Skip to content
The Joe Rogan ExperienceThe Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #2069 - Dr. Shawn Baker

Dr. Shawn Baker is a physician, athlete, author of "The Carnivore Diet," host of "The Dr. Shawn Baker Podcast," and co-founder of online medical clinic Revero. https://carnivore.diet/shawn-baker-links/

Dr. Shawn BakerguestJoe RoganhostGuestguest
Jun 27, 20242h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:12

    Intro

    1. SB

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. SB

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

  2. 0:12 – 1:57

    Eight years carnivore: feeling better, skepticism, and why the conversation matters

    1. JR

      You good? And we're on.

    2. SB

      Awesome.

    3. JR

      What's up, Sean? Good to see you.

    4. SB

      Well, uh, good to be back, Joe. Thanks for-

    5. JR

      You're still alive. You've been eating nothing but meat, and you're still alive.

    6. SB

      (laughs) I am still alive, yeah.

    7. JR

      Fucking doubters be gone. (laughs)

    8. SB

      Yeah, yeah. Hey, Joe, before we get started, I just wanna say thank you for, one, for the stem cell stuff, but also for, you know, just, just having the conversations that other people are not willing to have. And, you know, we've... I've seen where they try to cancel you and all the BS, and, and, you know, you didn't have to do that. But you, you know, let other people have discussions who are not being censored, so just in case other people have... I'm sure you've been told that before, but-

    9. JR

      Well, thank you.

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      I appreciate that. It's a, uh, it, it's a weird time, man. It's-

    12. SB

      It really is.

    13. JR

      It's... First of all, it's a weird time that a guy like me has a show.

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. JR

      Which is bizarre that this kind of, you know, that I'm a source of information in some sort of strange way, because that's certainly not what I set out to do. Just along the line, I, you know, I'm curious. I wanted to talk to people, you know, including you and, uh, this diet. And, you know, I tell people I, uh, I'm not strict with, uh, my carnivore diet. Like Saturday night, I had sushi, but I'll tell you, I felt like shit afterwards. (laughs) I ate a ton of it. I ate so much. I'm a glutton, but, uh, all that rice, I was like, "Oh." It just makes me realize, like how much better I feel when I only eat carnivore, when I, when I just eat mostly meat, I feel so much better. I mean, uh, maybe it's anecdotal. Maybe it's just me and you, maybe, a- and, and many other people that do it, but there's something to it. But you're an extreme example because you have been doing it now for how many years?

    16. SB

      So, I'm starting my eighth year, so just, just, uh-

    17. JR

      Eighth year.

    18. SB

      Yeah. So when I came to see you last time, it was almost, it was six years ago. So I had, I had been... just finished seven years now. So yeah, it's been a while.

  3. 1:57 – 4:33

    Hospital friction, license battle, and building Revero for “root-cause healthcare”

    1. JR

      And people should know that you're l- you're actually a doctor. You're an orthopedic surgeon, and you didn't, didn't at one point in time they took your license away because you were providing medical information, but you got it back?

    2. SB

      Yeah, it was kind of an interesting thing. So when I was, I was practicing medicine, busy orthopedic surgeon, you know, plugging away, doing a thing. And then I started realizing, "Hey, I can have people avoid surgery by changing their diet," and their pain went away. And I was like, "You don't need surgery." Well, that is not what hospitals want you to do. They want you to, you know, keep the, keep the, the engines turning, so to speak. And so I, you know, said, "Hey, look, I wanna practice some lifestyle stuff." And that ended up, you know, uh, leading to a long battle with myself and the hospital. The hospital basically suspended my privileges and went to the state. The state said, "Hey, you can fight this," um, y- you know, in, in our, in our sort of state medical board situation, "or you can get independently evaluated." And I said, "Well, let me just get independently evaluated 'cause I don't, I don't, I don't see eye to eye with the hospital." And so that was done. It was like right at the time when I saw you a couple days before, and they came back and said, "There's nothing wrong with you. Go back to work." And so I got that, I got that, and then I had to, you know, reapply to the board, reapply for a license. They r- r- granted my license, and I've renewed it three times since then. So I'm a licensed medical, you know, l- licensed doctor, you know? Uh, but I just... You know, right now, I'm not actually actively practicing because I got frustrated with the medical system. I think our healthcare system has some serious, serious problems, you know, some serious conflicts of interest, some serious... I think the, the incentives for providing what I think is appropriate healthcare is, is misaligned. And so, you know, over the last few years, so we set up a company. It's called Revero, and we're, we're licensed in all 50 states. We have physicians all across the country, and we're basically set up to provide what I call actual healthcare, root cause medicine, get people off the medications, actually, you know, try and fix their d- d- their disease and not just medicate everybody 'cause we have such a s- system where everybody's just like, you know, you go to the doctor, you know, "Here's your diagnosis, here's your drugs. Keep... Stay on them the rest of your life," which I think is the wrong-

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... the wrong course.

    5. JR

      Yeah, I couldn't agree more. What, what, what's the name of the company again?

    6. SB

      So the company's called Revero, R-E-V-E-R-O.

    7. JR

      Okay.

    8. SB

      And so we raised a bunch of money from, from crowdfunding and also a bunch of venture capitalists. And so, uh, we've been, we've been basically building that. We've got thousands of people that are basically on the waiting list. We launch in a couple weeks. And so, uh, you know, so like I said, it's gonna be something that I think will provide healthcare as it should be. You know, instead of, like I said, instead of the, just the symptom management, putting Band-Aids on stuff, actually getting people healthy 'cause I think a l- a lot of diseases are, are reversible, and we've seen that all the time. You know, we see that pretty frequently.

  4. 4:33 – 7:41

    Carnivore as a therapeutic tool: global anecdotes and Harvard’s 2,000-person survey

    1. JR

      Well, that's one of the most fascinating things about this carnivore diet, is how many, albeit anecdotal stories, you have of people that had all these different conditions, chronic pain, rheumatoid arthritis, chronic fatigue, all these different issues, skin issues, eczema, all these different things that they were treating with medication, it wasn't working. They were experiencing side effects. They start eliminating everything from their diet except for meat, and all of a sudden, these problems go away. I mean, there's too many of those stories for it to be ignored.

    2. SB

      Yeah, it's, it's... I've been astounded by the number of, number of, you know, just crazy, crazy things that have happened. And, and again, it's not... You know, it's not that, you know, that is the, the most profound, rigorous type of, type of science that you can do, but it's, it... You can't ignore it at this point. There are literally probably hundreds of thousands of people now who've tried it. I go all over the... I've been all over the world now talking about this, and I get people from Germany and Greece and, you know, China and Japan and Africa that have all done this and they all say the same thing. "Look, I was sick, and now I'm not sick anymore." And so whether or not that is, you know, enough evidence to say this is, you know, a, a good treatment, you know, I can't say that, but you can't deny it's happening. And I'm... I've been trying to get research done. In fact, there was a study done out of Harvard University two years ago. I don't know if you saw that. So, uh, there's a guy named David Ludwig who was a senior author. And David, I've talked to him. He is the most ethical s-... You know, just like, he does not want any money from industry. He refuses to take anything. He's like, "I wanna make sure I do pure science."And they did a study and they looked at 2,000 people on a carnivore diet, and basically what they saw was, like 95% of the people, significant improvement across the board. Now, uh, the thing that was interesting to me is the diabetics. We had like 225 diabetics in that population. 92% of them came off all their insulin. These are all type two's, you know, so-

    3. JR

      That's insane.

