Joe Rogan Experience #2114 - Zack Snyder

1. 0:00 – 0:32

   Rogan praises Snyder’s hits; Snyder’s “final boss” comic-book dream (Dark Knight Returns)

   1. ZSZack Snyder0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) We're up. What's going on, man? How are you?

   3. ZSZack Snyder0:14

      I'm good. I'm-

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Welcome aboard. Thank you for being here.

   5. ZSZack Snyder0:16

      No, thanks for having me.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      My pleasure. You, you made two of my all-time favorite movies.

   7. ZSZack Snyder0:22

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      The Watchmen-

   9. ZSZack Snyder0:23

      Okay.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:23

       ... which I fucking love.

   11. ZSZack Snyder0:24

       Okay, awesome.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       And 300.

   13. ZSZack Snyder0:26

       Okay, awesome.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Those are two ... I have like a top 20 list, I've never like formally put together a top 20 list, but those are in there-

   15. ZSZack Snyder0:32

       Oh, that's cool.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       ... for sure.

2. 0:32 – 4:36

   How 300 got made: graphic-novel fidelity, studio skepticism, and the crucial test footage

   1. ZSZack Snyder0:32

      Well, uh, first of all, I appreciate that 'cause, uh, you know, 300 was a complete labor of love and an insane ... Like, you know, 300 was ... I wa- I, I was a Frank Miller fan for a long time, right? And I, I thought the fr- I thought I would do another. I thought I would do Dark Knight Returns, frankly. That was the movie I wanted. I still wanna do it. I, I always tell everyone, like, Dark Knight Returns. If I could do Dark Knight Returns, I'd be done with comic book movies.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:00

      Really?

   3. ZSZack Snyder1:00

      'Cause ... Well, because, like, if you've done Watchmen. Oh, sorry, I'm banging the mic.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:04

      That's okay.

   5. ZSZack Snyder1:04

      If, if, if you do Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, like, for me, your g- your g- your legacy is set.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:11

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ZSZack Snyder1:12

      So, like Batman v Superman literally steals a lot of Dark Knight Returns. I'm not gonna say it didn't, it did. But it's still not Dark Knight Returns, so-

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:21

      Hm.

   9. ZSZack Snyder1:22

      ... I think that's still out there, but I always ... You know, for a long time, I had that. I had 300, like, on my coffee table at my house when I was making TV commercials, you know, and I'd have my friends over. I'd be like, "I'm gonna make this one day. It's gonna look exactly like this comic book."

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       (laughs)

   11. ZSZack Snyder1:36

       And they'd be like, "Yeah, yeah." You're- (laughs) "Sure it is." And, uh, yeah, I was having a, a general meeting with Gianni Nunnari, who was one of the producers, and he was asking me about what I like, and he had that graphic novel in his office.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:52

       Oh, wow.

   13. ZSZack Snyder1:52

       Like, on his table, and I went, "Well, okay, you know what? If I could do anything, that book right there, I would make that." And he goes, "Well, what do you mean? How would you make it?" And I literally just opened it up, and I go, "We'd make ... We'd film this. We'd film these pictures. It would look like this." And he goes, "Okay, that's cool. Like, so you're saying you would just shoot the movie and it would look like this graphic novel?" I go, "That's what I'm saying." And I think ... And that's what ... But, but at the time, we couldn't sell it. We tried. We went around town with it. We tried to ... I literally ... We went to all the studios. Um, you know, they were all kind of, um, kind of like, "Yeah, sword and sandals? Eh."

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:34

       Wasn't it the same time that Troy was being made?

   15. ZSZack Snyder2:36

       It was exactly the same time as Troy, and when we went to Warner Brothers originally with it, they, they literally were like, "We have, we have Troy, so why would we want this?" "We have Brad Pitt. Like, literally Brad Pitt is in our movie. What are you ... " I go, "We're gonna do something crazy. We're not even gonna shoot it outside." (laughs) And they were like, "What? Okay, you're nuts."

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:57

       (laughs)

   17. ZSZack Snyder2:58

       And I go, "Yeah, we're not gonna go for one shot outside." We ended up going for one shot outside for this when the Persian messengers are coming, that super high-speed shot where the horses are kinda coming over the hill. We shot that outside because we just couldn't (laughs) get the horses going fast enough in the ... It's the shot right before this, I think.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:15

       Oh, I missed the shot.

   19. ZSZack Snyder3:15

       Oh, no, it's this one. That's it. It's that shot. So that shot was the, the horses. That was a high-speed shot we did with PhotoSonics outside, but that was it. That's like the only shot outside. Everything else is on stage.

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:26

       'Cause you couldn't get the horses to run fast enough inside.

   21. ZSZack Snyder3:26

       'Cause we couldn't get the horses fast enough inside, yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:28

       Yeah.

   23. ZSZack Snyder3:28

       And we ... And it, it was too expensive. That was a low-budget movie, you know, and we couldn't get-

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:31

       300 was a low-budget movie?

   25. ZSZack Snyder3:33

       Yeah, 'cause we ... I mean, we shot it all on stage, 60 days. Like, that's like why there's no director's cut of, of Watch- of 300 is because we've ... Every frame of film, we shot this in the, the shot-

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:45

       You shot that movie in 60 days?

