Joe Rogan Experience #2091 - Diana Walsh Pasulka

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:12 It's a scary, it's a scary podcast for me, 'cause I feel like you're... because I know a lot of the things that you've said and I've related to them, and I've said, "Okay, this makes sense."

Joe Rogan 0:21 Why is that scary?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:24 Okay, so it's scary because it's not consensus reality. And, you know, because it's not consensus reality, we could talk about it over hot chocolate, in the fir- you know, near a fire or something.

Joe Rogan 0:37 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:37 But here we're talking about it and lots of people are going to be listening.

Joe Rogan 0:40 Yes.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:41 So that is somewhat-

Joe Rogan 0:43 Yeah. That's-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:43 ... scary. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:44 That's the hu- hurdle that we all have to get over, and the, the good thing about this is it really is just us talking.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 0:51 You know, and there are a lot of people that are going to listen, but they're just people too.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:55 That's true.

Joe Rogan 0:56 And-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:56 And they've probably had these experiences.

Joe Rogan 0:58 Some of them have.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 0:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:59 Yeah. The, the experiences that are, that are available through psychedelics, that I've always wondered, I mean, the thing that has always struck me about the UFO experience, uh, particularly the abduction experience is that it always happens when people are asleep, it always happens at night. It either happens on the road when people are tired and it's late at night, or it happens... Like, why does it have to happen at night? The universe doesn't give a shit what... where the sun is in position to the planet. Like that doesn't make any sense, that all these UFO abduction experiences would happen only when the sun is on the other side.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:39 That's so dumb. It makes no sense. It's literally s- it's such an egocentric, Earth-centric perspective that... And not even Earth-centric, uh, hemispherical-centric, right? It, it, it depends on where the sun is in position to the Earth. For that to be the only time that UFOs come, I was always like, "This seems like horseshit." There's something about it that seems like horseshit, but there's also something about it that seems real. When you listen to like Betty and Barney Hill, when they're, they're talking, boy that sounds like people talking about a real thing, boy that sounds like a real experience, it really does. And these people like the Whitley Strieberers, these people that talk about these experiences that happen at night, we know for a fact that when you are sleeping, your brain is producing endogenous psychedelic chemicals. We have no idea why. We have no idea what the purpose of those things are. We have no idea what the quantity is. We, we used to think, until recently, um, they weren't even exactly sure like where it was being produced, but now, uh, through Strassman's work and through the work of the Cottonwood Research Foundation, the, the, uh, people that do those DMT studies, they know that now your brain is producing this. And so is your brain, um, is it a... Is it producing a chemical gateway into another dimension? And is that why these people are experiencing these ab- abduction, l- you know, air quote, abduction experiences, these, these encounters, let's, let's say encounters, is that why they're happening at night? Is that why they're happening while they're lying in bed, because that seems to make way more sense?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 3:22 Yeah, that's a great question. I can talk a little bit about this.

Joe Rogan 3:26 Please.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 3:26 Okay, so I think that-

Joe Rogan 3:28 Can we... I think we're starting weird.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 3:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:30 Let's... Can we just start with how did you get involved in this?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 3:34 Okay.

Joe Rogan 3:34 And please just tell people your background.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 3:36 Okay, sure. So I'm a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina in Wilmington, and I grew up in California. And I've always... I've always been interested in these experiences about religion. And also I grew up... I was going to graduate school during the dot-com boom, so I saw how technology was changing everything. Our schools were the first to adopt computers and that type of thing. So what I did was, um, I was very interested in... I was working. You know, when your parents... you tell them you want to study religion and they're like, "Why not be a doctor?" Right? So, um, I was going to college but I kept taking courses in religion and philosophy, and when I got out, I got a job doing technology and things like that, and I made all right money, but I still read about religion and philosophy. So I figured if I could get scholarships to continue that I would, and I kept getting scholarships and that's how I got my PhD in religion. Uh, in, in religious studies, by the way, we actually were not ministers or anything like that. We don't advocate for any religious tradition, we study them. And since most people in the world are religious in some way, it's, it's a good thing to know. Um, but how did I get into studying UFOs? So I studied Christian history and that's what I did for a long time until I was what's called a full professor. You can't go any higher. You're a full professor, that's it. And, um, I started... I studied these things called ascent narratives. So ascent narratives are when people levitate in the, you know, Christian tradition, people either levitate or they have... Uh, they see things that they call angels or demons and things like this, and I always studied them from a historical perspective. And I found that going through, looking at these ascent narratives through the historical record at the Vatican actually, I kept coming across aerial phenomena in the historical records from a thousand years ago, from 500 years ago, from, you know, very recently. And I recognize that this was happening in, in UFO literature, and so I started to look at abductions and UFO sightings and things like that and I, I wanted to do a cross-cultural analysis of this. Um, and that was in 2012, and that's how I got into this. I just want to point out that not all abductions happen in your sleep. A lot of ad- abductions actually happen in daylight. Um, but I do agree with you that something's happening in your brain and you're, you're perceiving something, and you called it is there some type of mental gateway. And I think there's absolutely-... a mental gateway. Um, does this discount that these- this is objective of us? Like, you know, the question is, is this something subjective or this- is this something objective of us? My opinion at this point is it's something that is objective of us. Um, there's- there's something that we're accessing, and I don't think it's- it's within our space-time reality, um, to tell you the truth.

Joe Rogan 6:32 So, you think it's from somewhere else?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:34 I do, um, but that doesn't... I mean, it doesn't have to be a location, you know, a geography.

Joe Rogan 6:40 Mm-hmm. Right. That's where it gets weird.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:42 It gets totally weird, but so does quantum physics. Quantum physics is totally weird.

Joe Rogan 6:46 It's the weirdest stuff ever.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:48 And it's completely accepted-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:51 ... that you could have something that exists in one place and also in another place, that something-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:55 Now it is.

Joe Rogan 6:55 ... moving-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:55 Now it's completely accepted.

Joe Rogan 6:57 ... and also still.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:58 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 6:58 The Nobel Prize in, what was it, 2022, was about that.

Joe Rogan 7:02 Yeah, which is like, "What are you saying? You're saying witchcraft's real?" (laughs) Like what is- what are you saying?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 7:07 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:07 Magic is real?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 7:08 (laughs) I think so a- well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:08 Quantum physics is the nuttiest stuff of all time.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 7:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:11 I've had a hundred people explain it to me. I don't get it still.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 7:14 Yeah. Well, see, okay, so you were talking about accessing this- this space, and if I can go back to something you were talking about, about... And I'm going to say this. So, what I found was- and I had this experience too when I was around 13 years old. I felt like the- the world was going to end. I felt like there was going to be some kind of war, and it was a visceral feeling. It wasn't something that... It was something that made me depressed as a child. And it- it was real. I believed it was going to happen, and I- I believed it was going to happen at any time. Um, well, this... After studying religion and studying... By the way, this kind of prompted me into studying religion, and recognizing that, you know, if you look at, say, Christianity or even other religions, people had ideas that the world was going to end, and extinction events have happened and things like that. So, it could very well be that information like this is coming to us, but it's out of our space-time. So, to us, it seems like it's going to happen now, because our sense is of linear time, right? So, if we get a feeling and it's not from any of the input that we're getting, like our, you know, people telling us this is actually going to happen in the news, telling us this is actually going to happen, but it's coming to us as this feeling that you and I were just talking about, um, it could be coming from that space that we've just identified as, you know, people are talking about. Um, and- and yeah, I think that we're at the very beginning of doing a taxonomy or, you know, looking at this space in terms of the scientists that you just referenced and people that... You know, I think that actually people have... You know, indigenous cultures talk about this space, they have language about this space. They talked about this in encounters that, you know, religious traditions do talk about these spaces, but in secular culture, we've lost that language.

Joe Rogan 9:09 Well, it's- it is interesting that that language exists when you're discussing things like quantum physics-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 9:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:15 ... because that is a language of like- You know, it's a bizarre, non-tangible, impossible to understand to the- to the layperson when you're explaining that these things are all interacting with each other without physical contact. Like, what do you- like, what do you mean? Like, what are you saying? Like, can you show me these things? Are there photos of them? No, we're just drawing. We're- we're writing it down on paper. We're pretty sure we have these equations and we know what it is. Like, what?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 9:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:48 Like, why am I supposed to believe you? Because you guys are PhDs? Like what? This is nuts.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 9:53 B-

Joe Rogan 9:53 Like, but because-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 9:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:55 ... this is like a- a field of science, this is a field of study that's universally accepted, we have- we've like given them a pass to talk about crazy stuff. But if you want to talk about crazy things in terms of encountering some sort of thing, some entity, some consciousness that exists in an alternative realm that has access to this realm occasionally, or perhaps that you can transcend your normal state of consciousness and access this other realm occasionally through some methods, whether it's through meditation, through psychedelic trips, through something, l- near-death experiences, something happens that perturbs the normal state of reality, and you have brief access to this transcendent experience that everyone has talked about, all of the great prophets, all of the- the great saints and religious figures have talked about from the beginning of written history.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 11:07 Yeah. So, I think that it's not just that we give those physics guys a pass, and girls. Okay? We just don't... What they produce actually is- creates our world, right? The computers we look at and the technologies we use, even the structures we live in. And so this is what prompted me to go back into our historical record, like, and look at, like, the writings of Plato again, and some of- you know, some of these people that you're talking about, like the- the great minds, right? And I recognize that, say, Plato, who writes about his mentor, Socrates, who's, by the way, killed by his country- you know, was killed by Athens, the, uh, town he lives in. Not the town, but the state he lives in. And he's- he's, uh- he's executed, um, for being an atheist, by the way. And if you look at what he's talking about, he's actually talking about this space.He's actually talking about having a vision of something that we can't see. And he calls it the good, and he says, "It's, it's the best thing." Okay? And he's, he says, "It m- It makes you do things that are just." And you don't do them because they're the right thing to do; you do them because you really want to do them. And so to me, this is, I thought this was fascinating, so I went back and I recognized that he was what's called a math realist. So, he believed that... And he was one of the first people... Well, not just him, but people, you know, were talking about the, you know, 300s before the Common Era, so m- many, many, many years ago. He's already identifying these things called Platonic solids that now we can prove exist. But we're, we weren't able to prove them. So, he was using, and he even has this language too, Joe. He has this language. He says that we can actually, we can actually perceive these through our minds. But it's not normal intellect. It's not your normal abstract thinking.

