The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2129 - David Holthouse
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,109 words- 0:00 – 1:22
Reconnecting and the appeal of cult documentaries (Krishnas, Holy Hell)
- DHDavid Holthouse
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- NANarrator
The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) How are you-
- JRJoe Rogan
How are you, man? Good to see you again.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Good. Thanks for having me back, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. You made another awesome one, man. This, uh, the Krishnas one, oh my God. Whoo. There is something about these cult documentaries.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... whew. That one's heavy.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Do you remember the Hare Krishna devotees in the airports? 'Cause you're, like me, like you're old enough of that generation that you might remember the white robe, like-
- JRJoe Rogan
I remember-
- DHDavid Holthouse
... they'd have the flowers, and they'd be-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... selling books and shit in the airports.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't remem- know if I remember them at the airports. I remember them some places.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I def- have seen them, you know?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But, um, y- I just always thought they were just kooks, you know?
- DHDavid Holthouse
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's just... It's, it's interesting, you know, knowing what I know now about the '60s and, you know, what, what was done to sort of... t- to kind of, uh, crush the hippie movement.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, it's interesting to see that this was connected to, you know, the Beatles and peace and love, and then you see this sect, that this, this j- what was his name again? The-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Kirtan Ananda-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... was the guru that went-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, went-
- DHDavid Holthouse
... way wrong.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, went way wrong.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- 1:22 – 3:25
How Holthouse got the Peacock Krishna project and re-learned what ISKCON is
- JRJoe Rogan
But it, it is, uh... Well, let's just get into from the beginning. How did you get involved in this particular subject?
- DHDavid Holthouse
So there's a production company, Marwar Junction, and they had actually sold this show to Peacock, and they, uh, were looking for a director. So this is the first show that I've made or helped to make that I haven't been involved in the sort of conception, the story from the jump. So they had developed the story and sold it to Peacock, and they were shopping for a director, and they liked my work, and so they hired me to make it.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so did you have any experience with the Krishnas before this?
- DHDavid Holthouse
No. No. And I had a lo- you know, like a lot of people, I had a lot of misconceptions about them. Like I thought that there was a, a... that the Hare Krishna movement was invented in America in the 1960s. I just had it associated with the sort of the hippie movement, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
That's not the, that's not the truth of it. It is... uh, at all. It's like actually a spiritual tradition that, you know, dates back thousands of years, like far predates, uh, Christianity.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
It's based in these ancient spiritual texts called the Vedas.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
That, you know, the, the written version is, uh, like at least 3,500 years old, and the oral tradition goes back thousands of years beyond that. So, um, I learned a lot about, uh, you know, Krishna consciousness and the making of this. And this show is about a particularly dark chapter in the history of the movement in the '70s and '80s that I don't think is, uh, representative of the movement, like today. Like I think it's, it's a force for, for good in the world today, actually.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I think the principles behind it, if you pay attention to the, the main guru, w- was the older Johnson-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Prabhupada.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Prabhupada.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Prabhupada.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. My friend Duncan loves that guy.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what... The whole, uh, concept behind it sounds beautiful, you know? It's all just love and, you know, the... relinquishing your possessions and the hold that they have on you, and just-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... living this very peaceful, loving life, and not just forgiving your enemies but letting them into your home, and it's... All of it sounds great, but all it takes is one psycho.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And-
- 3:25 – 8:25
Prabhupada’s U.S. breakthrough, Beatles influence, and the risky succession plan
- DHDavid Holthouse
One psycho. Well, Prabhupada took a risk. I mean, so Prabhupada was a guru... So several gurus, Krishna consciousness gurus, had come over from India to the UK or to the US, you know, in the 1800s even and then through the first half of the 20th century and had no luck because their timing wasn't right or they weren't the right person, or both. But Prabhupada was the right dude at the right time. He showed up in Greenwich Village, New York City, 1965 and started preaching Krishna consciousness, and it just like, you know, took off like wildfire. And, uh, you know, like Allen Ginsberg got down with it, wasn't maybe a full-scaled devotee, but like he was hanging out with him. And... But Prabhupada was already an old dude when he showed up in the US. And so in 1977, he died. So that's 12 years. And by that time, Krishna consciousness, there were like Krishna temples all over the country and in the UK because George Harrison had converted.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right? That was one of his, like, strokes of brilliance, Prabhupada, is he like sent (laughs) a group of devotees to go camp out outside the Apple Records office and just like chant and dance until they basically got a meeting with the Beatles. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DHDavid Holthouse
And he was literally like, "Let's see if we can make the Beatles, you know, Krishnas."
