Joe Rogan Experience #2130 - Coleman Hughes

1. 0:00 – 4:59

   Coleman Hughes returns: new book launch and the viral 'The View' clash

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Hey, what up?

   4. CHColeman Hughes0:13

      All right.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:13

      What's up, Coleman? Good to see you.

   6. CHColeman Hughes0:14

      I'm good, man. Good to see you again.

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      What's crackin'?

   8. CHColeman Hughes0:16

      Well, I'm good, you know.

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      You great. You got a new book.

   10. CHColeman Hughes0:19

       Got a new book, End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America.

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:25

       Yeah, I saw you on The View.

   12. CHColeman Hughes0:26

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       (laughs)

   14. CHColeman Hughes0:27

       Yeah, so that, that's been overwhelming my past couple days.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       Yeah.

   16. CHColeman Hughes0:31

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:31

       Is that annoying?

   18. CHColeman Hughes0:32

       No.

   19. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       No?

   20. CHColeman Hughes0:33

       No, no, I mean, it's just, when I was on there, I, I, I really had no idea how it was gonna land with the audience, so I just went in there, did my thing. Uh, I had no idea what to expect. I didn't know who Sunny Hostin was. I actually still really don't know. So I wasn't expecting, necessarily, for her to kind of try to ambush me in that way and, and, uh, attack my character in that way, and I responded to it in the moment, as I do, and I didn't expect it to go as viral as it did, but, uh, I think it pro- arguably went more viral than anything I've ever done. It's hard for me to totally tell, but I've just got people messaging me almost nonstop for, like, four days afterwards.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:13

       Well, it is the show that people love to hate. (laughs)

   22. CHColeman Hughes1:15

       Yes, that's true. That's true.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       They, they get so much hate-watching-

   24. CHColeman Hughes1:19

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:20

       ... and hate, hate-watching viral clips of them saying ridiculous things. I mean-

   26. CHColeman Hughes1:24

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:24

       ... it is, it is a, uh, a rabies-infested henhouse. (laughs)

   28. CHColeman Hughes1:29

       And, and at the same time, it seemed like the most interesting part was their audience seemed to be on my side.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:34

       Yes. Yes.

   30. CHColeman Hughes1:35

       And that's their audience.
2. 4:59 – 9:32

   Colorblindness clarified: race awareness vs race-based public policy

   1. CHColeman Hughes4:59

      So we had eight minutes, and America's approach, approach to race, pretty big topic, pretty important topic.

   2. JRJoe Rogan5:08

      I think the way you-

   3. CHColeman Hughes5:08

      So-

   4. JRJoe Rogan5:09

      G- g- just before you start.

   5. CHColeman Hughes5:10

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan5:10

      I think the way you described it is brilliant and the way we should all look at it.

   7. CHColeman Hughes5:14

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan5:15

      Of course you're gonna see race.

   9. CHColeman Hughes5:17

      Yes.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:17

       The, the idea of being colorblind is ridiculous.

   11. CHColeman Hughes5:19

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:19

       But treat everybody that they're just human beings.

   13. CHColeman Hughes5:21

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       Everybody's just individuals.

   15. CHColeman Hughes5:23

       That's right.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:23

       That's, that's what we should all hope for.

   17. CHColeman Hughes5:25

       That's right. Yeah. There, there's been this common phrase, uh, "I don't see race," that's equated with colorblindness, and-

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:31

       Yeah.

   19. CHColeman Hughes5:31

       ... point of my book is I want to say, get rid of that. Of course we see race, certainly in America, in the West. You could argue about whether children really see race, but past a certain point, we see race. Point is not to pretend you don't see it. It's to say, you know, "You're a white guy. I'm a Black and Hispanic guy. We notice that. We're not gonna pretend it's not there. But whenever it matters, I'm gonna try to treat you like an individual based on your personal qualities, and we're gonna ask the government to do the same." Get race out of public policy. If you want to help disadvantaged people, do that on the basis of class.

   20. JRJoe Rogan6:06

       100%. And understand that when you see these incentives that are put into corporations, these are methods of control, and that's what's going on when you see things like DEI ini- it's not, uh, you're not really making the world a better place.

   21. CHColeman Hughes6:22

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan6:22

       You're just allowing these financial institutions to enact control over corporations.

   23. CHColeman Hughes6:29

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan6:29

       And it's a really shifty, weird way they're doing it, by making it seem like they're trying to make the world a better, more equal place. And then there's some people who are good intentioned, but, um, have very narrow, narrow perspective and a very limited amount of information that they're operating under, that will try to pretend that these things are overall good, are net positive.

   25. CHColeman Hughes6:52

       Right. And, uh, S- Sonny Hostin may be one of those people. But, you know, so we had eight minutes to deal with this topic on one of the biggest platforms in the country, and especially an audience that isn't my typical audience. I- if anything, the Views audience is really who needs to hear my message the most. And Sonny decided to take up a few minutes of that precious eight minutes and attack me as a, someone who's been co-opted by the right and someone who's a charlatan.

   26. JRJoe Rogan7:19

       Hmm.

   27. CHColeman Hughes7:20

       And, uh-

   28. JRJoe Rogan7:21

       Did, did she use the term charlatan?

   29. CHColeman Hughes7:22

       She did, and it's funny, it's funny 'cause I di- actually didn't notice it in real time. It kind of went in one ear and out the other. But, uh-

   30. JRJoe Rogan7:29

       How did she say it? Do you remember? What did-
3. 9:32 – 11:32

   Media formats, censorship fears, and 'threat to democracy' rhetoric

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:32

      And the problem is, that's not what people want to do. What they want to do is engage in argument and try to win.

   2. CHColeman Hughes9:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan9:39

      And it's not really about having an open mind and listening to what this person has to say and trying to figure out whether or not it resonates with you. Instead, they're just trying to win, and trying to win in this weird soundbite-y way. You know, those platforms, whether it's, uh, the View or any of the, number of these panel platforms are so inherently flawed just in the s- just the way it's formatted. You only have a small amount of time, you have all these people talking, and, you know, it's just a, it, they, they can't compete with internet shows, because internet shows are free.

   4. CHColeman Hughes10:21

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:21

      It's l- it's just, uh, and I don't mean free like you don't have to pay for it. I mean free like they're free to talk about anything. There's not a producer in your ear.

   6. CHColeman Hughes10:28

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:28

      There's not someone saying, "We have to cut to commercial." There's not, um, a, you know, executive meetings before talking about an agenda-

   8. CHColeman Hughes10:36

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:36

      ... that you would like to, like this, "We have to hammer him on this."

   10. CHColeman Hughes10:39

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:39

       "And this is, this is really important with the election coming up, and this and that."

   12. CHColeman Hughes10:42

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:42

       And I'm like, god, the el- th- the whole election coming up thing freaks me out, 'cause I think everybody's in this weird, like, pre-battle anxiety stage. You know? And they, everything is life or death-

   14. CHColeman Hughes10:57

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan10:57

       ... and this goddamn phrase that gets tossed around every five minutes, it's just a threat to democracy. Everything is a threat to democracy, except things that actually probably are a threat to democracy.

   16. CHColeman Hughes11:10

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:10

       You see people talking about the threats to democracy and they ignore intelligence communities censoring social media.

   18. CHColeman Hughes11:19

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:19

       Which should be terrifying to people.

   20. CHColeman Hughes11:21

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:21

       It should be terrifying to people because this could happen on the left, on the right, it could happen for a number of reasons. It could happen for reasons that would be terrible for your life.

4. 11:32 – 15:13

   2024 choices and leadership quality: Trump vs Biden, RFK, and governing limits

   1. CHColeman Hughes11:32

      Yeah. Uh, RFK was on CNN, I, I think yesterday. And he said something that I, I think I've said before in, privately and, and I feel, which is that I think America would survive four more years of Trump or four more years of Biden.

   2. JRJoe Rogan11:45

      Yes.

   3. CHColeman Hughes11:45

      Truthfully, I think America and the republic is strong enough to survive either. Uh, neither one of them is a very good option, in my view. I think we're given two very bad options. But I also think, don't move to Canada, I think we're gonna be okay.

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:00

      Don't move to Canada. Canada's even worse.

   5. CHColeman Hughes12:02

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:02

      Canada's a mess.

   7. CHColeman Hughes12:04

      Um, but people don't like that opinion because they...I think they enjoy, we enjoy the existential stakes-

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:11

      Yes.

   9. CHColeman Hughes12:11

      ... of, of, of politics, even if it might not be there every time.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:15

       Yeah, I agree.

   11. CHColeman Hughes12:16

       Now, I disagreed... Back in 2015, 2016, when I was hearing how Trump was speaking on, uh, uh, uh, you know, Mu- Muslims on the registry, all this kind of stuff, I was one of the people that was worried he would be a fascist, truthfully. But then what happened is we had four years of governance from him where he basically governed like a typical Republican, and in some ways even, uh, had some policies that were to the left of what Republicans would do. For instance, on, on criminal justice reform, he was very progressive. He made, um, uh, funding for Black colleges and universities permanent, which if Obama had done either of those things, he would have been criticized as playing left-wing identity politics.

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:57

       Right.

   13. CHColeman Hughes12:58

       And so, uh, I, I, I slowly realized that there is a pretty big distance between what Trump says and what he does. I don't understand that fact about him, but it... I think it is a fact about him. And so that's why I, I don't feel alarmist the way I did when I voted for Hillary in, uh, in, in 2016, really voted against Trump. Uh, now that being said, Trump is a wild guy and is difficult to predict. I don't think he's someone you want behind the wheel, uh, in a, in a crisis time. Uh, and then on the other hand, we have Biden who, who has clear evidence of, of cognitive decline, um, vying for the, what's supposed to be the most important and challenging job in the world, certainly in the country, and people essentially claiming that it doesn't matter that he has obvious cognitive decline.

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:49

       Which is hilarious.

   15. CHColeman Hughes13:50

       I mean-

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:50

       Not only that, but gaslighting you.

   17. CHColeman Hughes13:52

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan13:52

       Saying that that's his superpower. Did you see that article?

   19. CHColeman Hughes13:54

       No, I didn't.

   20. JRJoe Rogan13:55

       That Biden's age is his superpower. Seth MacFarlane retweeted it. "I, I agree. I couldn't have stated this any better myself." Like, what are you talking about?

   21. CHColeman Hughes14:03

       No, it doesn't-

   22. JRJoe Rogan14:03

       What are you talking about?

   23. CHColeman Hughes14:03

       It doesn't make... One way I, I, I've thought about it is, uh, there's so much BS in politics. One of the great things about the market is that it's honest. Because if you lie, you lose money. So if you look at when, when lots of money is on the line, who do people want leading their organizations? Look at the NBA, look at the MLB. Who do people get as head coaches? Usually people in their 50s is the median age.

   24. JRJoe Rogan14:26

       Yeah.

   25. CHColeman Hughes14:26

       Because you've been around long enough that you've made a lot of dumb mistakes that 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds make, and you've learned those things that you can only learn with age. But, y- you know, in your 50s, you're still... You, you've still got the vast majority of your cognitive power there and your energy, if you're healthy, that is.

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:45

       Yeah.

   27. CHColeman Hughes14:45

       So that's really the sweet spot. We, we want a president somewhere in our 50s.

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:49

       Yeah.

   29. CHColeman Hughes14:50

       We, we don't want a, we don't want a Biden.

   30. JRJoe Rogan14:51

       No, we want someone with life experience and hopefully someone that doesn't exist solely in politics, like someone who hasn't become... their roots haven't, like, been deeply entrenched in the system.
5. 15:13 – 27:20

   Border politics and the incentives behind immigration inaction

   1. JRJoe Rogan15:13

      ... the way money is allocated, and the way funding is done, the way bills are passed, and... which is a, a giant issue, like when they sandwich these 2,000-page bills with a bunch of stuff-

   2. CHColeman Hughes15:24

      Yeah, it makes no sense to me.

   3. JRJoe Rogan15:25

      ... that has n- nothing to do with... It should be illegal. It shouldn't be legal to have a bill about what's, you know, for a popular topic, the border issue, the border crisis-

   4. CHColeman Hughes15:34

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:34

      ... and in, in embed in that funding for Ukraine. Like, what...

   6. CHColeman Hughes15:38

      Yeah, it doesn't make any sense-

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:39

      It has nothing to do with it.

   8. CHColeman Hughes15:40

      ... to couple those issues. Yeah, I mean, a f- few months ago. So basically, you've had the Biden administration ignoring the border issue for several years, because they want it to signal sort of how non-Trump they were, right? And the border is Trump's issue. So Biden comes in, he says, "We're gonna undo everything Trump did with the border," even though a lot of those policies are actually widely supported and, and, uh, and, and smart. So they undo everything. The migrant crisis goes to hell in the past two or three years, even now infiltrating cities like Chicago, New York, everywhere. And then you have, uh, Biden finally gets serious about the border a couple months ago with the, with the border bill. And Trump gives the signal essentially that it's, that it's not a good bill, even though it really... i- it was a pretty decent bill. And certainly in an emergency, you want to start, stop the bleeding. Then Trump signals, uh, that the bill isn't good enough and, and Republicans kill it essentially. So I think both sides have tried to spin this, right? The, the Democrat spin has been, "Look, the Republicans sh- destroyed that bill. They don't even care about immigration. The whole thing's their fault." Of course, what's wrong with that is the reason it's this bad is because Democrats have been ignoring the issue fully for two, three years.

   9. JRJoe Rogan17:01

      Why do you think that is? Like, does anybody have anything to gain by letting migrants into the country? You know, Tim Dillon, uh, says that he thinks that it's cheap labor and that they want to bring more cheap labor into the country and that it's very difficult to get people to do certain jobs.

   10. CHColeman Hughes17:19

       That's why libertarians partly like, um, illegal immigration. That would be more of a Koch brothers policy though.

   11. JRJoe Rogan17:26

       Mm.

   12. CHColeman Hughes17:26

       I mean, that, that's why they... That's why Bernie Sanders called, called open borders are Koch brothers policies because cheap labor.

   13. JRJoe Rogan17:32

       Interesting. Yeah.

   14. CHColeman Hughes17:33

       But that wouldn't apply necessarily to Biden. Like, okay, so someone like Biden, I understand you, you might argue, okay, are they letting people in because those are gonna be the Democrat voters? Uh, those are gonna increase the Democrat voters base. I don't know. Does Biden care about that? I don't think so. Biden's not going to be around in 10 years.

   15. JRJoe Rogan17:52

       Well, I don't think Biden's making decisions.

   16. CHColeman Hughes17:54

       You don't think he is?

   17. JRJoe Rogan17:55

       No. I, I-

   18. CHColeman Hughes17:56

       You think it's his circle at this point?

   19. JRJoe Rogan17:58

       Yeah, I think he's so far gone. And this is what I said when he was running. I was saying, you're gonna leave it up to his cabinet. He's not able to form s- listen, when you see him at debates or at press conferences, he's at his very best, and he's probably medicated. They probably juice him up with a bunch of different things and get him hyped. "Let's go," roll him out there-

   20. CHColeman Hughes18:23

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan18:23

       ... and then he... even then, he can't...... form sentences.

   22. CHColeman Hughes18:27

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan18:27

       He, he loses track of what he's talking about. It's... That's him at his very best. What is he like when he's tired?

   24. CHColeman Hughes18:35

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan18:35

       What is he like when he's not primed?

   26. CHColeman Hughes18:37

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan18:37

       You know, it's... I d- I do not think that he even has the interest in doing that. I think he wanted to be president, he got to be president, and he has all these people around him. And just even by the way he talks about things, uh, he's so out of touch with the way he's describing things and talking about bills that they pass and talking about important issues. I just think he's completely out of it.

   28. CHColeman Hughes19:00

       For sure.

   29. JRJoe Rogan19:00

       And I think it's a really... It's, it's very unfair. And if that was my father, I would be terrified.

   30. CHColeman Hughes19:08

       Mm-hmm.
6. 27:20 – 31:52

   AI voice translation, Hitler speeches, and YouTube copyright tripwires

   1. JRJoe Rogan27:20

      Have you seen the Hitler speeches with AI translation into English?

   2. CHColeman Hughes27:23

      No.

   3. JRJoe Rogan27:24

      It's in-

   4. CHColeman Hughes27:24

      I've seen subtitles but ... Oh, but they, but they put the voice into English?

   5. JRJoe Rogan27:27

      Yeah. They changed the voice.

   6. CHColeman Hughes27:28

      Oh, wow.

   7. JRJoe Rogan27:29

      Which is a, a new technology that they're actually employing with podcasts. Spotify now has the ability to take this podcast with you and me.

   8. CHColeman Hughes27:35

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan27:36

      And just for f- I think it's like 30 seconds of your voice and my voice, they can have us speak fluent German, Spanish, and French right now.

   10. CHColeman Hughes27:45

       Mm-hmm. Mm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan27:45

       And they're gonna expand it to a bunch of different languages and just put pod- podcasts out in different languages for different countries. Like it's-

   12. CHColeman Hughes27:52

       That's awesome.

   13. JRJoe Rogan27:53

       Yeah, it's fascinating. But they ... So they did it with Hitler. You should watch it. We- we'll play it for you.

   14. CHColeman Hughes27:57

       Mm, mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan27:57

       Can we play it or will we get in trouble?

   16. NANarrator27:59

       I have no idea.

   17. CHColeman Hughes27:59

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan27:59

       Let's find out. Let's find out. 'Cause YouTube is s- The, the, the jump ... I should just say this. From s- just staying entirely on Spotify to now we're everywhere.

   19. CHColeman Hughes28:09

       Uh-huh.

   20. JRJoe Rogan28:10

       Dealing with YouTube-

   21. CHColeman Hughes28:11

       Ah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan28:11

       ... is so bizarre. Like, people can claim copyright for things that are 100% not theirs.

   23. CHColeman Hughes28:18

       Interesting.

   24. JRJoe Rogan28:18

       But if they claim it, then they, uh, uh, they can monetize your show. They take all the money from your show, so then you have to remove it, and then you have to fight it.

   25. CHColeman Hughes28:27

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan28:28

       And you have to figure out like ... If you play two seconds of a song ... Is it two seconds?

   27. NANarrator28:33

       Mm, it's not two seconds.

   28. CHColeman Hughes28:33

       How many seconds?

   29. NANarrator28:34

       It's like over six or something like that. I don't know.

   30. JRJoe Rogan28:37

       Okay. Six seconds-
7. 31:52 – 39:09

   Musashi, fear as fuel, and performing under pressure (fighting, comedy, live TV)

   1. JRJoe Rogan31:52

      ... but also by, uh, Miyamoto Musashi, who, when I was a, a young man, like, that book, The Book of Five Rings, was, like, essentially my guidebook for life.

   2. CHColeman Hughes32:02

      What is that about?

   3. JRJoe Rogan32:03

      It, it's a book of strategy by this man, Miyamoto Musashi.

   4. CHColeman Hughes32:07

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JRJoe Rogan32:07

      And Miyamoto Musashi was a ronin who killed 60 men in one-on-one combat.

   6. CHColeman Hughes32:13

      Hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan32:13

      And he was, like, arguably the most famous. He's, uh, i- he's ... my whole right sleeve is Miyamoto Musashi.

   8. CHColeman Hughes32:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan32:20

      And he wrote this book, The Book of Five Rings, and it was essentially calling for a balanced life to perfect your craft, no matter what it is. But he was essentially saying that for someone to be a great warrior, you also have to be a great poet. You have to be able to do calligraphy. You have to be able to do art.

   10. CHColeman Hughes32:41

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan32:41

       You, you have to have a bal- ... you can't just be this, like, angry, emotional killing machine.

   12. CHColeman Hughes32:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. JRJoe Rogan32:48

       You will not see everything. You, you, you must be balanced. And this is a guy that's speaking from intense actual experience sword-fighting people-

   14. CHColeman Hughes32:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JRJoe Rogan33:00

       ... which is probably the most intimate way to kill a man.

   16. CHColeman Hughes33:02

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       And he got so good at it, sometimes he would show up with wooden swords and kill people with wooden swords-

   18. CHColeman Hughes33:07

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:08

       ... 'cause he just didn't feel like their technique was good enough for him to justify using an actual sword, so he'd beat them to death with oars. So, they would come at him with a sword, and he would have, like, an oar-

   20. CHColeman Hughes33:19

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:19

       ... from a boat, and he would just fuck them up with an oar. (laughs)

   22. CHColeman Hughes33:23

       Jesus Christ.

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:24

       He was a fascinating guy, but-

   24. CHColeman Hughes33:25

       So, I can see how you kind of reflect that. I mean, you're, you're like this, uh, you're this big guy and y- you do mixed martial arts, but you also do yoga and you, you know, you, and, and you pay attention to the world. And so, uh, uh, that kind of makes sense that that's where you come from.

   25. JRJoe Rogan33:40

       That ... yeah, that was my guidebook, because, uh, when I was a young man and I was fighting-

   26. CHColeman Hughes33:44

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan33:45

       ... I was trying to figure out how to control my emotions and m- my anxiety and what's the most effective way-

   28. CHColeman Hughes33:52

       (coughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan33:52

       ... to approach something that's absolutely terrifying.

   30. CHColeman Hughes33:54

       Mm-hmm.
8. 39:09 – 45:33

   Archery, shooting mechanics, and mental control strategies

   1. CHColeman Hughes39:09

      What about archery and shooting? Those are probably the opposite, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan39:12

      Well, archery's, bow hunting is very much that. Bow hunting-

   3. CHColeman Hughes39:17

      In, in a sense you wanna be s-

   4. JRJoe Rogan39:18

      Yes.

   5. CHColeman Hughes39:18

      ... anxious a little bit?

   6. JRJoe Rogan39:19

      Yeah, you're going to be-

   7. CHColeman Hughes39:21

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JRJoe Rogan39:21

      ... no matter what. You will, you will be anxious. But you must be able to perform at your best and handle that anxiety. And there's a bunch of different methods that people use to avoid, uh, open loop thought processes. So an open loop thought process is like swinging a bat. You really can't stop the bat once you're swinging it. You're swinging with all your might and it's just this open loop, right?

   9. CHColeman Hughes39:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan39:46

       A closed loop process is something where you're in control of it every step of the way. Like for instance, me opening up this thing. I can stop right there.

   11. CHColeman Hughes39:54

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan39:54

       I don't just go, "Uh."

   13. CHColeman Hughes39:55

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan39:55

       I can't, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's not like, uh, a thing that I can't control.

   15. CHColeman Hughes40:00

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan40:00

       You can control it. And so when you're in a, uh, a shooting situation with it, like with archery, you have to think entirely about the process of shooting. You can't just go now-

   17. CHColeman Hughes40:13

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan40:13

       ... 'cause you'll be filled with anxiety, you'll move your arm-

   19. CHColeman Hughes40:15

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan40:15

       ... you'll twitch. There's a lot... You have to be able to stay rock steady with something that's not very steady. The beautiful thing about archery is the perfection of doing something that's almost impossible to perfect. So when you can have these brief moments where that arrow does launch and goes right into that target, right where the X is-

   21. CHColeman Hughes40:34

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JRJoe Rogan40:35

       (sighs) There's this immense sense of elation, accomplishment. But now when you're dealing with an animal-

   23. CHColeman Hughes40:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JRJoe Rogan40:42

       ... then you have all these other consequences, like you don't want to wound the animal. You wanna be able to hit it and kill it very quickly with one shot.

   25. CHColeman Hughes40:48

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan40:48

       And you have to have practiced thousands and thousands of arrows. And then there's this one moment. It's not like fighting where you have multiple opportunities to hit a guy.

   27. CHColeman Hughes40:56

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan40:57

       You can move, you can step to the side, you could... This is the one moment that the fight is actually happened, but there's a lot of moments in the fight. When you release that arrow, that is one moment.

   29. CHColeman Hughes41:06

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JRJoe Rogan41:06

       So you might have worked 11 months, three weeks, and six days for this one moment, and you've been planning this elk hunt for the whole year. You've gotten in shape for it, you practiced all these arrows. But when that elk steps out from between those trees at 60 yards and you're at full draw, you have to center that pin right where its vitals are, and you have to release a perfect arrow.
9. 45:33 – 1:07:46

   Obsessive greatness: Jordan/Kobe mindset, chess elites, and Magnus Carlsen’s dominance

   1. JRJoe Rogan45:33

      Yeah. You have to be... I mean, to, to perform at that level too, you have to be really insane. You know, I would say that greatness and that, uh, like, real brilliance comes out of almost like a mental illness.

   2. CHColeman Hughes45:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JRJoe Rogan45:49

      It really-

   4. CHColeman Hughes45:49

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan45:49

      ... almost does. Because in order to be just so much better than all the other high performers-

   6. CHColeman Hughes45:54

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan45:54

      Because David Goggins has the best quote.

   8. CHColeman Hughes45:56

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan45:56

      He says, "You want to be uncommon amongst uncommon people."

   10. CHColeman Hughes46:00

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan46:01

       That's him. But, you know, do you want to do what he does? (laughs)

   12. CHColeman Hughes46:03

       No.

   13. JRJoe Rogan46:04

       Like, but he... That's what he-

   14. CHColeman Hughes46:05

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan46:05

       That's how he's uncommon amongst uncommon people.

   16. CHColeman Hughes46:07

       Yeah. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan46:07

       He's a fucking complete psycho.

   18. CHColeman Hughes46:09

       Totally, yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan46:10

       But that is how you become David Goggins.

   20. CHColeman Hughes46:12

       That's right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan46:12

       You, you don't become David Goggins by being this mild-mannered person who contemplates and, you know, sits with his coffee and stares out the window and watches the birds.

   22. CHColeman Hughes46:21

       No.

   23. JRJoe Rogan46:21

       And that's not... That's not... That's not how you get the job done.

   24. CHColeman Hughes46:24

       No, not at all. Not at all.

   25. JRJoe Rogan46:25

       And that's not how you become Michael Jordan either.

   26. CHColeman Hughes46:26

       No.

   27. JRJoe Rogan46:27

       You, you have to be obs- I heard that if you beat Michael Jordan at pool, he wouldn't talk to you for weeks.

   28. CHColeman Hughes46:31

       Yeah. That-

   29. JRJoe Rogan46:32

       (laughs)

   30. CHColeman Hughes46:32

       That's, that's a maladjusted person. In any other scenario-
10. 1:07:46 – 1:12:16

    Hans Niemann controversy: cheating methods, chess.com detection, and reputation fallout

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:07:46

       I wanted to ask you this.

    2. CHColeman Hughes1:07:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:07:47

       What was your take on Magnus Carlsen and that young man who apparently, uh-

    4. CHColeman Hughes1:07:53

       Hans?

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:07:54

       ... has... Yes.

    6. CHColeman Hughes1:07:55

       Hans Niemann.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:07:56

       Yeah. Uh-

    8. CHColeman Hughes1:07:57

       Uh, what a character.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:07:58

       ... so explain, explain the story for people.