Joe Rogan 13:10 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 13:10 But it's a type of thinking, and he relates it to protocols, like physical protocols. Like, did you know he was a wrestler?

Joe Rogan 13:18 No, I didn't.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 13:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:19 Oh, I did know that. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 13:21 Yeah. In fact-

Joe Rogan 13:21 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 13:22 ... his name even means that he's really not just a wrestler, but an awesome wrestler. So-

Joe Rogan 13:27 Socrates, that name? Or-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 13:28 No, no, Plato.

Joe Rogan 13:29 Oh, sorry.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 13:30 Yeah. These guys were all physical. They were all... They, it was basically this like philosophy cl- almost like a fight club, I think. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:38 (laughs)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 13:38 These guys, you know, they were like, they were wrestlers. And you know, they believed that this was good. They believed that these protocols help- helped them use their brains to access this, the good.

Joe Rogan 13:51 Um, so what was the methodology behind that? Was it the breaking down of the normal states of consciousness through rigorous exercise and exertion?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 14:03 Th- That's my opinion.

Joe Rogan 14:04 Like a runner's high?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 14:06 Yeah, that's my opinion.

Joe Rogan 14:07 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 14:07 Yeah. So, I, when I talk about it... 'Cause I like to teach my students about this, because honestly think that this is what progresses civilization, this kind of thing. So, I think, um, when I did American Cosmic, which is the first book about UFOs, again, which I never thought I'd be studying, I encountered this man, Tyler. And, um, and he's, he works for the Space Force, and he's been working for the Space Force since the wh- the whole space shuttle program, okay? And he's a special kind of person. He's a mission controller, but he does a lot of other things too. But he's also a multimillionaire space rocket scientist. I mean, just so strange. (laughs) And, and I called him Tyler after the character in Fight Club, because that's who he reminded me of. He reminded me of that character in Fight Club. Because he had this... First of all, he has more than 44 patents, and they're all related to space. And, and the Space Force has a special place for him. Like, he's special, right? What I found was that he was practicing these types of protocols. I call them protocols because they reminded me of Plato and monastic traditions, the traditions of monks and things. So, um, he would make sure that he got sunshine. He would make sure that he got plenty of sleep. Um, he would not have too much caffeine. Um, he exercised a lot. Uh, he boxed, right? So, he was also a fighter. And he tried to stay away from people. I know it sounds weird, but that's what monks do. They try to stay... You know, they try to like monitor their input of people.

Joe Rogan 15:40 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 15:41 Because those people can actually take them off their game, or something like that. But so this guy was put into a- another mental state, and during this mental state, he said that he could receive calculations, he could receive information, he could receive things, and then he c- he could gather a group of scientists, and he wouldn't tell them where he came from, 'cause he honestly thought they were coming from, um, these things outside of spacetime, kind of like ETs or something, off-planet intelligences.

Joe Rogan 16:11 Which Tesla also believed.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 16:13 And our, the people who started our own Space Force believed it. So, this isn't common knowledge. That's what I found, is like a lot of people aren't, they don't know this history of the American Space Force and the Russian Space Force, very much the same. These people were doing these things. And this allowed them... You see this in sports, right? So, people... I was just using this example in a class yesterday. Um, I saw this basketball game two or three years ago with Steph Curry, and you know, the way they were playing, it was almost as if there was an emergent phenomena that was bigger than each of the people, 'cause they somehow anticipated what the other guy was going to do.

Joe Rogan 16:50 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 16:50 And I w- I used to do sports, and I know that this is something that can be done. Um, there's a flow state, right?

Joe Rogan 16:56 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 16:57 And I think that this is what Plato was trying to get his, his group into, through these protocols.

Joe Rogan 17:03 W- Well, that makes sense. It's... And one of the things that happens in flow state is that you stop being there.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:10 That's right.

Joe Rogan 17:10 Yeah, it's not you.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:12 And you're just experiencing this thing.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:14 Totally, yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Yeah. You, you experience it on stage doing standup. You, you-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:21 I, I imagine that.

Joe Rogan 17:21 When you do it right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:22 When you get it right-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:23 ... you're on a ride.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:25 Like, you're just like sort of like making sure that, "Okay, feed this into the machine, and go," and it goes. And then, and you're sort of like you're in tune with what you're saying, but you're almost outside of yourself.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:39 That's exactly right. And you know, there is science that shows that this is the case.

Joe Rogan 17:43 Mm-hmm. Right, with, with brainwaves.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:46 Yeah. The problem is, is that there... Like, when Joe's out there on stage, they're not going to hook you up to a- an MRI, right?

Joe Rogan 17:54 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 17:54 They can't do that kind of... 'Cause when it's happening, it's happening spontaneously. It just happens, and no one can actually predict when it's going to happen. But you hope that it happens.

Joe Rogan 18:03 And also, if they did hook you up to it, you would also be aware that you're being monitored-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 18:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:07 ... and it would change the state.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 18:07 And you'd lose it. Yeah, you'd lose it.

Joe Rogan 18:09 Yeah. It's like when you're in a, a lucid dream, and you go, "Oh my God, I'm in a lucid dream," and then pff, wake up.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 18:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:14 Dammit.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 18:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:15 I've, I've had that happen so many times, where like, wow, I'm ... And I know there's a way to, um, facilitate lucid dreams. I know there's a study behind it, but I've never ... I've, for whatever reason, it seems so stupid that I've never done it, but I've never even had the desire to do it. I just l- like, want it to come to me when it comes to me. Which is dumb. I n-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 18:36 Not necessarily. That's, I, I respect that.

Joe Rogan 18:38 Yeah, but a part of me doesn't. Part of me is like, "You're just lazy. Why don't you just, like, go, like, start the practice and study it, and figure out how to make it happen more often?" You know? But for whatever reason, I have zero desire to (laughs) do that. I don't know why.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 18:54 I would, I, there might be some wisdom there.

Joe Rogan 18:56 (clicks tongue) I don't know. Yeah, I'm, I b- I go back and forth with whether or not it's laziness. I don't know what it is. You know, but there's, there's obviously a, a fascinating aspect to lucid dreaming, to, like, what is going on there?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:12 Like, how are you-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:13 Oh, definitely.

Joe Rogan 19:14 ... managing this weird thing? That, for most of us, you wake up and you go, "God, what the hell was that? What the f- why was Godzilla in my dream?"

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 19:22 "You know, why, why was I on a skateboard?" (laughs)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:24 That's right.

Joe Rogan 19:25 It's this, like, weirdness to it. And then there's people that try to interpret that with, uh, b- like, far too much confidence-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:32 Yes, I think so, too.

Joe Rogan 19:33 ... in what that means.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:33 I think so, too.

Joe Rogan 19:34 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:34 So, in, um, in Tibet there's a Tibetan dream yoga.

Joe Rogan 19:38 Ooh.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:39 And that's what they do. They basically teach you how to do ... And you have to have a teacher, by the way.

Joe Rogan 19:44 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:44 'Cause they say it, it can be dangerous.

Joe Rogan 19:46 Dangerous?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:46 So, yeah. So I think that's probably why you think you're not doing it. 'Cause I don't think you're lazy, frankly. Like, I know the kinds of things you do. I know that y- you, that's not part ... So-

Joe Rogan 19:55 (inhales deeply) Yeah, but I am lazy. That's what's crazy.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 19:58 Well, I mean-

Joe Rogan 19:59 I really am. I'm lazy but I'm disciplined.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:01 Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:02 I'm both of those things. Like, I do all the things that I'm supposed to do, but God, it's a slodge. It's a struggle. It's like, "Ugh." But I always do 'em.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:11 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, that's, that, you'd, you'd be up for Plato's ... He'd, he'd invite you to his school.

Joe Rogan 20:18 (clicks tongue) The only time things are not a struggle is when, like, like, when I was competing. When I was competing, then my discipline wasn't a struggle. Then it was an obsession, so it was like, people would say, "God, he's so disciplined." Like, "No, I'm mentally ill. I'm crazy."

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:35 Yeah. I understand that.

Joe Rogan 20:36 Is that ... See, there's a giant difference between discipl- like, Mike Tyson said this, on the podcast, he said, "Discipline is doing something you hate but doing it like you love it."

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:46 That's right.

Joe Rogan 20:46 Yeah. So when you love it, it's not really discipline.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:50 No, it's not.

