Joe Rogan Experience #2100 - Steven Rinella & Cameron Hanes

Steven Rinella 0:00 (drum roll) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Cameron Hanes 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) You're good to go.

Joe Rogan 0:12 All right. Steve Rinella, Cam Hanes, what's happening? Good to see you guys.

Steven Rinella 0:16 Yeah, thanks for having me out, man.

Joe Rogan 0:18 My pleasure. Cam, explain that ridiculous thing around your neck. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 0:21 What? What are you talking about?

Joe Rogan 0:23 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 0:24 (claps) Oh, this?

Joe Rogan 0:25 That thing.

Cameron Hanes 0:26 Oh. Oh.

Steven Rinella 0:26 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 0:28 What, what cam- where am I? What camera am I on?

Joe Rogan 0:30 Uh, right there.

Cameron Hanes 0:31 Yeah. So this is, uh, how badass is this? Solid gold mold of-

Joe Rogan 0:37 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 0:38 ... this is my first brown bear I killed with Roy. So they made a mold off this claw. I had this just tanned hide laying around, I'm like, "I gotta, we gotta... I don't know, what's it gonna do, just lay there?" So I'm like, "I gotta have something." And I took it to Skee's jewe- jeweler, which has been in Eugene for 104 years, so it's kind of a cool little story. And they came up with this crazy necklace. So it's... Oh, they wanted me to tell you, it's, uh, it's r- re- uh, what is it? It's not d- not newly mined gold. It's-

Steven Rinella 1:10 Recl- oh, reclaimed?

Cameron Hanes 1:11 Reclaimed, yeah. Yeah.

Steven Rinella 1:12 Oh, okay.

Cameron Hanes 1:13 So they're not ruining the planet to get it.

Steven Rinella 1:14 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:15 So they wanted me to- this is, like, reclaimed gold. But it's solid, and then there's six carats of rubies on there and black diamonds, so.

Joe Rogan 1:22 So the rubies, if- if people can't see it-

Cameron Hanes 1:23 If this is a ridiculous thing you're talking about-

Joe Rogan 1:25 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:26 ... yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:26 Okay.

Cameron Hanes 1:26 That was it.

Joe Rogan 1:27 Yeah. So the rubies, though-

Steven Rinella 1:28 That's a lot of pawn shop wedding rings laid up in there, man.

Joe Rogan 1:31 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:31 I know (laughs) a lot of failed marriages there.

Joe Rogan 1:33 Failed dreams. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:34 This, yeah, this is probably-

Steven Rinella 1:36 Because you know where that, that's where that came from.

Joe Rogan 1:37 I don't know, but for sure.

Steven Rinella 1:37 It didn't come from, like, gold wiring.

Cameron Hanes 1:38 Yeah, like, fif- 50 failed marriages right here.

Steven Rinella 1:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:41 And the rubies look like blood.

Cameron Hanes 1:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:43 So what, what they did was, it's pretty fucking dope, they made the rubies, if you could hold it up for the camera there so people can see it, the rubies look like it's dipped in blood.

Cameron Hanes 1:53 There's black diamonds, too.

Steven Rinella 1:54 Oh, nice.

Joe Rogan 1:55 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 1:56 That's a lot, dude.

Cameron Hanes 1:57 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 1:57 You're balling out of control, son.

Cameron Hanes 1:58 I know, I know. It's crazy. So the last, I had that one from Scooby, the CH he made for me.

Steven Rinella 2:03 Yeah (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 2:03 Never worn it since, but I wore it here.

Joe Rogan 2:05 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 2:05 Then the last time I had, my son, uh, had an ivory from a bull I killed in Arizona. He just put it on a leather strap, and that was my last podcast, uh, adornment. Now here we are.

Joe Rogan 2:18 Cody Garbrandt gave me one that has my dog's face on one side.

Cameron Hanes 2:21 Yes, I saw that.

Joe Rogan 2:22 And the other side it has the JRE logo. I'm like, either one of them is too weird for me to wear.

Steven Rinella 2:25 Carved into an ivory?

Joe Rogan 2:27 No, no, no. It's solid gold.

Steven Rinella 2:28 Oh. Oh, solid gold. Oh.

Joe Rogan 2:29 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 2:29 I was gonna say, that's some intricate carving.

Joe Rogan 2:31 Yeah. It's, it's so ridiculous (laughs) .

Cameron Hanes 2:33 Hey, no, there's no limit now, obviously.

Joe Rogan 2:35 You got any jewelry, Rinella? Come on, Steve.

Steven Rinella 2:37 Uh-uh, no.

Joe Rogan 2:37 Nothing?

Steven Rinella 2:38 Uh-uh.

Joe Rogan 2:39 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 2:39 I, I don't... No tattoos, no jewelry, man.

Joe Rogan 2:42 What is, what is?

Steven Rinella 2:42 They'll never... If, if I ever turn up-

Joe Rogan 2:44 Do you have a rubber wedding ring?

Steven Rinella 2:45 ... dead in the lake, they won't be able to identify me.

Joe Rogan 2:46 Do you have a rubber wedding ring? Do you wear one of those?

Steven Rinella 2:48 Well, I, I went from regular to silicon to n- nothing.

Joe Rogan 2:54 Yeah?

Steven Rinella 2:54 I don't wear one anymore.

Joe Rogan 2:55 You ever throw it back in?

Steven Rinella 2:56 My wife doesn't wear one very often.

Joe Rogan 2:57 Oh, yeah?

Steven Rinella 2:58 Uh-uh. No, don't wear one. Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 3:00 I'd, I'd yell at my wife.

Steven Rinella 3:02 Yeah, but-

Joe Rogan 3:02 Where the fuck you going?

Steven Rinella 3:03 Well, I know, but I, like-

Joe Rogan 3:04 Put that leash on. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 3:05 It's not like anyone comes and, it's not like anyone comes and scams on me now, you know?

Joe Rogan 3:08 Right. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 3:08 I'm a little beyond that. I just smell like, I smell like a married dude. I don't need that thing.

Joe Rogan 3:12 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 3:12 I get it.

Steven Rinella 3:13 You know?

Cameron Hanes 3:13 I don't know, I just always...

Joe Rogan 3:15 I, I don't mind wearing it. And I, and I love these silicon ones. These are great.

Steven Rinella 3:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:18 You can lift weights in them, you can do... I don't do, I do everything in them. I'll sleep-

Steven Rinella 3:21 I had a couple accidents with snagging it, and then arced it on a battery, the metal one.

Joe Rogan 3:26 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 3:26 And then I got on this thing, and people were sending us all these pictures, too, of, uh, what they call de-gloving.

Joe Rogan 3:32 Sheathing.

Steven Rinella 3:33 Yeah, where you pull it off.

Joe Rogan 3:34 Oh.

Steven Rinella 3:34 Man, we got just people sending horrible pictures, like-

Joe Rogan 3:36 Oh.

Steven Rinella 3:37 ... guys catching them on a ladder rack on a truck and then, like, jumping down.

Joe Rogan 3:42 Ugh.

Steven Rinella 3:43 Endlessly. And that cured me forever, that metal one.

Joe Rogan 3:46 Yeah, the metal one-

Steven Rinella 3:46 I still have, I kept the metal one in a little baggie.

Joe Rogan 3:49 I will wear the metal one if I go to dinner with my wife.

Steven Rinella 3:51 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan 3:51 Or if I'm doing the UFC I'll wear the metal one, if I have a nice watch on. But I never wear it other than that.

Steven Rinella 3:57 Oh, that's cute that you put it on at dinner.

Joe Rogan 3:58 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 3:58 I'm gonna do that sometime.

Joe Rogan 3:59 We do date nights.

Cameron Hanes 4:00 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 4:00 You put your ring on?

Joe Rogan 4:01 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 4:02 I'm gonna start doing that.

Joe Rogan 4:02 Well, I always wear my re- my, my rubber ring, the silicon ring, but the, uh, the metal one I'll put out when we're going out.

Steven Rinella 4:08 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 4:09 Put a nice one on. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 4:10 Dude, I'm gonna take that little tip, man.

Joe Rogan 4:12 It's a good tip. It's a good tip for date night.

Cameron Hanes 4:15 I, I had to use mine for this, on my wedding ring.

Joe Rogan 4:19 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 4:21 (laughs) She, your wife's like, "Where's your wedding ring?" "Well-

Joe Rogan 4:24 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 4:24 ... you know this necklace I got."

Joe Rogan 4:25 "I still have it." (laughs)

Steven Rinella 4:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:27 "It's just assumed its final form."

Cameron Hanes 4:29 I wear it all the time. I'm wearing it right now.

Joe Rogan 4:31 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 4:32 My buddy in Alaska, he had, uh, he had... H- his wife kept all of her jewelry in this little box, and their house burnt down. And he later went and found all that stuff. Like, it melted into a blob. So, she, she took that blob and took it to a jeweler and had that blob turned into a big old necklace.

Joe Rogan 4:53 Oh.

Steven Rinella 4:53 So it's just like this amorphous glob of-

Joe Rogan 4:56 Oh, just a glob with no change to it?

Steven Rinella 4:58 Oh, yeah, like this amorphous glob of gold that she'll put on now and then, and it was like all of her, like, stuff in this little pile that...

Joe Rogan 5:04 Wow.

Steven Rinella 5:05 Mel- yeah, melted together.

Joe Rogan 5:06 That must've been a fucking hell of a fire.

Steven Rinella 5:08 Oh, yeah. Oh, no, it was, for sure. And she didn't, like, wear it, wear it, but she would get it out and be like, "Oh, here's all my..."

Joe Rogan 5:14 (laughs) All in a lump.

Steven Rinella 5:15 ... "Here's all my stuff."

Cameron Hanes 5:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:17 Yeah. The jewelry thing is a weird thing. People that r- get really into... One of the things we're gonna do for Protect Our Parks, we've been talking about doing this, is get grills like the rappers wear.

Steven Rinella 5:27 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:27 We're all gonna wear grills during the podcast.

Cameron Hanes 5:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:29 So, so we gotta get fitted with, like, diamond grills. They take little diamond dust and you smile like Paul Wall, and you have a full mouth full of diamonds.

Cameron Hanes 5:40 I think it'd look badass. That's my next move.

Joe Rogan 5:44 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 5:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:44 Just fangs.

Steven Rinella 5:46 When I... I have a tooth that got knocked out, and it's, it's like one of those caps. And one time, we were drinking, and I l- when I was younger, we were drinking and I was trying to open a... There used to be that company that made tequila that had, like, a sombrero for a lid.

Joe Rogan 6:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 6:02 And I was opening one of these bottles-... and broke that fake tooth off.

Joe Rogan 6:07 Oh, no.

Steven Rinella 6:08 And all night, I'm going on about how I'm getting a gold.

Cameron Hanes 6:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:12 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 6:12 Because it's gone, you know? And all night, I'm, like, making a plan, talking all this until (laughs) I woke up in the morning and looked in the mirror, and I just wanted a white, a regular white tooth back so bad.

Cameron Hanes 6:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:23 (Laughs) Yeah. Those things.

Cameron Hanes 6:24 There it is.

Joe Rogan 6:24 So you opened it up with your tooth?

Steven Rinella 6:26 Yeah, I broke that tooth, and then, like, got fired up about getting a gold one. And, uh, no, never did it. That'd been the closest thing I had towards jewelry was my gold tooth, but chickened out.

Cameron Hanes 6:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:35 That would've looked sick. Yeah. I thought about a gold tooth for brief moments, generally while drinking. (laughs) Get one of them.

Cameron Hanes 6:43 They-

Steven Rinella 6:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:44 They have those where they just put a little diamond on it now.

Cameron Hanes 6:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 6:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:48 I've seen those.

Steven Rinella 6:48 My old man told me that during the war, guys would carry around, uh, dental picks. And he fought World War II. He said during the war, they would carry it around and you would, they would go and get all the... They would get the gold out of Germans' teeth.

Joe Rogan 7:02 True.

Cameron Hanes 7:03 (gasps)

Steven Rinella 7:03 And save it up in a bag. And there were certain guys who was just into it.

Cameron Hanes 7:06 Ooh.

Steven Rinella 7:07 I remember as a kid I asked him, like, "Hey, would they ever get it from an American?" And he goes, "That'd be a good way to get shot." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:13 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 7:13 But, but they'd dig it out of there.

