Joe Rogan Experience #2264 - Lenval Logan & Jason Sands

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Okay, gentlemen, what's happening? Nice to meet you.

Jason Sands 0:16 Nice to meet you, Steve.

Joe Rogan 0:17 Uh, both you guys were in, uh, The Program, uh, which is, uh, a U- Uh, that's why I wore my Roswell shirt.

Jason Sands 0:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:24 Uh, UFO disclosure documentary, uh, all about what's going on behind the scenes. Why don't you tell everybody before we get started, uh, Jay, tell them w- what your background is, what you do.

Jason Sands 0:35 I'm a retired master sergeant from the Air Force, worked 22 years. Uh, retired twenty- or 2007. Um, started off as an airframe guy, ended up in Intel, and that's when things got strange. Um, had my second duty assignment as a Intel guy and got introduced to The Program. And that's how I ended up, uh, in the movie, is I had some, uh, strange experiences that, uh, I could talk about that were unclassified. So, I came forward, and that's where James found me. And, uh, we got along pretty good, and everything's history from there.

Joe Rogan 1:09 And Logan, you were in the documentary as well. So tell everybody what you do.

Lenval Logan 1:13 So I am a-

Joe Rogan 1:14 Pull this up to your face.

Lenval Logan 1:15 Oh, I'm sorry.

Joe Rogan 1:15 It's okay.

Lenval Logan 1:16 So, I'm also a retired master sergeant from the Air Force. Uh, started off as a B-52 crew chief, uh, cross-trained into Intel, uh, retired after 21 and a half, and I ended up being part of the UAP Task Force. And I was one of the first people to come across Jay here and some other people. And, uh, from that, um, James found out about me (laughs) and said, "Okay, we need to talk." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:46 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 1:46 So, him and Leslie Kean approached me, and I was like, "Uh, yeah." But I kind of got outted by, by Jay Stratton. He, he, everybody was ganging up around me, and he, around him, and he was like, "Why are you asking me? Logan worked for me." And everybody went, "What?"

Joe Rogan 2:02 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 2:02 And I was-

Joe Rogan 2:03 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 2:03 And he's, "Okay, I guess I'm out."

Joe Rogan 2:04 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 2:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:04 Oh, boy. Um, what, so, what, let's start with you, Jay. What was your first introduction to this, uh, whole concept that we are in possession of alien crafts or that we have communicated or there's been some contact? Like, what, what was your thoughts about it before you had these experiences?

Jason Sands 2:26 I had had a, a, a childhood experience with a UFO previous to that when I was ten years old. So I, I didn't really get an interest in UFOs at all. I just thought it was strange. Uh, it was also a, a shared experience with my mother. Um-

Joe Rogan 2:39 What was the experience?

Jason Sands 2:41 Uh, well, it was just a red orb that came down. It looked like it came from the atmosphere, you know, distance, and then kept approaching, uh, my bedroom window, uh, and ended up kind of hovering near the bottom of my street. And I was screaming to my parents, you know, "There's a strange light outside," and nobody responded. So I ran out to get my binoculars, my dad's binoculars, and ran out to the front lawn. Finally, my mom was the only one that responded. And we both got to see it taking off as it hit, came across the, the rooftop of, uh, my friend Eddie's house at the bottom of the street. And, uh, that's what she got to see, my mother and I.

Joe Rogan 3:15 Did it make any noise?

Jason Sands 3:17 Zero noise. No, it just looked like a total mirror, completely polished mirror kind of, uh, oblong kind of a, a ship or craft.

Joe Rogan 3:27 How big was it?

Jason Sands 3:28 It was about 30, 35 foot.

Joe Rogan 3:31 Really?

Jason Sands 3:31 Maybe even 40 foot. Yeah, it was about the, half the size of my friend's rooftop, uh, if you were to measure it from front to back. So, it was pretty big. It was enough for probably your eye to stand up in it and walk around a little bit.

Joe Rogan 3:45 And your mother has the exact same recollection of the experience?

Jason Sands 3:50 Yes. Actually, I'm, I'm st- I've been asked to write a book, so I've got her, her writing her part of that, and I'll have the same thing. I've had a, another couple of experiences that my family members and other friends will probably write up some...

Joe Rogan 4:01 And so this was all when you were young, and so you had this memory in your head when you started working for the government. But when were you introduced to the whole idea that this is a real thing?

Jason Sands 4:14 Uh, well, I know I was on mission, because I, I just kind of filed away that UFO experience at ten years old for many years. And I just was kind of even skeptical sometimes about, well, maybe it was just something, you know, an aberration in my m- my mind or eyes or something. But anyway, um, so I got really convinced that this was real when I was at Wright-Patt on a mission, when I was in The Program and we intercepted some calls that literally were speaking about, uh, an NHI presence in The Program. And they were working in labs.

Joe Rogan 4:46 So, Wright-Patt for everybody, Wright, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio.

Jason Sands 4:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:50 And, uh, NHI, non-human intelligence, right?

Jason Sands 4:54 That's correct.

Joe Rogan 4:55 And so they were saying... What were they saying? W- how much can you say? Like, and is any of this top secret, or is any of this-

Jason Sands 5:02 I can pretty much talk to you about the culture and the presence of the NHI, but I can't talk about w- like, weapon systems and the technology they're developing. That's all gonna have to be national security stuff, because we don't want our enemies to know what we got.

Joe Rogan 5:13 Of course. Um, so what was this, uh, this talk of NHI? What did it entail-

Jason Sands 5:21 Well-

Joe Rogan 5:21 ... when you first heard it?

Jason Sands 5:22 Well, it was between two people that were, uh, talking about the day's interview with this NHI that they had. They called him Eben. And-

Joe Rogan 5:29 He had an interview?

Jason Sands 5:30 Yeah. He had had an interview with him, and he was relaying what was talked about in that interview to another individual, uh, probably his boss or somebody that is gonna, you know, pass it on to the rest of the folks in the group or whatever.

Joe Rogan 5:42 Did you see, see this written down?

Jason Sands 5:45 I did not. I, I had had it recorded just like you would with anything else that's, you know ... It, it, it's recorded in su- in such a way that it can stand legal forensic kind of analysis. That, that's the level of stuff that you have to do with an Intel guy, is you have to be really-... specific about what you're recording and make sure it's accurate. Even whether you believe it or not what's going on, you have to be able to transcribe that word for word the way it goes.

Joe Rogan 6:07 So, you heard the recording. That's how you found out about this non-human intelligence thing?

Jason Sands 6:12 Well, it was an active phone call. W- that's what I did on the red team that I was on-

Joe Rogan 6:15 Oh, okay.

Jason Sands 6:16 ... for the program, because I was, um, monitoring for the Air Force. And in this case, I'm monitoring for the program.

Joe Rogan 6:23 Can you say how the conversation went? Like (laughs) how did-

Jason Sands 6:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:26 ... someone bring up non-human intelligence? What was, like... Had y- was there any discussion before this non-human intelligence of UFOs at all or aliens at all?

Jason Sands 6:36 Yeah. There was, uh, quite a few times. We had an, a scientist on the team who was an officer. He was a nuclear scientist, and he was able to, uh, give us some insights and stuff like that, 'cause we'd have some really strange things, like, uh, things that were turning at 90 degrees and how do you not break that piece of machinery or, um, or not kill the occupants. And they were, we were hearing stuff like that. And they had, like, very technical parameters that I, I can't dis- cannot discuss. But they were talking about these and we'd get the scientist to come talk to us and he's say, "Oh, yeah. That's this, this, and this."

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Jason Sands 8:35 That was just, uh, like, the two of them that, when we, when I picked up the call and started the recording on it, uh, there was some guy that was there at Wright-Patt, and apparently he had been talking to this Eben. And he said, "Yeah, about today's session, uh, yeah, we got some more information you need to hear about. Um, this is what is gonna happen." You know, he says that there's gonna be another meeting, and that, uh, if we don't return their, the equipment and the prisoners, there's gonna be some bad things happen.

Joe Rogan 9:03 "We have prisoners."

Jason Sands 9:04 Yes. This is what they said on the phone call. And the other guy's like, "Well, hey, what if we, we can't get them, you know, to, to return all the equipment and the people?" And the o- and the guy that had given the interview, he's like, "Uh, you don't, you don't want to do that." And the guy's like, "Well, why?" He said, "If you don't, they're gonna be put to death." And I was like ... I, I literally s- stepped back for a minute and I was like, "What's going on here?" So, I had to finish out the call. They, they talked about sundry other things, just stupid stuff.

Joe Rogan 9:34 C- can you be a little bit more clear, like, who was gonna be put to death?

Jason Sands 9:37 The program folks that are responsible for keeping the, the tech that's not theirs, and also, you know, doing things to these extraterrestrials.

Joe Rogan 9:46 How did they, uh, allegedly acquire this tech?

Jason Sands 9:49 Retrievals.

Joe Rogan 9:50 Retrievals.

Jason Sands 9:51 That was... Yeah. When I was first introduced into the program, one of the very first things they asked me was, "Do you want to be part of the retrieval program?" And I said, "Well, tell me about it." And when they said the things they said, I was like, "No. Number one, it sounds gross. Number two, you probably can't get me enough PPE gear and hazmat gear to, to make me feel safe around these things. And no, I'm not interested in that. Thank you very much."

Joe Rogan 10:12 So, how do they describe it that it freaked you out that much? They're talking about biological entities that are retrieved along with the crash?

Jason Sands 10:18 Yes.

Joe Rogan 10:18 Why do they crash if they're so fucking smart?

Jason Sands 10:20 Um-

Joe Rogan 10:20 That's always the big question, right?

Jason Sands 10:22 Well, um, you're, I think the, the new guy on the block, uh, uh, Jake Barber, he is describing some of the ways that you can do this psionically. I guess the psionic team is gonna start showing some of that to the world, um, that some of this is, some of these craft are, are manned and piloted by a consciousness. And apparently they have a psionics team that can actually get in the headspace of these craft and cause them to land. Uh, so it's not really a forced landing, it's just kind of a mutual thing.

Joe Rogan 10:49 So, wait a minute. The United States government ha- has the ability to contact or interact with these craft?

Jason Sands 10:56 Yes.

Joe Rogan 10:56 And force them to land?

Jason Sands 10:58 Yes. And then there's other ones that are done kinetically, um, which is more the scary side of it and the ugly side of the program, is that what you've got here is ... It's not so much the military doing this, but the corporate people like Lockheed, you know, Northrup and all these other companies. They treat this stuff as very high, high value, uh, target kind of stuff, and it's very valuable for them to get the retrievals. So, you've got really what amounts to a bunch of treasure hunters that are hired, with mercenaries involved as well, that go out for these retrievals. And that's where Jake Barber comes in, is that he sees some of these people that are hired to come out and retrieve this stuff, and he's done that.

Joe Rogan 11:34 So, the idea would be that the retrievals would be very valuable 'cause you could back engineer the tech-

Jason Sands 11:38 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 11:39 ... figure out how it works, make s-, make weapons systems, make superior crafts.

