Joe Rogan Experience #2147 - Mike Baker

Narrator 0:00 (drum roll) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. (energetic music) Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

Joe Rogan 0:12 Mike Baker, it's very important that I ask you about this.

Mike Baker 0:15 What's that? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:16 'Cause, uh, I know you're an expert on conflict. How do you feel about the, uh, Kendrick Lamar and Drake beef?

Mike Baker 0:22 (exhales) Man, I am so glad you asked (laughs) me about this.

Joe Rogan 0:24 (laughs)

Mike Baker 0:24 Because my boys, you know, I got, I got three boys, and all three of them have mentioned this in the past few days, right?

Joe Rogan 0:30 Yeah.

Mike Baker 0:30 (clears throat) And they want to, they, they want to talk about it, right? So, S- (laughs) Scooter will say, "God, did you hear what he said?" And, it's like, "Re- honestly, no, I haven't." But, um, they've, they've all brought this up. Uh, I am completely unfamiliar with the, uh... Although it sounds like the old days, east versus west, right?

Joe Rogan 0:46 Yeah, I, I think it's-

Mike Baker 0:46 In the old rap battles.

Joe Rogan 0:47 ... a g- it's a personality thing, 'cause one of them is Toronto, so it's actually America versus Canada.

Mike Baker 0:53 Oh, well, that's right.

Joe Rogan 0:54 It's, it's a real conflict there.

Mike Baker 0:56 And which one is the, uh, the little guy?

Joe Rogan 0:58 Kendrick Lamar.

Mike Baker 0:58 Kendrick Lamar, that's right.

Joe Rogan 0:59 (laughs)

Mike Baker 0:59 (laughs) Yeah, so that's what my middle boy, Slugo, said.

Joe Rogan 1:02 (laughs)

Mike Baker 1:02 I think he's, like, 5'1" or something.

Joe Rogan 1:04 He's not a big fella.

Mike Baker 1:05 No.

Joe Rogan 1:05 Him, uh, and Drake have been going at it now four songs apiece, so eight songs dedicated to beef.

Mike Baker 1:13 I think that's fantastic. I think we need-

Joe Rogan 1:14 Pretty wild.

Mike Baker 1:14 ... more of that, right? It's better than the, uh, Hamas conflict.

Joe Rogan 1:17 Is there more?

Mike Baker 1:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:17 Security guard injured in shooting outside Drake's home in Toronto.

Mike Baker 1:20 (sighs) Oh, God.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 1:20 Yeah, just a drive-by overnight.

Joe Rogan 1:20 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Mike Baker 1:22 God damn it.

Joe Rogan 1:23 See-

Mike Baker 1:23 It was a drive-by?

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 1:24 Yeah, and the security guard was outside. Said he was shot, I think unconsciously taken to the hospital.

Mike Baker 1:29 Oh, my God.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 1:30 They don't think he died. See, it was-

Mike Baker 1:31 "Do not know whether the shooting was related." Well, what, let-

Joe Rogan 1:34 Wait, w- (laughs) re-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 1:34 (laughs)

Mike Baker 1:34 Take a fucking guess.

Joe Rogan 1:36 You think it was or wasn't?

Mike Baker 1:37 What do you think, a drive-by-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 1:37 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:38 ... might be related? Well, that's when shit gets scary, when people start shooting at each other.

Joe Rogan 1:42 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:42 No, I, I, it, when it was just... 'Cause, like, I, I think it was Slugo who told me that one of them, I think it w- it must have been Drake who was talking about his, uh, he, he dissed him by talking about his size, 7 feet or something, right?

Joe Rogan 1:53 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:53 And, uh, that's fine. I think it's great. If everybody was just like, if the Israelis and Hamas would go after each other in, in song.

Joe Rogan 1:59 Battle raps.

Mike Baker 2:00 Yeah, battle raps. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:01 Yeah, why not?

Mike Baker 2:02 Yes, yeah. Yeah, dance off.

Joe Rogan 2:02 That, that's how they should do it.

Mike Baker 2:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:04 This is, this, uh, b- it was hilarious, but everybody's invested in this beef. My oldest daughter and my wife were in the car this morning, and they were having a conversation, these two grown-ass women-

Mike Baker 2:15 (laughs)

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 2:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:15 ... having a conversation about who's the superior rapper.

Mike Baker 2:18 (laughs)

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 2:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:18 And they felt that Kendrick is a better lyricist, although Drake has more hits, you know?

Mike Baker 2:23 Drake has more hits?

Joe Rogan 2:24 Started from the bottom, now we're here. I mean, look, he's got some bangers. They both have banger... I love Kendrick Lamar.

Mike Baker 2:30 God.

Joe Rogan 2:30 I just wish these two would hug it out.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 2:32 Oh, no, that was Kendrick's first big point.

Mike Baker 2:33 Yeah, well, now it's, and now it's moved on to the firefight stage of the, of the battle.

Joe Rogan 2:36 Yeah, well, now they're shooting.

Mike Baker 2:37 Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:37 What did you say, Jim?

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 2:38 Kendrick's first big point was that it's, it's 20 verse one 'cause Drake has all those ghost writers helping him make all these, all these hits.

Joe Rogan 2:44 Mmm.

Mike Baker 2:45 Ooh.

Joe Rogan 2:45 So, that's an allegation in the rap community-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 2:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:48 Apparently, that Drake hires-

Mike Baker 2:49 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 2:49 ... ghost writers. I don't know how I feel about that. So, uh, I feel like, the same way I feel like if I find out someone, there's a banging song. Like, Beyoncé has a song out, I don't get upset if she didn't write it.

Mike Baker 2:59 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 2:59 Do you get upset?

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:00 It's mostly only in rap that people are like, "You didn't write that down, they care."

Joe Rogan 3:03 Like comedy, like comedy.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:05 Like, the same thing with comedy.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:06 Country song, they don't care.

Joe Rogan 3:07 Country, they do care.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:09 Not really.

Mike Baker 3:09 Not as, uh, uh-

Joe Rogan 3:10 Yeah, they do.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:10 It depends on the country.

Mike Baker 3:11 I was, I was gonna say, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:12 Guys like Zach Bryan shine through-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:14 Sure.

Joe Rogan 3:14 ... because they write their own shit.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:15 But it's very collaborative, though. Country's a hugely-

Joe Rogan 3:17 Yeah.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:17 ... collaborative writing process.

Joe Rogan 3:18 Sure.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:18 Absolutely, like Nashville.

Mike Baker 3:18 Tennessee, Tennessee Whiskey, right?

Joe Rogan 3:20 Yeah.

Mike Baker 3:20 Tennessee Whiskey was a song.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Oh, Chris Stapleton. Yeah.

Mike Baker 3:22 Yeah, but, but, you know, he didn't write it.

Joe Rogan 3:24 He wrote... I thought he did write it.

Mike Baker 3:24 And, uh, it came out... No, it came out-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:26 I think he performed it-

Mike Baker 3:27 Yeah.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:27 ... and someone else wrote it, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:28 Oh.

Mike Baker 3:28 Came out years before.

Joe Rogan 3:29 He wrote a lot for other people-

Mike Baker 3:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:30 ... though, correct?

Mike Baker 3:30 Yeah.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:31 But, yeah, just like, uh, I don't even think... There's tons of songs like that.

Joe Rogan 3:33 They write for each other, yeah.

Mike Baker 3:34 Yeah, exactly.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:36 Yeah, there's a lot of those guys that, like, Chris Stapleton made a living for a long time as a writer.

Mike Baker 3:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:40 Because p-

Mike Baker 3:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:41 ... people looked at him like, "Come on, man, you ain't sexy."

Mike Baker 3:43 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:44 Meanwhile, they were wrong.

Mike Baker 3:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:45 They were wrong.

Mike Baker 3:45 And it's, and it's, and it's a very, it's a smaller community, right? They, th-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:48 Yes.

Mike Baker 3:48 ... you know, the country music community. And it, and it does tend to get more, um, crossover between musicians and writers, right?

Joe Rogan 3:55 Yes.

Mike Baker 3:55 I mean, it, the, a lot of them will start out, like you said, as writers.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 3:57 There you go, right?

Joe Rogan 3:58 Tennessee Whiskey, a country song written by Dean Dillon and Linda Hargrove-

Mike Baker 4:02 Yeah, David Allan Coe.

Joe Rogan 4:02 ... was originally recorded by artist David Allan Coe for his album of the same name, peaking at number 77 in the Billboard Hot Country Singles in 1981. Wow.

Mike Baker 4:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:11 George Jones' 1983 version of the song was included on his album Shine On and reached number two on the Hot Country Singles chart.

Mike Baker 4:18 What great artists.

Joe Rogan 4:19 Did you hear that Randy Travis-

Mike Baker 4:21 George Jones.

Joe Rogan 4:21 Randy Travis is using AI now to make new songs? Because he's, he was paralyzed by a stroke.

Mike Baker 4:27 (inhales deeply) Wow.

Joe Rogan 4:28 But because they could take his voice, which is an iconic voice-

Mike Baker 4:32 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:32 ... Randy Travis has it.

Mike Baker 4:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:34 Incredible voice. But because of AI, they can get recordings of him singing, and he could plug it into AI and he can still make songs.

Mike Baker 4:43 And you know how much of a recording they need nowadays-

Joe Rogan 4:46 Oh, yeah.

Mike Baker 4:46 ... to actually mimic the entire range of a person's voice? As, as-

Joe Rogan 4:49 I think it's 30 seconds.

Mike Baker 4:50 ... but less than that now. Start-

Joe Rogan 4:51 Really?

Mike Baker 4:51 Not that long ago, it was 30 seconds. Now you need a snippet, and by a snippet, I mean seconds.

Joe Rogan 4:56 Yeah.

Mike Baker 4:56 And you can then, you can, you can then, uh, mimic that voice through a range of emotions-

Joe Rogan 5:02 Mm.

Mike Baker 5:02 ... uh, and, and, uh, scenarios. It's, it's stunning what they can do.

Joe Rogan 5:06 There was a guy who just got fired because he made a fake AI recording of a guy he worked for saying a bunch of racist things.

Mike Baker 5:17 Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:18 And the guy, like, everybody was attacking him, he got in trouble, and then they somehow or another did an analysis on it and realized-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 5:24 The select director did it to, like, the principal of the high school.

Joe Rogan 5:27 Right.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 5:28 Because he was about to get fired, so he was like, "All right, instead of me getting fired, watch this."

Joe Rogan 5:31 Right, he thought he was being slick.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 5:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:33 But he's a dummy, and he didn't know that they can tell.

Mike Baker 5:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:35 They can a- analyze-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 5:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:37 ... audio recordings and tell whether or not they're real.

Mike Baker 5:39 How do they do that?

Joe Rogan 5:40 How can they tell?

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 5:41 Well, that one specifically, I think someone else was, like, they... It was a conversation between two people.

Joe Rogan 5:46 Mm-hmm.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 5:47 And they both were like, "I, I didn't hear that," and, "I didn't say that." So, they were like, "All right, well, well, what could have happened?"

Mike Baker 5:52 They, I mean, there's, there's-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 5:53 And then they probably broke... I don't... I think they got the guy's computer to find out what he said.

Mike Baker 5:55 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:55 So, he must have had a secret recording, and then in that secret recording, he took it and then threw it through AI and had him-

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 6:02 Gave him a shot, yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:02 ... say a bunch of N words in there.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 6:03 Yeah.

Mike Baker 6:04 There's, there's two aspects of this whole thing, right? There's the, there's the detection portion of it, right? Can you detect, like, something like this is, is fake-

Joe Rogan 6:11 Right.

Mike Baker 6:11 ... whether it's audio, whether it's video, uh, combination of both? And then there's the other side of it, which is, uh, uh, trying to stay up with the capabilities of those that are trying to do these, you know, identity thefts or whatever you want to call it.

Joe Rogan 6:24 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 6:24 And that's the, um, that's sort of the proactive effort to lock down recordings, right? And there's some, some interesting work being done in that space, where if you film something... Say you go to a, a campaign rally and you film that campaign rally, there are, um, there are a handful of companies out there figuring out that you can, uh, essentially watermark it, right?

Joe Rogan 6:46 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 6:46 So that it cannot be fucked with, right?

Joe Rogan 6:49 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 6:49 And that you can determine if it's an actual recording or not. And that's really... I mean, you think about, you know, how much disinformation is roiling around out there now, right?

