Joe Rogan Experience #2069 - Dr. Shawn Baker

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music)

Joe Rogan 0:12 You good? And we're on.

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:13 Awesome.

Joe Rogan 0:14 What's up, Sean? Good to see you.

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:15 Well, uh, good to be back, Joe. Thanks for-

Joe Rogan 0:16 You're still alive. You've been eating nothing but meat, and you're still alive.

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:19 (laughs) I am still alive, yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:20 Fucking doubters be gone. (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:22 Yeah, yeah. Hey, Joe, before we get started, I just wanna say thank you for, one, for the stem cell stuff, but also for, you know, just, just having the conversations that other people are not willing to have. And, you know, we've... I've seen where they try to cancel you and all the BS, and, and, you know, you didn't have to do that. But you, you know, let other people have discussions who are not being censored, so just in case other people have... I'm sure you've been told that before, but-

Joe Rogan 0:43 Well, thank you.

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:43 I appreciate that. It's a, uh, it, it's a weird time, man. It's-

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:46 It really is.

Joe Rogan 0:46 It's... First of all, it's a weird time that a guy like me has a show.

Dr. Shawn Baker 0:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:50 Which is bizarre that this kind of, you know, that I'm a source of information in some sort of strange way, because that's certainly not what I set out to do. Just along the line, I, you know, I'm curious. I wanted to talk to people, you know, including you and, uh, this diet. And, you know, I tell people I, uh, I'm not strict with, uh, my carnivore diet. Like Saturday night, I had sushi, but I'll tell you, I felt like shit afterwards. (laughs) I ate a ton of it. I ate so much. I'm a glutton, but, uh, all that rice, I was like, "Oh." It just makes me realize, like how much better I feel when I only eat carnivore, when I, when I just eat mostly meat, I feel so much better. I mean, uh, maybe it's anecdotal. Maybe it's just me and you, maybe, a- and, and many other people that do it, but there's something to it. But you're an extreme example because you have been doing it now for how many years?

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:46 So, I'm starting my eighth year, so just, just, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:50 Eighth year.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:51 Yeah. So when I came to see you last time, it was almost, it was six years ago. So I had, I had been... just finished seven years now. So yeah, it's been a while.

Joe Rogan 1:57 And people should know that you're l- you're actually a doctor. You're an orthopedic surgeon, and you didn't, didn't at one point in time they took your license away because you were providing medical information, but you got it back?

Dr. Shawn Baker 2:09 Yeah, it was kind of an interesting thing. So when I was, I was practicing medicine, busy orthopedic surgeon, you know, plugging away, doing a thing. And then I started realizing, "Hey, I can have people avoid surgery by changing their diet," and their pain went away. And I was like, "You don't need surgery." Well, that is not what hospitals want you to do. They want you to, you know, keep the, keep the, the engines turning, so to speak. And so I, you know, said, "Hey, look, I wanna practice some lifestyle stuff." And that ended up, you know, uh, leading to a long battle with myself and the hospital. The hospital basically suspended my privileges and went to the state. The state said, "Hey, you can fight this," um, y- you know, in, in our, in our sort of state medical board situation, "or you can get independently evaluated." And I said, "Well, let me just get independently evaluated 'cause I don't, I don't, I don't see eye to eye with the hospital." And so that was done. It was like right at the time when I saw you a couple days before, and they came back and said, "There's nothing wrong with you. Go back to work." And so I got that, I got that, and then I had to, you know, reapply to the board, reapply for a license. They r- r- granted my license, and I've renewed it three times since then. So I'm a licensed medical, you know, l- licensed doctor, you know? Uh, but I just... You know, right now, I'm not actually actively practicing because I got frustrated with the medical system. I think our healthcare system has some serious, serious problems, you know, some serious conflicts of interest, some serious... I think the, the incentives for providing what I think is appropriate healthcare is, is misaligned. And so, you know, over the last few years, so we set up a company. It's called Revero, and we're, we're licensed in all 50 states. We have physicians all across the country, and we're basically set up to provide what I call actual healthcare, root cause medicine, get people off the medications, actually, you know, try and fix their d- d- their disease and not just medicate everybody 'cause we have such a s- system where everybody's just like, you know, you go to the doctor, you know, "Here's your diagnosis, here's your drugs. Keep... Stay on them the rest of your life," which I think is the wrong-

Joe Rogan 3:59 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 3:59 ... the wrong course.

Joe Rogan 4:00 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. What, what, what's the name of the company again?

Dr. Shawn Baker 4:03 So the company's called Revero, R-E-V-E-R-O.

Joe Rogan 4:05 Okay.

Dr. Shawn Baker 4:05 And so we raised a bunch of money from, from crowdfunding and also a bunch of venture capitalists. And so, uh, we've been, we've been basically building that. We've got thousands of people that are basically on the waiting list. We launch in a couple weeks. And so, uh, you know, so like I said, it's gonna be something that I think will provide healthcare as it should be. You know, instead of, like I said, instead of the, just the symptom management, putting Band-Aids on stuff, actually getting people healthy 'cause I think a l- a lot of diseases are, are reversible, and we've seen that all the time. You know, we see that pretty frequently.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Well, that's one of the most fascinating things about this carnivore diet, is how many, albeit anecdotal stories, you have of people that had all these different conditions, chronic pain, rheumatoid arthritis, chronic fatigue, all these different issues, skin issues, eczema, all these different things that they were treating with medication, it wasn't working. They were experiencing side effects. They start eliminating everything from their diet except for meat, and all of a sudden, these problems go away. I mean, there's too many of those stories for it to be ignored.

Dr. Shawn Baker 5:12 Yeah, it's, it's... I've been astounded by the number of, number of, you know, just crazy, crazy things that have happened. And, and again, it's not... You know, it's not that, you know, that is the, the most profound, rigorous type of, type of science that you can do, but it's, it... You can't ignore it at this point. There are literally probably hundreds of thousands of people now who've tried it. I go all over the... I've been all over the world now talking about this, and I get people from Germany and Greece and, you know, China and Japan and Africa that have all done this and they all say the same thing. "Look, I was sick, and now I'm not sick anymore." And so whether or not that is, you know, enough evidence to say this is, you know, a, a good treatment, you know, I can't say that, but you can't deny it's happening. And I'm... I've been trying to get research done. In fact, there was a study done out of Harvard University two years ago. I don't know if you saw that. So, uh, there's a guy named David Ludwig who was a senior author. And David, I've talked to him. He is the most ethical s-... You know, just like, he does not want any money from industry. He refuses to take anything. He's like, "I wanna make sure I do pure science."And they did a study and they looked at 2,000 people on a carnivore diet, and basically what they saw was, like 95% of the people, significant improvement across the board. Now, uh, the thing that was interesting to me is the diabetics. We had like 225 diabetics in that population. 92% of them came off all their insulin. These are all type two's, you know, so-

Joe Rogan 6:28 That's insane.

Dr. Shawn Baker 6:28 ... so that's- that's- you know, 100% came off all these other injectable drugs, his GLP-1 receptor agonists, which we've heard so much about lately, you know, the Ozempics and things like that.

Joe Rogan 6:36 Semaglutide.

Dr. Shawn Baker 6:36 Semaglutide, right. Came off, uh, something called a PCSK9 inhibitor. No, sorry, the SGLT2 inhibitors. Uh, 84% came off their metformin. So it's just like, this is c- clearly a, uh, at least it- at the very least, a therapeutic tool. And that's how I push this. I don't tell ... Like, y- you know, I wrote a book on this. I didn't say, "Humans are carnivores." I said, "Humans are opportunistic omnivores." If we were- if we were living in the Middle Ages and we came across- we're out hunting mammoths and all of a sudden, you know, the Ice Age is route, and we came across like, a twee full of- tree full of Twinkies. I mean, we'd probably go, "Ah, shit, I'm gonna eat that."

Joe Rogan 7:08 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 7:09 You know? We'd try it, right? We'd eat it, right? Because you know we would.

Joe Rogan 7:11 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 7:11 But I mean, it's ... And- and, you know, there's people- there's obviously people that eat plants that aren't dead and are doing okay, so we're omnivores. But from a disease, you know, mitigation standpoint, I mean, a ther- a therapeutic carnivore diet is tremendously effective. I mean, it's one of the more effective things I've seen across the board. And so, at the very least, you know, you'd say, "Let's explore that aspect of it." Because, you know, like I said, there's people that are suffering, and we've got so many people ... I know we- we're- I mean, when you talk about vegan, carnivore, all the- you know, everything in between, but I think at the

Dr. Shawn Baker 7:41 end of the day, it's everybody's eating processed garbage. I mean, we're eat-

Joe Rogan 7:44 Yes.

Dr. Shawn Baker 7:44 ... we're just eating bullshit. I mean, and- and that is really one of the problems. And the- and the one thing, and you said this, Joe, when you eat just meat, you're like, "I don't want that other bullshit."

Joe Rogan 7:52 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 7:52 'Cause you're- you're s- you're actually satiated. And this is the thing that's, I think, problematic. Because if you look at ... Actually, there was a study that just came out now, looking at, um, the financial incentive for ultra-processed food. Why do we have this stuff? So you look at the big, uh, asset management groups. You know, you've got BlackRock, you've got Vanguard, you've got, uh, State Street, uh, and Capital. And I can't remember the full names on these, but- but those guys collectively own s- huge portions of Nestle, Pes- PepsiCo, all these other processed food companies. And they also have- they also have significant shares in pharmaceutical manufacturers. So you basically ... You sicken the population by feeding them garbage, and then you just- you- you- you profit on their- on their disease. And I think that's what's going on. And I think it's really unfortunate, you know. And I think, you know, some people make an argument, you know, is a- is a net- is there a net benefit from feeding more people versus how many people are getting sick? And I think there's a point where, you know, the line goes, you know, if- if s- if ev- most people are getting sick from this and only a few people are benefiting, then you've- you've kind of crossed that line of, you know, does it- does it- is it for the greater good? And then, it becomes into the realm of almost evil, in my be- in my mind.

