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Joe Rogan Experience #2275 - Magnus Carlsen

Magnus Carlsen is a chess grandmaster. He is a five-time World Chess Champion, five-time World Rapid Chess Champion, and a reigning World Blitz Chess Champion. http://www.magnuscarlsen.com This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Zero Day is now playing, only on Netflix.

Joe RoganhostMagnus Carlsenguest
Feb 20, 20252h 17mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:46

    Magnus Carlsen’s origin story: learning chess, sibling rivalry, and early obsessions

    1. NA

      (drum roll) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

    2. NA

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. JR

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) All right, we're up and rolling. Magnets crossed, ladies and gentlemen. You want some coffee?

    4. MC

      No. Oh, this is water. Yeah, excellent.

    5. JR

      We, uh, tell Jeff we're bringing the coffee. Forgot to bring in the coffee.

    6. MC

      No, no, I'm good with water.

    7. JR

      Well, I need coffee. I wanna keep up with you, buddy. (laughs)

    8. MC

      (laughs)

    9. JR

      And of course, Tony Hinchcliffe is here, who's a, a gigantic chess fan, and d- just creamed his pants yesterday when I told him you were coming in. And then immediately, I said, "You gotta come with me." And so-

    10. MC

      Yeah.

    11. JR

      ... Tony's here as well. It's an honor to meet you, man. Um, I, I, I'm always fascinated by people that are at the top of something that's insanely difficult, like chess. And I'm always wondering, like, how much time is involved? How much, how often do you play? And whe- when did you start? How old were you when you first started playing?

    12. MC

      I think my dad... My dad is an avid chess player, so I think he, uh, t- thought that I might have some talent, so he thought... He taught me pretty early, at r- around five years old. But at that time, I wasn't that interested. Uh, I was mostly into LEGOs and I was into maths and, like, sports stats, and I had my little flag book with all, um, all the countries in the world, their flags and their inhabitants and area and everything. And I sort of... That w- that's what I did (laughs) uh, generally, just, um, taking in all the s- all the stats that I could also with, with sports, reading the sports section every day. And I didn't find chess that fun. Uh, a couple of years later, uh, my older sister is a year and a half older than me. She had a... She did a lot of chess with, with my dad. I started sitting in on them a bit, and, um, I, I started liking it. I really, really wanted to beat my sister as well at generally everything.

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. MC

      And, uh, yeah, from there on, it really just became, um, became my thing, and it's, you know, been my main hobby and, uh, eventually work as well since.

    15. JR

      Yeah, obviously. (laughs)

    16. MC

      Yeah.

    17. JR

      It's fu- It's so funny though. A spark, a competitive spark with your sister is really what ignited you to get going with it.

    18. MC

      Yeah, the, the funny thing is, like, she's not competitive at all.

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. MC

      So she hated the fact that I, like... I wanted to play, especially when I, I, I realized that I could beat her. Uh, and she, she, she liked chess, but she stopped for, for a while and only started when I had become, like, good enough that there wasn't a competition. So it turned like, like... My dad was right after all. I just needed, um, I just needed that, um, that extra push.

    21. JR

      Yeah, what a, what a call. "I think you've got some talent." What a call. (laughs)

  2. 2:46 – 3:42

    Child prodigies today and why chess improvement is accelerating

    1. NA

      Grandmaster at 12, was it?

    2. MC

      Um, 13. So actually the, um, the record is, um, the record is 12, but, uh, most kids these days, honestly, they, they start so early. Uh, I was at a tournament in India a few months ago, and there's this guy who's like a 1600 rated player, and he's three years old.

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. MC

      And like I, I'm seeing...

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. MC

      I'm seeing the, I'm seeing the games, like they are actually, they're actually decent. Um, and yeah, now they're... There's this one kid from Argentina, like, they call him the Messi of chess, who's g- gonna become a grandmaster soon. I think he's, he's only 10. So they're-

    7. JR

      (exhales)

    8. MC

      ... they're really, really, uh, playing early these days. But it's, it's, it's good to see though, because, like, information is so easily accessible these days. Like, it takes a lot shorter time to, to get, to get good at something.

  3. 3:42 – 9:56

    The cheating controversy, ‘anal beads,’ and why suspicion spreads in elite chess

    1. JR

      Well, it seems like now, uh, chess, because of social media and bec-... It's like everything else. It's kind of exploding 'cause there's so many fascinating videos out. And then, of course, there was like the big controversy with that, uh, young man who you believe is a, a big old cheater. That guy. I, I, I need to know, the anal beads thing. Is that a legitimate theory?

    2. MC

      So it actually started in one of, uh, my friend's streamer channel that, like, one random guy said... Made, made a comment l- about anal beads.

    3. JR

      (laughs)

    4. MC

      And he was, and he was like, "Uh, yeah, maybe." And then, uh, I think it, it became... It started taking the rounds in Reddit, and then Elon saw it, tweeted about it, and then obviously-

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. MC

      ... it blew up. Um, I, I actually spoke to, um... I, I think it was Mar- Mark Andreessen who said, like, "That would be one way to do it."

    7. JR

      Yes. (laughs)

    8. NA

      (laughs)

    9. MC

      But I really, really, really don't believe that that has happened. Like, I think it has no, um, no connection to reality, but it just became it's... A thing of its own.

    10. NA

      Le-

    11. JR

      So unfortunately, this young man... We- we'll explain the anal beads thing. But this, this young man is a very talented player, but does, has... Have a history of some shenanigans, correct? And even admitted that he did a little bit of cheating in order to move his rating higher so he could play better players.

    12. MC

      Uh, yeah, I mean, he- he's not admitted to nearly the extent of, of his, of his cheating. Uh, but if you sort of, um... If you sort of s- take what, what chess.com say, then yeah, um, his... He cheated a bunch online in, uh, in a certain period of time. Um, partly in tournaments, but mostly in, in casual games as h- as it is said himself to, um, to sort of, uh, get himself up the standings and play the best players in the world.

    13. JR

      But he is a very good player.

    14. MC

      I think he has become a good... Very good player, yeah.

    15. JR

      Interesting. Okay. So what made you convinced that he was cheating in that particular game? And by what method do you think he could possibly have been doing this?

    16. NA

      Could you hear something? Was it like, "Be-uh?" (laughs) You're hearing vibrations.

    17. JR

      (laughs) You see his, his sh- his seat shift.

    18. NA

      (laughs) Yeah.

    19. JR

      Oh.

    20. NA

      You're smelling something. There's a whiff of something in the air.