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And, uh, with Harrison, it took, you know? And that song, My Sweet Lord, I mean, that's, that's what it's about. It's about Krishna consciousness.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
So... But when Prabhupada died in 1977, you know, he hadn't had a lot of time to build up successors, and most of the, most of the leaders of the movement were young, or most of the members of the movement were young. So he took a risk, and I don't think he had a choice, and he appointed 11 of his closest, longest time devotees, all men, to be the gurus that would carry the movement forward. And while you could say that it worked and that Krishna consciousness is still around and it's bigger than ever, uh, a few of those... You know, these are dudes, these are like dudes in their 20s, okay? That suddenly are being worshiped as direct conduits to the divine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
In other words, treated as gods on Earth.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And some of them were not spiritually prepared for that. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Would be a kind way to put it. And some of them went wrong, and one of them in particular, Kirtan Ananda, whose, you know, government name was Keith Ham, went really wrong.
- JRJoe Rogan
I like the term government name.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DHDavid Holthouse
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that is a thing that they always do, right? They give them spiritual names.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, you relinquish your, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Your original existence.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. You take a Krishna name.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's, uh, a place out here. You know, I've, I built a comedy club, and, um, before I got the spot that I have now on 6th Street, I bought a place called the One World Theatre. And the One World Theater was owned by a cult.And, um, I... It's a beautiful theater and I'd heard about it from my friend, Ron White, 'cause we would... I was telling him, you know, "I think we should open up a comedy club." And he said, "You should buy that theater. It was owned by a cult." And I was like, "That would be hilarious, by a theater that was owned by a cult." And there's a documentary on them called Holy Hell.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's the same sort of deal.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, I know that, I know that doc, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, so they start off... It seems wonderful in the beginning.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Everyone's doing yoga, they're hanging out together, cooking meals together, and dancing, and, and like... It seems like all cults, it goes sideways.
- 8:25 – 10:24
New Vrindaban in West Virginia: a beautiful spiritual site with a dark past
- DHDavid Holthouse
Well, even in the '60s and '70s, I don't think it's... It'd be fair to call Krishna consciousness a cult. But the way that this... So this guy, Kirtananda, one of the 11, you know, disciples that Prabhupada appointed to carry on the movement, he already had a commune, uh, up in the hills of West Virginia that's still there. It's called New Vrindavan, because the city of Vrindavan in India is the sort of mythical birthplace of Krishna.
- JRJoe Rogan
So that, that cult, that compound's still there?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Still there, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Cool.
- DHDavid Holthouse
But it's not a cult, it's not a cult, and it's like right... And I've been there twice, and like today again, it's like... It's a really, like, positive place with a great spiritual vibe. But when Kirtananda was in charge in the '70s and '80s, like, some really dark shit went on down there.
- JRJoe Rogan
How did they turn it around?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Well, like... (laughs) Well, h- they finally, like... His followers turned on him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
You know, and, and ISKCON, which is the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, which is sort of the formal name for the Hare Krishnas, what we call the Hare Krishnas, they actually like, you know, kicked the New Vrindavan out of the movement, um, for a few years, half a decade or so, and then like kind of gradually brought that, that compound, that commune... It's not a compound. That commune, uh, back in. But, uh, they had this fucking temple there, the Palace of Gold, like Prabhupada... The Palace of Gold that they were originally building for Prabha- Prabhupada to, to live in, but then he died before it was completed. But it's like this... It's like this Taj Mahal-esque structure that's in...
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's it.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
God, it's gorgeous.
- DHDavid Holthouse
That's, that's in the... That's in kind of the middle of nowhere in the, in the hills of West Virginia.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
I mean, there's just... You know, it's like, mmh... A couple of hours-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's crazy.
- DHDavid Holthouse
A couple of hours from Pittsburgh basically, and up in the mountains, and so...
- JRJoe Rogan
God, that's beautiful.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Look at the images.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And these are like untrained, uh, you know, disciples making this just based on like ancient texts that they studied carefully.
- JRJoe Rogan
So they just figured out how to do all this-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... artisanship?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's amazing.
- DHDavid Holthouse
It is. Yeah, it really is. It's, it's worth visiting, for sure. It's am-... It's, it's mind-blowing.
