Joe Rogan Experience #2065 - David Grusch

Joe Rogan 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

David Grusch 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) What's up?

Joe Rogan 0:13 How are you, man?

David Grusch 0:13 Hey. Good, good.

Joe Rogan 0:15 Thanks for coming here. Appreciate it.

David Grusch 0:16 Y- yeah. (laughs) Yeah. No, it's, it's a pleasure.

Joe Rogan 0:18 You've been on a whirlwind sort of tour. Um, I guess we should start from the beginning.

David Grusch 0:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:26 So first of all, uh, lay out to people what your job was with the military and how this all started for you.

David Grusch 0:34 Yeah, yeah. So I was a Intel officer in the Air Force for 14 years, seven active, seven reserve. Uh, then I kind of had, like, a parallel track in the civilian intel world when I became a reservist. Um, (smacks lips) uh, and, uh, ultimately, I got brought back in in civil service in a government way at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency couple years ago, um, at a senior level. Uh, so I was a major in the Air Force and a GS-15 at NGA, which is, like, a full bird colonel equivalent civilian employee. Uh, you know, I'm very humbled that I was able to kind of get that kind of job. But, uh, my career, mostly, I didn't even really think about this topic. UFOs were not on my radar. I wasn't really a believer. I was agnostic about it. Uh, pre- most of my career, I did a lot of, uh, you know, behind the door special access program, uh, technical type activities. I was kind of a space intelligence expert, a cyber intel expert. And, uh, like I said, this was not on my radar at all. You know, like, I would joke with my buddies, 'cause I used to handle, um, the presidential daily brief for the National Reconnaissance Office director in my, my military capacity as a reservist. And I was well cleared to hundreds and hundreds of compartmented programs. And, you know, the joke was like, "When are we gonna get the read on for the crazy shit?" And that never happened. Uh, and, and I do remember the, the day that I really can remember that I was like, "Huh, what's with this UFO stuff?" I was, uh, briefing a senior person, uh, at the CIA into a couple hundred special access programs. Uh, so I was at the headquarters at the agency. And, you know, after the indoctrination I was giving to the senior person, this person, um, who worked with, uh, Lue Elizondo, uh, previously was like, "Yeah, have... Dave, have you ever heard of this guy, Lue Elizondo? He's running some UFO program at the Pentagon. Um, we all think he's crazy." And I'm like, "I, I don't know who this guy Lue Elizondo is, and I don't know of any kind of UFO program. So that sounds nuts to me." But lo and behold, and that was like early 2017, and lo and beholds in December 2017, that New York Times article came out with the, uh, that named the AATIP program and the AAWSAP program, so Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program and Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program being the other acronym. And I was like, "Holy shit. Wait, that's that guy Lue Elizondo that I heard about. Oh, you know what? I think I have heard of AAWSAP." When I was a lieutenant, I used to read these reports from the Defense Intelligence Agency on black holes and stuff, and I was like, "Huh, that's, like, stupid. Why is the DIA, um, looking into black holes, time warps?" It just didn't make any sense to me back in, like, '08, '09 when I was a lieutenant. And all of a sudden, I'm like, "Well, maybe there's something to this UFO thing." I'm not saying

David Grusch 3:36 I was, like, a believer either way on the subject, but this i- this was a topic of concern apparently for the Pentagon. And in 2018, I started doing kind of my, what I call my open source literature review. Like, "Let me spin myself up on this topic," watching Chris Mellon, Lue Elizondo, Leslie Kean, all these people talk about the subject and then, you know, just trying to understand, so what is this with UFOs? Has this been going on for a while? The answer is yes, like Foo Fighters, sightings of weird stuff in antiquity, et cetera, which, you know, we can get into later. But, uh, and so early 2019 comes along, and my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, in kind of my Air Force major capacity, forwarded me an email from the, what became a, uh, stood up in, like, I guess it was 2018, which was the unidentified, well it was aerial, now anonym- anonymous phenomena task force, UAP task force. So the UAP task force director sent my boss an email saying, "Hey, we're looking for a rep to the task force." And as, like any good officer, I was like, "Well, I'll put it on my performance report. Hey, I was on a task force," and, you know, that would look good. And I ha- being well cleared and also, uh, bachelor's degree in physics, uh, master's in intelligence analysis, I'm like, "You know what? I'll figure out what this shit is. It's either gonna be weather shit. Maybe it's an adversarial program. Maybe it's, like, uh, a US program people are misidentifying on rare occasions.

David Grusch 5:07 So fuck it, I'll, I'll go see where the data takes me." And, you know, early 2019 or so, I joined the UAP task force. Um, and then I started, you know, interviewing pilots, um, uh, flag officers, you know, general officer equivalent type Navy folks. And, you know, they were seeing some really crazy shit. And, uh, like a, you know, event that I talked about previously publicly in a YouTube video on, uh, the, uh, Yes Theory channel, you know, I... There was this one 30-year senior Navy officer that, you know, he was going to work sober, no predisposition for fantasy, all that kind of stuff, 'cause I interviewed the individual for a couple hours, and he saw this, you know, crazy triangle hover over his car going to work at a certain naval facility. And it, like, blew his mind. He was serious. Um, the paint on his car turned milky white after the incident. So that's, to me, that sounds like ionizing radiation. So like ultraviolet, just like how your-... your headlights get all foggy over time if you park your car out in the sun. Same phenomenon just happened, you know, within a 24-hour period. And I'm like, "Whoa. If this is true and the, the, the oral testimony and, you know, crazy radar data that I saw when I was in the taskforce, you know, stuff making turns that didn't make any sense, well, holy shit, what is this stuff then?"

Joe Rogan 6:34 This, um-

David Grusch 6:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:35 ... anomaly with his paint-

David Grusch 6:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:37 Wa- is this documented? Is there photographs, or-

David Grusch 6:39 Yes. I saw-

Joe Rogan 6:40 Yeah?

David Grusch 6:40 ... photographs. It was documented, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:41 And, uh, w- what ... Is there a conventional explanation?

David Grusch 6:46 I mean, based on what he described, uh, something to rapidly ionize his paint like that within a, a day? I don't ... I can't think of anything off the top of my head in terms of some conventional aerospace technology. And, and this was a certain facility in the continental US. This was not overseas. So, it's not like our adversary's flying some spooky thing, um, in US airspace.

Joe Rogan 7:11 So, this thing hovered over his car for how long?

David Grusch 7:15 Couple minutes while he was traveling at about 60 miles an hour or so. It was pacing his vehicle.

Joe Rogan 7:20 How far away from his vehicle?

David Grusch 7:22 Hmm. (sighs) It's probably a couple hundred feet in altitude. It was less than 1,000 feet-

Joe Rogan 7:28 Really?

David Grusch 7:28 ... which is also bad because from an airspace perspective, pilots would know this, anything under 1,000 feet, no, unless you get special clearance, and you only do that over controlled airspace, like a military test ranges, right?

Joe Rogan 7:41 Right.

David Grusch 7:41 Where people fly low and that kind of thing.

Joe Rogan 7:43 So, is, is he on ... What kind of a highway is he on?

David Grusch 7:46 A conventional civilian highway.

Joe Rogan 7:48 Civilian high- so anyone could have been on it.

David Grusch 7:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 7:50 It just happened to be this guy.

David Grusch 7:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:53 Um, did he have any other experiences with this thing?

David Grusch 7:57 No. It was ... This was, like, a once-in-a-lifetime thing. Um, he kept it to himself for a couple years, but then he, um, you know, the taskforce came out-

Joe Rogan 8:08 So, what was his name?

David Grusch 8:09 Uh, I don't ... Well, he's-

Joe Rogan 8:10 Okay.

David Grusch 8:10 That individual's still on active duty.

Joe Rogan 8:11 Let's call him Bob.

David Grusch 8:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:12 Did, but did anybody say to him, "Hey, Bob, what the fuck happened to your car?"

David Grusch 8:16 You know, that's a good question. I don't remember if, uh, people asked him about his car (laughs) . So, he took-

Joe Rogan 8:21 That's-

David Grusch 8:21 ... pride in his car, so it actually was probably more upsetting to him personally 'cause-

Joe Rogan 8:24 What kind of car was it?

David Grusch 8:25 It was, like, a Toyota or something, so ...

Joe Rogan 8:27 Okay.

David Grusch 8:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:28 So, all of a sudden, his Toyota's fucked.

David Grusch 8:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:30 So, it's ... Okay. And, um, so did he have to report this? Is this something that ...

David Grusch 8:37 He did not report it, to my knowledge, to anybody. It wasn't until he reported it to us about five years later that it, uh, it happened.

Joe Rogan 8:45 So, are tho- these kind of experiences something that a lot of these pilots are embarrassed about discussing or have apprehension about discussing because they could be ridiculed?

David Grusch 8:57 Mm-hmm. Yeah. A lot of people that are on flight status, they don't want to be sent to the psych, right? You know, there's a whole aerospace physiology kinda empire in the military, uh, that an- ... And, you know, if you're an operator or, you know, a guy, uh, missile, missile key-turner, you're on what they call a Personal Reliability Program, if you're taking, like, you know, Tylenol, you gotta report it. If you have a fever, you gotta report it 'cause you're, you know, in control of nuclear weapons when you're on duty, so ...