    21. MC

      Um, yeah, I mean, that would have been, um, that would have been the smoking gun, I suppose. But, uh...

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. NA

      (laughs)

    24. MC

      I think it w- th- there was a combination of, um, of things though, uh, based on, you know, the chess level that I, uh, that I thought that he, he had and that I'd seen from, from his game, both playing against him, analyzing a little with him, and looking at his, at his other games. Um, there were a lot of stories, um, back then. Um, the thing is, also, there's, um, there's a Netflix documentary coming in a few months that sort of ex- where I'm telling my side of the story. Um, so I like, I cannot go too deep into, uh, into everything. But what I can say was that there were, there were a lot of factors, um, that made me very, very suspicious. Um, and, um, I think ever since then, he has become better. Uh, but there's some- still something, uh, there's still something off, um, both then and, and now. But yeah.

    25. JR

      That's so fascinating that as an elite chess player, you'd be able to recognize that something is happening that's outside of his capabilities.

    26. MC

      Again, um, I'm not ruling out the factor that chess players are becoming more and more paranoid because we do have chess engines that basically have perfect chess, right? Like, anybody with their, their phone can, as I think Elon tweeted to, to Gary once, like, "My iPhone can beat you at chess."

    27. JR

      (laughs)

    28. MC

      Which is, which is, whi- which is the truth. And this means that, you know, anybody having access to information, it's, it's incredibly, it's inc- incredibly dangerous. And I think top-level chess has been a lot based on, on trust. And, um, whenever you have outsiders whom there are these stories about, everybody gets a bit, a bit jittery. There, there's like as- people who either like they burst onto the scene then they, then they establish themselves and people, people know that they're legit and so on. That it's, it's not, um, it's not a problem. With, with him specifically, um, I don't know. It, it was, um... It's just he doesn't seem to be playing or didn't at that point seem to be playing with, um, with a, a particular style. It seemed that he either played kind of eh, or he just more or less played any position very well in, in certain games. Like he could just switch from tactical to positional play very easily. And (sighs) uh, it was, um, yeah. It, it didn't, didn't smell good to me. It still, it still doesn't. But, um, you know, to some extent, like he, he had his, uh, he had his lawsuit. We've all kind of moved a little bit on. I think I don't trust him. A lot of other top players still don't trust him. Um, he certainly doesn't, uh, doesn't trust me or Chess.com or Hikaru or, or whomever he felt wronged by. Um, but it's just...

  4. 9:56 – 14:14

    How over-the-board cheating can happen: earpieces, signals, weak security, and deterrence

    1. JR

      The problem is like once someone admits that they cheated a game, especially a game that has a lot of trust in it like chess, you're always going to think like, "Is he cheating now?" Always. But the question is like, what method? Like what, what do people do? So if you're sitting there, you have no phone. Your pockets are empty. Like what could you be doing that could possibly be aiding you?

    2. MC

      Well, first of all, like an invisible earpiece, um, that people use for exams and so on. Like-

    3. JR

      So but he would have to have a partner with that, right?

    4. MC

      Uh yeah, uh, he, he would, yeah.

    5. JR

      Yeah.

    6. MC

      Um, that would not have been detected by the security system that they, um, they used at that tournament. Um, they amped up the security after the whole thing happened.

    7. JR

      Did they check your ears with those devices?

    8. MC

      Yeah, yeah. They, they start checking their, our ears and then, um, you know, we had a live tournament in, in Paris last year when I played him, where there was proper security, where all of these things were h- picked up. And he didn't like, he didn't play n- to nearly the same uh, to nearly the same level there. Um, so I think I, I... Well, I'm not an expert in all of that, but that's what I've heard from people that that's like the most obvious thing that it could've, uh, that someone could have done. And it wouldn't be really that hard to pull off, considering the kind of, um, security we have at, at chess tournaments. And this tournament had like a little bit of security. A lot of them, like open tournaments, uh, people are like wandering in and out of the playing hall. There are people in the playing hall, like spectators with their, um, um, with their smartphones uh, on, and taking pictures or, or whatever, like going in and out, like they could make signals. It's, it's...

    9. JR

      Mm.

    10. MC

      Um, yeah. It, it's, it's, it's (laughs) it's, it's hard. It's, it's a big problem in chess for sure.

    11. JR

      Yeah. The an- so the anal beads thing, for people who don't know what we're talking about, the, the theory was that he had vibrating anal beads that would somehow or another through some sort of code explain to him the moves.

    12. MC

      And I've thought about this for a lot longer than I care to admit, like what (laughs) -

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. MC

      ... what kind of code are you getting from inside your butt that you're like, "Okay, got it"?

    15. NA

      Well, it would be like, you know, C4 or whatever. Like it could tell you by- (phone vibrating)

    16. MC

      But how would it say it in your butt though?

    17. NA

      ... ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Well, I mean-

    18. MC

      It's Morse code?

    19. NA

      ... I'd have to show you. (laughs)

    20. MC

      (laughs)

    21. NA

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      (laughs)

    23. MC

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      Luckily, I brought one. (laughs)

    25. NA

      Yeah. Have some in right now. No, it would be like, it would, it would buzz, right? It would buzz the letters and then the numbers that would indicate where you would move, and there would only be a piece or two.

    26. MC

      So like the first three vibrations would be letter C, and then... Yeah. Okay.

    27. JR

      Um, i- i- yeah. It's just a sort of techno- technological version of ways people have cheated before. There was a scandal back in 2010, where, um, the captain of the French team was helping one of his, um, uh, one of the French players by cheating. He was basically just standing in certain spots around the table to tell him where to-

    28. NA

      Wow.

    29. JR

      ... where to move.

    30. MC

      Oh, wow.

  5. 14:14 – 21:31

    What makes great chess players: patterns, intuition, obsession, and keeping it fun

    1. JR

      There's just such a... It is such a fascinating game because it's impossible to play if you're dumb. Like there's games that you could just be a savant, like an idiot savant. But chess is like, it's the most impressive thing for people to be unbelievably good at.

    2. MC

      I don't know. I think you can be, I think you can be dumb and be like fairly good at, at chess. Um, I think it, like some intelligence certainly, certainly helps. But after all, um, you... A lot of chess is about learning patterns, right? And basically, anybody can, can do that. So like applying them at a higher level, learning how to evaluate and so on, that sort of is what sets the, really the best players apart from merely good players. But I feel like anybody could come, become quite decent at, um, at the game. But I do love the fact that, you know, there are no coincidences, like there are no outside factors. Well, if you, uh, if you don't-

    3. JR

      Other than cheating.