    4. SB

      ... so that's- that's- you know, 100% came off all these other injectable drugs, his GLP-1 receptor agonists, which we've heard so much about lately, you know, the Ozempics and things like that.

    5. JR

      Semaglutide.

    6. SB

      Semaglutide, right. Came off, uh, something called a PCSK9 inhibitor. No, sorry, the SGLT2 inhibitors. Uh, 84% came off their metformin. So it's just like, this is c- clearly a, uh, at least it- at the very least, a therapeutic tool. And that's how I push this. I don't tell ... Like, y- you know, I wrote a book on this. I didn't say, "Humans are carnivores." I said, "Humans are opportunistic omnivores." If we were- if we were living in the Middle Ages and we came across- we're out hunting mammoths and all of a sudden, you know, the Ice Age is route, and we came across like, a twee full of- tree full of Twinkies. I mean, we'd probably go, "Ah, shit, I'm gonna eat that."

    7. JR

      (laughs)

    8. SB

      You know? We'd try it, right? We'd eat it, right? Because you know we would.

    9. JR

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      But I mean, it's ... And- and, you know, there's people- there's obviously people that eat plants that aren't dead and are doing okay, so we're omnivores. But from a disease, you know, mitigation standpoint, I mean, a ther- a therapeutic carnivore diet is tremendously effective. I mean, it's one of the more effective things I've seen across the board. And so, at the very least, you know, you'd say, "Let's explore that aspect of it." Because, you know, like I said, there's people that are suffering, and we've got so many people ... I know we- we're- I mean, when you talk about vegan, carnivore, all the- you know, everything in between, but I think at the

  5. 7:41 – 12:27

    Ultra-processed foods, satiety, and the money loop between food and pharma

    1. SB

      end of the day, it's everybody's eating processed garbage. I mean, we're eat-

    2. JR

      Yes.

    3. SB

      ... we're just eating bullshit. I mean, and- and that is really one of the problems. And the- and the one thing, and you said this, Joe, when you eat just meat, you're like, "I don't want that other bullshit."

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      'Cause you're- you're s- you're actually satiated. And this is the thing that's, I think, problematic. Because if you look at ... Actually, there was a study that just came out now, looking at, um, the financial incentive for ultra-processed food. Why do we have this stuff? So you look at the big, uh, asset management groups. You know, you've got BlackRock, you've got Vanguard, you've got, uh, State Street, uh, and Capital. And I can't remember the full names on these, but- but those guys collectively own s- huge portions of Nestle, Pes- PepsiCo, all these other processed food companies. And they also have- they also have significant shares in pharmaceutical manufacturers. So you basically ... You sicken the population by feeding them garbage, and then you just- you- you- you profit on their- on their disease. And I think that's what's going on. And I think it's really unfortunate, you know. And I think, you know, some people make an argument, you know, is a- is a net- is there a net benefit from feeding more people versus how many people are getting sick? And I think there's a point where, you know, the line goes, you know, if- if s- if ev- most people are getting sick from this and only a few people are benefiting, then you've- you've kind of crossed that line of, you know, does it- does it- is it for the greater good? And then, it becomes into the realm of almost evil, in my be- in my mind.

    6. JR

      Well, I think it started out with just trying to make money.

    7. SB

      Sure, sure.

    8. JR

      I mean, that's- that's what started out with the processed foods. And I think then they realize, "Well, now you're- you're selling more medication to these people, so you make more money on top of that more money." I don't even think it's a conspiracy. I think it's just opportunity. I think they just look at profits, and that's what these corporations are established for. The- their bottom line is they're supposed to make as much money as they can for their shareholders.

    9. SB

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      That's their responsibility. Their responsibility is to m- have like, a cute cartoon guy that sells you sugary cereal. Because, you know, when I was a kid, that's what I wanted. I want Cocoa Puffs.

    11. SB

      Right, yeah.

    12. JR

      I wanted Captain Crunch.

    13. SB

      Franken- Frank- Frankenberry.

    14. JR

      All that stuff.

    15. SB

      (laughs)

    16. JR

      Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why all that garbage is like ... It's so addictive, it's so delicious, you know, and it's, uh, clearly targeted for young people.

    17. SB

      Yeah.

    18. JR

      Clearly.

    19. SB

      I mean, that paper that I- that I talked about, and I think I- I ... You know, it's in that list that I gave Jamie, but, um ... It basically says this is the whole thing. They- they make tremendous short-term profits for their- for their shareholders, and- and that's why they do it.

    20. JR

      Yeah.

    21. SB

      So i- yeah, it's clearly financially driven. You can't blame them. I mean, this is what any business wants.

    22. JR

      Exactly.

    23. SB

      They just want to be successful.

    24. JR

      Exactly.

    25. SB

      So it's about making money like everything else, really.

    26. JR

      Yeah, that's what they do. I think the cutting the bullshit out is the biggest factor in this whole carnivore diet thing. I really do. I mean, I- I- I definitely think there's- there's ... Obviously, meat itself, regardless of the bullshit and the propaganda, meat is the most nutrient-dense food you can eat. All this crap where they say that meat causes cancer, if meat caused cancer, most people would have cancer. 95-plus percent of the population on Earth eats meat. And all this propaganda you hear about, you know, "You're gonna get cancer. You're- you're gonna- diseases are gonna go," all these different things, it does not seem to be the case in people that just eat meat. When you're looking at ... My experience, I have not ... And again, anecdotal. I've never met anybody that went on this diet that didn't have a positive result. Everybody that I know that goes on this diet ... Now, clearly, there's g- genetic differences. Some people have a p- well, definitely there's people that have that, um, lone star tick issue, where a b- a buddy of mine has that. He ge- he got bit by a tick and he developed an allergy to red meat. It's a real pain in the ass for him, and it went away. He- he had it for a year and it went away, and it started to come back again. Um, that ... But that's rare. For most people, red meat is a very nutrient-dense food.

    27. SB

      Yeah, that's- that's- that's absolutely clear. I mean, and- and- and your point is, you know, if you get rid of the garbage, you're gonna have- you're gonna have a benefit in whatever route you're going. I think that's clear. And, you know, when we talk about it, 'cause you mentioned you're not totally strict. I am, you know, fairly strict, but I'm not religious about it. I don't sit there like ... You know, for instance, my- my son's birthday was, you know, a couple of days ago, on Thanksgiving.

    28. JR

      You had some cake?

    29. SB

      I had some- I had a piece of pumpkin pie, man.

