know, ulterior motives, for sure. Uh, I work closely with a lot of these state departments, you know, so I'm not trying to ruffle too many feathers. But- but yeah, there are, you know, there's- there's definitely some shady stuff going on in the Everglades. Why- why are we not allowed to enjoy our Everglades, but, you know, we're allowed to take from her natural resources and, um, diminish her? Uh, the- the government is.

    14. NA

      And not manage the invasive species at all.

    15. MK

      And not manage the invasive species properly, and not manage the water properly. Our- our Everglades is dying, is dying because of- of their water- water quality issues. And our state-

    16. NA

      What is the source of the water quality issues?

    17. MK

      Um, it's a very complicated issue. Um, and it's not one that I'm extremely, um, versed on, I would say. I mean, I definitely know about it, but you know, I don't want to say the wrong things. Uh, overpopulation, too many people moving to Florida, um-

    18. NA

      So it's pollution-based? Is that...

    19. MK

      Pollution-based, uh, agricultural-based.

    20. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MK

      Um, and th- th- the core of it is not allowing the water to flow south how it needs to naturally. So, the Everglades is the greatest filter in the entire world. It- it- it's a natural wonder of the world. It really is. And right now, we are not using it the way we should. Uh, we're... There are steps being taken to send water south and to start to restore some of this natural- n- natural flow. But the problem is, if we restored the natural flow to where it was, Palm Beach all the way down to Miami returns as a swampland.

    22. NA

      Oh.

    23. MK

      All of the sugarcane, which is huge money, at the south of Lake Okeechobee is swamp and is- is no longer, um, being able to use for sugarcane. And we see a lot of that, you know, um, make the decisions in what happens with our, uh, Everglades and conservation, is it's a lot of corruption, a lot of, uh, m- money driven rather than we need to set aside this piece of land, have it ch- uh, gather water, treat water, send it south to be filtered through our Everglades, and provide water to where it's dry, clean, healthy water, and then it can be filtered out through the Bay of Florida. Um, we're seeing more where that land is being kept for agriculture or something else, or where a project gets started and then it's lobbied and nothing gets done. We're seeing a lot of, um, just promises not being made as well.

    24. NA

      So, have they dammed the flow of this water?

    25. MK

      Yep. So there's a series of- of levees and locks that control the water in South Florida. It's controlled by South Florida Water Management. And you know, they started managing the water 100 years ago or more, I believe, uh, maybe even much further than that. And that's really where we went wrong, is we should have learned to kind of work with the water flow more, um, and not totally shut it off the way we have and- and totally made it manmade. Um, which, you know, like I said, they're trying to re- reverse some of that. Um, they just built a- a new lock that's gonna s- help send some of the water south through, uh, Tamiami Trail and 41, but it's just not enough. Uh, we need more water to be filtered and cleaned, and less of it to be dumped out into the estuaries on the east and west coast. This water will remain stagnant and it'll build blue-green algae, which is actually a bacteria. And this bacteria produces toxins. I believe it sucks up all the oxygen in the water. And I don't know if you've seen these fish kills we've had on the east and west coast, but that's exactly what it's from, is our water management. So it's not just the Everglades, but it's the east and west coast. And that's because they're taking the water that needs to be sent south, cleaned and filtered, and they're sending it out into these estuaries where it kills everything.

    26. NA

      Oh.

    27. MK

      And it- it's... You know, they're- they're protecting... Which, you know, I'm not blaming US Sugar by any means. Um, US Sugar does a lot to actually help Florida conservation. But it's just kind of a situation we've got ourselves in where there's not a great solution besides, you know, really taking away a lot of this money. And, um...... uh, our estuaries are just suffering for it. Our Everglades is suffering for it.

    28. JR

      Have they done anything to try to figure out how to mitigate whatever pollutants are getting into the water? Have they tried to figure out some sort of a solution?