- JRJoe Rogan
I like how there's a big box of cash there.
- 10:24 – 12:32
How the commune isolated recruits and Kirtananda consolidated control
- DHDavid Holthouse
And so... But this place... I mean, even, even now it's like... It's, it's, it's... Well, for sure in the '60s, for sure in the '70s, it was cut off from the rest of the world.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
I mean, these young kids would join the Hare Krishna movement, and basically a lot of the fuck-ups in the movement would get sent to Kirtananda at New Vrindavan because he'd put him to work building the temple.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right? So if you like joined and you were like, you know, not fitting in for some reason, uh, a lot of times they'd buy you a one-way bus ticket to like Morgantown or Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and you'd wind up, up there, you know, in the hills under Kirtananda's tutelage, right? Which is-
- JRJoe Rogan
(clears throat)
- DHDavid Holthouse
Which is... And that... And it went... It went sideways in a hurry af- especially after Prabhupada died. He was already running New Vrindavan, like Prabhupada had visited it and approved of it. And actually, Kirtananda had gotten booted out of the Krishna movement because he kind of tried to take it over.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And at a certain point, like Prabhupada, you know, kicked him out and, (laughs) and Keith Hamm, Kirtananda, like mind-fucked this, this local sort of like philosopher dude that, that owned, uh, the land into, into s- into signing it over, promising to be like a non-denominational spiritual movement, that that's what he was doing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And as the guy put it... We interviewed his daughter and he said, you know, "As soon as the lease was signed, they put on bed sheets and started chanting," right? And so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... now you got the Hare Krishnas as, as, as your neighbors.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, um, it's... The documentary is really well done.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Thanks.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like... Just like Sasquatch, I mean, you, you do some awesome stuff, but it's... It... It's so fascinating to watch these, uh, alternative sort of movements get co-opted and how that can happen by the wrong sort of charismatic...... Psycho.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that's this, Kir- how do you say his name? Kirtanandan?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Kir- Kirten- Kirtidanan- Kirtanan- Kirtananda.
- JRJoe Rogan
Kir- Kir- Kirtanandan.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Kirtananda. Kirtananda.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, Kirtanandan.
- DHDavid Holthouse
It's tricky, man. Dude, dealing with all these Christian names-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... and then making this documentary was like, you know... (soft music playing)
- JRJoe Rogan
Did- how much research did you have to do about the movement and getting into it and sort of-
- 12:32 – 16:03
On-the-ground research in India: Vrindavan’s monkey ‘ransom’ economy
- DHDavid Holthouse
Quite a bit. You know, before you sit down and start doing interviews with devotees, like, you want to know at least a little bit about what you're talking about, you know. And I went to, um, we filmed in Vrindavan in India. That's how the project, that's how I started the project. Like, I had signed on, I signed onto the director gig, and like two weeks later I was in India. Uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. What was that like? Hey, Jim, can we get the coffee in here?
- NANarrator
Oh, sure.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Well, one thing about Vrindavan, India is the fucking monkeys, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- DHDavid Holthouse
There are these monkeys (laughs) that will steal your shit. And it's a whole racket, right? The monkeys will-
- JRJoe Rogan
You have to give them something back.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. And of course we're like, we're like knocking around with bags full of lenses and camera gear and audio gear and stuff. And so we're a target rich (laughs) , you know, posse for these monkeys. But they'll get your sunglasses, your phone, whatever if you're not careful, and then they like sort of skitter up a drainpipe or a tree. And you got to buy these like frozen mango packs from the street vendors and like throw them up to the monkeys and the monkeys will drop your shit back down to you then. (laughs) I'm convinced that the street vendors are in on it, right? That it's like this-
- JRJoe Rogan
They probably are. Thank you.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Yeah. So...
- JRJoe Rogan
They probably are.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Well, at the very least, it's, it's so strange that the monkeys know that you, you can barter.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. They learned.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, that you can make a deal.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. The legend is, is that hundreds of years ago, uh, this guy that was like ... he brought a circus to Vrindavan and the monkeys came with him and they were trained to be pickpockets. And then they just kind of stayed behind, but I don't know if that's true or not. But that's the local legend, is that ... but there, there's hundreds of them, thousands of them, man. I mean, they are everywhere. You gotta, you gotta watch, you gotta be... constantly have your head on a swivel because they are so quick.