    10. CHColeman Hughes1:07:59

        All right. So ba- basically what happened is there's this grandmaster named Hans Niemann, who's a young guy, probably, uh, early early 20s. Magnus is probably more, like, 31 or s- so, like, now. Um, uh, and, uh, what happened is Hans Niemann, uh, he beat Magnus Carlsen at a tournament in a game, not in a match necessarily. Uh, you might need to check that, but he beat him in the first game of, of, of the tournament, which happens, right? Like, even, it's kinda like how the best tennis player in the world can lose a game to a lesser player, but probably isn't gonna lose the match. That happens pretty frequently in chess, not, not uncommon. But it is m- the most uncommon with Magnus. Magnus suspected Hans of cheating. Why did he suspect Hans of cheating? Magnus is not the type to assume someone is cheating just because he lost a game. He's never done that in his entire career. Reason he did it in the case of Hans is because there had long been rumors circulating in the chess world that Hans Niemann was a cheater. Now, there's ways you can cheat in chess in, in an over-the-board game if we're playing with a physical set in front of us. Uh, the way, one way people do it is they'll have a friend, generally, that is looking at the game either here or out in the hall, running it through an engine and giving you a little signal like a, like cheating in a, like a baseball coach would. Um, there are also rumors that i- in principle, it's possible to cheat with a device, and I think that's, that's happened in, in some way, that someone can transmit to you, be looking at the game and transmit you a signal, "Here's the right move with a certain number of buzzes," if I have a buzzer in my pocket. Uh, in principle, it's possible to have a buzzer in the orifices of your body, you know, in your butt, essentially. And this is part of-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:09:49

        That's-

    12. CHColeman Hughes1:09:49

        ... why it went viral is because there was a theory that they have pretty strict security at these places, so where would he have put the device, you know? They're not gonna, they're not doing an anal cavity check. So that's, that was part of the reason people were talking about it so much, 'cause that's just hilarious to contemplate. But the real, the real situation of it was that Magnus made some strong implied comments that Hans had cheated in, in the game, then everyone started looking into Hans, and the rumors that had long existed in the chess world about this guy became public, and there were serious competing investigations of how is it this, that this guy rose so quickly, for example. It's very uncommon in the chess world for someone to raise in rating that quickly in the professional world, right? There's, like, a, there's a normal rate at which people get better, and there's a kind of impossible rate at which people got better. And people debated. He had defenders, he had attackers, both of them had some good points, um, about his rise in over-the-board play. Then there's the online cheating, which is a totally different story 'cause chess.com has one of the, really the state-of-the-art cheating detection mechanism. Uh, uh, and people cheat all the time on chess.com, which is crazy because there's no reason for it, right? Like, someone like me, I pay whatever I pay every month on chess.com. I'm a random amateur player, I like playing when I'm on the subway, I like playing my friend occasionally. You don't get any money for winning. Most of us have, uh, anonymous usernames. You don't get bragging rights for winning. And yet there's a certain percentage of people, like me, on chess.com that just cheat for no reason. They're just sitting at home in their mother's basement cheating to get a number on a screen that means nothing and wins them no money.

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:11:30

        Yeah, but it's, to me, them-

    14. CHColeman Hughes1:11:31

        It's a, it's a-

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:11:31

        ... it makes complete sense.

    16. CHColeman Hughes1:11:33

        Really? Why?

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:11:33

        Because of video games, 'cause in video games people would use bots when you'd play online, so an aiming bot would make it so that you would almost never miss. So you would play a guy, and, like say in Quake, there's a, there's a, there's a gun called the railgun. The railgun is very difficult to hit someone with, but it imparts the most damage-

    18. CHColeman Hughes1:11:51

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:11:52

        ... but it doesn't have a scatter of damage. Where, like, like, a rocket, you could shoot a rocket next to a guy and fuck him up.

    20. CHColeman Hughes1:11:57

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:11:58

        You could hurt him, but it won't hurt him as much as a railgun, which would kill him almost instantly unless he has a specific amount of armor. And there's some guys who would never miss. They just hit you with that railgun every time your, your head poked out. It would be impossible for them to know exactly where you were gonna be-

    22. CHColeman Hughes1:12:11

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:12:11

        ... for the amount of time unless it was dumb luck-

    24. CHColeman Hughes1:12:14

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:12:14

        ... but you can't have dumb luck nine times in a row.

Episode duration: 3:10:23