The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2234 - Marc Andreessen
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,000 words- 0:00 – 0:40
Post‑election relief and the “split timeline” theory
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
- MAMarc Andreessen
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) All right. Hello, Mark.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Hello.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you.
- MAMarc Andreessen
(laughs) Thanks for having me back.
- JRJoe Rogan
My pleasure. Good to see you. Well, the world's still, uh, functional.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It's amazing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, amazing. Um, we, we wanted to talk, you wanted to talk about the post-election, sort of a wrap-up-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and sort of where we stand. Are you happy?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Very happy. It is-
- JRJoe Rogan
It was a weird one.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... morning in America.
- JRJoe Rogan
That was, uh, one of the first times ever I felt hopeful-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... after an election. Like, you should've seen the green room at the comedy club.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Everybody was like, "Yes."
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whew.
- 0:40 – 2:41
Assassination attempt: unanswered questions vs institutional incompetence
- MAMarc Andreessen
So, my theory is the timeline, l- like in a science fiction movie, the timeline has split twice-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... in the last, in the last, like, nine months.
- JRJoe Rogan
What was the first split?
- MAMarc Andreessen
It was when Trump got shot.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh. Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And th- and there was that moment where the world was gonna head in two totally different directions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. If he got hit ...
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And we saw the most conspicuous display of physical bravery I've ever seen-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, afterwards.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... at that moment. Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And it could've gone v- you know, horrifically badly for the entire world after that. So, that was timeline split number one. So, that other timeline is out there somewhere-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... and I don't wanna visit it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Boy, imagine being stuck there. What kind of horrible karma?
- MAMarc Andreessen
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, that's a totalitarian, dystopian nightmare.
- MAMarc Andreessen
That's the bad place.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and then, uh, timelines split again on Election Day.
- JRJoe Rogan
I know you're a, you fancy a good conspiracy theory.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, that, that gentleman being able to pull off what he did-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and, you know, the way it happened, the way it all went down is, it's a Lee Harvey Oswald 2.0.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Clearly.
- 2:41 – 5:40
The two‑day news cycle and collective memory collapse
- JRJoe Rogan
There's also a confidence in the fact that the, uh, the news timeline today is so rapid.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, when things are relevant and people are paying attention to them is, you have a couple days.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Even with an assassination attempt on a former president-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... where- wh- where people were murdered.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And there's ... It's in and out.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, that's right. I think it's exactly ... I think the news cycle now is like a two to three day social media firestorm, and we just cycle from one to the next.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And we have the memory of goldfish and ... Right? They, you know, things, right, things that would've been era-defining just come and go with astonishing speed, uh, and shock. By the way, I- I should say, I don't think there was a cons- I- I- I doubt there was a conspiracy. I think anything's possible. I think we just, we have a confidence collapse, and I think we saw that on display when the- when the director at the time, you know, testified. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, there's all the elements that it could've been a conspiracy, right?
- MAMarc Andreessen
It- it could've, but this is kind of the thing-
- JRJoe Rogan
All of them.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... which is just like, it also could've been-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... systemic confidence collapse and then it's like, okay, would it be better off for the institute, you know, if it looks like a conspiracy, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Like, you know. Like, w- which world ... Okay, two timelines. Which world would you, would you rather live in, the one with the conspiracies, or the one with just, like, incompetence everywhere?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I think you have both.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Simultaneously.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I don't think it's binary.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
I- I think there's incompetence everywhere and conspiracies are legitimate. They're real.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that one seems like conspiracy. The- the fact that his, uh, his house was professionally scrubbed. There's no social media record of this kid online. There's no nothing.
- MAMarc Andreessen
He's the only kid of his generation who's that fired up about politics to have no online footprint.
- 5:40 – 9:22
2020 election ‘rigging’: censorship pressure and the platform–state nexus
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, I, like I said, after the election, I was like, "Wow. Voting works." (laughs)
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Yes. (laughs) Yes. Yeah, how about that? How about that?