- JRJoe Rogan
And what do they live off of? Do they just live off of what the people give them?
- DHDavid Holthouse
I don't know. They probably scavenge but also like, they do get a lot of like, you know, mango treats (laughs) from stealing shit. Because the Balarama Mandir, which is like the, the head Hare Krishna temple is, is in Vrindavan, India. And so devotees from all over the world go there like as spiritual tourists, basically. And so, you know, monkeys steal shit from them. Or any other, you know, it, the, could... there's a lot of Krishna devotees from all over India too that aren't necessarily "Hare Krishnas" but like follow the Hindu deity Krishna.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
So they come to... it's, it's like a, you know, there's a lot of spiritual pilgrims to this city, all right? There's a lot of spiritual tourism there. And so the monkeys have a lot of targets.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so when they steal your stuff, you have to throw it to them?
- DHDavid Holthouse
You gotta buy something and then throw it up to them. They'll... and they... and then they will relinquish it. Sometimes they'll be like, "Uh, nope, nope. That's, that's a cell phone. That's a three mango pack deal, dude."
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DHDavid Holthouse
They won't... you know, they'll be like, "Oh, thanks." And they'll like go like they're gonna drop it too. They'll be like, "Oh, how about I drop it in the sewer? Oh, you don't want that? Mango pack." So they-
- JRJoe Rogan
They point at the mangos?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yes. (laughs) Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
So eventually you, you throw them enough treats and they'll like th- ... and they're, and they're these kids too that if they see that a monkey has stolen something, they'll come over and they'll be like, "For a few ru- ... " Basically it's like, "For a few rupees, I'll handle this deal for you." And then they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... they climb up the tree or the drainpipe and they do a direct hand-to-hand exchange.
- 16:03 – 17:33
Murders tied to Kirtananda and the evidence trail (ashes, detectives, hidden bodies)
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but we were there to, um, to film... there's, there was this, this ceremony, uh, these two, these two brothers whose father... his, um, name was Chakradhar. His, his Christian name, his, uh, government name was Charles St. Dennis. He's also named, known as Chaka in the movement. And his sons were doing this really ancient ritual to sort of release the soul of someone who's been murdered. And so they had their father's ashes, which he was murdered, you know, decades ago at New Vrindavan by... on orders from Kirtananda because he was challenging Kirtananda's authority.
- JRJoe Rogan
Re- so Kirtananda had people murdered too?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
More than one?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
How-
- DHDavid Holthouse
I think there's probably quite a few bodies up in the hills on that-
- JRJoe Rogan
That people just don't know about?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. One of the, one of the principal sources for the, um, for the documentary is a guy who's a retired homicide cop named Thomas Westfall who was a local... just a local cop, uh, in West Virginia when the, when the Krishnas set up shop at the New Vrindavan commune. And so he started keeping a close eye on them early and sort of saw Kirtananda's rise to power and, uh, you know, he believes that there's at least a handful more victims out there whose bodies haven't been found.
- JRJoe Rogan
(exhales)
- DHDavid Holthouse
'Cause it's really remote country. I mean, I don't want to stress that. It's really cold in the winter. There's a lot of snow.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
You know, and yet to this day it's, it's sort of... it's, it's a difficult place to get to.
- 17:33 – 25:18
Money schemes, demented leadership, and systemic child abuse across temples
- JRJoe Rogan
And so this guy, when he first started running this temple, this, this area, when did it go... how long did it take before it went sideways?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Well, I think it was... uh, the question with Kirtananda or Keith Ham is always like, was he bent before, you know, he became a Krishna? Or was it like, did the power get to him? And I think it's both, you know. I think, I think he had a psychological disposition towards being a despot, if you will.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And then once Prabhupada was gone and he wa- ... and Kirtananda along with 10 of his compatriots was appointed a guru, you know, um, and had that sort of power, I think at that point it's... and combined with like all the money. I mean, he was (laughs) ... he was, um... he had this guy that was a g- ... he was a... Kirtananda was a genius at running schemes and scams to make money. He would dispatch like the hottest...... young female Krishna devotees to, like, stock car races and rock concerts and stuff to, like, raise money for whatever. They just make it up. The starving children of India, or they just make up charities. And they'd flirt with dudes, you know, especially at rock concerts, guys that are, like, high, and get them to give 'em cash. A dollar here, five bucks here, ten bucks there. They'd work at airports too, but, um... And they just brought in, literally, like, garbage bags full of cash, you know, every week.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And they, and th- and, and he trained them to, to deposit it in $9,900 increments.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it doesn't show up.