    29. MK

      Um, I'm sure. I'm sure. Uh, I don't know if it's gained any traction 'cause right now, we're, we're having algae blooms as we speak, um, on Lake Okeechobee and different areas. And, um, no, I don't know of any, any solution to really compat- com- combat that algae bloom. Um, and especially once they have it, you know, it's, uh, the water levels get so high, they, they have to flow it out.

    30. JR

      Is there a way to do this without flooding Miami?

  11. 46:52 – 49:42

    What a ‘smart’ statewide python strategy could look like: access, training, and economic value

    1. JR

      So the Florida situation as it stands, wh- what, uh, what are the official efforts to mitigate the, uh, python population?

    2. MK

      So, um-

    3. JR

      What do you think they could do? Could they just open it up to pe- so in a perfect world, if you were the, the, the King of Florida-

    4. MK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JR

      ... and they said, "Hey, man, python cowboy, tell us what to do," and you're like, "This is what we're gonna do. You're gonna open this up to vehicles and put a bounty on these things."

    6. MK

      Yep. Um, not-

    7. JR

      Th- that would be it?

    8. MK

      Not necessarily.

    9. JR

      No?

    10. MK

      No, no, not necessarily. So that can be a little bit risky. Um, you know, we've seen not so much in these past python challenges. These past python challenges, the tournaments we have in Florida where the general public goes out there and competes for money catching pythons-

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MK

      ... they've been great. They've been super successful. We're not seeing much bad come from them. But in maybe, you know, six or seven years ago, maybe six years ago, I think it was, when they first came out with these competitions, and there wasn't any education behind it, it was, it was a free-for-all. You had a bunch of rednecks riding around in trucks with shotguns and AR-15s shooting every snake that moved, leaving trash out there, and it, it was just a terrible thing. Barely any pythons were caught or removed, and it, it just was not beneficial. Now, with all the education we've put out, um, between the news, social media, TV shows, um, you know, the state programs, we see a different kind of snake hunter out there. We see people that are trying to help, trying to do things the right way. They care about the ecosystem. They don't want to leave behind trash. And, you know, that is very encouraging for me to say something more like, yeah, let's, let's have a public bounty system where the general public can get out there and do what they need to do. But in order for that to be successful, we do need more access. Um, you know, if, if they want to protect the national park and all that, that's fine, okay? Let's still allow people to remove invasive species when they come across them, whether they're a state contractor or just some average Joe. But we will have penalties in place for anybody harming a native snake in the national park, where then people will be careful not to get in trouble and do something illegal. Um, outside the national park, which, you know, we have all kind of Francis S. Taylor, Rocky Glades, Frog Pond, all these different areas, Area 321, that have pythons in them and that we...... should allow more access, more airboat access, more buggy access year round,

  12. 49:42 – 59:01

    Dogs as the game-changer: finding nests, underground pythons, and training ‘Otto’

    1. MK

      and, um, show people how valuable these snakes are. The skin is extremely valuable. Um, it makes beautiful leather. There's people lining up to buy this leather. Um, I fund my entire python operation off this leather. I've actually quit. I resigned from the state. I, I hunted py-... I was one of the first state python hunter. Hunted for them for maybe about five years. Uh, this past two years, I decided to resign from the state because I'm not allowed to use a dog if I'm hunting for the state.

    2. NA

      Mm.

    3. MK

      Which is, you know, a little funny.

    4. NA

      That sounds crazy.