Joe Rogan 9:22 Right.

David Grusch 9:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:23 And so this idea of, uh, being predisposed to fantasy, that's also something that they, uh, sort of talk to these people about, or try to get a gauge of?

David Grusch 9:34 Yeah, yeah. These are people that are very sober-minded. I mean, this individual was early in the morning going to work, not under the influence of anything. And, uh, that person had a, you know, similar clearance as mine, you know, TS/SCI. So, you know, we've gone through-

Joe Rogan 9:48 TS ... What was that?

David Grusch 9:49 Uh, top secret, you know, since the Department of Information tr- clearance. And, you know, uh, just like myself, I've been through multiple polygraphs in my career, so did this individual, so, um, definitely-

Joe Rogan 10:00 Does he have any idea-

David Grusch 10:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:02 ... or any, uh, theories about why this thing was following him?

David Grusch 10:06 No. That's what freaked him out the most 'cause it, uh ... He didn't have any experience in his life like this. It, like, totally blew his mind when he looked out his moonroof and then looked out the side of his, uh, car door and saw this 300-foot triangle. Uh, it was, like, predawn sky, but it was darker than the predawn sky, and it had this, like, plasma edges. Like, it was, like, purple-ish, glowing edges, and these three lights that had, like, these omnidirectional, like, almost like pool lights?

Joe Rogan 10:36 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 10:36 You know how there's ... You can't really tell where the light source is? And it was totally trippy. And that, and that's just one example of many anecdotal, with some evidence, you know, pilot stories. Uh, and that's what made me dig deeper, and I started, you know, cultivating my network, like, "Has the government studied this before?" This wasn't just AAWSAP and AATIP and Blue Book and all this shit in the past, right? There's ... This seems serious, so, like, certainly the government has looked at this. And, you know, I went to search for that program, and that's what I ended up whistleblowing on, right?

Joe Rogan 11:08 So, when you ... What was ... How did you initially discover this program? And, like, what was your first encounter with the information?

David Grusch 11:17 A very senior individual in the intel community came to me when, uh, I guess I was asking a lot of questions 'cause I'm a very (laughs) inquisitive guy, and it was like, "Hey, we ... I need to introduce you to somebody." Uh, you know, he listed that certain person's academic credentials, which were beyond reproach, you know, PhD level education, clearance. Resume was insane. I'm like, "Well, okay, sure. I'll, I'll talk to this person." And, and I ended up meeting that person in a, you know, uh, uh, top secret facility and, you know, he started to discussing like, "Hey, there's a program. I was on it. And, you know, we were reverse engineering crash material that we've recovered over the decades, you know." And he's like, "I'm not joking," you know. "And, and, uh, we're, we're telling you because you're, you have to ... You guys have to report to the Deputy Secretary of Defense in Congress on this matter," right? "And we were, we were actively briefing, like, uh, Secretary Esper, Deputy Secretary Norquist, you know, um ..."... other cabinet level folks, right? Ands like, there's a, there, you know, there must ... There's an oversight issue because you're the UAP task force, you should be read into this stuff because, like, why spend the taxpayers', you know, dollars looking at stuff that we already have data on?

Joe Rogan 12:41 Right.

David Grusch 12:41 So that's... And that spooked me and that was like fall of 2019. And, you know, I don't take a guy's word for it. I'm like, "You know what?" Myself and my trusted colleagues that had a lot of, a lot of special accesses like me, you know, we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed about 40 people or so, all the way up to multi-star generals, directors of agencies, mid-level guys that literally touched it, worked inside of it, all the, the stuff. They brought intel reports for me to look at, you know, documents and, and a lot of that I could cross ve- verify with other oral sources that my high-level colleagues or I talked to. And, um, you know, it, it checked out. Especially when I had enough information on e- and, and I know wh- who specifically to ask, like, "Hey, well, I want read into this." Like, "I'm on the UAP task force," and we went to those, I'll call 'em gatekeepers for the lack of a better term, and they basically said fuck you to me and my colleagues.

Joe Rogan 13:48 Hmm. So why were these other people willing to discuss this with you?

David Grusch 13:54 Well, they determined I didn't need to know. I was already cleared at such a high level, handling presidential material and everything, it's like, "Dave needs to know," and they felt that coming to us, it was a form of a protected disclosure. They felt that they weren't really violating anything because, you know, we were the, I'll call it the investigatory body, uh, for the Department of Defense and the intelligence community and, and Con- Congress at the time. And they ... You know, you are allowed to, you know, disclose to a government official in an official capacity and I, you know, did that. And, you know, of course I protected those people and, and do know I took those people, a lot of them and I, and I brought them to the Intelligence Community Inspector General when I filed my complaint 'cause I don't want people to, you know, hear it from a secondhand source. You know, people call it hearsay, whatever, though I have some firsthand knowledge I eventually talk about someday, I'm trying to get it cleared, but through s- through security processes. Um, uh, so they could hear it and hear the details like, you know, who, what, when, where, why, where the shit is, who's in control of it, what are the cover programs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, uh, and that's what deemed my, my complaint credible and urgent in July 2022, uh, which is a s- ... So the ... My complaint, yes, was about reprisal too. I filed that separately eventually to the, the Department of Defense Inspector General, and that's an ongoing investigation, but my ... It was my congressional oversight, uh, UAP crash retrieval allegations that was deemed, uh, credible and urgent. It was sent to the Director of National Intelligence and then it was sent to the Congressional Intelligence Committees around that time, July of 2022. And I eventually went to Congress in December of 2022. And it's a crazy story why it took so long. It's fucking nuts. Um, but I provided total about 11 and a half to 12 hours of, uh, you know, classified testimony to the congressional staffers and their lawyers for both the House and the Senate. And I, I went, you know, full open kimono. I mean, I told them as much as I could within my time slot, if you will, so.

Joe Rogan 16:08 So this is obviously very compartmentalized where-

David Grusch 16:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 16:13 ... there's only a few people that know about this information and they're not allowed to discuss it with other people.

David Grusch 16:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:20 When did this all start? I mean, is this-

David Grusch 16:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:24 ... out of Roswell? Is it predate that? Like, when, when did they first realize that there are things that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means?

David Grusch 16:35 Yeah, I mean, the program goes back a ways. The precise, mm, beginning of it I can't talk about, but I did ... Because of security stuff. But I did talk about, uh, publicly the 1933 retrieval and I did that, uh, tactically and I ran that through the Security Approval Office because I wanted it to show that this is much older and it's international. It's not like a US thing. I mean, th- this stuff is landing or crashing around the world and unexpected countries have had this happen, and that's why I picked that 'cause I thought that was a interesting case. And then of course the, you know, Pope Pius XII and the Vatican were involved back channeling it through the OSS, which became the CIA later, to FDR and that's how the US knew something weird happened in Italy during ... Well, right before World War II, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:26 So this is '33-

David Grusch 17:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:28 ... was the first, like, documented?

David Grusch 17:31 Uh, (laughs) I can't ... That is the earliest one I can talk about. Yeah. There's a-

Joe Rogan 17:35 Something that predates that?

David Grusch 17:38 My ... You could infer that.

Joe Rogan 17:39 You could infer that?

David Grusch 17:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:40 So this '33 one you said was in Italy?

David Grusch 17:43 Yeah, Magenta. So it's, uh ... I'm bad at geography. I think that's like Lombardy region. It's like northern, northwest Italy.

Joe Rogan 17:50 And what's the story behind it?

David Grusch 17:53 So, um, basically it, it, it looked like it crashed, right? I- Uh, the original shape most likely was like a lenticular disc-like craft, you know, with like, uh, two dinner plates-

Joe Rogan 18:05 What does lenticular mean?

David Grusch 18:06 So like two dinner plates, you know, smooshed together, right?

Joe Rogan 18:09 Okay.

David Grusch 18:10 A hump. And there's like a, you know, like a bubble on top of it.

Joe Rogan 18:12 The classic flying saucer.

David Grusch 18:13 Classic like, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:14 Flying saucer.

David Grusch 18:14 Like that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:15 Like that. Okay.

David Grusch 18:16 But it looks like when it hits, the edges broke off, so it became this like bell or acorn shaped thing.... um, and there was nothing in it. It was, like, just an artifact. You know, there was no biological remnants, if you will. Um, so it's so funny because the Italians were so confused, they actually called up the Germans and they were like, "Is this one of your Wunderwaffe? Like, what the hell just crashed in northern Italy?" Mussolini, um, and this is all publicly available information, 'cause some Italian researchers, um, found all these original documents that some people were sitting on for years in Italy. Uh, you know, they put a gag, a gag order on the press, et cetera. And, and yeah, Mussolini asked the Germans to come down. Of course, the Germans came down and they were like, "Uh, that is not ours, but let's look at it together." So, that's kind of, uh, perhaps a tertiary reason the, kinda, axis powers got together. I'm not saying that's, like, the reason. But I think the Italians and the Germans were so intrigued with what they found from, like, an artifact perspective, there was at least some scientific and military, uh, collaboration during the war. The details of which, uh, I'm not, I'm not sure of. But I know people that know that specific event that are currently still intel officers within this program, uh, in detail. But, you know, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:40 So was there witnesses to the crash or some sort of an understanding that something had crash landed and then they discovered it?