- DHDavid Holthouse
To avoid the reporting.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow. So he was... H- e- he looks crazy.
- DHDavid Holthouse
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
That's what's interesting. Isn't it interesting that, like, crazy people look crazy? And I always, I always try to say, "Okay, is this because you know he's crazy or do you see something?" It's hard to tell. But he doesn't seem enlightened.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like you look at him, he, he looks like a guy who's a little unhinged. And I've met people like that, unhinged. And I've met people like that in, like, the psychedelics movement. And there's a, there's a few of these movements that are so open and basically anybody can become a part of it. You know, the concept behind it is, you know, "We're all seeking enlightenment. We're all..." But then you'll see someone who gets in there and you're like, "What is... This guy's schizophrenic or something."
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Like there's something going on here."
- DHDavid Holthouse
Especially if you look at photos of Kirtanananda over the decades.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Like he just gets more and more and more demented-looking.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that has to probably be the power, right?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They're washing his feet and worshiping him.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, and he was molesting kids there, you know, too.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, well that's-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Like he was, he was a total pedophile.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Do you think-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Sick fuck. Yeah.
- 25:18 – 35:29
Personal detour: survivor shame, Rogan’s library story, and the reality of pedophilia
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. You know, I ... Talking about the pedophilia stuff, uh, I just need to take this on a frrt and detour because there's something I wanted to say last time I was on your show, which is that I am convinced that you saved at least one kid's life with something that you said the last time I was on, which is that we were talking about my own experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual assault. And you told a story about how when you were a kid, you were in a library, and this, like, sick fuck pedophile guy, like, was trying to get you out of the library.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And a librarian stepped in and basically saved you from this guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Do I have that r- do I have that correct?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Okay. The reason that I think you saved at least one kid's life is this. Because ... And again, speaking from firsthand experience. As a male survivor, especially of childhood sexual assault, you, you think like, "How could I have let that happen to me? Why didn't I defend myself? Why didn't I fight the guy off?" You know? Even though intellectually you look at a seven, eight, nine-year-old boy, you're like, "You got no chance against a grown man." Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- DHDavid Holthouse
But for, you know, Joe Rogan to say, like, "A librarian saved me from this happening to me," right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Because you're a tough guy. Okay? You're perceived as a tough guy. I think rightly so.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now. (laughs)
- DHDavid Holthouse
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Not when I was-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right. Now.
- JRJoe Rogan
7 or 8 or however old I was at the time.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right, right, right, right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
But, but, but I, I, I hope I'm articulating my point, which is that, you know, guys-
- JRJoe Rogan
It can happen to anyone.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. And, and in for a guy that's like suffering that and thinking like, "Why didn't ..." You know, it just helps when, when somebody in a position like yourself, you know, says like, "Hey, you know, could have happened to me."
- JRJoe Rogan
Easily.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It almost did. I mean, I was on my way out the door.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. It could have ... If that librarian hadn't called out my name. I think about that all the time. You know, what would have happened to me? Uh, how would it ... Who I would have become? You know. It's, um, it's one of the, the darkest forces in, in the world. Like, this ... And I don't understand why it's so prevalent. I just ... Like ... And I think ... You know, I've equated it to vampires. That it seems like one of the things that happens to some of the people that get molested is they wind up doing it to others.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And-
- 35:29 – 40:14
Kirtananda’s enforcer, the ‘Winnebago incident,’ and how the case finally cracked
- DHDavid Holthouse
Well, one of Kirt- Kirtananda's enforcer and hitman was this guy named Thomas Drescher, uh, whose Christian name was Teerta, and he, like, drove the bus. Uh, there, there was a school bus that would not... He wasn't, it wasn't driving kids around, but th- they're, they, they bought a school bus to kind of take people from one part of the, you know, commune to another or whatever. But really while he was there, and he was one of the dudes that, like, joined the k-... He, he was in Vietnam, Vietnam combat vet. Um, I think he saw hardcore combat in Vietnam, came back bent in the head.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Was trying to find the answers, trying to find help probably for PTSD-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Found the Hare Krishnas, joined, but the first temple or two that he was at, they were like, "Hmm, something a little off about this guy, (laughs) so let's send him to Kirtananda."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Kirtananda met this dude and was like, "Oh, I got a purpose for you, brother."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DHDavid Holthouse
"You know, you're now enforcer number one." And so if you fucked up, if, like, you weren't supposed to have a television, or if you broke the rules or you defied Kirtananda in any way, if you got, if you got some money from your family and you didn't kick it to him, Teerta came and paid you a visit.... okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And when an- and when Kirtanana- when Kirtanana started whacking dudes, basically, it was Tirta that did it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- DHDavid Holthouse
You know, he just, (laughs) he'd just shoot you and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. He was, he was, he was smart. He, he buried, uh, Charles St. Dennis's body. He diverted a little creek and, by damming it up, and then buried the body and then took away the dam. So the whole ti- so the, the, the co- the homicide cop, Thomas Westfall, he was like, "I was looking for that body everywhere and never thought to look under the, the little river," you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did they bring cadaver dogs to try to search for him?