   27. ZSZack Snyder3:47

       60 days, yeah. It was-

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:48

       Wow.

   29. ZSZack Snyder3:48

       ... it was crazy, yeah. It was-

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:49

       That's insane.
3. 4:36 – 5:25

   Shooting a ‘whole green-screen movie’ on a tight schedule and budget

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:36

      Was that one of the first movies that was ever shot in front of a green screen?

   2. ZSZack Snyder4:39

      (coughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:39

      Like, basically most of the movie except that one scene.

   4. ZSZack Snyder4:42

      (coughs) Sorry. Yeah, I don't think it was like ... Look, green screen photography was like a well-known way to make a movie, visual effects and all that.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      A whole movie?

   6. ZSZack Snyder4:50

      Yeah, I don't know about a whole movie. That, that, that was weird. Uh, uh, I always say, like, they go like, "Well, what innovations? Like, what ..." And I always go like, "It's basically the same technology that the weatherman uses."

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:00

      (laughs)

   8. ZSZack Snyder5:00

      You know, like when, (laughs) you know when he stands in front of the green screen and says like, "Oh, the front's coming in from the north." You know, it's literally, yeah, it's literally the same ... It's literally the same technology, you know, as a, as a ... 'Cause look, that g- easily you could put like the weather behind that guy right there-

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:17

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ZSZack Snyder5:17

       ... and it'd be the same. That's, uh, that's Eli. That's my son. Uh-

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       Oh, wow.

   12. ZSZack Snyder5:21

       He's now making movies. He was the second unit director on Rebel Moon.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       Oh, that's so cool.

4. 5:25 – 7:47

   Family on set: Snyder’s son in Watchmen and the ‘Rorschach childhood’ scenes

   1. ZSZack Snyder5:25

      (laughs) Yeah, he's ... He also plays the young Rorschach in, uh, in, um-

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:30

      Watchmen?

   3. ZSZack Snyder5:31

      In Watchmen.

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:31

      Really?

   5. ZSZack Snyder5:31

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:31

      Wow.

   7. ZSZack Snyder5:32

      Like the ba- the baby Rorschach, yeah. 'Cause like e- e- you put your kid in a movie, and I always was like, "Oh, let, let's have Eli do that 'cause it's easier, you know." And like, he has to, like, beat the other kid up. Just Eli's better 'cause like I don't have to talk to like some, you know, other ... 'Cause like actually there's a scene in Watchmen, you know, where he bites the kid's face.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ZSZack Snyder5:49

      And he pulls the flesh off the face, and I go, I ... "You know what? Let's just get E- E to do it." 'Cause then I could just be like, "Okay, E, bite this. Now pull it, or like rip it off."

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:57

       Right.

   11. ZSZack Snyder5:58

       The only troubling part of that is that there was a scene that we did, um, in that movie where the ... You know, because Rorschach's mom was a prostitute, right?... so there's that scene where Rorschach's mom, in the flashback's like, "I should have had that abortion!" Right? And she slaps him in the face, right? Because, 'cause he hears, "Mom, is he hurting you?" Like, 'cause she's having sex with some, some John in there, and then she opens the door and she's like, you know. He's like, "Is he hurting you?" "I should have had that abortion!" Slapped him. And I had wanted the mother to be topless in that scene, and they were like, "Nah, like, you can't have..." And it's cool because his mother was visiting set that day and his mom, um, was there, and she was like, "Oh, you're putting our son in a movie." Like, we weren't together at the time, um, his mom and I, but she, we were really close friends. But (laughs) like she was an actress, and I said... And they went, "The only way that the woman can be topless is if it was actually his mom." And I was like, "Uh!" I go, "Denise."

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:03

       (laughs)

   13. ZSZack Snyder7:03

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:03

       And she was like, "You're..."

   15. ZSZack Snyder7:04

       No chance. (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:06

       (laughs) Imagine asking your ex-wife-

   17. ZSZack Snyder7:09

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:09

       ... to play a terrible prostitute who slaps their son and says, "I wish I had an abortion." Holy shit.

   19. ZSZack Snyder7:15

       I go, "Come on, it's for the drama. It's not like..." (gags)

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:18

       Oh my God.

   21. ZSZack Snyder7:19

       I know. And she was like, "You are insane." And I was like, "Come on, it would've been awesome."

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:22

       It's the least slightly insane. (laughs)

   23. ZSZack Snyder7:24

       Yeah, a little bit.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:24

       But that would be the only way to do it.

   25. ZSZack Snyder7:26

       (laughs) Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       Could you see-

   27. ZSZack Snyder7:27

       With the boobs on her?

   28. JRJoe Rogan7:28

       ... CGI boobs on her?

   29. ZSZack Snyder7:28

       Yeah. That, that's cool. At the time, probably. Now I think we could.

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:32

       Yeah.
5. 7:47 – 11:27

   The infamous Watchmen topless-mom dilemma and “CGI boobs” as a modern solution

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:47

      ... CGI was used on their bodies in 300?

   2. ZSZack Snyder7:49

      Zero CGI on the body.