Joe Rogan 6:57 Yeah.

Mike Baker 6:57 So, but detection, it's important, but it's not enough anymore. So where the focus has to be is on ensuring that anything that's being recorded, whether it's a body cam for a police officer, whether it's maybe someone's at a protest, right? And they're, and they're a protester or they're on the other side, whatever. To be able to, to film something and then ensure that it's accurate and true going forward, right? That's, that's a really important part, because you can't... The detection side of it's important, but it can't stay up with the developments of all the folks out there.

Joe Rogan 7:27 Right.

Mike Baker 7:27 All the criminal gangs, criminal elements, and whether it's state sponsored or not that's out there, you know, j- just with this disinformation effort. So, I mean, it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating problem. But people are getting duped constantly.

Joe Rogan 7:40 It's a fascinating problem that is only going to get worse.

Mike Baker 7:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:42 As these new versions of AI get rolled out, it's going to be more and more difficult to detect what's true and what's fake.

Mike Baker 7:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:49 It's... And people can do it on their computer so easy now. I was... (laughs) This one of Biden, he's walking and he pauses to talk to people, and they CGI'd shit, like, that he's pooping himself.

Mike Baker 8:04 I saw that.

Joe Rogan 8:05 Yeah, that one?

Mike Baker 8:05 The one where, the one where he kind of stops. He pauses-

Joe Rogan 8:07 He's in that weird pause.

Mike Baker 8:08 ... like he's got to fart. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:10 And then you just see him poop himself.

Mike Baker 8:11 And people are out there saying, "Look, that's a, that's a mid-stage dementia stance," right? That's what they're, that's what they're saying now. They're, they're talking about that. I don't know, I don't know about that, but, but look, there's-

Joe Rogan 8:22 Well, something's going on.

Mike Baker 8:23 There are... If you talk about, uh, just, uh, what do they call it? Face swap, right?

Joe Rogan 8:28 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 8:28 So, they can take a photo of somebody now. They can take a little snippet of, of somebody talking now. And there are over 100 apps out there, readily available to anybody, right? Um, that can basically do this fape s- face-swap technology and put somebody else in there. And the, and criminal elements are doing it all the time, right?

Joe Rogan 8:50 Yeah.

Mike Baker 8:50 So if I'm a fraudster and I send a note, say, to, to somebody in, in, uh, in procurement, and I say, "Hey, you need to send a, a check for $100,000 to the, to our vendor."

Joe Rogan 9:02 Right.

Mike Baker 9:02 Right? "Here's the details." Well, they might have protocols in place at the company that says, "Okay, well, first, uh, this is a large transaction. I better call the finance director." Right? Or, or whomever. They've got a way that they can, they can figure out how to spoof all of that, right? So you could be talking to whom you think is the finance director, but they'll actually... With the face-swap technology that's available out there, right, it's, it's somebody having a conversation. You think it's the f- the finance director, but they're, they're talking to you and y-

Joe Rogan 9:27 Completely different person.

Mike Baker 9:28 Completely different person.

Joe Rogan 9:29 Their voice gets changed.

Mike Baker 9:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:30 Their face gets changed. They look exactly like you.

Mike Baker 9:32 Yep.

Joe Rogan 9:32 So I could use face-swap technology that exists, exists today. And with all the recordings that we have of you from this show...

Mike Baker 9:39 Oh, fuck yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:40 100%.

Mike Baker 9:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:41 We could have you saying a bunch of shit that you never really said.

Mike Baker 9:44 (laughs) And some shit that I probably did say over the years.

Joe Rogan 9:46 Probably did, yeah.

Mike Baker 9:47 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:47 Well, we, we've said a lot of shit.

Mike Baker 9:48 Yeah, there's some shit. But, um...

Joe Rogan 9:50 Um, let me ask you this.

Mike Baker 9:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:51 Like, when they're, when they're doing this, uh, all, all, all this, all this face-swap technology and all, all this different stuff, like, what, what can be done to try to keep ahead of it? To make sure, like, from a national security perspective. Like, how do you-

Mike Baker 10:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:09 Uh, how do you keep... How do you know?

Mike Baker 10:11 Right. Um, y- there's a couple parts to that. One-

Joe Rogan 10:15 Like if Netanyahu-

Mike Baker 10:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:15 ... all of a sudden has some crazy speech-

Mike Baker 10:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 10:18 ... and says some wild shit, and like, "We're going to war." Like, "Hey."

Mike Baker 10:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:22 Is that real?

Mike Baker 10:22 Well, what they... I mean, again, part of it is like... Uh, there's, there's a handful of companies out there, um, and, uh, um, they will... They, they're able to, again, record. And it in- in- instantly as it does it, it, it re- embeds information, right? It embeds specific time, location, uh, you know, uh, your coordinates.

Joe Rogan 10:43 And it'll all be in the recording.

Mike Baker 10:43 And it's in there, right? And then it, and it's sort of a blockchain, uh, system where then on the other side, the person can look and go, "Yeah, this is accurate. This is correct." Right? This... But people have to be able to take that... And this is, I guess, where I'm going with this. People have to be able to, to, to, to take that step.

Joe Rogan 10:58 Right.

Mike Baker 10:58 To ensure that what they're watching is, uh, accurate. So when people say, "Well, how do you, how do you prevent this? How do you keep this from happening?" The unsatisfactory answer to su- to a large degree is, it comes down to individual people, right? Everybody has a big fucking responsibility now, more so than before, to understand what they're looking at, listening to, watching.

Joe Rogan 11:21 Well, we're fucked.

Mike Baker 11:23 We're fucked. We are. We- a- uh, yeah. Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:24 Now we're really fucked.

Mike Baker 11:25 I don't want, I don't want to sound cynical, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:26 Because there's just too many people-

Mike Baker 11:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:27 ... that are concerned about Drake and Kendrick Lamar and don't even know what's going on in Gaza.

Mike Baker 11:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:32 They're much more concerned with them. Like we have, like a lot of 84 IQ-ers out there bouncing around, walking into traffic.

Mike Baker 11:38 Yeah, 84's, what, is that average nowadays? Or is that... I don't even know. Um...

Joe Rogan 11:42 I think it's 15% of the population is 84 and below, right? Is that what it is? Remember when we looked that up?

Mike Baker 11:47 50%?

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 11:48 Yeah, but that would also mean 15% is whatever 100 and, plus and above too.

Joe Rogan 11:51 What's the actual numbers? Like let's-

Mike Baker 11:53 Yeah, yeah.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 11:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:53 Let's get a pie chart of IQs.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 11:55 Let's see, it's, uh, a g- it's a standard deviation thing for, uh...

Mike Baker 11:59 See, already I know that you're above 84 just because you said that.

Joe Rogan 12:02 Yeah, you said standard eight- deviation.

Mike Baker 12:04 Wow. Wow.

Joe Rogan 12:05 And he Googles with one hand.

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 12:06 Yeah. (laughs) So like-

Joe Rogan 12:07 (laughs)

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 12:07 It's 'cause Carl's being petted.

Mike Baker 12:09 (laughs)

Guest (secondary in-room voice) 12:09 Just no matter what, almost no matter what thing you're trying to average out, they're almost always end up looking this way, and 15% will always be on that side of it.

Joe Rogan 12:16 Bro, fif- wh- what, what percentage? 0.1% are 55 and below? Fuck. 2% of the population is 70.... Jesus, between 55 and 70, 2% of the population. And then 14% of the population is 85.

Mike Baker 12:31 Yeah, but 34% is below a hundred.

Joe Rogan 12:33 So, most people are between 85 and 115, and me, I'm in that sweet zone-

Mike Baker 12:40 Mm.

Joe Rogan 12:40 ... between 115 and 130.

Mike Baker 12:42 Are you?

Joe Rogan 12:42 Yeah.

Mike Baker 12:42 Really? That's-

Joe Rogan 12:43 Yeah.

Mike Baker 12:43 ... that's impressive. I- I suspect I'm to the left of that somewhere. Yeah, um, I've never taken an IQ test.

Joe Rogan 12:50 I took one at 2:00 in the morning-

Mike Baker 12:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:52 ... and I- I wasn't even awake. I wanted to see, and I said, "I should probably take some Alpha Brain, take this bitch again, and get fired up," but I didn't. I'm happy with my score.

Mike Baker 13:01 Well ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:03 (laughs)

Mike Baker 13:03 I mean, honestly-

Joe Rogan 13:04 I just wanna know was it really stupid, you know?

Mike Baker 13:07 Well, God, uh, that's ... Okay, that's interesting. So, you know, lot- uh, a lot of people hanging out in the 85 to 115.

Joe Rogan 13:13 I don't think-

Narrator 13:13 5 to 29.

Joe Rogan 13:14 ... the- the real issue with all this stuff, though, is emotional intelligence and social intelligence. And, uh, there's people that are very brilliant people that I know-

Mike Baker 13:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:22 ... that- that suck at those other things, and that's held them back in life. So, are you smart? Are you really smart?

Mike Baker 13:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:28 If you- your emotional intelligence sucks so hard-

Mike Baker 13:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:32 ... (laughs) your- your ability to read social cues, the ab- your ability to form meaningful friendships sucks so hard that, you know, you're- you're isolated and nobody likes to be around you-

Mike Baker 13:42 Right.

Joe Rogan 13:42 ... but you have a high IQ. So, I'm supposed to think that's good?

Mike Baker 13:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:45 That seems dumb.

Mike Baker 13:46 I mean, it works for some people, I suppose. Uh-

Joe Rogan 13:48 That's- it doesn't, though.

Mike Baker 13:48 Well-

Joe Rogan 13:49 That's- that's a- a recipe for an unhappy life.

Mike Baker 13:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:51 So, that's stupid.

Mike Baker 13:51 Yeah, well, I mean, you never know. You get- you get somebody who's- who- that, uh, you know, they're a brilliant scientist, and they just- they have very little social life. Maybe they're happy in- in- in the science lab, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 14:02 That's true.

Mike Baker 14:03 But-

Joe Rogan 14:03 That's true. There's a few of those out there.

Mike Baker 14:03 But I- I agree. Empathy is ... I mean, we try to work with our- our kids all the time on that, right? I mean, you want a well-rounded kid. Our job is to raise-

Joe Rogan 14:11 Yeah.

Mike Baker 14:11 ... not average children.

Joe Rogan 14:13 Yes.

Mike Baker 14:13 But you want them to be well-rounded.

Joe Rogan 14:15 Yes.

Mike Baker 14:15 And- and empathy, uh, being able to read social cues, read a room, that's- that is super important. Um ...

Joe Rogan 14:21 The- my kids are all very kind.

Mike Baker 14:23 Mm.

Joe Rogan 14:23 And I love that. It makes me very, very happy. They're very kind. They're- they're kind to people. They're- they're kind to their friends. They're kind to people. They feel bad when someone's not doing well. They- they're kind. That means a lot.

Mike Baker 14:36 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:37 I- I'm very happy they got that from us.

Mike Baker 14:39 That is-

Joe Rogan 14:39 Since I think it's-

Mike Baker 14:40 Did they get that from you, or did they get that from-

Joe Rogan 14:42 Probably more from-

Mike Baker 14:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:42 ... Mrs. Rogan.

Mike Baker 14:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:43 I'm nice, though.

Mike Baker 14:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:44 I- and I work real hard at it, too-

Mike Baker 14:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:46 ... 'cause I don't have instincts to be nice. My instincts-

Mike Baker 14:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:48 ... are not to be very nice. My- my instincts (laughs) are survival of the fittest.

Mike Baker 14:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:53 It's very hard to, like, put that aside-

Mike Baker 14:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:55 ... and just be kind sometimes. But it always feels better when I do.

Mike Baker 14:59 (laughs) It is. You know what? It- and- and that's how kids learn to do it, right?

Joe Rogan 15:03 Yeah.

Mike Baker 15:03 I mean, people always ask, you know, about- with- with parenting, the kids are watching from the time they're nuggets, right?

Joe Rogan 15:10 Yep.

Mike Baker 15:10 And they absorb shit, and, you know, if you want your kid to be empathetic, you've gotta demonstrate that.

Joe Rogan 15:15 Yes.

Mike Baker 15:15 You've gotta demonstrate kindness. You've gotta demonstrate consideration.

