EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,247 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast.…
- JRJoe Rogan
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
- DGDavid Grusch
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) What's up?
- JRJoe Rogan
How are you, man?
- DGDavid Grusch
Hey. Good, good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Thanks for coming here. Appreciate it.
- DGDavid Grusch
Y- yeah. (laughs) Yeah. No, it's, it's a pleasure.
- JRJoe Rogan
You've been on a whirlwind sort of tour. Um, I guess we should start from the beginning.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So first of all, uh, lay out to people what your job was with the military and how this all started for you.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah, yeah. So I was a Intel officer in the Air Force for 14 years, seven active, seven reserve. Uh, then I kind of had, like, a parallel track in the civilian intel world when I became a reservist. Um, (smacks lips) uh, and, uh, ultimately, I got brought back in in civil service in a government way at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency couple years ago, um, at a senior level. Uh, so I was a major in the Air Force and a GS-15 at NGA, which is, like, a full bird colonel equivalent civilian employee. Uh, you know, I'm very humbled that I was able to kind of get that kind of job. But, uh, my career, mostly, I didn't even really think about this topic. UFOs were not on my radar. I wasn't really a believer. I was agnostic about it. Uh, pre- most of my career, I did a lot of, uh, you know, behind the door special access program, uh, technical type activities. I was kind of a space intelligence expert, a cyber intel expert. And, uh, like I said, this was not on my radar at all. You know, like, I would joke with my buddies, 'cause I used to handle, um, the presidential daily brief for the National Reconnaissance Office director in my, my military capacity as a reservist. And I was well cleared to hundreds and hundreds of compartmented programs. And, you know, the joke was like, "When are we gonna get the read on for the crazy shit?" And that never happened. Uh, and, and I do remember the, the day that I really can remember that I was like, "Huh, what's with this UFO stuff?" I was, uh, briefing a senior person, uh, at the CIA into a couple hundred special access programs. Uh, so I was at the headquarters at the agency. And, you know, after the indoctrination I was giving to the senior person, this person, um, who worked with, uh, Lue Elizondo, uh, previously was like, "Yeah, have... Dave, have you ever heard of this guy, Lue Elizondo? He's running some UFO program at the Pentagon. Um, we all think he's crazy." And I'm like, "I, I don't know who this guy Lue Elizondo is, and I don't know of any kind of UFO program. So that sounds nuts to me." But lo and behold, and that was like early 2017, and lo and beholds in December 2017, that New York Times article came out with the, uh, that named the AATIP program and the AAWSAP program, so Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program and Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program being the other acronym. And I was like, "Holy shit. Wait, that's that guy Lue Elizondo that I heard about. Oh, you know what? I think I have heard of AAWSAP." When I was a lieutenant, I used to read these reports from the Defense Intelligence Agency on black holes and stuff, and I was like, "Huh, that's, like, stupid. Why is the DIA, um, looking into black holes, time warps?" It just didn't make any sense to me back in, like, '08, '09 when I was a lieutenant. And all of a sudden, I'm like, "Well, maybe there's something to this UFO thing." I'm not saying I was, like, a believer either way on the subject, but this i- this was a topic of concern apparently for the Pentagon. And in 2018, I started doing kind of my, what I call my open source literature review. Like, "Let me spin myself up on this topic," watching Chris Mellon, Lue Elizondo, Leslie Kean, all these people talk about the subject and then, you know, just trying to understand, so what is this with UFOs? Has this been going on for a while? The answer is yes, like Foo Fighters, sightings of weird stuff in antiquity, et cetera, which, you know, we can get into later. But, uh, and so early 2019 comes along, and my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, in kind of my Air Force major capacity, forwarded me an email from the, what became a, uh, stood up in, like, I guess it was 2018, which was the unidentified, well it was aerial, now anonym- anonymous phenomena task force, UAP task force. So the UAP task force director sent my boss an email saying, "Hey, we're looking for a rep to the task force." And as, like any good officer, I was like, "Well, I'll put it on my performance report. Hey, I was on a task force," and, you know, that would look good. And I ha- being well cleared and also, uh, bachelor's degree in physics, uh, master's in intelligence analysis, I'm like, "You know what? I'll figure out what this shit is. It's either gonna be weather shit. Maybe it's an adversarial program. Maybe it's, like, uh, a US program people are misidentifying on rare occasions. So fuck it, I'll, I'll go see where the data takes me." And, you know, early 2019 or so, I joined the UAP task force. Um, and then I started, you know, interviewing pilots, um, uh, flag officers, you know, general officer equivalent type Navy folks. And, you know, they were seeing some really crazy shit. And, uh, like a, you know, event that I talked about previously publicly in a YouTube video on, uh, the, uh, Yes Theory channel, you know, I... There was this one 30-year senior Navy officer that, you know, he was going to work sober, no predisposition for fantasy, all that kind of stuff, 'cause I interviewed the individual for a couple hours, and he saw this, you know, crazy triangle hover over his car going to work at a certain naval facility. And it, like, blew his mind. He was serious. Um, the paint on his car turned milky white after the incident. So that's, to me, that sounds like ionizing radiation. So like ultraviolet, just like how your-... your headlights get all foggy over time if you park your car out in the sun. Same phenomenon just happened, you know, within a 24-hour period. And I'm like, "Whoa. If this is true and the, the, the oral testimony and, you know, crazy radar data that I saw when I was in the taskforce, you know, stuff making turns that didn't make any sense, well, holy shit, what is this stuff then?"