Joe Rogan 7:15 Hmm.

Cameron Hanes 7:16 Phew.

Steven Rinella 7:16 Which is a macabre business, man.

Cameron Hanes 7:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:18 Very macabre.

Cameron Hanes 7:19 They... People used to dig up graves to do that, right?

Steven Rinella 7:22 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 7:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:23 Well, the original fillings, the silver ones, were those lead?

Steven Rinella 7:28 Don't know.

Joe Rogan 7:29 'Cause they used to have fillings-

Steven Rinella 7:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:31 ... that were metal. Like, and I remember people were saying, "Hey, those are fucking terrible for you."

Steven Rinella 7:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:36 Like, they figured it out years later.

Cameron Hanes 7:37 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 7:37 It's like living your whole life with a fishing sinker in your mouth, man.

Cameron Hanes 7:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 7:40 Have you seen sh- you, you saw Shane Gillis last night?

Cameron Hanes 7:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:43 How funny is that dude?

Cameron Hanes 7:44 Oh my God, he's hilarious.

Joe Rogan 7:45 He's so funny. He had a bit about George Washington, and it's one of the funniest bits I've ever seen in my life. And George... It's like a whole bit about going to the George Washington museum-

Steven Rinella 7:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:53 ... 'cause he's, he's a real history buff. But one of the things was George Washington's teeth. Like, George Washington's teeth were s-

Steven Rinella 8:00 His wooden teeth?

Joe Rogan 8:00 No, no, they weren't wooden. They were set in lead. Like, the-

Steven Rinella 8:04 Oh, is that right?

Joe Rogan 8:04 ... the, the m- the fake thing that he had was set in lead. The top was horse teeth and the bottom was slave teeth.

Cameron Hanes 8:11 Phew.

Joe Rogan 8:12 So they'd have teeth pulled from his slave to make-

Steven Rinella 8:16 No.

Joe Rogan 8:16 Yes, yes. And then that thing was set in lead with springs on it, and that was George Washington's teeth.

Cameron Hanes 8:24 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:25 I mean, how fucking crazy is that?

Cameron Hanes 8:29 Nice.

Joe Rogan 8:29 But, but his whole bit is about how George Washington had lead poisoning, he was a fucking maniac.

Cameron Hanes 8:34 (sniffs) Wow.

Joe Rogan 8:34 'Cause he was at the front of the line-

Steven Rinella 8:36 Horses, donkeys, cows, and human beings.

Joe Rogan 8:37 (laughs) Just fucking ha... Ah.

Cameron Hanes 8:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:40 You have to see the bit, it's very funny. Uh, folklore notwithstanding, Wash- Washington's f- uh, false teeth were not wooden. He obtained them instead from horses, donkeys, cows, and human beings. According to his account books, 1784, emulating some of his affluent friends, he bought nine teeth from unidentified negroes, perhaps enslaved African Americans at his beloved Mount Vernon.

Cameron Hanes 9:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:02 The price was 122 shillings.

Cameron Hanes 9:05 (sniffs)

Joe Rogan 9:05 Yeah. I mean, imagine eating with that fucking monstrosity of lead in your f-

Cameron Hanes 9:13 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 9:13 And he... So he's got that in his mouth all the time.

Cameron Hanes 9:15 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:15 He's getting lead poisoning.

Cameron Hanes 9:17 Hmm, that's pretty intense.

Joe Rogan 9:19 Pretty intense.

Steven Rinella 9:20 Having another dude's teeth in your mouth, too, is wild.

Joe Rogan 9:23 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 9:23 I had a cadaver bone in my jaw for a while, and you'd... And you'd get little sp- you know, little pieces of it, and you were always spitting out little pieces of some guy.

Joe Rogan 9:34 Whoa.

Cameron Hanes 9:34 Oh.

Steven Rinella 9:36 Some other dude, you know.

Joe Rogan 9:36 You had it for a while? They took it out?

Steven Rinella 9:38 Well, no, it just heals up.

Joe Rogan 9:40 Oh.

Steven Rinella 9:40 So they drill a hole in there and they fill it full of cadaver bone.

Joe Rogan 9:46 Whoa.

Steven Rinella 9:46 And I asked who the dude was, you know, they can't figure out who he was.

Joe Rogan 9:49 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 9:50 I have, uh-

Steven Rinella 9:50 Put... You're, like, all over your office or whatever, you're like, pfft. Some little chunk of a guy you don't know.

Joe Rogan 9:55 (laughs) My right knee is a cadaver ACL tendon.

Steven Rinella 9:58 Ah.

Joe Rogan 9:59 But it's not, um... It's not anymore. What happens is that your body re-poli- proliferates it.

Steven Rinella 10:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:05 So i- it just acts as a scaffolding, and then-

Steven Rinella 10:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:08 ... your body just fills it in with its own tissue. They actually-

Steven Rinella 10:10 They ever give you, they ever give you info about the person?

Joe Rogan 10:12 No, no. I just tell them, "Get me a Viking."

Steven Rinella 10:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:15 "Get me some fucking gigantic dude-"

Cameron Hanes 10:17 Yeah. 'Cause you're up there-

Joe Rogan 10:18 "... who's been swinging a battleax his whole life."

Steven Rinella 10:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:20 The, uh... They actually use the Achilles tendon, though.

Steven Rinella 10:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:23 'Cause it's much thicker than-

Steven Rinella 10:25 Yeah, uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 10:25 ... the or- original ACL. It's, like, 150% stronger than an initial ACL. But I would do that operation again in a heartbeat. I've always told everybody, I've had my knees done both ways. I had my left knee done with a patella tendon graft, which was the most painful and took forever to recover from. And then I had my right knee done with a cadaver graft, it was way easier. I went to a party five days after the operation with no crutches, no nothing.

Cameron Hanes 10:51 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:51 I just put a brace on and walked. And I was like, "This feels fine."

Steven Rinella 10:55 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:56 I mean, it was da- obviously unstable, I guess. It was weaker. So I c- I put the brace on, but, uh, it w- I was... I could walk around, like it was... It was not that big a deal. The first one, I was in fucking agony for months.

Cameron Hanes 11:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:08 At least weeks. 'Cause they, they have to saw... What they do is they take your patella tendon, which is a very large, thick tendon, you don't need all of that, and they take a strip of it. And then they take-

Steven Rinella 11:20 Like s- like peel- ... and string cheese.

Joe Rogan 11:21 Yeah, exactly.

Steven Rinella 11:22 You know?

Joe Rogan 11:22 And then they take a chunk of your kneecap and a chunk of your shin. So they pull that out, and then they open you up like a fish, and then they screw it in on the top and screw it in on the bottom, and that's your new ACL.

Steven Rinella 11:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:33 So it's a part of your body-

Cameron Hanes 11:35 Oh.

Joe Rogan 11:35 ... so your body accepts it.

Steven Rinella 11:36 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 11:37 It's not like a- another person's tissue, which, you know, could be a- an issue. Your body might reject it. And then, you know, it takes a long-ass time before you can even get on your knees again. It took, like, a year before it doesn't bother me to, like, be on my knees. You know, like, if you're hammering something or something. I, I couldn't get on that knee. It was just so fucking painful.

Steven Rinella 11:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:56 'Cause, you know, you got a hole there and a hole in the kneecap, but it all fills in eventually.

Steven Rinella 12:01 Hmm. Well-

Joe Rogan 12:02 Both of them are fine now, but if I were to tell people if they're gonna get the operation, get the fucking cadaver. Get that dead dude.

Steven Rinella 12:08 That's risky. Now, what if you get a, a vegan that's a vaccinated cadaver?

Joe Rogan 12:13 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 12:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:14 Fuck.

Steven Rinella 12:14 Your knee's gonna blow out, like-

Joe Rogan 12:15 It's just flimsy. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 12:16 ... every day, every day.

Joe Rogan 12:18 Just fl- (laughs) Like, flimsy string cheese.

Steven Rinella 12:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:21 Like when your bow string is getting frayed-

Steven Rinella 12:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:23 ... and you're like, "Damn, should I replace this?"

Steven Rinella 12:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:25 Like, when your D-loop-

Steven Rinella 12:26 This fucking vegan-

Joe Rogan 12:27 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 12:27 ... screwed me on this-

Joe Rogan 12:29 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 12:29 ... on this ligament.

Joe Rogan 12:32 Yeah. Poor vegans, man. Boy, they-

Steven Rinella 12:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:34 You want to talk about people that have been sold billed goods?

Steven Rinella 12:37 Not very durable, are they?

Joe Rogan 12:38 It's not, it's not just that. It's like, there's so much propaganda that that is good for you, and there's so much evidence that it's not, and this mindset that these folk, fucking people have, where they're just, like, they believe The China Study, they believe meat causes cancer. I've had conversations with people, we try to be rational with them, like, "If meat really caused cancer, do you know that 95% of the people on Earth eat meat?"

Steven Rinella 13:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:02 And they go, "Well, look at all the cancer." Well, yeah, but look at all the other food they eat.

Steven Rinella 13:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:06 Do you understand how-

Steven Rinella 13:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:07 ... epidemiology studies work? Like, when they-

Steven Rinella 13:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:09 ... you know, when they g- have these arguments, no one ever takes it to this, like, rational conclusion. Like, what, what they, do you know how they work? The epidemiology studies?

Steven Rinella 13:19 No.

Joe Rogan 13:19 When they, when they say, like if they say there's been a correlation between high consumption of red meat and cancer-

Steven Rinella 13:24 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:25 ... people who eat red meat five times a week are much more likely than pe- what are they eating with it?

Steven Rinella 13:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:30 They don't-

Steven Rinella 13:30 Fries.

Joe Rogan 13:31 ... take that into effect 'cause it's not a real study. It's bullshit.

Steven Rinella 13:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:34 What they're doing is just trying to come up with some biased interpretation of data that makes it seem more likely that meat is killing you.

Steven Rinella 13:42 I was trying to explain, uh, correlation, causation, all that-

Joe Rogan 13:45 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 13:45 ... to my kid the other night. I was telling him about s- stuff like this, like, uh, education levels and divorce rates, right?

Joe Rogan 13:54 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 13:55 I'm like, no one, no one's gonna untangle what it is, but you can look at these things and see that there's something going on, but no one knows exactly what, right?

Joe Rogan 14:02 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 14:03 So with the s- stuff like that, it's like, "So did you eat a lot of meat?" "Uh-huh."

Joe Rogan 14:06 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 14:06 It's like, okay, well, yeah, in what, what form? Where? What were you doing?

Joe Rogan 14:11 It's not even what form.

Steven Rinella 14:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:12 It's what else are you eating?

Steven Rinella 14:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:14 If they're only looking for red meat, so they're, they're asking you in these studies, like, "How many days a week do you eat red meat?" And then you say, "Five," and they say, "Well, we've gathered up all the data, and the people that eat red meat five days a week are much more likely to have cancer." Yeah, but most people who eat red meat are eating burgers, and they're eating burgers from, like, Jack in the Box or whatever-

Steven Rinella 14:34 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 14:34 ... where you get this bullshit bun, you get these fries that are made in seed oil. You're probably washing it down with a Coca-Cola. You're flooding your body with unnatural levels of sugar and these carbohydrates that are all processed with folic acid and bullshit, and they're fucking terrible for you.

Steven Rinella 14:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:52 And your gut is just inflamed, and your whole body's freaked out. And then do you smoke cigarettes, and do you drink alcohol, and do you live near a fucking power line? Like, there's like-

Steven Rinella 15:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:04 ... there's so-

Steven Rinella 15:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:04 ... there's so many factors that lead you to ... If it was just, like, it ... I want to see a study on people who eat wild game or grass-fed beef and just fucking vegetables.

Steven Rinella 15:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:15 Like, are those studies ... Like, I bet those folks aren't getting, like, high instances of cancer.

Steven Rinella 15:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:20 You know, cancer is, like, there's a lot of environmental factors. There's a lot of, a lot of genetic factors. There's a lot of things that lead people to get cancer. It's not just what you eat. But when they say meat, like, what else are you eating? Why are you blaming meat?

Steven Rinella 15:35 Well, what I used to do is go to McDonald's. So yeah, it had red meat, 'cause in the burger, two plain hamburgers, large fry, apple pie, uh, Diet Coke, and a milkshake.

Joe Rogan 15:49 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 15:49 Just think about all the bullshit in there.