Joe Rogan 20:50 It's obsession.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:51 Ex- yeah, and-

Joe Rogan 20:52 It, there's a different thing to that.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:54 Yeah. That's what I was telling you about when I saw your picture out there of, uh, Jimi Hendrix.

Joe Rogan 20:58 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 20:59 And I was, when I was a kid, I was an artist. I really liked to do art. And I remember the first time I became obsessed was when I was doing this, this drawing of Jimi Hendrix.

Joe Rogan 21:11 Mm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:11 And I, I was, uh, it, I went on- it went on for about a week. And my parents were like, "What are you doing?" You know. And I was, I was just obsessed with getting it correct. It had to be absolutely correct.

Joe Rogan 21:23 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:23 And I did get it correct, and it was pretty amazing. And I gave it-

Joe Rogan 21:26 Did you have it?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:26 No, I g- I always give my stuff away, so-

Joe Rogan 21:28 Do you have a photo of it or anything?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:29 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 21:30 Damn.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:30 This was, like, pre-cellphones.

Joe Rogan 21:32 Oh.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:32 So I gave it to my best friend.

Joe Rogan 21:34 Oh, that's cool.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:34 And I don't, I don't regret it.

Joe Rogan 21:37 That's cool.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:37 Yeah. But, I mean, it was the experience, though, that was the best part of it.

Joe Rogan 21:42 Yeah. I, the reason why this podcast is called The Joe Rogan Experience is because I think Jimi Hendrix is a religious figure.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 21:50 He is. He absolutely is.

Joe Rogan 21:52 I think, I mean, the guy died at 27. Which, when I was 27, I was a fucking moron. I'd never done anything good. This guy had transcended the normal boundaries of what music was, and had tapped into something, whatever it was. But when you listen to Voodoo Child-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 22:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:14 ... to this day ... I mean, I've listened to that song thousands of times. But, like, if I'm on my way to go do something cool and I listen to that song, like, loud in my car, it just, like, it's, it's, there's ... He tapped into something that was just out of this realm. Inaccessible to the average person that plays a guitar. Inaccessible to the average artist. He hit some crazy vibration. And I've always got that feeling when I listen to his stuff. It's, it's always, like, moved me in a very weird way, where I'm just completely captivated. Like, immersed in the sounds, immersed in his, in his music.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 22:58 Me too. Um, so he, I think he, well, I, he knew that he d- was doing that. So he, as you know, I'm sure you know this, but, um, you know, he had a guitar when he was five. And he, he was so good at it, he was immediately, like, he f- it f- he streamed sacred information through his music, and he knew he did. He called it his electric church.

Joe Rogan 23:22 Mm. Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 23:24 So he knew he did that. And, um, how incredible. And yes, we can hear it.

Joe Rogan 23:30 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 23:30 And I think, and, uh, I think, I think probably part of the reason I, I felt that when I listened to his music and I somehow f- put that into his, t- that picture. That f- that drawing that I made. And, and it las- and it was a beautiful experience. And that was ... You know, I mean, I mean, it sounds so strange, but that's part of the reason why I was interested in studying religion and things like that. Because of, of that experience.

Joe Rogan 23:57 Yeah, that you're tapping into something that's higher than normal consciousness.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 24:02 ... yes, and it's pretty cool. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:05 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 24:06 It's exactly what Plato said it was. It's- it's you do it for its own sake. You don't do it for anything else.

Joe Rogan 24:12 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 24:12 You do it because of it. You don't do it because, "After this, I'm going to make a lot of money," or, you know, "After this, uh, it'll make my parents happy." Or after- you don't do it for those reasons. You do it for in and of itself.

Joe Rogan 24:23 Well, the people that I know that do do it for those reasons, "I'm going to be famous, I'm going to be this, I'm going to be that," they never make it. There's something about it.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 24:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:30 They just don't. They just don't. S- maybe some of them will become pop stars. Like, someone will plug them into the right songwriter and the right producer and- and they'll figure it out, but it'll never be transcendent. It might be catchy, it might be okay, but there's not- it's not Hendrix.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 24:48 N- no.

Joe Rogan 24:49 No.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 24:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:49 Yeah. There- that- that kind of g- what we like to call genius, like what i- what is that? But it's not- I mean, clearly it's him. He's a vessel. He's a- a- a receiver, an antenna, whatever he is. But he's getting something from a higher state.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 25:10 No doubt.

Joe Rogan 25:10 And the wildest thing, when people- what I always want to tell people about Hendrix and a lot of the particularly impactful people from the 1960s is that you have to understand how different the '60s were from the '50s. Like, the difference between 2014 and 2024 is nil. There's very little difference, other than the ubiquitous, uh, technology, AI, things that are much more powerful than they ever b- were before, the impact of social media. But there was an impact of social media even 10 years ago, right? There's something about the '60s that were very different than the '50s. And I connect it to psychedelic use, 'cause all of those people were doing psychedelics, all of them, all those transcendent people, all- The Beatles, when the Beatles ch- from their early days to the psychedelic days, it was like a completely different band, like completely different style of music.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 26:09 Yes.

Joe Rogan 26:09 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 26:09 That's right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:10 Completely different impact. There was something about it. What- what- what had happened in the 1960s was a s- a stunning revolution in culture.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 26:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 26:20 And it's hard for us to understand it, because we didn't- we weren't teenagers when that was happening.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 26:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:26 You know, I was- I wasn't even born when Hendrix was in his prime, or I was just, you know, a baby. When you listen to that now, it's hard to put it into context of how revolutionary that was.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 26:39 I think you're right. I- for most people, I think that's- unless you lived through it, right?

Joe Rogan 26:44 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 26:45 And, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:46 And that's also the terrifying aspect of what government can do. Because through the Sweeping Psychedelics Act of 1970, they made everything illegal, and they did it to squash dissent. They did it to stop the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, and they did it to- so that they could arrest all these people that were involved in all of these groups, 'cause all of them were involved in drugs. And so they figured, "Well, this is the best way to just make everything il- it's obviously it's people are doing acid and ruining our country. Let's- let's make everything illegal, and then lock everybody up that does it." And then you get the '80s.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 27:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:25 And the '80s is like this confused child that was raised improperly, was then cast out into the world with a distorted sense of values, that was like e- expressing these values in like th- some of the most clumsy and goofy art human beings have ever done.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 27:43 And the drugs changed. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:44 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, they became-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 27:47 So, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:47 ... ego-driven drugs. The worst kind of drugs.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 27:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:49 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 27:49 So, you know, it's really interesting, 'cause that wouldn't be the- that- the '60s wouldn't be the only culture that's informed by psychedelics, right?

Joe Rogan 27:57 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 27:57 Or entheogens, you know, as they're called, and Native American churches are, you know, that. But, what's interesting to me, and I don't know if you have any ideas about this, is that most likely it was through the government that the drugs became available.

Joe Rogan 28:13 Sure. Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 28:14 And then once the effects seemed to be counter to how, who knows? Maybe there were just two factions of government, one that was pro, "You know, let's see (laughs) what happens."

Joe Rogan 28:25 (laughs)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 28:26 "You know, let's do this experiment." And then the other was, "You know, push back, and you know, let's- let's change the- the- you know, change the culture, through taking- you know, making these illegal."

Joe Rogan 28:37 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 28:38 But what you see now is you definitely see a- a- you know, using these for therapeutic purposes.

Joe Rogan 28:44 Mm-hmm. Yeah. The, um, the MKUltra experiments. When you realize what the government was involved with and what they were doing, how they were running the Haight-Ashbury free clinic, and they were administering psychedelics to people in brothels without their knowledge and- and observing them, and- and what they did with Charles Manson, it's very well detailed. I don't know if you've read, um, Tom O'Neil's book, Chaos.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 29:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:13 Have you read that?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 29:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:14 Insane.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 29:15 Yeah, I know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:16 It's i- insane.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 29:17 It's so-

Joe Rogan 29:17 Because Tom is so-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 29:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:19 ... detail-oriented. I mean, he's so crazy that he studied this one thing for 20 years, t- like, and really kind of like tanked his life, you know, and then finally got the book out there, and the book is just holy shit.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 29:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:31 Because it's- what- what the facts, the absolute undeniable facts in that book, just those alone, forget speculation, b- forget theory, just the facts alone are insane.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 29:42 Yes.

Joe Rogan 29:42 They most likely created Charles Manson, most likely gave him psychedelics, gave him LSD, taught him how to mind control influential young people, or, uh, easily influenced young people, and get them to do horrific things, and demonize the hippie movement.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 30:01 Yeah, it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Joe Rogan 30:02 Yeah. Like what's going on right now.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 30:04 That's exactly what I think. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:05 I don't think they're as good right now.I think right now, they're- they're baffled by this thing called the internet. And I think the internet threw a giant monkey wrench in propaganda, because it- it made people s- so much more resistant to bullshit.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 30:21 Yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:22 Ther- and- and then the- when you see things like, especially coming out of the pandemic, when you see how incompetent these people that are supposed to be leaders are, and how foolhardy they are, and how stupid their decisions were, and then you just look at the undeniable transfer of wealth to the upper small area of the country that gained billions of dollars in wealth, and how much it devastated small businesses, and, like, did you guys do this on purpose? Like, do you know what you're doing? Are you idiots? Like, why are you telling us what to do? You guys are fools. And especially when it comes to, uh, d- like, uh, is- does anybody believe that Joe Biden's ever had a transcendent experience? Does anybody believe that Joe Biden has ever, like, met God and- and came back with a- a message for mankind? No. It's like everything is, like, bizarre, ego-driven, narrative-driven lies and propaganda and just nonsense that's supposed to make it look like they're doing the right thing always.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 31:26 Yeah, that's the- that's a terrible idea of justice.