- JRJoe Rogan
This, um-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... anomaly with his paint-
- DGDavid Grusch
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wa- is this documented? Is there photographs, or-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yes. I saw-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah?
- DGDavid Grusch
... photographs. It was documented, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, w- what ... Is there a conventional explanation?
- DGDavid Grusch
I mean, based on what he described, uh, something to rapidly ionize his paint like that within a, a day? I don't ... I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional aerospace technology. And, and this was a certain facility in the continental US. This was not overseas. So, it's not like our adversary's flying some spooky thing, um, in US airspace.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, this thing hovered over his car for how long?
- DGDavid Grusch
Couple minutes while he was traveling at about 60 miles an hour or so. It was pacing his vehicle.
- JRJoe Rogan
How far away from his vehicle?
- DGDavid Grusch
Hmm. (sighs) It's probably a couple hundred feet in altitude. It was less than 1,000 feet-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DGDavid Grusch
... which is also bad because from an airspace perspective, pilots would know this, anything under 1,000 feet, no, unless you get special clearance, and you only do that over controlled airspace, like a military test ranges, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DGDavid Grusch
Where people fly low and that kind of thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, is, is he on ... What kind of a highway is he on?
- DGDavid Grusch
A conventional civilian highway.
- 15:00 – 30:00
So this is obviously…
- DGDavid Grusch
who, what, when, where, why, where the shit is, who's in control of it, what are the cover programs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, uh, and that's what deemed my, my complaint credible and urgent in July 2022, uh, which is a s- ... So the ... My complaint, yes, was about reprisal too. I filed that separately eventually to the, the Department of Defense Inspector General, and that's an ongoing investigation, but my ... It was my congressional oversight, uh, UAP crash retrieval allegations that was deemed, uh, credible and urgent. It was sent to the Director of National Intelligence and then it was sent to the Congressional Intelligence Committees around that time, July of 2022. And I eventually went to Congress in December of 2022. And it's a crazy story why it took so long. It's fucking nuts. Um, but I provided total about 11 and a half to 12 hours of, uh, you know, classified testimony to the congressional staffers and their lawyers for both the House and the Senate. And I, I went, you know, full open kimono. I mean, I told them as much as I could within my time slot, if you will, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this is obviously very compartmentalized where-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
... there's only a few people that know about this information and they're not allowed to discuss it with other people.
- DGDavid Grusch
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
When did this all start? I mean, is this-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... out of Roswell? Is it predate that? Like, when, when did they first realize that there are things that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means?
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah, I mean, the program goes back a ways. The precise, mm, beginning of it I can't talk about, but I did ... Because of security stuff. But I did talk about, uh, publicly the 1933 retrieval and I did that, uh, tactically and I ran that through the Security Approval Office because I wanted it to show that this is much older and it's international. It's not like a US thing. I mean, th- this stuff is landing or crashing around the world and unexpected countries have had this happen, and that's why I picked that 'cause I thought that was a interesting case. And then of course the, you know, Pope Pius XII and the Vatican were involved back channeling it through the OSS, which became the CIA later, to FDR and that's how the US knew something weird happened in Italy during ... Well, right before World War II, but yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this is '33-
- DGDavid Grusch
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... was the first, like, documented?
- DGDavid Grusch
Uh, (laughs) I can't ... That is the earliest one I can talk about. Yeah. There's a-
- JRJoe Rogan
Something that predates that?
- DGDavid Grusch
My ... You could infer that.
- JRJoe Rogan
You could infer that?
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this '33 one you said was in Italy?
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah, Magenta. So it's, uh ... I'm bad at geography. I think that's like Lombardy region. It's like northern, northwest Italy.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what's the story behind it?
- DGDavid Grusch
So, um, basically it, it, it looked like it crashed, right? I- Uh, the original shape most likely was like a lenticular disc-like craft, you know, with like, uh, two dinner plates-
- JRJoe Rogan
What does lenticular mean?
- DGDavid Grusch
So like two dinner plates, you know, smooshed together, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DGDavid Grusch
A hump. And there's like a, you know, like a bubble on top of it.
- JRJoe Rogan
The classic flying saucer.
- DGDavid Grusch
Classic like, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Flying saucer.