Joe Rogan 9:02 Well, I think it started out with just trying to make money.

Dr. Shawn Baker 9:05 Sure, sure.

Joe Rogan 9:05 I mean, that's- that's what started out with the processed foods. And I think then they realize, "Well, now you're- you're selling more medication to these people, so you make more money on top of that more money." I don't even think it's a conspiracy. I think it's just opportunity. I think they just look at profits, and that's what these corporations are established for. The- their bottom line is they're supposed to make as much money as they can for their shareholders.

Dr. Shawn Baker 9:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:30 That's their responsibility. Their responsibility is to m- have like, a cute cartoon guy that sells you sugary cereal. Because, you know, when I was a kid, that's what I wanted. I want Cocoa Puffs.

Dr. Shawn Baker 9:41 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:42 I wanted Captain Crunch.

Dr. Shawn Baker 9:43 Franken- Frank- Frankenberry.

Joe Rogan 9:43 All that stuff.

Dr. Shawn Baker 9:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:44 Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why all that garbage is like ... It's so addictive, it's so delicious, you know, and it's, uh, clearly targeted for young people.

Dr. Shawn Baker 9:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:54 Clearly.

Dr. Shawn Baker 9:55 I mean, that paper that I- that I talked about, and I think I- I ... You know, it's in that list that I gave Jamie, but, um ... It basically says this is the whole thing. They- they make tremendous short-term profits for their- for their shareholders, and- and that's why they do it.

Joe Rogan 10:07 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 10:07 So i- yeah, it's clearly financially driven. You can't blame them. I mean, this is what any business wants.

Joe Rogan 10:11 Exactly.

Dr. Shawn Baker 10:12 They just want to be successful.

Joe Rogan 10:13 Exactly.

Dr. Shawn Baker 10:13 So it's about making money like everything else, really.

Joe Rogan 10:15 Yeah, that's what they do. I think the cutting the bullshit out is the biggest factor in this whole carnivore diet thing. I really do. I mean, I- I- I definitely think there's- there's ... Obviously, meat itself, regardless of the bullshit and the propaganda, meat is the most nutrient-dense food you can eat. All this crap where they say that meat causes cancer, if meat caused cancer, most people would have cancer. 95-plus percent of the population on Earth eats meat. And all this propaganda you hear about, you know, "You're gonna get cancer. You're- you're gonna- diseases are gonna go," all these different things, it does not seem to be the case in people that just eat meat. When you're looking at ... My experience, I have not ... And again, anecdotal. I've never met anybody that went on this diet that didn't have a positive result. Everybody that I know that goes on this diet ... Now, clearly, there's g- genetic differences. Some people have a p- well, definitely there's people that have that, um, lone star tick issue, where a b- a buddy of mine has that. He ge- he got bit by a tick and he developed an allergy to red meat. It's a real pain in the ass for him, and it went away. He- he had it for a year and it went away, and it started to come back again. Um, that ... But that's rare. For most people, red meat is a very nutrient-dense food.

Dr. Shawn Baker 11:37 Yeah, that's- that's- that's absolutely clear. I mean, and- and- and your point is, you know, if you get rid of the garbage, you're gonna have- you're gonna have a benefit in whatever route you're going. I think that's clear. And, you know, when we talk about it, 'cause you mentioned you're not totally strict. I am, you know, fairly strict, but I'm not religious about it. I don't sit there like ... You know, for instance, my- my son's birthday was, you know, a couple of days ago, on Thanksgiving.

Joe Rogan 11:59 You had some cake?

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:00 I had some- I had a piece of pumpkin pie, man.

Joe Rogan 12:01 Nice.

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:01 So I hadn't- you know, I hadn't had that in 10 years, but I'm like, "You know, no big deal. I didn't die." But it's not l- like I said, my diet literally is probably-... 98% red meat. I mean, I just, I just eat steaks every day, (laughs) you know?

Joe Rogan 12:13 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:13 It's kind of crazy, you know?

Joe Rogan 12:14 Well, the videos are hilarious-

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:16 ... of you eating steaks, listening to vegan propaganda.

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:19 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:19 Just you have a big cutting board and a giant cleaver, and you're slicing off pieces of tri-tip while you're watching vegan propaganda and smiling.

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:27 Yeah, it's pretty fun to do that stuff. And I, I definitely, uh ... you know, like I said, if there's anybody that has, you know ... like I said, if I'm wrong, I mean, it'll be clear that I've been eating meat, like, significantly for, for, for many, many years. I put a lot of that on, on video. But, you know, one of the interesting things is, you know, 'cause the backlash, you often hear is what about cholesterol? 'Cause I think that is-

Joe Rogan 12:46 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:46 ... a really important thing.

Joe Rogan 12:47 I really wanted to talk about that.

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:48 Yeah, awesome, 'cause there's some ... you know, I, I think you saw that thing about the Oreo cookies. Did you see that too?

Joe Rogan 12:52 Yes, I did. Yeah, let's talk about that.

Dr. Shawn Baker 12:54 So anyway, there's a ... so, uh, there's a little backstory on this and, and last time I was here, I mentioned a guy named Dave Feldman. And he was, he was a guy that, you know, w- he was an engineer, pretty smart guy, and he, like, goes on a, like, a, a low carb-, you know, higher-fat diet and his cholest- he feels great. He's like, "Oh, my God. Everything feels great." But his cholesterol shoots through the roof and he's like, "Oh, my God. I'm gonna die," right? So he's freaked out about this stuff and he starts looking into it very m- mechanistically and spending years and years and years studying this stuff and finally puts together this sort of theory. And it's still a theory, but it's, it's, there's showing that ... there's a lot of evidence showing that it's probably likely true, called the lean mass hyper-responder and there's something called a lipid energy model. And so what this Oreo cookie thing was is another guy, he's another researcher. He's, he's a PhD from Oxford, he's getting ... he's also, um, uh, finishing his medical degree at Harvard and his name's Nick Norwitz. And he basically said, "Look, this lipid, uh, energy model works like this. When you cut carbs low and you get lean," right? "Your body says, 'Hey, there's not a lot of energy in my cells. My liver glycogen isn't full, my muscles aren't full of energy, so I need to get energy there somehow.'" And so what happens is the liver starts sending fat out into the bloodstream, like, to, to so you have energy to work, right? And so what, what he's showing is that if I just add Oreo cookies or some other energy-dense, maybe junk food in there, um, the body will say, "Hey, I've got plenty of energy now," so the liver shuts down. It doesn't traffic the cholesterol anymore, the triglycerides and tr- trig- uh, and the cholesterol. So that sort of validates what's going on here. And

Dr. Shawn Baker 14:24 so the ... but the question is, is it bad if my cholesterol is really high, but I'm fit, I'm lean, my ... you know, I don't have diabetes, I don't have pre-diabetes, I don't have insulin resistance, I don't have high blood pressure? You know, I'm, I'm otherwise metabolically healthy 'cause you see these people. So you see th- they're lean athletes. You know, they go on a diet, like a carnivore diet or even a ketogenic diet, and they're like, "I feel great. It's the best I've felt in years, but my cholesterol's through the roof, so I gotta stop." And so that's the real question. So on December 8th, there's going to be a, a landmark study that's gonna be prevent- presented by a guy named Matt Budoff who's a, who's a, uh, cardiologist outta UCLA. I think he's one of the UC- he's a- he's attached to UCLA somewhere. And basically what they did was they took 100 people, all who have sky-high cholesterol. We're talking like total cholesterol of 500, 600, 700 milligrams per deciliter. It's enough to give your, your doctor a heart attack. You know, you walk in there with your cholesterol's like 600. "What the hell?" So he's got all these patients there that they are all otherwise metabolically healthy though. None of them are diabetics, none of them have bl- blood pressures or ... they're relatively lean. And what they did was they did high-level CT angiography of these people, looking really detailed at how much plaque's in their blood vessels and they're all older guys. They're like average age like our age, like mid-50s, like middle, late 50s, right? So this is where you'd expect to start seeing heart disease. And when they did that scan, almost none of them had any level of significant, you know, vascular disease. They were like clean, clean arteries. And so, so what ... and what they're doing is they're running them for a year and then they're gonna repeat the study, right, and say, "In one year, has anything occurred?" Now the criticism of that will be that, oh, it takes 20 years to do that, but Matt Budoff is like the world-leading expert on how fast vascular disease develops, right? So he's the guy that designed the study. He, he, he knows this stuff and so he said a year will show us for sure if vascular disease is gonna occur. So what they're doing on the 8th is they're, they're showing the preliminary data that shows all these people have n- almost no heart disease and they compare it to something called the MI- Miami Heart, uh, Dataset, which is like, like the, the, like the, the perfect dataset for if you wanna compare what's going on with vascular disease. And so in February they'll finish up, uh, the collection of data and then we'll get to see what happens after a year. Now I suspect what'll happen is it'll show no progression, little progression or even reversal, which would be shocking because all these people are saying cholesterol causes heart disease. 'Cause if you listen, you know, listen to guys like ... 'cause I know you got Peter on here, Peter Attia on here and he says, "Look, it's just a matter of how much cholesterol over how much time. If it's high for a long period of time, you're gonna get heart disease." But if this turns out to be what it, what, what I think it's gonna show, which, which it likely will show, then that throws a monkey wrench in that whole, whole, uh, theory because it's like, wait a minute. Maybe it's a dependent variable. Maybe if you're not fat, you know, out of shape, have high blood pressure and diabetes, that that LDL cholesterol being high is not as much of a problem as we thought it was, which is ... I mean, that's really ... I mean, that's, that's paradigm-shifting, quite honestly.

Joe Rogan 17:25 Where did the theory of LDL cholesterol being bad for you come from?