15:51 So, yeah.

15:51 And they're like, "Do you eat a lot of meat?" Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 15:53 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 15:53 Blame the meat.

15:54 Right. And it was like, look at ... To, to your point, look at all that other shit-

15:58 Yeah.

15:58 ... sugar and carbs and-

Joe Rogan 15:59 Exactly.

Steven Rinella 16:00 ... all that oil in that meal right there would probably kill you.

Joe Rogan 16:03 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 16:04 And some people, it's the same people going through McDonald's or Burger King or Wendy's-

Joe Rogan 16:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 16:08 ... every single day getting their go-to ... Yeah, so those are the people that you're asking about, "Do you eat red meat?"

Joe Rogan 16:13 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 16:14 And of course they are, but look at all ... But yeah, I just got my blood test yesterday from my ... Get it tested every once in a while, and my numbers are phenomenal. I eat meat (laughs) five times a day.

Joe Rogan 16:28 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 16:28 I mean, I'm eating meat all day, all wild game meat, though. So- I found that people also have ... I was talking about this the other day with my buddy, Seth, where people also have a tendency to, um, find ... Th- they, they, there, there's so much conflicting dietary information that people also will find something that aligns with their aesthetic-

Joe Rogan 16:53 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 16:53 ... right, or that it aligns with their political sensibility, meaning, um, someone, you know, i- if your general tendency is to be opposed to meat production, certain agricultural practices, and you see an article where it says, you know, h- high meat diet correlates with cancer, they're gonna read that with great enthusiasm.

Joe Rogan 17:18 Yes.

Steven Rinella 17:19 Mm-hmm.

17:19 Yeah, confirmation bias.

Joe Rogan 17:19 Yes.

Steven Rinella 17:19 'Cause they're gonna be like, "Oh, this lines up with a bunch of shit I already think."

Joe Rogan 17:23 Yeah, exactly.

Steven Rinella 17:24 You know? And so when we were talking about this, we were trying to ... I was sorta teasing out, right, like, I like to have a garden. I like to hunt. And I look with fondness upon data that suggests that eating, like, fresh veggies and meat is really good for you. And it definitely feels good, but I'm sort of like, am I ... You know what I mean? Do I make the same mistake that, that I tease other people for making? Like, if I read some study that said, you know, eating mule deers, you know, the best thing you can possibly do, I'd be like, "Now that's my kinda study." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:00 Yeah, yeah, but it, it just makes logical sense.

Steven Rinella 18:03 Yeah, it does, for sure.

Joe Rogan 18:04 You, you understand the building blocks of human beings and, like, what's necessary to-... promote, you know, all the things that you need that only come from animal tissue. B12, collagen. There's like, there's so much stuff that you can get from meat that you're just not gonna get from anywhere else. So whenever I see an athlete that starts going on a vegan diet, I look at it the same way as like a snake handler. Like, "Okay, let's see how this plays out." Yeah, what-what plays out- Like, you're gonna get bit. It plays- It's gonna, it's gonna take some time.

Steven Rinella 18:32 Plays out the same-

Joe Rogan 18:33 But it's like-

Steven Rinella 18:33 ... every time.

Joe Rogan 18:33 I always, it's like, I have a friend, uh, and he was like, "My girlfriend's gonna let me do threesomes." The moment I hear things- (laughs) ... like that-

Steven Rinella 18:42 That's my kind of article.

Joe Rogan 18:43 ... I have the exact, the exact same feeling- (laughs) ... as like someone coming up to me saying, "Hey man, I started making my own bombs." Like- (laughs) Yeah.

Steven Rinella 18:52 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:52 I have this, this-

Steven Rinella 18:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:53 ... this is not gonna work out. (laughs) I know, I know a guy that went through something like what you're talking about. Wh- it, you know, it, I remember when he broke it out for me about like some like deal he had arrived at- (laughs)

Steven Rinella 19:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:05 ... in his marriage. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 19:08 It looks good on paper.

Joe Rogan 19:09 And I got kids. (laughs) Fuck.

Steven Rinella 19:10 I've never seen an example once and it working.

Joe Rogan 19:12 I can't tell you how I know, but I could just tell you that this is not a good idea. (laughs) It never works.

Steven Rinella 19:18 Yeah, I mean, uh, if you, if you just sketch it out right here-

Joe Rogan 19:21 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 19:21 ... it might look all right.

Joe Rogan 19:22 Yeah, it's not, she's gonna kill you in your sleep, bro.

Steven Rinella 19:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:24 This is not gonna work. (laughs) It's not, this is real.

Steven Rinella 19:27 God.

Joe Rogan 19:27 Get out now. Oh, yeah.

Steven Rinella 19:29 Yeah, but, you know, the, the vegan diet thing, it's just, it's so unfortunate that people have been... It's like, it's such a... I, I get how you could come to this sort of idea where if you just eat vegetables then you're not as responsible for killing, but one of the real problems is, well first of all, there's the real problem of farming, you know? That, es- especially industrial mono-crop agriculture, goddamn, they kill a lot of things to get that crop out. Mm.

Joe Rogan 19:57 They kill, they kill everything that's in the ground when they're using the combines. They use people to kill groundhogs. They're killing all the varmints and gophers and everything gets fucking killed, right? We all know that. Ground nesting birds, uh, fawns get chewed up. There's a lot of things that happen. But then on top of that, there's emerging evidence that plants have intelligence. That not only do they have intelligence, but they communicate through the mycelium in the ground.

Steven Rinella 20:24 Mm.

Joe Rogan 20:24 And that (clears throat) they, they share resources, like they allocate resources towards plants that need it more.

Steven Rinella 20:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:32 There's, there's, there's evidence that they communicate with each other. Like for instance, like, the acacia tree which (clears throat) there's, there's trees in Africa where when giraffes eat them, if they're downwind, the other trees that are downwind will start producing a potent chemical that makes their leaves taste like shit.

Steven Rinella 20:56 Mm.

Joe Rogan 20:56 So that they know that they're getting chewed on by, you know, "Oh my god, there's a giraffe in the neighborhood," start tasting like shit.

Steven Rinella 21:03 Mm.

Joe Rogan 21:03 And so they release chemicals. I mean, how insane is that?

Steven Rinella 21:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:07 They, not only is it that, but they have now shown that they can play recordings- Of water. Oh. Okay. ... of insects eating the leaves. And if they play those recordings next to the plant, the plant will start producing those toxic chemicals.

Steven Rinella 21:23 Mm-hmm. So-

Joe Rogan 21:24 That make them taste bad, so it's-

Steven Rinella 21:26 I've read that about willows. I never check to see how like valid it is, but that, that a willow will send root tendrils in the direction of the sound of running water.

Joe Rogan 21:36 (clicks tongue) That makes sense. Hm.

Steven Rinella 21:36 I don't know, it's cool. Sorry, Joe, I didn't mean to step over you again.

Joe Rogan 21:39 Oh, no, no. I was just saying, so it's, it's sound and also you said, before you said it was downwind. Yeah, downwind too. So it's, it's scent and sound. It's, it's a bunch of things that they don't understand-

Steven Rinella 21:49 Hm.

Joe Rogan 21:49 ... 'cause they don't have noses. You know, like they don't have ears. Like how, how does the sound of caterpillars eating leaves change the, the chemical structure of these plants? Like how are they knowing, "Okay, time to let loose the poison."

Steven Rinella 22:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:04 How are they, how are they getting it because they're downwind, but-

Steven Rinella 22:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:07 ... it gets so bad that a- animals, some animals that try to eat them, they wind up starving to death because they don't wanna eat this stuff 'cause it tastes that bad.

Steven Rinella 22:16 Mm. You're, uh, I can see where you're going with this, is that sometime down the road there's gonna be some tough decisions for people who are looking for general-

Joe Rogan 22:24 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 22:24 ... well, like, uh, not wanting to harm-

Joe Rogan 22:27 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 22:28 ... creatures.

Joe Rogan 22:28 Yeah, if you're looking-

Steven Rinella 22:29 And when you have to face the fact that here's this like semi-sentient, communicative plant that you're yanking out- (laughs) yanking out of the ground.

Joe Rogan 22:37 Yeah, it just can't move quick. And it does move, and if you watch high speed images of tr- of plants growing, you know, and moving with the breeze, you're like, "Oh-"

Steven Rinella 22:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:48 ... "it's just a different kind of movement."

Steven Rinella 22:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:50 Like it's, it's clearly growing. Like it grows forever. It's not even like another animal. It's kind of more fantastic 'cause it'll grow for 100 fucking years-

Steven Rinella 22:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:59 ... and keep growing. Or if you go to the like, some of those crazy, um, in Northern California, there's trees that have been around for 1,000 years.

Steven Rinella 23:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:07 It's wild shit, man.

Steven Rinella 23:09 Yeah. Yeah, I'll, uh, like, you know, I'll hunt all manner of stuff and I used to work as a tree surgeon and we'd fell trees, but at our place in Southeast Alaska, which is in the, uh, coastal rainforest and we're in an area of old growth where our stuff's at, um, I'm not con- like in no way condemning people to do, I would not be able to put a chainsaw on one of those trees.

Joe Rogan 23:35 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 23:35 Like the, you know what I mean? Like we, like everyone finds their sort of limits, and when I'm looking at some tree that's, whatever, 400 or 500 years old-

Joe Rogan 23:43 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 23:44 I personally, you know, I could kill a bear without thinking about it. Not without thinking about it, but yeah, I can kill a bear and be real happy I did. Man, just I personally couldn't put a saw to one of those trees.

Joe Rogan 23:55 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 23:55 So people fi- uh, you find these, you find these lines.

Joe Rogan 23:59 Well, there's also the renewable resource of bears. You know, if you're gonna kill a bear and eat a bear, that bear is nine years old, nine years is not that big a deal.

Steven Rinella 24:07 Yeah, it ain't 400. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:09 That's, yeah, I mean-

Steven Rinella 24:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:10 There was a, I was in Scotland recently.

Steven Rinella 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:13 And they, they had this tree, like this is the oldest tree that, that, you know, is in Europe. And I was like, "How old's this fucking tree?" And they're like, "It's like a 5,000-year-old tree." I'm like, "How is that possible?"

Steven Rinella 24:24 Yeah, it's incredible.

Joe Rogan 24:25 ... see if you can find that. Like, the oldest-

Steven Rinella 24:26 I don't know that.

Joe Rogan 24:26 ... tree in Scotland. It was a crazy, gnarled-up-looking, fucked-up tree. I was like, "How old?" I'm- I might be wrong with the age, but it was crazy old.

Steven Rinella 24:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:34 And I was like, "Whoa." Like, "How do you know? How do you know how old this is?" When you go to Europe, Scotland was amazing. I took this trip with my wife, and we went to visit these sites where they have these stone circles that are older than Stonehenge.

Steven Rinella 24:48 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:48 And they're, like, right in front of this dude's house.

Cameron Hanes 24:50 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 24:51 (laughs) Nice.

Joe Rogan 24:51 Like, this dude has a house, and then there's a small street, like a two-lane street, 5,000 years old.

Cameron Hanes 24:57 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 24:57 Yeah, 5,000. A huge tree.

Joe Rogan 25:00 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 25:00 That's not what Google said it was.

Joe Rogan 25:02 Google said it was two to 3,000 years old?

Cameron Hanes 25:04 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 25:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:04 Okay, so the sign says 3,000. Well, back when they made that sign, what kind of fucking carbon dating did they have, you know?

Steven Rinella 25:10 Some dude looked-

Joe Rogan 25:11 Look at how old that sign is.

Steven Rinella 25:11 ... he goes, some dude said, "Man, that tree must be 5,000 years old. Put that on the sign."

Joe Rogan 25:15 Look at the f- image of it. That's what it looked like. See the image of it to the right, Jamie?

Steven Rinella 25:18 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:18 To the l- uh, no, slightly to the left of that. Yeah, that's it, that's it. That's exactly what it looked like.

Steven Rinella 25:24 Hm.

Joe Rogan 25:24 So that one's 1,000-year-old, North Downs in Surrey. So that's in England.

Cameron Hanes 25:28 Yeah, fuck that ugly tree.

Joe Rogan 25:30 That k- that tree looks dope.

Steven Rinella 25:31 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 25:32 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 25:32 It looks dope.