- DGDavid Grusch
Like that. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like that. Okay.
- 30:00 – 45:00
So they gained access?…
- DGDavid Grusch
et cetera. And I'm like, "Why are you asking for the most serious SAP to be created for a program that ostensibly is looking at Skinwalker Ranch and stuff? And it doesn't make any sense." So what really happened there, and, uh, you know, Harry Mead- Harry Reid, God bless his soul, made this disclosure, um, a couple weeks after we met, uh, in The New Yorker. And you can look this up. I think it was, like, a May 2021 New Yorker story where he says, "I knew for decades..." And he made this disclosure, not me, so I'm gonna say the name of the contractor. (laughs) Harry Reid said this. Uh, you know, "We knew that Lockheed Martin had this material for decades. I tried to get access, and I was denied," and specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff, he was talking about during the AAOSAP program.And for the people who are on this program, I submitted this shit to the officer, got this cleared, so don't freak out, but I'm telling the truth here. Um, so Lockheed Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me, that I provided to the inspector general, um, like street address, all that shit, right? And the idea was, if they made a catcher's mitt, a security catcher's mitt for this shit at, uh, you know, most serious sap possible, the contractor and the other government customer, which was the Central Intelligence Agency, um, for that specific Lockheed material, and it was shit that they recovered from, like, the '50s and stuff. And it was, like, bits and pieces of- of- of- of, like, hull structure, shit like that. And, um, uh, so they were gonna tech transfer it, and the $21 or $22 million was actually for Bigelow Aerospace to build out, you know, facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment. And I've s- I have- I saw the staff meeting slides. I saw the paperwork. Like, there's a f- paperwork trail I've seen on this shit, and I talked to the people involved in this program. And, you know, even Jim Lacatski, who ran the program, uh, who's a re- retired DIA officer, PhD in engineering, even made this disclosure in his book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, uh, page 152 to 153. And he also made a disclosure a couple weeks ago, I think it was on Weaponize podcast with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, where he's like, "Yeah, we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained access." And he ran that through the same, you know, security process as I did. And so Jim Lacatski, who ran this program, is also going on the record that he is aware, uh, personally aware of intact vehicles and everything, but, uh, long-
- JRJoe Rogan
So they gained access?
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah, mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
What does that mean? And- and by what method-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... did they gain access?
- DGDavid Grusch
The way he wrote it in his book, I can only infer it sounded forcib- forcible. So through some kind of, you know, means, I don't know if it was, like, CO2 laser or something. I don't actually know how they gained access, but imagine it was, uh, not permissive access. They, like, broke into the damn thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this thing-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... is essentially, uh, sealed and it's-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... some sort of, uh... What was the shape of this thing?
- DGDavid Grusch
Uh, he- Lacatski didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle, it- as far as I recollect.
- JRJoe Rogan
It- it's... What about the dimensions?
- DGDavid Grusch
N- I don't believe he did in his book, uh, but I think it's, like, chapter 11 in his new book or something. I glanced at it. But he did make that disclosure on video as well, and I do encourage both the AARO office, which is the DoD's UAP Task Force successor, and Congress to ask Dr. James Lacatski to come in for classified testimony, because the disclosure in his one book that he wrote with Colm Kelleher, George Knapp, and in the second book, well, the guy's saying he has close personal knowledge, he needs to go to Congress. So I- you know, I- I don't know James Lacatski, but I do encourage him to be a FAC witness. Uh, but going back to that transfer with Lockheed, long story short, can't get into all the nuanced details, but basically, the CIA, uh, said fuck you to DIA and Lockheed, and it was totally killed. So Harry Reid's request to get the material transferred to the AAOSAP program was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff. So they used that money, and then they, you know, they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents, the DIRDs, as a lot of people who's familiar with a- a- listening will know about. And then they did look at Skinwalker Ranch because they thought that studying kind of the more woo-woo phenomenon aspects of this... And I've never been to the ranch, so I've never experienced the ranch for myself, but, you know, obviously, I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff, or at least allege that. Um, they thought that they would be able to gain currency with the- with "the program," you know, in- in this case, CIA, to unlock the key for the Lockheed Martin stuff. Uh, which actually, I'll tell you right now, it's, like, so weird to say that, but I- I ran that shit through security. Um, yet to me it's like an out-of-body experience to talk about that kind of, uh, detailed sensitivity, uh, stuff like that. But- but basically they studied the ranch to gain favor, to be like, "Hey, look at all this stuff we're figuring out, this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch." But ultimately, they never gained favor with the government customer, and then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon. So that's kind of the long but short of it with the AAOSAP program that, you know, I wanted to make sure the public knew it's not what you think it was. There was some other stuff behind the scenes that, you know, I wanted to speak truth to power on.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this, uh, particular vehicle that they had recovered from the 1950s, what- what was the source of it? Where did they find it?