David Grusch 19:47 Yeah. I, I forget the precise discovery, uh, I don't know if it was, like, local police officers or local farmers found it in the field, something like that. I, I don't wanna misspeak. Um, I assume some of the Italian researchers might have some fact witnesses that could orally say, "Oh, yeah. My great, my great-grandfather found it," or something like that. But I don't remember off the top of my head.

Joe Rogan 20:08 What was the scale of this vehicle?

David Grusch 20:10 Uh, it was probably like, like t- 20 feet by 10 feet. Something like that. Not super huge, but kinda big.

Joe Rogan 20:17 Do they think that this was a drone? Do they think that this was occupied?

David Grusch 20:21 There was nothing in it, so if it wa- if it was, uh, piloted, if you will, by some sentience, I mean, your, your guess is as good as mine, so...

Joe Rogan 20:31 Hmm. So, what happened to that vehicle?

David Grusch 20:35 So, we knew where it was being stored at a, a particular location, um, after the crash. And then the military came in and we, we grabbed it towards the end of the war, you know, 1944, 1945. Because, like I said, Pope Pius XII already kinda let, uh, FDR know.

Joe Rogan 20:54 Why'd the pope get involved? 'Cause it's in Italy?

David Grusch 20:57 Well, well, interestingly enough, there's, like, a whole history of human intelligence prior to World War II and, uh, old money, the Vatican, the Italian mob, um, kind of the old country boys did a lot of informal intelligence collection, uh, for the US. And, and there's probably some books you can read on it. But it's really interesting. You know, human intelligence collection wasn't really formalized until the Offic- Office of Strategic Services, the OSS, which became the CIA in 1947, um, had, um, you know, Paul Mellon and all these other affluent guys, all these old money families that basically created the CIA. So, that's probably what the reason why.

Joe Rogan 21:41 So, this thing that was recovered, this was the first documented one that the United States had access to?

David Grusch 21:51 I can't get into-

Joe Rogan 21:52 Okay.

David Grusch 21:52 ... if it was the first or not, but-

Joe Rogan 21:53 Okay.

David Grusch 21:53 ... it was an early one.

Joe Rogan 21:54 Very early.

David Grusch 21:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:55 So, it's almost 100 years ago.

David Grusch 21:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:57 And so they take this thing and then they bring it where?

David Grusch 22:01 (laughs) Uh, yeah, I can't, I can't get into those details now.

Joe Rogan 22:03 Can't, can't get into that.

David Grusch 22:04 No.

Joe Rogan 22:04 Okay, so they bring it somewhere in the-

David Grusch 22:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:06 ... United States. And, uh, was the attempt to try to back engineer this thing? Was the attempt-

David Grusch 22:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:13 ... to try to understand what it was?

David Grusch 22:16 Yeah. I mean, first of it, obviously, it's understanding the situation, right? What do we have our hands on? And, and like I've said in some other videos and stuff, you know, they took the Manhattan Project secrecy and overlaid it on this issue because that secrecy worked well for atomic bomb developments and whatnot. And, and certainly this whole program in a nutshell, if I were to summarize the 90 plus years of history, it is a reverse engineering program to garner some kind of insight. Uh, and of course not a lot of the things that we've learned from it are, like, directly, you know, ripped off the technology we found, but it has inspired other innovations that made its way into other US classified programs over the year for national defense reasons. You know, and it's a myriad of different things, so...

Joe Rogan 23:07 I- the UFO folklore is that this is where fiber optics were discovered first.

David Grusch 23:13 Yeah. I'm not gonna break the seal on anything we've discovered or anything like that. And (laughs) yeah, it's-

Joe Rogan 23:19 How-

David Grusch 23:19 ... place I can't go to, yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:19 How limited are you-

David Grusch 23:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:20 ... in what you can discuss and what you can't discuss, and why?

David Grusch 23:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:24 Why do they let you discuss any of this?

David Grusch 23:26 Yeah. So, anything sensitive that I wanna say as it relates to, like, US government activity, whether it be intelligence stuff, military stuff, et cetera, I have to submit it through what they call DOPSR, DOD Office of Pre-publication and Security Review. That is something anybody who's been an intel officer, anybody with, like, a clearance has to submit that kind of stuff. Now, obviously if you're writing a book about gardening you don't have to. But if you're gonna talk about anything military and intelligence related you have to submit. So, it's kind of a Catch-22 for this office, right? They're only looking at it from a security perspective. They're not vouching for it or anything like that. And that's like any author, right? They could write a, a book about Navy SEALs and they're not vouching for the story. They're vouching that you didn't say any nasty code words, you didn't burn a specific ongoing classified program. And for them, I mean, I'm not in their OODA loop, but certainly it's a Catch-22 for them where if they want to redact and they propose a redaction, they're like, "Hey Dave, you can't say these sentences. You can rewrite it and resubmit." You know, "We can't necessarily tell you what agency said to redact it, but you're not allowed to say this."... uh, they would be basically self-certifying there's a there there. So, in my opinion, probably the policy is like if it has to deal with the subject, we're not saying anything, we're not proposing any redactions. As, as long as he's not burning a conventional program, uh, we kinda have to allow him to exercise his First Amendment rights. And I, so I think it's like a Catch-22 for that office, is kind of the long or the short of the long answer, so.

Joe Rogan 25:06 So, this is essentially one of the very early ones, 1933.

David Grusch 25:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:11 How many crash retrieval incidents have there been?

David Grusch 25:16 It is double-digit, uh, the s- specific numbers I do know. However, I can't discuss that. And I know it sounds like, oh, I'm being coy or whatever, but, you know, this show, any other interviews I do, right, you know, foreign intelligence services are watching. And it's like, I'm not here to help Russia and China calibrate their intelligence collection, like, "Oh, Dave said it's this number. We missed a couple. Shit."

Joe Rogan 25:43 Right.

David Grusch 25:43 "Let's put it out for the KGB, SVR, and GRU are now gonna hit the streets to try to figure out which ones they missed."

Joe Rogan 25:49 Right.

David Grusch 25:49 So I'm, I'm here to protect national security, and I'm just trying to put all the general topics out there for public conversation to hold our government accountable, really.

Joe Rogan 26:00 Hm.

David Grusch 26:00 So... 'Cause I'm, I'm here as a fact witness 'cause we have a, you know, a constitutional oversight issue because this program has not been, you know, reported to Congress in the appropriate way, you know? And I can get into a senator I talked to that has died recently, so I can, you know, explain to ya why I'm so sure, besides what I read, which we can get into the what intel port- reports

David Grusch 26:31 I read. I did get some stuff cleared. Um, so during my investigation, I'm like, "You know what? I need to talk to somebody at the highest levels," right? So, and this'll give you an idea of the kind of people we talked to, and this is the only one I'm gonna talk about using their name because they died two years ago, so... In spring 2021, I actually flew with a couple colleagues of mine to Las Vegas, and I met with Senator Harry Reid about nine months before he died. And of course, he's a private citizen now, and I wanted to brief him on the topic, and I wanted to get his kind of thought leadership on it 'cause, you know, he was a Gang of Eight member, right, you know, which is the top most cleared senators and congressmen. He was the majority leader, for God's sake, so the Senate. And I knew, you know, he helped sponsor the AAOSAP program that I mentioned and, you know, where they looked at Skinwalker Ranch and some other things. And I wanted to understand, like, what does Harry Reid actually know? Like, why did he, you know, give $21 million to DIA and Bigelow Aerospace for this? So I'm sitting there in Harry Reid's living room, you know, right next to him with some other witnesses that were there with me, and he straight up says, he's like, "Yeah, I knew we had UFO material. I was denied access for decades. I tried to get access," and then he explained some of his efforts during AAOSAP, uh, and I was like, "Holy shit, did the m- did the former majority leader just say, did he just confirm this to me as well?" You know, I was already talking to these amazing high-level people, but I have Harry Reid literally saying, "Yes, we have material," and, you know, he knew it was non-human.

Joe Rogan 28:17 Did Harry Reid have personal experience with this?

David Grusch 28:20 I don't know if he's had any personal stuff in his personal life.

Joe Rogan 28:23 I mean, did he see it? Did he- did he witness?