    30. JR

      Nice.

  6. 12:27 – 14:24

    Cholesterol, the “Oreo experiment,” and the Lean Mass Hyper-Responder debate

    1. SB

      Yeah, it's pretty fun to do that stuff. And I, I definitely, uh ... you know, like I said, if there's anybody that has, you know ... like I said, if I'm wrong, I mean, it'll be clear that I've been eating meat, like, significantly for, for, for many, many years. I put a lot of that on, on video. But, you know, one of the interesting things is, you know, 'cause the backlash, you often hear is what about cholesterol? 'Cause I think that is-

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      ... a really important thing.

    4. JR

      I really wanted to talk about that.

    5. SB

      Yeah, awesome, 'cause there's some ... you know, I, I think you saw that thing about the Oreo cookies. Did you see that too?

    6. JR

      Yes, I did. Yeah, let's talk about that.

    7. SB

      So anyway, there's a ... so, uh, there's a little backstory on this and, and last time I was here, I mentioned a guy named Dave Feldman. And he was, he was a guy that, you know, w- he was an engineer, pretty smart guy, and he, like, goes on a, like, a, a low carb-, you know, higher-fat diet and his cholest- he feels great. He's like, "Oh, my God. Everything feels great." But his cholesterol shoots through the roof and he's like, "Oh, my God. I'm gonna die," right? So he's freaked out about this stuff and he starts looking into it very m- mechanistically and spending years and years and years studying this stuff and finally puts together this sort of theory. And it's still a theory, but it's, it's, there's showing that ... there's a lot of evidence showing that it's probably likely true, called the lean mass hyper-responder and there's something called a lipid energy model. And so what this Oreo cookie thing was is another guy, he's another researcher. He's, he's a PhD from Oxford, he's getting ... he's also, um, uh, finishing his medical degree at Harvard and his name's Nick Norwitz. And he basically said, "Look, this lipid, uh, energy model works like this. When you cut carbs low and you get lean," right? "Your body says, 'Hey, there's not a lot of energy in my cells. My liver glycogen isn't full, my muscles aren't full of energy, so I need to get energy there somehow.'" And so what happens is the liver starts sending fat out into the bloodstream, like, to, to so you have energy to work, right? And so what, what he's showing is that if I just add Oreo cookies or some other energy-dense, maybe junk food in there, um, the body will say, "Hey, I've got plenty of energy now," so the liver shuts down. It doesn't traffic the cholesterol anymore, the triglycerides and tr- trig- uh, and the cholesterol. So that sort of validates what's going on here. And

  7. 14:24 – 17:25

    The upcoming CT angiography study: high LDL, low plaque, and a potential paradigm shift

    1. SB

      so the ... but the question is, is it bad if my cholesterol is really high, but I'm fit, I'm lean, my ... you know, I don't have diabetes, I don't have pre-diabetes, I don't have insulin resistance, I don't have high blood pressure? You know, I'm, I'm otherwise metabolically healthy 'cause you see these people. So you see th- they're lean athletes. You know, they go on a diet, like a carnivore diet or even a ketogenic diet, and they're like, "I feel great. It's the best I've felt in years, but my cholesterol's through the roof, so I gotta stop." And so that's the real question. So on December 8th, there's going to be a, a landmark study that's gonna be prevent- presented by a guy named Matt Budoff who's a, who's a, uh, cardiologist outta UCLA. I think he's one of the UC- he's a- he's attached to UCLA somewhere. And basically what they did was they took 100 people, all who have sky-high cholesterol. We're talking like total cholesterol of 500, 600, 700 milligrams per deciliter. It's enough to give your, your doctor a heart attack. You know, you walk in there with your cholesterol's like 600. "What the hell?" So he's got all these patients there that they are all otherwise metabolically healthy though. None of them are diabetics, none of them have bl- blood pressures or ... they're relatively lean. And what they did was they did high-level CT angiography of these people, looking really detailed at how much plaque's in their blood vessels and they're all older guys. They're like average age like our age, like mid-50s, like middle, late 50s, right? So this is where you'd expect to start seeing heart disease. And when they did that scan, almost none of them had any level of significant, you know, vascular disease. They were like clean, clean arteries. And so, so what ... and what they're doing is they're running them for a year and then they're gonna repeat the study, right, and say, "In one year, has anything occurred?" Now the criticism of that will be that, oh, it takes 20 years to do that, but Matt Budoff is like the world-leading expert on how fast vascular disease develops, right? So he's the guy that designed the study. He, he, he knows this stuff and so he said a year will show us for sure if vascular disease is gonna occur. So what they're doing on the 8th is they're, they're showing the preliminary data that shows all these people have n- almost no heart disease and they compare it to something called the MI- Miami Heart, uh, Dataset, which is like, like the, the, like the, the perfect dataset for if you wanna compare what's going on with vascular disease. And so in February they'll finish up, uh, the collection of data and then we'll get to see what happens after a year. Now I suspect what'll happen is it'll show no progression, little progression or even reversal, which would be shocking because all these people are saying cholesterol causes heart disease. 'Cause if you listen, you know, listen to guys like ... 'cause I know you got Peter on here, Peter Attia on here and he says, "Look, it's just a matter of how much cholesterol over how much time. If it's high for a long period of time, you're gonna get heart disease." But if this turns out to be what it, what, what I think it's gonna show, which, which it likely will show, then that throws a monkey wrench in that whole, whole, uh, theory because it's like, wait a minute. Maybe it's a dependent variable. Maybe if you're not fat, you know, out of shape, have high blood pressure and diabetes, that that LDL cholesterol being high is not as much of a problem as we thought it was, which is ... I mean, that's really ... I mean, that's, that's paradigm-shifting, quite honestly.

  8. 17:25 – 24:19

    Where LDL fear came from: rabbits, Ancel Keys, statins, and conflicts in nutrition science

    1. JR

      Where did the theory of LDL cholesterol being bad for you come from?

    2. SB

      Well, I mean, that goes back into the ... I mean, w- when they started looking at cholesterol, this is in rabbits way back in like the 1920s or something like that. They started feeding rabbits high-cholesterol diets and the rabbits got heart disease.

    3. JR

      Well, rabbits don't really eat high-cholesterol diets.