- DHDavid Holthouse
I don't think they brought dogs. Eventually, like, what happened was... and the reason that Kirtanana, why they finally got him, is that Tirta flipped on him. The- now, they arrested Tirta- Thomas Drescher for murder, because there was another devotee that, uh, got killed in Los Angeles that was also sort of outing Kirtananda and his, you know, corruption and whatnot. And, um, so they got Drescher and once he was in prison, like, Kirtananda held this ceremony and, like, appointed him to this, like, high status within Krishna consciousness, and of course that was like a way to try and keep him quiet, right? And he remained a believer, but then there was this incident known as the Winnebago incident where Kirtananda, there's this- was riding in a Winnebago with this, like, I think it was a little boy from, like, Pakistan or India, and the, like, curtains jostled open and he was seen in full view by multiple witnesses, like, sodomizing this kid. And, like, too many people saw it to cover it up, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And word got to Thomas Drescher in prison that this had happened, and he heard from enough people who he trusted and believed that it- that this was true, that he immediately flipped on Kirtananda and said like, "Yep, he paid me and ordered me to kill these guys, and here's where you can find the bodies."
- JRJoe Rogan
So, he didn't know that Kirtananda-
- DHDavid Holthouse
He didn't believe it.
- JRJoe Rogan
... he didn't believe it?
- DHDavid Holthouse
He was a true believer, you know. He didn't want to believe it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
So, it was only when he was... you know, he didn't firsthand witness it himself, but it was only when he was faced with, like, multiple people who he trusted who were telling him, "We saw this. It's true." You know? And then to his credit (laughs) , I think he, he, uh, he immediately flipped. You know, we tried to, we tried to do an interview with him, but, um, he, uh... we couldn't get into the prison to get him to go on camera, so we do, in the show, we do have audio interview-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... excerpts-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... you know, with Drescher.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow! The- one of the saddest things about Holy Hell is they talk to some of the devotees that have left and now they're lost because they had l- essentially they, they had left 20 years of their life with this guy and, and now here they were 50, and like this one lady was like a dog walker now.
- 40:14 – 49:48
DMT, karma, reincarnation, and the ‘user manual for the cosmos’
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right. And I just- I, I like- not only like, I, I, I, I buy into the idea of karma and reincarnation. That, that reads as true. That feels true to me.
- JRJoe Rogan
In reincarnation, yeah?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What, what, what reads as true? What part reads as true?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Um, well... (laughs) Uh, then we get into DMT, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DHDavid Holthouse
All right? I, I tried DMT. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
When did you do that?
- DHDavid Holthouse
It was in 2013. I'm a one and done DMT guy. Don't need to do it again.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Okay? So, here's my D- my DMT story, is that in 1999 I was super into the rave scene. And I was in London at this three-day rave called The Warp and it was the kind of party where it was like, someone would ask you the time, you'd be like, "It's 9:30." And they'd be like, "A.M. or P.M.," you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DHDavid Holthouse
(laughs) And it was a great party, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DHDavid Holthouse
Three days, near the Tower of London, literally underground. An underground party literally underground. They had DJ rooms and dance rooms, but they also had these, uh, live performance rooms and I saw this performance artist called The Techno Pagan Octopus Messiah, okay?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- DHDavid Holthouse
And he was, he was describing his DMT experience and I hadn't heard about DMT and then... and by the way, his, his stuff is fantastic. I think he's, he's the- he's come the closest of anybody except Terence McKenna in actually, like, capturing what the DMT experience is, as a writer.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Outside, his, uh, perform- well, the room where he's performing, there's this tent that just said, "Deep, Deep Meditation Therapy." And I was like, "Oh, now I know what that means," right? And I watched people doing DMT and I was like, "Uh..." I was already rolled in on three or four hits of MDMA, so I was like, "Well, not tonight. But if it ever comes my way, I'm gonna do it. I made myself a promise that night. I'm not gonna seek this out, but if it ever comes my way." And then it did, and, um, in 2014 I just went to see a buddy of mine in Brooklyn. I was working on a documentary out there and he was like, "You oughta try this." I was like, "Okay. Before I change my mind. Let's do this." And 15 minutes later, I believed in reincarnation. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
I believed in karma and reincarnation, so I- I- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Why?