David Grusch 28:24 He said in terms of seeing the material himself, he said he was denied access for years, uh, decades was his term, and he actually told me on behalf of me, he was going... So he had like a weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time, and he straight up said to me he was gonna talk to President Biden about this issue, literally. And then, uh, what he was telling me about AAOSAP, um, I was like, "Holy shit, I have like 20 other people that told me this dude." So, the real history what fucking AAOSAP was 'cause I think there's a lot of people out there that think well, they were looking at ghosts, Skinwalker Ranch. Yes, they went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective, but the real, uh, reason... So like there's a document that came out a couple years ago through FOIA from the Defense Intelligence Agency. There was this special access program request that Harry Reid, you might have seen this, I think, like, George Knapp and company have reported on this, that he sent to the Deputy Secretary of Defense William Lynn, and it was asking for one of the most serious SAPs you can ask for, what they call a bigoted waived special access program. So waived means it's limited congressional reporting, um, that is a class of special access programs, and bigoted means it's, like, by name. And it's like, it was like, uh, you could read the FOIA document. It was like, you know, Harry Reid, James Inhofe, uh, Lou Elizondo, et cetera. And I'm like, "Why are you asking for the most serious SAP to be created for a program that ostensibly is looking at Skinwalker Ranch and stuff? And it doesn't make any sense." So what really happened there, and, uh, you know, Harry Mead- Harry Reid, God bless his soul, made this disclosure, um, a couple weeks after we met, uh, in The New Yorker. And you can look this up. I think it was, like, a May 2021 New Yorker story where he says, "I knew for decades..." And he made this disclosure, not me, so I'm gonna say the name of the contractor. (laughs) Harry Reid said this. Uh, you know, "We knew that Lockheed Martin had this material for decades. I tried to get access, and I was denied," and specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff, he was talking about during the AAOSAP program.And for the people who are on this program, I submitted this shit to the officer, got this cleared, so don't freak out, but I'm telling the truth here. Um, so Lockheed Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me, that I provided to the inspector general, um, like street address, all that shit, right? And the idea was, if they made a catcher's mitt, a security catcher's mitt for this shit at, uh, you know, most serious sap possible, the contractor and the other government customer, which was the Central Intelligence Agency, um, for that specific Lockheed material, and it was shit that they recovered from, like, the '50s and stuff. And it was, like, bits and pieces of- of- of- of, like, hull structure, shit like that. And, um, uh, so they were gonna tech transfer it, and the $21 or $22 million was actually for Bigelow Aerospace to build out, you know, facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment. And I've s- I have- I saw the staff meeting slides. I saw the paperwork. Like, there's a f- paperwork trail I've seen on this shit, and I talked to the people involved in this program. And, you know, even Jim Lacatski, who ran the program, uh, who's a re- retired DIA officer, PhD in engineering, even made this disclosure in his book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, uh, page 152 to 153. And he also made a disclosure a couple weeks ago, I think it was on Weaponize podcast with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, where he's like, "Yeah, we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained access." And he ran that through the same, you know, security process as I did. And so Jim Lacatski, who ran this program, is also going on the record that he is aware, uh, personally aware of intact vehicles and everything, but, uh, long-

Joe Rogan 32:45 So they gained access?

David Grusch 32:46 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 32:46 What does that mean? And- and by what method-

David Grusch 32:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:48 ... did they gain access?

David Grusch 32:49 The way he wrote it in his book, I can only infer it sounded forcib- forcible. So through some kind of, you know, means, I don't know if it was, like, CO2 laser or something. I don't actually know how they gained access, but imagine it was, uh, not permissive access. They, like, broke into the damn thing.

Joe Rogan 33:06 So this thing-

David Grusch 33:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:07 ... is essentially, uh, sealed and it's-

David Grusch 33:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:11 ... some sort of, uh... What was the shape of this thing?

David Grusch 33:14 Uh, he- Lacatski didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle, it- as far as I recollect.

Joe Rogan 33:19 It- it's... What about the dimensions?

David Grusch 33:21 N- I don't believe he did in his book, uh, but I think it's, like, chapter 11 in his new book or something. I glanced at it. But he did make that disclosure on video as well, and I do encourage both the AARO office, which is the DoD's UAP Task Force successor, and Congress to ask Dr. James Lacatski to come in for classified testimony, because the disclosure in his one book that he wrote with Colm Kelleher, George Knapp, and in the second book, well, the guy's saying he has close personal knowledge, he needs to go to Congress. So I- you know, I- I don't know James Lacatski, but I do encourage him to be a FAC witness. Uh, but going back to that transfer with Lockheed, long story short, can't get into all the nuanced details, but basically, the CIA, uh, said fuck you to DIA and Lockheed, and it was totally killed. So Harry Reid's request to get the material transferred to the AAOSAP program was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff. So they used that money, and then they, you know, they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents, the DIRDs, as a lot of people who's familiar with a- a- listening will know about. And then they did look at Skinwalker Ranch because they thought that studying kind of the more woo-woo phenomenon aspects of this... And I've never been to the ranch, so I've never experienced the ranch for myself, but, you know, obviously, I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff, or at least allege that. Um, they thought that they would be able to gain currency with the- with "the program," you know, in- in this case, CIA, to unlock the key for the Lockheed Martin stuff. Uh, which actually, I'll tell you right now, it's, like, so weird to say that, but I- I ran that shit through security. Um, yet to me it's like an out-of-body experience to talk about that kind of, uh, detailed sensitivity, uh, stuff like that. But- but basically they studied the ranch to gain favor, to be like, "Hey, look at all this stuff we're figuring out, this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch." But ultimately, they never gained favor with the government customer, and then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon. So that's kind of the long but short of it with the AAOSAP program that, you know, I wanted to make sure the public knew it's not what you think it was. There was some other stuff behind the scenes that, you know, I wanted to speak truth to power on.

Joe Rogan 35:56 So this, uh, particular vehicle that they had recovered from the 1950s, what- what was the source of it? Where did they find it?

David Grusch 36:05 Uh, those details, uh, I did not get cleared, so-

Joe Rogan 36:10 Okay.

David Grusch 36:11 ... yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:11 So they have in possession this thing, they gain access to this thing, and what do they report once they've gained access to it?

David Grusch 36:18 Oh, those details I- I do not know. That's a- that's probably a question for Dr. Lacatski. Um, I presume he knows those details. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 36:27 So this thing is housed somewhere?

David Grusch 36:32 It is, yes.

Joe Rogan 36:32 Currently?

David Grusch 36:35 It may still be in the same location that I know about, yes.

Joe Rogan 36:38 And how many people have access to this, and how did they prevent this information from being released?

David Grusch 36:47 I mean, a l- you know, it goes back to the compartmentation and kind of the ecosystem of secrecy in this community, right? You know, only a limited amount of people, you know, at least at the time, you know, on Lockheed Martin's side...And, and Lockheed Martin was complaining basically like, "Look, like, the secrecy's ridiculous. We can't even bring the right engineers." Like, imagine you're like a hot engineer... oh, (laughs) hot engineer. No. Hotshot engineer. You might be hot too, I don't know. But, (laughs) , that, you know, you're fresh outta grad school, maybe you're like the best PhD electrical engineer, you wanna do cool shit, you wanna publish in IEEE, you wanna like, you know, climb the ladder corporately, you know, and that kinda thing. A Lockheed Martin executive comes to you, "Yeah, dude, uh, you're gonna... I can read you into something really crazy, but you're never gonna publish papers on it, you're never gonna be able to tell people what you worked on, and it's probably not the most career-enhancing. But if you wanna work on something cool, but I can't tell you 'cause it's unacknowledged until you sign this piece of paper, nondisclosure agreement, um, uh, uh, you know, sorry, but here's the raw deal." And, you know, a lot of people are like, "Fuck you, no." And, and it's not like Lockheed Martin could broadcast this to universities, like, "Come work for us-"

Joe Rogan 38:07 Right.

David Grusch 38:08 "... you'll work on crazy shit." A- and, but that is very akin to a lotta other black programs in the government that are unacknowledged in nature. You don't know what you're signing up for until you get brought in. And I've, you know, I've been briefed to a lotta that kinda conventional stuff in my career.

Joe Rogan 38:24 So, one, that's one of the, the problems that Bob Lazar... And I'd love to get your take on Bob Lazar. One of, one of the things that he talked about was that science can't really operate in a vacuum.

David Grusch 38:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:36 When you separate the metallurgists from the propulsions experts from the biological experts, like... And they're not allowed to communicate with each other, and they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have different-

David Grusch 38:47 Well, that was the frustration that, um... I had some friends that I've known my entire career, like almost 14 years, right? I literally know them personally, um, I had a relationship with them. But they ended up, you know, spilling the beans where, you know, "Look, we're, we're on the program, I'm an engineer for X, Y, and Z. We can't even cross talk across, like, the cubicles, for God sakes." Like, I can't... I'm looking at material X, doing some, um, X-ray diffraction testing on it, which is like shooting a stream of electrons and seeing how it, how it bends and, and looking at the atomic arrangements. I can't even, like, cross talk that with another aspect of the program. This is, like, ridiculous. And, and that's kind of their frustration. Um, yeah, I knew you were probably gonna ask me about Bob Lazar. I know, I, I figure, I figured as much. Um-

Joe Rogan 39:36 Why did they do that-

David Grusch 39:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:37 ... though, if everybody was already sworn to secrecy, everybody already has NDAs? It seems the most effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining an understanding of how these things are structured.