    4. SB

      No, they don't. They don't, really. It's, it's an unnatural diet for them, but they, they started looking at, you know, th- the associational data started out back in the '50s when Eisenhower had his heart attack and everybody's freaking out because, uh, y- you know, we saw a rise in, in heart disease, you know, 1940s, 1950s and it's been ... you know, it's been our number one killer in Western, uh, populations since then. And so a guy named Ancel Keys was one of, one of the ones that started, uh, promoting that theory. They did, you know, associational studies where they say, "Well, look at these countries. They eat a lot of saturated fat and they don't ... they have high cholesterol and they die more, more commonly of heart disease."... um, and so that, that basically data has been done over and over again. I mean, they've done g- uh, Mendelian randomization studies, which there's some problems with th- those, those types of things. They've done, um, you know, studies where they can show that, you know, we can lower cholesterol and cardiovascular disease decreases. So we know that, you know, that's the whole premise behind statin drugs. Some people think it's a pleomorphic effect or it's like a side effect, like maybe it's decreasing the inflammation and by decreasing the inflammation, you're actually improving heart disease. But there's been, I mean there, I mean there's a ton of evidence that would point to yes, that is what's going on. Now, what I would say is, again, you're looking at a general population and, and the other thing is all-caused mortality. So clearly there's a lot of evidence that points to like, like normally they, they like your total cholesterol below like 190 or LDL below 100, something like that. But if we look at like population studies and all-caused mortality, cancer, uh, heart disease, uh, dementia, infectious disease, so on and so forth, the people with higher cholesterol actually live longer. They, they're, they're the ones that live longer. And so the question is, you know, maybe I won't get a heart attack, but I'm gonna get cancer instead because my cholesterol is too low, perhaps. Now the critics of that'll say it's reversed causality. It's like well, the only reason your cholesterol was low was because you had cancer, right? And cancer is making your, your cholesterol go down because cholesterol, LDL cholesterol and some of the other lipoproteins actually have a function there. They participate in our immune response. So they're, it's there for a reason, it's not just for the hell of it, right? We have a reason for this stuff. Um, and so the, you know, but there's a, I mean there's a, uh, a plethora of studies on this stuff. Some of it's been paid for by the pharmaceutical industries, which, you know, of course there's a little bit of conflict of interest in, in some of that, you know, I would imagine. Um, but again, if you talk to 99% of cardiologists, they'll, they'll be on board with this. But like I said, this sort of population, which we never studied, we have no data on these people. You know, it's like, like, like if you go on a carnivore diet and Joe, I, I know you've gotten lean, you feel good, probably your blood pressure is good, probably your, you know, your, um, your glucose is good, is that mean it's dangerous for you? And, and the answer is we don't know yet, but this, this study will shed a ton of light on this, and so this is coming out. Like I said, the preliminary da- uh, data December 8th when Budoff presents to the, to the big conference and then, and then when they finish the collecting the all, the full data in February, they'll probably publish that probably spring, summer, something like that.

    5. JR

      Are you aware of any of the results?

    6. SB

      I'm aware of the preliminary data, right, and, and they're (laughs) ... I talked to the researchers and they're like, "Man, we don't..." They know the results, but they don't wanna share it 'cause they don't want, they don't want the cat getting out of the bag early. But it's gonna, we're gonna get it on December 8th and basically it's gonna... What I th- what I think, I'm, I'm, I'm 90% certain what it's gonna show is people with super high cholesterol that are otherwise super lean and healthy compared to the average population have less risk for cardiovascular disease based on this data. That's what I think is gonna happen. Now we'll know for sure on December 8th when Budoff presents.

    7. JR

      There's also an issue with dietary cholesterol and what dietary cholesterol, how it shows up in the body.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. JR

      People have this assumption that when you consume dietary cholesterol, it raises b- uh, cholesterol that you can measure in the blood.

    10. SB

      Yeah. That's, that's been shown to be completely... Uh, in fact 2015, USDA said, "No, cholesterol does not cause elevated cholesterol in the blood." That's been shown now because now what they'll-

    11. JR

      Which is fascinating.

    12. SB

      Which is fascinating.

    13. JR

      Right?

    14. SB

      But they'll say, what they will say is saturated fat, which often runs with cholesterol because the only reason... The only place you get cholesterol is in animal products and very often, you'll get saturated fat in animal products and so they'll say but it's, it's not the cholesterol, but it's actually the saturated fat.

    15. JR

      But we know that saturated fat was demonized by the sugar industry-

    16. SB

      W- yeah, I mean-

    17. JR

      ... in that bullshit study that they put, put out in the 1960s where they paid these guys the equivalent of $50,000 today to lie.

    18. SB

      Yeah, I mean that's, that, that's clearly, that clearly happened. That was Harvard University where they basically took a bunch of money to basically demonize fat and, and protect sugar, and I think that's been going on for-

    19. JR

      Which is wild.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      The sugar industry bribed those doctors-

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      ... and that information has been the basis that people have been making recommendations on forever, on a fraudulent study, and still to this day, doctors will cite that not knowing it. And when you tell them about it, they're like, "What are you talking about?" And then you'll show, uh, pull it up on Google and they just go, "Huh. What is this?"

    24. SB

      Yeah.

    25. JR

      Like there's so many doctors that aren't aware that the demonization of saturated fat was specifically caused by these papers, by these doctors that were bribed.

    26. SB

      Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it, it, it is crazy to think, uh, how much, you know, I, uh, you know, you'd think that science would be a quest to find the truth or, or to explain the observations around us. But a lot of times, you know, science now is marketing. I mean it really is. I mean it's paid for, companies are gonna benefit from this. You know, you think about a lot of these academic institutions, a lot of their funding comes through industry and, and they don't get funding if they don't get the results that they're, they're, they're getting paid for, so...

    27. JR

      It's even more insidious than that because the people that are involved in the FDA eventually go and work for these corporations, which is so-

    28. SB

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      ... wild. When you see that happen and you go oh my God, there's a clear revolving door. It's not like shell corporations or some secret hidden money overseas. No, it's like right in front of your face. These people work for the government, they make these laws and they make these recommendations and then they go on to get these incredible jobs where they get paid lucrative amounts of money.

    30. SB

      Yeah, golden parachutes, right?

  9. 24:19 – 31:19

    Why red meat gets demonized: flawed epidemiology, beef industry politics, and the checkoff system

    1. SB

      Yeah, here's a, I'll tell you, here's an interesting thing. So I've been trying... So, like, Harvard recently came out with a study, nonsense epidemiology, that red meat is contributing to diabetes, increase your risk for diabetes, right?

    2. GU

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      And this is a study done by Harvard. Wal- Walter Willett is, has been the chair. He's been vegetarian, he's been, he's been conflicted for years. But basically what they did was they said, "Well, we're gonna count lasagna as red meat. We're gonna count sandwiches as red meat."

    4. GU

      (laughs)

    5. SB

      And the people that eat red meat are, they're overweight, they're smokers. We didn't really correct for that. So, it's... But the headline is, red meat causes diabetes. Meanwhile, you got a study that, you know, that, that Harvard did three years ago with David Ludwig that says, "Look, these people a- are eating nothing but red meat and their diabetes is going away." How can those two things co-exist? Well, what I'm trying to do is get an interventional study done. So I, you know, it's kind of interesting, because this is how far what I think the, the problem is. So I went to something called the NCBA. This is the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, and this is supposed to represent all the cattle producers in the United States, right? And there's something called the beef, Beef Checkoff. You remember that? Beef, it's what's for dinner.

    6. GU

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      You remember that thing? It was like Robert Mitchum back in '92. And then I think, uh, Sam Elliot. They got great voices, right? You know-

    8. GU

      Yeah.