Joe Rogan 31:29 Yes.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 31:30 But it's the appearance of justice-

Joe Rogan 31:32 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 31:32 ... without actually doing the right thing.

Joe Rogan 31:33 Yeah, and it's- it's- it's just a- I mean, it's also very- it's, uh, got all the aspects of a cult. All- th- the people that go along with it, no matter what the evidence shows, the people- the people that aren't, like, stepping back and going, "Wait a minute. We are- we are being run by f- people that have zero feelings for the- the actual populace," and all they're trying to do is feed this machine that's got them to where they are in the first place.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 32:01 Yeah. It's, uh, terrible.

Joe Rogan 32:02 It's terrible-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 32:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:03 ... and it's- it- it, as it moves forward, it creates the need for resistance, and it creates the n- and th- that's what I've always thought about evil and- and- and negative things in the first place. Like, they are necessary because they motivate change, and they motivate evolution. They motivate expression of- of dis- of d- disdain, of- of d- people that are completely displeased, people that are very upset with the way things are. They know this is the wrong way.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 32:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:37 And it motivates th- th- the- the zeitgeist to move into a different direction-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 32:43 I-

Joe Rogan 32:43 ... which I think is happening.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 32:45 I hear that. Um, this was, uh, actually a comment from a student, the exact same comment that you just said, is that, you know, there's this structural evil, right?

Joe Rogan 32:53 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 32:53 There's this evil, and it actually does some good in the sense that it motivates people to transform.

Joe Rogan 33:00 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 33:01 Okay. I mean, yeah. I agree with you. Um, and I'm at the same point. So through th- through my looking at the UFO phenomena, and, you know, I knew all of this. I- I grew up in Northern California. You know, there w- there were the, uh, the grove- the, um, I can't think of the name. It's right above where I live. Um, the Bohemian Grove.

Joe Rogan 33:25 Mm. Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 33:25 You know, so I kind of already had an idea of this kind of thing. Um, you know, of the- the group, the cult, as you call it.

Joe Rogan 33:33 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 33:34 All right? And it's easy to see. Um, well, for those who have- who can see it, it's easy to see. Some people don't want to see it.

Joe Rogan 33:42 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 33:42 Okay. So once you see it, you're like, "Okay." Um, but then, to live it, to- this is what I felt like happened to me. So in 2012, after I started this study of UFOs, I recognized that the management of that- that message of U- the UFO for the American public had been st- organized not just from the 1940s, but really from earlier, from th- from early 20- 20th century. And once I started to recognize and even meet the people who were responsible for managing this in a very cohesive, tight way, very specific, that's when I recognized that it was- that, you know, I felt- I felt it. I guess that's the difference, was that before, I just saw it on the sideline, you know?

Joe Rogan 34:26 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 34:27 Like we talk about it now, you and I, and it looks like we're talking about it from the sideline. We're saying, "Yeah, this is really bad what they're doing," and stuff, but I was part of it. I- I saw it. I s- I know those people. They talked to me about it. They talked to me about why they were doing it. And they said, "Diana, you- you don't want to help these people. They will kill you if they- if they h- you had something that- that they wanted." Like, "These are not good people," is what they were saying about-

Joe Rogan 34:51 These people specifically?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 34:52 ... the general population. They were talking about the general population.

Joe Rogan 34:55 The general population would kill you?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 34:57 That's what they were saying. They were saying that these people only do good because they have to do good. They are actually bad. And so this was the argument I was getting.

Joe Rogan 35:05 (laughs)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 35:05 So it- so it caused me to eject these people from my life, for one, but also to- to g- do- you know, to understand more deeply, and believe me, I've already thought a lot about the problem of evil. You know, I've spent my life reading about it and doing- you know, talking about it with people, and, you know, what can we do? I recognize we can't do anything except work on ourselves. And that's where I had to reread some of those texts, like the Plato text that I talked about, who- he talks about your idea of evil, that, you know, perhaps- or he calls it injustice, unjustice. Um, and he says that perhaps people are unjust just because, you know, there n- needs to be a- injustice for other people to like recognize it, and then to do this thing. You know, how do we create a just society? That's his question.

Joe Rogan 35:56 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 35:57 And I don't think h- he- so he doesn't actually answer that question with words.

Joe Rogan 36:01 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 36:01 But he does it through giving stories. And one of the stories is the allegory of the cave, where, you know, the allegory is- it's like The Matrix, right? It's like, you know, where people are in- they're being tied up, and there's puppeteers who are showing them these shadows on the wall, and they take that for reality, but somehow some person gets out and they see. Well, what he's talking about is this mystical tradition that you and I have talked about.... early, when we started talking.

Joe Rogan 36:28 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 36:28 We talked about if we do those things that we love and we're carried away and we become, you called th- you said it was obsessed, you know, you're obsessed with it, and I call it doing it because it's pretty awesome, right? That's my word for it.

Joe Rogan 36:41 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 36:42 When you do that, justice happens. Like, you're not worried about, you know ... So, so, we l- so, it's almost like a- an emergent phenomena from these communities that do it, and they're small communities. So, there is structural injustice and there's structural evil, and it doesn't seem like we can fight ... That's what I learned from doing the UFO. I, I learned that there were these things, UFOs, but more intensely and more personally, I learned that the government was doing this, and that's what was upsetting to me most.

Joe Rogan 37:13 So, I want to take it back there, 'cause a lot of this is probably hard to follow for people that aren't, like, well-read in this. When you say that they have been engineering or o- orchestrating public perception of this experience from the beginning, what's the earliest known instance of this?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 37:34 Okay, so the one that is unclassified is Project Blue Book.

Joe Rogan 37:38 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 37:38 And that's from 1950s, 1952. But I know that, and I, and, and I have to explain how one knows this. So, we have documents that talk about Project Blue Book, and that's them manage ... You know, they're managing the perception, the public perception, of UFOs. Goes back to, like, '47, even-

Joe Rogan 37:58 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 37:58 ... with Roswell and, and that kind of thing. Um, there's another, and this is what t- m- this is what I've found, is that there's an oral tradition that is part of the communities that run this, run these programs, like the UFO programs, right? Um, and that i- that c- information is carried within people. It's not written down. They even have a word for not writing it down. When they're going to have these meetings, they, they have this special term and everybody puts down everything, you know?

Joe Rogan 38:35 What's the term?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 38:36 I don't ... It's called, it's called pencils up.

Joe Rogan 38:40 Pencils up?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 38:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:41 So, pencils up means they're just going to discuss these things, and then the ... That's the only record of it?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 38:48 It's, yeah, it's the oral tradition. Now, why I was able to look at this, is because I had done work looking at oral traditions in religious, in religious communities. Like, oral traditions go back 10,000 years, whereas, you know, written traditions are, like, 2,000 years old. Oral traditions are actually more accurate than we think they are. We tend to think of it as telephone game, um, but you can get a lot of information from oral traditions, and this is actually how a lot of classified information is kept, through oral tradition.

Joe Rogan 39:20 Especially in a very disciplined and structured environment, like high-level military.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 39:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:27 So, so they have a perception, and one of the things that you said earlier is that they think that the, the, the greater go- the, the greater population is not good and that they will turn on you and that they're evil and that they'll ...

Diana Walsh Pasulka 39:40 Well, that's one faction.

Joe Rogan 39:42 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 39:42 So, what I found was that there were several different factions within the perception management of UFOs. And one of the factions was responsible for, sadly, harassing people who do research, and I found this out by being harassed (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 40:00 How, how so? How were you harassed?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 40:01 Okay, so, you know, here I am, just your average professor doing their work.

Joe Rogan 40:07 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 40:07 And, you know, and doing it pretty well. Um, at my university, uh, I was the chair of my department, um, well-regarded by my colleagues and students, and never really doing anything weird, right? Um, and then I start to study UFOs, thinking that they're not real, thinking that it's a, it's just a form, a new form of religion.

Joe Rogan 40:28 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 40:29 And then, quickly having people come into my sphere, research ph- sphere, who are, you know, part of CIA, part of FBI, that kind of thing, and then getting a shock that, you know, whoa, this could be dangerous and maybe I shouldn't be doing this. And thinking, you know, but, uh-

Joe Rogan 40:47 Uh, uh, just simply because those people are contacting you, or specific reasons why you would think it's dangerous?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 40:53 It indicated to me that there was something that I shouldn't maybe be doing, that it could be dangerous.

Joe Rogan 40:58 Right, that you could suffer consequences for your curiosity or for your research?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:03 And that they would punish you, or you could be punished, or you could be targeted?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:06 That's what I thought. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:08 Yeah. No, most certainly. Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:09 And plus, I had done some research on UFOs by that time, of course, and-

Joe Rogan 41:13 But what is it about the research and what is about what you could possibly uncover that would be so dangerous?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:22 Okay. So, of course, that's a question that's loaded.

Joe Rogan 41:26 Yes.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:26 So, I'm going to talk a little bit about s- uh, I'll answer it in part.

Joe Rogan 41:31 Okay.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:32 So, in part, this is before crash retrieval became a term that the Congress used.