- DGDavid Grusch
Uh, those details, uh, I did not get cleared, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DGDavid Grusch
... yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they have in possession this thing, they gain access to this thing, and what do they report once they've gained access to it?
- DGDavid Grusch
Oh, those details I- I do not know. That's a- that's probably a question for Dr. Lacatski. Um, I presume he knows those details. I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this thing is housed somewhere?
- DGDavid Grusch
It is, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Currently?
- DGDavid Grusch
It may still be in the same location that I know about, yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And how many people have access to this, and how did they prevent this information from being released?
- DGDavid Grusch
I mean, a l- you know, it goes back to the compartmentation and kind of the ecosystem of secrecy in this community, right? You know, only a limited amount of people, you know, at least at the time, you know, on Lockheed Martin's side...And, and Lockheed Martin was complaining basically like, "Look, like, the secrecy's ridiculous. We can't even bring the right engineers." Like, imagine you're like a hot engineer... oh, (laughs) hot engineer. No. Hotshot engineer. You might be hot too, I don't know. But, (laughs) , that, you know, you're fresh outta grad school, maybe you're like the best PhD electrical engineer, you wanna do cool shit, you wanna publish in IEEE, you wanna like, you know, climb the ladder corporately, you know, and that kinda thing. A Lockheed Martin executive comes to you, "Yeah, dude, uh, you're gonna... I can read you into something really crazy, but you're never gonna publish papers on it, you're never gonna be able to tell people what you worked on, and it's probably not the most career-enhancing. But if you wanna work on something cool, but I can't tell you 'cause it's unacknowledged until you sign this piece of paper, nondisclosure agreement, um, uh, uh, you know, sorry, but here's the raw deal." And, you know, a lot of people are like, "Fuck you, no." And, and it's not like Lockheed Martin could broadcast this to universities, like, "Come work for us-"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DGDavid Grusch
"... you'll work on crazy shit." A- and, but that is very akin to a lotta other black programs in the government that are unacknowledged in nature. You don't know what you're signing up for until you get brought in. And I've, you know, I've been briefed to a lotta that kinda conventional stuff in my career.
- JRJoe Rogan
So, one, that's one of the, the problems that Bob Lazar... And I'd love to get your take on Bob Lazar. One of, one of the things that he talked about was that science can't really operate in a vacuum.
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
(coughs) …
- DGDavid Grusch
oversight issue, like going back to Harry Reid. Harry Reid didn't even get access, and I fucking talked to him myself to con- confirm that. And he said he was gonna go talk to Biden. Um, 'cause I think there needs to be a disclosure plan. This goes back to what's currently in legislation right now that's super fucking important. Um, because 90 some, 90 some odd percent of this should, should be open for public discovery, public, um, analysis in academia. This should be like, at very least, true nuclear programs such as nuclear physics, you study in university. Nuclear weapons, classified, because that makes people in the pink mist. That's really sensitive. We don't need everybody to know how to do that. So, I think the stuff that is like legit weapons-related stuff, that's like straight up national superiority stuff, sure. Reasonably classify that, but, but this, these programs, we need a change. And that's why you saw the Schumer Amendment, right? And I think you might've read that on air or something in a previous episode if I remember correctly. You know, Chuck Schumer ... And I knew about the amendment a couple months before I went public, and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did. I'm like, "Fuck, I'm like the only guy that kinda has the opportunity to do this." I know what's in the chute, so to speak-
- JRJoe Rogan
(coughs)
- DGDavid Grusch
... that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer Amendment, which is 67 pages of literal, "We want to disclose." And I'm like, "I have to spike the football by going public," because, you know, I can read the tea leaves on the Hill, and I think they were hesitant to do anything, uh, without being able to point to something publicly. And I'm like, "I'll be that fucking guy and just send it." Um, and, and then of course a month after I went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge, and I do know he talked to the White House about the amendment too, 'cause it's not like Chuck Schumer's gonna propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the national security advisor or president. Like, I imagine he did so. And, you know, so you have this 67-page am- amendment, right? It's called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023, known as the Schumer Amendment. Co-sponsors were Young, Gillibrand, Rubio, uh, Rounds-
- JRJoe Rogan
(sniffs)
- DGDavid Grusch