    9. SB

      ... beef, it's what's for dinner. You know that, that type of thing. Th- this is what they're supposed to do. So they collect... As part of the Beef Checkoff, like every time a cow moos in the United States, like if you own a cattle ranch and you sell your cow, you gotta pay a dollar. If it goes to a, you know, if it goes to a slaughter facility, it's gotta pay a dollar. If it goes to a feed yard, it's gotta, gotta pay a dollar. So, this is... So every year, and there's like roughly... We slaughter about 34 million head of cattle every year in the United States, which, you know, interestingly, India slaughters more cattle than we do, which I didn't know that, but it's-

    10. GU

      They do?

    11. SB

      Yeah, they have... They slaughter 38 million head of cattle every year. And you think about India, there's like... They're all vegetarian and eating cows. They export most of that. But they have, they have the biggest, uh, herd of cattle in the world in India. There's 300 million head of cattle in India.

    12. GU

      That's insane. I thought-

    13. SB

      Yeah. So United States-

    14. GU

      I thought they're sacred.

    15. SB

      Well, they are in, in some, in some parts of India, right? But they, they actually slaughter more cattle in, in India than we do in the United States. Um, and they export most, a lot of it. There's some... Like Southern India, they still eat, they'll eat a little bit of beef. In fact, there's a lot of carnivores in India right now. It's kind of crazy. I did, I, I did conferences in India and it's just like, wow, it's kind of a growing movement down there. But back to the point. So, so we've got this Beef Checkoff system. So every cattle rancher, they pay a buck, right? And, and then so at the end of the year, they collect 30, 40, $50 million a year. It's supposed to be to promote beef, like beef, it's what's for dinner, to do research and all that stuff. And so I... You know, uh, the US Cattlemen's Association, which is the... Represents the cattle producers, but the NCBA represents Cargill and Tyson and the packing things. And so there's a little conflict between that. Um, but they have all the money. And I, and I went to those guys, to the Beef Checkoff, and I said, "Hey, look. We wanna spend a little bit of money to do a study on beef versus diabetes, because we know the results are gonna be... The, the people are gonna have... They're gonna go on an all-meat diet or close to all-meat diet, and their diabetes is gonna go away." So it's, it's simple and it takes all the confusion out, because whenever you do a s-... You know, you hear all these dietary studies, it's like, "Oh, but he was eating hamburgers and french fries, and there's all this confounders."

    16. GU

      Right.

    17. SB

      So, and it's like, you can't really test it. I'm like, "The perfect way to test if meat is healthy or not is to just put them on a damn carnivore diet and see what happens."

    18. GU

      It's the only way to test it-

    19. SB

      Right, right, yeah.

    20. GU

      ... because if you do an epidemiology study-

    21. SB

      Right, right.

    22. GU

      ... and you don't account for sugar, sugary drink-

    23. SB

      Right, right.

    24. GU

      ... Coca-Cola, bread, pasta, lasagna.

    25. SB

      Yeah. That's exactly... And that's what Harvard did recently. They didn't account for sugar intake when they said beef causes diabetes. I'm like, "You gotta be kidding me. You're not even counting sugar?"

    26. GU

      That's so crazy.

    27. SB

      Right. But they, but they get this published, and this is really bad science, you know? And, and guys like, uh, John Ioannidis who's a, who's a, one of the most cited scientists in the world has basically said, "All this epidemiology we're doing, we're just wasting money. It's not telling us anything because it's all garbage." But they keep doing it over and over again because they generate headlines, you know?

    28. GU

      Right.

    29. SB

      The headlines they want. But anyway, back to this Beef Checkoff thing. So I, I said, "Hey, look. You know, every year you award money, you know, hundreds of thou-... You know, tens of millions of dollars to promote beef." I said, "Let's get a little bit of money to do a research study on diabetes." And they literally said, "No, we're not interested in doing that." And I'm like, "You gotta be kidding me. The beef industry is taking a beating right now." You know, you, you listen to it, it's like, um, you know, everybody wants to get rid of beef. It's... Their, their cow farts are boiling the oceans and, uh, you know, it's gonna kill you, it's gonna give you cancer. Which all of this is largely nonsense. And this is a... You know, in my view, this type of study would clearly, clearly demonstrate, um, that not only does beef not cause diabetes. In fact, I talked to the CEO of the NCBA two years ago. I sat down, I, I presented in front of the California Cattlemen's Association, and, and literally the president of the association stood up and said, "I went on a carnivore diet and cured my diabetes." It's like, yeah, it's clear. And the guy said, "Yeah, I get it. We're gonna help you out. We're gonna get this going." I didn't hear... I heard nothing from these guys. So what I think is going on is the USDA kind of oversees all these checkoffs, and they just kind of say, "Look, you can't say that, because we want to promote..." You know, because again, they have all these processed food lobbies, Nabisco and PepsiCo sitting on the... You know, they're on the board, and they're like, "If we promote this one food and people stop eating all this processed food, right? Then what are we gonna do? We're gonna lose a lot of money." You think about it, you know. Not that I'm advocating that everybody go on a carnivore diet, because I don't think that's... I don't think it's necessary from, you know, for, for one, but if you significantly cut back on all these people consuming all this garbage, you know, what, what does that do economically to this country? I mean, think about how much money is spent on garbage food, the drugs that are needed to be treated for that.

    30. GU

      Mm-hmm.

  10. 31:19 – 34:51

    Detox myths, smoothies, sugar delivery systems, and what “ultra-processed” really changes

    1. JR

      Are enemas bad for you? 'Cause I've always wondered-

    2. SB

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      If your internal gut flora is important, and it is, isn't that getting washed out?

    4. SB

      I think to some degree it is. I don't know that anybody's really l- looked at it from that angle. But, uh, I, you know, I, I think in some cases, like, you know, some people's got s- some problems with constipation, it could be helpful. But I don't think it's generally a healthy practice for most. But I know there's people that are like, like, putting weird stuff up their butt. Man, it's just kind of like ... it's like one of those, like, things.

    5. JR

      I think it probably feels good-

    6. SB

      It might. Yeah.

    7. JR

      ... to get it flushed out.

    8. SB

      It might. It might feel good.

    9. JR

      Well, it also makes you see everything come outta you, I guess.

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      I've never done it.

    12. SB

      Yeah, I haven't done it. (laughs)

    13. JR

      But apparently there's a tube and they look at it, "Oh, look, here's your problems."

    14. SB

      Yeah. It's kind of like these, uh, th- there's this thing these crazy vegans do where they, um, they, they consume, like, uh, like this charcoal and this jelly and stuff and they ... th- this kind of gruel mix, and then it kind of, like, fills up their intestines and they poop it all out and they say, "That's, that's clearing out all my intestines." I can't remember what they call it. But it's like, there's these crazy, crazy videos where they're just pulling all this, like, gelatinous black stuff out of their butt. But it's like, you just ate all that stuff. That's what's coming outta you. It's not like it's ...

    15. JR

      Oh, look, all the toxins.