Cameron Hanes 25:33 That's not a, that's not the tree Steve was talking about. Those are-

Joe Rogan 25:35 I think they look cool as shit.

Steven Rinella 25:36 No, that tree looks old, you know?

Cameron Hanes 25:38 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 25:38 That tree looks like a gnarly old man.

Joe Rogan 25:40 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 25:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:40 Like some old dude, "I'll tell you what it was like when we rode horses everywhere."

Steven Rinella 25:46 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 25:46 Hey, so Steve, I was go- I was thinking, like, so what's the, what's the difference between the, a person who you said you wouldn't like to cut that tree down, or you wouldn't? And then-

Steven Rinella 25:57 Just, yeah, like, but like I said, not, not ... I- I- I don't say that to conde- you know, I mean, I don't say that to cast judgment on-

Cameron Hanes 26:04 Right.

Steven Rinella 26:05 ... you know, a logger that does. I'm just saying, like, I personally.

Cameron Hanes 26:07 No, I understand that, but then there's some people who take that to the ... I'm just trying to, I don't know, reason with myself, 'cause around here, we've had people chain themselves to trees.

Steven Rinella 26:17 Sure. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 26:17 You know what I mean? So, d- would you do that?

Steven Rinella 26:20 No.

Cameron Hanes 26:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:21 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 26:21 So, that's what I'm saying. It's like, I mean-

Steven Rinella 26:24 No, 'cause that, the passion's not there.

Cameron Hanes 26:26 Right.

Steven Rinella 26:26 There's a l- the, the passion's there, but it's not that deep.

Cameron Hanes 26:29 Right. I don't ... Yeah, it's just, it's weird thinking about ... I understand what you're saying, and I totally get that.

Steven Rinella 26:34 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 26:34 I- I would probably, I think ... I've never cut down a tree, I've never been a tree surgeon, but I would probably feel the same about maybe a 4 or 500-year-old tree.

Steven Rinella 26:41 Oh, I might be like, "You know, man, Cam, you cut it down." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:45 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 26:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:45 When I was in Northern California-

Steven Rinella 26:46 I don't want to have to deal with any repercussions that come out of this. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:48 Right. We were in the redwood forest, and there's a tree that you drive a car through.

Cameron Hanes 26:52 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 26:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:53 They've cut a hole in the tree, and I was like, "Why did they do that?" But it was like 1920 or something-

Steven Rinella 26:58 Yeah. No.

Joe Rogan 26:59 ... when they did it.

Cameron Hanes 26:59 Yeah, they didn't care about anything back then.

Joe Rogan 27:00 They didn't give a fuck.

Steven Rinella 27:01 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 27:02 No.

Joe Rogan 27:02 Yeah. But when you're around those trees, th- they're so big. It's, it's so crazy-

Steven Rinella 27:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:06 ... how wide they are. And when they're gone, that's it. You just chopped down something that took thousands of years to grow so you could make, what, a fucking table?

Steven Rinella 27:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:15 You know? There's a lot of trees that are like, they're 20 years old. Go kill those.

Steven Rinella 27:19 Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a tough one, man. It's a tough one looking at those trees. But it does seem like, uh, you know, some of those trees you look at, it's like you're looking at ... it almost seems like some approximation of God, you know? Look at some of those old trees, man. Just astounding.

Joe Rogan 27:34 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 27:35 Yeah. We ... That's, in Oregon, that was a big thing, because we had the spotted owls in late '80s, basically, and spotted owls lived in old growth. So, we had the, the, whatever, timber activists or whoever those people are-

Steven Rinella 27:50 Sure, yeah, spiking trees and-

Cameron Hanes 27:52 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 27:52 ... you know.

Cameron Hanes 27:52 And, or living in them. They'd like, "Well, we live here," or "We chain ourselves to them." But they were up there, and so the loggers would get there to cut, you know, do their cut, and there's people living in the trees, and-

Steven Rinella 28:01 Yeah, that one gal spent ... Her name was like, Butter-

Joe Rogan 28:04 Oh ... (laughs)

Steven Rinella 28:04 Joe's probably had her on the show. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 28:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:05 I would have her on this show. What was her, what was her name? It was like Butterfly or something, right?

Steven Rinella 28:09 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Cameron Hanes 28:10 But, I mean, I guess my point is, it's like, you got people, whatever their passions are, they will go to the ends, you know? Like-

Steven Rinella 28:15 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 28:15 ... we, we defend hunting til the end, right?

Steven Rinella 28:18 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 28:18 That's our passion, that's what we love. But yeah, it's like, all these different factions of people that ... Man, you'd have a hard time saying you're wrong and believing that, 'cause that's just what they believe. That's their passion.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 28:29 So it's like finding that middle ground, I guess.

Joe Rogan 28:30 You know, the one thing that I never really thought of until I started hunting was the spiritual aspect to hunting. That's ... It's in ... It's a part of it, that it's almost indisputable when you experience it, like when you first experience it. When you first start eating an animal that you've ... Like, the first time you ever took me hunting when we were in Montana.

Steven Rinella 28:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 28:55 And I remember when I was eating that mule deer and we were sitting over the fire, and I was like, "This is so different than any meal I've ever had in my life. It's so different. I feel so connected to this animal. I know how difficult it was to do this. I know how insane their life is, that this is this wild creature that is 100% gonna die soon, no matter what. If it's next year or the year after or the year after that, it doesn't have much time left. And if you can move in while, you know ... dip your toe into the wild and extract that thing out," to me, that was like, "Oh, this is the best way to eat meat ever. This is 20, 30 times better-"

Steven Rinella 29:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:38 "... than just getting a steak from a store." I remember when we were sitting around the fire, and you're like, "What are you thinking?" I'm like, "I'm doing this forever."

Cameron Hanes 29:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:45 Do you remember that?

Steven Rinella 29:45 Yeah. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 29:46 What, what year was that?

Joe Rogan 29:46 I don't know.

Steven Rinella 29:47 I don't remember that specific conversation.

Joe Rogan 29:48 That was-

Steven Rinella 29:48 That was a long time ago.

Joe Rogan 29:49 ... 12 years ago.

Steven Rinella 29:49 Oh, was it really? I was gonna say 10 years ago, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:51 12 years ago.

Cameron Hanes 29:51 So-

Joe Rogan 29:51 2012.

Cameron Hanes 29:52 Okay, and then you bow hunted in 2014?

Joe Rogan 29:54 Yes.

Cameron Hanes 29:55 Okay. So you, so did you kill, is-

Joe Rogan 29:56 I have two people in this room that introduced me to hunting, and that's our Montana mule deer right there.

Cameron Hanes 30:02 Yeah, that's him.

Steven Rinella 30:02 That's him.

Joe Rogan 30:03 That's him. That's the one we shot.

Steven Rinella 30:03 Someone lost the nose bones.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Oh, the ones out there?

Cameron Hanes 30:07 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 30:07 Well, he's missing his too.

Joe Rogan 30:08 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 30:09 You need to shake Jamie down. He might have a pocket full of those nose bones. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 30:12 I think they, I think they-

Joe Rogan 30:13 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 30:13 ... they boil it out too long. I think-

Joe Rogan 30:15 Is that what it is?

Cameron Hanes 30:16 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 30:16 Yeah, yeah.

Cameron Hanes 30:16 I always glue, I always glue them back in. But anyways, sorry.

Joe Rogan 30:19 That guy is very special to me.

Steven Rinella 30:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:21 That guy's very special to me.

Cameron Hanes 30:22 First kill.

Joe Rogan 30:22 And I remember when we were eating him over the fire-... I was re-sorting my schedule. I was like, "Okay, how many times a year can I hunt now?"

Cameron Hanes 30:31 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 30:31 Okay, how much, how long is it gonna take to eat a, a deer-

Cameron Hanes 30:33 After the first, first time.

Joe Rogan 30:34 Uh-huh, right away.

Cameron Hanes 30:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:35 Eating it over the fire, like right away.

Cameron Hanes 30:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:38 I was like, "Oh, I'm doing this forever. This is what I do now."

Cameron Hanes 30:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:41 Like, right away. I was like, "Okay, now I gotta really research, like, calibers and rifles and how to do this-"

Cameron Hanes 30:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:47 "... and how to do that. I gotta up my cardio, I gotta start hiking hills." I started thinking all these things, like immediately.

Steven Rinella 30:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:52 And I started planning out, "Okay, every f- I g- gotta hunt every four months. Like, what can you hunt? I gotta get pigs 'cause then you can hunt them all year round." Immediately, my brain starts spinning, like, "Okay, this is what I do now."

Cameron Hanes 31:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:02 I was like, "Okay, I found it."

Steven Rinella 31:04 I've taken quite a number of people on their first hunting trips. I've never had, I mean, probably dozens, maybe dozens? Either way, I've never had any of them regret it. Like, no one's ever said, "I wish I hadn't done that." But I would say the majority, definitely a, a good strong majority, did not pursue it. Didn't regret it, glad they did it, but didn't make it part of life.

Joe Rogan 31:30 Well, that's difficult.

Steven Rinella 31:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:32 It's difficult, you know? And that's the thing, I think that is the impediment for a lot of people. It's like, time-consuming, it, if you don't have someone like you or someone like you to teach them, like, I have friends, they're like, "Hey, I want you to take me hunting." I'm like, "Oh, Christ."

Steven Rinella 31:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:47 "I don't have the time. I wanna go bow hunting." I'm like, "Do you know what you're saying?"

Cameron Hanes 31:50 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 31:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:50 "Do you know what you're saying?"

Steven Rinella 31:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:52 Like, "I just want you to come with me one day and watch what I do fucking every day."

Steven Rinella 31:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:57 "Where I'm out in the yard like a maniac."

Steven Rinella 31:57 I'm going through that with my kid right now. I'm going through that with my kid where my older kid's very interested in bow hunting, but it, it's just, I'm like, "Man, you have to appreciate the level of discipline, dude. That you gotta, to shoot, right? Like, I'm perpetually rusty. Like, you can't be like me."

Joe Rogan 32:14 Right.

Steven Rinella 32:14 And, and I actually pulled the plug on him this year where I, I said, "If you shoot every day," like, he'd been shooting throughout the summer. I said, "If you shoot every day prior to this week, we're gonna go bow hunting." I said, "I want you to shoot every day prior to the week." And he didn't do it, and I said, "We're not going." And I'll see if next year that impacts him.

Joe Rogan 32:33 Mm.

Steven Rinella 32:33 But it's, like, the discipline.

Cameron Hanes 32:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 32:35 You know?

Joe Rogan 32:35 It's unfortunate, but I think, you know, there's no way to teach someone that. There's no way to really, like, get it into their head how hard it is unless they're in the field and they're drawing on an animal and then they realize, like, unless... There's some ways to mitigate that, like, you've had Joel Turner on, which I, I, you have. You've had him on, right?

Steven Rinella 32:55 No, uh-uh.

Joe Rogan 32:55 You never had Joel Turner on?

Steven Rinella 32:56 No.

Joe Rogan 32:56 The Shot IQ guy?

Steven Rinella 32:57 No, I'd like to but never did, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:58 Oh, I gotta connect you. Do, do you-

Steven Rinella 33:00 No.

Joe Rogan 33:00 ... have his number? Do you...

Steven Rinella 33:01 No, but I'm familiar with that. I've, he's been recommended by many people and guys I work with are familiar, but I haven't had him on.

Joe Rogan 33:07 He's absolutely got-

Steven Rinella 33:09 And you've recommended him to me.

Joe Rogan 33:10 Yes.

Steven Rinella 33:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:11 He's got a, a r- there's a thing that happens when you're in a high-pressure situation that I recognize from martial arts and from a lot of other things, where you do not have full control of your faculties.

Steven Rinella 33:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:23 And your body is operating on anxiety and, and adrenaline. And when it's completely unique, like a bow hunting thing, where you have hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of preparation and thinking about it for seconds of action, and it boils down to this one movement where you're like, "Yikes." If you don't have a strategy for managing your mental state while that's happening-

Steven Rinella 33:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:48 ... the odds of you flinching or moving or doing something stupid are really, really, really high. And Joel Turner went through that for, like, fucking 15 years. He, like, couldn't kill an elk-

Steven Rinella 34:00 Struggled with it himself.

Joe Rogan 34:01 He was always choking.