   3. JRJoe Rogan7:51

      Really?

   4. ZSZack Snyder7:51

      Really ze-

   5. JRJoe Rogan7:51

      'Cause-

   6. ZSZack Snyder7:51

      We didn't have the money, honestly.

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:53

      So many people-

   8. ZSZack Snyder7:54

      I know, it's-

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:54

      ... talk so much shit.

   10. ZSZack Snyder7:56

       Shit! I swear to God, I'm like... You know, you get, you need Mark Twight on this show, and then Mark'll tell you, uh, you know, Mark is, Mark trained the guys. Mark's like this amazing... He's like, uh, he, I, I've known Mark for years, and he wa- he's an incredible alpine climber. He's like this, he's just like this insane... He can shoot, he can fuckin', he can do anything that anyone can do. And like, when I asked him to train the guys, he's like, "This sounds like Hollywood bullshit." Like, train actors for a movie? Like, they're all fakers, they're all liars. And I was like, "Look, you, you will make them honest." And so he's like, "All right." So he started training everybody. Yeah, there's Mark right there. And, um, the, his gym was called Jim Jones, right? Like, just as an example of like how hard he is. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan8:40

       (laughs)

   12. ZSZack Snyder8:40

       Um, but yeah. And so like, you know, he had trained all these SEALs and, you know, basically, th- it was basically the same thing that he was doing with the SEALs, he did with these actors. And, uh, you can-

   13. JRJoe Rogan8:54

       So a prerequisite had to be, though-

   14. ZSZack Snyder8:55

       You can imagine. It-

   15. JRJoe Rogan8:56

       It had to be in some form of shape.

   16. ZSZack Snyder8:57

       You had to be in some shape. Some-

   17. JRJoe Rogan8:59

       Yeah.

   18. ZSZack Snyder8:59

       ... sh- teeny bit of shape. Uh, a couple guys came to us that were, you know, pure actors. Um, but 90%, you know, had, um, had some, had some shape, but yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:11

       How much time did you have to work with them?

   20. ZSZack Snyder9:13

       I'm trying to remember. Uh, normally what I like is at least five weeks. I l- I like five weeks, and I'll take more if you'll give it to me.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:23

       Sure, for a film, but I mean-

   22. ZSZack Snyder9:24

       For a film.

   23. JRJoe Rogan9:25

       ... to prepare physically.

   24. ZSZack Snyder9:27

       Y- I, I'm talking about before the film starts. At two months or three months I like, before the film starts, of, of-

   25. JRJoe Rogan9:34

       Th- that-

   26. ZSZack Snyder9:34

       ... training.

   27. JRJoe Rogan9:35

       That's enough time to get them into that-

   28. ZSZack Snyder9:36

       It's not.

   29. JRJoe Rogan9:36

       ... kinda 300 shape?

   30. ZSZack Snyder9:37

       It, it, it never is. These guys trained doubly as hard, and they knew. A lot of them were athletes anyway, so they came in with, like... And Jerry had had more time. Um, and Jerry trained with his own guy. Jerry didn't, uh, train with Mark. Uh, but like, yeah, so, you know, it depends. Like, you know, when, w- Henry Cavill, um, Mark trained Henry for, um, for Superman, and, uh, that was a ver- that was a real, um, that was longer. I think that was three months or four months. Um, but yeah, it's not, it's never enough time, because you just can't get it.
6. 11:27 – 20:41

   Building the 300 physiques: Mark Twight, the ‘pain cave,’ and actor transformation limits

   1. ZSZack Snyder11:27

      ... it makes the training mean something. You know, I was always, I've always been like a sort of bodybuilding fan, like in the '80s. I, I trained with this guy, um, in the '80s who was just like a teacher that lived, you know? This guy Jim Arden who lived in Greenwich, Connecticut, where I grew up. He was a teacher at this school called Greenwich Country Day, which was near the boarding school that I went to. And I was like, you know, everyone expected me to be like, uh, I, I, I played soccer, I was like an athlete, I was a really... But then I sorta got into, like, weight training, and I was like, "That's what I wanna do." Everyone thought I was insane. But like, you know, it, uh, and I think it was, it was my meeting Jim and Jim being like... 'Cause Jim had this...... in the basement of Grunge Country Day, there was, like, this weirdo, Jim. And like, you know, Chris Dickerson and, like, you know, Mike Katz, all these like crazy '80s bodybuilders would show up and train with him. And it was like this weird ... I'd be like, "This is awesome." And like, we went to the Olympia, like he took us to the Olympia in New York City. I don't ... What year was that? Like '82 or '3. I forget what year. But anyway, it was just really cool, and I was just in this ... And then, of course, I was like, you know, Schwarzenegger. I read his, like, book, Education of a Bodybuilder. You know, it's a weirdo book. I didn't re-

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:39

      So, did you get involved in bodybuilding yourself?

   3. ZSZack Snyder12:41

      I mean, I trained with Jim 'cause I thought like, "Okay, yeah, maybe I'll be a bodybuilder one day. That'd be cool." Like, you know. But, of course, like, I was also painting and I, I remember when I, when I was a senior in high school, after I graduated, I went to London for a year, to art school, to paint. And I lost like 40 pounds of muscle in th- um, in that year. Just (laughs) like literally, I was in like the best shape of my life, went to England to be a painter. And like literally just ate baked beans on toast for a year, and like starved to death. Uh.