Joe Rogan 41:40 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:40 So, I was, um-

Joe Rogan 41:41 What year are we talking about?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:43 So, I started in 2012.

Joe Rogan 41:45 Okay.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 41:45 By 2015 and '16, I was already in full shock mode of, wow, this is bigger than I thought, and I was n- had been invited to go to a crash retrieval spot in New Mexico, uh, that was under a no-fly zone, and I still didn't believe the- when UFOs at this point. You have to understand that. So I di- I just thought that this ... I thought, the person inviting me is Tyler. He's a scientist. He works for-

Joe Rogan 42:12 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 42:13 ... the Space Force. Um, he believes this, and I'm wondering, how does he even believe that this is real? We're, we're going with Gary Nolan, who's from Stanford, and he's out, um, but at the time, h- I called him James in my book.And I am- I'm the one actually who invited him to go, (laughs) 'cause I didn't really want to go by myself.

Joe Rogan 42:32 (laughs)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 42:32 You know? And so, I insisted that Gary go with me, and Tyler figured out who Gary was and he said okay. So we went out there. We had to actually wear blindfolds, and it was out in the middle of this place in New Mexico. I don't know where. Um, I know what was near it, but I don't know where the actual place was, and we were looking for parts, right? That had been put out there. And during the time period... So I think part of it was... The danger was that parts exist, right? So s- s- things like this do exist, and there are anomalous materials. Uh, this is what I was finding out, and I think that this was what... I'm an okay researcher. It's not like I would make this up, nor would I lie. Um, you know, I'm- I'm publishing with Oxford so uh, my reputation is at stake, right? So I'm doing the best I can to kind of adjudicate, like am I being fed disinformation or, you know, what's going on? Gary, now, will be able to identify by taking these parts back and analyzing them through his laboratories, um, whether or not they're engineered or not.

Joe Rogan 43:38 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 43:39 And um, and he's been doing that ever since. So these are the kinds of things that I would've found out. I think part of it was also that I was finding out that there was an oral tradition and that the perception management was very tight.

Joe Rogan 43:53 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 43:54 And I think this is what they were afraid, but I've said this now publicly, so...

Joe Rogan 44:00 So-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:00 But I- I did get harassed though. I did get harassed, and it still happens.

Joe Rogan 44:05 Oh, how'd you get harassed?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:06 Most of it is um, doxing and uh, email harassment at my university began and um, both to me and Gary at the same time, and people showing up. Um-

Joe Rogan 44:21 People?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:21 Yeah, people in my town showing up.

Joe Rogan 44:23 Like what kind of people? Schizophrenics?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:26 No, but-

Joe Rogan 44:27 No?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:28 (laughs) No, but people you wouldn't want to meet.

Joe Rogan 44:30 Loons?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:31 Loons?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:31 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:31 Do you- do you think that's targeted? Do you think that's on purpose?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:33 Oh, it's for sure. It-

Joe Rogan 44:35 But do- but do you think that also that might just be people that are obsessed with this particular subject?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:39 No, these are people that are affiliated with the people in those, that, in-

Joe Rogan 44:44 Okay.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:45 Yeah. I mean, there's just no doubt.

Joe Rogan 44:47 So, tell me about the crash retrieval site.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 44:50 Yeah. So this is in... Okay, so now you have to understand, this is a long time period. So I start this in 2012. I get this shock where I'm being, you know... People are asking me to meet, you know, people from these programs and from the Space Force, and I'm actually not meeting with them because I'm waiting. I'm- I'm kind of thinking. I've got to think this through. Um, it wasn't until about 2014 that I actually start to meet the people, like the um, affiliated people. And they show me some things and they, you know, they- they asked me to go to this crash retrieval site in New Mexico.

Joe Rogan 45:27 Now is this a recent crash?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:29 No, it's a- it's... Okay, so this crash is part of a- a series of crashes that happened in the 1940s.

Joe Rogan 45:36 So the Roswell?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:37 It wasn't Roswell, actually. It was one of the crash sites that's near... It's in New Mexico, but it's not Roswell.

Joe Rogan 45:44 So there was more than one crash in New Mexico?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:46 Yeah, I think... They said-

Joe Rogan 45:47 Allegedly.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:47 They... Allegedly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:48 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:48 They said that there were probably four.

Joe Rogan 45:50 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:50 Maybe even more. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 45:52 What a bunch of shitty UFOs, keeping crashing.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:54 I know, I know. That's what... Well, they don't believe that they crashed. They- they use that term.

Joe Rogan 45:58 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 45:58 But they don't- they don't think it's a crash. They think that it's... They personally, I'll tell you from a r- a professor's standpoint like, their idea of this is that it's a donation. They call it the donation site.

Joe Rogan 46:11 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 46:11 So they think that these were donated materials and they're going to get information, and they do. And um, that's how Tyler was able to create a lot of- of the things that he created in, you know, through... And he would fly these on the space shuttle by the way, uh, these experiments and- and so forth. It was very, very fascinating to me. I mean, I think anybody would be fascinated with it to tell you the truth.

Joe Rogan 46:34 When you say fly these, you don't mean physical materials?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 46:37 So he would have an idea that he would get through these protocols that I told you about.

Joe Rogan 46:42 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 46:42 So he practices these protocols and it would be related to something that he would then want to fly in the space shuttle, because a- s- this was during the time the space shuttle was happening, and the space shuttle had anti-gravity environments. And he needed these environments in order to create this. And now this is actually a whole field called biologics. So there's- there's a real field now that, where people are doing these experiments in space and creating things that we can't create here.

Joe Rogan 47:12 Like what?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 47:14 Um, medicine. Uh, certain types of metals, uh, s- kind of like ceramic metals. He created something... I actually wrote about this and published about it, totally academic paper so, you know, most general readers would never read it, um, it's because it has academic jargon in it.

Joe Rogan 47:33 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 47:33 But um, I talked all about it.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Jamie's got something. "Your research is to capitalize on microgravity in space to accelerate drug discovery and development." Um, that was one of the speculations about the type of metals that were retrieved, supposedly, from these crash sites, that these, whatever these metals were, they were layered and that they could only be layered specifically the way they were done in a zero gravity environment.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:02 Yeah, that's right. They were engineered.

Joe Rogan 48:05 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:05 So I actually did talk to Gary before I came on your podcast-

Joe Rogan 48:10 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:10 ... because I just wanted to be sure, you know, because I don't want to represent his research incorrectly.

Joe Rogan 48:14 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:14 So I said, "Can you please re-" you know, recap. They- he always thinks I'm an idiot too. He's like, "God. How many times have I told you this?" So yeah, so he has parts from various of the crash sites that are clearly engineered.... not by humans. (laughs) That-

Joe Rogan 48:32 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:32 But h- but he doesn't, he's not going to jump to the conclusion that it's extraterrestrial. He says, "We just don't know."

Joe Rogan 48:38 Right. It's just something that is outside of the realm of our current understanding of how we create physical materials.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:46 That's correct.

Joe Rogan 48:48 And how much of this stuff do they have? Do they have full crafts?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:52 Uh, I've never seen any full crafts.

Joe Rogan 48:54 What did you see when you went to the crash site?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 48:56 So, I saw two types of materials. Um, one, I can say, looks like a kind of metallic frog skin. And another, um-

Joe Rogan 49:04 And this is on the ground at the crash site?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 49:07 Okay.

Joe Rogan 49:07 Or do they have it in warehouses?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 49:08 So that's, that's another thing, I have to tell you a little bit about how we came about this. Now, remember, this is the first book that I wrote about this, so I've written two books about it. And I wasn't a believer. So, when I went there, I even wasn't a believer. I was like, "I think they're trying to give me mis-info or-"

Joe Rogan 49:23 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 49:23 ... you know, something's going on.

Joe Rogan 49:24 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 49:25 Maybe they really believe this. Well, they both really believed this, I know that for sure. So, we're there, and we had to wear blindfolds in order to go, me and Gary. So, Tyler's taking us. Um, we drive to a certain place, he says, "Put the blindfolds on." The- we had to leave our cellphones, we couldn't take any technology with us. And so, we- we go out, it takes about an hour to get out to the site. We're blindfolded. We get out to the site. We get out. We're wearing diff- we were wearing, like, I guess- I guess there's rattlesnakes out there, and so we have to wear certain boots, and, you know, things like that. So, we get out, we take our blindfolds off. And the first thing I do is I look around, 'cause it looks really familiar to me even though I've never been out there. And Tyler looked at me and he said, "Looks familiar, doesn't it?" And I said, you know, "Yeah." And he said, "It's- it's- you've seen it in The X-Files." And I was like, "What?" (laughs) He goes, "Th- they had an insider on their team." And I- I honestly thought, "Okay, this actually fits into my research," that, you know, we learn everything we- we do about religion from t- from media. Like, you wanna know what, you know, Moses looked like, you just watch, you know, The- Ten Commandments and things like that. Like, it's not true, of course, but that's how most people learn about their- their religions. And so this made me understand, this is what's going on, it's like people are believing this through this, and then I'm coming to this and I'm gonna confirm that it indeed looks like this, you know, and it is a crash site. It's just- it's just too weird for me, but, you know, this is what I study so I'm- I'm gonna study. But that gets to your point, like, how did we get this stuff? So, he actually did have, um, metal detectors that were configured for specific types of metals that he had- he had these built.

Joe Rogan 51:15 Is there a scientific term for these particular types of metals?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:19 They're called metamaterials.

Joe Rogan 51:21 Metamaterials?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:22 Wha-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:23 And I think that's just a fancy word for saying we don't know what this is.

Joe Rogan 51:26 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:27 Frankly, 'cause they're meta. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:28 Mm-hmm, okay.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:29 Right? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:30 And they're layered in some sort of a way, where it's like literally, like, atom upon atom?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:38 Yeah. Eh- well, I don't actually know the science of it. I just know what these guys tell me because, you know, they're doing the research-

Joe Rogan 51:47 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:48 ... at, you know, their laboratories.

Joe Rogan 51:50 These people are very cagey about it, like, Jacques Vallee-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:53 ... was very cagey about-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 51:54 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:54 ... the way he was willing to describe it, and the way he was willing to describe these things. It's a- it's almost like they don't want to blurt out too much 'cause it'll cut off access.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 52:08 I don't th- okay, so that's w- that could be. But I know that the reason that I don't want to is there's some type of national security issue, and I am an American.

Joe Rogan 52:19 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 52:20 So, there's something like that going on.

Joe Rogan 52:22 Right, especially if someone else can figure out how to use these things.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 52:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:27 So, when you go to this site, do you see the physical ground where this thing hit?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 52:33 Okay, yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 52:34 And what does it look like?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 52:34 Okay, so at this point, the whole site is covered with rubble that looks like rusted rubble. And it's not sand. So, there's the sand of the desert, right? And then there's this rubble everywhere, and I'm stepping on the rubble and I'm kind of looking at it. And I ask-

Joe Rogan 52:53 How big are these pieces?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 52:54 Well, this r- this is all just, like, less than cen-

Joe Rogan 52:57 Gravel?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 52:57 Yeah, it's like gravel. It's like... And so I asked Tyler, "What's this?" And he said that after the government retrieved the crash and they didn't want anyone out here looking, so what they did was they dropped a bunch of tin cans out here in the 1950s, and these have disintegrated down into this rubble. And so I put that in my book because that's what he said, and when I put that in my book, the editor of my book said to me, "You can't say this because it's ridiculous." And I, at the time, I was like, "It is ridiculous, but this is what happened and it's data. And even though we don't understand it now and it seems ridiculous, we need to keep it in there because-"

Joe Rogan 53:37 It doesn't seem ridiculous to me at all.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 53:40 Well, this is a person who absolutely, you know, the editor, who absolutely doesn't believe in UFOs at all.

Joe Rogan 53:45 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 53:45 But knows that I'm doing good work on a new type of religion, therefore is keeping the Oxford brand, you know, Oxford University-

Joe Rogan 53:54 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 53:54 ... straight and narrow. Uh, but I've- I convinced her, I said, "It's data, so we've gotta keep it in there." And I'm really happy I did. I kept it in there. I kept a lot of stuff in there that didn't make sense to me at the time, but when I look back on it with- with everything that's coming out now, I'm like, "Okay. I'm glad I did that."

Joe Rogan 54:10 Well, the strategy for disseminating disinformation along with real information has, uh, l- long been used.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 54:19 Yes.

Joe Rogan 54:20 Where they'll say a bunch of really ridiculous things and connect them to something that's probably real.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 54:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:24 And that way everything gets thrown out. It's the baby with the bathwater. The whole thing gets thrown out.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 54:30 Totally.

Joe Rogan 54:30 And if you have...... a, a site where they've picked up these anomalous metals that defy our understanding of metallurgy, and you're calling them metamaterials. No one knows where the hell it comes from. What's the best way to confuse people? Well, just throw a bunch of regular metal everywhere.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 54:47 That's right. That's exactly what we did.

Joe Rogan 54:48 Yeah. Just throw tin cans.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 54:50 But we were out there all day, so we were out there for probably 10 hours. And I know ... So, at many points in the day, Gary and I would go aside and s- and kind of confer without Tyler listening and saying, "It's a..." you know, "Is this a setup," you know? And so, he goes, "Well, let's just try to find some stuff and I'll analyze it and I'll t- ... You know, and we'll tell you."

Joe Rogan 55:09 So are you, uh ... Do you notice that the ground has been disturbed? Is there, there an indication that something hit there?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 55:18 Yes. So, Tyler took us and showed us everywhere. Like, he's been a part of this retrieval site for, like, 40 years or so. Le- ... He knows the people that ... Like, the original people and, um, the story and everything like that, so he gave us a tour of the whole place. Um, and we did ... And we found parts, by the way, and the p- ... Some of the parts were so deep down into the ground, like there were rocks and things like that. And Gary ... Uh, like I'm afraid he's gonna get bit by a rattlesnake, frankly. He's putting his hand down there and, you know, spending, like, hours at this one place trying to get something, and he found some things there. And I thought, if people are trying to fool us and put things down, they did a really good job because they would ha- have had to come here like a year ago or something and put that down there. So, I don't ... Honestly, that's my personal opinion, is I don't think that this, uh, this was put out there for us. They found ... He ... They did, they did find. We did find things. What's interesting to me is this, is that after we found these things and we did all this kind of data collection and everything at the site, you know, um, very much like anthropologists do, by the way. You know, documenting what we found, when we found it, you know, what it looked like and things like that, and putting it into special containers. Um, then I was like, "I don't want this. I don't want any of this stuff." And they both looked at me and laughed, and so Tyler told us what was gonna happen when we went back to the airport. He said, "Once we get back to the airport, Gary said he's gonna take the stuff. Gary's gonna get stopped." Oh, Tyler can go through airports, by the way. He doesn't get ... He doesn't have to go through the normal thing that I have to go through, like the TSA and everything. He just goes through. So, he went through there ... Through. I had to go through. Gary went through, and he did get stopped. And everything happened exactly as Tyler said it would. Uh, there was gonna ... You know, they weren't ... They were gonna look through everything. They were gonna, like, take everything apart. Uh, then, you know, all that was was a signal to someone in DC that somebody had these parts and this is who.

Joe Rogan 57:28 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 57:28 That's what he said was g- ... So, and at ... And I don't know if the signal went to DC, but everything else happened, and ... And Gary and I were both sweating, right? We were like, "Ah."

Joe Rogan 57:37 So, they essentially allow this?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 57:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:41 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 57:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:42 Is it because they want different perspectives from different academics?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 57:47 I think so. My personal opinion is that, and, and in fact, uh, there was a conference at Stanford, uh, like a month ago, and I was at that conference. And part of what was said was that this is information that we can't keep siloed because it's, it's too important, and we need to have the best minds on this, this information, this data, this material. And so they're out- ... Kinda like outsourcing.

Joe Rogan 58:11 How big were these pieces?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:13 So, these pieces that I found, um, weren't very big. I mean, they were about ... One of them was about, like this, this big, right?

Joe Rogan 58:20 Okay, like, so the size of a pack of gum?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:22 Yeah. And the, the actual, uh, f- frog skin-type thing was probably about this big.

Joe Rogan 58:29 Like a small notebook?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:30 And we found a couple of those.

Joe Rogan 58:31 Mm-hmm. You found a couple that were just wandering around this area?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:34 Well, we weren't wandering. We were actually digging in-

Joe Rogan 58:36 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:36 ... and looking, and ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:37 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:38 Uh, wandering's a bad word.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:39 That's okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:40 But exploring.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:41 Um, this frog skin, what is it ... What, what is the ... Is it malleable? Is it-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 58:48 Yes, it's malleable, and you could crunch it up and it'll go back to its original form.

Joe Rogan 58:53 I've heard of that before. That was something that they talked about at Roswell, that there was some bizarre metal that you could crumple up like a piece of paper and it would flatten right back out, and that's what you experienced?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:06 I don't know if it was the same material, but yes.

Joe Rogan 59:08 Similar?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:08 Yeah, it was like that.

Joe Rogan 59:09 What did, what did that feel like when you did that?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:13 Uh, it's hard to e- explain because you have to understand, I'm ... I was really resistant to w- ... To the-

Joe Rogan 59:20 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:20 You know, 10 years ago, think about it, this was a time period when we weren't talking about UFOs.

Joe Rogan 59:26 Right, it was ridiculous.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:27 Until 2017.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:28 That's right.

Joe Rogan 59:29 Till the New York Times story.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:30 That's right, and my book was impressed during that time.

Joe Rogan 59:32 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 59:32 So, during this time period, I'm doing this research and I am not going to believe that this is ... This is ... But so many indicators were telling me that it was, yes, this is Diana. This is what's going on. You know, there is something. And so much ... And when I looked back at the Space Force, w- our Space Force and also the history of that, I could see, okay, there, there are so many things that just don't add up here, that this is probably ... And I met too many people that had been long-timers in the program.

Joe Rogan 1:00:01 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:00:01 Like, seriously long-timers, like their whole lives, live and die by this.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:00:06 Live and die by it. When they die, they die with that information.

Joe Rogan 1:00:10 Whoa.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:00:10 And it's, it's traumatizing to u- ... Them and their family too.

Joe Rogan 1:00:14 I can only imagine.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:00:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Yeah. The, the people that worked on Roswell that spoke about it many, many years later, they, they have that sort of same weight that they're carrying around with them. Like Philip Corso and a lot of those other people, when they describe the experience like many, many years later, their ... So, there's a weight.... to the information that they're carrying. It's almost like they want to tell the world, but the world's not going to even believe them and how could they unless they experienced it? And even though they experienced it, they're still baffled by it.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:00:47 That's exactly the feeling I got. It was a wait. There was a sense of duty to the American, you know ... To being an American, of course, and patriot. There's a patriotism there. Um, but there was also a sense that these were the true actors in history and we will never know their names.

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 (sighs) So, you spent 10 hours at this site?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:01:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:11 And are ... Is there any guidance? Are they describing things to you? Are they telling you what you can and can't do? Is there any-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:01:18 No. It was just me, Gary, and Tyler.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:01:22 There was no-

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 No one else?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:01:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:24 So who transported you there?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:01:26 Well, Tyler did because it was a site-

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 So Tyler blindfolded you?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:01:30 Yeah, yeah. He's the person who worked on this site for 40 years.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 So obviously he has permission to do this?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:01:37 He does. He had ... In fact, he had to get permission for Gary to go. He had already received permission from me to go and he had to get permission for Gary to go.

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 Hmm. And what kind of information are they giving you in terms of what their conclusions are? How many different possibilities that they have surmised? Like, do they have a summary of all the different aspects of this phenomenon-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:02:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 ... that they think it could be or might not be, or?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:02:08 So, yes. So the story actually begins there and then I continued to work with Tyler because I'm pretty fascinated by what he does and I'm fascinated about the programs and I'm fascinated by the fact that the true actors of history are unknown. And I want-

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 What do you mean by that?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:02:33 Because these are the people that are doing things that actually change history. Like, think of the first people that decided, "Hey, let's give these people LSD and see what happens." Right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:02:44 Well, they probably weren't Richard Alpert, Ram Dass, and Timothy Leary. They probably weren't them, but the-

Joe Rogan 1:02:50 It's Jolly West.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:02:51 There you go. Okay?

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:02:52 And most people don't know who that is. Okay? So what ... That's what I'm saying is like there's a whole nother level to our history and I already knew this anyway being a historian of religion, but when it ... I guess I was a patriot, right? And I still am. And so when I-

Joe Rogan 1:03:07 As am I.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:03:08 So when I learned about this, I was ... I really wanted to share this story because I felt like these people, even if they remained invisible, they should get their due. Like, because these people keep us safe in ways that we just don't know. And they're dedicating their lives and they're getting no recognition for it. Okay? No recognition. And so that really prompted me, more than anything, to write about it. So I was working with Tyler and I was scheduled to go to the Vatican and, um

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:03:38 ... And it was at the Vatican where we encountered ... Where a lot of things happened for Tyler that I saw made him understand that this was something that had been going on historically for a very long time period. See, we didn't just go to the Vatican, we also went to the ... Well, we went to the Vatican Archive, um, which is hard to get into, but I could get into it. And we also went to the Space Observatory Archive, which most people don't even know that the Vatican has a Space Observatory. And how that all happened was not set up, Joe. It was not. It was so organic, um, because it happened before I even met Tyler and I put off going there because I have ... I had at the time very young kids and I didn't want to leave them and go to another country, um, for, you know, three weeks or whatnot. And ... But I had been invited by Brother Guy Consolmagno to go to the Space Observatory because I had been studying about the space re-... You know, research and I said, "Does the Vatican have like a lot of space documents? You know, documents about space?" And he said, "Every single thing that the Vatican does and they ... And we do," he said, "comes to where I live, which is at the Space Observatory. And we have a scholar's residence and you're welcome to stay for as long as you want. You have full access to the Space Observatory Archive." And-

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 What is it like?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:01 It's great.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 Expre-... Expe-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:02 It's great.

Joe Rogan 1:05:03 Describe it to me.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:04 Okay. Well, for me it's great.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:06 Many people may think, "Oh, how boring." Right? But original Keplers and Copernicuses and, you know, every single thing that people, scientists from 1200, 1300 on up thought about space and about magnetism and propulsion and things like that, it's all there. Every one of them. And so you go in there and we had full access to it, Tyler and I.

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 Why does the Vatican have that?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:34 Well, the Vatican would have it so because, you know, who was doing this 500 years ago? There was no United States.

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 Right.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:41 So of course they're going to have it. They also have an amazing meteorite collection. Um, they have a lot of really cool things there. And they're ... Again, they're these monks. They're astrophysicist monks and they're just hanging out there. They've got the best lattes, by the way. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 (laughs) Italians.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 They know how to eat.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:05:59 Um, my experience though of the Vatican itself was different than the archive. Um, and I've actually heard you talk about the Vatican and I agree. Like you said, you were ... I saw you talking about it and you said, "You know, I'm looking around and I see all this stuff and they stole it from all these, you know, countries. It was like all this booty, you know, the Vatican is filled with it." That was-

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:06:19 ... my experience as well. So when I went, you know, we did all the ... We did the scholarship, of course, but we also did the touristy thing. So, you know, we went and looked at all the museum and everything like that. And everything I saw seemed to me to be like, you know, colonization. You know, the colonization of these people and taking their stuff-

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:06:38 And the colonization of these people and taking their stuff. And they have it all there. And, um, when you're inside the Vatican, by the way, it's different than when you're outside of it because, you know, when you're outside of it, there are those guys that-... that, uh, the Swiss Guards. Well, those guys are militia when you go inside, and they're everywhere.

Joe Rogan 1:06:57 Mm. The thing that fascinated me about it was the- the- just the volume.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:04 The volume. It's like they're hoarders for insane art.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 I mean, there's stuff that should be in its own room, and it's just stacked next to other stuff that also should be in its own room.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:16 It's almost like they don't have enough space-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:18 ... for all the stuff that they have.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:20 That's what it seems like.

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 Yeah. It's- it's- well, it's kind of like this place, if you see our stack of art that we have out there. I have, like, stuff that I need to put on the walls. It's just I have too much of it, because so many people send me cool shit.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:32 This is such an awesome studio.

Joe Rogan 1:07:34 Thank you.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:34 It reminded me immediately when I walked into it. I was like, "Okay, I want to take photos of everything." But I wouldn't.

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 (laughs)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:39 I didn't. But I did want to.

Joe Rogan 1:07:41 Well, you can. It's okay. Yeah, I mean, it's just art.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:45 It's amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:07:45 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:07:46 You have some really amazing stuff.

Joe Rogan 1:07:47 Thank you. Yeah, it's cool. It's cool to be connected to so many fascinating artists that send me stuff or that I buy their stuff. Like, you know, I bought that- the Hendrix painting. There's- the thing about the Vatican, well, I- I got very fortunate that we had a- a professor that took us on a tour. And my children were pretty young at the time, and, um, when we went, we were outside in the- this courtyard area, and there- where the pine cone is. And, uh, he said, "Do you know the significance of the pine cone?" And I said, "Does it represent the pineal gland?" And he said, "Yes." And so he got so excited.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:08:25 I did not know this. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:26 Yeah, that's what-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:08:27 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:08:27 It's also in the- the- the Pope's staff. If you look at the staff that the Pope carries, the staff has a pine con- see if you can get a photo of the staff that Pope carries. It has a pine cone in the center of it. The pine cone, which is in- it's depicted in many, many ancient pieces of art, religious art, and it represents the pineal gland, because it's similar in appearance to a pine cone. And, uh, so this pine cone, which also, I'm sure, probably represents the Fibonacci sequence, which also represents itself in the pine cone. Um, that- that's the seed of the soul. That's where DMT is made.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:09:08 This might be the gateway place.

Joe Rogan 1:09:09 Yeah. It's- well, the reason why they have it, an immense pine cone, I mean, that's not an accident.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:09:15 No, of course not.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 No.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:09:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:09:16 That's- so here it is.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:09:18 Fascinating.

Joe Rogan 1:09:19 So he has it in his staff, and that massive pine cone that is the sculpture at the Vatican, that- that's what that is. That- that is- that is- it's representative of the pineal gland, and this is what this professor was telling me. And, like, you see it there in that ancient, uh, Mesopotamian art. It's probably, um, Sumerian with that- that god that has that, uh, I mean, that's the Annunaki carried that thing. And then the fact that they're holding it specifically, that they're telling you, like, "This is what- this is what's up. This is- this is the connection. This is the connection to the gods."

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:09:54 Did you guess this?

Joe Rogan 1:09:56 Uh, well, I knew that the pineal gland looked like a pine cone, and I-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:10:00 And so when he asked you, you just knew this?

Joe Rogan 1:10:02 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:10:02 That's pretty amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:10:04 Well, I'd already had a lot of experiences with DMT.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:10:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:10:08 So I already knew. And I knew there was- there's an- a realm accessible to anybody that gets in contact with that stuff that is beyond imagination. It is more real than reality. And when you go there, you've been there before, with the most bizarre feeling about it is this terrifying fear while it's happening and an incredible peace when you get in there and a recognition like, "Oh, I know this place. I've been here. I'm here all the time. I know these things. I know the- these beings. These beings are- they're- they're truth. They're- they're something from somewhere else, somewhere that's probably around us all the time, that's influencing us all the time." I know a lot of people have had very negative experiences, like horrific experiences of demons and- and negative encounters. I've had none. I've had no negative experiences like that. My- my experiences are all in these very enlightened, bizarre creatures that contact you. And they seem to know, like, what's wrong with me, like right away. And they seem to, like, also work on you. Like, there's this bizarre feeling, like, they're like, "Let me get in there and fix your fucking wires."

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:11:26 Well, that, of course, sounds like the abduction experience too.