    4. MC

      Other than cheating, of course. Um, but it's just, um, yeah, you're either outsmarting your opponent or you're getting outsmarted.

    5. JR

      So, for a guy like you that excels above all, what is the difference in your preparation? Is it just simply who you are as a person, you think? Or is it something about the difference in your preparation without giving away any secrets, obviously?

    6. MC

      (laughs) Um, y- I'm like known in the chess world for being like a little bit lazy, I think. Uh, the thing is that I, um...

    7. JR

      Can I pause you there?

    8. MC

      Wha- wha- what? Yeah, yeah.

    9. JR

      What do you mean lazy? Like, how is that possible?

    10. MC

      No, the thing is like, I've never been the kind of person who wakes up in the morning, works six, seven hours in, in chess like a normal, a normal job. And then, um...

    11. NA

      Because a lot of them study computers and stuff.

    12. MC

      Yeah. E- e- exactly. Like I've, I think about the game all the time, like I play online. I, I look at, I look at games. I may read some-

    13. JR

      Do you ever play anonymously?

    14. MC

      I used to do that all the time. Um...

    15. JR

      What a bloodbath that must be. (laughs)

    16. NA

      (laughs)

    17. MC

      But, but I think I got humbled, um, one time by this Russian Grand Master who, um, asked, somebody else asked me, like if a certain account on a certain website was me. And I was like, "Yeah, um, I don't know. Like, I don't know who that is." And this guy went like, "Yes, that is you." And he listed off like five other accounts that I thought nobody knew about. (laughs)

    18. JR

      Oh, wow.

    19. MC

      That were, that were-

    20. JR

      How did they know?

    21. MC

      ... also me.

    22. JR

      By the way you play?

    23. MC

      Yeah, I think it's, it's playing strength, playing style, because I, I tried to switch up my openings on different accounts to not make it obvious that it's, it's me. And I have like a style where I switch that up a lot, so it makes it a bit easier. But I think you could just tell by, um, by the playing style, so.

    24. JR

      That is crazy.

    25. MC

      These, these days, I just, I play with my, um, my own name. Um, I like, I'm, I don't really care about that anymore.

    26. JR

      Yeah. Um, so do most professional players study chess all day long at the highest level?

    27. MC

      I think, um, I think quite a few do. Uh, I, I mean, I don't know, like people's day-to-day activities. So-

    28. JR

      You guys don't talk about it?

    29. MC

      Not that much. Um, the people that I've worked with, they certainly study chess a lot. Uh, but others, I'm, I'm not quite sure. Um, the thing is that chess has always like still been a bit of a hobby for me, that once it start, starts to feel like work, then...... it, it's, it's, it's harder for me. I had a, I had a chess coach when I was, uh, when I was little. I, I went to have sessions once a week, which I loved, and then he started giving me homework and I, yeah, I, I, I told him, like quickly, like, "I, yeah, I don't, I don't like, I don't like homework."

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  6. 21:31 – 26:45

    Genes vs environment and why grandmaster parents don’t reliably produce grandmaster kids

    1. MC

      Uh, I think it has to be a, um, a, I mean, a variety of factors. I think there's no doubt that I'm incredibly naturally gifted at the game. Like, otherwise, I wouldn't have come, come this far. And my, my dad, um, is incredibly good with, with numbers. He started playing chess quite late but became, um, uh, but, but became decent. Like, my mother was quite smart and my, my sisters are very, uh, intelligent too. So like, it's clear that, you know, um, there, there are, uh, s- some good, good genes. And I just, you know, I happened to find also an environment early on, um, where I lived near Oslo, which had, um, the, probably the best chess environment there was in, in Norway at the very least, where there were, um, there, I had access to, to coaches and I had access to, like, a little training group of, of other ambitious kids. Um, a- after that, you know, um, I think the most important thing that I've, that I've done is that I haven't really listened to people who want me to do things, like, a certain way, because that's the way things have always been done, especially with, uh, the Soviet chess school. That was the dominant one for, for so many years. So, I've always sort of gone my own way, uh, tried to have as much, um, fun. Everything has to be about enjoyment. And yeah, I, I, I cannot tell you why, but I just, like, understand the game better, better than the others. Like I, I'm, I don't calculate necessarily as far as the other, but my intuition, like for short lines, um, constantly evaluating is, is just, is just better.

    2. JR

      It just... It, it, it's always just such an interesting thing to analyze, like high performers, you know, and just to wonder, like, what it is that separates high performers. When you say your father started playing late, how old was he?

    3. MC

      Oh, I think he started playing, um, yep, about 14, 15-

    4. JR

      (laughs)

    5. MC

      ... something like that. I, I, (laughs) in, in chess, that's, that's very... But he never-

    6. JR

      (sighs)

    7. MC

      ... he never like (laughs) took it, took it seriously enough that-

    8. JR

      Right, right.

    9. MC

      ... that he wanted to... Like, he, he pursued it, but, um-

    10. JR

      As a hobby. You could-

    11. MC

      As, as, as a hobby, yeah.

    12. JR

      Well, you, when you say take it seriously, you mean like you do.

    13. MC

      Yeah.

    14. JR

      Right? What... This is what makes me think about epigenetics. Like, uh, we, we still don't exactly know how much information is transferred between parents to children and it seems like there's a lot of talents, whether it's like singing talent or sports talent, that you have to wonder like, is that coming from genes or is that coming from the environment which this child grows up, which this person... Or is it a combination of all those factors? Like, I wonder if someone gets really... A v- very intelligent person gets very good at chess early on, I wonder if some information or some proclivity to... For the game-... gets transferred.

    15. MC

      I, I think, uh, the reaction in, in the chess community, at least with certain people, was, um, more along the lines of, "How could such a lousy player have such a good son at, (laughs) at chess-

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. MC

      ... with, with my dad?" Um, and the fact is as, as well, that I th- there are practically no, um... There, there are many couples of, um, you know, like both mother and father are grandmasters in chess, but I don't think any of them have had sons or daughters that are grandmasters. So-

    18. JR

      Oh, interesting.

    19. MC

      ... wh- wh- where, whereas you see anywhere, like in the NBA or the NHL or in football or wherever, like, it happens all the time. Um, so I, I do- I cannot say exactly w- why that is, but it does suggest that, you know, uh, it's not a given, at least with genetics that your, um, that your children are, are gonna do the same thing.

    20. JR

      I have an alternate theory for that. I wonder, if you're a child and your parents are absolutely obsessed with a game, if it's annoying, and it'll- and you're like, "Fuck this game. Like, I wanna go play in the park and my parents don't even pay attention to me. This is bullshit."