   4. JRJoe Rogan13:11

      Oh, wow.

   5. ZSZack Snyder13:11

      But I was like, "This is amazing." You know, like, "I'm an artist." You know, but it was, it was definitely, it definitely put a, put a, uh ... But I always had the like, but I always had that aesthetic, you know, bug in my head. And now I have ... My trainer now is this guy, Alessandro. He trained everyone for Rebel Moon, and he's like this, he's like six- in his early 60s, Italian, was a bodybuilder. Was a powerlifter, became a bodybuilder. And he's like, you know, he's just like this Ita- he's a hard Italian. No bullshit. Like, you know. It was cool because on the, during the, during the training for Rebel Moon, one of the actors was like, "I have an idea for a workout. Do you wanna hear it?" And he's like, "I have an idea for a movie."

   6. JRJoe Rogan13:50

      (laughs)

   7. ZSZack Snyder13:51

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan13:54

      Stay in your lane.

   9. ZSZack Snyder13:55

      Exactly.

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:56

       (laughs)

   11. ZSZack Snyder13:56

       He's like ... Or like the guys at the gym, like, 'cause you know he used to like judge bodybuilding competitions and, you know, has his pro card and everything. Was like a real bodybuilder. And they'd say like, "Hey, can you come and look at me? You know, I, I have a contest coming up in the bathroom." And he, they go in there and the guy'd take his shirt off and he'd be like, "How long 'til the competition?" And they'd go ... he'd be like, "I got two months 'til the competition." And Alessandro'd be like, "I think next year, for you, is gonna be better." (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan14:20

       Wow.

   13. ZSZack Snyder14:20

       You know, it's like, oh. No, and he has no problem with saying, you know, like, "I think I need to lose like 40 pounds." "More like 80." (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan14:27

       (laughs) Jesus.

   15. ZSZack Snyder14:27

       He's like, he's hard. But he's, but he's awesome. He like, no bullshit. Like he's all ... I, I, I, I think he's ... And like, you know, he trained the guys for Rebel Moon, and he's like a pure aesthetic-

   16. JRJoe Rogan14:37

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ZSZack Snyder14:37

       ... trainer.

   18. JRJoe Rogan14:38

       Right.

   19. ZSZack Snyder14:38

       Like pure aesthetic, you know. He, he-

   20. JRJoe Rogan14:40

       Just going for a look.

   21. ZSZack Snyder14:40

       He's seen everything, you know.

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:41

       Yeah.

   23. ZSZack Snyder14:41

       And he'd just like, "Okay, you know, your abs could be sharper, you know."

   24. JRJoe Rogan14:46

       Yeah. That's a weird thing.

   25. ZSZack Snyder14:47

       Yeah. It's like a whole thing, you know.

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:49

       Yeah.

   27. ZSZack Snyder14:49

       It's like, just like-

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:50

       It is a whole thing.

   29. ZSZack Snyder14:50

       It's like a whole thing. Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan14:51

       Yeah. I had Ronnie Coleman on.
7. 20:41 – 24:18

   Bodybuilding obsession, longevity talk, and Rogan’s recovery philosophy

   1. JRJoe Rogan20:41

      Dude, I just watched 300 again this summer 'cause my family and I went to, uh, went to Greece.

   2. ZSZack Snyder20:46

      Oh, cool.

   3. JRJoe Rogan20:46

      And so we were like-

   4. ZSZack Snyder20:47

      Cool.

   5. JRJoe Rogan20:47

      ... "Let's watch 300."

   6. ZSZack Snyder20:48

      Yeah. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan20:48

      And my 13-year-old had never seen Greek, 300 before, and she was like, "Holy shit."

   8. ZSZack Snyder20:52

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan20:52

      I was like, "Yeah. That's a fucking movie."

   10. ZSZack Snyder20:55

       (laughs) We were just in Greece this summer too, and it was cool 'cause we were, like, in Athens, and we were walking up to the Parthenon, and I noticed, like, all the gift shops, they had, like, Spartan shit in them, right?

   11. JRJoe Rogan21:05

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ZSZack Snyder21:06

       And, uh-

   13. JRJoe Rogan21:07

       Yeah.

   14. ZSZack Snyder21:07

       ... I go ... I said to the guide, I go, "I'm sorry about that." And she goes, "What are you talking about?"

   15. JRJoe Rogan21:11

       (laughs)

   16. ZSZack Snyder21:13

       (laughs) And I go, "I apologize for all this Spartan stuff in here." And she goes, "Yeah, it's that fucking movie 300." (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan21:20

       (laughs)

   18. ZSZack Snyder21:20

       (laughs) And I said-

   19. JRJoe Rogan21:21

       Did she know that you made it?

   20. ZSZack Snyder21:22

       No, no.

   21. JRJoe Rogan21:23

       (laughs)

   22. ZSZack Snyder21:23

       (laughs) No, no.