Joe Rogan 15:18 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 15:18 Uh, our boys ... My daughter's great at it. My daughter is, uh, is- is very good. And our boys are- are boys. They're- they're aggressive and competitive and- and all that. They ... But, um, I think ours probably follow the traditional sort of multi-kid path, right? So, like, the oldest boy is- is empathetic, right? And kind and- and- and considerate and-

Joe Rogan 15:38 The youngest boy's probably a savage.

Mike Baker 15:40 Youngest- youngest boy's-

Joe Rogan 15:42 He's- he's got to deal-

Mike Baker 15:42 ... he's like the fucking mayor of party town.

Joe Rogan 15:43 That's what I'm saying.

Mike Baker 15:44 Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:45 'Cause he's gotta deal with the older brothers.

Mike Baker 15:46 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 15:47 So he had to grow up quicker.

Mike Baker 15:48 Yeah. And the middle boy, he's, uh-

Joe Rogan 15:49 They're usually better at things, too.

Mike Baker 15:51 Um, yeah, I ... Actually, you know what? He's- he's this ... My wife says, uh, who's the greatest person I know, she- she calls him the sleeper, right? Because he kinda comes in on the radar. You don't expect him to be great at something, and then he is, right?

Joe Rogan 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 16:04 Because he's been watching, and he's-

Joe Rogan 16:05 He's been watched.

Mike Baker 16:05 ... pissed off, and he wants to be better than his brothers.

Joe Rogan 16:08 Yes. Yes.

Mike Baker 16:08 Right? And then the middle boy is- is just like ... He's just like, "Fuck you. Get out of my way." Uh, you know, he's the basketball player. He's down-

Joe Rogan 16:15 He's into his own head.

Mike Baker 16:15 ... at IMG. He's into his own thing, and- and he's- he's a great kid, but he's just like, "This is what I'm gonna do. I don't know what you're doing or what you're doing, but here's- here's me." Right?

Joe Rogan 16:23 He's gotta focus.

Mike Baker 16:24 Yeah, he's gotta focus.

Joe Rogan 16:24 That's 'cause there's a lot of people around. He realizes he can't concentrate on other people being happy.

Mike Baker 16:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:28 Gotta do what he wants to do.

Mike Baker 16:28 Gotta do ... (laughs) Yeah, that's right. So, it is. I mean, it's in- and I think that's not-

Joe Rogan 16:31 Interesting dynamic, right?

Mike Baker 16:33 Yeah. It is. And- and you think about it, and you think about they all grow up a- and people talk about this all the time, so it's nothing new, but, you know, kids grow up in the same environment, right?

Joe Rogan 16:41 Yeah.

Mike Baker 16:41 And then they end up being so uniquely different in- in ways.

Joe Rogan 16:44 So different.

Mike Baker 16:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:44 They're different out of the box.

Mike Baker 16:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:46 'Cause ... And, boy, genetics plays a factor. My god, it plays a factor.

Mike Baker 16:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:51 And you realize it when you see your kids grow up, and you see traits that, like, there is no fucking way this is getting to you any way other than genetics.

Mike Baker 16:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:59 There's no way.

Mike Baker 17:00 Yeah. 'Cause I mean, at- at a certain point, yeah, they start to take some influence from their friends.

Joe Rogan 17:04 Yeah.

Mike Baker 17:04 You know, and they-

Joe Rogan 17:04 Oh, yeah.

Mike Baker 17:05 But by then, hopefully, you've kinda already set their, whatever, their moral compass, right?

Joe Rogan 17:10 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 17:10 And- and they know what they're supposed to do.

Joe Rogan 17:13 Yeah.

Mike Baker 17:13 Maybe they stray off that path occasionally.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 17:15 Right? Um, but for the most part, no, they ... I- I think you- you've got to- you've gotta set the parameters. You gotta set the course. Kids, little- even little kids wanna know what the hell's expected of them, right?

Joe Rogan 17:28 I'll tell you one thing.

Mike Baker 17:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:28 Reports from the front lines-

Mike Baker 17:30 Mm.

Joe Rogan 17:30 ... of kids in high school today.

Mike Baker 17:32 Oh.

Joe Rogan 17:32 That woke shit's out the window. That word retard comes flying-

Mike Baker 17:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:36 ... out of these kids' mouths. They're- they're bringing that back strong.

Mike Baker 17:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:40 They are bringing that back strong.

Mike Baker 17:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:42 I'll tell you, that woke thing, it got into college, it ... And then the high school kids, the ones coming up now-

Mike Baker 17:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:47 ... they are rejecting it.

Mike Baker 17:49 I 100% agree with you, and I- and I know that because, um, our youngest, uh, uh, Mugsy, he's, like, what, 12 years old now. And so he's in seventh grade, and he- it was in the complete blast zone of woke, right?

Joe Rogan 18:03 Mm.

Mike Baker 18:03 The c- And- and, like, the oldest one who's, you know, 16, he kinda had some of it. The middle one, again, didn't care. He was like, uh, you know, "Fuck you. You don't play ball, so I'm not paying attention to you."

Joe Rogan 18:12 (laughs)

Mike Baker 18:12 And, um ... But the youngest one was in the complete firing z- you know, fire zone of this- this- this- this woke culture.... and you'll never meet a more (laughs) conservative, sexist kid in your life.

Joe Rogan 18:25 (laughs)

Mike Baker 18:25 'Cause he's just like, I... Y- he'll come back and he'll tell us some stories from his, his school, which is a great school, but it's, it's pretty woke, it's pretty liberal, right? You got, you got kids walking around as furries. You got-

Joe Rogan 18:35 No.

Mike Baker 18:36 ... a lot of multicolored hair, you got all sorts of things going on there.

Joe Rogan 18:39 (laughs)

Mike Baker 18:39 And, uh, and he'll come back and tell us stories and he's just like, "I just don't understand what the hell's happened." And so-

Joe Rogan 18:44 Because he works hard at a sport.

Mike Baker 18:46 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:46 And that's what you get from a lot of people that work hard at sports, people that value hard work. And people that value hard work tend to be more conservative and-

Mike Baker 18:52 I think so, yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:52 ... more less inclined to indulge people on their mental illness, you know? "Oh, you're a cat? No, you're not. You have cat ears on."

Mike Baker 19:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:00 "They don't even look like a cat. You don't even have a good costume on."

Mike Baker 19:04 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:04 Like, you're not tricking people in the dark, okay?

Mike Baker 19:07 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:07 Shut the fuck up, you're not a cat.

Mike Baker 19:09 Yeah, you don't... Yeah, no, and you're-

Joe Rogan 19:10 You're just 12-

Mike Baker 19:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:11 ... and really confused, and I get it.

Mike Baker 19:13 Yeah. He ca- he came home one day and he said, he said some girl turned around, dressed as a cat, and kicked him, right?

Joe Rogan 19:20 Okay.

Mike Baker 19:20 Because she thought he had pulled her tail, and then apparently she hissed at him and walked away. And he was like, "I didn't fucking pull her tail."

Joe Rogan 19:27 Oh my God, she hissed at him?

Mike Baker 19:28 "I don't want anything to do with her." Yeah. So-

Joe Rogan 19:30 She hissed at him?

Mike Baker 19:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:32 Jesus Christ, d- this is so indulgent. That's so crazy.

Mike Baker 19:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:36 You know what's interesting, is like, Tucker Carlson has a very... had a very good point when he talked about, um, the difference between d- different dysphorias. Like, uh, body dysphoria for like anorexia versus gender dysphoria. And he said when a child has body dysphoria and they think they're fat, you don't tell them, "Oh yeah, you are fat."

Mike Baker 19:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:53 No, you help them. You say, "No, you're not fat. This is just a mental disorder."

Mike Baker 19:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:57 But when someone says, "I'm a boy," you say, "Oh, you are a boy."

Mike Baker 20:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:01 You don't say-

Mike Baker 20:02 Look at you.

Joe Rogan 20:02 ... "Oh sweetie, your name is Dorothy, and-"

Mike Baker 20:05 Yeah, "Shall we go dr- uh, uh, shopping for dresses?"

Joe Rogan 20:08 This is crazy. Dorothy, why did I come up with Dorothy?

Mike Baker 20:09 Yeah. Dorothy?

Joe Rogan 20:09 Are people still naming their kid Dorothy?

Mike Baker 20:10 I don't think... I think it's... No.

Joe Rogan 20:12 I hope they are. Bring it back, it's a beautiful name.

Mike Baker 20:12 I think Dorothy, Carol... Nobody names their kids Carol.

Joe Rogan 20:15 It's a beautiful name. Those are beautiful names.

Mike Baker 20:17 Dot.

Joe Rogan 20:17 There's nothing wrong with Dorothy.

Mike Baker 20:18 They... That was the nickname for Dorothy, was Dot.

Joe Rogan 20:21 Oh yeah.

Mike Baker 20:21 I know that 'cause I know a Dorothy and-

Joe Rogan 20:22 That's right.

Mike Baker 20:22 ... she goes by Dot.

Joe Rogan 20:24 That's right.

Mike Baker 20:24 Yeah. People are like, "What the fuck?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:26 How bizarre, Dot.

Mike Baker 20:27 Oh God.

Joe Rogan 20:28 How bizarre.

Mike Baker 20:29 Yeah. Uh-

Joe Rogan 20:29 That's a weird one.

Mike Baker 20:31 So... But I... You're right, it's, it's the indulgence. It's... And again, look, everybody... Fine, do what you wanna do. I don't need to go along with it, I don't need to celebrate it, I don't need to... You know. And that's... But that's what's expected. It went past like maybe I'm, I'm a little bit different, I'm gonna go through a phase in life. Now it's like, I'm going through a phase and you better fucking well accept it, right?

Joe Rogan 20:50 It's also, there's-

Mike Baker 20:51 And celebrate it.

Joe Rogan 20:52 There's like a value, a social value, to having anxiety, there's a social value to what you would call childhood trauma, you know?

Mike Baker 21:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:01 Or a social value to like everybody has PTSD from like... It could be from like high school, it could be like from minor stuff.

Mike Baker 21:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:08 But it's, it's looked at as, "Oh, we have to be c-... You know, we have to be considerate of someone's past." No, everybody's got trauma.

Mike Baker 21:17 Everybody. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:17 That's part of life. But the, the, the c-... The answer is not to overindulge every single aspect of everyone's ideas so that you do let a kid wear a fucking tail and ears and run around the high school-

Mike Baker 21:31 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:31 ... and, and be a freak. 'Cause like that's not good either.

Mike Baker 21:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:35 That's not healthy.

Mike Baker 21:36 Well, it's... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:36 This is crazy.

Mike Baker 21:37 It's not healthy and it's, and it's confusing for those kids too, right? I mean, I, I-

Joe Rogan 21:41 For everybody.

Mike Baker 21:41 ... honestly believe if you, if you address it properly, right, and you, and you deal with it, it's long term better health for that individual, right? Which is what you want, right?

Joe Rogan 21:50 100%.

Mike Baker 21:50 You want... Everybody wants that.

Joe Rogan 21:52 Yeah.

Mike Baker 21:52 And... You know. But we've, we've got... I don't, I don't understand it.

Joe Rogan 21:54 Now if you wanna go to a f-... Once you're a grown adult and you got your own job and you pay for your own apartment and you wanna go to a furry convention, God bless you.

Mike Baker 22:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:02 God bless you.

Mike Baker 22:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:03 I just don't think you should be able to wear a fucking tail in school and hiss at people.

Mike Baker 22:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:07 That just seems... That seems silly.

Mike Baker 22:09 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:10 It seems silly.

Mike Baker 22:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:10 Also, my friend's son goes to a school where you can't wear hats. So you can't wear hats in class, but kids can wear like fucking duck ears or... Duck, ducks don't have ears. Like... (laughs)

Mike Baker 22:22 Don't they? How do they hear?

Joe Rogan 22:24 They have... They're, they're like... They don't stick out, though.

Mike Baker 22:25 Oh, okay. Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:26 When I s-... I was coming up with a stupid animal. For some reason duck.

Mike Baker 22:29 Beck, you know...

Joe Rogan 22:30 That's how you know I'm not invested in this idea.

Mike Baker 22:32 I think a duck with ears would be a good-looking duck. Um, but yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:35 Yeah, fucking dog ears or cat ears or whatever the fuck you think you are.

Mike Baker 22:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:38 Raccoon, stop.

Mike Baker 22:39 Stop. Our boys' schools, they can't...

Joe Rogan 22:40 It's silly.

Mike Baker 22:40 We can't wear hats either, our boys' schools.

Joe Rogan 22:41 Yeah, they can't wear hats, but they can wear these stupid fucking ears, is my point.

Mike Baker 22:45 Yeah. You know what-

Joe Rogan 22:46 It's like a headband, I guess, or, you know, one of them...

Mike Baker 22:48 This time of year is a great time of year. It's a great time of year because, speaking of hats and everything, is that, um, this time of year is, is, is, uh, crew cut, flat top season.

Joe Rogan 22:57 Oh.

Mike Baker 22:58 So the youngest one, Mugsy, went ahead and... Uh, the other day and got himself a, a buzz cut.

Joe Rogan 23:02 Nice.

Mike Baker 23:03 It's nice. There was... I... We used to go, all my brothers and I, we knew it was... Summer was approaching when my dad would say, "Okay, here we go." And they... We, we had a home, uh, clipper kit, right?

Joe Rogan 23:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike Baker 23:13 And, uh, there was something great about that flat top, that crew cut, right? And so anyway, he's got his, he's got his crew cut going on and, uh, I suspect he's the only one in this entire school that's got this. And it's a good look for him, right? Um, and it also... You know, it, it... I, I... Again, I think there's, there's so much happening in the school in terms of the way kids are, are... What's the word I'm looking for? Coddled, right?

Joe Rogan 23:40 Oh.

Mike Baker 23:40 That, you know... I feel proud about Mugsy 'cause he, he comes walking into school and there's no mistaking like... This kid is not, (laughs) this kid is not angsty, he's not worried about anything, right? He's, uh, he's got the crew cut going on. Yeah. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 23:53 This, uh, this is a very unique challenge for these kids to get through this bullshit-

Mike Baker 23:58 Oh God.

Joe Rogan 23:58 ... and come out on the other end know- understanding that no one's coming to save you, you're responsible for yourself and life and you gotta get after it.

Mike Baker 24:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:06 You gotta actually do something. If you want a successful, happy life, you have to be engaged in some sort of a pursuit, something that you enjoy. Whatever the fuck it is, find it, go for it. Hard work is important. The world really does operate on a meritocracy except in corrupt situations.

Mike Baker 24:24 But it's also a battlefield, right? For these kids. It's a minefield, is probably a better way to put it.

Joe Rogan 24:27 Minefield, yeah.

Mike Baker 24:28 Because... So you've got... Yes, you've got, you got the kids... You want them to do all those things, right? Play sports, be involved in hobbies, activities, whatever it is.

Joe Rogan 24:35 Yeah.

Mike Baker 24:35 Stay busy, focus on your grades, be balanced, be nice to people. Um, but they're walking through this minefield. Every day there's a potential for them, right? To, to upset somebody who's looking to be upset. And the... And I'm talking about 12, 13, 14, 15-year-old kids, right?

Joe Rogan 24:52 Yeah.

Mike Baker 24:52 Who are looking to be insulted, right?

Joe Rogan 24:54 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 24:55 And, and very quickly...... use the system that's been put in place, right? Which caters to them, right? And so it is, you know... And, and, and, you know, my boys, you know, have run afoul of that system a couple of times for, you know-

Joe Rogan 25:09 It's lunacy.

Mike Baker 25:09 ... maybe speaking their mind.

Joe Rogan 25:12 Maybe not saying, calling someone a "them."

Mike Baker 25:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:14 Not saying... Addressing someone as a plural.

Mike Baker 25:16 Yeah. I-

Joe Rogan 25:18 One of my kids went with a they/them, went to school with a they/them. And this girl wore fucking makeup. She wore makeup and dresses, but she said she was nonbinary and she would get upset if someone didn't call her a "they" or a "them."

Mike Baker 25:29 How old at the time?

Joe Rogan 25:30 11? 12?

Mike Baker 25:31 Oh, God. 12? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:33 12, I guess. Yeah.

Mike Baker 25:34 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 25:34 What the fuck, man? (laughs)

Mike Baker 25:37 Were you worried... Were you worried about that sort of thing when you were 11 years old?

Joe Rogan 25:41 I didn't even know it was a thing.

Mike Baker 25:43 No.

Joe Rogan 25:43 I, I don't think I realized it was a thing until I was 50.

Mike Baker 25:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:47 I never heard of nonbinary. I mean, I would imagine that there are people that are asexual, they're not interested in attr- uh, uh, uh, physical affection. They're probably on the spectrum. God bless you.

Mike Baker 25:57 But is that what... Is that what nonbinary means?

Joe Rogan 25:59 N- No.

Mike Baker 25:59 Okay.

Joe Rogan 25:59 But that's, like, asexual.

Mike Baker 26:01 Asexual, I get. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:02 But when you say you're not a boy or a girl... Okay. If you were a puppy-

Mike Baker 26:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:08 ... and I wanted a boy puppy or a girl puppy, which one would you be? I know you're not a puppy.

Mike Baker 26:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:14 You know, like, this is the thing with the Supreme Court justice, with, um, Ketanji-

Mike Baker 26:18 Oh.

Joe Rogan 26:18 ... Brown Jackson-

Mike Baker 26:19 Jackson. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:20 ... who said she's not a biologist. They asked her, "What is a woman?" She said, "I'm not a biologist."

Mike Baker 26:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:25 Right. But you're a woman, so how about take a shot at it?

Mike Baker 26:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:30 Like, if I brought you a puppy, how do you know if it's a boy dog or a girl dog? And can we use that same judgment for humans?

Mike Baker 26:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:37 Is that possible? Isn't it true, in the majority of cases, that a woman has ovaries and a vagina and they can have babies, for the most part?

Mike Baker 26:45 Yeah. Yeah, for the most part. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:47 Yeah.

Mike Baker 26:47 I mean, uh, well, just try, uh, to, to watch people, like, just lose their minds. Try asking somebody like that, you know, "Is there a difference-

Joe Rogan 26:53 Imagine asking that-

Mike Baker 26:53 ... between a, a, a man and a woman?"

Joe Rogan 26:55 ... to a Supreme Court justice 20 years ago.

Mike Baker 26:57 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:57 Imagine if Ruth Bader Ginsburg 20 years ago-

Mike Baker 26:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:59 ... somebody asked her... She would go, "Shut the fuck up with these stupid questions."

Mike Baker 27:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:03 "I'm here on the goddamn Supreme Court to get shit done, okay? I'm not here to hear-"

Mike Baker 27:09 Ugh.

Joe Rogan 27:09 "... What, what did you ask me?"

Mike Baker 27:11 Ugh. God.

Joe Rogan 27:11 "What a woman is. Why don't you ask me what paint is? Now ask me what tires are. Now, now how about a bunch of other shit?"

Mike Baker 27:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:17 "What's a pencil? Shut the fuck up."

Mike Baker 27:19 Yeah. But it's also-

Joe Rogan 27:20 What are we doing?

Mike Baker 27:20 It's, uh, but it's, it's university administrators. It's, it's anybody-

Joe Rogan 27:23 Right.

Mike Baker 27:23 ... in a position of leadership who's afraid of getting bullied, right?

Joe Rogan 27:26 Right.

Mike Baker 27:27 And so th- nobody wants to state the obvious. It w- We went through the whole pandemic with one side screaming, "Believe the science," right?

Joe Rogan 27:34 Yeah.

Mike Baker 27:34 And then now they're like, "Well, I, I... No, you know, it depends on the context of whether a man and a woman are different." You're thinking-

Joe Rogan 27:39 (laughs)

Mike Baker 27:39 Look, you can, you, again, do whatever you want to do, but if you're, if you're, uh, a girl, but you identify as a boy, then you're a girl identifying as a boy and vice versa, right? That doesn't seem complicated to me.

Joe Rogan 27:51 Also-

Mike Baker 27:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:51 ... if you want us to trust the science, you got to make the science trustworthy. You can't leave the science in the hand of corporations that stand to profit if the science reflects one thing or the other. You can't do that.

Mike Baker 28:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:04 Because they do it, they've done it forever. They've been fined for it. You know they do it. You know it's standard practice. You know that they run multiple tests and multiple studies. And they'll throw out the ones that don't show any positive results, and they finagle the studies to show some kind of fugazi positive thing.

Mike Baker 28:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:23 And then they'll start prescribing it to people.

Mike Baker 28:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:25 And they do it for money. You know they do it for money.

Mike Baker 28:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:27 Everybody knows they do it for money. So shut the fuck up about this science thing until you could sort the science out, until you know the sci-... Unless you have a third-party, non-biased, where there's not a revolving door-

Mike Baker 28:40 Right.

Joe Rogan 28:40 ... between the, the, the government organization and the pharmaceutical drug companies, which we know there is, and we know that they know there is, so we know that they know where the fucking bread is buttered, and they know how to get things through, and then looky here, he works for Moderna now.

Mike Baker 28:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:56 Looky do.

Mike Baker 28:57 Eli Lilly.

Joe Rogan 28:57 There he... Oh, yeah.

Mike Baker 28:58 Oh, my God, look. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:59 Looky do.

Mike Baker 28:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:59 GlaxoSmithKline just hired him.

Mike Baker 29:01 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:02 You know? I mean, look, I'm not... Everybody should make money. I'm glad pharmaceutical drug companies exist. They make awesome stuff.

Mike Baker 29:07 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:08 But you got to be honest and you... Don't hit me with that "trust the science" shit if you haven't made the science trustworthy. Stop.

Mike Baker 29:15 Yeah. And it, it also can't be a moving line, right?

Joe Rogan 29:17 Right.

Mike Baker 29:18 Either you do or you don't, right? And, and, and it can't be based on where you fall politically, right?

Joe Rogan 29:24 Right.

Mike Baker 29:24 Which seems to be how it works, right? And so-

Joe Rogan 29:26 100%.

Mike Baker 29:27 It's a whenev- whenever it's, uh... Yeah. I... Yeah, uh-

Joe Rogan 29:29 Yeah, we trust some science-

Mike Baker 29:30 God.

Joe Rogan 29:30 ... just not chromosomes.

Mike Baker 29:31 Not... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:32 Yeah.

Mike Baker 29:33 Yeah, when I was-

Joe Rogan 29:33 That chromosome stuff is, is, is fascist.

Mike Baker 29:35 Yeah, it's very subjective.

Joe Rogan 29:36 It's very fascist.

Mike Baker 29:37 Very subjective. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:38 It's very fascist. I wanted to ask you this before I forget.

Mike Baker 29:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:40 When you were, uh, working for the agency, did you guys... I know that there is a program where they would use special effects makeup-

Mike Baker 29:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:49 ... to change someone's appearance.

Mike Baker 29:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:51 Have you ever seen that in person?

Mike Baker 29:53 Oh, yes. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:54 How does it look?

Mike Baker 29:55 Yeah. It, um... Well, it, it gets better all the time, right? Because-

Joe Rogan 29:58 So if I go to a concert, like, could I sneak into-

Mike Baker 30:01 Sure. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:02 ... sneak into a concert with a rubber nose?

Mike Baker 30:03 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:05 Get me a nice blonde wig.

Mike Baker 30:06 Yeah, yeah. That's what we used to do. We'd hand out rubber noses and, uh, googly eyes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:10 (laughs)

Mike Baker 30:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:10 Who in the... (laughs)

Mike Baker 30:11 So then nobody would see us coming.

Joe Rogan 30:13 Like Clark Kent.

Mike Baker 30:14 Uh, yeah. No, we have a disguise, uh, unit, uh, at the agency, and I'm, I'm super proud of them. And I, I, I was the benefit of their expertise on numerous occasions because you might guess, I mean, I, I'd spent almost all my time with the agency overseas in operations, and there's some places where I don't blend, right? In.

Joe Rogan 30:33 Crazy.

Mike Baker 30:33 And so... I know. I know.

Joe Rogan 30:34 So they blended you just like on Team America: World Police?

Mike Baker 30:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:37 Remember?

Mike Baker 30:37 Yes.

Joe Rogan 30:38 Bro, should have pictured that.

Mike Baker 30:39 One of the, one of the, one of the greatest...

Joe Rogan 30:41 (laughs) What, what a, what a creep.

Mike Baker 30:41 Uh, Hans Pricks. Hans Pricks.

Joe Rogan 30:44 How good is that movie?

Mike Baker 30:45 Yeah, that's a... It's the greatest movie ever.

Joe Rogan 30:47 They're the best.

Mike Baker 30:47 Yeah. When they, when they-

Joe Rogan 30:48 Trey Parker and Matt Stone are the fucking best.

Mike Baker 30:50 Oh, my God. When they did the puppet sex-

Joe Rogan 30:51 Or Matt Stone and Trey Parker? Did I switch their names?

Mike Baker 30:53 Yeah. Matt... Uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:54 Yeah.

Mike Baker 30:54 The puppet sex scene, when they thought, "Okay, a few minutes of this and it's making people uncomfortable. Let's keep going with it," right?

Joe Rogan 31:01 (laughs) Well, you know the original's far longer?

Mike Baker 31:03 Just keep going. Yeah. God, it was so funny.

Joe Rogan 31:04 The original, she poops on his chest or he poops on her chest and she pees on him or he pees on her.

Mike Baker 31:09 Yeah. God, they're brilliant.

Joe Rogan 31:09 One or the other.

Mike Baker 31:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:10 They'll go, "This is a disguise." (laughs)

Mike Baker 31:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:12 (laughs)

Mike Baker 31:12 I'm in jihad.

Narrator 31:14 (laughs)

31:14 (speaking Dari)

Mike Baker 31:16 (laughs)

Narrator 31:16 (laughs)

31:16 (speaking Dari)

Mike Baker 31:24 Oh, shit.

Narrator 31:25 (laughs)

31:25 Come on, Gary. Act.

31:27 Act.

Mike Baker 31:27 You have the power.

Narrator 31:28 (Laughs) (gun cocks)

31:31 (speaking Dari)

31:32 (laughs)

31:33 (speaking Dari)

Mike Baker 31:38 Oh, man, this is taking me-

Narrator 31:42 Oh, yeah.

Mike Baker 31:42 This takes me back. Oh.

Joe Rogan 31:46 He's an actor, bro.

Mike Baker 31:47 God, it's so good. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:48 He saved them. He saved them being an actor.

Mike Baker 31:50 One of the greatest, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:51 That's a fucking amazing movie.

Mike Baker 31:51 That really- that really takes me back to the Operational days too. Um-

Joe Rogan 31:54 Such an amazing movie.

Mike Baker 31:55 Yeah. The disguise unit is fantastic and-

Joe Rogan 31:59 Okay. So here's a video.

Mike Baker 31:59 Oh yeah, that's Joan Mendez, yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:01 So this is from-

Mike Baker 32:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:02 ... the disguise unit? Wow.

Mike Baker 32:02 Yeah, she was-

Joe Rogan 32:03 Look at her pores.

Mike Baker 32:03 ... she was there, she was, uh, you know, senior officer there. Um...

Joe Rogan 32:07 Did you ever- were you ever talking to someone and you go, "I think this motherfucker's wearing a disguise."

Mike Baker 32:11 No, but I've talked to people wearing disguises. I- I've-

Joe Rogan 32:14 Wow.

Mike Baker 32:14 ... I've had the full overhead masks.

Joe Rogan 32:15 Look how good that is with sunglasses on.

Mike Baker 32:18 Um...

Joe Rogan 32:18 With sunglasses on, that's crazy.

Mike Baker 32:19 I never did wear the, uh, the, uh, monkey outfit. Uh-

Joe Rogan 32:22 Ew.

Mike Baker 32:23 Yeah, we didn't do that one.

Joe Rogan 32:25 But look how good that looks.

Mike Baker 32:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:27 That's insane.

Mike Baker 32:28 And here's the thing about this, is it... 'Cause what they did was they went- they went to Hollywood, um, and there's been this- this liaison for years, years and years, between the agency and- and Hollywood when it comes to special effects, when it comes to makeup. And, again, and- and it's horses for courses. So sometimes you need a light disguise, right? I'm not giving away any secrets. This is- this stuff is all out there and- and, um, so, you know, you get- get a light disguise, it's for a brief, you know, cover for action, you know, there's not- you're not gonna be engaged in the-

Joe Rogan 32:56 So what would be-

Mike Baker 32:56 ... sometimes-

Joe Rogan 32:57 What would be a light disguise?

Mike Baker 32:59 You know, like a rubber nose. Um-

Joe Rogan 33:01 Ew.

Mike Baker 33:01 Yeah, it could be- it could be like a wig, it could be, uh, you know, facial hair, uh, change of glasses could be, um, just a- a change of hair color. Um, in reality, if you're out on the street, and I'll- I'll probably disappear down a rabbit hole and people will be like, "Oh, this is fucking boring," but if you're out on the street and you're just- you're in a surveillance exercise, say, right? And you're covering a target, then all you gotta do is, you're just talking about switching up your- your look a little bit. It could be a hat, right? It could be-

Joe Rogan 33:28 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 33:28 ... a coat, it could be a backpack. Whatever you're doing. So it doesn't have to be much. And then you got the full other side of the spectrum, which could be a full overhead mask, right? Which is, that's a process, right? You gotta... I mean, it's- it's just like with Hollywood, I mean, there's no difference. Um, and the key is, when you're out on the street and you're in disguise, nobody is thinking, "That person's in disguise." Right? So, it's dependent upon your bearing. I've seen people in disguise who- who don't pull it off well, right? Because they- they're worried, like, "Oh, I'm in disguise. People are thinking I'm in disguise." Nobody gives a shit. Everybody's worried about their own little bubble out there, right?

Joe Rogan 34:02 So it's your- your body movements-

Mike Baker 34:04 It's-

Joe Rogan 34:04 ... and your body language.

Mike Baker 34:05 Right. It's your- it's your bearing. How do you- how do you comport yourself? How do you- how do you carry yourself? Are you confident in it? And also, do you understand that the vast majori- majority of people out there, no matter where you are, right? Fourth world country, US, wherever, they're not thinking about it, right?

Joe Rogan 34:21 Right.

Mike Baker 34:21 And I've- I've had extended conversations with people in disguise where, you know, they don't- they don't give a fuck, they don't know, and it's- it is remarkable how good they are at- at this. But that- that unit is fantastic.

Joe Rogan 34:35 Did they give you like a rubber muscle suit ever?

Mike Baker 34:38 No, I never got a fat suit. No.

Joe Rogan 34:39 What about a muscle suit?

Mike Baker 34:40 I- but I know, one- one of the guys I worked with, he got a fat suit.

Joe Rogan 34:43 Really?

Mike Baker 34:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:44 How-

Mike Baker 34:44 Chased his weight. Because that's- that's also one of those things where, you know, you- you-

Joe Rogan 34:48 Yeah.

Mike Baker 34:48 ... you're looking to, right? I mean, you're just-

Joe Rogan 34:50 Sure.

Mike Baker 34:50 ... looking to alter your profile, and weight is a big part of it.

Joe Rogan 34:53 And what does the fat suit entail? Is it like a- a skin one where it looks real or is it just like, uh...

Mike Baker 34:58 Well, no, it's mostly, it's under your clothes, right?

Joe Rogan 35:00 So it's just...

Mike Baker 35:00 And so it's like a, it's padding basically.

Joe Rogan 35:02 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 35:02 But it's quick. You have to be able to do this quickly. Look, I- I've been on the streets of- of, you know, capital cities around the world where I'm on a motorcycle and, you know, I've got- I've got a helmet on, that's a pretty good disguise. But you gotta get off that motorcycle at some point and walk the streets or go somewhere, whatever.

Joe Rogan 35:17 Yeah.

Mike Baker 35:17 And so you- you've gotta be able to do these things quickly, right?

Joe Rogan 35:19 Right.

Mike Baker 35:19 Or you're- you're... So, again, not- not giving away any sources or methods, but I will say the disguise unit and- and, uh, Mrs. Mendez there, who they just showed briefly, uh, she ran that operation to a great person and a great, uh, a- a great part of the agency. And it is... But it is acting, right?

Joe Rogan 35:37 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 35:38 There's no different.

Joe Rogan 35:38 So did- this is what I was gonna get to. Did- did they teach you how to walk casual? Did they teach you what to see in someone that's tense?

Mike Baker 35:46 Well, yeah. I mean, you- you spend a lot of time, um... Yeah. Yeah, you do. Uh, that's- that's- that's a good way to put it, I guess. You- you spend a lot of time, um, observing people, right?

Joe Rogan 35:58 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 35:58 And- and understanding... And- and part of that is you're trying to get a sense of, um... If you're trying to get a sense of whether they're lying, you're watching for certain things. You're watching for their- their body movement and the way they're behaving and the things that they're saying. A lot of times they're just, they're- they're, uh, they're not consistent with what they're saying. So that's not necessarily, you know, watching their movements, but, um, a lot of times if you're trying to, uh, get on side with somebody, right? So if I'm- if I'm trying to develop a relationship with the deputy foreign minister of whatever from some country, right? Because they've got inside information on their nuke program, then I'll spend a lot of time thinking about and watching and observing that person, and eventually I'm mirroring that person's activities, right? So, you know, if you're sitting across from somebody and- and- and they- they lean on the desk, right? And they- they start talking to you or they move in a little bit closer, well then I'm gonna do the same thing. I'm gonna come in. It- it-

Joe Rogan 36:52 Yeah.

Mike Baker 36:52 They don't know it, they don't understand it, but it- it makes them more comfortable, right? So if you start mirroring their- their actions, their activities, that's just one of those things. It's a- it's a- it's a small part of it, but it's one of them.

Joe Rogan 37:02 My- my buddy told me that when you see people like leaning against a wall-

Mike Baker 37:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:06 ... that we see people in foreign countries leaning against a wall-... nine times outta 10 they're American, like, with leaning, like, one shoulder against a wall-

Mike Baker 37:14 (sighs)

Joe Rogan 37:14 ... he said it's a very American thing to do.

Mike Baker 37:16 (sniffs)

Joe Rogan 37:16 Like, lean against doorways with one shoulder or lean against a wall with one shoulder.

Mike Baker 37:21 Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make a l- lot of book on that. I mean, 'cause, you know, i- i- i- it's a Western thing more than just an American thing.

Joe Rogan 37:27 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 37:27 I've seen, you know, I'd spent a long time in, in Europe and, (gasps) you know, Italians will lean against the wall. (laughs) You know-

Joe Rogan 37:32 Right.

Mike Baker 37:32 ... the Spaniards will lean against the wall. But it is a Western thing.

Joe Rogan 37:35 (clears throat) Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 37:35 So, you know, if you're walking the streets of Vladivostok or wherever, then you have to be aware of it. It also... Little things like how you eat, right? How you hold your fork and knife. I mean, it could be, it could be anything that could, you know, um, show out as a certain cultural, um, handle. So-

Joe Rogan 37:51 What is the way that s- different people hold their fork?

Mike Baker 37:54 Well, um, you know, um, uh, y- you know, y- if you hold your... Like, if you hold your knife here and you hold your fork here, right, and you just keep eating with this hand. You don't switch the, the fork over to your, your dominant hand, right?

Joe Rogan 38:06 Uh-huh.

Mike Baker 38:06 That's an interesting take and, and, I mean, like, if you're over in the UK, you see it all the time, right? People just kinda eating like this, right?

Joe Rogan 38:13 Right.

Mike Baker 38:13 Just pushing, pushing their food onto their fork.

Narrator 38:16 There's 15 things that stand out. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:17 Americans are known for leaning on things while standing still. Aha.

Mike Baker 38:20 Aha.

Joe Rogan 38:21 This is a habit the CIA even trains. Aha.

Mike Baker 38:23 Aha.

Joe Rogan 38:24 C- TRA- CI- CIA trains Americans to unlearn when training to be a spy. Don't worry, we can still stand down on our own two feet. Americans are always eating on the go. One person living in Europe was asked if Amer- if they were American because they were eating a bagel while walking. Hey, we gotta fuel up for all that small talk. Americans are known for being loud and friendly, and our accents are a dead giveaway. The, well, that's duh.

Mike Baker 38:46 Well, yes, that duh. (laughs) Okay.

Joe Rogan 38:47 Americans love small talk and are super friendly. Okay. Americans are known for wanting ice in their water, a habit that might seem as strange in countries where ice is not commonly consumed.

Mike Baker 38:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:56 Americans often greet people with, "Hey, how are you?" The greeting may be seen as too friendly or even mocking in some cultures. (clears throat)

Mike Baker 39:03 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:03 Americans are known for leaving tips.

Mike Baker 39:05 Are they? Yeah, okay, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:06 Yeah, it's true. Americans have a reputation for being confident. Okay.

Mike Baker 39:10 Even if you're walking-

Joe Rogan 39:10 Even if you're walking in the wrong direction.

Mike Baker 39:12 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:12 Americans are known for enjoying sweet treats for breakfast, a habit that may be seen as strange in other cultures where breakfast is typically a savory meal. Americans are often seen as being obsessed with their appearance and constantly checking their appearance in mirrors. It's 'cause we're the shit.

Mike Baker 39:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:25 Americans are known for wearing tactical sunglasses. (laughs)

Mike Baker 39:29 (laughs)

Narrator 39:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:29 A style that we've seen as unusual in other countries. Okay. Uh, Americans are known for saying "y'all."

Mike Baker 39:34 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 39:35 Okay?

Mike Baker 39:35 Okay.

Joe Rogan 39:35 Americans are known for their love of baseball caps.

Mike Baker 39:37 Yup.

Joe Rogan 39:38 Especially when worn backwards. Americans are in love for the l- their love of saying "the US" or "America" when asked if they're from, even though these terms refer to the entire country. Americans are known for their friendly grins when making eye ta- okay.

Narrator 39:52 Yeah.

Mike Baker 39:53 Yeah.

Narrator 39:53 That's the only we're doing but-

Mike Baker 39:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 39:53 Yeah. It's most... Basically just the lean against the wall thing that seems odd.

Mike Baker 39:56 Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, that's interesting but I... Yeah. I've, I've, I've seen a lot of leaners in my time. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:03 Yeah.

Mike Baker 40:03 So, but yeah, uh, uh, those, all those things it's good to be aware of, but, um, y-

Joe Rogan 40:09 You were saying with the fork and knife thing that, that-

Mike Baker 40:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:11 ... the Europeans keep a fork in one hand, a knife in the other. They ki- and they don't switch hands.

Mike Baker 40:14 Yeah.

Narrator 40:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:15 What, what people switch hands?

Mike Baker 40:16 Um, I've seen that a lot here in the States where people, like, they'll eat. They'll, they'll cut and they'll put down, they'll eat and m- maybe it's just because I hang around with a lot of posh people. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 40:25 Yeah.

Mike Baker 40:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:25 They seem like bitches.

Mike Baker 40:26 Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

Narrator 40:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:26 They'll sound like... That's a bitch move.

Mike Baker 40:27 I'm not saying, I'm not saying they're not.

Narrator 40:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:29 Your left hand sucks so hard that you have to swap out-

Mike Baker 40:32 Swap out.

Joe Rogan 40:32 ... when you're gonna eat.

Mike Baker 40:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:33 And f- you're scared of the fork being on your left side.

Mike Baker 40:35 It's considered very, it's c- I think it's considered very, uh, it's e- etiquette.

Joe Rogan 40:37 Also, you're a bitch for not being able to cut your food with your left hand, too.

Mike Baker 40:40 I know.

Joe Rogan 40:41 Both those things make you a bitch. (laughs)

Mike Baker 40:42 Right. And it's just a lot easier if you... Also, if you just kinda push, you're pushing around-

Narrator 40:45 (coughs)

Mike Baker 40:45 ... right there like that.

Joe Rogan 40:46 Yeah.

Mike Baker 40:46 And I've... But then again, you know, you could do it either way.

Narrator 40:48 Right. Yeah.

Mike Baker 40:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:48 If you wanna eat quick, you got a two-hand thing. So just-

Narrator 40:50 Yeah. I found this magazine here that says that's an, that's an American style apparently, to hold the fork in your dominant hand-

Joe Rogan 40:55 Yeah.

Narrator 40:55 ... and switch.

Mike Baker 40:57 Hmm.

Narrator 40:57 So-

Mike Baker 40:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:58 That's the bitches o- of America.

Mike Baker 41:00 So let's say for a steak, for instance. Oh, look, there's even pictures.

Narrator 41:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:04 Yeah, it's like-

Mike Baker 41:04 There's pictures to explain this to us.

Narrator 41:06 How you cut too is a very-

Mike Baker 41:07 Yeah.

Narrator 41:07 ... zigzag style or something. I don't know. It's kind of interesting.

Joe Rogan 41:09 So fork goes back and forth. Now let's take a close look at the details. This is ridiculous that people are so focused. (laughs)

Narrator 41:16 (laughs)

Mike Baker 41:16 (laughs) Actually, that guy, that guy holding it like a dagger looks like my boys eating. Um-

Joe Rogan 41:20 I bet them, that dude's very boring in real life-

Mike Baker 41:22 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 41:22 ... or, or a serial killer.

Mike Baker 41:23 Yeah. Or, or an etiquette teacher.

Joe Rogan 41:25 Yeah.

Mike Baker 41:25 Um-

Joe Rogan 41:25 Either one.

Mike Baker 41:26 So, uh, but they dis- the disguise thing is, is fascinating and I've been, like I said, I mean, sometimes it can be very simple. You, you slap on... I know it sounds silly but you slap on a fake mustache but you're just changing your profile quickly, right?

Joe Rogan 41:38 Right.

Mike Baker 41:38 And-

Joe Rogan 41:39 Right.

Mike Baker 41:39 ... and so it doesn't... I will say there were times when you'd get a disguise kit and it would have a baseball cap in it and you'd go, "I don't, I don't think so." (laughs) I don't think 'cause we're overseas and probably not a baseball cap-

Joe Rogan 41:50 So you, so you have to make-

Mike Baker 41:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:51 J- So who's putting together these s- disguise kits for you?

Mike Baker 41:55 It's the, I mean, the, the outfit. Again, it's the, it's the disguise unit, uh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:58 And the disguise unit isn't aware of cultural differences and-

Mike Baker 42:01 Oh, no, they are. But I'm just saying in the old days-

Joe Rogan 42:03 Oh.

Mike Baker 42:03 ... 'cause I'm, I'm fairly old. But in the old days they'd throw in a ball cap and you think like-

Joe Rogan 42:06 Right.

Mike Baker 42:07 ... "Okay, well, all right."

Joe Rogan 42:07 You're giving it up here, kids.

Mike Baker 42:09 Yeah, yeah. So, um, but yeah. Hey, what do I know? Um-

Joe Rogan 42:14 So, is there any video of people wearing these disguises where we could see what they look like?

Narrator 42:18 I as- I found another video. That's what's trying to... I didn't want to click on the one-

Joe Rogan 42:20 I wanna see what it looks like.

Mike Baker 42:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:21 I wanna see how... 'Cause I saw one on Instagram but I don't know if it's real.

Narrator 42:24 This is the one at Wired. Same lady. I think here she transforms probably like the reporter.

Mike Baker 42:28 Yeah. Just imagine, again, and, and what are you doing? You're, you're... See?

Joe Rogan 42:33 So here's this lady.

Mike Baker 42:34 Right?

Joe Rogan 42:34 They gave her a mustache. They gave her some wacky hair. Wow. That's incredible. I don't know if she tricked me.

Mike Baker 42:49 No.

Narrator 42:50 Of the-

Mike Baker 42:50 No.

Narrator 42:50 ... what's going on in real life.

Joe Rogan 42:50 Of this.

Mike Baker 42:51 That one's not the, uh, that one's not the best one.

Joe Rogan 42:52 (laughs)

Narrator 42:52 It's not the best but that's-

Mike Baker 42:53 Yeah.

Narrator 42:54 Then that's also... Then if they brought up the fork and knife in the video. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:56 Which is interesting.

Mike Baker 42:57 Boy, they love that fork and knife thing.

Narrator 42:59 Holding a, holding a cigarette-

Mike Baker 43:00 Yeah.

Narrator 43:00 ... comes up in the video and then-

Joe Rogan 43:01 How you hold a cigarette?

Narrator 43:02 Yeah. Uh, it's very quick here. They just show like, um, uh, like the way you either between the fingers forward like that or pinching it.

Joe Rogan 43:08 Is that American? And who pinches it?

Narrator 43:11 I don't know. I've seen people here pinch it, so I don't-

Joe Rogan 43:13 Mm-hmm.Yeah.

Narrator 43:15 And it shows a- a guy doing a very quick thing, like he was explaining-

Joe Rogan 43:17 People that pinch it here, they probably like European music.

Narrator 43:19 So it goes from a suit to just, like, taking it off, putting on a hat, and now he's in disguise.

Mike Baker 43:26 See, and it can be that simple, right?

Joe Rogan 43:27 Right.

Mike Baker 43:27 I mean, it's... And- and particularly if you're in- in- in surveillance, or-

Joe Rogan 43:31 Right.

Mike Baker 43:31 ... you know, or if you're doing, you know, counter-surveillance, you gotta be aware of these things. Um-

Joe Rogan 43:36 Did you see (coughs) that I had a guest on the podcast that came with my, uh, friend Josh Dubin, who works with, uh, criminal reform and getting innocent people out of jail? So we had this guest that came on, and then, uh, after he was on the show, wound up killing somebody. Cut some dude's head off, and, uh-

Mike Baker 43:53 (clicks tongue) Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:54 Yes.

Mike Baker 43:55 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:55 Um, and the unfortunate surveillance footage, where he tried to wear a blonde wig and walk around.

Mike Baker 44:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:01 But he didn't realize... I think (fingers thump) he didn't realize, like, how good modern surveillance cameras are.

Mike Baker 44:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:07 It was like crystal-clear that this dude was wearing a fucking wig.

Mike Baker 44:12 God. Yeah, that was... Mm. Um, yeah. It's a hell of a story.

Joe Rogan 44:19 Crazy story.

Mike Baker 44:20 Uh, fucking hell.

Joe Rogan 44:20 I was trying to explain that to my daughter last night.

Mike Baker 44:22 Okay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:23 (laughs) This- this is what happened.

Mike Baker 44:24 (laughs) Oh, God. Yeah. I- that- that's interesting. You know, that- that video that you just showed...

Joe Rogan 44:30 (clears throat)

Mike Baker 44:30 'Cause I- I- I, uh... There's been some talk about the protests on campus, right? And the fact that all these (laughs) - all these outside agitators, activists, and then the students, the- the- the actual students, the ones that are actually affiliated with the university, most of them wearing masks, right?

Joe Rogan 44:44 Right.

Mike Baker 44:44 And, you know, I- part of it is... (sighs) I don't know. It- it's just-

Joe Rogan 44:49 They're- they're mentally ill.

Mike Baker 44:50 Yeah, they're mentally ill. It's a s- ah, God.

Joe Rogan 44:51 I pho- I photograph people every time I see them. I photographed one today.

Mike Baker 44:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:55 Saw somebody walking outside with a mask on, the dumb kind, too, the surgical glue stupid one?

Mike Baker 44:59 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:59 That doesn't do a goddamn thing.

Mike Baker 45:01 But this was- I think was- was a solidarity thing. They're all wearing masks. And part of it was also, I think, they were thinking they couldn't be identified.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Yeah.

Mike Baker 45:07 And then there's- there's a lot of talk about retinal scanning, right? So, how much of the face do you need in order to identify people, right?

Joe Rogan 45:14 How much do you n-

Mike Baker 45:14 And it's not-

Joe Rogan 45:15 Not much?

Mike Baker 45:15 ... much, right? Retinal scanning, it's not 100% accurate, so there's other things you have to do, but-

Joe Rogan 45:20 So would you be able to retinal scan that lady with that crazy outfit on?

Mike Baker 45:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:25 Just retinal scan her-

Mike Baker 45:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:26 ... and then none of that shit would work. The mustache also wouldn't work.

Mike Baker 45:28 Well, which is- which is... And that's... Yeah, that's a great point.

Joe Rogan 45:30 Now you got glue on your face for another- (laughs)

Mike Baker 45:33 (laughs) And that shit is tough to take off, too.

Joe Rogan 45:34 (laughs) Oh, that's gross.

Mike Baker 45:35 It's not good.

Joe Rogan 45:36 (laughs) .

Mike Baker 45:37 Um, so, uh, yeah. A- and that's a- that's a- it's a really good point, because now it's made the life of- of somebody who's working, uh, in operations a lot tougher, right?

Joe Rogan 45:46 Right.

Mike Baker 45:46 Because of the ability of... And it's gotta be a country where you're operating where they've got the resources and the technology, but it makes it a- a shit-ton tougher to get away with things, right? And I- as does the ability for communications intercepts and tracking of phones and- and all the other things. So, you know, while, uh, you know, it's- it's always the same story, right? Technology's got an upside and a downside. Um, but the- the face recognition, the retinal scanning, um, it's creating all sorts of problems from an operational perspective overseas. And here, of course, the problem is, you know, people are talking about civil liberties and invasion of privacy, and so you've got some students out there, and they're covered, and next thing you know, they're identified, right? Now they're suspended. In... You know. Uh, fine. Y- y- you know, you- y- yes.