Dr. Shawn Baker 17:31 Well, I mean, that goes back into the ... I mean, w- when they started looking at cholesterol, this is in rabbits way back in like the 1920s or something like that. They started feeding rabbits high-cholesterol diets and the rabbits got heart disease.

Joe Rogan 17:41 Well, rabbits don't really eat high-cholesterol diets.

Dr. Shawn Baker 17:43 No, they don't. They don't, really. It's, it's an unnatural diet for them, but they, they started looking at, you know, th- the associational data started out back in the '50s when Eisenhower had his heart attack and everybody's freaking out because, uh, y- you know, we saw a rise in, in heart disease, you know, 1940s, 1950s and it's been ... you know, it's been our number one killer in Western, uh, populations since then. And so a guy named Ancel Keys was one of, one of the ones that started, uh, promoting that theory. They did, you know, associational studies where they say, "Well, look at these countries. They eat a lot of saturated fat and they don't ... they have high cholesterol and they die more, more commonly of heart disease."... um, and so that, that basically data has been done over and over again. I mean, they've done g- uh, Mendelian randomization studies, which there's some problems with th- those, those types of things. They've done, um, you know, studies where they can show that, you know, we can lower cholesterol and cardiovascular disease decreases. So we know that, you know, that's the whole premise behind statin drugs. Some people think it's a pleomorphic effect or it's like a side effect, like maybe it's decreasing the inflammation and by decreasing the inflammation, you're actually improving heart disease. But there's been, I mean there, I mean there's a ton of evidence that would point to yes, that is what's going on. Now, what I would say is, again, you're looking at a general population and, and the other thing is all-caused mortality. So clearly there's a lot of evidence that points to like, like normally they, they like your total cholesterol below like 190 or LDL below 100, something like that. But if we look at like population studies and all-caused mortality, cancer, uh, heart disease, uh, dementia, infectious disease, so on and so forth, the people with higher cholesterol actually live longer. They, they're, they're the ones that live longer. And so the question is, you know, maybe I won't get a heart attack, but I'm gonna get cancer instead because my cholesterol is too low, perhaps. Now the critics of that'll say it's reversed causality. It's like well, the only reason your cholesterol was low was because you had cancer, right? And cancer is making your, your cholesterol go down because cholesterol, LDL cholesterol and some of the other lipoproteins actually have a function there. They participate in our immune response. So they're, it's there for a reason, it's not just for the hell of it, right? We have a reason for this stuff. Um, and so the, you know, but there's a, I mean there's a, uh, a plethora of studies on this stuff. Some of it's been paid for by the pharmaceutical industries, which, you know, of course there's a little bit of conflict of interest in, in some of that, you know, I would imagine. Um, but again, if you talk to 99% of cardiologists, they'll, they'll be on board with this. But like I said, this sort of population, which we never studied, we have no data on these people. You know, it's like, like, like if you go on a carnivore diet and Joe, I, I know you've gotten lean, you feel good, probably your blood pressure is good, probably your, you know, your, um, your glucose is good, is that mean it's dangerous for you? And, and the answer is we don't know yet, but this, this study will shed a ton of light on this, and so this is coming out. Like I said, the preliminary da- uh, data December 8th when Budoff presents to the, to the big conference and then, and then when they finish the collecting the all, the full data in February, they'll probably publish that probably spring, summer, something like that.

Joe Rogan 20:38 Are you aware of any of the results?

Dr. Shawn Baker 20:41 I'm aware of the preliminary data, right, and, and they're (laughs) ... I talked to the researchers and they're like, "Man, we don't..." They know the results, but they don't wanna share it 'cause they don't want, they don't want the cat getting out of the bag early. But it's gonna, we're gonna get it on December 8th and basically it's gonna... What I th- what I think, I'm, I'm, I'm 90% certain what it's gonna show is people with super high cholesterol that are otherwise super lean and healthy compared to the average population have less risk for cardiovascular disease based on this data. That's what I think is gonna happen. Now we'll know for sure on December 8th when Budoff presents.

Joe Rogan 21:10 There's also an issue with dietary cholesterol and what dietary cholesterol, how it shows up in the body.

Dr. Shawn Baker 21:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:18 People have this assumption that when you consume dietary cholesterol, it raises b- uh, cholesterol that you can measure in the blood.

Dr. Shawn Baker 21:25 Yeah. That's, that's been shown to be completely... Uh, in fact 2015, USDA said, "No, cholesterol does not cause elevated cholesterol in the blood." That's been shown now because now what they'll-

Joe Rogan 21:37 Which is fascinating.

Dr. Shawn Baker 21:37 Which is fascinating.

Joe Rogan 21:38 Right?

Dr. Shawn Baker 21:38 But they'll say, what they will say is saturated fat, which often runs with cholesterol because the only reason... The only place you get cholesterol is in animal products and very often, you'll get saturated fat in animal products and so they'll say but it's, it's not the cholesterol, but it's actually the saturated fat.

Joe Rogan 21:51 But we know that saturated fat was demonized by the sugar industry-

Dr. Shawn Baker 21:55 W- yeah, I mean-

Joe Rogan 21:55 ... in that bullshit study that they put, put out in the 1960s where they paid these guys the equivalent of $50,000 today to lie.

Dr. Shawn Baker 22:04 Yeah, I mean that's, that, that's clearly, that clearly happened. That was Harvard University where they basically took a bunch of money to basically demonize fat and, and protect sugar, and I think that's been going on for-

Joe Rogan 22:14 Which is wild.

Dr. Shawn Baker 22:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:15 The sugar industry bribed those doctors-

Dr. Shawn Baker 22:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:17 ... and that information has been the basis that people have been making recommendations on forever, on a fraudulent study, and still to this day, doctors will cite that not knowing it. And when you tell them about it, they're like, "What are you talking about?" And then you'll show, uh, pull it up on Google and they just go, "Huh. What is this?"

Dr. Shawn Baker 22:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:36 Like there's so many doctors that aren't aware that the demonization of saturated fat was specifically caused by these papers, by these doctors that were bribed.

Dr. Shawn Baker 22:45 Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it, it, it is crazy to think, uh, how much, you know, I, uh, you know, you'd think that science would be a quest to find the truth or, or to explain the observations around us. But a lot of times, you know, science now is marketing. I mean it really is. I mean it's paid for, companies are gonna benefit from this. You know, you think about a lot of these academic institutions, a lot of their funding comes through industry and, and they don't get funding if they don't get the results that they're, they're, they're getting paid for, so...

Joe Rogan 23:12 It's even more insidious than that because the people that are involved in the FDA eventually go and work for these corporations, which is so-

Dr. Shawn Baker 23:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:21 ... wild. When you see that happen and you go oh my God, there's a clear revolving door. It's not like shell corporations or some secret hidden money overseas. No, it's like right in front of your face. These people work for the government, they make these laws and they make these recommendations and then they go on to get these incredible jobs where they get paid lucrative amounts of money.

Dr. Shawn Baker 23:44 Yeah, golden parachutes, right?

Joe Rogan 23:46 It's like (sniffs) it's crazy-

Dr. Shawn Baker 23:47 Uh, it-

Joe Rogan 23:47 ... that that's legal.

Dr. Shawn Baker 23:48 And it's not only... I mean, as you probably know, like the FDA, I mean, corporate capture, I mean, uh, the FDA... For new drug, for new drug, uh, approvals, it's like 65% of that budget comes from the pharmaceutical industry in, uh, i- itself. So they're like, they're paying to regulate themselves. And so it's like-

Joe Rogan 24:04 It's wild.

Dr. Shawn Baker 24:04 So it's kind of crazy. And USDA is not any different, you know, 'cause we talk about our food stuff.

Joe Rogan 24:08 Right.

Dr. Shawn Baker 24:08 I mean these guys that go on to become, you know, executive, you know, uh, big people in the USDA often do the same thing. They'll go on to these food companies and-

Joe Rogan 24:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 24:15 ... they'll have, they'll have the same sort of situation. And so-

Guest 24:18 ... dirty business.

Dr. Shawn Baker 24:19 Yeah, here's a, I'll tell you, here's an interesting thing. So I've been trying... So, like, Harvard recently came out with a study, nonsense epidemiology, that red meat is contributing to diabetes, increase your risk for diabetes, right?

Guest 24:30 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 24:30 And this is a study done by Harvard. Wal- Walter Willett is, has been the chair. He's been vegetarian, he's been, he's been conflicted for years. But basically what they did was they said, "Well, we're gonna count lasagna as red meat. We're gonna count sandwiches as red meat."

Guest 24:43 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 24:43 And the people that eat red meat are, they're overweight, they're smokers. We didn't really correct for that. So, it's... But the headline is, red meat causes diabetes. Meanwhile, you got a study that, you know, that, that Harvard did three years ago with David Ludwig that says, "Look, these people a- are eating nothing but red meat and their diabetes is going away." How can those two things co-exist? Well, what I'm trying to do is get an interventional study done. So I, you know, it's kind of interesting, because this is how far what I think the, the problem is. So I went to something called the NCBA. This is the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, and this is supposed to represent all the cattle producers in the United States, right? And there's something called the beef, Beef Checkoff. You remember that? Beef, it's what's for dinner.

Guest 25:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 25:21 You remember that thing? It was like Robert Mitchum back in '92. And then I think, uh, Sam Elliot. They got great voices, right? You know-

Guest 25:26 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 25:26 ... beef, it's what's for dinner. You know that, that type of thing. Th- this is what they're supposed to do. So they collect... As part of the Beef Checkoff, like every time a cow moos in the United States, like if you own a cattle ranch and you sell your cow, you gotta pay a dollar. If it goes to a, you know, if it goes to a slaughter facility, it's gotta pay a dollar. If it goes to a feed yard, it's gotta, gotta pay a dollar. So, this is... So every year, and there's like roughly... We slaughter about 34 million head of cattle every year in the United States, which, you know, interestingly, India slaughters more cattle than we do, which I didn't know that, but it's-

Guest 25:53 They do?