    16. SB

      Yeah. Exactly. They're full of t-

    17. JR

      You just ate that stupid. (laughs)

    18. SB

      (laughs) You just ate the same stocks, toxins are pooping out.

    19. JR

      People are obsessed with that term, like, releasing the toxins.

    20. SB

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. JR

      You know, they, they really think that that's what's happening when you sweat and you get in the sauna, you're releasing the toxins. Like, when you're sweating, your body's regulating your heat temperature. Yeah. That's what's going on. You know what clears your toxins? Your fucking liver.

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. JR

      That's what that thing's for.

    24. SB

      Yeah. Liver, kidneys. And we got a pretty good detox system, for sure.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. SB

      You don't need all the smoothie juice-fast detoxes. You know, it's like some of these people are d- detoxing when their teeth fall out. They're detoxing their teeth. (laughs)

    27. JR

      Well, the, the other thing is with, with the smoothie thing is, my God, you're getting so much sugar. And you're getting it in a weird form.

    28. SB

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      Y- if you're in, eating fruit smoothies, you're getting s- you're getting sugar in a very unnatural form. Fruit juices, we used to think that fruit juices are really good for you. Most doctors would agree that fruit juices are very high in sugar.

    30. SB

      Yeah.

  11. 34:51 – 41:35

    USDA’s ‘91% ultra-processed diet can be healthy’ and the politics of dietary guidelines

    1. SB

      So just by changing the quality of the food, you're changing how many calories you absorb. And that is what some people say is part of what leads to this obesity thing. But we know, like, for instance ... Well, he- here's another thing. The USDA came out with a study, like, I don't know, three months ago, 91% processed food diet is healthy. You know, that's what, this is what they're pushing, trying to, trying to get us ... because they're trying to position us to say-

    2. JR

      What was this study?

    3. SB

      This was ... the USDA put it out. It was probably, I think, it was the NOVA study. I think I've got ... I might have that on there, Jamie. But, um, it's, um, it's basically because th- there's, there's some, there starting to be backlash against ultra-processed foods. I mean, uh, like, South America is starting to ban the stuff, which I think ... you know, I, I'm not, I'm not for banning food. I mean, I think that gets into, you know, freedom of choice and things like that.

    4. JR

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      So you shouldn't ban- ... just like you can still smoke if you want to. You know it's not the best for you, so you don't want to do that. But at the same point, you know, they're saying, like, this stuff is ... there's a lot of backlash. And, like, people like myself and probably you and others are saying, "Look, this ultra-processed garbage is literally killing us. It's making us crazy, it's making us depressed, all these people with mental health disorders." Uh, a lot of that nutrition is part of that, and we can talk about that. But, you know, what th- what they're seeing is, there's a backlash against that. Yeah, so that's the NOVA, NOVA study.

    6. JR

      Dietary Guidelines Meet NOVA: Developing a Menu for a Healthy Dietary Pattern Using Ultra-Processed Foods.

    7. SB

      Yeah. So they're basically saying, "Hey, how do we make people eat more processed food and, and make it, quote-unquote, healthy?" And they showed that they could make a diet that's, like, 91% ultra-processed foods and still be, quote-unquote, "healthy." And-

    8. JR

      Look what it says here. It says, "The purpose of this proof-of-concept study was to determine the feasibility of building a menu that aligns with the recommendations for a healthy dietary pattern from the 2020 DGA and includes a over 80% ...... fr- what is that? Kcal. What's that say?

    9. SB

      Kilocalories.

    10. JR

      Kilocalories?

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      From UPF, ultra-processed foods, as defined by NOVA.

    13. SB

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Designed to accomplish this objective, we first developed a list of foods that fit NOVA criteria for UPF. Uh, ultra-processed foods fit within the dietary patterns in the 2020 DGA and are commonly consumed by Americans. We then used these foods to develop a se- what is, what is that? 7D? What does that mean?

    15. SB

      Seven-day, seven-day.

    16. JR

      Seven-day. Seven-day, 2,000-kilocalorie menu modeled on the MyPyramid sample menus and assessed this menu for nutrient content as well as for diet- diet quality using the Healthy Eating Index. The results in the ultra-processed DGA menu, uh, that was created, 91% of the kilocalories were from ultra-processed food or NOVA category IV. The HEI-215 score was 86 out of a possible 100 points. This sample menu did not achieve a perfect score due primarily to excess sodium and an insufficient amount of whole grains. This menu provided adequate amounts of all macro and micronutrients, except vitamin D, vitamin E, and choline. Conclusions. Healthy dietary patterns can include most of their energy from ultra-processed foods, still receive a high diet quality score, and contain adequate amounts of most macro and micronutrients. Boy.

    17. SB

      Right. So, remember, USDA, the guys that go there, they leave USDA and they go sit on, on-

    18. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. SB

      ... the board of directors at Nabisco and PepsiCo. And so this is really, I think, what this is, it's positioning us, it's positioning us as a society to accept that ultra-processed foods are our food. It's, it's, it's really human pet food. I mean, you, you see what happens to our pets.

    20. JR

      Yes.

    21. SB

      And, and everybody's fat, so we're gonna still eat, we're gonna say, "Well, it's okay." It's okay if you eat your, you know, your human dog chow or your human chow. Just keep, keep doing that. Don't ask questions. And, oh, by the way, here's an Ozempic shot or a semaglutide shot. Well, semaglutide shot will give you to, to kind of keep you chilled out. So it, it's really ... I mean, it's, it's, it's almost sinister in a way.

    22. JR

      It's very bizarre. It's very bizarre that this isn't challenged and that shows you how captured our food industry really is. The fact that that's not challenged, the fact that, uh, our health guidelines aren't set on, hey, what you should be eating is what human beings are designed to eat in nature.

    23. SB

      Yeah. Well, I mean, it's-

    24. JR

      Which is real food.

    25. SB

      I mean, I, you know, my opinion on dietary guidelines, 'cause we have a USDA that meets every five years. And, and, and by the way, so USDA diet- dietary guidelines about it, did you see there's a physician from, from Harvard named, uh, uh, Fatima Stanford, right? She went on 60 Minutes and said obesity has nothing to do with diet, it has nothing to do with exercise. It's all gene- disease and genetic, and there's nothing you can literally do. And, and real- and she's also sponsored by Novo Nordisk, who makes Ozempic, right? And she's on there, and she's also a member of the US dietary guidelines panel. So 95% of the people that sit on the US dietary guidelines panel today, for this next one when they're gonna come up with 2025 guidelines, all have financial ties to processed food companies.

    26. JR

      Yeah.

    27. SB

      Which, I mean, you think about it, it's just like, this is crazy. So-

    28. JR

      It's so wild.

    29. SB

      So if you go to, like, Brazil, like Brazil's dietary guidelines, or at least the ones they released a few years ago, it, it was like, "Here's what you should do. Um, cook at home, don't eat processed foods, and, and eat with people around that, that you love." That, that's their literally, that is their recommendation, which-

    30. JR

      Hmm.