    21. NA

      Right.

    22. JR

      You know, like, like there's a lot of children of alcoholics that will not drink.

    23. MC

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      They won't even try it, 'cause they've seen the effects of it. I wonder that, if it's like you see... 'Cause chess is an obsessive game. Like, I remember when Howard Stern was playing it, and I would listen to him talk about it on the radio and about how he started hiring a coach, and he was playing all the time, and he's improving his rating and this. And I was like, "Oh, this is eating up your mind. Like, it's a game that gets in your bones."

    25. MC

      It, it really does because, like, the entry is not so easy, right? Like, you don't, like, just get it immediately and you, you don't necessarily get enjoyment out of it, uh, immediately as you start to play. So you have to spend, you have to spend time on it. And then, I think when you're trying to do something hard, then it becomes much more rewarding and it becomes... It's easier for that to become an obsession when, when it, you, you start to get that reward.

  7. 26:45 – 31:20

    Chess in pop culture and everyday obsession: falling asleep mid-game and playing in your head

    1. JR

      So, the good thing about that controversy with cheating was that I think it elevated the profile of chess, because it became mainstream news. It was like a big, a big issue. Did it... Like, I think there was a positive aspect of it, in terms of the publicity of the game. Do you, do you agree with that?

    2. MC

      Oh, yeah, for sure. Um, I, I think for, uh, for any, v- f- r- you know, for any field of, uh, that's trying to, to achieve something, you know, with s- with s- publicity, there's always going to be, um, a little bit of, of a negative with what exactly we're, we're connected with, right? Because this is, uh, everybody knows chess and cheating. But overall, I think it's been, it's been massively, um, massively positive. Um, you know, hopefully the, uh, the Netflix thing going, coming up in a year, even though like-

    3. JR

      Can you explain it to people, what the Netflix thing is?

    4. MC

      Yeah, it's, it's a N- Netflix Untold documentary. So basically it's a series of, uh, sports documentaries, and they're doing that. It's not something that I, like, wanted to necessarily be, be part of, but I do recognize the fact that these things raise the profile of, of, of the game. And, and you see now like every, everywhere people, uh, people, uh, like it... Chess is showing up in people's algorithms on YouTube, TikTok-

    5. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MC

      ... Instagram, everywhere. So it's just like much more in the, in the zeitgeist than it, it used to be.

    7. JR

      Yeah, it's, uh, it's certainly shown up on mine. It shows up on mine a lot. Yours, right?

    8. NA

      Oh, yeah.

    9. JR

      But you've always been a giant chess fan.

    10. NA

      Well, it's actually a newer thing, but (clears throat) when I, when I got into it, it was just everything. Now it's what I do right before bed. I fall asleep... Usually I fall asleep during actual games online on my phone.

    11. JR

      (laughs) You're driving them crazy

    12. NA

      Yeah.

    13. MC

      Yeah, that's-

    14. NA

      No, I'm-

    15. MC

      ... how, how could that, like how could that happen? (laughs)

    16. JR

      (laughs)

    17. NA

      I'm exhausted.

    18. MC

      What do you do when you wake up?

    19. JR

      (laughs)

    20. NA

      Oh, that's, that's, yeah. No, it's total opposite.

    21. JR

      You wake up and you lost.

    22. NA

      Coffee. Yeah.

    23. JR

      But, how do you-

    24. NA

      No. I, I wake up and I look at the board and it said, "You resigned," because I went over my time or whatever.

    25. JR

      Yeah.

    26. NA

      I, I ra- just ran out of time.

    27. JR

      How many times have you resigned?

    28. NA

      It happens an embarrassing a lot amount. It's... So how I fall asleep now is playing chess. But what you will appreciate is that when I fall asleep playing chess, like when I fall asleep, I'm still playing the game in my dreams sometimes. And sometimes the game will go all night and it'll be like this never-ending game and pieces will pop back up that have already gone.

    29. MC

      That, that sounds amazing. Like I would... Like obviously that would never happen to me.

    30. JR

      (laughs)

  8. 31:20 – 38:00

    Blindfold chess and memory: how Magnus visualizes 12 boards at once

    1. JR

      I played a little bit of chess when I was young but I- I never really got into it, but my real introduction where I got fascinated with chess was actually at a pool hall, because people in the pool hall would play chess sometimes. But there was this one guy who went to jail, and, uh, in jail he learned how to play chess with his head, in his- in his mind. And then there was a young kid who was a grandmaster, who was, like, 16, 17 years old, somewhere around that, really, really good chess player who kind of, like, lost his way and started hanging around in pool halls and gambling and being a weirdo. And I watched these two guys play chess with just words, and I was like, "What are you doing?"

    2. MC

      (laughs)

    3. JR

      Like, what are- I was like- I think I was 22 or 23 at the time, and I was like, "What are you doing?" And they were explaining to me that they're playing chess, memorizing the board in their head. And I'm like, "That's fucking crazy." And then I saw a video of you blindfolded playing how many people? How many- how many people did you play? What was the most people you've ever played blindfolded?

    4. MC

      I think I've played 12, uh, but the world record is something like 50.

    5. JR

      (laughs)

    6. MC

      It's- that's- that's- that's crazy. Like-

    7. JR

      12? You've played 12 people blindfolded?

    8. MC

      Yeah, um, uh, for me that's... Uh, as long as people are, uh, the people I'm playing are kind of decent at chess, that actually kind of make- that makes it easier because it's easier to store the games when I recognize the patterns and so on. When people start making weird moves that I cannot really recognize-

    9. JR

      So, here you are.

    10. MC

      Oh, so this- this is another one, actually. This is a blindfold timed simul, like there are fewer games, but what's difficult about these is that the moves do not come to me in a sequence. So, like, uh, the presenter will tell me, "On boo- on board, um, two, E takes D5." And then all of a sudden, "On board one, E6."

    11. JR

      Oh, right.

    12. MC

      And then on board- on board two again, and so on. So that- that makes a bit, um...

    13. JR

      Oh, so you have to jump back and forth. So in the other games there's a sequence where the player, even though if they know what move they're going to take, they must wait until their turn.

    14. MC

      Ex- exactly.

    15. JR

      Yeah.