   23. JRJoe Rogan21:23

       (laughs)

   24. ZSZack Snyder21:24

       And then I said ... I go, "Yeah," that's why I said, "I'm sorry. I made that movie." And she goes, "What do you mean, you made it?"

   25. JRJoe Rogan21:28

       (laughs)

   26. ZSZack Snyder21:28

       And I was like, "Yeah, I, I-"

   27. JRJoe Rogan21:29

       "That's my movie."

   28. ZSZack Snyder21:30

       "... that's my movie." And she goes, "No." And I go, "Yeah." And then she was like, "That's awesome." (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan21:39

       (laughs) Now she likes you.

   30. ZSZack Snyder21:40

       Yeah, it was cool.
8. 24:18 – 31:22

   300’s cultural impact and the ‘alien morality’ of Sparta

   1. ZSZack Snyder24:18

      ... crazy.

   2. JRJoe Rogan24:18

      ... I think when we look at things like that and we put ourselves in the mindset of someone who lived so many years ago, like that, there's this-... there's this understanding that human beings are capable of fitting into a bunch of different bizarre groups. V- a bunch of different strange cultures can rise, and when you have a particularly barbaric time in history, and you have this group of people in Athens that are literally changing the world through democracy, and through the Eleusinian mysteries, and all the shit that they were doing where people are traveling from all over the globe to come to this one spot. And then you got these fucking savages. These people are the savages of savages-

   3. ZSZack Snyder25:06

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan25:06

      ... the Spartans.

   5. ZSZack Snyder25:07

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan25:07

      They're the, like ... If you think about i- o- if, if someone says, like, "What kind of a warrior would you want to be?"

   7. ZSZack Snyder25:13

      Right.

   8. JRJoe Rogan25:13

      If you're a little kid, "I want to be a Spartan."

   9. ZSZack Snyder25:15

      Yeah, of course. It's why-

   10. JRJoe Rogan25:15

       It's like, they were the craziest.

   11. ZSZack Snyder25:16

       ... all these sports teams have Spartans as their-

   12. JRJoe Rogan25:18

       Right.

   13. ZSZack Snyder25:18

       ... like, mascots, you know?

   14. JRJoe Rogan25:19

       Yeah. And to imagine that there was a group of people that existed, a culture that existed, that was completely warlike and had these tenets that were just unbendable.

   15. ZSZack Snyder25:30

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:30

       And from the time you were a child, they tested you.

   17. ZSZack Snyder25:34

       Yeah, that's it.

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:34

       And if you, if you fucked up, if you failed, if you fell apart, if you quit, you were chucked out.

   19. ZSZack Snyder25:39

       Yeah, the Krypteia, like, they, they, you know, that, that whole thing, like, where they, they would send you ... Like, around seven, you'd go, in the agoge, you'd go, like, into the wilderness, and you're basically living among other kids that were between, like, seven and 13. And you just were, like, wild. And they ... And th- and the, and the, the, the sort of elite of those groups were called the Krypteia. And the Krypteia would come down and just kill Helots whenever they wanted. Like, they were encouraged. The Helots were that slave, the slave class that the, that the Spartans sort of, that maintained Spartan society. And these guys, these kids ... Imagine, like, if you lived (laughs) you know, in, like, in the hills, you knew there was just, like, this 13-year-old gang of 13-year-olds that were gonna just come down and murder you at any moment.

   20. JRJoe Rogan26:22

       And they were encouraged to murder you.

   21. ZSZack Snyder26:22

       And they were encouraged to do it, because they, like ... And also, the Helots were fine. If the Helots killed them, that was fine, because that meant they, that they weren't good enough anyway. And then they would have this, like ... They did this ritual with this, like, table of cheese, where, like, all these Spartan warriors would stand around the table. And all the 13-year-olds who were ready to, like, transition into becoming true Spartans, you'd have to, like, try and get and pull a piece of cheese off this stone table. And the, and the Spartan warriors who guarded the table could do anything to stop you.

   22. JRJoe Rogan26:52

       Oh, God.

   23. ZSZack Snyder26:52

       And it was just, like, just beating the crap out of these 13-year-olds when they ... And finally, like, you know, if you got it, then you were, you were given to a, a Spartan soldier who raised you. And basically, the idea was that you ... He was your lover, he was your teacher, he was everything to you. Because the Spartans believed that ... You know, really, they believed that y- you, you would die for your, your brother if you were also lovers. You know, they thought-

   24. JRJoe Rogan27:19

       Right.

   25. ZSZack Snyder27:19

       ... they thought that, like, "If you are confused about why we're fighting, fight for that guy, who's not only-"

   26. JRJoe Rogan27:25

       Right.

   27. ZSZack Snyder27:25

       "... your best buddy, but, like ..." Uh, there's, like, a story, I guess, where they were like, "The Spart ... When the Persians first came, they sent a scout over. And th- and they looked down at the Spartans right, the night before the big battle." And he goes ... He went back, and he goes, "They were all, like, having sex with each other. It was, like, a weird ..." Like, they're-

   28. JRJoe Rogan27:41

       (laughs)

   29. ZSZack Snyder27:41

       They're like, "It's n- we're, we're gonna be good." And th- and th- there was this, one of the Spartans kings was ... The old Spartan king was now working with the Persians, and said, like, "Oh, no, we're fucked. They're saying goodbye to each other. Do you know, like, do you know what that means? Like, we're completely screwed. Like, they're gonna ... (laughs) Like, we're gonna get murdered tomorrow." You know? Like ... And, and they were like, "You're, you're nuts. You don't know what you're talking about." Like, "They're a bunch of softies. Like, let's go get 'em."