Joe Rogan 46:32 Not only that, some of them aren't getting to graduate.

Mike Baker 46:34 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 46:34 This one girl, I was watching this video. They were, they just told her she couldn't graduate because she got arrested.

Mike Baker 46:40 Well, you know what? You- you- you... What do they say? You play stupid games-

Joe Rogan 46:45 Yeah, you win stupid prizes.

Mike Baker 46:45 ... you know? Yeah, so yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:46 They all think they're doing something great. They think they're going to fix it. It's- it's, you know, a lot of misplaced energy (taps desk) with tents.

Mike Baker 46:55 With tents. And with- with matching tents.

Joe Rogan 46:57 Yeah.

Mike Baker 46:57 And um, and that's, that's the part. Look, I (sighs) again, you know, hey, God bless the- the actual students who are out there, feeling like they're being a part of something. I get that. They're young people. Most of them are gormless, right? They're just saying whatever, right? This is, you know, this is their moment to shine. So they're excited. So they don't... And they, you know, most of them couldn't find Gaza on a- on a map of Gaza. So I think that, you know, that's- that's one side of it, right? And I can't, you know... Whatever. But it's the, it's the coordination of it all-

Joe Rogan 47:23 Right.

Mike Baker 47:23 ... by the various outside-

Joe Rogan 47:24 Right.

Mike Baker 47:24 ... groups and the activists and the funding of it, right? And the potential for that funding and the coordination to tie back to groups like Hamas or Hezbollah, which basically means you're tying back to the Iranian regime, right? Because they, that's the only reason those groups exist. But nobody seems curious about that because a lot of the media wanted to portray this as just like kids being kids. "Oh, look at it. This is their moment to shine-"

Joe Rogan 47:48 Right.

Mike Baker 47:48 "... as- as student activists."

Joe Rogan 47:50 Right.

Mike Baker 47:50 "And isn't it wonderful? And it's their Vietnam protests," and- and bullshit. Some of it... Okay, fine. So it's layered, right? So some of that's true. You got those kids that are just doing that. But there- there's the incuriosity of the media to say, "Well, what the hell is behind this?" Right? "And what groups?" Is it- is it students for Justice in Palestine? Is it, um, US Campaign for Palestinian Rights, Samidoun, right, which has connections back to Hamas? Um, there's an education for whatever, Just Peace in the Middle East. There's groups that have been actively engaging in this. And that's why you get the coordination of all of this, right? It's that... But nobody asks, "Okay, what's behind it?" "Oh, just students acting." No, it's not. It's- it's a coordinated effort. And then you look at those groups who are always active in this- in this realm, right? And always looking to, uh, have organizations disinvest from, uh, Israel or to, uh, promote causes that are anti-Israeli, right? And then you say, "Okay, well, who's funding it?" Right? So you look at these groups and you say, "Okay, where's the money coming from?" The money is always coming from the same places, right? The, uh, the Tides center, right? Which is part of the Tides Network, which gets significant funding, no surprise, from Soros' Open Society Foundation. Um, you get Westchester People's, whatever, Action Coalition. Um, so you get these groups and you get the legal support. So all these people, the activists who are getting arrested, they can turn to Palestine Legal, which provides-... legal support to the activists and the NGOs that are-

Joe Rogan 49:25 And who funds that?

Mike Baker 49:25 ... engaged in all this. Again, you get, they, they're getting their money-

Joe Rogan 49:28 (clears throat)

Mike Baker 49:28 ... from charities. A lot of times the charities don't know they're putting money into these groups, right? It g- it goes into the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, right? And the Rockefeller Brothers Fund provides money to these NGOs, you know, like Justice for, you know, Palestine or whatever. And then, uh... (sighs) And, and Rockefeller Brothers gets m- m- you know, funding from, uh, Soros Open Society Foundation as well.

Joe Rogan 49:52 That guy-

Mike Baker 49:53 That guy.

Joe Rogan 49:54 ... seems to be a bit of a problem.

Mike Baker 49:54 Right. Well, yeah. And now his kid is even more of an activist than George is, right?

Joe Rogan 49:58 Of course.

Mike Baker 49:58 I mean, his kid is, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:59 His kid inherited it.

Mike Baker 50:00 Kid inherited it. Right.

Joe Rogan 50:01 So he's gotta make up for the fact that he inherited it by being extra woke.

Mike Baker 50:05 Yeah. (laughs) And, and he is, right?

Joe Rogan 50:06 And extra guilty-

Mike Baker 50:07 Oh, God. F-

Joe Rogan 50:08 ... for having all those billions. You should feel guilty, you little fuck.

Mike Baker 50:11 Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:12 (laughs)

Mike Baker 50:13 God. How can you live with yourself, young Soros?

Joe Rogan 50:15 It's just that, what you're talking about, though, is a very important point, that this is not organic. And that-

Mike Baker 50:20 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 50:20 ... this is, this is what I was gonna get to earlier when I was talking about social media. W- how much do you think foreign governments have an influence on certain trends and certain things that people are talking and promoting and pushing and being a part of on social media?

Mike Baker 50:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:37 'Cause I think it's a, I think it's a big factor. I think it's a big factor with a lot of things, and I, I think it's a big factor with all this, the most insane woke shit. I think they push it as far as they can, so that the stuff that's not as insane that was insane just a couple years ago seems less insane now. It seems more palatable. And then they just keep moving the goalpost.

Mike Baker 50:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:58 And I think you can do that through social media with kids. You can kind of engineer what kids accept.

Mike Baker 51:04 Oh, uh, 100%. And, and the, the answer is, you know, how much do they do? They do a tremendous amount, right? Look, um, the Iranian regime, nobody's happier with these protests on campuses than the Iranian regime, right? And they've even come out. Uh, the foreign minister, uh, Khamenei himself, right, the Ayatollah, came out on his official (laughs) X page, yeah, who knew? And, uh, praises the protesters, and they talk about the oppression that the, the, and, and the violent tactics of the police, right, in suppressing protests, which is, which is crazy when you think about what the Iranian regime has done-

Joe Rogan 51:38 (laughs)

Mike Baker 51:38 ... to anybody who dares protest inside Iran. But, but, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:41 Yeah, they, they executed a world champion wrestler over there.

Mike Baker 51:43 Yeah, they, they constantly, right? And they're, they're s- they're trampling of all rights, not just women's rights. Everybody's rights, right? So, so it's bullshit, but people, y- you know, (sighs) I don't know. People buy it, I don't know how, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:57 They, they only have a peripheral understanding of the-

Mike Baker 51:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:59 ... workings.

Mike Baker 52:00 Yeah, so-

Joe Rogan 52:01 The inner workings of all this stuff.

Mike Baker 52:02 But then the Russians and the Chinese, they're all taking advantage of this as well, right? Chinese bots have been out there trolling around and, and promoting, um, the chaos, right? If you were to switch on, uh, television, right, in, in Moscow or, or in Tehran or, or in Beijing, you'll get a lot of coverage of these campus protests, right? This is i- this is ideal for them. It's exactly what they want, and it feeds into their larger narrative of trying to, um, discredit democracy and say what a, what a losing system it is, right? Capitalism. And so- (sighs) You know, but, uh, but again, people are incurious. They're busy. They're trying to just do their lives, whatever. They're not taking the time to sit and think, "Where am I getting my information from?"

Joe Rogan 52:43 Right.

Mike Baker 52:43 "What's the validity of this information?" And if they don't do that, you know, then to your earlier point, yeah, we're fucked.

Joe Rogan 52:50 Yeah.

Mike Baker 52:50 Because it comes down to individual responsibility. You gotta focus on where your information is coming from. And, you know, right now, um, you know, you could argue, I mean, that the, the, whether it's the face, uh, swapping techniques, whether it's AI that, that can mimic, and whether it's for criminal purposes or whether it's for state-sponsored efforts to try to, to, to, uh, put the knife in, into the American system or, or the West, um, you know, we are... It's, it's democratized misinformation, right? It's made it so that everybody can engage in it, not just state sponsors, but everybody, because all those apps are out there, all the abilities out there. And you've got an incurious public, for the most part, that, that doesn't take the time.

Joe Rogan 53:32 And an uninformed public. They d-

Mike Baker 53:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:34 Most of them are not even aware that there's foreign elements that have an influence on our culture.

Mike Baker 53:39 Yeah, which is-

Joe Rogan 53:40 Weird.

Mike Baker 53:40 ... which is shocking if you think about it, right?

Joe Rogan 53:42 It's shocking-

Mike Baker 53:42 But-

Joe Rogan 53:42 ... but so few people are aware of anything other than what's going on in their own life and what's going on at work.

Mike Baker 53:47 Well, life is messy, and it's tough, and-

Joe Rogan 53:49 Yeah.

Mike Baker 53:49 ... you're trying to raise kids and, and, you know, you're trying to-

Joe Rogan 53:52 You don't have time.

Mike Baker 53:52 ... you know, put food on the table. You don't have time and...

Joe Rogan 53:54 I talked to-

Mike Baker 53:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:55 ... some of my friends about this stuff, and their eyes glaze over.

Mike Baker 53:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:58 They don't even wanna know.

Mike Baker 53:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:58 "I'm busy, bro."

Mike Baker 53:59 Yeah, but you know what it does? It... I mean, look at, look at the state of... Look how dysfunctional we are right now, right? I mean, this is, this is remarkable, you know, at times. And again, everybody wants to think it's always the worst time, right? It's not the worst time, right? We've had worse times. Civil war, I think, was pretty bad. Um, you know, so we've had more dysfunction, I suppose, at times, but the technology speeds it along, right? And, and, and, and w- and, you know, we just have more people, so the, the potential for more of a shit show is there. But, um, that is ultimately, when people always talk about, "Well, how do you, how do you..." You can't, you can't just use detection. You can't be on the defensive all the time trying to identify, "Okay, that's fake, that's fake, that's fake." Right? You gotta rely on people, right, to say, "Uh, you know what? I'm not gonna buy everything I read," right? "I'm gonna pay attention, and I'm gonna think about it a little bit, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna chill the fuck out." And, but it's not, it's not in human nature, apparently, right now. So yeah, we've got a problem, and those nations, particularly Iran, China, and Russia, are having a field day right now, right? This is... We, we are making it very easy for them. And think about it, we got the fucking election coming up in November.

Joe Rogan 55:08 Yeah.

Mike Baker 55:08 So think about what that means in terms of disinformation. And it's... Yeah, it's, it's remarkable. I, we, I, we live in a very interesting time. Uh, I think w- we're gonna be fine. It's a very resilient environment, I suppose. But, so I try to be positive.... but-

Joe Rogan 55:24 It's fraught with peril.

Mike Baker 55:25 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:26 Well, let me ask you this from a perspective of someone who kind of understands all these different influences and all the things that are happening in these universities. What can be done to sort of, like, unwind some of this fuckery? If anything, at this point. I mean, uh, are we just gonna operate from here on out with this understanding that our kids get indoctrinated to this preposterous, ridiculous way of thinking where they're taught these Marxist-Leninist ideas as if they make any fucking sense and that they've ever- ever worked anywhere? And if they don't always lead to totalitarian, authoritative governments that take over-

Mike Baker 56:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:04 ... and enforce all these socialist policies, which is a fucking nightmare that happens in every single regime-

Mike Baker 56:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:11 ... when they-

Mike Baker 56:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:12 ... go socialism.

Mike Baker 56:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:13 So how, what can be done to sort, sort of like unwind some of this bullshit in colleges and balance it out a little bit? Like there's nothing wrong with having ridiculous ideas. As long as those-

Mike Baker 56:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:25 ... ridiculous ideas can be challenged. But if you're the only one that gets to talk-

Mike Baker 56:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 56:29 ... and you just indoctrinate these kids and no one comes along and says, "Hey, you've never even functioned in the fucking real world."

Mike Baker 56:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:36 Like, this shit that you're teaching these kids, unless they go into academia, they're fucked.

Mike Baker 56:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:41 Or you're gonna ruin corporations with this ideology because it just, it doesn't jive with capitalism. It doesn't jive with... And oh yeah, we gotta tear capitalism down.