- JRJoe Rogan
Voting works. That's nice. Like, they don't have the system completely rigged.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then, but they kind of ...... tried to rig it, at least with the media. The, where the real rigging in the 2020 election's, I mean, you can cast all your conspiracies upon it, as in terms of like mail-in ballots and all this jazz. But the real rigging was the collusion-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... between social media companies and the government to suppress information that would have altered the effect of the election.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's legitimate.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that was like direct interference and it was, you know, aided and abetted by a lot of former, you know, intelligence officials, and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... by, and by the current administration. You know, tons of pressure on censorship coming from this, you know, the current administration and all their kind of arms of the censor- censorship apparatus. Um...
- JRJoe Rogan
You have your hands in the tech community.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You have your fingers in all that jazz.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what was the general attitude about all that stuff when it was revealed? How did, how did people, you know, how did your peers respond to that?
- MAMarc Andreessen
I think anybody in social media, the internet companies knew it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MAMarc Andreessen
So I, I th- it was pretty widely understood. I mean, look, there's nothing that happened at Twitter, in the Twitter files that wasn't happening all the oth- uh, all the other companies, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So it's a, it's a consistent pattern. If you got y- the YouTube files, they would look exactly the same. And of course, we should get the YouTube files, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure. Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And now we probably, we probably will now with, you know, this new administration's probably gonna-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... like carve all this stuff open, but... Yeah, no, look, it was a pattern. And then look, you know, the, the companies bear a lot of responsibility and the people in the companies, you know, made a lot of, I think, bad judgment calls. But the government, the, like, the, the Biden White House was directly exerting censorship pressure, uh, on American companies to censor American citizens.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Which I, which I think, by the way, is just flatly illegal. Like, I, I think it's actually subject to criminal charges. Like, I think there are people with criminal liability who were involved in this. So th- there was that, there were also members of Congress doing the same thing, which is also illegal. And then there was a lot of funding of outside third-party groups that were, that were bringing a lot of pressure down on censorship.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And, uh, just an example of that is there's a unit at Stanford, you know, right next door, um, you know, to us, that, um, you know, c- was the Internet censorship unit that was funded by the US government-
- 9:22 – 12:53
NGOs as government cutouts: outsourcing what the state ‘can’t’ do
- JRJoe Rogan
lose. So head to blinds.com now and grab those Black Friday deals all month long. Use the code ROGAN for $50 off when you spend $500 or more. Limited time offer, rules and restrictions apply. See blinds.com for details. One of the things that I found really kind of shocking was when they revealed how much money the Democrats had spent on the election and how much money was spent on activist groups.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like, more than $100 million, right?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. The, there's just, there's extensive government funding of polit- of, of, of politically oriented NGOs. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
NGO's one of those great terms, right? Non-governmental organization. All right. Like, wh- wh- what, what, what the hell is that? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. What is that? Tell me. I don't know.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Well, it's, it's sort of a charity and, but what it real-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sort of.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Sort of. But most of the time it's, it's a, it's a political e- entity. I- it's an entity with a political agenda. But then it's funded by the government (laughs) in a very large percentage of cases, including the, the NGO, the NGOs and the censorship complex. Like, the government grants, National Science Foundation grants, like dir- d- State Department grants. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right? Direct money. And then it, okay, now you've got an NGO funded by the government. Well, that's not an NGO. Like... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
That's a GO.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right? And then you've got a conspiracy, y- that, you know, like with censorship, then you have a conspiracy 'cause you've got government officials using government money to fund w- what are, what look like private m- organizations that aren't, d- And then what happens is the government outsources to these (laughs) NGOs the things that it's not legally allowed to do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like what?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Like, like censorship. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Like violation of First Amendment rights.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right? The, the government... So the first, so, so what they always say is the First Amendment only applies to the government. The First Amendment says the government cannot, cannot censor American citizens. And so what they do is if you want to censor American citizens, you're in the government, y- y- if you're smart, you don't do that. What you do is you fund an outside organization and then you have them do it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Boy.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right. A- and that's what's been happening, right? And, and, and, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's like hiring a hitman. Like, it's not okay to murder someone, but you can hire someone to murder someone and then you're clean.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. And if you want to solve a murder, it's not enough to find out who the hitman was, you have to find out who paid the hitman, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Of course.