Dr. Shawn Baker 25:53 Yeah, they have... They slaughter 38 million head of cattle every year. And you think about India, there's like... They're all vegetarian and eating cows. They export most of that. But they have, they have the biggest, uh, herd of cattle in the world in India. There's 300 million head of cattle in India.

Guest 26:07 That's insane. I thought-

Dr. Shawn Baker 26:08 Yeah. So United States-

Guest 26:10 I thought they're sacred.

Dr. Shawn Baker 26:11 Well, they are in, in some, in some parts of India, right? But they, they actually slaughter more cattle in, in India than we do in the United States. Um, and they export most, a lot of it. There's some... Like Southern India, they still eat, they'll eat a little bit of beef. In fact, there's a lot of carnivores in India right now. It's kind of crazy. I did, I, I did conferences in India and it's just like, wow, it's kind of a growing movement down there. But back to the point. So, so we've got this Beef Checkoff system. So every cattle rancher, they pay a buck, right? And, and then so at the end of the year, they collect 30, 40, $50 million a year. It's supposed to be to promote beef, like beef, it's what's for dinner, to do research and all that stuff. And so I... You know, uh, the US Cattlemen's Association, which is the... Represents the cattle producers, but the NCBA represents Cargill and Tyson and the packing things. And so there's a little conflict between that. Um, but they have all the money. And I, and I went to those guys, to the Beef Checkoff, and I said, "Hey, look. We wanna spend a little bit of money to do a study on beef versus diabetes, because we know the results are gonna be... The, the people are gonna have... They're gonna go on an all-meat diet or close to all-meat diet, and their diabetes is gonna go away." So it's, it's simple and it takes all the confusion out, because whenever you do a s-... You know, you hear all these dietary studies, it's like, "Oh, but he was eating hamburgers and french fries, and there's all this confounders."

Guest 27:22 Right.

Dr. Shawn Baker 27:22 So, and it's like, you can't really test it. I'm like, "The perfect way to test if meat is healthy or not is to just put them on a damn carnivore diet and see what happens."

Guest 27:29 It's the only way to test it-

Dr. Shawn Baker 27:30 Right, right, yeah.

Guest 27:30 ... because if you do an epidemiology study-

Dr. Shawn Baker 27:32 Right, right.

Guest 27:32 ... and you don't account for sugar, sugary drink-

Dr. Shawn Baker 27:34 Right, right.

Guest 27:34 ... Coca-Cola, bread, pasta, lasagna.

Dr. Shawn Baker 27:37 Yeah. That's exactly... And that's what Harvard did recently. They didn't account for sugar intake when they said beef causes diabetes. I'm like, "You gotta be kidding me. You're not even counting sugar?"

Guest 27:43 That's so crazy.

Dr. Shawn Baker 27:44 Right. But they, but they get this published, and this is really bad science, you know? And, and guys like, uh, John Ioannidis who's a, who's a, one of the most cited scientists in the world has basically said, "All this epidemiology we're doing, we're just wasting money. It's not telling us anything because it's all garbage." But they keep doing it over and over again because they generate headlines, you know?

Guest 28:01 Right.

Dr. Shawn Baker 28:01 The headlines they want. But anyway, back to this Beef Checkoff thing. So I, I said, "Hey, look. You know, every year you award money, you know, hundreds of thou-... You know, tens of millions of dollars to promote beef." I said, "Let's get a little bit of money to do a research study on diabetes." And they literally said, "No, we're not interested in doing that." And I'm like, "You gotta be kidding me. The beef industry is taking a beating right now." You know, you, you listen to it, it's like, um, you know, everybody wants to get rid of beef. It's... Their, their cow farts are boiling the oceans and, uh, you know, it's gonna kill you, it's gonna give you cancer. Which all of this is largely nonsense. And this is a... You know, in my view, this type of study would clearly, clearly demonstrate, um, that not only does beef not cause diabetes. In fact, I talked to the CEO of the NCBA two years ago. I sat down, I, I presented in front of the California Cattlemen's Association, and, and literally the president of the association stood up and said, "I went on a carnivore diet and cured my diabetes." It's like, yeah, it's clear. And the guy said, "Yeah, I get it. We're gonna help you out. We're gonna get this going." I didn't hear... I heard nothing from these guys. So what I think is going on is the USDA kind of oversees all these checkoffs, and they just kind of say, "Look, you can't say that, because we want to promote..." You know, because again, they have all these processed food lobbies, Nabisco and PepsiCo sitting on the... You know, they're on the board, and they're like, "If we promote this one food and people stop eating all this processed food, right? Then what are we gonna do? We're gonna lose a lot of money." You think about it, you know. Not that I'm advocating that everybody go on a carnivore diet, because I don't think that's... I don't think it's necessary from, you know, for, for one, but if you significantly cut back on all these people consuming all this garbage, you know, what, what does that do economically to this country? I mean, think about how much money is spent on garbage food, the drugs that are needed to be treated for that.

Guest 29:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 29:44 You're talking... I mean, we spend four, $4.3 trillion a year on, on healthcare in this country, and what do we get for it? We got one of the sickest populations in the world. Our life expectancy is going down. Everybody's fat, everybody's depressed, everybody's on drugs. (laughs) You know, it's crazy.

Guest 30:00 It is crazy, and it's crazy that they don't look to diet as being the primary cause of that. Or if they do, they look to these epidemiology studies that don't take into account exactly what you're eating with the meat. Why is it meat that's always demonized?

Dr. Shawn Baker 30:15 Well, I think for a number of reasons. One, if you go back to like...... dietetics in the beginning. Like, back in 1917, the American Dietetics Association was formed. This was formed literally by Seventh-day Adventists. So that from the very, very beginning, the creation of the nutrition science field, these Seventh-day Adventists who are, you know, religiously regi- vegetarians, you know, you go back to, uh, like, uh, the Kellogg's brothers. You know, John Harvey Kellogg, where he's out there, you know, uh, circumcising females and saying, "We got ... we can't eat meat because it's gonna make you have sex and make you have lust and masturbate." This is all, like, this religious stuff. And then it got c- y-

Joe Rogan 30:51 People don't know that.

Dr. Shawn Baker 30:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:52 But they, they should know that.

Dr. Shawn Baker 30:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:53 That he developed this cereal, this bland cereal-

Dr. Shawn Baker 30:56 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 30:56 ... to discourage masturbation, which is one of the wildest things I have ever heard.

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:01 Yeah, that guy was a wacko, man. He was in there freaking g-

Joe Rogan 31:03 He was a wild dude. (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:03 He was giving himself, like, high pressure enemas every day.

Joe Rogan 31:06 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:06 It was just, like, fucking 20 gallons a minute enemas because he thought that was something.

Joe Rogan 31:10 Really?

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:10 Yeah. He was a wacko. He was a really nutty guy. You read about some of this stuff.

Joe Rogan 31:13 20-gallon enemas?

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:14 It was, it was some ridiculous, like, super high capacity, like, a Soper Soaker on steroids thing, just (imitates water splashing)

Joe Rogan 31:19 Are enemas bad for you? 'Cause I've always wondered-

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:22 If your internal gut flora is important, and it is, isn't that getting washed out?

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:28 I think to some degree it is. I don't know that anybody's really l- looked at it from that angle. But, uh, I, you know, I, I think in some cases, like, you know, some people's got s- some problems with constipation, it could be helpful. But I don't think it's generally a healthy practice for most. But I know there's people that are like, like, putting weird stuff up their butt. Man, it's just kind of like ... it's like one of those, like, things.

Joe Rogan 31:46 I think it probably feels good-

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:47 It might. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:47 ... to get it flushed out.

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:48 It might. It might feel good.

Joe Rogan 31:48 Well, it also makes you see everything come outta you, I guess.

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:51 I've never done it.

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:52 Yeah, I haven't done it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:52 But apparently there's a tube and they look at it, "Oh, look, here's your problems."

Dr. Shawn Baker 31:56 Yeah. It's kind of like these, uh, th- there's this thing these crazy vegans do where they, um, they, they consume, like, uh, like this charcoal and this jelly and stuff and they ... th- this kind of gruel mix, and then it kind of, like, fills up their intestines and they poop it all out and they say, "That's, that's clearing out all my intestines." I can't remember what they call it. But it's like, there's these crazy, crazy videos where they're just pulling all this, like, gelatinous black stuff out of their butt. But it's like, you just ate all that stuff. That's what's coming outta you. It's not like it's ...

Joe Rogan 32:22 Oh, look, all the toxins.

Dr. Shawn Baker 32:23 Yeah. Exactly. They're full of t-

Joe Rogan 32:24 You just ate that stupid. (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 32:26 (laughs) You just ate the same stocks, toxins are pooping out.

Joe Rogan 32:27 People are obsessed with that term, like, releasing the toxins.

Dr. Shawn Baker 32:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:32 You know, they, they really think that that's what's happening when you sweat and you get in the sauna, you're releasing the toxins. Like, when you're sweating, your body's regulating your heat temperature. Yeah. That's what's going on. You know what clears your toxins? Your fucking liver.

Dr. Shawn Baker 32:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:45 That's what that thing's for.

Dr. Shawn Baker 32:47 Yeah. Liver, kidneys. And we got a pretty good detox system, for sure.

Joe Rogan 32:49 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 32:49 You don't need all the smoothie juice-fast detoxes. You know, it's like some of these people are d- detoxing when their teeth fall out. They're detoxing their teeth. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:57 Well, the, the other thing is with, with the smoothie thing is, my God, you're getting so much sugar. And you're getting it in a weird form.

Dr. Shawn Baker 33:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:05 Y- if you're in, eating fruit smoothies, you're getting s- you're getting sugar in a very unnatural form. Fruit juices, we used to think that fruit juices are really good for you. Most doctors would agree that fruit juices are very high in sugar.