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:06

       (laughs) What if that's the key to the, to being the g- the absolute greatest army? You have to be gay.
9. 31:22 – 41:05

   Spartan society deep dive: agoge, Krypteia, and sexuality as military bonding

   1. ZSZack Snyder31:22

      Well, uh, as soon as, like, you know, what, what is that Einstein thing? You know, if World War III is fought with nuclear weapons, World War IV will be fought with rocks? (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan31:28

      Yeah.

   3. ZSZack Snyder31:29

      Sti- sticks and rocks, you know? So it's like a-

   4. JRJoe Rogan31:31

      Yeah. Well, if it's world war that does it, it's probably gonna wipe out the whole race. But if it's something else, there, there could be a, th- uh, like, everyone thinks of dystopia as being something man-created, which is real possible. But it's also possible we get hit by an asteroid.

   5. ZSZack Snyder31:44

      Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

   6. JRJoe Rogan31:44

      That's more possible, I think. That's, that's more likely. I think, I think we could fuck up and nuke each other, but it's probably not gonna happen. 'Cause people have been really good about it since 1947.

   7. ZSZack Snyder31:55

      Yeah, yeah, yeah (laughs) . They've been pretty-

   8. JRJoe Rogan31:57

      It's nice. Congra- thank you everybody-

   9. ZSZack Snyder31:58

      Yeah, good work, guys.

   10. JRJoe Rogan31:59

       ... we're 45, I guess?

   11. ZSZack Snyder32:00

       Yeah, good work. (laughs)

   12. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       But there's a, there's a giant difference between, uh, things that you can control and things you can't control. With, through diplomacy and people aging out, it's possible that we could never have a nuclear war. It's not possible we're not gonna get hit.

   13. ZSZack Snyder32:14

       Oh, yeah, no. That's why-

   14. JRJoe Rogan32:15

       Yeah.

   15. ZSZack Snyder32:15

       ... I mean, like, I v- I'm very, I, I very much encourage any, um, (clicks tongue) NASA programs that are l- you know, with their, they got their telescopes pointed in-

   16. JRJoe Rogan32:24

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ZSZack Snyder32:24

       ... into the stars. They're like, "Oh, here comes one."

   18. JRJoe Rogan32:26

       Yeah.

   19. ZSZack Snyder32:26

       "And let's see if we can go get it." You know?

   20. JRJoe Rogan32:27

       Yeah. Yeah.

   21. ZSZack Snyder32:28

       Nudge it. Nudge it.

   22. JRJoe Rogan32:29

       They're close, they're close to being able to do that. Neil deGrasse Tyson said they're about a decade away from being able to deflect asteroids.

   23. ZSZack Snyder32:35

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan32:35

       Th- this-

   25. ZSZack Snyder32:36

       That'll be a big deal.

   26. JRJoe Rogan32:36

       Yeah. Th- but the hope is, in that decade, that we don't miss one.

   27. ZSZack Snyder32:40

       We don't get hit. Or-

   28. JRJoe Rogan32:41

       We don't miss one. 'Cause some of them come in from behind the sun.

   29. ZSZack Snyder32:43

       Oh, yeah, yeah. No. They're like, "Oh, yeah, we don't, oh." Woop.

   30. JRJoe Rogan32:45

       Yeah. Yeah.
10. 41:05 – 46:39

    Dystopia, space threats, and why the grid (and “the cloud”) is a fragile illusion

    1. JRJoe Rogan41:05

       Oh, yeah. There's a guy out here in Austin, Texas. His name is John Danaher. He's widely considered to be the greatest jujitsu coach ever.

    2. ZSZack Snyder41:14

       Oh, really? He's here?

    3. JRJoe Rogan41:14

       And he's a professor. Uh, he was a professor of philosophy at Columbia.

    4. ZSZack Snyder41:19

       At school.

    5. JRJoe Rogan41:20

       And, uh, was spending time as a bouncer and wanted to learn martial arts, got into jujitsu, and became a jujitsu fanatic, to the point where he's teaching it and sleeping on the floors and changing classes.

    6. ZSZack Snyder41:31

       Did he have a natural gift for it anyway, like it was like a-

    7. JRJoe Rogan41:33

       Well, he's a very strong guy.

    8. ZSZack Snyder41:34

       A double, double? Okay.

    9. JRJoe Rogan41:35

       He's very strong. He played rugby, but rugby destroyed his knee. Fucked his body up but ... Which kept him from, uh, even- ultimately competing, but he's-... just a, a crazy, mad genius that doesn't give a fuck about anything but fighting.

    10. ZSZack Snyder41:49

        (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan41:49

        So all he's doing is, like, teaching people how to strangle people during the day and then watching tape. And review- v-reviewing techniques and creating the next, the next, uh, workout schedule. And they work out 365 days a year.