- MAMarc Andreessen
You wanna, you wanna work your way up, up the chain. And so a lot, a lot of this traces into the White House. The best defense the companies have is that a lot of this happened under coercion, right? Because wh- when the, when the government, when the government puts pressure on you, like, it, it might be a phone call, it might be a letter, it might be the threat of an investigation, it might be a subpoena. It, it could take many forms. But when the government does that, it carries ... you know, th- that's a very powerful message. I-... it's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... it's like a message from a mob boss, right?
- 12:53 – 16:37
Paid endorsements, influencer payola, and the credibility collapse of campaign media
- MAMarc Andreessen
So, I think in some ca- uh, in some cases, it's just, it's just pay-to-play, right? So for, as an example, we know that Kamala's campaign paid certain (laughs) on-air personalities, you know, fou- ... and then they were, they were ... you know, which re- it's to your point, people were very supportive of, of Kamala, who then gave her, you know, interviews that, that went really well. And so I, I think in some cases, you just have straight pay-to-play. That's just how that system works. It's just expected. And then I think you have other organizations, like, like these NGOs and others, activist groups, where they're, they're actually, you know, they actually do field activities, right? And so there's, you know, maybe there's a get-out-the-vote component or there's, you know, a social media influence downstream component or some other, you know, kind of field activity that's happening in support of the election.
- JRJoe Rogan
I just didn't think that they pa- like, when ... it's still unclear whether or not celebrities got paid to endorse her.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Y- right? Have you-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Th- they, they've mixed it up 'cause there's pre- there's, they ... like Oprah says, Oprah says, sh- the, it's the, her production company was paid to put on the production, but she was not paid for the interview.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, what happened-
- MAMarc Andreessen
But it was, you know, two and f- whatever, $2 million-
- JRJoe Rogan
$2.5 million.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... $2.5 million.
- JRJoe Rogan
It was initially listed as one, and then it turned out it was 2.5.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right, and so it- she owns a-
- JRJoe Rogan
But like, if I own a production company-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and my production company gets paid $2.5 million to endorse Trump-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and then I go, "I didn't get any of that money."
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
People are like, "Shut the fuck up."
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"Of course you got-"
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"It's your company."
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
"What are you talking about?"
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And also-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... how much does it cost to do an event?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
How does it cost $2.5 million to put on an event? Like, are you feeding people gold sandwiches?
- 16:37 – 19:48
Corporate media decline and the rise of podcasts as campaign infrastructure
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, w- another fascinating aspect of this system that we learned out this time around is the uncontrolled aspect of it, like what, uh, Trump called earned media-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... was much more powerful than anything else.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The uncontrolled version of it. Like, one of the things that, unfortunately for them, m- mass media or corporate media has done is they've diminished their credibility so much, so much so, that like, Joy Reid was on TV today talking about s- saying that Trump was gonna shoot protestors and all ... just wild, unsubstantiated, crazy shit.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And the more they do stuff like that, the more that they say things like that, the more it diminishes their impact and the more it drives people-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to independent media sources.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. I'm sure you've seen the ratings collapse that they, that they've, they've been ex- you know, they're down to like, they're down to like ... MSNBC's down to like 50,000 people in the 18 to 20, 18 to 49 demo.