Dr. Shawn Baker 33:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:18 And to get it in that sort of liquid dose where it just goes right into your fucking bloodstream and your liver, that's a lot of sugar, man.

Dr. Shawn Baker 33:26 Well, you think about it, because, Joe, you're like ... y- you're out hunting all the time. And, you know, you g- when you're going out and you're like, "If I had to get food out here, what would I, what would I have available to, to, to eat?" I can tell you what you wouldn't. You wouldn't have all this processed food, but particularly, like, like, powder. You know, like, we make powdered sugar, we make powdered flour, and we, we, we combine them together. But we've changed the nature of the food so much that it's interesting. You know, I saw, uh, Darius Mozaffarian who's a researcher at Tufts who ... he's the guy that put out the study that says, uh, or was part of the study that said, you know, like, uh, uh, Lucky Charms are healthier than, than eggs. You saw that, like-

Joe Rogan 33:59 Yes.

Dr. Shawn Baker 33:59 ... last year. That's total BS, right?

Joe Rogan 34:01 Hilarious.

Dr. Shawn Baker 34:01 But one thing he did point out was that, like, over the last 20 years or so, we haven't really been eating much more calories than we were. Like, from the 1960s to about 2000, we ate more calories. And maybe that explains why everybody got fat. But since that time, we really haven't eaten much more. But we've eaten so much more ultra-processed food. In fact, right now, the US diet is close to 70% ultra-processed, which, you think about it, it's, like, crazy. And our kids are getting fat. But one thing that's interesting is, like, you know, you ... 'cause you're talking about the microbiome, right, our, our gut flora. Um, when you eat, like, whole food, you know, it, it goes farther down your digestive track and then, you know, our microbiome actually consumes some of that. Up to, up to 22% of our calories can be consumed by our, by our microbiome. But when you're just eating sugar, it goes straight in you. So those calories, your, your gut microbiome doesn't get any of that. So you're, you're ac- it's just like you're absorbing more calories.

Joe Rogan 34:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 34:51 So just by changing the quality of the food, you're changing how many calories you absorb. And that is what some people say is part of what leads to this obesity thing. But we know, like, for instance ... Well, he- here's another thing. The USDA came out with a study, like, I don't know, three months ago, 91% processed food diet is healthy. You know, that's what, this is what they're pushing, trying to, trying to get us ... because they're trying to position us to say-

Joe Rogan 35:13 What was this study?

Dr. Shawn Baker 35:14 This was ... the USDA put it out. It was probably, I think, it was the NOVA study. I think I've got ... I might have that on there, Jamie. But, um, it's, um, it's basically because th- there's, there's some, there starting to be backlash against ultra-processed foods. I mean, uh, like, South America is starting to ban the stuff, which I think ... you know, I, I'm not, I'm not for banning food. I mean, I think that gets into, you know, freedom of choice and things like that.

Joe Rogan 35:37 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 35:37 So you shouldn't ban- ... just like you can still smoke if you want to. You know it's not the best for you, so you don't want to do that. But at the same point, you know, they're saying, like, this stuff is ... there's a lot of backlash. And, like, people like myself and probably you and others are saying, "Look, this ultra-processed garbage is literally killing us. It's making us crazy, it's making us depressed, all these people with mental health disorders." Uh, a lot of that nutrition is part of that, and we can talk about that. But, you know, what th- what they're seeing is, there's a backlash against that. Yeah, so that's the NOVA, NOVA study.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Dietary Guidelines Meet NOVA: Developing a Menu for a Healthy Dietary Pattern Using Ultra-Processed Foods.

Dr. Shawn Baker 36:11 Yeah. So they're basically saying, "Hey, how do we make people eat more processed food and, and make it, quote-unquote, healthy?" And they showed that they could make a diet that's, like, 91% ultra-processed foods and still be, quote-unquote, "healthy." And-

Joe Rogan 36:24 Look what it says here. It says, "The purpose of this proof-of-concept study was to determine the feasibility of building a menu that aligns with the recommendations for a healthy dietary pattern from the 2020 DGA and includes a over 80% ...... fr- what is that? Kcal. What's that say?

Dr. Shawn Baker 36:41 Kilocalories.

Joe Rogan 36:41 Kilocalories?

Dr. Shawn Baker 36:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:42 From UPF, ultra-processed foods, as defined by NOVA.

Dr. Shawn Baker 36:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:46 Designed to accomplish this objective, we first developed a list of foods that fit NOVA criteria for UPF. Uh, ultra-processed foods fit within the dietary patterns in the 2020 DGA and are commonly consumed by Americans. We then used these foods to develop a se- what is, what is that? 7D? What does that mean?

Dr. Shawn Baker 37:06 Seven-day, seven-day.

Joe Rogan 37:07 Seven-day. Seven-day, 2,000-kilocalorie menu modeled on the MyPyramid sample menus and assessed this menu for nutrient content as well as for diet- diet quality using the Healthy Eating Index. The results in the ultra-processed DGA menu, uh, that was created, 91% of the kilocalories were from ultra-processed food or NOVA category IV. The HEI-215 score was 86 out of a possible 100 points. This sample menu did not achieve a perfect score due primarily to excess sodium and an insufficient amount of whole grains. This menu provided adequate amounts of all macro and micronutrients, except vitamin D, vitamin E, and choline. Conclusions. Healthy dietary patterns can include most of their energy from ultra-processed foods, still receive a high diet quality score, and contain adequate amounts of most macro and micronutrients. Boy.

Dr. Shawn Baker 38:07 Right. So, remember, USDA, the guys that go there, they leave USDA and they go sit on, on-

Joe Rogan 38:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 38:12 ... the board of directors at Nabisco and PepsiCo. And so this is really, I think, what this is, it's positioning us, it's positioning us as a society to accept that ultra-processed foods are our food. It's, it's, it's really human pet food. I mean, you, you see what happens to our pets.

Joe Rogan 38:26 Yes.

Dr. Shawn Baker 38:26 And, and everybody's fat, so we're gonna still eat, we're gonna say, "Well, it's okay." It's okay if you eat your, you know, your human dog chow or your human chow. Just keep, keep doing that. Don't ask questions. And, oh, by the way, here's an Ozempic shot or a semaglutide shot. Well, semaglutide shot will give you to, to kind of keep you chilled out. So it, it's really ... I mean, it's, it's, it's almost sinister in a way.

Joe Rogan 38:44 It's very bizarre. It's very bizarre that this isn't challenged and that shows you how captured our food industry really is. The fact that that's not challenged, the fact that, uh, our health guidelines aren't set on, hey, what you should be eating is what human beings are designed to eat in nature.

Dr. Shawn Baker 39:04 Yeah. Well, I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 39:05 Which is real food.

Dr. Shawn Baker 39:06 I mean, I, you know, my opinion on dietary guidelines, 'cause we have a USDA that meets every five years. And, and, and by the way, so USDA diet- dietary guidelines about it, did you see there's a physician from, from Harvard named, uh, uh, Fatima Stanford, right? She went on 60 Minutes and said obesity has nothing to do with diet, it has nothing to do with exercise. It's all gene- disease and genetic, and there's nothing you can literally do. And, and real- and she's also sponsored by Novo Nordisk, who makes Ozempic, right? And she's on there, and she's also a member of the US dietary guidelines panel. So 95% of the people that sit on the US dietary guidelines panel today, for this next one when they're gonna come up with 2025 guidelines, all have financial ties to processed food companies.

Joe Rogan 39:49 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 39:50 Which, I mean, you think about it, it's just like, this is crazy. So-

Joe Rogan 39:52 It's so wild.

Dr. Shawn Baker 39:53 So if you go to, like, Brazil, like Brazil's dietary guidelines, or at least the ones they released a few years ago, it, it was like, "Here's what you should do. Um, cook at home, don't eat processed foods, and, and eat with people around that, that you love." That, that's their literally, that is their recommendation, which-

Joe Rogan 40:09 Hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 40:09 ... I think is better than our guidelines. Because, you know, I mean, if left to our own, you know, I mean, we are now being told we gotta eat all this garbage, and it's just making us, it's just making us sick. It's crazy. And I think, you know, like, you know, I mean, it's like this is the most ... Can you remember a time? 'Cause you and I grew up at the same time. We're, like, I turned 57 in six weeks. And you're, like-

Joe Rogan 40:28 Yeah, I'm 56.

Dr. Shawn Baker 40:29 So we, we grew up at the same time. Back when we were kids, I mean, it's like when we were kids, we all watched the same fucking shows 'cause there was nothing else on, right?

Joe Rogan 40:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 40:36 There was, what, the CBS, ABC, NBC, and, and maybe, like, PBS, right? And maybe a local news station. That's all you had. So we're all watching Gilligan's Island and The Brady Bunch and-

Joe Rogan 40:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 40:44 ... Dukes of Hazzard and Charlie's Angels and stuff like that, and everybody had the same thing. But now it's so fractioned. Everybody's divided. I mean, I, I don't know if ... I can't remember a time when this country's been more divided. I mean, can you?

Joe Rogan 40:54 No.

Dr. Shawn Baker 40:55 I mean, it's just, like, every single issue, Palestine, Israel, uh, you know, COVID shot, not shot, um, climate change, no climate change. It's like everything's a war. It's, like, crazy. But I think part of that is, I mean, I don't think half people's brains work anymore. I mean, 'cause we're, we're just so nutrient-deprived.

Joe Rogan 41:11 I think that's really true. And it sounds crazy to say because people, "Oh, that's not it. No, it's social media." It's just, I think the mental health aspects of social m- social media, which are significant-

Dr. Shawn Baker 41:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:24 ... there's, there's real mental health issues-

Dr. Shawn Baker 41:25 Sure.