Jason Sands 11:42 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 11:44 How long has this supposedly been going on for?

Jason Sands 11:46 Decades. It's been going on for a very long time. Um-

Joe Rogan 11:50 And, but ... Okay, so if the tech-

Jason Sands 11:51 Even before I was born.

Joe Rogan 11:52 But if the tech that we have now that allows us to tell them to land didn't exist before, why did they crash before? Like, what, what is Roswell?

Jason Sands 12:02 Well, Roswell-... the, the, the most accurate account is the one where, uh, the microwave radar waveform upset the, uh, onboard avionics inside these craft that these NHI were flying on that day in Roswell. And-

Joe Rogan 12:20 But it's just ... Radar's just a detection, uh, signal, right?

Jason Sands 12:24 Right. But if you look at some of the stuff like Garry Nolan said about how, you know, even at the very molecular level, these things are, are organized very minutely. So, you can imagine what even a flow of electricity, if it affects it wrong-

Joe Rogan 12:37 Mm-hmm.

Jason Sands 12:37 ... or if it's at the right, right wavelength, it, it does break down the, the electrical current and the electromagnetic or whatever drive that they might have. And that seems to be what happened at Roswell, is that they, they actually accidentally went in, um, and were just sweeping like a radar. And it act- uh, it, it caused this craft to crash.

Joe Rogan 12:56 (laughs) What a shit design.

Jason Sands 12:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:58 You know what I'm saying? Like, imagine, imagine like if you bought a Tesla and the wheels fly off when it rains out.

Jason Sands 13:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:05 You'd be like, "What the fuck? You guys have this like super advanced vehicle that you can come here from another planet-"

Jason Sands 13:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:10 ... "and radar makes you crash?"

Jason Sands 13:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:13 That's ... That kind of stuff makes people incredulous, right?

Jason Sands 13:15 It does.

Lenval Logan 13:15 So, I'd like to add something here. Someone gave me an analogy to say, think of it as there's a type of metal that is totally non-magnetic, but as soon as you put a current through it, it becomes magnetic, all right?

Joe Rogan 13:31 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 13:31 And he said, "Imagine this, you're in Roswell, you're cruising along, you're checking out, everybody go ... doing their thing." And then, 'cause remember that night there was a huge electrical storm. It ... That's one of the big things they keep talking about.

Joe Rogan 13:43 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 13:44 If one of those things gets hit and all of a sudden they slam together because now they're magnetic, (laughs) and then they bounce off. And that's why you had one that landed in Roswell area and the one that landed somewhere else.

Jason Sands 13:55 Yeah, there were two.

Joe Rogan 13:56 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 13:56 So, that was what someone told me. Now, I've never been able to figure out if that's the actual truth, but the two most likely possibilities is that one and what Joe just said.

Jason Sands 14:09 Yeah. There's actually another person that was approached by a s- you know, the same race of NHI. Um, and this guy says that they actually recounted what happened is that they thought they were attacked by a directed energy weapon. And then they quickly found out that no, this was just accidental and that this was some sort of a, a, a radar system that just caused their, their onboard computer to go haywire for just that second, enough to cause the crash to happen.

Joe Rogan 14:34 (laughs) But if it, it, uh ... It almost doesn't make sense to me, 'cause like, like if you were gonna go visit a non-contacted tribe in the Amazon, you would assume that they have weapons. You'd assume they have bows and arrows. And if you got hit with a- an arrow, you'd be like, "This is crazy."

Jason Sands 14:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:47 You know, "I can't believe I got shot by an arrow." But you wouldn't be surprised if they have arrows. Like you would probably ret-, "Hey man, we should be real careful that they might have arrows."

Jason Sands 14:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:55 "They might shoot us." So, if you're visiting the human race and you're so advanced that in 1947 you can come here from wherever, another planet, another dimension, whatever you're doing-

Jason Sands 15:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:06 ... wouldn't you know about radar? And wouldn't you have like a system-

Jason Sands 15:09 Well-

Joe Rogan 15:09 ... to prepare yourself for storms?

Jason Sands 15:11 Yes. And that's something, uh, that might have taken them by surprise because you're talking about 1950s. Radars were not all that, uh, new, but they weren't all that old either.

Joe Rogan 15:19 When was radar invented? Do you know?

Lenval Logan 15:21 It was World War II, if I remember correctly.

Jason Sands 15:22 Yeah. It was World War II. So, it was right around the 1950s, right up, right just before-

Joe Rogan 15:25 Right around the same time.

Jason Sands 15:26 Right. So, it may have been unexpected technology for them, and maybe, uh, they, they just didn't have it here, their countermeasures up or something. I don't know.

Lenval Logan 15:34 And there could have been some type of arrogance there because think about it, if we ... Based on our understanding, we believe that they've been coming here for thousands of years. Nothing's ever happened. And then all of a sudden ...

Joe Rogan 15:44 Mm.

Lenval Logan 15:44 (laughs)

Jason Sands 15:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:45 All of a sudden this new technology and it causes their-

Jason Sands 15:47 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:47 ... cr- their ship to crash.

Jason Sands 15:48 So, you have to think about the timeframe of when this radar stuff was actually being ... And, and besides that, they do not always ... Uh, I, I intercepted a different call that states that they do have a periodicity between when they come and go. They're not always here or-

Joe Rogan 16:01 Right.

Jason Sands 16:02 ... they're out doing other things, I guess. And, uh ...

Joe Rogan 16:05 I treat this like a, a segment on, on The Arsenio Hall Show.

Jason Sands 16:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:09 Things that make you go, "Hmm, I'm not sure." It just seems dumb. It just seems dumb that radar could take them out. But, uh, one of the things about the Varginha crash, which is another James Fox documentary, which is excellent-

Jason Sands 16:21 Yes.

Joe Rogan 16:22 ... uh, which is all about the crash in Brazil, which is like heavily documented, including the guy who handled the body wind up dying-

Jason Sands 16:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:28 ... of some unknown bacterial illness that they have no idea what it was and how ... He was a young, healthy guy. He carried this, supposedly carried this being, put it in his patrol car, took it to a hospital. They wouldn't accept it. Had to take it to another hospital. And then two weeks later this guy's dead and he just, he got unbelievably sick. There was nothing they could do to help him.

Jason Sands 16:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:48 They flooded him with antibiotics, all kinds of different things. There was ... Nothing worked.

Jason Sands 16:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:52 He died very quickly. When you, uh, you hear about that story, the big thing was that it, there was some sort of like crazy electrical storms that night.

Jason Sands 17:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:03 But again, if you're gonna have a Tesla, you would assume the wheels won't fly off when it rains.

Jason Sands 17:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:08 If you're gonna come here from another planet, like what's on that planet? Oh, well, they occasionally have lightning. Well, let's not fuck around if they have lightning. Let's not go into the storm. If you're in a plane, you can go above the storm. You know how like your pilot says, "We're gonna take this plane around 45,000 feet, uh." You know, they let you know, and then you look down, you can see lightning below you in the clouds.

Jason Sands 17:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:25 It's kind of crazy.

Jason Sands 17:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:26 How come they can't do that?

Jason Sands 17:28 Um, you got me. I was born in '63. This has happen- it happened earlier than I even got there. I'm just trying to go off of what I heard on, on-

Joe Rogan 17:35 I understand.

Jason Sands 17:36 ... on my missions. But-

Joe Rogan 17:37 I mean, I'm just, I just, um, just, you know, playing devil's advocate or-

Jason Sands 17:40 And I agree. I, I kind of have the same thoughts, but at the same time, you know, we've made similar stupid decisions when it comes to battles and, and-

Joe Rogan 17:48 I know.

Jason Sands 17:48 ... more times as well.

Joe Rogan 17:48 But I would just assume they're way better than us.

Jason Sands 17:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:51 Right?

Lenval Logan 17:52 Yes, 100%.

Joe Rogan 17:52 I would assume they ... Like you were talking about arrogance. I would assume they don't have that anymore. Like (laughs) let's-

Jason Sands 17:56 No, let's not ...

Joe Rogan 17:57 Fucking work that out of the system.

Jason Sands 17:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:59 We should work it out of the system.

Jason Sands 18:01 Well, I think they, that, that's true to an extent, but I think also they're very common- they have things in common with us as well, that they do have, you know, uh, the same sorts of, you know, desires to, to, to want to live their life well and all these other things-

Joe Rogan 18:13 Mm-hmm.

Jason Sands 18:13 ... a part of it. So, yeah, um ...

Joe Rogan 18:15 Well, it seems like if you want to go and do something, anything, like you want to explore the universe, you want to accomplish things, you want to make technology, it almost seems like some kind of self acknowledgement or some kind of ego has to be present.

Jason Sands 18:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:29 Like, otherwise, there's no motivation to do anything. Like, this was the question about artificial intelligence.

Jason Sands 18:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:33 We were talking about this and I said, "But if artificial intelligence doesn't have any human needs, it doesn't have any... It doesn't have the desire to spread its DNA, doesn't have the desire to achieve status-

Jason Sands 18:43 Yes.

Joe Rogan 18:44 ... why would it do anything? Why wouldn't it just sit there and just observe and, uh, just watch us be stupid?" And maybe it would say, logically it would interfere if we were about to blow each other up or something crazy like that.

Jason Sands 18:56 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:56 But other than that, why would it do anything? Why would it have any desire to take over?

Jason Sands 18:59 Well, look at us. An- and this is where I, I think there's a commonality between us and the NHI. Um, we're intelligent, uh, ch- intelligent people, um-

Joe Rogan 19:07 Some of us.

Jason Sands 19:09 Some of us, yes.

Joe Rogan 19:10 (laughs)

Jason Sands 19:10 And then... (laughs) But, um-

Joe Rogan 19:12 Go on TikTok. (laughs)

Jason Sands 19:15 (laughs) I've seen that stupidity, you're right.

Joe Rogan 19:16 Oh, yeah. Well, it's everywhere now.

Jason Sands 19:17 So, okay, take back what I said. No. But, uh, actually though, they-

Joe Rogan 19:20 No, obviously we're intelligent. I'm joking.

Jason Sands 19:22 But they probably have a desire for entertainment, which we do have a, a great, you know-

Joe Rogan 19:25 Oh, yeah. We're very entertaining.

Jason Sands 19:27 We love that, yeah. Um, and, uh, they probably have a curiosity as well that-

Joe Rogan 19:31 They have to, right? If they're exploring, why else would they explore?

Jason Sands 19:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:35 So it's... Whatever it is that made us us, you know, from ancient primates to what we are today, a big part of that is all these needs and desires. And you gotta wonder, like, at some point in time does that get engineered out of the biological system? And if it does, that system seems like it wouldn't need to just explore at all.

Jason Sands 19:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:56 Unless it's facilitating a process, unless it's... There's a very delicate process where, uh, advanced life forms like ourselves are experiencing this new technology and a lot of the people that are in possession of the technology aren't even the ones who created it.