... yeah, and Young. And, you know, kudos for those senators for stepping up to the plate, 'cause they know this is real. I know what meetings they've had with certain other individuals that are, you know, even more credible than myself. And so this, this act, which is like super important, is currently in conference as we speak, in Capitol Hill, so the amendment is wrapped in something called the Fiscal Year 2024 National Defense Authorization Act. So that is the act that funds the military basically every year, right? So it's an amendment within this bill. And, uh, the act is really long, but the main meat of it is about halfway through the act. It talks about a presidential panel or agency, which is nine person, and a controlled UAP disclosure plan that's six years in length, conceivably from 2024 to 2030. And this panel ... And you can read this. This is public law. Anybody can read this. They want scientists, economists, you know, uh, you know, uh, sociologists, et cetera. It's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president, and this whole bill was actually built off the JFK Records Act, which I know, like they're like, "Well, they never released all the records." Well, we put some teeth in the bill, some eminent domain, some other stuff, the, you know, kind of force the issue. Now granted, the chief executive, the president has the final say. The panel can't compel the executive to do it, but like, I hope the president does, and I support that.But- so the Senate already passed it. They're chill with this. This is like, "We're- we're good to go." And- and- but there's pushback in the House right now that is, you know, pardon my language, fucking ridiculous. So they're saying, for one, it's duplicating the DoD AARO office activities. They're doing good things. They're looking at UAP reports, trying to figure out what's balloons and air trash and what's weird stuff. And of course, they are doing an historical review to try to understand the US's history on this too. But the problem is, with that agency, it- it's within the DoDNIC, not above. So you have an issue reaching into Department of Energy, other, you know, cabinet-level agencies. You need a presidential-level panel that can declassify stuff, reach into other agencies, and tell, you know, certain secretaries, "We're coming in. We want your stuff under presidential authority." So what's happening in the House, from what I'm told from people on the Hill that are working the issue right now, you have the- the chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking this, uh, from Ohio, Dayton, Ohio area, Wright-Patt. Weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DGDavid Grusch
And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wright-Patt meaning Wright-Patterson Air Force.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah. And, uh, Mike Rogers, which I'm kind of surprised, uh, from Alabama, who's the chair of the House Armed Services Committee. So I have a problem with Mike and Mike right now. So Mike Turner... Now, remember, I went to his committee in December of last year. Uh, he wasn't there, but his staff and lawyers were. And of course, he goes on Fox Business after the hearing, doesn't use my name. He's like, "This whistleblower, he has no idea what he's talking about." I'm like, "Really? Tell me, Mike, have you ever been an intel officer or served in the military? Oh, wait, you've been the amer- the mayor of Dayton, Ohio. You were voted most corrupt person in Congress a couple, uh, years ago. And, uh, pull up his PAC donors. Who are his biggest donors? Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing. Okay. So, uh, and first of all, if you thought that you needed more information or wanted to talk to me personally, why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee?" So, uh, and furthermore, besides blocking the bill, I'm sure you're familiar with, like, Representative Tim Burchett of Alabama, and he's been very outspoken on the issue. And we- we may not agree with everything Tim says about conventional stuff. That's, you know, here nor there. But, you know, he's been a champion on the Oversight Committee, and he was, you know, one of the members that I testified in public under oath regarding this. So like, uh... And Mike Turner is looking to fund, according to staffers I've talked to, uh, last two weeks, an opposition candidate for Tim's reelection in 2024. So why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the Oversight Committee? And why are you blocking a bill, and it's not gonna cost much, couple million a year max, you know, for the panel, which is like vaporware in US government-speak, right? Um, uh, if there's nothing to see here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the House blocking this bill that is, in my opinion, the most important legislation for in- transparency in American history? If there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy, multi-star generals I talk to are crazy, the intel docs that I read are incorrect, they're fucking forgeries or passage material or something like that, good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some consorted, uh, operation against me and my colleagues, that it would be totally crazy to even conduct that, 'cause I took precautions, then why don't we just pass this and see what happens?
- JRJoe Rogan
And why, what do you think the answer to that is?
- DGDavid Grusch
Special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle, even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube, and I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want change. And I'm not here to be s- like, some total adversary. I- I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process on this issue. I'm not here to throw people in jail. I'm not here for big contractors involved to lose money. I think this is- would be a boon, and I think the leadership in these companies need to think about this, where if we're more open with this, you can hire people. You can push the subject into undergraduate, graduates, and postdoctoral programs of, uh, you know, research to study this in an unclassified... Just like nuclear physics. And this answers a fundamental question, uh, you know, for humanity. Are we alone, or, you know, what happens when we die? Well, I don't know about that, but are we alone? Well, the answer is, we're not alone, and I know that with 100% certainty, which as an intel officer, you never say 100%. But th- all things pointed towards, uh, based on the people I talked to, like Harry Reid, and I use him as an example, but I talk to the highest of the high people you could possibly talk to, if you catch my drift. So-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DGDavid Grusch
Unless all them are lying and they're covering up something else, which I don't even know what it would be at this point, because the phenomenon is real. It's been going on for thousands of years. People have been seeing strange things, and not everybody's mass hallucinating. So that's kind of my long diatribe about what's happening, so.