Joe Rogan 41:26 ... involved in these posts and commenting and seeking things that outrage you. I think it's exacerbated by people's poor physical health.

Dr. Shawn Baker 41:35 Oh, sure, sure. It's, it's, you know, like, I'm gonna go back to mental health a little bit. So there is a, another guy at Harvard, his name's Dr. Chris Palmer. He's, he's a good dude. He's, like, an Indiana country boy, but he's at Harvard. And he just wrote a book called Brain Energy, where he talks about how nutrition and metabolism significantly affect mental health disorders. And, you know, we've got something like 25% of Americans are on a drug for mental health, which is insane. I mean, it's like how the hell do we, do we make it through millions of years as a species, you know? Or hundreds of thousands of years, rather. But what they've shown, in one study they showed that, you know, they took, like, uh, 30 people that were inpatient, like, psychotic. I mean, schizophrenia, manic bipolar disorder, major depressive disorder, and they changed their diet. They put them on a, you know, clean diet, you know, kind of a lower carb diet. And all of them, every single one of them saw a significant improvement in their mental health. And so, but, you know, what do we do now? You know, if you go to, like, rehab, drug rehab, or you, you put somebody in a, in an institution, they just feed them garbage.

Joe Rogan 42:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:35 They just keep them perpetuating this horrible, uh, brain, brain-

Joe Rogan 42:38 And when you go to the hospital.

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:39 Yeah. The hospitals are horrible for food.

Joe Rogan 42:40 Hospital has terrible food.

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:42 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:42 They give you garbage. They give you little fucking things, the applesauce and-

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:45 ... cheeseburgers.

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:46 Yeah, the pancakes with syrup and an orange juice-

Joe Rogan 42:48 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:48 ... and, and some jello. Like, the fed- that crappy jello they always give you, yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:51 Yeah, it's all bad for you. You don't get grass-fed steak.

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:54 No, not at all.

Joe Rogan 42:55 No.

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:55 It's ...

Joe Rogan 42:56 ... fiber. This is-

Dr. Shawn Baker 42:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:58 ... this is another thing that always comes up when, when I tell people that I eat only meat. "What about fiber?"

Dr. Shawn Baker 43:03 Yeah. Yeah. So that's a, that's a good, that's a good topic. And, and so what I would say is fiber is conditionally beneficial. So if you're eating a standard diet, yeah, you're gonna eat, you're, if you put fiber ... You know, fiber really is a marker for, uh, diet quality, right? So if I'm, if I'm some poor guy and I'm eating these potato chips and cookies, I don't get a lot of fiber. If I got a little more money, I'm probably buying the fruits and vegetables, probably out of guilt, but it, but it generally represents higher socioeconomic status, uh, better overall diet quality, and, and I think it's beneficial in that situation. But if you go like, is it providing anything that I can't get from meat? So there was a study that, uh, a guy named Tommy Wood and the other, other, uh, researcher was Mahler. I can't remember her first name. It was female. They did a study looking at, um, what happens to the microbiome, because we're always hearing, "Oh, you need fiber to feed your microbiome right."

Joe Rogan 43:54 Right.

Dr. Shawn Baker 43:54 "You need those short-chain fatty acids. You need the, uh, the butyrate or the butyric acid." Well, they looked at that and they said, "Look, the gut has, our gut has incredible metabolic flexibility." And so even in the absence of fiber, you can get the same short-chain fatty acids from protein. You can get it from being in a low-carb state where you have, you know, more ketones being produced, because, you know, the, the, the main ketone that's in our blood is called beta-hydroxybutyrate, which is very similar to butyric acid. It's only one, you know, hydroxyl molecule away, and it, it reverses all the time. So they indicated that that ... You know, we don't need fiber for that particular aspect. And the other thing, there was a recent study, um, 'cause I see, what I see is so many autoimmune conditions. You know, you know, like I know you've talked to Jordan and Mikayla and, you know-

Joe Rogan 44:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 44:37 ... they've seen these crazy autoimmune conditions, which I've seen in the thousands now. It's crazy. Like Crohn's Disease, ulcerative colitis, psoriasis, rheumatoid arthritis, eczema, asthma, uh, you know, anything. Um, that there was a study looking at fiber actually exacerbating problems with rheumatoid arthritis because of its interaction with a particular bacteria called Prevotella copri, I think, or something like that. And so we're seeing, yeah-

Joe Rogan 45:04 There it is.

Dr. Shawn Baker 45:04 So high-fiber diet synergizes and exacerbates rheumatoid arthritis. So basically, you know, it's showing that, yeah, I mean, there, there can be problems with fiber for a lot of people, particularly if they have these issues. And so ...

Joe Rogan 45:16 So when people say that fiber's beneficial, what they're essential sa- essentially saying is that if you have a poor diet, if you have a, a diet that's rich in ultra-processed foods and garbage, fiber would be beneficial to you because it would help ... What does it do? It helps push that food-

Dr. Shawn Baker 45:31 Well, I think it's, I think it's displacing, I think it's displacing the garbage off the plate, right? So if you-

Joe Rogan 45:35 Uh-huh.

Dr. Shawn Baker 45:35 If you load your plate up with fruits and vegetables, which I think generally, I'm not a guy that says vegetables are trying to kill you and, and nobody should. I know there's other people. It's kind of funny. The carnivore, you talk about cults and carnivore's kind of become a cult, right?

Joe Rogan 45:45 Right.

Dr. Shawn Baker 45:45 And it's not because of me. I'm like, I tell people, "Hey, we're omnivores. This is a therapeutic protocol. Use it for as long as you like. If you want to do it for a lifestyle, have at it. It's fine. I'm not gonna ... " But I'm, but, but what I think was happening with fiber in a lot of ways, 'cause this fiber goes back to, uh, uh, what was the researcher's name? I'm blanking on his name. He had a cancer named after him, but anyway, from 1920s, 1930s, goes to Uganda in Africa and notices like, oh, these people aren't fat and sick like they are in England. And, uh, Burkitt, Denis Burkitt's the guy's name. And he says, "Well, oh, they're eating a lot of fiber." But they weren't also, they weren't eating a lot of sugar, and they weren't eating a lot of garbage like they were in the UK 'cause sugar's been around since about the 1600s and, and, and progressively has increased. I mean, the US right now, it's kind of interesting, like compared to like the 18, early 1800s, the average kid by the age of something like eight has eaten more sugar than they would have in a lifetime back, you know, 150 years ago. So it's kind of crazy.

Joe Rogan 46:38 By the time they're eight?

Dr. Shawn Baker 46:39 By the time they're eight years old, the average eight-year-old has eaten more sugar than somebody would have eaten in their entire life, you know?

Joe Rogan 46:45 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 46:45 And, and that's just the normal kids. You know, you see some of these kids who are just like ... I mean, I got ... Jamie, I got a picture I gotta show you. This is so incredible, Jamie. There's a, there's a gal, before and after picture. We got this food addiction stuff. So, so I interviewed a gal. She was 800 pounds, right? It's like how, how do you get to 800 pounds? It's like impossible. Like I could, I don't think I could do it if I tried, right? I mean, I don't, you know. Food, food addict. Couldn't stop eating chocolate and ice cream and all that stuff. And this is her-

Joe Rogan 47:12 Whoa.

Dr. Shawn Baker 47:13 Uh, she's eight- almost 800 pounds or 350 kilos, which is the most I've ever deadlifted, so that's, that's kind of an interesting weight.

Joe Rogan 47:18 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 47:20 But 22 months, she goes on carnivore, right? I interviewed her a while back, and she's now lost almost 500 pounds on carnivore when nothing else would work for her. I mean, she literally, I mean, she told me, it was like, "I finally found the off switch." She tried Weight Watchers. She tried like gastric by- you know, band surgery. She tried vegan diets. She tried juicing. She tried Weight Watch. She tried every single thing you could think of, but could never stop, stop it, and finally for the first time in her life, she's like, "I finally found freedom from this food addiction."

Joe Rogan 47:49 Wow.

Dr. Shawn Baker 47:49 And, you know, recent studies show that, uh, that other guy in the hat, this is a funny guy. This guy in the hat right there, his name is, uh, oh, what's his name? I'm, I'm blanking on his ... Todd. He's a dude out in Montana, right? He was 770 pounds, right? Same sort of situation. Started drinking Cokes when he was, he, when he was 14 years old. I'm doing the interview and he, he goes, "Yeah." So, you know, I didn't, I didn't know who he was and he starts telling me. He goes, "Yeah, when I was 14, I was 600 pounds." I'm like, "What? 600 pounds at 14?" It's like how the hell can you get to 400 bu- You know, and they're, they're a poor family and his mom and sister and everybody in the family's, you know, very obese, and they had tried gi- gastric bypass and it didn't work for them, but same thing with this kid. I mean, he's just like, I call him a kid, he's 40. He went carnivore and for the first time in his life he's like, I don't need the sugar and I don't need the Coke. He was drinking like 20 Cokes a day or some ridiculous stuff.

Joe Rogan 48:36 (sighs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 48:36 And he just blew up and blew up and he could not stop until ... And this is why, one of the reasons I think, I think they know this. I mean, the food industry knows they're making addictive food. They clearly know that. In fact, I had a gal who worked for one of the major food manufacturing companies, and her job, she was a, she was a chemist, uh, and her job was to design food to be as addictive as possible. And she literally told me that. She goes, "I can no longer get, live with the guilt, and I wanna come work for you guys." And, you know, she was just so like, just beside herself. She says she realizes what she's created with this epidemic of disease and suffering. I mean, 'cause these people are suffering. Did you see that movie The Whale? Did you ever see that movie?

Joe Rogan 49:12 I did not.

Dr. Shawn Baker 49:12 ... it's good. It's an interesting movie. So it's, it's, you know, Brendan Fraser and he's, it's like a 700 pound dude.