Jason Sands 20:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:16 So they have all this insane responsibility, but they've done none of the work and they have power over this technology-

Jason Sands 20:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:21 ... which is where we find ourself today-

Jason Sands 20:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:23 ... which is real weird. Imagine that's a process that all intelligent life goes through as it's evolving all throughout the universe.

Jason Sands 20:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:32 Maybe they know this. Maybe they... Maybe it's a precarious thing and maybe it has to be monitored, because, like, oh, you know, Star 15. Remember that third planet? Yeah, they fucking whacked the whole planet.

Jason Sands 20:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:41 We got there too late.

Jason Sands 20:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:43 And then we realize, oh, that took like four billion years to make intelligent life that could figure out cellphones, and these dipshits blew each other up.

Jason Sands 20:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:49 And now there's nothing but, you know, microbes and it's gonna take billions of years and it might not even work, because they might be too far from the sun by then.

Jason Sands 20:55 Mm-hmm. Time for another test case.

Joe Rogan 20:57 Yeah. So let's, uh, let's prevent these territorial primates from killing each other.

Jason Sands 21:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:04 And just maybe that's a thing that they do throughout the universe, like farmers.

Jason Sands 21:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 21:07 Like, you know, make sure the wolves don't eat the calves. You know, just, like, protect it-

Jason Sands 21:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:12 ... until it gets to this next stage.

Jason Sands 21:14 You know, I have to say that on mission, that I did get that feeling that no matter where the NHI were mentioned, there w- it was not a copacetic, free for all exchange of technologies at all. It was very controlled by the NHI. Uh, if there was a lab environment, the NHI demanded that no human be in the, in the lab while they're there, or s- or watch what they're doing and record what they're doing. Um, and then they would leave and then the humans could come in. So it's a very precarious little game they're playing. Um, so it's just like-

Joe Rogan 21:42 So how long have they supposedly been having these interactions with NHIs?

Jason Sands 21:46 I'd say since, uh-

Joe Rogan 21:47 I don't like calling them NHIs. I like calling them aliens.

Jason Sands 21:49 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 21:49 I'm old school.

Jason Sands 21:49 For me, again, I wasn't... (laughs) Yeah, I, I like just calling them aliens or whatever. But, um, yeah. I think it happened in the Eisenhower days, you know, that that's when it really started to come, because that's when they were saying that th- this UFO came to Holloman and landed and actually talked to the president at the time.

Joe Rogan 22:06 (laughs)

Jason Sands 22:07 And all that stuff.

Joe Rogan 22:08 Imagine a UFO talking to Trump. (laughs)

Jason Sands 22:12 (laughs) Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:13 He'd probably try to tax him.

Jason Sands 22:15 Oh, yep. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:16 (laughs)

Jason Sands 22:16 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 22:16 So my, my biggest question any, anytime someone brings up NHI aliens, my first thing is, "Which one?"

Joe Rogan 22:23 Which one?

Lenval Logan 22:23 Because they, uh, they talk about it as if it's one entity. "Oh, they did that. Oh, they did this." Or... But when you break it down, we're hearing some like us and want us to evolve, some don't like us and want us to kind of-

Joe Rogan 22:36 Pull back.

Lenval Logan 22:37 ... pull back.

Jason Sands 22:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Lenval Logan 22:38 And they want to control certain things. So I'm like, "Well, which one?" And then they, they look at me with that deer in the headlight look like, "Oh, um, I, I don't know."

Joe Rogan 22:46 Right. So there's the idea that our superiors, that the, the military, the top levels of government, they... Even they are n- not given all the information.

Jason Sands 22:56 Correct.

Joe Rogan 22:57 Because probably we're like a bunch of children. You know? We're like, "You're too stupid to figure this out. I'm not gonna tell you what a nuclear bomb is. Just duck and cover."

Lenval Logan 23:06 However-

Joe Rogan 23:07 Get under the table.

Lenval Logan 23:07 ... we could be the greatest show in this part of the universe. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:10 Oh, I'm sure we're a great show.

Lenval Logan 23:12 Yeah. I mean, imagine when we-

Jason Sands 23:14 It came in a way.

Lenval Logan 23:14 ... when we talk about the, you know, the things with the nuclear bombs where the, the missile silos, they, you know, started counting down or whatever.

Joe Rogan 23:21 Right.

Lenval Logan 23:21 Maybe it's like, "Hey. Hmm. Let's see how far they'll go if we do this."

Joe Rogan 23:26 Right.

Lenval Logan 23:26 And then everybody gets all excited and then they're just like, "Ah, okay. We're just kidding. We'll turn it off and go from there." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:31 Well, perhaps. I mean, listen, we run experiments all the time on animals. All the time. And we have collars on bears. We set them loose. Like, "Let's follow the bear. Where's he going?"

Jason Sands 23:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:42 We do that all the time. We do that with all kinds of species.

Jason Sands 23:45 We do. And I think it's very much-

Joe Rogan 23:46 It only makes sense that they would do it with us.

Jason Sands 23:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:48 Especially so... Since we're... We literally have the ability to annihilate all life on Earth and we're pointing at each other.

Lenval Logan 23:54 Multiple times.

Joe Rogan 23:55 Yeah.

Jason Sands 23:55 Yeah. Mad world.

Joe Rogan 23:56 Multiple times.

Jason Sands 23:56 Yeah. Mad, mad world.

Joe Rogan 23:57 It's a mad, mad world. That... I had that argument with Neil deGrasse Tyson where he's like, "Why would they be interested in us?" I'm like, "W- what are you talking... We go to the jungle to study a frog." You know? Like, of course they would come here. We're, we're so strange.

Lenval Logan 24:09 And we protect the turtles in that one little area-

Joe Rogan 24:12 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 24:12 ... that EPA says, "Ah, no. You, you can't mess with those turtles."

Joe Rogan 24:15 Yeah.

Jason Sands 24:15 You gotta imagine Elon gets to Mars and we do find life there and we'd be so interested to figure out how it works, all... What makes it tick. You know, they-

Joe Rogan 24:23 You know they believe they found actual water on Mars? Not frozen water now?

Jason Sands 24:26 Yeah, on the poles. Yeah. I heard about that.

Joe Rogan 24:28 That's nuts.

Lenval Logan 24:29 Yeah. That's great.

Joe Rogan 24:29 'Cause if there's actual water in there-

Lenval Logan 24:31 And we don't have to-

Joe Rogan 24:31 ... and they can find something in that water that's alive.

Jason Sands 24:34 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 24:34 But if we don't...If we're gonna expand out into the universe, which is what Elon Musk says, the fact that we don't have to bring water with us-

Joe Rogan 24:42 Right.

Lenval Logan 24:42 ... that's huge.

Joe Rogan 24:43 Bro, I ain't drinking Mars water.

Jason Sands 24:45 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:45 I, I don't drink tap water and I definitely ain't drinking Mars water.

Lenval Logan 24:47 It could be better than Red Bull.

Jason Sands 24:48 Yeah, it can. (overlapping)

Narrator 24:49 Tell you what.

Joe Rogan 24:49 Imagine, bro, imagine if it's, like, filled with crazy minerals-

Jason Sands 24:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:53 ... and you drink a glass of Mars water, and you just feel incredible. And then we have to ship Mars water from Mars back to LA.

Jason Sands 24:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:59 You know, that's the new thing.

Lenval Logan 24:59 That's a war right there. That's a war right there. People are gonna be like, "How come they have it and we don't?"

Joe Rogan 25:04 Right, there'll be water wars.

Lenval Logan 25:05 (laughs)

Jason Sands 25:05 I tell you-

Joe Rogan 25:05 What if Mars water just makes you go back in time, look, you look 20 again?

Jason Sands 25:09 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 25:10 Yeah.

Jason Sands 25:10 Yep, yep.

Joe Rogan 25:10 You know? I mean, who knows what the fuck's in that water?

Jason Sands 25:13 I don't, I don't know, but th- those are the kind of things, you're right though, that that's kind of how we are. It's that we're very curious about what's on that planet-

Joe Rogan 25:19 Yeah.

Jason Sands 25:19 ... and how we can utilize the resources that are there, like the water and everything else. And we're gonna learn some stuff, and-

Joe Rogan 25:26 Well, I-

Jason Sands 25:26 ... it's gonna take a long time.

Joe Rogan 25:27 What I'm really curious about is what was Mars like before it lost its atmosphere?

Jason Sands 25:31 Me too.

Joe Rogan 25:32 And was there a time, a few billion years ago, where Mars was like Earth, you know? And if-

Jason Sands 25:37 It seems to be what people are saying.

Joe Rogan 25:38 That's, that's the craziest of all theories, right-

Jason Sands 25:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:41 ... and the most interesting. But i- if, you know, Earth still exists five billion years from now, and now it's cold and dead, and there's noth- how much would be left? How much is left after a couple of billion years, you know? I mean, what is really left over?

Jason Sands 25:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 25:56 What does it look like? Does it look like Mars? 'Cause Mars looks completely desolate.

Jason Sands 26:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:02 But we know that Mars had water, and we know Mars had a warmer climate. So, you kind of just assume there was something growing there.

Jason Sands 26:09 Yep.

Joe Rogan 26:10 What, what does it look like a couple of billion years later? Probably like Mars.

Jason Sands 26:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:15 Which is cra- If we do find out that Mars, at one point in time, housed biological life, or maybe there's microbial life or something like that, s- that still exists on Mars, just the climate is so harsh it can't advance past that stage-

Jason Sands 26:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 26:28 ... that w- that alone would just change our whole view of the, the universe itself, 'cause then we would start to consider, okay, maybe this isn't just this one thing that happened. Maybe the Fermi paradox is just that we don't have the ability to detect all these things that are out there.

Jason Sands 26:42 Correct, yep. We don't know-

Lenval Logan 26:42 Or maybe they really do pass by and keep their doors closed. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:46 (laughs)

Jason Sands 26:46 And locked.

Joe Rogan 26:47 Right, we're fucking shooting fireworks on 4th of July. We're nuts.

Jason Sands 26:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:50 We are the craziest species on this planet, by far. Everything else is normal. Everything else just kills what it wants to eat. Everything else, you know, does normal stuff.

Jason Sands 27:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:01 It's just, they, they fight over resources, but that kind of makes sense biologically.

Jason Sands 27:04 Honestly, after my experience in the program, I've found that it seems, the more I think about it, the more that they are very much like us in a lot of ways. But they have probably a, a world government that we do not have. In other words, they can get along in their own society much better than we can, and their former government is not all broken up.

Joe Rogan 27:23 I, I think if you branch out into the solar system and then into the galaxy, like, if you, as you start spreading out, if you do become some sort of an interstellar species, you kind of have to be united as a planet, right?

Jason Sands 27:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:35 You gotta go, look all this bullshit about the p- this country and that country, let's let it go. Let's let it go. I mean, I don't want one world government because I don't trust the government, but if I did trust the government, I'd be like, one world government is the way to go. Everybody should have the same resources. Everybody should have the same access to-

Jason Sands 27:50 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 27:50 ... healthy food and water and clean air. Like, it should be the same for everybody.