  12. 41:35 – 46:45

    Mental health, hospitals serving junk food, and the fiber/microbiome controversy

    1. SB

      Oh, sure, sure. It's, it's, you know, like, I'm gonna go back to mental health a little bit. So there is a, another guy at Harvard, his name's Dr. Chris Palmer. He's, he's a good dude. He's, like, an Indiana country boy, but he's at Harvard. And he just wrote a book called Brain Energy, where he talks about how nutrition and metabolism significantly affect mental health disorders. And, you know, we've got something like 25% of Americans are on a drug for mental health, which is insane. I mean, it's like how the hell do we, do we make it through millions of years as a species, you know? Or hundreds of thousands of years, rather. But what they've shown, in one study they showed that, you know, they took, like, uh, 30 people that were inpatient, like, psychotic. I mean, schizophrenia, manic bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, and they changed their diet. They put them on a, you know, clean diet, you know, kind of a lower carb diet. And all of them, every single one of them saw a significant improvement in their mental health. And so, but, you know, what do we do now? You know, if you go to, like, rehab, drug rehab, or you, you put somebody in a, in an institution, they just feed them garbage.

    2. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      They just keep them perpetuating this horrible, uh, brain, brain-

    4. JR

      And when you go to the hospital.

    5. SB

      Yeah. The hospitals are horrible for food.

    6. JR

      Hospital has terrible food.

    7. SB

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. JR

      They give you garbage. They give you little fucking things, the applesauce and-

    9. SB

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      ... cheeseburgers.

    11. SB

      Yeah, the pancakes with syrup and an orange juice-

    12. JR

      Yeah.

    13. SB

      ... and, and some jello. Like, the fed- that crappy jello they always give you, yeah.

    14. JR

      Yeah, it's all bad for you. You don't get grass-fed steak.

    15. SB

      No, not at all.

    16. JR

      No.

    17. SB

      It's ...

    18. JR

      ... fiber. This is-

    19. SB

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      ... this is another thing that always comes up when, when I tell people that I eat only meat. "What about fiber?"

    21. SB

      Yeah. Yeah. So that's a, that's a good, that's a good topic. And, and so what I would say is fiber is conditionally beneficial. So if you're eating a standard diet, yeah, you're gonna eat, you're, if you put fiber ... You know, fiber really is a marker for, uh, diet quality, right? So if I'm, if I'm some poor guy and I'm eating these potato chips and cookies, I don't get a lot of fiber. If I got a little more money, I'm probably buying the fruits and vegetables, probably out of guilt, but it, but it generally represents higher socioeconomic status, uh, better overall diet quality, and, and I think it's beneficial in that situation. But if you go like, is it providing anything that I can't get from meat? So there was a study that, uh, a guy named Tommy Wood and the other, other, uh, researcher was Mahler. I can't remember her first name. It was female. They did a study looking at, um, what happens to the microbiome, because we're always hearing, "Oh, you need fiber to feed your microbiome right."

    22. JR

      Right.

    23. SB

      "You need those short-chain fatty acids. You need the, uh, the butyrate or the butyric acid." Well, they looked at that and they said, "Look, the gut has, our gut has incredible metabolic flexibility." And so even in the absence of fiber, you can get the same short-chain fatty acids from protein. You can get it from being in a low-carb state where you have, you know, more ketones being produced, because, you know, the, the, the main ketone that's in our blood is called beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is very similar to butyric acid. It's only one, you know, hydroxyl molecule away, and it, it reverses all the time. So they indicated that that ... You know, we don't need fiber for that particular aspect. And the other thing, there was a recent study, um, 'cause I see, what I see is so many autoimmune conditions. You know, you know, like I know you've talked to Jordan and Mikayla and, you know-

    24. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    25. SB

      ... they've seen these crazy autoimmune conditions, which I've seen in the thousands now. It's crazy. Like Crohn's Disease, ulcerative colitis, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, eczema, asthma, uh, you know, anything. Um, that there was a study looking at fiber actually exacerbating problems with rheumatoid arthritis because of its interaction with a particular bacteria called Prevotella copri, I think, or something like that. And so we're seeing, yeah-

    26. JR

      There it is.

    27. SB

      So high-fiber diet synergizes and exacerbates rheumatoid arthritis. So basically, you know, it's showing that, yeah, I mean, there, there can be problems with fiber for a lot of people, particularly if they have these issues. And so ...

    28. JR

      So when people say that fiber's beneficial, what they're essential sa- essentially saying is that if you have a poor diet, if you have a, a diet that's rich in ultra-processed foods and garbage, fiber would be beneficial to you because it would help ... What does it do? It helps push that food-

    29. SB

      Well, I think it's, I think it's displacing, I think it's displacing the garbage off the plate, right? So if you-

    30. JR

      Uh-huh.

  13. 46:45 – 1:02:03

    Extreme obesity and food addiction: ‘finding the off switch’ with carnivore

    1. SB

      And, and that's just the normal kids. You know, you see some of these kids who are just like ... I mean, I got ... Jamie, I got a picture I gotta show you. This is so incredible, Jamie. There's a, there's a gal, before and after picture. We got this food addiction stuff. So, so I interviewed a gal. She was 800 pounds, right? It's like how, how do you get to 800 pounds? It's like impossible. Like I could, I don't think I could do it if I tried, right? I mean, I don't, you know. Food, food addict. Couldn't stop eating chocolate and ice cream and all that stuff. And this is her-

    2. JR

      Whoa.

    3. SB

      Uh, she's eight- almost 800 pounds or 350 kilos, which is the most I've ever deadlifted, so that's, that's kind of an interesting weight.

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. SB

      But 22 months, she goes on carnivore, right? I interviewed her a while back, and she's now lost almost 500 pounds on carnivore when nothing else would work for her. I mean, she literally, I mean, she told me, it was like, "I finally found the off switch." She tried Weight Watchers. She tried like gastric by- you know, band surgery. She tried vegan diets. She tried juicing. She tried Weight Watch. She tried every single thing you could think of, but could never stop, stop it, and finally for the first time in her life, she's like, "I finally found freedom from this food addiction."

    6. JR

      Wow.

    7. SB

      And, you know, recent studies show that, uh, that other guy in the hat, this is a funny guy. This guy in the hat right there, his name is, uh, oh, what's his name? I'm, I'm blanking on his ... Todd. He's a dude out in Montana, right? He was 770 pounds, right? Same sort of situation. Started drinking Cokes when he was, he, when he was 14 years old. I'm doing the interview and he, he goes, "Yeah." So, you know, I didn't, I didn't know who he was and he starts telling me. He goes, "Yeah, when I was 14, I was 600 pounds." I'm like, "What? 600 pounds at 14?" It's like how the hell can you get to 400 bu- You know, and they're, they're a poor family and his mom and sister and everybody in the family's, you know, very obese, and they had tried gi- gastric bypass and it didn't work for them, but same thing with this kid. I mean, he's just like, I call him a kid, he's 40. He went carnivore and for the first time in his life he's like, I don't need the sugar and I don't need the Coke. He was drinking like 20 Cokes a day or some ridiculous stuff.