    16. MC

      That's kind of the normal way of playing, um, of- of playing a simul. I think the last time that I played a proper blindfold simul was at an event, um, in Vienna back in, I- I think 2015. And then I had some very nice but spicy Chinese food before the game. I- I sat down and, like, my stomach was acting up, I couldn't think, so I- I- I played for 10 minutes, I realized that I cannot do this, I, like, I ran away for- for 15 minutes, and then I came back, and- (laughs)

    17. JR

      (laughs)

    18. MC

      ... I finished- I finished the game. But ever- ever since that, um, it feels like, um, I've ac- like I've done it, but it- and now it just seems incredibly- incredibly hard to, um, to do again, but...

    19. JR

      Do you prepare when you're doing something like this, when you're getting ready to do a blindfolded multi-game thing?

    20. MC

      Not- not really, because it's... Like, if- if my mind is on, then it's really not that hard, I feel, um, so no. Uh, I- the o- the preparation that I do is right there. I see my- my opponents, so, like, I sign a certain face to a certain seat, like a certain number and- and- and so on. Uh, so that's just about what- what I, uh- what I do.

    21. JR

      So you assign their face and you think of their face as they're playing?

    22. MC

      Yeah, yeah. Face, like number one, it's that position.

    23. JR

      Right.

    24. MC

      Um, yeah, and- and so on.

    25. JR

      And are you... What are you seeing in your mind when you're envisioning the- the table? When you're- when you're looking at the board, are you- are you- are you merely thinking of positions? Are you actually thinking of the pieces? Like, how are you breaking it down?

    26. MC

      No, I just see the chessboard in my head. Uh-

    27. JR

      Just see a completely-

    28. MC

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. JR

      ... like, 3D chessboard in your head?

    30. MC

      Yeah, so it's, um... And then when I'm playing a simul, I just really think about one at a time and I- I kind of store the others, um, away, and um...

  9. 38:00 – 44:41

    AI vs humans in games (Rubik’s Cube) and Magnus’s relationship with video games

    1. JR

      Have you seen they used a computer with AI to do a Rubik's Cube in less than a second? No, I didn't see that.

    2. MC

      Oh, wow.

    3. JR

      Yeah. See if you can find it, Jamie. It's crazy. It just goes brr and just spins it. I've never figured that shit out. That's crazy to me. It's a, there's a, um, a sequence of moves. If you follow a sequence of moves, you can actually get it to do it automatically. Huh. Yeah. Someone explained it to me once and they did it and I was like, "What?" I don't remember what it was 'cause I don't give a fuck. Yeah. It was just like, eight, eight times this way, eight times that way, eight times this side, and you just keep doing it and then eventually it'll be all flattened out a certain point in time. Wow.

    4. MC

      Yeah.

    5. JR

      You can do-

    6. MC

      But this computer does it like (snaps fingers) .

    7. JR

      You do Rubik's Cube too?

    8. MC

      No, no, no, no. I am, I'm talking out of my ass. Like, I ... (laughs)

    9. JR

      (laughs) I think the world record is only, like, three seconds or something. Like, it's- (laughs)

    10. MC

      (laughs) It's something absolutely insane. Um-

    11. JR

      Imagine the time you could have spent building a business-

    12. MC

      (laughs) Yeah.

    13. JR

      ... raising a family. (laughs) Doing, doing (laughs) like you're the fucking world record r- Rubik's Cube guy. All the same color. (laughs) Yes.

    14. MC

      It's so dumb.

    15. JR

      Green, red. So dumb.

    16. MC

      Yeah. Well, we, we all have to spend our time with something, right?

    17. JR

      Here it is. Watch this, watch this computer do it.

    18. MC

      Wow.

    19. JR

      How crazy is that? Ready, wait, go. Brr. Yeah, less than a second.

    20. MC

      Wow.

    21. JR

      That's crazy. Show it again in real time. So, give up, kids. Give up. (laughs)

    22. MC

      (laughs)

    23. JR

      Give up. The computer figured it out. That's pro- ... That's a dumb game. But do you play other games as well?

    24. MC

      No, not that m- not that much. Um, my parents sort of brainwashed me when, when I was young into thinking that computer games are no fun. And-

    25. JR

      Really?

    26. MC

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah, um, we-

    27. JR

      But you're a grown man now. You've realized that's a lie.

    28. MC

      Yeah. Yeah. I, I have, but it's still-

    29. JR

      I can see you Call of Duty fucking people up with headphones on. (laughs)

    30. MC

      No, the thing is, like ... (laughs)

  10. 44:41 – 50:49

    Golf as a new obsession and the mental-health argument for ‘touch grass’ hobbies

    1. JR

      Yeah, I, I think, I mean, this is why I've avoided golf, and, like, Tony's big on golf and so is Jamie. It's like, I see what it is. I'm sure I would love it, but I don't have that time, the time during the day.

    2. MC

      Well, I can tell you that I always thought ... Well, I, I wouldn't say that, but I, I always thought that I would get into golf later in life, and then I decided more or less a year ago that I was gonna start, and now I am obsessed, and it's all I want to do. (laughs) So-

    3. JR

      Yeah.

    4. MC

      ... I can, I can, I can-

    5. JR

      See, that's the problem.

    6. MC

      ... 100%, I can 100% relate, but my wife knows that I'm so happy when I come back from golf that it's, like, better if I get to do it, uh-

    7. JR

      Mmm.

    8. MC

      ... quite often.

    9. JR

      Yeah. Even as you fake being happy so you can keep doing it. (laughs)

    10. NA

      (laughs)

    11. MC

      No, no, no. Like, s- s- ... Yeah, um-

    12. JR

      They say that's ruining Canelo Alvarez, you know? There's been a lot of criticism in the boxing world, and particularly, in like, you know, some of his promoters and things along those lines where they've criticized his, his ... He's obsessive. He plays every day, even when he's in camp.

    13. NA

      Yeah, it's a tricky thing. If they do that with him, and I s- I s- obviously see them do it with Trump, but they're ... To ... Uh, you have to golf to understand what golfing does to you. It appears from the outside that people are drinking and smoking pot and having a good old time out there and giggling around, farting around with their friends, but the touch grass, meditative element, it truly is, like he was saying, like, I'm in such a crazy good mood after golf. Everybody at the comedy club can notice it. Like, it's like an upper ... It gives you a m- massive burst of energy. So like, the, the ... What am I thinking of? The, uh, you know, just the bad reputation that golf has-

    14. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. NA

      ... like I would want my president golfing a couple times a week knowing the effects that it gives you, a much clearer mind, a big burst of energy. You would think it would be exhausting walking around the woods or grass for four hours, but for some reason, it's totally the opposite. It's, it's ... Whether it's the sun, the grass, the this, the that, the differential going from a powerful thing to a mid-range thing to the delicate touch and accuracy of putting, these repetitive things, for some reason, it, it's a mind clearer and kind of an energy giver-

    16. JR

      Mmm.