Jason Sands 27:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 27:55 It shouldn't be that you can make an iPhone in ch- China because they can make it for 15 cents 'cause the people were working like slaves.

Jason Sands 28:01 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 28:02 It shouldn't be like that. It should be like, the whole world has the same rules. But the problem is you can't trust the government. So, what do you do?

Jason Sands 28:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:07 Well, if you get to a point where everybody's so advanced that we don't have all of the same greed and lust and all the bullshit that ruins human society-

Jason Sands 28:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:18 ... if, if aliens get to that point, then it only makes sense that they would operate as a planet.

Jason Sands 28:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:23 But then they would have, like, their interest in, ahead of these fuckers on that other planet-

Jason Sands 28:29 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 28:29 So-

Joe Rogan 28:29 You know?

Lenval Logan 28:30 ... along those lines, it's those things that you talked about, those are the things that inherently make us human.

Joe Rogan 28:35 Push that microphone a little closer to you, I'm sorry.

Lenval Logan 28:36 I'm sorry.

Joe Rogan 28:36 Sorry. The, the hand moves, you can-

Lenval Logan 28:38 Okay.

Joe Rogan 28:38 ... push it if you wanna sit back.

Lenval Logan 28:39 Those are the things that inherently make us human.

Joe Rogan 28:41 Right.

Lenval Logan 28:41 So, the question would be w- depending on when the, which NHAI you're thinking about-

Joe Rogan 28:46 Right.

Lenval Logan 28:47 ... what inherently makes them them, and how compatible are we in what we're looking at? 'Cause those could be some of the things that attract them to us or detract them away from us.

Joe Rogan 28:56 Wha- What I'm interested in is are there things just like us? Is this, like, if you, y- you know, like, there's similar plants that exist in similar ecosystems all over the world, where ideally the seeds have never been able to get back and forth. But they're similar in, at least in some ways. It's just a matter of climate, resources-

Jason Sands 29:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:20 These plant, over millions and millions of years, the same kind of plants grow. Similar kind of animals. There's rats all over the place. There's r-

Jason Sands 29:26 There's a pattern to it.

Joe Rogan 29:27 Yeah, there's a, there's a pattern.

Jason Sands 29:28 Yeah. At atomic level, the, th- that there's a, a way that things occur naturally, and they me- form different things. So, a bird, I agree. I, I think you and I talked about it the first time we spoke on the phone is that, yeah, there probably is a bird, kind of looks like a bird on another part of the universe, but maybe it has, you know, two sets of wings-

Joe Rogan 29:46 Right.

Jason Sands 29:46 ... or two heads or something. I don't know, just because-

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Joe Rogan 31:07 ... something similar, like, I mean, the birds vary so wi- I mean, you can get a sparrow or you can get a fucking eagle or a condor.

Jason Sands 31:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:13 There's so many different kinds of birds too.

Jason Sands 31:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:15 But I wonder, is there... Is this the only kind of way life evolves, or are there planets that are just radically different than our planet, and life forms in a completely different way?

Jason Sands 31:27 Yeah. I would think that that's true also, is that there's exceptions to the rule, just like there are here on Earth, that-

Joe Rogan 31:31 Right.

Jason Sands 31:31 ... we've got some really strange creatures that roam around. Like, people are starting to say octopus, octopi, and, and stuff. They don't fit the, the, the normal way that things evolve around-

Joe Rogan 31:41 Right.

Jason Sands 31:42 ... the Earth and stuff like that.

Lenval Logan 31:42 And there's no bones there, so, you know, there, you're not gonna find any fossils anywhere-

Joe Rogan 31:47 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 31:47 ... from an octopi.

Joe Rogan 31:48 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 31:48 But if you think about some of the things that we are t- being told now, 99% of all life that lived before is all gone now.

Joe Rogan 31:57 Right.

Lenval Logan 31:58 So if this is what's left, maybe some of those unique things that were out there, th- there's something similar. Because one of the things that I ponder is there's got to be some grand design, because when we see these aliens, when they, whether they talk about it's a Gray, it's a Nordic, it's a Draconian, or if it's a mantis, they're all standing upright. (scoffs)

Joe Rogan 32:21 Hmm.

Lenval Logan 32:21 You know?

Jason Sands 32:21 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 32:21 So is that a gr- part of the grand design that as in- uh, as intelligent as you get, further up the food chain, you start to stand on your, your two legs and whatever? And then I think about if it's a mantis, whatever, how did they build their ships if they don't really have opposable thumbs and, you know-

Jason Sands 32:37 Hmm.

Lenval Logan 32:38 Those are the things that we're, we're always taught. These are the things that make us u- unique as humans, and we can build things, and that's why the other animals didn't... You know, the only other animal out there is what? The, the chimpanzee or the gorilla or something, primates. But obviously, nature finds a way, and it's not human nature. It's something other type nature, and they do something else.

Joe Rogan 33:00 Well, it could be genetic engineering too. It could be that they...

Jason Sands 33:03 (sighs) I was gonna mention that.

Joe Rogan 33:04 They reach some point where they say, "Well, what's the best structure for a body?" A b- a mantis structure way better than a person structure. We break so easy. Mantises are insanely strong. You ever see a mantis catch a hummingbird at a feeder?

Lenval Logan 33:17 Yes.

Jason Sands 33:18 Yep.

Lenval Logan 33:18 It's nuts, man.

Jason Sands 33:19 Yeah. Taking out tarantulas and scorpions.

Lenval Logan 33:21 They're so little, and they just snatch that fucker up, and he can't move.

Jason Sands 33:25 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 33:25 And like, if you looked at them, like, the w- the hummer is probably th- four times heavier at least, probably l- more than that, and he just like (whoosh) gotcha.

Jason Sands 33:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:33 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 33:33 It's like that design, the exoskeleton design-

Jason Sands 33:36 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 33:37 ... is superior in terms of like durability. And also, lobsters and crabs and all these kind of i- insects like that. Do, do mantis regrow limbs?

Jason Sands 33:47 I don't think so.

Lenval Logan 33:47 Let's find that out.

Joe Rogan 33:49 All I know is that-

Lenval Logan 33:49 Because like cr-

Jason Sands 33:50 Don't think so.

Joe Rogan 33:50 ... crabs do.

Lenval Logan 33:51 Yeah.

Jason Sands 33:51 I know crabs can.

Joe Rogan 33:52 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 33:52 And lobsters and crabs, all I can think of them as just armored spiders. (laughs)

Jason Sands 33:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:56 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 33:56 You know?

Joe Rogan 33:56 They're bugs. I mean...

Lenval Logan 33:57 And, and if you think about when they said that the oxygen level was at 30, 35% and some other stuff, they're saying some of these spiders were the size of small dogs. I'm like, "Yeah, that's not a place I'd like to live."

Joe Rogan 34:08 So they can. It said, "Praying mantis undergo incomplete metamorphosis. Sometimes, if their cage is too dry, a mantis may have trouble shedding old skin, will lose a limb in the process of molting. If it happens, it's possible for a mantis to regrow the lost limb, but only when they molt again."

Jason Sands 34:22 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 34:22 So they molt again, and then they gr- regrow that limb.

Jason Sands 34:24 That makes sense.

Joe Rogan 34:24 But they do regrow they limb. They regenerate limbs as long as there's at least a coxa remaining, whatever that is.

Lenval Logan 34:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:30 It won't regenerate right away, and maybe a tiny nub, and then it, and then they molt, I guess.

Jason Sands 34:35 Wow.

Joe Rogan 34:36 In- interesting.

Jason Sands 34:36 That makes sense, 'cause the, the harder shell would p- prevent that limb from continuing-

Lenval Logan 34:39 Right.

Jason Sands 34:39 ... to grow. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:40 But just seems like that's a superior form of, uh, a structure. So if you get to the point where technology is all done with the mind, right? We've developed artificial intelligence and quantum computing, and the being has been generated over genetic engineering to the point where it no longer has to have sex to re- to recreate new versions of itself.

Jason Sands 35:04 Yeah, asexual. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:05 And so instead, the w- the way they procreate is they, they do it th- through design. And maybe they say, "Look, it doesn't matter what you look like anymore. No one's fucking. Let's all become mantises." (laughs)

Lenval Logan 35:17 (laughs) That's a good point.

Joe Rogan 35:18 Right?

Lenval Logan 35:19 That's a good point.

Jason Sands 35:19 Okay, I need to reset now.

Joe Rogan 35:20 Like, this, this, this soft shit on the outside... Like, we're built, we're like fucking water balloons. We're so vulnerable.

Jason Sands 35:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:26 You'd better be... Wouldn't it be better if you're hard in the outside and, you know, we don't need to, like, use your fingers and thumbs anymore. We do everything with our mind.

Jason Sands 35:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:33 I mean, if it gets to the point... Like, this was the thing that I've heard about people that have supposedly worked on crafts, is that one of the most remarkable things is that there's no, there's no gears, there's no levers to turn, there's no buttons, there's no controls.

Jason Sands 35:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 35:49 That everything is done somehow or another where the being and the craft are one.

Jason Sands 35:55 Yes.

Lenval Logan 35:56 Yes.

Jason Sands 35:56 Consciously. Yeah. I've had discussions about that with scientists.

Lenval Logan 35:59 We have the same-

Joe Rogan 35:59 Have you talked to anybody that has said that any of the, the crafts have controls in them?

Lenval Logan 36:05 No. All I've heard-

Jason Sands 36:06 Basic. Yes.

Lenval Logan 36:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:07 Basic controls?

Jason Sands 36:08 W- while I was talking to Jack Serfaty about it, there was a, a craft that did have some place where the, the hands were in there, but it was only to, uh, sort of, uh, do some minor adjustments for the craft, is what he, he, he d- was describing and other people have described, you know, that-

Lenval Logan 36:26 This is what, what I was gonna say. There's just... All I've heard is that there's been two places for you to put your hands and maybe for-

Joe Rogan 36:33 Hmm.

Lenval Logan 36:33 ... other parts of the crew, but that's about it. There's no-

Joe Rogan 36:35 Maybe that's how you don't use your phone.

Jason Sands 36:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:37 So you don't get distracted. Just use your hands.

Lenval Logan 36:39 (laughs)

Jason Sands 36:39 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:39 Put your hands down on the thing. Okay, focus.

Lenval Logan 36:41 So there's no buttonology.

Jason Sands 36:42 Who knows? Maybe that is part of it.

Joe Rogan 36:43 Yeah. Yeah. There's no fucking around.

Jason Sands 36:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:44 Maybe they have something similar to, like, cellphone addiction.

Jason Sands 36:47 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 36:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:48 So (laughs) they put... So if they're putting their hands on the thing... That... Wasn't that what Lazar said as well? Didn't he say there was something similar to that?

Jason Sands 36:54 Yes.

Lenval Logan 36:54 Yes, he did.