Steven Rinella 34:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:02 And then when he became a SWAT instructor, when he was, you know, he's on a SWAT team, so he, he's liter- like, he was telling me this one story where he had to shoot this guy that was holding a young girl hostage. And, like, I think it was with a weapon, I forget what, ma- a knife or something. And so he has a headshot while this guy is holding onto a girl. And he had to figure out, like, what are the, uh, what is the mental process that allows people to flinch and panic during these moments? And he realized it's the difference between open loop systems and closed loop systems. And the open loop system is something like swinging a baseball bat. Like, once you start swinging, you're just swinging.

Steven Rinella 34:46 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:46 You're just, "Wah!" You know, you're swinging. And unfortunately, with a lot of people, that is the initial reaction. They just go. Like-

Steven Rinella 34:54 Yeah, I get, like, the final thought you have is that you're gonna swing the bat.

Joe Rogan 34:58 Yeah, go! Yeah.

Steven Rinella 34:59 I, I don't know if a professional, I don't know if a, like, friend of mine is a, you know, real home run hitter. I don't know if he would agree, but in my mind, yeah, it's like, you've decided to swing it and everything else is just nothing. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:09 Well, you're not gonna stop it in the middle of the swing.

Steven Rinella 35:11 Yeah, and you're not, you're not thinking about, "Oh, I'm gonna go a little higher, little lower."

Joe Rogan 35:14 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 35:14 Right?

Joe Rogan 35:14 It's like punching.

Steven Rinella 35:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:16 Punching, when you're, when you're fighting, punching comes, it's an automatic movement. Like, you slide back and you don't even realize what's happening, you're already punching.

Steven Rinella 35:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:25 And you're not gonna stop that punch once you've launched-

Steven Rinella 35:28 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:29 ... your shoulder forward and when you are using his system, he has you talking to yourself through every step of it. So you're always conscious.

Steven Rinella 35:40 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:40 So it's always a closed loop system. You're c- in complete control. At any step you could stop. And he's like, "Sometimes the best shot is the shot you don't take." When you realize you're shaking, you're holding too long, let down. That's the best decision you could ever make. If you get your mind to, like, "Just shoot now! Just go now!" And you're, "Urrr, now!"

Steven Rinella 36:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:01 We've all seen people-

Cameron Hanes 36:02 Oh, my-

Joe Rogan 36:02 There's so many videos online.

Steven Rinella 36:03 Dude, I've been there, my, ugh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:05 Yeah, everybody has.

Steven Rinella 36:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:06 But there's a way-

Cameron Hanes 36:07 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 36:07 ... to mitigate that with this. So it's not just the practice. The practice is great. You have to practice. I practice constantly. But you also should have a pre-shot routine. And I actually used Cam's pre-shot routine when I was in Utah. 'Cause I remember Cam had this thing where he's saying, "Keep the pin on them, keep the pin on them." And you say that-

Steven Rinella 36:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:27 ... while you're shooting.

Cameron Hanes 36:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:28 "Keep the pin on them, keep the pin on them."

Cameron Hanes 36:30 I just know if I keep the pin there, it's gonna-

Joe Rogan 36:32 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 36:32 ... the arrow's gonna hit good.

Joe Rogan 36:33 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 36:33 What happens is people drop their bow arm a lot.

Joe Rogan 36:36 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 36:36 I mean, that's what happens a lot is that drop that bow arm, they hit too low.

Joe Rogan 36:40 Right.

Cameron Hanes 36:40 So if you keep that pin there-

Joe Rogan 36:41 ... bow's gonna do its job.

Steven Rinella 36:42 Oh, you're saying be con-

Joe Rogan 36:44 'Cause he says it to himself.

Steven Rinella 36:44 You're telling yourself, be conscious of keeping the pin on it through the shot.

Joe Rogan 36:47 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 36:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:48 Not moving, 'cause the, the moving thing is like, "I hope I hit it."

Steven Rinella 36:50 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 36:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 36:51 "I hope I hit it. Ah!" And then things go left, right, for fucking three, four feet, and you're like, "How?"

Cameron Hanes 36:56 You know where people realize that they have a problem, is after they make a shitty shot.

Joe Rogan 37:01 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 37:01 And they're just like, "Why didn't I practice more? Why didn't I-

Joe Rogan 37:05 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 37:05 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 37:06 ... listen to Joel or Joe or whoever?"

Steven Rinella 37:08 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 37:09 Because then that's, then it's real, because we have a, a tendency of making things work out in our head the way we want them to, and then when it doesn't work out like that-

Joe Rogan 37:19 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 37:19 ... because we haven't put in the time, or we don't have a process down, and maybe you hit the animal bad, maybe you miss, maybe-

Joe Rogan 37:24 (coughs)

Cameron Hanes 37:24 ... you know, it just shit the bed. And then you're just like, "God, what is my- what am I doing?"

Joe Rogan 37:30 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 37:30 But up until then you're like, you're the baddest person ever.

Steven Rinella 37:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:33 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 37:33 You know what I mean? Like, um, yeah-

Steven Rinella 37:35 Yeah, yeah.

Cameron Hanes 37:35 ... of course I'm gonna make a great shot.

Joe Rogan 37:36 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 37:36 That's the interesting thing between in, in talking to people that blow a shot with a rifle and talking to people that blow a shot with a bow. People who blow a shot with a rifle, and they'll assure you they did everything right.

Cameron Hanes 37:48 Guns on, did everything. Yeah.

Steven Rinella 37:49 No one blows a shot with a bow and comes away saying, "I don't know what happened. I did everything right."

Joe Rogan 37:54 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 37:54 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 37:54 'Cause you fall into, like, you fall in, like you're saying, you fall into this, like, despair and-

Joe Rogan 37:59 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 37:59 ... guilt, and you're trying to review in your head. I've li- I- I've accidentally landed on a thing that's not fail-safe, but somehow when you say, like, keep the pin on him, I've landed on this thing, like, like, remember your elbow, remember your elbow.

Joe Rogan 38:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 38:12 And if I remember to, like, 'cause when I'm shooting just practicing, I'm always, there's always this thing where it's like, like, sort of consciously being aware of ha- having my elbow raised.

Joe Rogan 38:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 38:21 And that makes everything fall into line. And so if I'm, if I know I'm gonna get a shot, and I can think, like, if you'll do the part-

Joe Rogan 38:27 The elbow. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 38:28 If you do the part and then that elbow goes up, and then everything else sort of, like, takes care of itself-

Joe Rogan 38:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 38:33 ... you know? And then I'll, if I take a shot, I might review in my mind, like, "I never did that thing."

Joe Rogan 38:38 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 38:38 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 38:38 I never, I never did the elbow deal-

Joe Rogan 38:40 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 38:40 ... you know, which drives all the other actions. It's, it's, it's imperfect, but it's similar to what you're talking about.

Joe Rogan 38:45 It is something about staying in a conscious state and being able to maintain your composure during that high-pressure situation, maintaining a conscious state where you're talking yourself through it and not just a, a, just b- being a reptile.

Steven Rinella 39:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:01 Just, "Ah!" You know, just going-

Cameron Hanes 39:02 People black out, kind of.

Joe Rogan 39:03 They black out. They really do.

Cameron Hanes 39:04 They don't know what to tell their families.

Steven Rinella 39:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:05 They're like, "I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened." Yeah.

Steven Rinella 39:07 I think you use it up, maybe. L- uh, I felt that, if anything, um, just a gradual dissipation with age and experience, perhaps.

Joe Rogan 39:17 Experience, for sure.

Steven Rinella 39:17 I'd be curious if some, if some dude started, like, if some dude at 60 years old, you know, some dude at 60 years old started bowhunting, are they gonna wig out like a 20-year-old on their first shot?

Joe Rogan 39:32 Depends on who they are.

Steven Rinella 39:33 Or is there something that's, like, their brain's already chilled out?

Joe Rogan 39:37 I think there's a part of your brain that, like, you know, there's a, there's a part of your brain that Andrew Huberman talks about. I forget what the exact, uh-

Cameron Hanes 39:44 That grows.

Joe Rogan 39:45 ... section is. Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 39:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:45 That i- when you force yourself to do things you don't want to do-

Steven Rinella 39:50 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:50 ... when you force yourself to get up in the morning and run in the cold and get in the cold plunge-

Steven Rinella 39:54 (coughs)

Joe Rogan 39:54 ... and all these diff- it literally grows larger. This part of your brain that is able to do things that are uncomfortable-

Steven Rinella 39:59 Got it.

Joe Rogan 39:59 ... that you don't want to do actually grows larger. And it seems to be that that's a muscle just like every other muscle, not a muscle, but a thing that is more robust with use. And if you're a 60-year-old guy that's just been working in an office and listening to the boss and driving home and, you know, there's, there's no stress, no, no, like, not stress, but no high-pressure, decision-making, in-the-moment choices that you have come accustomed to managing and, and, and dealing with and negotiating. If you're, if you're a person, if you're a person that's, like, fucking gone to war, you know, maybe you've had a, like, some crazy high-pressure job and you're 60, you probably got fucking ice water running through your veins-

Steven Rinella 40:43 Yeah, yeah.

Cameron Hanes 40:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:43 ... by the time you're 60 years old. You're like, you've seen it all. So it depends on the human.

Steven Rinella 40:47 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 40:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:48 But for most people, that, like, uh, you know, like, there's a guy like Derek Wolf. You met Derek Wolf-

Steven Rinella 40:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:54 ... the Other Money podcast. I mean, you're talking about a guy that, like, has fucking played professional football at the highest level, and even he says it's the most exciting shit that he's ever done. Like, I've told Cam, like, so many times, "Dude, I've done a lot of shit. I've, I've fought, I do stand-up comedy, I do all, so many live things that are, like, high pressure." Nothing is like elk hunting.

Cameron Hanes 41:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:14 There's nothing like that moment-

Steven Rinella 41:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:16 ... when you're drawing and that thing is, like-

Steven Rinella 41:19 Mm.

Joe Rogan 41:19 ... in the field, and it's, it drops its head down at 50 yards and starts eating, and you draw back, and you got the, and you're like, "Is this happening? Is this really going on right now?"

Steven Rinella 41:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:28 You're like, "Ah!"

Cameron Hanes 41:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:28 It's so pressure-filled. It's, it's so, it's such a novel and unique moment that unless you have a bunch of those moments, like, I'm at the point now, you know, uh, 10 years into bowhunting, where when I draw on an animal, I can keep my shit together.

Steven Rinella 41:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:46 And now, to me, it's just like making sure I'm steady and the shot's good. There's nothing weird going on. There's no weird wind or ... And I just go through my process, and I'm very confident now, but it's numbers. It's numbers. Like if you ... I always tell people, like, the more things that you can shoot, the better. And then a- you could shoot pigs, you shoot things that people have to kill, you know, if you can go to Lanai where you can get, like, multiple shot opportunities on axis deer, that kind of situation, that's ... For me, the difference between, like, how I feel in September during elk season and, like, some years where I feel great and super confident, it's always that I went on a couple other hunts.

Steven Rinella 42:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:27 It's always. Like, so you get that exper- this is how I used to feel fighting, too. Like, if I got, like, one, a couple times I got injured, and I couldn't fight for, like, six months, and then I'd fight, but it was almost like it was, like, brand new again. Like, when I'd be in there, like, "Whoa, this is crazy." 'Cause the first time you see people fight, they're in a panic.... it's like you can't believe-

Cameron Hanes 42:46 (exhales)

Joe Rogan 42:46 ... it's actually happening.

Cameron Hanes 42:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:48 They're like, "Are you ready?" And you're like, "Yes!"

Cameron Hanes 42:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:50 You know, and you're like, (laughs) .

Cameron Hanes 42:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:52 And they get out there and if you're an experienced person, it's one of the reasons why, like, champions have such a massive advantage. They have this, such a massive psychological advantage, because they're the champion. And they've been... Like, you would see guys when they would fight Mike Tyson, they had already lost by the time they got in there.

Cameron Hanes 43:08 (exhales)

Joe Rogan 43:08 They're looking at him like, "Oh my God, what is happening?" 'Cause it's real, like their whole world was, like, that big. And they were just in full, like, panic, and they just couldn't-

Cameron Hanes 43:17 Well-

Joe Rogan 43:17 ... fight.

Cameron Hanes 43:17 ... you know, that's, that's kind of similar to how people feel bow hunting elk for the first time.

Joe Rogan 43:22 100%.