    17. NA

      ... whereas video games and other things make you depressed. N- I don't ... You know, it's almost impossible to be down or depressed after golfing.

    18. JR

      Mmm. Well, it's, it's certainly a stimulating game, right? 'Cause you're ... It's hand-eye coordination, calculation, you know, managing the, the lay of the land, the way the rolls of the hills are-

    19. NA

      Yeah.

    20. JR

      ... and all those factors. I think, like, this is something that I think people genuinely need in life.

    21. NA

      Yeah.

    22. JR

      And I think it's one of the reasons why people respect chess so much, is because they know how difficult it is, and they know that all this is going on and that they see you two just staring at the board, looking at these pieces and, and calculating this insane number of possibilities that could emit from each individual move. It's like, that stimulation w- when, when someone gets good at a game, I think it's very valuable for you, and I think that can apply to all sorts of things in life. So I agree with you. I would want the president to play golf too.

    23. NA

      Yeah.

    24. JR

      I'd want him to find something, whatever it is. Find a thing that you can excel at other than just being the president.

    25. NA

      Yeah.

    26. MC

      Yeah, even if it was Call of Duty.

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. MC

      Like, if-

    29. JR

      That would be wild.

    30. MC

      If it m-

  11. 50:49 – 54:06

    Chess formats, time controls, and why ‘freestyle/Chess960’ fights engine-era preparation

    1. MC

      Yeah, it, uh, we're very lucky that, uh, it has this unique position, whether that's deserved, um, I don't know, but there's just something about the fact that it's, you know, it's a very, very simple game, um, but it's, it's still so infinitely, uh, difficult. The thing now, the thing now though is that we're trying to actually make it a bit more, more difficult for, uh, a classical form of, of chess, um, because now computers are so strong. Preparation has gone so far that the thought of, like, sitting down at the board and just thinking on your own from the very get-go, it's not, it's not there anymore. Anybody who's really good at chess, like, they, um... Anybody can, can learn the best openings, like, very quickly, even if you go, like, 10, 20 years ago. Um, you could play, um, you, you could play, for instance, in the Chess Olympiad, which is, which is the, which is the, the biggest team, like, nation tournament in the world. And you could play against, um, the best player from, from, let's say, Colombia, and, you know, y- you would know that they have certain skills, but they might not have the same set of openings, right? Now, all of these, like, there are kids everywhere, um, and they just, like, they know their stuff so well. So now we're, like, testing out new formats, uh, one that we call freestyle, which is basically there are 960 starting, possible starting positions if you shuffle the pieces on the first rank. And basically, like, you start out, you just draw the position 10 minutes before the game, no preparation whatsoever, and you basically start with, like, in gaming, a new map every single game. Um, so that's sort of for the traditionalists. That's not, like, the same, the same game, so, like, there are some people who don't like it, but for the professionals, it's an, it's a chance, like, to, um, to use, um, to, to use their, their skills because otherwise chess is moving, like, it's become- becoming faster. Like, chess used to be, it used to be an art, science, everything. With the way things are now, it's, it's just very fast, and it's all games, sports, and so on. Like, I feel like with, with thinking from the very first move, you're bringing some of the other factors, um, back, uh, uh, as well.

    2. JR

      I th- what I think is really unique about today is that kids today who are coming up are not just studying from books and from coaching, but you can watch so many great games-

    3. MC

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      ... instantaneously anytime you want. This is what's so unique about today, and I think it applies to all sports. I think it applies to all games. Uh, I think it applies to almost... I think it applies to standup comedy as well.

    5. MC

      Yeah.

    6. JR

      So I think it's one of the reasons why the younger guys are so good. It's like you get to see very high-level stuff, which gets into your mind that this is how to play at a very early age, and you can become obs- obsessed and just absorb so much more.

  12. 54:06 – 1:05:24

    Training styles of modern prodigies: constant blitz grinders vs meticulous classical studiers

    1. MC

      Yeah, and, and you see there are such different approaches as well, even w- even with, uh, with the kids. Like, uh, I had a training camp, uh, a few years ago with, uh, with a k- kid called Alireza Firouzja from... Uh, he plays for France now, but he's from Iran originally. I think he was about 14 then, and my, my chess coaches had, like, recommended that we, um, that we bring him in because he said that this is the most talented kid out there. So we have this camp where typically everybody has their, their laptop, and there's a chess board in the middle where you sort of, um... An- and you sort of look at your own thing, and then some things together on the board, and you, you throw out i- ideas, mostly for, for openings, but also sometimes other little exercises and so on. And this kid, he would have his, have his laptop, where he would, um, where he would analyze a certain position, and then he would play games, like, for money on that same site at the same time so that he could buy clouds...... um, cloud engine times because, like, the very best engines, um, they're- they're stronger, like, if they're in the- the cloud than from your own, uh, than from your own, uh, laptop generally. So, he would buy time for- for that by playing games, like one-minute games on that server. He would play five-minute games on another server and he would analyze with us (laughs) on the board and he was th- still, like, following everything. Like, he had no problems whatsoever just being there. So, like, it's just, um... Yeah, that's- that's one way of doing it. Like, he basically became one of the best players in the world by just constantly playing chess all the time and mostly, like, really quick games. And then you have the current classical war champion from- from India, Gukesh, like, he doesn't play casual games at all. He just studies his ass off all the time. Um, and he's also, like, he's not good at- at- at rapid chess, he's not good at blitz, he's not good at other- other forms. Uh, but he has- he has made all his study- studies about, uh, classical chess, uh, he didn't even own, um, like, chess software on his computer before he was, like, 13.

    2. JR

      Wow.

    3. MC

      And he was a grandmaster-

    4. JR

      Wow.

    5. MC

      ... at that time. Um, but it's- it- it's interesting to see that there are such different ways, um, to develop even- even these days.

    6. JR

      I think, I just think it's fascinating human beings' capacity to excel at things and that you really only know when someone pushes it a little bit further, like this guy playing these- all these games simultaneously.

    7. MC

      (laughs) Yeah.

    8. JR

      You know what I mean? It's like-

    9. MC

      Yeah.

    10. JR

      ... when you- when- if everybody's doing it one way, if everybody's only playing, you know, a few games a day and hanging out, like, you'll probably all stay at the same level. But if you've got one fucking psychopath in the group that's online and is playing and is reading books and is d- e-... That guy's gonna pass everybody and then everybody else realizes, like, "Oh, that's possible. You- I could've gotten as good as him. I better really bear down."