Joe Rogan 49:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 49:17 It shows he lives in his cou- he lives in his recliner. He can't barely get up, he can barely go to the bathroom, refrigerator next to him, and his whole life is in there. And this guy did the same thing. He said he spent like... He said he went, he fasted one time for 40 days trying to lose weight just... And he never left his chair. He let... He just sat there for 40 days and didn't eat.

Joe Rogan 49:33 Wow.

Dr. Shawn Baker 49:33 Can you imagine? That's like hell. That's like hell on earth. You know, but now he's like, now he's going back to work. He's getting out in the field and he's working doing like electrical work or something like that. But I mean, it's just the sugar in one way... You know, I know there's people out there saying, "Listen, uh, sugar's fine." Solseed oils and stuff like that. But I think clearly there are people that are addicted to either sugar or sugary foods, you know. It's like, you know, because you like would you eat chocolate if there's no sugar in it? I mean, it's like, eh, you know, that, that 100% dark. It's kind of like... Have you tried that? Have you-

Joe Rogan 50:02 It's kind of gross.

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:03 It is. It's like the only reason you eat that stuff is 'cause there's sugars in there. So people say, "Well, no one's, no one's mainlining bags of sugar." But I mean, actually, I know people that have actually done that. I mean, it's kind of crazy if you, if you see these people that are so addicted to this stuff, but-

Joe Rogan 50:13 They mainline the sugar?

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:14 Well, I mean, well, I mean they just eat it out of the bag, you know.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Oh, okay.

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:17 So it's kind of like they're not stupid.

Joe Rogan 50:18 Not like an IV. (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:19 (laughs) They're not like heroin addicts. But I mean, they're, they're like, you know... 'Cause there, there are people that say they'll do that if they can't get anything else and you-

Joe Rogan 50:24 They just eat a bag of sugar.

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:26 They'll just eat. They'll sit down... Well, there's... The lethal dose for sugar is about like five pounds. If you like sat down and ate a five-pound bag of sugar, it would kill you. It would literally cause you to go into liver failure. So there is like an LD50 on sugar. So it is-

Joe Rogan 50:38 Over what time period?

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:40 Just like whatever. Maybe a day or something like that, you know, if you just sat down and ate, you know. And some of these people... You see some of these... Have you seen like, uh, they call them fatfluencers, like these body positive?

Joe Rogan 50:50 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:50 I mean, it's... You know influencers, but they're fat, right?

Joe Rogan 50:52 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:52 And they're, and they're literally out there, and the processed food companies actually pay these guys, right?

Joe Rogan 50:56 They do?

Dr. Shawn Baker 50:57 Oh, yeah. It's the same thing. They, they, they're getting kickbacks to promote all this unhealthy behavior and unhealthy food, and they're going through what I eat in a day, and it's like, you know, you know everything. (laughs) You know, it's like Doritos and cookies and Cokes and all the garbage that they're, they're chowing down on. And, you know, we got this whole... The body positivity movement is being funded by the processed food industry. I mean, if you didn't know that. I mean, it's like they're, they've clearly shown it.

Joe Rogan 51:20 Directly.

Dr. Shawn Baker 51:21 Directly. They're paying these people to do this. The other thing processed food company... They're paying dieticians on, on social media also to recommend processed foods. So it's, it's just like, it's, it's... I mean, it's, it's clearly corrupt. I mean, it's crazy.

Joe Rogan 51:34 It's so dirty. It's such a dirty... But it's like a war against your health, and they're the enemy. They're the propagandists.

Dr. Shawn Baker 51:40 Well, and then they wanna... I mean, you've seen this stuff. Like, like, you know, they come after you. They say, "Oh, he's a racist or he's a right-wing fascist," or something like... 'Cause, 'cause you're like, "I don't want to be sick and fat." You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 51:49 Right.

Dr. Shawn Baker 51:49 That's what they come after you and say. It's, it's, you know... It's like there was... There was some article like, you know, working out is a right-wing conspiracy. Do you see that stuff?

Joe Rogan 51:56 Yes. It's, it's wild.

Dr. Shawn Baker 51:58 It's like crazy. Yeah, because-

Joe Rogan 51:59 It's wild 'cause some people read that, and people that are like extremely averse as to being labeled right-wing-

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:05 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:05 ... or being labeled racist or xenophobic or whatever it is, they're, they're terrified of those labels. They don't, they don't want that smoke. And so they see these things, and it does affect the way they view the world.

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:16 As ridiculous as it sounds, and maybe one article won't do it, but if you see enough of them over time, you will associate that activity with some sort of problematic label that could be put on you, which is incredible that we're so easily influenced.

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:33 Some of us.

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:34 Yeah, I mean, it's... You know, I, I saw like... I know you've had Elon on, on... Elon Musk come several times. I know he said like, "Look, I was a middle of the road dude," and that's me too. I was like, "I'm just kind of middle. Let people live. I'm not political one way or the other."

Joe Rogan 52:45 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:45 And all of a sudden, the whole spectrum just shifts-

Joe Rogan 52:47 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:47 ... way over, and it's like if you're not promoting like craziness, you're all of a sudden this-

Joe Rogan 52:53 You're a far-right person, yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:54 ... homophobic, racist, crazy person, which is kind of-

Joe Rogan 52:55 I've always been left-wing-

Dr. Shawn Baker 52:56 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:56 ... which is really crazy, but the left moves so far away from what the left used to be.

Dr. Shawn Baker 53:01 And now you're, now you're a fascist. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:03 Now I'm an alt-right influencer.

Dr. Shawn Baker 53:05 A right-wing fascist. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:05 You know, I've, I've seen people label me as an alt-right person. I'm like, "That is so wild that they can do that with a straight face." Because I've always... I've, I've said, "Hey, maybe we should look into universal basic income. Maybe we should use... Look into universal healthcare." I think education should be free. You know, I think we should subsidize the schools, and we should fix the roads, and we should fucking fix inner cities, and we should... If you're gonna use tax dollars, that's, that... And if I thought my tax dollars were being used very appropriately in that way, I'd be 100% in favor of all that stuff, if I thought it really was, uh, uh, overall benefit to society. The problem is bureaucracy and big government is insanely inefficient. Like if you were talking about if there was some sort of, uh, private industry, and the private industry only profited if something was successful, and they got involved in these particular activities. If they got involved in education, if they got involved in dietary health, and the only way they were profitable is if their methods were effective, because there's a free market, that would probably work. But when you get the government involved, all it does is make the government employees more wealthy, it makes the government larger, and it makes them protect that industry. We covered that with the homeless thing in, in California. If you're not aware, there's people that are working on the homeless. There's like a shitload of them. And some of them, they're making a quarter million dollars a year, and they are not putting a fucking dent in it. They're not effective at all.

Dr. Shawn Baker 54:37 Well-

Joe Rogan 54:37 In fact, the only thing that I saw that was effective at all in stopping the tents and the homeless situation was when Xi Jinping-

Dr. Shawn Baker 54:44 Yeah, yeah. San Francisco, right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:46 ... visited San Francisco. They fucking cleaned it up like that. Like you could have done this the whole time?

Dr. Shawn Baker 54:49 What did they do to those pe- Where did they put those people, do you think?

Joe Rogan 54:51 I don't know, but what are they gonna do now? Now that Xi Jinping is gone, are they gonna like take down the fences and let people camp again? Like you showed that the overall quality of life of the people that live in that city is not important to you. What's important is the view, the optics, when a fucking dictator comes and visits, which is so wild.

Dr. Shawn Baker 55:13 Yeah, I saw, you know, the governor, Gavin Newsom. I got... Do you think he's... I think he's gonna run for... I think... I, I'm just warn... You know, I try not to get political, but I'm just like...... what's gonna happen in the next election? I mean, are- is Biden even gonna be able to run? I mean, I'm just like-

Joe Rogan 55:26 I think, at this point, they kind of have to run him, unless he dies. I don't- we don't have- we have one year now.

Dr. Shawn Baker 55:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:34 We're in November. We're in late November. We have less than a year. Like, what are- how- what are they gonna do? I mean, you could- look, if Biden died tomorrow and then- what do they do with Kamala Harris? They're gonna put her on the moon? Like, what are they gonna do?

Dr. Shawn Baker 55:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:49 She's the vice president. So, if he dies, she becomes the president, which is fucking wild when you hear that lady talk.

Dr. Shawn Baker 55:55 But what if- what if- what if, like, Biden says, like, in, I don't know, May, he says, "You know, I'm- I'm just not feeling up to it." And then- and then they say, "Kamala's now the president." She's the first female president. And then she steps down at the convention and they said, "Let's give it to- to Newsom." I mean, do you think that's a plausible scenario?

Joe Rogan 56:11 That is possible, but it would be a real problem for people that are Kamala Harris supporters. And believe it or not, they exist.

Dr. Shawn Baker 56:17 Yeah, but I mean, how- I mean, I'm sure the- I'm sure the Democratic Party's just, like, calculating how big-

Joe Rogan 56:21 They have to be.

Dr. Shawn Baker 56:22 How big is this and what's- what's the thing with that?

Joe Rogan 56:23 I think they have fucking no cards and they're looking at this- this game and, I don't know, I think they're depending upon party loyalty. And they're depending upon Trump getting convicted-

Dr. Shawn Baker 56:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:35 ... and arrested. I mean, and- and, um, uh, imprisoned, rather. I don't know if that's gonna happen. I don't think it is. It doesn't seem to do- it seems like it's a bunch of trumped-up charges, no pun intended.

Dr. Shawn Baker 56:45 Y- yeah, I mean, I just- I, again, I- I- I'm not a political commentator or an expert. It does seem like really, like, why are they going after him so hard right now when they could have done it, you know, like the- the- the whatever, the hotel thing or the valuation of the property from 20 years ago?

Joe Rogan 57:00 It's bananas.

Dr. Shawn Baker 57:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:01 The valuation of the property is so obvious, so off what it should be. $18 million for Mar-a-Lago? I'd fucking buy it.