    5. MK

      Yep. So, um, you know, my thing is showing people that I'm funding my entire, entire operation off these snake skins. You can, mm, possibly make a living off these snake skins, definitely make some side money, and you're gonna be getting out there, helping the Everglades. If they were to add a bounty on top of that, I think in the very beginning, you might see a little bit of what we used to see, where you just have people out there for the wrong reasons, you know, trying to just get a picture with a snake or whatever. But I think they're gonna quickly see how hard it is. Um, they're not just catching snakes like they thought they were. And all those weekend warriors, all those people, they're gonna die off, and you're gonna be left with the general public that really does wanna help. They're gonna be good at it, and that's the only way we're, we're gonna get that under control. Um, you know, it's gonna have to be a delicate process to get there, I feel like. Um, you know, maybe everyone has to sign up for a license, and then for that license, they go through some kind of training course, like we do already for the python challenges. And, um, to me, that, that, that is the way to go. We need more than just the state contractors, who, to me, they're all hunting the same spots. They all hunt the public highways or these couple of levies that produce pythons, and they're just driving the road all night, up and down. And we need to get out in the swamp to get where they're nesting, where they're breeding, and where they're eating our native wildlife, and we're just not doing that like we should be. And that's why I've been putting so much into this python team I've been putting together, specifically to use dogs to help us find these snakes. And just this nesting season alone, I've completely proven that, that that's the only, only way to do it.

    6. NA

      Yeah.

    7. MK

      Yep. This, this season alone, I found maybe, uh, I think eight nests now, um, which to give you an idea, before this python season, there was like a handful of nest, nests ever found in the state. It's a very rare thing.

    8. NA

      Oh.

    9. MK

      Very, very rare. Before I used a dog, I found one nest. That's it. I don't know of any other person in the state of Florida that has found more than one nest. So, for this last two months alone, I'm finding that many nests. I'm finding, um, underground pythons. We never really understood how much they nest underground, that we have this season with my dog finding these, uh, snakes actually underground.

    10. NA

      Oh.

    11. MK

      And, um, you know, that's where a lot of them are going to nest. Almost every snake I've found in a hole-

    12. NA

      Is this one... Finding it underground python nest?

    13. MK

      Yeah. I, I took out, um, SeekOne Productions. They're like a, uh, a hunting media company.

    14. NA

      Oh, this is crazy. You're actually digging into the ground to get-

    15. MK

      And, and my-

    16. NA

      Oh, shit.

    17. MK

      My dog, Otto, alerted me to this hole, and he let me know that there was a python in this hole. And, uh, to be sure, I took my little camera, stuck it down in there, and sure enough, I could see a python in the very back of the hole.

    18. NA

      How do you train your dog to find pythons?

    19. MK

      Um, you know, there's definitely training that goes in- in- into it, but it is natural ability. Uh, these dogs are extremely talented. Not every dog will be a snake dog, especially. Um, you know, I've, I have 20 or more hunting dogs right now. I use them all to help me with invasive species and different things like that. Only a few of them will find me a snake. Uh, dogs and their instincts generally don't like snakes. They want to stay away from snakes. A lot of the dogs I've found, the snake's like invisible. It'll, it'll be stepping on it like it ain't even there. Um, but a few of my dogs, I don't know what it is, they, they're really, really good at it. Really good at it.

    20. NA

      And so just completely natural that they gravitate-

    21. MK

      It is.

    22. NA

      ... towards snakes.

    23. MK

      Um, we train all of our dogs. Don't, don't get me wrong. But we... Mainly the training was for other stuff ahead of time, and I'm just transferring it over into snakes.

    24. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    25. MK

      These dogs, I work with them every... Especially my dog, Otto, who's really getting the snakes for me now. This dog's with me every day. Like, we, we are s-

    26. NA

      What kind of dog is Otto?

    27. MK

      Uh, he's a German wire hair pointer.

    28. NA

      He's adorable.

    29. MK

      Um-

    30. NA

      He looks so happy.

  13. 59:01 – 1:12:10

    Eating invasives and hunting iguanas: air rifles, urban constraints, and huge removal numbers

    1. MK

      Yeah, we have very high mercury, uh, levels in our water. That's why actually a python over 10 foot in length really shouldn't be eating. Uh, its mercury contents will be dangerous high. And that's the same-

    2. JR

      Shouldn't be eating, people are eating pythons?

    3. MK

      You can. I wouldn't say people are, you know, down there having it for dinner every night. I've eaten it a number of times.