Cameron Hanes 43:22 I mean, that bull's coming in-

Joe Rogan 43:24 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 43:24 ... they're s- they, they lost.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Yeah. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 43:26 When that bull's coming in-

Steven Rinella 43:27 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 43:27 ... and it's coming to 20 yards, it's just like there's, there's a chance.

Joe Rogan 43:32 (exhales)

Cameron Hanes 43:32 But I remember the first time we had a, your first bow hunt, we were in Colorado. The two bulls were coming in on this little tight creek we were in, this little draw, coming in at the same time, and they were just bugling and it was insane. Not even big bulls, but just coming in and closing down on us. And do you remember that moment?

Joe Rogan 43:49 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 43:49 You were just like, it was unbelievable.

Joe Rogan 43:52 It's so nuts.

Cameron Hanes 43:52 Even though all the shit that you've done-

Joe Rogan 43:54 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 43:54 ... this high level crazy stuff, that, there was nothing that compared to that.

Joe Rogan 43:58 The screaming.

Steven Rinella 43:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:00 Brrr!

Steven Rinella 44:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:01 When you're there, and they're like 30 yards, doing that, like y- the sound is so nuts. Like if you're not a person who's ever been around elk calling, when they do it, when they bugle, it sounds like Lord of the Rings, man.

Cameron Hanes 44:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:15 It's such a crazy-

Cameron Hanes 44:15 Like it can get on your nerves.

Joe Rogan 44:16 ... sound.

Cameron Hanes 44:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:18 It's so crazy.

Cameron Hanes 44:18 Can be intimidating-

Joe Rogan 44:19 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 44:19 ... if you're not ready for it.

Steven Rinella 44:21 Uh, there's a thing Derek Wolf told me, when you're talking about, uh, the stress and competitive stress. He told me a thing that had never occurred to me before, talked about getting in the ring to fight Mike Tyson or whatever, is in h- in his thing, y- you're also, there's a thing where you can get... You're starstruck.

Joe Rogan 44:39 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 44:39 Like picture you're an incoming player, okay? And you're real young, and all of a sudden you're like, "Hold on, I'm supposed to go tackle Tom Brady." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:46 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 44:46 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 44:47 Who I've been watching-

Joe Rogan 44:49 Right.

Steven Rinella 44:49 I've been watching f- th- my, my, through my whole like coming up through high school-

Joe Rogan 44:54 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 44:54 ... coming through college, and all of a sudden like, "Wow, that's him." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:58 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 44:58 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 44:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:59 There's the GOAT.

Steven Rinella 45:00 Right, you gotta sort of put that out of your head, right?

Joe Rogan 45:02 Right.

Steven Rinella 45:02 You're like, you don't-

Joe Rogan 45:02 Yes.

Steven Rinella 45:02 ... be like, "Hang tight, let me get his interview."

Cameron Hanes 45:05 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 45:05 "Then I'll come, let me get his autograph, then I'll come back and then I'll tackle him." (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 45:09 Yeah, like, uh, yeah, I mean the GOAT. You've heard how, you know, he's the best to ever do it.

Steven Rinella 45:13 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 45:13 And then all of a sudden, it's like almost like, you know, "I'm a big fan."

Steven Rinella 45:16 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 45:16 "Nice to meet you. Sorry for having to do this."

Joe Rogan 45:18 But isn't that also the case with bow hunters, where like you've been hunting your whole life hoping to see a two, uh, 200-inch buck?

Steven Rinella 45:25 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 45:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 45:25 And then one day you're in the mountains and this mule deer steps out. You're like, "Oh!"

Steven Rinella 45:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:30 Like, "This is it!" As you're imagining taking the photo, smiling on Instagram. You imagine, you see this wide mule deer buck, like, "This is crazy. This is a real one. I can make this happen." You're like, "Er, er, er, er, er, er, er, er."

Cameron Hanes 45:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:44 Everything is just full panic. I w-

Steven Rinella 45:46 Cla- Clay Newcomb just did a Bear Grease episode about a guy, a, a poacher, and he interviews the guy at length, and this, this guy played softball on a army base. They had like a athletic complex. And a couple times he sees this giant buck, and the people were aware of this giant buck, and he was trying to figure out if it was possible to kill it, as he calls it, kill it right or kill it legal. And one day he just happens to have his bow in his car and sees it not anywhere he's supposed to hunt. And the way he describes it, he describes it like, he was out of his ma, out of his body, and he shoots it. And the minute it falls over, he thinks, "You'll never get away with this."

Joe Rogan 46:28 Oh God.

Steven Rinella 46:29 But he lo- not only like-

Joe Rogan 46:30 Where was he?

Steven Rinella 46:30 ... not only lost... I can't... I think he was in Missouri. Yeah, Missouri.

Joe Rogan 46:33 So was he in the wrong unit, or was he on private land?

Steven Rinella 46:35 No, he was on a milit- he was on a military base where you're not even s- you can't hunt.

Joe Rogan 46:39 Oh, wow.

Steven Rinella 46:40 And not only like losing, not only losing your mind as you're drawing back, he lost his mind in the whole thing, getting his bow out of his thing.

Joe Rogan 46:51 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 46:52 And kills the buck.

Cameron Hanes 46:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Rinella 46:54 And then he, the minute he kills it, it occurs- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:56 You're fucked.

Steven Rinella 46:57 ... occurs to him what he's done. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 46:59 Well, I'm-

Joe Rogan 46:59 So what did he do?

Steven Rinella 47:00 It's a whole episo- it's two episodes about just, i- i- horrible what happened.

Joe Rogan 47:04 Wow.

Steven Rinella 47:04 I mean, I, I... You gotta walk a real fine line. I mean, he did like, uh, as he admits, you know? I mean he did, he did a criminal act and it's not like sympathetic of the criminal act, but it's a, uh, winds up being a story of the unraveling of someone's life about just a mistake. But, but being that, that a- that sort of lust for that animal.

Joe Rogan 47:25 Right.

Cameron Hanes 47:26 I guess we should be thankful that Derek Wolf never saw Tom Brady at a pizza event.

Steven Rinella 47:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:30 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 47:31 You know what I mean? You could just freaking light him up, sack him.

Steven Rinella 47:35 Yeah, right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:36 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 47:36 It's like, "I got him. I got him."

Cameron Hanes 47:37 Can you imagine that? He's just lying-

Joe Rogan 47:38 What are you doing?

Cameron Hanes 47:39 ... in front of you at Burger King. He just fucking go for it.

Steven Rinella 47:42 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 47:42 I lost my mind.

Steven Rinella 47:43 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 47:44 It was Tom Brady.

Joe Rogan 47:45 I just fucking... I don't know, I've just been programmed to tackle him.

Steven Rinella 47:50 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 47:50 Yeah. No, but that, I, I think I was thinking back to on, you said when you're not ready for it. My, the, my first two year, my first year of bow hunting and my first year of rifle hunting, I was 15 when I was rifle hunting, we did this drive. We used to do drives, right? You know.

Steven Rinella 48:03 Oh, hell yeah, man.

Cameron Hanes 48:04 Not really hitting pans.

Steven Rinella 48:05 I talked drives with y'all man. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 48:06 Yeah, not really hitting pans but not far from it. So you send the guys and then put the, whoever the shooter is on the stand. And you go-

Steven Rinella 48:13 Hold on. Can I ask you real quick? Did you call them?

Cameron Hanes 48:14 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 48:14 What were the names you used? We have, we debate this all the time.

Cameron Hanes 48:17 What?

Steven Rinella 48:18 Who was... Okay, uh, uh, what were the terms you used? Pushers, sitters?

Cameron Hanes 48:23 Yeah, that was it.

Steven Rinella 48:24 Okay.

Cameron Hanes 48:24 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 48:24 Used pushers and sitters.

Cameron Hanes 48:25 Yeah, or-

Steven Rinella 48:25 It's, it's very regional. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 48:26 Or on the stand, like it-

Steven Rinella 48:28 Oh, on the stand.

Cameron Hanes 48:28 Yeah, you're, you're on the stand and then we're pushing to you.

Steven Rinella 48:31 Okay, yeah.

Cameron Hanes 48:32 But, so I was there. Had this, um, let's see, .300 Savage, just old gun, about 15 years old, doing the push. "Okay, go here." I didn't even know if I was in the right spot. I'm just like, "God, I'm by myself."

Steven Rinella 48:45 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 48:45 Just don't know anything. And then all of a sudden I look up and here's this buck, poo-... giant mule deer. I, I don't even know how big it was, but it looked g- and I was just like, "Pff!"

Joe Rogan 48:55 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 48:56 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 48:57 Shocked, no clue. I don't... I never, probably never saw it in the scope. It was like, probably, it seems like from me to you. And I was just like, had no idea what happened.

Joe Rogan 49:07 Uh-

Cameron Hanes 49:07 Was I prepared to kill that buck? Hell, no. So I killed a spike buck, like, the next day, right? And that's how it works. You're not ready for a giant.

Steven Rinella 49:16 Right.

Cameron Hanes 49:17 Then, same thing with bow hunting. First day bow hunting, this giant bull comes out, seven-by-six Roosevelt. First day, I, I'm like sit- I'm kneeling in this logging road. Felt like my arms were asleep, they're tingling. I'm like, I don't even know if I could draw this bow back. He's broadside, head to the right, butt to the left. And I shoot at, it was like right at 40 yards, and I miss behind his butt.

Steven Rinella 49:41 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 49:41 So I'm off, like, six feet at 40 yards.

Steven Rinella 49:45 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 49:45 And then end up killing a spike bull.

Steven Rinella 49:47 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 49:48 So it's just, it's... You're just not ready for those, the giant, you know?

Steven Rinella 49:52 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 49:52 Where-

Joe Rogan 49:52 But that's where I think Joel Turner comes into play, because-

Cameron Hanes 49:55 Well, I don't know if he coulda helped me. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:56 I don't know if he coulda helped. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 49:58 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 49:58 He, at, at that time...

Steven Rinella 50:00 He'd have had to been like, "Gimme that bow." (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 50:02 It, it, yeah. It probably wouldn't... He, you probably weren't totally ready for that at that moment. But if you have a certain level of proficiency, and a certain amount of experience in, in mitigating high pressure situations-

Steven Rinella 50:14 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 50:14 ... then I think you could get through it.

Joe Rogan 50:15 Right. 'Cause I s- I've been teaching a lot of people to shoot a bow for the first time on the Lift, Run, Shoot show that I do. Joel Turner isn't gonna tell them anything.

Steven Rinella 50:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:25 I mean, it's like there's so many basics-

Steven Rinella 50:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:27 ... you have to get before that.

Steven Rinella 50:28 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:29 But as you said, once you get that routine down and you're kinda more seasoned, then I think that can. That closed loop, open loop, then that would make more sense. Well, it was so attractive to me when I first started shooting a bow. I was like, "God, there are so many... You'd get lost in this."

Steven Rinella 50:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 50:45 Like, there's so much going on just in your yard, when just shooting at a target. There's so much mental and physical, and there's so many things that have to align. Like, I have a checklist that I have on my phone, that before I go hunting, like when I'm on the plane flying to wherever I'm going, I look at my notes on my phone and I go over my checklist. And I bounce it around in my head.

Steven Rinella 51:10 It's your process stuff.

Joe Rogan 51:10 Yeah, I have a, a shot process.

Steven Rinella 51:11 Not like boots, socks, all that. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 51:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:13 No, no, no, no, no. I got all that. That, that I'm terrible with too. I just stuff everything in there. I'm like, "I think I got it all in there." Um, I really need to organize it. Like, if I was gonna go on like one of those-

Cameron Hanes 51:23 Then you take way more than you need.

Joe Rogan 51:24 100%. If I was gonna go on like one of those, uh, backpacking mountain hunts where you're carrying your whole camp on your back-

Steven Rinella 51:29 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:29 ... and you're walking in for fucking 20 miles, I'd be the guy that has like the 80-pound pack.

Steven Rinella 51:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:34 Because I'm throwing extra batteries and extra broad heads in case that happens, and-

Steven Rinella 51:38 Hiding stuff in the bushes on your way up. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:40 Two kni- two knives just in case. You know, meanwhile like Adam Greentree has been doing it forever. He- that motherfucker saws his toothbrushes in half-

Steven Rinella 51:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:47 ... to cut weight.