- JRJoe Rogan
That is so wild.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Which is-... tiny. (laughs) Right?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so crazy.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It's, it's really tiny. So, I think that's happening. Um, the Gallup organization has done polls on trust in institutions including, you know, media for the last 60 years. It's been a steady slide down, um, and in the last, you know, four years, it's fallen off a cliff. I, I think it's real ... Oh, there's another study that came out, um, g- uh, the kids are now watching a lot less TV. Kids are just giving up on TV. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... and they're just, you know, they're on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram and other things. Um, and so, like, I, I, I think it's tipping. Uh, a question I've been asking myself is when, when will the actual ... You know, famously, 1960 was the first television election, right? The, you know, sort of legend has it-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... because it was the one where the televised debate really mattered.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And if you saw the televised debate, you saw a confident Kennedy and nervous Nixon, and if you heard-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... it, you experienced something different.
- JRJoe Rogan
And handsomeness-
- MAMarc Andreessen
And handsom-
- JRJoe Rogan
... came into effect.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And vitality-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... and health and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right? And all, all these things. Um, sort of positive, positive spirit, positive energy. Um, I'm actually not ... This, this might be of, have been the first internet election, or maybe we actually haven't had it yet. Like, I feel like we're really close to the first internet election, but maybe it's not all the way there.
- 19:48 – 23:50
AI governance, autonomous warfare, and a new logic of conflict
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, as you said, like, we're in a great timeline, and I think, um, it's a fascinating timeline, too, because there's so much uncertainty, and there's so much ... Right? We are at the verge of AI, you know, uh, OpenAI, you know, Altman has said now that he thinks 2025 will be the year that AI becomes sentient-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... whatever that means. You know?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Artificial general intelligence will be-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... will emerge. And who knows how that affects ... I've, I've said publicly, and I'm kind of half joking-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that we need AI government.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? I mean, it sounds crazy to say-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but instead of having this, like, alpha chimpanzee-
- MAMarc Andreessen
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... that runs the tribe of humans-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... how about we have some, like, really logical, fact-based-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... you know, program-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that, you know, makes it, like, really reasonable and equitable in a way that we can all agree to?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And let's govern things in that manner.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right. So, you can actually simulate this today, 'cause you c- you can go on these systems, ChatGPT or Claude or these others, um, and you c- you can ask, you know, "How should we handle issue X? How should this be run?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, we've done that.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right. "How should the, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... Department of Energy do whatever, nuclear policy or whatever?" And, and, uh, what I find when I do that is I discover two things. Number one, of course, these things are, these things have the same problem social media's had, which is they're tremendously politically biased. And-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... you know, that's on purpose, and they, they need to fix that. And that's gonna be a big topic in the next several years. But the other thing you learn is if you can get through the political, basically, bias and censorship, if you can actually get to a discussion of the actual issue, it's, you get very sophisticated answers.
- 23:50 – 28:39
UAPs, classified programs, and metaphors of demons/angels in a high‑tech age
- JRJoe Rogan
I'm sure you're aware of all this UA- UAP disclosure jazz that you see on television.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, th- the more I look into it, the more I think at least a percentage of it, a healthy percentage of it, is bullshit. And there's probably some government projects where they've developed some very sophisticated propulsion systems that they've applied to drones.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that that's what these people are seeing, and this is one of the reasons why they continually have sightings over secured military spaces, like out in the Eastern seaboard. Like, there's, uh, areas over Virginia where they continually see them, in San Diego, they see them off the coast of San Diego-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... where there's a place where you would test stuff like that.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Well, so of cou- of course we know that that was the case for a very long time, for sure, from the '50s through the '80s, because we- the development of stealth, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Was, was highly classified.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And the SR-71 was brand new at one point, and so you had these-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... like, you know, alien, (laughs) you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Do you pay attention to any of that stuff at all?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Of course, of course, 100%. Yeah. And then, and then, and then by the way, we're not the only ones, and so I- I- I, you know, my speculation would be that a lo- some of the military base stuff is, is, is, you know, the Chinese doing something similar.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and, you know, we got a glimpse into that with the balloon. Y- y- y-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, that one was goofy, though.