Jason Sands 36:55 He did.

Joe Rogan 36:55 Yeah. So no controls, um, and somehow or another, putting your hand on it syncs you up, and then they're just using their mind.

Jason Sands 37:03 Correct. Yep.

Joe Rogan 37:04 Did they try to explain how this was developed?

Jason Sands 37:09 Um, there's a lot of people that are looking into it now, and they're starting to see that, yes, it's possible. Um, and I think that's, again, some of the new whistleblowers can shed some more light onto how this happens. And I think we need to hear a little bit more about these, uh, folks that came forward about the Psionics team and what exactly is this meditation, what are they linking up with? Is it, does it feel mechanical? Does it feel like an entity?

Joe Rogan 37:31 Mm-hmm.

Jason Sands 37:31 'Cause, uh, you know, when you hear Jake talk about his, his experiences, he had a really spiritual experience with one of these things. While he was carrying it to the next place, he's, he was literally crying in the interview.

Joe Rogan 37:43 This is that egg-looking thing?

Jason Sands 37:44 Yeah. He said that he felt ... Well, it was, he called it the eight-gon, I think, craft. That one is the one he had a spiritual-

Joe Rogan 37:50 Eight-gon?

Jason Sands 37:51 Eight-gon, like an o- a hexagon, but it has eight sides.

Joe Rogan 37:54 Oh.

Jason Sands 37:54 But ... Or octagon, I think would be the, the actual term. But he said it had like a, a eight-sided kind of a disc.

Joe Rogan 38:02 So this is not the thing we're talking about with the helicopter?

Jason Sands 38:04 It's not the egg one. This is a different one.

Joe Rogan 38:05 A different one?

Jason Sands 38:06 Yeah. He describes two.

Joe Rogan 38:06 So he encountered a different one?

Jason Sands 38:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:08 Oh, okay.

Jason Sands 38:08 Yeah. He actually describes two.

Joe Rogan 38:09 I didn't, I didn't see that interview.

Jason Sands 38:10 Yeah. Uh, well, the detailed one, I think you can pull that one out of there. But he mentioned that that one, he had like a real no kidding, it was beautiful, and he cried about it because it was so beautiful of an experience.

Joe Rogan 38:22 Wow.

Lenval Logan 38:23 And I, I have a question about all those things, because if they can get into our minds, my thing is then, how do you know that that's not what they're putting into your head? 'Cause like what, uh, they experienced at a Skinwalker Ranch when they saw the, the creature at the, on the top floor, they s- um, they said as they approached it, they started feeling fear, and as they approached it further, the fear just kept intensifying to the point where it was like a physical change in the temperature. So, if someone can put fear into you, why can't they put love into you and all these different things? And I'm not saying that it's not genuine, but part of being on the task force, you had to question everything. (laughs) You know, you're-

Joe Rogan 39:05 Well, we can do that to each other.

Jason Sands 39:07 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 39:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 39:07 You know, we, we can do that to each other through threats. We can put fear into people. We can do the ... You know, there's a crazy documentary called Holy Hell, and it's about this guy who was a cult leader. And, uh, one of the things that he would do to these people ... He was a hypnotist too. But one of the things he would do to these people, he called it the knowing. And he would put his hands on them, and they would say that they would experience God. They had to be prepared for it. It was a thing that was very difficult to get.

Jason Sands 39:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:35 He, he had to approve you for it, and all these people wanted it, and they never got it. It was like a thing he held over your head. And then when he actually did it, even though this guy turned out to be a complete fraud and the, the cult disbanded, all those people talk about that moment when they had that experience with that guy, and they say it really happened.

Jason Sands 39:51 Wow.

Joe Rogan 39:51 'Cause the human mind is weird, right? And, and if a person can do that to you by touching you, it just makes sense that some like super advanced being would say like, "What is the best feeling that I could give to this primitive entity that's studying me to let me know, like, don't blow me up. Don't fuck with me. Leave me alone."

Lenval Logan 40:11 100%.

Joe Rogan 40:11 And this is the best expression that you can have in life.

Jason Sands 40:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 40:15 What is the best expression you have in life? Is love. Pure love.

Jason Sands 40:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:19 Just pure just, just un- untethered love.

Jason Sands 40:24 Yep.

Joe Rogan 40:25 It would make sense. It would like put that in you so that you would protect this thing.

Jason Sands 40:28 Mm-hmm. And, and that may be part of it, and I think that's what their desire is, 'cause like we, you know, would try to put our best foot forward if we knew that we were similarly being scrutinized, and-

Joe Rogan 40:38 Sure.

Jason Sands 40:38 ... you know, we'd wanna, we wanna do that.

Joe Rogan 40:40 When we visit uncontacted tribes, we give them free food.

Jason Sands 40:42 Yeah. But-

Joe Rogan 40:42 We just say, "We're here for you guys."

Jason Sands 40:44 But see, that's where my fear is, that's why I came forward, is that I was hearing stuff that actually brought concern, that, you know, uh, in the way I, I kind of package that up is that the military happens to be unfortunately the face of humankind here in this situation when it comes to the program, 'cause it's definitely not the public. We're just, you know, err- errantly having people come forward with, "I got abdu- abducted," or, "I saw this and I saw that." But in the military, that seems to be where there is an interface going on.

Joe Rogan 41:15 Right.

Jason Sands 41:15 And I'm just wondering, is that too heavy-handed because they're not seeing the full human race?

Joe Rogan 41:19 Right. They're only seeing the military humans.

Jason Sands 41:21 Right. And that's why I kind of took the tact I did instead of going through all the other channels is just I just was like, let me try something new. Let me talk to the people and get to know the people what they feel about this. And I'll just tell my story. Uh, whatever happens, happens. Yeah, I took some spears. But, you know, most, for the most part, people are ready for this.

Joe Rogan 41:39 People, people definitely want it. Whether they're ready for it, (laughs) we'll find out if it-

Jason Sands 41:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 41:43 ... actually becomes bigger and, and more profound than what we, we've currently experienced.

Lenval Logan 41:48 Yeah. I got, I got asked a question, and they said, "If you were gonna go to Congress and say, 'Here's what we need to know about the UAP experience,' what would you tell everybody?"

Jason Sands 41:59 That's a good question.

Lenval Logan 41:59 And my answer was, "We don't need you anymore," because so many groups now have caught on that if they attune themselves to whatever it is, they can talk to these things directly themselves. Now, whether it's good or bad, but because of the, the badness that has transpired over the years, more and more people of like you, you said you don't trust the government, there's people they don't trust the government at all in this other thing. So they're like, "Let's reach out by ourselves." You've got people doing, you know, RVing and out of the body experience and all that other stuff.

Joe Rogan 42:35 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 42:35 You've got people that are being contacted directly, so now they're trying to say, say things. So, and also too we're evolving. So as we're evolving and other things start happening, you have to start questioning, why do we need the government in the middle of this? Uh, n- n- please don't take this the wrong way 'cause people get angry. It's kinda like the Catholic Church. I was always told, "If you wanna talk to God, you talk to God." But then why do I need a priest?

Joe Rogan 43:06 Right.

Lenval Logan 43:07 You know? So, the government's always been the middleman.

Jason Sands 43:10 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 43:10 So... do we really still need him?

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 43:12 Totally agree with that.

Joe Rogan 43:13 So, when you're saying that all these people have figured out these methods, how to communicate with the aliens-

Lenval Logan 43:17 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:17 ... what you're talking about is, like, people sitting down, suppo- this is something I'm hearing a lot lately. Sitting down and supposedly summoning them, putting out, like, an intention and that they w- they will come.

Lenval Logan 43:29 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:29 Does that happen with you? You ever try it?

Lenval Logan 43:31 I haven't, yeah, uh, so... (laughs)

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 43:33 Why wouldn't you try it? (laughs) If you think it's real.

Lenval Logan 43:36 (laughs) I- I- I tell everybody I'm Black and I'm afraid of the woo.

Joe Rogan 43:39 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 43:39 Okay?

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 43:40 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 43:40 Um, but at some point, I know I'm gonna have to embrace it because it is part of the experience. So, like, I'm good friends with Travis Taylor, and when we first started talking, uh, he was like, "Okay, I'd like to- to- to talk to you about coming out to the ranch, you and some of your p- uh, your friends, your intel guys."

Joe Rogan 44:00 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 44:01 And we just, uh, you know, we talked about it. And then I- I kind of put it up in the room and said, "Hey, guys, if we had a chance to go out to the ranch, who would go?" And all the white people put their hands up right away.

Joe Rogan 44:11 Ugh.

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 44:11 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 44:11 And all the Black people were, like, in the corner going, "Now, let's think about this."

Joe Rogan 44:14 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 44:14 "Now, what are they actually asking?" You know? And I- and I- and I sat there and I go, "Why is it that we're so, you know, reserved about going?" And I remember something that someone told me was when the woo happens, you embrace it, but you don't run towards it because that, whatever that experience is, it was probably meant for somebody else and now you're interfering when you run towards it.

Joe Rogan 44:39 Right, so if you summon the UFO, like if they come to visit you, that's meant to happen to you. But if you're summoning them-

Lenval Logan 44:45 Yes.

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 44:46 Yes. You may be-

Joe Rogan 44:47 Do you really want that in your life?

Lenval Logan 44:47 You may be causing a distraction. (laughs)

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 44:49 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 44:49 You know?

Joe Rogan 44:50 Also, like, what are you g- s-... I mean, people say that, "Yeah, if I could d- if I could experience UFO contact, I would." Well, would you really? 'Cause that might fuck up the whole rest of your life. Like, what if it does happen and then it never happens again and then you have a wife and kids and a house and-

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:05 ... you're just sitting in your fucking living room trying to pay attention to this football game when you're thinking about, "I've seen a fucking alien."

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:11 "I've- I've seen UFOs. They've come down and communicated with me telepathically."

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:15 Yep.

Joe Rogan 45:15 "I know they're r- they're real."

Lenval Logan 45:17 Yeah. Well-

Joe Rogan 45:18 It would ruin your whole life. (laughs)

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:21 It's... uh...

Lenval Logan 45:21 Remember- remember that, remember that movie with Ben Affleck, I think it was called, like, Chasing Amy? Uh, and...

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:27 Chasing Amy, I remember the name.

Lenval Logan 45:28 Yeah. Well-

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:29 I don't remember the movie, though.

Lenval Logan 45:29 There was- there was a-

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:30 Not that Amy.

Lenval Logan 45:31 No. But there was something that was said in there that f-... always made me think. After you have a first experience, and in this particular case, they were just talking about your first orgasm, you're always chasing after that first best feeling that you ever had.

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 45:45 Right.

Lenval Logan 45:45 You never- you're never gonna get there, but you're chasing it. And the same thing with aliens.

Joe Rogan 45:49 They ta- they ta- talk say that about heroin too.

Lenval Logan 45:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:51 They call it Chasing the Dragon.

Lenval Logan 45:52 Yes.