Steven Rinella 51:48 You would-

Joe Rogan 51:48 He's got it down to a science.

Cameron Hanes 51:49 You would do that one time.

Joe Rogan 51:50 One time.

Steven Rinella 51:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:51 Yeah, exactly, bro.

Cameron Hanes 51:52 That's how you learn that. E- everybody's learned, learned that.

Joe Rogan 51:55 So my process for packing is just fucking shove it all in there, and mostly likely I. I always have two range finders and two binos in case I br- drop something, and you know. Remember that time we were hunting in Canada and I broke my rest?

Steven Rinella 52:08 I do.

Joe Rogan 52:08 My rest snapped.

Steven Rinella 52:09 I do.

Joe Rogan 52:09 But I had a whisker biscuit. I was ready. I was like, "A-ha!"

Cameron Hanes 52:13 He was-

Steven Rinella 52:13 Oh, yeah, that's good.

Cameron Hanes 52:14 He was being obsessive out there with his rest, just like wrenching on it for hours and changing and doing all this, and then s- end up stripping something out.

Joe Rogan 52:21 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 52:21 'Cause he's, like, got too crazy on the rest.

Joe Rogan 52:23 Well, it was fucking up on me.

Cameron Hanes 52:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:25 It was fucking up.

Cameron Hanes 52:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:26 The rest wasn't dropping all the way.

Steven Rinella 52:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:28 And it... So like, my arrow was catching it. Like, the fletchings were catching. I'm like, "What the fuck is going on?"

Steven Rinella 52:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:34 And then I was like, "Oh, look at my rest. It's like slightly up above the riser." Like, "Goddamn it," so I'm fucking getting in there.

Steven Rinella 52:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:41 And then doing. Oh, no. (laughs)

Steven Rinella 52:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:44 Oh, no. But whisker biscuits, man. I know they take a couple of seconds away from your feet per second, but boy are those fucking easy to tune.

Steven Rinella 52:52 Oh, yeah. It's a lot less, uh, a lot less little stuff to go wrong, for sure.

Joe Rogan 52:56 How the hell is it that fucking high-level hunters still use whisker biscuits just because they don't wanna fuck around with anything?

Cameron Hanes 53:01 It's... Like, for that hunt it's perfect. You're gonna be shooting at 10 or 20 yards.

Joe Rogan 53:05 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 53:05 You know, or a, or a white-tail hunter, they're shooting at 20 yards.

Joe Rogan 53:09 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 53:09 So if you're gonna be shooting long distance, a fletch going through with all that contact through the, through the whisker basically, that's gonna impact long distance.

Joe Rogan 53:17 Well, apparently really impacts it when you have helical.

Cameron Hanes 53:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:22 Right? So if you have straight w- so helical, for people that are listening, there's a, an angle that the fletchings are placed in that accentuates this, the spinning of the arrow, which makes it more accurate and, you know. That's what you want, right? So some people don't use that. They just have straight up and down fletchings, which is still good. You know, you could still shoot very accurately with straight up and down fletchings, but most like really good archers prefer a helical. Like you have a helical.

Cameron Hanes 53:50 Yeah, give a little direction to that energy so the, so the arrow won't plane.

Joe Rogan 53:54 Right.

Steven Rinella 53:54 But that whisker biscuit accelerates that spin, makes it immediate though, right? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:57 Well, and it fucks up the fletchings 'cause it's a, it's twisting as it's going through all that, those, those hairs.

Steven Rinella 54:04 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:04 Whereas if you have a straight, you know, straight fletching, it's just gonna pass through. It only takes a few feet... Tim Burnett still hunts with a whisker biscuit.

Steven Rinella 54:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:12 I was watching one of his YouTube videos. I mean, that guy's fucking killed everything. He's been around forever. You know Solarhunter, you know, um, Remy's buddy?

Steven Rinella 54:18 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:18 And, you know, he's a really good hunter and he uses a whisker biscuit. And I was like, "This is crazy." I mean, maybe he's only using it on this one video that I saw.

Steven Rinella 54:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:25 But I was like, there's a lot of people that just go, "I wanna cut..." Just like a lot of people don't fuck with mechanicals. Like, "There's too many things that can go wrong. I'm not gonna fuck around with it."

Steven Rinella 54:32 The last thing I did with mine is I put it on my fish bow, but it won't float a fiberglass arrow, I realized.

Joe Rogan 54:38 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 54:38 Oh.

Joe Rogan 54:38 Too heavy.

Steven Rinella 54:39 You know what I'm saying?

Joe Rogan 54:40 Oh. Right.

Steven Rinella 54:40 I was like, man this is gonna be genius for fish hunting.

Joe Rogan 54:43 Right.

Steven Rinella 54:43 But it just, the arrow just goes doof.

Joe Rogan 54:45 Right through it. (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 54:45 Right through, yeah.

Steven Rinella 54:46 Don't need the hairs, yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:47 That looks like a lot of fun, like bow hunting for fish.

Steven Rinella 54:49 Oh, I love it man. The problem...

Joe Rogan 54:50 That looks like a lot of fun.

Steven Rinella 54:51 Well, yeah. The problem is...... uh, you, you just get limited to a fish that are ... Y- you get limited, in the US, you get limited to a lot of fish species that are not as desirable-

Joe Rogan 55:04 Right.

Steven Rinella 55:04 ... to carp.

Joe Rogan 55:04 Like your gar and carp and stuff like that.

Steven Rinella 55:07 Yeah. Down in South America, you're hunting, like, the best of the, the best of the best fish.

Joe Rogan 55:11 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 55:11 For the bass?

Steven Rinella 55:13 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 55:13 Oh.

Steven Rinella 55:14 I mean, you're hunting, like, the most coveted food fish.

Joe Rogan 55:16 Mm.

Steven Rinella 55:17 Which is fun.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 55:18 'Cause, I mean, how many, you know, how many carp do you want?

Joe Rogan 55:20 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 55:20 We used to do it when we were kids, man. We'd shoot all kind of carp, but I- I just, you know ...

Joe Rogan 55:25 Isn't it wild that carp are, like, prized in Europe?

Steven Rinella 55:28 I know. It doesn't make any sense.

Joe Rogan 55:29 They, like, they go out of their way.

Steven Rinella 55:30 I shouldn't say it doesn't make any sense that they didn't, but I don't know where we went. I don't know how we went so wrong.

Joe Rogan 55:36 Yeah. That's weird, right?

Steven Rinella 55:36 They put them all over, thinking everybody's going to eat them all the time (laughs) .

Cameron Hanes 55:39 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 55:39 It just, like, did not take off.

Joe Rogan 55:41 Well, they ruin lakes.

Steven Rinella 55:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:42 The ... Where I live, on Lake Austin, um, there's a buddy of mine who's one of my neighbors who's a, a fishermen. And, uh, he said, "Man, you should've been here before they brought carp."

Steven Rinella 55:51 Oh.

Joe Rogan 55:52 He goes, "There was all sorts of vegetation in here-"

Steven Rinella 55:54 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:54 "... and the bass were everywhere." But now, he goes, "If you can get a camera and look at the bottom of this lake, it looks like the bottom of a swimming pool." There's fucking nothing there.

Steven Rinella 56:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:01 Just the carp being everything.

Steven Rinella 56:01 No, it's terrible, man. But the fact that it was intentional ...

Joe Rogan 56:04 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 56:04 There's so many nonnative, there's so many invasive species that were unintentional. But the fact that for the, for the most part, the common carp was ... they were doing everybody a favor.

Joe Rogan 56:15 I think they thought they were doing a favor for rich people on Lake Austin, 'cause I think they wanted people to have less vegetation so they could take their boats out.

Steven Rinella 56:22 Got it.

Cameron Hanes 56:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:23 That's what I think.

Steven Rinella 56:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:24 And that's what he thinks, too. I mean, I got this from him.

Steven Rinella 56:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:26 He's like, "I think they just wanted to clean up the vegetation 'cause it was unsightly."

Steven Rinella 56:30 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:30 He goes, "And they fucked this place up." 'Cause he was, uh, on a boat and the ... When I, when I met him, he was casting under my dock, you know? And, uh, I went out there and I was like, "What's going on, man?"

Steven Rinella 56:39 You weren't yelling at him? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:40 No.

Cameron Hanes 56:41 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 56:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:41 I've, I've seen that on your show. No, I like it. I always ... When I see those guys, and they, they're always, like, a little nervous.

Steven Rinella 56:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:48 So I was like, "How you doing, man?"

Steven Rinella 56:49 You're like, "Oh, man-"

Joe Rogan 56:50 "Everything good?"

Steven Rinella 56:50 "... this guy's gonna yell at me." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:51 I was telling this guy, like, the other day that there's, like, this four-pound bass that lives underneath my dock. I go, "Hey, man, there's a pretty good bass-"

Steven Rinella 56:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:57 "... that lives under this dock." And he's like, "Really?"

Steven Rinella 56:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:59 I go, "Yeah, come have a fish it, man."

Steven Rinella 57:01 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 57:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:01 So I started talking to him about this. My friend, Alan ... Shout out to Alan, who's my neighbor.

Cameron Hanes 57:06 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 57:06 He catches, all he catches is big bass.

Steven Rinella 57:08 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 57:08 He goes, "I don't even try for the ..." He's, he uses a big-ass fucking Rapala. He has, like, one of those jointed Rapalas.

Steven Rinella 57:13 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 57:13 And it's, like, fucking six inches long. He's like, "I don't even fuck around."

Cameron Hanes 57:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:17 He goes, "I just want big bass." 'Cause there's, there's, like, 15, 16-pound bass in that lake.

Steven Rinella 57:22 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 57:22 Whoa.

Joe Rogan 57:22 And so he, he catches some big ones. He se- he sends me some whoppers.

Steven Rinella 57:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Defenders, the eight-year effort to bring vegetation back to Lake Austin. Yeah, that's it.

Cameron Hanes 57:31 That's the best bass in the country.

Joe Rogan 57:32 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 57:33 Really?

Joe Rogan 57:33 They fucked it up. They fucked it up. There's still good bass there.

Steven Rinella 57:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:38 Let me show you, like, what Alan catches. He's catching some big-ass fucking bass in my s-...

Cameron Hanes 57:42 We're ... We used to ... Me and Roy used to be addicted to carp hunting 'cause we'd go, they'd be spawning in the spring. After we poured concrete, he had a construction company, we'd pour concrete, then we'd go, we'd go try to get carp for bear bait.

Joe Rogan 57:55 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 57:56 So before they outlawed it in '94 in Oregon, we'd get carp, catch these giant carp, have a wheelbarrow, carry, get them all back, put them in a, like, a 55-gallon drum, put the lid on it, and then we'd make stink. So we'd call ... We needed some stink to get the bear bait going. 'Cause if you got that rotten carp in a, in a gunny sack and you put it way up a tree where they couldn't get it, that stink smell would go for five miles down the draw, and then all the bear would come in, right? So, I just remember this one time we had a bunch of carp in a 55-gallon drum. (laughs) A- after a while, that kind of builds pressure. We didn't, we weren't really thinking about this.

Steven Rinella 58:33 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 58:33 So we go to take that lid off and it fricking explodes.

Joe Rogan 58:38 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 58:38 And this shit smells so-

Steven Rinella 58:41 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 58:41 I mean, maggots, uh, carp, rotten carp exploded all over us. It was insane.

Joe Rogan 58:46 Have you ever seen those videos of when whales explode on beaches?

Steven Rinella 58:50 Yeah, when they ... Well, I've seen when they blow them up.

Cameron Hanes 58:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:51 This is when Alan just caught this in front of my house the other day.

Cameron Hanes 58:54 God, dang, that's giant.

Joe Rogan 58:56 Yeah, he catches some big-ass bass.

Cameron Hanes 58:58 That thing's huge, man.

Steven Rinella 58:58 That's a real nice fish, man.

Joe Rogan 58:59 Yeah, I think the, the-

Steven Rinella 59:00 That'd get me interested in bass fishing.

Joe Rogan 59:02 Yeah, he catches a lot. Here's another one he just got. And whenever he catches one, he sends it to me.

Cameron Hanes 59:06 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 59:06 Yeah (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 59:07 We're, we're homies now.

Cameron Hanes 59:08 Those are big fish.