- DHDavid Holthouse
I felt a lot, uh, better about death, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I felt a lot better about death too after I did it.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Uh, well-
- JRJoe Rogan
But what-
- DHDavid Holthouse
... what my experience was that I got, you know, a short glimpse, that's sort of a user manual for the cosmos. And in there was the knowledge that e-... reincarnation is real, that the Buddhists have it right, that after you die, you go to the bardo for 49 days. Your soul is out there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- 49:48 – 1:00:10
Stoned Ape theory project and the coming wave of AI-animated documentaries
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. You know this podcast Psychedelic Salon?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure. I had that guy on, Lorenzo.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, Lorenzo, Lorenzo-
- JRJoe Rogan
Back in the day.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... Lorenzo Heggarty.
- JRJoe Rogan
He's great.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Yeah, he is. I've res- I recently got to know him, and he asked me to give you a message, because I guess two or three months ago, you were musing about whether or not he was still alive, because he hadn't posted any new episodes recently.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
He is still alive. That's his message, Lorenzo's message.
- JRJoe Rogan
All right.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And after he heard that you'd raised that question, he's been posting quite a few-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, that's great.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, so Lorenzo-
- JRJoe Rogan
Can you connect me to him?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah, absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
Please.
- DHDavid Holthouse
So Lorenzo-
- JRJoe Rogan
He's a great guy.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Lorenzo and I and the aforementioned Techno Pagan Octopus Messiah are in the process of collaborating with some, uh, AI animation artists on a documentary about the stoned ape theory.
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
I think it's gonna be dope, really great.
- JRJoe Rogan
Have you seen Dennis McKenna's, uh-
- DHDavid Holthouse
I have.
- JRJoe Rogan
... assessment of it?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
He broke it down on the podcast, where he was explaining to me the, the actual mechanisms that would be involved in psilocybin accelerating the, the, the-
- 1:00:10 – 1:03:45
Ukraine trip, father’s death, and investigating corruption amid war
- DHDavid Holthouse
... he, he, uh, he died like two weeks ago while I was in Ukraine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
(clears throat) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What were you doing in Ukraine?
- DHDavid Holthouse
I was, uh, reporting. I was working. I wasn't filming, but I was, uh, doing some research. And I was in a... I was in a war zone. I mean, the whole fucking country's a war zone (laughs) , but I was in a war zone where, like, communications were dicey at best. And I got a text message from my wife on Signal, and it was like, "Your dad's heart valve is failing rapidly. He's in the hospital. He's probably got like 48 hours to live." And the airspace over Ukraine's closed, so there's no way that I could get from where I was in Ukraine to Anchorage, Alaska to be with him. And so, I was just sending, like, text messages on Signal to the nurses (laughs) that were... and they were reading them to him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Yeah. And then I was able to record one voice memo, like right as he was going, 'cause the last sense, uh, to go when you're dying is sense of hearing.... and they-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... they played him like a, like a message from me.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- DHDavid Holthouse
So... But to answer your question, (laughs) but what was I doing in Ukraine? Um, (sighs) looking l- it's, it... I'm looking into a possible documentary that, that'd be set against the backdrop of the current war, but that would be more about like what is actually the true nature of corruption in Ukraine (laughs) and what has it been, and wha- what was it in the '90s, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
And wha- what is it today, and like how has the US State Department kind of fucked up again (laughs) in the same way that we did in Vietnam and every war like Vietnam, Afghanistan-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
... Iraq by backing the wrong horses, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, we've never not fucked up.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's never been one, wh- whether it's Libya or Afghanistan, Iraq. There's not one where you could point to like, "We nailed that one."