    8. JR

      (sighs)

    9. SB

      And he just blew up and blew up and he could not stop until ... And this is why, one of the reasons I think, I think they know this. I mean, the food industry knows they're making addictive food. They clearly know that. In fact, I had a gal who worked for one of the major food manufacturing companies, and her job, she was a, she was a chemist, uh, and her job was to design food to be as addictive as possible. And she literally told me that. She goes, "I can no longer get, live with the guilt, and I wanna come work for you guys." And, you know, she was just so like, just beside herself. She says she realizes what she's created with this epidemic of disease and suffering. I mean, 'cause these people are suffering. Did you see that movie The Whale? Did you ever see that movie?

    10. JR

      I did not.

    11. SB

      ... it's good. It's an interesting movie. So it's, it's, you know, Brendan Fraser and he's, it's like a 700 pound dude.

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SB

      It shows he lives in his cou- he lives in his recliner. He can't barely get up, he can barely go to the bathroom, refrigerator next to him, and his whole life is in there. And this guy did the same thing. He said he spent like... He said he went, he fasted one time for 40 days trying to lose weight just... And he never left his chair. He let... He just sat there for 40 days and didn't eat.

    14. JR

      Wow.

    15. SB

      Can you imagine? That's like hell. That's like hell on earth. You know, but now he's like, now he's going back to work. He's getting out in the field and he's working doing like electrical work or something like that. But I mean, it's just the sugar in one way... You know, I know there's people out there saying, "Listen, uh, sugar's fine." Solseed oils and stuff like that. But I think clearly there are people that are addicted to either sugar or sugary foods, you know. It's like, you know, because you like would you eat chocolate if there's no sugar in it? I mean, it's like, eh, you know, that, that 100% dark. It's kind of like... Have you tried that? Have you-

    16. JR

      It's kind of gross.

    17. SB

      It is. It's like the only reason you eat that stuff is 'cause there's sugars in there. So people say, "Well, no one's, no one's mainlining bags of sugar." But I mean, actually, I know people that have actually done that. I mean, it's kind of crazy if you, if you see these people that are so addicted to this stuff, but-

    18. JR

      They mainline the sugar?

    19. SB

      Well, I mean, well, I mean they just eat it out of the bag, you know.

    20. JR

      Oh, okay.

    21. SB

      So it's kind of like they're not stupid.

    22. JR

      Not like an IV. (laughs)

    23. SB

      (laughs) They're not like heroin addicts. But I mean, they're, they're like, you know... 'Cause there, there are people that say they'll do that if they can't get anything else and you-

    24. JR

      They just eat a bag of sugar.

    25. SB

      They'll just eat. They'll sit down... Well, there's... The lethal dose for sugar is about like five pounds. If you like sat down and ate a five-pound bag of sugar, it would kill you. It would literally cause you to go into liver failure. So there is like an LD50 on sugar. So it is-

    26. JR

      Over what time period?

    27. SB

      Just like whatever. Maybe a day or something like that, you know, if you just sat down and ate, you know. And some of these people... You see some of these... Have you seen like, uh, they call them fatfluencers, like these body positive?

    28. JR

      (laughs)

    29. SB

      I mean, it's... You know influencers, but they're fat, right?

    30. JR

      Yeah.

  14. 1:02:03 – 1:37:48

    BJJ injury recovery, stem cells, neck training, and building durable athletic capacity

    1. JR

      And that's what the stem cells are for, today.

    2. SB

      Yeah, exactly. Well, ex- and, and appreciate it. That was ... I guess we may chat about that. So you've been doing stem cells for, for a while, right, Joe? It's like-

    3. JR

      Oh, I've cured some really serious injuries with stem cells.

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      That, that, that I was told needed surgery.

    6. SB

      Yeah. That's, that's a ... That's the interesting thing, because I'm an orthopedic surgeon, right? I operate on ... I replace knees and hips and shoulders and all that stuff over the years. And the orthopedic s- surgery... Orthopedic, you know, Academy, uh, says stem cells don't really work. And so ... But the question is, is it because ... Again, there's a conflict of interest there, because if you're n- not getting surgery, 'cause you're getting stem cells, I'm losing out on, you know, shoulder arthroscopy money, right? So I mean, there's a little bit of a conflict of interest there. So I go into it with a little bit of skepticism, but I'm open-minded and we'll see. Like I said, if I, you know, if I notice... 'Cause I wanna get back to rolling. I mean, I-

    7. JR

      The key is you have to not roll for quite a while.

    8. SB

      Yeah, well, I'm not-

    9. JR

      You have to really let that thing heal.

    10. SB

      Well, what I'm planning on d- ... You know, like I said, I'm ... Like, I got one of those iron neck deals, right?

    11. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SB

      You're a fan of that. And I talked to the guy r- uh, Robert, I think is, uh, the, the, you know, the head of that company. And it's pretty cool. I was doing it in s- in the hotel room this morning. But I mean, it was just like, uh, I wanna ... 'Cause I got a long neck. I don't know if you can tell, I got a pretty long neck. I'm a pretty big, strong guy, but, like, my neck is an area where I didn't really, like, spend a lot of time developing 'cause I did... I mean, when I played rugby, I did. I'd do some neck bridges and wrestlers' bridges, and like you'd ... Neck bridge and start bench pressing with the weight on there.

    13. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SB

      But I hadn't done that in years, you know, 'cause I just like, uh ... So then, you know, when I got into jujitsu and I'd been doing... I'd, you know, two, two years into it basically, and then I just got dumped, man. I was just like ... You know, we were talking about that. I just got landed on my head.

    15. JR

      Dropped on your head, yeah.

    16. SB

      Dropped on my head and flexed under me. A- And my ... 'Cause I'm about 250, 260, and the other guy was like, I don't know, 220, and it was just like that combined weight. It was just like, "Ah."

    17. JR

      That's a lot of weight.

    18. SB

      Yeah, so it's one thing. So I want to-

    19. JR

      Necks are a real problem.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      John John Machado always said, "Never trust your neck."

    22. SB

      Yeah, yeah, so I-

    23. JR

      Yeah, that's as-

    24. SB

      So my goal is to make it as strong and as flexible-

    25. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. SB

      ... and as bulletproof as possible before I go back. You know, 'cause I, I may go back to just doing some, like, drilling and stuff like that, but not the actual live rounds for a while. But, um, yeah, so-

    27. JR

      Yeah, you just have to avoid aggravating it while it happens.

    28. SB

      Yeah.

    29. JR

      My buddy, Shane Dorian, who's a big wave surfer, he just went down to, uh, the CPI in, uh, Tijuana, and they can do some wild shit down there. And they in- they inject... 'Cause that's part of the problem with it not being co- completely approved by the FDA, is they're limited in their applications.

    30. SB

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:08:42

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode VftiRHObhcU

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome