Joe Rogan Experience #2091 - Diana Walsh Pasulka

1. 0:00 – 3:30

   Why UFO talk feels “non-consensus” (and Rogan’s nighttime abduction puzzle)

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)

   4. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:12

      It's a scary, it's a scary podcast for me, 'cause I feel like you're... because I know a lot of the things that you've said and I've related to them, and I've said, "Okay, this makes sense."

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      Why is that scary?

   6. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:24

      Okay, so it's scary because it's not consensus reality. And, you know, because it's not consensus reality, we could talk about it over hot chocolate, in the fir- you know, near a fire or something.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:37

      Right.

   8. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:37

      But here we're talking about it and lots of people are going to be listening.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:40

      Yes.

   10. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:41

       So that is somewhat-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah. That's-

   12. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:43

       ... scary. (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:44

       That's the hu- hurdle that we all have to get over, and the, the good thing about this is it really is just us talking.

   14. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:50

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       You know, and there are a lot of people that are going to listen, but they're just people too.

   16. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:55

       That's true.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:56

       And-

   18. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:56

       And they've probably had these experiences.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       Some of them have.

   20. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka0:59

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan0:59

       Yeah. The, the experiences that are, that are available through psychedelics, that I've always wondered, I mean, the thing that has always struck me about the UFO experience, uh, particularly the abduction experience is that it always happens when people are asleep, it always happens at night. It either happens on the road when people are tired and it's late at night, or it happens... Like, why does it have to happen at night? The universe doesn't give a shit what... where the sun is in position to the planet. Like that doesn't make any sense, that all these UFO abduction experiences would happen only when the sun is on the other side.

   22. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:39

       (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:39

       That's so dumb. It makes no sense. It's literally s- it's such an egocentric, Earth-centric perspective that... And not even Earth-centric, uh, hemispherical-centric, right? It, it, it depends on where the sun is in position to the Earth. For that to be the only time that UFOs come, I was always like, "This seems like horseshit." There's something about it that seems like horseshit, but there's also something about it that seems real. When you listen to like Betty and Barney Hill, when they're, they're talking, boy that sounds like people talking about a real thing, boy that sounds like a real experience, it really does. And these people like the Whitley Strieberers, these people that talk about these experiences that happen at night, we know for a fact that when you are sleeping, your brain is producing endogenous psychedelic chemicals. We have no idea why. We have no idea what the purpose of those things are. We have no idea what the quantity is. We, we used to think, until recently, um, they weren't even exactly sure like where it was being produced, but now, uh, through Strassman's work and through the work of the Cottonwood Research Foundation, the, the, uh, people that do those DMT studies, they know that now your brain is producing this. And so is your brain, um, is it a... Is it producing a chemical gateway into another dimension? And is that why these people are experiencing these ab- abduction, l- you know, air quote, abduction experiences, these, these encounters, let's, let's say encounters, is that why they're happening at night? Is that why they're happening while they're lying in bed, because that seems to make way more sense?

   24. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka3:22

       Yeah, that's a great question. I can talk a little bit about this.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:26

       Please.

   26. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka3:26

       Okay, so I think that-

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:28

       Can we... I think we're starting weird.

   28. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka3:30

       Yeah. (laughs)

2. 3:30 – 9:09

   Pasulka’s path: religious studies, Vatican archives, and “ascent narratives”

   1. JRJoe Rogan3:30

      Let's... Can we just start with how did you get involved in this?

   2. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka3:34

      Okay.

   3. JRJoe Rogan3:34

      And please just tell people your background.

   4. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka3:36

      Okay, sure. So I'm a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina in Wilmington, and I grew up in California. And I've always... I've always been interested in these experiences about religion. And also I grew up... I was going to graduate school during the dot-com boom, so I saw how technology was changing everything. Our schools were the first to adopt computers and that type of thing. So what I did was, um, I was very interested in... I was working. You know, when your parents... you tell them you want to study religion and they're like, "Why not be a doctor?" Right? So, um, I was going to college but I kept taking courses in religion and philosophy, and when I got out, I got a job doing technology and things like that, and I made all right money, but I still read about religion and philosophy. So I figured if I could get scholarships to continue that I would, and I kept getting scholarships and that's how I got my PhD in religion. Uh, in, in religious studies, by the way, we actually were not ministers or anything like that. We don't advocate for any religious tradition, we study them. And since most people in the world are religious in some way, it's, it's a good thing to know. Um, but how did I get into studying UFOs? So I studied Christian history and that's what I did for a long time until I was what's called a full professor. You can't go any higher. You're a full professor, that's it. And, um, I started... I studied these things called ascent narratives. So ascent narratives are when people levitate in the, you know, Christian tradition, people either levitate or they have... Uh, they see things that they call angels or demons and things like this, and I always studied them from a historical perspective. And I found that going through, looking at these ascent narratives through the historical record at the Vatican actually, I kept coming across aerial phenomena in the historical records from a thousand years ago, from 500 years ago, from, you know, very recently. And I recognize that this was happening in, in UFO literature, and so I started to look at abductions and UFO sightings and things like that and I, I wanted to do a cross-cultural analysis of this. Um, and that was in 2012, and that's how I got into this. I just want to point out that not all abductions happen in your sleep. A lot of ad- abductions actually happen in daylight. Um, but I do agree with you that something's happening in your brain and you're, you're perceiving something, and you called it is there some type of mental gateway. And I think there's absolutely-... a mental gateway. Um, does this discount that these- this is objective of us? Like, you know, the question is, is this something subjective or this- is this something objective of us? My opinion at this point is it's something that is objective of us. Um, there's- there's something that we're accessing, and I don't think it's- it's within our space-time reality, um, to tell you the truth.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:32

      So, you think it's from somewhere else?

   6. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:34

      I do, um, but that doesn't... I mean, it doesn't have to be a location, you know, a geography.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:40

      Mm-hmm. Right. That's where it gets weird.

   8. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:42

      It gets totally weird, but so does quantum physics. Quantum physics is totally weird.

   9. JRJoe Rogan6:46

      It's the weirdest stuff ever.

   10. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:47

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:48

       And it's completely accepted-

   12. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:51

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:51

       ... that you could have something that exists in one place and also in another place, that something-

   14. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:55

       Now it is.

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:55

       ... moving-

   16. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:55

       Now it's completely accepted.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:57

       ... and also still.

   18. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:57

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:58

       Yeah.

   20. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka6:58

       The Nobel Prize in, what was it, 2022, was about that.

   21. JRJoe Rogan7:02

       Yeah, which is like, "What are you saying? You're saying witchcraft's real?" (laughs) Like what is- what are you saying?

   22. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka7:07

       (laughs) Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:07

       Magic is real?

   24. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka7:08

       (laughs) I think so a- well, yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan7:08

       Quantum physics is the nuttiest stuff of all time.

   26. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka7:11

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan7:11

       I've had a hundred people explain it to me. I don't get it still.

   28. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka7:14

       Yeah. Well, see, okay, so you were talking about accessing this- this space, and if I can go back to something you were talking about, about... And I'm going to say this. So, what I found was- and I had this experience too when I was around 13 years old. I felt like the- the world was going to end. I felt like there was going to be some kind of war, and it was a visceral feeling. It wasn't something that... It was something that made me depressed as a child. And it- it was real. I believed it was going to happen, and I- I believed it was going to happen at any time. Um, well, this... After studying religion and studying... By the way, this kind of prompted me into studying religion, and recognizing that, you know, if you look at, say, Christianity or even other religions, people had ideas that the world was going to end, and extinction events have happened and things like that. So, it could very well be that information like this is coming to us, but it's out of our space-time. So, to us, it seems like it's going to happen now, because our sense is of linear time, right? So, if we get a feeling and it's not from any of the input that we're getting, like our, you know, people telling us this is actually going to happen in the news, telling us this is actually going to happen, but it's coming to us as this feeling that you and I were just talking about, um, it could be coming from that space that we've just identified as, you know, people are talking about. Um, and- and yeah, I think that we're at the very beginning of doing a taxonomy or, you know, looking at this space in terms of the scientists that you just referenced and people that... You know, I think that actually people have... You know, indigenous cultures talk about this space, they have language about this space. They talked about this in encounters that, you know, religious traditions do talk about these spaces, but in secular culture, we've lost that language.

3. 9:09 – 14:07

   Quantum weirdness, lost secular language, and Plato’s “access” to the Good

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:09

      Well, it's- it is interesting that that language exists when you're discussing things like quantum physics-

   2. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka9:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:15

      ... because that is a language of like- You know, it's a bizarre, non-tangible, impossible to understand to the- to the layperson when you're explaining that these things are all interacting with each other without physical contact. Like, what do you- like, what do you mean? Like, what are you saying? Like, can you show me these things? Are there photos of them? No, we're just drawing. We're- we're writing it down on paper. We're pretty sure we have these equations and we know what it is. Like, what?

   4. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka9:47

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan9:48

      Like, why am I supposed to believe you? Because you guys are PhDs? Like what? This is nuts.

   6. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka9:53

      B-

   7. JRJoe Rogan9:53

      Like, but because-

   8. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka9:55

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan9:55

      ... this is like a- a field of science, this is a field of study that's universally accepted, we have- we've like given them a pass to talk about crazy stuff. But if you want to talk about crazy things in terms of encountering some sort of thing, some entity, some consciousness that exists in an alternative realm that has access to this realm occasionally, or perhaps that you can transcend your normal state of consciousness and access this other realm occasionally through some methods, whether it's through meditation, through psychedelic trips, through something, l- near-death experiences, something happens that perturbs the normal state of reality, and you have brief access to this transcendent experience that everyone has talked about, all of the great prophets, all of the- the great saints and religious figures have talked about from the beginning of written history.

   10. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka11:07

       Yeah. So, I think that it's not just that we give those physics guys a pass, and girls. Okay? We just don't... What they produce actually is- creates our world, right? The computers we look at and the technologies we use, even the structures we live in. And so this is what prompted me to go back into our historical record, like, and look at, like, the writings of Plato again, and some of- you know, some of these people that you're talking about, like the- the great minds, right? And I recognize that, say, Plato, who writes about his mentor, Socrates, who's, by the way, killed by his country- you know, was killed by Athens, the, uh, town he lives in. Not the town, but the state he lives in. And he's- he's, uh- he's executed, um, for being an atheist, by the way. And if you look at what he's talking about, he's actually talking about this space.He's actually talking about having a vision of something that we can't see. And he calls it the good, and he says, "It's, it's the best thing." Okay? And he's, he says, "It m- It makes you do things that are just." And you don't do them because they're the right thing to do; you do them because you really want to do them. And so to me, this is, I thought this was fascinating, so I went back and I recognized that he was what's called a math realist. So, he believed that... And he was one of the first people... Well, not just him, but people, you know, were talking about the, you know, 300s before the Common Era, so m- many, many, many years ago. He's already identifying these things called Platonic solids that now we can prove exist. But we're, we weren't able to prove them. So, he was using, and he even has this language too, Joe. He has this language. He says that we can actually, we can actually perceive these through our minds. But it's not normal intellect. It's not your normal abstract thinking.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:10

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka13:10

       But it's a type of thinking, and he relates it to protocols, like physical protocols. Like, did you know he was a wrestler?

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:18

       No, I didn't.

   14. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka13:19

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:19

       Oh, I did know that. Yeah, I'm sorry.

   16. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka13:21

       Yeah. In fact-

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:21

       Yeah.

   18. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka13:22

       ... his name even means that he's really not just a wrestler, but an awesome wrestler. So-

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:27

       Socrates, that name? Or-

   20. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka13:28

       No, no, Plato.

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:29

       Oh, sorry.

   22. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka13:30

       Yeah. These guys were all physical. They were all... They, it was basically this like philosophy cl- almost like a fight club, I think. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:38

       (laughs)

   24. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka13:38

       These guys, you know, they were like, they were wrestlers. And you know, they believed that this was good. They believed that these protocols help- helped them use their brains to access this, the good.

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:51

       Um, so what was the methodology behind that? Was it the breaking down of the normal states of consciousness through rigorous exercise and exertion?

   26. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka14:03

       Th- That's my opinion.

   27. JRJoe Rogan14:04

       Like a runner's high?

   28. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka14:06

       Yeah, that's my opinion.

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:07

       Yeah.

4. 14:07 – 18:09

   Protocols and flow states: Tyler, Space Force culture, and receiving information

   1. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka14:07

      Yeah. So, I, when I talk about it... 'Cause I like to teach my students about this, because honestly think that this is what progresses civilization, this kind of thing. So, I think, um, when I did American Cosmic, which is the first book about UFOs, again, which I never thought I'd be studying, I encountered this man, Tyler. And, um, and he's, he works for the Space Force, and he's been working for the Space Force since the wh- the whole space shuttle program, okay? And he's a special kind of person. He's a mission controller, but he does a lot of other things too. But he's also a multimillionaire space rocket scientist. I mean, just so strange. (laughs) And, and I called him Tyler after the character in Fight Club, because that's who he reminded me of. He reminded me of that character in Fight Club. Because he had this... First of all, he has more than 44 patents, and they're all related to space. And, and the Space Force has a special place for him. Like, he's special, right? What I found was that he was practicing these types of protocols. I call them protocols because they reminded me of Plato and monastic traditions, the traditions of monks and things. So, um, he would make sure that he got sunshine. He would make sure that he got plenty of sleep. Um, he would not have too much caffeine. Um, he exercised a lot. Uh, he boxed, right? So, he was also a fighter. And he tried to stay away from people. I know it sounds weird, but that's what monks do. They try to stay... You know, they try to like monitor their input of people.

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:40

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka15:41

      Because those people can actually take them off their game, or something like that. But so this guy was put into a- another mental state, and during this mental state, he said that he could receive calculations, he could receive information, he could receive things, and then he c- he could gather a group of scientists, and he wouldn't tell them where he came from, 'cause he honestly thought they were coming from, um, these things outside of spacetime, kind of like ETs or something, off-planet intelligences.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:11

      Which Tesla also believed.

   5. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka16:13

      And our, the people who started our own Space Force believed it. So, this isn't common knowledge. That's what I found, is like a lot of people aren't, they don't know this history of the American Space Force and the Russian Space Force, very much the same. These people were doing these things. And this allowed them... You see this in sports, right? So, people... I was just using this example in a class yesterday. Um, I saw this basketball game two or three years ago with Steph Curry, and you know, the way they were playing, it was almost as if there was an emergent phenomena that was bigger than each of the people, 'cause they somehow anticipated what the other guy was going to do.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka16:50

      And I w- I used to do sports, and I know that this is something that can be done. Um, there's a flow state, right?

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:56

      Mm-hmm.

   9. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka16:57

      And I think that this is what Plato was trying to get his, his group into, through these protocols.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:03

       W- Well, that makes sense. It's... And one of the things that happens in flow state is that you stop being there.

   11. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:10

       That's right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:10

       Yeah, it's not you.

   13. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:12

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:12

       And you're just experiencing this thing.

   15. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:14

       Totally, yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:15

       Yeah. You, you experience it on stage doing standup. You, you-

   17. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:21

       I, I imagine that.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:21

       When you do it right.

   19. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:22

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:22

       When you get it right-

   21. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:23

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:23

       ... you're on a ride.

   23. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:24

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:25

       Like, you're just like sort of like making sure that, "Okay, feed this into the machine, and go," and it goes. And then, and you're sort of like you're in tune with what you're saying, but you're almost outside of yourself.

   25. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:39

       That's exactly right. And you know, there is science that shows that this is the case.

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:43

       Mm-hmm. Right, with, with brainwaves.

   27. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:46

       Yeah. The problem is, is that there... Like, when Joe's out there on stage, they're not going to hook you up to a- an MRI, right?

   28. JRJoe Rogan17:54

       Right.

   29. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka17:54

       They can't do that kind of... 'Cause when it's happening, it's happening spontaneously. It just happens, and no one can actually predict when it's going to happen. But you hope that it happens.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:03

       And also, if they did hook you up to it, you would also be aware that you're being monitored-
5. 18:09 – 20:54

   Lucid dreaming and dream yoga: training altered states (and why it may be risky)

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:09

      Yeah. It's like when you're in a, a lucid dream, and you go, "Oh my God, I'm in a lucid dream," and then pff, wake up.

   2. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka18:14

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:14

      Dammit.

   4. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka18:15

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan18:15

      I've, I've had that happen so many times, where like, wow, I'm ... And I know there's a way to, um, facilitate lucid dreams. I know there's a study behind it, but I've never ... I've, for whatever reason, it seems so stupid that I've never done it, but I've never even had the desire to do it. I just l- like, want it to come to me when it comes to me. Which is dumb. I n-

   6. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka18:36

      Not necessarily. That's, I, I respect that.

   7. JRJoe Rogan18:38

      Yeah, but a part of me doesn't. Part of me is like, "You're just lazy. Why don't you just, like, go, like, start the practice and study it, and figure out how to make it happen more often?" You know? But for whatever reason, I have zero desire to (laughs) do that. I don't know why.

   8. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka18:54

      I would, I, there might be some wisdom there.

   9. JRJoe Rogan18:56

      (clicks tongue) I don't know. Yeah, I'm, I b- I go back and forth with whether or not it's laziness. I don't know what it is. You know, but there's, there's obviously a, a fascinating aspect to lucid dreaming, to, like, what is going on there?

   10. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:12

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:12

       Like, how are you-

   12. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:13

       Oh, definitely.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:14

       ... managing this weird thing? That, for most of us, you wake up and you go, "God, what the hell was that? What the f- why was Godzilla in my dream?"

   14. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:22

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:22

       "You know, why, why was I on a skateboard?" (laughs)

   16. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:24

       That's right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:25

       It's this, like, weirdness to it. And then there's people that try to interpret that with, uh, b- like, far too much confidence-

   18. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:32

       Yes, I think so, too.

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:33

       ... in what that means.

   20. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:33

       I think so, too.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:34

       Yeah.

   22. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:34

       So, in, um, in Tibet there's a Tibetan dream yoga.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:38

       Ooh.

   24. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:39

       And that's what they do. They basically teach you how to do ... And you have to have a teacher, by the way.

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:44

       Hmm.

   26. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:44

       'Cause they say it, it can be dangerous.

   27. JRJoe Rogan19:46

       Dangerous?

   28. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:46

       So, yeah. So I think that's probably why you think you're not doing it. 'Cause I don't think you're lazy, frankly. Like, I know the kinds of things you do. I know that y- you, that's not part ... So-

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:55

       (inhales deeply) Yeah, but I am lazy. That's what's crazy.

   30. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka19:58

       Well, I mean-
6. 20:54 – 28:44

   Obsession, genius, and “electric church”: Hendrix, the 1960s, and psychedelics

   1. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka20:54

      Yeah. That's what I was telling you about when I saw your picture out there of, uh, Jimi Hendrix.

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:58

      Yeah.

   3. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka20:59

      And I was, when I was a kid, I was an artist. I really liked to do art. And I remember the first time I became obsessed was when I was doing this, this drawing of Jimi Hendrix.

   4. JRJoe Rogan21:11

      Mm.

   5. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:11

      And I, I was, uh, it, I went on- it went on for about a week. And my parents were like, "What are you doing?" You know. And I was, I was just obsessed with getting it correct. It had to be absolutely correct.

   6. JRJoe Rogan21:23

      Hmm.

   7. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:23

      And I did get it correct, and it was pretty amazing. And I gave it-

   8. JRJoe Rogan21:26

      Did you have it?

   9. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:26

      No, I g- I always give my stuff away, so-

   10. JRJoe Rogan21:28

       Do you have a photo of it or anything?

   11. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:29

       No, no, no.

   12. JRJoe Rogan21:30

       Damn.

   13. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:30

       This was, like, pre-cellphones.

   14. JRJoe Rogan21:32

       Oh.

   15. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:32

       So I gave it to my best friend.

   16. JRJoe Rogan21:34

       Oh, that's cool.

   17. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:34

       And I don't, I don't regret it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan21:37

       That's cool.

   19. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:37

       Yeah. But, I mean, it was the experience, though, that was the best part of it.

   20. JRJoe Rogan21:42

       Yeah. I, the reason why this podcast is called The Joe Rogan Experience is because I think Jimi Hendrix is a religious figure.

   21. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka21:50

       He is. He absolutely is.

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:52

       I think, I mean, the guy died at 27. Which, when I was 27, I was a fucking moron. I'd never done anything good. This guy had transcended the normal boundaries of what music was, and had tapped into something, whatever it was. But when you listen to Voodoo Child-

   23. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka22:14

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan22:14

       ... to this day ... I mean, I've listened to that song thousands of times. But, like, if I'm on my way to go do something cool and I listen to that song, like, loud in my car, it just, like, it's, it's, there's ... He tapped into something that was just out of this realm. Inaccessible to the average person that plays a guitar. Inaccessible to the average artist. He hit some crazy vibration. And I've always got that feeling when I listen to his stuff. It's, it's always, like, moved me in a very weird way, where I'm just completely captivated. Like, immersed in the sounds, immersed in his, in his music.

   25. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka22:58

       Me too. Um, so he, I think he, well, I, he knew that he d- was doing that. So he, as you know, I'm sure you know this, but, um, you know, he had a guitar when he was five. And he, he was so good at it, he was immediately, like, he f- it f- he streamed sacred information through his music, and he knew he did. He called it his electric church.

   26. JRJoe Rogan23:22

       Mm. Yeah.

   27. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka23:24

       So he knew he did that. And, um, how incredible. And yes, we can hear it.

   28. JRJoe Rogan23:30

       Yeah.

   29. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka23:30

       And I think, and, uh, I think, I think probably part of the reason I, I felt that when I listened to his music and I somehow f- put that into his, t- that picture. That f- that drawing that I made. And, and it las- and it was a beautiful experience. And that was ... You know, I mean, I mean, it sounds so strange, but that's part of the reason why I was interested in studying religion and things like that. Because of, of that experience.

   30. JRJoe Rogan23:57

       Yeah, that you're tapping into something that's higher than normal consciousness.
7. 28:44 – 37:13

   MKUltra, propaganda, and “structural evil”: who shapes reality and why it matters

   1. JRJoe Rogan28:44

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. The, um, the MKUltra experiments. When you realize what the government was involved with and what they were doing, how they were running the Haight-Ashbury free clinic, and they were administering psychedelics to people in brothels without their knowledge and- and observing them, and- and what they did with Charles Manson, it's very well detailed. I don't know if you've read, um, Tom O'Neil's book, Chaos.

   2. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka29:13

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan29:13

      Have you read that?

   4. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka29:14

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan29:14

      Insane.

   6. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka29:15

      Yeah, I know. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan29:16

      It's i- insane.

   8. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka29:17

      It's so-

   9. JRJoe Rogan29:17

      Because Tom is so-

   10. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka29:18

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:19

       ... detail-oriented. I mean, he's so crazy that he studied this one thing for 20 years, t- like, and really kind of like tanked his life, you know, and then finally got the book out there, and the book is just holy shit.

   12. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka29:31

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:31

       Because it's- what- what the facts, the absolute undeniable facts in that book, just those alone, forget speculation, b- forget theory, just the facts alone are insane.

   14. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka29:42

       Yes.

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:42

       They most likely created Charles Manson, most likely gave him psychedelics, gave him LSD, taught him how to mind control influential young people, or, uh, easily influenced young people, and get them to do horrific things, and demonize the hippie movement.

   16. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka30:01

       Yeah, it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:02

       Yeah. Like what's going on right now.

   18. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka30:04

       That's exactly what I think. (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:05

       I don't think they're as good right now.I think right now, they're- they're baffled by this thing called the internet. And I think the internet threw a giant monkey wrench in propaganda, because it- it made people s- so much more resistant to bullshit.

   20. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka30:21

       Yes. Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:22

       Ther- and- and then the- when you see things like, especially coming out of the pandemic, when you see how incompetent these people that are supposed to be leaders are, and how foolhardy they are, and how stupid their decisions were, and then you just look at the undeniable transfer of wealth to the upper small area of the country that gained billions of dollars in wealth, and how much it devastated small businesses, and, like, did you guys do this on purpose? Like, do you know what you're doing? Are you idiots? Like, why are you telling us what to do? You guys are fools. And especially when it comes to, uh, d- like, uh, is- does anybody believe that Joe Biden's ever had a transcendent experience? Does anybody believe that Joe Biden has ever, like, met God and- and came back with a- a message for mankind? No. It's like everything is, like, bizarre, ego-driven, narrative-driven lies and propaganda and just nonsense that's supposed to make it look like they're doing the right thing always.

   22. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka31:26

       Yeah, that's the- that's a terrible idea of justice.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:29

       Yes.

   24. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka31:30

       But it's the appearance of justice-

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:32

       Yeah.

   26. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka31:32

       ... without actually doing the right thing.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       Yeah, and it's- it's- it's just a- I mean, it's also very- it's, uh, got all the aspects of a cult. All- th- the people that go along with it, no matter what the evidence shows, the people- the people that aren't, like, stepping back and going, "Wait a minute. We are- we are being run by f- people that have zero feelings for the- the actual populace," and all they're trying to do is feed this machine that's got them to where they are in the first place.

   28. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka32:01

       Yeah. It's, uh, terrible.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:02

       It's terrible-

   30. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka32:03

       (laughs)
8. 37:13 – 41:32

   UFO perception management: Project Blue Book, oral tradition, factions, and harassment

   1. JRJoe Rogan37:13

      So, I want to take it back there, 'cause a lot of this is probably hard to follow for people that aren't, like, well-read in this. When you say that they have been engineering or o- orchestrating public perception of this experience from the beginning, what's the earliest known instance of this?

   2. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka37:34

      Okay, so the one that is unclassified is Project Blue Book.

   3. JRJoe Rogan37:38

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka37:38

      And that's from 1950s, 1952. But I know that, and I, and, and I have to explain how one knows this. So, we have documents that talk about Project Blue Book, and that's them manage ... You know, they're managing the perception, the public perception, of UFOs. Goes back to, like, '47, even-

   5. JRJoe Rogan37:58

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka37:58

      ... with Roswell and, and that kind of thing. Um, there's another, and this is what t- m- this is what I've found, is that there's an oral tradition that is part of the communities that run this, run these programs, like the UFO programs, right? Um, and that i- that c- information is carried within people. It's not written down. They even have a word for not writing it down. When they're going to have these meetings, they, they have this special term and everybody puts down everything, you know?

   7. JRJoe Rogan38:35

      What's the term?

   8. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka38:36

      I don't ... It's called, it's called pencils up.

   9. JRJoe Rogan38:40

      Pencils up?

   10. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka38:41

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan38:41

       So, pencils up means they're just going to discuss these things, and then the ... That's the only record of it?

   12. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka38:48

       It's, yeah, it's the oral tradition. Now, why I was able to look at this, is because I had done work looking at oral traditions in religious, in religious communities. Like, oral traditions go back 10,000 years, whereas, you know, written traditions are, like, 2,000 years old. Oral traditions are actually more accurate than we think they are. We tend to think of it as telephone game, um, but you can get a lot of information from oral traditions, and this is actually how a lot of classified information is kept, through oral tradition.

   13. JRJoe Rogan39:20

       Especially in a very disciplined and structured environment, like high-level military.

   14. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka39:26

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan39:27

       So, so they have a perception, and one of the things that you said earlier is that they think that the, the, the greater go- the, the greater population is not good and that they will turn on you and that they're evil and that they'll ...

   16. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka39:40

       Well, that's one faction.

   17. JRJoe Rogan39:42

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka39:42

       So, what I found was that there were several different factions within the perception management of UFOs. And one of the factions was responsible for, sadly, harassing people who do research, and I found this out by being harassed (laughs) .

   19. JRJoe Rogan40:00

       How, how so? How were you harassed?

   20. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka40:01

       Okay, so, you know, here I am, just your average professor doing their work.

   21. JRJoe Rogan40:07

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka40:07

       And, you know, and doing it pretty well. Um, at my university, uh, I was the chair of my department, um, well-regarded by my colleagues and students, and never really doing anything weird, right? Um, and then I start to study UFOs, thinking that they're not real, thinking that it's a, it's just a form, a new form of religion.

   23. JRJoe Rogan40:28

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka40:29

       And then, quickly having people come into my sphere, research ph- sphere, who are, you know, part of CIA, part of FBI, that kind of thing, and then getting a shock that, you know, whoa, this could be dangerous and maybe I shouldn't be doing this. And thinking, you know, but, uh-

   25. JRJoe Rogan40:47

       Uh, uh, just simply because those people are contacting you, or specific reasons why you would think it's dangerous?

   26. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka40:53

       It indicated to me that there was something that I shouldn't maybe be doing, that it could be dangerous.

   27. JRJoe Rogan40:58

       Right, that you could suffer consequences for your curiosity or for your research?

   28. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka41:03

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan41:03

       And that they would punish you, or you could be punished, or you could be targeted?

   30. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka41:06

       That's what I thought. Yeah, yeah.
9. 41:32 – 58:11

   The New Mexico “crash” (donation) site: blindfolded trip, digging, and metamaterials

   1. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka41:32

      So, in part, this is before crash retrieval became a term that the Congress used.

   2. JRJoe Rogan41:40

      Right.

   3. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka41:40

      So, I was, um-

   4. JRJoe Rogan41:41

      What year are we talking about?

   5. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka41:43

      So, I started in 2012.

   6. JRJoe Rogan41:45

      Okay.

   7. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka41:45

      By 2015 and '16, I was already in full shock mode of, wow, this is bigger than I thought, and I was n- had been invited to go to a crash retrieval spot in New Mexico, uh, that was under a no-fly zone, and I still didn't believe the- when UFOs at this point. You have to understand that. So I di- I just thought that this ... I thought, the person inviting me is Tyler. He's a scientist. He works for-

   8. JRJoe Rogan42:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka42:13

      ... the Space Force. Um, he believes this, and I'm wondering, how does he even believe that this is real? We're, we're going with Gary Nolan, who's from Stanford, and he's out, um, but at the time, h- I called him James in my book.And I am- I'm the one actually who invited him to go, (laughs) 'cause I didn't really want to go by myself.

   10. JRJoe Rogan42:32

       (laughs)

   11. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka42:32

       You know? And so, I insisted that Gary go with me, and Tyler figured out who Gary was and he said okay. So we went out there. We had to actually wear blindfolds, and it was out in the middle of this place in New Mexico. I don't know where. Um, I know what was near it, but I don't know where the actual place was, and we were looking for parts, right? That had been put out there. And during the time period... So I think part of it was... The danger was that parts exist, right? So s- s- things like this do exist, and there are anomalous materials. Uh, this is what I was finding out, and I think that this was what... I'm an okay researcher. It's not like I would make this up, nor would I lie. Um, you know, I'm- I'm publishing with Oxford so uh, my reputation is at stake, right? So I'm doing the best I can to kind of adjudicate, like am I being fed disinformation or, you know, what's going on? Gary, now, will be able to identify by taking these parts back and analyzing them through his laboratories, um, whether or not they're engineered or not.

   12. JRJoe Rogan43:38

       Mm-hmm.

   13. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka43:39

       And um, and he's been doing that ever since. So these are the kinds of things that I would've found out. I think part of it was also that I was finding out that there was an oral tradition and that the perception management was very tight.

   14. JRJoe Rogan43:53

       Mm-hmm.

   15. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka43:54

       And I think this is what they were afraid, but I've said this now publicly, so...

   16. JRJoe Rogan44:00

       So-

   17. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka44:00

       But I- I did get harassed though. I did get harassed, and it still happens.

   18. JRJoe Rogan44:05

       Oh, how'd you get harassed?

   19. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka44:06

       Most of it is um, doxing and uh, email harassment at my university began and um, both to me and Gary at the same time, and people showing up. Um-

   20. JRJoe Rogan44:21

       People?

   21. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka44:21

       Yeah, people in my town showing up.

   22. JRJoe Rogan44:23

       Like what kind of people? Schizophrenics?

   23. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka44:26

       No, but-

   24. JRJoe Rogan44:27

       No?

   25. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka44:28

       (laughs) No, but people you wouldn't want to meet.

   26. JRJoe Rogan44:30

       Loons?

   27. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka44:31

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan44:31

       Loons?

   29. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka44:31

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan44:31

       Yeah.
10. 58:11 – 1:03:38

    Frog-skin metal and airport signaling: what happens when you carry pieces out

    1. JRJoe Rogan58:11

       How big were these pieces?

    2. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:13

       So, these pieces that I found, um, weren't very big. I mean, they were about ... One of them was about, like this, this big, right?

    3. JRJoe Rogan58:20

       Okay, like, so the size of a pack of gum?

    4. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:22

       Yeah. And the, the actual, uh, f- frog skin-type thing was probably about this big.

    5. JRJoe Rogan58:29

       Like a small notebook?

    6. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:30

       And we found a couple of those.

    7. JRJoe Rogan58:31

       Mm-hmm. You found a couple that were just wandering around this area?

    8. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:34

       Well, we weren't wandering. We were actually digging in-

    9. JRJoe Rogan58:36

       Right.

    10. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:36

        ... and looking, and ... Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan58:37

        Yeah.

    12. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:38

        Yeah.

    13. JRJoe Rogan58:38

        Uh, wandering's a bad word.

    14. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:39

        That's okay. (laughs)

    15. JRJoe Rogan58:40

        But exploring.

    16. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:41

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan58:41

        Um, this frog skin, what is it ... What, what is the ... Is it malleable? Is it-

    18. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka58:48

        Yes, it's malleable, and you could crunch it up and it'll go back to its original form.

    19. JRJoe Rogan58:53

        I've heard of that before. That was something that they talked about at Roswell, that there was some bizarre metal that you could crumple up like a piece of paper and it would flatten right back out, and that's what you experienced?

    20. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka59:06

        I don't know if it was the same material, but yes.

    21. JRJoe Rogan59:08

        Similar?

    22. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka59:08

        Yeah, it was like that.

    23. JRJoe Rogan59:09

        What did, what did that feel like when you did that?

    24. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka59:13

        Uh, it's hard to e- explain because you have to understand, I'm ... I was really resistant to w- ... To the-

    25. JRJoe Rogan59:20

        Right.

    26. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka59:20

        You know, 10 years ago, think about it, this was a time period when we weren't talking about UFOs.

    27. JRJoe Rogan59:26

        Right, it was ridiculous.

    28. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka59:27

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan59:27

        Until 2017.

    30. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka59:28

        That's right.
11. 1:03:38 – 1:20:38

    Vatican astronomy archives, pine cones, and DMT as a ‘gateway’ symbol

    1. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:03:38

       ... And it was at the Vatican where we encountered ... Where a lot of things happened for Tyler that I saw made him understand that this was something that had been going on historically for a very long time period. See, we didn't just go to the Vatican, we also went to the ... Well, we went to the Vatican Archive, um, which is hard to get into, but I could get into it. And we also went to the Space Observatory Archive, which most people don't even know that the Vatican has a Space Observatory. And how that all happened was not set up, Joe. It was not. It was so organic, um, because it happened before I even met Tyler and I put off going there because I have ... I had at the time very young kids and I didn't want to leave them and go to another country, um, for, you know, three weeks or whatnot. And ... But I had been invited by Brother Guy Consolmagno to go to the Space Observatory because I had been studying about the space re-... You know, research and I said, "Does the Vatican have like a lot of space documents? You know, documents about space?" And he said, "Every single thing that the Vatican does and they ... And we do," he said, "comes to where I live, which is at the Space Observatory. And we have a scholar's residence and you're welcome to stay for as long as you want. You have full access to the Space Observatory Archive." And-

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

       What is it like?

    3. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:01

       It's great.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:05:02

       Expre-... Expe-

    5. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:02

       It's great.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:05:03

       Describe it to me.

    7. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:04

       Okay. Well, for me it's great.

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:05:06

       Right.

    9. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:06

       Many people may think, "Oh, how boring." Right? But original Keplers and Copernicuses and, you know, every single thing that people, scientists from 1200, 1300 on up thought about space and about magnetism and propulsion and things like that, it's all there. Every one of them. And so you go in there and we had full access to it, Tyler and I.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:05:32

        Why does the Vatican have that?

    11. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:34

        Well, the Vatican would have it so because, you know, who was doing this 500 years ago? There was no United States.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:05:41

        Right.

    13. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:41

        So of course they're going to have it. They also have an amazing meteorite collection. Um, they have a lot of really cool things there. And they're ... Again, they're these monks. They're astrophysicist monks and they're just hanging out there. They've got the best lattes, by the way. (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:05:55

        (laughs) Italians.

    15. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:57

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:05:58

        They know how to eat.

    17. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:05:59

        Um, my experience though of the Vatican itself was different than the archive. Um, and I've actually heard you talk about the Vatican and I agree. Like you said, you were ... I saw you talking about it and you said, "You know, I'm looking around and I see all this stuff and they stole it from all these, you know, countries. It was like all this booty, you know, the Vatican is filled with it." That was-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:06:19

        Yeah.

    19. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:06:19

        ... my experience as well. So when I went, you know, we did all the ... We did the scholarship, of course, but we also did the touristy thing. So, you know, we went and looked at all the museum and everything like that. And everything I saw seemed to me to be like, you know, colonization. You know, the colonization of these people and taking their stuff-

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:06:37

        Mm-hmm.

    21. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:06:38

        And the colonization of these people and taking their stuff. And they have it all there. And, um, when you're inside the Vatican, by the way, it's different than when you're outside of it because, you know, when you're outside of it, there are those guys that-... that, uh, the Swiss Guards. Well, those guys are militia when you go inside, and they're everywhere.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:06:57

        Mm. The thing that fascinated me about it was the- the- just the volume.

    23. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:07:03

        Yeah.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:07:04

        The volume. It's like they're hoarders for insane art.

    25. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:07:08

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:07:09

        I mean, there's stuff that should be in its own room, and it's just stacked next to other stuff that also should be in its own room.

    27. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:07:16

        (laughs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:07:16

        It's almost like they don't have enough space-

    29. DPDiana Walsh Pasulka1:07:18

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:07:18

        ... for all the stuff that they have.
12. 1:20:38 – 1:37:25

    Religious experiences as contact cases: stigmata, halos, the Shroud, and “two data sets”

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:20:38

       So, that leads us to one of the most fascinating interpretations of what we're experiencing, collectively, when it comes to this UFO, UAP, whatever it is, phenomenon. That this is not a thing from another planet that comes on a spaceship and, and lands here to show us how to do things correctly. But that they've always been here, and that they are the things that are being described in Ezekiel. That they, they are a phenomenon that is both here and not here at the same time. That it's ... You're, you are literally dealing with angels and demons. That this is, that this, this phenomenon is connected to these ancient stories of religion, and it's, it's not as simple as other beings like us from somewhere else.

Episode duration: 2:17:40