- JRJoe Rogan
What do they think these things are? The people that you talk to.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah. So they, specifically the people on the program that handle the material, that were in executive-level briefings with intel community leaders and other folks over the years, last 20 years or so, they did use the term extraterrestrial, ET or whatever.Okay. That isn't a possible origin. But the Schumer Amendment, if you read it, it specifically uses non-human intelligence, NHI, very deliberately because we wanna catch everything. Because what if some of this stuff is not ET and they're going to use it as an escape clause. Like, "Well, this stuff, that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial, so this doesn't apply." So, that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible. I mean, besides ET, I mean, a lot of it would be my own, uh, personal opinion. I think we have a couple conceivable buckets, and I'm using the work of Jacques Vallée, other people that have thought deeply on the issue, on how the phenomenon has changed since an- antiquity. It showed its- showed itself in a different way. Like, a good example is like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with p- p- you know, uh, paralysis in medieval and enlightenment area- you know, era, became this alien abduction phenomenon, uh, in the modern area. Er, uh, era, excuse me. And is it, is it the- the recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing the phenomenon based on a modern interpretation? You know, inside out. Or is the phenomenon ... This is like Jacques Vallée's book, Passport to Mag- Magnolia. Magnolia, I can never pronounce it right, 1969 where he talks about the phenomenon seems to, like, masquerade itself as different stuff over the years, but, you know, we've seen roughly the same stuff. If you look at the Foo Fighters of World War II. Uh, there are declassified Air Force OSI reports from the '50s, you- people can Google the talk about flying butane tanks with the same measurements approximately what we saw in the 2004 Tic Tac incident, but they called it flying propane or, you know, butane tanks in the '50s. So, uh, from a morphology, or in the Air Force intel we call it vis recce, visual reconnaissance, like, they basically look the same and we can back azimuth that, you know, decades if not hundreds of years in the past, you know, Wheels of Ezekiel, right? They're seeing these, like, disc-type objects, right? And unless Ezekiel is, uh, tripping or this is an allegory or fable in the, in the Bible, you know, let's say the event happens. Just like the- in the Vedic texts, you have the battles. The blue people in the, uh, battles, uh, in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons. Like, what's going on there? I mean, maybe that's a Graham Hancock or Randall Carlson type thing. They could- they know more than I. So, there is a real phenomenon that, uh, origin undetermined, but it- it's trippy and sometimes it presents itself in, like, a non-corporeal form too. You know, orbs, balls of energy, uh, you know, they- that- they don't appear as, like, some kind of bipedal hominid like some people have expoused. So, I think that might be, call it interdimensional, call it shadow biome, crypto terrest- I mean, there's a lot of different theories. Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What are the primary theor- the primary theories are from another planet or-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... from another dimension?
- DGDavid Grusch
I think those are the primary. I mean, there's certainly origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're just- our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand and, you know, our IQs are only so high. So, there might be some origins that we don't understand.
- JRJoe Rogan
In terms of, like, interdimensional travel?
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, if you talk to mainstream physicists they say, like, crossing dimensions physically is kind of a trope of sci-fi, and, you know, I- that's why I used an example and I know some physicists don't like me talking about this theory, but it is a theory. You know, like, so the holographic principle which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole, which is a distance away from the singularity of a black hole where if you cross it, you're fucked. 'Cause you're gonna get ripped to shreds or you're not coming back. And, uh, that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space. And the easiest example is, like, us casting a shadow on a sidewalk, right? Three-dimensional object, 2D shadow on a sidewalk. If you lived in two-dimensional space, Flatland, you'd be tripped out. "What the fuck am I seeing?" But they just don't know that it's really just a person in higher dimensional space. So, as some of the- I mean, obviously we have physical material that's in three-dimensional space that we've recovered, but at least maybe some of the phenomenon is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but is either being projected or quasi-projected into
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
Could you dumb down-…
- DGDavid Grusch
our 3D plus time space, which is really trippy to think about, but we literally do it on a day-to-day basis, like casting shadows. So, and that might be some of what we're seeing too, but, I mean, I presume we know more. The people I talked to did not, uh, espouse they had full knowledge either. Like I said, the- the- the normal colloquialism was to say ET or extraterrestrial. So, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Could you dumb down-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... this concept of interdimensional?
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what ... I know in physics they have theorized that there are multiple dimensions other than those that we can currently detect.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah. And a lot of that is based off of, like, Lorentz ... This is my bachelor's degree talking.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DGDavid Grusch
I know there's gonna be, like, some physicist who has a PhD who's like, "Oh, Dave, you fucked that up." But-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DGDavid Grusch
But basically, you know, from high energy particle collisions and based on the deflection angles and all the stuff what happens when the particles collide, you know, uh, confirm certain theoretical frameworks about extra spatial dimensions and, you know, I can't speak, uh, with any real authority on, you know, precisely how that works, but a lot of-... um, you know, whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics or based off of higher spacial dimensions. And, um, you know, so that is a mainstream physics, uh, theoretical framework. That's not like wacky or loony or anything like that, so. Uh, but that's basically, uh, a possibility. But like I said, like, we don't really have a good theory if you, if you work, if you lived in like 5D space, for example, it's almost like, um ... Remember the ending of the movie Interstellar, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DGDavid Grusch
Where, where he's pushin' the books.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DGDavid Grusch
He's like in a tesseract, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DGDavid Grusch
... which is like a four to five D structure, but he's trying to interact with 3D space. And of course he like leaves that space to come back to his daughter many years later at the end of, ending of the movie. Great movie. But, um, so, uh, that's a way to conceptualize it in something you may have watched in film. It's kinda like the ending of Inter- Interstellar.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DGDavid Grusch
Oh yeah, yeah there you go.