- MAMarc Andreessen
It got shut down, but still-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... the fact that the Chinese are flying surveillance balloons over American territory-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... and they were able to slip through our early warning systems and just, like, you know, loiter above military bases and, like, you know, take lots of, you know, imagery and do whatever scans they do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And, like nu- literally nothing was happening, and we didn't even know they were there most of the time. And so, like, you know, that is que- that's like a tip of the ice- it feels like a tip of the iceberg kind of thing, where if, if they were doing that, there, there are probably other things going on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I've read that someone had commented that similar things had happened during the Trump administration-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but they didn't tell Trump 'cause they didn't want him to sh- him to shoot them down.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Hmm, interesting. (laughs)
- 28:39 – 47:59
Woke ideology as religion, social ostracism, and the fight over open discourse
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you express yourself, uh, v- very brilliantly in describing the current state of woke ideology as religion.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, that's right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And that- the- the way you described it was brilliant, 'cause you were- you were saying that it has all the elements. Excommunication, adherence to a very strict doctrine-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... all these different aspects of it, th- saying things that you n- everyone knows to be illogical and nonsensical but you must repeat it.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, that these things are indicative of people that are in cults or people that are a part of, like, a very, uh, like a serious fundamental religion.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Well, I mean, of course, the big difference between woke and those traditional religions is woke has no concept of redemption.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And no concept of forgiveness.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is a very evil religion.
- MAMarc Andreessen
You do not want that- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MAMarc Andreessen
... to be a part of your religion, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, it's- it's also, it's- well, it's an ill-conceived, right?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
'Cause it's like immature.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's an immature religion.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes. It's absolutist. It's inherently totalitarian. It has to be 'cause it can permanently destroy people.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, woke also understands something that the Greeks understood, which is that, uh, being, um, ostracized and being put to death are the same thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and so when the Greeks sentenced somebody like Socrates to death, they gave them the option of just leaving.But the problem was-
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes. Socrates could have just walked out and left. The-
- JRJoe Rogan
No kidding?
- MAMarc Andreessen
The, the, the reason that was considered equivalent sentences is because a- at that time, if you were not a citizen of a particular city, you would get killed in the next city. You'd be identified as the enemy, presumptively, and killed. And so there was no way to survive without being part of your community.
- 47:59 – 57:33
History as a corrective: Rome’s ‘fish ponds,’ virtue, and why civilizations decline
- MAMarc Andreessen
... civilization for a long time. The Gre- the Greeks kicked off change, as we understand it, and then- and then- and then- and then the Romans. Do you know about the fish ponds?
- JRJoe Rogan
Fish ponds?
- MAMarc Andreessen
The fish ponds. The fish- Cicero's fish ponds.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So, uh, the Roman Empire, you know, ran for, you know, i- in a sort of- Roman Republican Empire in its sort of hea- what you consider its dynamic phase, s- s- sort of vital phase, ran for a few, you know, few hundred years, maybe 400 years total, something like that. And, um, uh, towards the end as it was sort of falling or stagnating and- and increasingly starting to fall apart, (laughs) a friend of mine says, "When the roads got dangerous and nobody could quite explain why," um, right? Um, (laughs) which sounds familiar by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, Cis- Cicero was, you know, one of the great- one of the great Roman statesmen, and he- he wrote these letters that we have, and- and in the letters, he sends these letters to all of his aristocratic friends, and it- the re- the theme in the letters is, e- b- basically all of the actual competent, capable citizens of Rome are at- are out in the countryside at their villas, uh, perfecting their fish ponds.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right? They've pulling into themselves. They've built their- themselves their own protected environments-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... right? Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... right? Where they control everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And they're completely focused on ornamentation. They're completely focused on their clothes and- and on their, you know, lifestyles, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Kardashians. They were Kardashians. (laughs)
- MAMarc Andreessen
(laughs) I'm sure. I don't know if the Kardashians have fish ponds, but if they did, they would be spectacular fish ponds.
- JRJoe Rogan
They would be amazing fish ponds.