    12. ZSZack Snyder42:04

        That's awesome.

    13. JRJoe Rogan42:05

        365 days a year.

    14. ZSZack Snyder42:06

        Yeah, yeah.

    15. JRJoe Rogan42:06

        And his number one student is Gordon Ryan, who's widely considered to be the greatest jujitsu athlete of all time-

    16. ZSZack Snyder42:12

        Sure.

    17. JRJoe Rogan42:12

        ... without question. That's his belt up there, the Abu Dhabi belt-

    18. ZSZack Snyder42:15

        Oh, that's awesome. Oh, that's awesome.

    19. JRJoe Rogan42:15

        ... when he won Abu Dhabi.

    20. ZSZack Snyder42:16

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan42:16

        But he's his number one student, and they just train 365 days a year. They take no days off. Christmas, fuck you.

    22. ZSZack Snyder42:23

        Christmas. (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan42:24

        Your birthday, fuck you.

    24. ZSZack Snyder42:25

        (laughs) That's cool.

    25. JRJoe Rogan42:26

        And it's just-

    26. ZSZack Snyder42:26

        That's cool.

    27. JRJoe Rogan42:27

        ... y- you've got days where you don't train as hard.

    28. ZSZack Snyder42:29

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan42:29

        Are you worn out? Well, you're not gonna train as hard today.

    30. ZSZack Snyder42:32

        Yeah.
11. 46:39 – 58:41

    Obsessive mastery and modern learning: YouTube, Danaher, and the dopamine trap of games

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:39

       Racing simulator?

    2. ZSZack Snyder46:39

       ... racing simulators too.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:40

       I haven't even hopped on that yet.

    4. ZSZack Snyder46:41

       By the way, the, the-

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:42

       We've had it for over a week. I'm scared of it.

    6. ZSZack Snyder46:43

       ... problem with it is it's too ... It's like racing.

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:46

       Yeah.

    8. ZSZack Snyder46:46

       It's like ... The one thing I did like, I, I, I saw this the other day where they had the F- one of the F1 guys went against, like, some, some kid.

    9. JRJoe Rogan46:56

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ZSZack Snyder46:56

        And he beat him. And I was like, "That makes me happy."

    11. JRJoe Rogan46:59

        On the racing simulator?

    12. ZSZack Snyder47:00

        On the racing simulator.

    13. JRJoe Rogan47:01

        Yeah. Well, of course.

    14. ZSZack Snyder47:01

        And I was like, that made me happy. Well, only just because, you know, you want that skillset. (laughs) You want in your mind that skillset to translate.

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:08

        Yes.

    16. ZSZack Snyder47:09

        Like, you're like, "See?"

    17. JRJoe Rogan47:10

        I was watching this thing-

    18. ZSZack Snyder47:11

        It still matters.

    19. JRJoe Rogan47:12

        ... on Formula 1 drivers, like all the different things that they have to be able to do. Their response time is so much faster than anybody else's. They had this thing where they had the lights, and the lights go off, you have to touch the light when it goes off.

    20. ZSZack Snyder47:22

        Sure.

    21. JRJoe Rogan47:22

        And the Formula 1 race car drivers were, like, off the charts.

    22. ZSZack Snyder47:25

        Oh, really?

    23. JRJoe Rogan47:26

        And they all have-

    24. ZSZack Snyder47:26

        They're just wired different?

    25. JRJoe Rogan47:27

        They all have crazy thick necks.

    26. ZSZack Snyder47:29

        Oh, yeah. From the-

    27. JRJoe Rogan47:29

        Because it's just ... (imitates engine revving)

    28. ZSZack Snyder47:31

        And also the helmet's not light, you know?

    29. JRJoe Rogan47:32

        Yeah.

    30. ZSZack Snyder47:32

        It's, like, a serious ... Yeah.
12. 58:41 – 1:14:02

    Speed culture: racing simulators, Formula 1 obsession, and how Netflix makes niches explode

    1. ZSZack Snyder58:41

       But yeah, that... It was fun actually. That time in my life, traveling around and doing all those TV commercials all over the world. Like, I had a crew of guys. It was like me and my boys, um, and we would just like literally go one job, Papua New Guinea, one job, Germany, one job, Mexico, one job, Iceland. Like, over and o-... We were just on the road completely out of our minds and it was just... You know, and like, whatever product we'd be like, "Okay," I'd be pitching... The guys would be like, "What are we doing next?" I'm like, "I don't... I gotta get on a call." We... Like, I have an agency and I get on the call in the hotel room and I pitch them and I'd be, like, be out of my mind, I don't know what I'm saying.

    2. JRJoe Rogan59:19

       (laughs)

    3. ZSZack Snyder59:19

       And I'd come out and they'd be like, "How'd it go?" And I, "I think I got it!" And they were like, "How'd you... Did you nail it?" And I was like, "Yeah! I told them it's gonna be like low angles and slow motion and it's fucking cool!" And they were like, "Okay, cool. Let's go." And I, and it was just this... We were just in this machine and, and, and frankly, I learned everything... Like, I spent 10 years... You know like that 10,000 hours thing?