- JRJoe Rogan
This is, this is ...
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is based on what? Like what theory?
- DGDavid Grusch
So the physicist Kip Thorne was the very famous guy. He was a big black hole and wormhole guy. I think it's Caltech or somewhere in California. Kip Thorne actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing, uh, black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly in the movie. We saw like the, the halo around the black hole, uh, when they were comin' in with the ship and everything. That's actually based off of real physics models that, uh, Kip Thorne did the calculations for, which is pretty cool actually that Christopher Nolan took it to that level, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
So this idea that these beings or whatever you wanna call them, exist in some other dimension, do we have ... I mean, I don't know what you can say about this. Do we have an understanding? Do we have any sort of communication with these beings that give us some sort of an understanding or a map of this?
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah, the interaction stuff, uh, that's a sensitive area. Um, there are multiple very senior people that were concerned about talking about that kinda stuff with me. Uh, I mean that is certainly, as nuts as it sounds, that was a real subject of conversation, even if it sounds like somethin' out of like Star Trek: First Contact, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
But it doesn't if you have vehicles.
- DGDavid Grusch
Well, yeah. So it's, it's like once you realize the phenomenon's real, then you realize we've recovered artifacts and, you know, biologics or, you know, dead pilots if you will, even though it's, you know, kind of creepy to even think about that in your world view, you don't think they were ever, you know, alive sometimes too? Right? And I'll, you know, I'll leave it at that only because a- you know, that is something, you know, the, the president and his cabinet needed to disclose this in a controlled manner going back to that amendment. You know, I'm not here to, uh, you know, push the subject in an improper way, and that sounds like, "Why don't you just do it, Dave?" I'm like, "There's a lot of secondary and tertiary ramifications, socioeconomically, theologically, um, our relationship geopolitically with our allies and adversaries. This is not, uh, rip off the Band-Aid and it's simple." There, there's a, there's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen and that's why I'm, I'm laying out all the general stuff that needs to be talked about-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DGDavid Grusch
... during the disclosure process. But I should not be the one disclosing and it would be highly inappropriate 'cause I care about the health of the United States and its people and national security for me to do so. So I know there's people that are like, "Well, oh, why doesn't Dave say X, Y and Z?" It's like this is serious. This is not like ha ha, let me tell you a good story. I'm a serious guy. I ruined my fucking career doing this. I was gonna make lieutenant colonel in the Air Force in, this winter. I was on track to be, you know, a flag officer equivalent civilian, uh, in my career. Uh, I spent 18 years in uniform, uh, if you count the cadet time, right? Uh, my whole adult life was serving as an Intel officer. But I wanted to see ch- and I'm 36, right? Older millennial. I wanted to see change, so I'm throwin' the flag out and I'm here to hold the government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough because I don't begin to say that I know everything, all the different ramifications of saying certain things publicly. I don't know all the answers to that, and that's why I have to be careful 'cause I don't even know, I'll call it, you know, collateral damage effects, to use kind of a military term, what may happen if certain things in detail that are revealed that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to. So this is like a serious, this is not like a fun situation. This is like s- humanity changing, hopefully in a good way, but this is like, you know, uh, quite serious. And I, you know, risked my personal and professional life, and I, personal life because things have happened to me, uh, to be public like this. And, and you know, I swore an oath but, you know, myself and my generation, you know, wanna see a change.
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally?
- 1:15:00 – 1:25:43
Was there a concern…
- DGDavid Grusch
they certainly have their own trauma but it's this weird insidious, am I in a video game? Is this real trauma that intelligence professionals ... And I just wanted to highlight that during this show because that was just a near and dear to myself, uh, so people are aware of the service of military intelligence and civilian intelligence professionals that have to make really tough decisions for the country that, um, affect people's lives on the receiving end, you know. So ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Was there a concern while you're going through all this-
- DGDavid Grusch
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that if you didn't come out with this, that we would be stuck in this same sort of loop for a long, long period of time and no one would ever have access to this stuff? That they would continue ...