David Grusch 39:47 Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was, right? People working on the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was going to a nuclear weapon. And so... And I've seen this kind of compartmentation, this obtuse secrecy in other programs, and it is debilitating for progress. And honestly, as a fiduci- former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the best modus operandus to do it that way. And very few people kinda had that top-down, could look across the silos and see what was going on. It just became very dysfunctional, and they were afraid of people being too cross-briefed into the different silos for counterespionage, counterintelligence-

Joe Rogan 40:26 Right.

David Grusch 40:27 ... uh, that... You know, they were... Y- gotta remember, a bulk of this program was done during the Cold War, and, you know, we were afraid of Russian spies, Soviet moles, and so we made it ultra locked down, but to the detriment of national security. And that was one of the crazy things that got me, that I wanted to whistleblow on, 'cause I'm like, "This is so stupid." Like-

Joe Rogan 40:47 Right.

David Grusch 40:47 ... we should be making more progress on this.

Joe Rogan 40:49 Were there any-

David Grusch 40:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:50 ... breaches that you're aware of, where foreign agents were able to gain access to materials or an understanding of what we know?

David Grusch 40:59 So, I'll tell you about some intel documents I read that kind of obliquely answers that question. So, uh, there were sensitive human-derived foreign intelligence that I read, um, 'cause I had access to kind of the AATIP, OSAP, uh, classified archives, and I was like thumbing through everything, and there was... Some other people were bringing me documents to evaluate. And I'll never forget, I had, um, I want to say stolen by the US, uh, intelligence ass- assessment from a certain foreign adversary discussing the US reverse engineering program. And I was like... And that was actually another like, "What the fuck?" And, and so I had an adversary also confirm this program literally because of exfiltrated intelligence. And so they certainly had a limited knowledge, at least fact of, that the US had a program like this, a particular adversary. And actually, I was like, "Well, I want more." Like, eh- I know who wrote this, liter- or who got it, right, uh, on behalf of the United States government. So I went to that certain agency through the, uh, approved and official way, and this is kinda part of the myriads reprisals against me. Uh, the agency was like, "Oh, yes, we have what you're looking for, Dave. Um, you're gonna need to sign a one-time read-in to something, you know, come visit us to, you know, go to the vault and read it, right, you know, hard copy."

Joe Rogan 42:27 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 42:28 "Uh, but yes, we have what you're looking for." And ultimately, uh, from what I was told by friends in higher places, my request kinda went up the flagpole at that agency. And all of a sudden, the agency ghosted my boss and I for like two months. And then when I really pressed them hard to gain access, 'cause I'm like, "I have a need to know. I need to evaluate this intelligence for fucking Congress." And they debriefed me-... uh, from all my accesses over in that other sister agency, and made up some bogus excuse, like I shouldn't have been briefed anything in the first place, literally. And basically gave me an administrative mid- middle finger, like persona non grata, don't ever fucking ask us about that shit again. And I, and I, I, I'm sure the person who made the oops, that told me they had what I was looking for, probably got admonished and slapped on the wrist, 'cause I never heard from that person again, even though it was somebody I actually used to work on occasion with. So, uh, that was also another way I knew, um, I was, uh, uh, you know, there was a lot of smoke and fire because I, you know, had stuff like that happen to me.

Joe Rogan 43:42 So this ... k- but knowing that, f- our adversaries were aware of this reverse engineering program, are we aware of their reverse engineering-

David Grusch 43:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:56 ... programs?

David Grusch 43:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:57 H- which, uh, countries have-

David Grusch 43:58 Uh, you could-

Joe Rogan 44:00 Some.

David Grusch 44:00 ... you could probably guess.

Joe Rogan 44:01 Okay. Yeah, the big ones.

David Grusch 44:02 And, and you wouldn't be, uh, it won't be too shocking.

Joe Rogan 44:04 Yeah. Okay.

David Grusch 44:04 But I won't acknowledge what the US may know.

Joe Rogan 44:06 Right.

David Grusch 44:08 So ...

Joe Rogan 44:08 So, are we aware of numbers in terms of like a, at least a rough estimate-

David Grusch 44:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:13 ... of how many are available to these other ...

David Grusch 44:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:18 How many?

David Grusch 44:18 Uh, can't g- that, that's like super sensitive.

Joe Rogan 44:20 But there's more than one?

David Grusch 44:21 Yeah. (laughs) You could read into that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:23 I could read into that.

David Grusch 44:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:24 And has anyone made any progress?

David Grusch 44:28 Yeah, I can't get into if we've made progress, if they've made progress, 'cause that's like straight up some national security stuff. But like, I want the, uh, just to be clear, I want the US populous to learn a lot of this, and this is why, you know, another reason why I went public is like, I need to call everybody out. I'm not here to admonish the entire government, mind you, but there is an element of the US government and its cleared defense contractor base that, you know, we have a three branch government oversight issue, like going back to Harry Reid. Harry Reid didn't even get access, and I fucking talked to him myself to con- confirm that. And he said he was gonna go talk to Biden. Um, 'cause I think there needs to be a disclosure plan. This goes back to what's currently in legislation right now that's super fucking important. Um, because 90 some, 90 some odd percent of this should, should be open for public discovery, public, um, analysis in academia. This should be like, at very least, true nuclear programs such as nuclear physics, you study in university. Nuclear weapons, classified, because that makes people in the pink mist. That's really sensitive. We don't need everybody to know how to do that. So, I think the stuff that is like legit weapons-related stuff, that's like straight up national superiority stuff, sure. Reasonably classify that, but, but this, these programs, we need a change. And that's why you saw the Schumer Amendment, right? And I think you might've read that on air or something in a previous episode if I remember correctly. You know, Chuck Schumer ... And I knew about the amendment a couple months before I went public, and that's kind of another reason why I did what I did. I'm like, "Fuck, I'm like the only guy that kinda has the opportunity to do this." I know what's in the chute, so to speak-

Joe Rogan 46:24 (coughs)

David Grusch 46:24 ... that Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer Amendment, which is 67 pages of literal, "We want to disclose." And I'm like, "I have to spike the football by going public," because, you know, I can read the tea leaves on the Hill, and I think they were hesitant to do anything, uh, without being able to point to something publicly. And I'm like, "I'll be that fucking guy and just send it." Um, and, and then of course a month after I went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge, and I do know he talked to the White House about the amendment too, 'cause it's not like Chuck Schumer's gonna propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the national security advisor or president. Like, I imagine he did so. And, you know, so you have this 67-page am- amendment, right? It's called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023, known as the Schumer Amendment. Co-sponsors were Young, Gillibrand, Rubio, uh, Rounds-

Joe Rogan 47:26 (sniffs)

David Grusch 47:26 ... yeah, and Young. And, you know, kudos for those senators for stepping up to the plate, 'cause they know this is real. I know what meetings they've had with certain other individuals that are, you know, even more credible than myself. And so this, this act, which is like super important, is currently in conference as we speak, in Capitol Hill, so the amendment is wrapped in something called the Fiscal Year 2024 National Defense Authorization Act. So that is the act that funds the military basically every year, right? So it's an amendment within this bill. And, uh, the act is really long, but the main meat of it is about halfway through the act. It talks about a presidential panel or agency, which is nine person, and a controlled UAP disclosure plan that's six years in length, conceivably from 2024 to 2030. And this panel ... And you can read this. This is public law. Anybody can read this. They want scientists, economists, you know, uh, you know, uh, sociologists, et cetera. It's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president, and this whole bill was actually built off the JFK Records Act, which I know, like they're like, "Well, they never released all the records." Well, we put some teeth in the bill, some eminent domain, some other stuff, the, you know, kind of force the issue. Now granted, the chief executive, the president has the final say. The panel can't compel the executive to do it, but like, I hope the president does, and I support that.But- so the Senate already passed it. They're chill with this. This is like, "We're- we're good to go." And- and- but there's pushback in the House right now that is, you know, pardon my language, fucking ridiculous. So they're saying, for one, it's duplicating the DoD AARO office activities. They're doing good things. They're looking at UAP reports, trying to figure out what's balloons and air trash and what's weird stuff. And of course, they are doing an historical review to try to understand the US's history on this too. But the problem is, with that agency, it- it's within the DoDNIC, not above. So you have an issue reaching into Department of Energy, other, you know, cabinet-level agencies. You need a presidential-level panel that can declassify stuff, reach into other agencies, and tell, you know, certain secretaries, "We're coming in. We want your stuff under presidential authority." So what's happening in the House, from what I'm told from people on the Hill that are working the issue right now, you have the- the chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking this, uh, from Ohio, Dayton, Ohio area, Wright-Patt. Weird.

Joe Rogan 50:15 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 50:16 And-

Joe Rogan 50:16 Wright-Patt meaning Wright-Patterson Air Force.

David Grusch 50:18 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:18 Yeah.