- MAMarc Andreessen
I have no doubt they would be the most amazing fish ponds we have ever seen. Um, and he- so he kept railing, he's like, "Stop with the fish ponds. Like, stop working on the fish." Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Ah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... get- get back out here, rejoin the Senate. Like, get back involved in the system.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Let's keep this thing from caving in.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And I think... You know, look, as- as- as I- you know, the significance I think of, you know... Trump actually talked about this on the campaign, you know, his version of this talking on the camp- campaign trail is just like, "Look, I could be off on a resort. I own all these golf club, golf club, golf club."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- MAMarc Andreessen
"I own many things I could be doing with my life."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, of course. And he's 78 years old. He probably would like to do that.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Exactly, right? And he's, you know, surrounded, his family loves him and like, you know, grandkids and like the whole thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 57:33 – 1:18:25
Election bubbles, Democratic identity crisis, and the inversion of party roles
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. Um, how fearful were you, uh, leading up to the election that it wouldn't go into the new timeline?
- MAMarc Andreessen
It was so weird because all the experts said it was 50/50, razor, you know, razor sharp.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
You know, it's this tiny little, you know, thing, 80,000 votes in eight counties. Um-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And, you know, um ... And then, then number one, then it wasn't, which means we can take all those experts and just dismiss them forever going forward 'cause they clearly-
- JRJoe Rogan
Phew.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... they clearly have, clearly have, clearly have no clue, so it's another set of people we don't have to listen to. Um, but I had this really interesting conversation that kept nagging at me with a, um, a senior Democrat who's on his way out of, of, uh, uh, of, of politics, um, and he, he said ... uh, in summer, I said, uh, "How, how certain is ... or what, what's your view?" And, and, and this person said, "Trump's gonna win with 100% certainty."
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, this is a Democrat, um, and from a sort of purple state. Um, right, so, uh, you know, not New York or California, but like a state with, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... sort of maybe-
- JRJoe Rogan
Arizona.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... broader cross-section of people. And this person basically said ... Yeah, look, he said, said, "Look, all you have to do is fly anywhere in the country into any purple envir- uh, place and go into a second or third tier, you know, size city and take an Uber for 30 minutes." You know, land at the airport, take an Uber, drive around for 30 minutes, come back, and just ask the driver like, "How's it going," and, "Who are they voting for?" And basically 100% of the time, the answer is gonna be Trump.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Uh, 'cause people are just ... were ... people were just like completely fed up. They were just completely fed up. And then there was the, you know, Kamala enthusiasm, which th- this person said, you know, the Kamala enthusiasm is like highly focused in New York and California, which don't matter from an electoral standpoint, right? So they're not gonna decide anything.
- JRJoe Rogan
But matters huge when it comes to media.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Oh, sure, of course, but that's, that's the thing, uh, this ... the self-reinforcing nature of the bubble. And this is what's actually-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
... so interesting with these media bubbles is like the, the people in these media bubbles are not breaking out. Like, uh, they, they, they're, it's like they're getting deeper into the sort of collective psychosis that they indulge in, and part of it was getting excited about a candidate for which there was very little popular support for once you got outside of these, you know, heavily blue states.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And so it ... and it's ... in a lot of ways, it's the most, you know, o- obvious explanation in the world, which is just people just fundamentally did not like the direction of the country was going in and they were just fed up with it. And so-
- JRJoe Rogan
There's also this very bizarre arrogance of people that were certain that Kamala Harris was gonna win.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like I'm, I'm sure you've seen the viral video of this lady who's a political analyst who talks about going to the liquor store and buying a bottle of champagne. Have you seen this?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm. Oh, right, I saw that. Yeah, right, right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. I don't wanna show it 'cause the poor lady-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Getting ready to-
- JRJoe Rogan
... she's probably living in hell right now. But-
- MAMarc Andreessen
I'm, I'm a booze guy.... on BlueSky. She's-
Episode duration: 3:08:45
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Transcript of episode ye8MOfxD5nU