Dr. Shawn Baker 57:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:10 I'd fucking buy it immediately. If that shit was $18 million and you were the only one that was, uh, able to buy it, you'd be a fool not to scoop it up 'cause you could sell it right away. You could get a loan and you could sell that bitch right away for who knows how much. I mean, if- I think Forbes valued it, I think it was, like, well over 700 million.

Dr. Shawn Baker 57:27 Wow.

Joe Rogan 57:27 And Trump thinks it's worth over a billion, and he might be right. That's what's crazy. It's a giant piece of property in one of the most valuable pieces of land in all of America. I mean, a house next to him, down the street, a much smaller place sold for 50.

Dr. Shawn Baker 57:42 Yeah, so it doesn't make sense in my evaluation, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:43 It doesn't make- it's- it's- it does make sense if you- if you wanna look at banana public- republic tactics.

Dr. Shawn Baker 57:48 Banana republic, yeah. Yeah, it's got-

Joe Rogan 57:49 I mean, when you're imprisoning and- and trying to convict your political opponents, which is- I- the problem with that is, even if you think Donald Trump is a crook, even if you think that he should be arrested, this sets a precedent for future presidents. If we get someone who is not just Donald Trump, who has a lot of people in the center that say, "Hey, his economic policies were effective, his foreign policies were effective," even if I think he's a jerk, maybe that would be better to have a jerk run the country in a way that's better overall than what's g- being done right now. Even if you looked at that, what if someone further right than him steps in? What if a war breaks out? What if things get even crazier? What if nationalism really upticks? Then you have someone who is now in power that is far right, like has happened all over the world. If that happens and that person- if that precedent has been set for prosecuting your political opponents-

Dr. Shawn Baker 58:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:43 ... and going after them with trumped-up charges, we have a horrible situation. And that's one of the reasons why we have to stick with the rule of law. We have to stick with the- the- the way this country was founded on. These principles were set up because they wanted to mitigate corruption at its base level, at every step of the way. They wanted to stretch it out so no one could be an authoritarian dictator and run America.

Dr. Shawn Baker 59:06 Yeah, 'cause you talk about the backlash 'cause you saw, like, right, recently in Argentina-

Joe Rogan 59:10 Yes.

Dr. Shawn Baker 59:10 ... you know, a guy who's a libertarian won and then just in the Netherlands, which is kind of interesting 'cause they were like- in the Netherlands, they're trying to get rid of cows. They're like, "Oh, these cows are farting. They're killing the atmosphere," and the farmers were like, "We don't like this," and so they had this- I guess this P- PVV or PPP party, Freedom Party, and they- they won that by a landslide. And so- and then you saw in Italy, Meloni takes over. So you've got this, I think, backlash coming back.

Joe Rogan 59:33 Right.

Dr. Shawn Baker 59:33 And just it depends how- how far does the pendulum swing back the other way, and you're kind of like... I don't know. I mean, to- day-to-day to me, it doesn't really affect me that much 'cause I'm- I'm not, like, a political crazy person. But I'm just like, how does it affect my day-to-day stuff? I mean, a little bit of the COVID stuff, I was a little annoyed by that. I don't know. I know- (laughs) I know-

Joe Rogan 59:48 I was very annoyed by that.

Dr. Shawn Baker 59:48 I- I don't know. I, you know, I was- I just spoke in a conference in Florida and I had- I had Robert Malone sitting next to me in the- in the car when he was going out there, and I just kinda saw some of the craziness there. And I know that's a- that's a really sensitive issue, but, um, you know, it's kind of-

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 It's sensitive, but it shouldn't be.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:00:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:02 It- it should be sensitive the other way. You should- everyone at this point in time should realize that we got hoodwinked.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:00:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 Everyone should realize that it was an overall net negative for children that got kept out of schools, masks, all- all the shit that we saw that went on. Forget about just the vaccines. The lockdowns, just what they did, the closing of businesses, the essential businesses, that they had big chains m- labeled as essential, but these small mom and pop stores were forced to go under. People had worked their whole lives to develop these businesses and they took them away from them, and it's fucked up. And the fact that no one is outraged still and that this narrative has been allowed to be portrayed through the- the mass media that this isn't a major problem and that this cannot happen again, like, this is fucking madness, man.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:00:53 Yeah, it's like y- well, you see the shirt I'm wearing here. This is from my jujitsu coach. This guy's named Greg Anderson. He was a- he was a spec-

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 I know that dude.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:00:59 Oh, you know Greg Anderson? He's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:00 I follow him on Instagram.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:01:01 He's a good guy. So, he, uh, Special Forces- or Special Operations rather, Army Ranger, 15, 14, 15 tours overseas. Comes back as a Seattle cop and- during the pandemic and he- they were like, "Hey, you need to go arrest this lady for doing people's nails at her home." And he's like, "I'm not doing that. This is total bullshit," right? And he- and he- and he made a video and it went viral-

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 Yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:01:22 And the cops, the Seattle Police Com-, you know, Commissioner said, "Hey, Greg. We agree in principle what you're saying, but you gotta take down that video." Like, we, we ... And he just said, "No, fuck you. I'm not gonna do it." So they fired him. And so he got like, like a GoFundMe page and he raised a bunch of money and he opened a jujitsu studio and a CrossFit gym. He's like, "I make more money now (laughs) as a jujitsu guy than I ever did as a, as a cop." So he's-

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 He's great online, too. He's very wise.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:01:44 Yeah. He's, he's just, he's a good ... And he, he always beats my ass whenever I roll against him.

Joe Rogan 1:01:47 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:01:47 He always arm bars me, that motherfucker, man. It's just like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 Of course.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:01:50 It's just like, I try... I ... One time, one round, I got to, like, within two seconds of the round end and he, he didn't got me, and he got me in the last second. So it's kind of like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 (laughs)

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:01:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:58 Well, that's the process.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:01:59 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 I mean, one day you'll be doing that to people.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:02 Yeah, hopefully.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 You can stay healthy.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:03 Hopefully, if I stay healthy.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 And that's what the stem cells are for, today.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:05 Yeah, exactly. Well, ex- and, and appreciate it. That was ... I guess we may chat about that. So you've been doing stem cells for, for a while, right, Joe? It's like-

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 Oh, I've cured some really serious injuries with stem cells.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:14 That, that, that I was told needed surgery.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:16 Yeah. That's, that's a ... That's the interesting thing, because I'm an orthopedic surgeon, right? I operate on ... I replace knees and hips and shoulders and all that stuff over the years. And the orthopedic s- surgery... Orthopedic, you know, Academy, uh, says stem cells don't really work. And so ... But the question is, is it because ... Again, there's a conflict of interest there, because if you're n- not getting surgery, 'cause you're getting stem cells, I'm losing out on, you know, shoulder arthroscopy money, right? So I mean, there's a little bit of a conflict of interest there. So I go into it with a little bit of skepticism, but I'm open-minded and we'll see. Like I said, if I, you know, if I notice... 'Cause I wanna get back to rolling. I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 1:02:48 The key is you have to not roll for quite a while.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:50 Yeah, well, I'm not-

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 You have to really let that thing heal.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:52 Well, what I'm planning on d- ... You know, like I said, I'm ... Like, I got one of those iron neck deals, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:02:56 You're a fan of that. And I talked to the guy r- uh, Robert, I think is, uh, the, the, you know, the head of that company. And it's pretty cool. I was doing it in s- in the hotel room this morning. But I mean, it was just like, uh, I wanna ... 'Cause I got a long neck. I don't know if you can tell, I got a pretty long neck. I'm a pretty big, strong guy, but, like, my neck is an area where I didn't really, like, spend a lot of time developing 'cause I did... I mean, when I played rugby, I did. I'd do some neck bridges and wrestlers' bridges, and like you'd ... Neck bridge and start bench pressing with the weight on there.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:03:21 But I hadn't done that in years, you know, 'cause I just like, uh ... So then, you know, when I got into jujitsu and I'd been doing... I'd, you know, two, two years into it basically, and then I just got dumped, man. I was just like ... You know, we were talking about that. I just got landed on my head.

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 Dropped on your head, yeah.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:03:33 Dropped on my head and flexed under me. A- And my ... 'Cause I'm about 250, 260, and the other guy was like, I don't know, 220, and it was just like that combined weight. It was just like, "Ah."

Joe Rogan 1:03:41 That's a lot of weight.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:03:42 Yeah, so it's one thing. So I want to-

Joe Rogan 1:03:43 Necks are a real problem.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:03:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 John John Machado always said, "Never trust your neck."

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:03:47 Yeah, yeah, so I-

Joe Rogan 1:03:48 Yeah, that's as-

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:03:49 So my goal is to make it as strong and as flexible-

Joe Rogan 1:03:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:03:52 ... and as bulletproof as possible before I go back. You know, 'cause I, I may go back to just doing some, like, drilling and stuff like that, but not the actual live rounds for a while. But, um, yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 Yeah, you just have to avoid aggravating it while it happens.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:04:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:03 My buddy, Shane Dorian, who's a big wave surfer, he just went down to, uh, the CPI in, uh, Tijuana, and they can do some wild shit down there. And they in- they inject... 'Cause that's part of the problem with it not being co- completely approved by the FDA, is they're limited in their applications.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:04:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:20 But in Mexico, they're not. And so they've had tremendous results. And they inject directly into the disks.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:04:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 They put you under, under anesthesia. They d- inject you directly into the, the disks and they told him, "Don't ... I don't want you doing anything for eight weeks." Nothing.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:04:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:35 You're walking. That's it. No, no ... Nothing straining.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:04:38 That's hard to do, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 It's hard to do, but it's-

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:04:40 It's hard.

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 It's important.

Dr. Shawn Baker 1:04:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 It's so hard for guys like you and I that work out all the time, but it's so important. And one of the things that I realized, I was getting,