David Grusch 50:19 Yeah. And, uh, Mike Rogers, which I'm kind of surprised, uh, from Alabama, who's the chair of the House Armed Services Committee. So I have a problem with Mike and Mike right now. So Mike Turner... Now, remember, I went to his committee in December of last year. Uh, he wasn't there, but his staff and lawyers were. And of course, he goes on Fox Business after the hearing, doesn't use my name. He's like, "This whistleblower, he has no idea what he's talking about." I'm like, "Really? Tell me, Mike, have you ever been an intel officer or served in the military? Oh, wait, you've been the amer- the mayor of Dayton, Ohio. You were voted most corrupt person in Congress a couple, uh, years ago. And, uh, pull up his PAC donors. Who are his biggest donors? Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing. Okay. So, uh, and first of all, if you thought that you needed more information or wanted to talk to me personally, why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee?" So, uh, and furthermore, besides blocking the bill, I'm sure you're familiar with, like, Representative Tim Burchett of Alabama, and he's been very outspoken on the issue. And we- we may not agree with everything Tim says about conventional stuff. That's, you know, here nor there. But, you know, he's been a champion on the Oversight Committee, and he was, you know, one of the members that I testified in public under oath regarding this. So like, uh... And Mike Turner is looking to fund, according to staffers I've talked to, uh, last two weeks, an opposition candidate for Tim's reelection in 2024. So why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the Oversight Committee? And why are you blocking a bill, and it's not gonna cost much, couple million a year max, you know, for the panel, which is like vaporware in US government-speak, right? Um, uh, if there's nothing to see here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the House blocking this bill that is, in my opinion, the most important legislation for in- transparency in American history? If there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy, multi-star generals I talk to are crazy, the intel docs that I read are incorrect, they're fucking forgeries or passage material or something like that, good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some consorted, uh, operation against me and my colleagues, that it would be totally crazy to even conduct that, 'cause I took precautions, then why don't we just pass this and see what happens?

Joe Rogan 52:57 And why, what do you think the answer to that is?

David Grusch 53:00 Special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle, even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube, and I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want change. And I'm not here to be s- like, some total adversary. I- I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process on this issue. I'm not here to throw people in jail. I'm not here for big contractors involved to lose money. I think this is- would be a boon, and I think the leadership in these companies need to think about this, where if we're more open with this, you can hire people. You can push the subject into undergraduate, graduates, and postdoctoral programs of, uh, you know, research to study this in an unclassified... Just like nuclear physics. And this answers a fundamental question, uh, you know, for humanity. Are we alone, or, you know, what happens when we die? Well, I don't know about that, but are we alone? Well, the answer is, we're not alone, and I know that with 100% certainty, which as an intel officer, you never say 100%. But th- all things pointed towards, uh, based on the people I talked to, like Harry Reid, and I use him as an example, but I talk to the highest of the high people you could possibly talk to, if you catch my drift. So-

Joe Rogan 54:21 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 54:23 Unless all them are lying and they're covering up something else, which I don't even know what it would be at this point, because the phenomenon is real. It's been going on for thousands of years. People have been seeing strange things, and not everybody's mass hallucinating. So that's kind of my long diatribe about what's happening, so.

Joe Rogan 54:40 What do they think these things are? The people that you talk to.

David Grusch 54:43 Yeah. So they, specifically the people on the program that handle the material, that were in executive-level briefings with intel community leaders and other folks over the years, last 20 years or so, they did use the term extraterrestrial, ET or whatever.Okay. That isn't a possible origin. But the Schumer Amendment, if you read it, it specifically uses non-human intelligence, NHI, very deliberately because we wanna catch everything. Because what if some of this stuff is not ET and they're going to use it as an escape clause. Like, "Well, this stuff, that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial, so this doesn't apply." So, that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible. I mean, besides ET, I mean, a lot of it would be my own, uh, personal opinion. I think we have a couple conceivable buckets, and I'm using the work of Jacques Vallée, other people that have thought deeply on the issue, on how the phenomenon has changed since an- antiquity. It showed its- showed itself in a different way. Like, a good example is like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with p- p- you know, uh, paralysis in medieval and enlightenment area- you know, era, became this alien abduction phenomenon, uh, in the modern area. Er, uh, era, excuse me. And is it, is it the- the recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing the phenomenon based on a modern interpretation? You know, inside out. Or is the phenomenon ... This is like Jacques Vallée's book, Passport to Mag- Magnolia. Magnolia, I can never pronounce it right, 1969 where he talks about the phenomenon seems to, like, masquerade itself as different stuff over the years, but, you know, we've seen roughly the same stuff. If you look at the Foo Fighters of World War II. Uh, there are declassified Air Force OSI reports from the '50s, you- people can Google the talk about flying butane tanks with the same measurements approximately what we saw in the 2004 Tic Tac incident, but they called it flying propane or, you know, butane tanks in the '50s. So, uh, from a morphology, or in the Air Force intel we call it vis recce, visual reconnaissance, like, they basically look the same and we can back azimuth that, you know, decades if not hundreds of years in the past, you know, Wheels of Ezekiel, right? They're seeing these, like, disc-type objects, right? And unless Ezekiel is, uh, tripping or this is an allegory or fable in the, in the Bible, you know, let's say the event happens. Just like the- in the Vedic texts, you have the battles. The blue people in the, uh, battles, uh, in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons. Like, what's going on there? I mean, maybe that's a Graham Hancock or Randall Carlson type thing. They could- they know more than I. So, there is a real phenomenon that, uh, origin undetermined, but it- it's trippy and sometimes it presents itself in, like, a non-corporeal form too. You know, orbs, balls of energy, uh, you know, they- that- they don't appear as, like, some kind of bipedal hominid like some people have expoused. So, I think that might be, call it interdimensional, call it shadow biome, crypto terrest- I mean, there's a lot of different theories. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:13 What are the primary theor- the primary theories are from another planet or-

David Grusch 58:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:18 ... from another dimension?

David Grusch 58:19 I think those are the primary. I mean, there's certainly origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're just- our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand and, you know, our IQs are only so high. So, there might be some origins that we don't understand.

Joe Rogan 58:35 In terms of, like, interdimensional travel?

David Grusch 58:38 Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, if you talk to mainstream physicists they say, like, crossing dimensions physically is kind of a trope of sci-fi, and, you know, I- that's why I used an example and I know some physicists don't like me talking about this theory, but it is a theory. You know, like, so the holographic principle which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole, which is a distance away from the singularity of a black hole where if you cross it, you're fucked. 'Cause you're gonna get ripped to shreds or you're not coming back. And, uh, that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space. And the easiest example is, like, us casting a shadow on a sidewalk, right? Three-dimensional object, 2D shadow on a sidewalk. If you lived in two-dimensional space, Flatland, you'd be tripped out. "What the fuck am I seeing?" But they just don't know that it's really just a person in higher dimensional space. So, as some of the- I mean, obviously we have physical material that's in three-dimensional space that we've recovered, but at least maybe some of the phenomenon is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but is either being projected or quasi-projected into our 3D plus time space, which is really trippy to think about, but we literally do it on a day-to-day basis, like casting shadows. So, and that might be some of what we're seeing too, but, I mean, I presume we know more. The people I talked to did not, uh, espouse they had full knowledge either. Like I said, the- the- the normal colloquialism was to say ET or extraterrestrial. So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:23 Could you dumb down-

David Grusch 1:00:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:24 ... this concept of interdimensional?

David Grusch 1:00:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 Like, what ... I know in physics they have theorized that there are multiple dimensions other than those that we can currently detect.

David Grusch 1:00:37 Yeah. And a lot of that is based off of, like, Lorentz ... This is my bachelor's degree talking.

Joe Rogan 1:00:42 Okay.

David Grusch 1:00:42 I know there's gonna be, like, some physicist who has a PhD who's like, "Oh, Dave, you fucked that up." But-

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 Right.

David Grusch 1:00:47 But basically, you know, from high energy particle collisions and based on the deflection angles and all the stuff what happens when the particles collide, you know, uh, confirm certain theoretical frameworks about extra spatial dimensions and, you know, I can't speak, uh, with any real authority on, you know, precisely how that works, but a lot of-... um, you know, whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics or based off of higher spacial dimensions. And, um, you know, so that is a mainstream physics, uh, theoretical framework. That's not like wacky or loony or anything like that, so. Uh, but that's basically, uh, a possibility. But like I said, like, we don't really have a good theory if you, if you work, if you lived in like 5D space, for example, it's almost like, um ... Remember the ending of the movie Interstellar, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:41 Yes.

David Grusch 1:01:41 Where, where he's pushin' the books.

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:01:44 He's like in a tesseract, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:01:45 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:01:45 ... which is like a four to five D structure, but he's trying to interact with 3D space. And of course he like leaves that space to come back to his daughter many years later at the end of, ending of the movie. Great movie. But, um, so, uh, that's a way to conceptualize it in something you may have watched in film. It's kinda like the ending of Inter- Interstellar.

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:02:05 Oh yeah, yeah there you go.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 This is, this is ...

David Grusch 1:02:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:09 Which is based on what? Like what theory?

David Grusch 1:02:13 So the physicist Kip Thorne was the very famous guy. He was a big black hole and wormhole guy. I think it's Caltech or somewhere in California. Kip Thorne actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing, uh, black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly in the movie. We saw like the, the halo around the black hole, uh, when they were comin' in with the ship and everything. That's actually based off of real physics models that, uh, Kip Thorne did the calculations for, which is pretty cool actually that Christopher Nolan took it to that level, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 So this idea that these beings or whatever you wanna call them, exist in some other dimension, do we have ... I mean, I don't know what you can say about this. Do we have an understanding? Do we have any sort of communication with these beings that give us some sort of an understanding or a map of this?