Joe Rogan 59:09 But yeah, that's the w- the weird thing is the dock thing. Like, I encourage it. I'm, I'm happy when I see people. Look, I love all manner of outdoor activities. I would never want someone to not fish near my dock. That's, like, so stupid.

Steven Rinella 59:20 Yeah, I think-

Joe Rogan 59:21 Uh ...

Steven Rinella 59:21 I think it's, it's a, it's a repulsive behavior.

Joe Rogan 59:23 It's repulsive.

Cameron Hanes 59:24 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 59:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:24 It's not, it's not your ...

Cameron Hanes 59:26 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 59:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:26 It's, it's a dock. Like, let people fish. Let ... You should talk to them, they're your friends.

Steven Rinella 59:30 Mm-hmm (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 59:30 They, like ... Wouldn't you do it? If you didn't have a dock, and there was a dock and you knew the fish hang out under the dock, wouldn't you fish there? Yeah. So-

Steven Rinella 59:37 No.

Joe Rogan 59:37 ... what the fuck is wrong with you?

Steven Rinella 59:38 Yeah, so it's, or, or it's like, well, you're gonna have to move your dock 'cause there's a fish under there that I- (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 59:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:44 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 59:44 ... am not gonna fish for.

Joe Rogan 59:46 But, uh, this, uh, this is the, the situation where that's where they go. They go where it's shade.

Steven Rinella 59:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:51 They go where they can ambush.

Steven Rinella 59:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:53 And they, they all go under docks and, you know, hanging trees and anything they can get, because they've fucked it up with carp.

Cameron Hanes 59:59 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 1:00:00 I was living in Seattle for a while, and there's, uh ... We would fish smallmouth and, and perch and stuff in this thing, Lake Washington, which is, like, right downtown. And there's this ... I was in this neighborhood where they have these apartment buildings that are on pilings. So there's just full-on apartment buildings out over the water, built on piers. And they would cast shadows and fish would collect there, and you'd (laughs) , you'd be in a boat, man. I mean, you're like, like ... Besides being out in some dude's front yard under their dock, you're fishing where you're (laughs) , you're ... Right here, I was looking into the window, you know, of someone eating breakfast.

Cameron Hanes 1:00:38 (laughs)

Steven Rinella 1:00:38 But your (laughs) , your cast right there, which felt much more intimate and kind of creepy (laughs) .

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 Yeah, that's weird.

Steven Rinella 1:00:45 That, that felt weird. Way, l- weirder than, you know, like I said, where you got a house, then a yard, then a dock. Like, that's not weird, but you could get where you could basically, like, awkwardly wave at someone in their bathroom (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 1:00:57 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:00:57 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 1:00:57 ... you know, while you're trying to fish (laughs) .

Cameron Hanes 1:00:58 Yeah, just don't make eye contact.

Steven Rinella 1:01:00 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:01:00 ... they're sitting there taking a shit, looking out the window.

Steven Rinella 1:01:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 Yeah. The, the, the, the, the, the dock thing is a weird one, man. It's a weird one, because I, I get it if you're not a fisherman and you're just some asshole that just doesn't want anybody near your house.

Steven Rinella 1:01:14 What they're going to tell you, what they always tell you, is that some guy's gonna take a lead head jig and chip the paint, chip the paint on the boat, ding the dock. Like, that's their claim.

Joe Rogan 1:01:26 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:01:26 Okay.

Steven Rinella 1:01:27 Is that they're, they're gonna whack your, whack your stuff with a lead head jig.

Cameron Hanes 1:01:31 I feel like that's the same as if you're driving off-road, like, and you, you're worried about pebbles. "We gotta get these fucking pebbles out of here."

Steven Rinella 1:01:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:01:38 Like, it's your... You're driving off-road.

Steven Rinella 1:01:40 Yeah, it'd be like-

Cameron Hanes 1:01:41 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 1:01:41 ... "Well, don't put your stuff out over the public water."

Cameron Hanes 1:01:44 Yeah. And it... What are you doing?

Steven Rinella 1:01:45 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:01:45 It's... A boat's not a car, man. Like, it's a boat. It's supposed to get scratched up a little.

Steven Rinella 1:01:49 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:01:50 Like, you don't want your boat scratched up a little? Like, what- Some people don't, no. What the fuck?

Steven Rinella 1:01:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:54 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:01:54 I don't get it. You know what I'm saying?

Steven Rinella 1:01:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:01:56 Like-

Steven Rinella 1:01:57 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:01:57 ... if you've got like... If you're, you're on a ranch and you got those stripes all down the side of your truck-

Steven Rinella 1:02:03 Arizona pinstripes? Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:02:04 Yeah. Like, that's-

Steven Rinella 1:02:05 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:02:05 ... kinda cool. That's just you break it in. Yeah. Like- That's what you do when it's new. You got... You kinda want that. I kinda want that. I, I like a car that's been fucking used, you know.

Steven Rinella 1:02:15 Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have 20 cars, so-

Cameron Hanes 1:02:17 I do.

Joe Rogan 1:02:18 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:02:18 But even if I didn't-

Steven Rinella 1:02:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:02:19 ... I'm pretty sure that's how I would think, you know. Uh, I was thinking... Uh, I was thinking about your shot. You know why I think that that helps when you do the elbow? Because when you get that elbow right, you're pulling hard against that back wall.

Steven Rinella 1:02:32 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:02:32 A lot of people creep on their shot.

Steven Rinella 1:02:35 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:02:36 Like, they'll get... They'll aim and it's... Everything's going good, they're pulling hard. And then as they're aiming, they're kind of relaxing.

Steven Rinella 1:02:41 Oh. Mm.

Cameron Hanes 1:02:42 And, and then that cam is kind of rolling over.

Steven Rinella 1:02:44 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:02:44 It's called creeping. That'll throw off your shot. So, I think when you think of that elbow consciously, it makes you think of pulling hard against that wall, which that's where the bow performs best.

Joe Rogan 1:02:53 Kyle Douglas pulls so hard-

Steven Rinella 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:55 ... that he's made bows break.

Cameron Hanes 1:02:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 He's broken bows. Like in co-

Steven Rinella 1:02:59 Like, pulling into the back wall.

Cameron Hanes 1:03:00 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:00 Yeah, yeah. Pulling hard.

Steven Rinella 1:03:01 I've never thought about what you're saying, but it makes good sense.

Cameron Hanes 1:03:03 Mm-hmm. I think that's why it helps you.

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 Kyle Douglas, who's a fucking... You know, he's like one of the best-

Steven Rinella 1:03:08 Sitting here now trying to picture it, but yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:03:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 Yeah, I, I changed my shot quite a bit when I started pulling really hard against the wall.

Steven Rinella 1:03:14 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:14 Really hard. You know, I pull fucking hard. I have that locked in. And, um, it also changed when I stopped using a resistance, uh, a tension, uh, release.

Steven Rinella 1:03:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:24 'Cause Dudley had me on, uh, what's called a Silverback, which is, I think, one of the best methods for learning how to shoot. Because you have a safety, you pull, and then the... It's all tension-based. So, when you have the safety on, you could pull it hard. And then when you release the safety, you just pull a little more and it goes off. And you could set it to, like, two, three pounds, whatever the amount of difference.

Steven Rinella 1:03:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 So, like, say if you have a 70-pound bow, you set it to 72-pound or whatever it is at, at, you know, when you're at, um, you know, full draw. Whatever the, you know, the drop-off is. So, they have this resistance setting where you can... You, you tweak it in your yard, at, like, you know, five yards where you're right in front of the target. And you get it to the point where it's at the back wall, and then you just pull a little more and it snaps and breaks. And it makes for a perfect release, and I used that forever. But then when I really started pulling hard in the back wall, I was making it go off-

Steven Rinella 1:04:16 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:16 ... when I didn't want it to go off. And then when I switched releases, then I'm like, "Oh, that's definitely the most..." Because you're much more steady when you're like... When I'm fucking locked out-

Steven Rinella 1:04:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 ... I'm locked out. Like, I'm engaged in my back. When I'm shooting at something, I am... Everything is locked out.

Steven Rinella 1:04:32 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 You know? And, uh, I find that to be way more stable.

Cameron Hanes 1:04:35 Is, is your front elbow locked out? 'Cause-

Joe Rogan 1:04:37 My front elbow is locked out.

Cameron Hanes 1:04:39 ... normal?

Joe Rogan 1:04:39 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:04:39 I mean-

Joe Rogan 1:04:40 I used to bend it. I used to bend it a little. But then I was listening to this one guy and he said, "If you are gonna lean against something and wanna be totally stable, wouldn't you lock your arm out if you're leaning against a wall and you wanted to be completely rigid?"

Steven Rinella 1:04:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 And I was like, "Oh, that makes total sense."

Cameron Hanes 1:04:54 No, that's... When you want strength, your, it's bent. Like, if you fall, you're not f- you're not falling like this.

Joe Rogan 1:05:01 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:01 You're falling.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 Falling. Right.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:02 Yeah, but... And if you... When you're, like, benching, like when you have strength like that, it's not locked out, though. You're stronger.

Steven Rinella 1:05:08 Yeah, think of trying to push your... Think about tr- when your buddy's car gets stuck and you're trying to help him push. You're not locked out.

Joe Rogan 1:05:14 Right, but that's strength. I'm not looking for strength. I'm looking for stability.

Steven Rinella 1:05:17 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:18 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 I mean, I have plenty of strength. The strength is not the issue. The str- the thing is, for me, is if I'm locked out, that's less movement.

Steven Rinella 1:05:24 Hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:24 I'm completely lock... But then-

Steven Rinella 1:05:25 I've never... I mean, I'm not saying, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 It's always... There's a very com-

Steven Rinella 1:05:28 ... I, I'm anything but a, I'm anything but a-

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Dudley doesn't agree with it.

Steven Rinella 1:05:31 ... competitive archer, but yeah, I've never heard that in my life.

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 Dudley doesn't agree with it.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:34 Most... Like, I, I just... I know this... Well, I shoot with it bent. We teach everybody to have it a little bit bent, but Wayne always references this poster of these premier hoi, hoi shooters, and they all have the exact same form.

Steven Rinella 1:05:48 Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:48 And they're all slightly bent.

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 Yeah. Oh, man. I find-

Cameron Hanes 1:05:52 But the thing is-

Joe Rogan 1:05:53 ... I find myself better when I'm locked out.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:54 Hey, listen, the thing is-

Steven Rinella 1:05:56 (clears throat)

Cameron Hanes 1:05:56 ... if it works for you-

Steven Rinella 1:05:57 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:05:58 ... who gives a fuck what anybody else says?

Steven Rinella 1:05:59 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:05:59 Because everybody says I anchor wrong with my thumb behind my neck.

Steven Rinella 1:06:02 Right.

Cameron Hanes 1:06:02 So it's like (laughs) , you know, it... Whatever. If the arrow's-

Joe Rogan 1:06:06 That doesn't make any sense to me.

Cameron Hanes 1:06:07 If the arrow's going where it's supposed to...

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 That, the, the, the, the problem with the thumb behind the neck makes no sense to me. That seems to me to be way better, because if you're anchored behind your neck, that's one more point of contact-

Steven Rinella 1:06:18 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 ... and that's one more thing that's locked in. You're, like, completely rigid. That thumb only has that much give, and then it's behind your neck. I would do it if my neck wasn't so thick.

Steven Rinella 1:06:26 I keep needing to see what all this is.

Cameron Hanes 1:06:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:29 Yeah.

Steven Rinella 1:06:29 You see, that doesn't seem crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:06:30 No, no.

Steven Rinella 1:06:31 I've never done it, but-

Joe Rogan 1:06:31 Well, you see Cam do it? Cam, he gets his fucking thumb behind his head.

Cameron Hanes 1:06:35 And the reason why-

Steven Rinella 1:06:36 And your thumb's looking for a little spot, probably, too, right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:38 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:06:39 Kinda, yeah. Now I just don't ev-

Steven Rinella 1:06:40 You know where it's at?

Cameron Hanes 1:06:40 I don't even think about it.

Steven Rinella 1:06:41 Yeah.

Cameron Hanes 1:06:41 But, um, how it used to be back in the day when we started, everybody... Like, there was 30-inch bows, 29-inch bows, and that's about it, draw length. So mine, 27 and a half, uh-... I just had, like, a bow that was way too long-

Narrator 1:06:55 (laughs)

Cameron Hanes 1:06:55 So, I'm just like this, and that's where it started.