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's not one.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's not one.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, you know, when there was so much resistance to the concept that Ukraine was corrupt when we first started backing them, you know, that was what was fascinating to me because it was always talked about how corrupt Ukraine was. It was always talked about, and then all of a sudden this was, there was, this was a verboten topic. Like, no, Russia is the aggressor and the invader, and Ukraine are, they're angels. And you're like, "W- wait a minute." You know, there's... This is not... That's not reality, like...
- DHDavid Holthouse
Well, it's also that we would, th-the US government would be like, okay, y- we would, we would sort of designate who was corrupt and who wasn't. I mean, look, the US went through its own sort of oligarchy, like robber baron phase, you know, in the late 1800s. That was, like, after we'd been a democracy for 100 years. It's not... Unfortunately, (laughs) it's kind of a step on the evolution of demo- free democracies to have this phase where you're like, you know, things are super corrupt. Like, (laughs) I, I, uh, I, I spent some time at a, at a Orthodox, uh, monastery in Ukraine last month, and I asked the sort of head of the monastery like, "What would you have to do to get rid of corruption in, in this country?" He's like, "Well, I'm a man of God." You know, he's speaking through an interpreter. He's like, "I'm a man of God, so I'm not advocating this. But what you could do is you could take..." Because the main problem in Ukraine right now, as I understand it, is the judicial system. They have what they, they call telephone law, which is basically like before a judge makes a ruling, he gets a phone call telling him which way to rule.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, Jesus.
- DHDavid Holthouse
You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 1:03:45 – 1:33:33
From skepticism to hawk: why Holthouse thinks supporting Ukraine is necessary
- DHDavid Holthouse
But I'll tell you, my time in, in, in Ukraine really changed my perspective on that war. And I came back a real sort of hawk thinking that we should fully support Ukraine-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- DHDavid Holthouse
... in, in the war. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Why's that?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Um, part of it was just being with the people who the Ukraine... I just like Ukrainians (laughs) you know, in a way that I've been to other former Soviet bloc countries. And it's kind of like, I won't name any of them, but I just feel like, "Uh, I'm not sure you guys are really down with the freedom and democracy thing." You know? Um, it seems like you've been s- (laughs) you were subjugated for a while and, and you don't... I just didn't get the same vibe. Like, I think the Ukrainians are legitimately freedom-loving people, okay? That have been like under the thumb of corrupt leadership for decades now.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
But, um, to just... Part of it was, it was something very enthralling about being in a place where everyone was so unified. Like, this country under attack, being invaded by a hostile force. Now, it's usually the Ukrainians who have stayed behind, okay? But there's still a lot of them. I mean... And, um, just that in... coming from America where everything is so splintered and divided now, and to be in a place where everyone is so on the same page, there's something very attractive about that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that is what happens when you get invaded. Do you remember what it was like in America after 9/11?
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right after 9/11, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was the most united-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
... this country has ever been.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's a horrible thing to say-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... because it's not what you ever want to happen again to wake everybody up. But it was the thing that was required to make people put American flags on their cars. And it was, in a lot of wa- I mean, it was a horrible tragedy, but in a lot of ways, the reaction to it was very beautiful. There was so many people that were so... I was in New York City like just a few weeks or a few months after 9/11, and everybody was friendly.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was crazy.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was like everybody was just so blown away by the experience of being attacked, and so just shaken out of it, and so aware of how fortunate they were to not be one of those people who died, and that we are legitimately all together, and that there are forces out there that are evil-
- DHDavid Holthouse
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and that we have to stay united. And I hate to think that that's what's required to wake people up from this division. But I always wonder, like, I wonder if maybe the division that we have in this country is because of the fact that we're never attacked, and because of the fact that we, we, we only experienced a few of the Pearl Harbor, 9/11. There's only a few of these moments where we've had to wake up.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Yeah. Yeah. The Aleutian Islands actually in Alaska were, were, were attacked and occupied by Japanese forces in World War II.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, really?
- DHDavid Holthouse
A little-known fact, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, yeah.
- DHDavid Holthouse
That was actually American territory.
- JRJoe Rogan
I didn't know that.
- DHDavid Holthouse
Um, but, but I mean, we, we fucking... Man, I mean, the Ukrainians, they, they had nuclear weapons, and in 1994, (laughs) the quote unquote "West," the US and the UK, basically convinced them, you know, to give up their nukes-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
Episode duration: 2:30:00
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