David Grusch 1:03:15 Yeah, the interaction stuff, uh, that's a sensitive area. Um, there are multiple very senior people that were concerned about talking about that kinda stuff with me. Uh, I mean that is certainly, as nuts as it sounds, that was a real subject of conversation, even if it sounds like somethin' out of like Star Trek: First Contact, you know.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 But it doesn't if you have vehicles.

David Grusch 1:03:36 Well, yeah. So it's, it's like once you realize the phenomenon's real, then you realize we've recovered artifacts and, you know, biologics or, you know, dead pilots if you will, even though it's, you know, kind of creepy to even think about that in your world view, you don't think they were ever, you know, alive sometimes too? Right? And I'll, you know, I'll leave it at that only because a- you know, that is something, you know, the, the president and his cabinet needed to disclose this in a controlled manner going back to that amendment. You know, I'm not here to, uh, you know, push the subject in an improper way, and that sounds like, "Why don't you just do it, Dave?" I'm like, "There's a lot of secondary and tertiary ramifications, socioeconomically, theologically, um, our relationship geopolitically with our allies and adversaries. This is not, uh, rip off the Band-Aid and it's simple." There, there's a, there's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen and that's why I'm, I'm laying out all the general stuff that needs to be talked about-

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:04:43 ... during the disclosure process. But I should not be the one disclosing and it would be highly inappropriate 'cause I care about the health of the United States and its people and national security for me to do so. So I know there's people that are like, "Well, oh, why doesn't Dave say X, Y and Z?" It's like this is serious. This is not like ha ha, let me tell you a good story. I'm a serious guy. I ruined my fucking career doing this. I was gonna make lieutenant colonel in the Air Force in, this winter. I was on track to be, you know, a flag officer equivalent civilian, uh, in my career. Uh, I spent 18 years in uniform, uh, if you count the cadet time, right? Uh, my whole adult life was serving as an Intel officer. But I wanted to see ch- and I'm 36, right? Older millennial. I wanted to see change, so I'm throwin' the flag out and I'm here to hold the government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough because I don't begin to say that I know everything, all the different ramifications of saying certain things publicly. I don't know all the answers to that, and that's why I have to be careful 'cause I don't even know, I'll call it, you know, collateral damage effects, to use kind of a military term, what may happen if certain things in detail that are revealed that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to. So this is like a serious, this is not like a fun situation. This is like s- humanity changing, hopefully in a good way, but this is like, you know, uh, quite serious. And I, you know, risked my personal and professional life, and I, personal life because things have happened to me, uh, to be public like this. And, and you know, I swore an oath but, you know, myself and my generation, you know, wanna see a change.

Joe Rogan 1:06:36 Can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally?

David Grusch 1:06:38 Yeah, so, uh, a lot of the stuff I have to be purposely vague 'cause there's an open inspector general reprisal investigation on my behalf, and I'm not here to compromise the investigation by tipping off my antibodies that may be watching right now. But, you know, when I really started looking into this, I mean they came after me so hard to try to revoke my clearance, um, ruin my career, kicked me out of my agency, and they accused me of everything you could possibly think of with like no evidence. Uh, for example-At first they, they wanted to say, "Oh, Dave, uh, you have mental health stuff you didn't report to us. We're concerned 'cause we y- we think you might have an ongoing mental health issue." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan in my military service several years ago, and I sought help for that. Like, I, I'm not ashamed of that. You know, I'm high functioning autistic and, and I didn't know that until my early 30s. And, and how I process trauma, I didn't really, uh, understand until many years later. And, you know, I sought help for that, and they were trying to say that, like, I had some secret mental health problem that I haven't been reporting to. So, I had to go through this whole process. Three agencies at the same time investigated me for that, which I don't even know if that's, like, legal. They tried to say that I, like, mishandled classified... All this other stuff. It was insane. Apparently, I was under criminal investigation for a couple months and I didn't even know that, and nor did they interview me. But they made a, uh, finding with no evidence they tried to use against me that I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain my employment and my clearance, which I did, for the record. I maintained my clearance. I resigned with full accesses. You know, I'm just debriefed now, but I maintained my top secret eligibility, and I left of my own accord. And, and so, and of course, uh, they ruined o- one of my boss's careers in another agency. They walked him out of the building and revoked his clearance and terminated him as a show of force after they were going after me. And, um, I feel sorry for that certain individual. And they came after coworkers of mine. I can't get into who, what, when, where and why to protect their identities and their own process. But- So, that's what happened to me professionally, and then w- what happened to me personally was very disturbing. Um, so I have to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation, but I think you'll understand what I'm saying, is, uh, they showed my wife and I they can touch me at any time, two times. And it was very disturbing. It was in conjunction with some other people getting a message like that, that are, I'm gonna say publicly well-known. Some that are- aren't publicly well-known. And of course, I immediately reported that to, you know, counterintelligence, federal law enforcement local to me, 'cause it, you know, wasn't criminal, but it was like a "fuck you" to me, like ...

Joe Rogan 1:09:55 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:09:56 And this was right before I filed my whistleblower complaint. Now, I don't know who did this. A, you know, en- entity who did X, Y and Z to my wife and I, identity unknown, but it fucking happens, and I, you know, provided that documentation to a couple special agents, and I just knew that it was getting serious. And, you know, as... Well, first of all, I'm the kind of person, I'm, I'm from Pittsburgh, you know, like, Steel Town, I'll take shit from people. And I decided, fuck it, I'm gonna file an inspector general complaint to protect myself. I don't, I'm in fear for my safety, you know. My wife's an Air Force veteran too, and, you know, very strong individual. But, you know, as a man, you don't wanna put your family at risk. And, you know, did certain other measures which I won't talk about to protect myself, uh, you know, physically. And I could not believe that that was happening to me. No kidding. And I knew I needed to do something internally, and then when I saw the writing on the wall, uh, earlier this year, and of course I knew about the Schumer Amendment, like I mentioned earlier, and I knew, I'm like, "You know, I, I gotta do this for my own protection." Because me leaving the federal service, 'cause I resigned my Air Force commission, I totally threw that career away, um, to do what I thought was the right and patriotic thing, to whistleblow on this. You know? And I s- you know, swore my oath 18 years ago, and that sounds hokey, but I believe, you know, integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do. That's the Air Force motto. And I'm like, I, this is not gonna help me personally. Like, love talking to you, um, I like spreading this message 'cause it's the right and ethical thing to do, but this is a nightmare for me. I don't wanna be public. I've served the country in clandestine and covert operations for 14 years. I've done technical intelligence for some of the most high profile takedowns in US history. I shouldn't even be here. But I am, because I wanna see change, I saw something unethical and unmoral, I wanna make sure I hold that element of the government accountable, and it was the right fucking thing to do. And, and I get kind of emotional about that, because, you know, my career's been service and sacrifice, and, you know, I had two friends of mine die, and I've talked about this publicly before, and I, uh, you know, I'm seguing a little bit, but the, the suffering of the American intelligence officer is something that, for their service to their country, and I'm not talking about this subject, obviously. People don't realize the kind of trauma, uh, intel professionals go through. So, first of all, I had a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan, his name's Captain Dave Lyon, there's a park in Peterson Space Force Base named after him. (sighs) I remember seeing his coffin come off the plane and stuff, so... Um, you know, I saw him die. That, that fucked me up for a number of years, and that's what, you know, gave me a lot of my, my problems that I ended up dealing with. But then I had, um, I remarried, uh, and then my best man, uh, Captain Ben Heine, uh, Air Force intelligence officer, Air Force Special Operations Command, I've known him for years, he's my closest friend, you know, best man at my wedding, and then 28 days later...... uh, unfortunately he suffered from depression and it was, you know, he... As his best friend, he didn't even confide in me. You know, I remember chit-chatting him, chit-chatting with him on the phone one day about 28 days after he was my best man, and I... He didn't tell me anything was wrong with him and a few hours later he walked in his backyard and shot himself. And, you know, I gave his eulogy, um, at his, at his, um, (clicks tongue) at his funeral, and that really, uh, you know, really affected me. And, and, and with what Ben experienced, uh, which I can't get into all the stuff he did obviously, but imagine, uh, being the guy that decides that that person is bad, fire the hellfire. That person is now pink mist, th- they're dead, you just played God, let's go back to, you know, the wife and kids at the end of your shift. And a lot of that, I, you know, I did the same kind of thing, I did a lot of stuff overseas that involved interrogations and, (smacks lips) you know, ops that w- you had to decide if a target is bad enough where you're gonna affect their life forever, and their family's life forever. And, uh, and that's the silent suffering of intel professionals especially during the global war on terror, which was, you know, 21 years or so, and, um, you know, uh, the- the trauma and the mental health problems that people (clicks tongue) get from being an intel professional in operational environment. People think, like, special operators, pilots, et cetera, you know, gr- Army, Marines, ground-pounders, and, uh, they certainly have their own trauma but it's this weird insidious, am I in a video game? Is this real trauma that intelligence professionals ... And I just wanted to highlight that during this show because that was just a near and dear to myself, uh, so people are aware of the service of military intelligence and civilian intelligence professionals that have to make really tough decisions for the country that, um, affect people's lives on the receiving end, you know. So ...