- DGDavid Grusch
Yep. Yeah, and that ... Y- you nailed it on the head, is, you know, I think my generation wants a change, the under-40 generation. Their parents went to war, their older brothers went to war, we're fighting two dangerous proxy wars right now, which is extremely, um, stupid. I don't even know a better way of saying it, to be quite frank. And, you know, I can give you my own assessment on that if you want. But, uh, like, we're in this loop, we're not progressing in a healthy way, uh, as a civilization. You know, it's becoming more divisive, whether you're on the left or the right, you know, people aren't even looking up. All they care about is TikTok, you know, we're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence. You know, I even saw that in my government service, and I think humanity's kinda stuck right now, and we need to change. And this subject is, like, one of the only unifying, ontologically shocking, but I would think generally unifying topics where, where if announced by, you know, the US and other, you know, major powers that have knowledge in a- in a controlled manner, that this could change humanity for the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive, and care maybe a little less about superficial things. So, uh, so that's kind of my philosophical motivation, uh, to do what I did. And, uh ...
- JRJoe Rogan
And you're confronted with one of the biggest mysteries-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in- in human history.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is, are we alone? And it seems like at least some people have the answer to that.
- DGDavid Grusch
100%. I mean, the people I talked to certainly did, and they had close, personal knowledge, and the intel reports I read, you know, literally (smacks lips) indicated that as well, like I talked about earlier. Uh, and it just ... So it's like this caste system, I call it dudes with SCI clearances do not have an embargo on reality. So, it's a caste system of, you know, people in government and outside of government and the industrial complex, that run this stuff under little oversight and, you know, I remember some of the people who denied us access, they were like, "You know, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, but if I did, why would you have a need to know?" And I'm like, "Well, why did you have a need to know? You're just some multi-star general."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. You're a human being.
- DGDavid Grusch
You're a human being. You're not better than me. I mean, who determines need to know on a sh- humanistic question, um, (clicks tongue) a- it's, like, basic fact of life. Why do you, why are we classifying fact of life, uh, at this day and age, in 2023? It's insane.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the answer to that would be national security.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah, it's obtuse national security, right? So, like, why we classify stuff, it's called Executive Order 13526, right? Section 1.4, Sections E and F are why we classify science stuff, why we classify nuclear stuff. It's like a one-liner, it's very vague, and, and, uh, are you saying this is- th- these basic facts should be classified? Are you saying that this fits in this bill? And, you know, and- and he noticed the Schumer Amendment, if anybody reads it, awkwardly calls out the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, right? (smacks lips) And they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off a, you know, nuclear radiation, 'cause if you look at the ultra-vague definition of special nuclear material, which is Section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, it says, "Anything that gives off a sizeable amount of atomic energy." Literally, that's what it says.Well, what's sizeable and what legal gymnastics are you saying this stuff, which is obviously not a ... well, who knows? Maybe it is (laughs) a nuclear weapon, and you're saying this is a US nuclear secret. You're transclassifying it into a nuclear secret, which I understand maybe at first why they did that. And I'm not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago when this was more of an enigma and we wanted to, like, lock it down, figure it out, and then see what we're going to do. But there's never been a disclosure plan. I, I always ask that, like, to the super senior people I talk to. "Was there a plan? Any kind of plan at all?" And they're like, "No, never. We tried to muddy the waters back and then, uh, you know, tried to put it out there and test the populous, but," um, you know, "there was never any cogent plan." I mean, people think the government is, like, this fine-oiled machine. They have plans for everything. Well, I guess sort of, but, like, it's not. I mean, look at the war on terrorism. We left, uh, Afghanistan. No general officer, Mattis, Petraeus, uh, McChrystal, I call them the failed generals. People laud them, but really, themselves and the Obama administration, Bush administration, except, you know, Trump, whatever, um, nobody had a cogent plan for success. And we were fighting people who were much less of an adversary than, like, our, one of our peers or near peers. We couldn't even win that war. Like, what the fuck are we doing? But these protracted, endless wars, let's be real. It's good for the industrial complex.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DGDavid Grusch
So, and, and I'm not, like, admonishing the whole industrial complex, for the record. You know, we need national lethality. We need weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in the world.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- DGDavid Grusch
But you've got to control, you know, some of it, though.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that's part of the-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... problem with people that have secrets.
- DGDavid Grusch
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like once you have secrets and part of your identity is the holder of those secrets-
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and part of the culture of these, these industries is that they, they are the ones that have the access to that.
- DGDavid Grusch
Yeah, and I saw that in conventional really black programs I was a part of in my career. It was almost like, um, you got that secret society vibe, where-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DGDavid Grusch
... it's like if you're a career government servant, uh, your salary's not that great, but knowledge is your currency and what makes you special. What rice bowl do you control? And I remember getting read into some stuff that, like, it was, like, the president and very limited number of people getting read into, and I was one of them 'cause I was operating a certain thing for a certain op, and, "Oh, you're part of the club," you know. Like, "Only 30 people are cleared," or whatever, and I'm like, "Who the f- I don't get off on this shit." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
Episode duration: 2:41:00
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