    4. JRJoe Rogan59:38

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ZSZack Snyder59:38

       It literally... I spent 10 years with every production problem 'cause I was a director of photography. I was a DP and the director in, you know, we were a pretty small show, you know? But we had giant clients, anything you can think of. So then when I went to make a movie, it wasn't like there was no... There was no thing I hadn't seen, you know?

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:03

       Right.

    7. ZSZack Snyder1:00:03

       It wasn't like I stepped onto set like, "Oh, I'm a first time director." Everyone's like, "Oh, this guy's a first time director." Like, "What's his..." You know, "What's he gonna say?" And I'd be like-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:11

       Right.

    9. ZSZack Snyder1:00:11

       There... There was like... The tools were my tools, you know what I mean? Like, I was very comfortable with the tool set that I had in front of me.

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:20

        Mm-hmm.

    11. ZSZack Snyder1:00:20

        Like, more so than I probably should've been. You know, I remember Matt Lionetti, who was the DP of Dawn of the Dead, that was my first movie, was like halfway through the thing, he's like-... you know, you know what you're doing. Like, you know (laughs) ... you know what I mean? Like, you know what you're doing. Like, he goes, "They can't fire you now." Because, like, we were halfway through. 'Cause, like, I was so diligent, like, on my first movie. I was so scared. You know? Scott Stuber, who, um, was the executive at Netflix, who was my executive on, uh, Army of the Dead, he was the one that hired me to do Dawn. And I was so... I wanted to do such a, like... I wanted to be so conscientious, and I was so scared of, like, going overbudget and not nailing it and making sure it was cool and all that, um, that, like, Matt Lionetti at one point was like, "Look, man, like, you gotta just... Fuck it. You know? You- you're... it's your... Make it cool now. Don't give a fuck. Just make it c-... Do what you think." And it was such great advice, because I think the movie's edge and all the coolness in the movie, and the man comes around and all the, like, weirdness, the whole, like, montage with the Richard Cheese song in the middle, that was all just me going, "All right, good. Thanks, Matt. I'm gonna just go." And he goes, "Good," 'cause like... you know, because otherwise he goes, "You're just gonna make a movie that this zombie movie's gonna disappear."

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:42

        Hmm.

    13. ZSZack Snyder1:01:42

        You know? Unless you fucking...

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:43

        Add your sauce.

    15. ZSZack Snyder1:01:44

        Yeah, go... You gotta add your sauce.

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:46

        Yeah.

    17. ZSZack Snyder1:01:46

        'Cause he goes... otherwise it's like, "Look, another zombie movie," like, who cares?

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:49

        Right.

    19. ZSZack Snyder1:01:49

        Like, he goes, "You..." he goes, "I know you know what's cool."

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:53

        Well, you made it fun.

    21. ZSZack Snyder1:01:54

        A- a- and I think that that was the whole thing. For me, it was like, how do you make a B movie that's self-aware that it's a B movie, right?

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:02

        Hmm.

    23. ZSZack Snyder1:02:03

        And in that self-awareness, it lets you off the hook to enjoy it, because you can still be smart. Like, you deconstructed the genre. You... 'cause, like, I've always been fascinated with genre and the deconstruction of genre. Like, I'm a genre filmmaker. I always say to everybody, like, people are like, "What kind of fil-"... I'm a genre filmmaker, like, and that is to say that, like, in genre though, you can explore, like, philosophy, you can explore, um, mythology especially, which is like... Myth is, like, my main... Like, we make myth, modern myth. Movies are modern myth. Superhero movies are modern myth. Like, is it not the same when you say... Like, we have Superman, right? And Batman or whatever. Are they not the mythic answer to the modern, a lot of modern questions about, like, how we should live? You know, like, you say, "Superman," is he not an, like, an invention, a 20th century invention that says to us, like, all the fucking shit that we run up against, whether it be war or, like, class struggle, or whether it be, you know, uh, you know, inter-, um, relationships between different countries. Does Superman not appear in answer to us primitive brains trying to figure out what the f-... where we are? Like, you make a guy like Superman so he can answer some of those questions. He can represent a point of view that is not helpless in the face of the insanity that is, like, you know, the, the problems of the 20th century. And I think... and Batman in the same way. He's an a- answer to, like, urban... What is urban? The urban jungle needs a myth, you know?

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:03:46

        Hmm.

    25. ZSZack Snyder1:03:46

        Just like the ancient jungle needed a myth or the ancient... you know, those all... Like, in those days we'd say, like, "Why is the volcano erupting?" Right? (laughs) But now we say... 'Cause we didn't know, you know? We're just like, "I guess it's... the gods are mad," you know?

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:04:02

        Right.

    27. ZSZack Snyder1:04:02

        And s-... but now we have, th-... now the problem is like, "Why am I... (laughs) why do I feel helpless in the face of technology or whatever?"

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:04:10

        Right.

    29. ZSZack Snyder1:04:10

        You know? So we need an answer... we need an additional answer, and I think that's what... and that's what I've always... and I feel like genre has allowed me to make those comments, you know?

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:04:18

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 2:11:45