Joe Rogan 1:15:30 Was there a concern while you're going through all this-

David Grusch 1:15:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:15:33 ... that if you didn't come out with this, that we would be stuck in this same sort of loop for a long, long period of time and no one would ever have access to this stuff? That they would continue ...

David Grusch 1:15:45 Yep. Yeah, and that ... Y- you nailed it on the head, is, you know, I think my generation wants a change, the under-40 generation. Their parents went to war, their older brothers went to war, we're fighting two dangerous proxy wars right now, which is extremely, um, stupid. I don't even know a better way of saying it, to be quite frank. And, you know, I can give you my own assessment on that if you want. But, uh, like, we're in this loop, we're not progressing in a healthy way, uh, as a civilization. You know, it's becoming more divisive, whether you're on the left or the right, you know, people aren't even looking up. All they care about is TikTok, you know, we're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence. You know, I even saw that in my government service, and I think humanity's kinda stuck right now, and we need to change. And this subject is, like, one of the only unifying, ontologically shocking, but I would think generally unifying topics where, where if announced by, you know, the US and other, you know, major powers that have knowledge in a- in a controlled manner, that this could change humanity for the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive, and care maybe a little less about superficial things. So, uh, so that's kind of my philosophical motivation, uh, to do what I did. And, uh ...

Joe Rogan 1:17:11 And you're confronted with one of the biggest mysteries-

David Grusch 1:17:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:13 ... in- in human history.

David Grusch 1:17:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:15 Which is, are we alone? And it seems like at least some people have the answer to that.

David Grusch 1:17:21 100%. I mean, the people I talked to certainly did, and they had close, personal knowledge, and the intel reports I read, you know, literally (smacks lips) indicated that as well, like I talked about earlier. Uh, and it just ... So it's like this caste system, I call it dudes with SCI clearances do not have an embargo on reality. So, it's a caste system of, you know, people in government and outside of government and the industrial complex, that run this stuff under little oversight and, you know, I remember some of the people who denied us access, they were like, "You know, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, but if I did, why would you have a need to know?" And I'm like, "Well, why did you have a need to know? You're just some multi-star general."

Joe Rogan 1:18:08 Right. You're a human being.

David Grusch 1:18:08 You're a human being. You're not better than me. I mean, who determines need to know on a sh- humanistic question, um, (clicks tongue) a- it's, like, basic fact of life. Why do you, why are we classifying fact of life, uh, at this day and age, in 2023? It's insane.

Joe Rogan 1:18:26 And the answer to that would be national security.

David Grusch 1:18:31 Yeah, it's obtuse national security, right? So, like, why we classify stuff, it's called Executive Order 13526, right? Section 1.4, Sections E and F are why we classify science stuff, why we classify nuclear stuff. It's like a one-liner, it's very vague, and, and, uh, are you saying this is- th- these basic facts should be classified? Are you saying that this fits in this bill? And, you know, and- and he noticed the Schumer Amendment, if anybody reads it, awkwardly calls out the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, right? (smacks lips) And they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off a, you know, nuclear radiation, 'cause if you look at the ultra-vague definition of special nuclear material, which is Section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, it says, "Anything that gives off a sizeable amount of atomic energy." Literally, that's what it says.Well, what's sizeable and what legal gymnastics are you saying this stuff, which is obviously not a ... well, who knows? Maybe it is (laughs) a nuclear weapon, and you're saying this is a US nuclear secret. You're transclassifying it into a nuclear secret, which I understand maybe at first why they did that. And I'm not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago when this was more of an enigma and we wanted to, like, lock it down, figure it out, and then see what we're going to do. But there's never been a disclosure plan. I, I always ask that, like, to the super senior people I talk to. "Was there a plan? Any kind of plan at all?" And they're like, "No, never. We tried to muddy the waters back and then, uh, you know, tried to put it out there and test the populous, but," um, you know, "there was never any cogent plan." I mean, people think the government is, like, this fine-oiled machine. They have plans for everything. Well, I guess sort of, but, like, it's not. I mean, look at the war on terrorism. We left, uh, Afghanistan. No general officer, Mattis, Petraeus, uh, McChrystal, I call them the failed generals. People laud them, but really, themselves and the Obama administration, Bush administration, except, you know, Trump, whatever, um, nobody had a cogent plan for success. And we were fighting people who were much less of an adversary than, like, our, one of our peers or near peers. We couldn't even win that war. Like, what the fuck are we doing? But these protracted, endless wars, let's be real. It's good for the industrial complex.

Joe Rogan 1:21:11 Right.

David Grusch 1:21:12 So, and, and I'm not, like, admonishing the whole industrial complex, for the record. You know, we need national lethality. We need weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in the world.

Joe Rogan 1:21:22 Sure.

David Grusch 1:21:22 But you've got to control, you know, some of it, though.

Joe Rogan 1:21:27 Well, that's part of the-

David Grusch 1:21:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:27 ... problem with people that have secrets.

David Grusch 1:21:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:21:30 It's like once you have secrets and part of your identity is the holder of those secrets-

David Grusch 1:21:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:21:36 ... and part of the culture of these, these industries is that they, they are the ones that have the access to that.

David Grusch 1:21:45 Yeah, and I saw that in conventional really black programs I was a part of in my career. It was almost like, um, you got that secret society vibe, where-

Joe Rogan 1:21:56 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:21:56 ... it's like if you're a career government servant, uh, your salary's not that great, but knowledge is your currency and what makes you special. What rice bowl do you control? And I remember getting read into some stuff that, like, it was, like, the president and very limited number of people getting read into, and I was one of them 'cause I was operating a certain thing for a certain op, and, "Oh, you're part of the club," you know. Like, "Only 30 people are cleared," or whatever, and I'm like, "Who the f- I don't get off on this shit." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:22:27 Right.

David Grusch 1:22:27 It's just so weird, but, like, these, like, lifers, and I, I hate to, you know, talk so matter-of-fact about it, but, like, it just ... It's kind of disgusting to me because it's like this, like, uh, it's weird. It's just, like, a weird, like, gnostic, cultish thing.

Joe Rogan 1:22:41 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:22:41 And, you know, I lived that community for 14 years of my career, so-

Joe Rogan 1:22:45 And people really do enjoy having information that other people don't have access to.

David Grusch 1:22:49 I was like, "I got a secret," and, like-

Joe Rogan 1:22:51 Yeah.

David Grusch 1:22:52 ... that's why I whistleblowed. Okay, so I know this shit's real. I know they're, we're not alone. We have stuff. No shit. Am I gonna sit on my ass for 30, 40 years? I'm an old man. I look back, like, "Ah, I had that secret. I knew about it, but I didn't do anything. I didn't-"

Joe Rogan 1:23:08 Right.

David Grusch 1:23:08 "... change." So, I couldn't just keep that secret because I thought it was just perverse and wrong that the people don't even at least get to know the basics.

Joe Rogan 1:23:19 Right.

David Grusch 1:23:19 It's insane.

Joe Rogan 1:23:20 So, when it comes to these, um, I'm gonna bring it back to these, these actual entities.

David Grusch 1:23:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:26 Do we know or we do have an understanding of how many of them we're talking about and the variety of them?

David Grusch 1:23:33 Well, yeah, there is a variety, and we have a certain n- number of them (laughs) , of different things.

Joe Rogan 1:23:39 Mm-hmm.

David Grusch 1:23:39 Um, but the, like, total numbers of, like, what's interacting with us on Earth, I mean, nobody knows that. And, I mean, uh, that-

Joe Rogan 1:23:46 But there's an understanding-

David Grusch 1:23:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23:47 ... of some that they do believe are interacting with us, and there's a variety-

David Grusch 1:23:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:23:51 ... in terms of there's, there's variables.

David Grusch 1:23:53 Yeah, I, I talked to people who are familiar with, uh, the biological analysis and everything. So, we have some idea, not a complete picture because it's like, you know, you know, you're looking at it. It's like, "Well, I don't even understand the physio- physiology at all." It's like, "What the heck?" It's, like, way different, right? So, um, we have at least a-

Joe Rogan 1:24:13 Is there a description of this physiology?

David Grusch 1:24:15 Yeah. No, I was in, I was in the room when, uh ... Hmm, got to be careful. I don't want to ... Uh, I was in Washington DC with a very, uh, number of senior people that work for members of Congress, put it that way, um, when I was still in government, and I brought the people who worked on that stuff to the Hill. I mean, this is why the members were so confident to put out the Schumer amendment and stuff. And, and I was like, "Please explain." And, um, they went into all those details and stuff, and I remember, you know, (laughs) some, some of the professional staff members were like, "Whoa." Like, (laughs) like, they were, like, in G-lock,