Mike Baker 56:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:51 Okay, well then what-

Mike Baker 56:52 You fucking idiot. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:53 ... you fucking idiots then no one has any incentive to get anything done?

Mike Baker 56:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Well, that's great for you because you've never done anything.

Mike Baker 56:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:58 So you think all these people that did things, even if you don't agree with them, even if it's Bill Gates, he still built that fucking company.

Mike Baker 57:04 Right. Right.

Joe Rogan 57:05 That's his.

Mike Baker 57:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:06 He did it. Do you want to be that guy? Then go do what he did. If you don't like what he did, then you, you can talk about it, you can protest about the idea that you should, everyone should have to give all their money away and there should be-

Mike Baker 57:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:18 ... no billionaires and there should be no capitalism and all the money goes into... And then who, who's in charge and who gets to tell you what you can do and not do?

Mike Baker 57:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:25 Who gets to tell you you can't have your money anymore?

Mike Baker 57:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:28 Who gets to take your house away because it's too big? Shut the fuck up.

Mike Baker 57:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:31 This is like so shortsighted and so stupid that it's so hard for me to believe that it's being taught in universities.

Mike Baker 57:37 Right. Or, or the, the idea now of what they're saying (laughs) is like you got a big house, you got a couple extra rooms, you know what you should do?

Joe Rogan 57:42 Yeah. Take in these fucking migrants-

Mike Baker 57:43 Take in, yeah. Take in some migrants.

Joe Rogan 57:44 ... that might be murderers.

Mike Baker 57:44 Yeah. That we haven't, we haven't bothered to, to vet.

Joe Rogan 57:45 Yeah. That guy with the 13 tattoo-

Mike Baker 57:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:47 ... on his forehead. Bring him in.

Mike Baker 57:48 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:49 He's fine. He's a nice guy. He's trying to clean his life up. That's why he walked here.

Mike Baker 57:52 Yeah. And the border's fine. Don't worry about it. It's all good. Uh-

Joe Rogan 57:54 It's fine.

Mike Baker 57:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:55 It's only like 20% Chinese nationals that are of military age. (laughs)

Mike Baker 57:59 No, that's... The s- the staggering number-

Joe Rogan 58:02 That's a number. (laughs)

Mike Baker 58:02 The staggering number of Chinese have come across the border in the past six months.

Joe Rogan 58:05 It's wild.

Mike Baker 58:06 Yeah. It is, it is fascinating because you think what accounts for that increase, right?

Joe Rogan 58:10 They want to learn MMA.

Mike Baker 58:11 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:12 Because they're the best gyms.

Mike Baker 58:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:13 A lot of even the Chinese-

Mike Baker 58:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:14 ... champions that come over here to train.

Mike Baker 58:15 Really?

Joe Rogan 58:16 Yeah, sure.

Mike Baker 58:16 So maybe that accounts for what, 20,000 of the-

Joe Rogan 58:19 No.

Mike Baker 58:19 (laughs) 26,000.

Joe Rogan 58:20 30 of them. Yeah.

Mike Baker 58:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:21 30, 30 of those guys are future MMA stars.

Mike Baker 58:24 Uh...

Joe Rogan 58:24 Future UFC stars.

Mike Baker 58:25 But I, I mean, you look at the universities and think, yeah, university is supposed to be a place where you exchange ideas. So that's great. You want to talk about it, you want to have classes in, in, in, in Marxism or whatever, you want to talk... That's great. But you, you're right. You need to have that discourse, you need to be... Uh, you know, I, again, I keep reverting back to the, the examples of the, you know, real world and, and from my own experience. You know, my daughter went to undergrad and grad school, and she kept her mouth shut for most of that time. Right. Six years, because she always knew what she said. There was no upside to her arguing in class.

Joe Rogan 58:55 Right.

Mike Baker 58:55 You know, and she's a centrist, right? She's... And, and that, but that's not popular either.

Joe Rogan 59:00 No.

Mike Baker 59:00 Right. You can't be a centrist on campus-

Joe Rogan 59:02 No.

Mike Baker 59:02 ... man, because-

Joe Rogan 59:03 You're with us or against us.

Mike Baker 59:03 ... you can't say there's good ideas-

Joe Rogan 59:04 Yeah.

Mike Baker 59:04 ... on both sides.

Joe Rogan 59:05 (gasps)

Mike Baker 59:06 So I know.

Joe Rogan 59:06 What did you just say?

Mike Baker 59:07 Fuck that there, aren't you?

Joe Rogan 59:08 You terrible person.

Mike Baker 59:09 So, so yeah. So she, she went through school and that's, that's a terrible thought.

Joe Rogan 59:13 Yeah.

Mike Baker 59:13 Right. Particularly when you're paying for it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:17 (laughs) But-

Mike Baker 59:17 But she's, she worked out fine. She's great. But she, and she understood a joke, right. She got the joke, but it shouldn't be there.

Joe Rogan 59:23 Right. You shouldn't have to decipher that for four years y- you shouldn't have to like, "Oh, let me put this through the bullshit filter."

Mike Baker 59:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:29 "Okay. Let me just get through this class and figure out what's applicable and what I need for my degree."

Mike Baker 59:33 Yeah. But un- unless... You know, I do think there's, there's some bounce back on, on the corporate side with DEI, for example. Right. I think there are a number of companies out there just as with the sort of the climate, you know, change. You know, I watched, I watched oil companies like do this complete left turn saying, "We're gonna, you know, we're gonna make a, a over half of our revenues from green energy in the future, near future," like a couple of years from now. And you think like, it's not gonna happen, but they have to play that game for a while and then they come back and go, "It's not gonna happen. So you know what we're doing? We're investing in all of this shit, including fossil fuels." So I think that whether it's that or whether it's the kind of the pushback on DEI from corporations that are saying, um, you know, maybe it is a grift, right? Maybe you've got all these DEI grifters out there and they got it. It's a cottage industry. They can make a lot of money off of this bullshit. Get a lot of government grants and all this things. So... But I think there's some pushback. Universities, I think are a tougher issue.

Joe Rogan 1:00:24 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:00:24 Right. Um, I don't think... Unless, unless parents and kids just say, "I'm not going to that bullshit." I mean, look-

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Well-

Mike Baker 1:00:30 Have you seen some of these kids at these supposedly elite universities talk?

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 (laughs)

Mike Baker 1:00:34 How the fuck did they get into these universities? Because they must have passed at the application process.

Joe Rogan 1:00:39 Well, some kids are just really bad-

Mike Baker 1:00:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:40 ... at talking. They're good, good at school work.

Mike Baker 1:00:42 So you think that's what it is? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:43 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:00:44 Yeah. Yeah. Could be. Could be.

Joe Rogan 1:00:45 Well, I, I think, you know, you, you basically have to just memorize what they're teaching you. And that's, that doesn't require a lot of critical thinking.

Mike Baker 1:00:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 And then when you have to think on your own and say, "What does from the river to the sea mean?"

Mike Baker 1:00:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 What do you mean?

Mike Baker 1:00:59 What river are we talking about?

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 What does that mean?

Mike Baker 1:01:00 What sea are we talking about?

Joe Rogan 1:01:01 And what does that mean?

Mike Baker 1:01:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:02 What happens to the Jews-

Mike Baker 1:01:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:03 ... that live there?

Mike Baker 1:01:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Where do they go? They go back to Germany?

Mike Baker 1:01:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 Like what are you saying?

Mike Baker 1:01:07 That's an interesting, um... It's an interesting phrase. I will say that, you know, it, it... You talk about Hamas and, and the Israeli conflict now, and it's... I mean, there's, there's a minefield here. Actually, one of my, one of my managing directors for, uh, for my company, Portman Square Group, for all your information and security needs. Thank you. Um-... one of the managing directors said, knew that I was, I was gonna sit back down with you-

Joe Rogan 1:01:28 (laughs)

Mike Baker 1:01:28 ... and they said, "Look, I know you're probably gonna want to talk about Hamas. Is there any way you can do it, right, without pissing off people?" And-

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 That's, that's cute.

Mike Baker 1:01:36 Yeah. I know, that's what I thought, right? So you want me to talk about the Israeli, you know, Palestinian issue without upsetting somebody.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:01:43 Uh, I don't think, and, and she's a brilliant person, but I don't, I don't think that's gonna happen. But I will say, it is th- it's, obviously it's complex, but it's complex in part because it's not absolute, right? And, and everybody talks in absolutes when it comes to this, right?

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 1:02:00 It's, it, it's, it's, it's Hamas is an, it's a Pales- Hamas is a terrorist organization, so fuck them. But it's, you know, Palestinian problem, or it's the Israeli problem. You know what? If you look at their history, right? There's problems on both sides, right? And no, and yet we talk about it like it's black and white, one or the other, right? And you're n- we're never gonna get, this problem's never probably gonna get solved in our lifetimes anyway. But it is, it is disturbing when you hear some of the kids, the actual students I mean, try to explain what this is, right? What this problem is, and, and talk to me about the river to the sea. Which again, you can say that phrase, uh, you know, in, in, in, i- in ten different circumstances, it's gonna mean ten different things to ten different people, right?

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 Mm-hmm.

Mike Baker 1:02:47 Um, and that's legitimate. You have to understand that that's, okay, I get it. The Israelis view that as like you're, you're, you're talking for a destruction, genocide of, of Israelis, right? Because that's, that's a destruction of a group, right? Not, not a war crime or something, not crime against humanity. Genocide is like your intent is to destroy the group, right? And so they, they'll, they'll see that. Palestinians, some Palestinians, not Hamas, Hamas has it in their charter, they know what river to the sea means, right? It's, it's, you know, it's taking over that entire territory and, you know, fuck Israelis. But Palestinians can say it and it means something else. It, it's a yearning for whatever, freedom, for a homeland, for ... So there are variances in it, but that never gets discussed sometimes because people are just screaming at each other like ev- every other fucking subject out there.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 Right. That, and that is the issue, right?

Mike Baker 1:03:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 And, and then, of course, when you are on a college campus and all this is being encouraged by these groups that are funded-

Mike Baker 1:03:45 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 ... then you seem like if you want to be a good person, you have to be a part of this group, you have to go there and be a part of this protest, and we see a lot of that.

Mike Baker 1:03:53 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 That they're just there because they're, they think they're supposed to be a good person to be there, and they want to make all their friends think they're a good person.

Mike Baker 1:04:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 They're carrying around signs and yelling out these things.

Mike Baker 1:04:03 Got the keffiyeh on and they, they're like, "Hey, look at me, I'm, I'm-"

Joe Rogan 1:04:05 Yeah.

Mike Baker 1:04:05 "... in the encampment. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing here." But, and you know-

Joe Rogan 1:04:08 Meanwhile, it's, it is a fascinating time if they allowed debates.

Mike Baker 1:04:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 Because if you could see a pro-Israeli and a, a pro-Palestinian debate, like a real legitimate, honest, intellectual debate and discussing all the various issues, like from the beginning of the formation of Israel to back in the history of the land and then what's going on today, all the treaties, all the different things that have happened, all the different peace talks, that would be a fascinating opportunity for people to hear both sides of this conflict and, and try to get a better understanding of it, instead of just running out there with signs-

Mike Baker 1:04:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 ... and camping on the lawn. It sh- d-

Mike Baker 1:04:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:47 Like universities-

Mike Baker 1:04:49 And these, by the way-

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 ... and these places-

Mike Baker 1:04:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:49 ... of higher education are supposed to be where these difficult conversations get sorted out.

Mike Baker 1:04:53 Exactly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 Because you're supposed to have the smartest minds and to bring in the smartest minds from either side. There's brilliant people that are pro-Israeli and brilliant people that are pro-Palestine. They're brilliant. And if you can get them together and have them sort out your details, all the people in the audience can get a better, more informed understanding of how complex this conflict is. And that is supposed to be what universities are for.

Mike Baker 1:05:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:16 That's what it should be. It should be a place where people can sit down and learn something about something very difficult, which is international conflict. These crazy moments in history where we get entwined with military conflicts that are happening all over the world and y- it's nowhere near you. And it's-

Mike Baker 1:05:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:38 ... it's complicated shit, man. And to just run out there with a sign because these fuckers are organizing this on campus, it, it messes everything up.

Mike Baker 1:05:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:47 It messes up everybody and to have like only one side's perspective heard messes up everybody. The whole thing's a mess, man.

Mike Baker 1:05:55 Well, I think that the, the students for the most