    11. MC

      Yeah, because you- you could also see that in these guys' playing style. The guy who has been playing, like, constantly all the time from when he- he was little, he has fantastic instincts, especially with- with little time. He just knows where the pieces go. And, like, he's the only one of the kids who has that kind of feeling. Um, the Indian guy, on the other hand, th- from the way he studies, he's, like... During games, like, he's meticulous, he calculates. Like, he sees every position as a problem he has to solve more than, "Oh, what does my intuition tell me? Oh, I'll do, I'll do this." Uh, it's like for him it's more, "Well, this is possible, this is possible. Let me, like, try and, uh, see this all- all the way- all the way through." So, it's just... Yeah, it's- it's just very, very different and, um, they- they- they call it, like, the tortoise and the hare some-

    12. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    13. MC

      ... uh, sometimes. And then, uh, in certain situations, the tortoise will win, and other situations the- the hare will win.

    14. JR

      Right. So, in the... So there's different types of tournaments i- and there's some tournaments that have no time limit for y- for moves?

    15. MC

      Oh, the- the- there's always a time, there's always a time limit.

    16. JR

      What's a traditional time limit?

    17. MC

      Uh, what it used to be in- in chess was, um, you'd have two hours for 40 moves, then you would have an hour for the next 20 moves, and then half an hour for the rest of the game. So, a maximum of seven hours. Um, and, uh, that form is still- is still being played. Uh, and then you have faster forms of chess, which is blitz chess, which is usually five or s- or three minutes, and rapid chess, uh, which is, uh, somewhere from- from 10 to, uh, to- to 30, uh, minutes, yeah.

    18. JR

      Did you ever, before you were known, did you ever go to Washington Square Park and play those hustlers?

    19. MC

      (laughs) Uh, no, I actually went there in, um, 20- uh, 2010, but I think- I think some people recognized me back-

    20. JR

      (laughs)

    21. MC

      ... back then as well. I think it's a bit of a myth, though, um, how, uh, how good they are. Like-

    22. JR

      Right.

    23. MC

      ... they're- they're- they're, like, okay, but they're not, like-

    24. JR

      Your level.

    25. MC

      No, they're not grandmaster level.

    26. JR

      Oh, I see.

    27. MC

      There was one guy, though, I don't remember... I don't remember what was, um... Uh, what's the name of... Like, it's up by, um, you know, uh, Columbia University. There's a park up there where they're playing chess as well. There, I played against a guy, uh, who played, like, a very strange opening as well. Like, he put, like, just a couple pawns, one square forward, and then he started developing his pieces very slowly. So, at fir- at first I thought this guy has no idea what he- he's doing. Then it turned out, like, he actually had a system. So, after, like, 10, 15 moves, I was in a lot of trouble. Uh, and then l- and then, like, the game became super, uh, concrete and tactical and- and- and I- uh, and I won. Um, but it... Yeah, it struck me that this guy, like, had... It just... I think he just played in a park all his life, so he had developed a certain system-

    28. JR

      Wow.

    29. MC

      ... that was actually, like, kind of effective if you don't know what you're doing, uh, against him. So that was- that was kind of- kind of interesting. I- I'm like... He was fairly old, so I'm sure he'd played chess his whole life without ever learning any kind of opening theory or- or something like that. He just had... Yeah, he was doing his own thing.

    30. JR

      That's fascinating. Did- c- can you ever learn something from people that have an un- unorthodox approach like that?

  13. 1:05:24 – 1:11:56

    Preparation, nutrition, supplements, and how sleep affects precision

    1. JR

      When ... Now, you were saying mental energy. Is ... Do you ... You were talking about the spicy Chinese food incident, but do you, uh, normally have a, a method of, like, when you eat, vitamins you take. Is there certain things that you do to optimize your, your, your clarity?

    2. MC

      Yeah, like if, if I'm playing, if I'm playing an early, early afternoon game, for instance, like, it's starting at 1:00, I, I try to eat. Like, one big meal, uh, before that, which is generally, uh, like, a big omelet with some, some kind of salad. And, um ...

    3. JR

      But you eat pretty clean before a big ...

    4. MC

      Yeah, I usually, I usually do. Um, sometimes, like, after games, like, I will eat something, like even some desserts and so on. Uh, but before the games, I, I try and keep it, keep it fairly, fairly clean. And I actually learned that when I was, when I was little, like sometimes, like my parents, they were generally quite strict about sweets and so on, but sometimes I would eat sweets during tournament. Then, you know, my, um, my blood sugar would drop like crazy and I would start making, making mistakes. Um-

    5. JR

      Mmm.

    6. MC

      And so that's something that I, I learned quite quickly that I shouldn't do.

    7. JR

      Do you ever mess around with vitamins or nootropics or anything like that? Things, uh, nutrients that help memory?

    8. MC

      No, I, I think, um ... I, I think it's a little bit ab- about the way that I was, was raised. Like, I never take medicine unless I, I kind of have to. I don't really take supplements or, or, um, or, or anything like that. So, um, I probably, I, I probably should. Uh, like it's, it's not a bad idea. Um, like, my wife is half American. Like, she's completely different, like, she takes five ...... kinds of vitamins every, every single day. She's very meticulous about it, but yeah, I don't know. I've never, um-

    9. JR

      Just get her to make you up some little packets.

    10. MC

      (laughs) Yeah, maybe.

    11. JR

      I, I think it'd probably have an impact on you. I mean, it's e- extraordinary if you think about how good you are without it, like any little thing that could give you a very slight edge. And I think that vitamins for sure give you a slight edge, particularly, um, nootropics. There's a bunch of different vitamins that have been shown, uh, through clinical trials to improve cognitive performance, you know, um, theanine, there's, uh, uh, acetylcholine, a bunch of different things that enhance memory that are essentially just nutrients.

    12. MC

      What's the new thing that people are, are doing, like, uh, carotene or something like that?

    13. JR

      Ketamine?

    14. MC

      K- No, no, no. Not ketamine.

    15. JR

      (laughs)

    16. MC

      But, uh, no, no, no, it's not ketamine. Um, c- creatine?

    17. JR

      Creatine.

    18. MC

      Creatine.

    19. JR

      Creatine.

    20. MC

      Yeah.

    21. JR

      Yes.

    22. MC

      Oh, yeah.

    23. JR

      Creatine is, uh, was a-

    24. MC

      I-

    25. JR

      ... bodybuilding supplement that was almost akin to steroids in the 1990s. People would think it was cheating, and then they realized oh, it's just a component of food. But, uh, one of the things that c- creatine does that's very extraordinary is, um, it aids in performance when you're sleep-deprived. So, if you ever find yourself sleep-deprived and you have to do something where you have to use your mind, creatine is a fantastic supplement for that.