    4. JR

      Yeah?

    5. MK

      Um.

    6. JR

      What does it like?

    7. MK

      Very chewy. Um, very, very chewy. Uh, I'm no chef by any means. I- I think if you knew what you were doing and you were able to get it really tender and nice, it wouldn't be too bad.

    8. JR

      Like sous vide or something?

    9. MK

      Yeah, yeah. Um, the- the flavor's, the flavor's not bad at all. It's nice white meat, um, it's you're kinda eating it off the- the f- ribs like fish kind of almost, but, um, it's not bad at all. The iguana's delicious.

    10. JR

      Yeah, I've heard iguana is very good.

    11. MK

      Iguana's delicious.

    12. JR

      I've seen a lot of people, uh, kill them and cook them on YouTube.

    13. MK

      Yeah. Yes, sir.

    14. JR

      Where they- they cook like some stir-fry or... What do you, how do you cook iguanas?

    15. MK

      Again, it's not something like, "Hey, darling, I got some iguanas fried up for dinner," you know. It's, uh, I'm feeding most of it to my livestock and then making leather products from the skin. But, um, I've barbecued it. I've, um, uh, kind of pan-fried it in some General Tso's and pineapple, and that was actually really good. The, uh, I got a big male that had like these huge cheeks, and in the cheeks there's a- a nice medallion of meat and, uh, that's how I fried that up. It was good.

    16. JR

      Mm. Was it- does that taste similar to anything?

    17. MK

      It's almost like a dark meat frog leg.

    18. JR

      Mm, okay.

    19. MK

      Which sounds-

    20. JR

      I've had frog legs before.

    21. MK

      ... maybe a little gross, but it- it's not bad. It's not bad.

    22. JR

      Frogs are pretty good.

    23. MK

      Yeah. Oh, yeah, frogs are delicious.

    24. JR

      Yeah, it's just people have to get past the fact that it's a frog.

    25. MK

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, same thing with python and iguana.

    26. JR

      Yeah, so is that a common thing where people hunt and eat iguanas now in Florida?

    27. MK

      Um, not so much to hunt them to eat them. I think that's more just like a YouTube thing, you know, people-

    28. JR

      Right.

    29. MK

      ... love that stuff.

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  14. 1:12:10 – 1:18:19

    From mosquitoes to Miami crime: engineered bugs, Florida chaos, and the exotic pet culture link

    1. JR

      Have you seen this insane research they're doing about injecting mosquitoes with vaccines?

    2. MK

      (laughs) Scary shit.

    3. JR

      Yeah. What the fuck are they doing?

    4. MK

      Scary shit. Well, they- they want you to get that damn (laughs) shot anyway.

    5. JR

      Yeah, but this, this is crazy. This one's crazy.

    6. MK

      Yeah, that is.

    7. JR

      Like, the idea that you're gonna contain those mosquitoes once you release 'em out in the wild.

    8. MK

      Yeah, and what's gonna happen? We've seen-

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. MK

      ... how things have gone wrong before.

    11. JR

      Yeah.

    12. MK

      Or-

    13. JR

      How do you not learn from all w- all the stuff we've been talking about earlier today, invasive species, cats, toads, th- th- the fact that you've got some genetically engineered mosquito and you're releasing it on the human race. Like, holy shit, man.

    14. MK

      Well, well, here's something on that too, is... So they're doing that. They've already released them in Florida, from my understanding. They're already out there. They-

    15. JR

      Which mosquitoes?

    16. MK

      The modified ones. I don't know about the, the-

    17. JR

      Not the vaccine ones?

    18. MK

      Not the vaccine, but the modified ones.

    19. JR

      And what are these modified ones supposed to be doing?

    20. MK

      I guess helping with the mosquito population? I don't- I don't-

    21. JR

      I hope so.

    22. MK

      (laughs) I don't know. But I do know, supposedly, and I- I'm pretty sure this is accurate, we had our first case of malaria in Florida, like ever-

    23. JR

      Yeah.