Joe Rogan 45:53 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 45:53 So- so, if you're one of those people that had a really profound experience with a creature from another world-

Joe Rogan 45:59 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 46:01 ... you can't really explain it to everybody else. So you're looking for something else to- to make it seem real because you start questioning everything that you know.

Joe Rogan 46:10 Right.

Lenval Logan 46:10 You know? And that's- that's how I was. I- my- my first experience was when I was a kid in England and me and a friend were just throwing a ball back and forward, and you know in the old days people used to wrap their sneakers around the telephone lines?

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 46:23 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 46:24 So, I just happened to see that there was some sneakers up there. And then w- all of a sudden I look off in the distance and there's this UAP, UFO that looks like an iron that you would iron your clothes with. The whole bottom part was glowing, the top part was just dullish gray, 'cause, you know, England, the gray skies, whatever.

Joe Rogan 46:41 Was the shape the top like an iron as well?

Lenval Logan 46:43 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 46:44 So it had, like, a hump to it?

Lenval Logan 46:45 It kinda had a hump to it. So I'm sitting there going, "Well, what is that?" And he goes, "That's gotta be a helicopter 'cause it's just standing there." And I was like, "But I don't hear any noise." You know? And then next thing you know, we saw, I believe it was two F-4 jets come up 'cause you could hear them. Those engines are loud. And this thi- these two jets come down, and this thing just goes And this is when I was living in Nottingham, England, 'cause I'm- I'm British by birth. All right? So, you know, our parents are like, "Eh, too much imagination. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da." And I just kinda kept it in the back of my head, and then I saw things later and I just kept questioning them and finally it was like, "I'm really gonna have to look into this."

Joe Rogan 47:23 So how old were you?

Lenval Logan 47:25 I was about 10.

Joe Rogan 47:26 10. So you were- and you said you were, like, 10 as well?

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 47:29 I was 10, yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:29 This is one of the things that I- I keep hearing about this idea that children in their innocence or their- they don't have this, uh, blockade in their head to keep them from... th- they don't think it's ridiculous to think about aliens.

Lenval Logan 47:46 Yes.

Joe Rogan 47:46 They're- they're- they're open to it more.

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 47:49 Yep.

Lenval Logan 47:49 We- we- we talked about this. And that was-

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 47:51 We're programmed as we get m- mature. That's right.

Joe Rogan 47:53 Yeah, right, we don't wanna be fools.

Lenval Logan 47:54 Right. So-

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 47:55 Correct.

Lenval Logan 47:56 ... I believe, and this is just my belief, not anybody's, but I believe from the mid-1950s all the way up to the mid-1990s, I think there was a deliberate attempt by these entities to reach out to schoolchildren and go into the schools 'cause remember the Ruys?

Joe Rogan 48:15 The Zimbabwe entities?

Lenval Logan 48:16 Right. But there's-

Joe Rogan 48:17 That one's crazy.

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 48:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:18 That's crazy 'cause all those years later, they all have the same story.

Lenval Logan 48:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:21 They all drew the same thing independently. They pulled them aside.

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 48:23 All the way to adulthood they remember it.

Joe Rogan 48:25 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 48:25 Yeah, and then there's the stuff in Australia, there's the stuff in England, there's the stuff in France. It's constantly... I think Preston-

Joe Rogan 48:30 The Australian one's real similar too, right?

Lenval Logan 48:32 Yeah. Yeah. I think his name was Preston Dennett. He wrote a book. I hope your, uh, viewers read it or take a look at it. It's like the top 100 school sightings. And half of it is based on just the sighting. Another part of it is based on the actual thing landing and trying to communicate with the kids.

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 48:52 Hm.

Lenval Logan 48:52 And I sat there just thinking, uh, "Were they doing that to prepare us for now for when they do come back so we're not so afraid, the kids are more open-minded?" I'm not sure, but you have to think about those things and go, "Hm." You know, kind- aren't you-

Joe Rogan 49:05 Right.

Lenval Logan 49:05 ... sitting here hoping?

Joe Rogan 49:06 Yeah, things that make you go, "Hm."

Guest (brief third voice, likely clip/insert) 49:08 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 49:08 You know? So those were some of the things that we just started thinking about and going...... well, what if, and then I, I hate to play what if games because my favorite what if is, what if worms had machine guns, birds wouldn't mess with them. Um.

Joe Rogan 49:22 (laughs)

Jason Sands 49:22 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 49:22 But (laughs) , but, but you have to play that game sometime and just kind of-

Joe Rogan 49:27 Right.

Lenval Logan 49:27 ... draw it out, and then see if it, if you have a hypothesis that can start repeating itself, and then you go, "Hey, there is something to this."

Joe Rogan 49:34 Yeah, well the real question is how long have entities been visiting us? And are the same entities visiting us over and over again? Or, like the Zimbabwe incident, is that like the first time that species has ever been here? And did they just seek contact and didn't know that they're dealing with little children in a school? They just knew they were dealing with a group of intelligent beings that they could communicate with? They probably don't even have the concept of a school, right?

Jason Sands 50:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:00 So if they, they're landing, I mean, they probably understand basic culture from, for human beings, but as they land and, and interact with people, this might be the first time they've, this species has interacted with anybody. We don't know. I mean, we're, we're dealing with-

Jason Sands 50:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:14 ... hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy alone.

Jason Sands 50:17 Yeah. And personally, from just my bel- belief in, in it, is that we have millennia of these sorts of encounters all through manuscripts, uh, even George Washington's got a story, you know.

Joe Rogan 50:29 George Washington had a story?

Jason Sands 50:30 Yeah. He, he met a green somebody before he actually went into a battle.

Joe Rogan 50:35 Yo, pull that up, Jamie. (laughs)

Lenval Logan 50:38 (laughs)

Jason Sands 50:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Lenval Logan 50:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:38 George Washington had a UFO encounter?

Jason Sands 50:40 He- well, he-

Joe Rogan 50:41 Or an entity encounter?

Jason Sands 50:42 An entity. He, he, he just said that this was...

Joe Rogan 50:44 George Washington also had lead poisoning.

Lenval Logan 50:46 (laughs)

Jason Sands 50:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:47 Uh, Shane, Shane Gillis-

Lenval Logan 50:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:48 Shane Gillis has the best bit-

Jason Sands 50:50 He did.

Joe Rogan 50:50 ... about George Washington. I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's fucking hilarious, about going to the George Washington museum and seeing George Washington's teeth. And George Washington's teeth-

Jason Sands 50:58 They're all wooden.

Joe Rogan 50:59 Well, no. They were slave teeth.

Lenval Logan 51:01 Yeah.

Jason Sands 51:01 Oh.

Joe Rogan 51:01 First of all, they, they knocked some of the teeth out of slaves' mouths, and the other ones were from horses.

Jason Sands 51:06 Oh my gosh.

Joe Rogan 51:06 And it was set in, it was all in lead. So he had-

Jason Sands 51:10 I never knew that.

Joe Rogan 51:11 ... lead in his mouth.

Jason Sands 51:12 I always thought they were wooden.

Joe Rogan 51:13 So his joke is all about like George Washington being fucking mad with lead poisoning. Like, "Ah!"

Lenval Logan 51:18 (laughs)

Jason Sands 51:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:18 Like fucking killing everybody.

Jason Sands 51:20 And wondering why he's starting a green guy.

Joe Rogan 51:20 That's why he's at the front of the boat. He was out of his fucking mind.

Jason Sands 51:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:23 It's a great bit. But, but the point is like George Washington was being poisoned by, you know, medical science at the time. They didn't know that lead was bad for you.

Jason Sands 51:31 Yeah, it's, uh ...

Joe Rogan 51:31 Which is crazy. He kept lead in his mouth.

Jason Sands 51:33 Yeah, but, uh, I do remember-

Lenval Logan 51:35 Well, they did know.

Joe Rogan 51:35 I know, but like, it makes you wonder, like what are we doing right now that, w- what the future people are gonna go, "These fucking idiots were doing that?"

Jason Sands 51:41 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 51:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:42 Um, but George Washington, have we found his account, Jamie? Not officially. So... Yeah. Something about, I mean, it's from Ancient Aliens about the Founding Fathers. Good enough. So ... Solid reference. (laughs)

Lenval Logan 51:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:53 Ancient Aliens. If it's not Ancient Aliens, it's legit.

Jason Sands 51:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:58 (laughs)

Jason Sands 51:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:59 Get Giorgio Tsoukalos to say it was wild hair.

Jason Sands 52:02 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 52:02 So, so all those, all those things that happened to those kids, we don't know if it was ... I mean, we're hearing stories now that they can mess with your mind. We don't know if they're pushing these kids forward mentally. We don't know if they're, you know, dumbing them down because they know that s- these kids are gonna be the ones that are gonna make a difference. Because it all depends on what they want to do different.

Joe Rogan 52:22 Well, they're all adults now, right?

Lenval Logan 52:24 Yes.

Joe Rogan 52:24 Are any of them like real exceptional? Are any of them like PhDs or something like ...

Jason Sands 52:28 Not that I've heard, no.

Lenval Logan 52:29 I have not, I have not gone to check any of that. But one of the things that coincides with that, that I kind of ... I think there was ... Exceptional people usually have to do some exceptional things to, to get noticed. And I think even if you're exceptional, you may not have fit the right block to get, to get noticed so that someone would sit there and go, "Hey, what's going on in your past?" Whatever. And then there's a lot of these people they just don't want to talk about.

Joe Rogan 52:57 Right.

Lenval Logan 52:58 Because of whatever the stigma. But now that the stigma is being lifted, you know, who knows? Maybe Elon Musk will come up and say ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:04 Yeah. The sting is being, the stigma is being lifted, but people still live with the haunting memory of the stigma being a part of their life. So like, I think people that have had an experience a long time ago, even though the stigma is lifted, they're still reluctant to talk about it. It's like there's still people that are in the closet.

Lenval Logan 53:20 Yes.

Joe Rogan 53:20 Like homosexuality is like way less taboo than it's ever been in, uh, in modern history, right?

Lenval Logan 53:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:26 But yet there's still people that have been in the closet for 20 years.

Jason Sands 53:29 Conspirators. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:30 And they're trapped. And they're just like, "Fuck."

Lenval Logan 53:33 They can't get out.

Joe Rogan 53:33 And they can't be themselves. They can't get out. I think for a lot of people that have had these crazy experiences, they probably had some moments where they told people, friends, and they got mocked, and people called them liars. They felt like an idiot.

Jason Sands 53:45 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:45 Like, "I'm just not telling anybody this anymore."

Jason Sands 53:47 Yep.

Joe Rogan 53:48 Which totally makes sense.

Lenval Logan 53:49 Yep. Yeah.

Jason Sands 53:50 And it's the same thing that's happening on X and other platforms as well, is just people coming forward trying to speak their truth.

Joe Rogan 53:55 Mm-hmm.

Jason Sands 53:56 And they get shut down by people that don't, have never been there.

Joe Rogan 53:59 Sure.