    26. MC

      Well, I mean, I woke up today and, like, I think my, my watch said it was that my sleep was, like I got 15, like I slept for five hours but I got 15 minutes of REM sleep, like it was really, really bad. So that's what I could've-

    27. JR

      Yeah.

    28. MC

      I coulda, I coulda used that, um ... (laughs) uh, because I was playing, uh, chess with my daughter earlier today, so I coulda, I coulda used that, but, um ...

    29. JR

      Yeah, creatine is something that-

    30. MC

      Yeah.

  14. 1:11:56 – 1:25:15

    Flow state, pressure management, and why Magnus avoids mental coaches

    1. JR

      So what i- what is the mindset? Like, if you're in a world championship game and you, it's l- down to these, like what, what is the state of mind like when you're in the middle of it?

    2. MC

      Honestly, when I'm at my best, I'm just like pure laser-focused and, um, I'm just calm and not thinking about anything other than-

    3. JR

      Just in the moment.

    4. MC

      Just in the moment, yeah.

    5. JR

      Just in the... The work is already done, you already know the game, so now it's just reacting and moving and calculating.

    6. MC

      Yeah, I mean, I, I had, um, I had a game in 20- last, uh, classical world championship I played in 2021 where, um, the first five games were drawn. Honestly, like, I could have probably been down at that point as well. Sixth game was a super, super long game. Um, almost eight hours. And I think for the last hour and a half, two hours, I was pretty short on time. But I remember like I was just so focused and so calm, and afterwards, I was just like, yeah, I could have kept going forever. Like, I was just there.

    7. JR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MC

      Um, and it was exactly what I needed. I ended up grinding out, grinding out a win, and, and in those classical games, like once you get a lead, like that is so big because it's so hard to win, actually win games at that, that level with that level of preparation. Um, so that was, that was really big. But yeah, that's the... I've only f- I- I've only had f- I feel like a few days where I feel like I'm just like completely in the moment. Usually, it's a bit more messy than that. But like when it happens, it's just, um, yeah, the best feeling.

    9. JR

      That's amazing that it's only been a few-... days where you've been fully-

    10. MC

      (laughs)

    11. JR

      ... in the moment?

    12. MC

      I'm rarely happy after I play. (laughs)

    13. JR

      (laughs)

    14. MC

      I'm, I'm, I'm happier now. Like, I'm... Honestly, like, my standards for myself, like, are a little bit lower. Have gone down a little bit the older I've gotten, um, because I sort of accept that I don't, I don't have... My brain is not as fast as it used to be, so I'm going to have occasional letdowns. So, my top level is, like, I think, as good as it's ever been or at least very, very close to. Um, but, like, the average level is, is just, it's just too hard when your brain is not that fast anymore. Uh, but, but, but, yeah, generally, I, um, I'm, I'm always thinking, "Well, yeah, I could have always done something better." Like, you always miss some things, but I always feel like, yeah, there are avoidable mistakes that I'm, I'm still making.

    15. JR

      So, this, uh, as you've gotten older, this lowering expectations, is that a recognition of the fact that being hard on yourself over minute details doesn't benefit you? And that you've just had a more healthy approach?

    16. MC

      Yeah, I think so. Um, uh, it, it just makes everything a bit, bit easier. Um, also, honestly, like, the randomizing opening choices has made, uh, has made things easier as, um, as well. Uh, everything just to, to sort of, yeah, lower the pressure a bit.

    17. JR

      Have you ever consulted a mental coach or, uh, you know, someone who, uh, w- works with people on mindsets to try to capture what is happening when you are in that complete total flow state of laser focusedness, and try to recreate that? Because there's a bunch of different mind coaches that will tell you for a bunch of different pursuits that... What you have to do is when you get to that state, whatever that state is, recognize that you're there and then try to m- get a map of the territory and try to will yourself back into that thing. But then there's another school of thought that says, "No, it just has to happen organically," and that you just have- you just need to be obsessed and focused and take care of yourself and meditate. And just when it comes, it's going to come, but it just- you have to accept that it's a gift and it's just not always gonna be there.

    18. MC

      Yeah, I'm definitely the- in the latter camp. Um, I've talked to people who have suggested mental coaches, like, plenty of, plenty of times, um, both in, in the past and, and more recently as well. I've just, like, always been worried that somebody's gonna mess something up in, in, in my head.

    19. JR

      Mm.

    20. MC

      Perhaps-

    21. JR

      Analysis by analysis.

    22. MC

      Yeah. That, that, that's really, that's really what it is for me. So, I feel... At some point, I'm, I'm just, like, more or less content with the way things, things are. That most days that I'm playing, I'm going to be fairly good. On some days, I'm going to be at my very best. The other days, I'm going to be very far from, from my best. And it's, it's sort of... Yeah, it's sort of the, the way it is. I, I, I'm much- definitely much more open to doing things to prevent me from having tho- those very worst days because that- those are the ones that really, um, that really hurt you. Especially now that we're playing a lot of faster tournaments, uh, where there are, where there are, um, knockouts. Where basically, like, if you have one bad day, you're, you're out and it doesn't matter. Um, like, back in the days with classical tournaments, like, you could, you could have a really bad day, uh, but then you can always bounce back. But nowadays, it's not, it's not that easy.

    23. JR

      Do you ever try to map out what are the factors that lead you to hit that state, that s- that flow state? Do you ever try to think about your day? Like, what did I do? What did I eat? How, how did I sleep? Did I avoid toxic people around me? Did I stay offline? Like, what did I do that allowed me to get to that spot?

    24. MC

      Um, yeah. I mean, doing everything sort of right before the game (laughs) definitely helps. Like getting, um, getting, getting good s- good sleep, like reading, reading a book instead of being on, on some sort of device before I go t- go to sleep. Um, then just focusing as little as possible on, on chess before, um, before the game, definitely, um-

    25. JR

      Really? Little as possible?

    26. MC

      Yeah. Um-

    27. JR

      'Cause you want it to be fresh in your mind? You want it to be in s- something exciting?

    28. MC

      Yeah, I just, I just wanna have, like, two or three ideas of what I'm, what I'm going to play and not... Like, m- I, I, I just don't wanna, like, use mental energy that I could have used on the game (laughs) -

    29. JR

      Right.

    30. MC

      ... be- before.

Episode duration: 2:17:37

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