Joe Rogan 1:11:28 Yes.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:11:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:30 Very, very, very similar to the abduction experience. I think they're all connected. I really do. I think that's why- I mean, I know you're saying that some of them do happen during the day. I'm sure, I'm sure some of them happen during the day. Most of them happen at night. The vast majority of them-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:11:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:45 ... happen-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:11:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:45 ... during what people are sleeping.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:11:46 That's true.

Joe Rogan 1:11:47 And that seems to be com- completely connected to that. It's the only explanation that makes sense to me, other than an actual, you know, like, you know, Hollywood-style UFO landing and then come and getting you and- which seems so theatrical. It's- I think the reality is far more bizarre than that. I think that is- that's one of the things that McKenna said about DMT and also about mushrooms. Terence McKenna said that they show you themselves in that way to comfort you because the reality of what they are would be too much for you to handle, and that what you're seeing, even though it's mind-blowing, it's just a tiny little piece of what it actually is. So when I'm at the Vatican and I see this pine cone, I'm going, "Okay." So there's this recognition that this connection to God, this connection to this higher experience, this higher power, it's available inside of us. It's- there's some- there's a gateway, and that's the gateway. That pine cone is the gateway.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:13:00 That's amazing. Um, and, you know, my parish priest actually, about a year ago, gave me a little pine cone, a little gold pine cone.

Joe Rogan 1:13:09 Mm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:13:09 And I put it on my bag. And I didn't know this actually, and as I came here to Austin, it fell off in the airport. And it's not gold or anything, but it looks gold, and it fell off and it kind of went away. And it would be, I thought, "Maybe I should just let it go."

Joe Rogan 1:13:29 (laughs)

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:13:29 And then I looked at it and I was like, "Nah, that's really important for some reason." So I picked it up and put it back in the bag.

Joe Rogan 1:13:35 Oh, wow.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:13:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:36 That's wild.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:13:36 I know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:13:37 Yeah. It's a strange representation of what ... I mean, it, it's, it's i- it's an icon of this thing, whatever this thing is that's inside of us that is this gateway.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:13:49 And it must've been that Plato and his school was basically, they were basically trying to make the body healthy enough for people to, you know, access through this.

Joe Rogan 1:13:58 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:13:59 Which is a type of mind, like he didn't s- call it intellectual. He had a, he had another word for it. They have, uh, like Greeks, they have different words for knowledge, right?

Joe Rogan 1:14:10 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:10 So gnosis and ... You know, so this was a form of, um, the dialectic, which was a certain type of knowledge, a certain type of knowing. It wasn't like mathematical knowing. So this must be this type of thing, I'm thinking.

Joe Rogan 1:14:23 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:23 Because, you know, Plato's Republic actually went and influenced Christians and early Christianity. So this idea seems to not be just specifically Christian, as you say. You saw s- you know, we saw some photos of Egyptians, you know, with pine cones.

Joe Rogan 1:14:38 Yes.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:39 Fascinating.

Joe Rogan 1:14:40 All throughout history.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:41 And then all throughout history, the use of psychedelics. I'm, I'm sure you're aware of, uh, Brian Muraresku's work?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:47 Oh, yeah, I know him.

Joe Rogan 1:14:48 Yeah. Okay, yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:49 So that whole thing, the Eleusinian Mysteries.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:53 That's right. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:54 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:14:54 That was-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:14:55 ... all about that.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:14:56 That's right. Um, are you aware of Maria Sabina?

Joe Rogan 1:15:00 Yes.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:15:00 Yes. Okay, so when I was young, I learned about her and, um, and how, you know, she worked with psilocybin to heal people. And when she died, I think it was in the 1980s, the President of Mexico announced it. So she was actually, so in that culture, it was well known that ... And she called the psilocybin of the mushrooms little saints.

Joe Rogan 1:15:23 Hmm. Did you ever read John Marco Allegro's work?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:15:27 No, I haven't.

Joe Rogan 1:15:28 Do you know of it?

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:15:29 No, I, I probably have read it, you know, think of ... I, I've read a lot of books. So I may have just forgotten. But-

Joe Rogan 1:15:35 John Marco Allegro was an ordained minister-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:15:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:15:37 ... who became an agnostic when he started studying theology. And he was one of the people that was studying the Dead Sea Scrolls and-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:15:47 Ah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:47 ... he studied the Dead Sea Scrolls for 14 years and he wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:15:51 Okay, yes, I do know that book.

Joe Rogan 1:15:53 Yeah.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:15:53 Yes, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15:54 And then he wrote, um, th- th- that one got, I think it got bought out by the Catholic Church. And you can get old copies of it, but then it was just re-released a few years back. Uh, but the, th- then he wrote s- something in the, The Christian Myth. I forget what it was. Sacred Mushroom and The Christian Myth. Sacred Mushroom and The Cross, and then there was another one he wrote that he published after that other one was bought out that you can, that's readily available. But this guy studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is the oldest version of the Bible that we know of.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:16:29 That's right.

Joe Rogan 1:16:30 It's written in Aramaic.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:16:31 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:16:31 And the Dead Sea Scrolls was a particularly meticulous transcription. Uh, uh, uh, the way they had it transcribed, this is very bizarre, because it's written on parchment, which is animal skin. So they had to do DNA tests on the various pieces of parchment to make sure that they came from the same piece, because the, the idea that it'd, they'd be from different cows. So they take this parchment skin, they're l- they're laying it out, they do DNA tests on it to make sure it's all from the same f- And then they try to piece together what it is. And n- not all of it is even available. Jamie, chuck me that, uh, behind you to the right. Thank you. And his conclusion after all of this, the, the summary of his conclusion was the entire Christian religion was all about psychedelic experiences and fertility rituals, and that this was what all these stories really meant. And he even connected the word for Christ to an ancient Sumerian word which meant a mushroom covered in God's semen, and that these ancient people believed that when it rained, it was God having an orgasm on the Earth. And that these mushrooms, which if you've ever seen, mushrooms appear after the rain.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:17:40 Yes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:17:40 They come up out of nowhere.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:17:41 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17:42 And that these mushrooms, these people would eat them, and they would experience God.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:17:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:17:47 And that they wrote these things down in an oral... Well, first it was an oral tradition for who knows how long, and then they wrote them down and then, you know, it, it gets transcribed to Greek and Latin and English, and it's all-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:18:00 And a lot is missing out of those translations.

Joe Rogan 1:18:02 Yeah. A lot of it's missing even from the ancient Hebrew translation, because the words in ancient Hebrew had numerical value.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:18:09 Yes, that's true.

Joe Rogan 1:18:10 Which is a, it's a very complicated language, where like the word law, love, and the word God have the same numerical value. And numerical value in words is very important to what the meaning of these sentences and what these phrases meant. And we lose a lot of that.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:18:27 We also lose people's gender through these translations.

Joe Rogan 1:18:31 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:18:31 So some early apostles are called, who are women, are called men in the translation from Greek to Latin.

Joe Rogan 1:18:39 Mm-hmm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:18:39 Um, so I'm aware of this idea, and of course Brian's work as well. And in my field, that's, that's one s- We have categories for, you know, obviously, you know, like medicine, you know, has different categories. Um, and that's one category, is entheogens and different types of religions. Uh, so the early Christian church, I would say that not all of, I don't agree that all of Christian tradition is, is this. I would say that there definitely is a lot of it. Um, but there are also other types of, you know, Christian traditions-I mean, when I look at the Jesus movement in the first century, it, to me, looks like a philosophical school.

Joe Rogan 1:19:18 Mm.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:19:18 Like Plato. And, you know, Plato did the mysteries, you know, and, um ... But I don't know if ... I think Jesus was part of an Essene movement, like the John the Baptist is Jewish, he's out in the desert and, um, you know, they're practicing these water rights, and they basically are, you know, they have their own community. And he looked like he was part of ... He had been baptized into this community. So, the Jews at the f- in the first century were just trying to survive because r- Rome is killing them and destroying ... They were going to destroy their temple. So, um, so a lot of these communities, um, you know, those, th- so that's one interpretation. And I'm not discounting that that's correct for those, those traditions. But there are other traditions that are not, they're not-

Joe Rogan 1:20:04 No, I'm sure-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:20:05 ... filled with entheogens and things like that. I'm just letting, just being accurate.

Joe Rogan 1:20:08 No.

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:20:08 That's all I could do for-

Joe Rogan 1:20:09 I'm sure there's a lot. I mean, you're- you're- you're-

Diana Walsh Pasulka 1:20:12 Yeah. It was s- it was super diverse. Today, look at h- how diverse it is. So, I think there are thousands of ... Well, there are thousands of Protestant denominations of, you know ... And there's Catholicism and, you know. So, we have so many diff- And even Catholics don't even know what they are supposed to believe, so some here believe this, some over here believe that. They have the same mass that they go to, but the, their belief structures are different.

Joe Rogan 1:20:38 So, that leads us to one of the most fascinating interpretations of what we're experiencing, collectively, when it comes to this UFO, UAP, whatever it is, phenomenon. That this is not a thing from another planet that comes on a spaceship and, and lands here to show us how to do things correctly. But that they've always been here, and that they are the things that are being described in Ezekiel. That they, they are a phenomenon that is both here and not here at the same time. That it's ... You're, you are literally dealing with angels and demons. That this is, that this, this phenomenon is connected to these ancient stories of religion, and it's, it's