Jason Sands 53:59 They're just opinionating.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Yeah. But this, that's just toxic internet. That's just the f-

Lenval Logan 54:04 100%.

Joe Rogan 54:05 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 54:05 I agree with you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:06 It's just human beings th- do, online, they're just not good at it. We're not good. This, it's too new. We suck at it. We're real shitty to each other.

Jason Sands 54:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:14 You know? And it's, and too many people, it's like they're mentally ill.

Jason Sands 54:18 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:18 And what I, what I mean by mentally ill is like if you're on Twitter 12 hours a day, and you're, you're constantly tweeting before you go to bed, you're mentally ill. You might not think you're mentally ill.

Jason Sands 54:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:26 Just like when you're an alcoholic, you're mentally ill.

Jason Sands 54:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:28 If you're a gambling addict, you're mentally ill. You're not well.

Jason Sands 54:31 Right.

Lenval Logan 54:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:31 Right? You're fucking trying to bet your house on a football game. You're out of your fucking mind.

Jason Sands 54:35 Right. You're addicted. Just probably-

Joe Rogan 54:36 Yeah. You're mentally ill. You're mentally ill if you're on Twitter all day just arguing with people.

Jason Sands 54:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:40 It's, it's just the nature of the technology and the, the very crude way that people interact with each other, which is, leads you to think that as technology evolves and it gets to the point where we're, we're communicating telepathy, through telepathy, telepathically, like supposedly they can, it sort of eliminates the need to even know our language.

Jason Sands 54:59 Correct.

Joe Rogan 54:59 They can just come and, and give us thoughts and ex- express things in a pure way-

Jason Sands 55:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:05 ... without the need to like decipher it through syntax and ...

Lenval Logan 55:08 But there's still the m- the worry of misinterpretation because I, well, my family was pretty religious. And when I was growing up, they're like, "God is omnipotent. God knows everything. God doesn't make mistakes and everything." And then I was like, "Uh."Eh, that's not exactly true. But if you think that God is omnipotent and he's communicating with everybody, how is it that all the leaders of a certain church have different views on how we're supposed to talk to God if God is-

Joe Rogan 55:33 Right.

Lenval Logan 55:34 ... why isn't he just saying-

Jason Sands 55:35 It, it is a personal experience, really.

Lenval Logan 55:36 Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Sands 55:37 And, and it's the same thing with the, uh, thing with the NHI is that, like you're saying, you'd like to put a pattern to it.

Joe Rogan 55:44 Yeah.

Jason Sands 55:44 But maybe there's not. There's some, you know, very random things that have happened in other en- encounters. But there are some of them that do seem to have a concerted effort, a prolonged effort from maybe even millennia, um, because we do see, like, old stone, uh, ancient, you know, monuments and monoliths that do have these depictions of what look exactly like grays.

Lenval Logan 56:04 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:04 Yeah.

Jason Sands 56:05 You know?

Joe Rogan 56:05 The craziest one is in Australia. The one that's on the wall where there's all these dudes with the big eyes.

Jason Sands 56:10 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:10 I forget where...

Lenval Logan 56:11 There's a, there's a couple of places where that is.

Joe Rogan 56:13 Towns, towns in Australia.

Jason Sands 56:13 There's a couple of those, yeah, cave paintings that are like that, yeah.

Lenval Logan 56:15 Where are those from?

Joe Rogan 56:17 Do you remember?

Jason Sands 56:17 Uh, I think there's some down in, uh, uh, South America.

Joe Rogan 56:21 I saved one. I'll send it to you, Jamie, 'cause it just-

Jason Sands 56:23 Yeah. I read so much stuff that-

Joe Rogan 56:24 I saw it the other day online and it freaked me out so much, I saved it on my phone. I was like, "This is so crazy just to look at." It's so weird.

Jason Sands 56:30 Yeah. And there's one on the side of a, like, a hillside or a, a, a cliff face.

Joe Rogan 56:34 Yeah.

Jason Sands 56:34 Yeah. That was another one.

Lenval Logan 56:34 May I ask why it, why it, why it freaked you out? This-

Jason Sands 56:37 I think that was Arizona.

Joe Rogan 56:38 Um, well because-

Jason Sands 56:39 Or Grand Canyon.

Joe Rogan 56:40 I just sent it to Jamie. We can take a look at it right here. Jamie, you could throw, run that through a Google search so you can find out where it is. Or I'll do that while you put it up on the screen. Um, it freaks me out because these people were starving. These people were, like, barely getting by, right? They, they have stone tools and they took the time to draw these things with these, like, weird helmets on and these big black eyes, which is very similar to so many different encounters that people have.

Jason Sands 57:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:10 They, they all describe a very similar thing, a big head with giant black eyes.

Jason Sands 57:16 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 57:16 So, so those are the typical grays, but I heard in South America, there were people that they showed that picture to and they called them the ant people because they said they came from underground.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Yo.

Jason Sands 57:27 (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:28 Well, that's, that's the other question. Like, we're just sort of assuming that these things are definitely from another planet, that they're-

Jason Sands 57:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:37 ... not here and they haven't been here all along. But that is just an assumption.

Jason Sands 57:41 Isn't that the Anasazi and the Nav- Navajo, I think, both of them have the ant people.

Joe Rogan 57:43 So yeah, this, these are aboriginal drawings or aboriginal paintings.

Lenval Logan 57:46 Yes.

Jason Sands 57:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 57:47 So this is from Australia, which is just-

Jason Sands 57:49 Australia, yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:50 ... wild.

Jason Sands 57:50 And you get 'em all over the world.

Joe Rogan 57:51 All over the world. All over the world.

Jason Sands 57:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:52 And real similar all over the world.

Lenval Logan 57:54 Yes.

Jason Sands 57:54 Yeah. You got 'em in Ireland-

Joe Rogan 57:55 Yeah.

Jason Sands 57:55 ... Europe. You got 'em in the United States, got Central, Central America, everywhere.

Lenval Logan 57:58 And the vast majority of those children that saw a UAP, uh, that came down near their school, if there was an entity that was there, it was usually the typical gray-looking-

Joe Rogan 58:08 Mm.

Lenval Logan 58:08 ... ones that were there.

Joe Rogan 58:09 Well, the ones that they saw in Varginha, Brazil are kinda similar, but they seem like a darker color. Like, it was almost like a purple, right?

Jason Sands 58:16 Yeah. It was reddish purple or something like that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:18 But they did have the black eyes and the large heads and-

Jason Sands 58:21 They had horns, though. There was a-

Joe Rogan 58:22 They had horns. Oh, Jesus.

Jason Sands 58:23 There was a very specific thing that they said-

Lenval Logan 58:25 Well, th- the pictures that we're seeing for Varginha, this one had red eyes. And the reason why I'm bringing that up is because a friend of mine contacted me, a mutual friend that we talked about.

Jason Sands 58:36 Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Lenval Logan 58:36 He talked... He, uh, he was talking about something known as the Dover Demon, and it's over by Dover, Dover, Delaware.

Joe Rogan 58:44 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 58:45 And there was supposed to be an incident where a, a UAP came down and there was a creature and it looked a lot like the Varginha creature with the red eyes and whatever. So he was asking-

Joe Rogan 58:56 That's what the Varginha things look... Oh, that's the Dover Demon?

Lenval Logan 58:59 Yeah.

Jason Sands 58:59 That's the Dover.

Lenval Logan 58:59 But, but-

Joe Rogan 58:59 Yeah, that looks like a shoebill bird, that crazy bird.

Jason Sands 59:02 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 59:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:03 Doesn't it?

Lenval Logan 59:03 But he said it had bright red eyes and-

Joe Rogan 59:06 Oh, fun. Imagine that.

Lenval Logan 59:07 ... see, see like the-

Joe Rogan 59:07 Imagine running into that thing in the night.

Lenval Logan 59:09 Right. So the question was-

Joe Rogan 59:10 With glowing eyes.

Jason Sands 59:10 Never sleeping eyes. Never sleeping in.

Joe Rogan 59:12 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 59:13 All I know is, I... Like I told Travis-

Joe Rogan 59:15 It does look a lot like the Varginha one, though.

Lenval Logan 59:17 Yeah.

Jason Sands 59:17 It does.

Joe Rogan 59:17 That is... Go back to that last drawing you drew, Jamie. Oh, you pull up, pulled up, rather. Now if you can, will you pull up the image of the Varginha drawing? 'Cause they had an art- artist, uh, who talked to the little girls that saw that. And those women... And, you know, the, the realie- that... Look at it. Come on, man.

Jason Sands 59:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:34 That looks exactly the same.

Lenval Logan 59:36 Yeah.

Jason Sands 59:36 See, and there's those bumps on the head, though.

Lenval Logan 59:38 Yeah.

Jason Sands 59:38 But yeah, you can see the (crosstalk) maybe that's-

Joe Rogan 59:39 That's exactly the same fucking thing, man.

Lenval Logan 59:41 Right.

Joe Rogan 59:41 Like, literally exactly.

Jason Sands 59:42 Yep.

Lenval Logan 59:43 So I, I, I told-

Joe Rogan 59:44 That's crazy.

Lenval Logan 59:44 I told Travis, "If you ever see... If you ever get me to go to, come to Skinwalker Ranch," I said, "know that I've got a plan." And he was like, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "I will not be the slowest runner." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:56 Boo.

Lenval Logan 59:57 Okay? However, I will not be the fastest runner because I don't, because I don't know what's really going on there. I don't want to run from one thing into another. So I'm gonna make sure I have an escape plan. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:08 I went to Skinwalker Ranch.

Lenval Logan 1:00:09 Oh, you did?

Joe Rogan 1:00:10 Yeah.

Jason Sands 1:00:11 Wow. How'd that go?

Joe Rogan 1:00:12 Well, we, I was doing it for a television show and, uh, we interviewed a bunch of people that lived there. And, uh, one guy... There was a lot of, there was a lot of people that they wanted to be interviewed and then when we got there, they chickened out. Uh, it seemed like there might be some drug use going on in the surrounding areas.

Jason Sands 1:00:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:27 Uh, a few people seemed like a little on tilt, but I think that's a good part of, uh, America.

Lenval Logan 1:00:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:33 I think there's a lot of people, you could find some packets of people in America that are just doing drugs. Uh, so I wouldn't say that that was what it was, but this one guy that I talked to didn't seem like that at all. He seemed very respectable. I don't remember what he did-

Jason Sands 1:00:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 ... um, but he was a very smart guy, blue-collar guy, and, uh, lived in this, uh, very modest house. And he had this story of this thing, um, that flew into, uh, his yard and through his house. And he said it was a small orb and he said it seemed to be communicating with him. And-

Lenval Logan 1:01:05 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 This guy didn't have any other bullshit stories. He didn't have any claims of-

Jason Sands 1:01:10 Just the one off.

Joe Rogan 1:01:10 Just this one experience that he said was beautiful, he said was incredible, that this thing seemed like it was alive. It seemed like it was communicating with him. And it went right through the walls and then it-

Lenval Logan 1:01:20 Hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:01:20 And it went through the wall again and disappeared.