    24. MK

      ... or from a, for a very, very long time.

    25. JR

      Texas as well.

    26. MK

      Texas as well.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. MK

      So, you know, it's a little-

    29. JR

      Same places where they're working on these fucking mosquitoes.

    30. MK

      Same places they're working on these fucking mosquitoes.

  15. 1:18:19 – 1:35:13

    The Aerojet satanic-ritual story: abandoned rocket facility, disturbing evidence, and occult history

    1. MK

      I've found animals that have just been dumped. Um, I've found very intricate and mind-blowing Satanic rituals and sacrifices out there.

    2. JR

      What?

    3. MK

      Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, so I was-

    4. JR

      Right.

    5. MK

      ... which I found- I found different stuff before. You know, I'll find maybe s- where someone was doing some voodoo, some Santeria, sacrificed a chicken, whatever. All that's, like, kinda normal out there. That's not that crazy. But what I found this night was- was very crazy.

    6. JR

      Oh, you documented it.

    7. MK

      Yeah, the- the police came and investigated it. Um, it made the news. And that's- that's the facility I was hunting. Uh, it's Aerojet. It's actually, uh, an abandoned space rocket facility from the Cold War, where they were developing and testing space rockets.

    8. JR

      And what were you hunting there?

    9. MK

      Pythons. Um, I was out there, you know, hunting these snakes. And this- this facility is- is, um... you need special access. I was given special access by the State of Florida to remove pythons from out there. And nobody can just go back out there, but people do go out there, as you can see from the graffiti and different stuff like that, usually to do stuff that they're not supposed to do. There's a lot of crimes committed out there. There have been, um, murders out there, gang initiations, all kinda stuff.

    10. JR

      So they have a pentagram that's-

    11. MK

      So...Yeah. It's, it's a whole thing. So we go out there, the first thing I came across was a big rock pile with a upside down wooden cross on top, and a bunch of red spray painted upside down crosses all over. And you could tell the, the cross, I think, was burnt a little bit. And it wasn't, you know, crazy, super crazy. It was, it was like, "Oh, this is new." You know, "This wasn't out here a few days ago." And then I found this little doll and, um, as I kinda investigated that doll more, uh, a little red scarlet snake actually came up and wrapped around her neck. And I picked up the s- there it is, I picked up the scarlet snake and, um, which, you know, is kinda weird that there's a live snake, a red snake on this doll. And I've caught a lot of snakes in my life, and that is the only one that was bleeding out of its anus. There was blood coming out of its b-hole, which, you know, I don't know why, who knows what. It was a little weird to me. Um, and then the night just kinda gets weirder from there. You see the, the red lettering in the other clip, it was a big Latin saying, uh, like 100 foot long pretty much on the road. I drove over it. We later translated it to, "Turn around, run, hide, he is watching you." Go further into the complex and there's these big abandoned buildings. I go into the building, um, you know, still just python hunting, like, you know, who knows what these kids are doing out here. I thought it was strange, the Latin. Your average kid just messing around don't know Latin sayings like that. And then I come to this big room where there's the big pentagram. Uh, in the middle of the pentagram, there is a, uh, three-legged plastic chair with a blood stain in the bottom of it where you could s- tell something was killed, sacrificed, whatever. On each wall, there's three walls, on each wall there's upside down crosses, Latin sayings, and all kinds of stuff. As I'm kinda walking into the room, which, you know, I don't wanna sound like a, a, a psycho or anything, but that doll from earlier grabbed my leg. I don't know if I kicked it, I didn't see it or what, but that doll from the rock pile somewhere else, I don't know if it was another doll or what, I never seen that other doll. I kick it, it seemed like it grabbed me, it's that same doll from earlier. Same thing with the, the cross on its forehead, the one eye cocked over, the other eye messed up. And so, you know, it's very, very weird to me. It kinda like scared me. Right next-

Episode duration: 1:54:44

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