Lenval Logan 1:01:22 I've had a similar case. So...... every March, I go to Seaside, Oregon, 'cause they have a paranormal conference. And I- I'm not into the paranormal stuff, but my friends are.

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 (laughs)

Narrator 1:01:31 So, I wanna listen and I wanna learn, 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:01:33 Right. Yeah.

Narrator 1:01:34 'Cause this is me get- trying to get over my fear of going in there. And-

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 You have a fear of paranormal or a fear of being around the people that believe in paranormal?

Lenval Logan 1:01:41 No, f- uh, the paranormal because of certain things that I've heard from when I was a kid. You know, and you have to overcome some of those childhood fears and stuff like that.

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 Oh, okay.

Lenval Logan 1:01:49 So when I was there, I was, uh, giving a s- talking about my app and all this other stuff. And these two Asian ladies were watching me walk on the stage, and I was like, "Why are they looking at me like that?" I was like, "Is my flies down or something?"

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 1:02:02 "What did I do?" You know? And as soon as I stepped off the stage, and they said, "Mr., Mr. Logan, what are they? What are they?" And I was like, "What do you mean?" She pulls out, on her phone, the most beautiful, pristine picture of an orb sitting in a doorway. And I'm like, "What happened there?" And she said, "It was my birthday." And then she said, "All my family was there." And she said, "But I got tired, so I was laying down." And she said, "I heard, like, this electrical discharge going on."

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Mm-hmm.

Lenval Logan 1:02:31 And she said it came right through her wall, started floating across her room. She said it got to her doorway. She screamed, and all her family came. And the, the son, I guess it was, took the picture of the orb. And I was so amazed by her story, I- I even forgot to ask her to give me a copy of the picture and how long-

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 How long ago was this?

Lenval Logan 1:02:50 This was, like, two years ago. We-

Joe Rogan 1:02:52 So fairly modern phone.

Lenval Logan 1:02:54 Yeah. It was a, it was an iPhone. Um, she was, um, they were from Northern California, and they drove up to this, to this thing. And I'm just like, "So what happened?" She said, she said, "It actually sat there and did this," puh-puh, puh-puh, puh-puh, like a heartbeat getting bigger and smaller.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 Whoa.

Lenval Logan 1:03:13 And then she said, "It just kinda went back out the way it came in." And she goes, "What are they? You- you- you were on the task force. Don't you know about these things?" And I was like, "Whoa," you know? We're not omnipotent (laughs) you know?

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 1:03:26 We're trying to learn just like you are. And- and- and every year, I've been back there twice now, and, uh, every year, I go, "Hey, if those two Asian (laughs) ladies are in here, can we talk?" And they haven't shown back up, but-

Joe Rogan 1:03:39 Hm.

Lenval Logan 1:03:40 But he sounded just like your story of what happened to this other individual.

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 Yeah, he was the only guy that was compelling. There was a bunch of other people that had goofy stories of bulletproof wolves that appeared out of the mist. And like, okay.

Lenval Logan 1:03:49 (laughs)

Narrator 1:03:49 Hm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:50 They just seemed like some people who just wanted to be on TV, which is normal, right?

Lenval Logan 1:03:55 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:55 You show up with cameras-

Lenval Logan 1:03:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 ... people tell stories. And this is another show that I worked on once. Uh, it was called Game Show in My Head, and this is pretty funny. We, uh, told people... So there was a... The game show was we would take a contestant. The contestant knew that they were gonna pull pranks on people, but they didn't know what the prank was gonna be. And so we, we had a piece in their ear, and we would put them out in the public. And my thing was, uh, that I had to tell them that they are, um, a news reporter, and that someone had just seen a UFO and had an encounter with an alien, uh, right there in Hollywood. But the person who was the witness took off. Would you be willing to go on camera and say it was you? And everybody said yes. They all did.

Lenval Logan 1:04:42 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 And people had crazy stories.

Narrator 1:04:45 Hm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:45 They talked about being abducted and being on the ship and experi- and they were communicating with me. They just fully made up stories.

Lenval Logan 1:04:53 (laughs)

Narrator 1:04:53 Hm.

Joe Rogan 1:04:53 And, uh, that was an eye-opener for me. I was like, wow, you put a camera on people, they just are so hyped to be on TV, they just bullshit you.

Narrator 1:05:01 Yeah, they, they can.

Joe Rogan 1:05:02 That was- 'Cause the guy-

Lenval Logan 1:05:03 That's pretty good.

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 The guy who was in on it was shocked too.

Narrator 1:05:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:06 'Cause he was like, "I can't believe this. These people just started fucking lying."

Narrator 1:05:09 Yeah, when you get aggrandized like that, that's where you kinda have people that do that is just to aggrandize or enlarge themselves, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:05:15 Sure. Everybody wants to-

Narrator 1:05:17 But-

Joe Rogan 1:05:17 ... e- especially when you put a camera on people.

Narrator 1:05:18 But then you get, with, and with other people, like the, the whistleblowers I know-

Joe Rogan 1:05:21 Yeah.

Narrator 1:05:21 ... they've pretty much given up everything, like me, you know

1:05:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 But this guy was not interested in, you know, much attention. He just-

Narrator 1:05:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:28 ... wanted to tell us his story. And he was a regular dude.

Lenval Logan 1:05:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Like, we talked about all kinds of stuff. He had a big trout on his wall. It was l- we would, he had a, a trout... Like, when they make trophies out of fish, they don't really make trophies anymore. They, now what they do is they take a photo and the measurements, and then they make, like, a plastic version of that fish that looks exactly like it.

Narrator 1:05:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 That's how they do it. But this guy had, like, a real trophy fish that he had mounted. I'm like, "They don't even do that anymore." So I-

Narrator 1:05:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:52 ... a- started asking him questions and-

Lenval Logan 1:05:53 Game Show in My Head thing.

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 Yeah, that's it. Um-

Lenval Logan 1:05:56 (clears throat)

Narrator 1:05:56 Wow.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 ... but... A long time ago.

Narrator 1:05:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 But-

Lenval Logan 1:05:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:58 ... the point is, th- this guy was a sincere dude. He was telling me how he caught the fi-... You know, when I'm asking people questions about stuff, I wanna know how you think. You know? I wa- When I'm talking to some guy that tells me he had an encounter with an orb, I wanna hear what you talk about. Like, how do you talk about you at work? How do you talk about you with your kids? How do you t- how do you treat your dog?

Narrator 1:06:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 You know, how do you... You know what I'm saying?

Narrator 1:06:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 Like, I'm trying to, like, get a gauge of this guy. He seemed super sincere.

Narrator 1:06:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:23 Just a regular good guy, very accommodating, like, very friendly.

Lenval Logan 1:06:26 You would've made a good analyst.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 Yeah.

Narrator 1:06:28 Maybe.

Lenval Logan 1:06:29 'Cause- 'cause- 'cause the- the thing that we're trying to do as the all-source analyst is to look at all aspects of what happened.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 1:06:35 And sometimes people just go in there... Well, I mean, the- the thing that really upsets me is, when I was part of the task force, was someone just handing me a picture and just going, "So what is it?"

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Oh, right, right, right.

Lenval Logan 1:06:46 No context, no nothing.

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 Right, right, right.

Lenval Logan 1:06:48 You're just like...

Narrator 1:06:49 Uh, okay. (laughs)

Lenval Logan 1:06:50 (laughs) You know?

Joe Rogan 1:06:51 It could be fake.

Lenval Logan 1:06:52 Right, you know?

Narrator 1:06:52 Yeah, I don't know what the fuck that is.

Lenval Logan 1:06:53 So, uh-

Narrator 1:06:53 Let me put it through the image analyzer here.

Lenval Logan 1:06:55 Right. You know, "I don't know if you've had any mental issues or you know..."

Joe Rogan 1:06:58 Right, right.

Lenval Logan 1:06:59 Y- uh, "I mean, someone showed me something that..." It was a button on a glass. And I- at first, I was like, "That looks really intriguing." But there was something about it that was just... It wasn't quite right. And I'm like, "I think this is fake, but I don't know why."

Narrator 1:07:15 (laughs)

Lenval Logan 1:07:15 And then finally, the guy said, "Ah-ha-ha-ha," you know? Button on a glass, you know? (laughs) I was like-

Joe Rogan 1:07:19 That's the thing that...

Lenval Logan 1:07:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 Do you know that feel- have you ever seen photos of miniature cars?

Lenval Logan 1:07:24 Yes.

Jason Sands 1:07:25 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 1:07:25 There's that autistic kid that does that, those really good pictures.

Jason Sands 1:07:27 I was just looking at that yesterday. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:28 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 1:07:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:29 But there's, but the, what I was getting at, there's something wrong with the car that even in a photo you know it's not a real car.

Lenval Logan 1:07:36 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:07:36 You know it's a miniature car.

Jason Sands 1:07:37 Your, your brain is very good at that, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:39 It's real ... That's a real weird one, because, m- it doesn't make sense. Like, there's a, a just, there's a perception. You look at it like, "Oh, that's a miniature car. That's a fake. That's like a Hot Wheel." Because they're really good now.

Jason Sands 1:07:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:51 Like, if you c- pull up a photo of, like, a, uh, uh, a miniature Mustang.

Jason Sands 1:07:58 Yeah.

Lenval Logan 1:07:59 There's an-

Joe Rogan 1:07:59 And they-

Lenval Logan 1:07:59 There's an autistic kid out there that he-

Jason Sands 1:08:01 That's all he does.

Lenval Logan 1:08:02 That's all he does. He gets miniature cars and puts them in a real background, but he's-

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 Oh, I've seen that. Yeah. I've seen that. Yeah. So these are miniatures? Yeah. Those are fakes. Okay. Well, that- In the red background. That's really good.

Lenval Logan 1:08:13 Yeah. That's kind of the, the quality.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 That's good. That's really good.

Lenval Logan 1:08:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:14 That's a lot better than normal.

Jason Sands 1:08:16 Yeah. But you could see the tires are not resting, you know, flat, like, there's weight to the car.

Lenval Logan 1:08:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:20 Oh. That's a good point.

Jason Sands 1:08:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 That's a good point. Um.

Jason Sands 1:08:23 See, those are things an ana- as an analyst, you, you look at in the image. It's just you, you're looking at, you know, uh, things like that kind of stuff.

Lenval Logan 1:08:29 Actually, yeah, that's the kid, 13-year-old kid who submitted this in.

Jason Sands 1:08:31 There you go. Yeah. That's him.

Joe Rogan 1:08:32 Oh, okay. So he's really good at it.

Lenval Logan 1:08:34 He's really good.

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 'Cause these, these, look, other than what you said, Jay, that you don't see the weight of the tires.

Jason Sands 1:08:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:08:39 Um, but l- it's, like, okay, that one right there, that Nissan, click on that one, the blue one. Yeah. That's a Nissan GTR. I'm looking at that, and